While I totally agree with this (and I'll probably have this TV for the next 10 years), unfortunately that's how I justified spending more then I wanted for the 6020 I have on pre-order. There's just no way I can justify or afford another bump up to the Elite.

I'm hoping that even without these settings, the 6020 will still be better then anything else non-elite out there and also better then the 6010. I decided I'm going to roll the dice and not cancel my pre-order. It's more then a little frustrating though that after months of reading these forums, finally making a concrete decision, saving up and even selling some things on Ebay, then patiently waiting for the 9G to be released that there's doubt in my mind again.

+1! ! ! !

Sorry, late to the party.
This is a shame - imo.
Looks like I definitely have to save enough for a 111 now instead of possibly going with a 5020. I wanted an elite anyway, but the price is an obstacle....but they seem to have made my mind up for me.
Considering they set out to make the best PDP's and accomplished that, you'd think they wouldn't "dumb down" for Joe6pack.

so, what are you doing with your 1150HD?!

how can this be possible? This seems to have become a "cliche".........How can what be possible?

. But in my mind, it's a no-brainer, especially when you consider the life of the TV and spread out the additional cost of the Elite over the years of ownership. That's many years down the road as I don't ever sell my TV's, rather I'll move them to another room when I upgrade my main viewer, or I'll donate them to a charity.

If a TV is worth a certain price than it's worth a certain price. It doesn't matter how many years you spread the price out for, it still costs the same.

I am not saying the elite is not worth it, I seem to be headed in the elite route too. But I don't beleive spreading the price over a certain amount an year makes a difference at all. Unless you are saying that you would keep the elite for 10 years and the non elite for only 6 or 7 years.

I cant believe how big this thread is. This is my virgin post so it hurts a little...

For some reason I thought that the non-elites were going to have the same video processing as the 2007 elites. If that is true, then it is not out of the realm of someone to activate advanced settings that were in last years elites.

I think that Pioneer is also doing a solid job, as 2008 seems to have a lot more value. All the sets are 5 times more black. The non-elites have the LAN connection/USB (will the signature though), and I think people are forgetting the "Optimum mode" on all KURO's. Who knows how good this will calibrate your TV for you. Its not like 07, where it was night or day. Its constantly changing the settings.

I was hoping to get a PRO150FD for cheap when the 08's come out, but I think its clear that I am going to get a 6020, or a 141 if the price is right (although I don't know if I can wait till the fall).

How can what be possible?how much more deep and intense can blacks get than what we're experiencing with current models (beyond what human's can interpret)?

i too would like d-nice or robert to comment on this please

i too am in the point that i can only get the PRO-1150 or the 5020fd but little comes along the settings issue, so how does it play out?


D-Nice, Thanks for the input. Believe me I would love to have the extra couple grand to get a Elite, it just is not possible I am already pushing it pretty far for a 5020 as is.

Was hoping that a 5020 with a ISF calibration will still yield a fantastic picture
If you still think out of the box settings for a 5020 is still better then anything from any other manufacturer (minus of course the Elites) then I will go with that. Obviously its hard to say before looking at it personally but we could have guesses based on options.

Thanks again for all your assistance and support. It is greatly appreciated.



oi same question here


Damn!
I wonder......Excluding the Elite, is the 5020 still going to be the best 50" plasma on the market, post-calibration included?
Any speculations?



westcoastd if i understand correctly the 8g it still does not match the bezel fram black, so apprently theirs more black that can blend in with the frame.

how much more deep and intense can blacks get than what we're experiencing with current models (beyond what human's can interpret)?

how much more deep and intense can blacks get than what we're experiencing with current models (beyond what human's can interpret)?Going from a minimum luminance level of 0.004fL to 0.001fL (or better) equated to a 400% increase in on/off contrast. Marketing says 400% equals 5x. So that is where the slogan comes from.

Everyone who has seen the 9Gs say there is a noticable improvement in both blacks and colors. None have said that difference is "slight". If you've ever compared an 7G to an 8G the difference between the 8G and 9G will be simlar but not ectactly the same.

Going from a minimum luminance level of 0.004fL to 0.001fL (or better) equated to a 400% increase in on/off contrast. Marketing says 400% equals 5x. So that is where the slogan comes from.

Does 0.000fL = ECC?

Does 0.00fL = ECC?0fL equals ECC....which is STILL planned for next year.

0fL equals ECC....which is STILL planned for next year.

Right.. And isn't ECC a bit overhyped then? If you can get 0.001fL now? or wait more than a year for that extra 1/1000th of a fL?.. Isn't 9G for all intents and purposes, pretty damn 'ECC' in it's own right? There's very little left to go, and potentially very little to notice.

I noticed that, with Movie mode, Enhancer is set to 1. Yet, D-Nice suggests Enhancer should always be at 2. This seems problematic. Perhaps the Enhancer for the 9Gs will be set up differently than the 8Gs?

Right.. And isn't ECC a bit overhyped then? If you can get 0.001fL now? or wait more than a year for that extra 1/1000th of a fL?.. Isn't 9G for all intents and purposes, pretty damn 'ECC' in it's own right? There's very little left to go, and potentially very little to notice.

I'd say you're correct.

The ideal viewing condition is NOT a pitch black room. The increase in contrast will be welcome though. However, under ideal viewing circumstances, especially if you utilize 6500 bias lighting, the difference will most likely be impossible to notice.

Right.. And isn't ECC a bit overhyped then?That depends on who you ask. I personally don't need ECC. The 9Gs are more than enough.

If you can get 0.001fL now? or wait more than a year for that extra 1/1000th of a fL?.. Isn't 9G for all intents and purposes, pretty damn 'ECC' in it's own right? There's very little left to go, and potentially very little to notice.0 is zero. 0.001 does not equal zero. Going from a very small idle glow to no glow is major for some people. I'm not one of those people. 8G idle is satisfying to me. 9G is even more satisfying and it will significantly improve low APL scenes.

Right.. And isn't ECC a bit overhyped then? If you can get 0.001fL now? or wait more than a year for that extra 1/1000th of a fL?.. Isn't 9G for all intents and purposes, pretty damn 'ECC' in it's own right? There's very little left to go, and potentially very little to notice.

Should see better power savings to boot. Which is what I would like.
Oh, and lower pricing. Or at least they should be able to produce it cheaper, which may not mean lower MSRP out to us.

I noticed that, with Movie mode, Enhancer is set to 1. Yet, D-Nice suggests Enhancer should always be at 2. This seems problematic. Perhaps the Enhancer for the 9Gs will be set up differently than the 8Gs?Typo. The 1 belongs in the Gamma column. I've corrected the post.

Going from a minimum luminance level of 0.004fL to 0.001fL (or better) equated to a 400% increase in on/off contrast. Marketing says 400% equals 5xI see, thanks!

Wow! This should swing many people over to the Elites. I mean not being able to do something as simple as turn off DRE when you want to...dumb dumb dumb. :rolleyes:

I'd wager most people were considering the '20's primarily for their price. For people into it enough to know, it's probably going to swing them to temporary mid-range models at half the price rather than Elites and Signatures--that is if the omission really bothers them. The Big Box consumer isn't going to know or care one way or the other, but I have to question just how many people there are that walz into Best Buys to buy $4000 and $5500 displays on a whim.

Just how destructive were these features on the 8G's? Noise reduction absolutely destroys LCD's, I would sooner buy the lowest end Vizio than put up with permanent Noise Reduction on an XBR.

based on the brochure's information i take it that the color temperature can not be changed in the 5020 or the 6020 - is this correct?

if this is correct - does anyone know what the temperature settings are for each of the av selections?


one more thing - i have a feeling that the 10g's will be 50, 58 and 65

Mr. Nice. I've seen you comment that next year's 10G will have ECC. Can you also comment as to whether or not there are any sizes larger than 60" planned or rumored and what they might be?

Any feedback you have would be sincerely appreciated!

D-NICE,
Can you please provide me with some settings for my 110fd?!!
I don't want to adjust individual colors or do anything like that until it gets professionally calibrated. Can you give me some settings to use on "User" mode for the first 3 months or so.
Thanks D :)

I think people are overreacting to the settings issue. Also I think it was probably pretty smart of pioneer. Unlike some previous generations, it appears this year the 5020 and 6020 will be almost the exact same panel as the elites. The elites however have many more picture adjustments. So, both sets will dazzle with the same PQ out of the box. However, pioneer is now clearly targeting two types of buyers - the majority, which never delve past the standard contrast, tint, brightness etc. (which are still the most important tweaks by FAR), and the elite buyers, which will pay an extra 20 percent for every tweak in the book.

Remember that pioneer simply took away some specific presets (which is what these settings essentially were) and incorporated them into a larger tree of presets. If the non-elites had RGB sliders and they took those away, that would be far worse. But you always needed to go elite to get those anyway

Really, as long as one mode (movie probably) offers a good combination of those settings, there is no difference from last year on this issue. And the other PQ improvements the series offers will blow all other Tvs out of the water. For those considering the 5020/6020, they will still be the second-best sets available.

I know that the 151FD has more options, features and enhancements than the 150FD, but if I remember correctly, the 151 is losing a component connection? Can someone tell me the features that the 151 will NOT have that the 150s have? I might too by-pass the 9s if the 8s have something I personally like that have been removed from the 9s.

Thanks.

Uh? Why did my name come up in red? Did I press something wrong?

Mr. Nice. I've seen you comment that next year's 10G will have ECC. Can you also comment as to whether or not there are any sizes larger than 60" planned or rumored and what they might be?

Any feedback you have would be sincerely appreciated!

+1

Since the 10G Pio's will start using Panasonic glass and Panny offers
a 65" plasma, is there a chance that Pioneer might release a 65" Kuro?

D-NICE,
Can you please provide me with some settings for my 110fd?!!
I don't want to adjust individual colors or do anything like that until it gets professionally calibrated. Can you give me some settings to use on "User" mode for the first 3 months or so.
Thanks D :)http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858851

I don't want to speak for D-Nice, and forgive me if you already saw this, but I believe he gave settings in the 8G settings thread on the first page.

See posts #1 & #6.

(Sorry, lame first post...)

D-NICE,
Can you please provide me with some settings for my 110fd?!!
I don't want to adjust individual colors or do anything like that until it gets professionally calibrated. Can you give me some settings to use on "User" mode for the first 3 months or so.
Thanks D :)

Mr. Nice. I've seen you comment that next year's 10G will have ECC. Can you also comment as to whether or not there are any sizes larger than 60" planned or rumored and what they might be?

Any feedback you have would be sincerely appreciated!No comment

No comment

I'm pretty sure I've seen D-Nice or someone else comment that a 70" would be forthcoming. But I don't want to put words in anyones mouth.

Here's a quote from Robert (it may be the one I may have incorrectly attributed to D-Nice and can't find):

No panels larger than 60" for 9G. Likely 70" 10G for early fall 2010. -Robert

based on the brochure's information i take it that the color temperature can not be changed in the 5020 or the 6020 - is this correct?Incorrect.

Remember that pioneer simply took away some specific presets (which is what these settings essentially were) and incorporated them into a larger tree of presets. If the non-elites had RGB sliders and they took those away, that would be far worse. But you always needed to go elite to get those anyway



Thats a nice spin but a quick look at the settings and comparing them to D-Nice's prefered settings finds little in common.

Almost everyone suggests that the noise settings be turned off - but the unchangeable default will be ON for all of them.

If you thought DRE artificially changed the picture, your only choice for DRE off would be the Movie mode or Game mode.

But the Movie mode has Enhancher set to 1 which D-Nice said should always be set to 2.

So all-in-all you are left with some compromise on what have been the best settings in the past.

And the chance to improve the situation with calibration may be more limited.

I'm not sure how that is an improvement for the consumer.

I'm not saying its a good thing overall, its just not that big of a deal. I look at it as elite is the full-featured line which most enthusiats will want. The non-elites are a chance for people who don't care about every adjustment to save a bit off the purchase price. Which is the majority of people out there. Pioneer is catering to both. If they offered all adjustments in the non-elites, there would be no appreciable difference between the two. Of course what happens then is the lower priced model (5020/6020) gets cut out and everybody would be paying for the elites, which would be the standard.

What I am saying is there NEEDS to be a differentiation between models, and picture settings is by far the best thing not to have, better than diluting the picture quality with lighter blacks and poor processing. (ie. only the elites getting the 'kuro' treatment). Those advanced picture settings only benefit people who are actually knowledgeable about them, and those people should strongly consider getting the elite.

Most 5020/6020 owners will set the picture to optimum and LOVE it, as they should. All 9Gs are going to look phenominal, and the vast choice of 9G models with differing levels of settings but the same basic panel is overall a good thing.

Elite with D-Nice settings for sure!

However, the 6020 is surely a good TV on its own. If you're unsure of
getting an elite for the sake of us saying it's great, then just stick to the
6020. If you're not going to use the features, don't bother. My pro-150FD
PQ for the most part, is similar to a calibrated 6020 when I don't use the
ISF reference settings. If you don't know, the ISF settings are not for
everyone, so you best be careful what you do to a non-elite when it comes
to professional calibration. Of course, this is all in my opinion.

Where can one find D-Nice setting for Elite?

Where can one find D-Nice setting for Elite?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858851

No comment

I interpret this as good news!!! If D-Nice didn't know, he'd say so. If he knew and couldn't say, well...

Disclosure: I am a self-professed optimist and prone to seeing the world through rose-colored glasses.

Add: This was about a larger screen size in the 10th generation.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858851

Thanks!

I think people are overreacting to the settings issue. Also I think it was probably pretty smart of pioneer. Unlike some previous generations, it appears this year the 5020 and 6020 will be almost the exact same panel as the elites. The elites however have many more picture adjustments. So, both sets will dazzle with the same PQ out of the box. However, pioneer is now clearly targeting two types of buyers - the majority, which never delve past the standard contrast, tint, brightness etc. (which are still the most important tweaks by FAR), and the elite buyers, which will pay an extra 20 percent for every tweak in the book.

Are you saying that the Non-Elites will have the same black level and color accuracy that the Elites will? Based on the brochure, the Elites will still have the improved filter on the glass, "Color Space 2" vs "Color Space 1" on the Non-Elites and they will have "Pure" mode. To me it sounds like the Elites will still have all the advantages that matter (to picture quality) and the Non-Elites get gimped..........

I'm very disappointed with Pioneer for taking these features out of the Non-Elites. NR is a known killer of PQ, and to not be able to turn it off, is, in my opinion, blasphemy! Maybe I'm overreacting, and it's not THAT big a deal, but these are $4000+ TVs we're talking about here, not Vizios, they shouldn't be taking away features and controls, they should be adding them!

If they offered all adjustments in the non-elites, there would be no appreciable difference between the two. .

Those advanced picture settings only benefit people who are actually knowledgeable about them, and those people should strongly consider getting the elite.

Most 5020/6020 owners will set the picture to optimum and LOVE it, as they should.

Well if you're not going to offer all the adjustments, how about at least getting the settings close to optimum. Making most of the deafults with DRE at mid or high and turning on all noise reduction would hardly be reference.

Has anyone else seen the pictures from the Pioneer Roadshow? The actors on the TV looks like Brother Love from the WWF. Are all skin tones on Pioneer pushed that red/magenta? I would say maybe it is just the photo from the camera, but when you look at the other people in the pictures who are attending the show they do not appear as magenta. Any reason for the red/magenta skin tone push? Will a 5020 be harder to adjust the colors with the lack of adjustments now?

Per D-nice's table, yes I think some of the combinations could have been better, and will detract slightly from PQ, but they are not terrible.

All the point I am trying to make is that for 4000 bucks you get everything a kuro has to offer, minus some picture controls. For 5000 bucks you get everything. Not a bad situation and it could be much, much worse. Sony for example puts far worse panels in their non-xbr sets. So does Panasonic (pz77 vs pz700 last year).

I am not understanding why people are expecting perfection in the non-elites. Yes they are expensive, but the PQ is worth that price, and the superior blacks and processing is what is costing 4000 dollars. Superior blacks, processing and picture controls cost 5000 dollars. Simple. Overall I think they nailed the 9G lineup.

Going from a minimum luminance level of 0.004fL to 0.001fL (or better) equated to a 400% increase in on/off contrast. Marketing says 400% equals 5x. So that is where the slogan comes from.

Nitpicking from a math geek, but 0.004 compared to 0.001 is a 300% increase, like 0.002 to 0.001 is a 100% increase. 0.004 = 4 x 0.001, hence it should be 4x, not 5x, unless they are comparing to the (or better). But hey, marketing guys can figure out a way to turn a 50% increase into 5X if they try hard enough.

