Just realized that I had been breaking-in on "Wide" instead of "Full." Not sure how long I was set up that way; although I'm being pretty strict with break-in, I've messed around with the settings a few times to do some testing.

Content had still been filling the screen---is this anything I need to worry about? I'm about 1/3 of the way through break-in.

This break-in paranoia is KILLING me. :eek: I can't wait to actually watch my set and relax. . .Plus, the wife is mocking me. :) She's using break-in disc to pretend to decide what colors to repaint the wall, and she's (jokingly) threatening to move the 5020 from room to room to assess the color scheme of the whole condo. . .

Thanks!

This break-in paranoia is KILLING me. :eek: I can't wait to actually watch my set and relax. . .Plus, the wife is mocking me. :) She's using break-in disc to pretend to decide what colors to repaint the wall, and she's (jokingly) threatening to move the 5020 from room to room to assess the color scheme of the whole condo. . .

Thanks!


LOL Hilarious!

D-Nice,

will you still have your 6020 when you do your 111 review???

It would be GREAT to see the Elite face off against the non-Elite (as well as the other panles) in all the categories you gave reviews on for the 6020, and then maybe you could give a conclusion with more of your personal thoughts about this year's lineup.

Just realized that I had been breaking-in on "Wide" instead of "Full." Not sure how long I was set up that way; although I'm being pretty strict with break-in, I've messed around with the settings a few times to do some testing.

Content had still been filling the screen---is this anything I need to worry about? I'm about 1/3 of the way through break-in.

This break-in paranoia is KILLING me. :eek: I can't wait to actually watch my set and relax. . .Plus, the wife is mocking me. :) She's using break-in disc to pretend to decide what colors to repaint the wall, and she's (jokingly) threatening to move the 5020 from room to room to assess the color scheme of the whole condo. . .

Thanks!Good for her. ixnay (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ixnay) on the break-in DVD, just watch as much full screen content as possible.

Thank you for the review, d-nice.

"The apparent (unconfirmed, I know, but my unhappy suspicions are growing) absence of CMS controls and even just the basic RGB and gamma controls in the service menu is a total deal-breaker for me."

This quote is to important to be forgotten. If this is true, I will not buy Pioneer. Although it would be strange if those control was absent. Especially for a ISF-calibrator.....:eek:

Robert

It still boils down to the 9g Kuro with setting very slightly off from what we think they should be looked better than the Panasonic that was calibrated to meet those targets.

As much as a perfectionist as I tend to be, I want it to look best....not necessarily what meets target measurements.

D-Nice,

will you still have your 6020 when you do your 111 review???

It would be GREAT to see the Elite face off against the non-Elite (as well as the other panles) in all the categories you gave reviews on for the 6020, and then maybe you could give a conclusion with more of your personal thoughts about this year's lineup.

+1

I have Dish Network, and frankly, the picture quality is pretty bad. The smaller the TV the better it will look. :(

Must explain why my Dish HD looks so good on my Panny 37PD25. I will probably be in for a rude awakening when it gets replaced with a Pioneer 111FD.

Great question. However I don't know the answer just yet. I'm going to check this screen size theory with the 111FD.

Perhaps it might be possible to position the 6020 farther away from you than the 111FD, so that the units subtend an identical viewing angle.

Thanks D-Nice :)

I find this interesting:

"Dynamic Mode
By all means, STAY AWAY from this mode!!!!!!!"

This is the only Mode the xx20 has that the Elite does not ... one would think it was added for a reason :confused:

Are you talking about the 9G only as Dynamic was definitely in the 8G elite. I
kinda hope they got rid of it because it was really pointless.

I am quoting the 9G pdf's:

6020
Picture Settings
A/V Selection Memory – 7 options for viewing preferences:
››Optimum / Dynamic / Performance / Movie / Sports / Game / Standard (PC input: only for Standard)

151
ELITE Picture Settings
A/V Selection Memory – 10 options for viewing preferences:
››Optimum / Performance / Sports / Movie / PURE / Game / Standard / ISF-Day / ISF-Night / ISF-Auto (PC input: only Standard)

It still boils down to the 9g Kuro with setting very slightly off from what we think they should be looked better than the Panasonic that was calibrated to meet those targets.

As much as a perfectionist as I tend to be, I want it to look best....not necessarily what meets target measurements.

Hi JimP,

Absolutely right. As with the 8Gs, Pioneer's stiffest competition this year looks to be Pioneer itself (w/the Elites). I mean, what else is supposed to go up against one of these 9Gs? A (*snicker*) Sony XBR8?? I own one of those locally dimmed LCD sets (Samsung 4081F) and, having seen it up against a lowly non-Elite 8G, I say with firm conviction these things are no kind of competition for the Kuros.

D-Nice was no cheerleader in his review: where he saw problems he laid them out and he laid them out with great clarity. But before anyone turns Nervous Nellie on this thread, we should keep in mind that he also said:

(1) the set's factory calibrations are, on the whole, very close to reference in Movie mode, and;

(2) even with the grayscale a bit off from D65, the gamma averaging ~2.3, and the color space stretched some distance beyond REC 709, the 6020's picture beats even his own calibrated 8G when using high-definition sources. We all know what D-Nice's standards are like and what he thinks of the 8Gs, so that really is a remarkable, remarkable statement.

He also said (and this really caught my attention):

(3) the 6020 is able to get brighter than the 8Gs. Sure, that's not the same as having the full 10 lumen tech, but it sure is an encouraging thing to see. You can bet I'll be going to a Magnolia store to get a look at these sets sometime in the near future (not to buy, though--I strongly prefer to support one of the forum sponsors).

I sincerely hope that no 5020/6020 owner starts to second guess himself or herself on account of my silly paranoia. I honestly am nervous about the apparent dearth of SM controls, but remember we still just do not know if they are in there or not. D-Nice does not yet have the code needed to enter all regions of the menu. Until he does, my fingernail-chewing fears are just noise in the void--ignore me.

Yours,

David

D-Nice,

In regards to Robert's comment that a SA 8300 HD should be connected to the Pioneer via component, did you have your SA 8300 connected via HDMI or Component? Which do you prefer?I prefer and only use HDMI.

It's been said many times but great review D-Nice! The review was very professional looking and flowed very good.Thanks for the kind words.

I know that with a signal 9Gs are near infinite contrast, and I know letter box black levels blend in the darkness, but how close are "dim" scenes to reaching perfect blacks?There is still a glow, but it is very subtle. It's very much like the best consumer CRTs....without the floating blacks.

BTW, the 8G has been sold and I'll likely buy a 9G this week :D.Congrats. I think you will like the 9Gs more than your 8G :)

D-Nice,
I gotta say, your review was a whole lot better than I expected. I expected
it to be overly technical and stuff, but you were to the point and yet had so
much information/insight. Thanks for the review. I gotta say, my views on
the 6020 has changed quite a bit after reading it. I still want my 141, but I
sure do think the 6020 will do well in stores like BB and such.

PS - I forgot to mention, I liked your review a whole lot better than the
professional ones. I can't wait for your comments on the Elite later. Heh,
I'm sure you just about sold that 6020 that was donated with that review. :)Thanks for the kind words.

D-Nice, is the movie mode also the dimmest of all the presets?No Game mode is.

I find the Cinema mode on the new Panny's rather dull and yellow, just wondering how the movie mode on the 6020 compares.The 800u replaces Cinema mode with THX mode so I cannot really comment on this part of your post.

Any chance you'll publish a similar review of your 1150? You have all the data. I have an interest since I can find a new one below 3k.We will see ;)

D-nice, thanks for the review of the 6020.

Do you recommend leaving the "Room Light Sensor" on or off?I normally leave it off. However, it does come in handy when I don't want to constantly fiddle with settings.

Hi JimP,

Absolutely right. As with the 8Gs, Pioneer's stiffest competition this year looks to be Pioneer itself (w/the Elites). I mean, what else is supposed to go up against one of these 9Gs? A (*snicker*) Sony XBR8?? I own one of those locally dimmed LCD sets (Samsung 4081F) and, having seen it up against a lowly non-Elite 8G, I say with firm conviction these things are no kind of competition for the Kuros.

D-Nice was no cheerleader in his review: where he saw problems he laid them out and he laid them out with great clarity. But before anyone turns Nervous Nellie on this thread, we should keep in mind that he also said:

(1) the set's factory calibrations are, on the whole, very close to reference in Movie mode, and;

(2) even with the grayscale a bit off from D65, the gamma averaging ~2.3, and the color space stretched some distance beyond REC 709, the 6020's picture beats even his own calibrated 8G when using high-definition sources. We all know what D-Nice's standards are like and what he thinks of the 8Gs, so that really is a remarkable, remarkable statement.

He also said (and this really caught my attention):

(3) the 6020 is able to get brighter than the 8Gs. Sure, that's not the same as having the full 10 lumen tech, but it sure is an encouraging thing to see. You can bet I'll be going to a Magnolia store to get a look at these sets sometime in the near future (not to buy, though--I strongly prefer to support one of the forum sponsors).

I sincerely hope that no 5020/6020 owner starts to second guess himself or herself on account of my silly paranoia. I honestly am nervous about the apparent dearth of SM controls, but remember we still just do not know if they are in there or not. D-Nice does not yet have the code needed to enter all regions of the menu. Until he does, my fingernail-chewing fears are just noise in the void--ignore me.

Yours,

David


As a new 6020 Owner, I for one would never second guess my own eyes. While I agree with some of D-Nice's comments on the panels short commings, it's still by far the best panel I've ever owned. Nothing since my first HD TV, a 34" CRT, nearly a half dozen years ago has reproduced that same "WOW" of seeing your first HD broadcast. Four differen't plasmas since then and only the 6020 has matched and passed that first "WOW".

I wonder if the fit n' finish as you stated took a hit but would be improved in the Elites. What about the fit and finish would say took a hit?The fit and finish feels cheaper compared to the 6010FD. The bezel doesn't have the same quality feel like the 6010FD's bezel. It feels like a hybrid of the 5080 and 5010.....plastic feel of the 5080HD but made from acrylic like the 6010FD.

I normally leave it off. However, it does come in handy when I don't want to constantly fiddle with settings.

Thank you for that great review. Have you changed your Ref-settings since break-in?

D-Nice,

will you still have your 6020 when you do your 111 review??? Yes.

It would be GREAT to see the Elite face off against the non-Elite (as well as the other panles) in all the categories you gave reviews on for the 6020, and then maybe you could give a conclusion with more of your personal thoughts about this year's lineup.Already in the works :)

Hello D-Nice,

When you say that you found SD a little bit soft compared to the other sets you compared them to, was the sharpness setting all the way down or was it at default ? What happens if you turn it up, do artifacts present themselves ?
Thanks for the great review !!

Perhaps it might be possible to position the 6020 farther away from you than the 111FD, so that the units subtend an identical viewing angle.I have 30 feet worth of space to position between myself and the 6020FD. Regardless of distance, the 1150HD just looked better with SD content. Of course at a certain distance details begin to disappear on all sets, but I was just pointing out a weakness that the 6010 presented.

From the PDP-6020FD manual, page 111:

Quote:
Note: When signals are input from the HDMI terminals, no signals are output from the DIGITAL OUT terminal if they are copy guarded.

To set the DIGITAL OUT terminal (OPTICAL) for your AV Receiver, follow the steps below.
Access the System Setup through the Setup.
Select Digital Audio Output from the System Setup menu.
Select an option from the submenu.
Dolby Digital outputs in Dolby Digital for the Dolby format and
outputs in PCM for the PCM format (default)
PCM outputs in the PCM format regardless of signal type


What is the meaning of that first sentence? Does it mean that copy-protected HDMI content won't output a signal through the TV's digital output even if the menu is set to PCM? I assume "PCM" here means a standard 2-channel LPCM signal, so why won't the TV output that? I thought the point of copy protection is to protect the full-resolution digital content, not a downmixed low-resolution signal. I believe (but I could be mistaken) that any blu-ray player will output 2-channel LPCM though an S/PDIF output if you ask it to. So why not the TV?

It's actually an important feature for me to get a downmixed 2-channel PCM signal from my TV with all content. The Samsung and Panasonic TVs I'm looking at don't have this menu selection and will always output Dolby Digital from ATSC broadcast signals. It sounds like Pioneer can do PCM with that menu setting, but I want to make sure I also get PCM from my HDMI sources, also.

Can anyone shed some light on this?
Good questions. I was a bit confused by this as well when reading the manual. Here's hoping someone more knowledgable will chime in to comment...

Thank you for that great review. Have you changed your Ref-settings since break-in?I just backed off the color to -5. Everything else is the same.

Hello D-Nice,

When you say that you found SD a little bit soft compared to the other sets you compared them to, was the sharpness setting all the way down or was it at default ? What happens if you turn it up, do artifacts present themselves ?
Thanks for the great review !!I have the sharpness at -15 which gets rid of all edge enhancement. I did not attempt to increase the sharpness as one should not have to.....and I've never done it on my 1150HD for SD content.

D-Nice, great review. I'm wondering on the SD performance side, how much of this was due to comparing a 60" screen with two 50" screens? As you well know SD can't take a whole lot of 'enlargement', and I'm wondering if it wasn't at a disadvanatge because of that.

Great question. However I don't know the answer just yet. I'm going to check this screen size theory with the 111FD.

FWIW, I was in vacation in Hilton Head, SC about a month ago and compared the 720p 50" Elite to the Samsung 81 series in the Magnolia store in BB. The 1080p 50" Elite was also next to the 720p 50" Elite (don't recall the model numbers). I went through the user menu and mirrored both settings with you mainly your settings and I left thinking the 720p picture actually looked a little better than the 1080p picture in that setting(as well as looking better than the 81;)). The 720p version was a little brighter and with that content had a sharper picture as well.

My guess is with your Elite being 720p combined with the fact that the 6020 is a larger screen is likely why the 6020's picture looked softer on SD material.

From the PDP-6020FD manual, page 111:

What is the meaning of that first sentence?It means that you should not expect to connect a BD player, per HDMI, to your PDP and then send sound from your PDP to your A/V receiver thru the optical out. You will only be able to pass sound thru the optical out port with the HMG, a personal camcorder and coax input (ATSC/NTSC signal).

The fit and finish feels cheaper compared to the 6010FD. The bezel doesn't have the same quality feel like the 6010FD's bezel. It feels like a hybrid of the 5080 and 5010.....plastic feel of the 5080HD but made from acrylic like the 6010FD.

