Does simple logic escape you? If a claim about a product is false, and making a false claim is illegal, then making that particular claim is illegal. And it's illegal even if no one's ever been convicted of making that exact claim before.

I have yet to read anything about a false claim.

Once again, you think your opinion matters one what a false claim is. You have no evidence that there is a false claim.

"it will give you deeper bass" is not a false claim because there is truth in it.

Say, Im using some really crappy wire that has huge frequence roll off issues. The new monster cable will allow lower frequences through, hence deeper bass. Does that crappy wire exists? I dont own any actually but who knows. But I do own cable that has filters in it so yes the monster cable gives me deeper bass then my cable ;)

The only thing advertising has to do is be able to prove a positive once out of a hundred. Besides, people are so damn caught up in the placebo effect that HALF of them actually believe they hear deeper bass ;)


I can advertise a huge sale @ $.99 to get people into my store. You show up and everything is $5.....you think it was a lie? Nope, I had ONE item on sale for $.99, someone bought it. :D

The law agrees with me


lol, you really are out of touch with reality to believe that. If the law agreed with you. Monster would be in court DAILY!!!

As I said before, stop posting silly opinion, go to BB or CC, tape record the Sales guy saying something you think is a lie...take them to court.

In the end you will get laugh out of the court room for being silly about this ;) It seems this is the only way to get logic into your head about it because you are simply to stubborn to realize the truth.

I can advertise a huge sale @ $.99 to get people into my store. You show up and everything is $5.....you think it was a lie? Nope, I had ONE item on sale for $.99, someone bought it. :D

Reminds me one time when I got hit up by the DA. I ran a newspaper ad in the LA Times where I highlighted about 10 different receivers and speakers. In each, I showed the "Regular Price", and then "Our Sale Price", just like almost every other retailer advertised their product in the newspaper, but being that we were the big fish to fry, the DA came down on my ass and said that the ONLY way that I could advertise that way was if I could prove to him that I ever sold that particular piece of gear at the stated "Regular Price".

Then advertising REALLY became a nightmare when we began advertising cellular. Man, what a pain in the butt.

Its still really simple.....

copper wire is copper wire, you better say something in your advertising to separate you from others or we wont buy your product!In all fairness to Bob, his products are not simply "copper wire".

How about how many times those furniture stores go "out of business"? LOL! :D

In all fairness to Bob, his products are not simply "copper wire".

Sorry, I didnt intend to lump QSC into that at all. I was talking about the cable business.

Im a proud owner of two QSC amps, I love them! :D They give my subs incredible DEEP bass ;)

I retract "pathetically."

By the way, I want to thank all of Monster's defenders for giving me and others a 15-page forum in which to repeatedly bash your beloved company. You can't pay for publicity like that.

It isn't like anyone outside your circle of e-friends pays attention. Everyone else recognizes your posts (and others, you have company) as ill-informed, anti-capitalistic, and rhetoric-laced tripe.

Indeed, exposure like that is priceless.

"With QSC's exclusive PowerLight® switching technology you'll hear ultra-powerful bass and superior highs in every scene.

With technology, DCA amplifiers take your soundtracks to a whole new level. Not only does it give your music bigger bass and cleaner highs, PowerLight also cuts wasted heat and boosts reliability."

ROFL

Im a proud owner of two QSC amps, I love them! :D They give my subs incredible DEEP bass ;)Are you certain it's not "BIGGER" bass? ;)

And how is that relevant to the discussion at hand?

It is relevant, because it is another example of pointless audio statements. It is just as silly as my cable sounds better because it has supper cooper-x atoms that have been cryo-treated.

The claims that monster cable are about as not altogether true as the claims about penis enlargement pills. At some point the consumer has to be responsible for their purchase.

I don't fault monster for presenting their product in the best ( although not completely truthful light ), I fault the consumer for buying it and expecting it to be "better".

It is relevant, because it is another example of pointless audio statements. It is just as silly as my cable sounds better because it has supper cooper-x atoms that have been cryo-treated.

The claims that monster cable are about as not altogether true as the claims about penis enlargement pills. At some point the consumer has to be responsible for their purchase.

I don't fault monster for presenting their product in the best ( although not completely truthful light ), I fault the consumer for buying it and expecting it to be "better".OK

Where did lwien's post about bass tournaments go?

Where did lwien's post about bass tournaments go?

I deleted it and I have absolutely no idea why. :o

I deleted it and I have absolutely no idea why. :oMe either. T'was funny.

I have never praised their product, however, I do praise their marketing success, considering that they have successfully branded their product as Kleenex has to tissue paper. Creating an 800lb gorilla out of wire is no small feat.

And as far as what is similar regarding the marketing of your product to Monsters, tell me how "superior highs in EVERY scene" or "bigger bass" or "cleaner highs" differ from Monster saying that their cables gives you "deeper base".

You did seem to praise their marketing acumen. I don't.

If you believe QSC's and Monster's marketing are similar, maybe you should start a thread on it.

Say, Im using some really crappy wire that has huge frequence roll off issues. The new monster cable will allow lower frequences through, hence deeper bass.

Since all normal cables will pass DC, that's not true. The only way a cable won't pass DC or "deeper bass" frequencies would be for it to inexplicably have some kind of series capacitance.

You did seem to praise their marketing acumen. I don't.

If you believe QSC's and Monster's marketing are similar, maybe you should start a thread on it.

I admire what they have been able to accomplish with their marketing efforts.

And Bob, I don't believe that I need to start another thread on this. I don't mean to imply QSC's and Monster's marketing efforts are exclusively similar in all aspects, but I do feel that ALL marketing efforts do have their similarities, ie, Monster stating that they provide deeper base and QSC stating that they provide "superior highs in EVERY scene" or "bigger bass". In both of these instances, there is an effort to separate their products from others in the marketplace in a way that some may find questionable. No different really than a detergent manufacturer advertising that their product gives you whiter whites ;).

If you believe QSC's and Monster's marketing are similar, maybe you should start a thread on it.Why? He doesn't have an issue with either one's marketing. ;)

.............whiter whites.eracism!

Ok, fine. Here's what I REALLY want to know. Will the same detergent that gives you whiter whites also give you blacker blacks?

I still think MilesDavis and lwien "have a thing goin' on" like ............ me-e-e a-a-and Mrs., Mrs. Jones. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QngHKzWn-6Q

I admire what they have been able to accomplish with their marketing efforts.

As I've said before: You seem to admire their marketing acumen. I don't.

As I've said before: You seem to admire their marketing acumen. I don't.

Please address the similarities in your marketing jargon with Monsters that I mentioned in a few posts above. If you don't admire their marketing acumen, how can you justify that you admire your own.

On another note, marketing a product is soooooo much more than advertising copy. It's packaging, it's sales training, it's dealer and salesmen incentive programs, co-op and quick pay dealer programs, display programs, inventory exchange programs, rep programs, it's press releases, it's PR, it's industry awareness both at CES as well as in industry publications, etc etc etc.

They have done an excellent job in all these respects in marketing their product through B&M retailers and as the old saying goes, the proof is in the pudding, for Monster is to cable what Kleenex is to tissue paper, and accomplishing that is no small feat.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, Bob, but over the years, I've seen some pretty bad business operations and marketing plans both from the manufacturers as well as retailers, and I will always give kudos to a marketing plan that works through creativity, tenacity and a stubbornness not to deviate from that which has defined ones success.

btw, I would say the same things about Bose, although I would NEVER buy Bose or Monster due to the quality versus price variance. Just because I don't fall for their marketing hype does not mean that I don't admire what they have both accomplished.

Please address the similarities in your marketing jargon with Monsters that I mentioned in a few posts above. If you don't admire their marketing acumen, how can you justify that you admire your own.
.

OK I will address it. Below is the page from QSC and the hype they have about cleaner bass etc. The thing QSC does is explain why with real world solutions. Not pie in the sky BS.


From QSC

With technology, DCA amplifiers take your soundtracks to a whole new level. Not only does it give your music bigger bass and cleaner highs, PowerLight also cuts wasted heat and boosts reliability. PowerLight is a switching power supply that provides ample current to the audio power circuitry by charging the supply rails 230,000 times a second through an ultra-low impedance circuit, so unlike high-powered amps with conventional supplies, the audio signal is never starved prematurely, but remains crisp and clean. It virtually eliminates hum and greatly reduces noise, providing a vast dynamic range that can handle the most demanding digital soundtracks without running out of headroom. DCA Series amps also boast a set of useful features such as individually selectable clip limiters and subsonic filters; and stereo, parallel, and bridged mono operation.

claims about penis enlargement pills.


Where???? :D :D

OK I will address it. Below is the page from QSC and the hype they have about cleaner bass etc. The thing QSC does is explain why with real world solutions. Not pie in the sky BS.


From QSC

With technology, DCA amplifiers take your soundtracks to a whole new level. Not only does it give your music bigger bass and cleaner highs, PowerLight also cuts wasted heat and boosts reliability. PowerLight is a switching power supply that provides ample current to the audio power circuitry by charging the supply rails 230,000 times a second through an ultra-low impedance circuit, so unlike high-powered amps with conventional supplies, the audio signal is never starved prematurely, but remains crisp and clean. It virtually eliminates hum and greatly reduces noise, providing a vast dynamic range that can handle the most demanding digital soundtracks without running out of headroom. DCA Series amps also boast a set of useful features such as individually selectable clip limiters and subsonic filters; and stereo, parallel, and bridged mono operation.

Speco, I "can" make the argument, that their amps will NOT take my soundtracks to a whole new level, or that I will get bigger base and cleaner highs and because of that, those statements are totally false.

I can make those arguments, but I won't, just like I won't make the argument that Monster won't give me deeper base.

OK I will address it. Below is the page from QSC and the hype they have about cleaner bass etc. The thing QSC does is explain why with real world solutions. Not pie in the sky BS.


From QSC

With technology, DCA amplifiers take your soundtracks to a whole new level. Not only does it give your music bigger bass and cleaner highs, PowerLight also cuts wasted heat and boosts reliability. PowerLight is a switching power supply that provides ample current to the audio power circuitry by charging the supply rails 230,000 times a second through an ultra-low impedance circuit, so unlike high-powered amps with conventional supplies, the audio signal is never starved prematurely, but remains crisp and clean. It virtually eliminates hum and greatly reduces noise, providing a vast dynamic range that can handle the most demanding digital soundtracks without running out of headroom. DCA Series amps also boast a set of useful features such as individually selectable clip limiters and subsonic filters; and stereo, parallel, and bridged mono operation.OIC. Now I understand how it "gives your music bigger bass". Thanks for clearing that up for me.

claims about penis enlargement pills.


Where???? :D :D

I don't need no stiiiiiiiiinkin' penis enlargement pills.:cool:

Well it all comes down to people are just dumb. If some people want to buy into monster or PSA or whomever snake oil seller I say let them. I am really tired of the argument. I am tired of folks coming here looking for real answers to real questions about claims or cables or X or Y amp and all the real world science and solutions get thrown out. Its just dumb how many people are just duped. As to the OP question, nothing wrong on the monster for tech. Spend the money feel good thats all that matters.
Yes all CD players sound different.

Yes higher priced cables sound better.

Yes all the claims that PSA and MIT make are true.

Yes the clever little clock works.

Yes voodoo is real and science is bad.

Well it all comes down to people are just dumb.OIC

Maybe you should read the lat few pages of the thread. Those of us defending Monster's marketing tactics could give a rat's ass about the company or its products.

But you've seen this whole discussion before. Many times. So, for you, reading the thread is probably useless. We'll just leave it at "it all comes down to people are just dumb". ;)

Well it all comes down to people are just dumb.

Best post in this thread.

Regards,

I just think it's funny that the guy that makes his living in Vegas says this:

Spend the money feel good thats all that matters.

...in a derisive manner.

As I've said before: You seem to admire their marketing acumen. I don't.

Please address the similarities in your marketing jargon with Monsters that I mentioned in a few posts above. If you don't admire their marketing acumen, how can you justify that you admire your own.

