Your parents should be very proud.

Who's parents should be very proud of what? (btw, read all the previous posts, but would still like some clarification)

Are you suggesting that Penn's answer regarding that many liars don't get caught is something that his parents would not be proud of?

.lets remember there are more important things for 99% of the population.

Like being slave workers for some greedy corporation like Monster or Mcdonalds?

Like being slave workers for some greedy corporation like Monster or Mcdonalds?


Gimme a break. People choose to work where they do for any number of reasons. Besides, most employment is "at-will" so one is free to quit any time one wants.

Your parents should be very proud.

They are! :D I gave them a house, about $1000 a month for living and travel anywhere they want. They live a very good retired life :D

Honestly, I think you misread what I typed. I never once said I agree with cheating and lying at all. Im simply saying it exists and people get away with it forever. Some think they all get caught at one point but that is just "Alice in wonderland stuff" and the reality is much harsher. Im just practicle about it.

I have also posted that Monster has not said anything illegal so this whole Moral BS stuff means nothing. If its not illegal its 100% okay even if some people get their little noise bent out of shape over the "morality" of it. "morality", this is business and in the business world "GREED IS KING!!"

Btw, I posted all the time recommending people dont buy monster products because they are way overpriced so its extremely ironic that Im on here pointing out that their marketing is legal....which has ZERO to do with my personal opinion about the company.

Like being slave workers for some greedy corporation like Monster or Mcdonalds?

lol, If they gave good stock options then that slave worker will be a very wealthy retired individual someday.

I will take being a "slave worker" for that life ;)

Like being slave workers for some greedy corporation like Monster or Mcdonalds?

Huh? There are people that work for both Monster AND McDonalds that make a LOT of money.

Everyone has to start somewhere. From there, in most circumstances, it is then up to the individual to make or break their financial future.

They are! :D I gave them a house, about $1000 a month for living and travel anywhere they want. They live a very good retired life :D
Bully for you. I'm unimpressed. You apparently are financially comfortable. Hope you're not incurring an income by a continual unethical practice of deception. ;)

Honestly, I think you misread what I typed. I never once said I agree with cheating and lying at all. Im simply saying it exists and people get away with it forever. Some think they all get caught at one point but that is just "Alice in wonderland stuff" and the reality is much harsher. Im just practicle about it.
Didn't misread. Correct, you never said you agree, but you do allow/condone this practice if it's done within the "legal" realm? Alice in Wonderland? C'mon... reality is that this is the attitude of most "Amercans" today. Lie, cheat, pilfer, steal, deceive, etc.... as long as it's legal and you don't get caught. It may be okay for a President(s) of the U.S. and I'm just being realistic, not "practicle".

I have also posted that Monster has not said anything illegal so this whole Moral BS stuff means nothing. If its not illegal its 100% okay even if some people get their little noise bent out of shape over the "morality" of it. "morality", this is business and in the business world "GREED IS KING!!"

As I alluded to above... we ALL should get our "noises" bent out of shape about these "moral" practices. You are correct, "GREED is king". I find it very sad that there are many that defend this type of deception and allow a corporation (or anyone) to profit by that type of marketing and price gouging to the uninformed consumer.

The solution is very simple... all they need to do is cut their prices. :D

Bully for you. I'm unimpressed. You apparently are financially comfortable.

I'm impressed. How many people are financially comfortable that don't do anything for anyone except themselves? Taking care of ones parents, if you can, in their retirement is to be commended.................period.



As I alluded to above... we ALL should get our "noises" bent out of shape about these "moral" practices. You are correct, "GREED is king". I find it very sad that there are many that defend this type of deception and allow a corporation (or anyone) to profit by that type of marketing and price gouging to the uninformed consumer.



Stating something as fact does NOT mean that anyone is condoning it, or for that matter, defending it.

Why not let penngray speak for himself? No need for you to "tag team" me. Thanks.

This discussion has nothing to do with the "merits" of financially supporting retired parents. We all (hopefully) support our parents and children in some fashion. I would expect morals and ethics would take precedence over boasting about financial status.

The fact is... IMO, you two are nit picking in regard to my statements.

You can watch it here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDw2ZSDzlMw

The reason i buy from Monoprice or Blue Jeans, Monster is a joke how they fool other people who can't think by themself.


:eek:

:D

Why not let penngray speak for himself? No need for you to "tag team" me. Thanks.

The fact is... IMO, you two are nit picking in regard to my statements.

Not nit picking at all. You keep stating that penngray seems to condone the way that Monster markets their products. You are wrong. I will state it again:

"Stating something as fact does NOT mean that anyone is condoning it, or for that matter, defending it."

I will say this. I have had more defective cables from Monster than I have from any other manufacturer.

/signed and QFT.
I bought a digital Y cable to plug my mp3 player in at work in 2003. it introduced lots of noise into the signal and broke last year. i also bought one of thier progressive scan cable sets the same year and they broke after only a few months.

Not nit picking at all. You keep stating that penngray seems to condone the way that Monster markets their products. You are wrong. I will state it again:

"Stating something as fact does NOT mean that anyone is condoning it, or for that matter, defending it."

I will state it again...
Let penngray speak for himself.

"Legally" they can use their type of marketing however they please, until someone calls them on the carpet. That day may never come. But, I hope a competitor takes up that task and "legally" makes them eat crow.

There are no "facts" in regard to this discussion. It is merely opinions and we are all entitled to present those opinions. There is no right or wrong, except when the judge/jury declares a verdict or one's conscience takes precedence.

There are no "facts" in regard to this discussion. It is merely opinions and we are all entitled to present those opinions. There is no right or wrong, except when the judge/jury declares a verdict or one's conscience takes precedence.

Huh? What in the hell does that mean? Of course there are facts in regards to this discussion.

And if anyone is stating a right or wrong here, it is you.

When you say that there is no right or wrong, except...............(when) one's conscience takes precedence, what does that mean?

And you also say that there is no right or wrong except when a judge/jury declares a verdict? What does that mean? A jury declared OJ innocent. Does that make OJ right or the jury wrong? Or neither?

I'm totally confused at what it is that you are saying here Rat.

You win...
And you aren't nit-picking? No mas senor. You owe me a joint.

Not trying to win. Just trying to figure out the truth in what it is that you are saying.

You win. You said I am wrong, therefore you are right. Obviously you feel as if you need to dissect every "opinion" I have and present a challenge. As far as I'm concerned, you have too much time on your hands and are not receptive to "discuss" an opposing view.

I don't want to spend my time continually dodging your verbal volleys.

... fire up and relax.

Its simple to prove, Monster can take a VERY BAD coax cable and then compare it vs their monster Coax cable. Look at all the Monster gimmicks in BB stores....10 feet monster speaker wire (12 gauge) vs 100 feet of 18 gauge no name wire, lol!! Monster component video vs no name COMPOSITE VIDEO, I love that one.

Well, wait a sec. Monster is well aware of most people to have the tendency to want to use the cable in the box supplied with gear. So, that is the comparison used in stores. It makes perfect sense if you think about it.

This is the key motivator behind every Monster display you see. It's a philosophy of grabbing consumers by the collar and telling them that their stuff is connected improperly. Increased perception of performance helps breed new enthusiasts and promotes the furthering of the industry. If people thought there was a cap to performance with given equipment (hook every video component you own regardless of level together with composite and indeed they will all look the same), the industry would have yet another hurdle to overcome. As if the internet isn't enough.

Monster spins its products as best it can to entice non-educated shoppers into buying their products. That is what marketing really is and there is NOTHING wrong with it. I come from the Buyer Beware, if someone is dumb to buy into the hype, they deserve to lose their money.

Actually, people are dumb enough to think that the spare tire wire in the box is good enough, so Monster thinks it's OK to hammer home the point that it isn't through over-emphasized demos. There's nothing wrong with saving consumers from themselves. Monster should be applauded for creating awareness of how to improve an existing system through correct/improved wiring. If you look beyond the obvious, you will see that their efforts are worth the dividends that are paid when consumers end up with a far better result than they probably would have had, left to their own devices.

Other cabling companies should pay Monster a cut of their profits, since they all benefit from this marketing and in-store training.

The rebuttles will be fun to read...

Other cabling companies should pay Monster a cut of their profits, since they all benefit from this marketing and in-store training.
I'm happy to pay for the education Monster provides so long as I get a credit back for all the miseducation Monster provides that we have to work so hard to correct. That could be quite a net revenue source for us.

How many times in a day is it possible to listen to a customer ask, "is this cable 120Hz compatible," or "will this cable support deep color," before one goes completely insane? We don't know, but it looks like we will have an opportunity to find out...the clock is ticking...thanks, Monster, for all that consumer "education."

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/index.htm)

Another thing to consider. Monster, as well as other in-store accessories (including warranties, delivery, installation, etc etc etc) are sold at very high profit margins, which ALLOW retailers to work on very small margins when it comes to TV's. If it wasn't for the sale of those high-margin items, you would be paying more for the equipment that you currently purchase.

That must be why they can afford to hire such a sterling sales staff.

Another thing to consider. Monster, as well as other in-store accessories (including warranties, delivery, installation, etc etc etc) are sold at very high profit margins, which ALLOW retailers to work on very small margins when it comes to TV's. If it wasn't for the sale of those high-margin items, you would be paying more for the equipment that you currently purchase.

I think there used to be a joke slogan along these lines--something like:

"We cheat the other guy and pass the savings along to you!"

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/index.htm)

I'm happy to pay for the education Monster provides so long as I get a credit back for all the miseducation Monster provides that we have to work so hard to correct. That could be quite a net revenue source for us.

You know as a cable vendor that the instinct most consumers have is that what is in the box MUST be good enough, or it wouldn't be there. All Monster does is take that cheese, and put it on display vs their products to see the folly of that line of thinking. Be happy that it works; it helps your bottom line.

How many times in a day is it possible to listen to a customer ask, "is this cable 120Hz compatible," or "will this cable support deep color," before one goes completely insane? We don't know, but it looks like we will have an opportunity to find out...the clock is ticking...thanks, Monster, for all that consumer "education."

lol I understand about the dumb questions, trust me.

Just say "yes" and move on with the sale.;) Monster isn't lying, and neither are you, since we all know that most HDMI cables will support both. Again, the fact that they market the obvious is usually only frustrating to those that they beat to the punch.

Mr. Schticker, I see that you recently changed your profile and it indicates that you are an A/V designer. Based on your insightful posts, you may be helpful for my project for a new home theater addition on my home.

I have requested that you contact me on other threads with no response. Could you please provide me with your credentials and some references? PM me if you don't feel comfortable posting on the main forum. Thanks!

I'm pretty sure BJ cables are cholesterol and trans fat free. Can Monster say the same?

The rebuttles will be fun to read...


Sorry been on a business trip and lost interest in any good rebuttle :D

The only thing I have to say is that I agree with some things like wanting lower Monster prices and disagree with other posts thinking I condone the whole "lying,cheating, stealing stuff"...all I keep saying is that the percentage that get caught is far less then any one thinks. It was simply a counter arguement to the couple of posts that think people who steal, cheat, etc get caught at some point, more get away with it then get caught....This is about probability that is it. I dont agree with stealing,cheating and so on.

In the end, I still post more times AGAINST monster products, etc then I do defending the legal issues of their marketing so please take that as a fact that I do not like monster very much at all.

I bought all Monster cable about 10 years ago. It was quite a bit cheaper back then and not nearly as hyped up. It was before all the THX certified BS and before Best Buy started carrying it. I lined my whole system with Monster and heard an improvement. This was way before monoprice and bluejeans. I was coming from using the cables provided by my components and got really tired of them shorting out all the time. I never understood that. They shorted out all the time and they never moved.....anyway, I was single and living at home and had the money to spend a little over $300 on all Monster cables video and audio. Their S-video cables sucked in reliability since the solider connections broke loose. The problem I still have with the analog cables is the massive death grip they have on my components inputs and outputs. I must use a slow twisting motion to connect or disconnect them to components to prevent damage. That sucks. However I have had the cables for a really long time and they have all been reliable as they have been installed and removed several times over the years as my location and components have changed with the exception of the s-video cables. I haven't had to buy a single cable in 10 years. However it is a new day and Monster has way more competition than it did then from companies that can provide what people need cheaper and just as good if not better. Monster's competition back then were cables that cost way more like 60 to 70 bucks for one 3ft cable for one channel. Like most companies that spent their beginnings being the only game in town and making lots of money, when competition comes along that is cheaper and just as good, that company will do and say what it takes to remain on the cutting edge to justify their premium prices and sell their product in any store that will sell it (BEST BUY).

So is Monster good stuff? Mostly I'd say. They have often been accused of way over building their cables to specs that people don't even need. Much like CAT 6 cables. Everyone is still using CAT 5 but BEST BUY carries all CAT 6 at a premium price. So point is that everything has evolved. Best Buy carries products that have tons of hype and cost too much money and Monster is one of them. I still use my Monster cables because I have no reason to replace them. If I had to replace any of them I would definitely not buy Monster.

lol I understand about the dumb questions, trust me.

Well, it's not that they're dumb questions. In fact, we have a lot of patience when it comes to people asking questions that might seem "dumb" to us--after all, most people don't spend all day every day working on audio/video interconnection, and very smart people have very basic questions. I have spent a good deal of time on the phone with a physics professor at an Ivy League university explaining hookups to him--I didn't think that his questions were "dumb" just because he didn't know what he needed to know to hook up his HT.

The problem here is that the questions are not simply dumb--they are nonsense, and these questions would not be asked if it were not for Monster Cable spreading nonsense. For example, Monster Cable puts little logos on its more costly HDMI cables to indicate compatibility with 120Hz displays, xvYCC color space, deep color, special audio formats, and so on. The implication--unstated, but of course very strong--is that their cheaper cables, which do not have these logos, are not compatible with those various formats, features and protocols. Now that the customer has been "primed" with the idea that some cables are and some cables are not compatible with these things, he goes out and looks for similar representations on competing products. When he doesn't find them, he calls up and asks these nonsense questions. The answer to these questions is not as straightforward as it might seem--it actually requires that we explain not just what the answer is but why, basically, the question is nonsense as framed.

