I understood D-Nice to say that the blotches that he saw were only visible when the display was on a channel with no signal or input of any kind. I think he referred to zero signal.Correct :)

what exactly are blotches? i have heard the term on here before, but dont know what it is....

D-Nice,

From your review I believe that you are indicating that it is not just the color adjustments that do not have the flexibility, but also that the up-converting of SD material in the 6020FD is not as good as it potentially could be resulting in soft pictures.I did not use any type of upconversion from a SD DVD player. I specifically wanted to see how the 6020FD performed with a raw, untouched 480i signal.

If the processing in the SD VP50 is better than the processing in the 6020FD do you believe that feeding it an already processed picture in 1080p would be the way to go?If it's better, use it :)

Chadmak says so... That really sucks for you... Cause you were actually getting this one (right??). Maybe the HDgods are trying to spare you buzzers so they break them instead?:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::e ek::eek:

I think you got the wrong guy, my comment was an inside joke of sorts between myself and Chris. Me being one of the unlucky to end up with two panels with broken glass.

Yea D-NICE's opinion is similar in terms of choosing the 9th Gen. Well and mine too :)

Seems like a lot of people are voting for a TV on which the color can never be right. I thought there was a pre- and post-calibration report on a 8G Elite that showed with D-Nice settings in pure mode the color points were nearly spot on WITHOUT the calibration.

For anyone who finds MOVIE mode a little dark or would like to use DRE as an answer to 'perceived softness', there doesn't appear to be a A/V mode on these 5020s that is acceptable.

And if you ever had any intentions of calibrating your 9G Non-Elite to get it close to the 9G Elite (like with the 8Gs) it seems impossible unless the SERVICE menu can be accessed.

Something that will never be achieved on the 9G Non-Elite if the service mode cannot be accessed.You cannot correct the color points in the SM.

Seems like a lot of people are voting for a TV on which the color can never be right. I thought there was a pre- and post-calibration report on a 8G Elite that showed with D-Nice settings in pure mode the color points were nearly spot on WITHOUT the calibration. Something that will never be achieved on the 9G Non-Elite if the service mode cannot be accessed.

For anyone who finds MOVIE mode a little dark or would like to use DRE as an answer to 'perceived softness', there doesn't appear to be a A/V mode on these 5020s that is acceptable.

And if you ever had any intentions of calibrating your 9G Non-Elite to get it close to the 9G Elite (like with the 8Gs) it seems impossible unless the SERVICE menu can be accessed.


While this is true, I for one still find the deeper blacks of the 9G to offset any slight loss in color accuracy. Overall to me it's like a +4 -2= 2 kind of thing. I can see why some would opt for the Elite, but when all is said and done the 6020 still makes my jaw drop. ;)

http://www.hdtvlounge.net/pioneer/krp600m/


What do you guys make of that? I am trying to find out if the Elite's will be available in europe....particularly in Sweden. While googling I stumbled upon this. Seperate media receiver......64mm at it’s thickest.........Sounds intersting.

Anyone aware of this, or have any info......

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/content/press/news/krpPlasma.html


New link. Official info from Pioneer Europe!

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/content/press/news/krpPlasma.html


New link. Official info from Pioneer Europe!

KRM-500A/600A doesn't have HD tuner it seems...

That is a sweet setup. How do you like the sound of those KEFs, relative to typical floorstanding towers? I'm wondering if you lose much in sound in exchange for the esthetic benefit of the smaller size.

I had some Sony floorstanding speakers years ago. Granted they weren't best speakers money could buy but I didn't find I lost that much going to the KEFs. The giant sub (off to the left of the stand) helps a bunch. Even if there is a bit of audio loss, I'm more of a videophile anyway. I'll take the trade for the nice small units.

Hi Roman

When do you expect the pro141FD to become available....any news yet?

Nothing definite from dealers, I will keep posted.

no cnet review yet, boooooooooo.

no cnet review yet, boooooooooo.CNet reviews are kinda lacking. HT Magazine, Sound and Vision, and Ultimate A/V are MUCH better.

cnet should hire D nice for their reviews :)

With all those damaged units i'm a bit skeptical about ordering one from a forum sponser and having it shipped. I remember a while back someone suggested we keep track of what freight companies are being used. Was that ever followed through. I mean it's one thing for a set to be damaged from the ride but, its entirely wrong to not strap it to the wall of the truck. Ok, what if I order a PDP and it arrives and looks fine only to have fallen over in the truck and yet maybe not damaging the screen breaks something loose inside that doesnt affect me until later on. I'm not telling you forum sponsers how to run your business but, I'm rather throwing a suggestion out that maybe you guys need to use a different frieght company.

it would be kinda hard since they are shipped out of the pioneer assembly plant and sent to several various pioneer distirbution centers around the US. then ship out to customers. many times even when the sponsors/dealers contract with one large shipping company it still may wind up with smaller local companies contracted by the larger companies.

my first Elite was shipped using AIT which is a large shipping co. supposedly with a good track record shipping Pioneer panels. It came with the paperwork from them it didn't even mention the small two truck company they had end contracted with. it was air frieghter in and picked up by this local 2 truck delivery service and delivered the last 3 miles from the airport loading docks.

it wasn't strapped in the back of the truck either. it was on a pallet but that only made it seem worse to tip over since it was the same size of the box bottom. but certainly would make it easier to forklift.......hell no. it had forklift damage on both large flat sides and one end. wtf, how in the hell does one plasma box get damaged in three different locations by the forklift tongues??????? thats just wrong for someone to be that careless/incompetent.

luckily my second Elite got air freighted and truck delivered in great shape the next week.

I have a couple of questions, 1 of which has been asked but not answered I believe.

After a couple of unsuccessful attempts to burn a break-in dvd I downloaded the images to a usb drive and played them as a slide show (directly from the drive, through the input on the side of the tv). As someone stated earlier, however, there is a 5sec delay (or black screen) between images when doing this. Do these "black screens" between pictures interfere with the break-in procedure? I can probably figure out how to burn a disk correctly, but like the idea of using a drive rather than running a player.

The next question will likely earn me the scorn of many readers here BUT...When I bought my tv from BB I agreed to purchase the following services : tv installation, isf calibration, and a consultation. I was told that I can "return" these items (get my $ back) before they are performed. Any opinions on having BB provide these services? I was wary of using BB, but was told any ISF calibration is the same. Also, since you can't get into the service menu on a 5020, does that negate much of the benefit of a calibration? (FWIW, this is just for family tv/movie viewing. I am sure I am not as discerning as many people on this forum and would only want to pay for a calibration if it it made a very significant improvement in picture).

Thanks, D.S.

ah, good point. I really doubt Magnolia/BB has a Pro110 at that low of a price, but who knows...

yup well he mentions it was the Pro110, i was just guessing considering the double facts of open box and older model with the fact bb has pro111 in warehouses ready to ship to the stores now. if it had low hours on the panel that could be a dang good deal for someone.

......When I bought my tv from BB I agreed to purchase the following services : tv installation, isf calibration, and a consultation. I was told that I can "return" these items (get my $ back) before they are performed. Any opinions on having BB provide these services? I was wary of using BB, but was told any ISF calibration is the same. Also, since you can't get into the service menu on a 5020, does that negate much of the benefit of a calibration? (FWIW, this is just for family tv/movie viewing. I am sure I am not as discerning as many people on this forum and would only want to pay for a calibration if it it made a very significant improvement in picture). Thanks, D.S.

hey no scorn.
yes, return or pass on the isf calibration for the 5020 from bb. if they install it they should run through your setup, remote etc.

As for as a "consultation" goes i wouldnt pay for anything extra from them.

just use some of d-nice's recommended settings and adjust as you see fit for your viewing setup and the 5020 should make an excellent plasma for you.

I have a couple of questions, 1 of which has been asked but not answered I believe.

After a couple of unsuccessful attempts to burn a break-in dvd I downloaded the images to a usb drive and played them as a slide show (directly from the drive, through the input on the side of the tv). As someone stated earlier, however, there is a 5sec delay (or black screen) between images when doing this. Do these "black screens" between pictures interfere with the break-in procedure? I can probably figure out how to burn a disk correctly, but like the idea of using a drive rather than running a player.

The next question will likely earn me the scorn of many readers here BUT...When I bought my tv from BB I agreed to purchase the following services : tv installation, isf calibration, and a consultation. I was told that I can "return" these items (get my $ back) before they are performed. Any opinions on having BB provide these services? I was wary of using BB, but was told any ISF calibration is the same. Also, since you can't get into the service menu on a 5020, does that negate much of the benefit of a calibration? (FWIW, this is just for family tv/movie viewing. I am sure I am not as discerning as many people on this forum and would only want to pay for a calibration if it it made a very significant improvement in picture).

Thanks, D.S.

Would I be presumptuous to ask what Best Buy charges for these services?

Also, since there's no access to the RGB color points in the service menu, I'd give a week's salary to hear the BB tech's explanation of how he intends to do a proper (ISF) calibration without the ability to adjust the white balance. Do you have a small pocket recorder around??? :D

Also, what exactly is a 'consultation'?

A_C

"Consultation" - Best Buy rep comes out and tells you what they are going to do.

"Calibration" - Best Buy rep comes out and actually does what they say they are going to do (hopefully).

So you get charged just for telling you what they are going to do (my assumption).

As someone stated earlier, however, there is a 5sec delay (or black screen) between images when doing this. Do these "black screens" between pictures interfere with the break-in procedure?Yes. It shouldn't hurt your display, but nothing is happening during those five second delays.

I can probably figure out how to burn a disk correctly, but like the idea of using a drive rather than running a player.Have you gotten instructions for how to burn the right DVD?

When I bought my tv from BB I agreed to purchase the following services : tv installation, isf calibration, and a consultation.TV Installation: Is this delivery and setup on a table top? Or does it include mounting the display on a wall and running cables through the wall?

ISF Calibration: Use D-Nices settings and wait for the dust to settle before you hire a professional calibration from someone with good references. Keep an eye out for any 5020 or 6020 calibration reports from UMR. If he agrees to work on these sets then a calibration will be worthwhile if you still want one. You may be happy with D-Nice's settings.

Consultation: That sounds like a sales pitch for over priced cables. Don't my Monster anything from BB! :eek:

I was told that I can "return" these items (get my $ back) before they are performed.Do it! Depending on what you want them to do, BB might be alright for the installation. Again, beware of being sold overpriced cables and other stuff. Their plan is to pad your purchase with high priced extras.

I was wary of using BB, but was told any ISF calibration is the same. Who told you that? :eek:

Also, since you can't get into the service menu on a 5020, does that negate much of the benefit of a calibration?We don't know that for sure yet. It's the "dust that has to settle".

(FWIW, this is just for family tv/movie viewing.That's how we all use them. ;)

I am sure I am not as discerning as many people on this forum and would only want to pay for a calibration if it it made a very significant improvement in picture).If it's a good idea to have the xx20 sets calibrated then owner reports will start showing up in the flat panel list that is linked at the bottom of my most. You can read about owner reactions to having other models calibrated by following that link now.

There is no hurry. :)

I got my 6020 earlier this week (woot!) and have been playing around with it while running D-Nice's reference settings in movie mode. I will say that my eyes must not be used to a properly calibrated picture because with the D-Nice settings the overall picture seems so dark to me. A few other forum posters have suggested that they played with the color setting on theirs and bumped it up a few notches from the -5 reference recommendation to something more like -2 or 0. I realize that changing this might put the display out of a proper tuned spec but my eyes are telling me different.