How did the 1140 compare? We returned one because the "warped" shiny plastic made my wife crazy(er) :)


bob

I have 30 feet worth of space to position between myself and the 6020FD. Regardless of distance, the 1150HD just looked better with SD content. Of course at a certain distance details begin to disappear on all sets, but I was just pointing out a weakness that the 6010 presented.

Do you ever post pics? It would have been fun to document visually, too?


bob

Thanks for the great review, D-NICE.

I have a few questions.

You have no mention of the "Room Light Sensor" setting in your review.

Did you have it on or off during your review ?

Do you recommend it to be on or off ?

Would having it 'on' improves the picture quality of all the A/V mode ?

I believe having it 'on' would improve PQ since the TV would lower the contrast and brightness in a dark room.
This would reduce over-saturation and reduce the black crushes.

Please look into this and correct me if I am wrong.


Thanks,
KL

d-nice, that was a brilliant review. lots of things in there i hadn't noticed.

As for the SD TV viewing and the poor picture quality, did you by any chance do a comparison between component and HDMI (I know you prefer HDMI)? This is a newbie question, but are the problems you noticed with TV viewing related to the 3:2 pulldown process?

D-Nice. That was a great review.
I am following along just in case I cannot resist upgrading before the bigger panels arrive.

A friend of mine will be ordering the 151 and I was wondering about the blotching. Is this a minor artifact that can rarely seen?

- Rich

Do you ever post pics? It would have been fun to document visually, too?


bobComparision pictures? Nope. They are not very objective....especially when trying to capture content on 3 screens bearing different dynamic ranges.

D-Nice. That was a great review.
I am following along just in case I cannot resist upgrading before the bigger panels arrive.

A friend of mine will be ordering the 151 and I was wondering about the blotching. Is this a minor artifact that can rarely seen?

- RichBlotching can only be seen on a blank (0% stimuli) screen. It's not even visible on low APL scenes.

How did the 1140 compare? We returned one because the "warped" shiny plastic made my wife crazy(er) :)


bobThe 1140s bezel has the same fit and finish as my 1150s. Both are plastic and the 6020FD's bezel is superior.

One thing I forgot to mention in the review is the fact that the remote sensor on the 6020FD is MUCH improved compared to my 1150 and any 8G/7G Pioneer. It responds as well as my old 1130.

As for the SD TV viewing and the poor picture quality, did you by any chance do a comparison between component and HDMI (I know you prefer HDMI)?Nope. I'll squeeze that into my 111FD review.

This is a newbie question, but are the problems you noticed with TV viewing related to the 3:2 pulldown process?No. It's a 1080p, screen size, or noise reduction issue. I'll do further tests when I get the 111FD.

I sincerely hope that no 5020/6020 owner starts to second guess himself or herself on account of my silly paranoia.

If you're an owner of the set your own eyes should eliminate all 2nd guessing. Last night for instance I played the hd dvd of Pride & Prejudice on the 6020 and found the Picture nothing short of stunning.

I've played that disk on my various hdtvs and even though it's looks great on my 70" JVC LCOS and has great natural color on my 57" Hitachi CRT neither of them look close to this disk on the 6020. It's almost like a new movie. There's no 2nd guessing your own eyes on that image.

So far I've seen a few SD DVD (played from PS3) and SD cable (FiOS) channels and found that sometimes SD can look spectacular, at other times and on some scenes I can see the softness. I play this material also on the 70" LCOS and it does well so I cannot write it off to the size alone. Not sure yet what modes and screen size settings are best for SD yet on this set.

Blotching can only be seen on a blank (0% stimuli) screen. It's not even visible on low APL scenes.

I actually see it on full white screens (break-in DVD) as well, although it's hard to determine whether it's my eyes or actually in the panel. It does seem to have reduced in the 30 hours or so I've run the DVD so far.

I'm going to run it out to 150 hours and try some actual content and see whether I notice any picture anomalies before I decide whether or not to return the panel.

I do think the 6020 A/V modes are more usable than what D-Nice's reviews might indicate and will not personally be as completely stuck to the great movie mode as he might indicate. I see some purdy images on most of the A/V settings just depending on what the source material is.

For instance if you ever walked into a retail floor under lighting and thought to yourself that a certain Panasonic or Samsung Plasma or even an LCD looked better on the floor than a kuro you might want to try a few of the brighter Kuro settings to get the same effect, perhaps even better than owning one of those panels.

D-Nice,

How good is the color decoder on Panasonic's 800 series?

D Nice mentioned the buzzing of the 8G's as a known issue! I have posted questions about this issue with no feedback concerning my FD150 unit.

So this is a confirmed known issue?

Is there a fix?

Does the 151 have this issue corrected?

My 150 was getting replaced with the last new 150 the store had and it showed up buzzing and had nickel sized circle near center screen of dead pixels! So it went back DoA

I'll send you some tomorrow.


Standard Mode settings? Great, I look forward to them.


1080i/p

That's what I thought. So basically Dot By Dot should be the preferred screen size for any 1080 source signals and you also reccommend orbiter mode-2 in this setting correct?


It's still hard for me to fathom this conclusion. However, it's the truth based on what I saw.

Perhaps "Creamy Smoothness" is not something that easily translates into numbers but as with you my eyes can certainly see it.

Hopefully the blotching will be minimized, if not eradicated, in later production batches...which was suppose to be done already (Pioneer!?!?!?!).

The blotching is wierd and can only be seen as a defect that an owner has to live with. Fortunately it's no interference to actual content viewing.

Nope. I'll squeeze that into my 111FD review.

No. It's a 1080p, screen size, or noise reduction issue. I'll do further tests when I get the 111FD.

When do you think you'll be getting the 111? (most likely the model I will be ordering soon, would like to see a review before pulling the trigger) Are you getting the 111 because you cant afford the 151? ( sorry couldnt resist ;) )

Is there anything in the Elite feature set that would lead you to believe that it will handle SD content better?

p.s. Thanks alot for the review, it was worth the wait. :D

It's not wrong. But with every source going through the receiver, you lose the ability to have different settings for each source. That's a big penalty, IMO. Defeats the purpose of having 4 HDMI inputs.

Or you can just leave it in movie mode.

are there going to be two different kinds of sig. models?

Or you can just leave it in movie mode.

If you want to have the same setting for every source: brightness, contrast, film mode, etc.

D-NICE

Thank you sir. That was very helpful!

It's not wrong. But with every source going through the receiver, you lose the ability to have different settings for each source. That's a big penalty, IMO. Defeats the purpose of having 4 HDMI inputs.

HDTV's should have at least 1 HDMI output so you can send the sound to a receiver. As it stands, if you want HD sound you need to go to the receiver first, which should be unnecessary and kinda complicated to grasp to newbies.

Both of these questions address the same dilemma I was/am having. Because HDMI is the only way to pass the new HD audio codecs, I am going to run all devices capable of HD audio through the receiver (blu ray). Then I may try to run a couple components straight to the TV as long as I figure out a way to switch through all sources with relative ease.

It is my understanding that the "standard" picture mode is the only mode that can be saved with a unique set of settings for each input. The settings for every other picture mode will remain universal to all inputs. So besides customizing standard mode, if you only run one cable from your AVR to TV, you will have to switch picture modes manually for each input.

Here is a more complicated question: If you program a Harmony One to do all of your component switching through the AVR, is it possible to program macros into it that will change the picture mode over the same input to the TV?

The HD Cable performance section of D-Nice's review worries me a bit. Most of my viewing would be from the HD cable box, not from Blu-ray. I do have a Motorola box with Comcast, so I don't know if that will make a difference. HD content from the cable boxlooks great on my 34" CRT HDTV, and I'm worried that it will look much worse and have artifacts on the 5020. :(

HD Cable Performance
The 6020FD presented 1080i/720p in the same fashion as HD DVD and BD presentations except
that it showed me every single thing that was wrong with the compressed HD signals that
broadcasters are shoving down our throats. Although the 6020FD was capable of showing the
tiniest bits of details in static 1080i images, moving scenes were riddled with macroblocking and
other picture artifacts. Dot‐by dot mode reduced some of these artifacts. However, it failed to
give me the same pristine picture my 1150HD was simultaneously showing. The 50PZ800u
weathered the same issues as the 6020FD. I guess 1300 compressed lines of resolution from a
SA8300HD cable box doesn’t bold well on 1080p displays.

No. It's a 1080p, screen size, or noise reduction issue. I'll do further tests when I get the 111FD.
The resampling process to go from 480->1080 has a built-in amount of "blurring" or "sharpening". What you see depends on the resampling filters Pioneer engineers chose to use. I'm sure part of what you saw is the difference between doing 480->768 and doing 480->1080. It could also be a slight algorithm tweak Pioneer did for the 9G sets so the default is "smoother" or something. It could also be an Elite/non-Elite thing.

Don't be 100% averse to using that sharpness control when viewing a 480 signal. I wouldn't be surprised if it makes the picture sharper without using "edge enhancement", to a point. They could easily tweak the resampling filters to add some sharpness before resorting to a poorer sharpening post-process. There's no way to know without trying it.

Of course, this is also a perfect place for Pioneer to differentiate the Elite sets. The Elite models may have a "better" SD picture simply because they chose to use a slightly sharper upscaling filter. You might be able to equalize them (if there's a difference) using the sharpness control or you might not. I don't know.

- LoopinFool

D-nice, will your 111fd review be applicable to a 151fd?

D-nice, thanks for the review of the 6020.

Do you recommend leaving the "Room Light Sensor" on or off?

I normally leave it off. However, it does come in handy when I don't want to constantly fiddle with settings.

D-Nice,

What does the "Room Light Sensor" adjust? More than just the brightness? Are the adjustments linear or logarithmic or something else?

D Nice mentioned the buzzing of the 8G's as a known issue! I have posted questions about this issue with no feedback concerning my FD150 unit.

So this is a confirmed known issue?

Is there a fix?

Does the 151 have this issue corrected?

My 150 was getting replaced with the last new 150 the store had and it showed up buzzing and had nickel sized circle near center screen of dead pixels! So it went back DoA

No one has probably answered you because the issue has been discussed ad nauseum in several threads and people are probably tired of debating each other over the issue.

There is an entire thread devoted to the issue (Kuro 8G Buzz Poll).

The buzz from the front panel is a consequence of the single glass design that Pioneer uses and delivers the beautiful picture. It is not something that is likely to get 'fixed' without a fundamental design change.

As I mentioned, there has been endless debate over whether the probelm is more noticable with specific sets, home setups, ambient noise, or consumer's ears.

I personally do not expect the problem to be any better or worse with the 9Gs and the early reports on the 5020s would seem to confirm that. I, however, wouldn't choose another TV with an inferior picture 100% of the time to avoid hearing a buzz 1% of the time.

I personally do not expect the problem to be any better or worse with the 9Gs and the early reports on the 5020s would seem to confirm that. I, however, wouldn't choose another TV with an inferior picture 100% of the time to avoid hearing a buzz 1% of the time.

Good point here. The #'s are still low IMO time will tell

D-nice, will your 111fd review be applicable to a 151fd?Yes

D-Nice,

What does the "Room Light Sensor" adjust? More than just the brightness? Are the adjustments linear or logarithmic or something else?With all modes except Optimum, the room light sensor tweaks the contrast and brightness per your room's ambient lighting.

D-NICE

Thank you sir. That was very helpful!:)

D-Nice, can you elaborate on the "blotching" that you speak of?

D-nice, will your 111fd review be applicable to a 151fd?

D-NICE this would be even better lol

I have 30 feet worth of space to position between myself and the 6020FD. Regardless of distance, the 1150HD just looked better with SD content.

your review also seemed to suggest the 1150HD looked better with compressed HD content via cable--is that right, or did I misinterpret here? If that is right, then the only real advantage the 6020 has over the 1150HD is with HD discs (blu ray and HD DVDs).

D-NICE

Thank you sir. That was very helpful!

Perhaps this post should have said:

"Thank you, sir! May I have another (111)?" :)

D-Nice:
Excellent review.
Truly appreciate the time you have devoted to helping the AV community.

your review also seemed to suggest the 1150HD looked better with compressed HD content via cable--is that right, or did I misinterpret here? If that is right, then the only real advantage the 6020 has over the 1150HD is with HD discs (blu ray and HD DVDs).

This was my interpretation of your review as well.
D-Nice> Are we off base here?

Also, I would be very interested in hearing which set you would keep if you had to choose just one. The 1150HD? or the 6020?

your review also seemed to suggest the 1150HD looked better with compressed HD content via cable--is that right, or did I misinterpret here?I'm going to have to say yes. However, I do not blame the 6020FD. It's the SA8300 (as I pionted out in my review) and what is being transmitted through Time Warner Cable.

D-Nice,

If you were spending your own money, would you be satisfied with the 6020 or would you feel the need to upgrade to the 151FD Elite?

D-Nice, can you elaborate on the "blotching" that you speak of?Blotching is where some sections of pixels look darker compared to others on a 0% stimuli signal. I have not seen this effect on anything beyond a 0% stimuli screen.

D-Nice,

If you were spending your own money, would you be satisfied with the 6020 or would you feel the need to upgrade to the 151FD Elite?I would get the 151FD. However, if I had a choice between...say...an 8G Kuro and the 6020FD, I would probably get the 6020FD as Movie mode (overall) is quite satisfying.

D-Nice,

Did you try any upconverting with the SD-DVD players or did you just test out a 480i signal? I am wondering what your thoughts are on the 6020 with an upconverted signal at 720p.

I'm going to have to say yes. However, I do not blame the 6020FD. It's the SA8300 (as I pionted out in my review) and what is being transmitted through Time Warner Cable.

We have FIOS, which is supposed to be better than Time Warner Cable (less compression of signals), so perhaps less of an issue. However, the cable box is the same, so not sure what to think.

Anyway, if the 1150HD is in fact better than the 6020 for SD DVDs and HD via cable, this is a big deal, since it still comprises the vast majority of viewing for many people.

D-Nice,

Did you try any upconverting with the SD-DVD players or did you just test out a 480i signal? I am wondering what your thoughts are on the 6020 with an upconverted signal at 720p.No I did not test upscaled SD DVDs as I specifically wanted to see how the 6020FD handled scaling on its own.

Blotching is where some sections of pixels look darker compared to others on a 0% stimuli signal. I have not seen this effect on anything beyond a 0% stimuli screen.

D-Nice, first, thanks for all your efforts.

