Tough choice... I have no way to pre-view the Benq.

Setup: Room is 30 feet deep, so throw is not an issue. Screen is Vutec 1.3 gain 133" 16:9. Light controlled room that will have 3 rows of seating.

Viewing Habits: 80% movies from SD DVD, HD-DVD, possibley BD player later. 10% sports from FIOS source, 10% video games from X-Box 360.

Option A: B-stock RS1 paired with Denon 3808ci receiver.

Option B: Used Benq W10000 + Refurb DVDO VP50 + Onkyo 805 or similar receiver that doesn't upscale.

Assume cost is similar for either package.

Thoughts? All the choices and tradeoffs are staggering! Just when I think I have a decision, another cool option pops up!

Thank you!

John

What are the important characterisitcs for you as it relates to the picture....what do you look for?

Black level
contrast
brightness
color uniformity
sharpness
Whatever else you deem important.

List what's the most important 3 or 4 ...both of these projectors/technology have their strengths and weaknesses.

What are the important characterisitcs for you as it relates to the picture....what do you look for?

Black level
contrast
brightness
color uniformity
sharpness
Whatever else you deem important.

List what's the most important 3 or 4 ...both of these projectors/technology have their strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks for the help! I'll do my best to rank these in order of importance to me.


3D effect (depth of picture, not flat looking or 2d)
Suitable brightness on 133" 1.3 gain screen - but I am not a brightness freak by any means.
Vibrance and 'pop'
A watchable fatigue free picture (I would trade ultra detail for smooth watchability ... sort of like trading horn tweeters for silk domes, if you know what I mean).
Tweakability (can I customize the picture to my liking?)


I've tried to stray away from typical PJ terms here because frankly I'm not certain I understand the definitions. I hope my simple descriptions of what I'm looking for can be understood by all.

The JVC gives you many more placement options, but it sounds like that is not critical in your room.

Have you compared DLP and LCOS? The two look different. DLP is sharper, but the blacks and contrast will be better on the JVC.

The BenQ gives you much more in the way of color control and has all the built in scaling you need to do 2.35. The JVC does not.

Curious about the "packages" - why do you get a scalar with the W10000 but not the JVC?

I would have bought the W10000 because of built in scaling, but it wouldn't work in my room, so I bought the RS1. I also have the 3808.

Kelly

The DLP will have more of the 3d pop etc. I get eye fatigue from the DLP though YMMV.
It takes me about an hour watching DLP to start having the fatique. It isn't something that I would have noticed just going and previewing one at a dealer.


I don't get your VP50 with the one and not the other. ??

Thanks for the comments and thoughts!

I haven't seen a dlp pj yet, and there isn't an easy way to see one. The comment on fatigue is interesting.

VP50 could come with the Benq because: Benq + refurb vp50 + 805 is cheaper than RS1 + 3808. RS1 + refurb vp50 + 805 is interesting but $600 more expensive (over budget).

John

Thanks for the comments and thoughts!

I haven't seen a dlp pj yet, and there isn't an easy way to see one. The comment on fatigue is interesting.

VP50 could come with the Benq because: Benq + refurb vp50 + 805 is cheaper than RS1 + 3808. RS1 + refurb vp50 + 805 is interesting but $600 more expensive (over budget).

John
You could spend some time watching large rear-projection DLPs at a Best Buy or Circuit City. That's the next best thing if you want to check your sensitivity to rainbows.

I wonder why you feel need a VP with the BenQ and not with the JVC?

I'd just skip on the VP and buy a nice projector.

Go see some DLPs (either RP or FP) and see if it's for you.
Only a small (unfortunate) fraction of people are bothered by color separation issues that occur with DLP. Even some people get used to them (their brain is trained to them).

Remember, all video systems are "artificial" in that they have to fool the brain to see a continuous picture made out of pixels.
After all, scanning an interleaved line into a continuous picture (CRT) doesn't sound natural at all but billions of people have been watching it for decades...

As a side note, I don't get eye fatigue nearly as bad on the smaller DLP RPTVs for some reason. The rainbows and the fatigue are different issues in my book.

The rainbows and the fatigue are different issues in my book.

I have experienced neither but it seems to me that they are two flavors of the same mechanism.

The separated colors overwhelm the brain in some people and in its struggle to "make sense" of it, it turns into fatigue and headaches.

