Giper

Nice post summarizing the features lost with the 9Gs.

Cable Card eliminated
NTSC tuners reduced by 1 (didn't think there were two of these)
RF inputs reduced by 1
Component Inputs reduced by 1
On Screen TV Guide eliminated

Were these for both the Elites and Non-Elites?

I have done my homework, but having to make choices is tough :(

After falling in love with the 6010's 'Kuro'-ness, all I was doing was waiting for it's price to drop (but it never did) ... now the new 9G 6020 comes out with no Cable Card, but even better 'blacks' ... but this forum foretells the 10G will have a bigger screen with perfect blacks and the next Blu-ray will be 2.0 :confused:

As I see it, here are my options:

1) get the 6020 plus a PS3 to play Blu-ray, and use my current 5.1 receiver ... and fully upgrade next year

2) get the 6020 plus the BDP-51FD Blu-ray and the VSX-01TXH 7.1 receiver ... and wait a couple years

3) get the 151 plus the BPD-05FD Blu-ray and the SC-07 7.1 receiver ... and stop reading this board :p

4) put off buying and read this board forever (affectionately know as 'Pulling a Vashti' :eek:)

Thoughts?

P.S. if the percentage off MSRP was the same for Elites as non-Elites, I would do option 3 ... since it seems not to be, option 1 is where I am leaning

P.P.S. feel free to pm me ... I don't want to 'personalize' this thread

I'm very much looking forward to the 9Gs. I'm grateful we have so many people here that will help with our buying decisions.

Wow that scares me. Im currently debating replacing my XBR1 SXRD with a 60" 9g. If there is a loss of detail that is noticeable then Im not buying. No way.

See them for yourself. Everyone here has their own biases and ideas and Westa is surely no exception. Westa demands blinding whites and no plasma will do that and thus he will not get the 'wow' factor he wants from a plasma...we all know that by now (he's told us that 1,000 times). As for detail, there is endless detail in the current crop of 1080p Pioneers. I can't imagine that most people wouldn't get the 'wow' factor with a properly adjusted Kuro panel, 8g or 9g. Everyone that sees mine goes 'wow'. ;)

giper

I posted earlier about the lack of two antenna ports/tuners. While its a minimal feature that most here may not use or consider worth while it just seems options are being taken away. I for one will miss it, not tv guide which screwed up my 1140. While the price is getting better I think the features should also get better as well. Technology.

2 RF inputs was a big deal for me when I bought my Panny plasma, as I had standard cable on one input and OTA antenna on the other. I had to hurry up and buy the previous year closeout model, as the replacement dropped the second RF input. Less of an issue now for me, because I have OTA connected to my satellite receiver, and cable TV connected to the RF input (yes, I have all three: cable (cheap basic), satellite (HD and Big Ten Network), and OTA (HD locals). But I know what you are saying.

Bottom line: Don't judge a TV based on photographs.

I've heard that somewhere before. :D

I have the KDSR60XBR1. The PDP-5080HD (last years non-elite, Non-1080p kuro) that I had has a much better picture than my SXRD. I would trade my XBR1, my Phillips 50 inch plasma, my Dell computer monitor, and my Sony CRT all for 1 6020 or pro-151fd. no joke.
SXRD is nice but the Kuro is still master.

And that's why I said Westa is a huge LCD fan and with his predispositions, he will not find a plasma he likes better than a blazingly bright LCD. However most others will recognize the Pioneer Kuros for what they are, the best flat panels out there.

And that's why I said Westa is a huge LCD fan and with his predispositions, he will not find a plasma he likes better than a blazingly bright LCD. However most others will recognize the Pioneer Kuros for what they are, the best flat panels out there.

Then why did he get an SXRD RPTV? That's in no way, shape or form brighter than any plasma!

Geordon

I use one for ota ant the other for straight cable so my daughter will not have to use my 7.1 system. I got rid of my dtv system so wireless a/b may be in my future. For me the elite is the way to go but loosing features for this price is frustrating.

Wow that scares me. Im currently debating replacing my XBR1 SXRD with a 60" 9g. If there is a loss of detail that is noticeable then Im not buying. No way. The set I own now is a 50" and my opinion is that I shouldnt percieve a loss in detail since I will be getting 10 more inches and true 1080p. That would be a dream to get a comparison upon release.I was considering the same - replacing my XBR1 SXRD with a 9G. Today I took a look at a Pro-150FD (8G Elite) in a high-end audio/video store in a very dark setting. The salesperson said the set was at default out-of-the-box settings. He played a clip of one of the Spiderman movies on Blu-Ray. The black crush was so horrendous I really wondered if the set was at out-of-the-box settings. Unfortunately, I didn't have enough time to inspect the settings. In any case, if the picture quality I saw today is what can be expected from a Pioneer then I'll stick with the XBR1 for now. Perhaps I should try a Pioneer at another store.

My only complaint is that we no longer get a 42", which is what I wanted for my bedroom (frowntown). I was going to buy the 8g Elite, guess I'll wait and just get the 50" (which is ridiculously big for the bedroom. Unless...they drop the price on the 8g so much that I can't refuse! :-D

how much feet is the distince ?nervmind it i think its not the fact that its close distince or far but the overwhelming fact that you feel a 50" is not proper in a bedroom am i not right? im on my living room 7-9ft on 42 "
and one of our members is going on 8ft to a 60"


My only complaint is that we no longer get a 42", which is what I wanted for my bedroom (frowntown). I was going to buy the 8g Elite, guess I'll wait and just get the 50" (which is ridiculously big for the bedroom. Unless...they drop the price on the 8g so much that I can't refuse! :-D

how much feet is the distince ?nervmind it i think its not the fact that its close distince or far but the overwhelming fact that you feel a 50" is not proper in a bedroom am i not right? im on my living room 7-9ft on 42 "
and one of our members is going on 8ft to a 60"

Aprox. 8'-10' would be ideal viewing distance for a 60" display. For a 50"er, it's about 6'-8', which would be fine in most master bedrooms.

I don't think its a price issue. From what I hear, there were some shortages last year. So, I think the pre-order people, myself included, just want to guarantee that we get one. Plus, the faster you get it, the more time you have to enjoy it before the 10 g hype hits you with buyer's remorse.

I'm glad I have my pre-order in as I would not want to wait too much longer or miss the boat. My dealer mentioned about the supplies not arriving till much later in the year after the first shipments.

I'm not going to let the 10G hit me with buyer's remorse...at least not too much remorse. Here's the area where I may get hit...there's a very strong chance that the size will be bigger. I really wanted something in the range of 70" or bigger, however even at 60", I'm sure I'll be "ok" with it till I upgrade again...probably within about five to seven years. By then, I feel that any kinks that might result from having a bigger screen, working with a different company for the glass manufacturing will be resolved, and for Pioneer to learn from experience what the new technology can provide and how to exploit it in future generations.

When I bought my PRO520HD (53 incher) some years back, I knew one day I would upgrade to something better, probably at about the same cost with superior picture improvements. Some might argue that my HD rear projection CRT have better blacks, however from everything I'm reading, the 9Gs will probably be just as good and better in many different ways.

Here's the issue that bugged me the most...OVERSCAN. It's really bad on the PRO520HD. With 480i/p programming, it's within a very normal range of about 3-5% or so. With HD, it's 10-12%! Not only that, it's shifted up and to the right...so I'm missing quite a bit.

Here's the kicker, with the overscan of my current 53 inch display, I would think that the image size I'm currently viewing is more like what one would see on a 57 inch set because of the zoom effect that overscan brings to the table. So in reality, I'm only getting about three more inches of enlargement with the PRO151FD, however that's not too bad with 0 overscan! In addition, no convergence issues, no lens issues that could get out of focus and or dusty, resolution that's not a full 1920x1080, bad handling of 720p signals, brightness and color that changes depending on where I'm sitting, ISF settings that drift a lot, and a big huge boxy box! I also feel that my PRO520HD has some black crush, however the brightness might be too low based on the ISF calibration I paid for.

Ok, maybe I won't be able to put my big center channel speaker on the top of my PRO151FD, though that's the only thing I think I'll miss, and I'm sure I can deal with it!

I have done my homework, but having to make choices is tough :(

After falling in love with the 6010's 'Kuro'-ness, all I was doing was waiting for it's price to drop (but it never did) ... now the new 9G 6020 comes out with no Cable Card, but even better 'blacks' ... but this forum foretells the 10G will have a bigger screen with perfect blacks and the next Blu-ray will be 2.0 :confused:

As I see it, here are my options:

1) get the 6020 plus a PS3 to play Blu-ray, and use my current 5.1 receiver ... and fully upgrade next year

2) get the 6020 plus the BDP-51FD Blu-ray and the VSX-01TXH 7.1 receiver ... and wait a couple years

3) get the 151 plus the BPD-05FD Blu-ray and the SC-07 7.1 receiver ... and stop reading this board :p

4) put off buying and read this board forever (affectionately know as 'Pulling a Vashti' :eek:)

Thoughts?

P.S. if the percentage off MSRP was the same for Elites as non-Elites, I would do option 3 ... since it seems not to be, option 1 is where I am leaning

P.P.S. feel free to pm me ... I don't want to 'personalize' this thread

I happen to be doing #3 myself, except I'm going to be waiting on Pioneer's 2.0 Blu-ray player when it comes out.

Can you believe it? I still don't have a Blu-ray player! However, I do have a GREAT Blu-ray collection building up!!!!

Why would you think they would have it for less? I understand that you are un-intelligent....but come on, this is a major retailer. The percentile of people that "A" understand what is coming, and "B" know that it will be cheaper, is alot smaller than the group on this message board. Do you have any idea how retail works? Sounds like you dont. You need to wake up and realize that 95% of the public are slow and thats what retail is tailored to. Wake up.....:rolleyes:

Why would someone think a retailer would have it for less??? Because indeed many retailers do have them for less. In spite of your delusions of expertise in retailing, it is very common practice. Get some facts and some manners.

I found this over in Blu-Ray players forum regarding Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate. What are some Blu-Ray movies where you can see the downfall of 3:2 pulldown?

I'm not sure of your question. Maybe you can re-word it? If it's what I'm thinking, I'm under the impression that most movies today are recorded onto the film format at 24fps. Video is generally standardized at 30fps. So just about all movies recorded on film or maybe about 98% or higher of all movies recorded in the last 70 years or so using the 35mm format have been recorded using that frame rate.

To answer your question, probably about 98% of all movies shown on a regular TV is where you will see the "downfall of 3:2 pulldown".

If anyone can help or clarify my answer, please do!

I'm not sure of your question. Maybe you can re-word it? If it's what I'm thinking, I'm under the impression that most movies today are recorded onto the film format at 24fps. Video is generally standardized at 30fps. So just about all movies recorded on film or maybe about 98% or higher of all movies recorded in the last 70 years or so using the 35mm format have been recorded using that frame rate.

To answer your question, probably about 98% of all movies shown on a regular TV is where you will see the "downfall of 3:2 pulldown".

If anyone can help or clarify my answer, please do!

I think the question he was asking was "which movies clearly show the telecine judder caused by 3:2 pulldown?"

In Europe first recives the 9g is the same at 8g... There is no diferents, only diference is a aluminium pilot. Fuc*k Pioneer :mad:

Does anyone have the answer to how the 9Gs display these different video formats when fed these signals natively?

On Digital Video Essentials Blu-ray, I noticed there are samples with the above formats and frame rates.


I would think that the

A: 1080p/24 is shown at 1080p/72?
B: 720p/24 is converted and shown at 1080p/72?

How is 720p/60 displayed?


I think FOX Football is also shown at 720p/60. Would it be converted to 1080p/60?


And what happens to video shot at
480i/30
720p/30

CBS Football is shot and transmitted at 1080i/30. Does the Kuro display it at 1080p/60?


Thanks!

I think the question he was asking was "which movies clearly show the telecine judder caused by 3:2 pulldown?"

Oh, I THINK this may be the answer...

Most action films where there's lots of panning (fast and slow) and or horizontal or vertical movement of the camera is where you would see judder.

Or movies where the camera is still and there are people walking by.


The "judder" is caused by these movements because of the slow frame rate of 24fps. Faster frame rates cut down on these "judder" type distortions. It's the amount of change from frame to frame in moving objects when shot at slow frame rates. It can be seen in movie theaters, and shows up differently in other ways when transferred onto video (30fps) that adds to the distortion.

When one views FOX football at 720p/60, the distortion or "judder" is even less.

If you truly worried about preset NR features, don't buy a 9G.
You mean: Don't buy a non-Elite 9G, right?

Just don't bitch and complain later when it is proven that Pioneer has implement the hardcoding correctly and the xx20 series is backordered.
The only correct hardcoded setting is "off".

Does anyone have the answer to how the 9Gs display these different video formats when fed these signals natively?

On Digital Video Essentials Blu-ray, I noticed there are samples with the above formats and frame rates.


I would think that the

A: 1080p/24 is shown at 1080p/72?Yes, if you select Pure Cinema Advanced.(it might do it automatically)
B: 720p/24 is converted and shown at 1080p/72?I don't think the Pioneers accept a 720p/24 signal.

How is 720p/60 displayed?It's scaled up to 1080p/60.


I think FOX Football is also shown at 720p/60. Would it be converted to 1080p/60?Yes.


And what happens to video shot at
480i/30
720p/30
Again, scaled up to 1080p/60. 480i can be displayed at 1080p/72 if you select Pure Cinema Advanced.
CBS Football is shot and transmitted at 1080i/30. Does the Kuro display it at 1080p/60?Everything is displayed at 1080p/60 or 1080p/72.


Thanks!

:)

:)

I don't think the Pioneers accept a 720p/24 signal.

And what happens to video shot at
480i/30
720p/30
Again, scaled up to 1080p/60. 480i can be displayed at 1080p/72 if you select Pure Cinema Advanced.

Interesting that the Pioneer may not accept a 720p/24 signal. Not that it matters since I don't know of any station that transmits that type of signal. On the DVE Blu-ray, it states there's some video at 720p/24. I wonder if they really mean a movie (at 24fps) recorded at 720p/30 that should be converted to 720p/24 or even 1080p/24?

Oh well, not that important...at least right now. I'll check in another forum for that.

You stated 480i/30 could be scaled up to 1080p/72. I would think that the 1080p/72 signal would only happen if the 480i/30 signal was a movie transferred to video.

Otherwise, it would probably scale it to 1080p/60.

Thanks for the info!

Aprox. 8'-10' would be ideal viewing distance for a 60" display. For a 50"er, it's about 6'-8', which would be fine in most master bedrooms.

Where do you get that? A 60" is only 52.3" wide. So ideal would be ~71" +/- 23" ( 6' +/- 2' ). A 50" is only 43.6" wide. So ideal would be ~60" +/- 19" ( 5' +/- 1.6'). Where the ideal is THX, the minus direction is closer to IMAX and the positive direction is closer to SMPTE. I personally think IMAX is better with my limit being ~0.83, or 44" away for 60" and 41" for 50". Your maxes assume a person has 20/15 vision like I do. 1080i/p is just 1.79x the viewing width for maximum visual acuity with a person who has 20/20 vision.

1 / ( ( tan ( 1/60 ) * 1920 ) = ~1.79x

"In humans, 20/20 vision is the ability to resolve a spatial pattern separated by a visual angle of one minute of arc."

On the DVE Blu-ray, it states there's some video at 720p/24. I wonder if they really mean a movie (at 24fps) recorded at 720p/30 that should be converted to 720p/24 or even 1080p/24?


