I am thinking about purchasing the Logitech Z-5500 surround speakers for my office since I spend 10 hours a day there listening to music while I work. If I do, I thought it would be nice to rip all of my surround music onto my computer so that I can listen to my CD's (about 1,000 ripped to WMA Lossless), my DTS CD's and my DVD-A's.

So my question is two-fold. What is the best way to rip and encode surround music, and what is the best software to use to play it? I know my options are limited, if not non-existent, for the DVD-A. But I don't mind ripping the DD or DTS track off of the DVD-A since I'm not talking about a high-end setup anyway. I also have some DVD's that contain a DTS surround mix (Opeth's host Reveries, Dream Theater's Systematic Chaos, etc.) that I'd like to convert also.

I don't have a preference to any particular format, but I want to be able to shuffle through my music regardless of 2 or 5.1 channel. In other words, I might want to shuffle play all of my Porcupine Tree, but some of the albums are 2 channel WMA, and the others are 5.1 channel *insert format here* ripped from the DVD-A.

So what are my options, and what would you recommend?

Thanks,
Chris

At the start of the DVD-A ripping process, at least for the hi-res AUDIO_TS zone, really you only have option, and that is DVD-Audio Explorer. You can rip and decode the tracks to wav to begin with, but it also has a command-line switch which allows you to bring in any other audio encoding tool to automatically convert the tracks to another format. The most popular is flac, so download the official flac.exe and put it in with DVDAExplorer.exe, and use flac -f "%filepath%"

See this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1134818) thread for its ongoing development (it is even open-source) and download the latest beta 1 version here (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1130129&postcount=281). (there is also now a mac version for anyone reading this! DVD-A is being opened up for consumers, so that we can do what we want with our hi-res audio and listen to it how WE want).

As you rip your discs you will get to know about the sometimes complicated way they structure the audio on the disc (including multichannel version of the album, stereo version, and extra "preview" tracks and dummy 1-seconds tracks)...
For me, the best software to play advanced FLACs such as these, is foobar. It is simply flawless and wonderful :)

Edit: made it clearer that this is only for the hi-res AUDIO_TS zone on the disc, not the DTS/DD VIDEO_TS zone.

I have the z-5500 speakers hooked up to my computer and listed to the dts, ac3 and even the dvd-a on my computer. I mainly used two programs to listen to my surround music: Powerdvd and Creative Mediasource Dvd-Audio player. You can use a program such as "DVD-Audio Extractor" to rip the dts and ac3 tracks off of your dvd-a discs. Don't let the name fool you, dvd-a extractor doesn't rip the hi-rez mlp tracks. Once I've ripped the dts or ac3 tracks, I can load them into Powerdvd and create a playlist. I have some playlists of dts and ac3 surround music which are over 100 songs and can have powerdvd play them randomly. You can use a program such as "DVDFab Platinum" to rip your entire dvd-a to your hard drive as an iso image. I mount these iso images to a virtual drive using Daemon Tools. You can then play the Hi-rez dvd-a using the Creative player (as long as the original isn't watermarked). If it is watermarked, older versions of Powerdvd will ignore the watermark and allow you to play them.

Great info, guys. I wasn't really expecting to be able to grab the DVD-A layer, but DVDAExplorer works great. And being able to compress the tracks losslessly to FLAC is even better to save HD space. I installed Foobar, so we'll see how it works out. I'm not too impressed with the UI so far, but I just have to get used to it. Now to get those surround speakers...

Dave, any feedback on the Z-5500's? All the reviews seem to be pretty good. I'm not expecting home theater quality, but it sounds like I might be pleasantly surprised.

Chris

savaytse66 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=7478103),
Foobar does indeed look plain and unlikeable by default, but you can make it look almost any way you want (I've seen some amazing screenshots) with some work. I myself haven't mastered its interface yet, and am satisfied with the results I got with some simple altering of settings, but I believe that these days people on forums are providing complete skin packages where you only need to download a bunch of files and put them in the foobar config folders.

perhaps someone can provide some useful links. I think you can even make it look almost idential to iTunes with configurable playlists and everything.
------------

David, have you cloned watermarked discs straight to ISO with DVDFab Platinum? If so, have you noticed that ANY version of PowerDVD (7.0.x-7.3.x, or 8.x) will not even play show the hi-res menu of a watermarked disc unless you remove DVDAUDIO.MKB and DVDAUDIO.BUP from the AUDIO_TS folder first? It only shows the DTS/DD menu.