Has anyone else strayed from D-Nice's recommended settings in movie mode? I have heard positive reports from some owners after adjusting the color setting up a few notches from the recommended -5 setting. I am thrilled overall with the display but an just a litte concerned with the above things I mentioned.

Thanks for the replies re: BB services

I didn't post the $ for items because I wasn't sure that was allowed. Since I was asked, I will assume that is OK now and may be something others are curious about. The "flat panel mounting" cost 500-50=450 (11% tv cost @MSRP) plus the sanus mount itself was 250-50=200 (5%). The calibration was 300 (8% msrp), the warranty was 500 (13%), and delivery was 60 (2%)

The "consultation" was 100 (3%) but if I have speakers installed this will be credited towards their charge for that (400 or 10% for 7 speakers). My understanding of the consultation was that this was so they could determine speaker placement, etc. So they do pretty much "charge for telling you what they are going to do".

Given that some people need help connecting their tv or programming their remote I guess I should elaborate on my "lack of knowledge" - I don't have the most elaborate setup, don't know how to measure BTB/WTW, wouldn't know how to run speaker wires through the walls, etc.

I have, however, hooked up 5 components and my computer to the tv through a receiver and programmed a harmony remote to control it all. I also have a BS in Ind. Engineering, so I do have a basic understanding of things. I just don't have the in depth knowledge that many people have on this forum.

We actually have someone who is going to build some built-ins in this room (a multi-purpose room - tv, computer, kids play area, etc - not an elaborate home theater or anything). I may see if he can mount the tv for me at a better price.

To be honest, I said I didn't think I wanted the BB services, but basically caved as they insisted that I needed these things. I was assured i could "return" them and get my money back. Hopefully it won't be a problem (if I can find someone to install the tv,/speakers), since I have only "received" the delivery.

Anyway...Thanks for the responses.

omeany

I saw a 151 in BB and the screen was not completely filled! There was a quarter inch Gray space between the panel and the bezel that was extremely noticeable.

Is this normal for the new 9G's? My 8G 150 fills the entire screen so the bezel blends in.

BB sales rep did tell me that now do calibrations! ISF I ask and he tells me Yes.

omeany, i would cancel the isf $300, the mounting service $450, the warranty $500 and the consultation $100. thats $1350.

the $60 delivery is ok as they can open and check its all good for you right in front of you.

get your guy to mount it. sounds like you can handle the rest and we'll be here to help as well anytime you need it.

hope they didn't sell you any high priced cables??

I got my 6020 earlier this week (woot!) and have been playing around with it while running D-Nice's reference settings in movie mode. I will say that my eyes must not be used to a properly calibrated picture because with the D-Nice settings the overall picture seems so dark to me.

Which I think is a common reaction to having a set properly calibrated for movies. I had a similar feeling when I 1st had a set calibrated. Thought it was way too dark. After a while though I appreciated the accuracy and detail of calibrated PQ.

This doesn't mean that other settings cannot be visually appealing IMHO. Depends also on the type and quality of material.

I prefer to keep one setting as close to proper calibration as possible and then work with the other settings for various types of different looks, some brighter and some just different. Just switch to these when no videophiles are looking. :o

I may see if he can mount the tv for me at a better price.I'm sure he can. Locating studs and using lag bolts is all that's involved.

Are you saying that you are buying seven speakers from BB for $400? That's a tricky area too.

To be honest, I said I didn't think I wanted the BB services, but basically caved as they insisted that I needed these things. I was assured i could "return" them and get my money back. Hopefully it won't be a problem (if I can find someone to install the tv,/speakers), since I have only "received" the delivery.

Anyway...Thanks for the responses.

omeany

Well, it's nice to see they finally stopped hypnotizing people into thinking they need expensive HDMI cables... Now they shove this stuff down peoples' throats.

I'd definitely return the ISF calibration (since it'll probably be impossible to do) and the consultation, which you clearly don't need.

A_C

I saw a 151 in BB and the screen was not completely filled! There was a quarter inch Gray space between the panel and the bezel that was extremely noticeable.

Is this normal for the new 9G's? My 8G 150 fills the entire screen so the bezel blends in.

BB sales rep did tell me that now do calibrations! ISF I ask and he tells me Yes.Didn't you ask this question two days ago here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14151378&postcount=6092

And I responded to it here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14155798&postcount=6156

I got my 6020 earlier this week (woot!) and have been playing around with it while running D-Nice's reference settings in movie mode. I will say that my eyes must not be used to a properly calibrated picture because with the D-Nice settings the overall picture seems so dark to me. A few other forum posters have suggested that they played with the color setting on theirs and bumped it up a few notches from the -5 reference recommendation to something more like -2 or 0. I realize that changing this might put the display out of a proper tuned spec but my eyes are telling me different.

Has anyone else strayed from D-Nice's recommended settings in movie mode? I have heard positive reports from some owners after adjusting the color setting up a few notches from the recommended -5 setting. I am thrilled overall with the display but an just a litte concerned with the above things I mentioned.

They're called "reference" settings for a reason. Reference: "an indicator that orients you generally." It's your television. Use whatever settings look best to you in your particular environment.

Thanks for the replies re: BB services

I didn't post the $ for items because I wasn't sure that was allowed. Since I was asked, I will assume that is OK now and may be something others are curious about. The "flat panel mounting" cost 500-50=450 (11% tv cost @MSRP) plus the sanus mount itself was 250-50=200 (5%). The calibration was 300 (8% msrp), the warranty was 500 (13%), and delivery was 60 (2%)

The "consultation" was 100 (3%) but if I have speakers installed this will be credited towards their charge for that (400 or 10% for 7 speakers). My understanding of the consultation was that this was so they could determine speaker placement, etc. So they do pretty much "charge for telling you what they are going to do".

Given that some people need help connecting their tv or programming their remote I guess I should elaborate on my "lack of knowledge" - I don't have the most elaborate setup, don't know how to measure BTB/WTW, wouldn't know how to run speaker wires through the walls, etc.

I have, however, hooked up 5 components and my computer to the tv through a receiver and programmed a harmony remote to control it all. I also have a BS in Ind. Engineering, so I do have a basic understanding of things. I just don't have the in depth knowledge that many people have on this forum.

We actually have someone who is going to build some built-ins in this room (a multi-purpose room - tv, computer, kids play area, etc - not an elaborate home theater or anything). I may see if he can mount the tv for me at a better price.

To be honest, I said I didn't think I wanted the BB services, but basically caved as they insisted that I needed these things. I was assured i could "return" them and get my money back. Hopefully it won't be a problem (if I can find someone to install the tv,/speakers), since I have only "received" the delivery.

Anyway...Thanks for the responses.

omeany


My flat panel mounting for the 6020 with best buy was $300.00 retail.

D-nice,

When's the replacement Pro111 due?

I will say that my eyes must not be used to a properly calibrated picture because with the D-Nice settings the overall picture seems so dark to me.

Has anyone else strayed from D-Nice's recommended settings in movie mode?

When I first plugged in D-Nice's settings, I thought it was bland, dark and just totally lifeless and stuck with the Optimum mode. As I watched different sources, I started to really appreciate D-Nice's settings but only for certain things and only in dark or dimly lit rooms. Here's how I watch my plasma now...whether it's "right" or not, I don't care...it's what looks best to me. I like pop and wow factors...even if sometimes they're not realistic.

Optimum Mode - Sports, all daytime tv, fluff prime time shows (comedies, sd shows), animated Blu-Ray movies and some PS3 games.

D-Nice's movie settings - All non-animated Blu-Ray movies, night time drama HD shows and some PS3 games.

I find the "realistic" PS3 games look best on Movie mode (example: Uncharted) and the animated ones look best on Optimum mode (example: Indiana Lego). This is just based on my very small sample of PS3 games.

Thanks to everyone for the responses regarding the Best Buy services I purchased. I hate to admit that I let myself be pushed into getting the services despite my initial instinct to pass or think more about it. I justified because he said I could "return" them and I just didn't want to go back and forth with the salesman. I also wasn't sure who in my area might run cables through the wall, etc.

As far as the infamous Monster cables - yes they were pushed heavily (or some cables, we never got that far). I actually purchased a few monster cables from BB with my first HD set - I assumed they were probably 25% or so more expensive and thought - "What the hey, given the price of the tv its not that big of a deal - I'll help the salesman out since they have to push this stuff". Only later (from these forums) did I discover monoprice and realize how overpriced the cables were.

So I refused cables, said I had what I needed, etc - was told I would need new ones with the new tv, etc. In the end, he said if I was getting built-ins I would need a 25' hdmi cable:eek: When I said I didn't think so (I still want the receiver below the screen) he said I would, but that it was OK because the "Geeks" that came out would show me:) He also said it would be better to be too long than too short and that I could just coil it up if I didn't need it.

htwaits:
you asked several questions that I didn't answer (I've been occupied with my 3 year old)

The tv installation was mounting a plasma with cables through the wall.
It was the BB HT manager who stated that ISF calibrabations were standardized and all the same. He also said that BB trained/employed 3 of the only 4 ISF calibraters in NC.

And the $400 was for speaker installation only - I have yet to pick out speakers. (And I am feeling a little rushed due to the cabinet guy coming out - I don't know if it will be more difficult to do later or if I could run the wire to the attic now so that speakers, placement, etc could be chosen later)

Thanks everyone for the help. (Htwaits - I believe I read extensive posts from you when I was purchasing a hlp-5063. So 2x thanks) Sometimes its hard to find the right person to ask questions. Your expertise is appreciated. I believe I'll try to return the services - hopefully it won't be a problem (as I was told). Then I'll find someone to install speakers.

Thanks again,
omeany

When I first plugged in D-Nice's settings, I thought it was bland, dark and just totally lifeless and stuck with the Optimum mode. As I watched different sources, I started to really appreciate D-Nice's settings but only for certain things and only in dark or dimly lit rooms. Here's how I watch my plasma now...whether it's "right" or not, I don't care...it's what looks best to me. I like pop and wow factors...even if sometimes they're not realistic.

Optimum Mode - Sports, all daytime tv, fluff prime time shows (comedies, sd shows), animated Blu-Ray movies and some PS3 games.

D-Nice's movie settings - All non-animated Blu-Ray movies, night time drama HD shows and some PS3 games.

I find the "realistic" PS3 games look best on Movie mode (example: Uncharted) and the animated ones look best on Optimum mode (example: Indiana Lego). This is just based on my very small sample of PS3 games.

Unfortunately, this is the bane of the 9G non-Elites. With the 8G's, you could have your cake and eat it too because of the ability to calibrate the set and have adjustable features. If you wanted more punch - turn up the DRE or color temp, or turn down gamma; less noise - turn up the noise reduction; more detail - turn down the noise reduction; softer picture for movies - turn everything off. With the 9G's, you're stuck with only one "usable" picture mode and can't make those program-by-program adjustments while still maintaining the correct color balance. A real shame.

(Htwaits - I believe I read extensive posts from you when I was purchasing a hlp-5063. So 2x thanks)Our oldest son has our HL-P5063 and it still looks great if you sit in the right locations.

BB will refund everything except the stuff you are keeping. Given their style, expect them to keep selling while they do it.

