im in the market for a new TV i was in LCD at fist but that after all the issues with them i moved to Plasma. now i narrow down to Panny 46PZ85U and Pioneer 5080HD that is 780p why does 1080p double the price from 780p

probably mostly marketing.... unless you sit really close to your tv... or you're buying a massive 56"+ tv there's no need for 1080p

im in the market for a new TV i was in LCD at fist but that after all the issues with them i moved to Plasma. now i narrow down to Panny 46PZ85U and Pioneer 5080HD that is 780p why does 1080p double the price from 780p

Why??? double the pixels = harder (more expensive) to produce :rolleyes:

i know i will not notice 1080p when i sit about 10' from tv but now days everything is 1080P . So in a year or so i will feel out of date with 780p plasma . I still have a lot of looking to do in to Panny 46PZ85U and 5080HD any one have any input about these two TV's

im in the market for a new TV i was in LCD at fist but that after all the issues with them i moved to Plasma. now i narrow down to Panny 46PZ85U and Pioneer 5080HD that is 780p why does 1080p double the price from 780pWhat? The PZ85U is not double the price of a 5080HD. Not even close to double.


probably mostly marketing.... unless you sit really close to your tv... or you're buying a massive 56"+ tv there's no need for 1080pWhat? 1080p is not marketing - i see a huge improvement on a 42" 1080p set at 8 feet and even 10 feet. On a 50 incher i see it at 12 feet and more. Plenty of us can see a distinct difference between the two resolutions.

What? The PZ85U is not double the price of a 5080HD. Not even close to double.


YA

The MSRP of a 5080HD is $2,500 and the 46PZ85 is $2,199.95 a 50pz85 is $2,499.95.

Now the 85 just came out and the 5080 has been out for a while but street prices for the 50PZ85 and 5080 are still about the same with the 46PZ85 2 or so $100 less.

CC had a great price on the 46" PZ85U just yesterday that I scooped up over the weekend. Look for the online coupon for local pick up and you can get the TV for about $1,800.


You won't be disappointed.

pioneer 1080p is about double the price of 780p

What? 1080p is not marketing - i see a huge improvement on a 42" 1080p set at 8 feet and even 10 feet. On a 50 incher i see it at 12 feet and more. Plenty of us can see a distinct difference between the two resolutions.

Why does every seating chart in existence dispute this claim??

What? The PZ85U is not double the price of a 5080HD. Not even close to double.


What? 1080p is not marketing - i see a huge improvement on a 42" 1080p set at 8 feet and even 10 feet. On a 50 incher i see it at 12 feet and more. Plenty of us can see a distinct difference between the two resolutions.

do you have 20/10 vision?

It's sorta like that agade...if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around, does it make a sound...? Not really if your far enough away not to hear it, but get close and you'll notice it....and either way, you always know in your mind the sound is there regardless.....

Same thing with 720 vs 1080. The difference is always there and your mind knows the difference is there. Sit far enough away, and you won't notice it....get closer and you'll see it...but either way, there is surely a difference....just sometimes you can't see it.

i know i will not notice 1080p when i sit about 10' from tv but now days everything is 1080P . So in a year or so i will feel out of date with 780p plasma . I still have a lot of looking to do in to Panny 46PZ85U and 5080HD any one have any input about these two TV's

A year from now your TV will be out of date no matter what the resolution. I wouldn't worry about making something "future proof," since that's impossible.

The bottom line is that if you can't see the difference then don't pay for 1080p. Also, in many cases the 720p panels have superior brightness and contrast ratios.

It's sorta like that agade...if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around, does it make a sound...? Not really if your far enough away not to hear it, but get close and you'll notice it....and either way, you always know in your mind the sound is there regardless.....

Same thing with 720 vs 1080. The difference is always there and your mind knows the difference is there. Sit far enough away, and you won't notice it....get closer and you'll see it...but either way, there is surely a difference....just sometimes you can't see it.


