QC has nothing to do with buzzing. You are talking about Pioneer's top of the line elite models 111/151, do you think it will sit well with current elite owners if the same price or less expensive (it won't be more as D-Nice has already stated) models are released and they have "better QC"? The reason you might hear the Kuro buzz more than other plasmas is because they use a single glass design instead of the double. Will the Sig line have less buzz? Its possible, but it won't have anything to do with QC. It will be because there is less electronics (no speakers,no tuner,etc.) Since the main cause of the buzz comes from the panel itself then I would guess you will also hear buzzing in a quite room with the Sig series.
I'm sorry...but unless you work there, I think it's a bit misleading to imply that you know with such authority what the additional QC and hand-picked parts will or won't provide.

After reading the press release I guess this is also why it was stated that the panels would have better contrast than the 111/151.

"Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc. today announces the new Signature Series of Elite® KURO monitors tailored specifically for custom installers with a unique set of features for seamless high-end installations. The new Elite KURO monitors join Pioneer’s 2008 line of high-definition televisions and accomplish yet another milestone in Pioneer’s Project KURO initiatives. The end result is an even greater improvement to industry leading black levels accountable for added contrast, deeper colors and the supreme picture quality the KURO name has become synonymous with."

According to D-Nice, the above info is false. D-Nice also said they will not be more expensive than the 111/151. I think I will go with what D-Nice says instead of a marketing fluff piece from Pioneer. You can also see in the press release that the Sig Series has the same 2 year warranty as the 111/151.
Ummm...you may want to re-read that section of the press release. It doesn't contradict anything D-Nice has said. The second line of that paragraph refers to ALL flavors of the Elite Kuro monitors...not just the Signature series. The "end result" about the greater improvement to black levels etc, the paragraph is talking about, refers to ALL the Elite line.

Granted, tricky marketing speak, but hardly at odds with the fact that the regular elites and the Signature elites share the same specs, which is what D-Nice was saying.

He did:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13971311#post13971311

I thought you couldn't adjust the color level on these?!


bob

Can someone help me out? In upper right hand corner it would show the resolutions at 480i or 720p or 1080i unless I was doing breakin DVD or any other DVD it would show 1080p which the signal was being up converted to. I must have done something since now, no matter which channel I am on it always says 1080p on my 6020. Thanks

I'm sorry...but unless you work there, I think it's a bit misleading to imply that you know with such authority what the additional QC and hand-picked parts will or won't provide.

You are right...I should state that it is my opinion that additional QC and hand picked parts is nothing but BS marketing by Pioneer. My opinion's validity is further solidified by the fact that even though Pioneer is claiming to have better QC and hand picked parts they back this statement up with the same 2 YEAR WARRANTY on the Signature Series as the Elite 111/151 models get.:rolleyes: Just like I tend to look at a company's 10K statement instead of listening to a babbling CEO speak his BS.;)

I thought you couldn't adjust the color level on these?!


bob


You can't adjust the color temp. (low,mid,high)

Have any of you guys watched a regular DVD upconverted by your PS3 on your 6020 with D-Nice's reference settings??
I just put in "30 days of night " like this and I have to say, I have never seen a DVD look so good. It looks almost as good as my Comcast HD. My days of only renting blu-rays is over. DVD can look amazing on the 6020.
Let me ask this,
Will I get a better picture if i let the 6020 do all the upconverting? I don't have a regular DVD player. But I guess I could manually change the output on my PS3 to 480i the let the kuro do the upconverting.
Maybe the Kuro can do better.

So we got in out new 5020 at BB today. After setting it up right next to the 5010 I noticed a horrible delay between cut shots. It seemed to have a lag a couple milliseconds behind the 5010 and the other televisions on the wall. Also during fast action seems to have that 120hz unnatural motion like the samsungs. Anyone know of this problem or a solution?

Turn the feature off from the menu system.

QC has nothing to do with buzzing. You are talking about Pioneer's top of the line elite models 111/151, do you think it will sit well with current elite owners if the same price or less expensive (it won't be more as D-Nice has already stated) models are released and they have "better QC"?

I have every damn right to believe the QC control was not up to par on the
elites as I am a former owner of a very expensive (read: $8K Canadian) Pro-150FD
elite TV who had to deal with Pioneer's lackluster support. I had to deal with
both:

STREAKS - a flaw in the panel already confirmed by D-Nice earlier.
SERIOUS BUZZING - something that not everyone experiences.

So, don't even think I am going to believe the elites had the strictest QC. :mad:

The end result is an even greater improvement to industry leading black levels accountable for added contrast, deeper colors and the supreme picture quality the KURO name has become synonymous with."

Yep, that and all 9G Kuros when compared to last year's models.

I like the overal PQ ,But I must be completely honest, I do not understand what in the world Pioeer was thinking when they removed all of the color temp settins


Sounds like to me Pioneer made it easier for consumers to dial in a picture they like that's also more correct.

It's not really the Jazzy. I gave the picture of it to my contractor and he just looked at the picture and built it for me. He also built this bar. See attached.

Nice!

There's a setting on the 9G where if it idles for a few hours with no activity, it will shut off. Just turn that feature on when you run the break in DVD.

-D

Are you sure that would work? I read the manual about that feature and took it that there would have to be no signal (or snow) for it to do that.

To me, a signal that reads "error" or anything else from a DVD player would still be a signal going to that panel.

Are you saying that if there is no change in the signal (even if it's showing just one color all that time) after a few hours, that it will shut off?

I don't think theirs no scientific evidence that the break in dvd will break in a plasma tv better than not using it, if fact i think it could be worse as when you watch regular content all rgb pixels are being used instead of just a few color patterns being flashed. If you really want your plasma to be 100% burn in free you will have to monitor it 'if' you game alot, just wide and full screen content for the first 150hrs wont even make a kuro hiccup. But if it makes you feel better, all that counts, run it for hours on end :)

I think it's like anything else that's new. A new light bulb, head lamp, chemicals or anything else that's stronger when new then levels off and stays at a steady rate. I would think having it at break in settings and playing the break in DVD, that helps accelerate the brand newness level of performance. After break in, that would be a good time to then have it calibrated so the chance of it drifting will be greatly reduced.

It's not recommended, however it would simply take longer to break it in. One thing I did read is that burn in risk is higher than when the set has been broken in.

may take awhile as there are only 2 pro151 owners so far :) and dont think they had Pro150s.

as for any difference in the buzz well that varies with each set, some have no buzz, some a low or little and some a noticeable/problematic buzz issue on the 8g models and already being reported on the 9g too.

IF you have a Pro150 that does not buzz I would recommend keeping it. if you got a Pro151 that does have the buzz issue any slight amount of pq increase would not be worth that problem. it's different if you can just afford to get a new one or sell the Pro150 easily and also have a local dealer who would exchange the new Pro151 easily if it did have the buzz issue, so your choice depending on your situation.

Thanks, Dssturbo1.

I'm thinking about selling my Fhd-1 as well as a Mark Levinson cd player to help pay for it.

The fhd-1 is currently in the bedroom and, if I decided to sell it, I'll move the Pro 150 into the bedroom.

Overkill, but hey, that's why were visit this site.

Does anyone know if the Signature monitor will have the same glossy bezel as the other Pioneer TV's?

Turn the feature off from the menu system.

The smooth feature was never on. I changed the setting from standard to off, but the television still has the same jerky motion between cut scenes and the 120hz unnatural motion during high speed action.

the 6020 is on best buys website. so hopefully pretty soon we can see them in the stores before we buy them from the sponsers!

the 6020 is on best buys website. so hopefully pretty soon we can see them in the stores before we buy them from the sponsers!

I just hope that the 5020 that we got in store is not the norm. The delay and stutter is too much to bare. The color seem to be on axis vs the 5010, no more shift toward red. The whites are great on par with the panasonic pz-800.

Yeah, they did a good job, but for all the headaches we experienced with our contractor, maybe it would have been a lot easier to just order the Jazzy! How much does it cost anyway??? 3 grand??
Yeah, right at 3 grand

Have any of you guys watched a regular DVD upconverted by your PS3 on your 6020 with D-Nice's reference settings??
I just put in "30 days of night " like this and I have to say, I have never seen a DVD look so good. It looks almost as good as my Comcast HD. My days of only renting blu-rays is over. DVD can look amazing on the 6020.
Let me ask this,
Will I get a better picture if i let the 6020 do all the upconverting? I don't have a regular DVD player. But I guess I could manually change the output on my PS3 to 480i the let the kuro do the upconverting.
Maybe the Kuro can do better.


I would like to know this also.

Can anyone tell me are the 9g tvs just as bright or brighter than sony CRTs in all conditions i mean when its dark or sunlight do you get the same results as a crt on 9g pioneers ? or are thay slightly duller

if you turn off the signal that defeats the purpose of having pixels running lol so if no pixels are running your just wasting time as no pixels are ageing....


Would it be a good idea to turn this feature on while using the break-in DVD?

AV Source - No Signal
To save energy and extend the life of your flat panel TV, the panel can enter Standby automatically if the AV source
signal fails for 15 consecutive minutes.

1) theirs a diffrence for most its worth upgrading heck even d-nice said he'd upgrade the 1150 for the 6020 and that was durring inital results

2) the signiture has a ip so calibrators can ajust without not being in person BUT this is not post the same results as in a real person being in flesh lol

3)yes they can be calibrated in person

and i think you should upgrade to the 151, the moniter only offers well the moniter lol no speakers no tuner nothing just moniter..... oh its thinner and slightless hevy but thats it.

Can someone help me understand the following (and, trust me, I already checked before deciding to post, but I must have missed it if the question has been posted before)

1) Can anyone tell me the new features - besides the blacker blacks - of the 151FD compared to the 150FD? I have the 150 and just want to know if it is worth upgrading.

2) What kind of extra calibrations does the Signatures have? Can someone give me an example of what I can calibrate in the Sig that I cannot in the 151?

3) The Signatures can be calibrated remotely, but they also can be calibrated by a calibrator coming to your house so you can get the best calibration possible, right?

I would really appreciate help with these questions if anyone knows the answers because, like a lot of you, I am in the deciding stage of upgrade or not upgrade and, if upgrade, then should I get the 151 or the Signature.

Thanks a MILLION for any assistance you can provide.


If you feed the kuro/elite or non elite it WILL process/upscale better then normal devices like the ps3 or reg dvd player, if you can get an unalter signal like the oppo 980 h through hdmi to the tv then the kuro will upscale to the best possible image, its been said that the kuro will be better then most scalers.

As far as being as bright in term of whites? or more vivid look?


I would like to know this also.

Can anyone tell me are the 9g tvs just as bright or brighter than sony CRTs in all conditions i mean when its dark or sunlight do you get the same results as a crt on 9g pioneers ? or are thay slightly duller

1) theirs a diffrence for most its worth upgrading heck even d-nice said he'd upgrade the 6020 for the 1150 and that was durring inital results



Uh, I think you misinterpreted D-Nice. He said the 6020 was better than the 8G's, minus the greens.

no i heard him right and you can re his post, another member asked him if he would trade his elite 1150 over the 20 series and he said yes and yes i'm aware of the slight green push but re read it man he did state it that he'd take a 9g non elite over a 8g elite\


edit: so i took the words slight off but he did say probably

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14069064&postcount=4448

no i heard him right and you can re his post, another member asked him if he would trade his elite 1150 over the 20 series and he said yes and yes i'm aware of the slight green push but re read it man he did state it that he'd take a 9g non elite over a 8g elite\


edit: so i took the words slight off but he did say probably

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14069064&postcount=4448


I can't give a complete answer to this question right now as I have not had a chance to fully test everything out. If I only went with what I saw last night, I would have to say probably. However, I have yet to test any SDTV, SD DVD, or HD cable sources.



I think the problem is interpretation. I read your post to mean that you were saying that the 1150 was an upgrade over the 6020. You said "upgrade the 6020", when you meant "upgrade to the 6020". All clear now.

Can anyone answer the guy's question about wall clearance on the 151? Is it that critical? I was planning on getting a low-profile (non-tilting) mount as I wanted it as tight to the wall as possible, but now I read that it's going to require 3.5" of clearance? Is it just for heat/airflow problems? My basement is usually pretty dang cool.

no i heard him right and you can re his post, another member asked him if he would trade his elite 1150 over the 20 series and he said yes and yes i'm aware of the slight green push but re read it man he did state it that he'd take a 9g non elite over a 8g elite\


edit: so i took the words slight off but he did say probably

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14069064&postcount=4448

however dnice might be assuming he will eventually get into the service menu, however the way they have the non-elites locked up, this may not be the case. im starting to wonder if the service menu will require some kind of passkey. this would benifit pioneer in more ways than meets the eye.

dful4d thank you for correcting me and i already corrected it. Rlarsen462 yes pioneer inteneds so that heat and airflow can go smooth i would fellow pioneer words oh and d-nice said initaly yep and i have a feeling once he knows the code for sm he can make it better, Sm code is diffrent but its in there

As far as being as bright in term of whites? or more vivid look?[/QUOTE]


both all i want to know is will the picture of a 9g be just as bright as a crt in the day time with light or will it be duller

The smooth feature was never on. I changed the setting from standard to off, but the television still has the same jerky motion between cut scenes and the 120hz unnatural motion during high speed action.

I've noticed slight stuttering on my 6010 on blu-ray movies on certain scenes and I hoped this would be corrected. So the when you say the 120Hz motion (AMP actually I believe) are you referring to the "fake soap opera-ish" type look?

Let me ask this, Will I get a better picture if i let the 6020 do all the upconverting?

Why not try it and find out? :)

Anyone know how to enter the service menu on the 6020?

welcome new member to the forums its been said already, no one has acess to SM yet
ps : try search it helps :D

EDIT: if both the xx20 series and the elite series calibrated then yes the elite will be better then the 20 series,

as far as major difference somewhat of settings have been removed from picture menu and sm.

Thanx for the welcome. Hey does anyone know if there is a distinct difference in PQ for the 151 and the 6020? Is the Elite brighter?

Keep in mind that I have seen hundreds of instances where pixels have been fixed after break in and after people ran Pixar animated DVD's. When it doesnt there is always a way to get taken care of by your vendor as noted above. Good luck and congrats!

Thanks for the suggestion. I have continued to use the break in dvd and watched some more planet earth discs, but the dead pixels are still there. Now that I know where they are, I started noticing them (black dots) on blue backgrounds on the planet earth discs. Unacceptable on a $6500 display.

I will also admit that upon second evaluation of the buzz, I can definitely hear it from a seated position up to 12 feet away with no audio on. It also seems to be directional because it is much less audible when I stand up. This is the least of my concerns, though, and I probably would have kept this TV if it was pixel perfect.