So, what's the big deal, you might ask--why not just put a big list of formats, features and protocols in our product description and advertise that our cables are compatible with all of them? Well, we won't do it because we don't think that is an honest way to market the cable; it's like food producers who put "cholesterol free" on a bag of beans--literally true, but misleading because of what it suggests by way of comparison. It implies things about competing products that aren't true, and it opens us to the perception that we are spreading the same B.S. that they're spreading.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/index.htm)

Mr. Schticker, I see that you recently changed your profile and it indicates that you are an A/V designer. Based on your insightful posts, you may be helpful for my project for a new home theater addition on my home.

I have requested that you contact me on other threads with no response. Could you please provide me with your credentials and some references? PM me if you don't feel comfortable posting on the main forum. Thanks!

Why don't you try to stay on topic Jersey Boy.:rolleyes:

The problem here is that the questions are not simply dumb--they are nonsense, and these questions would not be asked if it were not for Monster Cable spreading nonsense. For example, Monster Cable puts little logos on its more costly HDMI cables to indicate compatibility with 120Hz displays, xvYCC color space, deep color, special audio formats, and so on. The implication--unstated, but of course very strong--is that their cheaper cables, which do not have these logos, are not compatible with those various formats, features and protocols. Now that the customer has been "primed" with the idea that some cables are and some cables are not compatible with these things, he goes out and looks for similar representations on competing products. When he doesn't find them, he calls up and asks these nonsense questions. The answer to these questions is not as straightforward as it might seem--it actually requires that we explain not just what the answer is but why, basically, the question is nonsense as framed.

Don't you wish you had though of it?:D Leaders in an industry tend to be the ones that dictate the flow of said industry.

So, what's the big deal, you might ask--why not just put a big list of formats, features and protocols in our product description and advertise that our cables are compatible with all of them? Well, we won't do it because we don't think that is an honest way to market the cable; it's like food producers who put "cholesterol free" on a bag of beans--literally true, but misleading because of what it suggests by way of comparison. It implies things about competing products that aren't true, and it opens us to the perception that we are spreading the same B.S. that they're spreading.

Actually with all of the confusion about this industry and emerging tech it isn't dishonest, it's a service. You may see it as the equivalent of putting the fact you have a driver's license on your resume, but the average consumer has no idea what many of these things mean. Monster markets the obvious, but those things are only obvious to a few. Monster markets to the masses, and part of their success is the peace of mind that is involved when a customer can look at the package and say "yes, this will work." You cannot penalize a kid in class because they raise their hand first.

A while back Kurt, I did find bottled water that was advertised as fat free.

A while back Kurt, I did find bottled water that was advertised as fat free.

:D

May as well mention healthy benefits if you bottle water, since their competitors are things like soda, beer, etc. See, makes sense!:p

Why don't you try to stay on topic Jersey Boy.:rolleyes:

Why don't you answer my requests for your credentials Mr. Misinterpreted?

Back in the late 90s about 98 I think. Our current monitor engineer was on tour with Al Jareu (sp). He was a system tech so he did no mixing. He was at the Hollywood Bowl and had a monster rep come by. He gave them some interconnect cables with the little arrows on them and said they should try them out.So they played some Nightfly to get a ref point. Then Dave went behind the mixing desk. He laid the cables in the back and said ok they are in the CD player path. FOH dude fired up some Nightfly and the monster guy said "wow can you hear how much clearer and clean that is?" Dave then said yes they must be incredible cables because they are not even hooked up and then held them up for all to see.


The monster rep was a little ticked and left a short time later.

Now I was not there, but I have known Dave for a lot of years and have never known him to lie.So I take the story as truth.

So I take the story as truth.

Definitely true...subjective suggestion is strong in the AV world. :D

On the other side of testing I have used cables in DBTs, switched them, etc posting results about how people couldnt tell the difference. Second test, we showed the cables, plug in the cheap set first let people listen then acted like we changed the cables to the more expensive brand but we didnt change anything. People said they could hear the difference, they said that they thought the 2nd set was better. :eek:

I think the A/V world is the one hobby where the placebo effect has a very strong influence. For some reason people can not eliminate the idea that $$$ predicts performance.

i wouldnt be surprised. the rep is a salesman...he was just doing his job. salesmen are not exactly the most honest people.

A while back Kurt, I did find bottled water that was advertised as fat free.I like the organic water.

I like the organic water.I prefer instant water (in a can) - "Just Add Water"!

Don't you wish you had though of it?

No.

Actually with all of the confusion about this industry and emerging tech it isn't dishonest, it's a service. You may see it as the equivalent of putting the fact you have a driver's license on your resume, but the average consumer has no idea what many of these things mean. Monster markets the obvious, but those things are only obvious to a few. Monster markets to the masses, and part of their success is the peace of mind that is involved when a customer can look at the package and say "yes, this will work." You cannot penalize a kid in class because they raise their hand first.

It would be a service if it were conveying true information to the customer. It is not conveying true information to the customer, and it is accordingly not a service to the customer. It is, instead, convincing the customer of a false proposition in order to up-sell him. The material representation is not "this cable will support 1080p," which is true; the intended message is "the other cable next to this cable on the shelf (whether ours or someone else's) will not support 1080p," which is not true. If the intended message were "this cable will support 1080p," then Monster Cable would put its little 1080p logo on all of its HDMI cables, not just the costlier ones. You will note, if you go to the store and examine the packages, that this is not what they do.

I spent a number of years in litigation work, and consequently I have a deep respect for the art of talking nonsense. Most litigation is a contest between somebody who is trying to tell the truth and somebody who is trying to spread nonsense, and every attorney winds up sometimes on the latter side and must make chicken salad out of -- well, something less than chicken salad. I have always been suitably impressed with the way in which a bad case can be well put, and even won.

It is one thing, however, to appreciate the art of B.S., and quite another to admire the practice of it. I do the former, not the latter. In my view it is bad to have disrespect for the customer; it is bad to treat the customer like an idiot. It is good to assume that the customer is capable of understanding the facts that it would be helpful for him to understand, and it is good to represent products to the customer in a candid and honest manner. That Monster Cable's obfuscations are artful and effective does not make them helpful to the customer; it does not make them accurate; and it does not make them right.

And I fully recognize that "right" in a moral sense and "right" in a business sense may be different things for some people. For me they are not. If I had to market through distortion, I would find another line of work.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/index.htm)

A while back Kurt, I did find bottled water that was advertised as fat free.

My favorite nonsense label, back when my wife ran a homebrew shop in Philadelphia (still there, under new management since 1991--Home Sweet Homebrew, on Sansom Street), was Joe Ortlieb's Oat Bran Beer. No cholesterol!

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/index.htm)

My favorite nonsense label................ No cholesterol!Hell, this one is everywhere, now, on countless vegetable-based products.

I seem to recall that FDA was actually considering rules a few years ago to prohibit the no-cholesterol label on products which were not either (1) of a sort that would ordinarily contain cholesterol, or (2) substitutes for such products. I'm not sure what happened to that.

The Ortlieb's beer struck me as a particularly funny one because beer not only is a vegetable product, but also has essentially no lipid content at all--trace hop oils and that sort of thing are all there is. If one were going to make a cholesterol-related health claim, the relevant one to make for an alcoholic beverage would have been that moderate consumption of alcohol reduces the fatty deposits on blood vessel walls which cause atherosclerosis--that's actually true, but of course it does not matter whether your beer is "oat bran" beer or not.

The other amusing note with the oat bran was, of course, that because oat bran is fiber, it doesn't wind up in the beer, either. Cellulose in the mash grains winds up being strained out of the wort at the lautering stage. I suppose it's always possible that oat bran could impart some flavor to the beer, but if it did it'd probably be something nasty and tannic.

By the way, our cables are all cholesterol-free and non-alcoholic. A few of them do contain some cellulose in the filler, though I am not sure I would call them high-fiber, and I wouldn't eat them.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/index.htm)

I seem to recall that FDA was actually considering rules a few years ago to prohibit the no-cholesterol label on products which were not either (1) of a sort that would ordinarily contain cholesterol, or (2) substitutes for such products. I'm not sure what happened to that.I don't know, but it certainly never happened. Just look around. Almost everything I have in the pantry that is not animal-based says that. A jar of peanut butter is full of fat, but it says "no cholesterol". LOL.

According to Webster's Online...

Monster
Noun
1. An imaginary creature usually having various human and animal parts.

2. Someone or something that is abnormally large and powerful.

3. A person or animal that is markedly unusual or deformed.

4. A cruel wicked and inhuman person.

5. (medicine) a grossly malformed and usually nonviable fetus.


Date "monster" was first used in popular English literature: sometime before 1010.

Anybody see Noel Lee on Donny Deutsch's show the other night on CNBC?

No.

sure

It would be a service if it were conveying true information to the customer. It is not conveying true information to the customer, and it is accordingly not a service to the customer. It is, instead, convincing the customer of a false proposition in order to up-sell him. The material representation is not "this cable will support 1080p," which is true; the intended message is "the other cable next to this cable on the shelf (whether ours or someone else's) will not support 1080p," which is not true. If the intended message were "this cable will support 1080p," then Monster Cable would put its little 1080p logo on all of its HDMI cables, not just the costlier ones. You will note, if you go to the store and examine the packages, that this is not what they do.

The proposition (note this is fact, not assumed--one of the benefits of having someone here that actually KNOWS what Monster's packaging is designed to do) is that the cable adjacent to the labeled one might support 1080p, and that the labeled one will for certain. It isn't as absolute as you make it sound. Additionally, if all lengths of a certain series of cable cannot perform a task equally, there will be no label on any of them. This is applied to every claim on every type of cable they produce.

BTW - It is supposed that people "know" what a certain cable will do in certain situations and what it will not do. Everyone knows better than the manufacturer around here :rolleyes:

Part of this also is for the very same reason you dress "nicer" during business meetings, interviews, or any other circumstance in which you have more to gain/lose. Flashier, more upscale packaging is simply there to make a product look nicer. More pedestrian packaging is there to defocus that, and to draw attention towards the nicer product. Why does this have to be explained? This is simple marketing.

I spent a number of years in litigation work, and consequently I have a deep respect for the art of talking nonsense. Most litigation is a contest between somebody who is trying to tell the truth and somebody who is trying to spread nonsense, and every attorney winds up sometimes on the latter side and must make chicken salad out of -- well, something less than chicken salad. I have always been suitably impressed with the way in which a bad case can be well put, and even won.

There are no rules being broken here. And, there are certainly no practices here that Monster follows that every other cable company on the planet does not. Does that make it right? Maybe not, but it does make it essential to compete.

It is one thing, however, to appreciate the art of B.S., and quite another to admire the practice of it. I do the former, not the latter. In my view it is bad to have disrespect for the customer; it is bad to treat the customer like an idiot.

Most customers do not have time to research every inane part of this industry. That's our job. As an attorney, you know full well that time is money, and many will pay to have a reputed company tell them something will work as opposed to questioning everything. For many, this is actually a hobby, not something to be stressed over. Monster has been very successful doing this and, unlike Bose, actually makes products that perform well.

It is good to assume that the customer is capable of understanding the facts that it would be helpful for him to understand, and it is good to represent products to the customer in a candid and honest manner. That Monster Cable's obfuscations are artful and effective does not make them helpful to the customer; it does not make them accurate; and it does not make them right.

It's an obfuscation if you already have a bone to pick with them. To the millions that purchase their products, the information is helpful. Many people think that simplicity is worth money, as is expertise and time.

And I fully recognize that "right" in a moral sense and "right" in a business sense may be different things for some people. For me they are not. If I had to market through distortion, I would find another line of work.

Nor are they for me. My issue is that Monster has a difficult time getting a fair shake on their products due to external issues that have nothing to do with their performance. That is really all that is relevant. The presence of cheaper options or slick marketing does not replace the fact that their stuff performs and is backed well.

So I guess none of you have tried beer on your Cheerios instead of milk? :D

My issue is that Monster has a difficult time getting a fair shake on their products due to external issues that have nothing to do with their performance.

ROTFL, price gouging unsuspecting customers is now an "external" issue :confused: Besides doing a Price/Performance determination, how would you determine a "good" buy?

Don't you understand, those "unsuspecting customers" should be down on their hands and knees THANKING Monster for educating them and saving them from themselves. :rolleyes:

ROTFL, price gouging unsuspecting customers is now an "external" issue :confused: Besides doing a Price/Performance determination, how would you determine a "good" buy?

Compare Monster's pricing to their competition; Tributaries, AudioQuest, MIT, etc. They are not out of line with other companies competing for the same dollar.

My issue is that Monster has a difficult time getting a fair shake on their products due to external issues that have nothing to do with their performance.

LOL!!!
Poor Mon$ter!! If they want a "fair shake" all they need to do if stop price gouging.

Good products... overpriced.

IMO, your big issue is that you and/or your A/V firm make a "bundle" on using/pushing Mon$ter products via markups/kickbacks.

Anyone with reading ability would know these things. But, someone with a degree in PR would take a different angle, perhaps merely for profit. ;)

(That's if you really are/were and A/V designer/installer).
Any progress in the info I requested from you in regard to your credentials and customer references? :confused:

LOL!!!
Poor Mon$ter!! If they want a "fair shake" all they need to do if stop price gouging.

Good products... overpriced.

Overpriced is inherently subjective.

IMO, your big issue is that you and/or your A/V firm make a "bundle" on using/pushing Mon$ter products via markups/kickbacks.

No, actually we don't. I don't have to go to Alaska to know it's cold either.

Anyone with reading ability would know these things.

That explains your problem.

But, someone with a degree in PR would take a different angle, perhaps merely for profit. ;)

That's what a lack of education would lead you to believe. But to answer your question, that "angle" would be to look at the issue from a different perspective, and not jump on the Monster Hater bandwagon without full information. Clearly you lack the objectivity to do that.

