hmm..good point Vashti...lemme find out...the bad thing is the 'real' price
for the 9Gs are really not confirmed.

Can someone explain to me what the difference is between the network on the elite and the network features on the non elite

Can somebody of pros answer that question. It looks like having DLNA complaint TV is a real advantage these days if you want to stream video from your computer or cell phone. Thanks,
Vlad

The dealers should know within the next couple of weeks what they're initial prices will be.

Value Electroincs
BuyBestPlasma
Axxis Audio


Any of these three offer 12 months interest free financing with approved credit?

Can somebody of pros answer that question. It looks like having DLNA complaint TV is a real advantage these days if you want to stream video from your computer or cell phone. Thanks,
Vlad

I agree, this is the single most important new feature besides PQ.

The signature series has an external media box, I would like to have more details about this box. Or will the other models have compliance.

Dnice, you have been very quiet about these features and I know you believe that downloads are an impending tech. I am hoping you are reserving comment for a significant reason, i.e. something special here.

Paul

We'll see....price in their comp. still hasn't changed......That's a Tweeter problem. The MSRP is 6500 for thr 151FD not 5999.

D-NICE,
Does this year's Kuro Elites have the same glossy piano finish on the bezels (I LOVE the look of the PRO-110FD... is it the same design?) I was very impressed with the look of the PRO-110FD and I am hoping this year's will be the exact same design.
Also--- is the remote nicer? I hope they didn't cheap out on the remote like so many companies today (hopefully it's still a big remote with lots of cool features).
Please let me know. Thanks D-NICE.

That's not quite right. Peak brightness to black level only does contrast ratio. Black details (shadow detail) is dependent on many factors:

1) Gamma setting, if his tweaked to liking by eye SXRD has an ~2.2 gamma or lower, possibly 2.0 even, but your calibrated Kuro has 2.4 - 2.5, matching:

Display gamma 2.5 / Camera gamma 2.2 = system gamma ~1.14 ( This is what the director sees on his screening room)

Then his black details will be more but show a higher black level at the expense of haze.

2) If his SXRD has a gamma bump, an S shaped gamma curve ( below 20 IRE gamma is ~2.0 or even lower, while above 20 IRE is 2.2+ gamma), etc, his SXRD can be made to show more shadow detail, even though his black level is more. Again at the cost of haze, with the added bonus of the bumped area below 20 IRE having screwed up colors compared to the regular gamma of 2.2.

3) If the SXRD has a cooler color temperature, like it's not unheard of that the low IREs under 20 can go way over 12,000K+ color temperature, that will increase shadow detail over the Kuro properly calibrated to 6500K.

That's not to mean the SXRD will look better overall, but if the point is:
"My uncalibrated SXRD has better black details than a calibrated Kuro," he is 100% correct, he can on his own with Sony preset options (not even as extreme as Dynamic mode), make his SXRD have so much black detail, beyond what is supposed to be seen even. But, his colors will be wrong, his gamma will be all over the place, it will look an ungodly ugly mess, and so hideous in all aspects as to make me puke. The average Joe-six-pack doesn't care about that, just "haw, I told you I can see more stuff in the dark scenes."I'm well aware of gamma reio-ta. I'm also aware of a few things you left out ;)

I tried to keep that post as simplistic as possible because...well...there are too many factors that can attribute to the lack of "shadow details".

However, the most blatant one is what I posted.....specifically from fully calibrated displays.

D-NICE,
Does this year's Kuro Elites have the same glossy piano finish on the bezels (I LOVE the look of the PRO-110FD... is it the same design?) I was very impressed with the look of the PRO-110FD and I am hoping this year's will be the exact same design.
Also--- is the remote nicer? I hope they didn't cheap out on the remote like so many companies today (hopefully it's still a big remote with lots of cool features).
Please let me know. Thanks D-NICE.Yes and yes.

Dude plain and simple, turn off DRE, turn off Black level enhancer, set gamma to 3, and dont lower brightness lower then -1. Take two of these and call me in the morning.

I've fluctuated between low and off on DRE, always had black enhancer off, gamma has always been set to 3, i vary my brightness from +1 to +3. Having said that, my 6010 doesn't show the same amount of details that my 60XBR1 does. I'm not going by memory either. I still have both televisions and I have good eyesight.

Thanks D-Nice.
I noticed that there is no "USER" setting under the specs. Is there another name for this setting which allows you to manually adjust the settings?
Also, (you may have already answered this) what is the dynamic contrast ratio?
And, if it's very dark in the room, will the blacks almost blend in giving the "floating picture" effect? I know it won't be absolute black, but will it be very close to what Pioneer is trying to achive for the 10G?
Thanks for everything you do on here D-Nice

Your 6010 shows the exact same details as your SXRD.....only darker due to the much lower minimum luminance levels.
To put it another way, if your Kuro had the same minimum luminance levels as your SXRD, the black details would be identical.

I do understand what you are saying but that's not true.

Months ago I connected my PS3 to my SXRD and watched a Spider-man 3 trailer which had a dark scene of the city. More detail in the skyline was obvious than when I watched it on my Kuro. The picture looked 10 times better on my Kuro but the SXRD obviously showed more detail and it wasn't because black levels were blacker on the Kuro. And I've noticed this on other occasions too and did more comparisons than this. I know what I'm talking about.

What SXRD model of SXRD did you compare to the Kuro?

I'm well aware of gamma reio-ta. I'm also aware of a few things you left out ;)
.

Ok cool. :D

I was mostly trying to make sure for people like Westa. His SXRD RPTV, no way in hell can have a better black level than any Kuro. So he must be doing something to make his TV get better black details, more than he should. If so, I can't imagine how bad his settings are if he has better shadow details with his SXRD.

I left a few things out? I can't think of anything much more that would affect shadow detail except maybe environment like reducing ambient lighting and reflections onto the display, that would make a higher black level SXRD have more shadow details. The other one is, you have to be real stupid to do this one, sending RGB/PC signals with the TV set to Video levels, and the reverse. But it's pretty hard to make that mistake, you have to pretty much screw up on purpose and send the wrong levels and set the TV to the wrong setting.

Bottom line is, like you said though, everything being equal, a lower black level will show more shadow detail. If not, Westa has horrible looking settings on his SXRD.

I do understand what you are saying but that's not true.

Months ago I connected my PS3 to my SXRD and watched a Spider-man 3 trailer which had a dark scene of the city. More detail in the skyline was obvious than when I watched it on my Kuro. The picture looked 10 times better on my Kuro but the SXRD obviously showed more detail and it wasn't because black levels were blacker on the Kuro. And I've noticed this on other occasions too and did more comparisons than this. I know what I'm talking about.

What SXRD model of SXRD did you compare to the Kuro?Put the two side-by-side with the same content. Turn DRE off and set your brightness on the Kuro to +1. Turn off the lights and tell me what you see :)

Ok cool. :D

I was mostly trying to make sure for people like Westa. His SXRD RPTV, no way in hell can have a better black level than any Kuro. So he must be doing something to make his TV get better black details, more than he should. If so, I can't imagine how bad his settings are if he has better shadow details with his SXRD.

I left a few things out? I can't think of anything much more that would affect shadow detail except maybe environment like reducing ambient lighting and reflections onto the display, that would make a higher black level SXRD have more shadow details. The other one is, you have to be real stupid to do this one, sending RGB/PC signals with the TV set to Video levels, and the reverse. But it's pretty hard to make that mistake, you have to pretty much screw up on purpose and send the wrong levels and set the TV to the wrong setting.

Bottom line is, like you said though, everything being equal, a lower black level will show more shadow detail. If not, Westa has horrible looking settings on his SXRD.Ah, the Westa Connection :)

Ah, the Westa Connection :)

Yep :D

Dnice,

Anyway.... Will the new 9Gs finally allow a true 2.5 gamma like is used on the telecinist reference CRT monitors without crushing black? In the right environment of course. I didn't like the fact the 8Gs still were calibrated to 2.2. Since Pioneer is now working with JVC, who have their "reference" projectors, which can do 2.4 , I'm hoping the new Pioneer 9Gs will finally allow a 2.5 gamma.

I've been trying to follow the 8g Kuro 9g kuro threads and wonder if there's anyone who could compile a list of the differences between the lines from the information released thus far? I know darker blacks/new power supply and no cablecard box but not sure about the other differences. I'm considering getting a 5020/5010 which would extremely stretch my budget and wanting to make sure I make the right decision :D

Yep :D

Dnice,

Anyway.... Will the new 9Gs finally allow a true 2.5 gamma like is used on the telecinist reference CRT monitors without crushing black? In the right environment of course. I didn't like the fact the 8Gs still were calibrated to 2.2. Since Pioneer is now working with JVC, who have their "reference" projectors, which can do 2.4 now, I'm hoping the new Pioneers will finally allow a 2.5 gamma.I haven't heard of any changes to the gamma options on the 9Gs.

I'll verify once I get one.

Forgive me if this has been asked, but is the stand for the 6020FD optional or does it come with the panel?

I've been trying to follow the 8g Kuro 9g kuro threads and wonder if there's anyone who could compile a list of the differences between the lines from the information released thus far? I know darker blacks/new power supply and no cablecard box but not sure about the other differences. I'm considering getting a 5020/5010 which would extremely stretch my budget and wanting to make sure I make the right decision :DRead the press releases.

Forgive me if this has been asked, but is the stand for the 6020FD optional or does it come with the panel?It comes with the panel.

Forgive me if this has been asked, but is the stand for the 6020FD optional or does it come with the panel?

It comes with the panel.

D-Nice-- so the 9G Elite Kuros have the identical look of the PRO-110FD (meaning no changes to the bezels, same glossy piano finish, same Elite logo, etc.) just that they are thinner?
Also--- will the blacks be significantly better, producing the "floating picture" effect Pioneer is aiming towards with thier 10G panels?

I haven't heard of any changes to the gamma options on the 9Gs.

I'll verify once I get one.

Thanks, I'd like to hear that. It'd be a shame not to allow a 2.5 gamma preset, or what should be available is a custom gamma curve option. 40,000:1 true on/off contrast can handle a 2.5 gamma easily. 2.2 isn't what the display is supposed to use, that's what the camera uses. The final display gamma is supposed to be 2.5, because the system gamma is ~1.14 not 1.0.

If it's not available, maybe you can get whomever you know to tell them to add it to at least the signature series.

D-Nice-- so the 9G Elite Kuros have the identical look of the PRO-110FD (meaning no changes to the bezels, same glossy piano finish, same Elite logo, etc.) just that they are thinner?
Also--- will the blacks be significantly better, producing the "floating picture" effect Pioneer is aiming towards with thier 10G panels?The bezels are identical

Put the two side-by-side with the same content. Turn DRE off and set your brightness on the Kuro to +1. Turn off the lights and tell me what you see :)

Here's my test after setting my Kuro as you noted:

Go to Chapter 26 on Spiderman on either blu-ray or dvd. On DVD go to 1:39:54 or on blu-ray go to 1:40:00. You will see an aerial view of Mary Jane standing up on a bridge at night. I'm not sure what you call it but it's one of those bridges that has thin beams that can be walked on but is see through (if that made any sense). On my Kuro with the lights on those beams are faint. With the light totally off you can see them better but they are still somewhat faint. to the left of Mary Jane there appears to be somewhat of a black gap.

If I do the same on my SXRD those rails can be clearly seen and that black gap is obviously her shadow. I can see all those details with the Kuro on User brightness at mid level, gamma not increased, and even with black enhancer maxed out.

If you set the Kuro's brightness to +8 or 9, then I can see the details that I am seeing on my SXRD however this take a toll on black levels big time. This is exactly my complaint about shadow details on the Kuro and one of the reasons why I want more brightness. :)

BTW, I see basically the same thing on the Kuro from either DVD(from an HD-D3) or blu-ray(from my PS3).

For the record, this is the very scene that has driven me to obsession about black levels. When I went from a 35" Sony Trinitron to a 61 Samsung HLN617W and saw the lack of details and how washed out the picture was in this scene I was just about ready to send the TV back to the store but stuck with it because I got set on a big screen:).

Here's my test after setting my Kuro as you noted:

Go to Chapter 26 on Spiderman on either blu-ray or dvd. On DVD go to 1:39:54 or on blu-ray go to 1:40:00. You will see an aerial view of Mary Jane standing up on a bridge at night. I'm not sure what you call it but it's one of those bridges that has thin beams that can be walked on but is see through (if that made any sense). On my Kuro with the lights on those beams are faint. With the light totally off you can see them better but they are still somewhat faint. to the left of Mary Jane there appears to be somewhat of a black gap.

If I do the same on my SXRD those rails can be clearly seen and that black gap is obviously her shadow. I can see all those details with the Kuro on User brightness at mid level, gamma not increased, and even with black enhancer maxed out.

If you set the Kuro's brightness to +8 or 9, then I can see the details that I am seeing on my SXRD however this take a toll on black levels big time. This is exactly my complaint about shadow details on the Kuro and one of the reasons why I want more brightness. :)

BTW, I see basically the same thing on the Kuro from either DVD(from an HD-D3) or blu-ray(from my PS3)I need you to do exactly what I asked :)

If you want more "brightness" in the shadows, you need to invest in a PZ85u as they have a hump in the lower end to make the shadow details "overly bright".

If you set the Kuro's brightness to +8 or 9, then I can see the details that I am seeing on my SXRD however this take a toll on black levels big time. This is exactly my complaint about shadow details on the Kuro and one of the reasons why I want more brightness. :)


It's not a problem with brightness, a Kuro can easily do 35 foot lamberts for peak white. That's definitely not a "problem." If you're having a problem, then your SXRD's brightness is set too high in the wrong environment. 35 ftl is the exact same brightness a telecinist uses.