I've noticed slight stuttering on my 6010 on blu-ray movies on certain scenes and I hoped this would be corrected. So the when you say the 120Hz motion (AMP actually I believe) are you referring to the "fake soap opera-ish" type look?

It is that choppy motion that the 120hz samsung and sony television get when they are in that mode. You know the hyper-real look. The pioneer we have only does it in very fast action (e.g. a boat getting tossed around on waves with the camera mounted to the deck). The delay on the other hand is quite noticeable. It seems to freeze for a millisecond on cut scenes. While it is not that noticeable when it is the only tv on, it is very bad when other tv around it are on the same feed. It is like the tv is delaying or doubling the frame when it switches between cut scenes or camera angles. Does anyone know what causes this delay or is it a defective unit and I should sent it back to pio?

focus one try running the jscreen fix google it

Thanks for the suggestion, Gus. Would I have to purchase this program? Because I dont' really feel like purchasing a product to fix my brand new $6500 tv.

And besides that, I think the 2 pixels in the middle of my screen are dead because they are black, not colored. On a white background, they appear dark gray. Here is jscreenfix's quote on that:

"A stuck pixel is a bright dot of colour most noticeable when the rest of the screen is black. Stuck pixels are fairly common on high resolution LCD screens. Stuck pixels sometimes start working again with time unless they appear black on a white background, these are known as dead pixels."

however dnice might be assuming he will eventually get into the service menu, however the way they have the non-elites locked up, this may not be the case. im starting to wonder if the service menu will require some kind of passkey. this would benifit pioneer in more ways than meets the eye.


Yeah unfortunately I think you might be correct. I am now starting to think that ISF technicians will not be able to access the service menu in the XX20 series. With the way Pioneer disabled most of the user settings in the XX20 series and after reading this...If this turns out to be true than the 5020 is out of consideration.

"Unfortunately, I have heard a rumor that Pioneer has stripped the calibration parameters that professional technicians need in the Service Menus of the upcoming Pioneer PDP-5020, and PDP-6020. If this is true, I will be recommending other Plasma models to all of my clients in the market for a new 1080p flat panel HDTV. I will be reporting back on the upcoming 20 series panels, and I will give you a full report."
http://www.tweaktv.com/the-miller-channel/pioneer-pdp-5080-6080-5010-and-6010-calibration-issues-part-ii.html

rumor are rumor so lets put it aside, and hope for the best, btw d-nice can you ask kindly to your contacts to gain acess to sm? how did you find it for the 8g?

hamsamish09 yes but several members who had the 9g tried it then d-nice had his 6020 and guess what? no command of the same previous code made SM so its not the same

8g sm access is the same as 7g and maybe back further g.

8g sm access is the same as 7g and maybe back further g.Now they make a new code for the 9g. Go figure. AND take away simple settings.

if you turn off the signal that defeats the purpose of having pixels running lol so if no pixels are running your just wasting time as no pixels are ageing....

I think you mis understood. I would not be turning off the video signal, I think it's designed to help protect the screen due to a signal that's stuck or stays the same after a certain period of time. Like if the video source was on pause and the same picture showed without change for 15 minutes.


if you turn off the signal that defeats the purpose of having pixels running lol so if no pixels are running your just wasting time as no pixels are ageing....


At the same time, the "no signal" is STILL a signal, even though it's not moving. I'm wondering if this new feature is smart enough to know that the signal no matter what it is, is not moving and will shut off after 15 minutes.


"Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman
Would it be a good idea to turn this feature on while using the break-in DVD?

AV Source - No Signal
To save energy and extend the life of your flat panel TV, the panel can enter Standby automatically if the AV source
signal fails for 15 consecutive minutes."

A few years ago, I came home to a TV screen that said "no signal". I had no idea how long it had been displayed like that. I was lucky there was no burn-in, however I can see how a feature would be helpful if my older TV had this. After about 15 minutes, the TV would have shut off and saved the day.

I was just wondering if that's how it really works, even if the whole screen is stuck on one color due to a error from a DVD player playing the break-in DVD.

I've noticed slight stuttering on my 6010 on blu-ray movies on certain scenes and I hoped this would be corrected. So the when you say the 120Hz motion (AMP actually I believe) are you referring to the "fake soap opera-ish" type look?

There is a 24/72 mode that helps judder and may give it a certain "jerky" look, however that would be a good thing since that's how we see it in the movie theater. Makes me wonder if it's set in that mode?

Thanks for the suggestion. I have continued to use the break in dvd and watched some more planet earth discs, but the dead pixels are still there. Now that I know where they are, I started noticing them (black dots) on blue backgrounds on the planet earth discs. Unacceptable on a $6500 display.

Did you state that you sit something like 13 feet away from the set? Do you notice it there?

i think we missunderstood each other, my ideal is if you enable no signal the picture is gone (no pixels showing on screen) so at this point your tv would be off. as far as knowing if your tv will turn off if say you turn off your dvr or dvd player but you forget your plasma? my current px75u panny turns off if say i turn off my dvr but my tv is on, the tv will give me a msg that in 3 mins it turns off

howver when i'v left my 360 on and i simply forget to turn it off This is not consider no signal and will not turn off UNTIL no acitivity is enabled, on my set 6 hrs has to pass without an ir or actual response happens.

so in terms of a error msg staying on the signal will be there and no activity has to happen in order to turn off

in terms of break in running with no issues the tv will still turn off automatically until you send a signal via remote (ir) or touch a button on the tv.

note this is from my 42px75u panny plasma and i dont know how long or if this feature is even found on the pioneer

It is that choppy motion that the 120hz samsung and sony television get when they are in that mode. You know the hyper-real look. The pioneer we have only does it in very fast action (e.g. a boat getting tossed around on waves with the camera mounted to the deck). The delay on the other hand is quite noticeable. It seems to freeze for a millisecond on cut scenes. While it is not that noticeable when it is the only tv on, it is very bad when other tv around it are on the same feed. It is like the tv is delaying or doubling the frame when it switches between cut scenes or camera angles. Does anyone know what causes this delay or is it a defective unit and I should sent it back to pio?


Wow, have you tried hooking up the video source directly to the display. Another words, do not share the video signal with another TV? I would check to see if that would help.

Good question in post 5042
Unlike last time when I got rid of my Mitsu rptv as soon as I got my 1140 I will do as asystole13 has done and set the 151 aside and break it in while keeping an eye on it.

Unlike Zues in post#4994 I do believe the break-in has positive merits.

"Don't worry about break in dvd imo. Running the break in for 150hrs is just wasted time that you could be watching the tv. There still will be IR after even years of use, pioneer will just have less than other brands. They are very IR resistent. Don't think you can run the break in and wont never get IR."

I have never had ir on my 7g elite or that scary "burn-in" the uninformed worry about.
I have had static images for hours(daughter).

Barn are you going to break-in in another place in your home before setting 151 in its final resting place?

Sounds like to me Pioneer made it easier for consumers to dial in a picture they like that's also more correct.

I don't know about that one.
Seems to me like they are trying to make the differences biggers between the models. It seems like they are making the XX20 models the "entry" kuro's. I am sure that more people will be buyng elite or the sig. series now that you can't do much adjusting.
In my case, if I would have known about the loss of features of the XX20 series before ordering, I would have went elite for sure.

Did you state that you sit something like 13 feet away from the set? Do you notice it there?

That is the distance of the furthest chair from the TV - no, I cannot see the dead pixels from there. However, my main couch is about 8 feet from the set and I can see them from there (especially on a blue background). Plus, I sometimes move the couch a little closer for gaming, in which case it would really bother me. And to be honest, now that I know they exist, it would always bother me if I didn't replace the set.

I see your point, that if I can't see if from a normal viewing distance, why care? But in my eyes, that is beside the point. A TV of this magnitude should be perfect.

I've followed the conversation here on Pioneer's Quality Control. It's disappointing, I don't know how they can let a TV like mine leave the factory. I guess they figure that most won't notice and others won't bother with the inconvenience of returning it. Or I just got unlucky.

I borrowed a truck and just finished repacking all of the small stuff. Now which one of you wants to come help me lift this back into the box and into the truck? ;)

If your near Tampa I would help you. Had to do that with my 1140 due to TV Guide problem. Thankfully for me it's gone in 9g.

I don't think theirs no scientific evidence that the break in dvd will break in a plasma tv better than not using it, if fact i think it could be worse as when you watch regular content all rgb pixels are being used instead of just a few color patterns being flashed. If you really want your plasma to be 100% burn in free you will have to monitor it 'if' you game alot, just wide and full screen content for the first 150hrs wont even make a kuro hiccup. But if it makes you feel better, all that counts, run it for hours on end :)The break-in procedure has nothing to do with IR or burn-in. It's primary goal is to evenly and equally age all pixels. You cannot get that with watching normal TV as the center of your screen will always age slightly faster than the outer edges (most of the action is focused in the center).

D-Nice... You haven't said anything new about the signature series. Last time you said something like "I will when I can" Has your contact allowed you to tell anymore information about the signature?. Have you asked your contact about SM access? Isn't your break-in time almost done?? Sorry for a lot of questions, but the forum has been slow without you (to an extent) for the last couple of days.

D-Nice... You haven't said anything new about the signature series. Last time you said something like "I will when I can" Has your contact allowed you to tell anymore information about the signature?. Have you asked your contact about SM access? Isn't your break-in time almost done?? Sorry for a lot of questions, but the forum has been slow without you (to an extent) for the last couple of days.I haven't heard from my contact in a few weeks, so I still cannot give furhter details on the Signature series. I'm still trying to get into the SM, however, I've heard the same rumor about the lack of RGB controls in the SM thru other channels. Break-in will be done on Tuesday.

The break-in procedure has nothing to do with IR or burn-in. It's primary goal is to evenly and equally age all pixels. You cannot get that with watching normal TV as the center of your screen will always age slightly faster than the outer edges (most of the action is focused in the center).

Forgive my newbness, but if the break-in has nothing to do with IR or burn-in, what is the point? Why is it important to age the pixels evenly?

Forgive my newbness, but if the break-in has nothing to do with IR or burn-in, what is the point? Why is it important to age the pixels evenly?Makes "shared" settings more plausible ;)

I haven't heard from my contact in a few weeks, so I still cannot give furhter details on the Signature series. I'm still trying to get into the SM, however, I've heard the same rumor about the lack of RGB controls in the SM thru other channels. Break-in will be done on Tuesday.Bummer:rolleyes:Keep tryin:o Does the lack of SM RGB controls apply to both the elites and the Non-Elites or just the non-elites. What happened to calibration... Are they pushing more Sig series or Optimum mode... :rolleyes:Bummer Of course I'll be out of town. Bummer:rolleyes:

P.S. Have you "cheated" on the break-in period at all.

Makes "shared" settings more plausible ;)I thought burn-in was uneven wear, so isn't breaking it in (wearing it evenly) helping to prevent burn-in during the most sensitive period.

I thought burn-in was uneven wear, so isn't breaking it in (wearing it evenly) helping to prevent burn-in during the most sensitive period.Burn-in is permanent un-even wear. You can't get permanent un-even wear during the first 150 hours on a Kuro....regardless if you use the break-in procedure or not.

Burn-in is permanent un-even wear. You can't get permanent un-even wear during the first 150 hours on a Kuro....regardless if you use the break-in procedure or not.Thanks for the clarification. I noticed you said on a kuro. Is that supposed to signify that other brands can get PERMANENT un-even wear in the first 150 hours.

New question. Are you gonna show us gamma curves, CIE charts, and Grayscale tracking charts after (or in) your review of the 6020.

Thanks for the clarification. I noticed you said on a kuro. Is that supposed to signify that other brands can get PERMANENT un-even wear in the first 150 hours.yep

New question. Are you gonna show us gamma curves, CIE charts, and Grayscale tracking charts after (or in) your review of the 6020.thats the plan :)

yep:(

thats the plan :)Great.

P.S. Wrong thread, but I don't feel like making another post on a different thread. Are you going to calibrate the 50PZ800U for the little tot.... And show us all the charts, idle luminance, and all the juicy details with us.

P.P.S. Where is everybody today??? It is a Sunday, but shouldn't that mean everybody should be at home doing nothing (basically what AVS is)

I don't know about that one.
Seems to me like they are trying to make the differences biggers between the models. It seems like they are making the XX20 models the "entry" kuro's. I am sure that more people will be buyng elite or the sig. series now that you can't do much adjusting.
In my case, if I would have known about the loss of features of the XX20 series before ordering, I would have went elite for sure.


I disagree. I think many folks will be at their budget limit with the non-elite and if the lack of controls is a big issue, they will turn to Pany, Sammy, LG etc.

thats the plan :)

Provided you have access to the SM, right? Or do you?



bob

:(

Great.

P.S. Wrong thread, but I don't feel like making another post on a different thread. Are you going to calibrate the 50PZ800U for the little tot.... And show us all the charts, idle luminance, and all the juicy details with us.

P.P.S. Where is everybody today??? It is a Sunday, but shouldn't that mean everybody should be at home doing nothing (basically what AVS is)

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm working in the office :D. Others might be enjoying Father's Day.

Another explanation is that everyone else hasn't yet noticed that D-nice is back after a day or so away, so they might be scurrying in soon. (Is he related to the Pied Piper or what?);)

KDD

I disagree. I think many folks will be at their budget limit with the non-elite and if the lack of controls is a big issue, they will turn to Pany, Sammy, LG etc.

could be.
But I think they will still be better off with a XX20 model than a Pany, Sammy, LG etc IMO. At least until next year that is. But then, Its 10G time!!

I disagree. I think many folks will be at their budget limit with the non-elite and if the lack of controls is a big issue, they will turn to Pany, Sammy, LG etc.

I agree. Some of the other sets out there are looking very nice a decent price points!


bob

Can someone give me thier settings for the Audio side of the 6020??
I have no sound setup yet and I am not too knowledgable on which mode/modes to use to get the best quality sound.
When using only the Speaker system that came with the 6020, what would be the best way to setup the sound??

Can someone give me thier settings for the Audio side of the 6020??
I have no sound setup yet and I am not too knowledgable on which mode/modes to use to get the best quality sound.
When using only the Speaker system that came with the 6020, what would be the best way to setup the sound??I don't know much about the speakers on it, but I heard that a bad batch of speakers went out. A couple of people noticed that the left (was it right) speaker in the bar (don't know what to call it... speaker half??) didn't work. They showed this by fading the sound from left to right.

Does it matter what type of video connection is used to get the best results from break-in (HDMI, component, or composite.) I will be using composite for break-in on my PS2 and then switch over to PS3 for normal viewing after that.