(That's if you really are/were and A/V designer/installer).
Any progress in the info I requested from you in regard to your credentials and customer references? :confused:

Any progress on you staying on-topic and growing up?

Someone said in a thread just the other day:
No argument against Monster Cable - they make a well-built/performing product, they have a fabulous marketing/advertising machine, and they are highly successful. Sure, informed enthusiasts will purchase similarly good performing products for less $$ elsewhere, but at least the Monster stuff is decent (but expensive). If the Monster products were poor performers and overpriced, then that would be grounds for bashing. :)
LINK (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14066611#post14066611)

Any progress on you staying on-topic and growing up?

Haha... c'mon.

Show me your cards. You have a lot to say, but nothing to back it up. :rolleyes:

Where'd the OP go, anyway? :D

So I guess none of you have tried beer on your Cheerios instead of milk? :D

Man cannot live on beer alone. Trying to brush your teeth with beer instead leads to noncompliance :D

Haha... c'mon.

Show me your cards. You have a lot to say, but nothing to back it up. :rolleyes:

Presenting credentials to you and your cohorts is like submitting a job application to McDonalds. Gee, I hope they want me!:rolleyes:

Yeah okay...
Typical BS. Everyone is always wrong and you're always right. But, you NEVER back up your rhetoric. I guess we should all just have faith that you are the A/V messiah?

If you're so darned smart and good at your profession, why are you so reluctant to convey your credentials/references?

You always have an excuse. Are you OJ Simpson?

If you can't back any of your claims of "experience" and refuse to do so... then your opinions are just as worthless as the rest of the "lemmings" (as you would proclaim).

You have shown your cards and IMO, you should have folded long ago. You do nothing more than disrupt any discussion(s).

Compare Monster's pricing to their competition; Tributaries, AudioQuest, MIT, etc. They are not out of line with other companies competing for the same dollar.

I'll refrain from commenting on what I think is the price/performance ratio of those other brands, but just because Monster's pricing pales in comparison to some of those other products doesn't make an iota of difference whether they are overpriced compared to similar performing products.

And you're probably wrong about competing for the same dollar. I'm guessing that no self respecting owner of $1K+ cables would consider monster cables.

To actually get on topic, I know I'll never buy Monster cables with RCA connectors again. I have tried more than one Monster component video cable that the shield prongs were so loose that the cable literally fell out of the female on the equipment. On many other brands of connectors if that happens I usually just squeeze the outer part in slightly with a pair of pliers. You can't do that with Monster connectors, which appear to be made of (cheap) diecast metal. Diecast metal is brittle. When I tried, the prongs broke off making the connector useless.

I have tried more than one Monster component video cable that the shield prongs were so loose that the cable literally fell out of the female on the equipment.

That's strange. Most complain that the connectors are too tight and in instances, have literally damaged the hardware.

Is it possible that your experience was that the cables were never fully seated and that's why they "fell out"?

You do nothing more than disrupt any discussion(s).

BS. I show the other side of the coin--the business side to the equation that some of you neglect to look at. Monster is successful not because they're lawsuit-happy snake-oil peddlers. If that were true, they would have been shut down long ago. Fact is, they provide a high-quality stuff at prices that are in the range of their competitors.

It isn't "disrupting discussion" to disagree with five or six bandwaggoneers. If being disruptive means yanking your head out of Monoprice's butt, then guilty I suppose.

Smart people evaluate both sides of a debate. Learn to try and follow suit.

I'll refrain from commenting on what I think is the price/performance ratio of those other brands, but just because Monster's pricing pales in comparison to some of those other products doesn't make an iota of difference whether they are overpriced compared to similar performing products.

And you're probably wrong about competing for the same dollar. I'm guessing that no self respecting owner of $1K+ cables would consider monster cables.

All of those brands have wide price ranges just like Monster. Although I will agree with that last statement for the most part.

Is it possible that your experience was that the cables were never fully seated and that's why they "fell out"?No, they were on as far as possible. I am using another brand cables with no problems.

Smart people evaluate both sides of a debate. Learn to try and follow suit.

Ding ding ding! The irony police have another victim! What exactly have you evaluated about "the other side" of the debate?

This from the guy who is utterly dismissive of everyone else, thinks he's the only smart person on this whole forum, is wallowing in a sea of logical fallacies, and continuously insults people who expose that flawed logic. Gee whiz, perhaps you should take some lessons in logical discourse before you assail your ability to evaluate both sides of a debate. Nice try though.

BS. I show the other side of the coin--the business side to the equation that some of you neglect to look at. .


BS back at ya...
The crux of the matter is you only show the business side and not the technical/practical side. Quite typical of those out to make a quick buck at the expense of the uninformed consumer. Just like B&M sales personnel.

How are those business credentials/references coming along? Still waiting...

Do you work for a B&M retailer... like Best Buy/Magnolia?

BS. I show the other side of the coin--the business side to the equation that some of you neglect to look at.

Smart people evaluate both sides of a debate. Learn to try and follow suit.

Ding ding ding! The irony police have another victim! What exactly have you evaluated about "the other side" of the debate?BS back at ya...
The crux of the matter is you only show the business side and not the technical/practical side.Ya'll shut up. :D

Both sides have been presented ad nauseum throughout the thread and I suspect that everyone has reasonably considered both sides. You're all smart people. But people DO choose which side of the fence they stand on. No one is going to change anyone's mind, here. Just chalk it up to someone having a different opinion than you and move on.

Sure... as soon as Schticker presents his background/credentials/references. The OP's question was answered over 200 posts ago. Apparently... some have an obsession with defending Mon$ter, not just an opinion.

Thanks for trying to moderate. ;)

I can't believe this is still going on...

The thread should be closed.

Apparently... some have an obsession with defending Mon$ter............So? And...... apparently.......... others have an obsession with attacking Mon$ter.

You and Schticker can defend to your heart's desire. Mon$ter is overpriced and overhyped.

It may seem like I attack Mon$ter, but I really focus on those that state what they profess as "fact" based on their experience and/or qualifications without any credentials to back their claim(s). Also... those that obsess that Monoprice is pure crap. Same difference IMO. Money talks... BS walks.

Money talks... BS walks.

Exactly my point, and yet you persist.

As do you. When are you sending me your info?

Here's how you stop "price gouging" by any manufacturer in any industry. Don't buy the product. Here's another way...become the CEO of the company and change their pricing model.

As long as the product meets the electrical requirements of the application, the wire is good. If it doesn't, it is not good. If "price" is the issue, then find wires that meet the requirements and purchase the lowest price item.

Here's how you stop "price gouging" by any manufacturer in any industry. Don't buy the product.


And this is the conundrum. Although other posters have criticized the "general consumer" for not being informed or "doing their homework", how does anyone condone preying on novices (any age) making an A/V cable purchase as an acceptable marketing technique?

And this is the conundrum. Although other posters have criticized the "general consumer" for not being informed or "doing their homework", how does anyone condone preying on novices (any age) making an A/V cable purchase as an acceptable marketing technique?The general consumer (and often even the informed consumer) doesn't have much of a choice, unless they live in a major metropolitan area. B&M stores like Best Buy and Circuit City only carry one or two brands of cables. Often Monster is the only option for certain cables.

So what is one to do if one needs a cable today? Many people still won't buy from internet retailers so they are at the mercy of the local store(s), who have no incentive to sell more economical alternatives since their markup on Monster cables and the like helps offset thin margins on the equipment.

And this is the conundrum. Although other posters have criticized the "general consumer" for not being informed or "doing their homework", how does anyone condone preying on novices (any age) making an A/V cable purchase as an acceptable marketing technique?

The onus is on the consumer to become educated. Monster markets themselves through education. They make it easier to purchase the right cable out of their lineup. That said, if the consumer chooses to dig through the morass that is the internet and HOPE they find the right answers, more power to them.

Accusing a company of being predatory because consumers will not do their own legwork is something Senator Kennedy might approve of, but it's a silly proposition.

...how to stop predatory pricing...

1. move to a country (or planet) where it doesn't happen
2. educate yourself (if it's important)
3. If you want to educate everyone on your own, start a school
4. remove "free market economy" from your lifestyle
5. become CEO of all the companies you feel are predatory
6. become a Federal Attorney, define predatory, and sue everyone (which will raise prices on everything).

...oh, and be certain you're not a stockholder of any of these companies...you wouldn't want to retire on income from companies which make too many profits. Also, remember, if you reduce corporate profits, you reduce tax revenue. You reduce tax revenue and you might have to pay to take care of yourself, have the trash hauled away, and supply your own water.

7. Start a company called Monopric* cable or Better Cabl*** and sell over the internet. Advertise on a big AV forum. Let the free-market work its magic over time.

haha...

God Bless Mon$ter. Thank goodness they don't sell oil. They would have a hard time marketing their oil through "education".

Waiting for your background info Mr. Schticker. ;)

So what is one to do if one needs a cable today? Many people still won't buy from internet retailers so they are at the mercy of the local store(s), who have no incentive to sell more economical alternatives since their markup on Monster cables and the like helps offset thin margins on the equipment.

And that makes my point...
The "uneducated" consumer makes a $2000 investment and is redirected (misdirected?) to buy a Mon$ter cable in the B&M store. You bet... they want to watch or listen to their their A/V gear today.

Let's assume that many don't read A/V forums and rely on that "A/V Designer" in a B&M store to be helpful. So, when the sales personnel give a BS line about the "quality" of Mon$ter over brand X and they spend $500 just on a few cables, thats okay?

I agree that they may lower prices on the actual hardware with the intention of selling overpriced cable to offset the "loss". IMO, do that with the "extended warranty".

The B&M stores sell AR cables too. At 1/2 the price and a 30 day return policy why don't they "push" those cables and let the consumer/customer decide?

And that makes my point...
The "uneducated" consumer makes a $2000 investment and is redirected (misdirected?) to buy a Mon$ter cable in the B&M store. You bet... they want to watch or listen to their their A/V gear today.

Let's assume that many don't read A/V forums and rely on that "A/V Designer" in a B&M store to be helpful. So, when the sales personnel give a BS line about the "quality" of Mon$ter over brand X and they spend $500 just on a few cables, thats okay?

I agree that they may lower prices on the actual hardware with the intention of selling overpriced cable to offset the "loss". IMO, do that with the "extended warranty".

The B&M stores sell AR cables too. At 1/2 the price and a 30 day return policy why don't they "push" those cables and let the consumer/customer decide?

Actually, I know of some installers who buy from monoprice and sell under Monster and still make a great margin since Mono is cheaper than dealer cost on Monster.

The B&M stores sell AR cables too. At 1/2 the price and a 30 day return policy why don't they "push" those cables and let the consumer/customer decide?Not really. Many B&M stores have dropped AR. In many areas of the country, the only retailer choices may be BB, CC and Radio Shack. Of the three, only Radio Shack has reasonably priced cables.

Take basic HDMI cables, for instance:
BB sells Monster, Dynex and Rocketfish. 3' to 4' from either brand are $50 to $65.
CC sells Monster, Sony and Nexxtech. 3' to 5' from either brand are $45 to $60.
RS sells their own (cheapest at $30 to $40) plus Monster, Cables to go and Belkin, all of which except Monster need to be special ordered. The Monster and Belkin are comparable in price (or higher) to BB and CC and the Cables to go are oddly priced - $80 to $100 for 6' to 9', $40 for 16'.

Basically there are few, if any, choices at most B&M stores. That is because small parts have huge markups and contribute a substantial percentage of stores' profits. They have no incentive to carry less expensive brands because their profit margins would be squeezed. Even Fry's is hit or miss on inexpensive cables; they often have spaces for them but no stock (I wonder why? :rolleyes:).

For most people the choices are: pay a lot more than the cables are worth or pay a very lot more than the cables are worth. This is especially true if you analyze the cost to produce them, which is a very small fraction of their retail price.

Actually, I know of some installers who buy from monoprice and sell under Monster and still make a great margin since Mono is cheaper than dealer cost on Monster.

Can you clarify? Are saying you know of "installers" that use Monoprice cables/wires and deceive the customer that thinks they are getting Mon$ter products?

or... the installer does what the customers desires technically and/or financially and both benefit without deceptive marketing practices.

Anything wrong with Monster Cable from a technical perspective?
no

With all due respect... that was stated in post #2. ;)

300 posts later... and the beat goes on.

The "uneducated" consumer makes a $2000 investment and is redirected (misdirected?) to buy a Mon$ter cable in the B&M store. You bet... they want to watch or listen to their their A/V gear today.

Let's assume that many don't read A/V forums and rely on that "A/V Designer" in a B&M store to be helpful. So, when the sales personnel give a BS line about the "quality" of Mon$ter over brand X and they spend $500 just on a few cables, thats okay?

The answer to "thats okay?" is YES, its okay. They have not lied about anything, exageration (ie...BEST sound) is not telling a lie. Its purely subjective which is truely meaningless.

If someone doesnt want to do the research on spending $X, if someone is foolish enough to BELIEVE any employee making minimum wage at a B&M then maybe they are just a fool themselves. People make silly mistakes all the time and buy things that are useless or extremely overpriced. Look at the billion dollar weight loss market ;)

If I could come up with a product and I convinced people it was better then all other competitor products, Im going to do it. We have to sell everything in this world and making HUGE amounts of money is a good thing! Most things are NOT better then competitor products the ONLY difference is how they are marketed.

You have yet to post anything that proves Monster has done anything illegal. BSing people into believing your product is the best by just using great words isnt illegal its what marketing is all about. Now if they post data, hard science then we can go after it!

You say the beat goes on too but you seem to disagree with how marketing works and you disagree that greed is good :eek:

Illegal? No.
Deceptive? Yes (IMO)
And... I do disagree that "greed is good".

They won't publish ANY data. That's an admission of deception.

True, there are hundreds (thousands?) of companies that use 'glossy' (verbal and printed) marketing campaigns to deceive the masses for quick profit. Just because "everyone else does it", shouldn't make it an acceptable practice.