Also, I do agree with HDpeet that the always on NR engagement may be an issue. We will have to see how that pans out. If its done well, it should be okay, but if its overly engaged in every preset there may be some problems with it. Personally I am one of those people that never seems to notice a difference with NR on or off, but admittedly I do not sit very close to the screen.

"elite buyers, ... will pay an extra 20 percent for every tweak in the book"

If the premium was only 20%, I would gladly pay it ... the reality is, the discount to MSRP on the 20's is much greater than that on the Elites ... so, the true premium is over 30%

I am having a very hard time believing that the Elite will give me 30% better PQ (plus the cost of "tweaking") ... that price difference works out to over 50 Blu-ray discs, that will actually allow me to enjoy my 1080p resolution (verse only being able to afford to watch Broadcast TV, with perfect Elite PQ :p)

I am most likely going to pre-order the 6020, with the new Pioneer Blu-ray player (that Robert raved about) ... and possibly the new Pioneer 7.1 Receiver (which he also raved about)

Does anyone think it's better to go with a 111FD for Elite 'features/difference' than a 6020 for the size?

Prior to pre-ordering a 6020, I also went thru the exercise of considering the 50" 9G Elite 111 versus the 60" 9G Non-Elite 6020. Personally, I thought this was akin to comparing apples and oranges. The difference in size is significant. Ultimately, for me at least, I prefer the wider field of viewing versus what I anticipate to be a nominal increase in color fidelity. But I can appreciate those who might contend the opposite.

What did I do incorrectly to my last post? The quote appears wrong.

If the premium was only 20%, I would gladly pay it ... the reality is the discount to MSRP on the 20's is much greater than that on the Elites ... so, the true premium is over 30%

I am having a very hard time believing that the Elite will give me 30% better PQ (plus the cost of "tweaking") ... and that price difference works out to over 50 Blu-ray disc that will actually allow me to enjoy my 1080p resolution (verse only being able to afford to watch Broadcast TV, with perfect Elite PQ :p)

I am most likely going to pre-order the 6020, with the new Pioneer Blu-ray player (that Robert raved about) ... and possibly the new Pioneer 7.1 Receiver

True, if you put money and PQ improvements on a 1:1 footing, then a 5020/6020 or possibly an 8G is your best bet. This is also one of the arguments people have when comparing pio to panasonic when they say the pioneers are not worth it. But many people would pay $2000 for even a 5 percent PQ increase, as they put PQ on a very high pedestal and they do have the money to spend. Personally I am with you and will probably get a 5020 and spend the rest on other gear. Diminishing returns do come in to play on high-end products all the time, but the high-end serves its purpose for those that have the income and also feel the upgrade is worth it. Sometimes its just for the sake of not having to upgrade again the next year.

PQ improvements are hard to quantify, and depends solely on the purchaser, their wallet, and their eyes.

I am most likely going to pre-order the 6020, with the new Pioneer Blu-ray player (that Robert raved about) ... and possibly the new Pioneer 7.1 Receiver (which he also raved about)

+1

I think I can get the 6020, BluRay player and Receiver for not much more than the Elite by itself.

What did I do incorrectly to my last post? The quote appears wrong.

after the word "size?" in my quote you need to add the html/forum tag [/quote]

I cannot believe Pioneer is taking these important user adjustments out of the 4,000 Dollar Kuro 5020 and 6,000 dollar 6020 units.

Street prices are significantly less than MSRP. Call the forum sponsors for prices.

Wow! This should swing many people over to the Elites. I mean not being able to do something as simple as turn off DRE when you want to...dumb dumb dumb. :rolleyes:

Interesting that you can't even turn off the Black Level. I hope one can turn off the black level or adjust all the features in anyway on the Elites.

Are you saying that the Non-Elites will have the same black level and color accuracy that the Elites will? Based on the brochure, the Elites will still have the improved filter on the glass, "Color Space 2" vs "Color Space 1" on the Non-Elites and they will have "Pure" mode. To me it sounds like the Elites will still have all the advantages that matter (to picture quality) and the Non-Elites get gimped..........

I'm very disappointed with Pioneer for taking these features out of the Non-Elites. NR is a known killer of PQ, and to not be able to turn it off, is, in my opinion, blasphemy! Maybe I'm overreacting, and it's not THAT big a deal, but these are $4000+ TVs we're talking about here, not Vizios, they shouldn't be taking away features and controls, they should be adding them!

Any 8G users care to comment on just how bad the NR really is? What damage does it do? I honestly can't say I've ever seen a display where it didn't completely wreck the image quality. It is the single worst feature on any display IMO.

This is interesting...if you want to get a Pio 5010 right now you're paying significantly MORE than you will in a few weeks for the Pio 5020. Even with supplies of the 8G panel drying up, the price has still not fallen below the expected lower cost of the 5020.

This is based on checking prices from both authorized retailers and forum sponsors. I find it very surprising!

Wow! This should swing many people over to the Elites. I mean not being able to do something as simple as turn off DRE when you want to...dumb dumb dumb. :rolleyes:

http://www.performanceprobe.com/forum/images/smilies/goodpost.gifThey better make more Elites than they did last year...........

D-NICE;
I know you posted reference settings for the 110fd, but, you have adjusted color settings... I don't know if I should do this as every panel is different and one varies from the next. So, I am asking for your help. Do you have some basic settings I can use WITHOUT adjusting any of the individual colors. I would really appreciate it. Please give me some basic reference settings I an use without adjusting any of the colors. Thanks D :)


p.s. Will I get the advantages of the new BD player with my 110fd or is the new player designed specifically to enhance the 9G only?

If a TV is worth a certain price than it's worth a certain price. It doesn't matter how many years you spread the price out for, it still costs the same.

I am not saying the elite is not worth it, I seem to be headed in the elite route too. But I don't beleive spreading the price over a certain amount an year makes a difference at all. Unless you are saying that you would keep the elite for 10 years and the non elite for only 6 or 7 years.

Maybe this is my method of justifying my purchases for big ticket items, but it works for me!:D

Walmart shoppers, listen up! When I first came on this Forum, Pioneer was selling their 50" Elites for $15,000 a pop, and that was with 2002 plasma tech and all the ugly warts that went along including poor blacks, bad motion blurs, suceptible to burn-in/IR and a few other bad PQ buggaboos. Still, many people bought them. Now in 2008 (and on the backs of previous early adopters), there's all this bitch'in, moaning & whining about paying 2/3's less for an even larger display, a 60" Elite (44% larger screen than a 50" PDP), that will be the best of the best, and have a pristine PQ that's unmatched by anyone else on the worldwide market. Moral of the story... you just can't buy Lexus for the price of a Toyota.

Maybe this is my method of justifying my purchases for big ticket items, but it works for me!:D

Walmart shoppers, listen up! When I first came on this Forum, Pioneer was selling their 50" Elites for $15,000 a pop, and that was with 2002 plasma tech and all the ugly warts that went along including poor blacks, bad motion blurs, suceptible to burn-in/IR and a few other bad PQ buggaboos. Still, many people bought them. Now in 2008 (and on the backs of previous early adopters), there's all this bitch'in, moaning & whining about paying 2/3's less for an even larger display, a 60" Elite (44% larger screen than a 50" PDP), that will be the best of the best, and have a pristine PQ that's unmatched by anyone else on the worldwide market. Moral of the story... you just can't buy Lexus for the price of a Toyota.
Well said. That is why companies like Fujitsu are gone. People want an IS350 for a Corolla price.

Becareful what you wish for as these market forces are starting to get to Pioneer. Hopefully they will not be the next victim.

Dnice/Robert/russwong

Will the motion resolution on the 9th gen be higher than 8th gen?

Will the 10th gen have higher motion resolution number?

Why isn't motion resolution the same as static resolution? What's stopping this and can it be overcome?

D-NICE;
I know you posted reference settings for the 110fd, but, you have adjusted color settings... I don't know if I should do this as every panel is different and one varies from the next. So, I am asking for your help. Do you have some basic settings I can use WITHOUT adjusting any of the individual colors. I would really appreciate it. Please give me some basic reference settings I an use without adjusting any of the colors. Thanks D :)


p.s. Will I get the advantages of the new BD player with my 110fd or is the new player designed specifically to enhance the 9G only?

You can give the color settings a try and revert back if you don't like them. You won't break the panel. :)

I'd wager most people were considering the '20's primarily for their price. For people into it enough to know, it's probably going to swing them to temporary mid-range models at half the price rather than Elites and Signatures--that is if the omission really bothers them. The Big Box consumer isn't going to know or care one way or the other, but I have to question just how many people there are that walz into Best Buys to buy $4000 and $5500 displays on a whim.

Just how destructive were these features on the 8G's? Noise reduction absolutely destroys LCD's, I would sooner buy the lowest end Vizio than put up with permanent Noise Reduction on an XBR.


You can't get anything even close to comparable for half the price of the 20's.

Dnice/Robert/russwong

Will the motion resolution on the 9th gen be higher than 8th gen?

The 8th generation Pioneers already had great motion resolution (900 lines)

Will the 10th gen have higher motion resolution number?

Who knows..........

Why isn't motion resolution the same as static resolution? What's stopping this and can it be overcome?


Some TVs (LCD, LCD AND LCD) blur when there is motion on the screen because the pixels cannot respond fast enough. A good 1080p LCD can measure about 600 lines of resolution using motion resolution tests. Plasmas don't have this problem.

This is interesting...if you want to get a Pio 5010 right now you're paying significantly MORE than you will in a few weeks for the Pio 5020. Even with supplies of the 8G panel drying up, the price has still not fallen below the expected lower cost of the 5020.

This is based on checking prices from both authorized retailers and forum sponsors. I find it very surprising!

I think it will be about the exact same for a 5020 compared to what 5010 are now.(if you can find them)
Unless I am mistaken.

http://www.performanceprobe.com/forum/images/smilies/goodpost.gifThey better make more Elites than they did last year...........

Or not have a truck full of 150's get lost lol That was one of the rumors ;)

Any 8G users care to comment on just how bad the NR really is? What damage does it do? I honestly can't say I've ever seen a display where it didn't completely wreck the image quality. It is the single worst feature on any display IMO.

Caveat - I'm no expert in these settings...

Not sure what setting in particular you are referring to - but looking at the table of settings D-Nice posted for the new presets and using DRE as my example on my 110FD in Pure mode, I prefer it to be off. I have not done a lot of testing, but for me even setting it at low gives my picture a slightly harsher more contrasty look than with it set to Off. When Off my pic has a smoother/softer look.

Other 8G users have commented that they like to set DRE at low for some programming such as sports.

Or not have a truck full of 150's get lost lol That was one of the rumors ;)

Seriously!?

OUCH!

Seriously!? OUCH!

ya. probably 'lost' like on the Sopranos 'lost'.

ya. probably 'lost' like on the Sopranos 'lost'.

:D Yeah, I can picture it now, Robert hijacking a load of 150s off the Jersey Turnpike.

Nitpicking from a math geek, but 0.004 compared to 0.001 is a 300% increase, like 0.002 to 0.001 is a 100% increase. 0.004 = 4 x 0.001, hence it should be 4x, not 5x, unless they are comparing to the (or better). But hey, marketing guys can figure out a way to turn a 50% increase into 5X if they try hard enough.The key words he posted were "or less" If I'm not mistaken, D-Nice (or someone) had them at .0008 FL, which is exactly 5 times deeper than.004 FL. Just a little clarification... And they were also said to be 80% deeper than the 8Gs. .004*.20=.0008 for those who are bad at math.

The key words he posted were "or less" If I'm not mistaken, D-Nice (or someone) had them at .0008 FL, which is exactly 5 times deeper than.004 FL. Just a little clarification... And they were also said to be 80% deeper than the 8Gs. .004*.20=.0008 for those who are bad at math.

haha everybody beat up the nerd with his calculator!! ;)

Seriously, with all the talk about the lack of user adjustment and such, I gotta
ask you guys something.

HONESTLY.... (regarding the non-elite)

Do you think the 8G will have better PQ than the 9G considering the 8G has
more user adjustment features? HONESTLY, do you think so? Forget the
blacks for a sec... give your opinion.

I honestly can't help but think Pioneer is not stupid enough to take away
adjustment features (even from the Service Menu) without making for sure
that the settings they are forcing on us are optimal. I really think folks are
going to be more than pleasantly surprised with the non-elites.

There are a lot of folks interested in the non-elites thanks to the price,
and I don't think we're helping them by making assumptions before the TV
is out. I understand they should be aware that things are not quite the
same, but I think we're causing too much panic.

Well, who's to say what's optimal? D-Nice said the NR features are going to be hardwired into the panel. On every TV I've ever owned, I've always turned off all those features like DRE, Noise Reduction, "Digital Reality Creation" and so on.

I just want the TV to be as true to the source as it possibly can. Do we really need 3 DNR, Field NR, Block NR and Mosquito NR jacked up for our high quality Blu-ray transfers?

Maybe it won't be so bad. I bet OVERALL the Non-Elites WILL be better than last years models. I just think that taking away the option to turn off these things is a step in the wrong direction.

Seriously, with all the talk about the lack of user adjustment and such, I gotta
ask you guys something.

HONESTLY.... (regarding the non-elite)

Do you think the 8G will have better PQ than the 9G considering the 8G has
more user adjustment features? HONESTLY, do you think so? Forget the
blacks for a sec... give your opinion.

I honestly can't help but think Pioneer is not stupid enough to take away
adjustment features (even from the Service Menu) without making for sure
that the settings they are forcing on us are optimal. I really think folks are
going to be more than pleasantly surprised with the non-elites.

There are a lot of folks interested in the non-elites thanks to the price,
and I don't think we're helping them by making assumptions before the TV
is out. I understand they should be aware that things are not quite the
same, but I think we're causing too much panic.

At first blush, I was concerned regarding this, however, lets wait for the sets to be reviewed inside and outside this forum. I have not changed the settings on my current pioneer for 4 years.

I suspect we will have a review inside 3 weeks.

The ethernet addition to the non-elites is a huge bonus.

Paul

Going from a minimum luminance level of 0.004fL to 0.001fL (or better) equated to a 400% increase in on/off contrast. Marketing says 400% equals 5x. So that is where the slogan comes from.

Interesting use of numbers. Ok, I'm not a math expert!

What does going from 0.001fL to 0 amount to?

100%?

Would that make the G10s 2x more black than the G9s?

2X is a lot, however I'm betting that the difference will be even less than going from G8 to G9.

Anyway, I know I'm going to be happy with my G9 Elite.

The lack of user controls news on the 20 series has left some doubt about my pre-order in my head so I have a few questions. I'm new to plasma/lcd's and fine tuning displays so be kind...

1. Looked at the cut sheets and don't see any references to the typical Contrast, Brightness, Color, Tint, and Sharpness settings. I'm assuming they'll still be there...is this correct?

2. Also on the cut sheets it lists 4 different NR's. Are all 4 NR's active on all the picture modes? Or does it vary depending on the mode?

3. Will there be a manual temperature control (High/Mid/Low or something similar)?

Interesting use of numbers. Ok, I'm not a math expert!

What does going from 0.001fL to 0 amount to?

100%?

Would that make the G10s 2x more black than the G9s?

2X is a lot, however I'm betting that the difference will be even less than going from G8 to G9.

Anyway, I know I'm going to be happy with my G9 Elite.Uh did you ever learn basic math... It is an infinite increase (technically). I highly doubt that you will be able to notice much of a difference. Add that to the fact that any bit of ambient light will make the blacks appear less perfect. Either way the ECC will be unreal.

Well, who's to say what's optimal? D-Nice said the NR features are going to be hardwired into the panel. On every TV I've ever owned, I've always turned off all those features like DRE, Noise Reduction, "Digital Reality Creation" and so on.

I just want the TV to be as true to the source as it possibly can. Do we really need 3 DNR, Field NR, Block NR and Mosquito NR jacked up for our high quality Blu-ray transfers?



BRAVO! Well said. Exactly many of myself and associates sentiments!

I noticed that, with Movie mode, Enhancer is set to 1. Yet, D-Nice suggests Enhancer should always be at 2. This seems problematic. Perhaps the Enhancer for the 9Gs will be set up differently than the 8Gs?

Set up differently? I would think that you would be able to set the Enhancer at any setting you want in the Elites no matter what mode your in???

If not, maybe in the service menue?

Uh did you ever learn basic math... It is an infinite increase (technically). I highly doubt that you will be able to notice much of a difference. Add that to the fact that any bit of ambient light will make the blacks appear less perfect. Either way the ECC will be unreal.