Read the report I wrote (flat panel link at the bottom of my post), and then PM me. In your situation, after I got my refunds going, I would slow everything down. It's the wrong time to rush. ;)

I can name three nationally known calibrators that come to NC if you are anywhere near a major city. :)

Unfortunately, this is the bane of the 9G non-Elites. With the 8G's, you could have your cake and eat it too because of the ability to calibrate the set and have adjustable features. If you wanted more punch - turn up the DRE or color temp, or turn down gamma; less noise - turn up the noise reduction; more detail - turn down the noise reduction; softer picture for movies - turn everything off. With the 9G's, you're stuck with only one "usable" picture mode and can't make those program-by-program adjustments while still maintaining the correct color balance. A real shame.

You are assuming that brucefan (and others like me) have a problem with the Optimum or Movie modes. Being able to switch the mode with three button strikes can be a lot more convenient to people then adjusting the gamma controls. If brucefan knows he likes Optimum for certain things and Movie for others, isn't that actually a plus to be able to switch so quickly?

I understand the concern with lack of adjustability, and it's certainly been discussed ad nauseum, but for 95% of the people that buy the Kuros, I bet it's actually a plus for them.

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/content/press/news/krpPlasma.html


New link. Official info from Pioneer Europe!


Is it the European equivalent to the Signature Series? They sure don't talk up the tweak-ability of it ... they describe it like it is a thin Elite :confused:

I do like the idea of a separate Receiver ... so only one cable goes to the Display (a SR+ maybe?)

I saw a 151 in BB and the screen was not completely filled! There was a quarter inch Gray space between the panel and the bezel that was extremely noticeable.

Is this normal for the new 9G's? My 8G 150 fills the entire screen so the bezel blends in.

BB sales rep did tell me that now do calibrations! ISF I ask and he tells me Yes.

Did you measure it exactly? I measured mine (in Dot by dot mode) and it came to about 1/8" gap on the top and bottom and slightly more than 1/8 on the two sides (about 5/32").

My guess is that they're allowing for parallax. That is, if the bezel matched up exactly with the pixels and you were not sitting directly in front of the screen, then the edge if the bezel on one side might block a few pixels from view. Just a guess though. Unless you're in a bright room, you'll never notice it when watching the TV.

Did you measure it exactly? I measured mine (in Dot by dot mode) and it came to about 1/8" gap on the top and bottom and slightly more than 1/8 on the two sides (about 5/32").

My guess is that they're allowing for parallax. That is, if the bezel matched up exactly with the pixels and you were not sitting directly in front of the screen, then the edge if the bezel on one side might block a few pixels from view. Just a guess though. Unless you're in a bright room, you'll never notice it when watching the TV.

Are you saying that there are pixels not being used when in "Dot by Dot" mode? Does the image area increase when you are watching one of the other aspect ratios?

I just bought a 5020 and got it set up and noticed the exact same thing with the screen not totally being filled and it is bothersome for sure! I've tried every mode and nothing fixed the issue.

I just bought a 5020 and got it set up and noticed the exact same thing with the screen not totally being filled and it is bothersome for sure! I've tried every mode and nothing fixed the issue.It sounds to me like the xx20 Kuro models have a bezel that is slightly larger than the portion of the glass that contains the 1920 by 1080 pixels. You're seeing a little more of the area of the panel that doesn't contain pixels. You aren't missing any of the image, or any of the pixels.

This is what you might call a "tempest in a bezel". :D

It sounds to me like the xx20 Kuro models have a bezel that is slightly larger than the portion of the glass that contains the 1920 by 1080 pixels. You're seeing a little more of the area of the panel that doesn't contain pixels. You aren't missing any of the image, or any of the pixels.

This is what you might call a "tempest in a bezel". :D

Has anyone else noticed that the "empty space" is slightly larger on the right side than the left? Another member asked me about this and his is the same way.
Anyone else's like this?
It seems like the space on the right gets smallers and larger as you toggle thru the Screensize (dot by dot,full,wide1,wide2,4:3,etc), yet the space on the right does not. Its almost like the distance on the left side is "fixed" and only the right will adjust per screensize.
Could some else please take a look at yours as you toggle screen sizes and see if yours does this??
It is in no way a big deal or nothing, I just wanna see if anyone else's is like this.
Thanks guys!

Has anyone else noticed that the "empty space" is slightly larger on the right side than the left? Another member asked me about this and his is the same way.
Anyone else's like this?
It seems like the space on the right gets smallers and larger as you toggle thru the Screensize (dot by dot,full,wide1,wide2,4:3,etc), yet the space on the right does not. Its almost like the distance on the left side is "fixed" and only the right will adjust per screensize.
Could some else please take a look at yours as you toggle screen sizes and see if yours does this??
It is in no way a big deal or nothing, I just wanna see if anyone else's is like this.
Thanks guys!

Try turning off the orbiter and see if it changes.

Pioneer may have enlarged the bezel opening a little this year. It's obvious that an assembly line marriage between the bezel and the glass panel is not always perfectly matched.

The tolerance was a little smaller last year. A bezel perfectly matched to the 1920x1080 pixel area of the screen would cause people sitting on an angle to miss a few columns of pixels on the end of the display that's closest to them. At least that's true for the 2007 Kuros because the bezel is .5" thick.

Using a bigger bezel opening probably also saves money in production errors.

Try turning off the orbiter and see if it changes.

ah ha,
I did not think of that.

Hi, I'm new to this forum and I need help locating D-nice's review for the PDP-6020. I just can't find it anywhere.

Since my dad and I just bought a couple of Pioneers 508XD (I live in Europe) I would also like to know about break-in:

1. Does it improve PQ?
2. Does it help against IR/burn-in?
3. Does one have to use a special DVD or will any 16:9 non-logo content do?
4. Will it matter if I do it after the screen has been used for a few days?
5. What about black bars on top/bottom on 2.35:1 DVDs? Some have the subtitles placed in the black bands so filling the screen is not an option. My dad is very concerned that this may damage the screen now that it is new and avoids playing them altogether. Maybe this is too much.

Any help appreciated.

Hi, I'm new to this forum and I need help locating D-nice's review for the PDP-6020. I just can't find it anywhere.

Since my dad and I just bought a couple of Pioneers 508XD (I live in Europe) I would also like to know about break-in:

1. Does it improve PQ?
2. Does it help against IR/burn-in?
3. Does one have to use a special DVD or will any 16:9 non-logo content do?
4. Will it matter if I do it after the screen has been used for a few days?
5. What about black bars on top/bottom on 2.35:1 DVDs? Some have the subtitles placed in the black bands so filling the screen is not an option. My dad is very concerned that this may damage the screen now that it is new and avoids playing them altogether. Maybe this is too much.

Any help appreciated.

5 If the subtitles is in the lower black bar, maybe the dvd was an non-anamorphic. To see the subtitles on a non-anamorphic with a 16x9 display sometimes you have to use another preprogrammed aspect ratio. This will "expand" the picture and sometimes the subtitles expands with the picture and dissapear "under" the frame, so to speak.

5 If the subtitles is in the lower black bar, maybe the dvd was an non-anamorphic. To see the subtitles on a non-anamorphic with a 16x9 display sometimes you have to use another preprogrammed aspect ratio. This will "expand" the picture and sometimes the subtitles expands with the picture and dissapear "under" the frame, so to speak.

I know that as I have played quite a bit with the aspect ratios. The Pioneer is very good at filling the screen in contrast to my previous 32" CRT which forced me to use 14:9 and have left-right bars in addition to top-bottom. The thing is I would like to see the subtitles. It is certainly bad practice from the DVD producers to place the subtitles there because even with a 2.35:1 screen we would lose the subtitles. In movie theaters the subtitles are always within the frame.

Still, my concern is how bad it is for a plasma to play films with the black bars frequently considering that playing films will be its primary use.

Hi, I'm new to this forum and I need help locating D-nice's review for the PDP-6020. I just can't find it anywhere.
Any help appreciated.

For the 6020 review, go to Page 1, Post #2.

For the 6020 review, go to Page 1, Post #2.

Thanks, I was looking at site's main page as opposed to the thread's!
:rolleyes:

D-nice,

When's the replacement Pro111 due?Spoke with Jonathan @ ****************.........my replacement panel is suppose to be shipping today (Friday) :D

Special thank you goes out to Jonathan for "finding" a replacement panel so quickly (they are still very, very limited).


Oh, and sorry for mispelling your name in my email Jonathan......my bad :)

Unfortunately, this is the bane of the 9G non-Elites. With the 8G's, you could have your cake and eat it too because of the ability to calibrate the set and have adjustable features. If you wanted more punch - turn up the DRE or color temp, or turn down gamma; less noise - turn up the noise reduction; more detail - turn down the noise reduction; softer picture for movies - turn everything off. With the 9G's, you're stuck with only one "usable" picture mode and can't make those program-by-program adjustments while still maintaining the correct color balance. A real shame.

AMEN ... one thousand times .... Buyer Beware ...

chadmak09

"Has anyone else noticed that the "empty space" is slightly larger on the right side than the left? Another member asked me about this and his is the same way."

Same here with my 151. My pictures are in elite thread. With a flash you can see address lines going to each horizontal line. My 50" 7g has it to a lesser extent. Doesn't bother me as I don't notice beyond 3'.

You are assuming that brucefan (and others like me) have a problem with the Optimum or Movie modes. Being able to switch the mode with three button strikes can be a lot more convenient to people then adjusting the gamma controls. If brucefan knows he likes Optimum for certain things and Movie for others, isn't that actually a plus to be able to switch so quickly?

I understand the concern with lack of adjustability, and it's certainly been discussed ad nauseum, but for 95% of the people that buy the Kuros, I bet it's actually a plus for them.

Exactly where I'm coming from. I'd never have my tv calibrated and I get lost with too many controls to adjust and tweak...I'd be doing it more then actually watching the tv (came from a 65" Mits RPTV I tweaked to death and was still never satisfied). I can honestly say that the "crippled" 6020 is the best TV I have ever seen and has surpassed all my expectations as well as my hopes. I drooled over the 8G elite in Tweeter about 4 months ago knowing I could never afford to have a tv that looked like that in my own home...now I have one.

Unfortunately, this is the bane of the 9G non-Elites. With the 8G's, you could have your cake and eat it too because of the ability to calibrate the set and have adjustable features. If you wanted more punch - turn up the DRE or color temp, or turn down gamma; less noise - turn up the noise reduction; more detail - turn down the noise reduction; softer picture for movies - turn everything off. With the 9G's, you're stuck with only one "usable" picture mode and can't make those program-by-program adjustments while still maintaining the correct color balance. A real shame.

Very, very true. This is driving me nuts on my 6020. So far I'm fine with movie mode on programming material. However for video games I like more pop to the picture. Outside of movie mode it appears that High or medium is the color temp and then on top of that DRE is medium. I liked low DRE on my 8G for some material but I have no choice anymore.

Having said that I think it's ridiculous to have to spend over $1k more just to be able to adjust color temp and DRE:mad:! I know I'll want a 10G (or a competitor brand if one is up to par) next year so it's just not worth it to me to spend the extra $ on a 9G Elite. However if I knew were going to keep my TV over 2 years I'd definitely get an Elite.

Has anyone else strayed from D-Nice's recommended settings in movie mode? I have heard positive reports from some owners after adjusting the color setting up a few notches from the recommended -5 setting. I am thrilled overall with the display but an just a litte concerned with the above things I mentioned.

