Thanks for the feedback. well i have the best ISF guy available in the chicagoland area, i have spoken with him before to see what he knows. from the the things Dnice talks about he knew what he was doing. So hopefully he knows what hes doing, if not i will ask for a refund. And thanks D-nice for all the hard work you do for us to get the best picture quality out of our pioneers. if it was not for your feedback i would never have bought a pioneer. well the pioneer should be here tomorrow or Friday, hoping its tomorrow. Hopefully the signature series comes out within the 30 days, if so i will exchange out. if not guess ill have to keep the 151. are there going to be any major differences in the picture quality between the 151 and Sig series. i know they are much lighter and don't have speakers and turner.


As for the markup should be around 32-35%. on pro 151

i have a question if you were to have your dealer open your box and check it for pixels and buzz ect, what are the negitives about doing this? i heard most prefer unopened boxes?

still a chance of pixels going out after it is delivered. and the buzz is hard to hear in any retail setting. plus any order shipped is coming from a distribution center not directly from the dealer.

still a chance of pixels going out after it is delivered.

What do you mean by this? Are you saying that dead pixels happen because of delivery?

Are you able to network the TV with a computer through the ethernet cable. Do you get the capability of playing videos without using DirecTv HD DVR platstation or AppleTV?

I don't think anyone would offer coverage like that at this point. They may be much more willing to go to bat for you with pioneer, though. Maybe in the future they will offer a premium coverage of some sort. Chad made a suggestion similar to this, and I agree. I would happily pay several hundred dollars more than regular sponsor prices to have some sort of pixel/buzz/satisfaction guarantee. But to be honest, I think this might prove difficult to be cost effective, especially considering how anal we all are about our electronics.

I am not sure Pioneer would replace a 60" for a few dead pixels ... but another good question for the Sponsors :)

You want perfection + discount from MSRP + the bragging rights to be the first on the block with an Elite ... seems like you got it all. Just a shame Best Buy did not also do it all with a smile :D

As I posted before ... I will view mine at 14', so dead pixel is not an issue. I will not stand for an audible 'Buzz' at 14' , or one when I move it to the bedroom at 10', and listen with headphones, and get kicked in the leg and told to "turn off the f-ing buzzing TV!!!" :eek: ... that is why I would have been happy with yours!

P.S. I might have asked Best Buy for a dead pixel discount ;)

Fortunately, the store manager got right up on the TV (within 3 feet), saw them instantly, and it was hard to refute.

You do realize that being able to see a bad pixel from 3 feet is NOT considered defective by Pioneer or any plasma manufacturer?

This is a defect only 'in your mind'. Don't confuse defect with perfection.

You do realize that being able to see a bad pixel from 3 feet is NOT considered defective by Pioneer or any plasma manufacturer.

This is a defect only 'in your mind'. Don't confuse defect with perfection.

From the manual:

"If the defective pixels are visible at the standard viewing distance of between 2.5 and 3.5 meters (8.2 feet and 11.5 feet) while viewing a normal broadcast (i.e. not a test card, still image, or single color display) please immediately contact Pioneer Customer Support (USA) or Customer Satisfaction (CANADA). See inside back cover for contact information. If, however, the faulty pixels can only be seen close up or during single color displays then this is considered normal for this technology."

From the manual:

If, however, the faulty pixels can only be seen close up or during single color displays then this is considered normal for this technology."

Thank you fallenbuddha ...

D,

When's the post calibration info coming? :)

D,

When's the post calibration info coming? :)

I believe he said "Tuesday".

From the manual:

"If the defective pixels are visible at the standard viewing distance of between 2.5 and 3.5 meters (8.2 feet and 11.5 feet) while viewing a normal broadcast (i.e. not a test card, still image, or single color display) please immediately contact Pioneer Customer Support (USA) or Customer Satisfaction (CANADA). See inside back cover for contact information. If, however, the faulty pixels can only be seen close up or during single color displays then this is considered normal for this technology."

Thanks for the post. I had already read that and was aware of it when I took the TV back. The bb folks had no clue about that (not that it should matter with a 30 day return policy - I should be able to return the TV if it looked at me wrong.) To be accurate, I could see the dead pixels from about 5-6 feet max. In addition, call me crazy, but I feel like it is my right to have a perfect set when I am paying a bb premium on an already astronomically expensive TV. I didn't make the rules, I'm just playing the game.

That said, If I get a stuck or dead pixel on the next one that is not in the center of the screen and only noticeable from less than 5 feet, I will most likely keep the unit. The PQ of the 151 was outstanding and there is no other TV for me. I am counting on having some buzz, but it couldn't be any worse than the last one.

You do realize that being able to see a bad pixel from 3 feet is NOT considered defective by Pioneer or any plasma manufacturer?

This is a defect only 'in your mind'. Don't confuse defect with perfection.


No, it is a defect, plain and simple. Now, your other point was better - whether pioneer acknowledges it is a defect is another story.

:confused:

Come on now; PDP6020s are selling for $5500 at BB, and dealer cost is approx. $3600 to a small dealer. I'm sure BB is doing even better, either by volume or end-of period quota credits from Pioneer. So unless your math is better than mine, I'd say that is one healthy margin at approx. 50%. The forum sponsors may be working on a 15% margin ($4200/3600=16.7%), so they may have a valid gripe if being hit with returns, but certainly not BB.

Heck, any open box item I've ever seen at Best Buy was still higher than I'd pay from a reputable online dealer or fair/competitive local dealer for a BRAND NEW unit!

The few times I've tried, I've never been able to even get them to come down to a fair deal on an open-box item. Even after grabbing a manager and telling him he still had plenty of margin to work with. Oh well......


Although the manager could have been more diplomatic, what he’s telling you is accurate.

Margins are very low on flat screens. Once someone returns an item, it can no longer be sold as new. It either has to go back to the factory to be recertified and repacked; and then sold as refurbished, or it’s offered as on open box item at cost or below. Either way it’s a loss. When a customer returns the same item multiple times, it’s a bigger loss.

Right now, I’ll estimate your business represents a net loss for Best Buy. Offering you a full refund is perfectly reasonable.

A_C

Any feedback on how the 6020 compares to last years elite, the Pro 150?

:confused:

Come on now; PDP6020s are selling for $5500 at BB, and dealer cost is approx. $3600 to a small dealer.

Please tell me how you know this.

A_C

FYI ... just got back from Best Buy. They tell me they have the 5020, 6020, 111 and 151 in stock and ready for delivery. The only display unit they have in this area is a 5020 at Mt. Vernon, NY (not close to me) ... and no plans to have a display in NYC for at least a couple weeks (they know me well from my many trips in looking at the 6010)

I asked about getting the returned one from CO ... the Salesman just laughed and said, "those AVSForum folks are full of ****" ... I laughed, thinking he even knew what AVSForum was :D ... and he also recommended waiting for the Signature Series (which I was amazed he knew anything about)

He told me he would read this thread when he gets home tonight. So if you are reading it ... get me that 151 from LI at 'Open Box' pricing!!!

I am not sure Pioneer would replace a 60" for a few dead pixels

From the manual:

"If the defective pixels are visible at the standard viewing distance of between 2.5 and 3.5 meters (8.2 feet and 11.5 feet) while viewing a normal broadcast (i.e. not a test card, still image, or single color display) please immediately contact Pioneer Customer Support (USA) or Customer Satisfaction (CANADA). See inside back cover for contact information. If, however, the faulty pixels can only be seen close up or during single color displays then this is considered normal for this technology."

As I thought ...

My 42" LCD had 3 dead pixels ... I called the manufacturer and was told their policy was at least 6 anywhere on the Display, or 3 within the direct center. I assumed a 60" would have a higher number based on having about twice as many pixels ... but you would have to have a 'cluster' of dead pixels to see it at 8' to 11'

Please tell me how you know this.

A_Che is close to what DC is..He is dam close :)

Basic question here--I'm anxiously awaiting my 151. I assume there will eventually be some D-Nice reference settings for this display. Will that get you close to an ISF calibration result, or is there really no shortcut to such a service?

any takers?

any takers?

Well...the settings are good enough for D-Nice and he's a stickler for a quality viewing experience. And, well, he IS calibrating his sets. He's just doing it on his own.

he is close to what DC is..He is dam close :)

Please answer my question... How do you know what dealer cost is?

A_C

I'm getting it because:

1. I want that thinner panel. 64mm is pretty amazing.
2. I already owned a 150FD and figured I might as well get something different.
3. I want that "Signature" label on the front of my panel (jk ;))
4. I don't care for speakers or a tuner, but I admit I'll be looking into getting a stand.

All good reasons...except if you were using that 'logic' on your wife. ;)

And as far as not getting satisfaction from BB, good luck getting that return for bad pixels on that Amazon sale .... NOT

Buying something like this from Amazon is just plain Roulette.

As much as I hate to take up for amazon, I have to say that is incorrect. Amazons return policy is exactly like Best buys. They will allow the return.

People should not mention that they are returning a Tv for simply one or two dead pixels. This will cause the manager/customer service rep to start looking into the problem. And then they may give you a hard time.

The best thing to do is simply say, "I am unhappy with this purchase and have decided not to keep it". Thats all you have to say.

:confused:

Come on now; PDP6020s are selling for $5500 at BB, and dealer cost is approx. $3600 to a small dealer. I'm sure BB is doing even better, either by volume or end-of period quota credits from Pioneer. So unless your math is better than mine, I'd say that is one healthy margin at approx. 50%. The forum sponsors may be working on a 15% margin ($4200/3600=16.7%), so they may have a valid gripe if being hit with returns, but certainly not BB.

Heck, any open box item I've ever seen at Best Buy was still higher than I'd pay from a reputable online dealer or fair/competitive local dealer for a BRAND NEW unit!

The few times I've tried, I've never been able to even get them to come down to a fair deal on an open-box item. Even after grabbing a manager and telling him he still had plenty of margin to work with. Oh well......

Originally Posted by Agent_C View Post
Although the manager could have been more diplomatic, what he’s telling you is accurate.

Margins are very low on flat screens. Once someone returns an item, it can no longer be sold as new. It either has to go back to the factory to be recertified and repacked; and then sold as refurbished, or it’s offered as on open box item at cost or below. Either way it’s a loss. When a customer returns the same item multiple times, it’s a bigger loss.

Right now, I’ll estimate your business represents a net loss for Best Buy. Offering you a full refund is perfectly reasonable.

A_C


His math is better than yours. 1900.00 profit from 5500.00 gross is a hair less than 35% profit margin (1900/5500). That's on a brand new, just came out, premium flat panel. It goes downhill from there fast, figuring multiple employees on the clock dealing with you, return packing, shipping, etc. and/or marking your return down to sell it as opened.

As I thought ...

My 42" LCD had 3 dead pixels ... I called the manufacturer and was told their policy was at least 6 anywhere on the Display, or 3 within the direct center. I assumed a 60" would have a higher number based on having about twice as many pixels ... but you would have to have a 'cluster' of dead pixels to see it at 8' to 11'

Say what? Isn't (1920x1080) = (1920x1080)?

60" tv's have the same resolution but more pixels? :confused:

Only way I see a difference is if your 42" was 720p

Please answer my question... How do you know what dealer cost is?

A_C
does it really matter how someone knows.. how does he know.?

Say what? Isn't (1920x1080) = (1920x1080)?

60" tv's have the same resolution but more pixels? :confused:

Only way I see a difference is if your 42" was 720p

Was thinking 1920x1080 per square inch ... not per screen

"1080p is the shorthand name for a category of display resolutions. The number "1080" represents 1,080 lines of vertical resolution,[1] while the letter p stands for progressive scan (meaning the image is not interlaced). 1080p is considered an HDTV video mode. The term usually assumes a widescreen aspect ratio of 16:9, implying a horizontal resolution of 1920 pixels. This creates a frame resolution of 1920×1080, or 2,073,600 pixels in total. The frame rate in Hertz can be either implied by the context or specified after the letter p, such as 1080p30, meaning 30 Hz."

2,073,600 pixels per screen ... Learn something new everyday

It is that choppy motion that the 120hz samsung and sony television get when they are in that mode. You know the hyper-real look. The pioneer we have only does it in very fast action (e.g. a boat getting tossed around on waves with the camera mounted to the deck). The delay on the other hand is quite noticeable. It seems to freeze for a millisecond on cut scenes. While it is not that noticeable when it is the only tv on, it is very bad when other tv around it are on the same feed. It is like the tv is delaying or doubling the frame when it switches between cut scenes or camera angles. Does anyone know what causes this delay or is it a defective unit and I should sent it back to pio?


Wow, have you tried hooking up the video source directly to the display. Another words, do not share the video signal with another TV? I would check to see if that would help.


I have connected two bluray players (a ps3 and a sharp bdhp20u), I played both blurays and dvds in the players and still get the delay. I think this tv is defective. I hope the 6020 comes in soon so I can compare. I really hope this is not how the sets are designed.

No, it is a defect, plain and simple. Now, your other point was better - whether pioneer acknowledges it is a defect is another story.

I agree with you 100%. Maybe this is Pioneer's policy but regardless the panel had a defect with the dead pixels. Pioneer is just setting a tolerance for how bad the defect can be plus maybe bad quality control. Perfect panels are normal and can be obtained with no dead pixels. I have gone through the same thing with Dell regarding LCD panels and dead pixels and these are at a much lower price than a $6500 plasma tv. My tolerance is a perfect panel with zero dead pixels or it goes back. Another reason for buying from someone who has the 30 day exchange. If you have to.... keep exchanging or getting a refund til they get it right.