I take it you've never seen a CRT front projector which is able to nearly produce no light, like a G90? I've only seen a 7" CRT FP and that wasn't anything close to what a G90 can do, ~700,000:1. A 7" CRT FP is still better, black level wise, than the 9Gs will be. The 9Gs can only do ~40,000:1. The difference between video level 16 ( no light, 0 foot lamberts) and video level 17, the very next signal level, is nearly 710,000:1! (using a 2.5 gamma)

Your eyes are sensitive enough to see a difference between 710,000:1, just imagine the difference between it and 40,000:1. That's nearly an 18 times difference.

The 8th generation Pioneers already had great motion resolution (900 lines)



Clearly there is room for improvement though.


Some TVs (LCD, LCD AND LCD) blur when there is motion on the screen because the pixels cannot respond fast enough. A good 1080p LCD can measure about 600 lines of resolution using motion resolution tests. Plasmas don't have this problem.

This isn't about what TV can and can't do but about motion resolution with the Pioneer 9th gen and beyond.

Here is a good pic comparison and you can see there is certainly room for improvement.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11255691&postcount=13857

http://i26.tinypic.com/14y65n9.jpg

Here is a good pic comparison and you can see there is certainly room for improvement.

I'd consider that a 'bad' pic comparison as there are no sources for what TV's/models were used from which to judge. And I highly doubt they used a Pioneer. It makes about as much sense as showing a pic with black crush, labeling it simply as 'plasma' and saying 'see? this is the black levels on plasmas, don't they suck?'. I fail to see how that comparison has any bearing on 9G motion resolution. But that's just me.

I interpret this as good news!!! If D-Nice didn't know, he'd say so. If he knew and couldn't say, well...

Disclosure: I am a self-professed optimist and prone to seeing the world through rose-colored glasses.

Add: This was about a larger screen size in the 10th generation.


Cool.
I am happily awaiting my 150 inch Kuro w/zero idol luminance and a super thin panel!!:D:D:D:D:D

Well I preorded through a forum sponsor today for my 6020.

Actually spoke to the guy that posts here on the forum!

Quick easy and painless.

Now the WAIT begins. I am going to stop watching Blu-rays on my 47 in Westinghouse LCD until the Pio comes in.

60 in from 8 feet away is gonna be unreal while gaming and watching movies.

Cory

HDCan, the picture is a good point of reference. It shows that there is still room for improvement. Sure, it can be argued that some plasma's could be better than the picture leads on, but it shows that compared to a CRT the technology can be improved.

What it does is reaffirms my urge to want to get a plasma (more specifically a gen9 Elite :)) to replace my XBR5!! :)

Since I dont have much knowledge of HD flat panels, had some time to kill so just cleaned up the non-elite SM table for you guys. D-Nice had updated it in post 2198 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13914976#post13914976), so here it is again for those that didnt see it:


A/V Mode DRE Black Level ACL Enhancer Gamma CTI

Dynamic High On On 2 2 On
Performance Mid On On 2 2 On
Movie Off On Off 2 1 On
Sports Mid On On 2 2 On
Game Off Off Off 2 2 On
Standard Mid On On 2 2 On



Me: have a 36" panasonic crt tv with a great picture. back plastic grill broken during a move and duct tape covering the hole. :P had my eye on a 46" sharp for 4 years then discovered the kuro about a year ago. time was never right to spend this kinda money on a tv, especially now with a baby due november. but i may just have to get a 5020 or 111 this fall. can't take it anymore. lol

I have been patiently readig everything I can on it. The technical stuff is over my head, for the moment, so am anxiously looking forward to the reviews and opinions once the 9g is actually in hand.

I interpret this as good news!!! If D-Nice didn't know, he'd say so. If he knew and couldn't say, well...

Disclosure: I am a self-professed optimist and prone to seeing the world through rose-colored glasses.

Add: This was about a larger screen size in the 10th generation.

Since Panasonic will be "assisting" with the glass it seems natural that there is at least a 65" Kuro next year. ECC and a bigger screen seems like a sure way to get more people on board.

While the 9G non-elites are tremendously handicapped compared to the 9G elites in regards to their available pictures settings, another PQ factor that does NOT differentiate the non-elite vs. elite in the 9G's is the idle luminance. Both the non-elite and elite 9G's have 0.001 ftL. The 8G's elite line showed differentiation from it's little brother (non-elites) by having idle luminance levels of 0.008 ftL and 0.004 ftL, respectively. (If these numbers are wrong, please correct me...I'm recalling what I read from the 8G forums several months ago)

So, since the idle luminance levels' playing field has been "leveled", something else must be used to differentiate the non-elites from elites.

Well, one difference I see re the 9G settings and the ideal 8G is gamma - my 4280 is ISF'd to Gamma 3. Of course, the gamma values on the 9Gs may differ.

Seriously, with all the talk about the lack of user adjustment and such, I gotta
ask you guys something.

HONESTLY.... (regarding the non-elite)

Do you think the 8G will have better PQ than the 9G considering the 8G has
more user adjustment features? HONESTLY, do you think so? Forget the
blacks for a sec... give your opinion.

I honestly can't help but think Pioneer is not stupid enough to take away
adjustment features (even from the Service Menu) without making for sure
that the settings they are forcing on us are optimal. I really think folks are
going to be more than pleasantly surprised with the non-elites.

There are a lot of folks interested in the non-elites thanks to the price,
and I don't think we're helping them by making assumptions before the TV
is out. I understand they should be aware that things are not quite the
same, but I think we're causing too much panic.

x2. I have a 5020 pre-ordered and though I am disappointed Pioneer deemed it necessary to remove settings for the benefit of the unsophisticated, I am still confident that the 5020 picture will be nothing less than stellar. No doubt better than my current standard def CRT. :cool:

I'd consider that a 'bad' pic comparison as there are no sources for what TV's/models were used from which to judge. And I highly doubt they used a Pioneer. It makes about as much sense as showing a pic with black crush, labeling it simply as 'plasma' and saying 'see? this is the black levels on plasmas, don't they suck?'. I fail to see how that comparison has any bearing on 9G motion resolution. But that's just me.

Read the thread and look at the values on it. You can see that while Plasma's have the best resolution of the group (that pic is to illustrate the diff) there is still obvious room for improment. Out of 1080 lines if the Pioneer can show 900, clearly there is room for improvment right?! For a heavy gamer like myself, it's very important just as much as the black levels and color accuracy.

Since Panasonic will be "assisting" with the glass it seems natural that there is at least a 65" Kuro next year. ECC and a bigger screen seems like a sure way to get more people on board.

58/65/80 given prior speculation for 09 PIO

A/V Mode DRE Black Level ACL Enhancer Gamma CTI

Dynamic High On On 2 2 On
Performance Mid On On 2 2 On
Movie Off On Off 2 1 On
Sports Mid On On 2 2 On
Game Off Off Off 2 2 On
Standard Mid On On 2 2 On





What is the point of Performance, Sports, and Standard if they have the same settings? So much for elimaniting customer confusion. :confused:

Well, who's to say what's optimal? D-Nice said the NR features are going to be hardwired into the panel. On every TV I've ever owned, I've always turned off all those features like DRE, Noise Reduction, "Digital Reality Creation" and so on.

I just want the TV to be as true to the source as it possibly can. Do we really need 3 DNR, Field NR, Block NR and Mosquito NR jacked up for our high quality Blu-ray transfers?

Maybe it won't be so bad. I bet OVERALL the Non-Elites WILL be better than last years models. I just think that taking away the option to turn off these things is a step in the wrong direction.

Hey, according to ercc, Pioneer nailed the 9Gs. Not sure how you can say that by forcing noise reduction on all your non-Elite sets. Do you think Pioneer will be sending those to Sound & Vision for evaluation. Every evalution I've ever seen has turned all those features off.

Bottom line - You may be giving more people a reason to buy an Elite, but you're giving fewer people a reason to buy a Pioneer.

I have to say that those User Menu changes to the 20 series are quite dissapointing.

Here I was hoping for an increase in shadow detail and if users are forced to use Gamma 2 rather than having the choice to use Gamma 3 then unless the 9Gs have really improved in this area then the 9Gs will be a step down in shadow details. Also, if you don't want to use DRE then you are forced to use Game mode and Movie mode and for me the Game mode is DIM. Pioneer could have allowed these settings in the Custom mode. IMO it seems that they are trying to force videophiles to buy in the elite line.

This is a very poor choice on Pioneer's behalf and IMO the value of the 20 series just went down. It's pretty bad when lower end manufactures will have more user menu options over an elite company like Pioneer and are much cheaper as well.

Its hard to tell for sure on how big this is until we get some units out there. I do agree this might push more people towards Elites.

I was ready to pre-order a 6020 after contacting some of the forum sponsors but I think I will wait for the units to ship and see how the missing settings affect PQ. I've waited this long so what’s a few more months. I would rather wait then make a bad decision at this point and have buyer’s remorse. The problem is that I just can't swing the extra cash for the 151fg. Times are tough and the 6020 is pushing it. I think other people will do the same thing and may affect pre-order sales. Pioneer lost my pre-order.

Going to lose mine as well.

I was ready to pre-order a 6020 after contacting some of the forum sponsors but I think I will wait for the units to ship and see how the missing settings affect PQ. I've waited this long so what’s a few more months. I would rather wait then make a bad decision at this point and have buyer’s remorse. The problem is that I just can't swing the extra cash for the 151fg. Times are tough and the 6020 is pushing it. I think other people will do the same thing and may affect pre-order sales. Pioneer lost my pre-order.

When you have 90-days to think about it that ensures your confidence... ;)

Chris

I take it you've never seen a CRT front projector which is able to nearly produce no light, like a G90? I've only seen a 7" CRT FP and that wasn't anything close to what a G90 can do, ~700,000:1. A 7" CRT FP is still better, black level wise, than the 9Gs will be. The 9Gs can only do ~40,000:1. The difference between video level 16 ( no light, 0 foot lamberts) and video level 17, the very next signal level, is nearly 710,000:1! (using a 2.5 gamma)

Your eyes are sensitive enough to see a difference between 710,000:1, just imagine the difference between it and 40,000:1. That's nearly an 18 times difference.

reio or anyone,

How does the 9Gs compair black level wise to a regular consumer CRT...or even a rear projection CRT? Or even what many people used to have such as a low or mid price "regular" 19 inch CRT?

I'm just trying to find out in general if the 9Gs compair to what many if not most people have been used to when it comes to black levels from CRTs.

I am going to stop watching Blu-rays on my 47 in Westinghouse LCD until the Pio comes in.

Why would you do that?

reio or anyone,

How does the 9Gs compair black level wise to a regular consumer CRT...or even a rear projection CRT? Or even what many people used to have such as a low or mid price "regular" 19 inch CRT?

I'm just trying to find out in general if the 9Gs compair to what many if not most people have been used to when it comes to black levels from CRTs.

A decent CRT direct view will have over 20,000:1 but under 30,000:1. A calibrated 8G maxed out at under 9,000:1? ( the 20,000:1 was the over 50 foot lamberts uncalibrated?) That's real contrast taking into account environment and other factors. The reason a G90 can get ~700,000:1 is because you can put one of them in a totally black batcave with no reflections and no light at all in the room. Any direct view can't get dim enough to allow that. You shouldn't have more than I think it's 20 foot lamberts with a batcave. In my environment with the 7" CRT FP, I was getting ~7 foot lamberts. In a pitch black room, I'd estimate I was getting over 30,000:1.

I doubt anyone will get even 30,000:1 in their rooms. A plasma has to have some light or your eyes will get fatigued. Next year's 10Gs if it's true they have 0 luminance with a 16 level signal ( 0 IRE), then you could set ISF_Night for 12 to 20 foot lamberts or lower and be in a batcave, with ISF_DAY allow some light and do the regular 35 foot lamberts. Oh that will be so nice! But the 9G should be able to beat every single other direct panel device, including CRT. But it's still not going to beat the very best display device, a CRT front projector.

If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay for the 6020? Not that I'm in the market for one (I was for the 5020, but not anymore), but it seems that the Kuros have always bees significantly more expensive than the Panasonics, I don't think from a 58PZ800U to a 6020 would be a "marginal increase." Panasonics have always sold a lot lower than their retail price, Pioneer not so much.

This forum permits discussion of MSRP only. However, if you call the forum sponsors, you'll likely be pleasantly surprised to discover the difference between the 6020's MSRP and its street price. When I was considering the 2007 Panasonic TH-58PZ750U around Xmas 2007, the EPP (Employee Purchase Plan) price was only $600 less than the price I pre-ordered the 6020 for. (By the way, I am not an employee of Panasonic. My employer is a large national company where its employees are eligible for EPP). "Marginal Increase" is relative to one's own financial situation. Personally, I considered the $600 difference as nominal. Especially, when you consider that I am stepping-up in quality and getting a next calendar year model.

(By the way, since the TH-58PZ800U will not be released until Fall 2008, I couldn't perform a "marginal increase" analysis on it versus the 6020. Aside from that, I had already decided to go with Pioneer over Panasonic.)

A decent CRT direct view will have over 20,000:1 but under 30,000:1. A calibrated 8G maxed out at under 9,000:1?

I doubt anyone will get even 30,000:1 in their rooms.

the 9G should be able to beat every single other direct panel device, including CRT.

Very good answer and very intersting to know.

Makes me wonder if the G9s can get close to the 30,000:1 in a dark/black room? I guess we won't know till they come out.

If the 9Gs can beat "every single other...CRT" then I think the 9G will be about all I've been looking for in a flat panel.

Going to lose mine as well.

Probably mine too. I think I have to wait for the reviews of the 5020 and 111 now.

I'm hoping that even without these settings, the 6020 will still be better then anything else non-elite out there and also better then the 6010. I decided I'm going to roll the dice and not cancel my pre-order. It's more then a little frustrating though that after months of reading these forums, finally making a concrete decision, saving up and even selling some things on Ebay, then patiently waiting for the 9G to be released that there's doubt in my mind again.

I don't doubt my decision to pre-order the 6020. It should be better than the 6010. Here is an analogy: A brand new model cycle Honda Accord or Lexus LS will invariably be better than the prior model run. Why? Because those manufacturers have set a gold standard and track record that you can confidently and successfully bet on. Similarly, Pioneer has established a track record of marked increases in quality level from generation to the next generation.

(Having said that, I can appreciate your angst. Recall that I was contemplating a TH-58PZ800U prior to pre-ordering a 6020.)

What is the point of Performance, Sports, and Standard if they have the same settings? So much for elimaniting customer confusion. :confused:

Because outside of the settings mentioned, there are likely other differences between these 3 modes. (eg: default brightness/contrast levels)

This is interesting...if you want to get a Pio 5010 right now you're paying significantly MORE than you will in a few weeks for the Pio 5020. Even with supplies of the 8G panel drying up, the price has still not fallen below the expected lower cost of the 5020.

This is based on checking prices from both authorized retailers and forum sponsors. I find it very surprising!

I concur. I discovered what I thought was a great price on a 5010. But after obtaining the lowest price on a pre-order 5020, the difference was only fifty dollars! But that is right now. Once the 5020 becomes readily available, I suspect those holding inventory of 5010s will be compelled to lower the price significantly.

(But then again, I don't really care anymore since I pre-ordered a 6020.)

I don't doubt my decision to pre-order the 6020. It should be better than the 6010. Here is an analogy: A brand new model cycle Honda Accord or Lexus LS will invariably be better than the prior model run. Why? Because those manufacturers have set a gold standard and track record that you can confidently and successfully bet on. Similarly, Pioneer has established a track record of marked increases in quality level from generation to the next generation.

(Having said that, I can appreciate your angst. Recall that I was contemplating a TH-58PZ800U prior to pre-ordering a 6020.)

This has always been true, but there is now emerging evidence that tv makers are trying to cut down the costs of manufacturing their tvs because the profit margins are so low...This year, Sony's W series introduced 120 hz (which I hate) but replaced the 10bit display panel with an 8 bit...Just as Pioneer is known for making the best plasmas, Sony is pretty much the best-reviewed LCD maker...At the end of last year, they were even the top seller. But they still lost money, because the profit margins are so bad...This is the same reason Pioneer is going to begin outsourcing the panels next year...And so, the point is this: There is no flat panel tv maker who would not trade their business for Vizios..Sure, the tvs are mediocre, but they sell really well, and because they are so cheap to assemble, they can sell low and still make large profit margins...

so the point is, there may actually be a drop in quality on the horizon towards the top of the market...Although maybe not.