I agree with you. I tried movie mode for a little while, but found it "muted" and I felt as if there was a light mask over the screen in this mode. I have been switching between Standard and Optimum mode. I agree with D-Nice that the blacks are too strong (aka crushed?) in Standard mode, so I'm thinking that Optimum and Movie mode are the only usable modes.

Any thoughts other than what was written in Dnice's review on 9g pioneers versus the 800 or 850 lines from panny this year? I was set on a 50" 800 but after reading the review maybe it'd be worth the extra money to get a 5020...any thoughts?

I've mentioned this before, but I had the 46 800U for 12 days and returned it so I could see the 5020 before making my final decision. I bought a 5020 last Sunday and can tell you without a doubt it is way better than the 800U and worth the extra $1,000.

Here is my review of the 6020FD. Many thanks to Robert at Value Electronics for sending me an evaluation unit.

Almost 15K ansi contrast!:eek:

Anything on your 6020 Standard mode settings D-Nice?Here are your settings......

Picture:
AV Selection: Standard
Contrast: 31
Brightness: +3
Color: -3 to -7 (you pick)
Tint: R4
Sharpness: -15

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Advance
Text Optimization: Off



Power Save Mode: Off

Here are your settings......

Picture:
AV Selection: Standard
Contrast: 31
Brightness: +3
Color: -3 to -7 (you pick)
Tint: R4
Sharpness: -15

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Advance
Text Optimization: Off



Power Save Mode: Off

Awesome. Looks like I came browsing out here just in time to catch your post. I'll give these a run this weekend.

Thanks D-Nice, you're ok in my book, no matter what they say about you ;)

when accepting delivery for a 151, what all should i be looking for

is it just broken screen and if it can turn on? or are there other things i could/should denie delivery for?

Those two really are the only things that really can be proven to be the shipper's fault. Other issues with the panel like defective pixels would not be because of the delivery service.

So yes, broken panel and power turning on.

Special thank you goes out to Jonathan for "finding" a replacement panel so quickly (they are still very, very limited).


That's because half of them are getting destroyed before they find a home.:D

Unfortunately, this is the bane of the 9G non-Elites. With the 8G's, you could have your cake and eat it too because of the ability to calibrate the set and have adjustable features. If you wanted more punch - turn up the DRE or color temp, or turn down gamma; less noise - turn up the noise reduction; more detail - turn down the noise reduction; softer picture for movies - turn everything off. With the 9G's, you're stuck with only one "usable" picture mode and can't make those program-by-program adjustments while still maintaining the correct color balance. A real shame.

If you view it in terms of the price drop and compare for example what a 60" Kuro can be purchased for now compare to what it costs to buy one less than a year go then you can imagine Pioneer trying to find a way to lower the price Kuro substantially while maintaining their elite customer base. This must have been the happy compromise, adjustability vs. ease of use...

I'm looking at each of A/V modes on the 6020 as a base starting point for group of settings from which Pio thinks you should be able to derive a nice set of looks for various situations. Of course this would never work for users that want to tweak to perfection, hence the price for the elite makes sense.

So far I've found for instance that Movie Mode settings look great for most HD material, Blu-ray, HD-DVD, HD Channels etc. but not for Standard DVD in my book. Movie Mode seems optimized for HD out of the box.

I've been tested using the Kuro to do the scaling and several other A/V modes produce a much more attractive picture for SD DVD, very good for SD even across the large screen.

Dahlsim^^ good programmed remote can be set up to change a/v modes when the source is changed.

-Robert

Dahlsim^^ good programmed remote can be set up to change a/v modes when the source is changed.

-Robert
Robert,

Any news on 141FD availabliity or pricing yet?

I only seen this once when they let this happen by letting it just sit there.
Roman ,
Any suggestion on stands for the 151FD ? what do you think about this one

It is a sanus brand
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11097797&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=

I saw it in Best buy...few days ago.

I got the peerless ST670 @ bestpricemounts.com for my pro151 and paid just over 100bux... check this mount out.

good luck, Mike:)

btw, i like that you can mount it to two or three wood studs.

I got the peerless ST670 @ bestpricemounts.com for my pro151 and paid just over 100bux... check this mount out.

good luck, Mike:)
You think that is strong enough to hold the TV

Dahlsim^^ good programmed remote can be set up to change a/v modes when the source is changed.

-Robert

Thanks for the tip Robert (and the great service from you & Wendy ;) ) I have a Harmony 880...

I also think though that my issue may be using a PS3 or an HD DVD player for my SD DVD. That leads me to use the same input for High Def DVD as for Standard DVD which means I get the same settings on Movie Mode for both types of material.

As I understand it, if I use a different DVD player on a different input to the 6020 then the Movie Mode settings could be saved for that input? If so then I'd need to see if the Movie Mode settings could be adjusted for standard DVD sources.

Edit: Scratch that. I see the settings for an A/V mode are GLOBAL to all inputs (doh!), except for using standard mode A/V. So we'll see what standard mode looks like and what the harmony can do...

well this is some unexpected cheapness of a delivery company. taxair got the tv this morning and instead of loading it up on the truck and driving here they decided they would just leave it in there facility...while they call and make an appointment for next week.

ive ordered big things before and typically they just throw it in the truck and make the call along the way.

so now im stuck deciding if i want my tv today and drive 100 miles each way, or waiting till next week :(

Roman ,
Any suggestion on stands for the 151FD ? what do you think about this one

It is a sanus brand


I saw it in Best buy...few days ago.

Sanus is a good brand, take a look at Peerless as well.

so now im stuck deciding if i want my tv today and drive 100 miles each way, or waiting till next week :(

Keep in mind that if you pickup you are responsible if it gets damaged in your procession. That is why I recommend waiting. But if you are carefull I have seen people to do that before.

Spoke with Jonathan @ ****************.........my replacement panel is suppose to be shipping today (Friday) :D

Special thank you goes out to Jonathan for "finding" a replacement panel so quickly (they are still very, very limited).
There is a chance you may be getting mine. They called me 11am Friday and said they had bad news. My 111 scheduled for delivery on Monday was not going to happen. Oddly enough this was the first I had heard about a Monday delivery so I was not that disappointed. If it was the one slated for me, at least it is going for a good cause.

There is a chance you may be getting mine. They called me 11am Friday and said they had bad news. My 111 scheduled for delivery on Monday was not going to happen. Oddly enough this was the first I had heard about a Monday delivery so I was not that disappointed. If it was the one slated for me, at least it is going for a good cause.
That is probably not yours...the one going to South carolina goes out from a different warehouse ....I`m just guessing but I think I am right

well this is some unexpected cheapness of a delivery company. taxair got the tv this morning and instead of loading it up on the truck and driving here they decided they would just leave it in there facility...while they call and make an appointment for next week.

ive ordered big things before and typically they just throw it in the truck and make the call along the way.

so now im stuck deciding if i want my tv today and drive 100 miles each way, or waiting till next week :(

For some years now I've traded in high-end audio equipment. I learned a long time ago that the less time a carrier has possession of a package, the less chance it will be damaged. For this reason, I will only ship 2nd day air.

I'd be far more concerned about the box sitting in a warehouse or loading dock for 3 or more days, than the relative inconvenience of picking it up.

Assuming you have a means to transport it safely, I'd go get it.

A_C

2nd day air for Plasma pretty pricey ;)

yah i think im going to pick it up, but dam that sucks. i hope they let me plug it in there, they will prob think im crazy tho.

i have a truck with a topper on it, so i think i can transport it safer than they can, if it tips it won't be able to crash all the way down as it will hit the topper first. plus hopfully i can find some boxes to stack on the sides and behind it. anyways wish me luck

DOubt they would lt plug in but check for damage for sure!

You think that is strong enough to hold the TV

The peerless st670 is rated @ 250lbs, on 3 studs. My uncle uses it on his 6020, I haven't installed mine on the wall yet. but it should be fine. do a search on more info about it.

good luck, Mike

Ithe peerless st670 is rated @ 250lbs, on 3 studs. My uncle uses it on his 6020, I haven't installed mine on the wall yet. but it should be fine. do a search on more info about it.

good luck, Mike

It will work just fine.

Yes


Can it pass an unaltered 480i signal over HDMI?

You mean the BDP-51? Yes it will.
So in that case I dont need to buy an oppo 980 and just get the BD-51

2nd day air for Plasma pretty pricey ;)

Not specifically suggesting such, just trying to illustrate a point. Less time in the shippers hands = less chance of an 'accident'; that's all.

A_C

yah i think im going to pick it up, but dam that sucks. i hope they let me plug it in there, they will prob think im crazy tho.

i have a truck with a topper on it, so i think i can transport it safer than they can, if it tips it won't be able to crash all the way down as it will hit the topper first. plus hopfully i can find some boxes to stack on the sides and behind it. anyways wish me luck

Take a strap (at least a rope) with you to immobilize it, and a moving pad wouldn't hurt.

I was away for a few days and I turned my pc on only to see 14 new pages plus D-Nice's review...

First, a big THANK YOU to D-Nice for taking the time to write such an objective review which is technical, detailed and at the same time addresses a lot of questions and concerns that have been expressed in this thread.

As I have decided to get the 151, the blotching remains a concern for me. I assume that the 151 will have it also. I know D-Nice said it's only noticeable when the whole screen is black, and I would be grateful if one of the Kuro owners will expand on this a little: what color are the blotches, are they greenish? How big are they, and are they really easy to see on the black screen or do you have to look for them to see them? How about on the dark scenes of a movie, are they also there?

Thanks!

Now that I've had a chance to play around with my 151FD, about the blotching, I think I have it because I can see it too when there's a totally black screen.

To answer your question, I can't see it when there's a signal. I can't even see it when most of the screen is black. In order to see it, the screen has to be all black with no signal.

So another words, I can't see it with normal video programming.

Not specifically suggesting such, just trying to illustrate a point. Less time in the shippers hands = less chance of an 'accident'; that's all.

A_C

Just giving you a hard time :)

can someone help me realy quick, is it ok to travel with the carton laying down instead of standing up?

apparently with my topper on the box won't fit in standing up :(

uhaul said $20 plus .99 a mile =$220, what a rip. sure id have to pay for gas as well. :(

So in that case I dont need to buy an oppo 980 and just get the BD-51Currently, you're best bang for the buck bet(s) are: the 'mighty' 40 GB PS3 or the soon-to-be-released: BDP-S550 (http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/26/sony-announces-bdp-s350-bdp-s550-first-new-blu-ray-players-sin/).

can someone help me realy quick, is it ok to travel with the carton laying down instead of standing up?Not recommended.

can someone help me realy quick, is it ok to travel with the carton laying down instead of standing up?No.

Is 1080p supported through the component cable interface? I assume no, I don't think any tv's will support it since they can do it all through HDMI.