I'm not even saying there's no difference... obviously having 2x the pixels will give you a difference.... hell, I have a 56" 1080p dlp...... all I'm saying is that at the distances your average person sits you wont see the difference.... to get the benefit of 1080p on a 50" tv you'd have to sit like 5' away

Guys, guys.... don't you read? Randy has super-spidey-vision!! :D

I too am very, very skeptical that ANYONE could see the difference between 768p and 1080p at "12 feet or more" on a 50" display. But Randy has maintained this assertion for some time, and he must have really excellent vision, so who knows? I would really love to see a controlled test where the viewer was unaware which was which, and feed a calibrated 50px80u and a 50pz80u (or 5080 and 5010, 50PH10UK and 50PF10UK, whatever pairing you want) identical Blu Ray content and see if anyone can actually tell.... I would be stunned if anyone could accurately identify the 1080p display from 12 feet in a consistent manner.

However, I wouldn't necessarily point to a chart and say flat-out he's wrong. Those charts are averages, and there is a lot of variation between people in sensory sensitivity and cognition. I think it's absurd when somebody posts something like "you have to be 7.6 feet away" as though these things are accurate to the tenth of a foot (i.e. +/- 1.2 inches!).

Soon, there aren't going to be any more 768p panels on the market, which means, there won't be anymore 1080p price premium. I don't think you can find an LCD over 42" that ISN'T 1080p. Remember 1 1/2 years ago the only 50" 1080p plasma on the market was the Pioneer PRO-FHD1 which was available for the low low price of $10,000.............

Now, you can get a 50" 1080p for ~$1800 (even less at some places)!

To summarize - seating distance charts and what Randy's bionic eyes can see, and what my non-bionic yet still 20/20 eyes can't, have absolutely zero bearing on what someone should buy.

Here's what you should do. Figure out how far away from the set you'll be sitting, then go to the store and stand that far away from some sets. If you can't tell the difference (with 50" sets at ~10' I couldn't) buy a 720p set. If you can tell the difference, you have a value judgement to make as to whether the increase cost is justified by the improvement.

HDPeet's right too, in a year or two this will be a non-issue for 42"+ sets.

jeff

I'm not even saying there's no difference... obviously having 2x the pixels will give you a difference.... hell, I have a 56" 1080p dlp...... all I'm saying is that at the distances your average person sits you wont see the difference.... to get the benefit of 1080p on a 50" tv you'd have to sit like 5' away

Oh I don't think you have to sit 5 feet from a 50" TV to get any benefit from 1080p. I sit about 5 feet from a 42" 1080p TV, and there's definitely a lot more detail in the picture than my old 42" 720p. It's not a subtle difference, though the 720p set was certainly very watchable and the comparatively low resolution didn't bother me.

Also, many people have better than 20/20 vision, though no one usually bothers to test beyond 20/20. My vision is much worse than it used to be but I still test at 20/20. I have a friend who can read text on signs that are just a vague blur to me, so I can only image what his vision is like.

What? The PZ85U is not double the price of a 5080HD. Not even close to double.


What? 1080p is not marketing - i see a huge improvement on a 42" 1080p set at 8 feet and even 10 feet. On a 50 incher i see it at 12 feet and more. Plenty of us can see a distinct difference between the two resolutions.

I agree that all other things equal, 1080p is the better resolution.
on a 42 inch I have a a kinda hard time telling much of a difference unless standing really close.
But on 50inches and above, I can tell a small difference. Especially if there is Text being displayed which look a little choppy and the letters look smooth on a 1080p set.. But during a movie it is hard to really tell much of a difference (unless watching subtitles).
Is it worth the price difference?? that depends on what you consider important.
But I have a hard time agreeing that 1080p is useless unless you are on a 58+ display.
But I agree with pete, soon there won't be barely any 720/768p sets out there. So soon the 720p vs 1080p will be a non-issue.

anyone have any info about amazon, thay been out of stock for a wile now are thay gonna get anymore of pioneer 5080 or 5010

anyone have any info about amazon, thay been out of stock for a wile now are thay gonna get anymore of pioneer 5080 or 5010

No, Pioneer isn't shipping anymore 5080 or 5010 (8g), what's out there now is what's left.

The the 2008 9Gs will be available in June (1 month).

ic ,anyone know anything about pricing of new 9G ?