The difference with Mon$ter cables is that the cost to the consumer is much larger than buying a Big Mac and complaining that it doesn't look the same as it does on TV. Or... buying a bottle of Clorox bleach and find that it's no different than a generic brand. At least the consumer is only out a few bucks and then can decide based on first hand experience wheter to eat another Big Mac or use Clorox bleach.

With cables, it's not like the general public buys TV's and A/V systems every week. Once the sale is made... they "think" they have the best cables in the world.

I find it ironic that those participating in this thread condone Mon$ter's marketing practices, but if we were discussing Bose, there would probably be no disagreement.

I find it ironic that those participating in this thread condone Mon$ter's marketing practices, but if we were discussing Bose, there would probably be no disagreement.

Not true, the same will be said about BOSE, they can market all they want and I dont think its illegal. The bigger difference is that BOSE stuff is actually really crappy while Monster does build quality products that are priced way, way to high.


They won't publish ANY data. That's an admission of deception.

Simply your opinion, dont you realize that? You have zero legal, zero scientific backing in this opinion too. Thats a losing position in a debate...


True, there are hundreds (thousands?) of companies that use 'glossy' (verbal and printed) marketing campaigns to deceive the masses for quick profit. Just because "everyone else does it", shouldn't make it an acceptable practice.

What marketing campaign doesnt use tatics to deceive the public in someway? Please name one?

You know that most products are very similar so the only way to differentiate yourself is too market BS to people to convince them to buy your product instead of mine.

You really think products are that different that they sell on their own? That is laughable, 99% of all marketing is done to BS the potential consumer to convince them that your product is better even though realistically it isnt.

To me its the consumer that actually believes the BS thats at fault here and not the company peddling it. Buyer Beware!

How about we force everyone to become more educated? What a novel idea :D That is the true solution!! Then none of these companies will be able to BS anyone and they logical will lower their prices or go bankrupt.

I guess we continue to beat this to death because in the end you simply think people should stay dumb and never learn to protect themselves.

Once the sale is made... they "think" they have the best cables in the world.


Why do you care what they think? People think $7K speaker wire makes their system sound better do you go after those companies too? I think Monster is tame compared to that BS, $100K speakers? $20K amps? 15K speaker wires? little upside down "flower pots" to keep the wire off the floor, Power conditioners......you name it the HUGE BS is out there.

C'mon...
Anyone that spends $7K on speaker wire already knows what they desire and are probably positioned financially to go to that expense. Same with speakers, amps, or all the other "bells and whistles". Anyone that goes to that expense would turn their nose up at any Mon$ter product.

What "I think" is that Mon$ter takes advantage of J6P, grannie and pop-pop, and anyone that doesn't have a clue about electronics.

Many just want a surround sound system and/or an HDTV. The B&M saleperson says... "you're going to need some cables/wires too" and leads them to the Mon$ter products. If the customer sees a cable or wire that's less expensive and asks why they need to pay more for a Mon$ter cable, they are promptly given a line of 'horse crap' that Mon$ter is a better cable and can/will provide better sound/picture, spouts off technical BS and the when the customer has that "deer in the headlights" look.... the sale is made. Win/win for the greedy. $100's out of grandmom's purse.

Anything wrong with Monster Cable from a technical perspective?noWith all due respect... that was stated in post #2. ;)exactly

What "I think" is that Mon$ter takes advantage of J6P, grannie and pop-pop, and anyone that doesn't have a clue about electronics.

Many just want a surround sound system and/or an HDTV. The B&M saleperson says... "you're going to need some cables/wires too" and leads them to the Mon$ter products. If the customer sees a cable or wire that's less expensive and asks why they need to pay more for a Mon$ter cable, they are promptly given a line of 'horse crap' that Mon$ter is a better cable and can/will provide better sound/picture, spouts off technical BS and the when the customer has that "deer in the headlights" look.... the sale is made. Win/win for the greedy. $100's out of grandmom's purse.

First, I agree with the expensive stuff opinion so I will leave that alone.

What "I think" is that Mon$ter takes advantage of J6P, grannie and pop-pop, and anyone that doesn't have a clue about electronics.


I have no idea what Monster wants to do intentionally but my opinion is that they believe in thier product some much that they really think its better. I know lots of employees, management, companies like this so its not a huge shock to me. Obviously most of us here would disagree with this belief but that is irrelevant.

If grandmom/grandpa/16 year old kid/college kid takes $100 out of their pocket to buy expensive cables that is THEIR DECISION not any of ours. We can only help those who ask and we can only explain what the true differences are.

Did they get scammed? Well did they do the research? did they seek secondary advice? Who knows how much time they want to spend on? how much they value $100?

Who knows, $100 gives piece of mind and limited time spent researching. If I was too spend 1 hour researching a product someone could be out $100+ in billable hours. Hence, it costs someone more to do all the research then to just buy the expensive product.


You simply can not make a judgement based on your scenario because you dont know the details. Did your grandma get scammed? Any of our friends get scammed? All my friends and family know not to buy Bose, Monster and so on.
The only true scam here is if the product didnt work at all.

What do you want Monster to do?

You want them to have ads like this??

Buy Monster because even though we do not improve your sound, you will be happy that you spent 4x as much


They are allowed to advertise with adjectives, BS, etc. just no inaccurate measurements ITS ALLOW, ITS ACCEPTED so how long before you get this and move on?

....................Monster does build quality products that are priced way, way to high.I don't even know if characterizing them as "way, way too high" is correct. $29.99 for a pair for interconnects is not really THAT expensive in the grand scheme of things. Sure, they can be had for less. But $29.99 is nothing like $229.99. And what's funny is that it is usually the "more informed" consumer who buys the $229.99 cable. Go figure.


Buyer Beware!That's what it boils down to.


Dennis's Post#329 was spot on.

yeah, "way, way too high" is purely subjective. In my case that is what I believe....


$229.99 is way, way, way, way too high ;)

...how to stop predatory pricing...

1. move to a country (or planet) where it doesn't happen
2. educate yourself (if it's important)
3. If you want to educate everyone on your own, start a school
4. remove "free market economy" from your lifestyle
5. become CEO of all the companies you feel are predatory
6. become a Federal Attorney, define predatory, and sue everyone (which will raise prices on everything).

...oh, and be certain you're not a stockholder of any of these companies...you wouldn't want to retire on income from companies which make too many profits. Also, remember, if you reduce corporate profits, you reduce tax revenue. You reduce tax revenue and you might have to pay to take care of yourself, have the trash hauled away, and supply your own water.


I just had to re-post...thanks for pointing me too it..

Its perfect!!

Where did I say "scammed"? Whatever you all like to argue, so be it. IN MY OPINION, Mon$ter is overpriced and their marketing techniques and incentives to B&M employees to "push" their products is not ethical. Sorry. Disagree if you like, but don't put words in my mouth. Also, using the excuse that uninformed consumer that didn't do their homework just doesn't float IN MY OPINION. Plain and simple...

As I said before, not everyone has access to the internet and has the privilege to get educated about wires/cables. You can't entirely put the blame on them IN MY OPINION.

I already read that post... ;)

................their marketing techniques and incentives to B&M employees to "push" their products is not ethical.Many, many products are sold that way or similarly. Employees in retail are "steered" to sell certain products because of incentives and the higher profit margins that can be realized by selling one product over another. If a store makes more money selling Product B, then that is what they will try to "push".

Ever bought a car, btw?

Many, many products are sold that way or similarly. Employees in retail are "steered" to sell certain products because of incentives and the higher profit margins that can be realized by selling one product over another. If a store makes more money selling Product B, then that is what they will try to "push".

Ever bought a car, btw?
Expensive cables are the "rustproofing and undercoating" of the retail audio business.

"You've invested all this money in your digital stuff. Now, you don't want to lose or damage any of those valuable bits?"
:D

When entry/mid-level consumer electronics companies stop thinking that the best way to be competitive is to be the most effective price whore, cable pricing might come down. Until then, deal with it.

Ever bought a car, btw?

You were doing good up until the snide remark.

Many, many products are sold that way or similarly. Employees in retail are "steered" to sell certain products because of incentives and the higher profit margins that can be realized by selling one product over another. If a store makes more money selling Product B, then that is what they will try to "push".

Ever bought a car, btw?

Or a TV for that matter! The TVs with oversaturated colors and are overly-bright are the ones they are trying to sell. (They = BB for example).

I wish I could walk into a store where all of the TVs were professionally calibrated so that I could make a good decision. Alas.

Can you clarify? Are saying you know of "installers" that use Monoprice cables/wires and deceive the customer that thinks they are getting Mon$ter products?

or... the installer does what the customers desires technically and/or financially and both benefit without deceptive marketing practices.

No they are not selling as Monster-they are just bidding a job using Mono and selling cheaper with still a good markup. Quality at least as good and cheaper at wholesale.

Expensive cables are the "rustproofing and undercoating" of the retail audio business.

"You've invested all this money in your digital stuff. Now, you don't want to loss or damage any of those valuable bits?"
:D
Well said. With the slim margins on some electronics, they try to make it up on the peripherals. Sell the car at cost and then you just have to have this 500 rustproofing and undercoating package and/or this credit life on the financing etc.

You were doing good up until the snide remark.
Are you a car salesman? :confused:

Well said. With the slim margins on some electronics, they try to make it up on the peripherals. Sell the car at cost and then you just have to have this 500 rustproofing and undercoating package and/or this credit life on the financing etc.That practice became prevalent with razor companies. Gilette basically gives away the razors and then charges through the nose for blades. Printers are the same. Cheap printer, expensive consumables.

Why should the AV industry be any different? At least there are alternative choices. Ever try to buy an aftermarket blade for a razor? And how about the no-name inkjet cartridges... mostly pure junk!

That practice became prevalent with razor companies. Gilette basically gives away the razors and then charges through the nose for blades. Printers are the same. Cheap printer, expensive consumables.

Why should the AV industry be any different? At least there are alternative choices. Ever try to buy an aftermarket blade for a razor? And how about the no-name inkjet cartridges... mostly pure junk!yep agreed.

Hm... If Monster cables aren't so great, what should I be buying? :x
I'm not nearly tool-savvy enough to attempt making my own...

Hm... If Monster cables aren't so great, what should I be buying? :x

Not sure how you got the impression they aren't "good enough". All some people have said is that Monster is guilty of selling something for more than they want to pay.

Also, using the excuse that uninformed consumer that didn't do their homework just doesn't float IN MY OPINION. Plain and simple...

As I said before, not everyone has access to the internet and has the privilege to get educated about wires/cables. You can't entirely put the blame on them IN MY OPINION.

I already read that post... ;)

Total BS and here's why. I can only imagine that a VERY SMALL percentage of those that end up purchasing Monster at a B&M store do not have access to the internet or at least a library where they can have access or if the library doesn't have access, they have issues of Consumer Reports or other mags to get information.

It sounds to me, Ratman, that you truly believe in being a victim. Personally, that word is soooooo dis-empowering, that I hardly ever use it anymore. Either that, or you are totally naive in how our market system works.

Why don't you answer my requests for your credentials Mr. Misinterpreted?

You live in Jersey; but even if you were local, based on your behavior here and anti-dealer bent, who would want you as a client?

Total BS and here's why. I can only imagine that a VERY SMALL percentage of those that end up purchasing Monster at a B&M store do not have access to the internet or at least a library where they can have access or if the library doesn't have access, they have issues of Consumer Reports or other mags to get information.

Correct. Try to find a negative review on how their product performs. See, that's what the OP wanted to know and no matter how much one may personally dislike a company, that really is a secondary issue apart from their products and their performance.

It sounds to me, Ratman, that you truly believe in being a victim. Personally, that word is soooooo dis-empowering, that I hardly ever use it anymore. Either that, or you are totally naive in how our market system works.

Both it seems. Corporations are there to sell products, whatever they may be. Caveat Emptor.

Not sure how you got the impression they aren't "good enough". All some people have said is that Monster is guilty of selling something for more than they want to pay.

Oh, okay... They're just too expensive then? Is there any other brand of high-end cables I should get other than Monster? Or should I learn how to make my own?

I love you guys... God bless America.

And Mr. Schticker,
You still can't answer my question/request. Provide your credentials. Based or your behavior here, who would want you as a designer? ;)

Total BS and here's why. I can only imagine that a VERY SMALL percentage of those that end up purchasing Monster at a B&M store do not have access to the internet or at least a library where they can have access or if the library doesn't have access, they have issues of Consumer Reports or other mags to get information.

See... that's what YOU believe and an opinion. And perhaps an assumption. Maybe you're right. Maybe not.

It sounds to me, Ratman, that you truly believe in being a victim. Personally, that word is soooooo dis-empowering, that I hardly ever use it anymore. Either that, or you are totally naive in how our market system works.
I am not a victim. But I have assisted victims and they were fortunate enough to to return those cables. Please explain the "dis-empowering" crap. That makes no sense. I'm not naive and have been around the block quite a few times. I know how marketing and sales works. Been there, done that. That's how I know. That doesn't mean that we should sit back accept that type of "consumerism".

Just as I advocate spaying/neutering and declawing of cats. :D

What I stated above regarding internet access is as much of an opinion or an assumption as stating that the sky is blue or that grass is green most all of the time. Comon' Rat. A bit of common sense here, please. To make a statement that people that buy Monster at B&M stores are victims because they can't get internet access is just plain wrong.

You've assisted victims by getting them to return their cables. No, they were not victims. They were misguided, uneducated consumers, not victims.

Explain dis-empowering "crap"? Ok. When one classifies themselves as a victim, especially in a case like what we are discussing here, they are abdicating their responsibility AND accountability for making an informed purchase, and what they are really saying is that they are a mere puppet with someone else pulling their strings. THAT is dis-empowering.

But, if one says, after making a mistake of purchasing Monster Cable at an inflated price, "Hey, that was screwed. I took the salesman's word for it when what I SHOULD have done is done a bit of research. Totally my fault. I won't make that mistake again". THAT is empowerment.