On the side, there's an exception: version 7.0.2602, which does have a watermark detector (useful to check a disc for watermarking before you finally archive it), has no problem showing the hi-res zone, even with DVDAUDIO.MKB and DVDAUDIO.BUP in there, but of course it mutes after 15 seconds of playback.

Dave, any feedback on the Z-5500's? All the reviews seem to be pretty good. I'm not expecting home theater quality, but it sounds like I might be pleasantly surprised.

Chris

I also have the Z-5300 (I believe that's the model) for my old computer. There's not much of a difference between the two to my ears. The z5500 have slightly larger speakers, use speaker wire, bigger sub and of course the control module. The sound of the z-5500 is decent in a small room. You will have to dial in the sound (I did so in my Creative soundcard controls). The nice thing about the z5500 is the connectivity. I can use the analog cables to connect my computer and also easily plug in my xbox360 via optical cable. I'd say they are worth the price, but like you said don't expect home theater quality unless you're in a smaller room.

David, have you cloned watermarked discs straight to ISO with DVDFab Platinum? If so, have you noticed that ANY version of PowerDVD (7.0.x-7.3.x, or 8.x) will not even play show the hi-res menu of a watermarked disc unless you remove DVDAUDIO.MKB and DVDAUDIO.BUP from the AUDIO_TS folder first? It only shows the DTS/DD menu.

On the side, there's an exception: version 7.0.2602, which does have a watermark detector (useful to check a disc for watermarking before you finally archive it), has no problem showing the hi-res zone, even with DVDAUDIO.MKB and DVDAUDIO.BUP in there, but of course it mutes after 15 seconds of playback.

It's the first I'd heard of removing the .mkb from the audio_ts folder to enable straight playback with powerdvd. For the discs that don't default to the dvd-a I always just loaded up the .aob files to get it to play. The problem with Powerdvd and dvd-a discs is they don't sound as nice as they do with the Creative player. I believe Powerdvd is doing the same thing with the audio as it does with blu-ray and hd-dvd hi-rez audio: it downmixes it. The advantage it has is the ability to play anything. What's strange is the Creative player will still play some watermarked copies, such as The Beatles "Love" disc. Perhaps there's a workaround with the Creative player too (such as removing the .mkb file). The Creative player will play anything loaded in my dvd drive, but if I want long playlists I need to mount multiple copied discs to virtual drives which means playback issues with many of the watermarked discs.

It's the first I'd heard of removing the .mkb from the audio_ts folder to enable straight playback with powerdvd. For the discs that don't default to the dvd-a I always just loaded up the .aob files to get it to play. The problem with Powerdvd and dvd-a discs is they don't sound as nice as they do with the Creative player. I believe Powerdvd is doing the same thing with the audio as it does with blu-ray and hd-dvd hi-rez audio: it downmixes it. The advantage it has is the ability to play anything. What's strange is the Creative player will still play some watermarked copies, such as The Beatles "Love" disc. Perhaps there's a workaround with the Creative player too (such as removing the .mkb file). The Creative player will play anything loaded in my dvd drive, but if I want long playlists I need to mount multiple copied discs to virtual drives which means playback issues with many of the watermarked discs.

Yeah, I only recently discovered this issue for myself two days ago....but you're right, PowerDVD does downsample the audio no matter what disc format it's playing, which is one of the many reasons I like to rip my collection to FLAC for HTPC playback. But we need to encourage FFmpeg developers to finish off testing the MLP decoder (for security holes, last time I looked!) so it can be implemented into FFmpeg so that they can then write DVD-A playback functionality into MPC Homecinema, etc. I can't WAIT for that because then you can play the ATS_01_0.IFO just like playing a VIDEO_TS's IFO!

BTW Beatles Love is not watermarked...:)

This is not an office solution for me, but rather a -home- workstation setup.
I have a cheap Sherwood receiver ($120 display model with no remote).
In my case I patch the MCh analog outs from my Audigy 2ZS soundcard to a switch, then from the switch to the Sherwood, and then a long run from the switch to another switch near the HT, which also has the Oppo hooked to it, in turn connected to the better receiver.