Would you suggest then that if I see blotching (following the break-in which seems to be reducing the effect) on bright screens that the screen is possibly defective?

your review also seemed to suggest the 1150HD looked better with compressed HD content via cable--is that right, or did I misinterpret here? If that is right, then the only real advantage the 6020 has over the 1150HD is with HD discs (blu ray and HD DVDs).

Even though D Nice's review pointed out that the 1150 was better in these areas, his conclusion indicates a favorable overall impression of the 6020.

"...2nd to none" and the Will Smith quote stands out.

There's still a question on the valid comparison of a 50" and 60". I know I have 2 older Hitachi RP - 35" and 60" and the 35" does have an apparent better picture, but the 60" is my primary tv - it ain't bad (for 9 year old technology and 4:3 format).

D-Nice, first, thanks for all your efforts.

Would you suggest then that if I see blotching (following the break-in which seems to be reducing the effect) on bright screens that the screen is possibly defective?If you can see it on a bright scene and the break-in DVD is aleviating the issue, it's not blotching. Defects don't go away, so i's probably something else. See how it looks after break-in.

I would get the 151FD. However, if I had a choice between...say...an 8G Kuro and the 6020FD, I would probably get the 6020FD as Movie mode (overall) is quite satisfying.


D-nice,

Thanks for the reply. Does that mean you would choose the 6020 over an 8G Elite or just over the 8G 6010FD? Thanks again!!! :cool:

D-nice,

Thanks for the reply. Does that mean you would choose the 6020 over an 8G Elite or just over the 8G 6010FD? Thanks again!!! :cool:Both

D-nice,

Are you going to do initial measurements on the 111, like you did on the 6020, before you start the breakin? :)

Man, this thread moves fast.....:eek:

That's saying a lot about the 9g non-elites! Awesome!

D-nice,

Are you going to do initial measurements on the 111, like you did on the 6020, before you start the breakin? :)Measurements and settings :)

When are you getting your 111 again, D-Nice?

When are you getting your 111 again, D-Nice?Tomorrow.

Sweet! I look forward to your impressions and settings so I can compare them to what I've already calibrated by eye.

Both


D-nice,

Thanks again for the quick response. You've pretty much convinced me to just pull the trigger on a 6020FD and not look back. Between the extra $1400-1500 I'd have to spend on an Elite and the fact that I'm hard pressed to find an authorized dealer within the 250 mile radius I think the 6020 might be a better fit for my situation. While I certainly would love to have the 151FD, I don't think getting the non-Elite would be "slumming it" by any means. Thanks again for all of your help. :cool:

D-nice,


Thanks for using 2001 space odessey. As I posted recently in the 8g settings theard, I watched the HD DVD version of 2001 (same as blu ray for those reading) and it clearly showed that while 8gen black levels are better than the competition, there is still a large amount of improvements left. On that movie in particular, how much of a noticable jump did you see towards the black levels and the "3D" effect that would be a by product of better black levels. Since you like short answers, just pick one: subtle, noticeable, impressive, night and day. :)

does anyone know whether the Pioneer DLNA input can display HD? (I am also wondering whether I can buy something that sends my echostar dish signal from the 622 to the Pioneer.)

PS: I am chuckling about complaints about the compressed quality of TV. Far worse than the low quality to me are the annoying displays at the bottom. They used to be small identifiers. These days, I get all sorts of monsters, jumpers, etc, appearing all of a sudden in the middle of the scene. In comparison, compression noise is outright inconspicuous.

I know this might annoy some people me asking this, but I Can't find D-nice's review, after skimming through the pages and searching for it I can't bloody find it! can somebody please direct me with a page number or a link? thank you:)

I just hope that Pio doesn't take a step backwards with the 10G since it'll be Panasonic glass. So long as they keep their superior processing, color management, etc in an Elite form I'll probably wait another year and pull the trigger on a 10G (presuming it comes out next year).

I know this might annoy some people me asking this, but I Can't find D-nice's review, after skimming through the pages and searching for it I can't bloody find it! can somebody please direct me with a page number or a link? thank you:)

Second post on the first page

Anyone that is familiar with Nero, some of the newer versions have a program that lets you upconvert your dvd's to MP4.

the problem is when you upconvert the file is at least 2x as big.

so my question is what would give the better picture, a regular dvd, or one thats upconverted to MP4 but uses the same amount of disc space? and what if one were to use a DL DVD would that be enough to make a picture improvement?

i guess overall, does nero or pioneer upconvert better? lol

We have FIOS, which is supposed to be better than Time Warner Cable (less compression of signals), so perhaps less of an issue. However, the cable box is the same, so not sure what to think.


My 6020 looks great with FiOS assuming of course a good HD channel (most of the HD channels actually) and good show.


Anyway, if the 1150HD is in fact better than the 6020 for SD DVDs and HD via cable, this is a big deal, since it still comprises the vast majority of viewing for many people.

SD DVD performance almost needs it own review and testing considering the wide variance in source quality, encoding variance, players etc. Are we assuming here that the same exact 6020 A/V settings should be used for HD material as for SD material? My JVC for instance almost assumes in it's design and manuals you should use different settings for HD and SD material.

Also a reviewer would likely test with something that maintains 480i output signal to the TV correct? Will most people following the review have a player that will output 480i or 480p for an SD DVD?

D-Nice's review of the 6020 made me glad I bought the Pro110FD (8G). What's the point of great black levels if the primary colors are oversaturated. Makes me think of the way a Sony LCOS XBR looks -- highly oversaturated colors are initially impressive in the showroom, but over time, you start hating the picture.

What I like about my Pro110FD is that the grayscale can be calibrated beautifully without the need to go into service mode. The colors can be adjusted to perfection without going to service mode. Unfortunately, these two do interact, but with some trial and error, one can achieve near perfection.

I do hope Pioneer does not cripple these adjustments in the 9G Elite sets. I would rather spend the extra dough for the ability to dial in the picture to perfection, rather than be stuck with a permanently poor quality picture. For a $5K plasma, if the colors are not right, I don't care what the black levels look like!

D-Nice, since I can't send you a private message or email, I'll say thanks for all your work on this — I've read all the way through the PDF.

My copy editor personality has gone into effect; when you use the phrase "bold well" or "doesn't bold well," I think you mean "bode well." It took me some time to figure out your meaning.

Just saw a 151 setup at local BB and the picture did not fill all the way to the bezal. There was a quarter plus inch gray frame around the picture as if the over scan was off. This did not look right. Is this normal for the 9G line?

I would rather spend the extra dough for the ability to dial in the picture to perfection, rather than be stuck with a permanently poor quality picture.




I don't recall reading the phrase "poor quality picture" once in D-Nice's review of the 6020FD. Ease up with the dramatic overstatements.

The 9g elites definitely are not crippled like the non-elites are.

I'm going to have to say yes. However, I do not blame the 6020FD. It's the SA8300 (as I pionted out in my review) and what is being transmitted through Time Warner Cable.
D-Nice,

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I was very concerned by your comments about cable quality. Your post here concerns me even more so.

Even though we are in the same TW region, would I have any hope that my "last mile" delivery might offer better quality than yours? Or do you think this is an issue inherrent in the SA800HD and the signal they are pumping out througout their service area and therefore there's no hope? (Just grasping at straws here.)

I realize this is more of a cable service type of question, but I figured you would know better than anyone. Your comments make me wonder if now's the time to consider jumping to satellite (D*, maybe?).

-Dean

D-Nice, that's a great review you did. And it raises concerns that the 6020 was less than stellar on SD material, since that's mostly what I watch; presumably the 5020 would have the same issues. I'll still need to see for myself of course, but the heads-up is appreciated.

Or do you think this is an issue inherrent in the SA800HD and the signal they are pumping out througout their service area and therefore there's no hope?

They pump the same overcompressed, bitrate-starved signal to all of the customers from the local distribution center.

But, as the satellite companies are adding more and more HD channels without enough bandwidth to support them, lots of people are complaining that the PQ is really suffering there, too.

D-Nice,

I realize this is more of a cable service type of question, but I figured you would know better than anyone. Your comments make me wonder if now's the time to consider jumping to satellite (D*, maybe?).

-Dean

In case you missed my similiar question:

Quote:
Do you know if satellite dish (dish network) has less compression than cable, thereby reducing some of the shortcomings of the sd/hd cable shortcomings?

Nope. It might actually be worse.

In case you missed my similiar question:
Nope. It might actually be worse.
...and it might actually be better.

From all the reports I've seen here at AVS Forum, the quality of digital cable (both SD and HD) varies so much you just can't make any generalized comparisons with Satellite. You could probably talk about one particular area of a city with one particular STB, but not much more than that.

Personally, I find the quality of the newer H.264 HD channels on D* to be excellent. Note that I'm mainly familiar with OTA MPEG2 and down-rezzed D* MPEG2. I don't have HD-optical to compare to (probably a good thing for now). I also suspect that when they eliminate the legacy MPEG2 channels ( my HR10-250 won't be happy :( ) the quality of the SD channels may go up a little.

- LoopinFool

D-Nice's review of the 6020 made me glad I bought the Pro110FD (8G). What's the point of great black levels if the primary colors are oversaturated.

I do hope Pioneer does not cripple these adjustments in the 9G Elite sets.

Lets hope the service menu can be accessed and and D-Nice can provide these adjustments. Otherwise I'm with you.

Armageddon is here if they are missing / inaccessible in the 9G Elites.

...and it might actually be better.

Personally, I find the quality of the newer H.264 HD channels on D* to be excellent.

- LoopinFool

+1

Currently I watch HD channels on D* about 95% of the time. Including the MLB Extra Innings games and my locals. No problems whatsoever on video or audio.

This may be due to only using three receivers on my Multi switch. If I was pushing it with more receivers, maybe then there would be higher bandwidth requirements resulting in anomalies.

Ya know... for some reason Kuro makes me want to write poems... maybe it was that Spike Lee Kuro commercial. Can't wait till we hear about Mr. Pro-111FD!

How's this for a home theater display rule of thumb?

Turn off the light!
Thats how its done right!
If those dark areas gray?
Run the hell away!
Get a spacey scene!
Man those blacks are clean.
Whoa! All you see is true black!
Pay the dealers. that display goes in the truck's back!

Thank you.. thank you. I'm here every 2 months.:D

OK I've let this thread get away from me. I can't seem to find th D man's review. What page? Thanks!

OK I've let this thread get away from me. I can't seem to find th D man's review. What page? Thanks!

1st page:)

^^^^^ Post #2

Thanks.

I feel like I just entered the Twilight Zone but that's another story.

Great review and just as I thought I could live with my 700U for a little while longer I had to go read that review.

D-Nice, which HD channels did you use for comparison on your TW cable connection? The reason I ask is that I know that cable has been accused (rightfully so) of re-compressing the original signals of a number of their HD channels. I have FIOS available which has been said to pass along the content provider's signal "unmolested" for all HD channels. I know that Comcast doesn't appear to be compressing ESPN's signal at all based on a review of the signals posted here a couple months back. Thought maybe TW might be practicing something along the same lines and that maybe you could look at ESPN (if you haven't already). Thanks in advance!

Here's a link to the FIOS/Comcast comparison showing bit rate differences (for anyone who might be interested):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008271

I would rather spend the extra dough for the ability to dial in the picture to perfection, rather than be stuck with a permanently poor quality picture.

I don't recall reading the phrase "poor quality picture" once in D-Nice's review of the 6020FD. Ease up with the dramatic overstatements.

Amen Brent,
Poor quality picture?? :confused:
From what I have read, D-Nice said that the 6020 outperformed the 8G elites in many categories. I believe the word he used was "Spanked".
Personally I would rather have the 6020 than an 8G elite. I place alot of importance in Blacks and the fact that the 9G's have a brighter picture than the 8G's.
Color controls are needed on the 6020 but the 6020 is no slouch in the color department.
D-Nice never said "poor quality picture" once! Nothing even cose.

In fact I believe in his conclusion he stated:
"The 6020FD will quench any potential owner’s thirst for unparallel picture quality like no other display I’ve encountered. Mouthwatering colors, mystifying black levels coupled with mindboggling contrast dynamics."

How someone got "poor quality picture" out of that I am unsure of.

D-Nice Good Job as Always. How does it feel to walk thru the Valley and Fear No One.
Thanks,
Glenee

I have been following this thread, waiting to see the results and purchase a
9G. After discovering that the non-Elites have been "dumb downed" as to some of the user controllable features, like noise reduction (hard coded), I became even more aware that I would probably have to purchase an Elite to be happy. I discovered today that my Costco has the 5010 at a killer price (can't list I believe without violating forum rules). I realize this is subjective, but do you think I will be happy pulling the trigger on a 5010. I don't watch in the evenings in a total black environment. I have spots in the ceiling on the side and back walls, about 3 feet in from the wall, cans angled towards the wall. I keep these dimmed all the way down. The effect is very similar to the local Consolidated Theater here with their dimmed overheads and those "lighted stars" on the sides between the surround speakers, maybe slightly higher light output, but still a reasonably dark room. Black level is important to me, but the savings on the 5010 is hard to pass up. Decisions, decisions ...................... Opinions?

John
ps: the 5010 can also do "dot by dot" correct?

Honestly, if you are hardly ever going to watch in dimly lit environment, that TV would be just right for you, especially since you say you can get a good deal.

Honestly, if you are hardly ever going to watch in dimly lit environment, that TV would be just right for you, especially since you say you can get a good deal.

Well, the room is dimly lit, just not total blackness........ I seem to get too much eye strain in a totally black room. I tend to agree with your statement though, with the minimal light levels I watch in, combined with the price, I am having a hard time justifying the "improvement (9G) to price ratio". Thanks.

John

No problem! the 5010 is still a fantastic TV, so make the purchase and enjoy!

No problem! the 5010 is still a fantastic TV, so make the purchase and enjoy!

I'm with ya, the price to performance ratio is just too hard to pass up!

John

I Finally got to really watchh a Blu-ray on my 6020.
I watched "house of 2000 corpses".

Chad,

I've got that movie on Blu-ray too. The difference is I don't have a player yet. If things go well, I should be getting the Pioneer 51FD by mid July. It will be my first Blu-ray player and I know it will last me at least a few years. I really wanted version 2.0, but I could not wait any longer.

At least I have a nice collection of Blu-rays ready and waiting!

D-Nice, since I can't send you a private message or email, I'll say thanks for all your work on this — I've read all the way through the PDF.

My copy editor personality has gone into effect; when you use the phrase "bold well" or "doesn't bold well," I think you mean "bode well." It took me some time to figure out your meaning.

D-Nice: why not start writing articles for magazines?