Playing the powerless victim who is at the whims of product marketing will continue to get raped over the coals and play the "poor, poor pitiful me" consumer routine, over and over and over again.

I don't know how I can make it any more clear.

What I stated above regarding internet access is as much of an opinion or an assumption as stating that the sky is blue or that grass is green most all of the time.
Sorry... doesn't make your opinion a fact, no matter the color of the sky and/or grass. Not everyone has internet access, reads/subcribes to CR or has an inkling about what is necessary to buy a TV or A/V system today. 40+ years ago it was easy. Buy a TV, plug in the antenna. Buy a stereo, connect the speakers with "any brand" 16AWG speaker wire and done. NO friggen magic or mis-direction.

Comon' Rat. A bit of common sense here, please. To make a statement that people that buy Monster at B&M stores are victims because they can't get internet access is just plain wrong.
Common sense my arse. How can you or anyone say I'm wrong? It's my opinion. And I know many that don't have easy access to the internet. Let alone... if they did, have the experience to navigate/investigate "what cables/wires should I buy?" Where's the common sense. It's more like human nature. "I'll pay whatever... as long as it's easy. Even if I can't afford/justify/understand the cost(s)"

You've assisted victims by getting them to return their cables. No, they were not victims. They were misguided, uneducated consumers, not victims.
How do you know the circumstances to be able to comment? In one case, my brother in law assumed his 25 year old son knew what was best.

When one classifies themselves as a victim, especially in a case like what we are discussing here, they are abdicating their responsibility AND accountability for making an informed purchase, and what they are really saying is that they are a mere puppet with someone else pulling their strings. THAT is dis-empowering.
Bah... corporate BS. Been through those seminars also. Not the same when buying a TV and cables. We're focusing on a much larger demographic that is largely unspecialized in an evolving field that virtually changes monthly. Putting the blame on the consumer is a cop out.

But, if one says, after making a mistake of purchasing Monster Cable at an inflated price, "Hey, that was screwed. I took the salesman's word for it when what I SHOULD have done is done a bit of research. Totally my fault. I won't make that mistake again". THAT is empowerment.
If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it.....

the only empowerment is that the cable works and Mon$ter and sales whores profit and the "uninformed" consumer has been screwed without even being kissed.

Playing the powerless victim who is at the whims of product marketing will continue to get raped over the coals and play the "poor, poor pitiful me" consumer routine, over and over and over again.
No one is "playing" the powerless victim. That's just your opinion or assumption. Or... just being argumentative.

Oh, okay... They're just too expensive then? Is there any other brand of high-end cables I should get other than Monster?
No, you should not buy any brand of high-end cables. You should just buy cables. Monoprice, Blues Jeans, Parts Express, any garden-variety electronics outlet. IT's all good.

Oh, okay... They're just too expensive then? Is there any other brand of high-end cables I should get other than Monster?No, you should not buy any brand of high-end cables. You should just buy cables. Monoprice, Blues Jeans, Parts Express, any garden-variety electronics outlet. IT's all good.Or............... buy Monster if you want to.

Your call. You've been somewhat informed, here. Now, go make that life-changing decision. Good luck and may your god(s) be with you.

Sorry... doesn't make your opinion a fact, no matter the color of the sky and/or grass. Not everyone has internet access, reads/subcribes to CR or has an inkling about what is necessary to buy a TV or A/V system today.

Please give me a scenario where one has access to a B&M AV store and doesn't have access to the internet? Your own house, friends, family, library.........Here's a FACT for you and not an opinion. If one WANTS to get information about something, THEY CAN. That is not debatable.


It's more like human nature. "I'll pay whatever... as long as it's easy. Even if I can't afford/justify/understand the cost(s)"

Then they DESERVE to get screwed, and should walk away with a smile.


How do you know the circumstances to be able to comment? In one case, my brother in law assumed his 25 year old son knew what was best.

Does that make your brother-in-law a victim or an uneducated consumer who made the mistake to assume that his son knew what was best.


We're focusing on a much larger demographic that is largely unspecialized in an evolving field that virtually changes monthly. Putting the blame on the consumer is a cop out.


Well, Rat, wake up and smell the roses. Virtually EVERYTHING is changing monthly. And if one doesn't want to do what it takes to keep up, than putting the blame on ANYONE else but himself is a cop out.

I'm done debating this with you, for you and I are about as far apart on this issue as two people can be.

Oh, okay... They're just too expensive then? Is there any other brand of high-end cables I should get other than Monster? Or should I learn how to make my own?

Well hey, learning DIY is always useful. And yes, Tributaries, AQ and a few others are very good. Monster is not alone, but their exposure and defense of their IP makes them easy targets among those that think capitalism is an interesting theory--but just that.

Oh, okay... They're just too expensive then? Is there any other brand of high-end cables I should get other than Monster? Or should I learn how to make my own?

Bottom line Ezcl is that it really doesn't matter when it comes down to measurable results. The cables that mcnarus mentioned or those that schticker mentioned as well as siv putting Monster in there, they'll all work just as well as one another.

Now when it comes to subjective opinions as to how they look, or how they feel, or more importantly, how they make YOU feel when you look at em, bend em, rub your hand lovingly up and down the cord, fondle the connectors, how they smell, how your friends and family like them (part of your trophy mix) and..........................most importantly, how they SOUND,........ only YOU can make those decisions.

Go check em out. Read reviews. Read lengthy, never-ending threads like this one. Partake in lengthy, never-ending threads like this one. It's all part of the fun.:cool:

Interesting, okay. Thank you both, schticker and lwien... I wonder if the guys at my local Circuit City/Fry's would let me try out the different cables... We'll see.. :P

Hm... If Monster cables aren't so great, what should I be buying? :x
I'm not nearly tool-savvy enough to attempt making my own...


Monster cables are fine and they work but you can buy cable from monoprice.com that gives you the same performance for a fraction of the cost. Why spend $60 when you can spend $10??

IN MY OPINION, Mon$ter is overpriced and their marketing techniques and incentives to B&M employees to "push" their products is not ethical. Sorry. Disagree if you like, but don't put words in my mouth. Also, using the excuse that uninformed consumer that didn't do their homework just doesn't float IN MY OPINION. Plain and simple...

Ratman, we can just agree to disagree. Many of us here feel that the information is out there and if people REALLY care about that $20, $50, $100 or whatever then they would atleast do some research.

IMO, all companies market BS so for me I try to always research anything I buy. Sometimes I still buy crap, sometimes I dont but I DONT EVER blame anyone else FOR MY PURCHASE.


oh and......Greed is still good but I try to limit any money Monster gets from me ;)

Please give me a scenario where one has access to a B&M AV store and doesn't have access to the internet?
My parents and in-laws.

Here's a FACT for you and not an opinion. If one WANTS to get information about something, THEY CAN. That is not debatable.
Here's a fact for you... not everyone is as technically aware as you or I. You assume everyone spends hours or days reseaching cables which is not reality. That is not debatable.

Then they DESERVE to get screwed, and should walk away with a smile. Ah, so you do agree that they got screwed? IMO no one deserves to be deceived and be "pickpocketed".

Does that make your brother-in-law a victim or an uneducated consumer who made the mistake to assume that his son knew what was best. That depends on an individuals opinion. I was glad to help him save quite a few dollars.

Well, Rat, wake up and smell the roses. Virtually EVERYTHING is changing monthly. And if one doesn't want to do what it takes to keep up, than putting the blame on ANYONE else but himself is a cop out.
It must be great to on top of everything you do and purchase. My hat's off to you!

I'm done debating this with you, for you and I are about as far apart on this issue as two people can be.

I agree. And... would be a welcomed relief. :p

Here's a fact for you... not everyone is as technically aware as you or I. You assume everyone spends hours or days reseaching cables which is not reality. That is not debatable.

Then they pay for the services required to become educated on a topic. And really, Monster is sold in just as many good stores as "bad" ones. I'm sure the money they pay someone to determine what they could have (maybe) found out online washes in terms of internet service costs and wasted time.

Ah... so I guess they pay you (as an A/V designer) to assist/educate them and if they don't purchase the cables YOU recommend, you charge them a 20% markup on the "brand x" cables. :)

I agree... that's a wash.

What's funny is that the people doing the bitching about Monster's pricing are still willing to pay $1000 and much more for a piece of AV equipment that probably costs the "manufacturer" $10 to make. It's a joke. What do you think is the true cost of a $2500 television? A $2000 pair of speakers? A $1000 receiver?

And if you could see the markup on other consumer items, you'd realize that Monster is innocuous.

What's not funny is that people will devote so much energy to something as meaningless as the price of audio cables. What a lazy life we must have. People are starving on this planet for god's sake. People die needlessly every day from incurable diseases while untold amounts of your money is poured into a senseless war.

Get a grip.

What's funny is that the people doing the bitching about Monster's pricing are still willing to pay $1000 and much more for a piece of AV equipment that probably costs the "manufacturer" $10 to make. It's a joke. What do you think is the true cost of a $2500 television? A $2000 pair of speakers? A $1000 receiver?

And if you could see the markup on other consumer items, you'd realize that Monster is innocuous.

What's not funny is that people will devote so much energy to something as meaningless as the price of audio cables. What a lazy life we must have. People are starving on this planet for god's sake. People die needlessly every day from incurable diseases while untold amounts of your money is poured into a senseless war.

Get a grip.

WTF is your problem? At least try to discuss realistically.

Any imbicile knows that markup is reality on any commodity. The amount of markup by certain manufacturers is the issue... and not funny.

You spend just as much time "defending" something so meaningless as the price of cables. Consider yourself part of the lazy life crew.

As for starving people, death from incurable disease and senseless war... that's been occuring well before electricity and contributes nothing to this thread IMO. :rolleyes:

Have another cup of coffee and wake up a little more. ;)

No, you should not buy any brand of high-end cables. You should just buy cables. Monoprice, Blues Jeans, Parts Express, any garden-variety electronics outlet. IT's all good.Your statement is mostly true. Although there are many suitable alternatives to Monster cables, that is not to say that just any cable of any type will perform well.

Take RCA cables, for instance. There are often major differences in the quality of wire used and the quality of the connectors themselves. For instance, I've used cheap RCA cables in the past and often found them to be poorly shielded, have poor quality connectors that are prone to falling out of the equipment, have shoddy construction that exhibits microphonics and hum, are subject to corrosion and have other problems.

Any imbicile knows that markup is reality on any commodity. The amount of markup by certain manufacturers is the issue... and not funny.



Achhh........I know. I said I wasn't going to debate this with you anymore, but you make such outlandish statements that I just can't help myself.

The amount of markup is dictated by operating costs along with what the market can bear...............period. There is nothing unethical or ethical, in this free market society, that dictates what a markup should or should not be other than those things which we, as a society, feels are necessities, like gas, electricity, food, etc etc etc........and surly, audio cables does NOT fall within those parameters.

For instance, I've used cheap RCA cables in the past and often found them to be poorly shielded, have poor quality connectors that are prone to falling out of the equipment, have shoddy construction that exhibits microphonics and hum, are subject to corrosion and have other problems.
Often? Perhaps you've been unlucky. Or maybe you have a set-up with unusual requirements. Things can be wrong or go wrong with cheap cables, but they usually don't, in my experience.

Your statement is mostly true. Although there are many suitable alternatives to Monster cables, that is not to say that just any cable of any type will perform well.

Take RCA cables, for instance. There are often major differences in the quality of wire used and the quality of the connectors themselves. For instance, I've used cheap RCA cables in the past and often found them to be poorly shielded, have poor quality connectors that are prone to falling out of the equipment, have shoddy construction that exhibits microphonics and hum, are subject to corrosion and have other problems.


And things "can" go wrong with expensive cables too, like Monster connectors being too tight and ripping the connectors off of your 5000.00 pre/pro. Price is not the deciding factor here when it comes to problematic cables.

I don't get this whole subthread in the thread. Monstercables are OK, they are expensive for what they are and there and there are much less expensive options out there.

While I am not saying that the consumer is being mislead by the BB store, the consumer has the obligation to know what they are buying and to determine if they are getting good value. Sure, you can get cheaper cables from BJ or monoprice, or PE, but if you want them NOW, you pay more.

There are much bigger instances of people being mislead than monster cable.

Achhh........I know. I said I wasn't going to debate this with you anymore, but you make such outlandish statements that I just can't help myself.

The amount of markup is dictated by operating costs along with what the market can bear...............period. There is nothing unethical or ethical, in this free market society, that dictates what a markup should or should not be other than those things which we, as a society, feels are necessities, like gas, electricity, food, etc etc etc........and surly, audio cables does NOT fall within those parameters.

I was hoping you'd stick to your word... oh well.:D

Why is it outlandish? I merely state my opinion and observations. Show me the "operating cost" comparisons from other competitive cable/wire manufacturers to justify the outlandish price vs. performance that Mon$ter charges. Also, how about some technical specs? If you can provide them, I may relent. Period.

And things "can" go wrong with expensive cables too, like Monster connectors being too tight and ripping the connectors off of your 5000.00 pre/pro. Price is not the deciding factor here when it comes to problematic cables.I never said it was. Quality can sometimes be determined by price, but not always. The point is, price alone should not be the only determining factor in cable selection, any more than it should be in any item.

Hm... If Monster cables aren't so great, what should I be buying? :x
I'm not nearly tool-savvy enough to attempt making my own...

Monoprice is a good source. See AVS advertisers.

No, you should not buy any brand of high-end cables. You should just buy cables. Monoprice, Blues Jeans, Parts Express, any garden-variety electronics outlet. IT's all good.I agree

I don't get this whole subthread in the thread. Monstercables are OK, they are expensive for what they are and there and there are much less expensive options out there.
Agreed. There is no law against trying to get consumers to pay as much as possible for your product.

While I am not saying that the consumer is being mislead by the BB store, the consumer has the obligation to know what they are buying and to determine if they are getting good value.
Agreed, but the consumer should be able to assume that whatever the BB salesman tells him is not an outright lie. And yet Monster gets away with training BB salesmen to tell outright lies.