In some people it is not as extreme and they just see separation in some instances (extreme contrast scenes, head movement, eyes scanning the screen rapidly etc.) A smaller screen helps as there is not as much eye movement.

In most people, all these are non issues or the brain learns to "decode/encode" the signals it receives into images that resemble reality.

I wonder why you feel need a VP with the BenQ and not with the JVC?


Hello Andrikos. It"s not that I neeeeed the vp with the benq and not with the JVC. It's that I can afford the vp with the Benq. I can't afford it with the JVC.

The VP would give me superior upscaling to the 3808 with non high def sources like cable sports. Plus I am assuming it offers other advantages. In addition, if I upgraded the PJ later, I can keep the VP50.

Benq + VP50 is about the same cost as RS1. I hope this clears up the choice before me. Sorry if this was unclear.

The hard part is deciding what is preferable.

Thanks to all on the thoughts and suggestions. It seems the right answer depends on whether I like the look of DLP. Next step is to find one to go see! I have a couple weeks before I need to make a decision.

Your thoughts are appreciated!

Which dealer has B-stock RS1s available? Are these the same as refurb's?

Skeet,

Sent you a PM.

As a side note, I don't get eye fatigue nearly as bad on the smaller DLP RPTVs for some reason. The rainbows and the fatigue are different issues in my book.

I agree on both points...don't know if RP's are the best test.

I can't believe people are beating around the bush.

RS1 provides a much better image than the Benq.

My bias is, admittedly, towards black level, contrast and 'pop'.

I would never trade the somewhat roseate colours of the RS1 for the always dingy blacks of the W10000.

As for the Video Processing, the Gennum in the JVC has a slight weakness converting 480i to 480P. That aside it is close to state of the art and the equivalent of a VP50 for upscaling.

In your case I'd just get a receiver or DVD player with good de-interlacing for SD sources and feed the RS1 a 480P signal.

I can't believe people are beating around the bush.

RS1 provides a much better image than the Benq.

My bias is, admittedly, towards black level, contrast and 'pop'.

I would never trade the somewhat roseate colours of the RS1 for the always dingy blacks of the W10000.

As for the Video Processing, the Gennum in the JVC has a slight weakness converting 480i to 480P. That aside it is close to state of the art and the equivalent of a VP50 for upscaling.

In your case I'd just get a receiver or DVD player with good de-interlacing for SD sources and feed the RS1 a 480P signal.

Thanks, Steve, for your good post. I figured the RS1 would be better than the Benq, but is it $1000 better?

The RS1 is a bright PJ, but the Benq looks like it might be brighter, and I have that 133" screen.

So the question for me: Is the RS1 worth $1000 more than the Benq given a 1.3 gain 133" screen?

Also consider that I am a major bang per buck purchaser (read: tightwad). Sometimes I feel like PJs at this level are splitting hairs on quality, and perhaps differences some call "major" aren't even noticeable unless you torture yourself with a side by side comparison.

Steve, I'd love for you to weigh in on this since it seems like you've seen both of these PJs. I appreciate your insight.

Thanks,

John

Given my biases, the differences are significant enough for me that I would pay the $1000.

When I had an RS1, it was projecting onto a 133" grey screen using the low lamp setting. The RS1 had 700 hours on it.

I can't believe people are beating around the bush.

RS1 provides a much better image than the Benq.

My bias is, admittedly, towards black level, contrast and 'pop'.

I would never trade the somewhat roseate colours of the RS1 for the always dingy blacks of the W10000.

It's not nearly that simple "in general", I should know, I spent a good 2-3 months running around in circles trying to figure out if I should go with a RS1 or one of the new BenQ models.

They've both got their positives and they've both got their negatives. The JVC has the category-leading black level performance, but really that's it's only standout area, it's got average intra-scene contrast for a LCoS and falls short of DLP in intra-scene contrast. It's got way out there colors, and it's only of slightly above average brightness (and only for a LCoS), and finally it can't do any aspect ratio control on HD inputs.

As for the BenQs, well, they've got the signature DLP sharpness (actually above average for a DLP), intrascene-contrast (offen what "pop" is attributed to), spot on colors, and full AR control regardless of resolution, oh, and the new models have HQV processing. Of course they have some drawbacks as well, such as the limited black lever performance (compared to JVC), and of course the possibility of rainbows.