As much as I hate to take up for amazon, I have to say that is incorrect. Amazons return policy is exactly like Best buys. They will allow the return.

People should not mention that they are returning a Tv for simply one or two dead pixels. This will cause the manager/customer service rep to start looking into the problem. And then they may give you a hard time.

The best thing to do is simply say, "I am unhappy with this purchase and have decided not to keep it". Thats all you have to say.


Exactly..........play the game that the retailers have created.

Just need a quick confirmation on the 9G glass. Local dealer told me that the glass is made by pani. I thought I read on earlier threads that wasn't till next years 10G.

I asked how he knew and he said he just taked to his Pioneer rep. Thats why the price for a 150 he has is now $300. more than a new 151 he will receive in July ??? I was hoping for price movement on the 150.
This doesn't sound right. How can I confirm the glass specs???
Can anyone give me some feedback ??

Not sure if anyone would know this except for the techs in the Pioneer QC dept, but I'll put it out there anyway:

when a panel is being inspected at Pioneer for the final inspection from QC, do you think when they notice, say "a few bad pixels" it would get rejected or would it get the stamp of approval as supposedly this is just a part of the technology and within Pioneers tolerence? That is to say, do you think its a mistake when a TV with bad pixels makes it passed QC? How cost effective would it be for Pioneer to fix bad pixels once they are identified in QC? Would the entire panel need to be scrapped? Anyone with PDP manufacturing experience in here?

thanks!

What exactly does the "Black Level" option do? Everyone turned off "Black Level" in the 8g Pioneers. I see that the only mode on the non-elites that does not have it enabled is Game. Are we sure there is no loss of dark detail in the other modes?

does it really matter how someone knows.. how does he know.?

Yes, when one suspects, as I do, that neither party has any idea what the actual dealer cost is.

This is something that's is generally held very close. I simply don't believe that a given merchant just divulges it; truthfully at least. I've known plenty that bull$hit about it though...

A_C

As much as I hate to take up for amazon, I have to say that is incorrect. Amazons return policy is exactly like Best buys. They will allow the return.

People should not mention that they are returning a Tv for simply one or two dead pixels. This will cause the manager/customer service rep to start looking into the problem. And then they may give you a hard time.

The best thing to do is simply say, "I am unhappy with this purchase and have decided not to keep it". Thats all you have to say.


Theoretically, I agree with you. A 30 day, no questions asked return policy should be just that. However, I think it would be naive to assume that they wouldn't at least want an explanation as to why they should swap out such an expensive item. If all I wanted was my money back, I would have no problem saying that I was just unhappy with the purchase. But the reality is that I really love the TV and want the best unit I can get.

I think the stores vary by location as well. Some seem to be in a better position to bargain. Some also seem to more willingly take better care of their customers. I used to live in Scottsdale, AZ, a pretty wealthy place. I don't think I've ever caught near the attitude there as I have here in po-dunk Colorado. Bottomline, it is excruciatingly evident that this store in CO doesn't do near the volume that my hometown Scottsdale store did - so each sale matters more. Sometimes this CO store seems to operate like a private venture - and I have to keep reminding them of the corporate policies.

Heck, any open box item I've ever seen at Best Buy was still higher than I'd pay from a reputable online dealer or fair/competitive local dealer for a BRAND NEW unit!

The few times I've tried, I've never been able to even get them to come down to a fair deal on an open-box item. Even after grabbing a manager and telling him he still had plenty of margin to work with. Oh well......

Not at my bestbuy! I hate open box tvs. We have 30 of them in store now. I sell just about every openbox tv at EPP. Most stores get their biggest margin in accessories and add-ons anyway. BB always makes up the discounted price.

His math is better than yours. 1900.00 profit from 5500.00 gross is a hair less than 35% profit margin (1900/5500). That's on a brand new, just came out, premium flat panel. It goes downhill from there fast, figuring multiple employees on the clock dealing with you, return packing, shipping, etc. and/or marking your return down to sell it as opened.

You're still basing the math on unproven data. I'll ask again; how do you know what dealer cost is????

A_C

Just need a quick confirmation on the 9G glass. Local dealer told me that the glass is made by pani. I thought I read on earlier threads that wasn't till next years 10G.

I asked how he knew and he said he just taked to his Pioneer rep. Thats why the price for a 150 he has is now $300. more than a new 151 he will receive in July ??? I was hoping for price movement on the 150.
This doesn't sound right. How can I confirm the glass specs???
Can anyone give me some feedback ??

Local dealer is 100% wrong. Pioneer is still making its own glass this year.

Not at my bestbuy! I hate open box tvs. We have 30 of them in store now. I sell just about every openbox tv at EPP.

Where is your Best Buy? The stores in Atlanta don't negotiate price at all.

Yes, when one suspects, as I do, that neither party has any idea what the actual dealer cost is.

This is something that's is generally held very close. I simply don't believe that a given merchant just divulges it; truthfully at least. I've known plenty that bull$hit about it though...

A_C

are you a auth pioneer dealer? i guess you will have to take my word on HOW i KNOW what it is.

You in the market for a new pioneer ?

if you have any other questions you can pm me

Let's talk about the product, not the method of obtaining/returning it.

Just need a quick confirmation on the 9G glass. Local dealer told me that the glass is made by pani. I thought I read on earlier threads that wasn't till next years 10G.

I asked how he knew and he said he just taked to his Pioneer rep. Thats why the price for a 150 he has is now $300. more than a new 151 he will receive in July ??? I was hoping for price movement on the 150.
This doesn't sound right. How can I confirm the glass specs???
Can anyone give me some feedback ??

9G is the last of the Pio glass. Your local dealer is as loose with the facts as our President. Here. (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/PlasmaTVs+Monitors/Pioneer+is+committed+to+introducing+new+innovations+in+plasm a+and+other+high+definition+technologies.)

The relevant language:

"The next generation KURO flat panel televisions will be coming this summer as planned with no change in Pioneer production."

Just need a quick confirmation on the 9G glass. Local dealer told me that the glass is made by pani. I thought I read on earlier threads that wasn't till next years 10G.

I asked how he knew and he said he just taked to his Pioneer rep. Thats why the price for a 150 he has is now $300. more than a new 151 he will receive in July ??? I was hoping for price movement on the 150.
This doesn't sound right. How can I confirm the glass specs???
Can anyone give me some feedback ??


Your local dealer is wrong. I don't know how a pioneer rep could give him such misleading info. The 9G pioneer kuros all have glass manufactured by pioneer - they are the last all pioneer displays. The 10Gs will be the first kuros with panny glass.

Pioneer dropped the msrp of the kuros this year, that is why they are starting off for less money than the 8Gs did. Because of the black levels/improved contrast, a 151 is almost sure to have a better PQ than a 150. DNice's initial analysis of the 6020 vs. 8G Elite had him favoring the 6020. You should be able to read his full report tomorrow.

Let's talk about the product, not the method of obtaining/returning it.

I hear you, but this is the 9G General Discussion thread, and talking about obtaining/returning 9G kuros is both relevant and appropriate to the thread title.

And personally, I think this has been an interesting dialog and certainly beneficial to the average consumer.

You're still basing the math on unproven data. I'll ask again; how do you know what dealer cost is????

A_C

Isn't it typically 50-60% of retail?


bob

Where is your Best Buy? The stores in Atlanta don't negotiate price at all.

We have to sell open box at a lower price because the college students here in gainesville return televisions all the time. So there is not enough shelf space to put the tvs and they just get piled up in the warehouse. How many open box tvs do they have in the atlanta store? You have to keep checking back at the store and look if they have a lot of open tvs. Even at my store where you can get a good deal, we don't discount much if we only have a few sets openbox.

are you a auth pioneer dealer? i guess you will have to take my word on HOW i KNOW what it is.

You in the market for a new pioneer ?

if you have any other questions you can pm me

Are you?

There's nothing in your public profile to suggest that you're a Pioneer dealer. If you are and you participate in the forum, you have a duty to divulge that.

Take your word for it? Why? Support your assertions with something of substance.

A_C

Isn't it typically 50-60% of retail?

bob

On furniture or apparel yes, but not on consumer electronics. Margins are much lower.

A_C

Isn't it typically 50-60% of retail?


bob

Man if the retail markup was 50-60% I would have a pioneer right now. Even when pioneer had an accommodation on the 7G it was barely 50%.

Thanks for the post. I had already read that and was aware of it when I took the TV back. The bb folks had no clue about that (not that it should matter with a 30 day return policy - I should be able to return the TV if it looked at me wrong.) To be accurate, I could see the dead pixels from about 5-6 feet max. In addition, call me crazy, but I feel like it is my right to have a perfect set when I am paying a bb premium on an already astronomically expensive TV. I didn't make the rules, I'm just playing the game.

That said, If I get a stuck or dead pixel on the next one that is not in the center of the screen and only noticeable from less than 5 feet, I will most likely keep the unit. The PQ of the 151 was outstanding and there is no other TV for me. I am counting on having some buzz, but it couldn't be any worse than the last one.


Neither does any other manufacturer. The $6500 MSRP is the price of a set that performs within some reasonable parameters. A "perfect" set would cost you a lot more than $6500. Now, how you choose to operate under BB's return policy is another matter. I'm just saying that perfection is not a goal or even advisable from the manufacturers standpoint.

Are you?

There's nothing in your public profile to suggest that you're a Pioneer dealer. If you are and you participate in the forum, you have a duty to divulge that.

Take your word for it? Why? Support your assertions with something of substance.

A_Cwhy would i have to say i am a pioneer dealer again.. why is it my duty to do this? i dont have to prove anything to you now do i.

like i said what to keep this up pm me.. i done on this topic

On furniture or apparel yes, but not on consumer electronics. Margins are much lower.

A_C
how do you know this are your a dealer on consumer electronics?

Are you?

There's nothing in your public profile to suggest that you're a Pioneer dealer. If you are and you participate in the forum, you have a duty to divulge that.

Take your word for it? Why? Support your assertions with something of substance.

A_C

Do i have to let you know im an authorized dealer? if so, i am.

Neither does any other manufacturer. The $6500 MSRP is the price of a set that performs within some reasonable parameters. A "perfect" set would cost you a lot more than $6500. Now, how you choose to operate under BB's return policy is another matter. I'm just saying that perfection is not a goal or even advisable from the manufacturers standpoint.

I disagree.

ima no D nice, but yes the large majority of regular and Elite panels will be pixel perfect. as i mentioned in another post it is just a numbers game and you got a bad number:(. there are pixels that go out after the set leaves the factory so there is no way thay can guarantee the sets are pixel perfect. it is just part of the plasma tech just like the buzz

you got a decent deal at 15% off and it paid off because it included that bb 30 day return period. hopefully they can get you another pro151 fast and it is pixel perfcet and no buzz too.

and for the ext warranty you could get a mack 3 year add for plasma under $7500 to give you 5 total years on your pro151 for about $440, compared to the $900 from bb

As this post stated, I would like to believe that the majority of these sets are pixel perfect - and the majority of the ones that are not probably don't have dead pixels in the middle of the screen.

And as someone else mentioned, I think putting a number on the amount of pixels needed to be dead and a distance on the ability to see them is pioneer's way of setting a basic guideline of parameters on warranty work.

Do i have to let you know im an authorized dealer? if so, i am.

Why should you have to tell??


bob

David, your looking at it the wrong way.


The way I was taught math is that 5500/3600=1.5278 . Anotherwords, if I invest $3600 into something and sell it for $5500, that equates to a 52.7% profit margin (before hidden costs, of course).

The profit isn't $1900 on a $5500 investment, it's a $1900 return on a $3600 investment. At least that's the way banks and the stock market work. And that's how the IRS also sees it.

Botch

Not at my bestbuy! I hate open box tvs. We have 30 of them in store now. I sell just about every openbox tv at EPP. Most stores get their biggest margin in accessories and add-ons anyway. BB always makes up the discounted price.

I wish you were in my local Best Buy! The three BB locations around here have so many DLP and flat panel open-box tvs on display that they had to add a row or two!

I scratch my head each time I pass thru.

You're still basing the math on unproven data. I'll ask again; how do you know what dealer cost is????

A_C

I have a good relationship with a dealer in my area. I have done close to 6 figures in business with him over the years (both wholesale and private purchases). He is honest with me, and that's why I have dealt with him so much. I respect an honest dealer.

When I bought my 6020 from him, he knew I had shopped around, and when heard some of the prices I was quoted, he was more than happy to show me the margin (above his cost) some of the quoting parties were working with, and that he couldn't do much better. When I saw the actual cost, I felt the price I paid was more than fair (a a few $$ better than my best quote, but not by much) based on our history.

As another poster stated, the number posted is close (rounded). Does that satisfy your question?

I disagree.



As this post stated, I would like to believe that the majority of these sets are pixel perfect - and the majority of the ones that are not probably don't have dead pixels in the middle of the screen.

And as someone else mentioned, I think putting a number on the amount of pixels needed to be dead and a distance on the ability to see them is pioneer's way of setting a basic guideline of parameters on warranty work.