On another note, marketing a product is soooooo much more than advertising copy. It's packaging, it's sales training, it's dealer and salesmen incentive programs, co-op and quick pay dealer programs, display programs, inventory exchange programs, rep programs, it's press releases, it's PR, it's industry awareness both at CES as well as in industry publications, etc etc etc.

They have done an excellent job in all these respects in marketing their product through B&M retailers and as the old saying goes, the proof is in the pudding, for Monster is to cable what Kleenex is to tissue paper, and accomplishing that is no small feat.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, Bob, but over the years, I've seen some pretty bad business operations and marketing plans both from the manufacturers as well as retailers, and I will always give kudos to a marketing plan that works through creativity, tenacity and a stubbornness not to deviate from that which has defined ones success.

btw, I would say the same things about Bose, although I would NEVER buy Bose or Monster due to the quality versus price variance. Just because I don't fall for their marketing hype does not mean that I don't admire what they have both accomplished.

If you admire this, you're a part of "everything that is wrong with America." There is way too much of this crap today. Forget honesty, we'll market our way to riches. All we need is a zillion rubes who are too stupid to know the difference and we'll become rich!!!

Is this your definition of success? Overcharging the masses because they don't have the time to know better and you're too greedy to educate them? Give me an effing break. YOU are part of the problem and Bob is right. What you admire is the greed and the demographic analysis it takes to fleece the masses. In this day and age, it's the very definition of "Marketing" and it's ruining this country.

The proof is NOT in the pudding. Very few people these days are technically savvy enough to separate the wheat from the chaff. Most Monster and Bose buyers are NOT savvy enough to read and understand the technical specs. They are suckers to marketing and they LOSE when they open their wallets to these companies.

Prove me wrong.

If you admire this, you're a part of "everything that is wrong with America." There is way too much of this crap today. Forget honesty, we'll market our way to riches. All we need is a zillion rubes who are too stupid to know the difference and we'll become rich!!!

Is this your definition of success? Overcharging the masses because they don't have the time to know better and you're too greedy to educate them? Give me an effing break. YOU are part of the problem and Bob is right. What you admire is the greed and the demographic analysis it takes to fleece the masses. In this day and age, it's the very definition of "Marketing" and it's ruining this country.

The proof is NOT in the pudding. Very few people these days are technically savvy enough to separate the wheat from the chaff. Most Monster and Bose buyers are NOT savvy enough to read and understand the technical specs. They are suckers to marketing and they LOSE when they open their wallets to these companies.

Prove me wrong.

Oh God. We got ourselves another victim here.

It is NOT up to the marketeer to educate anyone. It is up to the consumer to educate themselves BEFORE they make a purchase.

Marketing isn't ruining our country. If there is anything that is ruining our country, it is laziness and an unwillingness to take responsibility for ones own actions. It's called accountability, and for some strange reason, we, as a society, seem to be more than willing to play the victim rather than take responsibility for our own actions, so instead, we'll blame the big corporate bad guys for not educating us and put the blame on THEM for our ruination.

OMG, chicken little. The SKY is falling. Down with those nasty corporations for they will be the ruination of us all. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES !!! :rolleyes:

btw, the marketing that you described above is NOT an American invention. Marketing like this has been around since the beginning of time and will continue to be around long after you and I are gone.

Hell, look at the Ferengi !!! ;)

If you admire this, you're a part of "everything that is wrong with America." There is way too much of this crap today. Forget honesty, we'll market our way to riches. All we need is a zillion rubes who are too stupid to know the difference and we'll become rich!!!

People around here don't listen; they wait for their turn to talk. If they had, they would have picked up on the essential point that ends this debate.

Monster markets at the end of the day against the "courtesy cables" that come with CE gear. That is why their displays are set up the way they are, and why they use the verbiage they use. In fact, many of their products DO outperform many others, but that is relative and not directly claimed. They do know better believe it or not.

Is this your definition of success? Overcharging the masses because they don't have the time to know better and you're too greedy to educate them?

Well, Monster is a corporation, not a charity.

Give me an effing break. YOU are part of the problem and Bob is right. What you admire is the greed and the demographic analysis it takes to fleece the masses. In this day and age, it's the very definition of "Marketing" and it's ruining this country.

The whole thrust of this is the presumption of dishonesty. Nothing has been established to that effect, other than individual biases that usually have to do with lawsuits and not performance.

The proof is NOT in the pudding. Very few people these days are technically savvy enough to separate the wheat from the chaff.

...And many that think they are are wrong...

Most Monster and Bose buyers are NOT savvy enough to read and understand the technical specs. They are suckers to marketing and they LOSE when they open their wallets to these companies.

Prove me wrong.

You prove yourself wrong.

Bose and Monster are not similar, other than some of the wording used in their marketing I suppose (I'm being generous since your debates need some assistance).

Bose has no specs that one could consider flattering. Monster however does, and that is where the two companies part ways. It is thoroughly dishonest to associate the two.

Prove me wrong.

Dont have too since you didnt post anything really meaningful.

Greed and capitalism is good, you dont want it any other way unless you are a lazy, halfwit who really chooses not to live the dream. Talk to someone that has lived in the other world, you may think capitalism and free markets are not good but trust me they are far, far better then other options.

NO ONE HAS EVER PUT A GUN TO ANYONE'S HEAD TO BUY MONSTER PRODUCTS. Its really funny BECAUSE Im the freaking Canadian liberal minded individual living in the south and I think you guys are being a bunch of babies its pure laziness and stupidity if someone just buys without caring about the truth....Once again for the 100th time, you are a complete dumbass if you trust ANY SALESPERSON. Its simple, just dont trust them, dont listen to what they say because its BS anyways.....how hard can it be?????


Is this your definition of success? Overcharging the masses because they don't have the time to know better and you're too greedy to educate them? Give me an effing break.

Success is WHATEVER you define has success, some define success as $$$, others define it as "amount of love", others define it has "number of published documents", others define it as trophies, gold medals, championship banners.....etc, etc.

There is simply no single definition of success.

btw, companies are not in the business of education either! Its NOT THEIR JOB!! The simply sell products to make a profit.

The simply sell products to make a profit.

Actually Monster does do a great job of reminding folks to not use the garb that comes in the box, or the RCA-branded crud at Rat-Shaq. You'd be shocked and amazed what a challenge that can be.

BTW - Not all salespeople are in the business of BS. Remember, drones at big-box stores really aren't professional salespeople... But I digress.

BTW - Not all salespeople are in the business of BS. Remember, drones at big-box stores really aren't professional salespeople... But I digress.


In my books they all are and therefore I take what they say with a grain of salt ;)

and I have friends who are in the sales world :D

EDIT: Yes that is an over generalizing statement...I feel safe with that opinion though ;)

I don't know about the QSC amps; but the QSC DSP322UA, when used by a trained professional, does make the bass better, the room sound better, and can even overcome the adverse effects of those black boxes (tone controls) on some speaker cables. :) In fact, it can overcome the limitation of having only two independent side surround channels.

I agree that the consumer should educate himself or herself, for the consumer is ultimately responsible for what he or she chooses to buy. Too many marketeers, though, try to interfere with that education.

Actually Monster does do a great job of reminding folks to not use the garb that comes in the box, or the RCA-branded crud at Rat-Shaq. You'd be shocked and amazed what a challenge that can be.

That's a "service" to Monster and the retailer, not to the consumer.

I don't know about the QSC amps; but the QSC DSP322UA, when used by a trained professional, does make the bass better, the room sound better.......

"Does" or "can"? HUGE difference.

Does implies "always"

Also, the word "better" when it pertains to something that we perceive with our senses, is subjective.

Bose has no specs that one could consider flattering. Monster however does, and that is where the two companies part ways. It is thoroughly dishonest to associate the two.

It is not at all dishonest to associate the two.

1) The margins are higher with Monster than with Bose products.

2) Monster provides no specs whatsoever, which is exactly the same as Bose, which likewise provides no performance specs on their consumer gear. Suggesting otherwise is dishonest on your part.

I agree that the consumer should educate himself or herself, for the consumer is ultimately responsible for what he or she chooses to buy. Too many marketeers, though, try to interfere with that education.

The job of a marketeer is to successfully market their product and one of the primary ways to accomplish this is to separate their product from the rest in the marketplace, and present their product in such a way as to "seduce" a consumer to buy that product. You're company, QSC does that, as well as just about every other manufacturer or retailer. Is that what you call "interfering" with their education? If it is, than again I state that it is at the CORE of ALL successful marketing.

We did a focus group one time with the LA Times. We asked a group of consumers which ad would motivate them to buy from us. The focus group did not work. Why? Because we found out (and should have realized), that most people do not want to admit that ANY kind of advertising would motivate them to buy anything, for THEY wanted and desired to be the ones in control and not be manipulated by marketing or advertising and I do think that it is THIS that is at play here with those that are so vehemently against Monsters advertising methods. The fact is that most all of us ARE manipulated by marketing and advertising to one extent or another, regardless if we want to admit it or not.

It is not at all dishonest to associate the two.

1) The margins are higher with Monster than with Bose products.



:confused:

It is not at all dishonest to associate the two.

1) The margins are higher with Monster than with Bose products.

Margins are the retailer's concern, not the consumer's; and regardless is immaterial to the issue. Perhaps "ill-informed" is more appropriate.

2) Monster provides no specs whatsoever, which is exactly the same as Bose, which likewise provides no performance specs on their consumer gear. Suggesting otherwise is dishonest on your part.

Bose and Monster have been examined. We all know how an Acoustimass measures, and Monster's have been scoped as well. Go find the graphs and stop with the obfuscation.

"Does" or "can"? HUGE difference.

Does implies "always"

Also, the word "better" when it pertains to something that we perceive with our senses, is subjective.
-----
I wrote "does" for a specific reason and modified the word with the phrase "when used by a trained professional". Taking terms out of context in order to mince words would be an example of "not professional".

"Always" is clearly the implication because: (1) I've never experienced a case where there was not improvement; and, (2) a "trained professional" would never use a DSP322UA in a case where it would not be the appropriate solution to the problem being addressed. If the problem is not solved, one would need to question the credentials of the purported "trained professional".

"Better" can be subjective, on the other hand, a "trained professional" would have measurable results. Since we're discussing play back spaces, "not better" could imply any number of evils including poor source material...playback spaces are calibrated to a technical specification which is either met, or not and "subjective" is not part of the technical specification.

Now, if there is something substantive to discuss, we can move forward. The English and Etymology Departments are in the building across the Quad. [Note: Entomology is in the basement of the same building. I have been advised Entomology has a presence in the Computer Sciences building as well.]

The moment a piece of marketing introduces an adjective like "better" they're off the hook. You cannot quantify better in all cases, and it is subjective.

IE "BetterCables.com"--Which nobody here assaults.:rolleyes:

You cannot quantify better in all cases, and it is subjective.

If one defines the term "better" then one can refute that definition (or not) in an objective sense with convincing evidence. No definition is, of course, tantamount to subjective criticism. The burden of proof lies on the claimant making the positive claim. :)

Regards,

"Always" is clearly the implication because: (1) I've never experienced a case where there was not improvement; and, (2) a "trained professional" would never use a DSP322UA in a case where it would not be the appropriate solution to the problem being addressed. If the problem is not solved, one would need to question the credentials of the purported "trained professional".



"Trained Professional" is the safety net here, so yes, I concur with your statements.

btw, Dennis, what does the following have to do with what we are discussing here......."The English and Etymology Departments are in the building across the Quad. [Note: Entomology is in the basement of the same building. I have been advised Entomology has a presence in the Computer Sciences building as well." Just not quite sure as to where you are coming from with this.

If one defines the term "better" then one can refute that definition (or not) in an objective sense with convincing evidence. No definition is, of course, tantamount to subjective criticism. The burden of proof lies on the claimant making the positive claim. :)

Regards,

Then who is BetterCables better than? If we are to assume associations and comparisons, we all know that Monster is one of the internet's favorite whipping posts. Who do you assume they mean?:rolleyes:

Let's try to be objective here, and ignore our little e-favorites solely to bash an established company.

Is that what you call "interfering" with their education?

I am obviously not that dense.