The problem can only be one of three:

1) Your ambient light is more than what SMPTE recommends a telecinist uses. Solution, reduce lighting and reflections.
2) You have other settings wrong on your Kuro, which are affecting gamma. Solution, use correct settings and not your preference.
3) You're picking out a detail you're not supposed to see anyway, or one that the telecinist didn't properly set. Solution, call up Sony Picture Studios and tell them you think they made a mistake in the encode.

But the fact of the matter is, the Kuro isn't meant for more brightness. If brightness is a problem, there's something else that needs fixing.

D-NICE man you are working overtime. How do you do it? Thank you :)

I need you to do exactly what I asked :)

If you want more "brightness" in the shadows, you need to invest in a PZ85u as they have a hump in the lower end to make the shadow details "overly bright".

I want both though;). Actually if you turn DRE on it improves shadow detail in this particular scene. I think DRE helps in certain scenes and causes issues in others FWIW.

I want both though;). Actually if you turn DRE on it improves shadow detail in this particular scene. I think DRE helps in certain scenes and causes issues in others FWIW.

It could also be a problem with the processing. But I doubt it.

Here are two other things you can try

1) Set the Kuro to Movie mode. Pure mode doesn't do correct gamma. But turn off the damn DRE.
2) Borrow a VP like a Lumagen HD* or Radiance. Output 1920x1080@24p and 60p direct from the VP. Compare both. See if one over the other produces a different picture compared to a direct connection. If so, it's an internal video processing error in the Kuro.

1) Set the Kuro to Movie mode. Pure mode doesn't do correct gamma. But turn off the damn DRE.First, Pure mode does do correct gamma. In fact, it's better than Movie mode. Second he has a 6010 which is NOT an Elite ;)

It's not a problem with brightness, a Kuro can easily do 35 foot lamberts for peak white. That's definitely not a "problem." If you're having a problem, then your SXRD's brightness is set too high in the wrong environment. 35 ftl is the exact same brightness a telecinist uses.

The problem can only be one of three:

1) Your ambient light is more than what SMPTE recommends a telecinist uses. Solution, reduce lighting and reflections.
2) You have other settings wrong on your Kuro, which are affecting gamma. Solution, use correct settings and not your preference.
3) You're picking out a detail you're not supposed to see anyway, or one that the telecinist didn't properly set. Solution, call up Sony Picture Studios and tell them you think they made a mistake in the encode.

But the fact of the matter is, the Kuro isn't meant for more brightness. If brightness is a problem, there's something else that needs fixing.

1) Can I reduce my lighting to more than a completely dark room? And reflections? The lights are off man:rolleyes:.

2)D-Nice saw my settings and I took his suggestions. The only thing in the user menu that will bring out details is brightness, contrast to a limited extent, gamma (which is at 3), DRE which I set to off at D-Nice's suggestion, and ACL on or off (doesn't matter in this scene). Anything else via the User menu isn't going to make the difference.

3) And this statement is utter non-sense:

You're picking out a detail you're not supposed to see anyway, or one that the telecinist didn't properly set. Solution, call up Sony Picture Studios and tell them you think they made a mistake in the encode.

So let me get your reasoning straight, if I see the details on a non-kuro it's not really there, but if it's in the Kuro then that's what the director intended? I'm sorry, but your post has fan-boy written all over it.

I'm not saying the Kuro's are bad sets, in fact they are great TVs, but they are not perfect. If you think they are then your in denial.

First, Pure mode does do correct gamma. In fact, it's better than Movie mode. Second he has a 6010 which is NOT an Elite ;)


The Pure mode is not as desirable as one might like. The Gamma is not great in that mode. The gamma curve is the most accurate in the movie mode of the TV.

Regards

.

3) You're picking out a detail you're not supposed to see anyway, or one that the telecinist didn't properly set. Solution, call up Sony Picture Studios and tell them you think they made a mistake in the encode.

Huh? :confused:

Are you saying that if the Kuro can't display it...it doesn't really exist?

It could also be a problem with the processing. But I doubt it.

Here are two other things you can try

1) Set the Kuro to Movie mode. Pure mode doesn't do correct gamma. But turn off the damn DRE.
2) Borrow a VP like a Lumagen HD* or Radiance. Output 1920x1080@24p and 60p direct from the VP. Compare both. See if one over the other produces a different picture compared to a direct connection. If so, it's an internal video processing error in the Kuro.

1) Movie mode is a slight improvement in gamma but it's too dim for my taste. I'd rather turn brightness up on standard or user.

2) I'm not going to through this much trouble. Sheesh. I made a passing statement at Westa and I'm being told that I'm either blind and have no idea what I'm talking about:).

Forgive me if this has been asked, but is the stand for the 6020FD optional or does it come with the panel?The stand comes with all models.

I want both though;). Actually if you turn DRE on it improves shadow detail in this particular scene. I think DRE helps in certain scenes and causes issues in others FWIW.

Some have claimed that because the glass is so dark on the 8g that it has sacrificed brightness and shadow detail. I wonder myself, but a few adjustments i made myself at worst buy i thought the kuro had excellent shadow detail. I think i was at +4 brightness, gamma if i remember was 1 or something. If i recall 3 gamma is less brighter..

1) Can I reduce my lighting to more than a completely dark room? And reflections? The lights are off man:rolleyes:.


No, but you can get rid of shiny objects and not use white walls. If you haven't already. Turning off the lights is simply not enough some of the time.

2)D-Nice saw my settings and I took his suggestions. The only thing in the user menu that will bring out details is brightness, contrast to a limited extent, gamma (which is at 3), DRE which I set to off at D-Nice's suggestion, and ACL on or off (doesn't matter in this scene). Anything else via the User menu isn't going to make the difference.

3) And this statement is utter non-sense:



So let me get your reasoning straight, if I see the details on a non-kuro it's not really there, but if it's in the Kuro then that's what the director intended? I'm sorry, but your post has fan-boy written all over it.

I'm not saying the Kuro's are bad sets, in fact they are great TVs, but they are not perfect. If you think they are then your in denial.


An SXRD isn't as good as the Kuro. I'm not a fanboy, I just know for a fact an SXRD in no way, shape or form can beat a Kuro in any fashion, not on/off CR or ANSI CR. If it is, then either your Kuro or SXRD is not setup properly. I don't even own one, but I have spent lots of time with both SXRD RPTVs and Kuros.

Huh? :confused:

Are you saying that if the Kuro can't display it...it doesn't really exist?

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is, if you can't see it on a properly calibrated Kuro, you definitely won't see it on an SXRD of any kind.

Wow, took me forever to catch up with this thread, and it's only been like 20 hours since I last checked!

I noticed a few people asking about what (if anything) Pio has done differently with the 9Gs to eliminate the buzzing that some 8G's have suffered from. Here's what I've read regarding this;

"Current 8G generation screens suffer from a buzz. Sometimes the buzz is loud, other times can only be heard by putting your ear next to the screen per AVSforum reports. Cause has not been confirmed but some reports suggest it is due to the power supply being part of the screen itself, and/or some advance electronics that have to due with the turning on and off of the pixels themselves. The 9G's are rumored to have a box that houses the power supply and some of the electronics and is connected by a cord. Panasonic apparently does this on some of their plasma screens"

http://vahalee-technologytoday.blogspot.com/2008/03/pioneer-plasma-9g-kuro-information.html

Hopefully this will take care of the problem. I don't imagine that Pio wouldn't fix such a large issue.

Also, did anyone else notice the MSRP on the 6020 in the cave cnet post? $5000!?!? I hope they're right, but I imagine they're wrong.

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9938236-1.html?tag=cnetfd.mt

Now I just have to wait and hope that the 6020 will hit Canada shortly after the US, and at a similar price.

-Coggs

No, but you can get rid of shiny objects and not use white walls. If you haven't already. Turning off the lights is simply not enough some of the time.


An SXRD isn't as good as the Kuro. I'm not a fanboy, I just know for a fact an SXRD in no way, shape or form can beat a Kuro in any fashion, not on/off CR or ANSI CR. If it is, then either your Kuro or SXRD is not setup properly. I don't even own one, but I have spent lots of time with both SXRD RPTVs and Kuros.



That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is, if you can't see it on a properly calibrated Kuro, you definitely won't see it on an SXRD of any kind.

Wow, I have been out of it for awhile and I love the Kuro picture enough to buy the 9G, but I totally remember back in the 90's when the Pioneer Elite Rear Projection CRT sets had the blackest blacks ever, but no shadow detail. It seems like the Sony's have always had better shadow detail at the expense of blacks (I had a 53 inch XBR CRT RP and watched it until the CRT's burned out). Someday we will be able to have our cake and eat it to, but right now I will take the Pioneer over the Sony. The 8G's I've seen are absolutely phenomonal... almost 3D at times!!!

They're wrong, MSRP is $5500. As for the buzz, I read somewhere that Pioneer is using a new power supply this year, which should alleviate that problem somewhat.

No, but you can get rid of shiny objects and not use white walls. If you haven't already. Turning off the lights is simply not enough some of the time..

So I'm supposed to rearrange my environment so the Kuro wins? Are you really serious? My walls are tan BTW.

An SXRD isn't as good as the Kuro. I'm not a fanboy, I just know for a fact an SXRD in no way, shape or form can beat a Kuro in any fashion, not on/off CR or ANSI CR. If it is, then either your Kuro or SXRD is not setup properly. I don't even own one, but I have spent lots of time with both SXRD RPTVs and Kuros.

I totally agree, an SXRD isn't even close to as good as a Kuro. However it does do better with shadow details and I don't even have to raise the brightness a notch and I can even max out black enhancer which crushes details and it still wins. I've seen it with my own eyes. What's the deal with the Kuro having to win in every area? You're taking this all to seriously. The Kuro is a great TV but it does have areas to improve upon.

yeah. but i don't think i want the speaker there unused. and i've only got two wires - power and one HDMI. i'm going to try to run them down one leg so you won't see them.
I use the speaker for my 5010 (bedroom set) but on the 6010, even though I have a 5.1 system connected, installing the speaker (even unused) was an improvement (IMHO) of looks... Try with it on and off and see which you believe looks best (and congrats on your new 5010!!!)

UM, I'm sorry but a calibrated Kuro elite has ZERO BLACK CRUSH! Anyone who says they see black crush on a kuro, is looking at one that is not calibrated right. I owned a XBR1 SXRD, and yes it had great shadow detail but not as good as my elite. 9Gs look great, but I'm holding out for ECC is 2009. D-nice is that still gonna happen? or do we have to wait until 2010 for the ECC?

Pardon my ignorance, but what is an ECC?? I read with great interest the CES reports of the Pioneer no one knew was on in a darkened room. I guess I was under the false impression that would be the next generation, the 9G. The big question for me is: do I grab the 9G with what has to be an amazing picture if it is even 3% better than the current model while Pioneer still makes them, or do I wait another year or two in search of the deep black holy grail and chance the quality will suffer with outsourcing the panels. If they are built to Pioneer's specs, and tested and inspected by Pioneer, do you still think there is a chance they won't be as good??

Pardon my ignorance, but what is an ECC?? I read with great interest the CES reports of the Pioneer no one knew was on in a darkened room. I guess I was under the false impression that would be the next generation, the 9G. The big question for me is: do I grab the 9G with what has to be an amazing picture if it is even 3% better than the current model while Pioneer still makes them, or do I wait another year or two in search of the deep black holy grail and chance the quality will suffer with outsourcing the panels. If they are built to Pioneer's specs, and tested and inspected by Pioneer, do you still think there is a chance they won't be as good??

ECC Extreme Contrast Concept.

I would go for the 9G, unless you feel like waiting another year or two.

Here's a quote for all you guys waiting on that 70"+ Kuro:

Neyhoeser told BetaNews that, for the future, Pioneer is working on plasma screens in larger form factors than the 50- and 60-inch 1080p models in the 2008 line-up. "And, of course, we'll continue to strive for 'absolute black,'" he added.

http://www.betanews.com/article/Hollywood_helps_Pioneer_launch_2008_Kuro_HDTVs/1210296793

I read somewhere that Pioneer is using a new power supply this year, which should alleviate that problem somewhat.

Probably same place I posted a link to, I hope they're right.

Wow, I have been out of it for awhile and I love the Kuro picture enough to buy the 9G, but I totally remember back in the 90's when the Pioneer Elite Rear Projection CRT sets had the blackest blacks ever, but no shadow detail. It seems like the Sony's have always had better shadow detail at the expense of blacks (I had a 53 inch XBR CRT RP and watched it until the CRT's burned out). Someday we will be able to have our cake and eat it to, but right now I will take the Pioneer over the Sony. The 8G's I've seen are absolutely phenomonal... almost 3D at times!!!

You're right the Kuro is amazing. I'd have gotten one if it were able to beat the black levels of the best CRT, but it can't beat a Sony G90 projector. But these 9Gs should, not using any gamma tricks. If the 9Gs have a 2.5 gamma option, I'll have a hard time deciding between the Sony VPL-VW70 or the 60" Elite or Signature.

So I'm supposed to rearrange my environment so the Kuro wins? Are you really serious? My walls are tan BTW.



I totally agree, an SXRD isn't even close to as good as a Kuro. However it does do better with shadow details and I don't even have to raise the brightness a notch and I can even max out black enhancer which crushes details and it still wins. I've seen it with my own eyes. What's the deal with the Kuro having to win in every area? You're taking this all to seriously. The Kuro is a great TV but it does have areas to improve upon.