Does it matter what type of video connection is used to get the best results from break-in (HDMI, component, or composite.) I will be using composite for break-in on my PS2 and then switch over to PS3 for normal viewing after that.It shouldn't make a difference, but for my sets I use HDMI... Just because that's the most convenient

Chad

I believe what ever sounds good to you. There are not many adjustments with the speakers. They are fairly good sounding tv speakers (on mine) for what it's worth.

Chad are you still contemplating on returning your 6020 due to the buzz issues and lack of settings? Do you think your dealer will let you return? If possible, maybe you should try to exchange for a 50" Elite? You will appreciate the added picture adjustability, plus, it probably won't buzz as much due to less screen real estate. (all this, depending on the Elite 250 mile rule, of course)

could be.
But I think they will still be better off with a XX20 model than a Pany, Sammy, LG etc IMO. At least until next year that is. But then, Its 10G time!!

There's a big difference between "better off" and "within their budget". I, being in the fixed income bracket, am stretching things to the limit to reach the 6020. The Elites would just be financially irresponsible, for me.

Bill

Ken,

I thought the pics on page one looke more matte like? Wishful thinking!


bob

Bob, I'm pretty sure it looks highly reflective. The base I'm not as sure about, but it too looks pretty reflective. Owners?

This is why I am SO STUCK with deciding if I should go with the 6020, 6010 or 151Elite!!??? :confused:

There's a big difference between "better off" and "within their budget". I, being in the fixed income bracket, am stretching things to the limit to reach the 6020. The Elites would just be financially irresponsible, for me.

Bill

So I have been searching for a good wall mount and here is my choices:

For 5020 (Bedroom, corner mount)

Omnimount UCL-X
Premier Mount AM3

For 151 (Living Room) Clearance from wall in inches is in parenthesis

Omnimount U3 Tilt (2.46)
Sanus VMPL3 (2.89)
Premier Mounts VMPL3 (3.348)
Peerless SF670 (3.04)

The suggested clearance for proper ventilation on these 9G pio's is 3 15/16" none of which I've listed under the 151 choices are sufficient.

Do you guys have a suggestion? I am ok with the 5020 choices because they are articulating models and have over 4 inches of clearance. I would love to get both mounts listed under the 5020 choices (and see which one is better for my bedroom corner mount) but that is a lot of money for the gain of 1 inch but on the second hand I don't want to short change my kuro's of their breathing room :D

Bumpity bump bump for some love :) D-Nice perhaps or a seasoned vet who can reassure me that buying a mount with a 3" clearance should not affect the ventilation of the required 4" for the 9G Kuro's

5020 and the tunnel scene on LiveFree/DieHard is one the best look scenes i've scene on dvd/bluray

5020 and the tunnel scene on LiveFree/DieHard is one the best look scenes i've scene on dvd/blurayWhy not post some pictures :D

This is why I am SO STUCK with deciding if I should go with the 6020, 6010 or 151Elite!!??? :confused:

If money is not a factor, then by all means get the 151.
I have a strong feeling that the 151 will be gettings some amazing reviews.
I am amazed with the 6020, but I can't even imagine how amazed I would be if I had the ability to dial in the settings some more. Not to mention all of the other perks you get with the elite (longer warranty, Elite Color Filter for enhanced contrast in bright environments, illuminated remote, etc.).
I think this year chosing between and elite and a non-elite is alot easier of a desicion since the differences are a little greater this year.

Are you going to calibrate the 50PZ800U for the little tot.... And show us all the charts, idle luminance, and all the juicy details with us.I decided not to do this as:


My Elite 1150 is superior to the 50PZ800u in every way
The 6020 is superior to my Elite 1150 (black levels)
The Elite 111FD will be superior to all of the above
Robert's shootout will have the 50PZ800u


P.P.S. Where is everybody today??? It is a Sunday, but shouldn't that mean everybody should be at home doing nothing (basically what AVS is)
Father's Day man :)

Can someone give me thier settings for the Audio side of the 6020??
I have no sound setup yet and I am not too knowledgable on which mode/modes to use to get the best quality sound.
When using only the Speaker system that came with the 6020, what would be the best way to setup the sound??
To be honest, I thought the 6020's speakers sucked. Surround sound all the way man.

I'll see what I can muster out of the speaker after break-in.

Bob, I'm pretty sure it looks highly reflective. The base I'm not as sure about, but it too looks pretty reflective. Owners?The bezel is the same piano black as the previous models. The stand is flat black.

Why not post some pictures :D


will do, give me a few hours, gonna start our cook out for fathers day. Will post some later ;)

Bumpity bump bump for some love :) D-Nice perhaps or a seasoned vet who can reassure me that buying a mount with a 3" clearance should not affect the ventilation of the required 4" for the 9G Kuro's
Any wall mount the can fit the 5020 will be fine for ventilation. Top ventilation is far more important than side/bottom.

[QUOTE=D-Nice


The 6020 is superior to my Elite 1150 (black levels)


There's sooooooooo much more to PQ than black levels. I know you know that, but not seeing them side by side, or never seeing an 1150, I can't say for sure. If I had to pick blindly, I'd take the 1150 anyday!


bob

To be honest, I thought the 6020's speakers sucked. Surround sound all the way man.

I'll see what I can muster out of the speaker after break-in.

LOL,
I was amazed by the 6020's speakers when I first listened to them.
I put in "I am Legend" and in the beginning when Will smith is driving the Mustang around new york chasing a Deer I was blown away with how great it sounded. I could hear the "mustang motor rumble" that can not be mistaken for any other car very well.
But the thing is, I have never had a surround sound system in my home before. I have always just used the audio that came with the set. SO I am comparing the sound with the other Televisions I have had. I am sure if I had a good sound system, the 6020 speakers system would suck to me also.
Man, I gotta get a surround sound system!

There's sooooooooo much more to PQ than black levels. I know you know that, but not seeing them side by side, or never seeing an 1150, I can't say for sure. If I had to pick blindly, I'd take the 1150 anyday!


bobI'm well aware of that. However, from what I saw last week with my 1150 above the 6020, the 6020 just spanked my Elite except in over all color accuracy.

Are you kidding me Chad???

The sound comes BEFORE the picture in my opinion!

Having a surround system will absolutely blow your mind away.

That's why I am stuck with the surround and an old rear-projection tv...and it is killing me.

Are you kidding me Chad???

The sound comes BEFORE the picture in my opinion!

Having a surround system will absolutely blow your mind away.

That's why I am stuck with the surround and an old rear-projection tv...and it is killing me.

Are you serious? Then why even buy a Kuro? If picture is secondary just buy a Panasonic and save some money. To me the picture is the most important.
I use the stock speaker with my Pioneer.

D-Nice:

Do you think the majority of the Elite models will be pixel-perfect? The 151FD that I am returning today has two dead pixels in the center of the screen that are most noticeable as black dots on any blue background. Am I wrong to expect perfection?

So I have been searching for a good wall mount and here is my choices:

For 5020 (Bedroom, corner mount)

Omnimount UCL-X
Premier Mount AM3

For 151 (Living Room) Clearance from wall in inches is in parenthesis

Omnimount U3 Tilt (2.46)
Sanus VMPL3 (2.89)
Premier Mounts VMPL3 (3.348)
Peerless SF670 (3.04)

The suggested clearance for proper ventilation on these 9G pio's is 3 15/16" none of which I've listed under the 151 choices are sufficient.

Do you guys have a suggestion? I am ok with the 5020 choices because they are articulating models and have over 4 inches of clearance. I would love to get both mounts listed under the 5020 choices (and see which one is better for my bedroom corner mount) but that is a lot of money for the gain of 1 inch but on the second hand I don't want to short change my kuro's of their breathing room :D

Any wall mount the can fit the 5020 will be fine for ventilation. Top ventilation is far more important than side/bottom.

Thanks for the reply D-Nice I am fine with any side/bottom/top clearance the 4 inch clearance I am talking about is from the back of the plasma to the wall/mount. The peerlees ST670 only has a 3 inch clearance, this worries me! Since I cannot find a tilt mount with a 4 inch clearance I may need to install a 1 inch thick piece of plywood in between the mount and the wall to have the required 4 inches.

My question was...Do I really need to do this or is a 3 inch clearance sufficient?

Again, thank you for your time. This is for my Elite 151 (soon to be)

I'm well aware of that. However, from what I saw last week with my 1150 above the 6020, the 6020 just spanked my Elite except in over all color accuracy.

I know you know, of course! I guess the xx20's being "Neutered" isn't necessarily a big deal *UNLESS* you can't do a SM D65 calibration. But I know that you know that too :D



bob

Thanks for the reply D-Nice I am fine with any side/bottom/top clearance the 4 inch clearance I am talking about is from the back of the plasma to the wall/mount. The peerlees ST670 only has a 3 inch clearance, this worries me! Since I cannot find a tilt mount with a 4 inch clearance I may need to install a 1 inch thick piece of plywood in between the mount and the wall to have the required 4 inches.

My question was...Do I really need to do this or is a 3 inch clearance sufficient?

Again, thank you for your time. This is for my Elite 151 (soon to be)You do not need 3". You only need 1"

[QUOTE=chadmak09;14089438] Elite Color Filter for enhanced contrast in bright environments,

I did not know about this feature that the Elite has over the 6020??

It seems as the pot is getting thicker!!

I think I better stop with this forum
it is getting me to think nasty things as to return my 6020 for a Elite!!

Well...to be honest now I want both...but I can tell you that I would much rather watch my old rear projecton forever with my surround than go back to TV sound and get a new Plasma.

When you close your eyes and listen to the first scene in Kill Bill in surround...you hear every little piece of shattered glass hit the floor individually practicially!

Are you serious? Then why even buy a Kuro? If picture is secondary just buy a Panasonic and save some money. To me the picture is the most important.
I use the stock speaker with my Pioneer.

in terms of break in running with no issues the tv will still turn off automatically until you send a signal via remote (ir) or touch a button on the tv.

If there is a break-in DVD running "with no issues", then there should be no reason why that the TV will turn off. The colors do change every minute or so constantly throughout the burn in period.

I read the manual for the 151FD and there is such a feature, though it's not clear to me how it works.

Barn are you going to break-in in another place in your home before setting 151 in its final resting place?

Hi Hamsamish09,

Actually, I was thinking that would be a good idea. However in my case, I would not have a way to move the TV from one place to another. I simply don't have someone to help me with that.

The delivery people from the store will be doing many things to get me set up. For one, not only will they bring it in, they will take it out of the box, put on the legs, help move some furniture around then set it in it's final resting place.

I really don't have a lot of time to watch TV, so it really won't effect me that much. I do enjoy watching a HD movie now and then either from the DirecTV HD-DVR and in about a month from now Blu-ray. And oh yea, some NFL football now and then when I can find some free time!

Here
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14085357#post14085357

in the 9G Elite owner's thread, I've got some images posted that some may find interesting. These are before pictures and then some time late Tuesday (or Thursday depending on how much time I have) I will post the "after" pictures.

I do intend running the break-in disc non stop for the 150 hours. Though I might make that 151 hours. Why not? It's the 151FD and I'll be using it with the 51FD Blu-ray player!

That is the distance of the furthest chair from the TV - no, I cannot see the dead pixels from there. However, my main couch is about 8 feet from the set and I can see them from there (especially on a blue background). Plus, I sometimes move the couch a little closer for gaming, in which case it would really bother me. And to be honest, now that I know they exist, it would always bother me if I didn't replace the set.

I see your point, that if I can't see if from a normal viewing distance, why care? But in my eyes, that is beside the point. A TV of this magnitude should be perfect.

I borrowed a truck and just finished repacking all of the small stuff. Now which one of you wants to come help me lift this back into the box and into the truck? ;)

I'm glad to see your able to get it exchanged. One question though, are you able to see the dead pixels with regular video content at eight feet?

I'm glad to see your able to get it exchanged. One question though, are you able to see the dead pixels with regular video content at eight feet?

No, about 5-6, though.

Makes "shared" settings more plausible ;)


Not only that, I would think there would be less drift from such a unit that has had some "break-in" period.

Another words, if I had a ISF calibration when the set was BRAND new, I would think there would be more of a drift issue then say if I had the set calibrated after a few months us constant use.

Does that sound about right?


Also, do these panels and or electronics drift as much as my older rear projection CRT?

Originally Posted by D-Nice
To be honest, I thought the 6020's speakers sucked. Surround sound all the way man.

I'll see what I can muster out of the speaker after break-in.



Originally Posted by Chadmak
LOL,
I was amazed by the 6020's speakers when I first listened to them.
I put in "I am Legend" and in the beginning when Will smith is driving the Mustang around new york chasing a Deer I was blown away with how great it sounded. I could hear the "mustang motor rumble" that can not be mistaken for any other car very well.
But the thing is, I have never had a surround sound system in my home before. I have always just used the audio that came with the set. SO I am comparing the sound with the other Televisions I have had. I am sure if I had a good sound system, the 6020 speakers system would suck to me also.
Man, I gotta get a surround sound system!

I PM'd you about that, but you never replied...

KDD

Ok I need some help deciding.
I have two choices for a sound system to go with my 6020.
I can pay cash for a HTIB under 500$
Or I can use my Sony financial card and build up a HT on my own and not have to pay a dime for 2 years with no interest. Only bad thing is the entire system has to be sony.
I have it narrowed down to an Onkyo HTIB under 500 bucks (whichever model is the best for that price)
OR this Sony system:
STR-DG720 Receiver
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665361526

SS-CN5000 Center channel speaker x1
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665089826

SS-F6000 Floor-Standing Speakers x2 (front Left & Right)
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665089273

SS-B3000 Bookshelf speakers x2 (Rear Left & Right)
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665191300

SA-W2500 Powered Subwoofer x1
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665089844

I was just wondering if that's how it really works, even if the whole screen is stuck on one color due to a error from a DVD player playing the break-in DVD.

Given the question of being stuck on pause or any other image on the TV, I guess, then, that it is only a feature of DirecTV that gives me a screen saver after a few minutes of the image being on pause? I go to the kitchen to make a sandwich, for instance, and when I go back to my bedroom the DirecTV screen saver is dancing all over the screen protecting it from ir.