I would really love to see a controlled test where the viewer was unaware which was which, and feed a calibrated 50px80u and a 50pz80u (or 5080 and 5010, 50PH10UK and 50PF10UK, whatever pairing you want) identical Blu Ray content and see if anyone can actually tell.... I would be stunned if anyone could accurately identify the 1080p display from 12 feet in a consistent manner.

Along the lines of your test proposal, but an older test. Nevertheless, the results are enlightening.
http://hometheatermag.com/gearworks/805gearworks/

Since everyone is talking about "THE CHART" I thought it would be useful to post it here. After seeing this chart, and seeing the tvs in the store, I can honestly say that with a 50" tv, I can not see the difference at further than 6'-8' away.

For me, 1080p would have been a COMLETE waste of money. The only way I would have spend 40% more on the same Panny model but with 1080p, would have been if I was building a specific theatre room and was going to be sitting much closer than normal casual tv viewing.

http://www.foxav.net/assets/images/resolution_chart.png

what will be a diffirance in PRO-950HD and PDP-4280HD both are 42 inch and one is elite and other is not

ic ,anyone know anything about pricing of new 9G ?

The MSRPs for the 9Gs are $1000 less than the MSRPs for the 8Gs.

really ?? you have link

what will be a diffirance in PRO-950HD and PDP-4280HD both are 42 inch and one is elite and other is not

Here's a list of things you get with the Elites

- 2 year warranty versus 1 year
- Better color filter (Pro vs Pro Plus)
- Home Media Gallery - networking functionality
- Improved Side mounted speakers versus undermounted speakers
- ISFccc
- New Independent Gamma Control for heightened color calibration
- Remote Control - Illuminated / Present Mode / Learning Mode
- AV Selection Memory - PURE, ISF-Day, ISF-Night
- Advanced Picture-in-Picture (4 positions), Picture-side-Picture for use with Home Media Gallery & Broadcast (3 positions) and Still Picture capability
- Intelligent Mode (off/on)
- Color Temperature Adjustment – 5 settings (High / Mid-High / Mid / Mid-Low / Low)
- Color Temperature Manual Adjustment
- Color Management
- Color Space (1 / 2)
- MPEG Noise Reduction
- Block Noise Reductoin Activatoin (off/on)
- Mosquito Noise Effect
- Mosquito Noise Reduction (off/on)
- 3 DYC (1/2/3)
- I-P Mode
- IR Repeater

really ?? you have link

Yes, here:http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/PressRoom/Press+Releases/Pioneer+Continues+to+Surpass+Black+Level+Performance+with+Ne w+Line+of+2008+KURO+Televisions

And here:http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/PressRoom/Press+Releases/Pioneer+Broadens+2008+Elite+KURO+Line+of+Displays+with+New+S ignature+Series+of+Monitors

thank you, so thay only gonna have 50 and 60 inch

thank you, so thay only gonna have 50 and 60 inch

Correct.

No 42" plasma this year.

thank you .
Based on what i read here , i will be sitting about 12 feet from tv so 50inch will be just fine , and at that distance it will be hard to notice 1080p vs. 780p
BB have 5080HD for $2000 that is with 10%off vs. new 9G Kuro MSRP at $4000

i know i will not notice 1080p when i sit about 10' from tv but now days everything is 1080P . So in a year or so i will feel out of date with 780p plasma . I still have a lot of looking to do in to Panny 46PZ85U and 5080HD any one have any input about these two TV's

huh??? the only thing that is 1080p is blu ray. and a handfull of video games.

Since everyone is talking about "THE CHART" I thought it would be useful to post it here. After seeing this chart, and seeing the tvs in the store, I can honestly say that with a 50" tv, I can not see the difference at further than 6'-8' away.

For me, 1080p would have been a COMLETE waste of money. The only way I would have spend 40% more on the same Panny model but with 1080p, would have been if I was building a specific theatre room and was going to be sitting much closer than normal casual tv viewing.

http://www.foxav.net/assets/images/resolution_chart.png

This chart is absolute proof to me of why I don't believe these charts.