/iaw

In case you missed my similiar question:

Quote:
Do you know if satellite dish (dish network) has less compression than cable, thereby reducing some of the shortcomings of the sd/hd cable shortcomings?

Nope. It might actually be worse.

DTV mpeg 4 programming is very impressive.

bob

D-Nice: why not start writing articles for magazines?

/iaw

I was actually thinking the same thing, but I think he is happy the way it is :)

I actually see it on full white screens (break-in DVD) as well, although it's hard to determine whether it's my eyes or actually in the panel. It does seem to have reduced in the 30 hours or so I've run the DVD so far.

I'm going to run it out to 150 hours and try some actual content and see whether I notice any picture anomalies before I decide whether or not to return the panel.

That's not the problem he's talking about. What you describe is the "dirty screen" effect. I have it too. And like you, it's getting less noticeable during the break-in period. It's still not all gone, however during regular video content, I can't even see it, even while trying to search for it.

I'm pretty sure you have nothing to worry about.

Ya know... for some reason Kuro makes me want to write poems...
[...]
Thank you.. thank you. I'm here every 2 months.:D

Heheheh. "Try the veal!" (Shrek)

Seriously, though Johnny, are you thinking of getting a 9G in the near future, or are you sitting tight with the one you have right now?

Yours,

David

It is my understanding that the "standard" picture mode is the only mode that can be saved with a unique set of settings for each input. The settings for every other picture mode will remain universal to all inputs.

FocusedOne,

I have noticed on my 151FD, I have been able to have different settings with two different inputs. Have not tested them all though.

The burn-in DVD (with component connections) has break-in settings (according to D-Nice's settings) then on the other input I have it set to reference settings (from the satellite receiver). That makes it easy to switch from one to the other without having to change settings every time.

For everyone that is worried about watching the plasma in the dark: just do what I do and put a lamp behind the television (if it's on a stand). Any old desk lamp will do the job nicely.

ps: the 5010 can also do "dot by dot" correct?Yes with 1080i and 1080p HDMI input.

Well, the room is dimly lit, just not total blackness........ I seem to get too much eye strain in a totally black room.Few people have a room that doesn't reflect light from the display itself. A totally black room is not realistic.

Bias lighting behind the display is also used to reduce eye strain. If your current lighting can be dimmed to less than 10% of the light output from your display without reflecting directly onto the screen, you are in good shape.

If you want improved color accuracy, then using a light designed for that task would be a better choice. In that case you probably should be someone interested in a professional calibration.

I tend to agree with your statement though, with the minimal light levels I watch in, combined with the price, I am having a hard time justifying the "improvement (9G) to price ratio".We have the 8G 6010, and after UMR calibrated it, our satisfaction is very high. It's the 60" version of the 5010. After D-Nice's glowing report on the 6020, I would buy either the 5020 or 6020 if I was shopping now. There are valid reasons for you to make either choice -- 5020 or 6020. I don't think your room's light control should be one of those reason if what I wrote above is correct.

Hopefully the blotching will be minimized, if not eradicated, in later production batches...which was suppose to be done already (Pioneer!?!?!?!).

I wonder if the "eradicated" ones are being installed in the Signature Series?

Yes with 1080i and 1080p HDMI input.

Excellent, thank you!

John

Few people have a room that doesn't reflect light from the display itself. A totally black room is not realistic.

Bias lighting behind the display is also used to reduce eye strain. If your current lighting can be dimmed to less than 10% of the light output from your display without reflecting directly onto the screen, you are in good shape.

If you want improved color accuracy, then using a light designed for that task would be a better choice. In that case you probably should be someone interested in a professional calibration.

We have the 8G 6010, and after UMR calibrated it, our satisfaction is very high. It's the 60" version of the 5010. After D-Nice's glowing report on the 6020, I would buy either the 5020 or 6020 if I was shopping now. There are valid reasons for you to make either choice -- 5020 or 6020. I don't think your room's light control should be one of those reason if what I wrote above is correct.

Thanks, actually the reason for the consideration of the 5010 was the price to performance ratio with the great price I can get one for; the lighting comments was in reference to being satisfied with the black level of the 5010, since I don't view in close to total darkness. I am reasonably certain I am close to the 10% ratio on the dimmed lights, and they don't reflect off the screen, no reflections at all in my room setup, a good thing. I realize this is subjective, and I seem to vasilate on the decision. Thanks to all of you for the input!

John

Thanks, actually the reason for the consideration of the 5010 was the price to performance ratio with the great price I can get one for;That's how I picked between the 6010 and the Elite 150. ;)

the lighting comments was in reference to being satisfied with the black level of the 5010, since I don't view in close to total darkness.Either set will work fine for you. The 5020 should look better. If you never see them side, and you aren't one to second-guess yourself, then I don't see how it can be a problem. If professional calibration doesn't float your boat, you can use D-Nice's settings. You would also need to make his SM changes to the 5010 to get rid of a red blush in skin tones.

Enjoy. :)

D-Nice: why not start writing articles for magazines?

/iaw

I second the nomination! D-nice is doing a great job and deserves a salary from a publisher.

Your comments make me wonder if now's the time to consider jumping to satellite (D*, maybe?).

-Dean

Dean,

I would recommend going with satellite. I have friends in your town who have TW cable and they cant believe how much better my Dish HD looks compared to their HD feed.

I also have another friend with Direct Tv who gets irritated everytime he's over at the fact that his HD channels are not on par with the HD feed I get through Dish Networks ViP 622 and is trying to get out of his contract with them so he can switch to Dish.

I personally dont think the difference between Dish HD and the providers my friends have or night and day, Dish themselves are certainly guilty of compressing their HD feed as well, but I would definitey say I think its better than the feed my friends are paying for IMO as well as theirs.

The last thing I want to do here is start a "Dish vs. whatever satellite or cable thread" and fill up this thread with pages on debates on which is better but I figured I share my experience with you.

Heck maybe you could just come over and see the difference for yourself if this would help you;)

I have the 151 on order (June 26th). I have started to put up the wall mount (VMPL3B) and have noticed something disturbing. In order for me to centre the TV on the wall I will only be able to use 2 studs (16" apart) which will be out of spec for the 151 weight recommendations.

So, I'm thinking about switching to the 141FD. What is the weight of this panel?

FocusedOne,

I have noticed on my 151FD, I have been able to have different settings with two different inputs. Have not tested them all though.

The burn-in DVD (with component connections) has break-in settings (according to D-Nice's settings) then on the other input I have it set to reference settings (from the satellite receiver). That makes it easy to switch from one to the other without having to change settings every time.

Okay, let's say you have input 1 set to standard picture mode and use this as your input for the break in dvd. On input 2, you use movie mode with the reference settings. The movie mode reference settings are now the same for all inputs = movie mode is the same on inputs 1,2,3,4,5, and 6. Only standard mode can be programmed uniquely for each input.

I have the 151 on order (June 26th). I have started to put up the wall mount (VMPL3B) and have noticed something disturbing. In order for me to centre the TV on the wall I will only be able to use 2 studs (16" apart) which will be out of spec for the 151 weight recommendations.

So, I'm thinking about switching to the 141FD. What is the weight of this panel?

Mean you'll ONLY be able to fit 4 3" lag bolts into studs instead of 6? :rolleyes:

Do you have any idea how strong a connection that is? With 4 lag bolts properly installed, you'd probably rip the studs clean out of the wall before you'd rip the bolts out.

I put up a VMPL3B and did pullups on the bracket (I weigh 210lbs.) without it so much as budging or making a funny noise. Only into 2 studs.

The sarcasm in this post isn't directed at you by the way, but at the ridiculous overkill required by the mount companies to cover their butts. I would venture to guess that with 4 lag bolts in 2 different studs, you'd need nearly 1000lbs to compromise the connection.

At least you didn't make my first mistake and buy the VMPL2 that states it's good for a 60" set only to find out it was 1" to short in every dimension. I took it back to BB and got $20 knocked off the VMPL3 for my trouble, since it was $60 more and the product (VMPL2) was mislabeled.

D-Nice

Thank you for a passionate yet objective review of the 6020. :)

Gianmarco

You've seen D-Nice's review of the 6020 on SD. How are you finding SD -- broadcast or DVD -- on the 111?

Hi folks,

I picked up my Pioneer 111 earlier today from Best Buy, and after transporting it to my house, transporting my old TV (a 30" Toshiba 1080i CRT, which had AWFUL black crush) to my sister's house, and playing around with the 111 for an hour or so before running the break in (off the home media center), I have my initial observations:

Buzzing:
No buzzing at all. Maybe my hearing is bad, but I'm 28, and I think I have decent hearing. Maybe I don't know what I'm supposed to hear, but I'm not hearing it. Awesome.

Stuck pixels:
None. I've searched, not super closely because I don't want to find one, but I haven't spotted any while running the break in disc, even on the white scenes.

Picture quality:
The picture looks excellent! Beyond my expectations. I was watching Planet Earth on Blu-ray, and there are scenes where there are dark darks (views of the ocean, etc.), and those totally blended in with the bezel. Ditto on the few minutes of widescreen movies I watched. I have noticed that now I wish my viewing distance was a bit better (I sit about 7 or 8 feet away), since my cable HD feed looks nowhere near as good as the Blu-ray discs, when my old TV didn't show such a drastic difference. Standard definition looks quite good, too. I haven't watched any regular DVDs yet, but I will experiment tomorrow.

Sound:
This set sounds awesome. I don't have a surround sound set-up yet, nor do I plan to get one for another 6 months or so (not because of cost but because my place is too small anyway), but this will definitely tide me over.

A/V Options:
So far, I think Movie mode looks best. Pure mode seems to give the picture a softer quality, which I'm not especially fond of. Again, I only watched about an hour of programming so far, so it's hard to tell. Also, is there something I need to do to set the TV to ColorSpace2?

Overall:
I'm loving the TV so far. It's like having a movie theatre in my living room!

I have the 151 on order (June 26th). I have started to put up the wall mount (VMPL3B) and have noticed something disturbing. In order for me to centre the TV on the wall I will only be able to use 2 studs (16" apart) which will be out of spec for the 151 weight recommendations.

So, I'm thinking about switching to the 141FD. What is the weight of this panel?

Although you may be okay with the two studs, I know your concern. I had the same problem - where the center of the wall was the empty space between two studs and moving the mount either way placed the PDP significantly off center.

I don't know if you are in a position to do this, but, I actually made a 2' x 4' cut-out on the wall to actually expose four studs. I then framed two horizontal stud pieces spanning the two vertical studs on the left and the two studs on the right and placed a vertical stud piece in-between the horizontals - forming an "I" on either side (using "L" brackets from Home Depot to joint stud sections). This served two purposes - (1) allowed me to fasten onto two more points in additon to the two vertical studs, and (2) distributed the load across 4 studs!!!!! In addition, I then replaced the 2'x 4' section of the wall with a 2' x 4' plywood panel with the same thickness of the drywall (further adding to the strength) . I then taped, applied joint compound (mud) and painted the wall - you can't tell anything was done to the wall.

Overkill? Probably - but I will feel more comfortable that any crashing sound I hear in the middle of the night is not my $6,000 Plasma :eek: I don't know about the rest of you but to me $6,000 is an expenditure that I can make maybe only every ten or so years.


PM me if you would like more details.

Although you may be okay with the two studs, I know your concern. I had the same problem - where the center of the wall was the empty space between two studs and moving the mount either way placed the PDP significantly off center.

I don't know if you are in a position to do this, but, I actually made a 2' x 4' cut-out on the wall to actually expose four studs. I then framed two horizontal stud pieces spanning the two vertical studs on the left and the two studs on the right and placed a vertical stud piece in-between the horizontals - forming an "I" on either side (using "L" brackets from Home Depot to joint stud sections). This served two purposes - (1) allowed me to fasten onto two more points in additon to the two vertical studs, and (2) distributed the load across 4 studs!!!!! In addition, I then replaced the 2'x 4' section of the wall with a 2' x 4' plywood panel with the same thickness of the drywall (further adding to the strength) . I then taped, applied joint compound (mud) and painted the wall - you can't tell anything was done to the wall.

Overkill? Probably - but I will feel more comfortable that any crashing sound I hear in the middle of the night is not my $6,000 Plasma :eek: I don't know about the rest of you but to me $6,000 is an expenditure that I can make maybe only every ten or so years.


PM me if you would like more details.

While I agree there's nothing wrong with overkill to make you feel better about protecting your investment, I guarantee on my life that 4 3" lag bolts properly installed into 2 studs will NEVER allow the TV to drop. I stand by my statement that you're more likely to rip the studs completely out of the wall first.

I find it hard to believe that the Sansus VMPL3 will not grab three studs, however research the Peerless ST680P <<<Click Here>>> (http://www.peerlessmounts.com/dyn/Products/BrowseProduct.aspx/productID/149313/categoryID/195/u/T) . The back plate is a wapping 46 long, you will hit three studs ;) Now it does say 61" and up to 102", but I think it would work out. They have a nice PDF thru the link....

http://www.peerlessmounts.com/pcimages/products/extra/ST680_large.jpg (http://www.peerlessmounts.com/dyn/Products/BrowseProduct.aspx/productID/149313/categoryID/195/u/T)

I'm still on the fence trying to decide between the Pro111FD and the Samsung LN52A750. The review of the 6020 was less than stellar for me. I will certainly love watching Blu Ray movies but I also watch a lot of TV and I have hundreds of SD DVDS. I'm certainly looking forward to the 111FD review. With baited breath I might ad. The Samsung has excellent black levels from what I can see in the stores and is far cheaper and doesn't have the burn-in concerns but the 111FD has the longer warranty and better reputation for picture quality. I sure hope it's like light and day when compared to the 6020. My purchase might just depend on the next review.

I find it hard to believe that the Sansus VMPL3 will not grab three studs It will grab three studs but not where I need it to (centre of the room). If I move the mount to one side to grab the third stud then the panel cannot be centred in the room due to the 33" mounting hole seperation.

Although you may be okay with the two studs, I know your concern. I had the same problem - where the center of the wall was the empty space between two studs and moving the mount either way placed the PDP significantly off center.