Exactly so why should you be the poor guy who gets the set with the dead pixel defect. Let them sell it as an open box for the guy who seems to think that dead pixels are acceptable and arent defects.

On furniture or apparel yes, but not on consumer electronics. Margins are much lower.

A_C

Margins vary widely in the consumer electronics industry. I've been active in many facets of the electronics industry.

In the eighties when car audio was booming, margins were in the 40-50% region. No longer the case. In the telecom industry (cell etc) margins on carrier products were a lot of times a loss leader, while related accessories could yield anywhere from 50 to 500% margins, depending on where sourced and the volume involved.

In the amateur (ham) radio business, the margin is (and has been for some time) less than 10%. In the two-way radio industry, the margin is all over the place depending on the brand.

Enough for tonight - time to go horizontal and enjoy the 6020 hanging in my bedroom before I fall asleep. I haven't watched the 65" set in my family room since the 6020 went on the wall! I think I might wind up putting the 65" set at the curb, moving the 6020 to the family room, and getting a 50" for the bedroom. Otherwise I may never watch tv in the family room again. And that's where my sound system resides, so I need to get back there as my ears are having withdrawals. However, I'm quite suprised how well the 6020's speaker performs.

What do you mean by this? Are you saying that dead pixels happen because of delivery?

no what i am saying is that several avs members have had pixels that went dead or stuck sometime after they had taken delivery but when at delivery or initial check the panels were pixel perfect. so it is just something that very doubtful but could happen that anyone does get a pixel perfect panel and then has one or more go out. just another reason that pioneer or any other manuf does not have pixel perfect warranty guarantees.

Basic question here--I'm anxiously awaiting my 151. I assume there will eventually be some D-Nice reference settings for this display. Will that get you close to an ISF calibration result, or is there really no shortcut to such a service?It might depend on how well you know what your display should look like.

You are getting a display with user controls that should allow you to do just about anything. D-Nice will get the same display, and will use instruments to calibrate it to his environment. I expect that his objective will be to make the display as accurate as possible. D-Nice will most likely share those settings.

Our 6010 Kuro doesn't have the same controls and options. I used D-Nice's settings for the 6010, but I didn't go into the SM to make his additional changes. Skin tones were, as D-Nice predicted, too red without the SM changes.

Our set was calibrated by UMR, and looks significantly better. It's UMR's opinion that a calibrated 6010 is close, but doesn't match the potential of the Elite 150.

In your case, I would expect UMR to improve the PQ of your set. Until some owner's have him do Elite 9G calibrations and report back to us, it's hard to tell how much additional improvement will be possible.

I wouldn't have been happy without having our set calibrated, but you are in a different situation. Also you've got time to tweak, and read because a calibration is best done after you've lived with the display for a while.

no what i am saying is that several avs members have had pixels that went dead or stuck sometime after they had taken delivery but when at delivery or initial check the panels were pixel perfect. so it is just something that very doubtful but could happen that anyone does get a pixel perfect panel and then has one or more go out. just another reason that pioneer or any other manuf does not have pixel perfect warranty guarantees.

I wonder how many of said AVSers actually had dead pixels from the beginning, but didn't notice them at first.

I disagree.



As this post stated, I would like to believe that the majority of these sets are pixel perfect - and the majority of the ones that are not probably don't have dead pixels in the middle of the screen.

And as someone else mentioned, I think putting a number on the amount of pixels needed to be dead and a distance on the ability to see them is pioneer's way of setting a basic guideline of parameters on warranty work.



I'm not sure if we really disagree. Your pixel problem may or may not fall within the acceptable guidlines. I just know that manufacturers do not attempt to make, and the market place does not demand, "perfect" sets (taking everything into account). The guidlines on dead pixels is stated in the manual. It's not just for warranty work. It's also a standard for production.

Where is your Best Buy? The stores in Atlanta don't negotiate price at all.

Yes they do, but you have to speak with the GM,

anyway they still cant touch forum sponsor pricing, especially after tax and delivery is factored in.

But BB is good for the whining Bitc**s who return sets for one dead pixel. (You know who you are, girly pants):D

I was told by 2-3 forum sponsors that cost is about $3600 before any shipping charges are accounted for. With shipping cost is probably $3850 on average. These are skinny margins for the forum sponsors.

Best Buys internal cost on its store computers actually shows a higher "cost" because it is "packed" with profit to account for the costs of running a big box operation.

"It's also a standard for production."

Good point, which explains how a TV like mine could get passed by QC and leave the factory, which is disappointing. However, that still doesn't change my inclination that the majority of these TVs are pixel perfect, or much closer than mine (one dead pixel in the corner).

I wonder how many of said AVSers actually had dead pixels from the beginning, but didn't notice them at first.

true :), they are looking at over 2M+ of them so coulda easily missed them to begin with. i'm sure there are many thousand++ of panels out there that are not pixel perfect, the owners have not seen it and are completely happy with their panels.

Yes they do, but you have to speak with the GM,

anyway they still cant touch forum sponsor pricing, especially after tax and delivery is factored in.

But BB is good for the whining Bitc**s who return sets for one dead pixel. (You know who you are, girly pants):D

You're right. Frankly, it's a level of insurance that most (if any) forum sponsors cannot offer.

any takers?

Probably not, I don't think D-Nice uses equipment that is anywhere near as precise as an ISF technician. Reach out to UMR, hes highly rated on this forum.

David, your looking at it the wrong way.


The way I was taught math is that 5500/3600=1.5278 . Anotherwords, if I invest $3600 into something and sell it for $5500, that equates to a 52.7% profit margin (before hidden costs, of course).

The profit isn't $1900 on a $5500 investment, it's a $1900 return on a $3600 investment. At least that's the way banks and the stock market work. And that's how the IRS also sees it.

Botch

Uh, no. Margin % = (Retail Price - Cost) ÷ Retail Price. The margin of profit on that 5500.00 dollar sale was 1900.00 dollars. 1900 dollars is just under 35% of 5500.00 dollars. If you have an item that cost you 60.00 dollars and you sell it for 100.00 dollars you made 40 'points', or percentage points of profit. The profit margin was 40%. Ask one of your buddies who works in retail (someone who deals with price sheets), or look here:

http://retail.about.com/od/retailingmath/a/retail_formulas.htm

as but one example of many.

Rate of return at a bank is a different animal. And the IRS looks at it differently too. If retailers had to pay tax (income tax, not sales tax) on gross profit before all expenses (storefront, inventory handling, employees, insurance, etc. etc.) instead of tax on what they actually made after expenses, no one could afford to be in the retail electronics business.

You're right. Frankly, it's a level of insurance that most (if any) forum sponsors cannot offer.

they could offer it but at what price would we be willing to pay for it?????? :)

plus even with a higher price from a forum sponsor they would run into the same conditions like bb, like a ok one return limit get a refund go somewhere else etc... pioneer is not going to issue them any credit for the sets returned since the panels do not qualify to be covered under pioneer warranty.

luvhatesony has returned an 1150 and two pro110 deals to his bb, his bb seems to treat his multiple returns with a much better attitude, i think he's considering a pro111 from them now.

they could offer it but at what price would we be willing to pay for it?????? :)

plus even with a higher price from a forum sponsor they would run into the same conditions like bb, like a ok one return limit get a refund go somewhere else etc... pioneer is not going to issue them any credit for the sets returned since the panels do not qualify to be covered under pioneer warranty.

luvhatesony has returned an 1150 and two pro110 deals to his bb, his bb seems to treat his multiple returns with a much better attitude, i think he's considering a pro111 from them now.

I think it would be great if they were able to offer that. I would definitely consider it because I'm sure Forum Sponsors are much nicer, more knowledgeable, and better to deal with overall.

Yes they do, but you have to speak with the GM,

anyway they still cant touch forum sponsor pricing, especially after tax and delivery is factored in.

But BB is good for the whining Bitc**s who return sets for one dead pixel. (You know who you are, girly pants):D

I'll ask to speak with him or her if I ever buy something from them again :D

I am counting on having some buzz, but it couldn't be any worse than the last one.

I'd be interested to know how it buzzes when compared to the other one you had.

I'd be interested to know how it buzzes when compared to the other one you had.

I'll definitely let you know.

Just curious (I grew up in Scottsdale)... does Spencer's carry Pioneer?

nm, I just looked it up and they don't... only mitsubishi rear projections ;)

I have connected two bluray players (a ps3 and a sharp bdhp20u), I played both blurays and dvds in the players and still get the delay. I think this tv is defective. I hope the 6020 comes in soon so I can compare. I really hope this is not how the sets are designed.


I guess we can ask. Has anyone here tried the 24fps output on a Blu-ray player and have the Pioneer play it back as 72fps (3x24) for no jitter effects?

Does the image look "smooth" or does it look more like 24fps film as how we see it in the movie theater?

I used to live in Scottsdale, AZ,

You should have let me know, it would have been fun to hang out a couple times. Anyway, I'm getting a 151FD Tuesday from the local Showcase. Just got the confirmation call today and they will be out between 3pm & 5pm. I'm going to be celebrating by going to the Scottsdale Drive-in 6! I'll be playing the break-in DVD so I won't be missing anything.

By the way, I do the Scottsdale Drive-in about once a week during the warmer months. It's a easy way to watch 2 movies for the bargain price of $4 (Tuesday nights) and helps me decide what movies I want to buy on Blu-ray. I usually can get a friend to come along, however with it warming up to 113 during the day, it gets pretty hard to convince someone to come along!

I hope you are a dealer and if so, can I purchase my next set from you. since you think you are making 52.7% profit :) we have plenty of room to negotiate. Hell, I'll buy anything from you with this math!

David, your looking at it the wrong way.


The way I was taught math is that 5500/3600=1.5278 . Anotherwords, if I invest $3600 into something and sell it for $5500, that equates to a 52.7% profit margin (before hidden costs, of course).

The profit isn't $1900 on a $5500 investment, it's a $1900 return on a $3600 investment. At least that's the way banks and the stock market work. And that's how the IRS also sees it.

Botch

You should have let me know, it would have been fun to hang out a couple times. Anyway, I'm getting a 151FD Tuesday from the local Showcase. Just got the confirmation call today and they will be out between 3pm & 5pm. I'm going to be celebrating by going to the Scottsdale Drive-in 6! I'll be playing the break-in DVD so I won't be missing anything.

By the way, I do the Scottsdale Drive-in about once a week during the warmer months. It's a easy way to watch 2 movies for the bargain price of $4 (Tuesday nights) and helps me decide what movies I want to buy on Blu-ray. I usually can get a friend to come along, however with it warming up to 113 during the day, it gets pretty hard to convince someone to come along!

I still have a lot of friends and family there, so maybe one day. At some point I'm going to help my Dad overhaul his out-of-date AV system.

Enough for tonight - time to go horizontal and enjoy the 6020 hanging in my bedroom before I fall asleep. I haven't watched the 65" set in my family room since the 6020 went on the wall! I think I might wind up putting the 65" set at the curb, moving the 6020 to the family room, and getting a 50" for the bedroom. Otherwise I may never watch tv in the family room again. And that's where my sound system resides, so I need to get back there as my ears are having withdrawals. However, I'm quite surprised how well the 6020's speaker performs.

Actually the best thing to do as you thought; move the 6020 to the family room and buy a 5020 for the bed room, and I would add a built-in surround sound system. Not too expensive and very effective. Good bang for your buck.

We love our 50 Kuro with all 5.1 recessed in-ceiling/wall speakers powered by a mid priced AVR.

Enjoy your a/v.

-Robert

I think it would be great if they were able to offer that. I would definitely consider it because I'm sure Forum Sponsors are much nicer, more knowledgeable, and better to deal with overall.

Chris (creemail) at MountAvision includes a return policy, but alas, I think they only carry non-Elites in the Pioneer line.

As much as I hate to take up for amazon, I have to say that is incorrect. Amazons return policy is exactly like Best buys. They will allow the return.


The problem is that you have no idea who you are really getting your product from.

I just ordered an Omnimount from Amazon and its coming from 'WorldWide Distributors.' Do you really want your $ 5000 investment coming from a company that sounds more like a front for stolen goods than an actual real life distributor?

The problem is that you have no idea who you are really getting your product from.

I just ordered an Omnimount from Amazon and its coming from 'WorldWide Distributors.' Do you really want your $ 5000 investment coming from a company that sounds more like a front for stolen goods than an actual real life distributor?

That's not an accurate description of how Amazon operates at all. When you go to a particular product page, you can clearly see whether the item is sold by Amazon directly, or one of their partner merchants.

For example; the PDP-6010FD (http://*******.com/5slapj) is sold by Amazon directly, and it clearly states "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com". The PDP-5010FD (http://*******.com/5l3ko3) OTOH, is sold through 6th Avenue Electronics and it's clearly stated as well; "Ships from and sold by 6ave".

For the record, I've never had a problem with an Amazon partner merchant.

A_C

That's not an accurate description of how Amazon operates at all. When you go to a particular product page, you can clearly see whether the item is sold by Amazon directly, or one of their partner merchants.

For example; the PDP-6010FD (http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-PDP-6010FD-60-inch-1080p-Plasma/dp/B000TZBYHO******sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1213712311&sr=1-1) is sold by Amazon directly, and it clearly states "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com". The PDP-5010FD (http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-PDP-5010FD-50-inch-1080p-Plasma/dp/B000TZ8544******sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1213712487&sr=1-1) OTOH, is sold through 6th Avenue Electronics and it's clearly stated as well; "Ships from and sold by 6ave".