Yes, there are 720p60 signals which are 24p. House on Fox for example is really 720p24 ( the actual show is 1080p24 :( but Fox only does 720p, boo! Good for sports 720p60, bad for 1080p24 original material. )

According to D-Nice, the 9G Elites using Advanced PureCinema mode activated can detect 3:2 cadence in 720p60 signals and display as 1920x1080p72 3:3.


720p24 isn't part of the SMPTE standard, and must be sent as 720p60 3:2 cadence.

ecoustics.com (http://www.ecoustics.com/tl/22315/) gives a simple way to calculate various viewing distances/TV sizes for 1080p, 16:9 Televisions.

If you know your viewing distance, and want to find the ideal TV size, measure your distance from the display in inches, and multiply by the following:

THX minimum display size, multiply by 0.55
SMPTE recommended display size, multiply by 0.60
THX maximum display size, multiply by 0.75

Obviously you can use the equation in reverse if you want to find out how far you should be sitting from a display you already know the size of. You just divide the size of the display by the given numbers (instead of multiplying), and the resulting # will be how many inches you should be sitting from your display.

So for a 10ft (120 inches) viewing distance, the ideal display size would be

THX Min: 120 x 0.55 = 66"
SMPTE: 120 x 0.60 = 72"
THX Max: 120 x 0.75 = 90"

Or in reverse, the ideal viewing distance for a 60" display:

THX Furthest: 60 / 0.55 = 109.1" and then Divide by 12 for feet = 9.1'
SMPTE: 60 / 0.60 = 100" then 100 / 12 = 8.3'
THX Closest: 60 / 0.75 = 80" then 80 / 12 = 6.7'

-Coggs

Where do you get that? A 60" is only 52.3" wide. So ideal would be ~71" +/- 23" ( 6' +/- 2' ). A 50" is only 43.6" wide. So ideal would be ~60" +/- 19" ( 5' +/- 1.6'). Where the ideal is THX, the minus direction is closer to IMAX and the positive direction is closer to SMPTE. I personally think IMAX is better with my limit being ~0.83, or 44" away for 60" and 41" for 50". Your maxes assume a person has 20/15 vision like I do. 1080i/p is just 1.79x the viewing width for maximum visual acuity with a person who has 20/20 vision.

1 / ( ( tan ( 1/60 ) * 1920 ) = ~1.79x

"In humans, 20/20 vision is the ability to resolve a spatial pattern separated by a visual angle of one minute of arc."

I am liking those numbers. I always thought the often-mentioned numbers are far too long a distance. Just from watching in my 25.5" monitor some blurays, I find it pretty good to sit at the same distance where I can read text in my PC comfortably, that is about 2 feet or even a bit less. So I just double that distance and take that into account when I plan on buying a big-screen TV (which will probably be next year anyway).

But that's just me. Ideally I'd like to have a 60 or a bit bigger, but really issues of cost and convenience come right up.

gregdpw, We use Peerless Industries SF670 and they work great for this panel.

-Robert

yeah would it be possible to find three studs with that mount? cuz the studs are mounted flat against the wall, so the bolts cant go that deep. i can only go 2 inches deep into the studs.

gregdpw, ^^ Yes, Pioneer's SF670 (http://www.*********************/Peerless%20SF670.htm) is designed to mount into three studs. You should be OK.

-Robert

In Charelston....Mid August for the 151 and October for the 141.

Yo D,

Is the BB Magnolia in Charleston at least getting the 111's in before mid- Aug?

Yo D,

Is the BB Magnolia in Charleston at least getting the 111's in before mid- Aug?Probably late July.

Probably late July.

Thanks. Hope late July is the case here since even the wife is longing to see the Kuro back in our living room SOONER rather than later :)

"According to D-Nice, the 9G Elites using Advanced PureCinema mode activated can detect 3:2 cadence in 720p60 signals and display as 1920x1080p72 3:3."

Is this true? Wouldn't that create a sync problem with the audio since you'd be adding another frame after every 5 frames?

"According to D-Nice, the 9G Elites using Advanced PureCinema mode activated can detect 3:2 cadence in 720p60 signals and display as 1920x1080p72 3:3."

Is this true? Wouldn't that create a sync problem with the audio since you'd be adding another frame after every 5 frames?And you don't think the panel will compensate for any sync issues??? :) Why would sync issues only happen with 720p/60?

Here's the issue that bugged me the most...OVERSCAN. It's really bad on the PRO520HD.

So in reality, I'm only getting about three more inches of enlargement with the PRO151FD, however that's not too bad with 0 overscan!


The overscan on the my Kuro is nearly zero. As a matter of fact, on occasion one can see a very small white line across the top. Others have attributed such an occurance to broadcasting errors by the local OTA. That white line has been said to result from encoded closed captioned information in the signal. I've also seen it on A&E on my Direct TV. The picture placement, however, can be adjusted for the A/V inputs but not for an OTA signal.

These Kuros have very minimal overscan - so you'll always catch all the info on that ESPN scroll bar.

gregdpw, ^^ Yes, Pioneer's SF670 (http://www.*********************/Peerless%20SF670.htm) is designed to mount into three studs. You should be OK.

-Robert

if i can only get two studs would that be ok?

Where do you get that? A 60" is only 52.3" wide.


I can't follow the math, but I do know that a 60" Pioneer panel is just shy of 58" wide (57 11/16).

Here's a question that has been bothering me for a while.

Suppose you have a poorly encoded DVD such that the 3:2 cadence is not consistent.
Will the PDP start bouncing between 60 Hz and 72 Hz?
Will this be visible?

Thanks.

Not trying to annoy you guys, but I couldn't find an answer to this question.

Thanks

I don't know what else to say. That's why I said we'll have to agree to disagree. My 60xbr1 shows a bit more details than my 6010 (which is calibrated with User Menu only settings) why I mentioned before I said it has crushed blacks. Did you spend time comparing both your sets or are you going by memory? Do you have a 10 series or an elite?

Here's a specific example I provided earlier:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13827018#post13827018

I promise you I am non-biased and if I were doing something wrong I would have no issues admitting it.

Elite, had them both in home for a short time doing A then B.
We can agree to disagree, but I think you should add to your posts that it is in your opinion....especially in a Pioneer only thread.

I read that post when you submitted it. I don't know what to say as it sounds just as oof now as it did then.
+8 or +9 to get the detail on a sxrd, sorry but that is not what I nor anyone else I know of sees.
I had mine at 0 brightness when doing the A then B.

Then why did he get an SXRD RPTV? That's in no way, shape or form brighter than any plasma!

Your guess is as good as mine, don't know why people make some of the choices they make.


Oh and do I really see people advocating sitting 6' from 50" and 60" screens??

I was considering the same - replacing my XBR1 SXRD with a 9G. Today I took a look at a Pro-150FD (8G Elite) in a high-end audio/video store in a very dark setting. The salesperson said the set was at default out-of-the-box settings. He played a clip of one of the Spiderman movies on Blu-Ray. The black crush was so horrendous I really wondered if the set was at out-of-the-box settings. Unfortunately, I didn't have enough time to inspect the settings. In any case, if the picture quality I saw today is what can be expected from a Pioneer then I'll stick with the XBR1 for now. Perhaps I should try a Pioneer at another store.

The experts around here tell me I have no idea what I am talking about, but the SXRD does show more detail in dark areas. But in no way would I say it's horrendous. Likely the TV was set in dynamic mode. Put it in User or standard, set gamma to +3, DRE off is recommended (i either use it off or on low), and set your brightness between 0 and +3 and tailor the rest to your likings.

I've had both an 8G and an XBR1 for a while and I can't imagine someone not being thrilled with the upgrade. The SXRD can look decent in a lighted environment but once lighting starts getting dimmer it's not even close. My suggestion to you if possible is to get it with a return policy and try it at home (just in case). I really don't think the SXRD will do it for you anymore afterwards :). EVERY TV has it's issues!!!

"According to D-Nice, the 9G Elites using Advanced PureCinema mode activated can detect 3:2 cadence in 720p60 signals and display as 1920x1080p72 3:3."

Is this true? Wouldn't that create a sync problem with the audio since you'd be adding another frame after every 5 frames?

No, not really. Remember that at 72 Hz (which is the display rate with Advanced Pure Cinema detecting a 24p original source), the screen is refreshing at 72 frames PER SECOND. Though there are 12 additional frames being presented compared with the 60 Hz mode, each frame is being displayed for less time, resulting in a total of one second for the 3:3 cadence, just as only one second elapsed for the 3:2 cadence. The sound (for one second) will be fine.:)

KDD

Ah, I see. Thanks.

if i can only get two studs would that be ok?

Not sure why you can't hit three studs? The SF670 wall plate is more than wide enough and you don't need to center the wall mount as the TV can easily slide left/right to center the TV after the wall plate is mounted into three studs.

-Robert

Elite, had them both in home for a short time doing A then B.
We can agree to disagree, but I think you should add to your posts that it is in your opinion....especially in a Pioneer only thread

I read that post when you submitted it. I don't know what to say as it sounds just as oof now as it did then.
+8 or +9 to get the detail on a sxrd, sorry but that is not what I nor anyone else I know of sees.
I had mine at 0 brightness when doing the A then B.

C'mon now, I've used IMO when necessary. And my findings were not an opinion as they were results with my conclusions so to say in my opinion wasn't relevant in this case.

If you results were different, then post your findings with the TV models noted and state your results. And if that's what you found I wouldn't have quoted you telling you that you are wrong.

What's funny about all this is that you compared an A3000 and to an Elite whereas I compared a 6010 to an XBR1 and you are telling me my result are "oof". If you want to do this right then compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges, right?

And not sure who "everyone else" is or what that matters to me, but everyone else on this board who has questioned me or told me that I'm wrong didn't do the test.

Like I've clarified many times, the Kuro is 10 times better than the SXRD. Shadow detail is one area that need to be improved IMO. For some reason people in the Pioneer section seems to be so sensitive about anything in the least bit negative. Like every other set the Pioneer's are not perfect. If they were, none of us would have the urge to upgrade each year.

No, not really. Remember that at 72 Hz (which is the display rate with Advanced Pure Cinema detecting a 24p original source), the screen is refreshing at 72 frames PER SECOND. Though there are 12 additional frames being presented compared with the 60 Hz mode, each frame is being displayed for less time, resulting in a total of one second for the 3:3 cadence, just as only one second elapsed for the 3:2 cadence. The sound (for one second) will be fine.:)

KDD

Wait, does that mean it'll do the same thing for 480p60 with a 3:2 cadence? Like from a regular DVD player?

Wait, does that mean it'll do the same thing for 480p60 with a 3:2 cadence? Like from a regular DVD player?

According to D-nice, yes.:)

KDD

I can't follow the math, but I do know that a 60" Pioneer panel is just shy of 58" wide (57 11/16).

I don't follow his math either, but I was wondering if your measurement is taken of "viewable" screen only, and excludes the bezel?

ecoustics.com (http://www.ecoustics.com/tl/22315/) gives a simple way to calculate various viewing distances/TV sizes for 1080p, 16:9 Televisions.

If you know your viewing distance, and want to find the ideal TV size, measure your distance from the display in inches, and multiply by the following:

THX minimum display size, multiply by 0.55
SMPTE recommended display size, multiply by 0.60
THX maximum display size, multiply by 0.75

Obviously you can use the equation in reverse if you want to find out how far you should be sitting from a display you already know the size of. You just divide the size of the display by the given numbers (instead of multiplying), and the resulting # will be how many inches you should be sitting from your display.

So for a 10ft (120 inches) viewing distance, the ideal display size would be

THX Min: 120 x 0.55 = 66"
SMPTE: 120 x 0.60 = 72"
THX Max: 120 x 0.75 = 90"

Or in reverse, the ideal viewing distance for a 60" display:

THX Furthest: 60 / 0.55 = 109.1" and then Divide by 12 for feet = 9.1'
SMPTE: 60 / 0.60 = 100" then 100 / 12 = 8.3'
THX Closest: 60 / 0.75 = 80" then 80 / 12 = 6.7'

-Coggs


Or just use this handy online calculator ;)
http://members.shaw.ca/blackbullet/VDC.jpg (http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html)

I can't follow the math, but I do know that a 60" Pioneer panel is just shy of 58" wide (57 11/16).True, but the screen is 52.3" wide. I don't worry about calculated seating distances, but it's the screen width that is being used to do those calculations. :)

Or just use this handy online calculator ;)
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

Great :mad:

My couch is 14' from the wall ... and this says I should be maximum 7.8' away from a 60" to benefit from 1080i (not even 'p')

Time to check out the projectors ... :eek: (bugged eyes implies joke, since I would have bugged eyes from sitting 7' away)

I don't follow his math either, but I was wondering if your measurement is taken of "viewable" screen only, and excludes the bezel?

True, but the screen is 52.3" wide. I don't worry about calculated seating distances, but it's the screen width that is being used to do those calculations. :)

Duh! I totally missed that.



Great :mad:

My couch is 14' from the wall ... and this says I should be maximum 7.8' away from a 60" to benefit from 1080i (not even 'p')

Time to check out the projectors ... :eek:

I'm not sure if you're serious or being facetious - but I take those calculators with a large grain of salt. Personally, I don't need the screen to fill my field of vision. I just want the picture to feel big. YMMV (I knew someday I'd find a use for one of the acronyms I learned here!)

Very true! Also, different Best Buy stores don't all have the same price, why that is, I don't know. When the 7G Pro-FHD1 was still there, one place had it for the full $10,000 MSRP. Another 50 miles away had it for $7,599. The first place still had it for $10,000 when the new 8G 60" Elite was only $7,599. The second place had both the FHD1 and 60" 8G for the same price!

Another thing, if you ask Best Buy, even on the first day something comes out, you can easily get ~10%-15% off MSRP, even if listed as selling for MSRP at Best Buy, you just need to ask and bitch for 20 minutes or so. Best Buy is like a car salesman. You can talk them down.

The Best Buy salesman even tried to convince me the 60" 8G Elite with a tuner, and the FHD1 50" with no tuner was a "more elite" model, so it still costs more, because it's better quality!

You are very right. I was in Best Buy the other night inquiring to the arrival and price of the 151. They had to dig a bit, but quoted me a price of $700 under sticker and sometime in June arrival. They had no info on the blu-ray player, but said if I got both together, they would work out a deal. So they are very willing to deal right off the bat before inventory is even in and hint that they can go further. I have also negotiated other items like DirecTV receivers down just by talking with them for a while. They are like used car salesmen giving me more motivation to support the forum with a purchase form a sponsor.

To achieve SMPTE minimum viewing angle I need an 88.5" tv.:D C'mon Pioneer, I'd even settle for an Elite 80".:cool:

I've already got a pair of Pio plasma's,

and waiting patiently for the Kuro projector now,
where screen size is only limited by my room dimensions :D

Great :mad:

My couch is 14' from the wall ... and this says I should be maximum 7.8' away from a 60" to benefit from 1080i (not even 'p')That's why I don't worry about calculated distances. ;)

In any case, about 9 feet (THX recommendations) is where you would start missing detail in a high definition image if your vision is 20/20.

As for immersion, wider is better, but if the story grabs me, I can become immersed through a knot hole. :D

To achieve SMPTE minimum viewing angle I need an 88.5" tv.:D C'mon Pioneer, I'd even settle for an Elite 80".:cool:Samsung is doing a higher definition 82" LCD flat panel. All you will need to get one is six figures on your check.

As for immersion, wider is better, but if the story grabs me, I can become immersed through a knot hole. :D

:D..same here!