Hi Pioneer Distributors on this forum, I need two buy two Pro 151FD units, so if you can PM me your best price I would appreciate it.

Thank you!

Peace

Hey phastlane. I see you're pretty new and may not know this yet. Asking for PMs with prices is considered bad forum etiquette. It clogs up the thread and the mods have asked us not to do it. There are forum sponsors that can be found at the top and bottom of the page by clicking on their links. If you send them a PM or give them a call, they'll be happy to give you a price.

Can any of the 8G Elite owners share their experience with their set's ethernet connectivity? This seems relevant as all the 9Gs have this feature.

D-nice did you get a chance to see my long post before this one? can you posiliby respond to it? thanks its page 75 post number 2258

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13917165&postcount=2258



i too would like to know this....



Seriously, with all the talk about the lack of user adjustment and such, I gotta
ask you guys something.

HONESTLY.... (regarding the non-elite)

Do you think the 8G will have better PQ than the 9G considering the 8G has
more user adjustment features? HONESTLY, do you think so? Forget the
blacks for a sec... give your opinion.




cory wow 60 on a 8ft distince???? im going from 42" panny to 50" pioneer 7-9ft

my 6020.
60 in from 8 feet away is gonna be unreal while gaming and watching movies.
Cory


xbo1032 now that you mentioned it robert picture shows that the 9g is more blacker but shadow detail or black crush was noticeable maybe this is possible with your comment?


I have to say that those User Menu changes to the 20 series are quite dissapointing.

Here I was hoping for an increase in shadow detail and if users are forced to use Gamma 2 rather than having the choice to use Gamma 3 then unless the 9Gs have really improved in this area then the 9Gs will be a step down in shadow details. Also, if you don't want to use DRE then you are forced to use Game mode and Movie mode and for me the Game mode is DIM. Pioneer could have allowed these settings in the Custom mode. IMO it seems that they are trying to force videophiles to buy in the elite line.

This is a very poor choice on Pioneer's behalf and IMO the value of the 20 series just went down. It's pretty bad when lower end manufactures will have more user menu options over an elite company like Pioneer and are much cheaper as well.

xbo1032 now that you mentioned it robert picture shows that the 9g is more blacker but shadow detail or black crush was noticeable

1. This has everything to do with the camera and how the image was taken and nothing to do with the Kuro display.

2. If the Kuro display was set up wrong, then it has everything to do with the Kuro display and nothing to do with the camera or both are set up wrong.

3. The Kuro display and camera are set up properly but the video source was bad and it just happens to look that way.

Rarely will anyone see a digital snap shot that can actually showcase for us what something looked like in real life. And don't forget to take in account the type of computer display anyone views the image on, time of day, viewing angle, if it's set up properly or not, if that person just woke up, if they had eaten anything, they are happy or sad, if it's cold or hot in the room etc. If anyone has a display that is set up properly, then they need to read "1", "2" and "3" again.

well if the non elites have less menu options, are they still better than panasonic and samsung plasmas when it comes to menu options??

well if the non elites have less menu options, are they still better than panasonic and samsung plasmas when it comes to menu options??

Personally, I have always found that in general samsung sets have always been the best when it comes setup options and in my opinion this years models are the best ones yet. That being said a lot of the settings that they provide are largely useless or at least should never be used, but a well thats just my opinion.

Personally, I have always found that in general samsung sets have always been the best when it comes setup options and in my opinion this years models are the best ones yet. That being said a lot of the settings that they provide are largely useless or at least should never be used, but a well thats just my opinion.

A lot of useless options isn't necessarily better than a few very useful options.
It's a matter of whether the options truly add valuable user customization or
not. In Pioneer's case, DRE, Gamma, and enhancer mode changes can have a
rather significant effect on PQ. When it comes to other manufacturers, one
must ask if they have equivalent features that are as useful or not on their
mainstream (not necessarily high end) TVs. From my previous experience, not
really. Samsung, in particular, apparently have rubbed a few folks the wrong
way with DNIe in years past (but at least it could be disabled, if I recall correctly).

Originally Posted by Vashti
I interpret this as good news!!! If D-Nice didn't know, he'd say so. If he knew and couldn't say, well...

Disclosure: I am a self-professed optimist and prone to seeing the world through rose-colored glasses.

Add: This was about a larger screen size in the 10th generation.


Hey Vashti, I like your interpretation of nice's comment! Good thought, thanks.

I have to say that those User Menu changes to the 20 series are quite dissapointing.

Here I was hoping for an increase in shadow detail and if users are forced to use Gamma 2 rather than having the choice to use Gamma 3 then unless the 9Gs have really improved in this area then the 9Gs will be a step down in shadow details. Also, if you don't want to use DRE then you are forced to use Game mode and Movie mode and for me the Game mode is DIM. Pioneer could have allowed these settings in the Custom mode. IMO it seems that they are trying to force videophiles to buy in the elite line.

This is a very poor choice on Pioneer's behalf and IMO the value of the 20 series just went down. It's pretty bad when lower end manufactures will have more user menu options over an elite company like Pioneer and are much cheaper as well.I agree.

If the main objective of the menu option reduction was to make life easier for the average consumer then Pioneer could have easily moved the settings to the service menu. The fact that they didn't means that they either don't care about users who know what they're doing. Or they want to force guys like us to buy the Elites. Or maybe they just have no clue how to do their job properly. Having noise reduction features turned on forcefully is a big *BIG* let down. I can say that if I had preordered a 9G non-elite, I'd cancel it right now. I just hope that Pioneer Europe will not drop the ball in such a major way.

If the main objective of the menu option reduction was to make life easier for the average consumer then Pioneer could have easily moved the settings to the service menu. The fact that they didn't means that they either don't care about users who know what they're doing. Or they want to force guys like us to buy the Elites. Or maybe they just have no clue how to do their job properly. Having noise reduction features turned on forcefully is a big *BIG* let down. I can say that if I had preordered a 9G non-elite, I'd cancel it right now. I just hope that Pioneer Europe will not drop the ball in such a major way.

Hey. Could all you original non-elite folks do us regularly elite folks a favor and stick with your original plan? ;) We don't need a shortage on Elite units anymore than may already occur. :rolleyes: Um.. Think of all the money you'll save!! :rolleyes:

Based on the pdf manuals released recently, the european versions of the non-Elite 9G Pioneer plasmas still provide access to the same settings as for the 8G ... the restrictions only seem to apply to the USA market.

Based on the pdf manuals released recently, the european versions of the non-Elite 9G Pioneer plasmas still provide access to the same settings as for the 8G ... the restrictions only seem to apply to the USA market.
Great to know - thanks! :)

Based on the pdf manuals released recently, the european versions of the non-Elite 9G Pioneer plasmas still provide access to the same settings as for the 8G ... the restrictions only seem to apply to the USA market.

If true, I can't see myself touching the 6020 now. Maybe it's time I did the rounds on LCDs again.

If true, I can't see myself touching the 6020 now. Maybe it's time I did the rounds on LCDs again.

Oh yuck. LCDs. ;) Besides. You don't touch the Kuro. The Kuro touches you. ;)

If the main objective of the menu option reduction was to make life easier for the average consumer then Pioneer could have easily moved the settings to the service menu. The fact that they didn't means that they either don't care about users who know what they're doing. Or they want to force guys like us to buy the Elites. Or maybe they just have no clue how to do their job properly. Having noise reduction features turned on forcefully is a big *BIG* let down. I can say that if I had preordered a 9G non-elite, I'd cancel it right now. I just hope that Pioneer Europe will not drop the ball in such a major way.

If I had pre-ordered I would have cancelled as well. I'm betting that Pioneer wants a bigger profit marging and forcing those who want the ability to control extras to buy in the elite line. I'm sure Pioneer's cost between the standard and elite versions is very small as the majority of the difference is software related.

Pioneer plasmas are not cheap and limiiting the user menu and forcing options on the low end models to have an inferior picture (at least IMO) due to forcing different settings is IMO a disservice to the customer.

xbo1032 now that you mentioned it robert picture shows that the 9g is more blacker but shadow detail or black crush was noticeable maybe this is possible with your comment?

This is defintely my concern. I am already of the opinion that there needs to be improvements in shadow details on the 8G, and with a 20 series you'll lose some basic controls which means the 9Gs may lag behind the 8Gs in shadow details.

Those pics do have me concerned as not only do Robert's show black crush, so do the engadget pics. I don't have photography experience and I take pics with a grain of salt but it still puzzles me that if it were a photography issue the why have two different photographers photos show the same?:confused:

If I had pre-ordered I would have cancelled as well. I'm betting that Pioneer wants a bigger profit marging and forcing those who want the ability to control extras to buy in the elite line. I'm sure Pioneer's cost between the standard and elite versions is very small as the majority of the difference is software related.

Pioneer plasmas are not cheap and limiiting the user menu and forcing options on the low end models to have an inferior picture (at least IMO) due to forcing different settings is IMO a disservice to the customer.

...hey at least you get a nifty 1990s 100M Ethernet Port :rolleyes:

Based on the pdf manuals released recently, the european versions of the non-Elite 9G Pioneer plasmas still provide access to the same settings as for the 8G ... the restrictions only seem to apply to the USA market.

If true, this makes the decision even more stupid.

Somewhere in the background, I hear Nancy Kerrigan moaning " WHY? WHY? WHY?""

Great :rolleyes:, the last 5 pages of this thread have me ???????, if I should decide against pre-ordering the 6020. I've never had a panel that forces NR and doesn't allow you to turn it off, :confused: hell even crappy Vizio's allow you to turn NR off. The Debate now, 6010 or 6020 anyone????????????????

Seriously, with all the talk about the lack of user adjustment and such, I gotta
ask you guys something.

HONESTLY.... (regarding the non-elite)

Do you think the 8G will have better PQ than the 9G considering the 8G has
more user adjustment features? HONESTLY, do you think so? Forget the
blacks for a sec... give your opinion.

I'm really concerned that the 8G may have a better picture (barring the black levels). So yes, this is a HUGE concern for me.

I honestly can't help but think Pioneer is not stupid enough to take away adjustment features (even from the Service Menu) without making for sure that the settings they are forcing on us are optimal. I really think folks are going to be more than pleasantly surprised with the non-elites.

Unfortunately companies think with their pocket book first. I may be a bit skeptical, but Pioneer plasmas are high priced items. With Pioneer outsourcing to Panasonic, obviously profit margin is an issue of concern for them. So it's hard not to think that if someone is willing to shell out extra for a Pioneer now that those who are particular as many of us are wouldn't be willing to pay the extra for an Elite. And since Pioneer has pushed themselves ahead of the pack with black levels, it seems to me that they are taking advantage of some consumers.

There are a lot of folks interested in the non-elites thanks to the price, and I don't think we're helping them by making assumptions before the TV is out. I understand they should be aware that things are not quite the same, but I think we're causing too much panic.

Maybe so, but taking away something they've been providing on a high price ticket is not a good thing. When you find more picture adjustments on Samsung's, LG's, and others on their low end TVs over Pioneer's non-elite series I see a real problem. That's just my opinion. However, I am for sure now not going to pre-order until I see one in person and do some comparisons.

...hey at least you get a nifty 1990s 100M Ethernet Port :rolleyes:

That's it I'm pre-ordering one now! ;)

I really think you guys are going over board with the hardcoded settings.....especially the NR features. Although they are On all the time, that does not mean they are maxed out. I don't like what they have done either, but I'm not going to create pre-conceptions of "the PQ is going to suck" or "the NR features are going to destroy details" before I see the panel.

Let's not forget that 2 of the NR features were hardcoded to "On" on the 8G Kuros. Didn't hear anyone complaining them.

On the 7G non-Elites, DRE was hardcoded to "On". Didn't hear anyone complaining about that feature....after the panel was released.

Let's just wait and see how the PQ holds up. I don't think Pioneer NA would shoot themselves in the foot by hardcoding these features the "wrong" way.

If I had pre-ordered I would have cancelled as well.

Although everyone has their opinion and is entitled to share it, I don't think it's helping anyone to make statements like this. Can we please wait until someone actually compares the 9G Elite to the non-Elite before posting how Pioneer has let you down? I've followed this thread and the 8G thread for the past 6 months, and decided to pre-order the 5020. When I found out about the lack of adjustability for *some* of the picture quality features, I was concerned for a few minutes until I realized that I'm probably not the sort of person that would notice things that most people need a computer to tell are out of calibration. The 5020 is Pioneer's entry level panel. It's going to be better than any other plasma out there (short of the Elites). You're making me have buyer's remorse for no reason!!

Can we please wait until someone actually compares the 9G Elite to the non-Elite before posting how Pioneer has let you down?

While I totally agree with what you're saying, the reason I'm contemplating cancelling my 6020 pre-order is not because Pioneer has let me down, it's because right now I'm unsure if they let me down. I'd rather be 100% sure I'm buying the right panel (like I was prior to this information) then risk having buyers remorse on such a high priced item.

Although everyone has their opinion and is entitled to share it, I don't think it's helping anyone to make statements like this. Can we please wait until someone actually compares the 9G Elite to the non-Elite before posting how Pioneer has let you down? I've followed this thread and the 8G thread for the past 6 months, and decided to pre-order the 5020. When I found out about the lack of adjustability for *some* of the picture quality features, I was concerned for a few minutes until I realized that I'm probably not the sort of person that would notice things that most people need a computer to tell are out of calibration. The 5020 is Pioneer's entry level panel. It's going to be better than any other plasma out there (short of the Elites). You're making me have buyer's remorse for no reason!!

I'm in a different situation than most here likely so that's why I am so frustrated. I already have an 8G so if you don't have one I'm sure the 9G will be fine. I have upgraded my TVs every year over the last 5 years and it's not a cheap hobby. The more I'm into this hobby the more particular I am. If shadow detail is worse on the 9G, then those of you who don't own one aren't going to notice likely as people here still think the 8Gs shadow details are sufficient but I don't. So if it's worse I will notice it and it will bother me.

Having said that, if it costs me $2000 to sell my 6010 and get a 6020 with better black levels but goes down hill in other areas it's hard to justify spending the premium. And to have to tack on another $1000 just to get some basic features (like color temp???) it's very dissappointing to say the least.

I'm just about done griping and I don't mean to rain on anyones parade but I can't gripe about these things with the wife. She'll tell me to be content with what I have:p.

Let's not forget that 2 of the NR features were hardcoded to "On" on the 8G Kuros. Didn't hear anyone complaining them.
If I had bought one you would have heard a complaint from me... ;)

It's not the first time Pioneer's firmware programmers (or decision makers) have dropped the ball. Do you remember the default Drive Mode setting in the European models which made all European Pioneer plasmas show motion judder with European video content? But at least that mistake was easy to correct in the OSD.

I don't think Pioneer NA would shoot themselves in the foot by hardcoding these features the "wrong" way.
Any forced noise reduction (which manipulates the incoming video data) is wrong in my book. You may have a different opinion than me of what is acceptable and what not. But that won't change my opinion.

Hey, all hope is not lost. Everybody (who doesn't like force noise reduction) will have to buy Elites now. That just raises the price to get a 9G Pioneer. Especially because the Elite dealer rules are so strict...

so the point is, there may actually be a drop in quality on the horizon towards the top of the market...Although maybe not.

Now there's a definite statement.

Let's just wait and see how the PQ holds up. I don't think Pioneer NA would shoot themselves in the foot by hardcoding these features the "wrong" way.



Spot on!! D-Nice;

Come on folks .... like D says, let's give Pio a chance. You fail to remember that Pioneer, with such a small market share, would not even exist in the PDP market today if it was not for the fact that they have managed to build what most all would consider the 'finest' picture available in flat panel technology. They are NOT going to shoot themselves in the foot by taking a step backwards on their 'entry' level models (which at a msrp of 4k) is not exactly 'cheap' to a lot of folks already, so I can not believe their game plan is trying to force people into the Elite models. If I'm at the controls at Pioneer, I'm sure not thinking the game plan for 08 is to sit there and tell the board members ... "gee, why don't we take our new non elite series ... price them considerly more than the 'average' 50" PDP ... AND ... take a couple steps backwards on pic quality (compaired to last years model) to boot"!!!! That ought to be a winning strategy for a company who only survives today 'DO' to the picture quality of their displays:eek:

So sit back, chill out, pop a cold one and relax ..... I predict that after the new units finally appear and garnish (ONCE AGAIN) rave reviews by the professional reviewers ... all this premature speculation (and that's ALL it can be at this point) will quickly dissapear.

As a company, Pioneer simply can not afford to lose sight of what got them to where they are today, or they might of as well of just sold the whole works to Pannasonic now. ;)

Hi Pioneer Distributors on this forum, I need two buy two Pro 151FD units, so if you can PM me your best price I would appreciate it.