You may praise marketing as "successful" by the single metric of the marketer's financial benefit--i.e., "anything for a buck". But not everyone believes in purely self-serving criteria. I agree with you that consumers should educate themselves. But marketers who interfere with that education by clouding the waters with pseudo-science and technobabble deserve the scorn that thinking people heap on them.

I am obviously not that dense.

You may praise marketing as "successful" by the single metric of the marketer's financial benefit--i.e., "anything for a buck". But not everyone believes in purely self-serving criteria. I agree with you that consumers should educate themselves. But marketers who interfere with that education by clouding the waters with pseudo-science and technobabble deserve the scorn that thinking people heap on them.

Then I have to refer you back to post #516. While QSC stating that they provide "superior highs in EVERY scene" or "bigger bass" may not be pseudo-science or technobabble, it IS questionable as to, if in fact, those statements will pertain to everyone who purchases your product as it implies. So is technobabble worse than falsely seducing your customer into purchasing your product?

See, in my mind, both of these tactics are self-serving in that they are doing nothing more than simply trying to generate profits for their companies. I see nothing wrong with a company who is purely self-serving in generating those profits. I also see nothing wrong with a consumer doing what they need to do to isolate themselves from these tactics and it is discussions such as these that further those efforts, which is a good thing.

The moment a piece of marketing introduces an adjective like "better" they're off the hook. You cannot quantify better in all cases, and it is subjective.

IE "BetterCables.com"--Which nobody here assaults.:rolleyes:

That's just silly. :confused: Very few people if any would be fooled by the name of the company. Like Best Buy. I think everybody here realizes that they have some good buys, and occasionally they may have a "best" buy, but a lot of their stuff isn't a "best" buy or even a "good" buy. :rolleyes:

Note the use of "Best" in their company name

That's a "service" to Monster and the retailer, not to the consumer.

Yes, because the shoestring that components come with is the interconnect of choice.:rolleyes:

I am obviously not that dense.

You may praise marketing as "successful" by the single metric of the marketer's financial benefit--i.e., "anything for a buck".

You could use some marketing help in your company if that's the mindset of QSC.

ALL marketers look at are impressions first, and turns second. The job of marketing is to drive consumers to the company to purchase goods or services. BTW - that is how most companies measure their success. If customers are happy and the process is within the rules even better.

But not everyone believes in purely self-serving criteria. I agree with you that consumers should educate themselves. But marketers who interfere with that education by clouding the waters with pseudo-science and technobabble deserve the scorn that thinking people heap on them.

The people that scorn those companies typically understand neither the process, needs of either company, and typically their own. Sad but fact. Professional cynics ftl.

That's just silly. :confused: Very few people if any would be fooled by the name of the company. Like Best Buy. I think everybody here realizes that they have some good buys, and occasionally they may have a "best" buy, but a lot of their stuff isn't a "best" buy or even a "good" buy. :rolleyes:

Note the use of "Best" in their company name

Really? It's less silly to actually incorporate a performance claim into a company's name vs placing it on the package for marketing purposes? You ignore that blatant claim and nitpick Monster's internal business decisions?

I mean c'mon. The passes some of you give these e-companies is awesome for entertainment value.:D

Oh God. We got ourselves another victim here.

It is NOT up to the marketeer to educate anyone. It is up to the consumer to educate themselves BEFORE they make a purchase.


We have a multitude of consumer laws and agencies to oversee false advertising and to make sure that products are safe and do what they are advertised to do. So while it is not the marketer's job to educate, it certainly is not their job to lie.

To the extent that Monster's advertising and sales pitch is legal, illegal, or in the grey area is more a matter of the fact that hi-fi cable is not at the forefront of consumer complaints. Since the average consumer wouldn't know they just got fleeced, they aren't going to complain to anybody.

As for consumers educating themselves, you live in a dream world. It's not reasonable to expect an average consumer to research a relatively small purchase that they may only make every 25 or 30 years, if not longer, especially when the underlying principles are very technical.

Ever hear that old saying, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me?" Shame on Monster.

Really? It's less silly to actually incorporate a performance claim into a company's name vs placing it on the package for marketing purposes? You ignore that blatant claim and nitpick Monster's internal business decisions?


Yes, really. And are you saying that you object to the name "Best Buy" or are you just embarrassed that I called you out.

We have a multitude of consumer laws and agencies to oversee false advertising and to make sure that products are safe and do what they are advertised to do. So while it is not the marketer's job to educate, it certainly is not their job to lie.

If you believe that Monster lies in their marketing of their product, than please consider that when you look at the nuts and bolts of ANY and ALL advertising, one could argue that they ALL lie. I have said this before in this thread numerous times and I will say it again. Just about ALL advertising and marketing have facets of deception. The only thing that is in question is how you want to rationalize that deception.


To the extent that Monster's advertising and sales pitch is legal, illegal, or in the grey area is more a matter of the fact that hi-fi cable is not at the forefront of consumer complaints. Since the average consumer wouldn't know they just got fleeced, they aren't going to complain to anybody.

Two things come into play here. One, is that the DA does NOT NEED a consumer complaint to go after anyone on false advertising. They have watchdog groups that looks for stuff like this.

Secondly, it's not just the consumers who may complain. What about their competitors who would very much like to see Monster just go away.


As for consumers educating themselves, you live in a dream world. It's not reasonable to expect an average consumer to research a relatively small purchase that they may only make every 25 or 30 years, if not longer, especially when the underlying principles are very technical.


Well then, that is the consumers choice. Let me ask you a question. How many years does one take to replace their refrigerator or their mattress, or their washer and dryer? Not very often, and yet Consumer Reports devotes a lot of space to reviewing these products and they wouldn't do that if consumers were not interested in doing a bit of research.

If I go into a Best Buy, and they tell me that I need a 180 dollar Monster HDMI cable for my new HDTV, I have two choices. I can just purchase it on their recommendation, or do a bit of research. And research may only take a few minutes on the internet or a few minutes asking opinions of family or friends who may know more than I do about this product BEFORE I make the purchase.

I don't expect the average consumer to research anything. That is totally their choice. The fact is, is that marketing and advertising campaigns are designed around the fact that the average consumer does NOT do any research. They bank on it.

Now tell me again why I live in a dream world?

I don't expect the average consumer to research anything. That is totally their choice. The fact is, is that marketing and advertising campaigns are designed around the fact that the average consumer does NOT do any research. They bank on it.

Now tell me again why I live in a dream world?

You just answered your own question. :p You say consumer should educate themselves. To quote an expert on the subject, "The fact is, is that marketing and advertising campaigns are designed around the fact that the average consumer does NOT do any research. They bank on it."

We should all watch our diets, excercise more, get 8 hours sleep, obey the speed limits at all times, etc. Those types of things can actually have an impact on your health. Does that average person do those things? Thinking a system is okay based on what the average person does, when in fact the average person does not conform to your expectations is living in a dream world according to me.

Well then, that is the consumers choice. Let me ask you a question. How many years does one take to replace their refrigerator or their mattress, or their washer and dryer? Not very often, and yet Consumer Reports devotes a lot of space to reviewing these products and they wouldn't do that if consumers were not interested in doing a bit of research.


What is the readership of Consumer Reports? You will answer your own question if you look at their subscriber numbers. The readers of Consumer Reports are far from the average consumer. And as a sidenote, if you look at their reviews of hi-fi, stereo, speaker, etc equipment, they are far from the standard of the average AVS poster. :D

If you believe that Monster lies in their marketing of their product, than please consider that when you look at the nuts and bolts of ANY and ALL advertising, one could argue that they ALL lie. I have said this before in this thread numerous times and I will say it again. Just about ALL advertising and marketing have facets of deception. The only thing that is in question is how you want to rationalize that deception.

I can't say I have seen or read all advertsing so there may be somebody out there who doesn't lie, but I will agree that it is a pretty high percentage, however, I would place Monster on the high end of scale. Purely bargain and middle of the road products don't usually claim to be better, usually cheaper, and maybe as good as the more expensive brands.

And as far as lies (aka marketing) go, are all lies the same or are some more egregious?

You just answered your own question. :p You say consumer should educate themselves. To quote an expert on the subject, "The fact is, is that marketing and advertising campaigns are designed around the fact that the average consumer does NOT do any research. They bank on it."

How in the hell did I just answer my own question? Just because a consumer "should" educate themselves, doesn't mean that they do. I'm beginning to feel that I'm in the "Who's on first" Abbot and Costello routine.


We should all watch our diets, excercise more, get 8 hours sleep, obey the speed limits at all times, etc. Those types of things can actually have an impact on your health. Does that average person do those things? Thinking a system is okay based on what the average person does, when in fact the average person does not conform to your expectations is living in a dream world according to me.

And where in the hell did I ever say that the "system is okay based on what the average person does"?

If you are going to continue to misquote me and/or misinterpret what I am saying, than continuing to debate with you is fruitless.

And as far as lies (aka marketing) go, are all lies the same or are some more egregious?

Like I said, it all comes down to how one wants to rationalize the deception.

than continuing to debate with you is fruitless.

lol, you know this was a silly debate on page 2 ;)

Some people will argue no matter what the facts are, we know the truth and life is good for the rest of us. :D

Yeah, penn, I think you're right.

Hmmm.........It looks like there were about 6 people here who just refuse to get it.

Perfect.

Ya know what I think? I think that all 6 of them should all go on this show where they have to repeat a tongue twister and if they continue to get it wrong, like they are doing here..............they suffer the consequences. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmMEddx9w-I

(Just a bit of comic relief....;))

If you are going to continue to misquote me and/or misinterpret what I am saying, than continuing to debate with you is fruitless.

Since you have nothing more to add to the discussion, I would have to agree with you.

Yeah, penn, I think you're right.

Hmmm.........It looks like there were about 6 people here who just refuse to get it.


Your math seems to be off. I count only about 3 of you who don't get it. :rolleyes:

Your math seems to be off. I count only about 3 of you who don't get it.

umm....

- thousands of happy Monster products owners
- ZERO court cases based on illegal Marketing tatics.
- I count 3 guys that think Monster stole their grandma's money.


I think we have a winner here ;)

Its simply for the 100th time.... Those who dont like Monsters marketing need to GET OVER IT!!! You can not do squat about it, you have only silly opinion in an online forum and that is it! IF you really, really think you are right then just go and create a lawsuit.

Of course you will be laughed out of court ;)

Btw, I dont give a crap if some kid or some grandma spends $100 on cables just based on someone saying they are "Better than....", No one should give a crap, its their money, their choice.....NO ONE put a gun to their head. They have the ability to learn more if they CHOOSE too. They choose not too and that is OKAY. Also, guess what? They are happy with their purchase. Why do you care what they spent? I only care if they ask!

Yes, really. And are you saying that you object to the name "Best Buy" or are you just embarrassed that I called you out.

Best Buy falls under the same category, but I choose to stick to cable manufacturers. You know, on-topic like some of you have trouble with.

And who did you "call out?":rolleyes:

delusions of importance

I see nothing wrong with a company who is purely self-serving in generating those profits. I also see nothing wrong with a consumer doing what they need to do to isolate themselves from these tactics and it is discussions such as these that further those efforts, which is a good thing.

I don't agree with sentence #1. I agree with #2. I scorn companies that use #1 to interfere with #2.

Yes, because the shoestring that components come with is the interconnect of choice.:rolleyes:

The "shoestring" that comes with components may not be pretty but is not necessarily deficient.

You could use some marketing help in your company if that's the mindset of QSC.

So who cares whether you think a company needs some marketing help?

I see nothing wrong with a company who is purely self-serving in generating those profits.

I agree with this!

I could not care how Monster markets their products. To me the only thing stopping me from buying Monster products is that I believe their prices are 3-5 times too high.


I honestly dont care how many companies market their products. If I buy something I either just want it and I buy it or I do research and then buy something. I have never blamed marketing for any bad buying experience. I would feel like a fool to blame something so trivial!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwien
I see nothing wrong with a company who is purely self-serving in generating those profits. I also see nothing wrong with a consumer doing what they need to do to isolate themselves from these tactics and it is discussions such as these that further those efforts, which is a good thing.


I don't agree with sentence #1. I agree with #2. I scorn companies that use #1 to interfere with #2.