My wife says I take my TVs way too seriously too! :D

Hmmm I don't know, tan should be "good enough." The only other way I can think of that the SXRD is "winning" is because of its auto-iris. Turning off the auto-iris and closing to its minimum value, that would put both TVs on equal footing. The auto-iris will cause brightness compression in any mode. That might be what's doing it. Whenever I looked at the SXRDs, I'd put the iris at its minimum value. If the SXRD still wins on that scene, it's possible it's a weird scene. Art from the over $20,000 forum section has a Sim2. Its on/off isn't anywhere near his G90 stack he got rid of, but there is a scene in Snow Falling on Cedars (http://www.snowfallingoncedars.com/main.html) In one scene the lead character is walking toward and then under a large dock. With the CRT there is nothing visible under that dock due to the nearly 50% split to the left of bright daylight. Objects of all sorts are clearly visible under that dock with the 3 chip So I guess anything's possible, although it's strange.

With all of the Pioneer hype within this thread, we can say that Pioneer has made a hit and they are back. I am hoping that they will create a standard for a long time within the plasma industry.

Chris

Sorry guys, I'm just trying to follow all the discussions here. Up until now, everything was "black level this, black level that". Now that the black level is almost here, we have another problem: no shadow detail. I need to understand, is it possible to even have the absolute perfect black level AND see shadow details? Wouldn't that be unnatural? When you're in a totally dark room, you can't see crap. Without mentioning gammas or some acronym most of us regular folk have never heard about, can someone shed some light on this? Do we want black levels or shadow details?

Sorry guys, I'm just trying to follow all the discussions here. Up until now, everything was "black level this, black level that". Now that the black level is almost here, we have another problem: no shadow detail. I need to understand, is it possible to even have the absolute perfect black level AND see shadow details? Wouldn't that be unnatural? When you're in a totally dark room, you can't see crap. Without mentioning gammas or some acronym most of us regular folk have never heard about, can someone shed some light on this? Do we want black levels or shadow details?

You want better black levels. But at the same time you need accurate grayscale tracking and gamma. Your processing gradient level can affect shadow detail(you know those Panasonic ads on their website which show 4,096 gradients per color for billions of colors). Without proper processing, you get banding and posterization, which affects your shadow details. Some displays like DLP have dithering which affects grayscale and thusly shadow details. Glare from not in the right environment affects ANSI contrast, which can link to lesser shadow detail.

To have perfect shadow detail, all of what I said, and other contributing factors are needed. Black level is a necessary but isn't a sufficient condition of shadow detail. At what cost do you want shadow detail? Do you want shadow detail which is unreal? Go outside and look at street lamp with blackness around it at night. You'll see glare, and rays extending in all directions called veiling glare. You can put a neutral density filter on a camera and mess with exposure, you'll get rid of the glare and see details in the shadows you can't normally see with your eye. The same with a TV. You can gain this same effect by having lots of ANSI contrast but not enough on/off contrast.

To get better in one area, you lose another. It all depends on what you want. It's not the fault of the "black level" or the new TV. Flaws in one TV bring out things you want, but then get others wrong.

The whole point of new tech is trying to minimize the wrongs as best as you can. Less wrongs gives a more pleasing picture. Be it better processing, better on/off and ANSI contrast, better black levels, more sharpness, better shadow details in some scenes but you lose it in others. Let's say you gain the shadow detail in the Spiderman scene, but lose it in the Snow Falling on Cedars, where does it end? Do you get pissed when wearing sun glasses and are able to see certain things better with no glare, but others look worse? Do you then bitch and tell your eye doctor about it and for him to make you sun glasses which only get rid of glare but let you see normally? If we had perfect sun glasses, that'd be possible. But the world isn't perfect.

Now that the black level is almost here, we have another problem: no shadow detail.Missing shadow detail for any Kuro set is a adjustment problem, not a failing of the technology. That's one reason why some people have their displays (of all types) calibrated by a qualified professional.

I need to understand, is it possible to even have the absolute perfect black level AND see shadow details?I doubt "absulute perfect black levels" are possible, but they are already very satisfying. The new Kuros are expected to be even more satisfying.

When you're in a totally dark room, you can't see crap.No room is totally dark if the TV in on. Check out bias lighting to get a more balanced view of satisfying viewing conditions. Your eyes will probably react badly to a bright TV surrounded by pitch black. It causes eyes to be constantly adjusting to light and it's absence.

When was the last time you were in a movie theater that was totally dark?


Do we want black levels or shadow details?I'm looking for both in a way that reflects most accurately the intention of the folks that created what I'm watching. When I'm intended to see black that's what I want it to look like. When I'm intended to see detail in a dark scene that's the detail that I want to see -- not more or less. :)

Why doesn't anyone talk about highlights? They're just as important. When shadow details are pumped too high, highlights become lost. There's more to just "shadow details", or "how dark can I see." You can always bump brightness, but then, "You pays your money, and you takes your choice."

I'll post some pics:

http://spicywebsites.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/9.jpg

Ok, you gained your shadow detail in Spiderman, what do you do when it causes the bottom picture, you immediately change your settings to get the top and then switch back in the middle of the movie? That's loads of fun. But then what happens in a mixed scene which had both really bright and really dark? What do you do then? Get mad and throw your Wiimote at the screen?

http://www.videogamevs.com/images/wiimotedamage.jpg

Thanks, these are great insights. I compared the 8g with other sets and could not find anything that came close - at least to my eyes. This is coming from someone who was an lcd fan up until the 8g came about .Someone was talking about the kuros not having enough shadow detail?? Transformers anyone?
I loved the 8g from when I first saw it and I think 9g will be awsome too. I will definitely buy one.

Hi,

1) Do any of th guru's here know if the new 9G's can do 720p with zero overscan, and without PC-mode? (mainly for all those games that are not 1080p). From what I gather the 8g's could not do that. Or would PC-mode be 'good enough' for gaming?

2) Do the pio's do sub-pixel rendering? I love that on my low-res PWD7. It helps preventing that evey white line has a blue edge as well. It might not be that relevant on 1080p screens, though.

Thanks!

Alex.

D-Nice, do the 9G panels have the same cell structure as the 8G's (i.e., is the aperture ratio, AKA fill factor, the same)? [I'm guessing it is the same, and that the lower blacks are due to a change in the electronics, e.g., new emitters that allow a lower bias current.]

Also, the press release says:

“Our Elite monitors are hand-selected to ensure the most pristine picture and premium performance associated with the KURO name and our Pioneer brand.”

Does this apply to all the Elites (not just the signature series)? And more importantly, what does it mean? I.e., what are the criteria that get something selected as an Elite? For instance, are the panels that don't make the cut put into the non-Elites for the hoi polloi, proles, and other members of the great unwashed :D?

And did they do this with the 8G models?

Finally, do the 9G non-Elites have the same crippled gamma curve as the 8G non-Elites (which necessitated something like a Lumagen processor -- or the purchase of an Elite :rolleyes: -- to fix)?

For instance, are the panels that don't make the cut put into the non-Elites for the hoi polloi, proles, and other members of the great unwashed :D?
Jeeze, thanks for the condescension towards those adhering to a tighter budget!

Jeeze, thanks for the condescension towards those adhering to a tighter budget!

Sorry, I think you misinterpreted my remarks. I was attempting to be satirical concerning Pioneer's two-class system. Right now I'm finishing up my Ph.D. (in physical chemistry, as you can probably guess from my user name ;)), which puts me squarely in the great unwashed category myself!

Someone was talking about the kuros not having enough shadow detail??

Maybe someone is just using wrong RGB settings (limited vs. full). The lack of shadow detail mentioned in this thread certainly sounds unusual for a Kuro.

Isn't this discussion really talking about dynamic range? Isn't that what you need for both good details in both shadows and highlights?

High dynamic range is kind of the holy grail in all imaging technology ... just as it is in audio reproduction. We're talking expensive way beyond the cost of an Elite.

Still, no reason why we can't all dream for the ultimate. It keeps things exciting.
For now, I'm happy with a 9G that can outperform an 8G, at lower introductory prices.

I have a question? On the signature series, which will be THE BEST (hand-selected parts. stuff like that in QC), is there anyway to put a speaker onto it in case you don't want to turn on surround sound for everything? Some people around the house can't stand it (guess who) when I have the surround sound on too loud, which is, in her ears, always. This is so I can have softer audio at night. I couldn't care less for a tuner, but do the signature series have ANY more calibration options than the elites. Just so better QC and no speakers is worth it.

All this talk about Tweeter is immaterial to someone who really wants to buy a 151. I'm much more into audio than video, but with the completion of a new game room next month, I need a good wall-mounted plazma. So off to Sound Advice (Tweeter to most of you) I went, plunked down my 20 percent and became the seventh person in line at the local store for a 151. Specs don 't matter to me That's idle chit-chat for you guys and girls. I've seen the the 8G. I know the 9G will be better. I just needed a good price. I received the aforementioned sale price and any of you can, also. The sale won't end until Memorial Day.

I'm at such a crossroads right now guys...I have a 150FD 8Gen waiting for me now to buy...should I go for this or wait for the 9Gen non-elite 60"?

is it going to be that much more noticeable?...help! :confused:

very, extremely, supremely noticable. I was there A/B-ing the 8th gen vs the 9th gen.

You're right the Kuro is amazing. I'd have gotten one if it were able to beat the black levels of the best CRT, but it can't beat a Sony G90 projector. But these 9Gs should, not using any gamma tricks. If the 9Gs have a 2.5 gamma option, I'll have a hard time deciding between the Sony VPL-VW70 or the 60" Elite or Signature.



My wife says I take my TVs way too seriously too! :D

Hmmm I don't know, tan should be "good enough." The only other way I can think of that the SXRD is "winning" is because of its auto-iris. Turning off the auto-iris and closing to its minimum value, that would put both TVs on equal footing. The auto-iris will cause brightness compression in any mode. That might be what's doing it. Whenever I looked at the SXRDs, I'd put the iris at its minimum value. If the SXRD still wins on that scene, it's possible it's a weird scene. Art from the over $20,000 forum section has a Sim2. Its on/off isn't anywhere near his G90 stack he got rid of, but there is a scene in Snow Falling on Cedars (http://www.snowfallingoncedars.com/main.html) So I guess anything's possible, although it's strange.

I typically had the iris set on 2. My 6010 is capable of showing the details but the brightness has to be cranked up a bit. I'm no pro by no means but it just seems to me that it's either a brightness or gamma issue. I've seen similar types of scenes in store on stuff like fireworks near a city and I could see the city skyline on the LCDs but didn't on the Kuro and I'm pretty sure it's because the LCDs were so bright (albeit the picture was a bit lighter and looked washed out too on the LCDs).

Sorry guys, I'm just trying to follow all the discussions here. Up until now, everything was "black level this, black level that". Now that the black level is almost here, we have another problem: no shadow detail. I need to understand, is it possible to even have the absolute perfect black level AND see shadow details? Wouldn't that be unnatural? When you're in a totally dark room, you can't see crap. Without mentioning gammas or some acronym most of us regular folk have never heard about, can someone shed some light on this? Do we want black levels or shadow details?

My comparison was to an SXRD. When I compared my Kuro vs. my old Panny it beat it out in shadow details. Go for the black levels. And even if you are missing details unless you have a reference point to compare to you may not even realize it. My SXRD may win out in that area but it's not even in the same league as my Kuro.

Why doesn't anyone talk about highlights? They're just as important. When shadow details are pumped too high, highlights become lost. There's more to just "shadow details", or "how dark can I see." You can always bump brightness, but then, "You pays your money, and you takes your choice."

I'll post some pics:

http://spicywebsites.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/9.jpg

Ok, you gained your shadow detail in Spiderman, what do you do when it causes the bottom picture, you immediately change your settings to get the top and then switch back in the middle of the movie? That's loads of fun. But then what happens in a mixed scene which had both really bright and really dark? What do you do then? Get mad and throw your Wiimote at the screen?

http://www.videogamevs.com/images/wiimotedamage.jpg

That's not a good example as that does not happen on my set. My SXRD never looks like that bottom picture at all. However, color saturation is lost and the picture can look to "light" and lost depth at times. Which is why I think it's a brightness issue. I do agree with you, I'll take the deeper black levels over the extra shadow detail. But I do think it's possible to overcome this issue. Maybe we'll have to live with some flaws for now as I've been waiting for years for digital displays to provide good black levels and we are finally there.

No stores in my area have had both the non-elite and the elite versions but starting next month a high end dealer in my area will be getting the Elites. I'll have to do an A/B on those and see how much better the Elites look. If they are much better then this would be an additional selling factor for the Elites and some nice sponsor can give me enough commission to pay the difference for me on an elite;).

Enough with my rant. My intent was never to steer anyone away from the Kuros:).

With DNLA, will you be able to hook up a USB wireless attachment and be able to view your computer through a 9G pioneer?

Quick side question: I'm looking at using a Marantz receiver with one of the new Kuro's but I'm concerned about its lack of video processing. Is the video processing in the Kuros (assuming the 9G is similar to the 8G) going to be good enough, or do I need my receiver to take over that task?

First, Pure mode does do correct gamma. In fact, it's better than Movie mode. Second he has a 6010 which is NOT an Elite ;)
Hello ,
What do Gamma mode and DRE do exactly.....
And what exactly do Black levels mean to the picture
I currently have a Panny Th50PHD6UY and am looking to upgrade to a 1080P 60 or 65 inch plasma.... I made multiple visits to Best buy and few other electronic stores
I liked the pro 150fd and also the th65pz750 ....but one thing I noticed is that with the same blu ray disc.... the Panny pic was brighter but also grainy.....pioneer pic was defnitely good but not bright which I was not that happy about...

Can you and the other senior members guide me on what I need to look for and what to expect

Thanks

I anticipate expensive couple months ahead......

5020 or 6020 (if I can slide that by the ol' wifey..:D)
onkyo 705
MGS4 bundle PS3

all = :D

.So you take that from one calibrator? Would you like me to post other calibrator comments and reviewer's notes on how Pure mode does have an accurate gamma with zero humps or bumps? Better yet, I have my own measurements that say otherwise.