Thank you!

Peace

Wow, talk about lazy. :)

I really think you guys are going over board with the hardcoded settings.....

Let's just wait and see how the PQ holds up. I don't think Pioneer NA would shoot themselves in the foot by hardcoding these features the "wrong" way.

The problem is that the hardcoded settings are significantly different than what you have recommended in the past.

If you want DRE off, your only options are Movie or Game mode. And Movie has a gamma of 1.

Your current settings for the 5080 / 5010 / 6010 all have DRE off and use a gamma of 3. Aren't the new settings pretty far removed from these optimal settings ?

So we would be left to believe that

1. DRE Mid/off really isn't that significant (not true to my eyes)
2. Differences in gamma 1 and gamma 3 aren't really that significant (hard to get any calibrators to agree)
3. The new sets will simply behave very differently than the past (reworked gamma curve?)

I have found your settings to be incredibly useful in the past and appreciate your willingness to accomodate all the variant requests. Your work has allowed us to really get the most out of our sets, but these presets are just so far from the settings you have recommended in the past.

People with a pre-order now, however, have every reason to withhold their judgement in the same manner in which you are withholding yours. A very unfortunate consequence of yet another marketing decision by Pioneer.

This is defintely my concern. I am already of the opinion that there needs to be improvements in shadow details on the 8G, and with a 20 series you'll lose some basic controls which means the 9Gs may lag behind the 8Gs in shadow details.

Those pics do have me concerned as not only do Robert's show black crush, so do the engadget pics. I don't have photography experience and I take pics with a grain of salt but it still puzzles me that if it were a photography issue the why have two different photographers photos show the same?:confused:

If by "needed" you mean would be nice I agree....but considering I owned the t.v. that many seem to think is the best with detail(sony 60a3000 sxrd) and it was no better than my 1150HD I don't think it is "needed" in the way you do.




D-Nice, what NR reductions are stuck on, on the 8g's? Are they just not shown to the user?

They are NOT going to shoot themselves in the foot by taking a step backwards on their 'entry' level models ...

If I'm at the controls at Pioneer, I'm sure not thinking the game plan for 08 is to sit there and tell the board members ... "gee, why don't we take our new non elite series ... price them considerly more than the 'average' 50" PDP ... AND ... take a couple steps backwards on pic quality ...

As a company, Pioneer simply can not afford to lose sight of what got them to where they are today, or they might of as well of just sold the whole works to Pannasonic now. ;)

I take it you disagree with my bottom line -

You may be giving more people a reason to buy an Elite, but you're giving fewer people a reason to buy a Pioneer ...

Spot on!! D-Nice;

Come on folks .... like D says, let's give Pio a chance. You fail to remember that Pioneer, with such a small market share, would not even exist in the PDP market today if it was not for the fact that they have managed to build what most all would consider the 'finest' picture available in flat panel technology. They are NOT going to shoot themselves in the foot by taking a step backwards on their 'entry' level models (which at a msrp of 4k) is not exactly 'cheap' to a lot of folks already, so I can not believe their game plan is trying to force people into the Elite models. If I'm at the controls at Pioneer, I'm sure not thinking the game plan for 08 is to sit there and tell the board members ... "gee, why don't we take our new non elite series ... price them considerly more than the 'average' 50" PDP ... AND ... take a couple steps backwards on pic quality (compaired to last years model) to boot"!!!! That ought to be a winning strategy for a company who only survives today 'DO' to the picture quality of their displays:eek:

So sit back, chill out, pop a cold one and relax ..... I predict that after the new units finally appear and garnish (ONCE AGAIN) rave reviews by the professional reviewers ... all this premature speculation (and that's ALL it can be at this point) will quickly dissapear.

As a company, Pioneer simply can not afford to lose sight of what got them to where they are today, or they might of as well of just sold the whole works to Pannasonic now. ;)



And where are they today??? I mean lets be honest, where they are is failing to compete in the market against companies that produce lesser quality panels. The sad fact is "us', the people on this board are in the minority, most are not concerned with forced settings and don't know what a NR function is or does. This sucks, I now have to really consider if I would be better off with the 6010????????????

Here's a question that has been bothering me for a while.

Suppose you have a poorly encoded DVD such that the 3:2 cadence is not consistent.
Will the PDP start bouncing between 60 Hz and 72 Hz?
Will this be visible?

Thanks.

Would you like them to become the same as those other brands though? Mediocre with good prices?
If that is what it would take to stay alive longer I'm not interested.
Quality is very important to people who actually care, not Joe6pack.

Would you like them to become the same as those other brands though? Mediocre with good prices?
If that is what it would take to stay alive longer I'm not interested.
Quality is very important to people who actually care, not Joe6pack.

Of course not, but that only adds to the question facing those of us placing pre-orders here, "Are the 9G's the begining of a trend toward the middle of the pack? And if so would we be better off going with the 8G" I for one would like to know this before I shell out 4 grand. :confused:

Sometimes Joe6pack cares but can't afford it. Anyway, I'm with some of the others here and I'm waiting to see all of these new panels with my own eyes. I refuse to buy something I'm not going to be happy with soon after I buy.

And where are they today??? I mean lets be honest, where they are is failing to compete in the market against companies that produce lesser quality panels. The sad fact is "us', the people on this board are in the minority, most are not concerned with forced settings and don't know what a NR function is or does. This sucks, I now have to really consider if I would be better off with the 6010????????????

If you want the best of anything you are going to pay. Pioneer will never produce an Elite panel at the price of a Vizio. I understand that these "shortcuts" to save costs on Pioneers's part (pure sepculation for the record) don't make videophile's like us pleased, BUT they have drastically lowered the MSRP......something has to give. They still offer the Elite's if you want "it all".

We can't expect the 5020's to be exactly like last year's Elites AND be hallf the price. Their will always be price differentiation via build quality/component quality/options...............Pioneer is creating that differentiation. They could not survive being a niche company for high end gear only. The flat panel market is as cutthroat as business gets. Die or evolve. Pio chose to evolve. That evolution means good and bad things to different people. I can now afford to buy a Kuro, even if it is "gimped" ;) by some standards. Those that want it all still have the Elite.

Everyone wins....even though everyone doesn't get exactly what they eant at exactly thye price they want it.

Of course not, but that only adds to the question facing those of us placing pre-orders here, "Are the 9G's the begining of a trend toward the middle of the pack? And if so would we be better off going with the 8G" I for one would like to know this before I shell out 4 grand. :confused:


Well, luckily you do not have to pre-order one. Like me, you can wait to see them for yourself.
Hopefully this is not the beginning of the end for superb quality in the non-elites.

Sometimes Joe6pack cares but can't afford it. Anyway, I'm with some of the others here and I'm waiting to see all of these new panels with my own eyes. I refuse to buy something I'm not going to be happy with soon after I buy.

Well, then Joe needs to buy what he can afford.
Pioneer can't keep the same superiority and lower their prices to the mediocre panels' prices.

Well, then Joe needs to buy what he can afford.
Pioneer can't keep the same superiority and lower their prices to the mediocre panels' prices.

This is true but if they price themselves out of the market who wins then?

The people that can afford one. Life is far from fair and electronic gear is no different.
Have to personally decide how important a display is to 'you' and make concessions in other areas of your life if you want the best.
Believe me, I wish one could buy a 151 for $3K.

I already pre ordered my 6020. It's either that or wait for the Panny 58" 800, but I'd rather have a 60" screen that the Pioneer offers. I can't afford a Pioneer Elite. I'm not an expert by any means, but it seems like there are an awful lot of negative comments about a plasma that no one has seen yet. I'm trusting that Pioneer will make an excellent tv in the 20 series. They have a reputation for making superb televisions. Thinking positive here!

The people that can afford one. Life is far from fair and electronic gear is no different.
Have to personally decide how important a display is to 'you' and make concessions in other areas of your life if you want the best.
Believe me, I wish one could buy a 151 for $3K.

I'm not looking for panel equality for the masses. All I'm saying is that Pioneer is making a decision to lower prices by doing what they have to do to make a buck. If that means less quality at the entry level but the big dogs can stay in the line then I guess I'll have to make a choice to buy in the fall or wait until I can afford the panel I think will make me happiest with my purchase.

Can't wait to see what the next several months bring. :D

This is true but if they price themselves out of the market who wins then?

Joe Diamond-studded-imported-solid-gold-keg-of-beer?

I already pre ordered my 6020. It's either that or wait for the Panny 58" 800, but I'd rather have a 60" screen that the Pioneer offers. I can't afford a Pioneer Elite. I'm not an expert by any means, but it seems like there are an awful lot of negative comments about a plasma that no one has seen yet. I'm trusting that Pioneer will make an excellent tv in the 20 series. They have a reputation for making superb televisions. Thinking positive here!

Don't forget you can still get a 6010 from a select few dealers, which would be better than a 58-800u.

Well I don't want to buy a 151 for $3K. I want the price of gas back at a buck. In college I used to fill up my firebird for 89 cents a gallon!!! Since I am wishing, how about lower fed taxes, lower property taxes, and lower sales tax. Then I could afford to pay msrp for new electronics! All I can say is that current economic conditions have forced me to buy smartly on the internet so I can avoid my 8.25% sales tax. I would love to support local businesses but who can afford to? I am getting old. This wasn't the brave new world I was expecting 15 years ago.

If by "needed" you mean would be nice I agree....but considering I owned the t.v. that many seem to think is the best with detail(sony 60a3000 sxrd) and it was no better than my 1150HD I don't think it is "needed" in the way you do...

Well what you don't realize (the shadow details) won't matter. I have both a 6010 and a 60XBR1 and there's really no debate that the Kuro lags behind in details(whether the a3000 does or not i can't comment on). Having said that those of you who don't see the difference don't realize it whereas I see it and know. I'll leave it at that because I don't want to de-rail this thread. We may have to agree to disagree but I do have both TVs in home and took D-Nice's user menu settings and it didn't help.

I am not in disagreement with anything you said. :)

Well, then Joe needs to buy what he can afford.
Pioneer can't keep the same superiority and lower their prices to the mediocre panels' prices.

Your missing the point, Pioneer like any other company out there is in this to make "MONEY", if they can't do that on the high end then one of two things will happen. 1. They will change their business plan to compete with the companies that are making money in the flat panel market (= lesser quality). Or 2. they will fold and get out of the market all together. I'm not sure where your thinking comes from in that Pioneer is this "quality first" company. Make no mistake about it, like all companies, it's money first quality second. Trust me the share holders for Pioneer could care less if they are selling the best or worst toaster so long as they are making a proffit. So again this topic is very valid to those of us with pre-orders pending, are the
9G non-elites a step up from the 8G's? or are they simply a step in the trend toward the middle of the pack????????????

Well what you don't realize (the shadow details) won't matter. I have both a 6010 and a 60XBR1 and there's really no debate that the Kuro lags behind in details(whether the a3000 does or not i can't comment on). Having said that those of you who don't see the difference don't realize it whereas I see it and know. I'll leave it at that because I don't want to de-rail this thread. We may have to agree to disagree but I do have both TVs in home and took D-Nice's user menu settings and it didn't help.

So you are right and I am wrong? :rolleyes:
I can't see with my 29 year old 20/20 eyes?
The A3000 is considered by many to have greater detail than the XBR1...even according to one of LCD's biggest fans, Westa.

Sorry for off topic, back to regular programming.

Your missing the point, Pioneer like any other company out there is in this to make "MONEY", if they can't do that on the high end then one of two things will happen. 1. They will change their business plan to compete with the companies that are making money in the flat panel market (= lesser quality). Or 2. they will fold and get out of the market all together. I'm not sure where your think comes from in that Pioneer is this "quality first" company. Make no mistake about it, like all companies, it's money first quality second. Trust me the share holders for Pioneer could care less if they are selling the best or worst toaster so long as they are making a proffit. So again this topic is very valid to those of us with pre-orders pending, are the
9G non-elites a step up from the 8G's? or are they simply a step in the trend toward the middle of the pack????????????


What point am I missing, because it's not the ones you pointed out.
I never said the company itself isn't in this to make money, I'd have to be a a moron to think that.
All I am saying is that their elites should stay "elite" as they are superior to anything out there.
If the 20 series sets are inferior to the 8g elites then that stinks, but there are still the elites that will inevitably be better than the 8g's.
Always options.

I’ve been trying to keep up with this thread, but it’s possible I may have missed this…but does anyone have any updated info as to when the 141FD Signatures may actually start showing up? Robert?…D-Nice?

The reason I ask is that I’m in the process of getting quotes from a couple of different integrator/installers in my area. So far, I’ve had Tweeter and a local “high-end” type integrator come out. And, of course, even though my checkbook says I shouldn’t, I really like the local high-end guy’s ideas (he’s still working up quotes…gulp!)

The high-end guy is suggesting I go with the 141FD Signature (yes, he’s an authorized dealer), but thought the 151FD is a good choice as well. However, he’s saying the 141FD probably won’t begin showing up until November. He said the 151FD’s would probably be late August…maybe September.

Tweeter is telling me (still) that my order for the 151FD should be in at the end of June, but they have no information on the 141FD. I’m ambivalent between the two models at this point. However, November is too far into football season!:p

I would imagine the larger chains get the earliest allocations, but how much later do the smaller independent dealers start getting their allocation? It would seem the distributors would want to try to keep the smaller dealers in business as well as the chains…but I have no clue as to how that works.

I really think you guys are going over board with the hardcoded settings.....especially the NR features. Although they are On all the time, that does not mean they are maxed out. I don't like what they have done either, but I'm not going to create pre-conceptions of "the PQ is going to suck" or "the NR features are going to destroy details" before I see the panel.

Let's not forget that 2 of the NR features were hardcoded to "On" on the 8G Kuros. Didn't hear anyone complaining them.

On the 7G non-Elites, DRE was hardcoded to "On". Didn't hear anyone complaining about that feature....after the panel was released.

Let's just wait and see how the PQ holds up. I don't think Pioneer NA would shoot themselves in the foot by hardcoding these features the "wrong" way.

D-Nice-

First of all thanks for all of your information and your expert work on establishing reference settings on the Pioneer units for end users to at least start from. When I had my 5080, I simply used your USER reference settings and never gave it a second thought after that-PQ was excellent on all sources.

My question is this about the hard coded settings in the 9G non-Elite units.
Can one go into the Service Menu and make adjustments?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Although everyone has their opinion and is entitled to share it, I don't think it's helping anyone to make statements like this. Can we please wait until someone actually compares the 9G Elite to the non-Elite before posting how Pioneer has let you down? I've followed this thread and the 8G thread for the past 6 months, and decided to pre-order the 5020. When I found out about the lack of adjustability for *some* of the picture quality features, I was concerned for a few minutes until I realized that I'm probably not the sort of person that would notice things that most people need a computer to tell are out of calibration. The 5020 is Pioneer's entry level panel. It's going to be better than any other plasma out there (short of the Elites). You're making me have buyer's remorse for no reason!!

Ha, I just pre-ordered the 5020 yesterday, AFTER reading about the settings issue. I think everyone is blowing it well out of proportion, the 20 series will still be better than anything else except the elites, and with the killer pre-order price I got on it, well worth it.

I hope you are right as do many others.
Even if they fall just short of an 8g elite that wouldn't be horrible as they will be priced much less.

So you are right and I am wrong? :rolleyes:
I can't see with my 29 year old 20/20 eyes?
The A3000 is considered by many to have greater detail than the XBR1...even according to one of LCD's biggest fans, Westa.

Sorry for off topic, back to regular programming.

Aren't you telling me the same thing? You are right and I am wrong? I mean, I have both TVs and I'm not going by memory either and you are telling me I'm wrong:rolleyes:. I have 20/10 vision BTW. PM me or if you want I can start a seperate thread and post screen shots if you don't believe me.

I really think you guys are going over board with the hardcoded settings.....especially the NR features. Although they are On all the time, that does not mean they are maxed out. I don't like what they have done either, but I'm not going to create pre-conceptions of "the PQ is going to suck" or "the NR features are going to destroy details" before I see the panel.

Let's not forget that 2 of the NR features were hardcoded to "On" on the 8G Kuros. Didn't hear anyone complaining them.

On the 7G non-Elites, DRE was hardcoded to "On". Didn't hear anyone complaining about that feature....after the panel was released.

Let's just wait and see how the PQ holds up. I don't think Pioneer NA would shoot themselves in the foot by hardcoding these features the "wrong" way.