Anyway,back to the pc, I have the Sherwood and 5 small Cerwin-Vega speakers mounted about the area. Not convenient in an office setting, maybe, but you can use whatever speakers/mounting situation you desire, as I found none of the pc speaker solutions attractive. I have a set of Dell/Logitech speakers sitting on a shelf. :shrug:
Anyway, I can play/send DTS, AC3, WAV, MLP, FLAC/whatever or DVDA to either location.
FWIW.

savaytse66 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=7478103),
Foobar does indeed look plain and unlikeable by default, but you can make it look almost any way you want (I've seen some amazing screenshots) with some work. I myself haven't mastered its interface yet, and am satisfied with the results I got with some simple altering of settings, but I believe that these days people on forums are providing complete skin packages where you only need to download a bunch of files and put them in the foobar config folders.

perhaps someone can provide some useful links. I think you can even make it look almost idential to iTunes with configurable playlists and everything.
------------

David, have you cloned watermarked discs straight to ISO with DVDFab Platinum? If so, have you noticed that ANY version of PowerDVD (7.0.x-7.3.x, or 8.x) will not even play show the hi-res menu of a watermarked disc unless you remove DVDAUDIO.MKB and DVDAUDIO.BUP from the AUDIO_TS folder first? It only shows the DTS/DD menu.

On the side, there's an exception: version 7.0.2602, which does have a watermark detector (useful to check a disc for watermarking before you finally archive it), has no problem showing the hi-res zone, even with DVDAUDIO.MKB and DVDAUDIO.BUP in there, but of course it mutes after 15 seconds of playback.

DVDAUDIO.MKB has nothing to do with watermarking at all. It's the data keyfile for the CPPM copy protection system.
DVDAUDIO.BUP is a simple backup file for the related IFO file, and again has nothing to do with watermarking.
CPPM is completely ignored by DVDA explorer, as it is also completely ignored (IE dealt with) by DVDFab HD decrypter too.

Watermarking is done before the file even gets encoded to MLP, in a DOS process using Verance tools to set & embed the watermark. It is robust, and will survive even recording from the analogue outputs of the player.

Certain set top players ignore it. Whilst this is a technical spec violation, I suspect it is done the same way certain other makers get around region encoding. I will mention no names, but how they do it is to send off the prototypes for logo approval using a separate plugin circuit for the detection of the region code/watermark, and "forget" to plug the board in on the production models.

The only way I have found to defeat watermarking is to either re-encode to lossy forms like DTS (unacceptable) or to encode to DTS-HD MAS - that works, and the DTS-HD StreamPlayer will play the file properly.
If your DVD-A player does detect watermarks, then any copy you make will cut to silence as soon as the first mark is detected.
Strange, isn't it, that given this is the ONLY unbroken CP method yet made that the stupid industry is ignoring DVD-A in favour of the appalling Blu Ray.
There's a form that will not catch on for music. It is too expensive to create, and the costs are not going to go down.

Hey Neil.

I know DVDAUDIO.MKB and .BUP have nothing to do with the watermarking, but somehow PowerDVD completely ignores the mere existance of a (watermarked) AUDIO_TS zone if those two files are in there...I have no idea how it works, but I've confirmed this with more than one watermarked disc when I clone it with DVDFab Platinum.

Try it, if you dare! ;):)

Hey Neil.

I know DVDAUDIO.MKB and .BUP have nothing to do with the watermarking, but somehow PowerDVD completely ignores the mere existance of a (watermarked) AUDIO_TS zone if those two files are in there...I have no idea how it works, but I've confirmed this with more than one watermarked disc when I clone it with DVDFab Platinum.

Try it, if you dare! ;):)

???
What do you mean by "PowerDVD completely ignores the mere existence of a (watermarked) Audio_TS" - does this mean that if those 2 (unrelated) files are there, PowerDVD ignores the watermark, or it ignores the whole Audio_TS?
If the latter - it refuses to see the Audio_TS at all - then this is the CP doing it's job, as when the hacked WinDVD/PowerDVD dll files appeared, all previously released discs keys were revoked. Same thing happens in WinDVD 7 - it will not play even some pressed, store-bought discs. Yet in WinDVD 6 it plays them. Apparently, keys were also revoked for PowerDVD too.

The only way to tell if a disc is watermarked is to run it though a PPCMripper, and see if it tells you it has detected a watermark. It is supposed to be able to bypass the mark, but it doesn't work. The other way is to remove the CPPM with DVDFab, and burn - if the disc is marked, it won't play properly (cuts to silence).

I'm just confused by what you are saying I guess.
It's not possible for the MKB file to have anything to do with playback - or not - of a watermarked disc. The watermarking is done before authoring, and before MLP encoding too. CPPM is added at authoring in the Command Editor, and is even more expensive than watermarking - but less use.