Don't want to start a pricing thread here but I just called Tweeter and they are still doing the same pre-order price they were offering before even after the higher MSRPs have been announced....Offer is good till the end of May I was told. 20% deposit required.

I have a question? On the signature series, which will be THE BEST (hand-selected parts. stuff like that in QC), is there anyway to put a speaker onto it in case you don't want to turn on surround sound for everything? Some people around the house can't stand it (guess who) when I have the surround sound on too loud, which is, in her ears, always. This is so I can have softer audio at night. I couldn't care less for a tuner, but do the signature series have ANY more calibration options than the elites. Just so better QC and no speakers is worth it.

Why not turn the volume down and turn off the surrounds and possibly the sub at night? Seems easier, better looking and certainly better sounding optio and takes five seconds to accomplish.

Click link (http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http://www.hembiokoll.se/2008/05/08/bilder-pa-andra-generationen-pioneer-kuro/) to see some nice comparison photos of the 9G vs. the 8G...

Quick question. I'm planing on preordering a 6020 from a forum sponsor once they are ready to start taking orders, but I have a question about shipping. Do the shipping companies give you any lattitude on which day it will be delivered? Do they deliver on the weekends?

Hello ,
What do Gamma mode and DRE do exactly.....
And what exactly do Black levels mean to the picture
I currently have a Panny Th50PHD6UY and am looking to upgrade to a 1080P 60 or 65 inch plasma.... I made multiple visits to Best buy and few other electronic stores
I liked the pro 150fd and also the th65pz750 ....but one thing I noticed is that with the same blu ray disc.... the Panny pic was brighter but also grainy.....pioneer pic was defnitely good but not bright which I was not that happy about...

Can you and the other senior members guide me on what I need to look for and what to expect

Thanks


Wait and get the 6090 (9 G Kuro Pioneers). Will be best picture for a 60 inch panel, and at a reasonable price.

that makes me feel better about my purchase. it's definitely there, but unless they're side by side the 5010 is the blackest thing i've seen and i'm happy with it :) it's definitely blacker on the 9G but not enough to warrant a wait/price increase for me at least.

Quick question. I'm planing on preordering a 6020 from a forum sponsor once they are ready to start taking orders, but I have a question about shipping. Do the shipping companies give you any lattitude on which day it will be delivered? Do they deliver on the weekends?

Yellow did not do weekends, but some probably do. they do let you choose what day. if you go with buybestplasma (Roman) and i suggest you do, he's awesome - you'll use Yellow.

Don't want to start a pricing thread here but I just called Tweeter and they are still doing the same pre-order price they were offering before even after the higher MSRPs have been announced....

Rumor I heard ...

Pioneer floated the lower MSRP ... and got the response it was too big of a drop from 2007 to move "inventory on hand" ... so they 'window dressed' MSRP higher to clean out the 8G's ;)

Pioneer is sick of having the best product, yet the tiniest percentage of the plasma market. They know price is the #1 issue holding them back (that they can control); hence the joint venture to increase production and cut expenses. The #2 issue is out of their control; the black picture does not show well on B&M fluorescent sales floors, where 99% of consumers compare them.

I would love the 9G Monitor (I don't need a tuner or speakers), but the way they are marketing it, it sounds like it will have a premium price ... and I will have to wait until August :mad:

I know these 9G tvs have hdmi 1.3 but does anybody know if they have the features of 1.3 like Deep Color and Xv Color?

^Tbh at this point it doesn't matter. Blu-Ray is the current top format available commercially, and it only specifies 8-bit color in the spec. The features are very much useless with out a source that supports them.

If you are in to video games however, I'm pretty sure it would support RBG color space.

Yellow did not do weekends, but some probably do. they do let you choose what day. if you go with buybestplasma (Roman) and i suggest you do, he's awesome - you'll use Yellow.

It really depends on the area regarding which shipper gets used but they are held responsible the same.

Thanks for the reply Brian. I've read a lot of good things about Roman and I will definitely be contacting him as soon as he is ready to take orders.

Here's a quote for all you guys waiting on that 70"+ Kuro:



http://www.betanews.com/article/Hollywood_helps_Pioneer_launch_2008_Kuro_HDTVs/1210296793


Now we're talking!!

Waboman, you're not having second thoughts again are you?:D

Always my friend.

It appears that networking capabilities of the 5020/6020 are equal to the 8G 150 and 151/161. Would this be correct? This means that the differentiation between the elite/non-elite is now almost entirely just calibration capabilities. Am I missing something?

I thought I would wait for the first reviews to come out on the Elite 151FD before purchasing, but as the days pass, I'm wondering if supplies will run out. Is there a chance that a month or two after the release, Pioneer will run out of 151FDs? Do you think they will be difficult to get after that?

I thought I would wait for the first reviews to come out on the Elite 151FD before purchasing, but as the days pass, I'm wondering if supplies will run out. Is there a chance that a month or two after the release, Pioneer will run out of 151FDs? Do you think they will be difficult to get after that?

If you don't remember last year, they ran out extremely quick, I would place your order as soon as you can.

If you don't remember last year, they ran out extremely quick, I would place your order as soon as you can.

I would think this time Pioneer will increase their production. They lost lots of sales because of that and this time they have no excuse to not expect a high demand for their displays, specially the fact this will be the last "all parts" generation Pioneer.

I want to place an order soon, but I might wait a bit to expect prices to drop at least 20% of the MSRP. $6,500 for the Elite 60" is a lot of ca$h! :(

The big question for me is: do I grab the 9G with what has to be an amazing picture if it is even 3% better than the current model while Pioneer still makes them, or do I wait another year or two in search of the deep black holy grail and chance the quality will suffer with outsourcing the panels.

No one really knows the answer to this question but that doesn't stop people from speculating.

For pricing discussion. It's because Tweeter has an offer for the PRO111FD at 4499.99, with 20% down BUT with shipping costs TBD, and the deal has to be made via email since they don't have an online shop for it! Is this a smart way to shop? i can wait until december if need be, will the prices be lower then? Thanks!

For pricing discussion. It's because Tweeter has an offer for the PRO111FD at 4499.99, with 20% down BUT with shipping costs TBD, and the deal has to be made via email since they don't have an online shop for it! Is this a smart way to shop? i can wait until december if need be, will the prices be lower then? Thanks!

Only MSRP Pricing discusions, nothing else.:cool:

I would think this time Pioneer will increase their production. They lost lots of sales because of that and this time they have no excuse to not expect a high demand for their displays, specially the fact this will be the last "all parts" generation Pioneer.

I want to place an order soon, but I might wait a bit to expect prices to drop at least 20% of the MSRP. $6,500 for the Elite 60" is a lot of ca$h! :(

I wouldn't risk missing your chance, you never know what there stock could be. I would ask one of the authorized dealers in your area about it.

It appears that networking capabilities of the 5020/6020 are equal to the 8G 150 and 151/161. Would this be correct? This means that the differentiation between the elite/non-elite is now almost entirely just calibration capabilities. Am I missing something?

There are other differences, such as speaker position and color space 2, but I am also very interested in knowing if the Home Gallery support is identical across the 9G lines. This was the main reason I was going with Elite, as this plasma will be for daily HDTV (Dish HD and OTA) viewing (not Home Theater), so will not be professionally calibrated.

Does anyone know whether the 9G Kuro's have the CableCard functionality? Thanks.

Does anyone know whether the 9G Kuro's have the CableCard functionality? Thanks.

The Cable Card Functionality is gone on the 9G's.

Do I take this to mean that panel buzz emanating from the glass itself will persist as a problem? That is, for those of us who were "sensitive" to that issue with the 8G's, we can expect no change with the 9G's?

No. There were two reported types of buzz. One from the power supply and the other from the glass itself.

The firing sequence has not be changed in a way to resolve the panel buzz.

Do I take this to mean that panel buzz emanating from the glass itself will persist as a problem? That is, for those of us who were "sensitive" to that issue with the 8G's, we can expect no change with the 9G's?

That would be very disapointing. :(

That would be very disapointing. :(

If I see a 9th Gen Buzz Poll I will be not happy.

How about we wait and see if there is problems when it comes out. It is to early to start this.

Agreed, but it is hard to set aside the comments of someone at D-Nice's level.

How about we wait and see if there is problems when it comes out. It is to early to start this.

The Cable Card Functionality is gone on the 9G's.

Oh no, say it ain't so!

Thanks anyway.

Agreed, but it is hard to set aside the comments of someone at D-Nice's level.

I agree with not setting aside his comments, but lets just wait and see.

For all who are sending me PM's about Elite Pricing. Invision does not carry the Elite line and therefore will not have pricing for it. Pioneer has rules about selling elites online and we follow it by not selling them. When I have pricing on the 20 series I will be glad to send you a PM. Thanks.

For all who are sending me PM's about Elite Pricing. Invision does not carry the Elite line and therefore will not have pricing for it. Pioneer has rules about selling elites online and we follow it by not selling them. When I have pricing on the 20 series I will be glad to send you a PM. Thanks.

I'd like some info on 6020 pricing when you get it Alex, thanks!

I'd like some info on 6020 pricing when you get it Alex, thanks!

Not a problem. Hopefully Monday will bring good news to all.

For all who are sending me PM's about Elite Pricing. Invision does not carry the Elite line and therefore will not have pricing for it. Pioneer has rules about selling elites online and we follow it by not selling them. When I have pricing on the 20 series I will be glad to send you a PM. Thanks.

How about the Signature Line? TIA

How about the Signature Line? TIA

The Elite Signature Series is higher than the regular Elite line. Invision will not sell either one.

I checked the online link at Pioneer site and seems like all the authorized online dealer are only selling non-elite models.

Does it mean that anyone selling online Elite models in not authorized?

Also will I be taking a huge risk in buying from someone who is not on
the authorized list of online dealers? What are those risks?

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/FindStore you can do a search by a zip code. As long as the dealer buys from authorized distributors as stated in the contract the SN# is tracked and warranty is valid for 2 years from Pioneer. You just have to do the research on the dealer as well.

There are many places where you can order via phone. You can't order an elite on-line - but pick up the phone and call them, and you're okay as long as they're authorized Pio dealers. If they're not, walk away. Pioneer says they won't honor warranty unless you buy from an authorized dealer. While many say this is illegal and if you push it, you'll win, I'd rather not have to.

How about we wait and see if there is problems when it comes out. It is to early to start this.

Too early to complain about a product that hasn't been released yet? The devil you say... ;)

Kidding aside, did the initial group of 8G's released last year have any substantial problems fixed later in the run?

Do I take this to mean that panel buzz emanating from the glass itself will persist as a problem? That is, for those of us who were "sensitive" to that issue with the 8G's, we can expect no change with the 9G's?
Rumour has it that this year Pio has the power supply and some of the other electronic systems housed in a sepereate box that is connected to the screen via a cable. The 8Gs had the power supply directly attached to the screen, as well as some of the other major electronic components, which was rumoured to have caused the buzz.

There are many places where you can order via phone. You can't order an elite on-line - but pick up the phone and call them, and you're okay as long as they're authorized Pio dealers. If they're not, walk away. Pioneer says they won't honor warranty unless you buy from an authorized dealer. While many say this is illegal and if you push it, you'll win, I'd rather not have to.

So wise Vashti; Pioneer reps are tiring of "authorized" "unauthorized" dealer questions. Authorized dealers TV's have valid warranties - Unauthorized dealers do not. Check out Pioneers web site @ www.pioneerelectronics.com -click on "Products" then click on "Authorized Online Stores". The list is there and you will not have to challenge Pioneer for warranty coverage if you purchase from any of these dealers. The entire Elite line is unauthorized from e-tailers. :eek:

Too early to complain about a product that hasn't been released yet? The devil you say... ;)

Kidding aside, did the initial group of 8G's released last year have any substantial problems fixed later in the run?

Even the 5010's and 6010's manufactured in 2008 still had some issues.

I could not find if this fact was already posted but the 8G was the last Pioneer manufactured line of plasma's. They are now manufactured by another big name and sold by Pioneer. Would explain the lower MSRP's. Read this at CEPro and was told by a Magnolia employee.

Interesting because I was at Magnolia in San Jose yesterday, and I was told the exact same thing by one of their employees. He said this is why their MSRP will be lower.

Rumour has it that this year Pio has the power supply and some of the other electronic systems housed in a sepereate box that is connected to the screen via a cable. The 8Gs had the power supply directly attached to the screen, as well as some of the other major electronic components, which was rumoured to have caused the buzz.D-Nice has said a couple of times that there will be NO external media box... Just a false rumor. I miss my 1110's external box. very convenient.

Not a problem. Hopefully Monday will bring good news to all.

Can't wait 'til Monday. :cool:

Interesting because I was at Magnolia in San Jose yesterday, and I was told the exact same thing by one of their employees. He said this is why their MSRP will be lower.

It's simply not true. The 2008 9g Pioneers will be MADE BY PIONEER, next year, Panasonic will be supplying the glass, but they will still be assembled by Pioneer.

It's simply not true. The 2008 9g Pioneers will be MADE BY PIONEER, next year, Panasonic will be supplying the glass, but they will still be assembled by Pioneer.+1. THE 9G PIONEERS ARE PURELY PIONEER!!! The 10gs will have Panasonic glass, but will be assembled and the driving algorithm will still be with Pioneer. They will be built to Pioneer's specs. I'm sick of hearing otherwise.:mad:

Interesting because I was at Magnolia in San Jose yesterday, and I was told the exact same thing by one of their employees. He said this is why their MSRP will be lower.

It astounds me that in this day of the information age, the amount of misinformation that gets passed around. I was told the same thing by a Tweeter sales rep.