WTF is your problem?Something else besides the price or marketing tactics of Monster cable.


At least try to discuss realistically.Um, yeah, that is exactly what I did. I guess reality bites, huh?


Any imbicile..........
nice spelling of imbecile


The amount of markup by certain manufacturers is the issue... It is? Could have fooled me.


You spend just as much time "defending" something so meaningless as the price of cables. Consider yourself part of the lazy life crew.The product I defend is irrelevant. And maybe it was lost on you, but I'm not defending the "price of cables". I'm not defending any product, for that matter. And maybe you also didn't notice that I long ago stopped defending that which doesn't need defending. I'm not defending ANYTHING in making this post,................. except my post. I could care less about Monster and have absolutely no particular affinity for that company.

And if you read my post I DID say "we", didn't I?


As for starving people, death from incurable disease and senseless war... that's been occuring well before electricity and contributes nothing to this thread IMO. :rolleyes:And something you have said has contributed to this thread? Attacking Monster repeatedly is useful?



Hate me if you wish, Ratman. But I have absolutely nothing at all against you, personally. Nothing at all.

I don't get this whole subthread in the thread. Monstercables are OK, they are expensive for what they are and there and there are much less expensive options out there.

While I am not saying that the consumer is being mislead by the BB store, the consumer has the obligation to know what they are buying and to determine if they are getting good value. Sure, you can get cheaper cables from BJ or monoprice, or PE, but if you want them NOW, you pay more.

There are much bigger instances of people being mislead than monster cable.a voice of reason

Agreed, but the consumer should be able to assume that whatever the BB salesman tells him is not an outright lie./giggle
/snort

the man from utopia

Ah... so I guess they pay you (as an A/V designer) to assist/educate them and if they don't purchase the cables YOU recommend, you charge them a 20% markup on the "brand x" cables. :)

More proof you have no concept of reality.

People tend to have the cable cost itemized as part of a total system proposal. They are chosen for application, not profit margin. As it happens, even the cheapest cable has ample margin so it's kind of irrelevant anyway.

And yet Monster gets away with training BB salesmen to tell outright lies.

I must assume you have some substantiation to this. Of course you do not.

BB salespeople have been ill-informed for years, independent of Monster. To say that Monster (or any company) trains people to lie is a bit of a stretch, and it tarnishes what little credibility you have left.

Agreed. There is no law against trying to get consumers to pay as much as possible for your product.


Agreed, but the consumer should be able to assume that whatever the BB salesman tells him is not an outright lie. And yet Monster gets away with training BB salesmen to tell outright lies.

But salespeople lie all the time. " Oh yes hunny, that dress looks great on you. "

I must assume you have some substantiation to this. Of course you do not.
We've had first-person testimony from at least one former salesman here, and I have seen similar elsewhere.

Salesmen get paid to SELL. In most all cases, they are incentivised to sell the product that is the MOST profitable to the company that they work for. That is the way our free market system works, and to expect something else to happen is an exercise in self-delusion and to whine that one is a victim of this free market system, I have only one suggestion. Quit whining like a little old lady and move your butt to a country where there is no free market system and in that way, you will no longer feel that you are being victimized by those greedy companies and the salespeople that work for them. North Korea comes to mind. Of course, you will then have a bunch of other things to whine about ;).

Something else besides the price or marketing tactics of Monster cable.
Then keep your personal problems/hostility out of the thread.

Um, yeah, that is exactly what I did. I guess reality bites, huh?
Sorry, don't agree. But that's okay.

nice spelling of imbecile
Sorry... thanks Mom!

It is? Could have fooled me.
Where have you been?

The product I defend is irrelevant. And maybe it was lost on you, but I'm not defending the "price of cables". I'm not defending any product, for that matter.
Could have fooled me.

And maybe you also didn't notice that I long ago stopped defending that which doesn't need defending. I'm not defending ANYTHING in making this post,................. except my post. I could care less about Monster and have absolutely no particular affinity for that company.
Could have fooled me.

And something you have said has contributed to this thread? Attacking Monster repeatedly is useful?Yes... I stated my OPINION. Yet a few like to continually pick and chose my words and make a mountain out of a mole hill. Why say I am attcking? Again and again, I am stating my opinion. If you like, I can start a new thread and focus on Sony. ;)

Hate me if you wish, Ratman. But I have absolutely nothing at all against you, personally. Nothing at all.
Back at ya...

My parents and in-laws.

that's two people. certainly that doesn't represent the majority of the nation.


Here's a fact for you... not everyone is as technically aware as you or I. You assume everyone spends hours or days reseaching cables which is not reality. That is not debatable.

you dont need to spend hours or days research cables to be informed about what is bs and what isnt. thats an overexaggeration if i've ever seen one.


Ah, so you do agree that they got screwed? IMO no one deserves to be deceived and be "pickpocketed".
some people need to learn lessons the hard way. pickpocketed is another exaggeration. youre still buying a legitimate product, whether it's overpriced or not. i've been scammed before and it was extremely effective.

Then keep your personal problems/hostility out of the thread.That's you, sir, not me!

I just find it all amusing. ;)

WTF is your problem? At least try to discuss realistically.

Any imbicile knows that markup is reality on any commodity. The amount of markup by certain manufacturers is the issue... and not funny.

You spend just as much time "defending" something so meaningless as the price of cables. Consider yourself part of the lazy life crew.

As for starving people, death from incurable disease and senseless war... that's been occuring well before electricity and contributes nothing to this thread IMO. :rolleyes:

Have another cup of coffee and wake up a little more. ;)

monster marks their prices higher than others because of the way they do business....and no, it doesn't all go to marketing. They choose to offer their products through retailers, and real estate at these stores do not come cheap. These retailers need incentives to buy a monster cable, or they could use their invaluable real estate for other more profitable products. I hope youre not comparing monster prices to monoprice prices because that would be ignorant.

Yes... I stated my OPINION. Yet a few like to continually pick and chose my words and make a mountain out of a mole hill. Why say I am attcking? Again and again, I am stating my opinion. If you like, I can start a new thread and focus on Sony. ;)


Typical, transparent statements from someone who feels that they are losing an argument or debate.

In the beginning and thru the middle of this thread, Rat, you never mentioned that you were just stating an "opinion", nor did you ever state that people are cherry picking your words and making a mountain out of a mole hill. It is only after your arguments were poked so full of holes that they didn't make any sense anymore, that you succumbed to the "I'm only stating my opinion" and "you're just cherry picking my words" routine.

I was hoping you'd stick to your word... oh well.:D

Why is it outlandish? I merely state my opinion and observations. Show me the "operating cost" comparisons from other competitive cable/wire manufacturers to justify the outlandish price vs. performance that Mon$ter charges. Also, how about some technical specs? If you can provide them, I may relent. Period.

sure, because there are a ton of publicly traded cable companies out there that release their finances quarterly. such information is a breeze to find, yeah? :rolleyes:

In the beginning and thru the middle of this thread, Rat, you never mentioned that you were just stating an "opinion", nor did you ever state that people are cherry picking your words and making a mountain out of a mole hill. .
OPINION...
Read posts 267,319,348,367
Who's attacking now?

i wonder why i never see complaints on companies like chanel, gucci, etc on their prices. My gf bought an 800 dollar gucci bag with my money and i can tell you it was way more painful than if i paid 100 dollars for a hdmi cable. 800 bucks for a bag that probably costs 15 dollars to make and looks like any other bag. Where's the justification in that?

i wonder why i never see complaints on companies like chanel, gucci, etc on their prices. Where's the justification in that?

Different forum... :rolleyes:

i wonder why i never see complaints on companies like chanel, gucci, etc on their prices. My gf bought an 800 dollar gucci bag with my money and i can tell you it was way more painful than if i paid 100 dollars for a hdmi cable. 800 bucks for a bag that probably costs 15 dollars to make and looks like any other bag. Where's the justification in that?

Consider yourself lucky. Check these out........http://handbags.wetpaint.com/page/Most+Expensive+Designer+Bags+Handbags+List?t=anon

........and don't even start with shoes.:rolleyes:

Different forum... :rolleyes:

just trying to lighten the mood. got a little hostile in here. :p

Consider yourself lucky. Check these out........http://handbags.wetpaint.com/page/Most+Expensive+Designer+Bags+Handbags+List?t=anon

........and don't even start with shoes.:rolleyes:

lol, im not gonna ask why you so conveniently had this site on hand. ;)


btw, that lv urban snatchel bag is an abomination. $150K for garbage stitched together.

Salesmen get paid to SELL.
Yes, but it's still (technically) illegal for them to LIE, even here in the Capitalist Utopia.

But salespeople lie all the time. " Oh yes hunny, that dress looks great on you. "
That's an opinion. "Monster cables give you deeper bass" purports to be a fact.

................even here in the Capitalist Utopia.communist :p


That's an opinion. "Monster cables give you deeper bass" purports to be a fact.Deeper than what?

Deeper than what?
In the context of a retail sales floor, deeper than the other brands in the store, or the other brands the consumer asks about. That's what makes it different from the same statement on Monster's Web site.

In the context of a retail sales floor, deeper than the other brands in the store, or the other brands the consumer asks about. That's what makes it different from the same statement on Monster's Web site.
Maybe it means deeper than if you didn't use a cable.

Maybe it means deeper than if you didn't use a cable.
Only if you're really, really dense. The standard for this sort of thing is, how would the average consumer understand it? Not, how would the average vegetable understand it?

Expensive cables are the "rustproofing and undercoating" of the retail audio business.

"You've invested all this money in your digital stuff. Now, you don't want to lose or damage any of those valuable bits?"
:D

It's marketing via fear, uncertainty, and doubt … FUD.

Don't you wish you had though (sic) of it?:D Leaders in an industry tend to be the ones that dictate the flow of said industry.

I don't think that everyone in business aspires to "lead" in such tactics, and they're not suckers for choosing not to. Not everyone thinks that "ethics" and "business ethics" are two different concepts.

Actually with all of the confusion about this industry and emerging tech it isn't dishonest, it's a service. You may see it as the equivalent of putting the fact you have a driver's license on your resume, but the average consumer has no idea what many of these things mean. Monster markets the obvious, but those things are only obvious to a few. Monster markets to the masses, and part of their success is the peace of mind that is involved when a customer can look at the package and say "yes, this will work." You cannot penalize a kid in class because they raise their hand first.

It's a service, but to whom? Themselves?

You cannot reward a kid for knowingly giving a wrong answer, even if he raises his hand first.

lol, im not gonna ask why you so conveniently had this site on hand. ;)


btw, that lv urban snatchel bag is an abomination. $150K for garbage stitched together.

lol..........googled it.

btw, I'm not gonna ask you why you read through the WHOLE page ;)

lol..........googled it.

btw, I'm not gonna ask you why you read through the WHOLE page ;)

touche.

I don't think that everyone in business aspires to "lead" in such tactics, and they're not suckers for choosing not to. Not everyone thinks that "ethics" and "business ethics" are two different concepts.

It's a service, but to whom? Themselves?
To the customer. It is likely that a consumer that buys a monster cable from a big box company needs their hands held through their purchases. Monster spends extra time on the packages to make sure they have all the bases covered in text....the packages also come in different flavors marketed specifically towards gaming, computer, and a/v. You can think of the premium price as a service charge for the hand-holding.


You cannot reward a kid for knowingly giving a wrong answer, even if he raises his hand first.

You must have been out of school for a while. "A for effort" is today's scholastic model.

It is likely that a consumer that buys a monster cable from a big box company needs their hands held through their purchases.
What they need is an honest answer to their questions. That's not what they get.

To the customer. It is likely that a consumer that buys a monster cable from a big box company needs their hands held through their purchases. Monster spends extra time on the packages to make sure they have all the bases covered in text....the packages also come in different flavors marketed specifically towards gaming, computer, and a/v. You can think of the premium price as a service charge for the hand-holding.

Yes, of course they market to the customer; my question was who do they serve? They do not serve the customer--they do not even hand-hold, but more try to lead by the nose.

There is the marketing approach of "here's how to get what you need" … and "here's the only way to get what you need … (and it must be true because I make a spiff on it)."

You must have been out of school for a while. "A for effort" is today's scholastic model.

Do you advocate rewards for intentional wrong answers made with effort?

What they need is an honest answer to their questions. That's not what they get.And that's not what they want, either. They just want to be told what to get.

And that's not what they want, either. They just want to be told what to get. Period.
You must be confusing the average consumer with readers of Stereophile.

And that's not what they want, either. They just want to be told what to get.

+1 !!

No one has posted or poven that Monster lies.

saying "Monster cables will improve the BASS" is not a lie because there is ZERO technical data there. "improve" is just a meaningless word.

Hey did the customer plug it in and hear better BASS through placebo ? ;) Sure they did ;)


In the end there are more happy Monster product owners then there are bashers (the same can be said for BOSE actually). Are these people enjoying their products? YES!!! Does it really matter what these people are not aware off? Yes BOSE and Monster is different but both are BASHED and both have lots of happy customers....hmmmm



What's not funny is that people will devote so much energy to something as meaningless as the price of audio cables. What a lazy life we must have. People are starving on this planet for god's sake. People die needlessly every day from incurable diseases while untold amounts of your money is poured into a senseless war.



We have our priorities today :D

We could argue how stupid it will be to drill for oil off all the coasts because the same amount of money could be spend to create wind farms and 100 sq mile solar systems or hydrogen fill up stations.....how about how its so freaking dumb to focus on gay marriage or religion in public places instead of infrastructure like bridges colapsing or levies breaking.....hmmmmm.... thats so old ;)

Lets get back to arguing about saying "This cable will increase your BASS" is a outright lie and we should sue Monster. Who actually EVER LISTENS TO A SALES PERSON? Especially kids that work at BB, what education, what do they get paid. They know nothing and should be treated as such in my books.