I have a 34" CRT HDTV (1080i). At 8' I should not theoretically not be able to tell HD from SD. That's crap. I can spot HD vs SD at a full on sprint and drunk at 8'. I would take the Pepsi Challenge on 1080p vs 720p at distances that the chart says I should not notice and I GUARANTEE I could pick out the 1080p TV (assuming 1080 source) 10 out of 10 times.

The charts are, from what I can see rubbish. Or they're made by Mr. Magoo.

This chart is absolute proof to me of why I don't believe these charts.

I have a 34" CRT HDTV (1080i). At 8' I should not theoretically not be able to tell HD from SD. That's crap. I can spot HD vs SD at a full on sprint and drunk at 8'. I would take the Pepsi Challenge on 1080p vs 720p at distances that the chart says I should not notice and I GUARANTEE I could pick out the 1080p TV (assuming 1080 source) 10 out of 10 times.

The charts are, from what I can see rubbish. Or they're made by Mr. Magoo.


but is it the difference in resolution you are seeing or the vastly superior image quality do to much higher bitrate?

viewing distance chart,,, BLA BLA BLA... I had a 58" Panny 720p and all I watch is Bluray and HD broadcast. Now Im upgraded to a 58" Panny 1080p and there is a huge differance in quality. I might add that my viewing distance is 20Ft. Also the speed of the panel seems faster also with motion. HD 1080i broadcast is alot clearer also.

So just my opinion and Im kinda picky and like to really look at details. Same tv shows and I now can see real fleshtones. Bluray is just unreal and so much better. Hands down worth it if you want a realistic looking tv.

but is it the difference in resolution you are seeing or the vastly superior image quality do to much higher bitrate?

Dude, it's the resolution. It's the detail in the picture - the grass on a football field, the flaws on the young Ingenue's complexion, the tiny hairs on a catepillar.

The charts are BS. Not only can I spot HD TV at 8' easily - I can tell from a much greater distance than that whether the channel is in HD or SD. Again, I will take the pepsi challenge with anyone who cares to set up the controls.

BTW, I don't have 20:10 vision. or Supervision or Xray vision. As a matter of fact, I'm slightly nearsighted and wear glasses that correct to normal vision.

I'll say it again, those charts are BS. I guaran-dam-tee you ask anyone who's owned and appreciated a 34" CRT HDTV and watches from distances that, according to the chart, should have no appreciable difference between 1080/720 and SD - the people who designed these charts must be blind as bats.

I would not say the chart is total BS but it is VERY misleading.

If someone can't easily tell the difference between a 30" 480 TV and a 30" 1080 TV at 10 feet they need to see there eye doctor and should not be driving. Now can you get the "Full Benefit" I don't know but you do see at-least some benefit.

This chart is absolute proof to me of why I don't believe these charts.

The charts are, from what I can see rubbish. Or they're made by Mr. Magoo.


That is funny :D And I totally agree. The chart is rubbish.

do you have 20/10 vision?

I know you were meaning your quote for someone else, but I just felt the need to reply to your comment.

I actually do have 20/10 vision, and I sit roughly 9 feet away from my 50" 1080p, and I have to say that I don't notice a huge benefit from this distance. Once I scoot in a few feet to bout 6-7 feet, THEN I can see a lot of the extra fine details that come with 1080p, but at 9 feet, I can't tell, so I find it hard to believe when people say they sit 10-12 feet back and can notice a difference. Must be the placebo effect?

huh??? the only thing that is 1080p is blu ray. and a handfull of video games.

I think he meant that damn near every TV is 1080p, not all content is 1080p :)

The issue I see here is that your arguments are all based on non-scientific information. You say you can easily see the difference between 720p and 1080p on a 50" screen from 12' back (for an example) but why is that?

Is the source data the same on the two tvs?
Are both images getting 'optimized content'?
Are both tvs doing a similar job at scaling the content for native resolution?