Also, I am not clear how the feature of having the TV turn off after 15 minutes of no signal works, because I used to have it on all the time, but a couple of times I was watching a recorded movie and the message that "the TV will turn off in 15 minutes" appeared, then it reappeared stating that it would turn off in 10 minutes and then it said it would turn off in 5 minutes, so I entered the user menu and turned the feature off. FWIW, my only assumption was that since the signal was not coming live from the antenna because it was a pre-recorded movie, the TV read it as "no signal." Well one thing I can tell you is that the feature works, but what I cannot explain is why it appeared when I was watching a movie. I would have understood if the TV was on with no input source at all, but the STB was on. :confused:

Gus, thanks a lot for responding to my questions regarding the differences between 150 and 151. I think I should have posted the question this way: BESIDES the blacker blacks (which obviously makes a huge difference according to D-Nice and others) what OTHER advantages the 151 has over the 150 that would make me want to upgrade?

Also, could you give me an example of what kind of "extra calibration" capacities do the Sigs have versus the 151? I am trying to figure what advantage(s) would I benefit from.

Thanks again for your response. I really appreciated it. If you do know the answers to the above, I would love to hear them.

Thanks again.

Ok I need some help deciding.

IMO, put the $500 aside and keep saving. Your speaker options really open up at $1k.

No, about 5-6, though.

That's what I wanted to know. The reason? I sit about 14' from the screen. That's why I really wanted a 70" screen or bigger. (I just could not wait any longer, and it's still a nice upgrade from what I currently have).

Back to the subject. I know there's a chance that there may be dead and or stuck pixels. There's also the issue with buzz.

At the distance of 14', I would hope if there was a issue with any of these, that I would not be able to

A: See it
and
B: Hear it

It would bother me knowing IF I had these issues, however if it's something I cannot see or hear within my "normal" viewing distance, then it "should" not be a problem.

Although, probably like you, things like that do bother me, though I may have to get over it. I guess it depends on how bad the situation is.

I decided not to do this as:


My Elite 1150 is superior to the 50PZ800u in every way
The 6020 is superior to my Elite 1150 (black levels)
The Elite 111FD will be superior to all of the above
Robert's shootout will have the 50PZ800u



Father's Day man :)-haha yeah... Being that I'm not a father (yet), it doesn't mean much to me. Forgot thoughAre you saying that you aren't even getting a PZ800U, just because you can use the 1150 or 6020 instead. But I thought you weren't buying the 6020. What does Robert's shootout have to do with anything. Thanks for making me more confused ;):confused:;):confused::p

[QUOTE=chadmak09;14089827]Ok I need some help deciding.
I have two choices for a sound system to go with my 6020.
/QUOTE]


Chad,

I'd recommend using your TV's speakers until you can save enough to get a fairly decent sound system. There's an area in AVS that is sound system specific for some good recommendations. Above all, you've just got to go audition some of them.

I wasted quite a bit of money going through numerous upgrades till I got what I thought was good enough to stop upgrading.

Best of luck with your display.

Given the question of being stuck on pause or any other image on the TV,

Well...this is how it's listed in the manual: I'm thinking if the break-in DVD somehow messes up (or more likely, the DVD player) I would hope with a feature like this, that the TV would automatically go into Standby


AV Source - No Signal
To save energy and extend the life of your flat panel TV, the panel can enter Standby automatically if the AV source
signal fails for 15 consecutive minutes. At five minutes before and at every minute after that, a warning message
appears on the screen. When the final minute elapses, the panel switches to Standby.
To have the panel switch to Standby when an AV source signal fails, follow the steps below.
1 ) Access the Power Control through the Setup.
2 ) Select No Signal off from the Power Control menu.
3 ) Select Enable to activate the AV Signal off power function.
4 ) Press HOME MENU to exit the menu.
Note: The flat panel TV may switch to Standby when there is noise (signal interference) at the end of a broadcast
schedule (channel goes off-air).
AV Source - Non-Operational
To save energy and extend the life of your flat panel TV, the panel can enter Standby automatically if there are no
commands from the AV source for three consecutive hours. At five minutes before and at every minute after that,
a warning message appears on the screen. When the final minute elapses, the panel switches to Standby.
To have the panel enter Standby automatically when there are no commands from the AV source, follow the steps
below.
1 ) Access the Power Control through the Setup.
2 ) Select No Operation off from the Power Control menu.
3 ) Select Enable from the No Operation off menu.
4 ) Press HOME MENU to exit the menu.

The bezel is the same piano black as the previous models. The stand is flat black.

What's the stand made off? Acrylic like the bezel or black plastic like the non-elites? Thanks D-Nice

Just wondering if anyone has ever tried the Logitech z5500 speakers on a TV. They sound really good on my computer and I just got a 2nd set. Was thinking about trying it on the Kuro.

What's the stand made off? Acrylic like the bezel or black plastic like the non-elites? Thanks D-NiceHe said somewhere that it is acrylic

That's what I wanted to know. The reason? I sit about 14' from the screen. That's why I really wanted a 70" screen or bigger. (I just could not wait any longer, and it's still a nice upgrade from what I currently have).

Back to the subject. I know there's a chance that there may be dead and or stuck pixels. There's also the issue with buzz.

At the distance of 14', I would hope if there was a issue with any of these, that I would not be able to

A: See it
and
B: Hear it

It would bother me knowing IF I had these issues, however if it's something I cannot see or hear within my "normal" viewing distance, then it "should" not be a problem.

Although, probably like you, things like that do bother me, though I may have to get over it. I guess it depends on how bad the situation is.

At 14 ft., there is not a chance that you will be able to see a dead pixel. If your set is one that buzzes louder than others, there is a minute chance that you could hear it at 14 feet with no audio. But judging by your surround system, I wouldn't be concerned.

I'm still trying to get into the SM, however, I've heard the same rumor about the lack of RGB controls in the SM thru other channels.

If this is true, then the 9th generation Non-Elites ARE the 1st generation of the dumbed-down Pioneers. Please say it ain't so Joe.

If this is true, then the 9th generation Non-Elites ARE the 1st generation of the dumbed-down Pioneers. Please say it ain't so Joe.

You're first presuming that you actually need to get into the service menu.

Not necessarily so.

Thebarnman, my 150 states things a little bit different. It talks about HDMI input working: let tv on or off? or HDMI input not in use: let tv stay on or turn off? This is one choice. The other is the no-signal one.

Thanks for explaining why I got the message that TV will turn off. I must have been 3+ hours movie without any input from the remote. This clears things up for me. I will turn those features back on to save energy and tv life. If I get the message again, I will just hit a key on the remote. Thx. :D

I agree. Some of the other sets out there are looking very nice a decent price points!


bob

what would be the one direct competitor (58"-60") to the 6020 at a lower price point?? 6020 is only 4 dimes. What is panny or samsungs best plasma?

He said somewhere that it is acrylic

Is that what flat black means? This is what he wrote:

"The bezel is the same piano black as the previous models. The stand is flat black."

I assumed the piano black was the acrylic.

Ok I need some help deciding.I wouldn't do either, but if you have to do something now instead of waiting until you've saved some money then check these two options. They may seem familiar to you because I suggested them the first time you asked this question. ;)

Yamaha YHT-380 (http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=553475&CTID=5000800)

Yamaha YHT-580 (http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=553474&CTID=5000800)

For the next two levels up you probably need about $1,000 for the first one, and up to $2.500 for the second level.

Deleted post: Not the Audio Forum. I will gladly help you if you post in the appropriate forum. :)

Good Luck with your speaker decisions..

what would be the one direct competitor (58"-60") to the 6020 at a lower price point?? 6020 is only 4 dimes. What is panny or samsungs best plasma?

How about a 6010? Those who got the 5010 at the Costco closeout prices got a great deal. There was some mention of 6010s coming there.

If one cannot get the color right on these 020's, then I'd get a 010 long before a Panny or Sammy.

010 (with SM adj) > 020 (w/o SM adj) & anything else

plasma buzz---so, today I went to the local best buy, still far away. I had a 3-year old in tow, which makes doing anything at the store a real adventure. The whole Best Buy place is buzzing, of course (most of all, their ballasts in their lamps), so it is not easy to tell what sound a set gives off. I put my head right on the screen of a Pioneer 150, and I hear...nothing. now I am confused. do some Pioneers plasma not have buzzing? or is this buzzing so little that I may not be able to hear it in certain kinds of picts (it was baseball).

for AV pros: if anyone had a Sony SXRD from about 3 years ago, is plasma buzzing almost nothing in comparison to the SXRD fan noise? See, I find the latter really annoying on my current set. It is easily audible from 15 feet away, even though all the reviews at the time claimed that one does not notice it when the movie is playing. When the TV shuts down, it takes another 30 seconds or so for the TV to turn it off, too.




Here would be my answer to LTCJack's question on alternatives in the 60" arena:

there is DLP in the 60" range, which costs about 1/3, but has drawbacks (on form-factor, it is thicker but weighs only a fraction of a plasma). still, at this low a price point, it may tie you over to next year's Plasma.

LED DLPs would seem attractive, but Samsung somehow managed to botch the phlatlight technology last year. they had very poor reviews on contrast ratio. no reviews for this year's Samsung LED DLP model yet.

SXRD has been discontinued.

if Mits ever releases its 65" laser [don't think they have one] for a street price around $2.5k, it would be competitive. [it is thin enough to be wall-mountable, though this would be less than ideal.] Mits is silent about content when it comes to selling. We only get occasional hype and demos every few months or so.

there are of course no competitive LCDs in the 60" range. there are a ton in the 52" segment.

I'd like to hear opinions whether the 2008 Samsung or 2008 Panasonics 60" Plasmas can deliver an almost-as-good pict for a grand less [also, Panasonic needs to be scaled for its two lost inches---this just begs for some bad jokes about how important another inch can be]. as for me, if it is only a few hundred, I would just stick with the best, and this is still the Kuro from everything I have read.

/iaw

I'm glad to see your able to get it exchanged. One question though, are you able to see the dead pixels with regular video content at eight feet?

No, about 5-6, though.

How often are you going to view a 60 inch display at "5-6" feet? I have a 42 inch LCD that has 3 dead pixels. I only remember they exist ... after reading these threads :eek:

If I were you, I would keep your current one. The 'Buzzing' issue seems to be a bigger problem for people who have already got theirs, and yours seems fine on that issue

... but if you do return it:

1) open the new one at the store and plug it in and check the pixels and 'Buzz' before leaving!!!

2) tell them that I will buy it at below Sponsor price ... as a defective 'Open Box' ;) (a couple dead pixels and no 'Buzz' at a "few hundred" below Sponsor price ... would move two units and they'd have two very happy customers!!! [no joking])

P.S. if Pioneer is reading this thread (which I bet they are), and you get his 151 back from Best Buy ... please PM me ... I would hate to see a non-'Buzzing' 151 go to waste :) As my Grandfather would say, "One man's trash, is another man's treasure"

If after a couple days I got some bad pixels I would return it as well. There's no point in dealing with it almost essentially from the get-go if you CAN exchange it.

Just my personal opinion.

So is anyone else interested in getting a 141? I had a 150 and was thinking of
going 151, but I figured "Why not get something different and go for the monitor
one?". Well, 141 it is. I'm thinking it'll be way cool to hang that one and the
reduction of electronics hopefully will reduce any chance of buzzing and artifacts.

Nambit, don't get it because you think it will reduce/eliminate the buzz. I seriously doubt the missing electronics has anything to do with the buzz.

I went by Harvey's (in Manhattan) today to see if they had any Elites in yet - and it was closed/shuttered. :eek: Somebody told me they had gone bankrupt. Dang. This is in my neighborhood. I used to love to stop by to visit the Elites.

WOW AND A HALF!!!! Harvey's went bankrupt!? :eek: I hadn't heard that. I used to visit their L.I. store to see some of the newer goodies. Too bad.

WOW AND A HALF!!!! Harvey's went bankrupt!? :eek: I hadn't heard that

I know it is off topic (just like Surround Sound Systems) ... but here is a blog on their BK:

http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2008/01/sad_day_for_rad.html

I was gone for 10 days, D-Nice was to put up a review of 6020, did he do it yet and if so, could someone link it in the OP or the 2nd post of this thread? Thanks!

Basic question here--I'm anxiously awaiting my 151. I assume there will eventually be some D-Nice reference settings for this display. Will that get you close to an ISF calibration result, or is there really no shortcut to such a service?

I was gone for 10 days, D-Nice was to put up a review of 6020, did he do it yet and if so, could someone link it in the OP or the 2nd post of this thread? Thanks!Not yet. He is stillllll doing break-in (ends tuesday)

If someone is not planning to calibrate ,

would there still be a major picture quality difference between the

9G - Elite & Non-Elite??

Why not post some pictures :D

Ok, here ya go!

LFDH "lights just went out"
LFDH "pay back time shot"

iRobot "my luck can not be that bad"

...and....


iRobot "we have one to many in here shot"
iRobot "oh, snap really!? shot" (11 feet away)
iRobot "oh, snap really!? shot" (6 feet away)

Not only that, I would think there would be less drift from such a unit that has had some "break-in" period.

Another words, if I had a ISF calibration when the set was BRAND new, I would think there would be more of a drift issue then say if I had the set calibrated after a few months us constant use.

Does that sound about right? Bingo :)


Also, do these panels and or electronics drift as much as my older rear projection CRT?No

last ones....

IROBOT "gotcha" shot 9 feet away
IROBOT "gotcha" shot 5 feet away
IROBOT "gotcha" shot 2 feet away

All on 5020 optimum setting (didn't really play around with different settings yet)

ok, thats all for now, now it's break in time!:D

...and....


iRobot "we have one to many in here shot"
iRobot "oh, snap really!? shot" (11 feet away)
iRobot "oh, snap really!? shot" (6 feet away)I see that I-Robot has higher black levels in the actual movie than what the 9G Kuros are capable of showing.....I see the black bars at the top and bottom of the frames ;)

Nambit, don't get it because you think it will reduce/eliminate the buzz. I seriously doubt the missing electronics has anything to do with the buzz.You are correct. Glass panel buzz is inherent to the Pioneer PDP design.

Nambit, don't get it because you think it will reduce/eliminate the buzz. I seriously doubt the missing electronics has anything to do with the buzz.
I'm getting it because:

1. I want that thinner panel. 64mm is pretty amazing.
2. I already owned a 150FD and figured I might as well get something different.
3. I want that "Signature" label on the front of my panel (jk ;))
4. I don't care for speakers or a tuner, but I admit I'll be looking into getting a stand.

Okay, I just got back from worstbuy. I returned the 151 and ordered a new one. They were not very happy and the store manager opened up the TV and plugged it in to test it. As soon as the blue samsung background of the DVD player they used hit the screen, the pixels stuck out like sore thumbs and my girlfriend pointed them out right away.