Second arguement, does it say it on the packaging or are we talking about what a sales Kid says in BB? There is a huge difference.

saying "Monster cables will improve the BASS" is not a lie because there is ZERO technical data there. "improve" is just a meaningless word.
So, if I say a Yugo can go faster than a Ferrari, that's not a lie because I didn't mention the actual MPH?

So, if I say a Yugo can go faster than a Ferrari, that's not a lie because I didn't mention the actual MPH?

correct but remember Monster does not compare to any specific brand.

So take the Crapiest, worst built, non-functioning cable out there and I would bet they can meet their claim ;)

Its NOT ILLEGAL and that is all that matters, it doesnt matter if some people DONT LIKE IT. Opinion is not LAW, make it LAW then you have an arguement ;)

NOTE: You guys do realize that I dont like their marketing strategy, right? Im just posting that its legal, my personal opinion is irrelevant in this discussion as it should in any LOGICAL DEBATE.

NOTE: You guys do realize that I dont like their marketing strategy, right? Im just posting that its legal, my personal opinion is irrelevant in this discussion as it should in any LOGICAL DEBATE.

Agreed, but by some of the responses here (like Ratmans), I doubt very seriously that this thread could be considered a logical debate.

We've had first-person testimony from at least one former salesman here, and I have seen similar elsewhere.

I thought this forum dismissed testimony from A/V salespeople?:D Convenient.

BTW - I think we can all agree that calling BB personnel salespeople is a bit of a stretch. Clerk is more accurate.

correct but remember Monster does not compare to any specific brand.
Not in its product literature, but that's not what we're talking about. Imagine that there are two cables on the rack—a $5 generic and a $30 Monster. Naive customer asks the sales clerk, "Why does this one cost 6 times as much as that one? Does it sound better?" Clerk answers, "Absolutely. It will give you deeper bass." That's a falsehood, and it is (technically) illegal.

Is Monster responsible for what store employees say about its products? I've read multiple posts from former store employees who've been "trained" by Monster reps, and who attest that they hear some real whoppers. Obviously this doesn't constitute admissible evidence. But if it is true, then I'd say that Monster does bear considerable responsibility for what sales clerks ultimately say about its products. To think otherwise strikes me as pathetically naive—or, in shticker's case, grossly self-serving.

Note that because this is all done orally, it'd be almost impossible to prove legally, so Monster and the stores are on very safe ground.

This also suggests what is my biggest beef with Monster—not what it claims for its particular products, but the dominant role it has played for 30 years in promoting the general idea that audio cables have audible effects, when they almost never do.

Agreed, but by some of the responses here (like Ratmans), I doubt very seriously that this thread could be considered a logical debate.
Listen...
If you disagree with me, that's your perogative. But it's really not necessary to twist your knife with condecending remarks. Light up and relax.:mad:

Listen...
If you disagree with me, that's your perogative. But it's really not necessary to twist your knife with condecending remarks. Light up and relax.:mad:

OK, you're right. No more twisting.

Naive customer asks the sales clerk, "Why does this one cost 6 times as much as that one? Does it sound better?" Clerk answers, "Absolutely. It will give you deeper bass." That's a falsehood, and it is (technically) illegal.Never heard a clerk say that when I've eavesdropped (love to do that). In fact, I have on more than one occasion heard a clerk answer this sort of question by confiding that the $30 cable is unnecessary.


Is Monster responsible for what store employees say about its products? I've read multiple posts from former store employees who've been "trained" by Monster reps, and who attest that they hear some real whoppers. Obviously this doesn't constitute admissible evidence. But if it is true, then I'd say that Monster does bear considerable responsibility for what sales clerks ultimately say about its products. To think otherwise strikes me as pathetically naive—or, in shticker's case, grossly self-serving.Salespeople may be coached to direct customers to buy Monster cables, but not to specifically lie. Now, whether an employee himself (or herself) chooses to lie to a customer in order to pad their commission or win that free trip to Acapulco is a whole other issue. And I can see how Monster's, or anyone else's, incentives could promote such behavior.

And I can see how Monster's, or anyone else's, incentives could promote such behavior.

Yup........Hmmm......let me think. Many moons ago when I worked on the sales floor selling stereo's, as it was called back in the day, I won:

A trip to Hawaii
A trip to Monaco
A Proton TV
A Concord Head Unit
4 trips to CES

and made enough cash on spiffs to feed me throughout the day. Was Monster Cable profitable? Yeah, but not nearly as much as selling cartridges, house brand speakers and extended warranties.

Not in its product literature, but that's not what we're talking about. Imagine that there are two cables on the rack—a $5 generic and a $30 Monster. Naive customer asks the sales clerk, "Why does this one cost 6 times as much as that one? Does it sound better?" Clerk answers, "Absolutely. It will give you deeper bass." That's a falsehood, and it is (technically) illegal.

The reason why it isn't illegal to say that is because it's actually true that a better built, thicker gauge, and better shielded cable will provide better results the majority of the time. A few people that think that it doesn't simply because it costs more is not admissible. One cannot argue that Monster scopes poorly.

This also suggests what is my biggest beef with Monster—not what it claims for its particular products, but the dominant role it has played for 30 years in promoting the general idea that audio cables have audible effects, when they almost never do.

:eek:
Why mcnarus, I think we might be close to a breakthrough!

All you need is one example to shatter objectivist theory...

The reason why it isn't illegal to say that is because it's actually true that a better built, thicker gauge, and better shielded cable will provide better results the majority of the time.
But read what I actually wrote: "Absolutely. It will give you deeper bass."

A "better built, thicker gauge, and better shielded cable" will not do that. But I promise not to tell your customers, so you can keep on educating them as well as the BB clerks do.

All you need is one example to shatter objectivist theory...
Too bad you don't have one.

But read what I actually wrote: "Absolutely. It will give you deeper bass."Exactly. It's what you wrote. In your little hypothetical customer/clerk encounter.

No one has posted or poven that Monster lies.

saying "Monster cables will improve the BASS" is not a lie because there is ZERO technical data there. "improve" is just a meaningless word.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, well then ....

If improve is a meaningless word, then I guess words like better, best, faster, fastest, etc must be meaningless too.

According to you reasoning (or lack therof), if I said that Mendoza (of the Mendoza line fame) was the best hitter in baseball, I guess that wouldn't be a lie because there is zero technical data there.

According to you reasoning (or lack therof), if I said that Mendoza (of the Mendoza line fame) was the best hitter in baseball, I guess that wouldn't be a lie because there is zero technical data there.Monster doesn't claim to provide the best bass.

"Mendoza is a better hitter" is completely different than saying "Mendoza is the best hitter in baseball".

Besides, as far as I know, Monster does not claim to improve the bass. Only that it provides deeper bass. And this is what is intangible. Deeper than what?

Ya know, I totally understand why people get all upset when they see others buy into the marketing and advertising of various products, not just Monster, but again, to me, the blame lies with the purchaser of said product, not those that are marketing the product. Just about everyone who has a marketing budget will paint their product in the most favorable light as possible so that their product will stand above the rest, and if they don't, their marketing manager should be fired.

Marketing and advertising is designed to get you to buy THEIR product. If you fall for the marketing hype, who's fault is that? If you are on the marketing team, you'd be an idiot if you didn't jump up and down and say, "It's my fault. It's all mine !!!" But if you are a consumer, you'd be just as much of an idiot if you jumped up and down and said, "It's their fault. It's all theirs !"

You guys should buy some "audiophile" grade cable. Denon says there is a demand for it.

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3429.asp#

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/denon_sells_5_feet_of_cable_for_500/

http://gizmodo.com/363154/audiophile-deathmatch-monster-cables-vs-a-coat-hanger

While you are at it...look at this...

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, well then ....

If improve is a meaningless word, then I guess words like better, best, faster, fastest, etc must be meaningless too.

According to you reasoning (or lack therof), if I said that Mendoza (of the Mendoza line fame) was the best hitter in baseball, I guess that wouldn't be a lie because there is zero technical data there.


that's a horrible comparison. best and better are two completely different terms.

http://gizmodo.com/363154/audiophile-deathmatch-monster-cables-vs-a-coat-hanger

While you are at it...look at this...

a coat hanger acts as a solid conductor, i'm not one bit surprised that it would outperform any consumer-level speaker cable. would you wire your speakers with coat hanger? how practical is that?

But read what I actually wrote: "Absolutely. It will give you deeper bass."

Any lies or bs you hear from BB employees originate from BB employees, not from monster. Your assumption that monster teaches bb employees to lie to make a sale is exactly what it is...an assumption.

Yes, of course they market to the customer; my question was who do they serve? They do not serve the customer--they do not even hand-hold, but more try to lead by the nose.

There is the marketing approach of "here's how to get what you need" … and "here's the only way to get what you need … (and it must be true because I make a spiff on it)."

I understood what your question was, and i stick by my answer. The average consumer that knows nothing about a/v doesn't want to see a plain box that says f-pin cable. What the hell is a f-pin cable? They want to see pictures, a list of compatible sources, gratification that the cable they're buying is the correct cable as well as a quality one. It's a service to the customer in that it gives them state of mind.

Do you advocate rewards for intentional wrong answers made with effort?

not in an academic environment, i dont.

Any lies or bs you hear from BB employees originate from BB employees, not from monster.
Like I said above, this is pathetically naive.

Your assumption that monster teaches bb employees to lie to make a sale is exactly what it is...an assumption.
No, it's an allegation, raised by people who claimed to be former employees.

Like I said above, this is pathetically naive.


No, it's an allegation, raised by people who claimed to be former employees.

pathetically naive, or first hand account? ;) thanks for stepping up the insult-level, though.

I retract "pathetically."

By the way, I want to thank all of Monster's defenders for giving me and others a 15-page forum in which to repeatedly bash your beloved company. You can't pay for publicity like that.

Ya know, I totally understand why people get all upset when they see others buy into the marketing and advertising of various products

I expect that some companies' marketing will take a turn for the absurd; I would be more upset if forums like this become echo chambers for the woo-woo marketing instead of resources for straightforward discussion of wire.

I understood what your question was, and i stick by my answer. The average consumer that knows nothing about a/v doesn't want to see a plain box that says f-pin cable. What the hell is a f-pin cable? They want to see pictures, a list of compatible sources, gratification that the cable they're buying is the correct cable as well as a quality one. It's a service to the customer in that it gives them state of mind.

Actually, you didn't/don't seem to understand or answer my question.

The company that sells the average consumer who doesn't know anything about A/V on supposedly magical properties of wire is not doing a service to said consumer.

http://gizmodo.com/363154/audiophile-deathmatch-monster-cables-vs-a-coat-hanger

While you are at it...look at this...And how is that relevant to the discussion at hand?

Based or your behavior here, who would want you as a designer? ;)

Stating that in certain systems the cable's design can improve performance is hardly some "claim" that is either original or fantastic. The only thing I've done is state that, and to express concerns over build and QC over cheap cables. Again, very prudent and based in results from the field. It isn't scientific, but that fact shouldn't preclude one from taking the data and adding to the list that helps make one's decision.

I retract "pathetically."

By the way, I want to thank all of Monster's defenders for giving me and others a 15-page forum in which to repeatedly bash your beloved company. You can't pay for publicity like that.

Monster defenders?
Beloved company?

It's this kind of perverted view that makes debating in threads like this so frustrating. No one, NO ONE in this thread has even implied that Monster was a beloved company to them.

No, it's an allegation, raised by people who claimed to be former employees.An allegation that "Monster teaches BB employees to lie to make a sale"? Or even that BB trains their employees to lie to make a sale? Got any links to support that? And, more importantly, some sort of validation of the credibility of this/these purported former employees? Honestly, you don't have a leg to stand on, here.

By the way, I want to thank all of Monster's defenders for giving me and others a 15-page forum in which to repeatedly bash your beloved company. You can't pay for publicity like that.That you consider us "Monster defenders" displays a fundamental misunderstanding of what the discussion is truly about. I couldn't give a rat's ass about Monster.

I retract "pathetically."

thank you sir, i appreciate it.


By the way, I want to thank all of Monster's defenders for giving me and others a 15-page forum in which to repeatedly bash your beloved company. You can't pay for publicity like that.

i think everyone that has argued against your view has stated that they aren't arguing for monster. i respect any company that can make money and create an industry out of an otherwise commoditized market. I just don't believe that the principles of every-day morality can be applied to business. Just my .02.

................I would be more upset if forums like this become echo chambers for the woo-woo marketing instead of resources for straightforward discussion of wire.I don't think you have anything to worry about. If that is what you really think, then you too display a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue(s) at hand.

I expect that some companies' marketing will take a turn for the absurd; I would be more upset if forums like this become echo chambers for the woo-woo marketing instead of resources for straightforward discussion of wire.

I think BOTH can exist. This forum can both be a "resource for straightforward discussion of wire" AND hold discussions about the marketing of said product.

But for the record, I disagree that "some" companies marketing take a turn for the absurd. I would say that MOST companies marketing take a turn for the absurd. Just watch a few TV commercials or read a few magazine ads.

What's amazing is that this "absurd" advertising works, and what's even more amazing is that because it works, we blame the companies rather than the naivety of the consumer.

I just don't believe that the principles of every-day morality can be applied to business.
That's sad.

Actually, you didn't/don't seem to understand or answer my question.

The company that sells the average consumer who doesn't know anything about A/V on supposedly magical properties of wire is not doing a service to said consumer.

i understand your question just fine. I would imagine whether or not a service has been provided should be determined by the consumer. I'm also confident that any consumer of monster appreciates the thorough packaging graphics of monster products. We may have opposing views of what a "service" is.

"With QSC's exclusive PowerLight® switching technology you'll hear ultra-powerful bass and superior highs in every scene.

With technology, DCA amplifiers take your soundtracks to a whole new level. Not only does it give your music bigger bass and cleaner highs, PowerLight also cuts wasted heat and boosts reliability."

That's sad.

...and that is the society we live in.

...and that is the society we live in.
Mine wasn't a comment about society.

Mine wasn't a comment about society.

if you were referring to me being sad, then that's fine. we can agree to disagree because i find your view of business rather amusing myself.