???
What do you mean by "PowerDVD completely ignores the mere existence of a (watermarked) Audio_TS" - does this mean that if those 2 (unrelated) files are there, PowerDVD ignores the watermark, or it ignores the whole Audio_TS?

The AUDIO_TS.
99% of versions (except one I'm about to talk about below) ALWAYS ignore any watermarking.

If the latter - it refuses to see the Audio_TS at all - then this is the CP doing it's job, as when the hacked WinDVD/PowerDVD dll files appeared, all previously released discs keys were revoked. Same thing happens in WinDVD 7 - it will not play even some pressed, store-bought discs. Yet in WinDVD 6 it plays them. Apparently, keys were also revoked for PowerDVD too.

But it's only done this with watermarked discs, and not others. First time I've heard certain titles being revoked in PowerDVD (haven't noticed any problems with mine), but there's a pattern here and I don't think it's what you just mentioned. I don't know WHAT it is! Maybe some sort of special little copy protection measure by Cyberlink, preventing a user who's copied a watermarked AUDIO_TS zone (weak protection though, if the user knows how to remove the MKB and re-author).

The only way to tell if a disc is watermarked is to run it though a PPCMripper, and see if it tells you it has detected a watermark. It is supposed to be able to bypass the mark, but it doesn't work. The other way is to remove the CPPM with DVDFab, and burn - if the disc is marked, it won't play properly (cuts to silence).

I'll have to try out PPCMripper when I get back home, but I actually like to use an obscure old version of PowerDVD, 7.0.2602, which has a watermark detector in it (CLAud_w.ax). Unlike the newer versions (7.3), It WILL show the Hi-res menu, even if DVDAUDIO.MKB is still in there, but of couse after 15 seconds, its watermark detector will kick in (very useful!), whether there's a DVDAUDIO.MKB or not.

I'm just confused by what you are saying I guess.
It's not possible for the MKB file to have anything to do with playback - or not - of a watermarked disc. The watermarking is done before authoring, and before MLP encoding too. CPPM is added at authoring in the Command Editor, and is even more expensive than watermarking - but less use.
Sorry, should have been clearer. If it's still not clear enough, ask again, or try it yourself, I'd like to know if I'm insane/retarded/unlucky, or correct. :)

If the entire Audio_TS is not being seen, and the .MKB file is present, then this is the CP doing it's job, as the key descriptor will not be encoded onto the disc (it's a written disc, not a replicated one) so will not match the one given in the .MKB file, hence why the player cannot "see" the Audio_TS. It's nothing to do with watermarking.
(DVDAUDIO.BUP is simply a backup of DVDAUDIO.MKB, in case one becomes corrupted the backup will suffice. It's like the VTS.IFO & related VTS.BUP files on a DVD-Video disc. Just removing the .MKB file will cause the player to think it is corrupted, and it will use the BUP version instead)

To quote from the CPPM Specs:
Each side of a disc with CPPM protected DVD-Audio content contains:
• An Album Identifier (IDalbum) prerecorded in the Lead-in Area
• A Media Key Block (MKB) prerecorded as a specific file in the Data Area.
• Encrypted Content prerecorded as specific files in the Data Area.
and the different levels of encryption are all set at authoring. You have many different options:
Audio Files, ASV & ASVU, VOB files etc - all have different options & possibilities. For example, you can set the Audio to be copied freely, CD quality, 2-channel full quality or 2 channel CD quality or not at all.
Video & stills have similar options.

If your discs are not working whilst they contain those files, then there must be either
A - The CP is actually doing it's job, as the files on the disc are not matched to anything in the lead-in area of the disc as it's a written copy.
B - a bug of some sort in the CPPM removal code.

It's still got nothing to do with watermarking in any shape, way or form. Watermarking is not a part of the CPPM specs. It's applied using DOS/Command Line to the audio files before they go anywhere near the authoring application & it does not (AFAIK) work through lossy encoders so has never been used yet on DVD-Video with any great success.

But you can still play the dvd-a in Powerdvd even though the dvd-a menu doesn't appear. It still allows you to load up and play the .aob files. It seems that removing the mkb and bup file simply allows for the menu to appear, instead of having to access the .aob files for playback. If they begin watermarking blu-rays it will be broken too. This may be a good thing for dvd-a as it would probably be broken as well in the process. I wish the DTS-HD StreamPlayer and playback of DTS-HD MAS wasn't so darn expensive, it really seems like the best way to go.