While I agree that many people are jumping to conclusions over
something that hasn't been seen yet, I think most are complaining
for the simple fact that Pioneer is limiting their options.

Sure, the 9G PQ might be the best ever but I think people still want
the ability to change a setting to their liking and Pioneer has taken
this away.

Just my .02 from a happy 8G owner.

Well, I figured if you were putting your opinion out as fact I should as well since I feel strongly opposite of you.
Screen shots from a camera through a PC do nothing.
Haven't I also read that you think the 8g Kuro's crush blacks?

Sorry for all the OT stuff guys.

D-Nice-

First of all thanks for all of your information and your expert work on establishing reference settings on the Pioneer units for end users to at least start from. When I had my 5080, I simply used your USER reference settings and never gave it a second thought after that-PQ was excellent on all sources.

My question is this about the hard coded settings in the 9G non-Elite units.
Can one go into the Service Menu and make adjustments?

Thanks in advance for your input.

He already answered this. And the answer was no.

Those pics do have me concerned as not only do Robert's show black crush, so do the engadget pics. I don't have photography experience and I take pics with a grain of salt but it still puzzles me that if it were a photography issue the why have two different photographers photos show the same?:confused:

I have not seen images from the other camera. However, there's many issues that effect the outcome of an image. Was the image taken hand held? Or was it on a tripod? Besides going into all of the details such as the setting of the sensor speed, color temperature, speed of lens, type of lens, (primary and zoom lenses), each type has different image quality advantages and disadvantages. Quality of lens, (resolution-contrast-sharpness) camera resolution, automatic settings, manual settings...let's not forget about the fact that the images came from a digital camera meaning the image was captured form a digital sensor...not from a transparency nor any type of negative film.

Negative film when compared to all the other types of light capturing materials/image devices has the best ability to capture the highest contrast rang and arguably resolution. Transparency (slide) film, even less so (for contrast), and digital capturing devices on a consumer level even less so (for contrast) than transparency film.

Never, never ever, take ANY image as being a true representation of real life. And that goes for photojournalism (where the photographer can choose what scene as a whole to photograph for the image he/she wants to portray including Fashion photography and the list goes on and on and on.

Then there's the issue of what type of devise are you using to view the image on, how it's set up, is it calibrated etc.

I have an opportunity to trade in my 150FD Elite Kuro for a new 151FD Elite Kuro, with the dealer agreeing to take away the 150FD and install the 151 for no charge (He is an authorized Pioneer Elite dealer) He is also letting me trade in my 95FD Elite Blu-ray player for one of the new Pioneer Elite Blu-ray players. The only downsides are that I will be without the plasma for about 1-2 months and without a Blu-Ray player for about 3 months (although I have a PS3 I can use in the meantime). In addition, I did have the 150FD professionally calibrated by UMR and will need to pay for another calibration on the new Plasma once it arrives. Does anybody think I would be making a mistake if I take him up on this offer?

Scott

Well, I figured if you were putting your opinion out as fact I should as well since I feel strongly opposite of you.
Screen shots from a camera through a PC do nothing.
Haven't I also read that you think the 8g Kuro's crush blacks?

Sorry for all the OT stuff guys.

I don't know what else to say. That's why I said we'll have to agree to disagree. My 60xbr1 shows a bit more details than my 6010 (which is calibrated with User Menu only settings) why I mentioned before I said it has crushed blacks. Did you spend time comparing both your sets or are you going by memory? Do you have a 10 series or an elite?

Here's a specific example I provided earlier:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13827018#post13827018

I promise you I am non-biased and if I were doing something wrong I would have no issues admitting it.

He already answered this. And the answer was no.

Sorry I missed that. This thread is hard to keep up with if you do not check it a couple times a day.

Thanks for the info.

I have an opportunity to trade in my 150FD Elite Kuro for a new 151FD Elite Kuro, with the dealer agreeing to take away the 150FD and install the 151 for no charge (He is an authorized Pioneer Elite dealer) He is also letting me trade in my 95FD Elite Blu-ray player for one of the new Pioneer Elite Blu-ray players. The only downsides are that I will be without the plasma for about 1-2 months and without a Blu-Ray player for about 3 months (although I have a PS3 I can use in the meantime). In addition, I did have the 150FD professionally calibrated by UMR and will need to pay for another calibration on the new Plasma once it arrives. Does anybody think I would be making a mistake if I take him up on this offer?

Scott

Do it. Don't think, and do it. ~$300 for the calibration is a very small price to pay for a otherwise free upgrade.

I have not seen images from the other camera. However, there's many issues that effect the outcome of an image. Was the image taken hand held? Or was it on a tripod? Besides going into all of the details such as the setting of the sensor speed, color temperature, speed of lens, type of lens, (primary and zoom lenses), each type has different image quality advantages and disadvantages. Quality of lens, (resolution-contrast-sharpness) camera resolution, automatic settings, manual settings...let's not forget about the fact that the images came from a digital camera meaning the image was captured form a digital sensor...not from a transparency nor any type of negative film.

Negative film when compared to all the other types of light capturing materials/image devices has the best ability to capture the highest contrast rang and arguably resolution. Transparency (slide) film, even less so (for contrast), and digital capturing devices on a consumer level even less so (for contrast) than transparency film.

Never, never ever, take ANY image as being a true representation of real life. And that goes for photojournalism (where the photographer can choose what scene as a whole to photograph for the image he/she wants to portray including Fashion photography and the list goes on and on and on.

Then there's the issue of what type of devise are you using to view the image on, how it's set up, is it calibrated etc.

I hear what you are saying, the only thing that puzzles me is the pics on engadget were with both TVs in the same pic. And when I say puzzled I'm only referring to details. Issues like color reproduction I totally understand.

However, if both TVs are in the same photo why would one TV show more detail than the other TV? Again I'm only referring to the amount of detail being shown (which should rule out the type of monitor I'm using when specifically only comparing the two in the same photo to see which one shows more). If that makes any sense.

Ha, I just pre-ordered the 5020 yesterday, AFTER reading about the settings issue. I think everyone is blowing it well out of proportion, the 20 series will still be better than anything else except the elites, and with the killer pre-order price I got on it, well worth it.

Blown out of proportions in a big way. We haven't even seen these units yet and they are treating them like it is a Vizio.

D-Nice-

First of all thanks for all of your information and your expert work on establishing reference settings on the Pioneer units for end users to at least start from. When I had my 5080, I simply used your USER reference settings and never gave it a second thought after that-PQ was excellent on all sources.

My question is this about the hard coded settings in the 9G non-Elite units.
Can one go into the Service Menu and make adjustments?

Thanks in advance for your input.The settings cannot be changed in the SM. The only setting I'm truly worried about is DRE. I can compensate for gamma, but not DRE. Look like my reference settings for the xx20 series will be based off of Movie mode since DRE is turned off in that mode. And I will be including Service Menu RGB offsets :)

Hi D-Nice,

It might be nice to have your chart from post #2198 in one of the reserved posts at the beginning since it summarizes the difference between the various modes nicely. Or, another option might be to use one of your reserved posts for links to various interesting messages in this thread like #2198.

Regards,
Casey

The settings cannot be changed in the SM. The only setting I'm truly worried about is DRE. I can compensate for gamma, but not DRE. Look like my reference settings for the xx20 series will be based off of Movie mode since DRE is turned off in that mode. And I will be including Service Menu RGB offsets :)

Are gamma settings adjustable via the user menu? And if color temp is not an option your Service Menu RGB offsets make up for that?

Thanks!

D-Nice, what NR reductions are stuck on, on the 8g's? Are they just not shown to the user?Block and Mosquito NR

We are left to speculate why Pioneer would make these changes because Pioneer itself has not provided any kind of rationale.

It would seem that at their product rollout last week at the road show this subject should have been front and center. Can Robert tell us if it was discussed?

Pioneer should have explained the change to the reps in the context of their business plan. And then perhaps someone could have offered a sensible explanation here.

Instead we are left to someone accidentally noticing something on a spec sheet. Thank God for that otherwise we might have had a lot of surprised 5020 / 6020 early adopters.

Even putting the merits of the decision aside, the manner in which it was communicated, either to the reps, or from the reps to the public was poorly executed.

Are gamma settings adjustable via the user menu? And if color temp is not an option your Service Menu RGB offsets make up for that?

Thanks!Color temp controls are just like they were on previous gens. Gamma isn't availalbe on the 9G non-Elite's user menu. I said I can compensate for the lack of a gamma control.

We are left to speculate why Pioneer would make these changes because Pioneer itself has not provided any kind of rationale.

It would seem that at their product rollout last week at the road show this subject should have been front and center. Can Robert tell us if it was discussed?

Pioneer should have explained the change to the reps in the context of their business plan. And then perhaps someone could have offered a sensible explanation here.

Instead we are left to someone accidentally noticing something on a spec sheet. Thank God for that otherwise we might have had a lot of surprised 5020 / 6020 early adopters.

Even putting the merits of the decision aside, the manner in which it was communicated, either to the reps, or from the reps to the public was poorly executed.The roadshow was for Elite dealers. The focus was the Elites not non-Elites.

Block and Mosquito NR

And these are user option on/off on the 8G's of course???

And these are user option on/off on the 8G's of course???
They have never been available in the user menu for the non-Elites. On/off functionality was limited to the Elites.

They have never been available in the user menu for the non-Elites. On/off functionality was limited to the Elites.

Ok, so the 9Gs now have all NR fuctions set to on? No high-Med-low even?

Ok, so the 9Gs now have all NR fuctions set to on? No high-Med-low even?They are on at different levels. I do not know what those levels are.

They are on at different levels. I do not know what those levels are.


What I meant was are there adjustable levels at the user end, aside from the on/off that isn't. From your answer I guess no. Very troubling for me. Anyone think there will be advanced reviews or comparisons prior to the release, so those of us with pre-orders might back out at the 11th hour? ;)

What I meant was are there adjustable levels at the user end, aside from the on/off that isn't. From your answer I guess no. Very troubling for me. Anyone think there will be advanced reviews or comparisons prior to the release, so those of us with pre-orders might back out at the 11th hour? ;)That doesn't make sense. If the items don't exist in the user menu, why would there be adjustable levels at the user end? If you truly worried about preset NR features, don't buy a 9G. Just don't bitch and complain later when it is proven that Pioneer has implement the hardcoding correctly and the xx20 series is backordered.

That doesn't make sense. If the items don't exist in the user menu, why would there be adjustable levels at the user end? If you truly worried about preset NR features, don't buy a 9G. Just don't bitch and complain later when it is proven that Pioneer has implement the hardcoding correctly and the xx20 series is backordered.

Well said D-Nice.

Woah there is way too much doom and gloom here. I highly, highly doubt the 9Gs will be inferior panels to the 8Gs. It is quite likely that movie mode will be pretty much optimized in regards to the hard-coded settings. NR in movie mode will likely be set to a low level, and will similar to last year's hardcoded NR. Many settings will still be fully adjustable. I have an 8G, but I'm still getting a 9G and leaning towards a 6020. The MSRP drop sealed the deal for me. Pioneers engineers, whose superiors rely on good reviews and word-of-mouth to drive sales, are going to put out the best PQ they can while still respecting the limitation of hard-coding some settings. If it didn't work, they would have abandoned the idea I'm sure. Also there is no way they would release a product where reviewers would say they wish they had the previous generation non-elite. Unless they plan on making like 99 percent elite panels, that is.

Other than movie, game mode looks promising as well. What about User mode, does it still exist? If so, which hard-coding will it follow?

My prediction, based on the fact that pioneer has taken a substantial leap with each generation, is that the 5020/6020s will be substantially better than the 8Gs at a lower MSRP. They will also blow any other 2008 set out of the water except the elites.

Color temp controls are just like they were on previous gens. Gamma isn't availalbe on the 9G non-Elite's user menu. I said I can compensate for the lack of a gamma control.

That came out wrong:o. I meant adjustable via the service menu not the user menu.

Well what you don't realize (the shadow details) won't matter. I have both a 6010 and a 60XBR1 and there's really no debate that the Kuro lags behind in details(whether the a3000 does or not i can't comment on). Having said that those of you who don't see the difference don't realize it whereas I see it and know. I'll leave it at that because I don't want to de-rail this thread. We may have to agree to disagree but I do have both TVs in home and took D-Nice's user menu settings and it didn't help.
I totally get your point with the XBR1 level of details with HT HD Movies the level of details that could make you go WTF WoW was amazing and to me the true Holy Grail is combining those details into a flat panel would be ideal.

Though I'm in the LCD camp because of my primary viewing room conditions if I could find a panel combine both the strengths of the Kuro with the details of the Q006 or XBR1 I owned I'd make room for it in my loft area as I've never seen any panel fully match those levels of details and no black crush whatsoever.

If 9G or any panel can merge the two I'm buying. Not a criticism or 9G as I support competition and truly want someone to match those level of details strengths fully. It haunts you when you've had it and it forced involuntary wow factor and then you swap to other panels that lack the details and the WoW is gone and historically so is the SXRD.

I hope 9G or somebody can bring the level of details of that XBR1 with the blacks. Don't get me wrong it also had it's weaknesses with SD but damn what it was best with was amazing at times that blew away the Panny Plasma I owned afterwards - comparatively the Panny had ZERO WoW viewing the same content along with a half dozen other issues I hated about the TV. I'm pulling for the details come along for the 9G blacks.:)

Ha, I just pre-ordered the 5020 yesterday, AFTER reading about the settings issue. I think everyone is blowing it well out of proportion, the 20 series will still be better than anything else except the elites, and with the killer pre-order price I got on it, well worth it.

*PRECICELY!*

I can't help but think after the release of 5020/6020, we'll be laughing at the
last few pages. Everyone has every right to feel reservations on pre-ordering
a non-elite, but at the same time the price is actually approaching that of the
competition. Has anyone even bothered checking out the insane prices the
forum sponsors are offering? Further, the elites are approaching the prices of
the non-elites of a year ago. To me, anyone who considered to buy a
1080P non-elite *LAST YEAR* should just buy the elite this year. You
get a better TV for a similar price with even more features than before.

PS

MSRP of 151FD is $6500... check out the price of the 6010: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/PlasmaTVs+Monitors/PioneerTVs/ci.PDP-5010FD.Kuro
MSRP of 111FD is $5000... check out the price of the 5010: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/PlasmaTVs+Monitors/PioneerTVs/ci.PDP-5010FD.Kuro

And, you can still bargain with an elite dealer. I did and got $1500 off the
Canadian MSRP last year at RELEASE. I think concerned folks should do a
little more homework on elite dealers if things bother you so much (sorry,
not knocking sponsors here).

I have an opportunity to trade in my 150FD Elite Kuro for a new 151FD Elite Kuro, with the dealer agreeing to take away the 150FD and install the 151 for no charge (He is an authorized Pioneer Elite dealer) He is also letting me trade in my 95FD Elite Blu-ray player for one of the new Pioneer Elite Blu-ray players. The only downsides are that I will be without the plasma for about 1-2 months and without a Blu-Ray player for about 3 months (although I have a PS3 I can use in the meantime). In addition, I did have the 150FD professionally calibrated by UMR and will need to pay for another calibration on the new Plasma once it arrives. Does anybody think I would be making a mistake if I take him up on this offer?

Scott

No, go for it.

Just don't bitch and complain later when it is proven that Pioneer has implement the hardcoding correctly and the xx20 series is backordered.

I put the chance of people not bitching and complaining later, one way or the other, at 0%.

yeah i'm in the market for either the kuro or a projector but i'm split between them.

I'm thinking of either buying the new kuro projector which seems to be very similar to the rs2 or the sony vw200. just can't decide.

Although everyone has their opinion and is entitled to share it, I don't think it's helping anyone to make statements like this. Can we please wait until someone actually compares the 9G Elite to the non-Elite before posting how Pioneer has let you down? I've followed this thread and the 8G thread for the past 6 months, and decided to pre-order the 5020. When I found out about the lack of adjustability for *some* of the picture quality features, I was concerned for a few minutes until I realized that I'm probably not the sort of person that would notice things that most people need a computer to tell are out of calibration. The 5020 is Pioneer's entry level panel. It's going to be better than any other plasma out there (short of the Elites). You're making me have buyer's remorse for no reason!!

You shouldn't be wasting your money on a Kuro then. I can't speak for past Pioneers (or the 9G's obviously--hopefully people who can will comment), but in general, these enhancing features have more of an impact on image quality than going from a $500 Vizio to a $3000 XBR. I really have to doubt Pioneer is foolish enough to make them that aggressive and wreck their displays, but this isn't just a hardcore videophile concern. In general, these types of features are ABSOLUTELY NOT minor thing you need light meters, colorimeters, and software to notice. A half blind man wearing sunglasses with an especially bad case of allergies would immediately be able to pick most of them out if they are particularly aggressive.