Samsung is doing a higher definition 82" LCD flat panel. All you will need to get one is six figures on your check.

Now you are in the realm of projectors, and speaking of this I understand Pioneer has announced a 1080p 9G Kuro Projector later this year. I understand this projector will be made by JVC, and was wondering just what sort of " 9G Kuro Tech" is included??

Now you are in the realm of projectors, and speaking of this I understand Pioneer has announced a 1080p 9G Kuro Projector later this year. I understand this projector will be made by JVC, and was wondering just what sort of " 9G Kuro Tech" is included??

Uhhh... black levels?
http://www.qualsiasi.net/images/articles/CptObvious_1_original.jpg

I mostly sit 14' from the screen, but I'm going from a 42" RPTV to the Pioneer 111 (50"). Why? Because I'm limited by wall space. I'd love a 60" or larger, but my Vandersteens would be in front of a window or outa there. Ain't going to happen!

Plus, I'm so easily pleased, I can become "immersed" in a postage stamp 42" screen.

OK psychot, but just how is this occurring? Pio video processing? What exactly? I ask for specifics because according to Pioneer, part of Kuro's secret sauce is in the actual plasma glass panel and the rest is electronics & I imagine algorithyms too.

Now you are in the realm of projectors, and speaking of this I understand Pioneer has announced a 1080p 9G Kuro Projector later this year. I understand this projector will be made by JVC, and was wondering just what sort of " 9G Kuro Tech" is included??I'm sure that Pioneer will say that they have impoved the firmware. I've seen the first JVC model (R1) several times, and JVC has an R2 version out now with an R3 coming later this year or early 2009.

It will be interesting to find out how UMR reacts to the Pioneer version. He has some "color" reservations concerning the current JVC products.

OK psychot, but just how is this occurring? Pio video processing? What exactly?

hehehe
No idea actually.
But, I mean... 1) it's a kuro product, and 2) it's the next generation.
So therefore it's almost a given that black levels will be better considering that's the very premise of the kuro line.

This may be a stupid question but does/has anyone considered framing their
tv in with some sort of decorative molding similar to what would be used say for like a large mirror? I would not place it directly next to or on the tv. Thinking that if it is not recommended due to improper ventilation, you could space the framing a couple inches away from the tv on each side to give the screen a floating affect. Just thinking out loud here. I am picturing what my wife will say when she looks at the 60" hanging on the wall and what i will say to her in order for her to be happy with it.
Thoughts?

Ordering my 151 this week, and starting to lay the ground work for the ol' wife's approval.....

Yes, there are 720p60 signals which are 24p. House on Fox for example is really 720p24 ( the actual show is 1080p24 :( but Fox only does 720p, boo! Good for sports 720p60, bad for 1080p24 original material. )

According to D-Nice, the 9G Elites using Advanced PureCinema mode activated can detect 3:2 cadence in 720p60 signals and display as 1920x1080p72 3:3.


720p24 isn't part of the SMPTE standard, and must be sent as 720p60 3:2 cadence.

Wow, that's really cool! I'm really excited that this new unit will be so much better than my older unit.

Is there a "Advanced PureCinema mode"
or is there one "PureCinema mode"?

I take it, it's best to leave the Kuro on PureCinema mode at all times and feed the Kuro only native signals.


And then here's my confusion, on the Elites, I read on this forum there's a "Pure" mode. And I take it that's not the same as PureCinema mode?

D-Nice mentioned that out of the box, a good quick adjustment out of the box would be to set the Kuro to "Pure" and in "Colorspace 2"

SO from what I'm reading, I also want it to be in "PureCinema" mode IN ADDITION to the other two settings "Pure" and "Colorspace 2". Or is that not possible?

No, not really. Remember that at 72 Hz (which is the display rate with Advanced Pure Cinema detecting a 24p original source), the screen is refreshing at 72 frames PER SECOND. Though there are 12 additional frames being presented compared with the 60 Hz mode, each frame is being displayed for less time, resulting in a total of one second for the 3:3 cadence, just as only one second elapsed for the 3:2 cadence. The sound (for one second) will be fine.:)

KDD

I'm very interested in the 151fd so I want to be sure I understand purecinema mode performance with DVDs. If I feed it a 480i or 480p signal from a film DVD, then you're saying it will convert it to 72Hz with 3:3 cadence? So with advanced purecinema mode it will basically convert any film based source to 72Hz and give judder-free playback? Do the 8G kuros have this feature? Then I can check it out at my local dealer. Thanks for your help.

This may be a stupid question but does/has anyone considered framing their
tv in with some sort of decorative molding similar to what would be used say for like a large mirror? I would not place it directly next to or on the tv. Thinking that if it is not recommended due to improper ventilation, you could space the framing a couple inches away from the tv on each side to give the screen a floating affect. Just thinking out loud here. I am picturing what my wife will say when she looks at the 60" hanging on the wall and what i will say to her in order for her to be happy with it.
Thoughts?

Ordering my 151 this week, and starting to lay the ground work for the ol' wife's approval.....

I've actually seen this done before, and there are companies that specifically make this type of framing for flat panel TV's. Just do a search and you'll find them.

I've actually seen this done before, and there are companies that specifically make this type of framing for flat panel TV's. Just do a search and you'll find them.


I have seen the same thing but they are way, way expensive. I am fairly handy and would prefer to do something like this myself. It seems fairly easy
if I could find the right molding/framing. I picture the tv with a 2 to 3" gap or window the entire way around.

This may be a stupid question but does/has anyone considered framing their
tv in with some sort of decorative molding similar to what would be used say for like a large mirror? I would not place it directly next to or on the tv. Thinking that if it is not recommended due to improper ventilation, you could space the framing a couple inches away from the tv on each side to give the screen a floating affect. Just thinking out loud here. I am picturing what my wife will say when she looks at the 60" hanging on the wall and what i will say to her in order for her to be happy with it.
Thoughts?

Ordering my 151 this week, and starting to lay the ground work for the ol' wife's approval.....My local dealer has a 150FD inside a large decorative frame with a motorized Painting. Press a button and the painting retracts to show the TV. And you can do it in reverse to show a different painting.

BTW - the price on the frame/painting is 7999$

The overscan on the my Kuro is nearly zero.

Nearly? Do you have your set on Dot by Dot mode? I think these sets have zero overscan.

Not trying to annoy you guys, but I couldn't find an answer to this question.

Suppose you have a poorly encoded DVD such that the 3:2 cadence is not consistent.
Will the PDP start bouncing between 60 Hz and 72 Hz?
Will this be visible?



Thanks

Are there a lot of poorly encoded DVDs out there? If so, I wonder what the percentage is and why they would be encoded poorly. Is it a certain company that always makes more poorly encoded DVDs than other companies?

If so, what company is it?

I know with laserdiscs, there was one company that had more problems with laser rot than others.

You are very right. I was in Best Buy the other night inquiring to the arrival and price of the 151. They had to dig a bit, but quoted me a price of $700 under sticker and sometime in June arrival. They had no info on the blu-ray player, but said if I got both together, they would work out a deal. So they are very willing to deal right off the bat before inventory is even in and hint that they can go further. I have also negotiated other items like DirecTV receivers down just by talking with them for a while. They are like used car salesmen giving me more motivation to support the forum with a purchase form a sponsor.

How does that even makes sense? You find someone who's willing to cut you a great deal, but you walk away to give that business to someone else? Are you from Bizarro-World?

does anyone here have the ears of the pioneer folks? if so, can you please forward to them a query:

* your Kuros have SRS features that allow using the TV with the built-in speakers. you have a subwoofer out. Why not also have rear speakers out? see, this would allow me to skip the receiver in the loop, admittedly at lower audio quality. but if I can live with SRS, surely I could live with some surround sound. see, it is not so much the price of the receiver, but the many more cables and compatibility issues (including lipsync, HDMI handshake, etc.) that bother me. [if the speakers were wireless, it would be even better, but it isn't needed. even just ordinary RCA plugs out required active rear speakers would be great.]

* the TOSLink out should be able to strip off an HDMI audio signal that is coming in, and just forward it, too. again, this would be a convenience feature. I can then use the many HDMI inputs on my TV as my input selector. the alternative is to use my receiver as my HDMI selector (but then why do I need 4 HDMI inputs on the TV?), and pray that the receiver simply passes through the HDMI signal for Pioneer processing, rather than distort it, and again hope for lipsync and no HDMI glitches.

both should be real easy...

thanks,

iaw

PS: D-Nice---are you a Pioneer dealer? I tried to PM you, but failed.

does anyone here have the ears of the pioneer folks? if so, can you please forward to them a query:

* your Kuros have SRS features that allow using the TV with the built-in speakers. you have a subwoofer out. Why not also have rear speakers out? see, this would allow me to skip the receiver in the loop, admittedly at lower audio quality. but if I can live with SRS, surely I could live with some surround sound. see, it is not so much the price of the receiver, but the many more cables and compatibility issues (including lipsync, HDMI handshake, etc.) that bother me. [if the speakers were wireless, it would be even better, but it isn't needed. even just ordinary RCA plugs out required active rear speakers would be great.]So you want them to put a 5.1 amp in the panel? Interesting though, however, it's not going to happen anytime soon (if ever).

* the TOSLink out should be able to strip off an HDMI audio signal that is coming in, and just forward it, too. again, this would be a convenience feature.I think you need to read the guidlines for HDCP :) This wish will never happen.

PS: D-Nice---are you a Pioneer dealer? I tried to PM you, but failed.Nope.

I'm not sure if you're serious or being facetious - but I take those calculators with a large grain of salt. Personally, I don't need the screen to fill my field of vision. I just want the picture to feel big. YMMV (I knew someday I'd find a use for one of the acronyms I learned here!)

Interesting. There are some who like sitting further back in the theater so they can take in the whole image without having to move their head just to see the entire image.

Personally, I don't like sitting too close. I like sitting about in the center of the theater, maybe even about one or two more rows back from the center.

Just curious about how much the 6020's speaker might weigh. All this talk of size/viewing distance has me squirming about my 5020 pre-order......but my stand is rated for 125lbs.:o

Just curious about how much the 6020's speaker might weigh. All this talk of size/viewing distance has me squirming about my 5020 pre-order......but my stand is rated for 125lbs.:oThe cut sheets on the first page gives wieght info for the panel with speakers and the pedestal stand ;)


Edit: Are you only going to use the panel and stand...no speaker attached?

Just curious about how much the 6020's speaker might weigh. All this talk of size/viewing distance has me squirming about my 5020 pre-order......but my stand is rated for 125lbs.:o

The 6020 is 130 lbs. with it's speaker and stand.

Get a better stand, you don't want to end up with $4000 worth of broken glass do you?

:D
Yeah, that would not be good!

But yes, D-Nice, my thought was to just use the tv and stand, which is not shown on that cut sheet.

Aww heck, I really could barely justify the 5020 as it was. 60" can wait a few years I guess...:o

:D
Yeah, that would not be good!

But yes, D-Nice, my thought was to just use the tv and stand, which is not shown on that cut sheet.The speaker weighs no more than 5 pounds so you are still going to be over your stand's rated capacity.

Are there a lot of poorly encoded DVDs out there? If so, I wonder what the percentage is and why they would be encoded poorly. Is it a certain company that always makes more poorly encoded DVDs than other companies?

If so, what company is it?

I know with laserdiscs, there was one company that had more problems with laser rot than others.Well, the table listed here (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_1/dvd-benchmark-guide-to-progressive-scan-shootout-1-2003.html) (under "The Truth About the Flags") shows that deviations from 3-2 occur more then you would think. I'm pretty sure the middle column is only referring to the DVD flags, however I think the right hand column applies to the data itself.

One of the tests done on this page is called "Bad Edit". This test is checking that the de-interlacing doesn't break, but it suggests that these "Bad Edits" are relatively common.

BTW, the test results are displayed here:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=0&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0

D-nice i was told in my near bestbuy that they were hoping for mid june
i also have a friend that is going to tap in to rss to check more info, hes in a diffrent store so i will have confirmation from 2 diffrent stores in 2 diffrent city's....


Probably late July.


x2 i also agree the guy is a moron lol besbuy hooks him up and he flat out wants to slap them and get buisness else where? i'd wish i get an offer like he is getting, even if its slight more i think i have more confidence in local retun policty for exhcange purpose. we never know if we get one dead pixel or a bad chance of burn in ;) lol j/k on the burn in but you never know what could happen

;13933096']How does that even makes sense? You find someone who's willing to cut you a great deal, but you walk away to give that business to someone else? Are you from Bizarro-World?

EDIT: D-nice what is the weight of the PRO-111FD the 50" with everything on ? i have a stand but i dont know the brand or what type it is .... it was given to me from my dad he bought it in target.....

i dont see logo on the front maybe its on the back? again would apriciate the weight for the PRO-111FD with everything on

I think you need to read the guidlines for HDCP :) This wish will never happen.
IMHO, That HDCP guideline is *STUPID*!! I mean, the toslink is there only
for Hi-def cable output, but yet many HDCP supported products that output
to a TV (eg: PS3) allow you a secondary output via Toslink anyhow. Why is
it that the TV cannot be allowed to do the same? There's no reason for HDMI
on a TV otherwise. Dammit, they should just have left the TV with the bloody
DVI connection and called it a day. I mean, Hi def audio and hi-def video on
the same medium makes sense, yet you can't share it. Sigh!

It kills me how this whole HDCP compliance regulation makes things more irritating
and less sensible. For many of us (me included), it's better to hook the HDMI
directly to the TV and then to a receiver. Yet, if you go through the TV directly,
you can't output the sound back to a receiver.:mad: I've heard of receivers that
have switching capabilities (yay, more $$) but I'm still not convinced over good ol
direct connectivity.

EDIT: D-nice what is the weight of the PRO-111FD the 50" with everything on ? i have a stand but i dont know the brand or what type it is .... it was given to me from my dad he bought it in target.....

i dont see logo on the front maybe its on the back? again would apriciate the weight for the PRO-111FD with everything on

With everything attached, it's 88 lbs.

D-nice i was told in my near bestbuy that they were hoping for mid june
i also have a friend that is going to tap in to rss to check more info, hes in a diffrent store so i will have confirmation from 2 diffrent stores in 2 diffrent city's.... You were told June for what model? I'm strickly speaking of Elites.

I'm not sure if you're serious or being facetious - but I take those calculators with a large grain of salt. Personally, I don't need the screen to fill my field of vision. I just want the picture to feel big. YMMV (I knew someday I'd find a use for one of the acronyms I learned here!)

I was only trying to give a range people can choose from which would give a theatrical experience with the maximum distance being the 20/20 visual acuity limit.

Unless you're in the very back row of a very large theater with a smallish screen, those will be about the same as your local theater.

For me, I'd NEVER sit further back than 1.3x or 68" from a 60". Where I sit anywhere between my 0.83x ( 44" ) and the 68".

Also I made a slight error for the 50" seating distance :( I was doing everything in feet. It should be +/- 1.7' or ~20". ( 1.666666' truncated rather than rounded woops. But I was only off by about an inch. :D)

Vashti,

Try ~68" from a 60" for a bit. The closer you can get, without filling up your peripheral vision, the better. Most people are used to sitting far because on an SDTV the picture looks horrible. Then the reason you originally sat so far, the pixlelization, becomes not the reason. 1080p allows you to sit real close. You might as well take advantage of it. When I had my 106" 16:9 CRT FP, I was sitting slightly over 6.5 feet away. It wasn't too close at all and felt like I was in a theater. Actually even better than a theater because it was darker (I could get more immersed and only see the screen), more personal, and comfortable.