After a minute of deliberating, he came back to me and said that he will replace the TV, but at this point they feel like I'm starting to cost them more money than my business was worth. I've spent over 7,500 there in the last month. He said that although I've spent a lot of money, they have given me big discounts and that their margins were thin (even at 15% below msrp on the set, I find it hard to believe they aren't making a buck.) He also mentioned my exchanging of several items. I upgraded the TV I was buying twice, but only took (1) other set home that was defective. He then asked me what I would do if the next one had stuck pixels, and I said I'd probably return it again because I feel that a $6500 TV should be perfect. He then told me that if the next one has any defects, I could bring it back and he would just refund my money. I countered by saying that I shopped at BB because the 30 day return policy is great insurance for the consumer. I also explained that I had only returned (1) other TV that also had stuck pixels (and ultimately upgraded), and (1) harmony remote (also an just an exchange) because I thought the internal rattling was a broken piece inside (it turned out to be the motion sensor, something that none of the Magnolia teens could explain before I returned it.)

I realize that I am a difficult customer for them because I have very high standards. However, I am in no way trying to abuse the system, I just want to be fully covered and expect a perfect product if I'm paying a premium price.

Overall, I am not at all happy with how I have been treated. It's almost as if they are mad at me for exercising my rights within their policies because they've given me a small discount. If I can buy the next Elite Kuro down the line from a smaller, private dealer who will offer me the same level of coverage, I will.

Overall, I am not at all happy with how I have been treated. It's almost as if they are mad at me for exercising my rights within their policies because they've given me a small discount. If I can buy the next Elite Kuro down the line from a smaller, private dealer who will offer me the same level of coverage, I will.
I understand your frustration, but unlike many of us, you're doing better because:

1. You got them to exchange a defective set (I had streaks on my 150FD).
2. You got him to say he'll give you a refund if that exchange set is flawed.

Many folks are not so lucky! Be happy and good luck on your exchange.

D-Nice:

Do you think the majority of the Elite models will be pixel-perfect? The 151FD that I am returning today has two dead pixels in the center of the screen that are most noticeable as black dots on any blue background. Am I wrong to expect perfection?

Anybody have an opinion on this?

If someone is not planning to calibrate ,

would there still be a major picture quality difference between the

9G - Elite & Non-Elite??

Major? I dunno.
I guess time will tell.
But definitly more room to tweak your settings to your liking.
The settings are very limited on the 6020. If you place importance on that then by all means get the elite. I really don't plan on getting a pro calibration (but who knows). But I still think the elite is probably going to be a little more impressive with colors than the non-elite even without calibration. But like I said, time will tell.
The 6020 is very impressive though don't get me wrong. VERY impressive.
I see a noticable improvement in many areas over the 8G 5080 I had.
It seems the processing is a little better than the 8G's, last night I watched a DVD and I swear it could have passed for True HD. It was that impressive.

I understand your frustration, but unlike many of us, you're doing better because:

1. You got them to exchange a defective set (I had streaks on my 150FD).
2. You got him to say he'll give you a refund if that exchange set is flawed.

Many folks are not so lucky! Be happy and good luck on your exchange.

Thanks for the kind words and different perspective.

Okay, I just got back from worstbuy. I returned the 151 and ordered a new one. They were not very happy and the store manager opened up the TV and plugged it in to test it. As soon as the blue samsung background of the DVD player they used hit the screen, the pixels stuck out like sore thumbs and my girlfriend pointed them out right away.

After a minute of deliberating, he came back to me and said that he will replace the TV, but at this point they feel like I'm starting to cost them more money than my business was worth. I've spent over 7,500 there in the last month. He said that although I've spent a lot of money, they have given me big discounts and that their margins were thin (even at 15% below msrp on the set, I find it hard to believe they aren't making a buck.) He also mentioned my exchanging of several items. I upgraded the TV I was buying twice, but only took (1) other set home that was defective. He then asked me what I would do if the next one had stuck pixels, and I said I'd probably return it again because I feel that a $6500 TV should be perfect. He then told me that if the next one has any defects, I could bring it back and he would just refund my money. I countered by saying that I shopped at BB because the 30 day return policy is great insurance for the consumer. I also explained that I had only returned (1) other TV that also had stuck pixels (and ultimately upgraded), and (1) harmony remote (also an just an exchange) because I thought the internal rattling was a broken piece inside (it turned out to be the motion sensor, something that none of the Magnolia teens could explain before I returned it.)

I realize that I am a difficult customer for them because I have very high standards. However, I am in no way trying to abuse the system, I just want to be fully covered and expect a perfect product if I'm paying a premium price.

Overall, I am not at all happy with how I have been treated. It's almost as if they are mad at me for exercising my rights within their policies because they've given me a small discount. If I can buy the next Elite Kuro down the line from a smaller, private dealer who will offer me the same level of coverage, I will.

I have gone to many BBs in my area and have found that some of the salespeople get almost hostile like you are taking money out of their pocket if you try to negotiate the price or do returns. Too bad they setup the game rules. RIght now you have 30 days to return or exchange.
I really dont think they lose money on the open box items they put out on the floor since they are usually only reduced 10% from retail price.

And yes I agree with you that a 6500 dollar tv should be perfect in everyway.

Anybody have an opinion on this?

I already posted my opinion ...

Sorry to hear of your frustration, but I hope you mentioned to them my offer :)

Okay, I just got back from worstbuy. I returned the 151 and ordered a new one. They were not very happy and the store manager opened up the TV and plugged it in to test it. As soon as the blue samsung background of the DVD player they used hit the screen, the pixels stuck out like sore thumbs and my girlfriend pointed them out right away.

After a minute of deliberating, he came back to me and said that he will replace the TV, but at this point they feel like I'm starting to cost them more money than my business was worth. I've spent over 7,500 there in the last month. He said that although I've spent a lot of money, they have given me big discounts and that their margins were thin (even at 15% below msrp on the set, I find it hard to believe they aren't making a buck.) He also mentioned my exchanging of several items. I upgraded the TV I was buying twice, but only took (1) other set home that was defective. He then asked me what I would do if the next one had stuck pixels, and I said I'd probably return it again because I feel that a $6500 TV should be perfect. He then told me that if the next one has any defects, I could bring it back and he would just refund my money. I countered by saying that I shopped at BB because the 30 day return policy is great insurance for the consumer. I also explained that I had only returned (1) other TV that also had stuck pixels (and ultimately upgraded), and (1) harmony remote (also an just an exchange) because I thought the internal rattling was a broken piece inside (it turned out to be the motion sensor, something that none of the Magnolia teens could explain before I returned it.)

I realize that I am a difficult customer for them because I have very high standards. However, I am in no way trying to abuse the system, I just want to be fully covered and expect a perfect product if I'm paying a premium price.

Overall, I am not at all happy with how I have been treated. It's almost as if they are mad at me for exercising my rights within their policies because they've given me a small discount. If I can buy the next Elite Kuro down the line from a smaller, private dealer who will offer me the same level of coverage, I will.

I cannot believe he plugged up the TV to look at it.
And that he said he will exchange it like he was doing you some kind of favor or something.
You don't have to give him a reason at all if you don't want to. Thats your right.
He should have just given the exchage and kept his mouth shut about it.
The 30 day return policy is not up for debating nor does it need a specific approval from the store manager. It is policy. period.
I think his behavior was unprofessional.

Oh and by the way,
If the new TV has dead/stuck pixels, or is a buzzer and he denies you a replacement and gives you a refund.
Then you need to take the refund and walk out the front door, do a 180, walk right back in and purchase another one. He cannot stop you.

I think BB plugs in all returned TVs just to make sure they power up. I just returned a 4280 and they did the same thing.

plasma buzz---
/iaw

Obviously not at BB or any other B&M, but I chose 4 different pictures (in one screen) on my personal 150 at home. I chose a "mixed" colored picture; a mostly white picture (i.e., snow); a darker picture and another "mixed" color picture. I put my ear against the screen. On one of the "mixed" color squares I couldn't hear ANY buzz (but it could just be my "own" hearing ability although I've never known to have a hearing problem). Then I moved to a bright square of the screen and I could hear a slight buzzing, just what I hear when I go camping and have the lights to keep mosquitos away (not loud, but clearly heard with my ear against the screen). Moved my head to the picture with mostly blacks and I heard NOTHING. Then I moved to the other "mixed" color square on the screen and I couldn't hear anything detectable really. The only real buzzing, but VERY low, was on the square (picture) that had the whiter whites (snow). Watching movies or regular programing I hear nothing with my ear "almost" touching the screen, because I don't want to touch the screen at all, so I keep the shortest distance I can without touching it. ?? Don't know about other sets, but the fact that mine is "not heard" in general, but barely detectable in the whites, make me wonder. I am using D-Nice's settings because THEY are the best. Thanks AGAIN D-Nice.

Hey, D-Nice, Chad or any 9g owner, I have a question: When you send the display 1080p/24, what does the panel say when you hit the display button on the remote? Does it say it's receiving a 1080p/24 signal?

I think BB plugs in all returned TVs just to make sure they power up. I just returned a 4280 and they did the same thing.

They didn't when I returned my 5080, they just verified that everything was there (remote,manual,etc) and gave me my money back. But then again, my reason for return was not from a malfunction, I just said I was unhappy with it.
My point is, What good does plugging it in do anyway? Even if it does not power up they still have to give you the money back/exchange.

Hey, D-Nice, Chad or any 9g owner, I have a question: When you send the display 1080p/24, what does the panel say when you hit the display button on the remote? Does it say it's receiving a 1080p/24 signal?

It just says 1080p.
Just like the 8G's.
I was hoping that would have changed also.

Damn!
The 8Gs displayed the frame rate if you went into the PC mode, does it display in PC mode on yours?

How about a 6010? Those who got the 5010 at the Costco closeout prices got a great deal. There was some mention of 6010s coming there.

If one cannot get the color right on these 020's, then I'd get a 010 long before a Panny or Sammy.

010 (with SM adj) > 020 (w/o SM adj) & anything else


I just ordered a 6020

I am just a plug in and watch sort of guy. don't really understand all the adjustments. Plus, I am red-green color blind. Not sure i could see the benefit of microadjusting every friggin color input. Just want a good set. Surely the 6020 should be a good set???

Here's a list of forum sponsors that sell Pioneer plasmas (not sure if I got them all):

Axxis Audio
Clarity/BuyBestPlasma
Cleveland Plasma
Invision Displays
Plasma Concepts
Value Electronics

This should be a part of the first post.

WOW AND A HALF!!!! Harvey's went bankrupt!? :eek: I hadn't heard that. I used to visit their L.I. store to see some of the newer goodies. Too bad.

I don't think they've gone bankrupt, but their 45th Street and Paramus stores closed. Evidently, there was a great sale - which I sadly missed. I stopped by the one inside ABC Home today. They say they're the only Harvey's left. But man, their 1150 sure looked beautiful!

Contact the forum sponsors guys.

Here's a list of forum sponsors that sell Pioneer plasmas (not sure if I got them all):

Axxis Audio
Clarity/BuyBestPlasma
Cleveland Plasma
Invision Displays
Plasma Concepts
Value Electronics

any deliver to Toronto?

You know your priorities are off when you're sitting at the Tony awards (which I was lucky enough to get to go to tonight - they were amazing!) and thinking man, I'm glad I'm recording this. This is going to look sick on my 151!

Note to self: Kuro will look almost like real life. Real life looks exactly like real life. :o

Damn!
The 8Gs displayed the frame rate if you went into the PC mode, does it display in PC mode on yours?

When I put it in PC mode it shows 1920X1080 on the top left of the screen and 24Hz on the top right corner of the screen.

Also, just to see how the photo viewing does on the 6020, I plugged my digital camera up to the USB and it immediatly recognized it as a kodak camera and loaded the photos just fiine and allowed me to view them no problem :)

Also,
I noticed that there is an ethernet connector on the back of the TV. What purposes can I use this for??
If I plugg my cable internet up to it what happens??

You know your priorities are off when you're sitting at the Tony awards (which I was lucky enough to get to go to tonight - they were amazing!) and thinking man, I'm glad I'm recording this. This is going to look sick on my 151!

Note to self: Kuro will look almost like real life. Real life looks exactly like real life. :o

Vasti,
Have you ordered your 151 yet??
I thought you were going with the Sig series??

When I put it in PC mode it shows 1920X1080 on the top left of the screen and 24Hz on the top right corner of the screen.

Also, just to see how the photo viewing does on the 6020, I plugged my digital camera up to the USB and it immediatly recognized it as a kodak camera and loaded the photos just fiine and allowed me to view them no problem :)

Also,
I noticed that there is an ethernet connector on the back of the TV. What purposes can I use this for??
If I plugg my cable internet up to it what happens??

Thanks chad. :)

Vasti,
Have you ordered your 151 yet??
I thought you were going with the Sig series??

I did order my 151, though I have the possibility to upgrade if I decide to before the 151 arrives.

I cannot believe he plugged up the TV to look at it.
And that he said he will exchange it like he was doing you some kind of favor or something.
You don't have to give him a reason at all if you don't want to. Thats your right.
He should have just given the exchage and kept his mouth shut about it.
The 30 day return policy is not up for debating nor does it need a specific approval from the store manager. It is policy. period.
I think his behavior was unprofessional.

Oh and by the way,
If the new TV has dead/stuck pixels, or is a buzzer and he denies you a replacement and gives you a refund.
Then you need to take the refund and walk out the front door, do a 180, walk right back in and purchase another one. He cannot stop you.

Thanks for the reply, chad, and I agree completely. He knew he didn't have any ground to stand on. They just don't like me because I always try to get the best deal possible.

The thing they are forgetting is that you are still giving them business. Though you're still looking for the deal, you are still going to THEM for the deal. They somehow need to be reminded of that.

Anybody have an opinion on this?

For this kind of money it had better have NO dead/stuck pixels when you first plug it in... And nothing against Meangolia;) but I hate going in there for any reason. They lie, complain and treat you like a cop would - they always assume you're guilty of something.

And I apologize to all Pioneer fans here, but it seems to me that Pio is becoming Onkyo... Denying everything; the buzz, the pixels, the warranty bs are all starting to add up... I understand they have a great product (which I'm gonna buy) but c'mon...

Vashti remember me?? We met in the city a few months ago?
In any case I don't think it would be an upgrade, since you will lose the tuner and speakers. But it will be a true "purist" TV! Just a perfect picture and a super slim bezel to accompany it! Can't go wrong, I'm holding out for it, patience is a virtue!
:)

And I apologize to all Pioneer fans here, but it seems to me that Pio is becoming Onkyo... Denying everything; the buzz, the pixels, the warranty bs are all starting to add up... I understand they have a great product (which I'm gonna buy) but c'mon...