For the record, I've never had a problem with an Amazon partner merchant.

A_C


+1 and they stand behind the purchase through the partner merchant should there be any problems. I would always check the partner merchant before ordering and try to stay with Amazon, if possible.

+1 and they stand behind the purchase through the partner merchant should there be any problems. I would always check the partner merchant before ordering and try to stay with Amazon, if possible.

I agree... I actually bought my PDP-5010FD from Amazon. At the time they were selling it directly and I had it in 3 business days.

FWIW, their affiliate merchants have to adhere to a strict set of standards in order to partner with them. It keeps them on their toes!

A_C

+1 and they stand behind the purchase through the partner merchant should there be any problems. I would always check the partner merchant before ordering and try to stay with Amazon, if possible.

Exactly. Plus, both Amazon or anybody they use will always be clearly listed as an authorized online dealer on Pioneer's site.

Authorized Online Pioneer Dealers (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/FindStore/Buy+Pioneer+Products+on+the+Internet)

I know that some of the other sponsors do business over the phone, but why are Invision and Plasma Concepts the only forum sponsors listed there?

My new PDP-6020FD arrived yesterday. Fortunately the driver agreed to help me unbox it and set it up for 20 bucks because once we got it up on the stand and took the wrapper off, we saw the cracks in the screen. :(

I already felt bad for keeping him so long, so I didn't run and grab my camera for pics. So we boxed it back up and he took it away. When I called the dealer, they apologized and said a replacement might be arranged by Friday (my fingers are crossed - I already missed one weekend of 60" bliss).

The box had no indications of damage. I can only guess that it had fallen on its face somewhere on the journey. The whole process would have been MUCH more time consuming and difficult if I hadn't unboxed it before signing for it. No matter what you do, even if you have to do it on the front porch, take the top box off and check out the glass of the unit before signing the paperwork. I wish we had checked the glass before taking everything out of the box and setting up the stand - it would have saved time.

Bob

Did last years 60" models have this much problem with broken screens? Could this be related to the single pane of glass feature making them more vulnerable?

When I bought my 6010 from Amazon, I had the choice right on the page for choosing Amazon as the provider or another provider for $40 less. I chose Amazon.

When I bought my 6010 from Amazon, I had the choice right on the page for choosing Amazon as the provider or another provider for $40 less. I chose Amazon.


More often than not, the other vendor would probably have shipping charges.

The problem arises when a customer judges something to be a defect (pixels, buzz) that is not acknowledged to be a defect by the manufacturer or seller. The only recourse is a return under the 30 days 'no questions asked' policy.

And as far as not getting satisfaction from BB, good luck getting that return for bad pixels on that Amazon sale .... NOT

Buying something like this from Amazon is just plain Roulette.

I had a very positive "buying experience" with Amazon ...

I bought a 6010 from Amazon last Thanksgiving - received it in early Dec. After about a month, a 2x2 cluster of stuck pixels (bright aqua) appeared - easily visible from across the room (15' or so). I tried the remedies suggested by many here (playing Pixar titles like The Incredibles, using the jscreenfix utility ...), and the problem pixels went away. But -- they reappeared after about a week. I went through this "run fix/cure/reappear" process three times. In late Jan., I called Pioneer and they suggested I contact a local repair facility. I called them, and the local tech said it likely was a problem with the "main video board", and that he could order one and schedule a warranty service call to swap it out. He also said if I was within the return/replace period with my vendor, I should see if they'd just replace the 6010 rather than have it repaired. So, I called Amazon Customer Service to see what my options were. They immediately offered to either give me a refund or ship a replacement. (During the holidays, they extend their normal 30-day return period to end January 31, so I actually had the set for nearly 60 days at that point ...). I opted for a replacement; about a week later, the new 6010 was delivered and the original set was taken away by the same delivery crew.

My new 6010 has been "pixel perfect", so I'm a very happy camper. I was very pleasantly surprised with how well Amazon handled this - don't think I could have asked for better customer service!

Did last years 60" models have this much problem with broken screens? Could this be related to the single pane of glass feature making them more vulnerable?

There has been a fair amount of speculation on this and I don't think you can attribute it to any one variable. First, it seems that many of the panels are broken in the final phase of their journey, usually on a smaller/3ed party contracted truck where the driver probably doesn't have to operate under stringent standards. The single pane of glass is less of a culprit, imo, than the 20% decrease in depth, which surely had to reduce the rigidity of the unit. And in general, a 60 inch piece of glass is always going to be more fragile than a 50.

My wall limits me to a 50 inch screen. Am hearing lots about 151s. Any sightings of the 111s yet?

There has been a fair amount of speculation on this and I don't think you can attribute it to any one variable. First, it seems that many of the panels are broken in the final phase of their journey, usually on a smaller/3ed party contracted truck where the driver probably doesn't have to operate under stringent standards. The single pane of glass is less of a culprit, imo, than the 20% decrease in depth, which surely had to reduce the rigidity of the unit. And in general, a 60 inch piece of glass is always going to be more fragile than a 50.

I am aware of all that, but I just scanned the 8g forum and it seems we have already had almost as many cracked screens as I found in all of the 8g forum. The search function here is about worthless, but there weren't that many in the whole 8g generation. I don't see why the decrease in depth would make the glass more fragile.

My wall limits me to a 50 inch screen. Am hearing lots about 151s. Any sightings of the 111s yet?

I'm hoping to pick mine up tomorrow. I'll let everyone know what I think.

"I don't see why the decrease in depth would make the glass more fragile."

As an example, I would think that a rectangular cardboard box that is 2 inches thick/deep would be more flexible than the same rectangular box that is 4 inches thick/deep, hence less rigid. I don't think the reduction in depth is the main problem, but possibly a contributor. The biggest problem seems to be careless shipping.

I have recieved a couple calls on broken screens ands I have read alot on them as well about the new 6020's. From our end we have seen it coming from only one freight company. Question to those who's screen where cracked, what freight company delivered it?

luvhatesony has returned an 1150 and two pro110 deals to his bb, his bb seems to treat his multiple returns with a much better attitude, i think he's considering a pro111 from them now.

This is true. My 1150 was exchanged for my first 110 no questions asked. After noticing some significant pq issues with that one I exchanged it for another 110 wich there were happy to do for me but they did plug in the 110 i was exchanging to verify the pq issue which they saw right away when they put in a blu ray and without any hassle sold me another 110.

After catching wind the 111's were coming out, (at a grand less than what I paid for my 110!), as hard as it was i decided to return my 110 for something better and less expensive since I was still under my 30 days.

There was a significant amount of buzz on my last 110 but I didnt even have to mention that as reason for returning it because again they took it back no questions asked and just made sure everthing that came with it was in the box.

I am one of those that am not too bothered with the buzzing and would not return a set for that reason as long as the pq is as good as its suppose to be on these Kuros. Elites especially. As I said once before the 111 will offer everthing Im personally looking for on a panel and will be my last set for a good while despite any buzzing that it may produce.

Ive been fortunate enough to deal with more than reasonable BB employees that honor their policy and have even been told by them "we want to make sure you have a set that makes you happy".

This type of customer service, at least at my particular BB Mag, and the honoring of their return policy has been the reason Ive been OK with paying MSRP price and the reason they will keep my buisness once they attain the 111's.

It has a very slight buzz, virtually inaudible with any audio on. When the room was dead silent, I could hear it only when I got up close to the display.

My sammy 5053 buzzed like a neon sign in a bar.

I am counting on having some buzz, but it couldn't be any worse than the last one.


I am confused :confused:

The one you returned, the 'Buzz' was "virtually inaudible" ... but the new one you get "couldn't be any worse"

How is that possible ... or are you saying you would return it, if it is worse?


fyi, you were one of a handful who claimed "virtually no buzz"

I actually posted a second time about the buzz, and thought it was louder upon my re-evaluation. With my surround on, I was hard pressed to hear it. With the room completely silent, I could hear it from up to about 12-14 feet away. To be fair, I also have very good hearing. That said, buzz is the least of my concerns with these displays. I think they will all buzz to a degree. I think different people's ability to hear it is also a big factor.

I returned my set for the dead pixels, not the buzz. I expect the next one to buzz as well. I am willing to accept some buzzing in exchange for the best PQ possible.

This is true. My 1150 was exchanged for my first 110 no questions asked. After noticing some significant pq issues with that one I exchanged it for another 110 wich there were happy to do for me but they did plug in the 110 i was exchanging to verify the pq issue which they saw right away when they put in a blu ray and without any hassle sold me another 110.

After catching wind the 111's were coming out, (at a grand less than what I paid for my 110!), as hard as it was i decided to return my 110 for something better and less expensive since I was still under my 30 days.

There was a significant amount of buzz on my last 110 but I didnt even have to mention that as reason for returning it because again they took it back no questions asked and just made sure everthing that came with it was in the box.

I am one of those that am not too bothered with the buzzing and would not return a set for that reason as long as the pq is as good as its suppose to be on these Kuros. Elites especially. As I said once before the 111 will offer everthing Im personally looking for on a panel and will be my last set for a good while despite any buzzing that it may produce.

Ive been fortunate enough to deal with more than reasonable BB employees that honor their policy and have even been told by them "we want to make sure you have a set that makes you happy".

This type of customer service, at least at my particular BB Mag, and the honoring of their return policy has been the reason Ive been OK with paying MSRP price and the reason they will keep my buisness once they attain the 111's.

As I said before ....

There ARE people here who would think nothing about buying and returning 3 sets until they get what is not just a 'non-defective set' but in their eyes a perfect set.

Of the three returns, one was because you decided you wanted another set after trying out the 1150, another was because you wanted to upgrade to a newer model. Good thing the buzzing doesn't bother you or you might have run thru 5 sets.

So BB is left with 3 open boxes. You better be paying full price because that is the only way the'd make any money off of you.

Maybe the person who tried to return his set because of his pixel problem just walked in the door after your third exchange and caught the manager in a grumpy mood.

Am I wrong to expect perfection?

It is a great question and I would find it interesting to get some Sponsor's input on this topic ...

Sponsor's ... is he wrong???

I knew this was a loaded question when I asked it, but since 24hrs have past ... and not one Sponsor has touched this question. I 'assume' their united silence answers it :p

When in a bar fight, I find the person telling you that they would "not put up with that!!!" ... is not the person standing next to you when the fists start to fly :p The Sponsors were the smart ones sitting off to the side, and minding their own business.

As for Best Buy ...

Well, my 6020 came in today... but I decided to upgrade to a PRO-151FD, which will be here (Colorado) on Friday. :)

... as I see it, Best Buy has been very patient. You ordered a 6020, and when they got it for you, you changed your order. Then you bring back the 151 for a pixel issue you cannot see at a normal viewing distance, and know Pioneer would not cover, and are mad they exchanged it without a big smile :D

Best of luck with the new 151 ... but I bet no Sponsor will be PM'ing you for your business :eek: :p :D

With the room completely silent, I could hear it from up to about 12-14 feet away

DOES ANYONE HAVE A 9G THAT DOES NOT 'BUZZ'???

Dnice,

Did you ever get into the SM and were you able to modify RGB settings in there?

Did anyone purchase their TVs from the Pioneer store at Costa Mesa? What's their policy of returns and exchanges when there are stuck pixels or excessive buzz? Were they easy to deal with? Thanks!

DOES ANYONE HAVE A 9G THAT DOES NOT 'BUZZ'???

What part of

Glass panel buzz is inherent to the Pioneer PDP design.

are people not getting? The question isn't whether the Kuro buzzes. It's whether your Kuro has EXCESSIVE buzz.

DOES ANYONE HAVE A 9G THAT DOES NOT 'BUZZ'???

Mine makes no more sound than the last two Pannys I owned. A little buzz if you put your head behind the panel and if the volume is off you can hear a tiny buzz within maybe five or six feet. I've never owned a Pionner so maybe some are differen't then mine, but I can't imagine anyone having a problem with it under normal use.

The question isn't whether the Kuro buzzes. It's whether your Kuro has EXCESSIVE buzz.

Audible at 14' ... is EXCESSIVE buzz, but you are correct that a tiny buzz near the Display is inherent ... and expected

Mine makes no more sound than the last two Pannys I owned. A little buzz if you put your head behind the panel and if the volume is off you can hear a tiny buzz within maybe five or six feet. I've never owned a Pionner so maybe some are differen't then mine, but I can't imagine anyone having a problem with it under normal use.

Great ... we have 1

D-Nice, how is yours?

Audible at 14' ... is EXCESSIVE buzz

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I can sometimes hear my CRT's electronic hum at 14 feet. I would not call it excessive.

OK, I'm starting to feel a little guilty for absorbing all the great information from the forum and not sharing my information. After lurking and reading everything I could, I was converted from thinking about an LCD to a plasma screen. This meant that I went back out and visited almost every store again in a fifty mile radius of my house. It didn't take long to realize that Pioneer had the best picture. I had learned after a camera purchase that it is very necessary to visit the best rating sites on the Internet for actual buyer responses on their purchases. With this information in hand, I emailed all of the AVS sponsors (or filled out the quote request on their websites) with a request for a price quote. For whatever reason, I received back only a few replies and some were a week late.