I really wish there was a plasma projector! :( Then I could make the screen real big, have low black levels and have that 3,500:1 ANSI CR punch!

You were told June for what model? I'm strickly speaking of Elites.

Yea probably talking non Elites

thanks HDpeet hmm my current panny is under 60 ibs i dont know whats the stand rated at .....

With everything attached, it's 88 lbs.


D-nice i asked for the PRO-111FD, i guess we have to wait that all ....


You were told June for what model? I'm strickly speaking of Elites.

Yea probably talking non Elites

Yes, it was probably a non-elite, as BB Stores (excluding Magnolia) do not carry the Elites.

I see from another thread you believe the TH-50PZ800U will have better colors than the 5020, but not compare in other areas, (black level, contrast, processing I think you mentioned).

I also see that you will be getting an 800 yourself.

What's your take on importance of each set's strengths, comparatively?
(If that makes any sense at all!?:D)

Can't you just use optical from the source to your receiver? What's the big deal about going from the TV? I suppose it saves you an optical cable if you have 2 sources that have digital optical outs , but is it THAT big a deal? Monoprice optical cables are like 5 bucks and any receiver nowadays is going to have 3-4 optical inputs, plus some digital coaxials which are just as good.

Not that it really means alot, but are any of the 9G pioneers "THX Certified"??

I'm with Hingis_Fan, although not a Hingis fan;)

I use optical out from my cable box to my 705 so I can use tv speakers or surround system.

I have no issues with this setup, but am not using hdmi yet.

I was only trying to give a range people can choose from which would give a theatrical experience with the maximum distance being the 20/20 visual acuity limit.

Unless you're in the very back row of a very large theater with a smallish screen, those will be about the same as your local theater.

For me, I'd NEVER sit further back than 1.3x or 68" from a 60". Where I sit anywhere between my 0.83x ( 44" ) and the 68".

Also I made a slight error for the 50" seating distance :( I was doing everything in feet. It should be +/- 1.7' or ~20". ( 1.666666' truncated rather than rounded woops. But I was only off by about an inch. :D)

Vashti,

Try ~68" from a 60" for a bit. The closer you can get, without filling up your peripheral vision, the better. Most people are used to sitting far because on an SDTV the picture looks horrible. Then the reason you originally sat so far, the pixlelization, becomes not the reason. 1080p allows you to sit real close. You might as well take advantage of it. When I had my 106" 16:9 CRT FP, I was sitting slightly over 6.5 feet away. It wasn't too close at all and felt like I was in a theater. Actually even better than a theater because it was darker (I could get more immersed and only see the screen), more personal, and comfortable.

I really wish there was a plasma projector! :( Then I could make the screen real big, have low black levels and have that 3,500:1 ANSI CR punch!

I agree. I also think the physically bigger the screen, the better. I mean even if you cover for the screen width/viewing distance ratio, I believe the bigger screen will still be more immersing, because with closer viewing distances parallax (the difference of views from your left and right eyes) can become sort of a distraction. Your brain will know you're viewing at a smaller screen because of this even though it practically occupies the same field of vision. But I'm talking about the 2ft viewing distance that I use with my 25.5" monitor though, I haven't seen how much difference there is with 50 and 60.

It'd be interesting for me to check out what can be done with high-resolution video glasses in the future, if they ever make those. Parallax can be pretty much eliminated with those.

So you want them to put a 5.1 amp in the panel? Interesting though, however, it's not going to happen anytime soon (if ever).

I think you need to read the guidlines for HDCP :) This wish will never happen.

Nope.
Hello D-Nice and other senior members of the forum,

Can you please tell me if there would be any major difference in PQ or performance between the Pioneer BDP-51FD and Elite BDP-05FD BD players. They have something about 128 bit anf 256 bit mentioned in the pioneer website, but I dont know what those numbers really mean.

For PIP/PAP to work, one of the pictures has to be from the tuner.
Hi:
For the 9G plasma, If I wanted both PIP sources to be ATSC OTA, would I need to use the 9G's ATSC PLUS an additonal external tuner?
Also, for the 9G monitor, to receive the same, would I need TWO independant tuners?

George

I was only trying to give a range people can choose from which would give a theatrical experience with the maximum distance being the 20/20 visual acuity limit.

Unless you're in the very back row of a very large theater with a smallish screen, those will be about the same as your local theater.

For me, I'd NEVER sit further back than 1.3x or 68" from a 60". Where I sit anywhere between my 0.83x ( 44" ) and the 68".

Also I made a slight error for the 50" seating distance :( I was doing everything in feet. It should be +/- 1.7' or ~20". ( 1.666666' truncated rather than rounded woops. But I was only off by about an inch. :D)

Vashti,

Try ~68" from a 60" for a bit. The closer you can get, without filling up your peripheral vision, the better. Most people are used to sitting far because on an SDTV the picture looks horrible. Then the reason you originally sat so far, the pixlelization, becomes not the reason. 1080p allows you to sit real close. You might as well take advantage of it. When I had my 106" 16:9 CRT FP, I was sitting slightly over 6.5 feet away. It wasn't too close at all and felt like I was in a theater. Actually even better than a theater because it was darker (I could get more immersed and only see the screen), more personal, and comfortable.

I really wish there was a plasma projector! :( Then I could make the screen real big, have low black levels and have that 3,500:1 ANSI CR punch!

All of the discussion about seating distance is fun, but we need to remember that visual acuity and visual fields are extremely variable among different people. For those of us who are nearsighted, there are three issues:

1) Our vision may be corrected to as good as 20/10, though 20/15 to 20/30 is more common. This affects the argument about 720p vs 1080p and at which screen size the resolution increase is noticeable.

2) Corrective lenses in front of the eye (glasses) narrow our effective width of vision that is usable. On a widescreen TV (verses original 4:3 ratio HDTV) our minimum distance is not as short as it is for someone who does not wear glasses. Contact lenses are useful to remove this effect, but cannot be relied upon at all times (dry eyes, allergies, etc).

3) When our pupils dilate, our visual acuity decreases. This means that our theater rooms need to be configured according to our vision when it is dark, as that will be our worst vision.

All of us nearsighted people tend to be very sensitive to visual artifacts as well, as they cause us to squint (which is what nearsighted people do when something is out of focus, since by narrowing our field of vision, our focus improves). Squinting causes headaches, which makes us not enjoy our movies.

Bottom line, unless you have "perfectly normal" vision (20/20 without any correction, for both near and far vision) these calculators are rough at best. I would recommend that anyone else go to a custom installer who has a calibrated display of the type that you are interested in (KURO, of course ;)) and sit down at a variety of distances to see what is comfortable and optimal FOR YOU. Because what is the point of setting up a home theater that is perfect "by the numbers" if it isn't perfect for you? :confused:

KDD

Vashti,

Try ~68" from a 60" for a bit. The closer you can get, without filling up your peripheral vision, the better. Most people are used to sitting far because on an SDTV the picture looks horrible. Then the reason you originally sat so far, the pixlelization, becomes not the reason. 1080p allows you to sit real close. You might as well take advantage of it. When I had my 106" 16:9 CRT FP, I was sitting slightly over 6.5 feet away. It wasn't too close at all and felt like I was in a theater. Actually even better than a theater because it was darker (I could get more immersed and only see the screen), more personal, and comfortable.

I really wish there was a plasma projector! :( Then I could make the screen real big, have low black levels and have that 3,500:1 ANSI CR punch!

I would try it reio-ta. I have a couple of problems though.
My first and most insurmountable is that my TV is only 27". I'll be getting my 60" Kuro this summer when they come out. But even then, I'll have to be much further back than that for two reasons. For me to be 68" back, I'd have to put a chair such that it blocks the entryway and kitchen. (We're talking a Manhattan apartment here) My other problem is that I have to mount the TV pretty high. The bottom of it will be 44" up since it has to clear my speakers. The wall is too short to fit the speakers on the sides. I would fear if I was too close it would make my neck hurt. Oh well. At least, I'll have 60" of Kuro goodness.

I don't know if this has been posted before but I found this. Its the brochure for the pdp-6020fd.

http://www.plasmaconnection.com/pdfs/693.pdf

I don't know if this has been posted before but I found this. Its the brochure for the pdp-6020fd.


All the specs are on the front of the first page of this thread and were posted a while back :)

D-nice i was told in my near bestbuy that they were hoping for mid june
i also have a friend that is going to tap in to rss to check more info, hes in a diffrent store so i will have confirmation from 2 diffrent stores in 2 diffrent city's....





x2 i also agree the guy is a moron lol besbuy hooks him up and he flat out wants to slap them and get buisness else where? i'd wish i get an offer like he is getting, even if its slight more i think i have more confidence in local retun policty for exhcange purpose. we never know if we get one dead pixel or a bad chance of burn in ;) lol j/k on the burn in but you never know what could happen



EDIT: D-nice what is the weight of the PRO-111FD the 50" with everything on ? i have a stand but i dont know the brand or what type it is .... it was given to me from my dad he bought it in target.....

i dont see logo on the front maybe its on the back? again would apriciate the weight for the PRO-111FD with everything on


I've been checking RSS almost every day I work to find the 'in-stock' date of them and I haven't even seen a SKU for it in the system yet.

I was only trying to give a range people can choose from which would give a theatrical experience with the maximum distance being the 20/20 visual acuity limit.

Unless you're in the very back row of a very large theater with a smallish screen, those will be about the same as your local theater.

For me, I'd NEVER sit further back than 1.3x or 68" from a 60". Where I sit anywhere between my 0.83x ( 44" ) and the 68".

Also I made a slight error for the 50" seating distance :( I was doing everything in feet. It should be +/- 1.7' or ~20". ( 1.666666' truncated rather than rounded woops. But I was only off by about an inch. :D)

Try ~68" from a 60" for a bit. The closer you can get, without filling up your peripheral vision, the better. Most people are used to sitting far because on an SDTV the picture looks horrible. Then the reason you originally sat so far, the pixlelization, becomes not the reason. 1080p allows you to sit real close. You might as well take advantage of it. When I had my 106" 16:9 CRT FP, I was sitting slightly over 6.5 feet away. It wasn't too close at all and felt like I was in a theater. Actually even better than a theater because it was darker (I could get more immersed and only see the screen), more personal, and comfortable.

I really wish there was a plasma projector! :( Then I could make the screen real big, have low black levels and have that 3,500:1 ANSI CR punch!

I agree with all you said reio-ta. I sit about 1.3 to 1.4 times from my 119 diagonal screen and enjoy what many would call an "In Movie" experience in my basement theater.

Names removed from reio-ta's quote to protect the innocent.

-Robert

I've been checking RSS almost every day I work to find the 'in-stock' date of them and I haven't even seen a SKU for it in the system yet.

We have SKUs at my CDN BB, but they won't be the same in the US....no DC stock yet though. (warehouse)

oh, and same MSRP as USA this year! Yay! Although no Elites....boo!

So you want them to put a 5.1 amp in the panel? Interesting though, however, it's not going to happen anytime soon (if ever).

I do not mean having a full 5.1 receiver for external speakers, of course. See, we already have the processing and the 3.0 amp in the TV for driving the internal speakers. We have the .1 preamp output for the subwoofer output. If we do SRS, we also presumably have the internal logic that handles the rear speakers, i.e., another +2 preamp. All I need now is to lead the internal +2 rear speaker info to external RCA plugs, which would allow me to hook up active, amplified speakers.

I think you need to read the guidlines for HDCP :) This wish will never happen.

Is HDCP like totally stupid or what? if my receiver can strip out the audio for its own sound use (while forwarding the video for display), why can't my TV strip out the video for its own display (while forwarding the audio for the receiver)? allowing the former while excluding the latter makes zero sense to me.

I can't even understand why disallowing sound forwarding would get any kind of protection here. after all, if I can already forward the audio stream in my receiver (which I can, afaik). If I wanted to record the audio stream, what would be different if it were forwarded by my TV rather than forwarded by the audio device???

What if the TV pretended to be a receiver, and had an HDMI out? It could just leave out the video signal on the HDMI out port, if this was cheaper. My receiver could then take the HDMI in, ignore the video, and just play the audio.

I am not blaming you, of course. You are almost surely right. I don't know about the tech details of HDCP.


Thanks for all your posts, D-Nice. If you are not a dealer, are you just a super-hobbyist?

regards,

/iaw

Can't you just use optical from the source to your receiver? What's the big deal about going from the TV? I suppose it saves you an optical cable if you have 2 sources that have digital optical outs , but is it THAT big a deal? Monoprice optical cables are like 5 bucks and any receiver nowadays is going to have 3-4 optical inputs, plus some digital coaxials which are just as good.

I can, but then I need to switch the receiver input signal everytime I switch the TV. Yes, a programmable remote can fix this, too. Yes, the HDMI communication specification may do this, too, though I think incompatibility across vendors has already created enough havoc.

Having the TV output a TOSlink stream would solve synchronization and switching problems beautifully simply.

Well, the table listed here (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_1/dvd-benchmark-guide-to-progressive-scan-shootout-1-2003.html) (under "The Truth About the Flags") shows that deviations from 3-2 occur more then you would think. I'm pretty sure the middle column is only referring to the DVD flags, however I think the right hand column applies to the data itself.

One of the tests done on this page is called "Bad Edit". This test is checking that the de-interlacing doesn't break, but it suggests that these "Bad Edits" are relatively common.

BTW, the test results are displayed here:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=0&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0

Wow, that's something else. I would think with a Pioneer Elite player set to source out, with the Kuro doing the processing, it should do pretty good, then again, it would be intersting to see how the displays test against the players.

Hello D-Nice and other senior members of the forum,

Can you please tell me if there would be any major difference in PQ or performance between the Pioneer BDP-51FD and Elite BDP-05FD BD players. They have something about 128 bit anf 256 bit mentioned in the pioneer website, but I dont know what those numbers really mean.


Your question more properly goes to the Blu Ray forum but the numbers you reference are for the video DACs for people using component cables/inputs, rather than HDMI.

I see from another thread you believe the TH-50PZ800U will have better colors than the 5020, but not compare in other areas, (black level, contrast, processing I think you mentioned).

I also see that you will be getting an 800 yourself.

What's your take on importance of each set's strengths, comparatively?
(If that makes any sense at all!?:D)First and foremost, the 42PZ800u that I'm purchasing isn't going to be one of my main displays. It's going to my daughter. Second, for what it's going to be used for, I would rather sacrifice a hit in black levels for more accurate colors. I will never watch the 42PZ800u in the same setting as my Kuro (there will always be a light on in my daughter's room).

For my main displays, I require the best blacks, processing and color accuracy. Currently, that can only be found in the Pioneer Elite Kuros.

So if one prefers color accuracy over black levels and processing....get a 800u.

If one prefers black levels and processing over color accuracy.....get the non-Elite Kuros.

If one wants it all....get a Elite Kuro.

Not that it really means alot, but are any of the 9G pioneers "THX Certified"??Nope.

Hi:
For the 9G plasma, If I wanted both PIP sources to be ATSC OTA, would I need to use the 9G's ATSC PLUS an additonal external tuner?No


Also, for the 9G monitor, to receive the same, would I need TWO independant tuners?

George
Yes

I do not mean having a full 5.1 receiver for external speakers, of course. See, we already have the processing and the 3.0 amp in the TV for driving the internal speakers. We have the .1 preamp output for the subwoofer output......You mean 2.1 as the Kuro doesn't have Left/Center/Right channels. :)



If you are not a dealer, are you just a super-hobbyist? Nope, I'm Batman. You can see me in theaters on July 18th :)

Right now I have all my equipment plug into a cheap surge protector from costco.Should I invest in a power conditioner or a better surge protector? Is there a difference between them? I don't want to fry my 151 when it arrives.

xb1032...I also had the 5080 for just less than a month to compare to.