You forgot streaks. At least SHARP admitted to the bands when they took
back my D92 (top of the line). Pioneer denied everything about the buzz and
the streaks on my ELITE (top of the line). I was quite unimpressed. I'm actually
surprised I'm throwing more money their way in the form of a 141. I must be a
sadist or something... keep coming back for more.

Contact the forum sponsors guys.

Here's a list of forum sponsors that sell Pioneer plasmas (not sure if I got them all):

Axxis Audio
Clarity/BuyBestPlasma
Cleveland Plasma
Invision Displays
Plasma Concepts
Value Electronics

+ MountAVision

Today I turned the Air conditioner off, un-plugged the fridge (which is about 10 feet from my living rrom) , and my cable box.
I wanted the living room to be completely quiet.
I then turned the 6020 on in powersave "off" mode.
The buzz was pretty loud, I could hear it halfway up the staircase that is about 18 feet fro my living room. Which needles to say, is pretty far away.

But the main reason turned all apliances off to get it totally quiet was to see if I could hear the buzz (and how far away) with the energysave option set to "powersavemode2".
So I changed the mode to powersavee mode2 and the buzz disappeared. And it disappeared pretty much completely. I could not hear it in the front of the panel anymore. but if I stuck my head about 6 inches from the backpanel I could hear a light buzz if I listened hard enough.
So in my case, Powersave mode2 got rid of the buzz pretty much totally.
I am still going to set the powersave to "off" when watching movies. I don't want to lose any brightness.

SO for those of you who have a buzzer, Try setting it to Powersave mode 2. See if it is ok to you.

Today I turned the Air conditioner off, un-plugged the fridge (which is about 10 feet from my living rrom) , and my cable box.
I wanted the living room to be completely quiet.
I then turned the 6020 on in powersave "off" mode.
The buzz was pretty loud, I could hear it halfway up the staircase that is about 18 feet fro my living room. Which needles to say, is pretty far away.

But the main reason turned all apliances off to get it totally quiet was to see if I could hear the buzz (and how far away) with the energysave option set to "powersavemode2".
So I changed the mode to powersavee mode2 and the buzz disappeared. And it disappeared pretty much completely. I could not hear it in the front of the panel anymore. Nut if I stuck my head about 6 inches from the backpanel I could hear a light buzz if I listened hard enough.
So in my case, Powersave mode2 got rid of the buzz pretty much totally.
I am still going to set the powersave to "off" when watching movies. I don't want to lose any brightness.

SO for those of you who have a buzzer, Try setting it to Powersave mode 2. See if it is ok to you.

Finding a fix that you won't use doesn't sound very comforting. Wouldn't this be a good piece of information for Pioneer to have to help come up with a solution?

Finding a fix that you won't use doesn't sound very comforting. Wouldn't this be a good piece of information for Pioneer to have to help come up with a solution?

yea.
But the difference in brightness is extremly small. I am very picky so I keep the powersave off.
But to some people out there, I bet they will not be able to tell a difference with powersave mode set to "2". So this could be a life saver for them. That is unless there is something specifically different about my television buzzing and this fix doesn't work for everyone.

Althouhg I wish the Buzz didn't exist, at least now I know I have the option to make it go away, Which makes me feel a little better :D

I realize that I am a difficult customer for them because I have very high standards. However, I am in no way trying to abuse the system, I just want to be fully covered and expect a perfect product if I'm paying a premium price.

Overall, I am not at all happy with how I have been treated. It's almost as if they are mad at me for exercising my rights within their policies because they've given me a small discount. If I can buy the next Elite Kuro down the line from a smaller, private dealer who will offer me the same level of coverage, I will.

Had to chime in. Awhile back I wanted to return my 150FD to Ultimate Electronics. I did not keep the box, (my fault) and they played hard ball with me. Which is fine, if I was a Joe Schmoe off the street. However, I spent a lot of money and thought I had built a relationship with them over the years. Not once did they even attempt to go to bat for me. It was a bitter experience, and I will never shop there again. Which is why I purchased my upcoming 151FD from a forum sponsor. Which after reading here, I expect a very positive experience...

My point is, customer service is not relevant to these big box stores. You had every right to return your defective $6500 tv. If you have to return it again, take his money and go somewhere else who will appreciate your hard earned dollar.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now...

i have a 3 year old panasonic dlp and it is also pretty loud when nothing else is on. i think its a fan or something. would u say the buzz is comparable to a dlp fan?

You know your priorities are off when you're sitting at the Tony awards (which I was lucky enough to get to go to tonight - they were amazing!) and thinking man, I'm glad I'm recording this. This is going to look sick on my 151!

Note to self: Kuro will look almost like real life. Real life looks exactly like real life. :o

Good thing you were there in person. Unfortunately the broadcast wasn't in high-def! I wonder why?

So in my case, Powersave mode2 got rid of the buzz pretty much totally.
I am still going to set the powersave to "off" when watching movies. I don't want to lose any brightness.


Could you compensate by increasing the brightness control? If so does that just put the buzzing back where it was?

When I put it in PC mode it shows 1920X1080 on the top left of the screen and 24Hz on the top right corner of the screen.

Also, just to see how the photo viewing does on the 6020, I plugged my digital camera up to the USB and it immediatly recognized it as a kodak camera and loaded the photos just fiine and allowed me to view them no problem :)

Also,
I noticed that there is an ethernet connector on the back of the TV. What purposes can I use this for??
If I plugg my cable internet up to it what happens??Since nobody answered you, I will. It is for firmware updates (and home media gallery). You could probably use HMG if you connected an ethernet cable in.

Ok I need some help deciding.
I have two choices for a sound system to go with my 6020.
I can pay cash for a HTIB under 500$
Or I can use my Sony financial card and build up a HT on my own and not have to pay a dime for 2 years with no interest. Only bad thing is the entire system has to be sony.
I have it narrowed down to an Onkyo HTIB under 500 bucks (whichever model is the best for that price)
OR this Sony system:
STR-DG720 Receiver
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665361526

SS-CN5000 Center channel speaker x1
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665089826

SS-F6000 Floor-Standing Speakers x2 (front Left & Right)
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665089273

SS-B3000 Bookshelf speakers x2 (Rear Left & Right)
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665191300

SA-W2500 Powered Subwoofer x1
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665089844


Don't buy a Pioneer TV and they get a low end Sony receiver LOL. The two just don't go together. Harman Kardon has good inexpensive receivers or even Pioneer's low end Elite isn't very pricey. If you don't have the cash to buy something now I'd suggest to wait. Electronics are bad investments but you sound system is easier to stay contented with more than a TV. I've upgraded my TV every year over the last 4+ years but I've been content with my HK AVR630 for 4 years and really am only looking to upgrade because I don't have HD audio. Speakers and sub amps are something that could last you a long time if you purchase some that appeal to your taste. That's my opinion anyways. Good luck!

I cannot believe he plugged up the TV to look at it.
And that he said he will exchange it like he was doing you some kind of favor or something.
You don't have to give him a reason at all if you don't want to. Thats your right.
He should have just given the exchage and kept his mouth shut about it.
The 30 day return policy is not up for debating nor does it need a specific approval from the store manager. It is policy. period.
I think his behavior was unprofessional.

Oh and by the way,
If the new TV has dead/stuck pixels, or is a buzzer and he denies you a replacement and gives you a refund.
Then you need to take the refund and walk out the front door, do a 180, walk right back in and purchase another one. He cannot stop you.

+1!!!!!

Okay, I just got back from worstbuy. I returned the 151 and ordered a new one. They were not very happy and the store manager opened up the TV and plugged it in to test it. As soon as the blue samsung background of the DVD player they used hit the screen, the pixels stuck out like sore thumbs and my girlfriend pointed them out right away.

After a minute of deliberating, he came back to me and said that he will replace the TV, but at this point they feel like I'm starting to cost them more money than my business was worth. I've spent over 7,500 there in the last month. He said that although I've spent a lot of money, they have given me big discounts and that their margins were thin (even at 15% below msrp on the set, I find it hard to believe they aren't making a buck.) He also mentioned my exchanging of several items. I upgraded the TV I was buying twice, but only took (1) other set home that was defective. He then asked me what I would do if the next one had stuck pixels, and I said I'd probably return it again because I feel that a $6500 TV should be perfect. He then told me that if the next one has any defects, I could bring it back and he would just refund my money. I countered by saying that I shopped at BB because the 30 day return policy is great insurance for the consumer. I also explained that I had only returned (1) other TV that also had stuck pixels (and ultimately upgraded), and (1) harmony remote (also an just an exchange) because I thought the internal rattling was a broken piece inside (it turned out to be the motion sensor, something that none of the Magnolia teens could explain before I returned it.)

I realize that I am a difficult customer for them because I have very high standards. However, I am in no way trying to abuse the system, I just want to be fully covered and expect a perfect product if I'm paying a premium price.

Overall, I am not at all happy with how I have been treated. It's almost as if they are mad at me for exercising my rights within their policies because they've given me a small discount. If I can buy the next Elite Kuro down the line from a smaller, private dealer who will offer me the same level of coverage, I will.

Although the manager could have been more diplomatic, what he’s telling you is accurate.

Margins are very low on flat screens. Once someone returns an item, it can no longer be sold as new. It either has to go back to the factory to be recertified and repacked; and then sold as refurbished, or it’s offered as on open box item at cost or below. Either way it’s a loss. When a customer returns the same item multiple times, it’s a bigger loss.

Right now, I’ll estimate your business represents a net loss for Best Buy. Offering you a full refund is perfectly reasonable.

A_C

After a minute of deliberating, he came back to me and said that he will replace the TV, but at this point they feel like I'm starting to cost them more money than my business was worth. I've spent over 7,500 there in the last month. He said that although I've spent a lot of money, they have given me big discounts and that their margins were thin (even at 15% below msrp on the set, I find it hard to believe they aren't making a buck.)

I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that at 15% off their profit margin is slim. HH Gregg used to have their cost hidden on their price tags and big ticket TVs typically had close to a 30% margin. And a big chain like BB has a higher profit margin than that. And if some of these forum sponsors can offer the discounts they do and make a profit then I seriously doubt BB is hurting from this. And I'm sure they pay less for the TVs than the forum sponsors do also.

Although the manager could have been more diplomatic, what he’s telling you is accurate.

Margins are very low on flat screens. Once someone returns an item, it can no longer be sold as new. It either has to go back to the factory to be recertified and repacked; and then sold as refurbished, or it’s offered as on open box item at cost or below. Either way it’s a loss. When a customer returns the same item multiple times, it’s a bigger loss.

Right now, I’ll estimate your business represents a net loss for Best Buy. Offering you a full refund is perfectly reasonable.

A_C

Best Buy sells TVs as open box items and typically at 10-15% off so I'm not sure how this applies. Sure, if too many people do this I can see this as a problem.

Oh and by the way,
If the new TV has dead/stuck pixels, or is a buzzer and he denies you a replacement and gives you a refund.
Then you need to take the refund and walk out the front door, do a 180, walk right back in and purchase another one. He cannot stop you.


Manager: "Oh, I'm sorry sir, we no longer have any of those in stock. I just checked (Our inventory program has a glitch) What's that? No, even when we get them in, I won't be offering you the same discount as before. You're not exactly our best customer right now, you know..."

A_C

Chad,

If you are trying to save a buck, take a look at Ebay or Audigon.com for some good deal on audio equipment. I am sure you can find a great receiver at even half price. Rotel makes some very price conservative items with lots of power and features. Arcam is another great brand with lots of value. Don't go cheap on speakers either. The best front end equipment won't be utilized through crap speakers. Also as another poster said, upgrading TV's every couple of years is common, but keeping good audio equipment, especially separates, for years is easy to do. Good amps and good speakers will almost last a lifetime. Fully integrated components will need to be completely replaced when audio codecs and HDMI types are updated whereas with separates, you can just swap out the preamp/processor.

Good luck finding some good deals.

Best Buy sells TVs as open box items and typically at 10-15% off so I'm not sure how this applies. Sure, if too many people do this I can see this as a problem.

10% - 15% is about what their margins are. You can't stay in business selling things at cost.

A_C

As far as the buzz goes, I never really noticed the buzz until I read it on this forum a hundred times. And honestly I only really notice it when my TV is turned on and I'm surfing from my laptop. It's not noticable at all once you listen to it. If someone has wood floors I can see the sound being louder but I'd be in a lot of cases people are analyzing this situation too much.

I watched CRT tubes all my life but when I met my wife we went to BB and she noticed the high pitched whine from CRTs. After I heard it I could hear it the second I walked near the TV section at BB and it drove me nuts. A month or so after it wasn't on my mind I never noticed it and don't even think about it now.

10% - 15% is about what their margins are. You can't stay in business selling things at cost.

A_C

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. HH Gregg has 20% off sales on flat panel TVs regularly and BB gets flat panels at a better price as they are much bigger than HH Gregg. HH Gregg also pays the sales associate commission. If that were the case they'd be losing big time just selling a new TV. Also, the profit margin on a 60" screen is larger than a 42" screen BTW.

Based on my most recent negotiations, the margins at BB are at least 21% on flat panels. I also saw the cost into the store when at another store in Chicago and 21% was also their percent under MSRP. I calculate my 21% by taking (MSRP-Cost)/MSRP.

While 10-15% markdown for sales or open box items sounds big, they are still making money. Also, when you negotiate a good deal at BB, if you walk out the store with that item, then they are making money.

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. HH Gregg has 20% off sales on flat panel TVs regularly and BB gets flat panels at a better price as they are much bigger than HH Gregg. HH Gregg also pays the sales associate commission. If that were the case they'd be losing big time just selling a new TV. Also, the profit margin on a 60" screen is larger than a 42" screen BTW.

Just because a merchant discounts something at 20% doesn't automatically mean their margins are at least 20%. All it means is that the merchandise is not moving at the ticketed price and they need to make the price more attractive. The price may have gone down since it was procured... They may need the space in the warehouse for new merchandise... (a big factor in discounts), etc. Merchants offer goods below cost all the time, or dollar cost average their costs across the board.

That being said, without any accurate citations, it's kind of pointless to debate this issue any further.

That being said; as someone who was in retail consumer electronics years ago, I found this to be the biggest area of consumer misconception. People routinely assume the merchant is making far more than they actually are.

For example, If you pull the average consumer off the street, point to a $100 item in a store window and ask; "How much do you think this cost the merchant to buy?" They will invariably say; "$50". Which is never the case.

Whether the margin is 10%, 15% or 30%, returns amount to losses (in both time and money), so people should be mindful not to abuse the system.

A_C

who is the most trusted and most reputable forum sponser to buy for.. im lookign to buy a pioneer 5020 and im looking for it to arrive as quickly as possible can some of u pm me or mention a reputable forum sponer dealer..