Does no one read anymore? One would think if one is buying this kind of geer, to say nothing of selling it, that they would at least read the trade news and get their facts straight.

i think part of the reason for all the misinformation is because Pioneer simply announced their 2009 plan of using Panasonic panel way too early, why did they think it was a good idea to announce it just before their own 2008 line came out? they should have waited until next year to make the announcement.

Because they wanted to show their shareholders and the stock market that they were doing something to reduce the flow of red ink from their plasma division.

It does seem it would be wise for Pioneer to demand some mandatory "continuing education" concerning the 9G line among their B+M re-sellers, though.

Hey guys,

I'm busy reading several pages back trying to keep up with this thread, so bear with me if my question has already been answered.

I remember a while back in this thread about one of the major differences between the non-elites and the elites being that the non-elites are in some sort of color mode 1, and the elites are in a color mode 2. I thought the only real difference between the elites and the non-elites was the elites had more settings for the real tecky. So.... will a elite out preform a non-elite.... all things being equal (settings, room conditions, etc...)

If so, would the use of a outboard scaler help the non-elite? I'm looking at the 6020 and I do have a outboard scaler (lumagen HDQ).

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thats a good question of why someone should buy a non-elite vs elite. For me, most of the viewing will be Directv (70%) and Blue Ray (20%) and games 10%. When I talk to some of the B&M stores (High end Audio Video), since they sell Elites, I get arguments, you are going to buy a TV once in 8-10 years and should buy the best that is out there in the market. The sofware and the glass is better quality vs Non-Elite. Its getting very confusing.

I would like to buy from a Forum Sponsor to save money but then it adds dilemma as to who will be the right forum sponsor to go buy an Elite from if I do decide to go that route, if its non-elite, then there is a better choice between the forum sponsors.

wait a minute, back up the truck for a second...

Am I mis-understanding you NanoRish when you say The sofware and the glass is better quality vs Non-Elite. - I'm taking it as the elites have all around better glass than the non-elites, and are you saying that the bulk of the software is better in the elites than in the non-elites?

I thought they were close to the same TV set, other than a few minor mods - same guts just different tweeking.

Thats a good question of why someone should buy a non-elite vs elite. For me, most of the viewing will be Directv (70%) and Blue Ray (20%) and games 10%. When I talk to some of the B&M stores (High end Audio Video), since they sell Elites, I get arguments, you are going to buy a TV once in 8-10 years and should buy the best that is out there in the market. The sofware and the glass is better quality vs Non-Elite. Its getting very confusing.

I would like to buy from a Forum Sponsor to save money but then it adds dilemma as to who will be the right forum sponsor to go buy an Elite from if I do decide to go that route, if its non-elite, then there is a better choice between the forum sponsors.

If you decide to go Elite, these are the forum sponsors who sell them:

BuyBestPlasma/Clarity
Axxis Audio
Value Electronics

As you said, there are more choices if you go Non-Elite.

Pioneer Canada MSRP prices are apparently going to be

5500$ for the 111FD
7500$ for the 151FD.

Pioneer Canada MSRP prices are apparently going to be

5500$ for the 111FD
7500$ for the 151FD.

I guess that's better than, what was it, $9000 for the 150FD? Poor Canadians:(.

I remember a while back in this thread about one of the major differences between the non-elites and the elites being that the non-elites are in some sort of color mode 1, and the elites are in a color mode 2. I thought the only real difference between the elites and the non-elites was the elites had more settings for the real tecky. So.... will a elite out preform a non-elite.... all things being equal (settings, room conditions, etc...)


Here's my take:

1.
Elites have colorspace 1 & 2, while non only has 1. Colorspace 2 is fantastic
for theatrical movies (watch Harry Potter or Star Wars!!) and is not just for
'techies', while Colorspace1 is good for stuff like sports and animated movies
as it amplifies the greens and reds from what I remember.

2.
Elites allow discrete gamma *AND* colour settings! This alone is important
as stuff like shadow details and colour accuracy can be optimized. Often
there are posts indicating lack of shadow-details or red-push. These 2
functions allow immense customization of the TV. Both are best adjusted
by a professional, but many users here share awesome settings to get you
going. Make no mistake, these 2 settings have a HUGE impact on the TV's
performance. In fact, I had an amazing gamma setting to get some wicked
whites on my TV (something folks complain about) and another gives the TV
a nice evening-like hue.

3.
Elite stand sits the TV lower which, for 60 inches, is better as it can sit on
a medium height table. Non-elite TV stands elevate the viewable screen of
the TV by about the height of the speakers (3-4 inches) which can be an
issue if the table that you plan on sitting the TV on is not super low. Your
optimum viewing level of the TV could be compromized. You don't want to
be looking upwards (even slightly) to watch the TV (hurts the neck)

4.
Elite stand also hides the cables for the TV with or without speakers. With
the non-elite stand, the cables are exposed if you don't use the speakers.

There are other differences, but those are the ones that I find are very
important to consider. Some folks (myself included) argue the elites are
the ones to get for more than just 'tweaks' or whatever folks try to say.
Without the above (and some other) features, the elites and the non-elites
perform similarly. However, the above features make all the difference and
adds heaps more flexibility. I also own a 4280 (non-elite 42 inch) and I will
honestly say that I truly miss colorspace2, gamma, and colour settings. A
lot of movies just don't look as good without these settings. If you've never
seen such options on an elite, then you probably won't notice, but once you've
seen it on an elite, it's VERY VERY hard to go back! Just a warning. Pioneers
are already expensive, and frankly, you might as well consider the extra money
if you're going that direction. I just spent a heap on staining my stairwell (new
house) as there's no way I'd cheap out on my brand new home. It cost me
enough as it is, so why cheap out now?

i think part of the reason for all the misinformation is because Pioneer simply announced their 2009 plan of using Panasonic panel way too early, why did they think it was a good idea to announce it just before their own 2008 line came out? they should have waited until next year to make the announcement.

To encourage buyers now before they "downgrade" the panel :)


bob

Does anyone know if there are aftermarket stands that will fit the 60"er and have the ability to swivel at least 15 degrees?

PS: Nambit, that was the best Elite vs. Non-Elite feature comparison I've read in awhile.

Don't want to start a pricing thread here but I just called Tweeter and they are still doing the same pre-order price they were offering before even after the higher MSRPs have been announced....Offer is good till the end of May I was told. 20% deposit required.


please pm me the details.....please and thx

Pioneer Canada MSRP prices are apparently going to be

5500$ for the 111FD
7500$ for the 151FD.

:mad: That's it!! No 9G for me at those MSRP's!

(Thanks for the PM and link, but man, $2000 difference betwen the 6020 and Pro-151 elite for Canada?!)

I'm sure the 6020 will be more than $5500 (I'd guess $6500) in Canada. There will probably be a $1000 difference between the 6020 and the 151, we'll just be paying a $1000 more than the US for both the 60' models.

I'm sure the 6020 will be more than $5500 (I'd guess $6500) in Canada. There will probably be a $1000 difference between the 6020 and the 151, we'll just be paying a $1000 more than the US for both the 60' models.

Read the article (thanks to xrox for the link!):
http://www.hereshow.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=1230

Hmm... I think you and xrox are right. Those non-elites match
the US MSRP, so perhaps they only quoted the U.S. MSRP price
for the non-elites, while the Canadian for the elites.

:mad: That's it!! No 9G for me at those MSRP's!

(Thanks for the PM and link, but man, $2000 difference betwen the 6020 and Pro-151 elite for Canada?!)

Hold the phone Nambit, this ain't street prices. Besides, you know better than most that you should hold off after initial release for the clamor to settle down first before you get a deal.

:mad: That's it!! No 9G for me at those MSRP's!

(Thanks for the PM and link, but man, $2000 difference betwen the 6020 and Pro-151 elite for Canada?!)

The explanation has always been ... a 2 year warranty in Canada vs 1 year in the USA. And extra shipping ... since all sets go to the USA first, then to Canada!!! So how in the world does that add up to $2000!!!!

Not only are the prices higher but the dealerships stink in this city ... the only quality dealership for Pioneer Elite in this town shut down their retail store (now only do custom installations). So I have yet to see a PRO150FD demo!

The main dealer in this city says they do not have to demo them because customers are buying them sight unseen. And on the Pioneers they do demo they only show standard DVD's ... I have yet to see any Blu-ray or HiDef broadcasts on any of them!!! However, the price I was quoted by that dealer on the Pro150FD was about $1500 below list.

There are a couple of smaller dealers in the area I will check out when it comes time to buy my Pro151FD or 141FD ... but I may have to buy sight unseen ... and just trust those on this forum with your reviews!

There was one quality dealer than tried to get a dealership after the other one closed, but was told by Pioneer Canada they already had enough dealers in this city!!!

Read the article (thanks to xrox for the link!):
http://www.hereshow.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=1230

Hmm... I think you and xrox are right. Those non-elites match
the US MSRP, so perhaps they only quoted the U.S. MSRP price
for the non-elites, while the Canadian for the elites.
Yeah, I'd love it if that site was right, but I highly doubt that it is. I'd be surprised to see the 5020 for less than $4500CDN MSRP, and $6500CDN for the 6020.

I'd love to be proven wrong though ;)

The explanation has always been ... a 2 year warranty in Canada vs 1 year in the USA. And extra shipping ... since all sets go to the USA first, then to Canada!!! So how in the world does that add up to $2000!!!!

I just looked at bestbuy.ca, and it says 1 year warranty for the 5010, and 6010.

Here's some more detail re. Kuro Signatures from UltimateAVmag.com. If this is true then I don't have to go to the extra trouble and expense of having someone come and calibrate in my rural home in Oregon and my apartment in Bangkok. Also, hopefully, this means that the calibration costs will be lowered accordingly.

I'm a bit concerned about the "limited edition part" ... I was going to wait a few months before buying in order to see if there are any fatal flaws, but now I'll probably buy asap.

If these units are "designed specifically for the custom-install market" I'm wondering if a mere mortal like myself will be able to purchase directly. Also, will this, plus the limited-edition part, mean little or no discounting below full list? Whatever .... I'm getting one for both abodes.

Oh great plasma pundits ... do you have any opinions or facts here?

Here's the quote:
"The new, limited-edition 50-inch PRO-101FD and 60-inch PRO-141FD Elite Signature monitors (prices not available at press time) are designed specifically for the custom-install market and will have their own IP addresses, allowing for remote ISF calibration and dealer diagnostics. Both models will be built using hand-selected parts and hand-built sub-assemblies, and they will undergo an ultra-rigorous inspection process designed to produce superior results. An accompanying certificate will vouch for the authenticity of the product."

How exactly can you perform a remote ISF calibration without a sensor of some kind taking a reading off the screen?

How exactly can you perform a remote ISF calibration without a sensor of some kind taking a reading off the screen?They probably make the ISFer send the equipment to the purchaser and let him take the readings. Then they will say settings.... off of a webfeed??? Maybe the sensors are in the TV. Maybe since the new pioneers are so good that they don't need to have sensors touching them. They move themselves to D6500 and a perfect grayscale once you feed the money through the slot ;)

:mad: That's it!! No 9G for me at those MSRP's!

(Thanks for the PM and link, but man, $2000 difference betwen the 6020 and Pro-151 elite for Canada?!)

That's my point. While Nambit does say something I do agree with in many walks of life (if you're going to spend the money, go the extra mile and make it worth while) - the price difference between the elites and the non-elites (Canadian prices) is considerable. Especially since I have a scaler that can configure the TV to whatever I'd like.

PS - Nambit - Thanks for the great reply to my question of elite vrs non-elite, very informative.

Pioneer Canada MSRP prices are apparently going to be

5500$ for the 111FD
7500$ for the 151FD.

Where have you seen that info? The "Press Room" section of Pioneer Canada web site has no mention of this. :confused:

Any details on availability???

Thanks

Pepin

How exactly can you perform a remote ISF calibration without a sensor of some kind taking a reading off the screen?
The Signature series will not be the only panels on the market with this feature. Also, the end result of a remote calibration will not be the same as an in-house calibration.

If you decide to go Elite, these are the forum sponsors who sell them:

BuyBestPlasma/Clarity
Axxis Audio
Value Electronics

As you said, there are more choices if you go Non-Elite.

Beside Invision, BuyBestPlasma, VisualApex, PlasmaConcept & ****************, any other sponsors who sell non-elite?
I just want to be ready before the release of the 6020 :)

The Signature series will not be the only panels on the market with this feature. Also, the end result of a remote calibration will not be the same as an in-house calibration.So you are saying that you need an in-house cal. to get optimal results.... Can elites have remote calibration as well? What are the other TVs on the market (The 5094 maybe by samsung?) How do they do remote calibration? Sorry for the questions, but I'm kind of confused about this feature (and the decision between an elite or signature series).

do any of these sets have a "native" setting that allows outboard configurations to pass through the TV without the TV's video processing interfering?

wait a minute, back up the truck for a second...

Am I mis-understanding you NanoRish when you say The sofware and the glass is better quality vs Non-Elite. - I'm taking it as the elites have all around better glass than the non-elites, and are you saying that the bulk of the software is better in the elites than in the non-elites?

I thought they were close to the same TV set, other than a few minor mods - same guts just different tweeking.
I was primarily quoting you what the sales guy at a top Audio Video Store (CS) in Saratoga, CA told me about Elites. He is the one who told me that Glass is better and there is a difference in software. I do question if he was telling me all this since they only sell Elites in the store. Also the fact that if I am going to keep the TV for 9-10 yrs, then does an extra 1K make a difference, might as well get the best since it will be the last year when the sets are fully manufactured by Pioneer. Going forward they will still be manufactured by Pioneer but with partnership with Panasonic.

Man I was all set for 60 inch non-Elite and already getting the custom entertainment center built, but now I am debating between getting Elite vs Non-Elite.