Being in Canada I am worried about passing up the good deals on the 5010 right now only to find that there's no way I could afford the 5020 when it comes out here. I understand that there is talk of parity pricing but I find it unlikely that this will bring the Canadian price of the new 5020 down to the close-out price of the 5010. Am I wrong? Should I bite the bullet and get the 5010?

Any comments would be appreciated.

I can't speak for past Pioneers (or the 9G's obviously--hopefully people who can will comment), but in general, these enhancing features have more of an impact on image quality than going from a $500 Vizio to a $3000 XBR.

You've got to be kidding me, right? If the difference in going from a $500 Vizio to a $3000 XBR is LESS than the difference in going from a 9G with no Gamma control to a 9G with it, then maybe I shouldn't watch TV at all.

Again, no one should be making substantiations like this yet. As D-Nice has mentioned before, it's possible that Pioneer nailed the hard-coding to the point where the user controls are no longer as important as they were on previous generations.

Being in Canada I am worried about passing up the good deals on the 5010 right now only to find that there's no way I could afford the 5020 when it comes out here. I understand that there is talk of parity pricing but I find it unlikely that this will bring the Canadian price of the new 5020 down to the close-out price of the 5010. Am I wrong? Should I bite the bullet and get the 5010?

Any comments would be appreciated.

The 5010 are selling for about $300 less right now, compared to what the 5020 will be selling on the street for.

You've got to be kidding me, right? If the difference in going from a $500 Vizio to a $3000 XBR is LESS than the difference in going from a 9G with no Gamma control to a 9G with it, then maybe I shouldn't watch TV at all.

Again, no one should be making substantiations like this yet. As D-Nice has mentioned before, it's possible that Pioneer nailed the hard-coding to the point where the user controls are no longer as important as they were on previous generations.

I was just trying to point out that, in general, these types of features are not minor issues. I emphasized I was speaking on other manufacturers, NOT Pioneer. Like I said, I seriously doubt Pioneer will actually make them that aggressive, I was just trying to provide context for why people are up in arms since your post was so dismissive. That is some pretty good selective quoting in an attempt to make me look like a jackass though. There was clearly no intended direct correlation between the Vizio/XBR hyperbole and your fabricated 9g Vs. 9G scenario. The idea was that a Vizio with everything off could potentially look better than an XBR with everything on high, I was just trying to give an idea of how dramatic these features can be.

I totally get your point with the XBR1 level of details with HT HD Movies the level of details that could make you go WTF WoW was amazing and to me the true Holy Grail is combining those details into a flat panel would be ideal.

Though I'm in the LCD camp because of my primary viewing room conditions if I could find a panel combine both the strengths of the Kuro with the details of the Q006 or XBR1 I owned I'd make room for it in my loft area as I've never seen any panel fully match those levels of details and no black crush whatsoever.

If 9G or any panel can merge the two I'm buying. Not a criticism or 9G as I support competition and truly want someone to match those level of details strengths fully. It haunts you when you've had it and it forced involuntary wow factor and then you swap to other panels that lack the details and the WoW is gone and historically so is the SXRD.

I hope 9G or somebody can bring the level of details of that XBR1 with the blacks. Don't get me wrong it also had it's weaknesses with SD but damn what it was best with was amazing at times that blew away the Panny Plasma I owned afterwards - comparatively the Panny had ZERO WoW viewing the same content along with a half dozen other issues I hated about the TV. I'm pulling for the details come along for the 9G blacks.:)

Wow that scares me. Im currently debating replacing my XBR1 SXRD with a 60" 9g. If there is a loss of detail that is noticeable then Im not buying. No way. The set I own now is a 50" and my opinion is that I shouldnt percieve a loss in detail since I will be getting 10 more inches and true 1080p. That would be a dream to get a comparison upon release.

Of course not, but that only adds to the question facing those of us placing pre-orders here, "Are the 9G's the begining of a trend toward the middle of the pack? And if so would we be better off going with the 8G" I for one would like to know this before I shell out 4 grand. :confused:

Given the rave reports from those who've actually seen the 9Gs with their own eyes, I'd say the Pios are at the head of the pack ... not heading towards the middle.

I can't believe all this anguish and fretting oven mere speculation on what "might" ... or might not ... happen with the new Pios. Why not wait and see what actually is, and see what they look like with your own eyes. Also, when the units are finally released, read the reviews from the pros and see what they have to say.

I'm betting that in spite of this or that feature you negative sooth sayers are going to love these new Pio plasmas. If you love what you see then buy what you can afford. Meanwhile please stop whining about what you don't know and can't see.

The settings cannot be changed in the SM. The only setting I'm truly worried about is DRE. I can compensate for gamma, but not DRE. Look like my reference settings for the xx20 series will be based off of Movie mode since DRE is turned off in that mode. And I will be including Service Menu RGB offsets :)


Pretty much all anyone needs to hear about this issue. You are all over it. :D
Funny you mention Movie mode. I liked that one stock best next to your User Mode reference settings on the 5080.
Had a film like character to it.

what low profile mount would you recomend for the new 6020 pioneer? thanks for your help guys!

gregdpw, We use Peerless Industries SF670 and they work great for this panel.

-Robert

Another Data Point:

I was in my local Magnolia today and asked about the delivery date on the Pro-151FD.

They showed me their buyers comments in their system and they said "End of July" as the in-stock date.

I sure hope they are just sandbagging to sell 150FD's (which they did offer to do at a discount)

I sure like the June date better! :)

Another Data Point:

I was in my local Magnolia today and asked about the delivery date on the Pro-151FD.

They showed me their buyers comments in their system and they said "End of July" as the in-stock date.

I sure hope they are just sandbagging to sell 150FD's (which they did offer to do at a discount)

I sure like the June date better! :)

They would be the first to receive them, so I would go with their release date.

If I remember correctly, the 6010 and 150 have the same mounting pattern (i.e., can use the same mount). Will this also be true for the 6020 and 151? And will the mounting pattern for the 9G Pioneers (i.e., 6020 and 151) be the same as the 8G's?

Thanks,

Paul

gregdpw, We use Peerless Industries SF670 and they work great for this panel.

-Robert

What is your opinion of the Peerless Industries One-TP?

If I remember correctly, the 6010 and 150 have the same mounting pattern (i.e., can use the same mount). Will this also be true for the 6020 and 151? And will the mounting pattern for the 9G Pioneers (i.e., 6020 and 151) be the same as the 8G's?

Thanks,

PaulYes.

What is your opinion of the Peerless Industries One-TP?

Great mount if you need a tilt. I'm not a big fan of tilting wall mounts unless you need to hang the TV very high, like in a bed room. Otherwise I do not like mounting the panel higher than is absolutely necessary.

Typically we mount 40" to 50" from the floor to the bottom of the bezel depending on the viewing distance, and other factors.

-Robert

Robert,

Which "Full Motion" wall mount would you recommend for the PRO-151FD or PDP-6020FD?

what low profile mount would you recomend for the new 6020 pioneer? thanks for your help guys!

Through our showroom our installers use PDR Mounts on all of there jobs.

http://www.pdrmounts.com/pdr2/

Barely 5 inches of closed width is not acceptable on these mounts.

Ideally, we need 3 inches or so with 3 feet of articulation. I would look at chief mounts.

paul

I think if you look at this at the Corporate viewpoint, Pioneer is doing what it has to do. I don't think that they are leading the pack financialy. They need a bigger byte of the apple. By making the none-elite closer to Joe6Pack's wallet and still haveing a unit that is probably better than anything out there, they might be able to accomplish this. There is still the Elite for those that want the best, and now you will get more for your $$$$ than before.

Another Data Point:

I was in my local Magnolia today and asked about the delivery date on the Pro-151FD.

They showed me their buyers comments in their system and they said "End of July" as the in-stock date.

I sure hope they are just sandbagging to sell 150FD's (which they did offer to do at a discount)

I sure like the June date better! :)

Speaking to various Elite dealers nationwide they are still hoping end of July, last year they showed up earlier and they usually show up at most dealers at the same time.

When will see some reviews??? I usually enjoy Sound and Vision's work.

I concur. I was in a Best Buy / Magnolia dealer near the Portland Airport today and their system did not have the 151FD in it yet and the msrp of the 150FD that they had on display was marked at standard msrp still.

Yes.

Thanks, and phew!

I knew I was going to be ordering one of the 9G Pioneers, and took a (semi-educated) gamble and ordered a Chief PNR2043 mount. Now I'm good to go when my TV arrives!

Paul

I concur. I was in a Best Buy / Magnolia dealer near the Portland Airport today and their system did not have the 151FD in it yet and the msrp of the 150FD that they had on display was marked at standard msrp still.


Yea I called them 2 weeks ago and they didnt have any idea on the timing (just doing homework) :(

Is this the 9g thread, or a mounting thread? ;)

Anyway, I was in Best buy in Cerritos, CA today and was looking at the 5010, and I hear someone talking and turn around and it was a Kuro rep talking with the manager, luckily the manager was called away, so I chatted quite a bit with the rep about the 9g. I said when do they hit the stores and he said "Late June", and I told him I was going to quote him here.

Also, I thought it was cool that it would also have the ability for "support" to calibrate your tv remotely. Not that any of you want a support tech to do it, you want to do it yourself, but for some of us laymen, well.

He also said the MSRP will be a good $1000 less than the 5010s, which puts that 50" right into my budget. Lucky I am so indecisive that I am sure I wouldn't have bought a TV by then. :D

bytor99999

However, if both TVs are in the same photo why would one TV show more detail than the other TV?


I take it you are referring to shadow detail when both TVs are in the same image with both TVs showing the same image, however one is a little brighter and the other a little darker.

Here is one reason of several factors that can effect what you are seeing in the picture.

In the case of one of the TVs not showing as much shadow detail as the other...IF the camera (film or digital) was set to expose images using a "light meter" and the camera was set for auto exposer, all the light meter can do is measure the light as a whole as a average as 18% grey. The camera electronics takes that measurement and sets an exposer for what it assumes is a "average lit subject". An average subject may include an outdoor scene with green grass, blue sky and the subject of the scene being probably a person wearing different color clothing. Forget about the fact that the photographer (if you can call him or her that) may in fact be trying to take a picture in an all dark area or mostly white area...it does not matter to the light meter because in the end, the camera will take the reading as an average of all the light values and recommend exposer settings to the camera so that the over all exposer is on average a 18% grey. If everything being photographed is mostly white, the results would be a gray, and if the overall image to be photographed is dark or black, the resulting image would also be gray. If the "photographer" knew what he/she was doing, they could compensate the camera to capture the "correct" exposer. However as anyone who knows about photography, there really is no "correct" exposer as many images can be captured that may not be in fact "normaly" exposed, and for reasons that are very important for the photographer.

In the case of the two monitors and assuming the photographer was using a simple point and shoot digital camera (with a very limited contrast ratio) and set to auto exposer, the light meter simply read an average of the REFLECTED light that coming from the two TVs and made an exposer suggestion to the camera. The meter could have been mislead because of one TV being brighter than the other and made an exposer based on the brighter set making the other set look dark or too dark.

Not only that, you have to remember that the digital sensor has a very limited dynamic range as far as being able to record the brightest whites and the darkest darks AT THE SAME TIME. It can only expose "correctly" for either the bright scene (and loose the details in the darkest darks) or the dark scene (and loose some of the details in the brightest parts of the whites)

Ok DNICE,

I have to submit.

Is the 5x darker levels hardware or software based? If it is hardware based please delineate 8g and 9g.

If it is software based how does software in the 9g make i darker?

Paul

After reading several posts here I wonder why people are placing pre-orders instead of waiting to see how the 9Gs turn out. Will the price go up once the 5020/6020s show up? If so, I would place my pre-order right now. Sponsors pl comment. I don't believe Pioneed would degrade 9G over 8G in any shape or form.

OK.....I have another thought on the "settings" issue.

If you look at the 6020 PDF Brochure (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=110511&d=1210903495), Pioneer actually lists these under "Video Processing Technology" features.

It seems to me that Pioneer is actually bragging about this, and in no way hiding it.

Like D-Nice said earlier....maybe they "nailed it"!! ;)

I'm sticking with my 6020 pre-order.

On another note, D-Nice, will you be able to review these sets before they are released to the public?

I hear what you are saying, the only thing that puzzles me is the pics on engadget were with both TVs in the same pic. And when I say puzzled I'm only referring to details. Issues like color reproduction I totally understand.

However, if both TVs are in the same photo why would one TV show more detail than the other TV? Again I'm only referring to the amount of detail being shown (which should rule out the type of monitor I'm using when specifically only comparing the two in the same photo to see which one shows more). If that makes any sense.

If you're talking about the picture I think you are (the one with the flowers), then you can't really judge for "black crush" (that's what this is about, right?). Even if the pictures were taken with the same (crappy, probably point-and-shoot) camera, the shutter might have not been open long enough to capture the darkest detail.

There is no way to tell either way from such a picture. It's just a limitation of the camera, or maybe the processing (I think the camera), which seems to have put out a picture with less dynamic range than the Kuro 9G TV, since the black on the TV is totally black, but still the flower image is clipped (unless it was shown that way on the TVs, which I doubt). So, if they'd used a faster shutter speed, you'd see even more "black crush" but it doesn't mean the dark details weren't there. If they'd used a longer shutter speed, you might have seen the missing dark detail, but the 8G's background would have looked a lighter gray, and the flower even more clipped. It's difficult when the camera has less DR than the subject at hand.

I’ve been trying to keep up with this thread, but it’s possible I may have missed this…but does anyone have any updated info as to when the 141FD Signatures may actually start showing up? Robert?…D-Nice?

The reason I ask is that I’m in the process of getting quotes from a couple of different integrator/installers in my area. So far, I’ve had Tweeter and a local “high-end” type integrator come out. And, of course, even though my checkbook says I shouldn’t, I really like the local high-end guy’s ideas (he’s still working up quotes…gulp!)

The high-end guy is suggesting I go with the 141FD Signature (yes, he’s an authorized dealer), but thought the 151FD is a good choice as well. However, he’s saying the 141FD probably won’t begin showing up until November. He said the 151FD’s would probably be late August…maybe September.

Tweeter is telling me (still) that my order for the 151FD should be in at the end of June, but they have no information on the 141FD. I’m ambivalent between the two models at this point. However, November is too far into football season!:p

I would imagine the larger chains get the earliest allocations, but how much later do the smaller independent dealers start getting their allocation? It would seem the distributors would want to try to keep the smaller dealers in business as well as the chains…but I have no clue as to how that works.

Bumbity....

So, judging from a few posts above...it's looking like the small dealer can expect August for the 151.

What about the Signature 141FD? Anyone hear an update on when these might appear? Is November, as my local guy said above, a realistic time frame?

NOV sounds about right, waiting to get more feedback. Robert would you agree?

Bumbity....

So, judging from a few posts above...it's looking like the small dealer can expect August for the 151.

What about the Signature 141FD? Anyone hear an update on when these might appear? Is November, as my local guy said above, a realistic time frame?In Charelston....Mid August for the 151 and October for the 141.

In Charelston....Mid August for the 151 and October for the 141.

What if you get one from CA? lol

I take it you are referring to shadow detail when both TVs are in the same image with both TVs showing the same image, however one is a little brighter and the other a little darker.

Here is one reason of several factors that can effect what you are seeing in the picture.

In the case of one of the TVs not showing as much shadow detail as the other...IF the camera (film or digital) was set to expose images using a "light meter" and the camera was set for auto exposer, all the light meter can do is measure the light as a whole as a average as 50% grey. The camera electronics takes that measurement and sets an exposer for what it assumes is a "average lit subject". An average subject may include an outdoor scene with green grass, blue sky and the subject of the scene being probably a person wearing different color clothing. Forget about the fact that the photographer (if you can call him or her that) may in fact be trying to take a picture in an all dark area or mostly white area...it does not matter to the light meter because in the end, the camera will take the reading as an average of all the light values and recommend exposer settings to the camera so that the over all exposer is on average a 50% grey. If everything is mostly white in the image, the results would be a gray, and if the overall image is dark or black, the resulting image would also be gray. If the "photographer" knew what he/she was doing, they could compensate the camera to capture the "correct" exposer. However as anyone who knows about photography, there really is no "correct" exposer as many images can be captured that may not be in fact "normaly" exposed, and for reasons that are very important for the photographer.