You mean 2.1 as the Kuro doesn't have Left/Center/Right channel

Glad you cleared up that one! Could you recommend a good external OTA Tuner for the Elite Pro-141FD?

For me, I'd NEVER sit further back than 1.3x or 68" from a 60". Where I sit anywhere between my 0.83x ( 44" ) and the 68".

Wow....you sit as close as less than 4' from a 60" screen? That would drive me batty and make my eyes painfully sore....not to mention in my place it would look very funny to have my couch and recliner that close to the display wall so I have a few constraints.

First and foremost, the 42PZ800u that I'm purchasing isn't going to be one of my main displays. It's going to my daughter. Second, for what it's going to be used for, I would rather sacrifice a hit in black levels for more accurate colors. I will never watch the 42PZ800u in the same setting as my Kuro (there will always be a light on in my daughter's room).

For my main displays, I require the best blacks, processing and color accuracy. Currently, that can only be found in the Pioneer Elite Kuros.

So if one prefers color accuracy over black levels and processing....get a 800u.

If one prefers black levels and processing over color accuracy.....get the non-Elite Kuros.

If one wants it all....get a Elite Kuro.

Isn't the color accuracy pretty darn good if not very close to the 800u?

Can't you just use optical from the source to your receiver? What's the big deal about going from the TV? I suppose it saves you an optical cable if you have 2 sources that have digital optical outs , but is it THAT big a deal? Monoprice optical cables are like 5 bucks and any receiver nowadays is going to have 3-4 optical inputs, plus some digital coaxials which are just as good.

I mentioned using the optical from the source to the receiver is often available
which is why this whole HDCP thing doesn't make sense. I like to hook all
my goodies to the TV and have 1 TOSLINK cable come out the TV into my
receiver. Yeah, I have multiple inputs, but that's besides the point. Stuff
like the PS3 choose to output audio via only the HDMI cable *OR* the toslink
but not both. Because of this, I have to choose between outputting the
sound to the receiver *OR* the TV but not both. There are times when I
wouldn't mind just using the TV speakers, but I can't do that if I set my
device to output via toslink.

I mean, isn't the HDMI cable supposed to make things a little less messy
behind the back of the TV? With HDMI cables coming out of the PS3, XBOX,
Laptop, Cable Box, and such, one would think we wouldn't need 4 separate
toslink cables to go with it. Further, up until recently (remember, hdmi has
been around for a while now), there were hardly any receivers that handled
HDMI inputs and the ones that did certainly didn't allow 4 inputs. With
TVs having 4 ports and such, it makes sense to give us the option of
allowing the TV to act as a pass-thru to the receiver via the optical toslink.

I mentioned using the optical from the source to the receiver is often available
which is why this whole HDCP thing doesn't make sense. I like to hook all
my goodies to the TV and have 1 TOSLINK .

I wish TOSLINK was given more bandwidth and allowed the HD sound formats. I don't get it. Fiber optic cable is faster than an HDMI cable. So a TOSLINK cable could handle more BW but they limit, why? grrrr. I love optical so much. IMHO video and audio should be dedicated. Not: PS3 HDMI -> audio reciever HDMI -> TV. I mean, huh? Stupid. You need two HDMI cables through an intermediary box. What the difference between two different cables direct? Bah.

yeah i too have a costco branded $40 surge cyber power rebadage as philips? should i upgrade to a better product? or is this the same senerio talk as monster cable being just brand and you wont tell a 10 cable to a 100 cable?

Right now I have all my equipment plug into a cheap surge protector from costco.Should I invest in a power conditioner or a better surge protector? Is there a difference between them? I don't want to fry my 151 when it arrives.

keep on trying il check out something else to see if i can aquire a sku and this is for the us ...


I've been checking RSS almost every day I work to find the 'in-stock' date of them and I haven't even seen a SKU for it in the system yet.

For those who currently own an 8G plasma and often watch movies in OAR have you had any problems with retention or burn in?

Pioneer's Promotional Data Sheet for the Pro-151FD contains the following ...

Do not display content in the 4:3 aspect ratio (black or gray bars on left and right side of content) or letter-box content (black bars above and below of content) for extended periods of time, or use either of these viewing modes repeatedly within a short period of time. This Plasma Display System is equipped with multiple wide-screen viewing modes; use one of these screen modes to fill the entire screen with content.

For those who currently own an 8G plasma and often watch movies in OAR have you had any problems with burn in?[/I]

Well, I guess this will be the topic of discussion for Saturday. In the 8G thread, there was a lot of talk about this. Generally, if you watch something wide screen or 4:3, when your done, be sure to fill the screen afterwards with video for a bit longer than it was that you were watching the widescreen/4:3 content. At least that's what I do. I have a CRT rear projection unit, and CRTs are also susceptible to burn in too, however I've never had a problem.

If I watch a movie that's letter boxed that lasts for 2 hours, I try to play video that fills the screen for 4 hours. That's what I do, though again I don't know if it's really suggested.

At least last year there was a option to put the unit into a "orbit" mode that was suppose to help. And some other function that "sweeps" the entire screen to help make "IR"??? go away.

Also in general, from all I've read, you really won't have to worry too much, however it's in the manual just to make people aware that if you abuse your screen, you will have problems.

Don't watch anything that scrolls along the bottom 24 hours a day for a year. Keep your contrast down and/or at proper levels, limit your game play...AND according to D-Nice, be sure to break in your Kuro properly before use.

If anyone would like to ring in and give their thoughts, that could be helpful.

Now that I think about it, currently with my rear projection CRT, many movies I watch are 1.85:1, however with the horrible overscan, and so it looks like it's filing the screen. The Kuros have I believe zero overscan, so 1.85:1 SHOULD display very thin black lines above and below with 1.85:1 material. I never had to worry about that with my current display, though with my new G9, I'll have to keep in mind that even a movie at 1.85:1 I will have to be carful on how I handle such movie watching.

Theirs no reason to be worry, just mix a bit of everything, i have a 42PX75u panny and always run 4:3 2:35:1 and alot of logo hud and gaming and my tv does not suffer any burn in, sure you get IR but it goes away almost right away. just dont want cartoon network or TNT for a whole 24 hr run before switching channels.... i never seen any burn in for any new gen plasma at all

I can, but then I need to switch the receiver input signal everytime I switch the TV. Yes, a programmable remote can fix this, too. Yes, the HDMI communication specification may do this, too, though I think incompatibility across vendors has already created enough havoc.

Having the TV output a TOSlink stream would solve synchronization and switching problems beautifully simply.

This is exactly how I want to setup my 5020 but I think I read somewhere that you cannot do that. Can someone please confirm if optical out to the receiver will work fine from the tv?

Someday I will own an Elite plasma :D

For now, my 42" panasonic plasma while just about to graduate college will do :p

First and foremost, the 42PZ800u that I'm purchasing isn't going to be one of my main displays. It's going to my daughter. Second, for what it's going to be used for, I would rather sacrifice a hit in black levels for more accurate colors. I will never watch the 42PZ800u in the same setting as my Kuro (there will always be a light on in my daughter's room).

For my main displays, I require the best blacks, processing and color accuracy. Currently, that can only be found in the Pioneer Elite Kuros.

So if one prefers color accuracy over black levels and processing....get a 800u.

If one prefers black levels and processing over color accuracy.....get the non-Elite Kuros.

If one wants it all....get a Elite Kuro.

D-Nice,

Are you referring to 8G or 9G Kuros?

D-Nice or anyone who might know,

Any thoughts as to whether the Panny 800u or non-Elite Kuro would have a more effective non-reflective treatment for the screen?

For those who currently own an 8G plasma and often watch movies in OAR have you had any problems with retention or burn in?


Pardon my ignorance (I'm a newbie) but why would black bars on either side of the image cause burn-in? I mean, these pixels aren't on or are on at a very low idle level. How can you burn in black?

On a seperate note, I've been stopping in my local BB and Tweeter stores to check out some of the displays in different environments since I just recently changed my preference to plasma. At BB, there was a 5080 (I think) and a 6010 in proximity of each other along with other displays. The 6010 was dimmer than all the other displays, including the 5080, though I did notice in the BB video loop that the black screen between content was much more grey on the 5080. Perhaps it was just video settings but I thought someone earlier in this thread noted that the 6010 was dimmer than the 5010.

Also, I was at Tweeter looking at a 150D on a DirecTV feed and Las Vegas on TNT-HD had what could best be described as absolutely horrible de-interlacing. Any motion caused large-scale jagged edges (seemed exaggerated to the eye as if some video processing was not set correctly). We're talking jagged edges on the order of an inch or two difference in the alternating lines. The Panasonic on the next wall looked fine. However, the other HD channels did not exhibit this so I figured it wasn't a problem with the TV, maybe just the settings. Odd.

This is exactly how I want to setup my 5020 but I think I read somewhere that you cannot do that. Can someone please confirm if optical out to the receiver will work fine from the tv?
Let me put it this way: I own a Pro-150FD elite, and it *DOES NOT*
output/pass-thru Digital Audio via the Optical/Toslink (hence my little
rant). The only output appears to be stereo.

Don't know if this information was posted yet, but in Europe there will be 3 model series:

(1) The normal "all in one body" 9Gs like 5090 and 6090.
(2) Monitors only.
(3) Monitors with an external MediaReceiver (like in old times).

Don't know if this is specific to Europe?

monitor: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2319/2517275232_40769b08cb_o.jpg
separate: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3187/2517275444_ff26fabc0a_o.jpg

Right now I have all my equipment plug into a cheap surge protector from costco.Should I invest in a power conditioner or a better surge protector? Is there a difference between them? I don't want to fry my 151 when it arrives.
If adding such a high end panel and HT equipment I highly recommend a line conditioner. I've used a Belkin Pure AV PF60 for about 2.5 years now and it works flawlessly and it totally removed some interference I received when we moved into our new home from the sump pump kicking in - removed all such interference and works great for my entire HT setup.

However, don't buy it at a B&M as they'll rip you big time with a 300-400% markup often - rules prohibit me from telling you where to buy but Google it and you'll find your way to it and many others.

APC also has some new HT conditioners also. Most standard Surges don't truly regulate anything - they are a one hit sacrificial lamb in most cases - a line conditioner is working full time.

IMO a surge simply won't cut it with a full fledged HT when you can add a Line Conditioner for a few hundred dollars to protect and regulate the entire system you have many thousands invested in. :)

Pardon my ignorance (I'm a newbie) but why would black bars on either side of the image cause burn-in? I mean, these pixels aren't on or are on at a very low idle level. How can you burn in black?


Presumably it would not be the black that becomes burned it, but rather the pixels after the black ends and the 4:3 picture begins. Also, presumably, after long 4:3 static images, like a DVD menu, or a ticker crawl from SD TV. But again, caveat, I am just a n00b like you. No experience with burn in, and I'm not looking for any either. lol.

Can anyone in the know talk about how good the 9G Anti-IR is and how much we caution is required with 4:3 SD/DVD content? Thanks!

For what it's worth, I have a Pio 5060 that I've pretty much abused after break-in for over two years and not a single instance of burn-in. When I first got the display I lived in fear and freaked out everytime I saw some image retention. Then I decided to relax and enjoy the set. However I have never used 4:3. Use some common sense and you should be okay with any plasma today.

Isn't the color accuracy pretty darn good if not very close to the 800u?Are you speaking of the xx20 series? If so, them not quite. The xx20 series color points will be somewhere in between the 800u (THX mode only) and the 85u.......closer the 800u than the 85u. However, it's not good enough for me. I'm spoiled by the spot on colors of the Elites :D

I wish TOSLINK was given more bandwidth and allowed the HD sound formats. I don't get it. Fiber optic cable is faster than an HDMI cable. So a TOSLINK cable could handle more BW but they limit, why? grrrr. I love optical so much. IMHO video and audio should be dedicated. Not: PS3 HDMI -> audio reciever HDMI -> TV. I mean, huh? Stupid. You need two HDMI cables through an intermediary box. What the difference between two different cables direct? Bah.HDCP

D-Nice,

Are you referring to 8G or 9G Kuros?Both

D-Nice or anyone who might know,

Any thoughts as to whether the Panny 800u or non-Elite Kuro would have a more effective non-reflective treatment for the screen?The Kuros are better.....much better.

Are you speaking of the xx20 series? If so, them not quite. The xx20 series color points will be somewhere in between the 800u (THX mode only) and the 85u.......closer the 800u than the 85u. However, it's not good enough for me. I'm spoiled by the spot on colors of the Elites :D

How would you compare the 6020 if it was professionally calibrated?

How would you compare the 6020 if it was professionally calibrated?Professional calibration isn't going to make the color points equal or better than the 800u.

Professional calibration isn't going to make the color points equal or better than the 800u.

OK, thanks.

It looks like I might just change my 6020 to a 151. :D

So are the "off" color points only on the 85u's? Or was it misinformation I read concerning that too?(I did read they have poor color points, like 700u's)

So are the "off" color points only on the 85u's? Or was it misinformation I read concerning that too?(I did read they have poor color points, like 700u's)They are off on anything lower than the 800u.

Are you speaking of the xx20 series? If so, them not quite. The xx20 series color points will be somewhere in between the 800u (THX mode only) and the 85u.......closer the 800u than the 85u. However, it's not good enough for me. I'm spoiled by the spot on colors of the Elites :D

D-Nice....How were the xx10 and xx80 series compared to the 800u?

D-Nice....How were the xx10 and xx80 series compared to the 800u?Same as the xx20 series.

I know this is off-topic, but I just want to confirm something about the new HD audio streams....to bring them from blu-ray to an HD compatible receiver, is HDMI the only way??? Optical or digital coaxial will not carry HD audio streams? Just curious, nit a big deal as I'm sure most HD receivers have a ton of HDMI inputs anyway.

Thanks guys!

Will the same wall mounts used on the 8G's work for the 9G's?

Professional calibration isn't going to make the color points equal or better than the 800u.

Just to be clear, the 800U in thx mode has better accuracy than any Kuro,
8G, 9G or Elite?


Not to stray, but how is the accuracy (typically) on the NEC's?


bob

Will the same wall mounts used on the 8G's work for the 9G's?

Yes the VESA hole pattern should be identical...

Chris

Just to be clear, the 800U in thx mode has better accuracy than any Kuro,
8G, 9G or Elite?


Not to stray, but how is the accuracy (typically) on the NEC's?


bob

Maybe out of the box, but you will need to adjust the settings to provide more accuracy. The THX settings are designed to give it a more accurate look, but may not suit your taste. Its always best to go through a DVE disc to set your settings or have a local shop provide calibration.

Chris

Just to be clear, the 800U in thx mode has better accuracy than any Kuro,
8G, 9G or Elite?No and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion as I've spoke of specific models. The 800u (THX mode ONLY) has better color accuracy than any non-Elite Kuro. The 800u does NOT have equal or better color accuracy than the Elite Kuros.


Not to stray, but how is the accuracy (typically) on the NEC's?


bobDon't know.

No and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion as I've spoke of specific models. The 800u (THX mode ONLY) has better color accuracy than any non-Elite Kuro. The 800u does NOT have equal or better color accuracy than the Elite Kuros.


Don't know.

Very nice D!