Interfere? How does a companies marketing efforts "interfere" with a consumer desiring to do some research? The companies marketing efforts are doing nothing more than offering THEIR perspective on their product, which is just one of many perspectives that can be gained thru self-education. They are not interfering in the least.

Can someone post a company that isnt self-serving in generating profits???

Its business 101?

I think the problem here is that Bob Lee is an engineer commenting on marketing practices. I believe that if I, a one time marketing manager, tried commenting on engineering principles, than I too would seem a bit out of touch with reality within the engineering world.

Interfere? How does a companies marketing efforts "interfere" with a consumer desiring to do some research? The companies marketing efforts are doing nothing more than offering THEIR perspective on their product, which is just one of many perspectives that can be gained thru self-education. They are not interfering in the least.

When a "white paper" delivered by a company is designed such that the non technical reader believes the content as accurate, then the use of the white paper to "educate" the consumer is indeed interfering with the learning of accurate information.

I believe that was what Bob was referring. And I tend to agree with him on this point.

Cheers, John

When a "white paper" delivered by a company is designed such that the non technical reader believes the content as accurate, then the use of the white paper to "educate" the consumer is indeed interfering with the learning of accurate information.

I believe that was what Bob was referring. And I tend to agree with him on this point.

Cheers, John

Since when does the average, non-technical reader EVER have any DESIRE to read any companies "white" papers?

On another note, when one researches ANY subject, they will come across accurate as well as inaccurate information. Inaccurate information does not interfere with the research. It is, in fact, through that research, that one can gain the information to make a judgement call as to what is accurate and what is inaccurate. And I think that with just a bit of common sense, one should hold ANY information that is published by the manufacturer regarding their product to be suspect and should not be taken as literal truth until further research from other sources are done, no?

Since when does the average, non-technical reader EVER have any DESIRE to read any companies "white" papers?

Whenever they wish to learn. (I'm not saying the content is correct)



On another note, when one researches ANY subject, they will come across accurate as well as inaccurate information. Inaccurate information does not interfere with the research.

It certainly does, specifically when the reader is unable to distinguish accurate from inaccurate.
It is, in fact, through that research, that one can gain the information to make a judgement call as to what is accurate and what is inaccurate.

Read Hawksford's "paper" on skin effect, published in 1985. While I certainly am able to distinguish fact from fiction (or error) within that article, I challenge any non technical person (and even the majority of technical people) to figure out where the errors are.

So how does one use "judgement" to discern the accuracy of it? E/M theory is far beyond most people's ability to distinguish fact from fiction.



And I think that with just a bit of common sense, one should hold ANY information that is published by the manufacturer regarding their product to be suspect and should not be taken as literal truth until further research from other sources are done, no?

Common sense can be of no use when it comes to Maxwell's equations and their application....yet many of the articles or white papers, or manu's "literature" purports to explain them in terms a layman can understand..

Given today's "sources", where does one go for accurate info??

Cheers, John

The "shoestring" that comes with components may not be pretty but is not necessarily deficient.

I don't care if it's pretty either. But part of the reason why it's shoestring is no shielding and junk connectors. The relates directly to efficacy at its most base level.

So who cares whether you think a company needs some marketing help?

Clearly not you guys.

I think the problem here is that Bob Lee is an engineer commenting on marketing practices. I believe that if I, a one time marketing manager, tried commenting on engineering principles, than I too would seem a bit out of touch with reality within the engineering world.

Well said. Engineers commenting on these forums is always amusing anyway.

Whenever they wish to learn. (I'm not saying the content is correct)

It certainly does, specifically when the reader is unable to distinguish accurate from inaccurate.

Read Hawksford's "paper" on skin effect, published in 1985. While I certainly am able to distinguish fact from fiction (or error) within that article, I challenge any non technical person (and even the majority of technical people) to figure out where the errors are.

So how does one use "judgement" to discern the accuracy of it? E/M theory is far beyond most people's ability to distinguish fact from fiction.

Common sense can be of no use when it comes to Maxwell's equations and their application....yet many of the articles or white papers, or manu's "literature" purports to explain them in terms a layman can understand..

Given today's "sources", where does one go for accurate info??

Cheers, John


Here, of course.;)

I believe were talking about the average joe consumer here, not ones who are seeking "deep" scientific data.

I don't believe that average joe consumer would seek out "white papers" or any other such data intensive reads as you have described above. I do however, believe that if so inclined, they will do a bit of research by trying to understand what is written on the packaging, by reading some ads, by talking to the salesman, by talking to a friend or a family member who they feel may know more about the product that they are considering purchasing than they do, and to go on the internet to forums such as this to ask questions.

So in this context, I don't believe that Monster's white paper is interfering with anything.

Well said. Engineers commenting on these forums is always amusing anyway.

LOL!!!
So are comments/opinions from self-proclaimed A/V designers! :D

Naw, I think that Engineers and Programmers have been more successful in creating their own alternate realities ;).

Hmmmm.........I wonder if they feel the same way about those who work in the sales, advertising and marketing arenas. Long time ago, I used to work on the sales floor of a stereo store in Canoga Park, Calif. Anytime the JPL engineers would come in to look around, I'd make a bee-line for the stockroom. lol

I believe were talking about the average joe consumer here, not ones who are seeking "deep" scientific data.

The manu's don't give any data.

They explain how skin effect alters the sound..they explain how grain boundaries alter the sound..they explain how the prop velocity of the cable "slows down" the details...



I don't believe that average joe consumer would seek out "white papers" or any other such data intensive reads as you have described above.

You're new here, ain't ya?

I do however, believe that if so inclined, they will do a bit of research by trying to understand what is written on the packaging, by reading some ads, by talking to the salesman, by talking to a friend or a family member who they feel may know more about the product that they are considering purchasing than they do, and to go on the internet to forums such as this to ask questions.

So in this context, I don't believe that Monster's white paper is interfering with anything.

Monster's white paper? What white paper? Geeze, did they try to explain something?

Cheers, John

You're new here, ain't ya?

Monster's white paper? What white paper? Geeze, did they try to explain something?

Cheers, John

Post #575? :confused:

I'm not as new here as you ;)

Post #575? :confused:

What is the confusion? I did not specify any specific white paper..did monster publish one??



I'm not as new here as you ;)

Not sure...don't care.

The point is, you seem to believe everybody can "research" via whatever means, and be able to distinguish real from fantasy.

That is incorrect.

You disagreed with Bob Lee with respect to how the marketing blurbs do as a disservice to understanding. You seem to believe that with sufficient "research", all is well.

I wish it were so. Bob is correct.

Cheers, John

Best Buy falls under the same category, but I choose to stick to cable manufacturers.

Wow, just wow.

You disagreed with Bob Lee with respect to how the marketing blurbs do as a disservice to understanding. You seem to believe that with sufficient "research", all is well.

I wish it were so. Bob is correct.

Cheers, John

Ya know, my purpose here is not to prove Bob wrong.

My purpose is twofold.

First and foremost, is that I just enjoy debating. I'll even play the devils advocate if it's a subject that I can sink my teeth into.

Secondly, is that if I can just open up an eye or two of even just a few people that they SHOULDN'T trust what salespeople tell them and that they SHOULDN'T trust what manufacturers tell them, but instead to take the initiative to do a bit of research, then offering up my opinions here is not just a self-serving exercise. BUT, if they chose not to do any research, which is also ok, than also choose to take accountability for your actions rather than blaming someone else for your misfortune in purchasing a product that is either overpriced for what it offers, or is the wrong product for what you want it to do.

Monster Cable, to me, is nothing more than a convenient vehicle here in which to discuss these issues.

That's really it in a nutshell.

- thousands of happy Monster products owners


Maybe millions. And just about all of them totally ignorant that they overpaid. How many would be happy versus unhappy then?

- ZERO court cases based on illegal Marketing tatics.

The marketing is unethical IMO. That's enough to bash Monster in my book. As for zero cases, have you run a search on every local court case in the world where Monster sells. Even then, there may have been sealed settlements made that are not public knowledge.


- I count 3 guys that think Monster stole their grandma's money.

If you want to do a poll about whether Monster steals money from Grandma, be my guest. You aren't going to be on the winning side of that poll.

Monster did NOT STEAL the money from Grandma. Grandma GAVE them her money. Ya gotta give Grandma a bit more credit than that. ;)

Wow, just wow.

???

Not sure what that response is, other than code language for "I got nothin.":rolleyes:

I was pretty much agreeing with the idea that Best Buy is in the same boat, but was tying not to extend the debate too far afield.

LOL!!!
So are comments/opinions from self-proclaimed A/V designers! :D

This is AVScience.com, not NerdsFeelingWanted.com:D

I just thought since guys like me actually are in the industry you outsiders ogle over, there might be a little respect. What was I thinking.

Maybe millions. And just about all of them totally ignorant that they overpaid. How many would be happy versus unhappy then?

Well their systems are far more reliable on average, so probably they would think they didn't overpay.

The marketing is unethical IMO. That's enough to bash Monster in my book. As for zero cases, have you run a search on every local court case in the world where Monster sells. Even then, there may have been sealed settlements made that are not public knowledge.

Yes, they're top secret.:rolleyes:

If you want to do a poll about whether Monster steals money from Grandma, be my guest. You aren't going to be on the winning side of that poll.

Maybe not in Seattle or San Francisco, but places where capitalism is embraced I think most people would look at Monster and ask what your problem is.

I embrace capitalism. I also embrace an informed constituency.

I just thought since guys like me actually are in the industry you outsiders ogle over, there might be a little respect. What was I thinking.

Oh really? :rolleyes:
Why don't you share your credentials and some customer references (as I and others have requested numerous times)? Then you may get a little (albeit very little) respect. :p

Maybe millions. And just about all of them totally ignorant that they overpaid. How many would be happy versus unhappy then?

I do agree that they are totally uneducated about the the science of A/V and I KNOW they DID overpay but how does that equate to anything? Except for the fact that Monster does not market to us.

How many WANT to know the science? I suspect a very, very small percentage. I would bet 95%+ just want something that works and they dont want to spend hours researching. I dont know of ONE friend or family member that knows about monoprice.com other then when I tell them, I dont know about ONE friend or family member that thinks Monster is overpriced or BOSE is complete crap, they only would know if I told them. I have too many people too count that just dont know anything about it. Are they ignorant about it? IMO, NO!! They choose not to consume their time with the details, way over 90% of the population is just like them and NOT LIKE ANYONE HERE!!!

You know I spend time learning about AV stuff because it a hobby.....scratch that....its sort of an addiction! ;) but not everyone wants to learn about AV it takes time to learn about things and people just dont have that time, the cost for them to learn could be greater then the cost to just buy the product.


BTW, Ignorant is a really bad choice of words..

One thing that is wrong with Monster from a technical standpoint is a tendency to shed strands. It becomes necessary to re-strip the ends after changing speakers as few as 2 or 3 times. I have never had a similar issue with any other brand of speaker wire.

When a "white paper" delivered by a company is designed such that the non technical reader believes the content as accurate, then the use of the white paper to "educate" the consumer is indeed interfering with the learning of accurate information.


You guys kill me, it went from Package, to BestBuy "saleskids" and now on to "white Papers". Wow, if you can not win the arguement change the arguement :D

Its even crazy to think that this thread was a simple question "Ignoring price, do Monster products work well". Some posted some issues which is great to know but in general the product works flawlessly......Somehow extremists get on here and post hate (I call it ENVY) against Monster Marketing.

20 pages later, the arguement is still circular and people are stubborn. I want court cases, legal facts to back up your opinions!!! I want true scientific studies to prove that Monster is not better then ANY SINGLE cable out there (there are a lot of choices, good luck). I have already agreed with the fact that Monster isnt better then any other 'common' cable so dont bother with that arguement but Im sure Monster can show scenarios even though wrong in your eyes will be right in the court of law. Is that ethically right? The court decides that and ultimately the public that buys their products and the funny thing here is that it discludes everyone in this thread. ;)

One thing that is wrong with Monster from a technical standpoint is a tendency to shed strands. It becomes necessary to re-strip the ends after changing speakers as few as 2 or 3 times. I have never had a similar issue with any other brand of speaker wire.