The dealer that was back to me within an hour or so was Chris at Cleveland Plasma. I emailed him several times with questions, and I was always amazed at how quickly he responded. One time I emailed him pretty late at night (west coast time) thinking I would be first on his list the next morning -- and he still emailed me right back. After that I watched my time closer to let the poor guy get his sleep.

Anyway I purchased a 6020 from him and had it shipped to the nearest depot. The big delivery truck going down my one mile of rutted dirt driveway would not only kill my television, but every other fragile item on the truck. The shipping company was SEKA who I have never heard about before, with another sub agent involved from LAX to the Ontario, CA area. Luckily I had taken CP's inspection instructions with me because the shipper wasn't too thrilled about opening up the box before loading it into my truck, but they read it through and helped me take the box off. My first impression was "man, they'd have to drop this thing off the dock to hurt it". I figured maybe Pioneer had skimped on the packaging after reading about the broken screens, but this thing was very well protected. Anyway, everything looked good and they loaded it in the back of my pickup.

Getting to the good part. I have been watching more TV than running the break-in disk. I can't see how anyone could have such a great picture and not plant themselves in front of it and just watch it. I do finally tear myself away and then put on the disk when I leave. The picture is perfect, and I cannot see where I am going to miss any of the controls they left off this year - why mess with perfection. I finally did check for dead or stuck pixels and cannot see any. I also could not hear any buzz, but I figured that might be the luck of my age, so I had my son and his girl friend check. All anyone could hear was a little fan noise when your ear was close to the top of the set. All ears to the front of the set produced no noise that we could hear. All we really can hear is the fan in the DTV receiver a few feet away, and this was with the volume turned down and a bright action screen running.

By the way "Lust4Speed" comes from my love of quick cars and drag racing. Also it took about a few days for me to stop watching the picture and actually watch the movie.

Mine is not audible at 13' feet in 99% of your typical applications. the 1% ONLY consists of a completely white screen. When the screen is not white-white and is grayer, then it is not audible.

Great ... we have 1

D-Nice, how is yours?I've already stated that the 6020 I have does not buzz any louder than my 1150....and that one doesn't buzz any louder than my previously owned Panasonic 37PX60u :)

Does anyone have knowledge as to why the pro150 weighs 10 ibs. more than the pro151. ( meaning what has been subtracted from the panel?):confused:
TIA...

Anyone have the Pro111fd yet? This is my main object of desire right now.

Does anyone have knowledge as to why the pro150 weighs 10 ibs. more than the pro151. ( meaning what has been subtracted from the panel?):confused:
TIA...
Depth.

The PRO-150FD was 4 13/16" deep. The PRO-151FD is only 3 21/32" deep.

Does anyone have knowledge as to why the pro150 weighs 10 ibs. more than the pro151. ( meaning what has been subtracted from the panel?):confused:
TIA...

10lbs. :) There's been a change in dimensions.

The 150 (w/o speakers): 57 15/16 x 34 23/32 x 4 13/16
The 151 (w/o speakers): 57 11/16 x 34 1/2 x 3 21/32

As I said before ....

There ARE people here who would think nothing about buying and returning 3 sets until they get what is not just a 'non-defective set' but in their eyes a perfect set.

Of the three returns, one was because you decided you wanted another set after trying out the 1150, another was because you wanted to upgrade to a newer model. Good thing the buzzing doesn't bother you or you might have run thru 5 sets.

So BB is left with 3 open boxes. You better be paying full price because that is the only way the'd make any money off of you.

Maybe the person who tried to return his set because of his pixel problem just walked in the door after your third exchange and caught the manager in a grumpy mood.

Actually it was only 2 open boxes they ended up with. The first 110 I returned did have legitimate picture issues and was considered defective and was not sold and probably sent back to Pioneer. I can get confirmation on this if you reeeeally care.

They ended up selling the 1150 for more money than what I paid for since at the time I bought it they matched Tweeters clearance price but sold it for more later.

Either way my intention isnt to abuse the system regardless of what you think you know about me and for me to waste anymore time convincing you or anybody else of this is futile.

The buzz on my 6020 is very low and not audible at my seating distance of 12'.

I've already stated that the 6020 I have does not buzz any louder than my 1150....and that one doesn't buzz any louder than my previously owned Panasonic 37PX60u :)

Thanks everyone ... I really want a 6020 or 151 and was staring to get 'Buzz' paranoia from reading this Forum. A minor buzz that cannot be heard at a normal viewing distance (I figure is 8'+ for me) would be fine :D

Thanks everyone ... I really want a 6020 or 151 and was staring to get 'Buzz' paranoia from reading this Forum. A minor buzz that cannot be heard at a normal viewing distance (I figure is 8'+ for me) would be fine :D
Distance is irrelevant. Intensity matters.

Distance is irrelevant. Intensity matters.


That's what she said :p

The only time I hear a buzz on the 6020 is if there is no sound on and the tv is showing at the least a 90 percent white screen. It seems to only happen with white.

I was sitting on the sofa yesterday with the tv being about 8-9feet away and was taking a defensive driving course online for 4 hours while the tv was running the break in dvd and not once did I notice the buzz. The buzz was there on a white screen but it wasn't loud enough to break my concentration at all.

do the samsung 6 series buzz?

Depth.

The PRO-150FD was 4 13/16" deep. The PRO-151FD is only 3 21/32" deep.


So a reduction of a depth of 1 5/32'' would acquit itself of a 10 lb. weight loss? Seems like some guts would have had to been removed also...

Alright...I'm the first to admit that I've not followed the detailed discussion on which settings are what...the differences in color space...the different display modes, etc., etc...nor have I read the manual cover to cover (yet). I actually thought my PRO 151FD wouldn't get here until August so I thought I had plenty of time to study. As it turns out, however, it's going to be delivered this coming Saturday (06/21/08). :eek:

I suddenly have this sinking feeling that I used to get in school the night before a big exam when I realized I'd put off studying just a little toooo long. Besides, I thought D-Nice would have had a 151FD long before me and I thought I could have just copied off his paper!:D

So...."D" if you're out there...is it ok to start the break-in period using your break-in settings from last year? That is, assuming these menu options are still available?

I take it that to "fill the screen", one puts it in "ZOOM" aspect mode...or is it called something else?

Recommended (which means it's OPTIONAL!!!!) 150 Hour Break-In settings for Pioneer 4280/5080/5010FD/6010FD/Elite 950/1150/110FD/150FD (ONLY to be used with Evangelo2's Break-in DVD and a DVD player!!! DO NOT USE THESE SETTINGS WITH ANY OTHER DVD, CABLE BOX, SAT BOX, ETC!!!!!!!!!!)

Main Menu:
AV Selection: Standard
Contrast: 50
Brightness: -2
Color: +15
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 0

Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Off

Picture Detail:

DRE Picture: High
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 3

Color Detail:

Color Temp: High

CTI: Off

Noise Reduction:

DNR: Off
Field NR: Off

Power Save Mode: Off

After the break in period, I thought I'd just use D-Nice's "Reference Settings" for the 8G until such time as UMR gets out in October to calibrate things.

D-Nice...if you can help me just pass this first test....I promise (cross my heart and hope to die) I'll read the blinking manual cover to cover, and I promise I'll read EVERY word you write about the 151FD from now on.:p

Thanks,

-Dean

Alright...I'm the first to admit that I've not followed the detailed discussion on which settings are what...the differences in color space...the different display modes, etc., etc...nor have I read the manual cover to cover (yet). I actually thought my PRO 151FD wouldn't get here until August so I thought I had plenty of time to study. As it turns out, however, it's going to be delivered this coming Saturday (06/21/08). :eek:

I suddenly have this sinking feeling that I used to get in school the night before a big exam when I realized I'd put off studying just a little toooo long. Besides, I thought D-Nice would have had a 151FD long before me and I thought I could have just copied off his paper!:D

So...."D" if you're out there...is it ok to start the break-in period using your break-in settings from last year? That is, assuming these menu options are still available?

I take it that to "fill the screen", one puts it in "ZOOM" aspect mode...or is it called something else?

Recommended (which means it's OPTIONAL!!!!) 150 Hour Break-In settings for Pioneer 4280/5080/5010FD/6010FD/Elite 950/1150/110FD/150FD (ONLY to be used with Evangelo2's Break-in DVD and a DVD player!!! DO NOT USE THESE SETTINGS WITH ANY OTHER DVD, CABLE BOX, SAT BOX, ETC!!!!!!!!!!)

Main Menu:
AV Selection: Standard
Contrast: 50
Brightness: -2
Color: +15
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 0

Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Off

Picture Detail:

DRE Picture: High
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 3

Color Detail:

Color Temp: High

CTI: Off

Noise Reduction:

DNR: Off
Field NR: Off

Power Save Mode: Off

After the break in period, I thought I'd just use D-Nice's "Reference Settings" for the 8G until such time as UMR gets out in October to calibrate things.

D-Nice...if you can help me just pass this first test....I promise (cross my heart and hope to die) I'll read the blinking manual cover to cover, and I promise I'll read EVERY word you write about the 151FD from now on.:p

Thanks,

-DeanYou can use the 8G break in settings for now. I'm hoping to have a 111FD next week. As soon as I get one, I'll post settings for it.

Does anybody know if the media player on the 111 (or 5020, for that matter) will be able to loop the break-in images without a border, or is it necessary to burn the disc and play it on a DVD player?

Hello Everyone;
Where can one buy or have access to a break in disk for the PRO-115FD and is this something that can be played or looped through a PS3?

Hello Everyone;
Where can one buy or have access to a break in disk for the PRO-115FD and is this something that can be played or looped through a PS3?

eaprogramming.com and it works in anything that will play a DVD-R.

Hi,
Does anyone have a link for the Elite line 2008 PDF Catalog brochure? The current one on Pio's site is from last year.
Thanks

Hi,
Does anyone have a link for the Elite line 2008 PDF Catalog brochure? The current one on Pio's site is from last year.
Thanks

Post #1.

No, I am talking about the entire line catalog like this one from last year:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/8G%20ELITE%20CAT%20FINAL.pdf

Also I just notice if I go to find authorized dealer in my area on the Pio's site, they are just showing Magnolia. Last week they had way more vendors. Not sure why is this happening.

El Bandito, yes from the media player you would be able to loop the pictures in a slideshow. I am running the break-in images off of a USB thumb drive.

I take it that to "fill the screen", one puts it in "ZOOM" aspect mode...or is it called something else?The break-in DVD has an aspect ratio of 1.78:1 which will fill your screen. Just be sure to use the 8G break-in settings ONLY with the break-in DVD. If you want to watch a movie or TV program, be sure to use the 8G reference settings for the 150. In that situation Zoom if you need to fill the screen. I would try to stick with movies with a 1.78:1 aspect ratio or something like Discovery Channel which is always 1.78:1 (16x9).

Remember to enjoy. ;)

Does anyone here feel that break-in actually improves the quality of the picture, or is this kind of like skipping over the cracks on a sidewalk?

Isn't it a little stupid of pioneer to make the 6020 available so much before the 151?

Besides the additional picture adjustment ability, is there anything else in the 151 like better upconverting or better blacks or ANYTHING? I just want to believe I'm paying for more than just a nicer stand and color options I dont know how to use.

No, I am talking about the entire line catalog like this one from last year:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/8G%20ELITE%20CAT%20FINAL.pdf

Also I just notice if I go to find authorized dealer in my area on the Pio's site, they are just showing Magnolia. Last week they had way more vendors. Not sure why is this happening.

Oh. Here's (http://files.pioneer.eu/files/brochures/2008/H_Preview/08_H_PREVIEW_EN.pdf)the European catalog. Other than that, I've got nothing.

I'm ready to buy a 6020 now, but I'd like to have the option to return it if the buzz is too loud in my particular unit, or if there are too many dead/stuck pixels. Has anybody been able to bargain down BestBuy (which lists it at MSRP, $5500) to match or at least get close to the forum sponsors' prices? The difference is huge, enormous, gigantic! Please PM me since we can't discuss prices below MSRP openly...

Thanks,
Bill

Oh. Here's (http://files.pioneer.eu/files/brochures/2008/H_Preview/08_H_PREVIEW_EN.pdf)the European catalog. Other than that, I've got nothing.

Thanks man!

Does anyone here feel that break-in actually improves the quality of the picture, or is this kind of like skipping over the cracks on a sidewalk?

Isn't it a little stupid of pioneer to make the 6020 available so much before the 151?

Besides the additional picture adjustment ability, is there anything else in the 151 like better upconverting or better blacks or ANYTHING? I just want to believe I'm paying for more than just a nicer stand and color options I dont know how to use.

I don't believe the break-in DVD has anything to do with improving PQ. In DNice's words, it is to make shared settings more plausible. This means that the break-in will serve to evenly wear in the pixels during the first critical 150 hours and to get the sets on a more level playing field. All sets are a little different, so getting them to a similar state will help insure that the settings DNice eventually recommends will work in more of a universal sense. Someone feel free to correct me if this is wrong.

The 151 has many picture, color, and NR settings that the 6020 does not - many people have posted the list of differences, check both the Elite and non-Elite owners threads. It also has 2 years on the warranty, a back-lit remote, and a few other things.

Sorry if this is off topic, but does anyone know which color temps are hard coded into which av settings? I'm looking for which one is set to mid.

This is for the 6020.

DOES ANYONE HAVE A 9G THAT DOES NOT 'BUZZ'???