Based on my most recent negotiations, the margins at BB are at least 21% on flat panels. I also saw the cost into the store when at another store in Chicago and 21% was also their percent under MSRP. I calculate my 21% by taking (MSRP-Cost)/MSRP.

While 10-15% markdown for sales or open box items sounds big, they are still making money. Also, when you negotiate a good deal at BB, if you walk out the store with that item, then they are making money.

I can asure you it is much higher than 21% at BB for flat panals, even after the other factors are added in. Elites are the highest.

...Whether the margin is 10%, 15% or 30%, returns amount to losses (in both time and money), so people should be mindful not to abuse the system.

A_C

I agree with this statement. The number of times someone returns something shouldn't be an issue though IF there is a real problem with the item.

who is the most trusted and most reputable forum sponser to buy for.. im lookign to buy a pioneer 5020 and im looking for it to arrive as quickly as possible can some of u pm me or mention a reputable forum sponer dealer..Robert @ Value Electronics

10% - 15% is about what their margins are. You can't stay in business selling things at cost.

A_C

Thank you forum sponsors! Although you are apparently taking a loss on every Kuro order, at least you are making it up in volume.:D

robert can you pm me im interested in buying some things from you...

You forgot streaks. At least SHARP admitted to the bands when they took
back my D92 (top of the line). Pioneer denied everything about the buzz and
the streaks on my ELITE (top of the line). I was quite unimpressed. I'm actually
surprised I'm throwing more money their way in the form of a 141. I must be a
sadist or something... keep coming back for more.

Nambit,

What was your issue with streaks?

Were they vertical? horizontal?

I remember you having a problem with buzzing but cannot recall streaks.

Just an FYI, spoke to one of my contacts and the 111FDs will be available this week.

robert can you pm me im interested in buying some things from you...

I don't believe sponsors are supposed to initiate PMs for sales purposes. You may PM Robert yourself, though. His screen name is DTV TiVo Dealer (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=60810). OR better yet, just pick up the phone and call their 800 number listed at *********************. You can do this same thing with any of the sponsors.

Okay, I just got back from worstbuy. I returned the 151 and ordered a new one. They were not very happy and the store manager opened up the TV and plugged it in to test it. As soon as the blue samsung background of the DVD player they used hit the screen, the pixels stuck out like sore thumbs and my girlfriend pointed them out right away.

After a minute of deliberating, he came back to me and said that he will replace the TV, but at this point they feel like I'm starting to cost them more money than my business was worth. I've spent over 7,500 there in the last month. He said that although I've spent a lot of money, they have given me big discounts and that their margins were thin (even at 15% below msrp on the set, I find it hard to believe they aren't making a buck.) He also mentioned my exchanging of several items. I upgraded the TV I was buying twice, but only took (1) other set home that was defective. He then asked me what I would do if the next one had stuck pixels, and I said I'd probably return it again because I feel that a $6500 TV should be perfect. He then told me that if the next one has any defects, I could bring it back and he would just refund my money. I countered by saying that I shopped at BB because the 30 day return policy is great insurance for the consumer. I also explained that I had only returned (1) other TV that also had stuck pixels (and ultimately upgraded), and (1) harmony remote (also an just an exchange) because I thought the internal rattling was a broken piece inside (it turned out to be the motion sensor, something that none of the Magnolia teens could explain before I returned it.)

I realize that I am a difficult customer for them because I have very high standards. However, I am in no way trying to abuse the system, I just want to be fully covered and expect a perfect product if I'm paying a premium price.

Overall, I am not at all happy with how I have been treated. It's almost as if they are mad at me for exercising my rights within their policies because they've given me a small discount. If I can buy the next Elite Kuro down the line from a smaller, private dealer who will offer me the same level of coverage, I will.

I assume (hope) you did not purchase the extended plan. Because I did --and if I get anything less than perfect and I so much as get a frown from them, I am going to raise holy hell!!:mad:;)

Based on my most recent negotiations, the margins at BB are at least 21% on flat panels. I also saw the cost into the store when at another store in Chicago and 21% was also their percent under MSRP. I calculate my 21% by taking (MSRP-Cost)/MSRP.

While 10-15% markdown for sales or open box items sounds big, they are still making money. Also, when you negotiate a good deal at BB, if you walk out the store with that item, then they are making money.

You would be surprised how how there markup% is sometimes. I have seen it as high as 60% on certain TV's.

Just an FYI, spoke to one of my contacts and the 111FDs will be available this week.

These have been available through Best Buy since last week.

Nambit,

What was your issue with streaks?

Were they vertical? horizontal?

I remember you having a problem with buzzing but cannot recall streaks.

Horizontal streaks. They were especially noticeable on bright scenes. When i
first pointed them out to a tech who was onsite for the buzzing, he said he's
never seen anything like it, but later recorded it on my record as burn-in (on
a 2-day old set!!). D-Nice mentioned it was due to a defective panel, but it
appears Pioneer refused to acknowledge this (for me) and ignored any further
inquiry I made on it. Nice support on an $8K panel, I'd say. :mad:

Just to clarify, when I say available, I meant in-hand/delivered seeable by people, not on an inventory computer. I haven't seen an 111FD owner post yet, so I'm guessing they haven't been received yet.

Anyways, the sooner people get these, the more info we can get so happy buying to you all!

These have been available through Best Buy since last week.

I can asure you it is much higher than 21% at BB for flat panals, even after the other factors are added in. Elites are the highest.

I have no idea what their margin is but some off you seem to think that you are not losing any money as long as you are selling something 'at cost'.

Makes you wonder what they are supposed to pay rent, salaries, advertising etc with.

Anything you sell 'at cost' is usually costing you more than a regular sale to begin with. Normally the salesperson have spent longer than usual with the customer, you have to spend time checking out the returned item and fixing paperwork.

When stores have an advertised 20% (or whatever) sale on specific items it is often a manufacturer who are giving the rebate. Not the store.

That being said; as someone who was in retail consumer electronics years ago, I found this to be the biggest area of consumer misconception. People routinely assume the merchant is making far more than they actually are.

For example, If you pull the average consumer off the street, point to a $100 item in a store window and ask; "How much do you think this cost the merchant to buy?" They will invariably say; "$50". Which is never the case.

A_C


That's irrelevant here. I don't care if he makes $1, $100 or $1000. He took my money and sold me a defective set. That's the issue. Don't whine and cry about it. Bottom line: Make it right.

Just to clarify, when I say available, I meant in-hand/delivered seeable by people, not on an inventory computer. I haven't seen an 111FD owner post yet, so I'm guessing they haven't been received yet.

Anyways, the sooner people get these, the more info we can get so happy buying to you all!

They arrived the same time as the 151s and the two that have been reported being purchased on here came from BB.

What the hell? LOL I can't believe Pioneer hasn't resolved this buzzing issue that has been going on for years. I posted about it years ago here http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=479225&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

I was looking for a new plasma and decided to start my research here at the forums. I love the picture quality of the Pioneers but there is no way I will tolerate the buzz.

I was really looking forward to a new 60 incher but I guess I'll have to wait :(

I assume (hope) you did not purchase the extended plan. Because I did --and if I get anything less than perfect and I so much as get a frown from them, I am going to raise holy hell!!:mad:;)

They offered me the extended plan for the low cost of $900 and something. I declined because I thought that was too much and because the Elites already come with a 2 year warranty. I read that most electronic devices fail/have problems either very early on, or after they are much older. I also read (form glasshub's post) that the average pioneer plasma repair is $1000, so I figured I'd take my chances.

That said, I would raise hell, too, if they gave you even the slightest bit of resistance. Also, I inquired about the warranty and the salesperson told me that they will send a tech out to try and fix it first. But after 3 service calls (with a bb warranty), they have to replace your set.
So if they try to string you along, just keep calling them back and they will eventually have to replace your TV by their own policy.

Dang, who was the first 111FD owner? I missed that post! Can't keep up!

They arrived the same time as the 151s and the two that have been reported being purchased on here came from BB.

One of the biggest advantages with the extended warranty that I forgot to mention is that if within 3 or 4 years you do use it, you should be able to apply the full retail amount that you paid for your current set towards a new model.

Hello,

I realize this is a tad off-topic and I really do apologize for that in advance, but I'm not sure where else to post my question...

Does anyone know for certain whether or not to 10G Kuros will have the brighter screens, as they are supposed to? If so, is there any reasonable expectation that they will run a greater risk of eventual burn-in, or is that a non-issue? D-nice, as you are our best authority on these matters, have you received any word about this?

Anyway, in no way do I wish to detract from the present enthusiasm over the 9Gs. The 8G I saw shortly after buying my 4081F Samsung was astonishing, so I can only imagine what the 9G Elites are like. I would buy one if I weren't so cheap, but I prefer to hold off on this iteration and wait for the 10Gs. Besides--my doughty little Samsung, while unequivocally inferior to a Kuro (the current hubbub over the XBR8s just has me giggling), serves me well enough for now.

Yours,

David

FocusedOne your right, I was told that. Also, I stopped buying extended warranties when I saw a report, on 60 minutes or Dateline, based on a Consumer Reports study that indicated only 2% of all electronics manufactured every year fail. And those that fail typically do so within the first 30 days. To be fair they did suggest an extended warranty on plasma's. However, I saw this report in 2005. Not sure if it's still applicable especially the part concerning plasmas. In looking over the Best Buy extended warranty I couldn't see to many advanyages to it and too many out-clauses. Still knowing that, I'm always tempted to buy an extended warranty but seldom do so anymore.

Maybe, I'll live to regret it some day.

Had to chime in. Awhile back I wanted to return my 150FD to Ultimate Electronics. I did not keep the box, (my fault) and they played hard ball with me. Which is fine, if I was a Joe Schmoe off the street. However, I spent a lot of money and thought I had built a relationship with them over the years. Not once did they even attempt to go to bat for me. It was a bitter experience, and I will never shop there again. Which is why I purchased my upcoming 151FD from a forum sponsor. Which after reading here, I expect a very positive experience...

My point is, customer service is not relevant to these big box stores. You had every right to return your defective $6500 tv. If you have to return it again, take his money and go somewhere else who will appreciate your hard earned dollar.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now...


Great point about customer service and sorry about your experience with ultimate.

You would be surprised how how there markup% is sometimes. I have seen it as high as 60% on certain TV's.

Got to be a sucker boutique; like Harvey Electronics or Lyric HiFi here in New York. Only an ill-informed customer, with more money than common sense would pay that much, without comparison shopping.

But then again... merchants like these hypnotize the customer into thinking they're getting more than they actually are.

Typical drivel:

* We at Harvey's don't think of it as a sale, but more like a partnership. We stand behind out merchandise 100%. Nobody supports their customers more than Harvey's!!!.

Guess what, you have to keep on feeding the 'partnership', or it disappears. In the final analysis, you're getting little more (or less in some cases) than you'd get at BB or CC.

Sorry for my cynicism, but I've been doing this for a long time...

A_C

One of the biggest advantages with the extended warranty that I forgot to mention is that if within 3 or 4 years you do use it, you should be able to apply the full retail amount that you paid for your current set towards a new model.

Hi FocusedOne,

I don't mean to be overly picky, but in fact many extended warranty plans will not give you the full retail value you paid for your set. I know this because I had an extended warranty on a defective panel last year and had to redeem the warranty. They only gave me the current market replacement value on the set, which was a good $1000 less than what I originally paid. Now, this was BB, so it may well be the case that other retailers are more generous in their extended warranty plans, but I wouldn't count on it.

So long as one is buying a reliable product, I think extended warranties tend to benefit retailers far more than they do customers. At any rate, I advise people to make sure they read *all* the terms of the contract and fully understand every clause therein.

Yours,

David

Just an FYI, spoke to one of my contacts and the 111FDs will be available this week.:D :D :D :D

They just don't like me because I always try to get the best deal possible.

As if they wouldn't do the same thing when shopping for themselves. Such double standard. :rolleyes:

Manager: "Oh, I'm sorry sir, we no longer have any of those in stock. I just checked (Our inventory program has a glitch) What's that? No, even when we get them in, I won't be offering you the same discount as before. You're not exactly our best customer right now, you know..."

A_C

Customer: OH I am sorry to hear that, so I'll be on my way.
Then customer goes into parking lot and call his buddy or a relative and has them walk into store and buy the Television for them. Or better yet, waits until the next day to have them do it so manager won't be suspicious. Then customer calls BBB and reports the manager for customer discrimination.

One of the biggest advantages with the extended warranty that I forgot to mention is that if within 3 or 4 years you do use it, you should be able to apply the full retail amount that you paid for your current set towards a new model.

Which store has this policy???

A_C

One of the biggest advantages with the extended warranty that I forgot to mention is that if within 3 or 4 years you do use it, you should be able to apply the full retail amount that you paid for your current set towards a new model.

Better check the details on that. I know it used to be if the SAME PROBLEM occured 3 times then you get credit for a comparable item. You might be right but I'd double check that to be sure.:)

Just because a merchant discounts something at 20% doesn't automatically mean their margins are at least 20%. All it means is that the merchandise is not moving at the ticketed price and they need to make the price more attractive. The price may have gone down since it was procured... They may need the space in the warehouse for new merchandise... (a big factor in discounts), etc. Merchants offer goods below cost all the time, or dollar cost average their costs across the board.

That being said, without any accurate citations, it's kind of pointless to debate this issue any further.

That being said; as someone who was in retail consumer electronics years ago, I found this to be the biggest area of consumer misconception. People routinely assume the merchant is making far more than they actually are.

For example, If you pull the average consumer off the street, point to a $100 item in a store window and ask; "How much do you think this cost the merchant to buy?" They will invariably say; "$50". Which is never the case.

Whether the margin is 10%, 15% or 30%, returns amount to losses (in both time and money), so people should be mindful not to abuse the system.

A_C

I would imagine it's closer to 40% (especially on Elites), but I have no way of confirming that. Regardless, I don't see it as abusing the system if the items I have returned are defective. The 30 day return policy is literally all that best buy has left to keep customers, imo. Because other than that, their prices suck, their customer service sucks, their information and knowledge sucks, and paying sales tax sucks. With online retailers like amazon, who almost always beat best buy's price (plus no tax and usually free shipping) and can now offer practically the same level of coverage, one of the only ways that best buy is holding onto customers is with that 30 day policy. That, and the business they get from people that just don't care about saving.

Hi FocusedOne,

I don't mean to be overly picky, but in fact many extended warranty plans will not give you the full retail value you paid for your set. I know this because I had an extended warranty on a defective panel last year and had to redeem the warranty. They only gave me the current market replacement value on the set, which was a good $1000 less than what I originally paid. Now, this was BB, so it may well be the case that other retailers are more generous in their extended warranty plans, but I wouldn't count on it.