I think this is more about AV cables not speaker wire.

You guys kill me, it went from Package, to BestBuy "saleskids" and now on to "white Papers". Wow, if you can not win the arguement change the arguement :D

The sequence was quite logical as far as I can see....discussion of ""Monster cable from a technical perspective"" does indeed include the contrast between how the product performs vs what it has been portrayed as being capable of.

I spoke of "white papers" only because it is one method used by manu's to pitch their product...and it is a vehicle used to portray a products technical merits..

To me, it is not a case of "winning" an argument..so an accusation that I am attempting to change the argument is an inaccurate one.

Cheers, John

I spoke of "white papers" only because it is one method used by manu's to pitch their product...and it is a vehicle used to portray a products technical merits..

To me, it is not a case of "winning" an argument..so an accusation that I am attempting to change the argument is an inaccurate one

it is ONLY an argument and you are trying to win it...unsuccessful but hey, you need to argue somewhere ;)

I just want to know what part of the white paper is "Illegal" marketing? because in the end that is what this is all about, some of you think Monster performs "Illegal" marketing, the rest of us just think you are crazy.

Please do not slide back to those "ethic" or "moral" subjective words because they mean nothing in the sense of business law.

it is ONLY an argument and you are trying to win it...unsuccessful but hey, you need to argue somewhere ;)

Really? What is it you think I'm trying to win?

I just want to know what part of the white paper is "Illegal" marketing? because in the end that is what this is all about, some of you think Monster performs "Illegal" marketing, the rest of us just think you are crazy.

Ah, are you trying to badger me into a position I have not taken? I've not stated anything about "illegal" anything, so please don't try to put words in my mouth

Please do not slide back to those "ethic" or "moral" subjective words because they mean nothing in the sense of business law.

Hmmm..I also don't recall saying anything about ethics nor morals. Could you point out where I did?

You seem to be arguing with somebody else..

Cheers, John

Hmmm..I also don't recall saying anything about ethics nor morals. Could you point out where I did?

You seem to be arguing with somebody else..

Im lumping you in with all the arguements about Monster Marketing being so wrong. Dont know if you said it, dont really care. Not sure what you are trying to prove either now.

What position do you have? What are you trying to point out with the "white papers".

Really? What is it you think I'm trying to win?

What is your purpose of posting in an opinion thread if you dont have an opinion you would like to prove?...."prove" meaning "win"


More or less the debate here in my opinon is that Monster's marketing is illegal vs Monster's marketing is okay. What other debate is there?

Im lumping you in with all the arguements about Monster Marketing being so wrong. Dont know if you said it, dont really care. Not sure what you are trying to prove either now.

What position do you have? What are you trying to point out with the "white papers".

So, let's recap..

1. You don't know what, if anything, I've said...but yet you lumped me into a category of people that are either on one side of the fence or the other..at least I think that's what you said..
2. You've attributed the verbage "illegal", "ethical", "morals" to me, yet you now admit you don't know if I've stated anything like that. (Hint..I haven't)
3. Now you ask my position?


Do you think it might have been better to ask that first? Or would that be too logical?:p

As I stated......""When a "white paper" delivered by a company is designed such that the non technical reader believes the content as accurate, then the use of the white paper to "educate" the consumer is indeed interfering with the learning of accurate information.

I believe that was what Bob was referring. And I tend to agree with him on this point.""
What is your purpose of posting in an opinion thread if you dont have an opinion you would like to prove?...."prove" meaning "win"

Um, why is it I have to "prove" an opinion? Why is giving an opinion such a slap in the face to you?

Would you be posting such sillyness if I had agreed with this statement....""I could not care how Monster markets their products. To me the only thing stopping me from buying Monster products is that I believe their prices are 3-5 times too high."" (actually, I think the factor is even higher). And I cringe every time I see the term "flux tube"...I've no idea what that is..


More or less the debate here in my opinon is that Monster's marketing is illegal vs Monster's marketing is okay. What other debate is there?

Bob did not mention illegal. So I did not respond to an issue of legality.

Cheers, John

S
As I stated......""When a "white paper" delivered by a company is designed such that the non technical reader believes the content as accurate, then the use of the white paper to "educate" the consumer is indeed interfering with the learning of accurate information.

I believe that was what Bob was referring. And I tend to agree with him on this point.""



If that is your definition of "interfering", than I will purpose that just about ALL advertising and marketing campaigns by just about everyone, "interferes" with the learning of accurate information to one degree or another, including the advertising within Bob's own company.

If that is your definition of "interfering", than I will purpose ...


For the master debater or devil's advocate...

"... then I would propose"

This thread is down right silly now with nit-picking IMO. Same as it ever was... same as it ever was..

Wow, this thread has gone on quite a tangent!

1. The only thing wrong with Monster from a technical perspective is that some of their interconnect plugs are too tight and rip out the socket from the preamp section.

2. Marketing strategy is aimed to maximize profits. It is done until told to stop by the courts. Marketing preys on ignorance. It has always been that way and always will be that way unless the courts do something about it.

3. It is the responsibility of the consumer to become educated. If it is not worth the time of the consumer to be educated, they accept that they have enough funds to cover any loss assumed by being ignorant.

For the master debater or devil's advocate...

"... then I would propose"

Masturbator? What are you implying? ;)

Wow, this thread has gone on quite a tangent!

1. The only thing wrong with Monster from a technical perspective is that some of their interconnect plugs are too tight and rip out the socket from the preamp section.

2. Marketing strategy is aimed to maximize profits. It is done until told to stop by the courts. Marketing preys on ignorance. It has always been that way and always will be that way unless the courts do something about it.

3. It is the responsibility of the consumer to become educated. If it is not worth the time of the consumer to be educated, they accept that they have enough funds to cover any loss assumed by being ignorant.

+1 +1 +1 !!!

If that is your definition of "interfering", than I will purpose that just about ALL advertising and marketing campaigns by just about everyone, "interferes" with the learning of accurate information to one degree or another, including the advertising within Bob's own company.

I certainly cannot disagree with that. It is certainly a fine line walked when it comes to embellishment of one's product for market advantage..yes, even that QSC blurb..

Cheers, John

Do you think it might have been better to ask that first? Or would that be too logical?


its not my problem you jumped into the middle of a bigger and very consistent debate.

You used the "white paper" in your arguement and you are in agreement with Bob that its interfering with education. I disagree that it has any interference since the 'white paper' is a silly tech document that the majority of consumers do not read.

I have no idea why you are even responding if you dont have a position in the big debate? I never posted asking you anything. I simply found it funny that the discussion went from Marketing on the product, Marketing in 3rd party stores and now discussion on the white paper.

There is nothing false about this statement, this is how the debate has moved along and has nothing to do with your position actually.

This thread is down right silly now with nit-picking IMO. Same as it ever was... same as it ever was..


lol, the nit-picking guys that believe things in any marketing plans and wants them to be accurate calls us nit-pickers? :D

Same as it ever was.
----Talking Heads/House of Pain

Ya know, after 21 pages in this thread, I think we ALL may be doing a bit-o-nit-picking, which is why, btw, I credited the quote above ;).

IMO, it's the same old crap. Every time a Mon$ter thread gets started, all the cockroaches crawl out to nibble.

Not a darned thing any of "us" can do about it. Unless someone wants/decides to take them to court.

There are always two side to a debate (or else it wouldn't be a debate). Each side is entitled to their opinion. No one "wins" on a public forum. And... after 600 posts in this thread that addressed the OP's question after the first 5 or 6 posts... yeah, the rest became nit-picking IMO (by only a few individuals).

This is why people hate Monster:

There are cheaper solutions out there, some of which don't perform or aren't built to Monster's standards. The fact that 1% might leads some to think Monster's overpriced.

Monster has the nerve to pursue perceived IP infringements.

Monster has broken terminals off of equipment because people don't know how to read instructions on packaging.

Monster likes to use pretty packaging and marketing strategies to move products.

Monster likes to script salespeople.

I could go on, but one thing that is common is that there are no performance or reliability problems outside of the norm. So, again, people are focusing on things that are frankly irrelevant. And, when you boil it down to the ridiculous, you can see that most of the objections are indeed just that.

This is why people hate Monster:

There are cheaper solutions out there, some of which don't perform or aren't built to Monster's standards. The fact that 1% might leads some to think Monster's overpriced.
Can you or Mon$ter produce a performance comparison or specs on Mon$ter's standards? Probably not... so, unless someone can "fess up", it's safe to assume that they are overpriced based on price vs. performance.


Monster has broken terminals off of equipment because people don't know how to read instructions on packaging.
I don't agree. There have been MANY informed consumers that have experienced this problem. Any idiot can figure out how to insert/remove an RCA plug. :rolleyes:

BTW... Working on providing your creds?

Any idiot can figure out how to insert/remove an RCA plug. :rolleyes:


True, but it's the smart ones that have the issues, no? :p

(I'm smart. I KNOW that I should just be able to pull on this plug without it ripping the connectors from my 5k pre/pro.):D

And lets not get into how smart or not smart it is to own a 5k pre/pro, for THAT is fodder for another horse that has been kicked to death.

Can you or Mon$ter produce a performance comparison or specs on Mon$ter's standards? Probably not... so, unless someone can "fess up", it's safe to assume that they are overpriced based on price vs. performance.

Well since internet site consumer-level anecdotes are sufficient (:rolleyes:), how many complaints of performance reductions do you see?

Companies that worry about their QC don't have lifetime warranties, unless they expect something to be disposable.

I don't agree. There have been MANY informed consumers that have experienced this problem. Any idiot can figure out how to insert/remove an RCA plug. :rolleyes:

I'm sure these are the idiots that don't twist the connection on, right? Grab n' yank.:rolleyes:

BTW... Working on providing your creds?

To impress you?

its not my problem you jumped into the middle of a bigger and very consistent debate.

Oh, it's a debate... I thought you called it an argument...:confused:

But apparently it is your problem, you are arguing (yes, arguing) with someone who doesn't necessarily disagree with you...that's just silly.

You used the "white paper" in your arguement and you are in agreement with Bob that its interfering with education. I disagree that it has any interference since the 'white paper' is a silly tech document that the majority of consumers do not read.

Fine...you disagree..

You said ""since the 'white paper' is a silly tech document that the majority of consumers do not read"". Of course, the majority don't read it..duh.. Buuuuut, potential customers will..the ones looking for a reason to purchase what they need, but without any tech savvy..that's the ad copy's target market.

And if it's written fancy enough with big technical sounding words, they'll believe it..

It can be white paper, or ad copy, same difference..after all, those white papers really are just ad copy...I'm sure we agree on that..

I have no idea why you are even responding if you dont have a position in the big debate?

Duh, I stated I agreed with Bob. That was my position.

I never posted asking you anything.

Ah...I was supposed to wait for you to ask me something before I posted an opinion?...Oh, ok..I didn't know that rule existed...my bad. Is that rule only for threads you are in, or all of them?

I simply found it funny that the discussion went from Marketing on the product, Marketing in 3rd party stores and now discussion on the white paper.

Again you say the white paper...what white paper, did monsta put one out?

There is nothing false about this statement, this is how the debate has moved along and has nothing to do with your position actually.
And obviously, your badgering me had nothing to do with my position (actually), since you've done so without knowing what my position was...

Cheers, John

It can be white paper, or ad copy, same difference..after all, those white papers really are just ad copy...I'm sure we agree on that..



I don't agree. Not all white papers are ad copy. Some are published to help further educate a consumer who has already purchased the product such as the White Paper titled "Multi-Channel Music & Cinema Systems, Theory and Design" published by Lexicon.

True, but it's the smart ones that have the issues, no? :p

(I'm smart. I KNOW that I should just be able to pull on this plug without it ripping the connectors from my 5k pre/pro.):D

And lets not get into how smart or not smart it is to own a 5k pre/pro, for THAT is fodder for another horse that has been kicked to death.

a) you quoted the wrong poster.
b) that was my point. Even the informed/experienced have issues with Mon$ter cables.