Just got mine!

Buzz..I have to be one foot or less to hear a slight buzz. Other than that, I can't even hear it. Even with the full white screen the sound does not change. In fact, I can hear the refrigerator over any noise the 151FD "might" be making. I'll have to wait till the refrigerator stops before doing some more listening tests.

No dead or stuck pixels that I can see (yet). And I have not really looked all that closely to see if I can find one or not.

The only thing I can see that MIGHT be a problem is what looks like a dirty screen with solid color images. Almost looks like patterns (and what looks like a streak or two, but not like a totally straight lighter line of a streak) light and dark that don't change with changes in solid color images. I'm sure it's not anything I would notice with "normal" video signals.

Does anyone know if this could be a pattern on the break-in disc? More than likely, it's the screen. In fact, I think I have read about the "dirty screen" look, though I don't know much about what's been said about it.

What's funny, is the delivery guys were wondering about the break-in disc. They were seeing wavy lines (or maybe it's just the movement one sees when close to the screen) and such from the DVD (only component connections) So I though "ok, I'll show them a straight digital signal" so I hooked up a HDMI cable to the 151FD, turned on the DirecTV receiver and had them change the input for me. There it was, a GREAT looking image of some NFL action. Somehow I must have pressed a series of buttons that made my recording of the Superbowl play (Fox 720P to 1080P) cause I saw the time bars along the bottom of the screen. So how that happened, I don't know. What I do know, is that it looked great and I did not notice any "dirty screen" effect with the "regular" video content.

I'm going to post the same info in the Elite 9G owners thread. Later, I expect to have some images to share and a surprise or two within that Elite thread! But that won't come for at least the next few hours. I've got a lot of cleaning up to do to take care of the mess that was involved with the arrival of the 151FD.

Sorry if this is off topic, but does anyone know which color temps are hard coded into which av settings on the 6020? I'm looking for which one is set to mid.

thanks focusedone. i guess let me put it another way, i know that the 151 has uber more setting options. the question is whether it is an inherently better panel. A sales guy was once trying to tell me that there are actually physical differences between the non-elite and elites.

This is for anyone who has a 6020, if you are done with break in, what do you keep brightness on in a lit room?

thanks focusedone. i guess let me put it another way, i know that the 151 has uber more setting options. the question is whether it is an inherently better panel. A sales guy was once trying to tell me that there are actually physical differences between the non-elite and elites.

I believe they are exactly the same panel, except that they've gone through more rigorous QA at the factory (or was that for the signature series only?). Anyway, the Elite are the same hardware, (much) better software. Whether it's worth it or not is up to you. For me it wasn't worth the extra money (extra extra money here in Canadia), so I'm getting a 6020.

I was told today that the new G9's will be arriving at Canadian dealers next week!

I was told today that the new G9's will be arriving at Canadian dealers next week!

This is what is expected indeed.

Got to be a sucker boutique; like Harvey Electronics or Lyric HiFi here in New York. Only an ill-informed customer, with more money than common sense would pay that much, without comparison shopping.

But then again... merchants like these hypnotize the customer into thinking they're getting more than they actually are.

Typical drivel:

* We at Harvey's don't think of it as a sale, but more like a partnership. We stand behind out merchandise 100%. Nobody supports their customers more than Harvey's!!!.

Guess what, you have to keep on feeding the 'partnership', or it disappears. In the final analysis, you're getting little more (or less in some cases) than you'd get at BB or CC.

Sorry for my cynicism, but I've been doing this for a long time...

A_C

I second that! Every time I went into Harvey's off 5th Avenue they look at me like vultures calculating how hard they can rape my wallet.
First few times I went in wearing a suit, they were all over me. Next few times I came in on a weekend wearing a t-shirt and khakis), I was left alone to do my browsing and playing with the picture settings.
That's how I got my pro-1130 over 2 years ago. Play there, buy elsewhere!
Lesson learned.

I'm ready to buy a 6020 now, but I'd like to have the option to return it if the buzz is too loud in my particular unit, or if there are too many dead/stuck pixels. Has anybody been able to bargain down BestBuy (which lists it at MSRP, $5500) to match or at least get close to the forum sponsors' prices? The difference is huge, enormous, gigantic! Please PM me since we can't discuss prices below MSRP openly...

Thanks,
Bill

My local BB offered 10% off MSRP I'm sure they would have gone to 15% to match my local Ultimate Electronics but beyond that I think you wont have much chance. I doubt you will find a BB anywhere that will come close to the sponsors price.

My local BB offered 10% off MSRP I'm sure they would have gone to 15% to match my local Ultimate Electronics but beyond that I think you wont have much chance. I doubt you will find a BB anywhere that will come close to the sponsors price.

They are marking up there Pioneer Line 60% (very true) they can't go below a certain price point or they in trouble.

My local BB offered 10% off MSRP I'm sure they would have gone to 15% to match my local Ultimate Electronics but beyond that I think you wont have much chance. I doubt you will find a BB anywhere that will come close to the sponsors price.

I used a 12% coupon at Best Buy, which got me close to the only forum sponsor that would sell me an Elite (still had to pay tax, but you're supposed to pay that anyway, and this ensures that I'll pay it). Plus, if you use a Best Buy CC, you owe no interest for 2 years. If you invest the money you would've spent on the TV in a simple savings account, like ING, the interest is equivalent to another 4% or so off the purchase price.

The 12% coupon wouldn't have brought the non-Elite close to the forum sponsor prices, however.

The 6020 with the cracked screen was delivered yesterday and I just received a call from the delivery folks - the replacement is being delivered tomorrow!!!

Now THAT's service! Thanks Deb@Invision!

Bob

fwiw, the original deliver co. was FedEx. Although... with the TVs coming from overseas in cargo containers and never being opened until they arrive at the new owner's house, the shipping insurance must cover the whole distance and not just the FedEx part.

The break-in DVD has an aspect ratio of 1.78:1 which will fill your screen. Just be sure to use the 8G break-in settings ONLY with the break-in DVD. If you want to watch a movie or TV program, be sure to use the 8G reference settings for the 150. In that situation Zoom if you need to fill the screen. I would try to stick with movies with a 1.78:1 aspect ratio or something like Discovery Channel which is always 1.78:1 (16x9).

Remember to enjoy. ;)
Hey...thanks. I guess I'm just getting a little excited. Sort of like an expectant father that wants to be all prepared for the new born.

If all I have to do is pop in the DVD using the break-in settings right after I power it up...and not worry about having to change the initial aspect ratio...then I think I can handle that. :p Meanwhile, I can sit and read the manual while I watch the pretty colors!

Shutterman

Where are you located?

The 6020 with the cracked screen was delivered yesterday and I just received a call from the delivery folks - the replacement is being delivered tomorrow!!!
Bob
fwiw, the original deliver co. was FedEx. Although... with the TVs coming from overseas in cargo containers and never being opened until they arrive at the new owner's house, the shipping insurance must cover the whole distance and not just the FedEx part.

the panels are made overseas and shipped to California where they are assembled, so they certainly are inspected before being put in the boxes and shipped out to the pioneer distributors, then its drop shipped to the end user, or to a dealer/warehouse/store as in bb case. So your cracked screen happened somewhere between the assembly plant in CA then whichever distribution center your panel was shipped to and your location.

So a reduction of a depth of 1 5/32'' would acquit itself of a 10 lb. weight loss? Seems like some guts would have had to been removed also...

that 1 5/32" could easily account for a 10 lb reduction. thats a 1 5/32 elimination around the complete ~58 x 38 inch frame. Plus the "guts do not have to be removed but since there is less space they obviously had to redesign/reduce the size (= weight) also of some of those "guts. suprised it's not more than 10 lbs.

Sorry if this is off topic, but does anyone know which color temps are hard coded into which av settings on the 6020? I'm looking for which one is set to mid.

dnice should have a thorough review of his 6020 on thursday, should get all the info needed then.

nice!!!

I've already stated that the 6020 I have does not buzz any louder than my 1150....and that one doesn't buzz any louder than my previously owned Panasonic 37PX60u :)

how do you hear it? in an earlier post, I noted that I put my head to the display itself in a BB, and I couldn't hear anything. do different displays have different buzz levels (so that the pioneer that I put my head to did not have any), or does one hear the buzz only from a certain location, or ... ??

Does anybody know if the media player on the 111 (or 5020, for that matter) will be able to loop the break-in images without a border, or is it necessary to burn the disc and play it on a DVD player?

El Bandito, yes from the media player you would be able to loop the pictures in a slideshow. I am running the break-in images off of a USB thumb drive.

I was unable to do this on a 5010 using a usb drive and the images on an SD card There was a narrow (about 3/4") blue border around the image.

Does anyone else notice that their 6020 screen is off center from it's bezel. I mean like there's more black on one side than the other.

that 1 5/32" could easily account for a 10 lb reduction. thats a 1 5/32 elimination around the complete ~58 x 38 inch frame. Plus the "guts do not have to be removed but since there is less space they obviously had to redesign/reduce the size (= weight) also of some of those "guts. suprised it's not more than 10 lbs.

It's not just depth reduction. The entire set shrunk. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14102820#post14102820)

That's what I was afraid of. I guess I'll just cross my fingers and hope for mild to zero buzzing and pixel issues when I order from a forum sponsor, since the price difference is just too large...

Thanks for the replies,
Bill

My local BB offered 10% off MSRP I'm sure they would have gone to 15% to match my local Ultimate Electronics but beyond that I think you wont have much chance. I doubt you will find a BB anywhere that will come close to the sponsors price.

I'm ready to buy a 6020 now, but I'd like to have the option to return it if the buzz is too loud in my particular unit, or if there are too many dead/stuck pixels. Has anybody been able to bargain down BestBuy (which lists it at MSRP, $5500) to match or at least get close to the forum sponsors' prices? The difference is huge, enormous, gigantic! Please PM me since we can't discuss prices below MSRP openly...

Thanks,
Bill

I used a 12% coupon at Best Buy, which got me close to the only forum sponsor that would sell me an Elite (still had to pay tax, but you're supposed to pay that anyway, and this ensures that I'll pay it). Plus, if you use a Best Buy CC, you owe no interest for 2 years. If you invest the money you would've spent on the TV in a simple savings account, like ING, the interest is equivalent to another 4% or so off the purchase price.

The 12% coupon wouldn't have brought the non-Elite close to the forum sponsor prices, however.

I just went to BB-Magnolia in San Diego and they said the 151 would be shipping to buyers this Friday. So it would arrive no later than next Tuesday.

They said they would work out a lower price than MSRP. They did not specified how much, but I got the feeling they were willing to match the price of Authorized Dealers specially, if I purchased an Elite BR player alongside.
But the deal maker for me is the 24 month 0% interest free. That really helps manage such a high purchase. I might choose BB, Even though I would like to support the little B&M guy. :( We'll see.

I received my 6020 last Tuesday. I watch for a few hours in the evening but have been breaking in the unit (using Evangelos’ Plasma Break-In DVD and D-Nice’s recommended break-in settings) during most days and overnight. So far, I have about 95 hours on the Break-In DVD mixed in with significantly less actual viewing. Apologies for the late review, but I have been very busy.

Input Source: AT&T U-Verse IP-HDTV (fiber optic to twisted pair at the utility box and to the gateway/router but can be distributed via Ethernet within the home), U-Verse supplied Motorola VIP-1216 HD-DVR Set-Top Box outputting 1080i, and Oppo DV-981HD DVD Player outputting 1080p. HDMI inputs only.

Power: Monster HTS-3500 MkII

Delivery: The box was in pristine condition. No broken glass. So far, no observed bad pixels.

Mounting: Wall-hung (Peerless One-TP tilting mount) above an inactive fireplace with the bottom about 46 inches from the floor (height dictated by fireplace).

Viewing Distance: 10.5 feet.

Speakers: I have not attached the bottom-mounted speaker as I have a 5.1 speaker setup. So, I cannot comment on the factory speakers & amplification.

Bezel: Glossy black imparts a high-end, high-quality look and feel versus other manufacturers matte black bezels.

Black Level in a dark room: Program material blacks are imperceptible from the bezel. On widescreen DVD material, black parts of the upper & lower areas of the screen are imperceptible from the bezel. With no program material input, there is no discernable difference in the blackness of the screen versus the panel being turned-off.

Anti-Glare: In normal viewing, it is akin to the typical LCD in that there is zero perceptible reflection from even direct lighting in the room (for example, table lamps or recessed ceiling lights). With the panel off, the anti-glare is a uniform light-to-medium purple when viewing a light source from an angle. Again with the panel off: While not quite the LCD diffuse reflectivity, for a plasma the anti-glare filter is truly excellent.

Buzz: Varies in sound level but is imperceptible at normal and low listening levels. The buzz is not noticeable from my viewing distance. Rather, I am fully engaged in the entire audio-video experience.

Upconversion: The algorithm for “stretching” 4:3 material to 16:9 is better than other applications that I have seen.

Colors & Sharpness: “Movie” mode provides more accurate colors but is softer than “Optimum” mode. The latter can be attributed to the “Movie” mode’s significantly lower pre-set sharpness setting. Perhaps D-Nice can comment on the effect on color & sharpness that differences (if any) in “Pure Cinema” settings might have.

Motion Blur: Imperceptible.