Chris

Please forgive my ignorance, someone a few posts up was talking about the Kuros displaying very thin top and bottom bars with 1:85 to 1 content. Is that true? If so, why? All the other sets I've seen are filling up the screen when displaying that format... Thanks

Please forgive my ignorance, someone a few posts up was talking about the Kuros displaying very thin top and bottom bars with 1:85 to 1 content. Is that true? If so, why? All the other sets I've seen are filling up the screen when displaying that format... ThanksBecause the Kuros have very little overscan and 1.85:1 does not equal 16x9. 16x9 is 1.77:1.

No and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion as I've spoke of specific models. The 800u (THX mode ONLY) has better color accuracy than any non-Elite Kuro. The 800u does NOT have equal or better color accuracy than the Elite Kuros.


.

Now it's clear :)


bob

Now it's clear :)


bob
:)

Just to be clear, the 800U in thx mode has better accuracy than any Kuro,
8G, 9G or Elite?


Not to stray, but how is the accuracy (typically) on the NEC's?


bob

I can't speak to recent NEC's but in the past (say 2006 and before) NEC plasmas had processing and color points that were Pio Elite quality (not the black levels though)

I wish TOSLINK was given more bandwidth and allowed the HD sound formats. I don't get it. Fiber optic cable is faster than an HDMI cable. So a TOSLINK cable could handle more BW but they limit, why? grrrr. I love optical so much. IMHO video and audio should be dedicated. Not: PS3 HDMI -> audio reciever HDMI -> TV. I mean, huh? Stupid. You need two HDMI cables through an intermediary box. What the difference between two different cables direct? Bah.

Actually, the cable does not determine the speed, the transceiver does. While a fiber optic cable is capable of a higher speed for a greater distance than copper, it is the receiver and transmitter that determine speed.

For example, today you can use copper CX4 cables to transmit data at 10Gb with the appropriate transceivers. You can also use fiber optic cables at 1, 2, 4 8 or 10Gb with FC optical transceivers.

One protocol is Fibre Channel and the other is ethernet.

It is my understanding that HDMI 1.3a is now capable of 10Gb which compares to CX4 cables in the ethernet world.

Distance is the key factor. When speed increases, distance decreases. i.e. Ethernet CX4 is limited to 15 meters. Roughly 50 feet.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/PressRoom/Press+Releases/Pioneer+Premium+Bonusview+Blu-ray+Disc+Players+Emulate+True+Theater+Experience

Hello D-Nice and other senior members of the forum,

Can you please tell me if there would be any major difference in PQ or performance between the Pioneer BDP-51FD and Elite BDP-05FD BD players. They have something about 148.5MHz and 297 Mhz mentioned in the pioneer website, but I dont know what those numbers really mean. Is it worth spending the extra money for those features

Also I am getting the pro 151fd and tx-nr905 onkyo receiver and a oppo 980 + a blu-ray player(Brand not decided yet). I was wondering how I should run the cables to get the best results.
-- the plan i have in my mind is to run the hdmi from the blu ray to the TV and and run a optical or coaxial cable from the blu ray player to the nr-905. Would that give me good results or are there any better ways of doing this

I can't speak to recent NEC's but in the past (say 2006 and before) NEC plasmas had processing and color points that were Pio Elite quality (not the black levels though)

That's what I own (Mits) and love it except the Blacks (grays:)


bob

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/PressRoom/Press+Releases/Pioneer+Premium+Bonusview+Blu-ray+Disc+Players+Emulate+True+Theater+Experience

Also I am getting the pro 151fd and tx-nr905 onkyo receiver and a oppo 980 + a blu-ray player(Brand not decided yet). I was wondering how I should run the cables to get the best results.
-- the plan i have in my mind is to run the hdmi from the blu ray to the TV and and run a optical or coaxial cable from the blu ray player to the nr-905. Would that give me good results or are there any better ways of doing this

High resolution audio is transmitted via the HDMI cable, not the optical/coaxial cable. Therefore, you need to run HDMI to a receiver that's capable of playing the audio.

Professional calibration isn't going to make the color points equal or better than the 800u.

Hi, Any idea just how far "off" the color points will be on the 5020 or 6020 vs the 800u? Is it going to be a drastic amount? I am wondering how to make the decision of Black vs Accurate colors. I assume accurate colors is the most important issue when it comes to picture quality am I wrong?

Any info is greatly appreciated Thanks again!

Hi, Any idea just how far "off" the color points will be on the 5020 or 6020 vs the 800u? Is it going to be a drastic amount? I am wondering how to make the decision of Black vs Accurate colors. I assume accurate colors is the most important issue when it comes to picture quality am I wrong?

Any info is greatly appreciated Thanks again!Go look at the reviews of the xx10 series as they will be a reference of what the xx20 series will be.

Because the Kuros have very little overscan and 1.85:1 does not equal 16x9. 16x9 is 1.77:1.

1. So if I understand this correctly, the Kuros are more accurate in that they display the image as it was intended as opposed to other sets that fill the screen when displaying 1.85:1 to 1 to say make up for their inablility to correctly display a given image within the screen area?

2. Which leads me to my next question: if we have black bars with both 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 formats, will there be a higher burn in risk? If so, are there methods to prevent it? I'm new to plasmas and I do want that 151...:)

Thanks in advance...

Pardon my ignorance (I'm a newbie) but why would black bars on either side of the image cause burn-in? I mean, these pixels aren't on or are on at a very low idle level. How can you burn in black?

This phenomenon is commonly known as uneven wear of the phosphors. Plasmas are like CRTs, in that each phosphor pixel has a fixed lifespan, which may be 100,000 hours half-life (probably less since this is the panel rating, not individual pixels). That means that after being on for 100,000 hours, they will be half as bright as new. For sake of argument, let's say you watched 4:3 material exclusively for 100,000 hours, then switched to 16:9 material. The center portion of the screen which is common between the two formats will look half as bright as the edges of the widescreen image which fall outside the 4:3 range. Actually, since your eyes have grown accustomed to the slowly decaying phosphor in the middle, the outer edges will look twice as bright.

There is really no image retention in this scenario, as you can't see what was previously displayed, but you can see the area which was heavily used before (dimmer).

...someone a few posts up was talking about the Kuros displaying very thin top and bottom bars with 1:85 to 1 content.

That's interesting...I thought the whole screen was used for 1.85:1, with the Kuro's. I don't see a line at all and I've been playing 1.85:1 movies to break in my 4280. I guess I haven't been doing a good job of that.

Go look at the reviews of the xx10 series as they will be a reference of what the xx20 series will be.
Hi D-nice

I hope you saw my previous post referenced to your attention ...kindly take a look at it when you get a chance ....


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13937890&postcount=2661

Sets that have a "Dot by Dot" mode will have zero overscan, which means you'll be able to see every pixel in the frame, including the black bars in the "slightly wider than 16x9" 1.85:1 aspect ratio. Only 1080p sets have this "Dot by Dot" mode, 768p models, such as the 4280, don't have any "Dot by Dot" mode.

Thanks HDPeeT!

Let me get this straight, D-Nice, I have preordered a 6020. Are you saying that I would be better off getting a Panny 58" 800U?

Let me get this straight, D-Nice, I have preordered a 6020. Are you saying that I would be better off getting a Panny 58" 800U?

800U = better color accuracy than the NON Elites
5020/6020 = better blacks and processing than the 800U
ELITES > both above.

RobertR1, I can't afford a 60" elite. So, it's down to the 6020 (non elite) or the Panny 58" 800U. Decisions decisions.

RobertR1, I can't afford a 60" elite. So, it's down to the 6020 (non elite) or the Panny 58" 800U. Decisions decisions.

Then I'd look at your normal viewing conditions. If you're in a room with lights on or coming in, the Panasonic's blacks will be just fine. If you're in a dark room, the Pioneer blacks will impress you more.

And remember, at your house you won't really have them both to compare side by side so either one will be good! all said and done.

The only thing that concerns me about the Panasonic, when I had the 85U, it just did not appear as smooth and detailed as Pioneer. I have not seen the 800U's yet. Maybe Dnice can comment on this smooth/detail difference as he knows more.

RobertR1, the reason we're getting a plasma for the living room is because we bought a 42" Panny (75u) plasma for the bedroom and we said "whoa! this beats 50" the lcd rptv in the living room!). So we wanted to get a plasma for the living room with a bigger screen (58" or 60"). I was going to get a panny 58-700u, but wanted more hdmi inputs (the 700u only has 2).

The new panny 58-800u has 4 hdmi, but after reading the pioneer threads here in the forums, everyone seems to think the pioneers have an even better pic than the panny. So, we decided to stretch the budget to go for the 6020, but that's already stretching our budget. I wish I could afford an elite. We're going to have to keep this tv for a loooong time, so I want to get the better of the 2.

Thanks for your advice.

darthemma i think the pioneer is a better choice, but D nice would it be better for darthemma to get the 8g 60" elite or the 9g non elite price factor?


well the burn in and the image retentation will always be put on us by the lcd oweners, burn in is almost impossible as you would not put it on 2:35:1 for 2days non stop right? then dont be consern, Image retentation goes away almost instantly, just break in the tv and u'll be fine.

Pardon my ignorance (I'm a newbie) but why would black bars on either side of the image cause burn-in? I mean, these pixels aren't on or are on at a very low idle level. How can you burn in black?

On a seperate note, I've been stopping in my local BB and Tweeter stores to check out some of the displays in different environments since I just recently changed my preference to plasma. At BB, there was a 5080 (I think) and a 6010 in proximity of each other along with other displays. The 6010 was dimmer than all the other displays, including the 5080, though I did notice in the BB video loop that the black screen between content was much more grey on the 5080. Perhaps it was just video settings but I thought someone earlier in this thread noted that the 6010 was dimmer than the 5010.

Also, I was at Tweeter looking at a 150D on a DirecTV feed and Las Vegas on TNT-HD had what could best be described as absolutely horrible de-interlacing. Any motion caused large-scale jagged edges (seemed exaggerated to the eye as if some video processing was not set correctly). We're talking jagged edges on the order of an inch or two difference in the alternating lines. The Panasonic on the next wall looked fine. However, the other HD channels did not exhibit this so I figured it wasn't a problem with the TV, maybe just the settings. Odd.


exactly!


For what it's worth, I have a Pio 5060 that I've pretty much abused after break-in for over two years and not a single instance of burn-in. When I first got the display I lived in fear and freaked out everytime I saw some image retention. Then I decided to relax and enjoy the set. However I have never used 4:3. Use some common sense and you should be okay with any plasma today.

No and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion as I've spoke of specific models. The 800u (THX mode ONLY) has better color accuracy than any non-Elite Kuro. The 800u does NOT have equal or better color accuracy than the Elite Kuros.

Just to be clear so nobody else gets confused, you're talking about THX mode
only which means the colour accuracy is due to a reference feature of the
800u which the non-elites don't have (kinda like how the 750u was last year,
in other words Panasonic's version of a colorspace2-like palette). Am I correct?

D-Nice,



Should I:

A) grab one of the close out 8G elite -1150s (my seating distance is ~13')
B) go for one of the remaining 8G 5010s
C) wait for the 9G 5020

Springing for BOTH a -111 and 151 is simply not in the financial cards.

Any suggestions?

KDD

How much will the 8G's be marked down once the 9G's hit the streets? How much were the 7Gs marked down when the 8Gs took over?
I apologize in advance if this isn't kosher on this site, but where would one get an unused 8G once the 9Gs are sold retail. I won't be in the market for a tv until late Aug/early Sep, so I imagine the 9Gs will be primarily what is available.

***Edit: sorry, I now see that there is a "no price talk" rule here---if you happen to know the answer to my question and wouldn't mind PM'ing me, I'd really appreciate it all the same. Thanks and sorry for breaking the rules.

How much will the 8G's be marked down once the 9G's hit the streets? How much were the 7Gs marked down when the 8Gs took over?
I apologize in advance if this isn't kosher on this site, but where would one get an unused 8G once the 9Gs are sold retail. I won't be in the market for a tv until late Aug/early Sep, so I imagine the 9Gs will be primarily what is available.
My advice would be that if you want an 8G, buy it now. Last year, if I recall,
the 7G price reduction was mainly before the 8G release (to clear stock).

Now, for the 8G, we've already seen dramatic price reductions, and for many
stores, they are clearing out fast. Stuff like the 5080 & 4280 are basically
impossible to find, while the 5010/6010 price drops have made them the thing
to get now. The elite dealers, on the other hand, seem to be taking their
sweet times in price reductions, so my guess is after the 9G comes out, they
will hopefully be more aggressive on their prices. Here in Canada, there was
word that the 150FD's MSRP dropped to $6500 (unsure of that one), but
I'd check first.

IMHO, if you decide to wait until the 9G is released before you get an 8G TV,
then your best bet is shoot for the elite. If you're not into purchasing the
elite, then the time to buy is now.

Actually, the cable does not determine the speed, the transceiver does. While a fiber optic cable is capable of a higher speed for a greater distance than copper, it is the receiver and transmitter that determine speed.

For example, today you can use copper CX4 cables to transmit data at 10Gb with the appropriate transceivers. You can also use fiber optic cables at 1, 2, 4 8 or 10Gb with FC optical transceivers.

One protocol is Fibre Channel and the other is ethernet.

It is my understanding that HDMI 1.3a is now capable of 10Gb which compares to CX4 cables in the ethernet world.

Distance is the key factor. When speed increases, distance decreases. i.e. Ethernet CX4 is limited to 15 meters. Roughly 50 feet.

Yeah, it's the transceiver. To get the new HDMI 1.3a sound and video protocol needs a new cable in order to support the 10 gigabit. The current TOSLINK cables as is can support 10 gigabit and more. Plus you can go longer distances like you said without a repeater. The real pirates in Hong Kong aren't even bypassing HDCP ( thanks D-Nice ) and stealing the content they sell by recording the raw stream. So this whole HDCP isn't about "stealing" it's about control. Just like how region CONTROL controls when, how and where you can view movies. I really wish the companies like Pioneer and the consumer were able to decide what they want, rather than comply with someone who has no idea what they're doing, just because they want to feel special.

Hmmm, looking at the cut sheet it looks like not only have they bailed out on CableCard but also ditched the TVGOS as well. That feature isn't listed either. Just as well, actually. TVGOS is fine when it works but when it doesn't...

I'm guessing that no CableCard and the removal of TVGOS are related.

I went to BB today and spent about an hour comparing the Panny 800u to the Pioneer 5010 as I was lucky enough to see them mounted on a wall side by side. I was given both remotes and had free reign over the two. My wife was a little upset because I was taking so long, oh well. After placing the 800u in THX and tweaking the 5010 to Dnice's setting there was no doubt to me, my wife and the BB employee, oh yeah and another couple checking them out that the 5010 definitly had a better looking picture. However I can say that it was pretty close. The color difference was not noticable to none of us. However eveyone did say the picture looked sharper and dark scenes looked better on the 5010. Which pretty much solidifies my decision on getting a 5020.

Imagine if you actually calibrate with actual settings for that particular TV (as opposed using another person's 5010 setting), it'll be much more accurate, thus being much better.

xb1032...I also had the 5080 for just less than a month to compare to.

The SXRDs have been very problematic and one display may different than another. Honestly it doesn't matter anyway. Unless LG comes out with the infinite black plasma (and performs well in other areas) this year I'll likely get a 6020 :). Just forget I said anything. I meant no harm :).

You may be 100% correct on panel to panel differences.

RobertR1, I can't afford a 60" elite. So, it's down to the 6020 (non elite) or the Panny 58" 800U. Decisions decisions.