I don't know if you are in a position to do this, but, I actually made a 2' x 4' cut-out on the wall to actually expose four studs. I then framed two horizontal stud pieces spanning the two vertical studs on the left and the two studs on the right and placed a vertical stud piece in-between the horizontals - forming an "I" on either side (using "L" brackets from Home Depot to joint stud sections). This served two purposes - (1) allowed me to fasten onto two more points in additon to the two vertical studs, and (2) distributed the load across 4 studs!!!!! In addition, I then replaced the 2'x 4' section of the wall with a 2' x 4' plywood panel with the same thickness of the drywall (further adding to the strength) . I then taped, applied joint compound (mud) and painted the wall - you can't tell anything was done to the wall.Great idea but sounds like a lot of work. If the 141FD is significanlty lighter than the 151FD I may just go that route (with 2 studs). Otherwise, I'll be PM'ing you :)

Mean you'll ONLY be able to fit 4 3" lag bolts into studs instead of 6?

Do you have any idea how strong a connection that is? With 4 lag bolts properly installed, you'd probably rip the studs clean out of the wall before you'd rip the bolts out.

I put up a VMPL3B and did pullups on the bracket (I weigh 210lbs.) without it so much as budging or making a funny noise. Only into 2 studs.

The sarcasm in this post isn't directed at you by the way, but at the ridiculous overkill required by the mount companies to cover their butts. I would venture to guess that with 4 lag bolts in 2 different studs, you'd need nearly 1000lbs to compromise the connection.

At least you didn't make my first mistake and buy the VMPL2 that states it's good for a 60" set only to find out it was 1" to short in every dimension. I took it back to BB and got $20 knocked off the VMPL3 for my trouble, since it was $60 more and the product (VMPL2) was mislabeled. I see your point but if the mount ever failed (1 in a million) then I assume according to Sanus it will be my fault since I exceeded thier spec. If simply getting the 141FD solves this issue then why not.

So again, does anyone know how much the 141FD weighs?

Cheers and thanks

I'm still on the fence trying to decide between the Pro111FD and the Samsung LN52A750. The review of the 6020 was less than stellar for me. I will certainly love watching Blu Ray movies but I also watch a lot of TV and I have hundreds of SD DVDS. I'm certainly looking forward to the 111FD review. With baited breath I might ad. The Samsung has excellent black levels from what I can see in the stores and is far cheaper and doesn't have the burn-in concerns but the 111FD has the longer warranty and better reputation for picture quality. I sure hope it's like light and day when compared to the 6020. My purchase might just depend on the next review.

Go for the PRO-111FD.

And stop trying to catch fish with your breath.:D

Question for you guys. I'm looking to hang a 151 or possibly a 141 when it comes out on top of my fireplace. The fireplace is regular brick covered by drywall (actual fireplace is a marble opening without a mantle). Is it possible to hang the plasma on brick? I'm wondering if the brick would just be brittle and not let the screws get into them deep enough to support the tv. Any help would be appreciated.

Heheheh. "Try the veal!" (Shrek)

Seriously, though Johnny, are you thinking of getting a 9G in the near future, or are you sitting tight with the one you have right now?

Yours,

David

No. I don't have any plasma right now. Don't plan on getting one anytime soon. Very impressed though. Its not as if 9g isn't good enough or anything. Its just... ya only got so much money to spend ya know?

:)

Go for the PRO-111FD.

And stop trying to catch fish with your breath.:D

FWIW ... It's "bated" breath, not "baited" breath... as in to "abate" (i.e., hold or slow) the breath.

FWIW ... It's "bated" breath, not "baited" breath... as in to "abate" (i.e., hold or slow) the breath.

I know..............:confused:

D-Nice,

If someone was to use the optimum setting,

Would you suggest using the room light sensor off or on??

I would think though,When activating the optimum setting it would automatically turn on the room light sensor...
From what I see though this is not the case.

Nice review, D-Nice!

Two comments, though:

The 6020s picture was void of any and all noise. Kudos goes to Pioneer for their hardcoded NR filters being setup just right for HD content.
That is just plain wrong. Some people like noise reduction, others don't. Some people hate film grain, others don't. There is no "right" setting for NR filters that pleases everyone. Just because the setting Pioneer chose satisfies your personal taste does not make it objectively "right". Not displaying any noise (/grain) isn't necessarily the right thing to do for a display. If NR filters are hardcoded, the only "right" setting is "completely off". Because that way you can still activate noise reduction in the source device (e.g. HD DVD/Blu-Ray player with Reon/Realta chips can do that), if you like. But once NR filtering is forced in the display there's *no way* to get rid of the filtering, no matter what you do. Which is BAD. Even if you do like noise filtering, it is quite possible that there are other devices in the processing chain which have better algorithms than the display has. E.g. I don't expect Pioneer's processing to match an Algolith Mosquito or even a Realta/Reon or Gennum VXP.

I know many will say that SD cable will always look “poor at best” on a 1080p display.
That all depends on the scaling algorithm. Maybe you should give a Lumagen video processor a try... ;)

Question about the PDP-6020FD....

Could someone confirm that if the Digital Audio Output option in the System Setup menu is set to PCM then the optical digital output will in fact output 2-channel downmixed PCM when showing a digital broadcast signal (i.e., with Dolby Digital audio) connected to the antenna input?

I'm almost certainly going to buy this display, but I absolutely need this functionality and I want to make absolutely certain that it works the way the manual seems to suggest. I need it to output PCM and not Dolby Digital, and I want to make sure the PCM option applies to the antenna input and not just the HDMI inputs.

If there's someone out there who owns the 6020 and has it hooked up to an antenna, I'd really appreciate it if you could try this out and see what happens. The only way to be sure is to try it, and my local store doesn't have it hooked up right to test it.

I'm still on the fence trying to decide between the Pro111FD and the Samsung LN52A750. The review of the 6020 was less than stellar for me. I will certainly love watching Blu Ray movies but I also watch a lot of TV and I have hundreds of SD DVDS. I'm certainly looking forward to the 111FD review. With baited breath I might ad. The Samsung has excellent black levels from what I can see in the stores and is far cheaper and doesn't have the burn-in concerns but the 111FD has the longer warranty and better reputation for picture quality. I sure hope it's like light and day when compared to the 6020. My purchase might just depend on the next review.

I second this one, having seen (though briefly) a Samsung 750 and being in the same situation as regards viewing habits. I'm not looking for an Elite, but that's still a valid comparison. I'm probably not buying until October, so there's more time for additional reviews and info to come out.

I like your screen name, by the way.

Johnny,hanging around this forum with no plasma is crazy.Like a guy with no cash hanging outside a steak house.Still i enjoy what you have to say but no plasma in your life is so sad.

Hi All-

I recently discovered this forum and was hoping for some help. I am trying to decide if the 5020fd is the best choice for me. My viewing is probably 80-90% commercial TV over cable and the rest movies. I read the helpful review of the 6020 at the start of this thread and it seemed to say that standard sources (cable HD TV or regular DVD) were not the strength of the set. I can not access satellite TV because of trees in the yard. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Jim

Nice review, D-Nice!That is just plain wrong. Some people like noise reduction, others don't. Some people hate film grain, others don't. There is no "right" setting for NR filters that pleases everyone. Just because the setting Pioneer chose satisfies your personal taste does not make it objectively "right". Not displaying any noise (/grain) isn't necessarily the right thing to do for a display. If NR filters are hardcoded, the only "right" setting is "completely off". Because that way you can still activate noise reduction in the source device (e.g. HD DVD/Blu-Ray player with Reon/Realta chips can do that), if you like. But once NR filtering is forced in the display there's *no way* to get rid of the filtering, no matter what you do. Which is BAD. Even if you do like noise filtering, it is quite possible that there are other devices in the processing chain which have better algorithms than the display has. E.g. I don't expect Pioneer's processing to match an Algolith Mosquito or even a Realta/Reon or Gennum VXP.I think you are under the impression that I don't know the difference between "panel enduced noise", high frequency detail filtering, and film grain. Sorry, but I'm well aware of the differences and never said anything about the 6020FD filtering high frequency details (where film grain resides) with HD resolutions. I did see "panel enduced noise" on the 50PZ800u and noted it in my review. Also, keep in mind that I had my 1150HD showing the same material will NO noise reduction feature enabled. The 6020FD showed more high frequency detail than my 1150HD while playing HD DVD and BD discs.


That all depends on the scaling algorithm. Maybe you should give a Lumagen video processor a try... ;)My review was greared towards what the actual PDP can do with signals. Placing an external processor in the mix would defeat the purpose of my review. It's also the reason why I did not want to use any upscaling SD DVD players. IMO, how a panel handles raw and untouched source signals is more important.

Johnny,hanging around this forum with no plasma is crazy.Like a guy with no cash hanging outside a steak house.Still i enjoy what you have to say but no plasma in your life is so sad.He's bumming for a KURO fix :D

D-Nice,

If someone was to use the optimum setting,

Would you suggest using the room light sensor off or on??

I would think though,When activating the optimum setting it would automatically turn on the room light sensor...
From what I see though this is not the case.The room light sensor on by default in Optimum mode. You cannot turn it off.

D-nice,


Thanks for using 2001 space odessey. As I posted recently in the 8g settings theard, I watched the HD DVD version of 2001 (same as blu ray for those reading) and it clearly showed that while 8gen black levels are better than the competition, there is still a large amount of improvements left. On that movie in particular, how much of a noticable jump did you see towards the black levels and the "3D" effect that would be a by product of better black levels. Since you like short answers, just pick one: subtle, noticeable, impressive, night and day. :)How about Very Noticable :D

Just saw a 151 setup at local BB and the picture did not fill all the way to the bezal. There was a quarter plus inch gray frame around the picture as if the over scan was off. This did not look right. Is this normal for the 9G line?Perhaps it was set to Dot by Dot mode?????

I'm still on the fence trying to decide between the Pro111FD and the Samsung LN52A750. The review of the 6020 was less than stellar for me. I will certainly love watching Blu Ray movies but I also watch a lot of TV and I have hundreds of SD DVDS. I'm certainly looking forward to the 111FD review. With baited breath I might ad. The Samsung has excellent black levels from what I can see in the stores and is far cheaper and doesn't have the burn-in concerns but the 111FD has the longer warranty and better reputation for picture quality. I sure hope it's like light and day when compared to the 6020. My purchase might just depend on the next review.

Its very tough to fully appreciate the Kuro's ultra-low black levels in a store ... unless you are able to find a showroom with a single kuro in a very dark room. The Samsung LNA750 black levels are not even remotely close. Also, what burn-in concerns are you talking about? Burn-in really is not an issue anymore and hasn't been for years.

I think you are under the impression that I don't know the difference between "panel enduced noise", high frequency detail filtering, and film grain. Sorry, but I'm well aware of the differences and never said anything about the 6020FD filtering high frequency details (where film grain resides) with HD resolutions. I did see "panel enduced noise" on the 50PZ800u and noted it in my review. Also, keep in mind that I had my 1150HD showing the same material will NO noise reduction feature enabled. The 6020FD showed more high frequency detail than my 1150HD while playing HD DVD and BD discs.
Well, "panel enduced noise" should be reduced or totally discarded. But not by running a noise reduction algorithm on the source data!! And as far as I understand the 6020FD does just that.

Apart from that it's great to hear that the 6020FD shows more high frequency detail than the 1150HD. How good must a 9G Elite with turned off DNR be then? :D

My review was greared towards what the actual PDP can do with signals. Placing an external processor in the mix would defeat the purpose of my review.
Yes, I'm aware of that. But your review contains this:

"I know many will say that SD cable will always look “poor at best” on a 1080p display."

It's a very common misconception that 1080p displays cannot possibly handle SD content well. I just couldn't let that stand without commenting on it. A 1080p display can handle SD content just as well as an SD display - if the scaling algorithm is really good. Sadly most TVs don't have good scaling algorithms. That's why SD content often sucks on a 1080p display.

Perhaps it was set to Dot by Dot mode?????

Which mode do you recommend for any HD viewing on my 6020? Should I leave it on Auto or set it to Dot by Dot?

I see your point but if the mount ever failed (1 in a million) then I assume according to Sanus it will be my fault since I exceeded thier spec. If simply getting the 141FD solves this issue then why not.

First, it's more like 1 in infinity. :D

Secondly, you're not exceeding the spec anyway, the mount calls for 3 studs if the panel is over 125lbs, which the 151FD is not, it's 112lbs. 4oz. according to pioneer's website.

D-Nice, which HD channels did you use for comparison on your TW cable connection? The reason I ask is that I know that cable has been accused (rightfully so) of re-compressing the original signals of a number of their HD channels. I have FIOS available which has been said to pass along the content provider's signal "unmolested" for all HD channels. I know that Comcast doesn't appear to be compressing ESPN's signal at all based on a review of the signals posted here a couple months back. Thought maybe TW might be practicing something along the same lines and that maybe you could look at ESPN (if you haven't already). Thanks in advance!

Here's a link to the FIOS/Comcast comparison showing bit rate differences (for anyone who might be interested):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008271ESPNHD, ESPN2HD, HBOHD, ShowtimeHD, StarzHD, CinemaxHD, The Movie ChannelHD, DiscoveryHD, Animal PlanetHD, UniversalHD, HDNet Movies HD, HDnet, ABC, CBS, FOx, NBC, The Food ChannelHD, The Learning ChannelHD, HGTVHD, The History Channel HD, CNNHD, National Geographic HD....basically every single HD channel TWC sends me :)

Apart from that it's great to hear that the 6020FD shows more high frequency detail than the 1150HD. How good must a 9G Elite with turned off DNR be then? :DI'll find out real soon ;)

It's a very common misconception that 1080p displays cannot possibly handle SD content well. I just couldn't let that stand without commenting on it. A 1080p display can handle SD content just as well as an SD display - if the scaling algorithm is really good. Sadly most TVs don't have good scaling algorithms. That's why SD content often sucks on a 1080p display.I understand your point, however, I was expecting more from the 6020FD. I still don't know if, IMO, the unsatisfactory SD performance was due to panel size, pixel count, or excessive NR filtering. That's why I said I would revisit SD performance on the 111FD.

Which mode do you recommend for any HD viewing on my 6020? Should I leave it on Auto or set it to Dot by Dot?This is subjective to the owner.

Burn-in really is not an issue anymore and hasn't been for years.This is correct for all current PDPs. Image retention (IR) is another issue.

Speaking of blacks, does anyone find that with D-Nice's reference settings, even in a dark room, its hard to differentiate between objects in some shadows?

I'm still on the fence trying to decide between the Pro111FD and the Samsung LN52A750. The review of the 6020 was less than stellar for me. I will certainly love watching Blu Ray movies but I also watch a lot of TV and I have hundreds of SD DVDS. I'm certainly looking forward to the 111FD review. With baited breath I might ad. The Samsung has excellent black levels from what I can see in the stores and is far cheaper and doesn't have the burn-in concerns but the 111FD has the longer warranty and better reputation for picture quality. I sure hope it's like light and day when compared to the 6020. My purchase might just depend on the next review.