Also going forward, does it also mean that Pioneer will not make 60 inch sets but probably may make a 58 and 65 inch. I just want to keep enough space where the TV
goes in the custom cabinet, incase something happens to the TV in next two years and I have to go buy a new one and can't find a 60 inch.

Here's my take:

1.
Elites have colorspace 1 & 2, while non only has 1. Colorspace 2 is fantastic
for theatrical movies (watch Harry Potter or Star Wars!!) and is not just for
'techies', while Colorspace1 is good for stuff like sports and animated movies
as it amplifies the greens and reds from what I remember.

2.
Elites allow discrete gamma *AND* colour settings! This alone is important
as stuff like shadow details and colour accuracy can be optimized. Often
there are posts indicating lack of shadow-details or red-push. These 2
functions allow immense customization of the TV. Both are best adjusted
by a professional, but many users here share awesome settings to get you
going. Make no mistake, these 2 settings have a HUGE impact on the TV's
performance. In fact, I had an amazing gamma setting to get some wicked
whites on my TV (something folks complain about) and another gives the TV
a nice evening-like hue.

3.
Elite stand sits the TV lower which, for 60 inches, is better as it can sit on
a medium height table. Non-elite TV stands elevate the viewable screen of
the TV by about the height of the speakers (3-4 inches) which can be an
issue if the table that you plan on sitting the TV on is not super low. Your
optimum viewing level of the TV could be compromized. You don't want to
be looking upwards (even slightly) to watch the TV (hurts the neck)

4.
Elite stand also hides the cables for the TV with or without speakers. With
the non-elite stand, the cables are exposed if you don't use the speakers.

There are other differences, but those are the ones that I find are very
important to consider. Some folks (myself included) argue the elites are
the ones to get for more than just 'tweaks' or whatever folks try to say.
Without the above (and some other) features, the elites and the non-elites
perform similarly. However, the above features make all the difference and
adds heaps more flexibility. I also own a 4280 (non-elite 42 inch) and I will
honestly say that I truly miss colorspace2, gamma, and colour settings. A
lot of movies just don't look as good without these settings. If you've never
seen such options on an elite, then you probably won't notice, but once you've
seen it on an elite, it's VERY VERY hard to go back! Just a warning. Pioneers
are already expensive, and frankly, you might as well consider the extra money
if you're going that direction. I just spent a heap on staining my stairwell (new
house) as there's no way I'd cheap out on my brand new home. It cost me
enough as it is, so why cheap out now?

Just when I found myself tottering toward the 6020, this very informative and persuasive post comes along. I have the same question as uncle. Last year, there were those who thought that a 6010 with a very good outboard processor would create a better picture than the elite at the same price. Some people I respect a lot, like umr, were in this camp. I'm trying to figure this out for myself. What gets me the better picture - 6020 + processor or 151 (or Signature series)?

I'd appreciate any thoughts on that one.

So you are saying that you need an in-house cal. to get optimal results.... Yes

Can elites have remote calibration as well?No

What are the other TVs on the market (The 5094 maybe by samsung?)BandO, Samsung

How do they do remote calibration? I cannot go into detail about the Signature series right now.

Just when I found myself tottering toward the 6020, this very informative and persuasive post comes along. I have the same question as uncle. Last year, there were those who thought that a 6010 with a very good outboard processor would create a better picture than the elite at the same price. Some people I respect a lot, like umr, were in this camp. I'm trying to figure this out for myself. What gets me the better picture - 6020 + processor or 151 (or Signature series)?

I'd appreciate any thoughts on that one.
Did umr's comment also include the price for him to do the setup and calibration?

BandO, Samsung
I'll pass on that. Waste of 20 grand.... I'm sure the PQ is great, but I'd rather have a pioneer for 1/4th of the price and deeper black levels. No more questions about signature series for now :D

Did umr's comment also include the price for him to do the setup and calibration?

Nope, but I've always figured that in anyway. He did an audio callibration for me a couple of years ago - and I'm sold on his abilities to make magic. For me, that's a fixed cost. My question is would an external processor be able to do all the things an elite can do? My bias is toward the elite because it just seems simpler, and I like less components. But I also don't want to be silly if one more component gives me a better picture.

BandO, Samsung

When I googled BandO plasma, I got a lot of entries about "pulmonary plasma cell granuloma". I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that's not what you guys are talking about. What or who is BandO?

BandO, Samsung
.

When I googled BandO plasma, I got a lot of entries about "pulmonary plasma cell granuloma". I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that's not what you guys are talking about. What or who is BandO?Bang and Olufsen. REALLY high end. They make better audio products, I think, than video products. And their plasmas need to work on their aesthetics. http://www.bang-olufsen.com Their speakers look cool, but I can't buy any of them.

Nope, but I've always figured that in anyway. He did an audio callibration for me a couple of years ago - and I'm sold on his abilities to make magic. For me, that's a fixed cost. My question is would an external processor be able to do all the things an elite can do? My bias is toward the elite because it just seems simpler, and I like less components. But I also don't want to be silly if one more component gives me a better picture.That depends on the external processor. Also, if you do not know how to properly setup an external processor, it's completely worthless. That is why I asked if the price includes setup and calibration because the one he recommends (and I agree with the model he recommends) isn't something easy to setup.

Bang and Olufsen. REALLY high end. They make better audio products, I think, than video products. And their plasmas need to work on their aesthetics. http://www.bang-olufsen.com Their speakers look cool, but I can't buy any of them.

LOL!!! I know their stuff - went to look at their plasmas several times because I kept assuming I had missed something since I thought they weren't as great as everybody else implied. I prefer Kuros by a mile. Well, at least now, I don't have to research a brand new to me. BandO!:o



That depends on the external processor. Also, if you do not know how to properly setup an external processor, it's completely worthless. That is why I asked if the price includes setup and calibration because the one he recommends (and I agree with the model he recommends) isn't something easy to setup.

Do you agree that the 6020 + that processor (I can't remember which, but have it in my notes somewhere) will net a better picture ultimately? I guess I'd have to buy it and wait to use it until after his visit. I feel like I may be making this unnecessarily complex - but I do want the best picture I can afford. Thanks D-Nice.

Only MSRP Pricing discusions, nothing else.:cool:
just got off the phone with tweeter....placed my order ...they took my credit card number ....same price as was advertised in their flyer....i.e., $600 off "tweeter`s MSRP"

To the D-Nice: Kind of from left field, but have you ever seen a bang and olufsen in person? What are they like. I know (I think) that they use Panasonic glass, but what generation and 1080p? How good is their processing as compared to Pioneer or Fujitsu or Runco?
Edit: Vashti, I just saw your post. You prefer the Kuros for 1/4th of the price over a B and O. Are the blacks subpar or what. In Cincinnati, there are not that many high end stores that I can look at.

Edit: Vashti, I just saw your post. You prefer the Kuros for 1/4th of the price over a B and O. Are the blacks subpar or what. In Cincinnati, there are not that many high end stores that I can look at.

Yeah, for me, it was viewing a B & O that made me understand how important blacks are. Even though their sets seemed to have really great processing, they look washed out to me. I'm pretty sure it was the black levels that created the problem. I also went to two different B & Os that had their plasmas set up facing windows. Either the reflections were worse than most other screens or they just had incredibly bright windows.

just got off the phone with tweeter....placed my order ...they took my credit card number ....same price as was advertised in their flyer....i.e., $600 off "tweeter`s MSRP"

what flyer?
anyway you can scan or provide the link?

So, D-Nice,

Like I was saying earlier, I do have a external processor (Lumagen HDQ) and have a users knowledge of how it works (being playing with it with my projector for the last 2 years). So I'm confident I could set it up adequately - There really isn't any calibration fee in my equation.

Will these pioneer sets allow me to "pass through" the scaler's video processing information without the TV then adjusting those settings.

Then, if it'll allow me to pass through this information, the non-elite with a good scaler should be able to produce the best picture possible from a pioneer set.

Am I close on this???

Yeah, for me, it was viewing a B & O that made me understand how important blacks are. Even though their sets seemed to have really great processing, they look washed out to me. I'm pretty sure it was the black levels that created the problem. I also went to two different B & Os that had their plasmas set up facing windows. Either the reflections were worse than most other screens or they just had incredibly bright windows.I really don't get why you have a display for 4 times the price of a higher quality FP. The kuros will be among the most famous displays... ever. I'm calling it right now.

.. Invisions' site down??

.. Invisions' site down??


yes I was just going to say the same thing.

Weighing my options on what to do.

6010 for an awesome price
or splurge and get the 6020.

I do not think I can even start considering the Elites, as my wife just may just kill me (literally) is I were to spend that much $ on a tv.. Shhhhhh, I am not telling her much the 8G ones cost.

SO lets say I buy the 6010, I do not want to realize down the road that I should have put the extra money into the 6020. (Again this thread now has me thinking maybe I should look at the Elites. However, I must keep telling myself that that ain't happening.) Damm, this is tough....

I believe you have misunderstood D-Nice. If it is just a rumor that Pioneer is putting out a model with a separate media box. then a lot of apparently knowledgeable people on our European sister site, the AV Forum, have been spreading and building up this rumor. AV Forum has consistently reported that the media box set won't be available unitl this fall, which would suggest that the U.S. branded model is, in fact, the Signature series. ON THE OTHER HAND, with the issue in question --- panel buzz --the AV Forum is unfortunately quite skeptical that housing electronics in a separate box will solve the buzz problem. They believe the buzz culprit is the single glass design with limited shielding from the drive electronics that excite the plasma gas. The 9 G's do not provide an engineering fix for this issue. I hope our European cousins are wrong about this and that the new power supply alone will result in a significant dampening of the buzz. We'll just have to wait and see.

D-Nice has said a couple of times that there will be NO external media box... Just a false rumor. I miss my 1110's external box. very convenient.

To the D-Nice: Kind of from left field, but have you ever seen a bang and olufsen in person? What are they like.

B&Os do use Panasonic glass and then add a darker filter to achieve darker blacks. The picture has less output than a conventional plasma, but some people like the look. For me the Kuros blow them out of the water for a lot less money.

Just when I found myself tottering toward the 6020, this very informative and persuasive post comes along.

Same boat, buddy. I was 100% convinced that I could go with the 6020, but now I'm starting to feel VERY tempted by the Elite. Must.....resist......temptation. :)

Nope, but I've always figured that in anyway. He did an audio callibration for me a couple of years ago - and I'm sold on his abilities to make magic. For me, that's a fixed cost. My question is would an external processor be able to do all the things an elite can do? My bias is toward the elite because it just seems simpler, and I like less components. But I also don't want to be silly if one more component gives me a better picture.

Who is UMR? I have used avical in the past with great results for calibration.

Who is UMR? I have used avical in the past with great results for calibration.

"UMR" is his username. He is a AVS member and ISF Tech in the highest degree. You will not regret using his calibration services, that is if you can get on his work schedule.

I was primarily quoting you what the sales guy at a top Audio Video Store (CS) in Saratoga, CA told me about Elites. He is the one who told me that Glass is better and there is a difference in software. I would never make a choice based on what sales people at that particular store had to say. It's a crap shoot. I've gotten good information from one sales person, and very questionable information from two others. I've found that at least two of their sales people will do everything possible to stear customers for increased commisions.

Buyer be cautious. ;)

One other important thing about Elite is the Pure mode that it has. I believe anyone who has an Elite knows the value is well worth it, as it relates to the quality of image.

General Session begins on Wednesday, with 2 product training sessions that afternoon. Thursday completes with 2 more product training sessions.

So expect more info on Wednesday.

Russ

Last year, there were those who thought that a 6010 with a very good outboard processor would create a better picture than the elite at the same price. Some people I respect a lot, like umr, were in this camp. I'm trying to figure this out for myself. What gets me the better picture - 6020 + processor or 151 (or Signature series)?I understood UMR to be saying that the calibrated 6010 was slightly less accurate than the calibrated 150. I think he also said that the combination of a 6010 and a video processor when calibrated would give outstanding results and would, in most cases, cost less than the 150. Of course the price difference would depend on where you were buying the two models.

I have no idea if you can transfer those comments to the 9G sets. In my case, the cost (AVS sponsor) of the calibrated (UMR) 6010, with the recommended outboard video processor, would have been about equal to the best price I could find at AVS for the 150. I went with the 6010, calibration, and no video processor. :rolleyes:

Did umr's comment also include the price for him to do the setup and calibration?The comments I heard from UMR, and read here did.

When you guys talk about pure mode and other color settings, are you guys changing these setting per movie or per show? Or are you guys just setting everything up once and it just looks great from there? I really don't watch that much tv and when I do I know I am not going to want to mess with settings often, I am just wondering if I am going to use these elite settings or not. If it's a one time thing that makes everything look better, then I can see spending the money for it, but if it's something I have to do often, then I am probaly the type of person that wouldn't use it.

I guess I'd have to buy it and wait to use it until after his visit.There is no way I would try to set up one myself. ;)

My 7G and 8G are calibrated to the Pure mode and I do not change the settings.

When you guys talk about pure mode and other color settings, are you guys changing these setting per movie or per show? Or are you guys just setting everything up once and it just looks great from there? I really don't watch that much tv and when I do I know I am not going to want to mess with settings often, I am just wondering if I am going to use these elite settings or not. If it's a one time thing that makes everything look better, then I can see spending the money for it, but if it's something I have to do often, then I am probaly the type of person that wouldn't use it.

Yeah, for me, it was viewing a B & O that made me understand how important blacks are. Even though their sets seemed to have really great processing, they look washed out to me. I'm pretty sure it was the black levels that created the problem. I also went to two different B & Os that had their plasmas set up facing windows. Either the reflections were worse than most other screens or they just had incredibly bright windows.Or incrediby stupid managers. :)

How may one avail himself of UMR's services?