This is just a small sample of the variables that you are dealing with. This chart has no variables. It is based on science. Science that states that the average human eye can only resolve a certain amount of pixels per square inch. Stop thinking about TVs for a second and consider a photograph. If you have two photographs, both 8x10, one taken with a top of the line SLR camera with 21 Megapixels, and one taken with a recycleable kodak camera, you can tell a distinct difference in pixelation when the photo is held at 5" from your face. Now, take that same photograph 12" away, and then 3' away, and then 6' away. NOT a single human being could tell the pixelation difference at that distance, because your eyes do not work that way. Now, there may be color differences, and exposure differences, (variables) but these are facts regarding pixelation.

Just in the same way that your eyes can only see a certain amount of frames per second. At some point, increasing the FPS of your recorder does NOTHING to improve the quality of the source... because your eyes can only see so much!

While your argument "I can spot HD vs SD at a full on sprint and drunk at 8'. I would take the Pepsi Challenge on 1080p vs 720p at distances that the chart says I should not notice and I GUARANTEE I could pick out the 1080p TV (assuming 1080 source) 10 out of 10 times." is full of OBVIOUS 'variable-holes' this chart was based on science, human anatomy, and studies done in a lab. I tend to believe the chart (and my own eyes) before I believe your rants.

I know you were meaning your quote for someone else, but I just felt the need to reply to your comment.

I actually do have 20/10 vision, and I sit roughly 9 feet away from my 50" 1080p, and I have to say that I don't notice a huge benefit from this distance. Once I scoot in a few feet to bout 6-7 feet, THEN I can see a lot of the extra fine details that come with 1080p, but at 9 feet, I can't tell, so I find it hard to believe when people say they sit 10-12 feet back and can notice a difference. Must be the placebo effect?

Placebo. That would be my guess as well. Well said.

Didn't take long to get off the OP's question about price difference and go directly to who can see what.

Right now 1080P is top of the line so manufactures are charging a higher price markup from cost to produce, this is their cream in the product mix.
In a year or so when 720P is put to rest, 1080P will be selling for the current price or less than todays 720P sets, just like when 480P past on to 720P.

If you are buying a set today and see a difference from your seating distance with the 1080P and you are able to justify the increased price and power consumption go for it.

Oh, and let us not forget, that some people confuse 1080p TV's with 1080p content. By that I mean that they say they can tell a difference between 720p and 1080p from a far distance (10 feet) but what they are actually comparing is the source i.e Blu-Ray vs. HD cable, and NOT 1080p TV vs. 720p TV. Anyone can tell a difference between 720p content and 1080p content, but the point I am trying to make is that its hard to tell the difference between a 720p TV and a 1080p TV.

I would be willing to bet that if you stuck a 50" 720p Panasonic plasma right next to a 50" 1080p Plasma, and fed them both a 1080p source (blu-ray), and had people sit 10 feet away, 99% of the people watching couldn't legitimately tell the difference between the two. Now, come in a few feet closer, and then people could tell a few differences, but at 10 feet, it is damn near impossible.

Dude, it's the resolution. It's the detail in the picture - the grass on a football field, the flaws on the young Ingenue's complexion, the tiny hairs on a catepillar.

The charts are BS. Not only can I spot HD TV at 8' easily - I can tell from a much greater distance than that whether the channel is in HD or SD. Again, I will take the pepsi challenge with anyone who cares to set up the controls.

BTW, I don't have 20:10 vision. or Supervision or Xray vision. As a matter of fact, I'm slightly nearsighted and wear glasses that correct to normal vision.

I'll say it again, those charts are BS. I guaran-dam-tee you ask anyone who's owned and appreciated a 34" CRT HDTV and watches from distances that, according to the chart, should have no appreciable difference between 1080/720 and SD - the people who designed these charts must be blind as bats.


I couldnt have said it better. The charts are total BS for people that like to follow whatever someone tells them instead of thinking for themselves.

The fact is that no one can tell you what your eyes see although they will try to.

This chart is absolute proof to me of why I don't believe these charts.

I have a 34" CRT HDTV (1080i). At 8' I should not theoretically not be able to tell HD from SD. That's crap. I can spot HD vs SD at a full on sprint and drunk at 8'. I would take the Pepsi Challenge on 1080p vs 720p at distances that the chart says I should not notice and I GUARANTEE I could pick out the 1080p TV (assuming 1080 source) 10 out of 10 times.