Yes, I think there's a line that businesses should not cross. The law agrees with me, by the way. It really is illegal (in the US, anyway), to make demonstrably false claims about a product. And the standard for "demonstrably false" isn't, can your lawyer weasel you out of it? It's, how would the average consumer understand this claim?

The average consumer, I would think, would interpret the statement, "This cable will give you deeper bass" to mean that there are actually other, similar products on the market that would not give you such deep bass. If consumer and salesman are staring at a rack full of such products, that assumption is even more justified.

that's a horrible comparison. best and better are two completely different terms.

To quote an expert, words are meaningless :D

Monster doesn't claim to provide the best bass.

"Mendoza is a better hitter" is completely different than saying "Mendoza is the best hitter in baseball".

Besides, as far as I know, Monster does not claim to improve the bass. Only that it provides deeper bass. And this is what is intangible. Deeper than what?

Okay, Mendoza is a better hitter. Better than what? Better than the other hitters under discussion.

Monter provides deeper bass. Deeper bass than your refrigerator? Deeper bass than your golf clubs? Deeper bass than your toothbrush? Deeper bass than your coffee cup? ...

The logical assumption any reasonable person to make is deeper bass than the competitors cable. Is that so hard to get?:rolleyes:

I don't think you have anything to worry about. If that is what you really think, then you too display a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue(s) at hand.

And what would that fundamental misunderstanding be?

I think BOTH can exist. This forum can both be a "resource for straightforward discussion of wire" AND hold discussions about the marketing of said product.

I'm not complaining about discussion of the marketing; that seems to be what we're doing here. As I said, I don't want to see forums like this become echo chambers for woo-woo marketing. If you want to argue the merits of a marketing savvy that sells the emperor a new suit, please recognize that it doesn't doesn't speak to any quality of the suit.

I'm not complaining about discussion of the marketing; that seems to be what we're doing here. As I said, I don't want to see forums like this become echo chambers for woo-woo marketing. If you want to argue the merits of a marketing savvy that sells the emperor a new suit, please recognize that it doesn't doesn't speak to any quality of the suit.


I don't believe that anyone here has. I have complained about the quality of Monster Cable in this thread numerous times.

But I would like to hear your response to post #459, for it sounds like you are marketing your products in a very similar fashion as Monster markets theirs, no?

Naive customer asks the sales clerk, "Why does this one cost 6 times as much as that one? Does it sound better?" Clerk answers, "Absolutely. It will give you deeper bass." That's a falsehood, and it is (technically) illegal.

Someone point me to the legal presidence of this statement?

If no one can then once again someone is posting opinion out of their butthole again thinking they have even an ounce of legal backing. ;)

Sorry but lets try not to think our opinion is LAW, its just opinion. The only difference here is that Im on the UNTIL PROVEN BY LAW side ...hmmm :eek:

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, well then ....

If improve is a meaningless word, then I guess words like better, best, faster, fastest, etc must be meaningless too.

According to you reasoning (or lack therof), if I said that Mendoza (of the Mendoza line fame) was the best hitter in baseball, I guess that wouldn't be a lie because there is zero technical data there

reasoning? Lack therof?? Your duck commentary is meaningless too but you guys just dont get it.

You think other companies wouldnt take Monster to court if this was really illegal?? Cmon guys, you are going over the top with it. Once its proven in court then you have a valid arguement but until then its just opinion.

I just hope none of you guys run companies because I would fear for its profitability :eek:

By the way, I want to thank all of Monster's defenders for giving me and others a 15-page forum in which to repeatedly bash your beloved company. You can't pay for publicity like that.

Obviously you dont realize that we have bashed monster more then you have on this forum for a long time.

I dont care about Monster,I try to tell as many people as possible to never buy monster products because they are way over priced.

This debate for most of us is about Marketing itself and how companies market their products LEGALLY. the emotions of Hating or Loving Monster should not be involved, I guess people can not leave their emotions out of the debate.

Last word on this dead horse thread.......


IMO, People are just plain dumb if they actually go into a BB or CC and ask opinions of a sales clerk. What did the people think the kid will tell them?? If they are dumb enough to not understand that then they are dumb enough to spend their money on whatever, not my problem.

Someone point me to the legal presidence of this statement?
Do you honestly believe there are no laws against false advertising?

IMO, People are just plain dumb if they actually go into a BB or CC and ask opinions of a sales clerk. What did the people think the kid will tell them?? If they are dumb enough to not understand that then they are dumb enough to spend their money on whatever, not my problem.
Agreed. But it's still illegal for that sales clerk to lie to them. "Buyer beware" is good advice, but it's not the legal standard.

Do you honestly believe there are no laws against false advertising?

It has nothing to do with what I believe. Again my actually opinion means nothing here, just the hard cold facts. Do you have a court case on "This product is better at....."?


If you dont then why do you believe its illegal? Just because you think it should be?

Do you honestly believe there are no laws against false advertising?



Sure there are. But the question is, WHAT is considered false advertising? From a legal perspective , your opinion about what constitutes false advertising means diddly squat for no one, as of yet, has challenged their marketing and advertising copy in a court of law.

has challenged their marketing and advertising copy in a court of law

Exactly!!

I don't believe that anyone here has. I have complained about the quality of Monster Cable in this thread numerous times.

You did seem to praise their marketing acumen.

But I would like to hear your response to post #459, for it sounds like you are marketing your products in a very similar fashion as Monster markets theirs, no?

Tell me what similarity you find.

Last word on this dead horse thread.......


It has nothing to do with what I believe. Again my actually opinion means nothing here, just the hard cold facts. Do you have a court case on "This product is better at....."?

If you dont then why do you believe its illegal? Just because you think it should be?

False advertising? First you say this is your last word, and then you keep on posting. Don't worry, I'm not going to sue you for false advertising :rolleyes:

Guys, dont bitch about it do something about it if you think its illegal!!

False advertising? First you say this is your last word, and then you keep on posting. Don't worry, I'm not going to sue you for false advertising

:D its a dead horse thread. You guys give me a good laugh. :D

You did seem to praise their marketing acumen.



Tell me what similarity you find.

I have never praised their product, however, I do praise their marketing success, considering that they have successfully branded their product as Kleenex has to tissue paper. Creating an 800lb gorilla out of wire is no small feat.

And as far as what is similar regarding the marketing of your product to Monsters, tell me how "superior highs in EVERY scene" or "bigger bass" or "cleaner highs" differ from Monster saying that their cables gives you "deeper base".

It has nothing to do with what I believe. Again my actually opinion means nothing here, just the hard cold facts. Do you have a court case on "This product is better at....."?


If you dont then why do you believe its illegal? Just because you think it should be?
Does simple logic escape you? If a claim about a product is false, and making a false claim is illegal, then making that particular claim is illegal. And it's illegal even if no one's ever been convicted of making that exact claim before.

mcnarus, I think your mistake is in believing that our legal system is logical.

"Laws are like sausages. It is better not to see them being made."
----Otto von Bismarck

The law agrees with me, by the way. It really is illegal (in the US, anyway), to make demonstrably false claims about a product. And the standard for "demonstrably false" isn't, can your lawyer weasel you out of it? It's, how would the average consumer understand this claim?


I'm curious what your legal credentials are. If Monster Cable is so clearly breaking the law, how do they continue to do business, market the same way, and generate the revenue they do? ...and that is precisely how the law works. if your lawyer can weasel you out, then you haven't broken a law. innocent until proven guilty, yeah? you seem to have blurred the line between morality and law. two completely different things.

i'm sure monster's legal team knows a little more about what can and can't be put on packaging.

If Monster Cable is so clearly breaking the law, how do they continue to do business, market the same way, and generate the revenue they do?
First of all, I've never said that Monster itself is clearly breaking the law. I've said that there have been allegations about Monster's behavior that, if true, would certainly be skirting the law. I say "skirting" here, because Monster's actual culpability, in the case of store employees making false claims based on Monster's training, would be a tricky call. But I'd argue that they'd certainly have some culpability—they provide the talking points, as well as the incentive to use them.

As for how Monster continues to do these things, if it does, the answer is that the law is not a perfectly efficient institution. Lots of "crime" goes on under the radar, so to speak. The fact that this all happens orally helps.

if your lawyer can weasel you out, then you haven't broken a law.
What I meant was that the standard doesn't accept the argument, "Well, it might mean..." It's, what would the typical consumer take it to mean?

you seem to have blurred the line between morality and law. two completely different things.
Well, I'm writing neither a legal brief nor an ethics paper here. I'd say that Monster is certainly morally culpable and might be legally culpable, as well.

i'm sure monster's legal team knows a little more about what can and can't be put on packaging.
When have I ever said anything about their packaging?

But I'd argue that they'd certainly have some culpability—they provide the talking points, as well as the incentive to use them.



As does just about every manufacturer who is competing for floor space in B&M retail stores.

They ALL provide the talking points. Regarding incentives, the AMOUNT of incentives really is a indication of WHERE the manufacturer decides to spend their money in their marketing efforts in either television ads, magazine ads, co-op advertising with the retailer, packaging, radio ads, sales training and/or floor incentives such as spiffs, higher commission rates, product giveaways and trips won in sales contests.

ALL manufacturers incent their retailers to sell their product. How much of that incentive reaches the sales floor is really determined by the retailer.

As does just about every manufacturer who is competing for floor space in B&M retail stores.
But I don't hear sales clerks telling outright falsehoods about most other products. And I don't hear ex-employees telling stories about how they were trained to tell those falsehoods, either.

But I don't hear sales clerks telling outright falsehoods about most other products. And I don't hear ex-employees telling stories about how they were trained to tell those falsehoods, either.

YOU may not have heard it, but it DOES happen and it happens a lot. But in most all of the cases that it happens, it's the sales clerks that ELABORATE and exaggerate the selling points given out in the sales training's.

1.) employees making false claims based on Monster's training

2.) employees making false claims based on their employer's (BB, CC, etc.) training

3.) employees making false claims, on their own, intentionally

4.) employees making false claims unintentionally


So, which is it? If any. Got any sort of verification?

Siv, is that question posed to me or mcnarus?

Siv, is that question posed to me or mcnarus?mcnarus, I guess, but really to anyone

mcnarus is who said "employees making false claims based on Monster's training"

1.) employees making false claims based on Monster's training

2.) employees making false claims based on their employer's (BB, CC, etc.) training

3.) employees making false claims, on their own, intentionally

4.) employees making false claims unintentionally


So, which is it? If any. Got any sort of verification?

All of the above.

Let me explain. Employees do make false claims, at one time or another, both intentionally and unintentionally by elaborating and exaggerating those claims that are being made by both the retailer and the manufacturer. Typically, a retailer, once informed that an employee is making false claims, will take corrective action.

Verification? Over 40 years working in the retail consumer electronics industry, from stock clerk, to salesman, to store manager, to district manager, to sales trainer, to buyer, to VP of Sales and Marketing to VP/General Manager.......all with consumer electronic chains with over 40 retail outlets in Southern California with the exception of one high end store in Santa Monica, Calif.

All of the above.So, you are saying that both Monster and the retail A/V chains specifically train their employees to intentionally lie about Monster cable.

That they might over-represent their products to unwitting employees during their training would be more believable to me than them actually blatantly telling the employees to intentionally lie to customers.

Monster tells or presents idea to employee that product provides "deeper bass"; employee tells or presents idea to customer that product provides "deeper bass". Marketing and advertising affirms this. "Deeper bass" is still intangible.

I think the assertion that Monster and/or the A/V chains specifically, explicitly, and blatantly instruct employees to lie about the products is a strong allegation. If it were true, I suspect the whistle would have been blown long ago. And if the whistle has been blown, apparently there is nothing being done that is illegal. Unsavory perhaps, but not illegal.

So, you are saying that both Monster and the retail A/V chains specifically train their employees to intentionally lie about Monster cable.



No, that is not what I am saying. Please reread my statement in the previous post.

When I concur that "employees making false claims based on their employer's (BB, CC, etc.) training", what I mean to imply is that the employees elaborate and exaggerate what they have been told in the retailers training seminars. Hope that clarifies it.

Example: From Monster to Salesman......"Our cables will provide your customers with deep base along with the full impact of the original recording"
From Salesman to customer...."If you don't use Monster Cable, your system will sound like crap i.e you will NOT realize the full potential of your investment.. Monster Cable will sound soooooo much better than the cable that comes with your gear from the manufacturer.

No, that is not what I am saying. Please reread my statement in the previous post.Yeah, I know you weren't really saying that (not in some many words, anyway). Some here are. I was only using your post as a springboard to make a rhetorical point.

But you did say:
All of the above.

But I don't hear sales clerks telling outright falsehoods about most other products. Actually, I have. Many times.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, siv.

And yeah, I know that some here ARE really saying that, and in most all cases, they are totally wrong. There is just too much at stake for a manufacturer or a retailer to condone such practices, but that's not to say that a District Manager or Store Manager may turn a blind eye if they see it happen under the radar so that they can win that trip to Jamaica.

from stock clerk, to salesman, to store manager, to district manager, to sales trainer, to buyer, to VP of Sales and Marketing to VP/General Manager

OT.....Well done!! It takes passion to stay in a certain industry.

OT.....Well done!! It takes passion to stay in a certain industry.

Passion, laziness or fear of change;). But thanks for the kudo's !

And as far as what is similar regarding the marketing of your product to Monsters, tell me how "superior highs in EVERY scene" or "bigger bass" or "cleaner highs" differ from Monster saying that their cables gives you "deeper base".


Its a great question, spend 30 minutes looking at company websites selling AV products lots of funny advertising out there so why is Monster their ONLY target here for marketing lies? Just spend 30 minutes online and it will confirm that once again companies have to BS to sell their product.

Its still really simple.....

copper wire is copper wire, you better say something in your advertising to separate you from others or we wont buy your product!


Secondly, this whole arguement over something like "it will give you deeper bass" is just silly. The AV world is full of subjective BS and this statement is common with so many products it just makes me laugh when someone actually believes it.