How may one avail himself of UMR's services?

Send him a PM. I also know other calibrators if he is not available.

How may one avail himself of UMR's services?His name is Jeff Meier and this is his web site.

http://www.accucalhd.com/

You can also send him or any other calibrator a PM using their AVS user names.

Check the two links at the bottom of my post for owner reviews.

One other important thing about Elite is the Pure mode that it has. I believe anyone who has an Elite knows the value is well worth it, as it relates to the quality of image.

This is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I've heard nothing but over the moon raves about Pure mode. So I suppose I'm weighing which leads to best picture: elite with pure mode or non-elite with no pure mode but advantages of an external processor? So far, nobody's been able to contrast those two things for me. I know I need to wait for the 9th G to be released, as this may be different this year anyway.


I understood UMR to be saying that the calibrated 6010 was slightly less accurate than the calibrated 150. I think he also said that the combination of a 6010 and a video processor when calibrated would give outstanding results and would, in most cases, cost less than the 150. Of course the price difference would depend on where you were buying the two models.

I have no idea if you can transfer those comments to the 9G sets. In my case, the cost (AVS sponsor) of the calibrated (UMR) 6010, with the recommended outboard video processor, would have been about equal to the best price I could find at AVS for the 150. I went with the 6010, calibration, and no video processor. :rolleyes:

Yeah, Jeff told me, and my own research confirmed, that my best available prices on everything resulted in those two potential setups costing the same thing. So the only question becomes which is better?

This is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I've heard nothing but over the moon raves about Pure mode. So I suppose I'm weighing which leads to best picture: elite with pure mode or non-elite with no pure mode but advantages of an external processor? So far, nobody's been able to contrast those two things for me. I know I need to wait for the 9th G to be released, as this may be different this year anyway.




Yeah, Jeff told me, and my own research confirmed, that my best available prices on everything resulted in those two potential setups costing the same thing. So the only question becomes which is better?


Just out of curiousity, if the external processor makes the non elite look as good or close to the elite, will it have the same advantage for the elite if caliberated right? I really have no clue what I am talking about, but I figured if there is a way to get a better picture from the elite without having to spend too much more money why not ask.

General Session begins on Wednesday, with 2 product training sessions that afternoon. Thursday completes with 2 more product training sessions.

So expect more info on Wednesday.

Russ

Russ, will you be at the road show? I was invited and of course, will be attending.

-Robert

Russ, will you be at the road show? I was invited and of course, will be attending.

-Robert

I was invited as well, but will be unable to attend. I even have a room, but my personal and professional schedule would not permit. Would have been great to meet up with you. Maybe someday I'll get into the AV industry and can start attending these events, instead of just doing this for fun.

Russ

Just out of curiousity, if the external processor makes the non elite look as good or close to the elite, will it have the same advantage for the elite if caliberated right? I really have no clue what I am talking about, but I figured if there is a way to get a better picture from the elite without having to spend too much more money why not ask.

Great question. I don't know. Anyone?

Great question. I don't know. Anyone?It seems to me that as complete accuracy, as a goal, is approached, there is a diminishing return for each improvement. In my case, I think I would stop being able to distinguish between the "before" and the "after" states.

If they made a power supply change that corrects the buzz for 9G, I wonder if there will be a modified power supply made available for the 8G's to cure the problem...

FYI for 8G owners. My 1150 had the dreaded buzz, but Pioneer fixed it. At some point a few months ago my set started to turn off by itself and would not stay on after that for more than 15 minutes or so. They sent a team to my house to fix it. Essentially they didn't even check to see the problem (my set came on but they didn't want to wait 5 minutes for it to go off). They removed the entire board from the back (on the left side if you are looking at it from behind) and replaced it with a new one. All problems fixed! Thanks Pioneer.

When you guys talk about pure mode and other color settings, are you guys changing these setting per movie or per show? Or are you guys just setting everything up once and it just looks great from there? I really don't watch that much tv and when I do I know I am not going to want to mess with settings often, I am just wondering if I am going to use these elite settings or not. If it's a one time thing that makes everything look better, then I can see spending the money for it, but if it's something I have to do often, then I am probaly the type of person that wouldn't use it.
Thats an excellent question, I would love to know that be it Elite or non-Elite, will I have to change settings everytime I am watching a movie or sports. I just want to
set it up once and never have to change the settings.

If Elite provide best PQ and a user does not have to change the settings everytime, I am all for getting an Elite.

If after callibration, a non-Elite can provide equivalent PQ to Elite and no settings have to be changed, then a non-Elite maybe an option.

Thanks, the Confusion is killing me.

What outboard video processor is being suggested to supplement a non-Elite that would be less expensive or the same price than the different between in price between an Elite and non-Elite display? Many processors are much more than that difference, so I was wondering.

What outboard video processor is being suggested to supplement a non-Elite that would be less expensive or the same price than the different between in price between an Elite and non-Elite display? Many processors are much more than that difference, so I was wondering.Here you go.

Lumagen video processor (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13034484&highlight=processor#post13034484)

... will I have to change settings everytime I am watching a movie or sports.I just want to set it up once and never have to change the settings.... and a user does not have to change the settings everytime ... and no settings have to be changed, then a non-Elite maybe an option.There is variation in all video sources. It's especially true that TV material is constantly changing -- even within the same program episode.

Our Kuro 6010 is calibrated for our normal viewing room conditions. I never make changes because the source, either DVD or Cable, is not perfect.

You may want to rethink your obsession. ;)

Hopefully Jeff (umr) and other calibrators notice this thread and give us their input. The whole Elite vs. Video Processor/standard lineup in a great question. Also in the future, you can easily upgrade the processor alone.

Also, the end result of a remote calibration will not be the same as an in-house calibration.

I assumed remote calibration might not be the same quality as in-house. Is this because the calibrator has to visually see the actual live-screen picture?

When you guys talk about pure mode and other color settings, are you guys changing these setting per movie or per show? Or are you guys just setting everything up once and it just looks great from there? I really don't watch that much tv and when I do I know I am not going to want to mess with settings often, I am just wondering if I am going to use these elite settings or not. If it's a one time thing that makes everything look better, then I can see spending the money for it, but if it's something I have to do often, then I am probaly the type of person that wouldn't use it.


Like the guy in the commercial says:

"Set it and Forget it!"

I want to know where you can get those processors (Lumagen HDP and HDQ) for a price that's less than the difference between an Elite and Non-Elite.

How exactly can you perform a remote ISF calibration without a sensor of some kind taking a reading off the screen?

Remember that the plasma is a computer ... of sorts ... and so it will be able to communicate its data over the internet.

Here you go.

Lumagen video processor (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13034484&highlight=processor#post13034484)

I have a Lumagen VisionPro HDP. It's a great processor, but if your goal is wanting a better CMS than what's in the Elite, look elsewhere. The HD* series don't have enough gates for the full 3D-CMS in the Radiance. If you get the primaries perfect, then secondaries change too. It's "possible" but would only be luck if how the HD* series does its "CMS" that whatever primary error would exactly fix the secondary issue too. But it's highly improbable.

Read here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=993724&highlight=Lumagen

If I were getting a 9G Elite/Signature, I'd probably only use it with my Panasonic SDI DVD player, the DVD-RP82. Since in my opinion, it's one of the very best stand alone DVD players, with the mod. Because I already have the equipment, buying a player to beat it using HDMI, would be stupid.

Hey reio-ta. I tried to read that thread, but it was WAAAY over my head. Can you tell us what you mean by primaries and secondaries? Any other info that would be useful to us that you can translate into lay terms?

Thanks for your work here.

Hey reio-ta. I tried to read that thread, but it was WAAAY over my head. Can you tell us what you mean by primaries and secondaries? Any other info that would be useful to us that you can translate into lay terms?

Thanks for your work here.

What else do you need to know?

As for what primaries and secondaries mean:

Red, Green, Blue are primaries
Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow are secondaries.

http://triangleparkcreative.com/images/posted/84ffc75ed0ceda1d425e452052e74f27.gif

It'd be just like in real life. Say you made a transparency with red, green and blue and had all shades of each color. You then overlapped them. If your error isn't a simple one, where all three are equally off, like if you didn't overlap your colors properly, but the shades are correct. If you had an error with your red toner being too low, then by fixing red, you'd need to fix blue and green by a different amount. That's doing it in "3-D". The Radiance allows you to offset the secondaries and primaries at the same time, using a complex color warping algorithm, which I was told by Lumagen themselves how the Radiance CMS works. The HD* series uses the old, non-warping, method before adding a 3-D method. The new method mimics adding unequal amounts of red, green and blue correction, that's what you want. The old method only works if you shift the color equally in red, green and blue, which is pretty much useless but better than nothing in most cases, and most of the time is a preference. Sometimes the HD* method can give an equally wrong result, but it's more pleasing to you. Say you do like Tom did, only his green was off. Look at the chart. The direction he pushed green made yellows wrong, but by a lesser degree than green was off. Apparently his error was green needed to go more towards the red direction. You could argue that he just shifted the error, and if you like your reds and yellows untouched, his "fixing" the error on his Sony CRT wouldn't be a fix for you.

Thanks, that was exactly what I was asking for. This definitely has me leaning back toward the elite. I appreciate the help.

What are the highs and lows. I periodically see things in the settings thread that have RGB high and low offsets. I assume the lows change how the lower level of those colors looks. But explain more in depth please.

When you say you had the "dreaded buzz", do you mean the type that came from the front of the panel (seemingly right out of the glass) or from the power supply? With my 8G, the buzz was not at all connected with the power supply. From the back, it was from both the left and right panels; in the front it seemed to coverge as a sound "beam" at its worst at ear level when someone sat across from the panel. Is this what you had before the fix? By the way, the reason I am using the past tense here is because I returned my 8G; I couldn't take the buzz.

If you did have a similar panel buzz, there is perhaps hope that there is a fix that will be engineered into the 9G's.


FYI for 8G owners. My 1150 had the dreaded buzz, but Pioneer fixed it. At some point a few months ago my set started to turn off by itself and would not stay on after that for more than 15 minutes or so. They sent a team to my house to fix it. Essentially they didn't even check to see the problem (my set came on but they didn't want to wait 5 minutes for it to go off). They removed the entire board from the back (on the left side if you are looking at it from behind) and replaced it with a new one. All problems fixed! Thanks Pioneer.

So, there is no real PQ advantage with the Elite uless you get your set professionally calibrated, is that correct? I don't even know if there is someone in my area that can even do this!

So, there is no real PQ advantage with the Elite uless you get your set professionally calibrated, is that correct? I don't even know if there is someone in my area that can even do this!No... The user calibration on the elites can get you much better PQ than the non-elites.

I assumed remote calibration might not be the same quality as in-house. Is this because the calibrator has to visually see the actual live-screen picture?No. It's how the measurements are taken.

Thanks to xrox for pointing out the following hint at Canadian pricing.

http://marketnews.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=3709

What is interesting is that the Canadian pricing suggested in the article is the same as the US pricing for the non-Elites, $500 more for the Pro 111, and a full $1000 higher for the Pro 151 (though this is less than the $1500 gap between the Pro 150 pricing in CDN vs US).

I am hoping that the Pro 151 pricing may come down once all of the remaining 150's are gone. (It seems there are a few left with the MRSP still at $8999). Otherwise, the $2000 gap between the Elite and non-Elite 60" set seems very big to me.

a Kuro Elite owner has those added options to tweak their set better then the regular Kuros. a good isf calibration would make them even closer but it's not a huge difference.

So, there is no real PQ advantage with the Elite uless you get your set professionally calibrated, is that correct? I don't even know if there is someone in my area that can even do this!Incorrect. The Elites will look better out of the box due to Colorspace2 and Pure mode. You will never be able to "fix" a non Elite's CIE color points without an outboard scaler. If one can get everything in the same package (Elite) for the same cost as a non-Elite plus an outboard scaler that MUST be calibrated by a professional, what sense does it make to go the latter?

To be fair to Robert, he didn't say the difference between 8G and 9G was the same as 7G to 8G. Rather, he said it was noticeable but not as significant as the prior jump.

You quoted me 100% accurately. At CES Pioneer had private viewing demo room set up with 8G and 9G panels exactly next to each other. I was also invited to Cesar's Palace where Pioneer had a private suite with senior product managers and product trainig specialists doing excellent presentations showing off the 7G, 8G and 9G and some high end competitors products.

So accurate comparisons were easy to evaluate and to my golden eyes you could clearly see the finer detail and blacker blacks on the 9G Kuro display vs. the 8G, but the black level improvement was not as dramatic as the jump form the 7G models.

This Tuesday through Friday I'll be in CA at Pioneer's Elite dealer training so we'll all learn more once I get back to my hotel room each night to post what I learn.

-Robert

You quoted me 100% accurately. At CES Pioneer had private viewing demo room set up with 8G and 9G panels exactly next to each other. I was also invited to Cesar's Palace where Pioneer had a private suite with senior product managers and product trainig specialists doing excellent presentations showing off the 7G, 8G and 9G and some high end competitors products.

So accurate comparisons were easy to evaluate and to my golden eyes you could clearly see the finer detail and blacker blacks on the 9G Kuro display vs. the 8G, but the black level improvement was not as dramatic as the jump form the 7G models.

This Tuesday through Friday I'll be in CA at Pioneer's Elite dealer training so we'll all learn more once I get back to my hotel room each night to post what I learn.

-RobertHave fun on your trip Robert (lucky b$#%@@*) :D

Hopefully Jeff (umr) and other calibrators notice this thread and give us their input. The whole Elite vs. Video Processor/standard lineup in a great question. Also in the future, you can easily upgrade the processor alone.