I'd consider how much black levels are important to you. I compared a 50" 800U to a 5010 the other day at BB and while the 800U was a little bit brighter I could still tell a fair amount of difference in black levels (and this was with the overhead lighting not too far off. So for evening viewing I'd bet the 6020 is going to have a bit more richer color and quite a bit better blacks than the 800U.

I'd like to get the Elite as well but since I like to upgrade each year, personally I'll save the $1k+ and put it towards the next years model TV (or something else). Now when an 80" infinite black Elite is available in that price range, then hmmm...... ;)

darthemma,

If i was in your position the best option would be the pioneer pro 150fd.

Its about $1000 more than the 5010. Im pretty sure you can pull $1000 cant you buddy???

MSRP on tweeter website is $5200.

Wouldnt be surprised at all if you can grab it for under $5000 considering the fact that pro 151fd is coming soon. Should be easy to bargain them down to $4500.

Just pointing out that for a little more cash you can get a much better product(pioneer pro 150fd.)....

1. So if I understand this correctly, the Kuros are more accurate in that they display the image as it was intended as opposed to other sets that fill the screen when displaying 1.85:1 to 1 to say make up for their inablility to correctly display a given image within the screen area?

2. Which leads me to my next question: if we have black bars with both 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 formats, will there be a higher burn in risk? If so, are there methods to prevent it? I'm new to plasmas and I do want that 151...:)

Thanks in advance...

I was the one that made the comments about the thin lines while playing 1.85:1 movies. Intersting to me that some found that interesting. I've been a projectionist at several movie theaters and I'm very aware of aspect ratios. My current set's overscan is so bad that even 2.35:1 movies don't have much black lines above and below so I'm missing a lot of movie detail. That's why I'm really excited about getting my new Elite with Dot by Dot mode.

Anyway to help answer your question,

"the Kuros are more accurate in that they display the image as it was intended" Yes, however from what I've been reading, I think it's only the Elites that have Dot by Dot (zero overscan) mode. The regular Kuros "may" not have that feature and "may" have a tiny bit of overscan. Even if the regular Kuros have a tiny bit of overscan, for most TVs, a little bit or some overscan is normal.

"will there be a higher burn in risk? If so, are there methods to prevent it?"

Your risk is not any higher from playing movies that are 1.85:1, 2.35:1 or even 4:3 video. What is different is the amount of area that may get burn in. What I like to do (and I'm sure others may do things differently) "I" usually play full frame video (1.78:1) for twice as long AFTER playing a movie or any video source that has any black around the borders. This "may" help even out the wear. Others may or may not agree as this being a good thing to do.

However one thing you don't want to do is ALWAYS play 4:3, 1.85:1 or 2.35:1 WITHOUT at least mixing it up with some full frame video. Otherwise you will probably get burn in.

Also, try to stay away from channels that have scrolling bars along the bottom. It's ok to watch those channels, however your running a risk if you have it set on a channel like that 24 hours a day every day!

"the Kuros are more accurate in that they display the image as it was intended" Yes, however from what I've been reading, I think it's only the Elites that have Dot by Dot (zero overscan) mode. The regular Kuros "may" not have that feature and "may" have a tiny bit of overscan. Even if the regular Kuros have a tiny bit of overscan, for most TVs, a little bit or some overscan is normal.



All the 1080p models from last year had "Dot by Dot" mode (Standard and Elite), the 768p models did not. All the models this year are 1080p, and they'll all have "Dot by Dot".

Sorry, away on vacation, so haven't read anything and haven't responded to PMs. Not sure if this has been posted, but I believe people have been asking about current power ratings during standby. The 8G standy was about 26W, the 9Gs in standby should be about .2W, thus the engergy star rating.

Will read PMs later.

Russ

wow thanks russ so i guess the 9g waste less power then my current panasonic TH-42px75u... and i thought panasonic was energy saving ....

its about 387 watts i belive and standby 0.2 which i was in shock that stanby was 23 or so watts for an 8g on standby....:eek:?

oh well im getting a pro-111FD 9g :D

The 8G standy was about 26W, the 9Gs in standby should be about .2W, thus the engergy star rating.

Will read PMs later.

Russ

http://www.performanceprobe.com/forum/images/smilies/shocked.gif I can't believe the 8Gs used that much juice in standby!

First and foremost, the 42PZ800u that I'm purchasing isn't going to be one of my main displays. It's going to my daughter. Second, for what it's going to be used for, I would rather sacrifice a hit in black levels for more accurate colors. I will never watch the 42PZ800u in the same setting as my Kuro (there will always be a light on in my daughter's room).

For my main displays, I require the best blacks, processing and color accuracy. Currently, that can only be found in the Pioneer Elite Kuros.

So if one prefers color accuracy over black levels and processing....get a 800u.

If one prefers black levels and processing over color accuracy.....get the non-Elite Kuros.

If one wants it all....get a Elite Kuro.

Jeez.. paste that as a sticky or something. I have a feeling this is an important post.

Are you speaking of the xx20 series? If so, them not quite. The xx20 series color points will be somewhere in between the 800u (THX mode only) and the 85u.......closer the 800u than the 85u. However, it's not good enough for me. I'm spoiled by the spot on colors of the Elites :D

I am still beating myself in the head trying to figure out if I want the 6020 or the 151.
On one hand I think I should get the 6010 and buy a bose or Onkyo surround sound system with the extra money since I currently have no stereo system for my TV at all.
But then on the other hand I wonder if I shoulld just get the 151 and buy a cheap walmart sound system to go with the TV.
ohh man decisions decisions. But I think I am like you and will be happy and spoiled with an elite.

I know I am getting off subject a little so please forgive me but I want to ask for some of you guys advise.
I currently live in an apartment and have been wanting to get a house. I just got pre-approved for the mortgage but there are closing costs that equal to the amount I have saved for my 9G Kuro. So I have a horrible decision to make. I can get the house and no Kuro (and be stuck with this stinkin Phillips plasma I have right now), or I can get my new Kuro and wait until next year to get a house.
What would you do?
I live alone (no kids or family) so its not crucial that I get the house right away.
But still I have to decide, House or Kuro.

when will we start seeing these kuros on amazons website?

Gees tough call.... To be honest my initial reaction the second I read the paragraph was "Don't be silly, get the house". Then when I thought about it for another minute, once you have the house, you may find yourself having to having to save for repairs, renovations, appliances, lawnmower, etc.. etc... (and unexpected costs), at that rate you might be without a good TV for years and years. If you already have a good TV when you get a house, you can focus on saving for other costs. Also you'll be able to get the last Pio with glass made in-house, and these prices are quite a drop compared to last year. Plus you'll have a kick-ass TV while you're saving ;)

Tough call.... but you might want to get the TV, unless you're pretty sure housing prices are going to go up in the next year.

-Coggs

P.S. I would get an elite, and wait for a kick-ass sale on a receiver, and then gradually piece together a stereo system. It's on-board speakers should be ok for an apartment (for a while).

one guy's take on 9G...

" Even the hardened AV Press who attended the demo today, gave a quick inhalation of breath as the wraps were taken off the 9G screen (which was playing the same footage as an 8G next to it.) "

"It is safe to say that the new PDP-LX5090 and 6090 panels improve again in overall contrast and black levels over the 8G and personally I would agree with the estimated 5 times better quotes from the Pioneer GB staff."

as per the british site

So Chadmak, you're asking strangers on this Forum to help you make major personal decisions in your life?? Geeez, you've just raised the bar on the usual mundane pricing questions regarding "is the Elite worth the extra money?". Let me flip a coin. Heads for the house, tails for the Plasma. Nope, can't do it. You're just going to have to make this big decision all on your own...

PS: I will give you one piece of advice. Whatever you do, do NOT buy a Bose HT system!:D

I know I am getting off subject a little so please forgive me but I want to ask for some of you guys advise.
I currently live in an apartment and have been wanting to get a house. I just got pre-approved for the mortgage but there are closing costs that equal to the amount I have saved for my 9G Kuro. So I have a horrible decision to make. I can get the house and no Kuro (and be stuck with this stinkin Phillips plasma I have right now), or I can get my new Kuro and wait until next year to get a house.
What would you do?
I live alone (no kids or family) so its not crucial that I get the house right away.
But still I have to decide, House or Kuro.

If you love the house and feel you have a good deal, buy the house now, use your income tax return next year (from your points, property taxes, school taxes, interest) to buy a 10G. As everyone says, you will be busy painting rooms, renovating the downstairs bathroom, finishing off the basement (maybe for a projection system), finding that special someone...you won't have time to watch tv or movies. However, given that you can even pose the question, I wonder how much you truly want to own a home? It's a real commitment. For me, it was 'new roof' or 'Stickley diningroom/livingroom'. I got the new roof. Make sure you buy a house with a good roof so you don't have to choose between it and an Elite.

Now, years later, I am looking at the 111, but have very outdated AV equipment and no blu-ray. One thing at a time. But remember, as every minute passes, you are that much closer to death. Live now!

I will give you one piece of advice. Whatever you do, do NOT buy a Bose HT system!:D

I agree 110%... Stay without a sound system for now and get something other than Bose down the line... The Elite's speakers will work fine until you get a sound system...

http://www.performanceprobe.com/forum/images/smilies/shocked.gif I can't believe the 8Gs used that much juice in standby!

I have gear that uses that much in standby....I don't understand it either. I had read an article sayingyou should unplug all of your electronic appliances daily when not in use.
Sounds good in theory, but who's going to do that.

I've seen D-Nice's reply about choosing between the Panny800 and the current Pio fare--thanks for that clear explanation.

Light:
How much light does there have to be before it has a profound impact on the display? I can't imagine watching any display in total darkness. I get a headache if I do that with my SD tv, so turn on a very dim lamp (4 watt shaded fluorescent) that sits close to the floor. Do people really watch these in total darkness?

Processing:
Assuming I have a 111, the current thought is that for any SD content, I want to pass the unprocessed data through to the Elite and let that excellent processor do the work. Do we know if when using a Pio BD the SD content can be passed unprocessed to the Elite panel?

What about the AV receiver? I see many that talk about their chip sets and how they can process the video before handing it off to a display. If the Elite display is going to do my video processing, with what kind of receiver can I get by? I don't want to spend over $1k for something that I will use only for sound.

Bottom line, assuming I invest in the Elite panel with its superior processing, what compromises can I make with Blu-ray (for both HD and SD discs) and AV receiver?

Thanks, in advance, for constructive comments.

darthemma,

If i was in your position the best option would be the pioneer pro 150fd.

Its about $1000 more than the 5010. Im pretty sure you can pull $1000 cant you buddy???

MSRP on tweeter website is $5200.

Wouldnt be surprised at all if you can grab it for under $5000 considering the fact that pro 151fd is coming soon. Should be easy to bargain them down to $4500.

Just pointing out that for a little more cash you can get a much better product(pioneer pro 150fd.)....

Jerry:
The thing is I have already pulled an extra $1000 to go from the Panny to the Pioneer 6020. I can't stretch anymore.

I think there is a whole thread somewhere on bias and accent lighting. You don't have to watch in total darkness. I am not sure on the kuros, but with my current tv the key is to avoid lighting that causes reflections on the glass.

I've seen D-Nice's reply about choosing between the Panny800 and the current Pio fare--thanks for that clear explanation.

Light:
How much light does there have to be before it has a profound impact on the display? I can't imagine watching any display in total darkness. I get a headache if I do that with my SD tv, so turn on a very dim lamp (4 watt shaded fluorescent) that sits close to the floor. Do people really watch these in total darkness?

Processing:
Assuming I have a 111, the current thought is that for any SD content, I want to pass the unprocessed data through to the Elite and let that excellent processor do the work. Do we know if when using a Pio BD the SD content can be passed unprocessed to the Elite panel?

What about the AV receiver? I see many that talk about their chip sets and how they can process the video before handing it off to a display. If the Elite display is going to do my video processing, with what kind of receiver can I get by? I don't want to spend over $1k for something that I will use only for sound.

Bottom line, assuming I invest in the Elite panel with its superior processing, what compromises can I make with Blu-ray (for both HD and SD discs) and AV receiver?

Thanks, in advance, for constructive comments.

For lighting, you might want to check into the Ideal-Lume panel light. I too get headaches from watching TV in the total dark. Also, painting the wall behind the display is helpful. There are other AVS forums on these topics.

Pioneer has claimed special system integration with its new Receivers and BD Players when matched to the Kuro displays. There seems to be very little info on this, and I guess we are going to have to wait for these products to actually hit the stores before getting some in-depth reviews. Currently, I do not own a BD Player and my receiver needs updating so I'm in the market for the full HT banana.

I am still beating myself in the head trying to figure out if I want the 6020 or the 151.
On one hand I think I should get the 6010 and buy a bose or Onkyo surround sound system with the extra money since I currently have no stereo system for my TV at all.
But then on the other hand I wonder if I shoulld just get the 151 and buy a cheap walmart sound system to go with the TV.
ohh man decisions decisions. But I think I am like you and will be happy and spoiled with an elite.

I know I am getting off subject a little so please forgive me but I want to ask for some of you guys advise.
I currently live in an apartment and have been wanting to get a house. I just got pre-approved for the mortgage but there are closing costs that equal to the amount I have saved for my 9G Kuro. So I have a horrible decision to make. I can get the house and no Kuro (and be stuck with this stinkin Phillips plasma I have right now), or I can get my new Kuro and wait until next year to get a house.
What would you do?
I live alone (no kids or family) so its not crucial that I get the house right away.
But still I have to decide, House or Kuro.

IMHO, I think you should get the house now and TV later. Prices are great right now. I just bought a house because I know that prices are already starting to go up and buying activity is on the rise. When you get to financing the house, get yourself a line of credit. Once you're in the house and confortable, use the low interest line of credit to buy a 9G and take a year to pay it off. By that time, prices may be down as well. Good luck.

when will we start seeing these kuros on amazons website?

They will list the non Elites but it will probably be in a couple of weeks.

Here's some news that I believe people should be greatly interested!

Spoke to one of my contacts and the 6020's allocations are done and are to arrive on Tuesday.

IT'S 9G TIME!!!!

Here's some news that I believe people should be greatly interested!

Spoke to one of my contacts and the 6020's allocations are done and are to arrive on Tuesday.

IT'S 9G TIME!!!!

WOW, that is fantastic news!!!!!!
I wasn't expecting them to ship for another 4 weeks.

Even with all the complaints about not having the ability to adjust some of the picture settings, I have no regrets about preordering a 6020.

cool. thanks!

We're still talking August for the elite 151 release right?

But still I have to decide, House or Kuro.

As much as I want to tell you to get the tv, (it is a 9g Kuro after all) the house is the wiser choice. Stop paying rent and start earning equity. Even in today's slow market, the house is a much better investment.

On a different note, it's time to fire up the grill and pop open some frosty cold beers. Have a great Memorial weekend everyone!!http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/69.gif

Here's some news that I believe people should be greatly interested!

Spoke to one of my contacts and the 6020's allocations are done and are to arrive on Tuesday.

IT'S 9G TIME!!!!

So when will D-Nice be able to obtain a xx20 and give us a professional review? :)

I live alone (no kids or family) so its not crucial that I get the house right away.
But still I have to decide, House or Kuro.

Ha! I'm in a similar situation but luckily I can handle both. Still, you should go
for the house first. In my case, I bought a brand new home, and I had to
choose between certain upgrades that are important to me, and the TV. Well,
I chose the upgrades ($5K worth) since this is my only chance to have them
done (eg: Structural stuff - adding windows, and such). Luckily, the closing
on my home is in January, which means I have ample time to save up and do
some overtime at work so I should be fine for the TV as well.