This sounds familiar. :) I was considering the 52A750 myself after reading a little about it and initially seeing it at BB. However, I got ahold of the remote, played with the controls, and my opinion of the TV changed. The TV had a dynamic contrast setting on and when I turned it off, not so impressive. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but dynamic contrast will make it impossible to calibrate or it will at least skew the settings continuously based on the brightness of the scene (thus making it impossible to show a consistently calibrated image). A second visit to a different BB had me noticing the purplish tinge when viewing a black screen (TV on) off center. I'd go with the 111FD if I were you. Personally, I want a 60" (and can really only afford the 6020) since I'm coming from a 36" SD-CRT and a 50" only buys me a 3" height difference. However, D-Nice's review makes me wonder if my money wouldn't be better spent on the 50" elite which should cost about the same as the 60" non-elite. I hate being strapped into these decisions. This is a 10 year TV for me as I will not be dropping this much money again any time soon.

D-Nice,

Thank you so much for the great review... can't wait for for your 111FD review.

First, it's more like 1 in infinity. :D

Secondly, you're not exceeding the spec anyway, the mount calls for 3 studs if the panel is over 125lbs, which the 151FD is not, it's 112lbs. 4oz. according to pioneer's website.Well, my 151FD will be well over 125lb including the child/wii guard :). Actually the guard is more for my intoxicated friends than my children :)

Dean,

I would recommend going with satellite. I have friends in your town who have TW cable and they cant believe how much better my Dish HD looks compared to their HD feed.

I also have another friend with Direct Tv who gets irritated everytime he's over at the fact that his HD channels are not on par with the HD feed I get through Dish Networks ViP 622 and is trying to get out of his contract with them so he can switch to Dish.

I personally dont think the difference between Dish HD and the providers my friends have or night and day, Dish themselves are certainly guilty of compressing their HD feed as well, but I would definitey say I think its better than the feed my friends are paying for IMO as well as theirs.

The last thing I want to do here is start a "Dish vs. whatever satellite or cable thread" and fill up this thread with pages on debates on which is better but I figured I share my experience with you.

Heck maybe you could just come over and see the difference for yourself if this would help you;)
Hey...thanks for the recommendation. I have a neighbor that fancies himself as someone who knows a lot about cable, SAT, tv's, etc. He claims that TW in our area is horrible and he's so glad he switched to SAT. Of course, this is the same guy who's never heard of a Pioneer Kuro and the same guy that advised me not to get a plasma 'cause they "don't last".:cool:

I guess I'll just have to wait and see what TW looks like on my 151FD. I'm still running the break-in DVD, but should be able to hook up to cable this weekend. If, after awhile, I just don't like the look of it I may start looking into switching to SAT.

BTW, after we get our repective panels broken in and set up, we definately ought to get together and compare notes. Heck...let's even invite D-Nice to drive down to join the party!

-Dean

Well, my 151FD will be well over 125lb including the child/wii guard :). Actually the guard is more for my intoxicated friends than my children :)

I'm still willing to bet one of your inebriated friends could do pullups on the set while it's mounted and it wouldn't even budge. Trust me, I'm not just yanking your chain here. Properly installed lag bolts are obscenely strong. I'm pretty sure just the two top bolts on my mount would hold the set indefinitely.

But like I said, nothing wrong in doing what you need to do for your own peace of mind. Just trying to save you some bucks and extra effort.

Well, my 151FD will be well over 125lb including the child/wii guard :). Actually the guard is more for my intoxicated friends than my children :)

I am very interested about what you mean by a "child/wii guard". I assume you are serious and it is something transparent that will protect the PDP. Is it something you can purchase or is it home-made? Any additional details or recommendations would be appreciated. :)

If I understand the break-in dvd theory correctly, I place the dvd in my dvd player player on Monday; turn on 6020, input D-Nice's reference settings for break-in period, put DVD in repeat mode, hit play button on dvd, and come back into my basement on Sunday morning, and I am good to go.

Do I need to monitor anything over the six days, or just set it and forget it?

If I understand the break-in dvd theory correctly, I place the dvd in my dvd player player on Monday; turn on 6020, input D-Nice's reference settings for break-in period, put DVD in repeat mode, hit play button on dvd, and come back into my basement on Sunday morning, and I am good to go.

Do I need to monitor anything over the six days, or just set it and forget it?

You need to monitor, at least a little. Should anything happen to the DVD player that interferes with normal play. An error, electrical problem or anything else could stop play and leave something on the screen that could cause IR.

I'll find out real soon ;)

I understand your point, however, I was expecting more from the 6020FD. I still don't know if, IMO, the unsatisfactory SD performance was due to panel size, pixel count, or excessive NR filtering. That's why I said I would revisit SD performance on the 111FD.
D-Nice

That is so nice of you to do for doing this time taking review. I guess you really enjoy doing this stuff esp. if you are not a dealer.

I noticed in one of your older posts about using oppo 80 and put it in pass thru mode for standard DVD. Do you still stand by that even after noticing that the inbuilt scaler is not living up to expecations in the 6020 as far as standard DVD is concerned


Also I have sony DVD player which also has an option to turn off the progressive scan function.Do you think that would do the same as oppo980 as far as straight pass through ...or is there more to this than just turning off the progr... scan function

Do you have any idea if the new pioneer BD 151 has an unaltered pass thru for stand DVD just like oppo980

This is correct for all current PDPs. Image retention (IR) is another issue.
Sorry one more question D Nice

Are you still gonna get the Elite 151FD as mentioned in one of your very old posts.
Don`t you think the 141FD is a better way to go (esp if it is thinner,lighter and cheaper by about 500 bucks and more than that more functionality)

Yes, you would need to monitor to make sure that the DVD didn't freeze or there's no border around the screen. Aside from that leaving it to run is what a lot of people are doing.

Just wanted to give a shout out to Alex and Deb at Invision for handling my 5020 order. Awesome experience dealing with them!! The whole process from order to delivery went like clockwork. Anyone shoppring for a Pio should definitely add Invision to their list.

No. I don't have any plasma right now. Don't plan on getting one anytime soon. Very impressed though. Its not as if 9g isn't good enough or anything. Its just... ya only got so much money to spend ya know?

Oh, totally, man--I hear that loud and clear. It's my desire to avoid frequent "upgrades" that has me constantly vacillating between getting a 9G and waiting for the 10Gs. I just have to get off my indecisive butt and go *see* one of these latest ones for myself, I think. But the fear I have is that upon seeing one (esp. an Elite), I'll decide I simply must have it, blow a big, fat chunk of my savings, and then regret it when the 10Gs roll off the line.

He's bumming for a KURO fix :D

Well, in that case he has company. I just can't make up my mind, here.

By the way, D-Nice, are you getting your 111 from Value Electronics? Do they sell and ship the 9G Elites, do you know? Tentatively, I'm thinking of going that route just because of what I've (indirectly) seen of the way they treat their customers.

Yours,

David

D-Nice,
If you decide to cheat a little, i'd love to hear your initial impressions on SDTV on the 111 vs. the 1150. Thanks

Found this forum about a week ago, tons of valuable info. Recently replaced a tube tv in my office with a 5080. I am going to replace a 14 yr old Toshiba RPT soon with a 6020 from a forum sponsor. Question regarding break-in of the 6020. It says to set output to 720p. At this time I only have a progressive scan dvd, no upconvert or blue-ray. If I run the break-in through componenet cables at 480p will it hurt anything? Thanks.

D-Nice,
If you decide to cheat a little, i'd love to hear your initial impressions on SDTV on the 111 vs. the 1150. Thanks

+1. Being an owner of 1150 I would be interested to hear that as well! ;)

D-Nice previously indicated that he might post full review (like he did for 6020) for his 1150 - which would be very :cool:. Even if not there will be a detailed comparison of 1150 and 6020 performance when he does review of the 111 so soon enough all of our various queries should be satisfied. :D

Oh, totally, man--I hear that loud and clear. It's my desire to avoid frequent "upgrades" that has me constantly vacillating between getting a 9G and waiting for the 10Gs. I just have to get off my indecisive butt and go *see* one of these latest ones for myself, I think. But the fear I have is that upon seeing one (esp. an Elite), I'll decide I simply must have it, blow a big, fat chunk of my savings, and then regret it when the 10Gs roll off the line.



Well, in that case he has company. I just can't make up my mind, here.

By the way, D-Nice, are you getting your 111 from Value Electronics? Do they sell and ship the 9G Elites, do you know? Tentatively, I'm thinking of going that route just because of what I've (indirectly) seen of the way they treat their customers.

Yours,

David

I'm not D-Nice, but I just ordered my 111 from Value Electronics. If you are within 200 miles of his store, they will ship it out to you. I bought my XA2 from Robert as well. Both purchases have been great--outstanding prices, great service. Give them a call to see if you're close enough to have one of the 111s shipped out, you won't regret it!

BTW--if you do order one, please let me know what they quote you as a shipping date estimate...

No, it won't hurt anything to set it at 480p. So long as the image covers the whole panel, you'll be just fine.

I'm still on the fence trying to decide between the Pro111FD and the Samsung LN52A750. The review of the 6020 was less than stellar for me. I will certainly love watching Blu Ray movies but I also watch a lot of TV and I have hundreds of SD DVDS. I'm certainly looking forward to the 111FD review. With baited breath I might ad. The Samsung has excellent black levels from what I can see in the stores and is far cheaper and doesn't have the burn-in concerns but the 111FD has the longer warranty and better reputation for picture quality. I sure hope it's like light and day when compared to the 6020. My purchase might just depend on the next review.

You're only reading the bad that D-Nice said. He also mentioned that he didn't know if the softer PQ he was seeing was because he was comparing a 60" TV to a smaller 720p TV. And IMO I think that's what he was seeing. When I compared 50" 720p and 1080p sets in a BB Magnolia I mirrored the user settings on both and the 720p TV had the sharper picture. Factor that together with the fact that a smaller TV typically has a sharper picture than a larger TV and you have your results. From my recollection my 6020's picture is as sharp as my 6010. The non-defeatable noise reduction may have very slightly softened the picture but i think you might be reading into his thoughts too much. If you do go with an elite you will have full control over the picture. I'd take a non-elite over the Sammy any day. And if you want the elite and price isn't a big factor for you then I wouldn't think twice :).

I have the 151 on order (June 26th). I have started to put up the wall mount (VMPL3B) and have noticed something disturbing. In order for me to centre the TV on the wall I will only be able to use 2 studs (16" apart) which will be out of spec for the 151 weight recommendations.

So, I'm thinking about switching to the 141FD. What is the weight of this panel?


Someone else mentioned that the 151 is within the weight specification of the bracket...I cannot confirm this.

I can however give some advice to mounting the wall bracket.

Option 1:
If you want to grab more wall support, you could cut away some drywall, add some cross bracing between the studs. You could use 2x4's, 2x6's or anything you fancy. The big problem with this is you then have to tape, mud, sand, and paint. If you cut the drywall out carefully, you may even be able to reuse it as well. For those that are building a new room or wall, this may be a good way to go to make sure you have plenty of wood to grab in the wall for any size and weight tv.

Option 2:
Mount the bracket to whatever studs you can get ahold of. You can then use drywall anchors, not the plastic insert kind, but the crappy spring loaded ones or screw in kind, to mount the bracket into the drywall between the studs. I have used many of these capable of 50 lbs. each at least. This tv weight will be carried mostly in the vertical direction which is what these drywall anchors are rated for. The regular screws into the studs will hold it against the wall. If you have four screws into studs and four screws into drywall anchors, then your TV will not go anywhere. The neat trick to the drywall anchors is that you can hard mount with the stud screws and then go back and drill the holes for the anchors and use washers if necessary to hold those in place. No need to measure mark those additional holes.

Okay, let's say you have input 1 set to standard picture mode and use this as your input for the break in dvd. On input 2, you use movie mode with the reference settings. The movie mode reference settings are now the same for all inputs = movie mode is the same on inputs 1,2,3,4,5, and 6. Only standard mode can be programmed uniquely for each input.


Oh I see, thanks!

There have been a few questions regarding the performance of this set when fed 480i signals. Speaking from my experience with the 6020 the detail and color are much improved when the set is fed a 1080i/p signal via HDMI. My Dish 622 is set to 1080i and HD looks spectacular. SD is just ok but much better than any other set I have owned before in a HD/wide screeen format. My Toshiba A2 that I picked up on the cheap last Christmas also sends a 1080i signal in both HD DVD and DVD via HDMI with the ability to switch to 480i/720p. Again there is no comparison as the 1080i signal trumps the other two lower rez signals. I have checked this with both calibration discs and real content, so I am convinced that this setting produces the best picture in my system. Lastly for you gamers, I am sending a 1080p signal through my Xbox so games like GOW and COD4 are very cool to play around in as I am seeing finer detail that was not showing up on my previous display like faint smoke trails and additional details to uniforms that I never noticed before. My only real complaints so far on this set is the faint buzz that comes from the front of the panel and lack of RGB controls. Neither one is a deal breaker for me as real world viewing has not been impacted negatively, but Pioneer might run into some consumers that are more demanding than me and will not be happy with these two minor shortcomings.

Another delivery day, another damaged PDP :mad: The PDP "fell over" onto a handtruck during the trip to my home...... which cracked the screen. Common sense would tell the driver that if you only have one frieght item on your truck, it should be strapped to a wall or secured to the floor!!!!!!!

Anyway, I've already spoken to Robert who stated he would, again, find and ship another panel out ASAP.

The wait continues............

I'm not D-Nice, but I just ordered my 111 from Value Electronics. If you are within 200 miles of his store, they will ship it out to you.

[...]

BTW--if you do order one, please let me know what they quote you as a shipping date estimate...

Sweet. Thanks much for that information, nugga22. I think I should be in range, but I'll hit the Google maps and make sure.

Should I go with the 9G, I'll be sure to let you know my shipping date.

Later (gotta hit those maps now),

David

Another delivery day, another damaged PDP :mad: The PDP "fell over" onto a handtruck during the trip to my home...... which cracked the screen. Common sense would tell the driver that if you only have one frieght item on your truck, it should be strapped to a wall or secured to the floor!!!!!!!

Anyway, I've already spoken to Robert who stated he would, again, find and ship another panel out ASAP.

The wait continues............

WOW, thats not good. Hope it works out!