The charts are, from what I can see rubbish. Or they're made by Mr. Magoo.
You're mis-interpreting the chart. The chart doesn't say that you can't see the difference between SD and HD. The source material is inherently inferior in the case of SD.

What the chart says is that an a certain distance, your eye can't resolve the pixel size that would correspond to that material resolution. In other words, if you feed your 34" TV the same HD signal and stand back 8', you won't be able to tell if the TV is showing you 1080 lines of resolution, or 720 lines of resolution (or maybe even 480 lines of resolution) - WITH THE SAME SOURCE.

The chart is a scientific estimate of what your eye can see in DISPLAY RESOLUTION, not source resolution!
Also the speed of the panel seems faster also with motion. HD 1080i broadcast is alot clearer also.

So just my opinion and Im kinda picky and like to really look at details. Same tv shows and I now can see real fleshtones. Bluray is just unreal and so much better. Hands down worth it if you want a realistic looking tv.
What do these things have to do with resolution? Maybe you are seeing a better picture with your new TV merely because it's just a better TV, regardless of resolution.

i will be buying tv in next two or three months . I still have lots of reading to do , but i got turnoff from LCD bc of all the issues thay have. Im now trying to dig more in to plasmas, my budget is around 2K +/- $200

Dude, it's the resolution. It's the detail in the picture - the grass on a football field, the flaws on the young Ingenue's complexion, the tiny hairs on a catepillar.

You are confusing differences in detail from the media with the rendering of detail on the display.

You can watch SD at a distance of 1 foot on your screen and you won't see tiny hairs on the caterpillar or the grass on the football field because those details aren't in the signal. You can display SD on a 1440p display and you still won't see these details regardless of viewing distance. The chart tells you when you will notice differences when viewing the same media on displays at various resolutions.

The viewing chart is a good guide for people who are wondering if they will see things like SDE on the display at a particular distance. I have 20/15 vision and I can't see any SDE beyond ~8feet on a 768p 5080.

What I can see, however, are occasional re-sampling artifacts for 1080i material (like jaggies on diagonal lines on text) but these are incredibly rare.

It has been said many times around here...the least important criterion for picture quality is a move from 720p to 1080p. We tried and returned a panny 1080p 77u unit. When my wife saw the 768p 5080 she said 'Wow. Thats obviously the best picture'. Why? Because contrast, colour, and black levels are far more important. The transition from 768p to 1080p at 8ft, on the other hand, is BARELY perceptible for a 50" display even for people with better than 20/20 vision.

It has been said many times around here...the least important criterion for picture quality is a move from 720p to 1080p.Yes, it has been said ad nauseam around here by people who do not understand and are ignorant. I can guarantee you that if you like to sit close enough to enjoy the additional detail available in a 1080 feed, and have good enough vision to be bothered by SDE at closer range, it is just as important, if not more so, as any other PQ factor. It's very hard to enjoy outstanding contrast or color if you are continuously distracted by pixel structure and a non-smooth image, period.


ron

I can guarantee you that if you like to sit close enough to enjoy the additional detail available in a 1080 feed...

Ahhh... yes, but this is the point. NORMAL people in NORMAL viewing situations don't sit close enough to see a difference. No one is going to watch a 50" tv from closer than 6' in a normal living room. Odds are you're soing to sit between 8' and 18'

If you're building a home theatre, and you'll be sitting VERY close or have a VERY large screen (over 56") then by all means, 1080p is worth every penny. But for a basic living room screen, 90% of people will never know the difference and it is a COMPLETE waste of money.

MikeInfinity is right... for normal TV viewing situations, you are FAR better off concentrating on contrast, color saturation, processing capabilities, and alike. It really doesn't seem like there should be a debate on this... but I think people with 1080p get a little bit defensive on the topic, possibly?

Yes, it has been said ad nauseam around here by people who do not understand and are ignorant. I can guarantee you that if you like to sit close enough to enjoy the additional detail available in a 1080 feed, and have good enough vision to be bothered by SDE at closer range, it is just as important, if not more so, as any other PQ factor. It's very hard to enjoy outstanding contrast or color if you are continuously distracted by pixel structure and a non-smooth image, period.


ron



:rolleyes: tell me you think a 1080p vizio looks better than a 720p kuro

Oh, and let us not forget, that some people confuse 1080p TV's with 1080p content.