So Chadmak, you're asking strangers on this Forum to help you make major personal decisions in your life?? Geeez, you've just raised the bar on the usual mundane pricing questions regarding "is the Elite worth the extra money?". Let me flip a coin. Heads for the house, tails for the Plasma. Nope, can't do it. You're just going to have to make this big decision all on your own...


I asked because I was wondering what other A/V enthusiasts would do in my situation. Ultimatly I will do what I want to do but I value others opinion. especially on this forum.
If you have some kind of issue with that then just go right past my post and on to the next and please keep your negative remarks to yourself.
I never have understood why some have nothing but negative comments and wait for any opportunity to slam people when they have questions and want opinions.
All it does is turn new people away and make them afraid to ask questions in fear or someone like you jumping on with your negativity.
Geeez yourself, take a chill pill or something.

Here's some news that I believe people should be greatly interested!

Spoke to one of my contacts and the 6020's allocations are done and are to arrive on Tuesday.

IT'S 9G TIME!!!!

anything on the 5020's?

Also you'll be able to get the last Pio with glass made in-house, and these prices are quite a drop compared to last year. Plus you'll have a kick-ass TV while you're saving ;) .

I see lots of posts like this that either infer or state directly that next year's Pios are going to be inferior because Panny will be making Pio's glass. I seriously doubt this. In fact, I'm betting the glass will be even better.

According to Pio, the new glass will be made according to Pio's specifications and standards, and Pio is sending a hundred-plus of it's engineers and techs to Panny's glass plant to assure this is done. Some pessimists will say that Pio is lying or that this will never happen, but I'm much more optimistic than that. Am I too optimistic? Maybe. We'll see.

I am still beating myself in the head trying to figure out if I want the 6020 or the 151.
On one hand I think I should get the 6010 and buy a bose or Onkyo surround sound system with the extra money since I currently have no stereo system for my TV at all.
But then on the other hand I wonder if I shoulld just get the 151 and buy a cheap walmart sound system to go with the TV.
ohh man decisions decisions. But I think I am like you and will be happy and spoiled with an elite.

I know I am getting off subject a little so please forgive me but I want to ask for some of you guys advise.
I currently live in an apartment and have been wanting to get a house. I just got pre-approved for the mortgage but there are closing costs that equal to the amount I have saved for my 9G Kuro. So I have a horrible decision to make. I can get the house and no Kuro (and be stuck with this stinkin Phillips plasma I have right now), or I can get my new Kuro and wait until next year to get a house.
What would you do?
I live alone (no kids or family) so its not crucial that I get the house right away. But still I have to decide, House or Kuro.

OK ... you asked, so here's my advice. Get the house while the housing market is in the toilet. I guarantee you that houses and land are going up in costs, but plasmas are going to get cheaper and cheaper. So woe is you ... you'll have a new home but have to suffer with a Phillips plasma. Man, what a problem. But you'll get no sympathy from the millions of homeless Burmese and Chinese. FWIW ....

I see lots of posts like this that either infer or state directly that next year's Pios are going to be inferior because Panny will be making Pio's glass. I seriously doubt this. In fact, I'm betting the glass will be even better.

According to Pio, the new glass will be made according to Pio's specifications and standards, and Pio is sending a hundred-plus of it's engineers and techs to Panny's glass plant to assure this is done. Some pessimists will say that Pio is lying or that this will never happen, but I'm much more optimistic than that. Am I too optimistic? Maybe. We'll see.

Agreed. I think it's possible we'll see ECC plasmas and even lower prices next year from Pio with the Panasonic glass.

And to the guy who needs a sound system - don't buy a Bose dude. For the same amount of money you can do way better.

I asked because I was wondering what other A/V enthusiasts would do in my situation. Ultimatly I will do what I want to do but I value others opinion. especially on this forum.
If you have some kind of issue with that then just go right past my post and on to the next and please keep your negative remarks to yourself.
I never have understood why some have nothing but negative comments and wait for any opportunity to slam people when they have questions and want opinions.
All it does is turn new people away and make them afraid to ask questions in fear or someone like you jumping on with your negativity.
Geeez yourself, take a chill pill or something.

Buy the house man, the sooner you buy a house the sooner you are investing in equity. Rent is a waste of money....the sooner in life you can buy a house the better. Hey don't get me wrong, TVs are a great thing and these Pioneers are something special, but this is a luxury item. Buy a house now, markets are down and you can always do a 2 year equal payments no interest deal on a TV later on if it's too tough to save up 4 or 5 grand cash. I bought my house the first chance I got and in 4 years I will be 33 years old with no mortgage.

So woe is you ... you'll have to suffer with a Phillips plasma. Man, what a problem. I'm sure the Burmese would feel real sorry for you. FWIW.

HAHAHA
QFT

Plus, this is NOT a purchase option opinion thread.
So let's stay on-topic.

Chadmak, no beef dude...get a house, or get a plasma, or get both...just DON'T get a Bose!:D

For anyone to give you informed advice on this issue, we'll need to see house plans, land w/house, adjacent property values & taxes, price offered, local mortgage rates, timber & mineral rights, school districts, etc., etc., etc....That's enough thread clutter for now.

We're still talking August for the elite 151 release right?

Last I read it is late June or July for the 151's ... either way, an update on their release would be appreciated.

OT: SC-07 and BDP-05FD still August?

Thanks

I see from another thread you believe the TH-50PZ800U will have better colors than the 5020, but not compare in other areas, (black level, contrast, processing I think you mentioned).

I also see that you will be getting an 800 yourself.

What's your take on importance of each set's strengths, comparatively?
(If that makes any sense at all!?:D)

I had a 46PZ800U for 12 days and just returned it and pre-ordered the 5020. It was a tough call and I debated over and over about it because the 800 is not bad at all. At first I thought it was bad as I had just returned a Pio 110 that I bought at BB but had to return because $5K was too much for me. Anyway, over the 12 days I found I liked the 800 more and more, but it's weak points:

1. Anti-reflective screen is horrible. It's not anti-reflective at all IMHO.
2. Contrast - I think the contrast is really off in many shows that I watched. I constantly found myself wanting to twiddle with the settings based on the content I was watching which was a pain.
3. On some HD channels there was an annoying single pixel orange line down either the left or right side of the screen.
4. Color was very good.
5. Sound was very, very good.
6. Ran very cool.
7. THX mode by default is not good as they have it set to Warm colors so I don't know why D-Nice is saying 800 THX color is better than 5020. Did D-Nice change from Warm to Normal color temperature and/or make any other mods to the default THX settings?

Either one would be good, but I believe the 5020 will be better overall. It better be or my wife will kill me! This is my 4th set. Sony 46XBR4 (hated LCD immediately), Pio 110 (awesome, couldn't afford), Panny 46800U, and now the 5020.

Best of luck choosing.

Bobby

Ultimatly I will do what I want to do but I value others opinion. especially on this forum.

I would buy the house in a second over the plasma. Even with a modest audio system + subwoofer, you will be able to crank it and enjoy it much more than if you have neighbors on the other side of the wall, ceiling, or floor. Ditto with 2am movie watching.

You can also dig into the walls for wiring, bolt whatever you want wherever you want, make your dream theater over several years, etc etc. YOU are the owner (well, the bank is, but long as you don't destroy it they don't care). And in 20 or 30 years, presumably when you're retiring, you really will be the owner and will never have to pay monthly again. Apartment living sucks IMO.

Chad,

Get the house, you won't regret it on the long run... Just no Bose!!

Go look at the reviews of the xx10 series as they will be a reference of what the xx20 series will be.

So you are saying that 5020 and 5010 will have the exact same color, nothing has changed in that regard from 8g to 9g? If so, how do you know this?

If they are exactly the same, you are saying the color on the 5020 will not be as good as the 800U. Again, I would like to know how you can categorically say this. Did you run tests side-by-side or in some other manner?

I just returned my 46800U and pre-ordered a 5020, so I'm very interested in this discussion. I hope it's not just speculation and you have hard data to prove you point.

Thanks,
Bobby

For anyone to give you informed advice on this issue, we'll need to see house plans, land w/house, adjacent property values & taxes, price offered, local mortgage rates, timber & mineral rights, school districts, etc., etc., etc....That's enough thread clutter for now.

I agree, too vague a question to ask in a forum like this.

Bottom line is real estate is local. Some areas are already turning up or never dropped (NYC [foreigners], Milwaukee [never had a 'bubble'], Austin [oil & gas] ... some have a long way to drop (Miami & Las Vegas [bubbled to the MAX], Southern California [income to price discrepancy], Detroit [crappy economy])

Saying to "just buy, don't rent" is generically bad advice in this economy. Look at your local economy and housing market, and then figure how many years you will own the house ... then talk to a local Real Estate Agent (and take what they say with a grain of salt ... they are hard up for commissions right now ;))

Don't buy the house! Now is probably the worst time to buy since the US economy is going into a recession and house prices are plummeting! With the sub-prime mortgage mess, bankruptcies and forclosures left and right, it would be wise to wait a bit til house prices drop to their bottom. The hundreds and thousands that you save by holding out could buy you a bunch of Kuros and high end sound system.

Don't buy the house! Now is probably the worst time to buy since the US economy is going into a recession and house prices are plummeting! With the sub-prime mortgage mess, bankruptcies and forclosures left and right, it would be wise to wait a bit til house prices drop to their bottom. The hundreds and thousands that you save by holding out could buy you a bunch of Kuros and high end sound system.

One could argue both sides, but it's obviously a question of priorities. Either way, it's his money -- he has to decide what he wants to do with it.

next silly question: everyone seems so down on the inability of the 6020 to be fiddleable. having the ability to tinker would seem to be of value primarily if Pioneer has bad preset values. are the Pioneer parameters (that are preset in the 6020) pretty darn good to begin with, so fiddling would not do that much good anyway? or are they pretty darn bad, so fiddling would do much good?

^ The million dollar question. No one will know until it's available.

Here's some news that I believe people should be greatly interested!

Spoke to one of my contacts and the 6020's allocations are done and are to arrive on Tuesday.

IT'S 9G TIME!!!!

So am I understanding you wrong or are you saying that the 6020's will be arriving at some dealers as soon as tuesday??

APio is sending a hundred-plus of it's engineers and techs to Panny's glass plant to assure this is done.

Source ??

I would buy the house in a second over the plasma.

Maybe. But get one with a wall in the family room big enough for the 60" Kuro ....

next silly question: everyone seems so down on the inability of the 6020 to be fiddleable. having the ability to tinker would seem to be of value primarily if Pioneer has bad preset values. are the Pioneer parameters (that are preset in the 6020) pretty darn good to begin with, so fiddling would not do that much good anyway? or are they pretty darn bad, so fiddling would do much good?

Remains to be seen. Some are hoping Pioneer nailed it ... but given the diversity of opinions about settings I'm not sure there is ONE 'IT'...

Movie mode with DRE off and gamma 1 and all noise settings on ... thats one tough 0-2 count on which to hit a HR IMO

Don't buy the house! Now is probably the worst time to buy since the US economy is going into a recession and house prices are plummeting! With the sub-prime mortgage mess, bankruptcies and forclosures left and right, it would be wise to wait a bit til house prices drop to their bottom. The hundreds and thousands that you save by holding out could buy you a bunch of Kuros and high end sound system.

We are in recession and prices will fall (deflation) when the current inflationary period has run its course. But at the same time, interest rates will rise. So, buy now and lock in a low interest rate? Or buy later at a lower price but pay more interest. Depends on the individual market and financial situation.

Source ??

HERE (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080425/151054/)

And here (http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2008/04/22/afx4916183.html)

Pioneer will transfer about 200 researchers to Panasonic. It's all over the internet.

http://www.topnews.in/pioneer-cut-2-000-jobs-sluggish-plasma-display-business-241397Source ??


http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080425/151054/

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080425/151054/

:D Beat you to it.

:D Beat you to it.

Congratulations. I concede. I will support your nomination. I was hoping to be the first to shatter the glass ceiling.:D:D;)

Congratulations. I concede. I will support your nomination. I was hoping to be the first to shatter the glass ceiling.:D:D;)

http://www.performanceprobe.com/forum/images/smilies/bravo.gif

So am I understanding you wrong or are you saying that the 6020's will be arriving at some dealers as soon as tuesday??

Has this been confirmed????

Cory

Get the house today and stay off this board until next year and then get the 10G infinite black plasma next year ;).

D-Nice,

I have a Pioneer DV-59avi that I could match up with an Elite 151. Would 480i HDMI via a 59avi be one of the best SD-DVD options for a 151? Is the deinterlacing improved over the 150?

i dont think they will be out on tuesday. i think we will be able to buy them late next month.

In same boat.Bought a great condo at good interest rate but now have to wait till next year for the 10g when my bank account gets healthy.I now have a small 8.5 by 9.5 windowless room with amazing acoustics waiting to build my 10g mini theater in.The payback is my condo has free use of a 25 seat 12 ft screen HD movie theater and im going to have my 5 year old 433cmx mounted over my fireplace.Hope this will keep me happy during the long wait for the 10g

well herbaled you might take the risk but i among others will not, think about it if your theory is true then we'll simply upgrade or wait for ecc or something, but god forbid its worse then it will be too late! so again im upgrading to the very best in pioneer in house before the merge so im waiting for PRO-111FD

I see lots of posts like this that either infer or state directly that next year's Pios are going to be inferior because Panny will be making Pio's glass. I seriously doubt this. In fact, I'm betting the glass will be even better.

According to Pio, the new glass will be made according to Pio's specifications and standards, and Pio is sending a hundred-plus of it's engineers and techs to Panny's glass plant to assure this is done. Some pessimists will say that Pio is lying or that this will never happen, but I'm much more optimistic than that. Am I too optimistic? Maybe. We'll see.

ivo welch i gotta agree to you and be hold on d-nice they (pioneer) had to nail it to a point where its not nessary for the adjustment, so im going to take a breather on d-nice and go along the ride and wish for the non elite buyers to get better pq then 8g oweners.... we just have to wait to find out

next silly question: everyone seems so down on the inability of the 6020 to be fiddleable. having the ability to tinker would seem to be of value primarily if Pioneer has bad preset values. are the Pioneer parameters (that are preset in the 6020) pretty darn good to begin with, so fiddling would not do that much good anyway? or are they pretty darn bad, so fiddling would do much good?

Wow, being gone for a week you miss a lot (It took me three days over this holiday weekend to catch up on all of the posts!!!)

Having watched the Indy 500 in HD on my 6010 followed by movies on DVD (no BD yet) while reading all the posts, I continue to be happy with the 8G. The belief that the "missing" options in the 9G non-Elites will be harmful is yet to be determined but it seems many are poised to provide feedback.

Many posters pointed out the business aspects of the decisions by Pio to drop some of the adjustments options on non-Elites; that may be but I support that most consumers (not the folks on this forum) will almost never wander into these menus and will be satisfied with "surfing" the picture modes and select one and never change it. If that gets Pio into more homes versus the Vizio/Panny route (bottom models) due to closer prices then at least quality can make it into those homes than all the better (and their AVS "friends" then can adjust their systems for them...).

I will continue to read these posts and gather all the info possible to make adjustments to my 8Gs and make an informed decision on a 9G or 10G when a larger size (70-75" anyone) comes along at the 2007 8G 60" prices... :)

so again im upgrading to the very best in pioneer in house before the merge so im waiting for PRO-111FD
I assume you'll *FINALLY* be updating that signature of yours. ;)