All said and done, given that I was coming from a DLP (InFocus), the relative cost, and the fact that my screen is 110" wide 1.16 gain AT scope, I decided to go with the W5000. I figured the JVC, based on Jason's measurements, would just barely hit 12 ftL on my screen when new, and I just wasn't prepared to sacrifice the brightness, DLP simultaneous contrast, or dough to go with the RS1.

I'm not saying don't get the RS1, it's a great machine with legions of loyal followers. I'm just saying that it's not necessarilly as cut and dry as "RS1's better". DLP has legions of loyal followers as well, despite not measuring as well in some areas, it does better in others.

One last thing, and what really pushed me over the edge when I finally upgraded. It comes down to the idea of where on the cost/performance spectrum you buy. I had this dilemma initially when I chose the IN76 over the 8720, the IN76 was about half the price. At the time, I bought the IN76 because I knew there'd be 1080p stuff coming out in a short period, but I was unwilling to wait. That turned out to be a good decision because had I chosen the 8720, it would have been much harder for me to justify upgrading.

I basically made the same decision again, I opted to go for the option that was about half the price, but still great performance, this way, in maybe 18 months when I've got the itch again, I won't feel "stuck" with my choice. Technology moves so fast these days, and the price of performance drops so quickly, I think there's definitely something to be said for buying just behind the edge/curve, and buying more often.

For me, I would pay the extra 1K for the RS1, but I like the LCOS look better than DLP for the stuff that I want to look best for me. Movies.

DLP and LCOS have a totally different look to me. So for the OP, have you seen both? If you spend some time with both, there are enough differences that you would be able to figure out what would work best for you.

After much reading and research (and knowing my own preferences), I decided to pick up the RS1 Refurb. It arrived yesterday well before my HT was painted and ready.

But I set it up on a subwoofer box, connected it to an XA2, popped in Planet Earth, and projected a 133" image onto my textured buff colored basement wall with light coming into the room.

:eek:

My first impression is WOW! I am very happy with my purchase. Plenty bright even in that environment and at that size. Image quality was amazing considering I was projecting to a textured off-white wall. Once I get the screen wall painted black and a real screen up, it should be much improved. But out of the box, this PJ was very impressive. I can't wait to be set up so I can tweak!

My wife: "That is amazing!!"

My 18 year old son: "Holy $#!^ !!"

We all just sat there and watched Planet Earth HD DVD for about 1/2 hour with no sound, mezmerized.

I know.... maybe we're too easily pleased. LOL.

Thanks to everyone for your advice and help.

I would choose the RS1 over the DLP. After calibration it is actually one of the brightest HT quality PJs on the market. It comes so close to D65 from the factory, that you don't really have to have it calibrated. It's higher CR and darker black make a very noticeable improvement in PQ.

My RS1 is on its second lamp and has about 4000 hours of use. It is proving to be very reliable and I expect it will last longer than my DLP PJ did.

Since brightness is a major concern of yours, mount the RS1 in the very front of its throw (pull the lens back into its widest angle). This is its brightest setting. Also try not to mount it near the extremes of its vertical lens shift. Don't use the horizontal lens shift at all.

Even though the RS1 isn't perfect, I love it. Whenever I watch a PJ with substantially lesser CR than the RS1, I can't help but be dissappointed. For me, this would be a clear cut decision.

Glenn

RS1-2 for sure. I am not RBS but do get eye fatigue from DLP. I find LCD and LCOS totally free from this issue and can watch them comfortably all night long.

For the OP: what did you do? When you say 133" screen, are you referring to diagonal or actual width? and what is your ambient light situation?

For everyone else: I'm looking to put in a drop down wide screen, 133" or so--not diagonal but width, in 16:9--in a family/game room setup. Will the RS-1 still be a good choice here, or would you all recommend a 1) higher gain eg DaLite Hi Gain or similar, or 2) different PJ?

Ham,

My screen is 133" 16:9 (diagonal), about 10' wide. It's a Vutec 1.3 gain screen.

I bought a B-stock RS1 from AVScience. My room has two windows, but will eventually be totally light controlled.

I just set up my PJ a couple days ago. For now, even with ambient light, I am very impressed with the brightness. It gets even better after sundown, but it is perfectly watchable even with ambient light.

Now understand that the bulb will dim over time, so I expect I'll have to go to bright mode eventually. But so far, the RS1 has zero problems on this type of screen. Very impressive.