You're mis-interpreting the chart. The chart doesn't say that you can't see the difference between SD and HD. The source material is inherently inferior in the case of SD.

You are confusing differences in detail from the media with the rendering of detail on the display.

All you guys get a cookie.

If you're going to say a chart is "rubbish", at least understand what the chart is freaking saying. SD content looks like garbage from any distance, but that's IRRELEVANT to the chart.

Furthermore, the chart is an AVERAGE. There will be variation.

Again, nobody is saying you can't see the difference between a crappy 480i analog broadcast SD station and an HD station from 10 feet or 15 feet or whatever. They are saying, IF YOU FEED TWO TV'S IDENTICAL CONTENT, you will be unable to see the difference in TV RESOLUTION from the given distances.

i.e. sit 10 feet from a 50" pio 5080 and a 50" pio 5010 (both calibrated identically), and feed both identical content from a 1080p blu ray, and then see if you can identify which panel is 768p and which is 1080p. Or in the 34" CRT analogy, it would be the comparison between HD content fed to a nice 480i CRT vs. a nice 1080i CRT. That is a TOTALLY different story then what all the contrarians are talking about.

So, in summary, understand what you are actually arguing against before you click "submit reply".

:rolleyes: tell me you think a 1080p vizio looks better than a 720p kuro

Thanks for the irrelevant contribution. Did I miss the part where it was asserted that all 1080p TV's look better than all 768p TV's?

The operating premise here is ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, except for resolution. Thanks for playing.

Thanks for the irrelevant contribution. Did I miss the part where it was asserted that all 1080p TV's look better than all 768p TV's?

The operating premise here is ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, except for resolution. Thanks for playing.

he explicitly said resolution is more important than color and contrast :]
thus by his assertion a low end tv like a westinghouse or vizio that's 1080p should look better than a 720p tv like a kuro

Um, not really. Reading comprehension and basic logic, por favor:

Quoted with parsing:


I can guarantee you that:

(QUALIFIER #1) if you like to sit close enough to enjoy the additional detail available in a 1080 feed, and

(QUALIFIER #2) [if you] have good enough vision to be bothered by SDE at closer range,

(CONCLUSION) [resolution] is just as important, if not more so, as any other PQ factor. It's very hard to enjoy outstanding contrast or color if you are continuously distracted by pixel structure and a non-smooth image, period.

He did not "explicitly [say] resolution is more important than color and contrast".

He said, IF YOU MEET THE QUALIFIED CONDITIONS, then resolution is AT LEAST AS (quite different than "more than") important as other PQ attributes, because ONCE YOU HAVE MET THESE QUALIFIED CONDITIONS (being close enough & having good enough vision to see SDE/pixel structure), the lack of resolution is so distracting that everything else doesn't matter.

So, in this context, a 1080p Vizio may indeed be preferable because he would be so close that he couldn't enjoy the Kuro. And before you jump down my throat, I'm just playing devil's advocate here to your false implication, I'm not arguing that Vizio > Kuro.

Yes, it has been said ad nauseam around here by people who do not understand and are ignorant.

I'm not sure why it would nauseate anyone to point out that at average viewing distances on a 50" TV with average eyes people can't tell the difference.

A fact is a fact. What's not to understand?

I can guarantee you that if you like to sit close enough to enjoy the additional detail available in a 1080 feed, and have good enough vision to be bothered by SDE at closer range, it is just as important, if not more so, as any other PQ factor.

1. most people don't sit close enough to notice with normal eyesight.
2. even if you do notice, I don't believe the vast majority of people would agree that they care about the effect of SDE at 6ft more than they care about...say...CONTRAST.

Everyone notices the colour and contrast on my kuro and are immeditately impressed. No one noticed that I the set wasn't 1080p even when I had one right beside it for comparison at 8ft.

Of course, all this is subjective. If it really bugs you, then go for it.

do you have 20/10 vision?