Another delivery day, another damaged PDP :mad: The PDP "fell over" onto a handtruck during the trip to my home...... which cracked the screen. Common sense would tell the driver that if you only have one frieght item on your truck, it should be strapped to a wall or secured to the floor!!!!!!!

Anyway, I've already spoken to Robert who stated he would, again, find and ship another panel out ASAP.

The wait continues............

Some of these frieght companys continue to amaze me with thier stupidity :rolleyes:

Usually bad luck does not strike twice........

Another delivery day, another damaged PDP :mad: The PDP "fell over" onto a handtruck during the trip to my home...... which cracked the screen. Common sense would tell the driver that if you only have one frieght item on your truck, it should be strapped to a wall or secured to the floor!!!!!!!

Anyway, I've already spoken to Robert who stated he would, again, find and ship another panel out ASAP.

The wait continues............

Yikes! :eek: Yes, one item does not travel well in a large box truck.

Yikes! :eek: Yes, one item does not travel well in a large box truck.

I only seen this once when they let this happen by letting it just sit there.

Usually bad luck does not strike twice........

Says who????;)

Says who????;)Chadmak says so... That really sucks for you... Cause you were actually getting this one (right??). Maybe the HDgods are trying to spare you buzzers so they break them instead?:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::e ek::eek:

Another delivery day, another damaged PDP :mad: The PDP "fell over" onto a handtruck during the trip to my home...... which cracked the screen. Common sense would tell the driver that if you only have one frieght item on your truck, it should be strapped to a wall or secured to the floor!!!!!!!

Anyway, I've already spoken to Robert who stated he would, again, find and ship another panel out ASAP.

The wait continues............

That really sucks. This was going to be your personal set too, wasn't it? You didn't break a mirror or walk under a ladder, did you?http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/13.gif

Some of these frieght companys continue to amaze me with thier stupidity :rolleyes:

I'm waiting for a 151 from Robert and I ordered a 60" glass top stand seperately from Jon Alexander Furniture. The stand arrived monday with the glass top (which was 60x21x3/8in. and rated to hold 500 lbs.) smashed in a million pieces in the bottom of one of the two boxes. These incidents apparently happen more than I realized. Much to their credit, Jon Alexander had a replacement glass panel on the way to me the next day at no charge. Hate the delivery stories, but I really appreciated the customer service provided by Jon Alexander.-bird

I guess I'll just have to wait and see what TW looks like on my 151FD. I'm still running the break-in DVD, but should be able to hook up to cable this weekend. If, after awhile, I just don't like the look of it I may start looking into switching to SAT.

BTW, after we get our repective panels broken in and set up, we definately ought to get together and compare notes. Heck...let's even invite D-Nice to drive down to join the party!

-Dean

Im all for it Dean! And I cant wait to be part of the 9G ELITE club soon :)

Yikes! :eek: Yes, one item does not travel well in a large box truck.

It does when strapped properly.

I picked up my own 6020 in a Home Depot rented Cargo Van which had a strap provided for bracing it to the side of the Van. Piece of Cake. Can't imagine a Pro not having it.

Another delivery day, another damaged PDP :mad: The PDP "fell over" onto a handtruck during the trip to my home...... which cracked the screen. Common sense would tell the driver that if you only have one frieght item on your truck, it should be strapped to a wall or secured to the floor!!!!!!!

Anyway, I've already spoken to Robert who stated he would, again, find and ship another panel out ASAP.

The wait continues............

Well, I just received an Olhausen Plaza pool table shipped, and it was strapped to the truck. The rope that was used to strap the box left strap marks on the wood. Worse yet, the apron was fully cracked. Oh, and somebody wrote "James licks ball$" on the slate. I have since filed a claim for 5 grand:D

I'm waiting for a 151 from Robert and I ordered a 60" glass top stand seperately from Jon Alexander Furniture. The stand arrived monday with the glass top (which was 60x21x3/8in. and rated to hold 500 lbs.) smashed in a million pieces in the bottom of one of the two boxes. These incidents apparently happen more than I realized. Much to their credit, Jon Alexander had a replacement glass panel on the way to me the next day at no charge. Hate the delivery stories, but I really appreciated the customer service provided by Jon Alexander.-bird

This (all of this) is absolutely ridiculous. I suspect if you go down to the local unemployment office, you'd find 1 out of every 3 people is a former delivery truck driver. I mean, these guys are costing the delivery companies ALOT of money, whether it be in insurance rates or just plain out of pocket costs. I can't believe the incident rate just by the small sampling on here. Maybe if I order one, I'll ask to have a 2nd "back up" panel shipped 24 hrs later just in case. :D

It does when strapped properly.

I picked up my own 6020 in a Home Depot rented Cargo Van which had a strap provided for bracing it to the side of the Van. Piece of Cake. Can't imagine a Pro not having it.

I'm so freakin' paranoid now that I'm considering buying a cheap air mattress from Walmart to sit the box on (upright of course) in my minivan for the ride home. My own custom "air ride". :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice
I'll send you some tomorrow.

Standard Mode settings? Great, I look forward to them.



Anything on your 6020 Standard mode settings D-Nice?

Odd that it seems a very lackluster A/V visual mode to my eyes out of the box. Yet it's the only one with per input memory retention.

They just posted (June 25th 3pm) the new Pioneer plasmas on the Canadian site ...

Pro 151FD ... $7499 (vs $6500 in the states)
Pro 111FD ... $4999 (vs $5000 in the states)

So, why the extra $1000 for the 151FD??? I could see $500 (3 year warranty) ... but $1000!! Canadians get ripped off again by Pioneer ... but at least not as much ... the 150FD was $8999!!!

http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POCEN/Products/Home+Entertainment/Plasma+TVs+%26+Monitors/Elite+TVs

Another delivery day, another damaged PDP :mad: The PDP "fell over" onto a handtruck during the trip to my home...... which cracked the screen. Common sense would tell the driver that if you only have one frieght item on your truck, it should be strapped to a wall or secured to the floor!!!!!!!

Anyway, I've already spoken to Robert who stated he would, again, find and ship another panel out ASAP.

The wait continues............
Unbelievable. It makes you wonder if these delivery companies even care. Don't care if it's the delivery companies insurance or whatever, we all end up paying more when these costs are passed down.

Keep the faith, D. Not too many times someone gets struck more than twice by lightning.

That is why I am buying my Pioneer from a dealer that delivers and installs the set themselves!!!

They just posted (June 25th 3pm) the new Pioneer plasmas on the Canadian site ...

Pro 151FD ... $7499 (vs $6500 in the states)
Pro 111FD ... $4999 (vs $5000 in the states)

So, why the extra $1000 for the 151FD??? I could see $500 (3 year warranty) ... but $1000!! Canadians get ripped off again by Pioneer ... but at least not as much ... the 150FD was $8999!!!

http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POCEN/Products/Home+Entertainment/Plasma+TVs+%26+Monitors/Elite+TVs

Pioneer Canada still has a pile of 150's in stock so until they move some product
the price will be higher for the 151. I think the MSRP for the 150 is $6999 so for
the $500 difference consumers may buy the 9G 151. They need to discount the
150's even more.

That is why I am buying my Pioneer from a dealer that delivers and installs the set themselves!!!

Its different here because of the savings. ANd you get taken care of anyway.

I just spoke to a dealer in town. They expect the new sets in about 2 weeks.

Interestingly, he also said, speaking to other dealers they are tending to favour the TV's over the monitors due to the fact the monitor is missing auto ambient light circuits.

It will be interesting to see what discount I can get on the new sets ... I know at one dealer I could have got about $2000 off the list for the 150FD (and yes that dealer delivers and installs all their quality audio and video products).

I have found that if you become a regular customer of the top audio/video dealers in this city you will get a much better discount than a first time customer. They really value their regular customers ... and they give excellent in home after sales service.

Question for the experts and expert wannabees alike: If there's an option between the 8G elite 50" and the 9G non-elite 50"....which do you choose? I was wandering through Best Buy today and peaked in the Magnolia section to see if I could actually see a 5020 for myself. They didn't have it on display but they did have the 8G elite there on clearance for (without mentioning price) roughly what the forum sponsors are offering for the 5020! What do you think?

Another delivery day, another damaged PDP :mad: The PDP "fell over" onto a handtruck during the trip to my home...... which cracked the screen. Common sense would tell the driver that if you only have one frieght item on your truck, it should be strapped to a wall or secured to the floor!!!!!!!

Anyway, I've already spoken to Robert who stated he would, again, find and ship another panel out ASAP. The wait continues............

sorry to hear about another loss.
was it the same freight company? thats now $10.5k retail of cracked glass, just to dnice and $13k to chadmark, plus several reports to other members 8g/9g panels cracked as well, ( me too), besides the price of diesel it's getting hard to believe they can ship them for under $500, ugh.

but i thought robert would not ship Elites over 200-250 miles??

more conspiracy theories, besides locking out 9g owners out of the sm and secretly logging entries once that access is found maybe they are adding gps enabled rfid tags and monitoring elite deliveries outside the sales restrictions from the Elite dealers??????

more conspiracy theories, besides locking out 9g owners out of the sm and secretly logging entries once that access is found maybe they are adding gps enabled rfid tags and monitoring elite deliveries outside the sales restrictions from the Elite dealers??????

LOL but it might be different for RObert this time since its an eval unit

Question for the experts and expert wannabees alike: If there's an option between the 8G elite 50" and the 9G non-elite 50"....which do you choose? I was wandering through Best Buy today and peaked in the Magnolia section to see if I could actually see a 5020 for myself. They didn't have it on display but they did have the 8G elite there on clearance for (without mentioning price) roughly what the forum sponsors are offering for the 5020! What do you think?

that is not a good deal on a clearance 8G 720p elite--and probably a floor model as well. If it is exactly the same price, I personally would go for the 5020. However, I actually went for the 8G elite because Tweeter had it for much less than the 5020 online price.

that is not a good deal on a clearance 8G 720p elite--and probably a floor model as well. If it is exactly the same price, I personally would go for the 5020. However, I actually went for the 8G elite because Tweeter had it for much less than the 5020 online price.

Yea D-NICE's opinion is similar in terms of choosing the 9th Gen. Well and mine too :)

The room light sensor on by default in Optimum mode. You cannot turn it off.

THX D,,,

LOL but it might be different for RObert this time since its an eval unit


OH, I see now, :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

my first Elite was sent well over that "restriction" limit and it was taken out old school style by Pioneer using some drunk/dumb ass forklift operator trained to play pick up plasma boxes with the fork ends through both sides and end of the box. :(:(

that is not a good deal on a clearance 8G 720p elite--and probably a floor model as well. If it is exactly the same price, I personally would go for the 5020. However, I actually went for the 8G elite because Tweeter had it for much less than the 5020 online price.

did he say it was a Pro1150 or a Pro110? since it was open and now older model stock it could have easily been a Pro110.

Usually bad luck does not strike twice........But incompetence strikes again and again forever! :eek:

I'm sorry to hear of all these demolished Kuros. I was incredibly relieved when they lifted the door and the box looked as pristine as the day it left the factory floor.

I have enjoyed all the posts and reading, and will continue to read and enjoy everyone's contributions, but the price was just toooooooooooo good to pass up, so I pulled the trigger and got the 5010 today at Costco. I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo excited, NO buzzing, NO streaking/blotching, and as far as I can tell for the 30 minutes it has been running, NO stuck or dead pixels!!! I have a feeling I will be visiting the 8G settings thread soon :) although I have it in movie mode now and did some minor tweaking. Don't have the break-in disc, I have Antz on DVD running in repeat mode. Anyway, hope everyone gets the 9G they want. I will post pics of my system in the near future, 43" Pio is now officially in the bedroom.

John
ps: has anyone tried to cut down/shorten the "legs" on the stand. I hate that gap (not hooking up the speaker), and my center channel is mounted to the wall and is being slightly interferred with at the present height. I really don't want to purchase an Elite stand at the retail pricing they go for. Thanks.

Well, I just got back from Best Buy's dedicated theatre room where they had the Pio 5010 and the Panny 800u. Let me preface this by saying that I am buying a new TV this year since I am moving to Sweden, and I just recently sold my Panny 700u. I am between Plasma (5020 or the 800u) and LCD (Sony XBR6 or xbr8), the only "pro" of LCD in my mind being daytime viewing, and the hope that the XBR8 can deliver Kuro blacks and improved motion handling WITHOUT making the screen shiny. Best buy also had the Sony z4100 on display on an end cap.

More background....I have been enthralled with the depth and accuracy of Pio's for about a year and a half now. First saw an Elite in Tweeter's and about fell over. Then I saw an Elite in another store running Spidey 3 on BR. I was simply astounded at how the picture "held together" during the fast motion scenes such as when they are having the "hoverboard" chase scene in the city at night and in the alleyway. Not only were the blacks deep and dark, but the entire picture clearly benefited from that improved black level...a backdrop if you will by which everything had added creamy depth and a realistic sheen. But the motion.....my goodness...the motion. This was the way the movie was intended, not the blurred mess that LCD offers up. After seeing motion properly done, you will never see the motion of an LCD the same again.

But I have never seen the 5010 with a BR source in a darkened room (actually the BB room is semi-darkened). My first thought was that there was something wrong with the Panny...had to be in some weird mode making the PQ look pathetic. The Pio had DEEP blacks that made the bars match the bezel (in a totally darkened room the bars would be "just" distinguishable.). The bars on the Panny looked grey. Now, I had the 700u and knew that the 800u HAD to be somewhat of an improvement in terms of Black level. I asked the BB employee what was up and they said it was calibrated! With the remote we found out it was in THX mode! Maybe someone had screwed with the THX mode settings, must have....

Once we switched the picture mode to custom or vivid, then the Black level appeared better probably due to the increase in the brightness of the picture, which serves to create a contrast to the human eye. But even when the pictures modes seemed to be in about the same mode, the Pio simply outperformed the Panny. The black level made all the difference in creating DEPTH in every detail of the picture. The Panny is a very good set, and I wouldn't be disapointed to own it, but definitely a bit regretful after having seen the 5010. One of the BR previws in the loop was Spidey 3, and I can say that they 5010 was very comparable to the Elite I saw playing the same scene. Obviously one would have to get them side by side, calibrate them, and nitpick. But sufficed to say, the 5010 looked "as good" as the Elite in a very casual observational manner.

The V4100 was nice, and an improvement over the XBR4. Nice set, but still suffers from degredation during motion like every other LCD.