Is 1080p supported through the component cable interface? I assume no, I don't think any tv's will support it since they can do it all through HDMI.I don't think the Pioneer's can do 1080p through component. Some TVs can (Sharps for example)

So my impatience for a 9g drove me to call my local BB today to find out if they had a 111 in stock and to my suprise, THEY DID! I cut my work day short to go pick it up and after finally getting home and putting it together and trying to power it on... NOTHING:eek:

I tried everything I can think of to power her on but the sad reallity was she was DOA:mad: After all this waiting I get the best and most unexpected news in the world today, one I thought I would have to wait another month to hear initially, just for it all to mean nothing and leave me waiting for who knows how long once again:o:mad::(:mad::(:mad::(

So my impatience for a 9g drove me to call my local BB today to find out if they had a 111 in stock and to my suprise, THEY DID! I cut my work day short to go pick it up and after finally getting home and putting it together and trying to power it on... NOTHING:eek:

I tried everything I can think of to power her on but the sad reallity was she was DOA:mad: After all this waiting I get the best and most unexpected news in the world today, one I thought I would have to wait another month to hear initially, just for it all to mean nothing and leave me waiting for who knows how long once again:o:mad::(:mad::(:mad::(

Does the 111 have the "main" power switch on the bottom left backside of the TV that you have to pull before pressing the regular power button like the 6010 and 6020 do??
If so, then maybe thats your problem??

luvnhatesony, there's a power toggle switch on the bottom of the panel. If you are looking at the front of the TV, it'll be on the left. I remember reading about that and had a little bit of a hard time finding it when I first got my set. It's actually pretty big.

Oops, looks like chad beat me to the punch.

Does the 111 have the "main" power switch on the bottom left backside of the TV that you have to pull before pressing the regular power button like the 6010 and 6020 do??
If so, then maybe thats your problem??

OMG!!!! do I feel like an IDIOT!!! Never noticed this on my old 1150 or 110:eek: Chadmak09 you've resurrected my 111!!! THANKS A MILLION! Hope one day I can return the favor:D

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D Time to see what this baby can do. I'll get back to you guys later for some of my thoughts. Thanks again Chad!

luvnhate, don't forget to POST PICTURES!

well this is some unexpected cheapness of a delivery company. taxair got the tv this morning and instead of loading it up on the truck and driving here they decided they would just leave it in there facility...while they call and make an appointment for next week.

ive ordered big things before and typically they just throw it in the truck and make the call along the way.

so now im stuck deciding if i want my tv today and drive 100 miles each way, or waiting till next week :(

I'm in the same boat, although I'll be waiting till they bring it to my house next week. I've already paid enough for the TV and I don't feel like I need to run $100 of diesel through my truck just to satisfy my impatience.

I just hope it survives the weekend undestroyed.

What's going to give me better PQ for SD DVDs on the 111-FD that I have coming soon, an OPPO 980 using 480i out (unconverted) on HDMI that relies on the 111's internal scaler for upconversion or an OPPO 983 (with the highly rated Anchor Bay video processor) upconverting to 1080P and bypassing the TV's internal scaler? First off, am I lining up a comparison that makes sense with the equipment in question and the connections that are possible? Thanks for your help.

OMG!!!! do I feel like an IDIOT!!! Never noticed this on my old 1150 or 110:eek: Chadmak09 you've resurrected my 111!!! THANKS A MILLION! Hope one day I can return the favor:D

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D Time to see what this baby can do. I'll get back to you guys later for some of my thoughts. Thanks again Chad!

Sweet! Glad that's all it was!

What's going to give me better PQ for SD DVDs on the 111-FD that I have coming soon, an OPPO 980 using 480i out (unconverted) on HDMI that relies on the 111's internal scaler for upconversion or an OPPO 983 (with the highly rated Anchor Bay video processor) upconverting to 1080P and bypassing the TV's internal scaler? First off, am I lining up a comparison that makes sense with the equipment in question and the connections that are possible? Thanks for your help.


Any ATM right now will only be conjecture and nothing but.

Currently, you're best bang for the buck bet(s) are: the 'mighty' 40 GB PS3 or the soon-to-be-released: BDP-S550 (http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/26/sony-announces-bdp-s350-bdp-s550-first-new-blu-ray-players-sin/).

Both fine machines, I am sure, but can they claim this...

Pioneer engineers developed unique performance settings in both players (BDP-51FD/05FD) to ensure subtle details, vivid colors and deep shadows are accurately reproduced when shown on KURO displays. When selecting the “Pioneer PDP” in the video adjust mode, the new players will output the appropriate signal to a connected KURO and deliver the best possible image possible for viewers. :D

I know this is the 9g site and not Blu-Ray, but this was on engadget the other day...

Announced over on Pioneer's European website, we're being treated to three fresh faces -- the Profile 2.0-compliant BDP-LX91, Designer BDP-LX08 and BDP-LX71 -- along with one familiar face (the BDP-51FD). As for pricing and availability other than Europe, your guess is as good as ours, but we are told to expect the BDP-LX71 in September, the BDP-51FD / BDP-LX08 in October and the BDP-LX91 "later on in the winter."

Although, I think the 51FD is due here in mid to late July.

I am planning to get an 05FD, but I heard the release date on those is still about 2 months off and need something to tide me over that doesn't "insult" the 111-FD. I am wondering also whether the 05FD upconversion performance with SD DVDs will match the OPPO 983.

Both fine machines, I am sure, but can they claim this...

Pioneer engineers developed unique performance settings in both players (BDP-51FD/05FD) to ensure subtle details, vivid colors and deep shadows are accurately reproduced when shown on KURO displays. When selecting the “Pioneer PDP” in the video adjust mode, the new players will output the appropriate signal to a connected KURO and deliver the best possible image possible for viewers. :D

I am planning to get an 05FD, but I heard the release date on those is still about 2 months off and need something to tide me over that doesn't "insult" the 111-FD. I am wondering also whether the 05FD upconversion performance with SD DVDs will match the OPPO 983.

This is all the Pioneer USA site says...

The Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD and BDP-51FD BonusView Blu-ray Disc players will begin shipping this summer.

Any comparison using the 111-FD is for sure conjecture right now. I guess I was hoping that someone out there has done this sort of Oppo 980 and 983 interface comparison using the 110-FD as the platform so I would have some idea about what to expect.

Any ATM right now will only be conjecture and nothing but.

Thanks for looking that up -- I guess I'll just have to be patient.

This is all the Pioneer USA site says...

The Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD and BDP-51FD BonusView Blu-ray Disc players will begin shipping this summer.

There is a chance you may be getting mine. They called me 11am Friday and said they had bad news. My 111 scheduled for delivery on Monday was not going to happen. Oddly enough this was the first I had heard about a Monday delivery so I was not that disappointed. If it was the one slated for me, at least it is going for a good cause.Nope. Mine didn't ship today either :(

Nope. Mine didn't ship today either :(

Sorry to hear that--guess we'll all have to wait longer on your next review.

BTW, I answered your PM--did you get my reply?

KDD

You think that is strong enough to hold the TV

It's more than strong enough for my 1150, not sure on weight difference from 1150 to 151.

Sorry to hear that--guess we'll all have to wait longer on your next review.

BTW, I answered your PM--did you get my reply?

KDDJust replied to it :)

OMG!!!! do I feel like an IDIOT!!! Never noticed this on my old 1150 or 110:eek: Chadmak09 you've resurrected my 111!!! THANKS A MILLION! Hope one day I can return the favor:D

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D Time to see what this baby can do. I'll get back to you guys later for some of my thoughts. Thanks again Chad!
Don't feel like the lone ranger, lvnhs...the same thing happened with mine. The lead delivery guy was scratching his head, and changing where it plugged in, flipping through the manual, etc. The younger "helper guy" kept mumbling something about a power switch at the bottom but we kind of ignored him as I flipped through the manual and the lead guy was starting to dial Tweeter.

Finally, I asked the kid what he was talking about. I realized what he'd been mumbling on about...felt around for the switch...and *bink* on goes the 151. The lead guy didn't say a word as he put the phone down.

I should be out of the break-in period by Sunday, so I guess I'll get to see what kind of signal TW is gonna feed me.

Congrats on your new arrival. I'll touch base with you to see later to see how you're doing with it.

Nope. Mine didn't ship today either :(

D,

You doing anything this weekend? How about you come by and get an early start on your 111 evaluation and help me bring out the best in this bad boy in the meantime.

At the moment Im speechless when it comes to just how AMAZING this 111 is so far. I thought the difference would be subtle between this an the 110 I once had but MY GOD! The detail, the smoothness, the 3Dness, the BLACKNESS, WOW!

BTW everyone NO BUZZ, unless I literally put my head behind the set, as well as NO DEAD PIXELS. Im in HDTV heaven:D

Don't feel like the loan ranger, lvnhs...the same thing happened with mine. The lead delivery guy was scratching his head, and changing where it plugged in, flipping through the manual, etc. The younger "helper guy" kept mumbling something about a power switch at the bottom but we kind of ignored him as I flipped through the manual and the lead guy was starting to dial Tweeter.

Finally, I asked the kid what he was talking about. I realized what he'd been mumbling on about...felt around for the switch...and *bink* on goes the 151. The lead guy didn't say a word as he put the phone down.

I should be out of the break-in period by Sunday, so I guess I'll get to see what kind of signal TW is gonna feed me.

Congrats on your new arrival. I'll touch base with you to see later to see how you're doing with it.

Thanks, this makes me feel better:D I finally just pulled myself away from my 111 and Im now letting the break in dvd do its thing. Hope to join you in the post break in period in about a week or so untill then I'll try and put into words the amazingness (pretty sure thats not a word) of this set.

I am planning to get an 05FD, but I heard the release date on those is still about 2 months off and need something to tide me over that doesn't "insult" the 111-FD. I am wondering also whether the 05FD upconversion performance with SD DVDs will match the OPPO 983.
DO NOT USE THE UPCONVERSION FEATURE IF U WANT THE BEST RESULTS---JUST USE HDMI STRAIGHT PASS THROUGH

Can someone please help me? I'm trying to sync my computer to my 6020 using tversity. I'm using a lynksys router. I'm using windows xp. For some reason I just can't seem to get it to work.

Out of curiousity, has anyone been able to compare a 9G pio, elite or standard, against a Sony OLED screen? I'm trying to gauge how good the current Kuro is against the future of OLED screens.

I don't think the near future holds much for consumers with the OLED technology. They have to make some drastic changes to make it affordable. 11" OLED for $2500 is hardly affordable. Just imagine how much the price skyrockets once the screen gets bigger.

Additionally, the image on an 11" OLED screen may not be the same as on a 50" or 60". Who knows until they come out with it.

Frankly, I think its going to be LCD vs Plasma for quite a while.

Additionally, the image on an 11" OLED screen may not be the same as on a 50" or 60". Who knows until they come out with it.

Frankly, I think its going to be LCD vs Plasma for quite a while.


Exactly. Even VHS looks pretty good on a small TV. It's when you make it 60"... OLED is not a proven technology by a long shot. You think image burn-in is a concern on plasma...

I'm with ya, the price to performance ratio is just too hard to pass up!

John

Plus a bit more connectivity, a good thing if you have more than one component source.

Plus a bit more connectivity, a good thing if you have more than one component source.

I am breaking it in now, and I have to say the picture is awesome. I am using a Denon 2910 DVD player at the moment, and intend to get an Oppo 983 as soon as more are in stock. What amazes me is the quality of a SD DVD picture, it rivals the "HD lite" that DTV sends out on a well filmed and authored DVD. I was going to wait for the signature 9G, but this price was too good. In a few years if the technology has moved even further ahead in quality, I won't feel as bad about upgrading.

John

I know you guys and gals get pissed when people haven't read the whole thread but have you considered how much time it would take to read all the pages now??

D-Nice, would you consider posting an index in some of your first posts regarding some of the highlights of this thread?? Thanks for the excellent review. I am still seriously torn on my decision betweend standard and Elite and 50 or 60. Ahhh, if money was no object!!