So long as one is buying a reliable product, I think extended warranties tend to benefit retailers far more than they do customers. At any rate, I advise people to make sure they read *all* the terms of the contract and fully understand every clause therein.

Yours,

David

I stand corrected and this doesn't surprise me in the least. It also doesn't surprise me when companies like bb try and weasel their way out of honoring the warranty.

Customer: OH I am sorry to hear that, so I'll be on my way.
Then customer goes into parking lot and call his buddy or a relative and has them walk into store and buy the Television for them. Or better yet, waits until the next day to have them do it so manager won't be suspicious. Then customer calls BBB and reports the manager for customer discrimination.

Not a very plausible scenario... Do you really want to burden a friend or relative with something like this? Do you want your TV in your friend or relative's name? Is this really how you like to spend your time? Will your wife let you act out this little drama?

You seem like an intelligent chap.. No, no, no & probably not are the likely answers.

A_C

D-Nice:

Do you think the majority of the Elite models will be pixel-perfect? The 151FD that I am returning today has two dead pixels in the center of the screen that are most noticeable as black dots on any blue background. Am I wrong to expect perfection?

ima no D nice, but yes the large majority of regular and Elite panels will be pixel perfect. as i mentioned in another post it is just a numbers game and you got a bad number:(. there are pixels that go out after the set leaves the factory so there is no way thay can guarantee the sets are pixel perfect. it is just part of the plasma tech just like the buzz

you got a decent deal at 15% off and it paid off because it included that bb 30 day return period. hopefully they can get you another pro151 fast and it is pixel perfcet and no buzz too.

and for the ext warranty you could get a mack 3 year add for plasma under $7500 to give you 5 total years on your pro151 for about $440, compared to the $900 from bb

One of the biggest advantages with the extended warranty that I forgot to mention is that if within 3 or 4 years you do use it, you should be able to apply the full retail amount that you paid for your current set towards a new model.


This is how they tried to sell it to me!

I stand corrected and this doesn't surprise me in the least. It also doesn't surprise me when companies like bb try and weasel their way out of honoring the warranty.

Hi FocusedOne,

Yeah, they're about as bad as bad gets. They even tried to avoid giving me the replacement value, initially, but after half an hour of fighting, when they noticed that I wouldn't just walk away from the counter all sheepish and depressed and wouldn't let them treat my panel as a cheaper variety worth half what mine was, they finally gave me the store credit (whoopee!). I will never buy anything from those guys again. In the future, I think it'll be either Robert or Amazon.

Yours,

David

ima no D nice, but yes the large majority of regular and Elite panels will be pixel perfect. as i mentioned in another post it is just a numbers game and you got a bad number:(. there are pixels that go out after the set leaves the factory so there is no way thay can guarantee the sets are pixel perfect. it is just part of the plasma tech just like the buzz

you got a decent deal at 15% off and it paid off because it included that bb 30 day return period. hopefully they can get you another pro151 fast and it is pixel perfcet and no buzz too.


Thanks for the reply and this is music to my ears. My new 151 is scheduled to be here Thursday, however, the last 2 TVs that I ordered came in the day before the scheduled date. Each time, I had to go into the store myself and inquire about them (they didn't even bother to call me) and they came back saying, "well, what do you know, it's here..."

Great customer service (insert sarcasm)

i have a 3 year old panasonic dlp and it is also pretty loud when nothing else is on. i think its a fan or something. would u say the buzz is comparable to a dlp fan?

i have a mits 62" dlp and the fan(s) noise is louder then the buzz but it is less of an issue since it blends in better.

Manager: "Oh, I'm sorry sir, we no longer have any of those in stock. I just checked (Our inventory program has a glitch) What's that? No, even when we get them in, I won't be offering you the same discount as before. You're not exactly our best customer right now, you know..."

A_C

I agree, I highly doubt I could get the same discount again. However, I could very easily drive down the street to the next bb, plop down my cash, and I'd bet that they would want my business and give me the same discount.

who is the most trusted and most reputable forum sponser to buy for.. im lookign to buy a pioneer 5020 and im looking for it to arrive as quickly as possible can some of u pm me or mention a reputable forum sponer dealer..

Robert @ Value Electronics

+1
I think its more than just a job with Robert, its a passion. And he really knows his stuff.
It really blew me away when I heard that Robert sent D-Nice a 6020 to do his reference settings/evauation on just to help all of us forum members out so we would get our reference settings and get an honest review.
That along with the other countless satisfied customer stories was the main reason I chose to buy my 6020 from him. The experience was exactly what I had hoped for and I would buy from him again any day and I am sure I will.
-Chad

Dang, who was the first 111FD owner? I missed that post! Can't keep up!

A few lucky souls may have taken possession, but, to my knowledge, no one has bragged about theirs in the forum as yet. Maybe bandito will do the honors when he picks his up on Wednesday.

..... Oh and by the way,
If the new TV has dead/stuck pixels, or is a buzzer and he denies you a replacement and gives you a refund.
Then you need to take the refund and walk out the front door, do a 180, walk right back in and purchase another one. He cannot stop you.


yes they can stop him. they are not obligated by law to sell to him.
Plus they may say ok now we want to sell it to you at full $6500 retail instead of the 15% off, do you still want to make that purchase?

They coulda slapped a 10% open box on it and made more money... or used it as a floor model since most people would never see the pixel issue anyway with regualr content playing all the time.

i agree they shoulda treated him nicely but bb has been on a big inititative to reduce returns and even call some customers devil customers due to their patterns or returns. anytime one of the biggest $$$ products you sell is returned it's gonna get looked at.

Regardless, I don't see it as abusing the system if the items I have returned are defective. The 30 day return policy is literally all that best buy has left to keep customers, imo. Because other than that, their prices suck, their customer service sucks, their information and knowledge sucks, and paying sales tax sucks.

With online retailers like amazon,

The problem arises when a customer judges something to be a defect (pixels, buzz) that is not acknowledged to be a defect by the manufacturer or seller. The only recourse is a return under the 30 days 'no questions asked' policy.

There ARE people here who would think nothing about buying and returning 3 sets until they get what is not just a 'non-defective set' but in their eyes a perfect set.

And as far as not getting satisfaction from BB, good luck getting that return for bad pixels on that Amazon sale .... NOT

Buying something like this from Amazon is just plain Roulette.

Remember what people did to Costco when they had that great return policy. What was it called? The 'rent a tv" policy. Not for a minute do I think that Focusedone is unjustified in returning his display and it sounds like he got a pissy little tyrant but I'm sure that BB noticed what happens when return policies are too liberal. As an aside, it's always interesting to me when people making $10 an hour take their jobs so seriously. Just good people trying to keep their commitment to an employer? Or do they simply feel powerless most of the time until, that is, they get to work and lord over customers?

Am I wrong to expect perfection?

It is a great question and I would find it interesting to get some Sponsor's input on this topic ...

It seems to me, the majority of people responding to you say, "You deserve "perfection"" ... and many basically are saying, "Screw the B&M's, support a Sponsor"

Which leads to the very logical question ... which Sponsors guarantee 100% pixels and no 'Buzz', and in the "very rare occurrence of a problem" .... who pays the return shipping and how long would it take to get the replacement set???

Sponsor's ... is he wrong???

Based on my most recent negotiations, the margins at BB are at least 21% on flat panels. I also saw the cost into the store when at another store in Chicago and 21% was also their percent under MSRP. I calculate my 21% by taking (MSRP-Cost)/MSRP.....

do you think that bb corporate would allow the true cost to be shown in their stores system?? whatever numbers for cost you saw in any bb store computer are not true cost figures so you are mistaken. at pioneer msrp you could easily be looking at 35-45% margins.

Just purchased the 151 from BB, i do not if i made a wise choice at this point. I ma coming from a 150, from what i hear is the the 150 would be a better choice offering sm controls. I will be ISF calibrating the plasma, so i don't think the sm controls would make a big difference for me. Had question for you guys do you know when the signature series will be out. the first post suggests Oct., but for some reason i doubt it.

yes they can stop him. they are not obligated by law to sell to him.
Plus they may say ok now we want to sell it to you at full $6500 retail instead of the 15% off, do you still want to make that purchase?

They coulda slapped a 10% open box on it and made more money... or used it as a floor model since most people would never see the pixel issue anyway with regualr content playing all the time.

i agree they shoulda treated him nicely but bb has been on a big inititative to reduce returns and even call some customers devil customers due to their patterns or returns. anytime one of the biggest $$$ products you sell is returned it's gonna get looked at.

That's true, they have no obligation to sell to me and can refuse me service.

I also agree that they are paying more attention to their margins. I am almost positive that, while I am still on good overall terms with them, I have been blacklisted to some degree. Most of the managers know me by name.

Dang, who was the first 111FD owner? I missed that post! Can't keep up!

2 of the 151's

The problem arises when a customer judges something to be a defect (pixels, buzz) that is not acknowledged to be a defect by the manufacturer or seller. The only recourse is a return under the 30 days 'no questions asked' policy.

There ARE people here who would think nothing about buying and returning 3 sets until they get what is not just a 'non-defective set' but in their eyes a perfect set.

And as far as not getting satisfaction from BB, good luck getting that return for bad pixels on that Amazon sale .... NOT

Buying something like this from Amazon is just plain Roulette.

I didn't realize Amazon was still that bad (with large purchases).

Great point about what is acknowledged to be defective. I was prepared to catch some flack for returning it over dead pixels. Fortunately, the store manager got right up on the TV (within 3 feet), saw them instantly, and it was hard to refute.

does anyone know if the elites have any sm settings taken away? purhaps saved for the sig series?

does anyone know if the elites have any sm settings taken away? purhaps saved for the sig series?Why would you need to make adjustments in an Elite's SM? Also, who said the SM doesn't exist on the non-Elites?

Just purchased the 151 from BB, i do not if i made a wise choice at this point. I ma coming from a 150, from what i hear is the the 150 would be a better choice offering sm controls. I will be ISF calibrating the plasma, so i don't think the sm controls would make a big difference for me. Had question for you guys do you know when the signature series will be out. the first post suggests Oct., but for some reason i doubt it.

there is no need to go into the sevice menu on the Kuro Elites. if you have the monies to buy a pro150 and now a pro151 then it should be a great plasma for you. just make sure you get a good isf tech not one from bb as their services for isf calibrations has been noted as not too good overall.

the sig series release is still tbd. but the Elites were released much earlier then thought so hopefully that is a good sign.

does anyone know if the elites have any sm settings taken away? purhaps saved for the sig series?

pioneer will just add those extra settings in the software that are the added features of the sig series.

Remember what people did to Costco when they had that great return policy. What was it called? The 'rent a tv" policy. Not for a minute do I think that Focusedone is unjustified in returning his display and it sounds like he got a pissy little tyrant but I'm sure that BB noticed what happens when return policies are too liberal. As an aside, it's always interesting to me when people making $10 an hour take their jobs so seriously. Just good people trying to keep their commitment to an employer? Or do they simply feel powerless most of the time until, that is, they get to work and lord over customers?


Costco still has a fairly liberal return policy if I'm not mistaken. A budget-minded friend of mine bought a Vizio there for this reason. I have even returned a mattress to them well after it was outside of their policy. I am sure they get taken advantage of sometimes because of their leniency. However, the buzz over good customer service that they have created, imo, has been fantastic for their business. As a result, people shop there without fear of being messed with later.

As a side note, the manager working when I returned the 151 was the very worst one who hated me the most. We had gotten into it (diplomatically) a little bit before and he basically just walked away from customer service and let me go about my business because I proved him wrong. They have a hard time understanding what 30 days/no questions asked means.

For every major purchase (which were all special orders) I had customer service print out an exchange receipt on the day my order came in so that my 30 days started from the day I took possession of the item. I also got triple reward zone points on everything and should have about $450 in GC's coming back.

Why would you need to make adjustments in an Elite's SM? Also, who said the SM doesn't exist on the non-Elites?

sorry i assumed when people got elites calbrated that the servicer went into the sm as well to make adjustments and that part of your settings might take part in that. As for the non elites im just thinking that like you, pioneer has been watching these forums and that the reason they changed how you get in is to prevent entry. So it may not exist unless your an authorized pio service tech, time will tell of course. Your the man, but i just don't think people should assume you "will" get in. Unless you would like to reassure us all?

It is a great question and I would find it interesting to get some Sponsor's input on this topic ...

It seems to me, the majority of people responding to you say, "You deserve "perfection"" ... and many basically are saying, "Screw the B&M's, support a Sponsor"

Which leads to the very logical question ... which Sponsors guarantee 100% pixels and no 'Buzz', and in the "very rare occurrence of a problem" .... who pays the return shipping and how long would it take to get the replacement set???

Sponsor's ... is he wrong???


I don't think anyone would offer coverage like that at this point. They may be much more willing to go to bat for you with pioneer, though. Maybe in the future they will offer a premium coverage of some sort. Chad made a suggestion similar to this, and I agree. I would happily pay several hundred dollars more than regular sponsor prices to have some sort of pixel/buzz/satisfaction guarantee. But to be honest, I think this might prove difficult to be cost effective, especially considering how anal we all are about our electronics.

I didn't see the cost numbers at BB. I said I received a price at Best Buy at a given percentage. I also received the same price at another store in Chicago (not BB) and they had their cost listed as well as available dates of delivery and the list of preorders.

The available dates were in July at that store and July/August for the BDP05FD blu-ray player.

I am not arguing that I know the cost mind you, I am simply stating that their cost is at least (read that as greater than) 21%. So you are right, 35-45% is greater than 21%. You said the same thing without reading and understanding my post.

I just want to make it clear that 10% holiday coupons, 10% internet coupons and 10% price negotiations are still making them plenty of profit.

do you think that bb corporate would allow the true cost to be shown in their stores system?? whatever numbers for cost you saw in any bb store computer are not true cost figures so you are mistaken. at pioneer msrp you could easily be looking at 35-45% margins.

i have a question if you were to have your dealer open your box and check it for pixels and buzz ect, what are the negitives about doing this? i heard most prefer unopened boxes?

sorry i assumed when people got elites calbrated that the servicer went into the sm as well to make adjustments and that part of your settings might take part in that. As for the non elites im just thinking that like you, pioneer has been watching these forums and that the reason they changed how you get in is to prevent entry. So it may not exist unless your an authorized pio service tech, time will tell of course. Your the man, but i just don't think people should assume you "will" get in. Unless you would like to reassure us all?I'm going to get in....just don't know what I'm going to see when I get in there.