So now it is down to the 5020 or the xbr8. But man o man, what a set the 5010 is. If I could get it for $1000 less than a 5020 I would go for it. But since the prices of the 5020 are lower...take the extra PQ. But is mind BOGGLING to think the PQ will be improved.

Also, pretty telling that the 800u gets smoked by LAST year's Kuros....:eek:

edit: the 800u was brighter than the 5010. I didn't care for how bright it was........ killed shadow detail. But if properly calibrated, a little extra brightness could create more of a contrast for the eye. I know the 5020 is supposedly brighter than the 5010, I wonder if the 5020 will be brighter in the context of still maintaining an accurate picture with great shadow detail.

My boss knows that I'm knowledgeable about TVs (or at least that I can pass myself off as that way since I look at this site).

His A/V installer recommended getting an Elite 1150 for his bedroom where the viewing distance is about 20ft from the bed and 10ft from the sitting area. At this distance I know that 720P will be fine but I can't decide if it makes sense to go with that model. Part of me feels that he will be better off with more of a budget set like the Panasonic PX50u and save $1000 from the quoted price. I also can't decide if he wants a high quality set if it is worth spending a bit more and getting the 5020.

I think he will want to buy it from his custom installer to save on hassle and the installer is unlikely to discount the 5020. So considering that we have to deal with the pricing that he is going to get which would you recommend?

Panasonic 50PX80U
Pioneer 1150 ($1k more than Panasonic)
Pioneer 5020 ($1000-1500 more than 1150).

Thanks.

the PRO-1150

It's a very common misconception that 1080p displays cannot possibly handle SD content well. I just couldn't let that stand without commenting on it. A 1080p display can handle SD content just as well as an SD display - if the scaling algorithm is really good. Sadly most TVs don't have good scaling algorithms. That's why SD content often sucks on a 1080p display.

It goes beyond that and is very much influenced by the quality of the SD signal via the service provider. FIOS provides what is probably the best SD signal around and it looks excellent (for SD) on my 60" Elite 150. So if you start out with a good quality SD signal, then any failing may indeed be the result of poor scaling. But you can't blame a lousy looking SD picture on the Kuro (or any panel) if the incoming SD signal is poop to begin with.

did he say it was a Pro1150 or a Pro110? since it was open and now older model stock it could have easily been a Pro110.

ah, good point. I really doubt Magnolia/BB has a Pro110 at that low of a price, but who knows...

These are becoming cliche at this point (but in a good way), but kudos to Robert at VE. Took delivery of my 6020 yesterday to replace a four year-old Panny 6UY 50". Luckily I had left plenty of room between my wall mounted speakers so I just had to swap the mount and run some new cables.

Also the cliche thanks to D-Nice for all the testing and reference settings!

Oh, and all you other people too. ;)

http://lifeinpixels.com/images/6020_avs.jpg

the PRO-1150

Speaking of which, any good deals on these anywhere?

thx

bob

Wow Tony, that's a gorgeous home theater room!!! Mounting the TV on the wall even though you could easily put it on a stand certainly works great!

I have to say that the speakers are sure strange looking though. :)

These are becoming cliche at this point (but in a good way), but kudos to Robert at VE. Took delivery of my 6020 yesterday to replace a four year-old Panny 6UY 50".


I'm going to be replacing a Panasonic 7UY 50" with either a 6020 or 151(probably a 6020) and I was just wondering how much more impressed you are by the KURO over your Panny. I'm still pretty pleased by the picture from my existing panel, but I expect the KURO to be a revelation in terms of PQ. How would you assess the difference between the two panels?

I'm sorry to hear of all these demolished Kuros. I was incredibly relieved when they lifted the door and the box looked as pristine as the day it left the factory floor.

On the other hand, so many broken sets should help with Pioneer's sales figures...:)

Perhaps, just maybe, Pioneer is secretly paying the delivery guys a few hundred to accidentally drop a few of these sets. Hmmmm. And the buzzers and pixel-challenged sets that we are seeing delivered were from those delivery guys who wouldn't play the game... Coincidence...? I think not!

Glad you received your set intact. Enjoy!

Another delivery day, another damaged PDP :mad: The PDP "fell over" onto a handtruck during the trip to my home...... which cracked the screen. Common sense would tell the driver that if you only have one frieght item on your truck, it should be strapped to a wall or secured to the floor!!!!!!!

Anyway, I've already spoken to Robert who stated he would, again, find and ship another panel out ASAP.

The wait continues............
Hi D-Nice

I am repeating the same post b/c you probably missed the one from before I addressed to you

That is so nice of you to do for doing this time taking review. I guess you really enjoy doing this stuff esp. if you are not a dealer.

I noticed in one of your older posts about using oppo 80 and put it in pass thru mode for standard DVD. Do you still stand by that even after noticing that the inbuilt scaler is not living up to expecations in the 6020 as far as standard DVD is concerned


Also I have sony DVD player which also has an option to turn off the progressive scan function.Do you think that would do the same as oppo980 as far as straight pass through ...or is there more to this than just turning off the progr... scan function

Do you have any idea if the new pioneer BD 151 has an unaltered pass thru for stand DVD just like oppo980

ah, good point. I really doubt Magnolia/BB has a Pro110 at that low of a price, but who knows...

It was the Pro110. I was surprised as well. Still think I'll probably just get the 5020 which seems to be what everyone else is saying too. But was wondering..seemed like a good deal on an elite, even at a year old.

Yea D-NICE's opinion is similar in terms of choosing the 9th Gen. Well and mine too :)
Hi Roman

When do you expect the pro141FD to become available....any news yet?

I was away for a few days and I turned my pc on only to see 14 new pages plus D-Nice's review...

First, a big THANK YOU to D-Nice for taking the time to write such an objective review which is technical, detailed and at the same time addresses a lot of questions and concerns that have been expressed in this thread.

As I have decided to get the 151, the blotching remains a concern for me. I assume that the 151 will have it also. I know D-Nice said it's only noticeable when the whole screen is black, and I would be grateful if one of the Kuro owners will expand on this a little: what color are the blotches, are they greenish? How big are they, and are they really easy to see on the black screen or do you have to look for them to see them? How about on the dark scenes of a movie, are they also there?

Thanks!

Hi Roman

When do you expect the pro141FD to become available....any news yet?

+1
And has "official" pricing been announced ???
Speculation says 141 = 151 in pricing.
True or No ??? Thanks for any input.

With all those damaged units i'm a bit skeptical about ordering one from a forum sponser and having it shipped. I remember a while back someone suggested we keep track of what freight companies are being used. Was that ever followed through. I mean it's one thing for a set to be damaged from the ride but, its entirely wrong to not strap it to the wall of the truck. Ok, what if I order a PDP and it arrives and looks fine only to have fallen over in the truck and yet maybe not damaging the screen breaks something loose inside that doesnt affect me until later on. I'm not telling you forum sponsers how to run your business but, I'm rather throwing a suggestion out that maybe you guys need to use a different frieght company.

Wow Tony, that's a gorgeous home theater room!!! Mounting the TV on the wall even though you could easily put it on a stand certainly works great!

I have to say that the speakers are sure strange looking though. :)

Thanks. It came a bit piecemeal over the years. My first stand couldn't support even the old 50" Panny so it was the wall mount. Then I got the new stand because it aesthetically was more balancing. Then when I got the 6020 there was such a huge hole and other stuff on the wall it was less work to just mount again. For me though part of the "magic" of the plasma is the ability to wall mount so why not. Every time I see it on the wall it makes me feel good. Like I'm partly living in the "future" promised me in childhood. :)

The speakers are KEF "Egg"s. They matched the Panny a bit better. With the high gloss bezel of 6020 I now want black glossy speakers to match. This is how they get us... and if you're on this forum, you know what I mean!

I'm going to be replacing a Panasonic 7UY 50" with either a 6020 or 151(probably a 6020) and I was just wondering how much more impressed you are by the KURO over your Panny. I'm still pretty pleased by the picture from my existing panel, but I expect the KURO to be a revelation in terms of PQ. How would you assess the difference between the two panels?

My first impression was not all that good actually. I was watching D* SD and HD and the SD was just awful. After watching a Blu-Ray disc though I was convinced any shortcomings were the source - not the 6020. The 1080p stuff blew me away. I think it's the nature of the 1080p native resolution. The old Panny at 768p just made the lower quality sources look better. The 6020 is not as forgiving with sources "beneath" it. :)

I'm also still playing with the settings that look best to me. I'm using D-Nice's movie mode reference settings right now and they are bit different than the Panny (though I am sure more ISF accurate - it's still tough to switch from what you're used to). I still need to play a bit with it but I think I'm close. I just wish everything was 1080p!

Thanks for sharing your findings, Tony. I know it will be a big jump from 50" to 60" and after being used to the Panny picture I'm sure the Kuro will be quite different. I can't wait to watch HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray discs on one, though. :cool:

As I have decided to get the 151, the blotching remains a concern for me. I assume that the 151 will have it also. I know D-Nice said it's only noticeable when the whole screen is black, and I would be grateful if one of the Kuro owners will expand on this a little: what color are the blotches, are they greenish?I understood D-Nice to say that the blotches that he saw were only visible when the display was on a channel with no signal or input of any kind. I think he referred to zero signal.

Any thoughts other than what was written in Dnice's review on 9g pioneers versus the 800 or 850 lines from panny this year? I was set on a 50" 800 but after reading the review maybe it'd be worth the extra money to get a 5020...any thoughts?

As I have decided to get the 151, the blotching remains a concern for me. I assume that the 151 will have it also. I know D-Nice said it's only noticeable when the whole screen is black, and I would be grateful if one of the Kuro owners will expand on this a little: what color are the blotches, are they greenish?
Thanks!

Assuming it's what I've seen on my set as well it's more of a few large black blob effects within the blackness on a non-active, all black screen. No colors persay, just black within black. Never see it during a movie or any other actual content even in the darkest of scenes.

Not an issue at all for any practical use of set. I suppose if you wanted to you could view it as a "feature". ;) Sort of screen saver design appearing briefly during inactive all black screens. Odd though. 1st Plasma for me so not sure any other Plasma has the "feature".

With all those damaged units i'm a bit skeptical about ordering one from a forum sponser and having it shipped. I remember a while back someone suggested we keep track of what freight companies are being used. Was that ever followed through. I mean it's one thing for a set to be damaged from the ride but, its entirely wrong to not strap it to the wall of the truck. Ok, what if I order a PDP and it arrives and looks fine only to have fallen over in the truck and yet maybe not damaging the screen breaks something loose inside that doesnt affect me until later on. I'm not telling you forum sponsers how to run your business but, I'm rather throwing a suggestion out that maybe you guys need to use a different frieght company.

There will always be a chance of screen breakage.
The only alternative is to buy from a B&M and pay alot more $.
But that does not mean you still can't have the results you speak of. The Panels are shipped the the B&M also. So they may look perfect but later show signs of defects.

So whats the big difference? The difference is that you can take the set right back to a B&M and get a replacement That is, if you have a Truck or means of transporting it back to the B&M store. If not you have to wait for them to schedule deivery of your new set, which is exactly what the forum sponsors will do but probably faster than BB will . If the set is from a forum sponsor you can just reject it and they will expedite you a new one pronto.

The only other alternative would be to buy from Big river so you have the 30-day return window. But from experience I can tell you, Amazon uses CEVA (eagle) and they are horrible at delivering Plasma televisions (at least they were in my case). And if something goes wrong you won't get to have the feel of an actual person helping you thru the process like you will with a forum sponsor, you will have to deal with call centers in india and other far away countries.

I would not worry at all about buying from a forum sponsor.
I bought my 6020 from Robert at Value electronics and am happy I did. NO broken screen, no holes in the box, not one dead pixel, and I feel confident that if something happens Robert will be there to help me deal with Pioneer if needed.
I think the manufacturer should start adding "tip and tell" and Shock sensors on the Boxes.
Those sensors woul make alot of people more confident in buying from online vendors I bet.
This way you would immediatly know if the TV has ever been Tipped over or if it was ever "ran into" or hit with a forklift or something.

Thanks htwaits and Dahlsim!! That's what I wanted to know!!

D-Nice,

From your review I believe that you are indicating that it is not just the color adjustments that do not have the flexibility, but also that the up-converting of SD material in the 6020FD is not as good as it potentially could be resulting in soft pictures.

BB are delivering a 6020FD tomorrow (yes I decided to pay the extra and go with delivery from a B&M dealer – I am very risk averse) to replace my old 65xwx20b CRT HD RPTV. I currently feed my TV through a DVDO VP50 and am pretty pleased with the de-interlacing and up-converting capability of this video processor and therefore I was still going to feed the 6020FD with a processed picture for less than 1080p signals.

If the processing in the SD VP50 is better than the processing in the 6020FD do you believe that feeding it an already processed picture in 1080p would be the way to go?

Thanks

Mike

Thanks. It came a bit piecemeal over the years. My first stand couldn't support even the old 50" Panny so it was the wall mount. Then I got the new stand because it aesthetically was more balancing. Then when I got the 6020 there was such a huge hole and other stuff on the wall it was less work to just mount again. For me though part of the "magic" of the plasma is the ability to wall mount so why not. Every time I see it on the wall it makes me feel good. Like I'm partly living in the "future" promised me in childhood. :)

The speakers are KEF "Egg"s. They matched the Panny a bit better. With the high gloss bezel of 6020 I now want black glossy speakers to match. This is how they get us... and if you're on this forum, you know what I mean!

That is a sweet setup. How do you like the sound of those KEFs, relative to typical floorstanding towers? I'm wondering if you lose much in sound in exchange for the esthetic benefit of the smaller size.

sorry to hear about another loss.
was it the same freight company?Nope. However, it's the same company and driver that delivered the replacement 6020FD.

but i thought robert would not ship Elites over 200-250 miles??Pioneer NA approved this shipment.

Anything on your 6020 Standard mode settings D-Nice? My apologies, I completely forgot. I'll post them tonight.

I noticed in one of your older posts about using oppo 80 and put it in pass thru mode for standard DVD. Do you still stand by that even after noticing that the inbuilt scaler is not living up to expecations in the 6020 as far as standard DVD is concernedYes


Also I have sony DVD player which also has an option to turn off the progressive scan function.Do you think that would do the same as oppo980 as far as straight pass through ...or is there more to this than just turning off the progr... scan functionCan it pass an unaltered 480i signal over HDMI?

Do you have any idea if the new pioneer BD 151 has an unaltered pass thru for stand DVD just like oppo980You mean the BDP-51? Yes it will.