Finally, please pardon my newbiness but I have searched around on the site and I am not sure I am finding the dealer info I need. I hate to ask but could someone point me in the right direction or even tell me if there is a forum sponsor that can sell Pioneers to Phoenix, Arizona?

I know you guys and gals get pissed when people haven't read the whole thread but have you considered how much time it would take to read all the pages now??

D-Nice, would you consider posting an index in some of your first posts regarding some of the highlights of this thread?? Thanks for the excellent review. I am still seriously torn on my decision betweend standard and Elite and 50 or 60. Ahhh, if money was no object!!

D's review probably does pretty much sum up the non elite posts and his upcoming review of the elite (if he can get one in one piece) will take care of the rest.

i saw one today. the pioneer had better blacks. the sony lcd dispersed the light better.

Finally, please pardon my newbiness but I have searched around on the site and I am not sure I am finding the dealer info I need. I hate to ask but could someone point me in the right direction or even tell me if there is a forum sponsor that can sell Pioneers to Phoenix, Arizona?Use the links to sponsors at the top and bottom of each page. Then use their toll free numbers to call for Pioneer information.

DO NOT USE THE UPCONVERSION FEATURE IF U WANT THE BEST RESULTS---JUST USE HDMI STRAIGHT PASS THROUGHAll caps is shouting. ;)

While your suggestion is valid in many situations, it's over simplified and it might even be missleading.

Has anyone done business with the Magnolia Home Theatre store in Tulsa OK? I was wondering if they do any kind of price matching before contacting them.

Has anyone done business with the Magnolia Home Theatre store in Tulsa OK? I was wondering if they do any kind of price matching before contacting them.

I know the Magnolia in Indianapolis will only price-match if it is a local competitor, has the item in stock, and can prove it is not a refurb. I did get them to price-match sonystyle.com for my 52xbr3, but it took a lot of arguing.

I too am looking at an Elite and the Magnolia store is my only B & M option.:(

I know the Magnolia in Indianapolis will only price-match if it is a local competitor, has the item in stock, and can prove it is not a refurb. I did get them to price-match sonystyle.com for my 52xbr3, but it took a lot of arguing.

I too am looking at an Elite and the Magnolia store is my only B & M option.:(

Thanks for the feedback.

Bill

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/content/press/news/krpPlasma.html


New link. Official info from Pioneer Europe!

These are the Pio Signature series plasmas.

can someone point me in the direction of where to find the Break-in pictures (jpg) files in order to do the break-in via thumb drive on the USB port on my Kuro????

EDIT:
i found them. they are on Evangelo's website.
I need to get those JPG files but they are zipped up on the website. My computer is down right now and I am using my PS3. The Ps3 can't unzip files:).
If someone already has those files availible, could you do me a big favor and PM them to me unzipped?? :)
I would be forever in your debt.

Thanks,
Chad

Additionally, the image on an 11" OLED screen may not be the same as on a 50" or 60". Who knows until they come out with it.

Frankly, I think its going to be LCD vs Plasma for quite a while.

The soon-to-be-released Mitsubushi LaserTV is looking very interesting and is said to have 4 times more resolution than plasma and be half the weight and use half the electricity. We'll see.

id be worried about that lazer tv messing up your eyes if it actually uses real lasers

The soon-to-be-released Mitsubushi LaserTV is looking very interesting and is said to have 4 times more resolution than plasma and be half the wait and use half the electricity. We'll see.

Well, they are basically DLP rear projection, so they better be lighter (assuming you meant "weight") than an all glass unit. And no, the ones demonstrated so far and coming to market this fall will not be 4 times the resolution, they are 1080p.

If having lasers instead of lamps excites you, I guess they are worth holding out for. Frankly I'm done with rear projection and have no interest in seeing speckle patterns and painfully bright colors, more ridiculous even than current LCDs.

Has anyone done business with the Magnolia Home Theatre store in Tulsa OK? I was wondering if they do any kind of price matching before contacting them.

The Tulsa store would not match Video Revolutions price on the 6010. :cool:

--Don

I am curious -- why will you be going with the Oppo 983 versus the 981 or the 980? What Pioneer panel do you have?


I am breaking it in now, and I have to say the picture is awesome. I am using a Denon 2910 DVD player at the moment, and intend to get an Oppo 983 as soon as more are in stock. What amazes me is the quality of a SD DVD picture, it rivals the "HD lite" that DTV sends out on a well filmed and authored DVD. I was going to wait for the signature 9G, but this price was too good. In a few years if the technology has moved even further ahead in quality, I won't feel as bad about upgrading.

John

My 111-FD is being delivered on Monday, and I am wondering about break-in settings. Do you know what is recommended for the 111? Also, I'm new to using break-in DVDs. Which one is the easiest to come by and the best to use? Any other early reports on your set? Thanks for your help.

D,

You doing anything this weekend? How about you come by and get an early start on your 111 evaluation and help me bring out the best in this bad boy in the meantime.

At the moment Im speechless when it comes to just how AMAZING this 111 is so far. I thought the difference would be subtle between this an the 110 I once had but MY GOD! The detail, the smoothness, the 3Dness, the BLACKNESS, WOW!

BTW everyone NO BUZZ, unless I literally put my head behind the set, as well as NO DEAD PIXELS. Im in HDTV heaven:D

I am curious -- why will you be going with the Oppo 983 versus the 981 or the 980? What Pioneer panel do you have?

I have the 5010. I want the ABT de-interlacing and scaling solution on the 983. I think sending a 1080P signal from that machine to the 5010 in dot by dot mode is gonna rock, could be wrong, but time will tell :)

John

id be worried about that lazer tv messing up your eyes if it actually uses real lasers

Maybe you should tell Mitsubushi right away before someone goes blind.

Well, they are basically DLP rear projection, so they better be lighter (assuming you meant "weight") than an all glass unit. And no, the ones demonstrated so far and coming to market this fall will not be 4 times the resolution, they are 1080p.

If having lasers instead of lamps excites you, I guess they are worth holding out for. Frankly I'm done with rear projection and have no interest in seeing speckle patterns and painfully bright colors, more ridiculous even than current LCDs.

I'm not exicited about LaserTV but I am interested. My post was to inform others that there is something new coming to compete with plasma and LCD. Meanwhile I would not necessarily assume these LaserTVs will have the same problems as present-day rear projection TVs. Like I said .... We'll see. In fact we'll have to literally see with our eyes, as opposed to speculating sight unseen, before we'll really know. Personally I prefer the slimness and quality of plasmas. However, if something else comes along that is significantly better than a Pio Kuro Signature then I'd definitely consider it.

My 111-FD is being delivered on Monday, and I am wondering about break-in settings. Do you know what is recommended for the 111? Also, I'm new to using break-in DVDs. Which one is the easiest to come by and the best to use? Any other early reports on your set? Thanks for your help.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858851
First page :) Looking forward to your input on Monday.

Well, they are basically DLP rear projection, so they better be lighter (assuming you meant "weight") than an all glass unit. And no, the ones demonstrated so far and coming to market this fall will not be 4 times the resolution, they are 1080p.

If having lasers instead of lamps excites you, I guess they are worth holding out for. Frankly I'm done with rear projection and have no interest in seeing speckle patterns and painfully bright colors, more ridiculous even than current LCDs.

"If having lasers instead of lamps excites you, I guess they are worth holding out for."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I don't know about lasers being used for tv, but they sure do wonders for my Edge amp:D

Sorry about misquoting you D-Nice. I had to do a search and prove to myself I was not going crazy about reading the8G 768p models measuring 0.008fL. Here are some sources.

Here is another review that measured the 1150HD at 0.007fL.
http://www.avguide.com/the-perfect-vision/82/pioneer.php

Here they measured the 5080HD at 0.008 like UMR
http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/index7.html

Same magazine measured the 6010 at 0.004
http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/1107piokuro6010/index5.html


D-Nice, I know UMR is considered a high end calibrator but the other magazines I am not sure about. Are you using a different method of measuring or is it that the Kuro panels measure different for each individual panel? And to think things were not confusing enough I saw this measurement for the PRO-150FD reviewed by Thomas Norton who aslo did the 6010.

"All of the measurements were taken in the Pure mode, adjusted for the most accurate picture. The Power Save mode was set to Off. Using a window pattern, I measured a peak contrast ratio of 44,160:1 (that’s not a typo) with an astonishing black level of 0.001 foot-lamberts—the minimum sensitivity of our lab-grade Minolta light meter. Even the full-screen white contrast ratio measured 18,220:1 (18.22 ft-L peak white, 0.001 ft-L video black)."
http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/508piok150/index4.html


So is it correct to assume that these panels vary individually? Thanks in advance.

The 5080 is not an Elite. Also, umr has measured some 1150s with the same 0.004fL as mine.

I do not know what meter The Perfect Vision used in their review. You have to remember that light meter sensitivity will vary and you need something that is accurate down to 0.001fL to measure the 8Gs.

I thought the glass was the same between the elites vs non elites? The only thing I see different concerning the panel with the elites vs non elites was the color filter. Does the color filter contribute to the lower fL measurements? Or is something else a factor?

I would take D-nice's luminance readings with a healthy grain of salt. According to this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14067828#post14067828), he was using a Konica-Minolta CS-1000 spectroradiometer which gave a luminance reading of 0.0014 fL on the Pioneer 6020 with 0% stimulus (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14065276#post14065276). However, a quick check of the specification sheet (http://www.konicaminolta.com/instruments/products/display/spectroradiometer/cs1000ast/specifications.html) revealed that the CS-1000 has a minimum luminance sensitivity of 0.01 cd/m2 +/- 2% +/- 1 digit, which means that its theoretical lowest limit for accuracy is 0.0029 fL, more than double of what D-nice measured.

Also, from D-nice's posts here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13773705#post13773705) and here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14067828#post14067828) it's clear that he has relied on the cheap and cheerful AEMC CA813 digital light meter (http://www.aemc.com/products/pdf/2121.20.pdf) (costs about $160) for luminance readings. The thing you need to know is that the CA813 is an illuminance meter which gives readings in lux or foot-candles. On the other hand, black level is measured as luminance, in fL (foot Lambert) or cd/m2. This article (http://www.tpub.com/content/gsacriteria/gsa_courtroom_lighting/gsa_courtroom_lighting0012.htm) explains the basic difference between luminance and illuminance.

There are a few documented methods of converting lux to foot Lambert (here's an excellent AVSforum tutorial applied to front projectors (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755705)), but they involve additional parameters like screen gain, screen area, etc. I'm not sure how D-nice arrived at his simplistic formula of converting lux to fL by just multiplying the reading by a factor of 0.929 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14068677#post14068677).

The Perfect Vision (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&q=site%3Aavguide.com+ls-100&btnG=Search) and Home Theater Mag (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&q=site%3Ahometheatermag.com+ls-100&btnG=Search) both use the Konica-Minolta LS-100 (a $3000 industrial grade spot-reading luminance meter with a specified sensitivity of down to 0.001 fL) to measure black level. While I appreciate D-nice's selfless contributions to these forums, I think he should not slag off the numbers measured by established magazines with superior instruments to what he has.