Well since internet site consumer-level anecdotes are sufficient (:rolleyes:), how many complaints of performance reductions do you see?
How many performance improvments have I seen? None...

I can't solely go by a self-proclaimed A/V designers word that can't/won't disclose his credentials.

Companies that worry about their QC don't have lifetime warranties, unless they expect something to be disposable.
Perhaps, but they can afford to replace a $10 cable that they intially charged $100.

I'm sure these are the idiots that don't twist the connection on, right? Grab n' yank.:rolleyes:
As I stated, there are more informed/experienced that have had problems. There's some grab n' yank happenin' here too.:rolleyes:

To impress you?
Trust me... based on your responses on various forums, there's not anything that you could provide to impress me. I just want you to admit that:
a) you work for Mon$ter
b) you work at Best Buy/Magnolia
c) you live under a bridge and collect tolls from billy goats.

Sorry... you have a lot to say and 99% of the time in a condescending fashion. You profess to be so talented, but don't back up any of your statements with facts. So, you're no better or worse than anyone else. You just have an "opinion".

Waiting for the creds...

White Papers...there's a lot of good, research based ones, and some really bunko ones. The worst transgression I've seen didn't come from Monster. Actually, another manufacturer. Their white paper spent several pages discussing the technical and electrical differences between a normal stranded cable and a Litz construction, then spent extra time on "skin effect" differences, and then some more time on the sub atomic particle benefits of OFC. The paper concluded with the pronouncement that their cables used that form of construction and OFC. Never once did they say it "improved the audio", the "sound" or anything else. No lies. No misrepresentations; but, they certainly let the non-engineer consumer take that leap on their own.

How many performance improvments have I seen? None...

Because you aren't looking or started with a product that wasn't significantly worse than the Monster to graduated to. That is possible.

I can't solely go by a self-proclaimed A/V designers word that can't/won't disclose his credentials.

Well clearly around here it isn't exactly a glamorous/safe thing to say that you work in the industry unless someone thinks they can get something from you. So I don't understand why you think I would lie about that... Plus I think it's good form to not advertise on a public board.

Perhaps, but they can afford to replace a $10 cable that they intially charged $100.

Their costs aren't your concern, since they don't affect what the consumer pays.

As I stated, there are more informed/experienced that have had problems. There's some grab n' yank happenin' here too.:rolleyes:

Trust me, I'm aware of that. It's called piling-on.

Trust me... based on your responses on various forums, there's not anything that you could provide to impress me. I just want you to admit that:
a) you work for Mon$ter
b) you work at Best Buy/Magnolia
c) you live under a bridge and collect tolls from billy goats.

Yeah, and I'm still looking for your toll money.;)

Sorry... you have a lot to say and 99% of the time in a condescending fashion. You profess to be so talented, but don't back up any of your statements with facts. So, you're no better or worse than anyone else. You just have an "opinion".

Waiting for the creds...

It would be proven if you were in the market for a real designer, not the cheapest junk your can acquire online.

This is why people hate Monster:

There are cheaper solutions out there, some of which don't perform or aren't built to Monster's standards. The fact that 1% might leads some to think Monster's overpriced.

Monster has the nerve to pursue perceived IP infringements.

Monster has broken terminals off of equipment because people don't know how to read instructions on packaging.

Monster likes to use pretty packaging and marketing strategies to move products.

Monster likes to script salespeople.

I could go on, but one thing that is common is that there are no performance or reliability problems outside of the norm. So, again, people are focusing on things that are frankly irrelevant. And, when you boil it down to the ridiculous, you can see that most of the objections are indeed just that.

monster.com was a perceived IP infringement? really?

Maybe not in Seattle or San Francisco, but places where capitalism is embraced I think most people would look at Monster and ask what your problem is.

Uh, given the wealth in these places and the wealth continually generated by these places, this seems like an odd implication.

But maybe there is something about Seattle I'm unaware of. Perhaps I'm living in a Communist city completely unawares...?

;14175323']monster.com was a perceived IP infringement? really?

Intellectual Property Infringement. Nothing to do with Monster.com, but was it an IP Infringement or a Patent Infringement?

Because you aren't looking or started with a product that wasn't significantly worse than the Monster to graduated to. That is possible.
Your assumption... I talk from experierce.

Well clearly around here it isn't exactly a glamorous/safe thing to say that you work in the industry unless someone thinks they can get something from you. So I don't understand why you think I would lie about that... Plus I think it's good form to not advertise on a public board. You can dodge a bullet, but can't outrun one. There are many on this forum that state their credentials and are proud. They provide info willingly and if they chose not to answer, so be it. Why do you avoid having someone "get something" from you when YOU willingly come here and abuse AVS, it's sponsors and participants? You know... you're probably right. You probably should not advertise on a public board. Do you not want to state the facts because it would embarassing to disclose that info? If so, don't feel that way. You have no credibility whatsoever. So, there's nothing to lose on your part.

Their costs aren't your concern, since they don't affect what the consumer pays.
You made a point and I countered. Cost is the concern.

Trust me, I'm aware of that. It's called piling-on. And you wonder why? You get the same treatment as you treat others.

Yeah, and I'm still looking for your toll money.;) Hahaha... this old goat has EZ-Pass.

It would be proven if you were in the market for a real designer, not the cheapest junk your can acquire online. See... that's what I mean. Come down from your pedestal. I stated my opinions previously. I think you really believe you are an A/V designer. :rolleyes:

.....when YOU willingly come here and abuse AVS, it's sponsors........

How is he abusing AVS and it's sponsors? Are you suggesting that his sig is abusive?

How is he abusing AVS and it's sponsors? Are you suggesting that his sig is abusive?


Not abuse but certainly not the truth. I for one am happy AVS does not have folks like PSAudio adverts here. Leave that to the fools at audio asylum.

Are you suggesting that his sig is abusive?

His signature lays the groundwork for his mentality. Go and read the dozens or more of his posts in various threads. He always has a derogatory comment about AVS and it participants when anyone disagrees with him (which is frequent).

And... why should he care? AVS is just doing business. They can market however they choose. AVS doesn't force you to purchase those products/solutions. A forum participant should educate themselves before purchasing an AVS sponsor's product. Sound familiar Mr. Schticker? :D

Oh, it's a debate... I thought you called it an argument...

But apparently it is your problem, you are arguing (yes, arguing) with someone who doesn't necessarily disagree with you...that's just silly.

Debate....arguement?? Is there really a difference on AVSforum?

I didnt really argue with you. I said adding "white paper" was funny. You took offense too it and I simply posted about the general overall debate. Again, I will post that I dont know or care what your position is and it didnt matter to my point about the "White Paper" being a funny and curious late addition to this thread :D

You continue to argue with me over nothing, thats cool it happens!

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
Any idiot can figure out how to insert/remove an RCA plug.



Now that is weird, I didnt make the Quote....Ratman did.

.........Any idiot can figure out how to insert/remove an RCA plug. :rolleyes:

Debate....arguement?? Is there really a difference on AVSforum?

One would hope so, but expectations are um, not very high.


I didnt really argue with you. I said adding "white paper" was funny. You took offense too it and I simply posted about the general overall debate. Again, I will post that I dont know or care what your position is and it didnt matter to my point about the "White Paper" being a funny and curious late addition to this thread :D

Ah, there's the crux of the problem. I've taken no offense to anything you have posted. Simple mis-interpretation.. Also, I consider "white papers" to be ad copy, certainly not scientific or technical for the most part..

You continue to argue with me over nothing, thats cool it happens!

As I said, I'm not arguing. It's unfortunate it went as far as it did.

Cheers, John

Cool. I did feel like our small arguement was definitely mis-interpretation. Im sure my post did read like it was directed at you.

Also, I consider "white papers" to be ad copy, certainly not scientific or technical for the most part..

I agree. Sometimes there is great info in them but most times they seem to be an extension of marketing. Overall, the white paper is a tech doc that is really ignored by J6P.

Now that is weird, I didnt make the Quote....Ratman did.

I already stated that in post 618. "Ya gotz ta read 'em all".:)

Hey jneutron,

As a matter of interest, were you hired to build the worlds largest particle accelerator ?

Regards,

Hey jneutron,

As a matter of interest, were you hired to build the worlds largest particle accelerator ?

Regards,
Man, talk about ya "off topic"..
The LHC at CERN is the biggest currently. I did a little work for them, but was not hired specifically to build that one..

Cheers, John

Sorry, but this thread has just about run it's course. It is bound to get off-topic now. :D

Regards,

I don't care if it's pretty either. But part of the reason why it's shoestring is no shielding and junk connectors. The relates directly to efficacy at its most base level.

No shielding? I've never seen an unshielded interconnect included with a piece of gear. Some connectors are a bit flimsy--or more specifically, the cable's joining to the connector--but since I seldom put much mechanical strain on cables and usually don't do much unplugging and re-plugging of RCA phono-type connectors, there usually is no problem. And if there is, I almost always have a spare to use.

Well said. Engineers commenting on these forums is always amusing anyway.

Informative too, I would hope.

This is AVScience.com, not NerdsFeelingWanted.com:D

Agreed, this is AVScience.com.

I just thought since guys like me actually are in the industry you outsiders ogle over, there might be a little respect. What was I thinking.

What industry are you in? Are you a photographer for Playboy or something?

The LHC at CERN is the biggest currently. I did a little work for them, but was not hired specifically to build that one..

I will call you on this one, what did you do? And if you did anything like that how can you possibly argue for what you believe or think you believe in cable?

I will call you on this one, what did you do? I make magnets..

And if you did anything like that how can you possibly argue for what you believe or think you believe in cable?

Please explain to us what you think I believe in regarding cables...I'd like to know..

Cheers, John

I make magnets..

What type of magnets? Dipole, quadrupole, or superconducting?

Please explain to us what you think I believe in regarding cables...I'd like to know..

More on the AC power side and your discussions with bob.

Off topic, but a timely article considering the latest posts here...........

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/06/30/doomsdaycollider.ap/index.html

People said the same thing about the atomic bomb.

People said the same thing about the atomic bomb.

Yup, and can you imagine the fear in the heads of those that DID believe that during the final countdown of the first test.:eek:

BTW, it wasn't just some random people that thought that. There were some very highly regarded scientists that actually worked on that project that believed that.

And the fact is, that until we tested it, they could have been right. Roll them dice.............yowza !!!

Off topic, but a timely article considering the latest posts here...........

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/06/30/doomsdaycollider.ap/index.html


Yah, they also said that about the RHIC project.

At full energy, a RHIC collision of two gold nuclei has the same energy as two mosquito's colliding head on.

Contrast that with some cosmic rays that hit the earth with as much energy as a 100 MPH fastball. Some particles are so energetic, that researchers are using the undersea network of hydrophones to detect collisions of those particles in the ocean...a big detector. To calibrate the hydrophones, they weigh down a 100 watt lightbulb, toss it overboard, and the glass implodes at a coupla hundred feet....it gets picked up by the phones...

I think the latest conclusion is that no machine that man can make can come close to the particle energies that are hitting the earth and the moon all the time, for billions of years. Somebody coined the phrase "since the moon still exists, there is no issue..

Cheers, John

What type of magnets? Dipole, quadrupole, or superconducting?
(Magnets can be either superconducting or normal.. Both technologies can produce dipoles, quads, sextupoles, etc.)

Superconducting dipoles, quads, sextupoles, octupoles, some decapoles and some do-decapoles.


More on the AC power side and your discussions with bob.

Ah, strangely enough, that is the more easily understood stuff.

They just had Dr. Tom Van Doren here, he gave a two day seminar on grounding and shielding...I recommend this course HEAVILY to anybody who wants to learn about that topic. Firmly embedded within his discussion? You got it, darn near everything I've been saying...plus more.

Dr Van Doren resides at the University of Missouri-Rolla, they have some kind of laboratory there for doing that kind of work..

Cheers, John

Agreed, this is AVScience.com.

Don't confuse a title with a mandate.

Science (I thought, that belief is diminishing as I read here) is supposed to be looking for new answers, as opposed to continually resting on its laurels. I realize my comments will not spur research, but I think all but a few here really question whether or not the ones preaching science are really scientists in the traditional spirit or cowards.