It is hard to say what would be best for a display that does not exist. The gray scale, gamma and color adjustments in the Lumagen unit's has been superior to what is in the prior model Elite's.

No. It's how the measurements are taken.

You threw me such a small morsel, D-Nice. Bear with me here .... Does the calibrator's instruments have to take visual/light data from the screen itself? Otherwise, he could "plug" his analytical/calibration equipment into the plasma's electronics via the internet and measure and manipulate to his heart's content ... and do it from most anywhere in the world.

You threw me such a small morsel, D-Nice. Bear with me here .... Does the calibrator's instruments have to take visual/light data from the screen itself? Otherwise, he could "plug" his analytical/calibration equipment into the plasma's electronics via the internet and measure and manipulate to his heart's content ... and do it from most anywhere in the world.I don't think he is allowed (by his source.) to give us much more information on the remote ISFing of the signatures.

It is hard to say what would be best for a display that does not exist. The gray scale, gamma and color adjustments in the Lumagen unit's has been superior to what is in the prior model Elite's.I will have to disagree with you here as you do not use ISFccc. I understand why you do not like it, however, looking only at the capabilities, the law of diminishing returns play a factor here.

Geeez, I need to take two aspirins and go to bed...I feel a "plasma fever" coming on!

Robert, have a great trip, and looking forward to your upcoming posts from Pio Elite Boot Camp!

I don't think he is allowed (by his source.) to give us much more information on the remote ISFing of the signatures.

I've seen graphic artists use instruments that stick onto the face of a computer screen which are used to calibrate color output ... and what is a plasma screen but a computer screen? So I don't think he'd be giving away any state secretes. But I could easily be wrong. I'm by no means the expert here ... which is why I'm here.

This is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I've heard nothing but over the moon raves about Pure mode. So I suppose I'm weighing which leads to best picture: elite with pure mode or non-elite with no pure mode but advantages of an external processor? So far, nobody's been able to contrast those two things for me. I know I need to wait for the 9th G to be released, as this may be different this year anyway....

This is an impossible question to answer.

1) These displays have some significant variability. Some 8G Elites in the past can be setup to have nearly perfect color performance while others cannot. Some will work well in pure others will not. I had one for example the other day that was way desaturated in color space 2 and had to be calibrated in color space 1 to have good color performance. It seems to vary with the display factory calibration and phosphorus batch.

2) The 9G is not available so no one knows what they will look like.

3) Pioneer's CMS is not correctly implemented because the white will shift when non-white point CMS moves are made. This is not correct.

4) The difference in what is achievable with an external processor versus a display will depend on the sample chosen for comparison. In some cases the difference will be subtle while in others it will be less so.

I would purchase a RadianceXD with an Elite and calibrate it properly if you want to have certainty of the absolute best display performance. Unfortunately, that is a very expensive option. All other options are a crap shoot to some degree.

I've seen graphic artists use instruments that stick onto the face of a computer screen which are used to calibrate color output ... and what is a plasma screen but a computer screen? So I don't think he'd be giving away any state secretes. But I could easily be wrong. I'm by no means the expert here ... which is why I'm here.I (kind of) know how on-site calibration works. But the secret or whatever that he can't tell us isn't on-site. It is the way that they record and send the data. I'm :confused::confused:

Wow! Thanks umr ... I kinda feel like I did when the Fed's Greenspan would speak before Congress. It all sounded cool ... I understood some of it and actually learned something useful ... but most of it was way over my head. Do you have anything to offer re. the Signature Kuro's abilities at remote calibration?

...Do you have anything to offer re. the Signature Kuro's abilities at remote calibration?

Remote calibration makes no sense to me.

1) The best instruments for this task need to be in your home. I do not see how this is going to happen without the person who knows how to use it there. Mine for example costs $24,000. I will not be mailing it to your home so you can use it.

2) Many things go wrong outside of the display. These include things like wiring, source configuration, source firmware errors, room lighting and positioning.

3) Many things go wrong besides what the instrument can see. These include things like source resolution, scaling, deinterlacing, enhancements, sharpness and near black details.

4) The final picture performance is what really matters and not some numbers. Someone who knows the look must confirm that the adjustments are really working well. When you know the look and see the same material many times a day you can tell when something is off and know you need to chase it down.

I got it ... thanks. ... I guess remote A/V calibration is like the doctor diagnosing and treating the patient by phone. Oh well ... when are you coming to Thailand?

I got it ... remote calibration is like the doctor diagnosing and treating the patient by phone.Not really. All manufacturers are going this route. And I guarantee it's going to piss a lot of calibrators off.

BTW, the Signature series is fully capable of "reading" it's environment during remote calibration ;)

Signature Kuro's abilities at remote calibration?

The only thing I can think of is the Signature series allows remote changes of settings. A person will call a number, this could be either automated or with a real person. The calibration will then be similar to when you go to the eye doctor. You're given a chart which shows what bluer looks like, redder, and greener. The settings are then changed and you give your responses. Then they ask, "what's brighter," etc. This goes on answering all their questions. Based on your responses what you're seeing, they can calculate a "rough estimate" of what changes need to be made based on your: preference, lighting, and other factors pertaining to you. I see this as then most likely if your wife calls in, she'll get mostly a result SHE likes. If you want a "look" you like, you'll have to do the "calibration." So pretty much I think you're getting a DVE Blu-ray calibration, but even simpler and automated.

It is hard to say what would be best for a display that does not exist. The gray scale, gamma and color adjustments in the Lumagen unit's has been superior to what is in the prior model Elite's.

I was mainly referring refering to the 8g's which you answered below in a response so thank you :)

I assume if the CMS was going to be greatly changed we'd heard it by now from D-Nice. I assume it'll be the same as last year with small changes.

The only thing I can think of is the Signature series allows remote changes of settings. A person will call a number, this could be either automated or with a real person. The calibration will then be similar to when you go to the eye doctor. You're given a chart which shows what bluer looks like, redder, and greener. The settings are then changed and you give your responses. Then they ask, "what's brighter," etc. This goes on answering all their questions. Based on your responses what you're seeing, they can calculate a "rough estimate" of what changes need to be made based on your: preference, lighting, and other factors pertaining to you. I see this as then most likely if your wife calls in, she'll get mostly a result SHE likes. If you want a "look" you like, you'll have to do the "calibration." So pretty much I think you're getting a DVE Blu-ray calibration, but even simpler and automated.Hmmmmm, nope.

Not really. All manufacturers are going this route. And I guarantee it's going to piss a lot of calibrators off.

BTW, the Signature series is fully capable of "reading" it's environment during remote calibration ;)

They can actually read and send data on the ambient lighting around the plasma?

BTW, I need no convincing that the long-experienced and trained eye of a calibration pro is far superior to number crunching by a computer ... although there's bound to be some variation in what different calibrator see as "correct."

If the Signature remote calibration is as successful as the automatic audio calibration used by Pioneer and others there is no threat of them doing the job right.

Umr ... if I can again .... Do you have any preferences for the color of walls, ceiling & floor of the viewing room? Does it vary according to the rooms natural and electrical lighting? Or is there one ideal color? Texture? Finish?

Incorrect. The Elites will look better out of the box due to Colorspace2 and Pure mode. You will never be able to "fix" a non Elite's CIE color points without an outboard scaler. If one can get everything in the same package (Elite) for the same cost as a non-Elite plus an outboard scaler that MUST be calibrated by a professional, what sense does it make to go the latter?



D-Nice, here's a question for you...what will look better, an ISF-calibrated PDP5010, or an out of the box Pro110FD? There is a logic to my phrasing the question this way. I can get ISF done for cheaper than the difference between the two tvs. So, for me, the PDP5010 plus ISF is more affordable than the Pro110FD, IF the picture on the calibrated non-Elite can be better than the out-of-box Elite.

Hmmmmm, nope.

Well, no one else has seen this. I made my best guess :D

Umr ... if I can again .... Do you have any preferences for the color of walls, ceiling & floor of the viewing room? Does it vary according to the rooms natural and electrical lighting? Or is there one ideal color? Texture? Finish?

I am not sure there is an ideal color for every room. It would depend on its use and your taste.

I am a fan of front projectors personally. For that application I would use very dark colors and eliminate any light sources other than the projector from the room when it is in use. I would also keep reflective objects to a minimum if possible. Using folded fabric on the walls like that found in theaters is also effective for sound and light control.

With a plasma you are less constrained because they are more versatile than most projector applications. For those I would try and keep the light at a low level and minimize display reflections. They tend to be a little bright for a completely dark room unless you drop the contrast, but you are tossing contrast ratio when you do that. I would stay away from strong colors around the display.

If the Signature remote calibration is as successful as the automatic audio calibration used by Pioneer and others there is no threat of them doing the job right.Just like everything else in America, it isn't about perfection, it's about "good enough". The target base for the Signature series will rely far more on their "installation" package than calling someone else to do calibration.

You can look at BB's current Geek Squad calibration service as reference point on what the future holds for the ISF market. As pathetic as is may be, their client base far exceeds yours.

For those I would try and keep the light at a low level and minimize display reflections. .

How would you do that? Let's assume you can get even the 40,000:1 on/off CR which is touted as the minimum CR rating of the 9Gs. Assuming also, the calibration will have a peak white of 35 foot lamberts, you'd need your ambient lighting to be below the black level in order to perceive the plasma as not emitting any light at all and gain all the benefits of the 40,000:1 cr? If that's true, you'd need a 0.000875 light source on at all times. How do you do that? Even a 0.001 light source on at all times would only allow a maximum of 35,000:1? And the brighter ambient lighting, the lower CR goes?

;13839729']D-Nice, here's a question for you...what will look better, an ISF-calibrated PDP5010, or an out of the box Pro110FD? There is a logic to my phrasing the question this way. I can get ISF done for cheaper than the difference between the two tvs. So, for me, the PDP5010 plus ISF is more affordable than the Pro110FD, IF the picture on the calibrated non-Elite can be better than the out-of-box Elite.The 5010. However, place my settings on the 110FD and ask me that same question ;)

D-Nice,

with your settings, will the ISF calibrator most likely keep close to those (since they seem to be close to reference) and then just adjust the calibration settings from those? or would i end up with completely different settings on both ends?

D-Nice,

with your settings, will the ISF calibrator most likely keep close to those (since they seem to be close to reference) and then just adjust the calibration settings from those? or would i end up with completely different settings on both ends?Depends on the calibrator. There is more than one way to hit D65.

I have asked for permission so I can clarify/comment regarding the above (new feature).... I'm not sure it's time.. :(

I have asked for permission so I can clarify/comment regarding the above (new feature).... I'm not sure it's time.. :(Which comment?

several posts, but specifically about the speculation concerning a new feature recently being discussed above.

D-Nice,

with your settings, will the ISF calibrator most likely keep close to those (since they seem to be close to reference) and then just adjust the calibration settings from those? or would i end up with completely different settings on both ends?

Yes, that'd be true. If and only if D-Nice gave you his personal Kuro and you had it calibrated. Try this out. Get a penny, weigh just one. How many pennies are in a pound? You could weigh one, then divide by a pound. You'll get close. But actually keep adding pennies, until you get a pound. The actual number of pennies will be a few pennies more or less. This will happen even if you get mint uncirculated pennies. Pennies should be easy to make compared to a Kuro you'd think? But even with a penny it's not happening, so just imagine what happens with your Kuro. With every piece having a tolerance, those tolerances interact. So in the end you have a close but not exact Kuro from the same exact model. I bet if you looked carefully enough, you could even spot cosmetic differences between two of the same model. Now you want all electronic components to be 100% exactly the same? Every singly gas filled plasma cell to be 100% the same cell to cell, let alone from each different Kuro?

several posts, but specifically about the speculation concerning a new feature recently being discussed above.Ahhh, good luck on that one :)

thanks D-nice. and reio-ta, i get what you're saying. really detailed in the analogy there.......... ha.

i'll probably wait a month or two and then get it calibrated.

Yes, that'd be true. If and only if D-Nice gave you his personal Kuro and you had it calibrated. Try this out. Get a penny, weigh just one. How many pennies are in a pound? You could weigh one, then divide by a pound. You'll get close. But actually keep adding pennies, until you get a pound. The actual number of pennies will be a few pennies more or less. This will happen even if you get mint uncirculated pennies. Pennies should be easy to make compared to a Kuro you'd think? But even with a penny it's not happening, so just imagine what happens with your Kuro. With every piece having a tolerance, those tolerances interact. So in the end you have a close but not exact Kuro from the same exact model. I bet if you looked carefully enough, you could even spot cosmetic differences between two of the same model. Now you want all electronic components to be 100% exactly the same? Every singly gas filled plasma cell to be 100% the same cell to cell, let alone from each different Kuro?

Thanks for the excellent analogy. I'm in the medical field, and I work every day to construct comprehensible analogies for non-medical personnel. It's very refreshing to see other experts in their field finding ways to educate the laypeople.:o

Thanks to xrox for pointing out the following hint at Canadian pricing.

http://marketnews.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=3709

What is interesting is that the Canadian pricing suggested in the article is the same as the US pricing for the non-Elites, $500 more for the Pro 111, and a full $1000 higher for the Pro 151 (though this is less than the $1500 gap between the Pro 150 pricing in CDN vs US).

I am hoping that the Pro 151 pricing may come down once all of the remaining 150's are gone. (It seems there are a few left with the MRSP still at $8999). Otherwise, the $2000 gap between the Elite and non-Elite 60" set seems very big to me.
Unfortunately I seriously doubt the Canadian and American MSRPs will be the same, I'm relatively sure his pricing on the 20fd's is incorrect. I don't know of any confirmed Canadian pricing on them yet, but I would imagine the 5020 will be at least $4500CDN, and the 6020 will be around $6500CDN. I hope I'm wrong though.