High Definition Program Material Observations:

U.S. Open Golf: The color of grass was most accurate in “Movie” mode. All other modes displayed unnatural green of varying degrees. Only in “Movie” mode were brown spots on the fairway discernable. The color of Tiger’s red shirt was most accurate in “Movie” mode. All other modes displayed unnatural reds of varying degrees.

NBA Finals: The “Optimum” mode was deemed better than “Movie” mode. “Movie” mode was softer in both sharpness and brightness. “Optimum” mode provided a more realistic “bright” environment not unlike being at the actual game. For example, the reflection of the court lights off the floor was much more “real”. “Movie” mode is good. But “Optimum” mode (by a significantly larger margin) made me feel as if I was physically at the game.

MTV Unplugged – Alicia Keys: This program really demonstrates detail and contrast. The ability to discern Alicia’s black strands of hair as they vary due to movement and different lighting angles set against a glossy black piano, matte black microphone body, black-chrome wire-mesh microphone head, and shadows of the dimly-lit band demonstrates KURO technology at its best. No black crush was observed. “Movie” mode provided the most accurate colors.

MTV Unplugged – Lifehouse: In “Movie” mode, facial flesh tones remain natural & realistic against a backdrop of red and black walls. Also, the strings of small lightbulbs demonstrate the detail that this panel can display despite the “softness” of the “Movie” mode.

Modes: Based upon my limited viewing time and limited program material, I suspect that I will only be using “Movie” and “Optimum” modes. I look forward to re-reviewing the above program material using D-Nice’s final recommended settings.

6020 vs. 151 and 8G vs. 9G: It is difficult to comment as I cannot do side-by-side comparisons. However, the 6020 is so good I seriously doubt you will be disappointed (despite the pre-set modes).

Room Light sensor & Pure Cinema settings: Sorry, I have not experimented with these settings yet.

Gaming: I will not be using the 6020 for gaming.

I find interesting the recommendation for sending a 480i signal to the KURO instead of sending an upconverted 1080p signal via the Oppo DV-980H. This implies that the KURO's processing is better. Fair enough as the DV-980H's processing is inferior to the the DV-981HD's Faroudja DCDi processor and DV-983H's Anchor Bay VRS processor.

But is the KURO's processing superior to Faroudja DCDi or Anchor Bay VRS?

how do you hear it? in an earlier post, I noted that I put my head to the display itself in a BB, and I couldn't hear anything. do different displays have different buzz levels (so that the pioneer that I put my head to did not have any), or does one hear the buzz only from a certain location, or ... ??

yes, the buzz is varied among panels. some have virtually no or low buzz and others have a noticeable buzz.

the main buzz issue comes directly from the front panel and is very centered directly out from the center of the panel toward a main center seating position. if you get off that axis left right up down it reduces a good bit or completely.

due to the frequency and that directionality with almost any ambient noise in a store it would be very very hard to hear it, if that panel had an issue at all.

d dub, nice review. enjoy that new 6020.

I have a Reon equipped Integra DTR-8.8 and Toshiba A35 and I think the Kuro does a better job then them so i set the 8.8 on pass through and the A35 on 480i with sd dvd. I have very few sd dvd so it's not that big a deal, much prefer true HD content instead of that faux hd.

can i put the break in dvd on a usb thumb drive?

If pricing was the same-or a bit cheaper perhaps for the 150-which would you go for?

If pricing was the same-or a bit cheaper perhaps for the 150-which would you go for?Has anyone seen these panels side-by-side?

The 'Elite' Kuros support the "Pure" picture mode setting, which to date, renders the most realistic image of any PDP I have viewed.

The 'Elite' Kuros support the "Pure" picture mode setting, which to date, renders the most realistic image of any PDP I have viewed.

I have found the 'PURE' mode in combination with D-Nice's settings to be heaven.

It's interesting that in the high-end sets there's always something that sticks in one's craw... With the Sony XBR's its the 'clouds' issue - Uneven brightness. Very much like the buzzing with the Pioneer's, it varies from set to set from imperceptible to annoying. In both cases the manufacture states that it's within the parameters of the technology.

I went through 2 XBR's before I got one with virtually no clouds and apparently got really lucky with my 8G; no audible buzzing at all. Even when putting my ear up to the screen in a completely silent room.

A_C

I have found the 'PURE' mode in combination with D-Nice's settings to be heaven.


so perhaps the 8G Elite then?

Perhaps once Dnice's review of the 6020 comes out, he can wiegh in.

I have found the 'PURE' mode in combination with D-Nice's settings to be heaven.I agree with the first part of your statement, but regarding the 2nd part... not so much.

Is d-nice going to do a review of both the 6020 and an elite set or just the 6020?

My home theater is in the bedroom of my Manhattan apartment. The room is 13' deep, and I will sit on the bed, approximately 11-12 feet from the new 151FD.

The bedroom also contains a computer workstation (Mac), a Time-Warner DVR, an air-conditioner, several lights, and an air-filtering system, and the street I live on is very busy (86th Street).

I'm quite certain a small buzz from the monitor will not be noticeable at all.

P.S. My previous plasma, a Fujitsu 5001 from 2002, had very audible fans which never bothered me, except that I would have to turn up the sound quite loud to hear some of the dialogue.

Is d-nice going to do a review of both the 6020 and an elite set or just the 6020?

I believe only the 6020...but once its complete, he'll be able to provide his findings based on difference between sets-at least i hope he can....

I find interesting the recommendation for sending a 480i signal to the KURO instead of sending an upconverted 1080p signal via the Oppo DV-980H. This implies that the KURO's processing is better. Fair enough as the DV-980H's processing is inferior to the the DV-981HD's Faroudja DCDi processor and DV-983H's Anchor Bay VRS processor.

But is the KURO's processing superior to Faroudja DCDi or Anchor Bay VRS?

This is a good question. I've heard the same thing, but i can't help but see a noticeable difference between a 480i signal and 1080i sent from my oppo 970 to my 5080. The 1080i looks smoother, with less jaggies and more detail. I would figure the processing in the Pio would be better than a low end OPPO. I am still confused, even more so by the fact that 720p and 1080i signals from my oppo do not fill the entire screen like the 480i signal. There are a few lines at the top and more at the bottom of the screen that are not used. Any ideas?

I believe only the 6020...but once its complete, he'll be able to provide his findings based on difference between sets-at least i hope he can....

He will eventually do it for the 111 and/or the 151 Elites as well I believe.
Since he will be buying a 111 or 151 I believe.
...if not more.

I'm a happy new member of this forum, and a new owner of the 9G pro151fd, just ordered it today! thanks for all the valuable info, that made my decision easier. Also, since I work for a pioneer vendor I got employee pricing! woot.... btw, yesterday I didn't see it on the employee web-site, and today it was there, so I snatched it up! I cant wait!

thanks again, Mike:)

I believe only the 6020...but once its complete, he'll be able to provide his findings based on difference between sets-at least i hope he can....

dnice said he would be getting a pro111 next week. so i'm sure he'll put it through the breakin and then give us a nice review/settings/comparisons for it soon too.

This is a good question. I've heard the same thing, but i can't help but see a noticeable difference between a 480i signal and 1080i sent from my oppo 970 to my 5080. The 1080i looks smoother, with less jaggies and more detail. I would figure the processing in the Pio would be better than a low end OPPO. I am still confused, even more so by the fact that 720p and 1080i signals from my oppo do not fill the entire screen like the 480i signal. There are a few lines at the top and more at the bottom of the screen that are not used. Any ideas?

Gosh! I hope the processing of the 9G is better than an Oppo 981 as I bought that model only to exchange it 2 weeks later for a 980, in order to send the unaltered 480i signal through HDMI. That was following an exchange with D-Nice that started many posts about Oppo VS Kuro (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13881612#post13881612).

Since I made that decision based on an advice from D-Nice, i feel pretty confident that I made the right decision. :)

Cheers,

Pépin

Did last years 60" models have this much problem with broken screens? Could this be related to the single pane of glass feature making them more vulnerable?

:( uh oh, another 6020 was reported cracked today. the good news is that robert is getting him another one delivered asap.

D-Nice, if your'e there, do you know which preset mid color temp is hard coded into on the 6020 yet?

I find interesting the recommendation for sending a 480i signal to the KURO instead of sending an upconverted 1080p signal via the Oppo DV-980H. This implies that the KURO's processing is better. Fair enough as the DV-980H's processing is inferior to the the DV-981HD's Faroudja DCDi processor and DV-983H's Anchor Bay VRS processor.

But is the KURO's processing superior to Faroudja DCDi or Anchor Bay VRS?

I was planning on buying the Oppo once my 5020 arrives! So does it mean I don't need any special upconverting DVD player? Eventually I will get B-Ray but for now what is the recommended DVD player?

I was planning on buying the Oppo once my 5020 arrives! So does it mean I don't need any special upconverting DVD player? Eventually I will get B-Ray but for now what is the recommended DVD player?
You would need a DVD player that will send the 480i signal unaltered through HDMI. There are not many player that can do this, but the Oppo 480 is one of them.

Pépin

question:

I was planning on buying the Oppo once my 5020 arrives! So does it mean I don't need any special upconverting DVD player? Eventually I will get B-Ray but for now what is the recommended DVD player?

answer:

the "mighty" Sony PS3 (https://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665374946)

D-Nice, if your'e there, do you know which preset mid color temp is hard coded into on the 6020 yet?Mid as in 8K grayscale? That would be Performance, Game, and Standard. Sport is like Dynamic @ a 10K grayscale.

Just wondering if anyone has ever tried the Logitech z5500 speakers on a TV. They sound really good on my computer and I just got a 2nd set. Was thinking about trying it on the Kuro.

I have the Z-5500 paired with my Panasonic PT-AE900u projector. While not ideal, it works fine. For best results from the KURO be sure to use the optical output from the KURO and not the line-level outputs. Even better, connect your DVD and STB directly to the 5500 using both the coax and optical inputs.

For my KURO, I am using Infinity TSS-1200.

As far as the buzz goes, I never really noticed the buzz until I read it on this forum a hundred times. And honestly I only really notice it when my TV is turned on and I'm surfing from my laptop. It's not noticable at all once you listen to it. If someone has wood floors I can see the sound being louder but I'd be in a lot of cases people are analyzing this situation too much.

I watched CRT tubes all my life but when I met my wife we went to BB and she noticed the high pitched whine from CRTs. After I heard it I could hear it the second I walked near the TV section at BB and it drove me nuts. A month or so after it wasn't on my mind I never noticed it and don't even think about it now.

Excellent point. The KURO buzz is nothing compared to the ol' CRT whine/buzz/whistle.

I was planning on buying the Oppo once my 5020 arrives! So does it mean I don't need any special upconverting DVD player? Eventually I will get B-Ray but for now what is the recommended DVD player?


From what I've been reading, I understand that the new Pioneer will do that too. 480i via HDMI unaltered.

D-Nice thanx for answering that question about color temp. So sport is the only preset with a high color temp? I am guessing that movie is low. Will I be losing any picture detail going with standard? Is movie the only preset that gives the picture with all of it's detail? Which settings do you find to be best for standard and movie as I plan to watch a movie with the family tonight and I really want to show off what the Kuro can do.

Oh D-Nice, also, which film mode is best for 1080i directv through hdmi, smooth or advance?

D-Nice thanx for answering that question about color temp. So sport is the only preset with a high color temp? I am guessing that movie is low. Will I be losing any picture detail going with standard? Is movie the only preset that gives the picture with all of it's detail? Which settings do you find to be best for standard and movie as I plan to watch a movie with the family tonight and I really want to show off what the Kuro can do.I do not recommend Standard mode. It severely crushes black and has an s-shaped gamma curve. Reminds me of my old Panasonic 37PX60u in Dynamic mode. Performance also has a s-shaped gamma curve and crushes black...although not as much as Standard mode.

At this time the only two modes I can recommend are Movie and Optimum mode...although the latter has its own issues (non defeatable edge enhancement and an 7.5K average grayscale).

Oh D-Nice, also, which film mode is best for 1080i directv through hdmi, smooth or advance?Advance

Gosh! I hope the processing of the 9G is better than an Oppo 981 as I bought that model only to exchange it 2 weeks later for a 980, in order to send the unaltered 480i signal through HDMI. That was following an exchange with D-Nice that started many posts about Oppo VS Kuro).

Cheers,

Pépin

I asked about this in the non-Elite 9G thread, and I've seen a number of posts/questions on this in multiple threads. Maybe the topic deserves its own thread...? I'm in the same boat -- bought the Oppo 981 recently and am wondering whether to exchange it for the 980. Have a 9G coming in the next week or two, will be hooking the Oppo up directly to the tv. For what it's worth (and I took it with a grain of salt), if you talk to Oppo they insist that the 981 is the unit to buy b/c its chip set is not only superior to the 980 but upconverts much better than any tv (including Kuros). The prevailing wisdom here, on the other hand, seems to be that the 980 outputting at 480i will produce the best result (i.e., not only better than any other output mode on the 980, but better than any 981 output mode), but at least one poster (ylnad123 on the 9G non-elite thread) thought the picture looked best when his 980 outputted a 720p signal to his 9G Kuro. Looking forward to what others might think about this, particularly those with an Oppo and a Pio 9G who are able to do a comparison.

On a more general note, this is a great site! I've been lurking for a couple months and have learned a great deal. Thanks everyone!