What industry are you in? Are you a photographer for Playboy or something?

The fact you don't know me is a compliment.

Uh, given the wealth in these places and the wealth continually generated by these places, this seems like an odd implication.

But maybe there is something about Seattle I'm unaware of. Perhaps I'm living in a Communist city completely unawares...?

Socialist is more like it. The term is "limousine liberal", and both cities are infested :(

Don't confuse a title with a mandate.

Still, it suggest that the forum is geared toward the scientific or technical and less toward the hocus-pocus or woo-woo.

Science (I thought, that belief is diminishing as I read here) is supposed to be looking for new answers, as opposed to continually resting on its laurels. I realize my comments will not spur research, but I think all but a few here really question whether or not the ones preaching science are really scientists in the traditional spirit or cowards.

Perhaps you could give some examples of science looking for new answers and science resting on its laurels. And some examples of those preaching science who are scientists and those who are cowards.

The fact you don't know me is a compliment.

A compliment to me or to you?

...but I think all but a few here really question whether or not the ones preaching science are really scientists in the traditional spirit or cowards.

Lot's preaching from some, without backing facts or credentials. Hm-m-m-m.... traditional scientist, hobbyist or coward?:D

Lot's preaching from some, without backing facts or credentials. Hm-m-m-m.... traditional scientist, hobbyist or coward?:D

I suppose the first two if we are to use your definition.

Still, it suggest that the forum is geared toward the scientific or technical and less toward the hocus-pocus or woo-woo.

That's laudable, but usually ends up being laughable.

Perhaps you could give some examples of science looking for new answers and science resting on its laurels. And some examples of those preaching science who are scientists and those who are cowards.

And if I don't throw loads of links on your doorstep it doesn't happen? Way to hide again. You and Ratman should form a club:rolleyes:

A compliment to me or to you?

Both, to your benefit.

Still, it suggest that the forum is geared toward the scientific or technical and less toward the hocus-pocus or woo-woo.


Perhaps you could give some examples of science looking for new answers and science resting on its laurels. And some examples of those preaching science who are scientists and those who are cowards.


Oh, come now Bob, surely you can think ofthe most obvious example. There are NEW ANSWERS about this whole 'evolution' fraud just waiting to be found, if only TRUE scientists weren't being oppressed by the cowards.

:rolleyes:

People like schticky have a 'cartoon' idea of how science works, I've found. You can tell by their peculiar off-key rhetoric when they talk about science -- e.g., 'science is about looking for new answers' -- wtf is that?

At one level, science is simply about building a consistent, accurate model of the real world. Not necessarily looking for 'new' answers, but always looking for the *right* answers...the ones that most closely approximate the way things really are.

Is science the effort to find answers or the effort to find more questions? Hmmm.....

And if I don't throw loads of links on your doorstep it doesn't happen? Way to hide again. You and Ratman should form a club:rolleyes:
No one asks for "links" per se, but for one that has so much to profess as "fact" with nothing to back those facts, then you're just opinionated. If you can't provide any background, qualifications, credentials or references... you have no credibility (other than just being a "Tellarite"). ;)

Socialist is more like it. The term is "limousine liberal", and both cities are infested :(

Another Wow :eek: You must live a sad life.

At one level, science is simply about building a consistent, accurate model of the real world. Not necessarily looking for 'new' answers, but always looking for the *right* answers...the ones that most closely approximate the way things really are.

Well your post ended on a nicer note.

I agree actually. I just think that since (for example) we've only had the lightbulb for a hundred years, maybe we don't have it all figured out. That's all I'm saying.:o

Another Wow :eek: You must live a sad life.

Nope. Quite enjoyable actually. Can't complain, which is why I save all the complaints for here:D

That's laudable, but usually ends up being laughable.

Okay, you said it, I didn't. Yes, I see many statements here that reject science and are laughable.

And if I don't throw loads of links on your doorstep it doesn't happen? Way to hide again. You and Ratman should form a club:rolleyes:

Hiding from … what? A lack of your examples is my fault? Hey Ratman, what should we call our club?

Okay, you said it, I didn't. Yes, I see many statements here that reject science and are laughable.

Well, no, that isn't entirely true. You're good at twisting words, so maybe you should join that marketing department that has so many issues.

That the pseudo-scientists here do everything they can to reject another viewpoint because it isn't published somewhere (yet) or they didn't think of it first is the issue. Nobody rejects science; the ones hiding behind what they think they know today refuse to explore new concepts.

Hiding from … what? A lack of your examples is my fault? Hey Ratman, what should we call our club?

I think we all know the effort is made to convince the uninitiated that if someone doesn't provide a box of gift-wrapped links to support something they say to paint those statements as untrue. Sadly, as newbies come onto this forum that tend to get most of their information from the net, they may be inclined to believe that.

No one asks for "links" per se, but for one that has so much to profess as "fact" with nothing to back those facts, then you're just opinionated. If you can't provide any background, qualifications, credentials or references... you have no credibility (other than just being a "Tellarite"). ;)

We're online. Name another way to substantiate something, other than the fact I'm out here doing it.

Hey Ratman, what should we call our club?

How about Cosa Nostra?

Call Out Schticker And Never Overlook Senseless Trite Regarding Audio:D

Sadly, as newbies come onto this forum that tend to get most of their information from the net, they may be inclined to believe that.


Kinda like sex, no?

That the pseudo-scientists here do everything they can to reject another viewpoint because it isn't published somewhere (yet) or they didn't think of it first is the issue. Nobody rejects science; the ones hiding behind what they think they know today refuse to explore new concepts.
Hm-m-m-m... if the shoe fits?

Name another way to substantiate something, other than the fact I'm out here doing it.Do what? Other than being argumentative... I call your bet, now show your cards. :confused:

Kinda like sex, no?

If that's a reference to the masturbatory self-impressing posts made by pure objectivists here, you're on to something.;)

Another Wow :eek: You must live a sad life.

well, there has to be SOMEONE out there who can read the words "Conservapaedia: THE TRUSTWORTHY ENCYCLOPEDIA" without guffawing.

Well, no, that isn't entirely true. You're good at twisting words, so maybe you should join that marketing department that has so many issues.

Sorry, not really interested in working for another company for now.

That the pseudo-scientists here do everything they can to reject another viewpoint because it isn't published somewhere (yet) or they didn't think of it first is the issue. Nobody rejects science; the ones hiding behind what they think they know today refuse to explore new concepts.

Can you identify any of these alleged pseudo-scientists who "do everything they can to reject another viewpoint because it isn't published somewhere (yet) or they didn't think of it first"?

Are you sure nobody rejects science? What are the "new concepts" that you speak of—double-blind listening tests? knowledge of electrical concepts?

I've got the perfect solution for everyone here--start working at Best Buy one day a week. You'll get extremely reasonable (and frankly, otherwise unobtainable at retail) prices on all cabling (and everything else), with a marked difference in Monster pricing. You'll know exactly what goes on in departments around the store, because employees will have no qualms about telling you as a coworker. You'll have first access to stock information, and therefore purchase (unless supplies are extremely limited, in which case it's bad form to poach them). The discount can be extremely powerful for new homeowners or renovators.

You'll experience customers firsthand, so there won't be any silly allegations about what does and doesn't lead to them making a "bad" purchase. And heck, if you're knowledgeable, you'll be making a positive difference rather than preaching to the digital choir. Try it for a season, and quit if you can't stand it. Don't put it on your resume. Surely you're all qualified? Surely it seems easy enough? Surely telling people the truth would be fun?

I've got the perfect solution for everyone here--start working at Best Buy one day a week. You'll get extremely reasonable (and frankly, otherwise unobtainable at retail) prices on all cabling (and everything else), with a marked difference in Monster pricing. You'll know exactly what goes on in departments around the store, because employees will have no qualms about telling you as a coworker. You'll have first access to stock information, and therefore purchase (unless supplies are extremely limited, in which case it's bad form to poach them). The discount can be extremely powerful for new homeowners or renovators.

You'll experience customers firsthand, so there won't be any silly allegations about what does and doesn't lead to them making a "bad" purchase. And heck, if you're knowledgeable, you'll be making a positive difference rather than preaching to the digital choir. Try it for a season, and quit if you can't stand it. Don't put it on your resume. Surely you're all qualified? Surely it seems easy enough? Surely telling people the truth would be fun?

Great post. Reality dosages are good around here every so often. Please stick around (if you can tolerate it).

I've got the perfect solution for everyone here--start working at Best Buy one day a week. You'll get extremely reasonable (and frankly, otherwise unobtainable at retail) prices on all cabling (and everything else), with a marked difference in Monster pricing.
Are part-time employees entitled to the "extremely reasonable" discount?

You'll experience customers firsthand, so there won't be any silly allegations about what does and doesn't lead to them making a "bad" purchase. And heck, if you're knowledgeable, you'll be making a positive difference rather than preaching to the digital choir.
Isn't that counter-productive? If I were an employee at BB (or anywhere else) and didn't direct the customer to "in-store" merchandise and suggested to go to Monoprice, I'd only be employed approximately 1 hour or less.:rolleyes:

Try it for a season, and quit if you can't stand it. Don't put it on your resume. Surely you're all qualified? Surely it seems easy enough? Surely telling people the truth would be fun? I agree... I am qualified and it would be fun.

IMO... if Mon$ter lowered their MSRP's, we wouldn't be having these discussions.:D

I still wouldn't buy some cable at $0.70/foot with a "flux capacitance" tube (piece of useless plastic) in it.

And working at a retail store won't help you fight the marketing pressure when you are unable to provide reasonable or marketedly cheaper and better alternatives when your job is directly related to selling the limited products in the store.

I can't believe that this thread has be resurrected.

Well it "has be" ;) Post 664 works wonders for raising a few hackles. :)

I've got the perfect solution for everyone here--start working at Best Buy one day a week. I worked at Radio Shack 6-7 days a week for 5+ years. BB can't be much worse!

Are part-time employees entitled to the "extremely reasonable" discount?

If I were an employee and suggested to go to Monoprice,

If Mon$ter lowered their MSRP's, we wouldn't be having these discussions.:D

Yes, part-timers are entitled to the discount. There is an initial period before it is active, however. It's 5% over cost.

As for your second objection, you would find that the vast majority of your customers are not familiar or comfortable with shopping online, and extremely intolerant of waiting for shipping. For most cases, your online recommendations would fall on unreceptive ears. People want instant gratification, especially if they just bought a flashy piece of hardware. Going home and not having that last bit to make it work is a huge disappointment for most people. The new BB tech motto is Walk Out Working--sell them what they need, today. While it's the only logical choice for the average online shopper, it's borderline ridiculous to big-box customers.

I did some research today on that third point. Suffice to say, the basic cost for Monster cables (to the store) is much higher than I thought it was. I can't share numbers but there is a very significant price difference between Monster cables and other brands. So it's not just the MSRP, it's the wholesale cost. Of course, knowledge of their internal cost of manufacture might be a different story entirely.

[QUOTE=Phyltre;14363166]

I did some research today on that third point. Suffice to say, the basic cost for Monster cables (to the store) is much higher than I thought it was. I can't share numbers but there is a very significant price difference between Monster cables and other brands. QUOTE]


You cant share numbers?:cool: Thats funny what are you a monstar rep? Give me a break.


Dont spout the BS if you cant back it up.

[QUOTE=Phyltre;14363166]
Dont spout the BS if you cant back it up.

This is low-brow, offensive, and totally unnecessary. I am simply following the regulations of my place of employment. You are under no obligation to listen to a word I say; please keep the accusations and demeaning insinuations to yourself.

Of course, knowledge of their internal cost of manufacture might be a different story entirely.

Might be? :rolleyes:;)

I've got the perfect solution for everyone here--start working at Best Buy one day a week. .... Surely telling people the truth would be fun?

I occasionally shop at Best Buy, and have actually purchased a fair number of things there at reasonable (IMO) prices.

A person I know at work just bought a flat panel at Best Buy. He was telling me how the sales person worked him over about buying a Monster HDMI cable above all others, citing the usual rhetoric. He ended up buying the Monster, as many likely do, for something like $80.