Best regards
John

I too am assuming the scaling solution with the 983 through 1080P will be superior to a 980 using the 480i pass-through setting and relying on the internal scaler of the TV (in my case a 111-FD). Others disagree. I wonder if Robert would be willing to include this in a "shoot-out" on SD DVD PQ options with Pio panels. I am getting a Pio Elite 05FD blue-ray player when they come out later this summer, and I have little doubt about what its HD PQ will be and its unique interface with Kuro panels; but on the SD DVD PQ side, I am wondering if the 05 will offer the best solution either through its 480i pass-through setting or its upconversion through 1080P. Will Oppo will still be king of the SD DVD realm for those of us looking for the best SD DVD PQ possible without jumping into the incredibly expensive boutique reference equipment? I realize this is a question veering a bit off the central topic of this thread, but it does tie into an equipment interface issue with 8 or 9G Pio panels.

I have the 5010. I want the ABT de-interlacing and scaling solution on the 983. I think sending a 1080P signal from that machine to the 5010 in dot by dot mode is gonna rock, could be wrong, but time will tell :)

John

I too am assuming the scaling solution with the 983 through 1080P will be superior to a 980 using the 480i pass-through setting and relying on the internal scaler of the TV (in my case a 111-FD). Others disagree. I wonder if Robert would be willing to include this in a "shoot-out" on SD DVD PQ options with Pio panels. I am getting a Pio Elite 05FD blue-ray player when they come out later this summer, and I have little doubt about what its HD PQ will be and its unique interface with Kuro panels; but on the SD DVD PQ side, I am wondering if the 05 will offer the best solution either through its 480i pass-through setting or its upconversion through 1080P. Will Oppo will still be king of the SD DVD realm for those of us looking for the best SD DVD PQ possible without jumping into the incredibly expensive boutique reference equipment? I realize this is a question veering a bit off the central topic of this thread, but it does tie into an equipment interface issue with 8 or 9G Pio panels.


The Pios have great scalers. I am of the opinion, and info from other Pio plasma owners in the 983 thread, that the de-interlacer in the 983 bests the Pios de-interlacer. Allowing the 983 to also do the scaling keeps it all in the ABT solution, then use the Pio dot by dot. This is looking for that "nth" degree of improvement though, as those in the 983 thread with 8G Pios said the two choices were very close in quality.

John

I am breaking it in now, and I have to say the picture is awesome. I am using a Denon 2910 DVD player at the moment, and intend to get an Oppo 983 as soon as more are in stock. What amazes me is the quality of a SD DVD picture, it rivals the "HD lite" that DTV sends out on a well filmed and authored DVD. I was going to wait for the signature 9G, but this price was too good. In a few years if the technology has moved even further ahead in quality, I won't feel as bad about upgrading.

John

I'm considering an 8G rather than a 9G because there are more connections on the 8G, and I need those. Good to hear you're enjoying the set.

I'm considering an 8G rather than a 9G because there are more connections on the 8G, and I need those. Good to hear you're enjoying the set.

More connections, more picture tweaking options, lower price.
Only you can decide if the additional "blackness" of the 9G is worth the additional money :) While I do like the best picture possible, for me, chasing that last nth degree was not worth the price premium, ymmv :)

John

IMHO the black level is much better. Then again, however, I have this obsession with the quest for blackerness :D.

As far as input goes, all digital input goes through one HDMI (using receiver as a repeater/switcher), two components (for Wii and digital cable box) and one RF is more than enough for me.

can someone point me in the direction of where to find the Break-in pictures (jpg) files in order to do the break-in via thumb drive on the USB port on my Kuro????

EDIT:
i found them. they are on Evangelo's website.
I need to get those JPG files but they are zipped up on the website. My computer is down right now and I am using my PS3. The Ps3 can't unzip files:).
If someone already has those files availible, could you do me a big favor and PM them to me unzipped?? :)
I would be forever in your debt.

Thanks,
Chad

Unfortunately, the file is huge when it's unzipped. Too big to email. But it does download, unzip, and burn quickly, so maybe you find a friend with a PC who'll do you the favor.

yah theres like 20 pictures, and id have to add and upload them one at a time otherwise i would do it.

you could install linux onto your ps3, you should be able to unzip it then

9G buzz thread started here:

Link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1044254)

It's a copy of the 8G buzz poll BTW.

I apologize if this is a FAQ (a quick search didn't yield the answer), but I've noticed on Pioneer's website, the Elites mention "true" 1080p24 while the Kuro non-elites do not. I understand from other threads that the 6020, for example, does support 1080p24 at 72Hz, but I can't understand why Pioneer explicitly mentions this support on the Elites but not the Kuros, unless of course it's to tempt you into the Elite line.

So I just wanted to verify that the 1080p24 support in the 5020/6020 models is the same as the Elites?

Thanks for the explanation of the 983 strengths. I'll look on the 983 thread for further reporting by owners.

The Pios have great scalers. I am of the opinion, and info from other Pio plasma owners in the 983 thread, that the de-interlacer in the 983 bests the Pios de-interlacer. Allowing the 983 to also do the scaling keeps it all in the ABT solution, then use the Pio dot by dot. This is looking for that "nth" degree of improvement though, as those in the 983 thread with 8G Pios said the two choices were very close in quality.

John

So I just wanted to verify that the 1080p24 support in the 5020/6020 models is the same as the Elites?Yes it is. The phrase "True 1080p" is pure marketing hype no matter where it's used.

Thanks, Roman. Will do.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858851
First page :) Looking forward to your input on Monday.

D-Nice,

Thank you for the review. I have a 5020 and I am using your Movie setting. When I watch sports though I would like to try the Optimum mode. On your suggestions for Movie mode you have the Pure Cinema settings at:

Film Mode: Advance
Text Optimization: Off

Do you suggest the same for Optimum when watching sports or HD broadcast channels.

Does anyone know the width of the bezel or frame of the 151? Hung my mount today and tried to keep the sucker as low on the wall as possible and I had never thought of the height of my speakers being in the way of the panel itself. I am about 3.5 inches below my front left and right speakers :eek: Not a huge big deal but one sitting position (in the corner and not really used) could be partially blocked by my right speaker.


Thanks in advance if someone out there can take a measurement for me!!!

IMHO the black level is much better. Then again, however, I have this obsession with the quest for blackerness :D.

As far as input goes, all digital input goes through one HDMI (using receiver as a repeater/switcher), two components (for Wii and digital cable box) and one RF is more than enough for me.

If you are talking 9g...1 component.

I would take D-nice's luminance readings with a healthy grain of salt. According to this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14067828#post14067828), he was using a Konica-Minolta CS-1000 spectroradiometer which gave a luminance reading of 0.0014 fL on the Pioneer 6020 with 0% stimulus (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14065276#post14065276). However, a quick check of the specification sheet (http://www.konicaminolta.com/instruments/products/display/spectroradiometer/cs1000ast/specifications.html) revealed that the CS-1000 has a minimum luminance sensitivity of 0.01 cd/m2 +/- 2% +/- 1 digit, which means that its theoretical lowest limit for accuracy is 0.0029 fL, more than double of what D-nice measured.

Also, from D-nice's posts here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13773705#post13773705) and here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14067828#post14067828) it's clear that he has relied on the cheap and cheerful AEMC CA813 digital light meter (http://www.aemc.com/products/pdf/2121.20.pdf) (costs about $160) for luminance readings. The thing you need to know is that the CA813 is an illuminance meter which gives readings in lux or foot-candles. On the other hand, black level is measured as luminance, in fL (foot Lambert) or cd/m2. This article (http://www.tpub.com/content/gsacriteria/gsa_courtroom_lighting/gsa_courtroom_lighting0012.htm) explains the basic difference between luminance and illuminance.

There are a few documented methods of converting lux to foot Lambert (here's an excellent AVSforum tutorial applied to front projectors (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755705)), but they involve additional parameters like screen gain, screen area, etc. I'm not sure how D-nice arrived at his simplistic formula of converting lux to fL by just multiplying the reading by a factor of 0.929 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14068677#post14068677).

The Perfect Vision (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&q=site%3Aavguide.com+ls-100&btnG=Search) and Home Theater Mag (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&q=site%3Ahometheatermag.com+ls-100&btnG=Search) both use the Konica-Minolta LS-100 (a $3000 industrial grade spot-reading luminance meter with a specified sensitivity of down to 0.001 fL) to measure black level. While I appreciate D-nice's selfless contributions to these forums, I think he should not slag off the numbers measured by established magazines with superior instruments to what he has.

Best regards
JohnGrain of salt eh? I think you need to do A LOT more homework. Specifically, you need to COMPREHEND how a PDP display produces images. Simplistically speaking...you know something even you should be able to figure out....a PDP is an EMISSIVE display. That means, referencing your "simplistic" article you so generously provided, the PDP would be the FLASHLIGHT not the SCREEN.

Feel free to wait for HT magazine and/or Perfect Vision to review the 9G Kuros. When you see the come up with the same minimum luminance levels, you can eat a very healthy plate of crow my friend.

serlenbeck

57 3/4 w/o speakers

D dont worry about it, there will always be people questioning everything ;)

Hello. I'm in the market for a 50" television and am torn between the 5020 and 111.

a) Are the differences worth $1000?

b) Are they essentially the same television other than the fact that the 111FD allows more picture "tweaking"? Is the tweaking necessary (seems Movie mode is pretty darn good from what I've read).


Thanks in advance

Yes the main difference is the tweaking ability, it really depends on your budget but most will tell you that they can see a difference if one is side by side by the other.

I agree with Roman.

Jon if this is your first display I would not worry about picture settings.

Once you get the settings adjusted you will most likely leave them for the remaining of the time. Picture controls (i.e. gamma and temp settings) are nice to have, but I believe the extra $1000 can be spent somewhere else. Whats funny is that Samsung has among the best picture control, even on their lower end models. This was Pioneer's way of finding value on consumers upgrading to the Elite. If the Non-Elite had better picture control, there would be no reason to upgrade to the Elite. Same way with the Panasonic 800U. You will need to go to the 850U for better picture control.

Chris

Yes the main difference is the tweaking ability, it really depends on your budget but most will tell you that they can see a difference if one is side by side by the other.

Don't forget the different color filter. And those beautiful side speakers... ;)

Don't forget the different color filter. And those beautiful side speakers... ;)
And the ever so important stand for those who are not going to mount it.

Will a 9g in Optimum mode have "pop" in a moderately dark room ? I ask because the XBR5 I tried out had "pop" but hurt my eyes. Once i backed off on a/some picture controls to assuage my eyes the picture lost it's "pop". For anecdotal reasons
i assume I won't have to "back off" the picture settings on the 9g to prevent eye strain/pain. I also should state I'm NOT a fan of a calibrated picture even though I know I SHOULD be.Thanks

Scotty

Posted earlier about the width of the 9G bezel. I probably wasn't clear on what I was looking for as one of our members gave me the width of the panel without speakers (thank you for your response) but I needed the width of the arcrylic bezel or frame of the PDP. I can guess it's about 2 inches but if someone could throw a rule on it I would appreciate the info.

Again, thank you for your responses.

T minus 5 minutes til the Geek Squad begins the mounting process of the 6020 that John Marty of Axxis Audio was so nice to provide.

Well, they are basically DLP rear projection, so they better be lighter (assuming you meant "weight") than an all glass unit. And no, the ones demonstrated so far and coming to market this fall will not be 4 times the resolution, they are 1080p.

If having lasers instead of lamps excites you, I guess they are worth holding out for. Frankly I'm done with rear projection and have no interest in seeing speckle patterns and painfully bright colors, more ridiculous even than current LCDs.