In the case of the two monitors and assuming the photographer was using a simple point and shoot digital camera (with a very limited contrast ratio) and set to auto exposer, the light meter simply read an average of the REFLECTED light that coming from the two TVs and made an exposer. The meter could have been mislead because of one TV being brighter than the other and made an "average" exposer based on the brighter set making the other set look dark or too dark.
I don't think they used full auto. While it was probably a point-and-shoot, I don't think the Engadget fellow geeks are that inexperienced, especially when they do exactly that for a living. Simple auto exposure would have yielded a lighter image without any black, and more clipped images on the TVs. The difference of the "blackness" of each TV in this case is negligible for the metering. Possibly they just used semi-auto with exposure compensation, or manual. Most probably they took many pictures and chose the best. In any case, they clearly knew to turn off the flash too!:D

Also, modern digital cameras and light meters have much more complex metering algorithms than just average, but for most control probably spot metering (not average) is probably best. I can get away with face-detection metering and AF with my Canon G9 just fine for people pics.

Not only that, you have to remember that the digital sensor has a very limited dynamic range as far as being able to record the brightest whites and the darkest darks AT THE SAME TIME. It can only expose "correctly" for either the bright scene (and loose the details in the darkest darks) or the dark scene (and loose some of the details in the brightest parts of the whites)

I agree completely here.

OK.....I have another thought on the "settings" issue.

If you look at the 6020 [URL="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=110511&d=1210903495"]On another note, D-Nice, will you be able to review these sets before they are released to the public?
Working on it.

What if you get one from CA? lolJuly for the 151 and September for the 141

I found this over in Blu-Ray players forum regarding Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate. What are some Blu-Ray movies where you can see the downfall of 3:2 pulldown?



Some Positive comments about the new Pioneer Plasma displays:

I am glad to hear that the new 9th generation Pioneer Plasmas will have 5X deeper black levels compared to the discontinued 8th generation Pioneer Kuro’s. Of course we will need to wait for a professional review to see how much better quality picture the 9th generation Kuro’s really are. When comparing last years top of the line 60 inch Elite to this year’s 60 inch Elite one will soon discover that not only is this year’s Kuro in theory a better quality picture but also Pioneer was able to do it at $1,000 cheaper. The PDP-150FD list price was $7,500 and the new PDP-151FD is only $6,500. This will make some consumers happy.

Negative comments about the new Pioneer Plasma displays:

It is great consumers can purchase a 5X deeper black Pioneer Plasma at a cheaper price. The $1,000 cheaper price on the Elite 60 inch comes at a price. Pioneer to cut costs eliminated features from its 2008 Kuro line. The first feature that is missing from the new 2008 Kuro displays is the one way cable card technology. On the 2007 models one could use the built in tuner in the Pioneer and subscribe to premium movie channels without the need to rent a external cable box. Most other manufactories have eliminated the cable card from their product also. One problem with the one way cable card technology is that one still needed a cable box for Video on demand and PPV movies. There is a two way cable card technology available now but all display manufactories so far have decided not to include 2 way QAM tuners with cable card technology and only a few companies still offer one way cable card slots. Cable card features over the years has been known to add several hundred dollars to the cost of a display when the technology was first introduced. Hopefully in the future manufactories will move to a cheaper better two way software downloadable version that is integrated in displays.
Another cost-cutting feature removed from the 2008 Kuro line is the fact they now only have 2 tuners instead of 3. Last years Kuro line had 1 ATSC/QAM tuner with 2 NTSC tuners. This years Kuro has 1 ATSC/QAM tuner and 1 NTSC tuner. Of course on Feb 17th 2009 all over the air broadcasts are switching to ATSC and the NTSC tuner for people that do not have cable TV will not be a issue. The NTSC tuner will still be used on some cable systems for a few more years until cable companies switch to 100% QAM. So if you are really into Picture and Picture there is now only two tuners instead of three tuners.
Dropping the cable card and one NTSC tuner are minor issues for me. The picture quality is the most important thing I am concerned about. One low cost feature that is missing that could not have cost more than $30 is the fact that the built in RF antenna/cable A/B switch on the new Pioneer Plasmas is eliminated. Instead of 2 RF inputs this years models only have one RF input. On last year’s 2007 Kuro models there was a built in RF A/B switch that allows one to switch between cable TV and an outdoor/indoor antenna. This small low cost feature really bothers me. Of course most people watch either satellite or cable TV and do not bother with a outdoor antenna. Local HD broadcasts using an indoor/outdoor antenna usually is better quality then what the satellite and cable company provide. Now this years Kuro owners that have both cable TV without the cable box and a indoor/outdoor antenna will need to purchase a remote control RF A/B switch at Radio Shack for around $40. I wish manufactories would not eliminate low cost features that are important to some people.
Another feature that is missing this year is the free interactive on screen TV guide. For those that rent a cable box or subscribe to satellite TV this is not a big issue. That was just a few of the things I noticed that is missing from this years Kuro line. If one connects a cable box or satellite receiver to the display one will not notice most of these features are missing. Since I watch mostly BLU-RAY’s I do not rent or own a satellite receiver or cable box.
Another thing that is missing is last years model had 2 component video inputs but this year there is only 1 component input. All the other inputs like 4 HDMI, 3 composite, and 1 S-Video are exactly the same compared to last years model. Many years ago it use to be that for every composite video input there was also one S-Video jack per composite video jack. For example the Pioneer Kuro has 3 composite video jacks for legacy 480I equipment but it only has 1 S-Video jack. It would be nice to have a shared S-Video jack on each one of those 3 composite video jacks. There are people that still own legacy S-VHS machines and other equipment that would like to see 3 S-Video inputs that are shared with 3 composite inputs. It seems to be the tread on all brands and models of TV’s to either eliminate the legacy 480I S-Video jack or to only include one S-Video jack.
This years Ethernet connection on the Elite Kuro is still only 100Mbps per second. It would have been ideal to have a 1000Mbps Ethernet connection for those that have gigabyte wired home networks.

I actually wish Pioneer would raise the cost $1,000 on the Plasmas and bring back some neat feature that I like. It appear that this years model is not SimplayHD certified also. Over all most consumers will prefer the lower price with less features compared to last years models.

** All above comparisons were made using the above Pioneer official spec sheets for the 9th generation models. My only hope is that the spec sheets are wrong and when the final product is released that some of the features I like on the 8th generation 2007 models will still be on the 9th generation Pioneer 2008 models. **

NOV sounds about right, waiting to get more feedback. Robert would you agree?

In Charelston....Mid August for the 151 and October for the 141.
Thanks, guys...this will help. I realize there's always the chance of slippage, which is perhaps why my local guy is giving himself some lattitude with his timeframes. The 141FD just might be worth the wait...we'll see. Thanks again.

After reading several posts here I wonder why people are placing pre-orders instead of waiting to see how the 9Gs turn out. Will the price go up once the 5020/6020s show up? If so, I would place my pre-order right now. Sponsors pl comment. I don't believe Pioneed would degrade 9G over 8G in any shape or form.

I don't think its a price issue. From what I hear, there were some shortages last year. So, I think the pre-order people, myself included, just want to guarantee that we get one. Plus, the faster you get it, the more time you have to enjoy it before the 10 g hype hits you with buyer's remorse.

Thanks Thebarnman and Andy o on your photography insight and explanations. Obviously there is more to this than what I had realized :).

Does any one know if the 10g generation will be the thin model they at ces I think.

Bottom line: Don't judge a TV based on photographs.

Wow that scares me. Im currently debating replacing my XBR1 SXRD with a 60" 9g. If there is a loss of detail that is noticeable then Im not buying. No way. The set I own now is a 50" and my opinion is that I shouldnt percieve a loss in detail since I will be getting 10 more inches and true 1080p. That would be a dream to get a comparison upon release.

I think people sometimes take my complaints about the Kuro more than what I am intending to say. I've seen more details in the SXRD, but if I were you I'd upgrade to a Kuro in a heartbeat over the SXRD. It can display more details from my experience and display a full white screen better, but barring that you'll be blown away with how much better the Kuro looks IMO.

I found this over in Blu-Ray players forum regarding Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate. What are some Blu-Ray movies where you can see the downfall of 3:2 pulldown?



Some Positive comments about the new Pioneer Plasma displays:

I am glad to hear that the new 9th generation Pioneer Plasmas will have 5X deeper black levels compared to the discontinued 8th generation Pioneer Kuro’s. Of course we will need to wait for a professional review to see how much better quality picture the 9th generation Kuro’s really are. When comparing last years top of the line 60 inch Elite to this year’s 60 inch Elite one will soon discover that not only is this year’s Kuro in theory a better quality picture but also Pioneer was able to do it at $1,000 cheaper. The PDP-150FD list price was $7,500 and the new PDP-151FD is only $6,500. This will make some consumers happy.

Negative comments about the new Pioneer Plasma displays:

It is great consumers can purchase a 5X deeper black Pioneer Plasma at a cheaper price. The $1,000 cheaper price on the Elite 60 inch comes at a price. Pioneer to cut costs eliminated features from its 2008 Kuro line. The first feature that is missing from the new 2008 Kuro displays is the one way cable card technology. On the 2007 models one could use the built in tuner in the Pioneer and subscribe to premium movie channels without the need to rent a external cable box. Most other manufactories have eliminated the cable card from their product also. One problem with the one way cable card technology is that one still needed a cable box for Video on demand and PPV movies. There is a two way cable card technology available now but all display manufactories so far have decided not to include 2 way QAM tuners with cable card technology and only a few companies still offer one way cable card slots. Cable card features over the years has been known to add several hundred dollars to the cost of a display when the technology was first introduced. Hopefully in the future manufactories will move to a cheaper better two way software downloadable version that is integrated in displays.
Another cost-cutting feature removed from the 2008 Kuro line is the fact they now only have 2 tuners instead of 3. Last years Kuro line had 1 ATSC/QAM tuner with 2 NTSC tuners. This years Kuro has 1 ATSC/QAM tuner and 1 NTSC tuner. Of course on Feb 17th 2009 all over the air broadcasts are switching to ATSC and the NTSC tuner for people that do not have cable TV will not be a issue. The NTSC tuner will still be used on some cable systems for a few more years until cable companies switch to 100% QAM. So if you are really into Picture and Picture there is now only two tuners instead of three tuners.
Dropping the cable card and one NTSC tuner are minor issues for me. The picture quality is the most important thing I am concerned about. One low cost feature that is missing that could not have cost more than $30 is the fact that the built in RF antenna/cable A/B switch on the new Pioneer Plasmas is eliminated. Instead of 2 RF inputs this years models only have one RF input. On last year’s 2007 Kuro models there was a built in RF A/B switch that allows one to switch between cable TV and an outdoor/indoor antenna. This small low cost feature really bothers me. Of course most people watch either satellite or cable TV and do not bother with a outdoor antenna. Local HD broadcasts using an indoor/outdoor antenna usually is better quality then what the satellite and cable company provide. Now this years Kuro owners that have both cable TV without the cable box and a indoor/outdoor antenna will need to purchase a remote control RF A/B switch at Radio Shack for around $40. I wish manufactories would not eliminate low cost features that are important to some people.
Another feature that is missing this year is the free interactive on screen TV guide. For those that rent a cable box or subscribe to satellite TV this is not a big issue. That was just a few of the things I noticed that is missing from this years Kuro line. If one connects a cable box or satellite receiver to the display one will not notice most of these features are missing. Since I watch mostly BLU-RAY’s I do not rent or own a satellite receiver or cable box.
Another thing that is missing is last years model had 2 component video inputs but this year there is only 1 component input. All the other inputs like 4 HDMI, 3 composite, and 1 S-Video are exactly the same compared to last years model. Many years ago it use to be that for every composite video input there was also one S-Video jack per composite video jack. For example the Pioneer Kuro has 3 composite video jacks for legacy 480I equipment but it only has 1 S-Video jack. It would be nice to have a shared S-Video jack on each one of those 3 composite video jacks. There are people that still own legacy S-VHS machines and other equipment that would like to see 3 S-Video inputs that are shared with 3 composite inputs. It seems to be the tread on all brands and models of TV’s to either eliminate the legacy 480I S-Video jack or to only include one S-Video jack.
This years Ethernet connection on the Elite Kuro is still only 100Mbps per second. It would have been ideal to have a 1000Mbps Ethernet connection for those that have gigabyte wired home networks.

I actually wish Pioneer would raise the cost $1,000 on the Plasmas and bring back some neat feature that I like. It appear that this years model is not SimplayHD certified also. Over all most consumers will prefer the lower price with less features compared to last years models.

** All above comparisons were made using the above Pioneer official spec sheets for the 9th generation models. My only hope is that the spec sheets are wrong and when the final product is released that some of the features I like on the 8th generation 2007 models will still be on the 9th generation Pioneer 2008 models. **

Hmm here in europa there comes two versions of 5090 and 6090, the one with HD functions cost $1000 more or something. That has all included

I concur. I was in a Best Buy / Magnolia dealer near the Portland Airport today and their system did not have the 151FD in it yet and the msrp of the 150FD that they had on display was marked at standard msrp still.

Why would you think they would have it for less? I understand that you are un-intelligent....but come on, this is a major retailer. The percentile of people that "A" understand what is coming, and "B" know that it will be cheaper, is alot smaller than the group on this message board. Do you have any idea how retail works? Sounds like you dont. You need to wake up and realize that 95% of the public are slow and thats what retail is tailored to. Wake up.....:rolleyes:

Why would you think they would have it for less? I understand that you are un-intelligent....but come on, this is a major retailer. The percentile of people that "A" understand what is coming, and "B" know that it will be cheaper, is alot smaller than the group on this message board. Do you have any idea how retail works? Sounds like you dont. You need to wake up and realize that 95% of the public are slow and thats what retail is tailored to. Wake up.....:rolleyes:


Hey new guy, try toning down the attitude a little bit. That's a damn rude post.

Does any one know if the 10g generation will be the thin model they at ces I think.It will not be. The 10g will incorporate 5 Lumen tech, while the 11g (or maybe hinted at 10.5g possibly) will have 10 lumen tech and will be the 9mm thick model. Any of these things can easily change, so I wouldn't quote me on this.:cool:

giper

I posted earlier about the lack of two antenna ports/tuners. While its a minimal feature that most here may not use or consider worth while it just seems options are being taken away. I for one will miss it, not tv guide which screwed up my 1140. While the price is getting better I think the features should also get better as well. Technology.

Wow that scares me. Im currently debating replacing my XBR1 SXRD with a 60" 9g. If there is a loss of detail that is noticeable then Im not buying. No way. The set I own now is a 50" and my opinion is that I shouldnt percieve a loss in detail since I will be getting 10 more inches and true 1080p. That would be a dream to get a comparison upon release.

I have the KDSR60XBR1. The PDP-5080HD (last years non-elite, Non-1080p kuro) that I had has a much better picture than my SXRD. I would trade my XBR1, my Phillips 50 inch plasma, my Dell computer monitor, and my Sony CRT all for 1 6020 or pro-151fd. no joke.
SXRD is nice but the Kuro is still master.

Hey new guy, try toning down the attitude a little bit. That's a damn rude post.

+1

Interesting use of numbers. Ok, I'm not a math expert!

What does going from 0.001fL to 0 amount to?

100%?

Would that make the G10s 2x more black than the G9s?

2X is a lot, however I'm betting that the difference will be even less than going from G8 to G9.

Anyway, I know I'm going to be happy with my G9 Elite.

It's simple math guys. A 400% improvement starting from a larger number is much more significant than the same '400%' improvement from a smaller number. Thus, if you expressed a 400% improvement in black level from a 6g Pioneer panel (with much higher black levels), that would result in a much more visible drop in black levels than that same 400% improvement going from an 8g to a 9g.

Hey new guy, try toning down the attitude a little bit. That's a damn rude post.

Very true! Also, different Best Buy stores don't all have the same price, why that is, I don't know. When the 7G Pro-FHD1 was still there, one place had it for the full $10,000 MSRP. Another 50 miles away had it for $7,599. The first place still had it for $10,000 when the new 8G 60" Elite was only $7,599. The second place had both the FHD1 and 60" 8G for the same price!

Another thing, if you ask Best Buy, even on the first day something comes out, you can easily get ~10%-15% off MSRP, even if listed as selling for MSRP at Best Buy, you just need to ask and bitch for 20 minutes or so. Best Buy is like a car salesman. You can talk them down.

The Best Buy salesman even tried to convince me the 60" 8G Elite with a tuner, and the FHD1 50" with no tuner was a "more elite" model, so it still costs more, because it's better quality!