I do have 20/10 vision and I really can't see a strong difference between the two resolutions.

im in the market for a new TV i was in LCD at fist but that after all the issues with them i moved to Plasma. now i narrow down to Panny 46PZ85U and Pioneer 5080HD that is 780p why does 1080p double the price from 780p

Remember the line, " there's a sucker born every day":D

I know you were meaning your quote for someone else, but I just felt the need to reply to your comment.

I actually do have 20/10 vision, and I sit roughly 9 feet away from my 50" 1080p, and I have to say that I don't notice a huge benefit from this distance. Once I scoot in a few feet to bout 6-7 feet, THEN I can see a lot of the extra fine details that come with 1080p, but at 9 feet, I can't tell, so I find it hard to believe when people say they sit 10-12 feet back and can notice a difference. Must be the placebo effect?

Speaking of psychological concepts, there's also something known as Just Noticeable Difference effect, and you've actually just described it pretty well. It's the point at which a change can be observed. I can tell you that I do observe a difference between sets under the parameter's you describe above. The point at which differences become noticeable varies between individuals so it's entirely possible that you and I won't observe the same benefits in the situation you describe above. This isn't to say that the difference between the two is vast (not like viewing SD v HD), but it's there. Whether it's worth the cost to move up to 1080 is a different matter though.

probably mostly marketing.... unless you sit really close to your tv... or you're buying a massive 56"+ tv there's no need for 1080p


Yes that seems to be what the vast majority of people have told me. I sit about 6.5 feet away from my screen (pretty close imo) and I went with a Panasonic 42" Plasma 720p. I love it, and have no buyer's remorse whatsoever.

1080p is marketing the same way 720p is....

Its more expensive because it costs more to produce and its higher in demand.

Won't it be nice in a year or so when the countless debates on this will be over. I sure we will find some thing new to debate :)

Yeah, it'll be when someone puts out the 1440P then all of a sudden 1080P is going to suck and the 1440P is the way to go and you'll now have 1trillion:1 CR and the 1billion : 1 isn't going to be good enough either.

At some point it really is just getting retarded.

im in the market for a new TV i was in LCD at fist but that after all the issues with them i moved to Plasma. now i narrow down to Panny 46PZ85U and Pioneer 5080HD that is 780p why does 1080p double the price from 780p

Because that's what the market will bear. Some people are willing to pay a premium for "newer" or "hypothetically better" or even "really better;" some people won't. When the former group outnumbers the latter group, prices are higher.

Some of us had to buy a 1080p set simply because bigger is better (isn't it?) and we would not otherwise be able to face our peer group. If I told them I'd bought a 720p, they might have started to question my manhood ;)

More pixels on the same size screen make things sharper crisper and more detailed, that's why most PC gamers love to play at high resolutions is because you get a much better visual experience, that why you don't use 800x600 on your computer screen, I miself use 1650x1080 because the finished product that I am viewing on the screen looks so much better at high resolution.
So when people say you can't see the difference, are the ones who are tight with the wallet and want to keep telling themselves that it is the same 1080p and 720p, like the saying goes, you get what you pay for. I and many others can see the difference.

Yeah, but you sit 1 or 2 feet from a computer monitor :rolleyes:

Nothing is funnier than the people who play the "you're just jealous because you can't afford it" card. There are so many people on this forum with so much disposable income that this argument does not fly...

More pixels on the same size screen make things sharper crisper and more detailed, that's why most PC gamers love to play at high resolutions is because you get a much better visual experience, that why you don't use 800x600 on your computer screen, I miself use 1650x1080 because the finished product that I am viewing on the screen looks so much better at high resolution.

I use 1920x1200 on my 24" Dell monitor...but as the other poster mentioned...I sit about two whole feet away from that screen. My couch is not 2 feet away from my 50" plasma though.

So when people say you can't see the difference, are the ones who are tight with the wallet and want to keep telling themselves that it is the same 1080p and 720p, like the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

On the other hand, there are those who believe all the hype and pay more and believe they see a difference past 8 feet on a 50 inch display even if they can't. Its like the saying goes, 'suckers are born every minute'.

I and many others can see the difference.

So can I...just not at the distance anyone would sit from my 50" TV.