He asks me after the fact, and after he has had time to regain his senses, if the cable is worth it. Of course, I politely say not in my opinion and he says he didn't really think so either, but the sales person told him he could return it if he didn't need/want/like it. I'm guessing few people return the cables, and he may not either just due to the hassles of the trip, time, etc.

Also, I agree with Ratman. Being a professor of "truth" likely would result in termination, or at least a "friendly" reminder of some sort. How would it sit with management to suggest to customers that buying extended warranty is a losing proposition most of the time?

The point isn't to single out Best Buy because most companies try to sell extended warranties and accessories. The point is that there are varying degrees of disclosure and I'm guessing full disclosure, unless specifically asked, might be frowned upon.

As for your second objection, you would find that the vast majority of your customers are not familiar or comfortable with shopping online, and extremely intolerant of waiting for shipping.
How do you know it's a "vast majority"? I'd suspect that most are familiar with online purchasing. You may be right about about not wanting the "wait time", but to save money (cost difference and sales tax), it would be worth the wait IMO.

For most cases, your online recommendations would fall on unreceptive ears.Again, how do you know that? Have you ever redirected a customer to an online store to save them money?

People want instant gratification, especially if they just bought a flashy piece of hardware. Going home and not having that last bit to make it work is a huge disappointment for most people.Yes, some people are very impatient to wait a day or two. If the extra expenditure for an immediate 48 hours worth of flashy is worth it, then shame on them.

The new BB tech motto is Walk Out Working--sell them what they need, today.
And... in many cases, add to the motto, "Expect Returns... what you sell them today, may come back tomorrow". When some individuals get on these forums or talk with friends, relatives, co-workers and get the facts about having $$ sucked out if their pockets, more "open box" inventory for the store. :)

While it's the only logical choice for the average online shopper, it's borderline ridiculous to big-box customers.I don't quite get the drift of this comment.

On a different note: This is just my opinion/observation, but why is it that it seems almost every BB employee participating on forums defend Mon$ter (Also, Sony/BluRay) like a first born child? (No need to answer... that's a different topic. Just thinking out loud) :confused:

How do you know it's a "vast majority"? I'd suspect that most are familiar with online purchasing. You may be right about about not wanting the "wait time", but to save money (cost difference and sales tax), it would be worth the wait IMO.

Again, how do you know that? Have you ever redirected a customer to an online store to save them money?
On a different note: This is just my opinion/observation, but why is it that it seems almost every BB employee participating on forums defend Mon$ter (Also, Sony/BluRay) like a first born child? (No need to answer... that's a different topic. Just thinking out loud) :confused:

I guess the only way to believe this is to see it for yourself, but at least locally, most big-box customers do not want to shop online. Yes, most. I am not a regular sales employee but I do frequently have to recommend online sources for parts,etc we do not carry--and they basically aren't willing to do it. I think as regular internet users we forget that most people still aren't very comfortable with internet commerce; especially big-box customers. The "big secret" is that for whatever reason, telling someone they can get something cheaper online doesn't really seem to impact the customer once they're in the store.

Now, again, I'm not a normal BB sales employee, but personally I don't value Monster cable over any other cable. If I didn't receive a discount, I wouldn't buy it. In fact, I'm honest to customers that a lot of what they see in product feature lists and specifications is going to be marketing versus concrete features and comparisons. That being said, lots of customers want to feel like they bought the best thing, or like the design, and still go with Monster. It's their choice.

It's their choice.
BINGO!!!! We have a winner!

Yes, it's their choice to NOT wonder if they've been bamboozled, their choice to decline to discover if their beliefs have any connection to fact, their choice to remain as ignorant as they like. No one has said otherwise.

Years ago i worked for awhile at one of the then-famous 'Crazy Eddie' shops, and I assure you that from the corporate perspective there, customer ignorance was money in the bank.

As for monster cables, they're not defective, they're just absurdly overpriced.

... but personally I don't value Monster cable over any other cable. If I didn't receive a discount, I wouldn't buy it.

Bingo! Neither do I nor would I. That's one side of this discussion... it's overpriced vs. performance comparisons to other manufacturers. :D

.................they're just absurdly overpriced.Sure they're overpriced, but to call them "absurdly overpriced" is a stretch. There are countless cables that ARE "absurdly overpriced". $30 is not "absurdly overpriced". $300 is. $3000 is.

$30 is not "absurdly overpriced". $300 is. $3000 is.

Nope. $43,000.00 is>>>>>http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/transparent-opus-speaker-cables-bring-you-audio-nirvana-for-43000-a-pair-303825.php

Sure they're overpriced, but to call them "absurdly overpriced" is a stretch.

We've been over this many times...
IMO, for the "general, uninformed, uneducated in A/V" consumer that just wants a new TV or A/V system, they ARE absurdly overpriced. So...

some say it's Mon$ter's fault
some say it's the retailer's fault
some say it's the consumer's fault
some say many have an open wallet and don't care about price

Big wheels keep on turnin'...

It's not overpriced to the person actually willing to pay the price, even if the "benefit" is largely or totally imaginary.

Call me amazed. I just read the first article ever that left me with a favorable impression of Monster (the company.) They let the Audioholics guys use $200K worth of test gear for an HDMI cable shootout and no the cables weren't all made by Monster. Pretty nice of them.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/long-hdmi-cable-bench-tests

They're not the devil or anything, let's not get carried away with the Monster-hate. I won't pay full price for their products, and I think their business/legal practices tread on some ethical boundaries, but they're not killing baby seals or putting razor blades in apples for trick-or-treaters.

Plus, it's not like that wasn't free marketing.

Wow... very nice of them!
Looks like Monoprice stands up pretty well. ;)

Well it might be free marketing (they could use some good PR after the Blue Jeans fiasco) but the test results tell me the Monoprice HDMI 1.3 cables are good enough for me and a whole bunch cheaper. :)

Sure they're overpriced, but to call them "absurdly overpriced" is a stretch. There are countless cables that ARE "absurdly overpriced". $30 is not "absurdly overpriced". $300 is. $3000 is.

Whether $30 is absurd really depends on the length, no?

Perhaps you aren't familiar with the full Monster line of fine cable products? Here's the top of their line. Can we call them at least 'silly' or 'ridiculous' if 'absurd' strikes you as overkill?

M2.4s Biwire™ Speaker Cable
8 ft. pair M2.4s BW-8/8 $625.00 pr.

M1000 High Performance Stereo Audio Cable
4 ft. pair - 1.22 m. RCA Audio Cable $100.00 pr.

M1000 High Resolution Digital Coaxial Cable
4 ft. Digital Coaxial Cable - 1.22 m. $80.00 ea.

M1000 High Resolution Digital Fiber Optic Cable
4 ft. Fiber Optic Cable - 1.22 m. $80.00 ea.

M1000 HDTV HDMI Cable
4 ft. HDMI A/V Cable - 1.22 m. $150.00 ea

It's not overpriced to the person actually willing to pay the price, even if the "benefit" is largely or totally imaginary.

That depends on what the person believes he or she is getting. If they believe they're getting performance that is better than a low-priced cable, then they are overpriced and the buyer has been fleeced. And yes, I'm assuming 'performance' isn't some totally subjective attribute.

That depends on what the person believes he or she is getting. If they believe they're getting performance that is better than a low-priced cable, then they are overpriced and the buyer has been fleeced. And yes, I'm assuming 'performance' isn't some totally subjective attribute.

Yes, we know the buyer has been fleeced. But the buyer himself or herself probably does not feel fleeced if he or she is willing to pay the price.

... and I guess that makes it okay? To each their own.

I hope Mon$ter doesn't go into the oil business. They would sell gas at $8.00 a gallon and market that their gas provides better performance and MPG.

They could probably erect filling stations at a B&M store and make a killing! (Buy a $150 cable and get free gallon of gas!) :)

Back in the "old days", Esso (now Exxon) gas used to have a slogan, "Put a Tiger in your tank". They would give away a little tiger tail that would hang out of your gas tank. Mon$ter could use the slogan, "Put a Mon$ter in your tank" and have an HDMI cable hang out.

I hope Mon$ter doesn't go into the oil business. They would sell gas at $8.00 a gallon and market that their gas provides better performance and MPG.

They could probably erect filling stations at a B&M store and make a killing! (Buy a $150 cable and get free gallon of gas!) :)

Back in the "old days", Esso (now Exxon) gas used to have a slogan, "Put a Tiger in your tank". They could use the slogan, "Put a Mon$ter in your tank".

Curious. Do you see anything at all wrong with a marketing strategy as you describe above as long as it conforms to current advertising laws? I mean that there is always the possibility that someone may find a way for a gasoline to provide better performance and MPG.

No... not at all. I agree with the rest of you. Good marketing supercedes good faith and deception for profit. That's what capitalism is all about. Theft by deception.

I LOVE America... eets bin berry berry good to me. ;)

I hope Mon$ter doesn't go into the oil business. They would sell gas at $8.00 a gallon and market that their gas provides better performance and MPG.
Wouldn't work. They depend on lying salespeople to make the case for paying extra.

Back in the "old days", Esso (now Exxon) gas used to have a slogan, "Put a Tiger in your tank". They would give away a little tiger tail that would hang out of your gas tank. Mon$ter could use the slogan, "Put a Mon$ter in your tank" and have an HDMI cable hang out.
Except that Esso couldn't have charged $150 for that tiger tail.

Except that Esso couldn't have charged $150 for that tiger tail.

LOL... nah. It was free with a fill up back when gas was 30 cents a gallon! :D

I mean that there is always the possibility that someone may find a way for a gasoline to provide better performance and MPG.

Since you added that comment with an edit...

If they market that performance "improvement", then hopefully SOMEONE will do the comparisons. The testing of HDMI cables in the link provided above is a good example.

Shell gasoline had "platformate" back in the '60s.

Prices and wages in the 50's
__________________________
Yearly Inflation Rate USA 1.09%
Average Cost of new house: $8,450.00
Average wages per year: $3,210.00
Cost of a gallon of Gas: 18 cents
Average Cost of a new car: $1,510.00
Stromburg Black and White Television: $249.95
Ball Point Pen: $0.25
Samsonite Case: $25.00
Clock Radio: $59.95

And cigarettes cost 0.25 cents a pack out of the machines.

From the link above:

MonoPrice $9.52 6' Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass
Monster 500HD $69.95 2m Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass

I'll take $60 of "todays" money and use it for gas.

Well, I don't see Monster as the most flagrant violator of the price/performance thing. At least their cables work, even if they are overpriced. How about:

Tributaries $900 15m Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail
WireWorld Starlight $1399.95 12m Pass Fail Fail Fail Fail

:)

They are not sold in B&M stores to Sunday/holiday sale shoppers.

Die thread, Die :D

[QUOTE=speco2003;14363730]

This is low-brow, offensive, and totally unnecessary. I am simply following the regulations of my place of employment. You are under no obligation to listen to a word I say; please keep the accusations and demeaning insinuations to yourself.



No YOU stated something as fact and then hid behind some sort of regulations for someplace you may or may not work. I didnt ask where you worked I simply said if this info is true then give us some numbers. Otherwise what you wrote is just pure BS. If the so called regulations are so tight then you shouldnt be here talking about them at all.

How about component video plugs so tight they can rip the vid outputs off your DVD player?:eek:

How about component video plugs so tight they can rip the vid outputs off your DVD player?:eek:already mentioned several times in this thread

I don't think that there is ANYTHING that can be said on this subject that hasn't already been mentioned several times in this thread.

I eat boogers.

(Wait, did I already say that?)

Yeah... alrighty then. That's one of the most enlightening and helpful posts in the entire thread. And... answers some of MY questions in regard to personalities. ;)

Yes, we know the buyer has been fleeced. But the buyer himself or herself probably does not feel fleeced if he or she is willing to pay the price.


A little edumacation might change that feeling.

:D

Yes, we know the buyer has been fleeced. But the buyer himself or herself probably does not feel fleeced if he or she is willing to pay the price.

Is that a perceived fleecing?;)

Is that a perceived fleecing?;)

Not to the unsuspecting fleeced.

http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyimages/1082.gif