At this time the only two modes I can recommend are Movie and Optimum mode...although the latter has its own issues (non defeatable edge enhancement and an 7.5K average grayscale).

Are you recommending these 2 modes for all source materials or mainly considering movie watching?

In other words are you suggesting for instance that you find Movie Or Optimum mode better for Games than Game Mode, and that the same modes are best whether using standard dvd, cable or blu-ray?

D-Nice, I find movie mode to be too washed out for my liking. Any way to get a picture with more richness without crushing too much black? Optimum mode looks washed out to me too. Which settings do you suggest for movie mode as far as contrast, brightness,color etc. in a moderately lit room?

Are you recommending these 2 modes for all source materials or mainly considering movie watching?

In other words are you suggesting for instance that you find Movie Or Optimum mode better for Games than Game Mode, and that the same modes are best whether using standard dvd, cable or blu-ray?
I personally will only use Movie mode. If you prefer a "cooler" grayscale use Optimum. I will never personally use Optimum mode.

dnice

i take it you could not set the rgb high and low in the SM. Thus, one would be stuck in movie mode at all times for 6500k (or close to it). Sounds like mid temp is about 7.5k.

Not only that, I would think there would be less drift from such a unit that has had some "break-in" period.

Another words, if I had a ISF calibration when the set was BRAND new, I would think there would be more of a drift issue then say if I had the set calibrated after a few months us constant use.

Does that sound about right?

Bingo :)

D-Nice, does this infer that one should get periodic ISF calibrations throughout the life of the panel? This, due to the aging of the phosphors?

D-Nice, I find movie mode to be too washed out for my liking. Any way to get a picture with more richness without crushing too much black? Optimum mode looks washed out to me too. Which settings do you suggest for movie mode as far as contrast, brightness,color etc. in a moderately lit room?Movie mode has an average gamma of 2.3. I cannot see how that can be considered "washed out". You may want to get a calibration disc and see if you need to adjust the brightness.

My reference settings are listed in Post #1 of the non-Elite 9G Kuro thread.

dnice

i take it you could not set the rgb high and low in the SM. Thus, one would be stuck in movie mode at all times for 6500k (or close to it). Sounds like mid temp is about 7.5k.I have access to the "Integrator Menu". There are no RGB controls in that menu.

Movie mode has an 6350 average grayscale.

D-Nice, does this infer that one should get periodic ISF calibrations throughout the life of the panel? This, due to the aging of the phosphors?
Yes...probably every 1-2K hours of use.

personally i think that stinks - this is a $5500 - not a $599 tv - so, absolutely no calibration on the 5020 or 6020!!!!!!!

its pioneers way or the highway!!!!

I have access to the "Integrator Menu". There are no RGB controls in that menu.

Movie mode has an 6350 average grayscale.

dnice said he would be getting a pro111 next week. so i'm sure he'll put it through the breakin and then give us a nice review/settings/comparisons for it soon too.

sweet..im having trouble deciding between the two and i want to get one asap so i can break it in. i'm waiting impatiently for his reviews haha

D-Nice, how do I get into the integrator menu? What can I adjust once inside?

Also, what video settings should I use if I must use performance mode? Is there a way to view in this preset without crushing too much black? How much less does performance crush than standard?

I second that! Every time I went into Harvey's off 5th Avenue they look at me like vultures calculating how hard they can rape my wallet.
First few times I went in wearing a suit, they were all over me. Next few times I came in on a weekend wearing a t-shirt and khakis), I was left alone to do my browsing and playing with the picture settings.
That's how I got my pro-1130 over 2 years ago. Play there, buy elsewhere!
Lesson learned.

Harvey is closed. Whether they relocated or closed down I don't know. But the store is closed and the site is up for lease. I passed by there last week.

Harvey is closed. Whether they relocated or closed down I don't know. But the store is closed and the site is up for lease. I passed by there last week.

You're right about the 45th Street store, but not the one in ABC Home on Broadway. I was there this week.

You're right about the 45th Street store, but not the one in ABC Home on Broadway. I was there this week.

I didn't realize they had another store in the city. Perhaps I'll check it out at some point.

I believe they are exactly the same panel, except that they've gone through more rigorous QA at the factory (or was that for the signature series only?). Anyway, the Elite are the same hardware, (much) better software. Whether it's worth it or not is up to you. For me it wasn't worth the extra money (extra extra money here in Canadia), so I'm getting a 6020.

In the 8G sets there was a physical difference. A different screen filter on the Elites which supposedly made for somewhat deeper blacks. That info came from an Ultimate AV review of the 6010.

In the 8G sets there was a physical difference. A different screen filter on the Elites which supposedly made for somewhat deeper blacks. That info came from an Ultimate AV review of the 6010.
The non-Elite and Elite's PDP glass panel is different. For the 9Gs the non-Elites PDP model number is 509F/609F while the Elites have 509F-E/609F-E. The also have different part numbers within Pioneer.

D-Nice, how do I get into the integrator menu? What can I adjust once inside?
There is only a UART setting you can see. Nothing else is available.

I've been a member for a little while, but never posted before (never needed to, as the intelligent individuals on the forum always ask the questions I'm thinking of asking, and the proper response is always given). Anyways, I just got my 5020 today from Robert and Wendy at ****************. Perfect condition, not a single dead pixel. Truly classy people @ ****************, wonderful customer service and a pleasure to purchase my first plasma from (I've previously had a RP and currently have an LCD). Thank you everybody on the forum for all their valuable information and insights, and thanks to russwong and D-Nice as well for all their info. I'll be looking forward to your review tomorrow D-Nice!

~Clint

There is only a UTART setting you can see. Nothing else is available.


Damn...Pioneer sure pulled one over this time...Can you imagine getting into the service menu anticipating fine tunning your set only to have Pioneer call U a TART.:eek:

The non-Elite and Elite's PDP glass panel is different. For the 9Gs the non-Elites PDP model number is 509F/609F while the Elites have 509F-E/609F-E. The also have different part numbers within Pioneer.

This is just the different color filter the elite has that enables Pioneer to say they are different like the 8G or are we talking about other differences.

What is utart and what does it do?

will this menu tell me how many hours I have on the panel? If not is there another way to find this out?

aconiteraser, congrats on the purchase! I, too, came from an LCD to the 9g Pioneer. I hope you enjoy the upgrade as much as I have already!

will this menu tell me how many hours I have on the panel? If not is there another way to find this out?No and not right now

Damn...Pioneer sure pulled one over this time...Can you imagine getting into the service menu anticipating fine tunning your set only to have Pioneer call U a TART.:eek:It's actually called UART. Typo

There is only a UART setting you can see. Nothing else is available.
Will there still be a SM that only authorized pioneer techs can get into? If not, is the xx20's even worth getting calibrated? Thanks!

No and not right now
Are you saying there is still hope!?

D-Nice, I also noticed that when the camera pans on advance mode, everything jerks from left to right, but in smooth mode, it pans fluidly. What benefits does advance have over smooth. Does the jerking come as an expense to achieve another positive effect in which I am missing?

This is just the different color filter the elite has that enables Pioneer to say they are different like the 8G or are we talking about other differences.The bonded filter makes it a completely different PDP module.

Sure the substrate glass is the same...ditto on the cell structure, but they are only a portion of the PDP module.

D-Nice, I also noticed that when the camera pans on advance mode, everything jerks from left to right, but in smooth mode, it pans fluidly. What benefits does advance have over smooth. Does the jerking come as an expense to achieve another positive effect in which I am missing?Advance is for film based material. if you see severe jerking on film based material, then it's source related.

Smooth mode uses frame interpolation. If it floats your boat, use it.

I have access to the "Integrator Menu". There are no RGB controls in that menu.

Movie mode has an 6350 average grayscale.
What was the average grey scale for the 5010 with your reference settings before and after your SM adjustments?

I have access to the "Integrator Menu". There are no RGB controls in that menu.

Movie mode has an 6350 average grayscale.


So with the XX20 series we have a 6350K avg grayscale and 2.3 gamma in movie mode? That actually is pretty good. I guess it would still lean a little more warm/yellowish than a XX10 series that uses the mid color temp and was calibrated to 6500K correct? D-Nice... I know you recommend to usually turn off the NR settings on the 8G series. Have you visually noticed any reduction in detail or measured anything that would be the product of the XX20 series always having the NR feature ON and not being able to turn off. I really wish Pioneer would have used the Performance setting on the XX20 series to give us a 6500K greyscale with the MID color temp and also a 2.5 gamma.:) Thanks again for all your hard work D-Nice.

Will there still be a SM that only authorized pioneer techs can get into?Can't answer this yet.

If not, is the xx20's even worth getting calibrated? Thanks!If the SM RGB controls are non-existent, you can't calibrate a non-Elite to D65. Movie mode has a grayscale of 6350 out of the box....and it looks damn good. FAR better than the 8G's Movie mode (minus SM RGB changes).

What was the average grey scale for the 5010 with your reference settings before and after your SM adjustments?

His reference settings with low color temp gave a 6000K greyscale with the XX10 series and entering the service menu and making offset adjustments with the mid color temp would get you to 6500K. People really enjoy this because it removes that warm/reddish/yellowish tint the reference settings produced with low temp. Correct me if I am wrong D-Nice.

kurochickensoup, the smooth setting will sometimes cause a little bit more "video" type look for movies, which a lot of people agree doesn't look quite right. The "smooth" setting also will create some unwanted artifacting (sometimes) if the panning isn't done 100% correctly.

Not quite sure how "Advanced" works, but it improves on the motion of the film while leaving some of the 24fps jutter that's inherent for the majority of movies.

What was the average grey scale for the 5010 with your reference settings before and after your SM adjustments?6K before and D65 after.

When you say film based does that mean like an HD movie on Directv DVR or something else? And if you do mean that, if it's the source why does it jerk only on advance?

So with the XX20 series we have a 6350K avg grayscale and 2.3 gamma in movie mode?Yes

I guess it would still lean a little more warm/yellowish than a XX10 series that uses the mid color temp and was calibrated to 6500K correct?Yes...easily seen on window and full field white test patterns, but barely noticeable on regular content.

D-Nice... I know you recommend to usually turn off the NR settings on the 8G series. Have you visually noticed any reduction in detail or measured anything that would be the product of the XX20 series always having the NR feature ON and not being able to turn off.Nope, nothing yet

I have to ask now: am I reading your comment correctly? NO RGB controls on the non-Elite Kuros??? Is that true?

Yours,

DavidI don't want to say yes nor do I want to say no. No one @ Pioneer wants to give that info up right now and my main contact is MIA.

When you say film based does that mean like an HD movie on Directv DVR or something else? Could be from any source.

And if you do mean that, if it's the source why does it jerk only on advance?If it is only doing it on Advance, then your source is sending the panel a poorly flagged signal.

I have yet to see jerking on any film based content.

I don't want to say yes nor do I want to say no. No one @ Pioneer wants to give that info up right now and my main contact is MIA.

Thanks, D-Nice.

I deleted my post because I saw that it was redundant, but I do appreciate all your work on this and I'll be keeping a close eye on the question of what settings are available to amateur calibrators. I mean, buzzing, shmuzzing, but this right here is an important matter for me. It could make the difference in choosing between an Elite and a non-Elite.

Yours,

David

Thank you very much D-NICE, and Aetherhole. I appreciate your help.

DOES ANYONE HAVE A 9G THAT DOES NOT 'BUZZ'???

Page 119 of the 5020/6020 Manual states:

Panel sounds/noises: Some sounds are appropriate for plasma technology.
Examples: fan motor noise, electrical circuit humming, glass panel buzzing, etc.

D-nice,

I agree movie mode is great. When I watching content where I need a little more punch or whiter whites, I have found Game mode with some adjustments the most watchable. I do not like the edge enhancements in optimum.

Can you tell me what is wrong with game mode and what are the best settings for that mode?

Thank you very much for all your knowledge!

D-nice,

I agree movie mode is great. When I watching content where I need a little more punch or whiter whites, I have found Game mode with some adjustments the most watchable. I do not like the edge enhancements in optimum.

Can you tell me what is wrong with game mode and what are the best settings for that mode?

Thank you very much for all your knowledge!Game mode has an 8K+ grayscale. Here are some "ok" settings with that mode:

Picture:
AV Selection: Game
Contrast: 30
Brightness: 0
Color: -4
Tint: R4
Sharpness: -15

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Advance
Text Optimization: Off



Power Save Mode: Off

D-Nice, does this infer that one should get periodic ISF calibrations throughout the life of the panel? This, due to the aging of the phosphors?

Yes...probably every 1-2K hours of use.

D-Nice: Its well understood that your recommended 6020 settings will be post 150-hour Evangelos' Break-In DVD. But how long will your settings be valid for? That is until how many total viewing hours? All this begs the question, should recommended settings be "tiered" for total viewing hours?

Thanks D-nice!

I gave them a try and it still doesn't come close to movie mode quality overall, but I just wanted some settings while watching content that whites are dominant, like hockey. If you have any better suggestions for that type of viewing it would be much appreciated. Otherwise, thanks again for your time!

But how long will your settings be valid for? That is until how many total viewing hours?Due to current lack of access to RGB controls, these settings should never have to be changed beyond the brightness setting.

All this begs the question, should recommended settings be "tiered" for total viewing hours?Not for the non-Elites.

thanks again for your time!Anytime :)