TV's with frickin laaaazzzzer beams. Cool. Now that would have made things interesting if they were widely available when I was TV shopping. One of the major reasons I chose Plasma over LCD is that no self-respecting sci-fi villain (or Transformer) would ever carry an LCD cannon.

I needed the width of the arcrylic bezel or frame of the PDP. I can guess it's about 2 inches but if someone could throw a rule on it I would appreciate the info.

Again, thank you for your responses.



I "should" be getting a 151 today between 12-4pm, my road is under contruction so i hope to god they can still deliver it. there digging a big hole in the middle of the street as we speak, one house down from me. as long as they don't expand up the road...:eek:

anyways if it comes ill get your measurement

I am wondering what the advantages/disadvantages are between the 111 and 151 if price is no object. I currently have a JVC DILA 52" that sits on a stand several feet in front of where I will be mounting a new Elite on the wall. I am concerned that I might be disappointed dropping 2" in size and moving back a couple feet. Then again, I don't want a monster screen for such a small room either. The viewing distance from the wall will probably be about 10-12'. Thanks for your input :)

I "should" be getting a 151 today between 12-4pm, my road is under contruction so i hope to god they can still deliver it. there digging a big hole in the middle of the street as we speak, one house down from me. as long as they don't expand up the road...:eek:

anyways if it comes ill get your measurement

Thanks, makaveli. Hope she makes it to her home nice and safe!

I am wondering what the advantages/disadvantages are between the 111 and 151 if price is no object. I currently have a JVC DILA 52" that sits on a stand several feet in front of where I will be mounting a new Elite on the wall. I am concerned that I might be disappointed dropping 2" in size and moving back a couple feet. Then again, I don't want a monster screen for such a small room either. The viewing distance from the wall will probably be about 10-12'. Thanks for your input :)

I don't know mattmorr, at 9-10', I've got a 60" rptv and concerned about loosing 2" if I would go with a Panny 58".

The 6020 is mounted and I have not received Evan's break-in dvd that I ordered 1 week ago.

What should I do for the time being. I think I read that Pixar animation films are good. Please advise.

why dont u just burn the break in DVD from this website to disk? it works fine.

Don't forget the different color filter. And those beautiful side speakers... ;)
The speakers are not a plus for the elites .....if some one spends 4-5K on a TV they better own some good speakers and receiver... as far as the color filter is concerned i think the only way to distinguish is by comparing side by side....

May be DNice or Robert can add more information for this......

Just posted some brief thoughts on my new 111 on the 9g Elite owners thread if anyone was curious. I found it hard to put into words how amazing this panel is but hopefully soon D-Nice will help me put into words how incredible these 9g Elites truly are when he does his in depth review. I like most of us are anxiously awaiting for that as well as his settings for PURE mode:)

BTW D, did your 111 ship today? whats the ETA on it?

Will a 9g in Optimum mode have "pop" in a moderately dark room ? I ask because the XBR5 I tried out had "pop" but hurt my eyes. Once i backed off on a/some picture controls to assuage my eyes the picture lost it's "pop". For anecdotal reasons
i assume I won't have to "back off" the picture settings on the 9g to prevent eye strain/pain. I also should state I'm NOT a fan of a calibrated picture even though I know I SHOULD be.Thanks

Scotty

The 6020 has fantastic "Pop" in several of it's alternate A/V modes, in both dark and lighted rooms. If you're not a huge stickler for color accuracy not only Optimum mode but also performance and standard mode give you sort of a "mid" color temp.

Then even Sport and Dynamic might look pleasing if you want to go "high" for certain material.

While some of these A/V modes as set out-of-box admittedly almost butcher a real film sourced movie when compared to the super clean movie mode I find they can really shine on other video based material (TV, concerts for example), CGI, some standard dvd's etc.

Essentially your color tempatures are represented here it's just not independant from a corresponding set of (still somewhat adjustable) baseline settings. Personally I'd say sticking religously by the great movie mode for material other that pure film based source would be missing out on some of the beautiful looks this panel is capable of displaying.

can someone point me in the direction of where to find the Break-in pictures (jpg) files in order to do the break-in via thumb drive on the USB port on my Kuro????

EDIT:
i found them. they are on Evangelo's website.
I need to get those JPG files but they are zipped up on the website. My computer is down right now and I am using my PS3. The Ps3 can't unzip files:).
If someone already has those files availible, could you do me a big favor and PM them to me unzipped?? :)
I would be forever in your debt.

Thanks,
Chad
What are you doing with the severe Buzz on your pioneer...not exchanging it?

What are you doing with the severe Buzz on your pioneer...not exchanging it?I believe he is using one of the power save modes to reduce the "buzz," which unfortunately also "dims" the picture.

Kind of a lose/lose situation.

I believe he is using one of the power save modes to reduce the "buzz," which unfortunately also "dims" the picture.

Kind of a lose/lose situation.
why not just return or exchange it? This is totally BS that we spend so much money on a TV and they screw us over like this

why not just return or exchange it? This is totally BS that we spend so much money on a TV and they screw us over like thisThis is exactly what I would do...

IMO no:

1) de d/stuck pixels

2) buzz

3) blotches or streaks

will do.

My experience has been that for those individuals who are willing to "settle" for less... they will generally get less too.

I am wondering what the advantages/disadvantages are between the 111 and 151 if price is no object. I currently have a JVC DILA 52" that sits on a stand several feet in front of where I will be mounting a new Elite on the wall. I am concerned that I might be disappointed dropping 2" in size and moving back a couple feet. Then again, I don't want a monster screen for such a small room either. The viewing distance from the wall will probably be about 10-12'. Thanks for your input :)

The only difference afaik between the 111 and 151 is size and price.

fwiw, I only sit about 8' from the screen and I LOVE my new 6020. The only pictures that are bad are some of the more compressed channels on Dish. For most of the HD channels, DVDs, and Blu-Rays, watching 60 inches from 8ft away is fan freakin' tastic! :)

This is exactly what I would do...

IMO no:

1) de d/stuck pixels

2) buzz

3) blotches or streaks

will do.

My experience has been that for those individuals who are willing to "settle" for less... they will generally get less too.
But I dont think there is any good quality plasma like pioneer out there which matches theperformance....that is a sacrifice people are willing to make....Even though I am upset that pioneer is not doing anything to fix this issue, I still dont think it is "settling" for a lesser one

But I dont think there is any good quality plasma like pioneer out there which matches theperformance....that is a sacrifice people are willing to make....Even though I am upset that pioneer is not doing anything to fix this issue, I still dont think it is "settling" for a lesser one

I think Optivity's point was not about passing on the 9G Kuro, but returning sets ad infinitum until the person gets one that passes his or her own internal QC standards.

This is exactly what I would do...

IMO no:

1) de d/stuck pixels

2) buzz

3) blotches or streaks

will do.




+1 But is it possible? :)

I think Optivity's point was not about passing on the 9G Kuro, but returning sets ad infinitum until the person gets one that passes his or her own internal QC standards.Exactly. I anticipate that overall the 9G series will be as good, probably better, than the 8G series Kuro PDPs.

But if you get a "stinker," do not hesitate to exchange it for another.

Exactly. I anticipate that overall the 9G series will be as good, probably better, than the 8G series Kuro PDPs.

But if you get a "stinker," do not hesitate to exchange it for another.
Which means you have to buy it from BB or tweeter and not forum sponsors....and who knows these problems might manifest after 1 - 2 months and then you are STUCK

Which means you have to buy it from BB or tweeter and not forum sponsors....Not really, but there is more of a convenience factor when buying from the B&M, which is why you pay more.and who knows these problems might manifest after 1 - 2 months and then you are STUCKWhich is why it behooves you to understand your return/exchange policy. Most problems will be apparent right out of the box so if nothing major goes wrong during the first 30 days... you are probably good to go.

first of all, wanted to thank you for all of your hard work on the review... i think that after reading your review, i have made my decision to get the 5020.... just a couple questions, if you don't mind:

1. i am a casual viewer, so what would be the mode and the settings for everyday use? and what about for the movies?

2. what exactly is the purpose of break in periods for plasma displays? how do i do it? and what mode and settings should it be on?

i am sure that these questions have already been answered (probably a million times over) but this thread has gotten a bit too difficult to navigate with all the posts and all....

thanks in advance....

Posted earlier about the width of the 9G bezel. I probably wasn't clear on what I was looking for as one of our members gave me the width of the panel without speakers (thank you for your response) but I needed the width of the arcrylic bezel or frame of the PDP. I can guess it's about 2 inches but if someone could throw a rule on it I would appreciate the info.

Again, thank you for your responses.
In case no one's gotten around to this, the bezel is 2 5/8" on top and bottom, and 2 3/4" on the sides.

why not just return or exchange it? This is totally BS that we spend so much money on a TV and they screw us over like this

I have a bad buzzer too. I'll probably end up exchanging it (I have 30 days at Mag), but all the buzz/pixel talk leads me to think that I only have about a 50-50 chance of getting improvement. (That of course means there's a 50-50 chance of getting something worse, as the one I have is picture-perfect.)

But I dont think there is any good quality plasma like pioneer out there which matches theperformance....that is a sacrifice people are willing to make....Even though I am upset that pioneer is not doing anything to fix this issue, I still dont think it is "settling" for a lesser one

Agreed, there's no better picture. But believe me, if you tolerate a TV that sounds like a bad flourescent tube light, you are settling.

I am wondering what the advantages/disadvantages are between the 111 and 151 if price is no object. I currently have a JVC DILA 52" that sits on a stand several feet in front of where I will be mounting a new Elite on the wall. I am concerned that I might be disappointed dropping 2" in size and moving back a couple feet. Then again, I don't want a monster screen for such a small room either. The viewing distance from the wall will probably be about 10-12'. Thanks for your input :)

the 151 has a huge 44% more screen area than a 111. unless you have a space or budget restriction get the 151. for only the $1k (24%+) in cost difference you get that 44% more screen area which makes a huge difference. It seems like a very easy choice to make especially if you are going to be sitting even further away than your previous viewing position.

1. i am a casual viewer, so what would be the mode and the settings for everyday use? and what about for the movies?I recommend Movie mode.

2. what exactly is the purpose of break in periods for plasma displays?For the Kuros, it's to evenly and equally age the phosphors during their most volitile time frame.

how do i do it?Post one of the 9G non-Elite Kuro thread.

and what mode and settings should it be on?You can use the break-in settings referneced in post of the 9G non-Elite Kuro thread

Do the TVs themselves keep track of their hours in use? Is there some place hidden away in the menu where you can check how many hours your set has?

Do the TVs themselves keep track of their hours in use? Is there some place hidden away in the menu where you can check how many hours your set has?

The service menu is where you look for that.

Do the TVs themselves keep track of their hours in use? Is there some place hidden away in the menu where you can check how many hours your set has?

once the service menu access is gained on the 9g.......dnice any word yet on that?

it should have hours plugged in and hours the panel is actually turned on in the service menu.

once the service menu access is gained on the 9g.......dnice any word yet on that?

it should have hours plugged in and hours the panel is actually turned on in the service menu.
Wow...hours plugged in? Can you think of why that would be relevant to service techs?

D-nice i think you movie settings worked great when I was evaluation G9 in a store. A friend and I was there for nearly three hours discussing the black levels. We turned off all the "enhancement" we could find in the user menu. Luckily we also find the RGB-cuts and gains both on the 60" we mostly watched on, and also on the smaller 50" there was those sought after paramaters.

I only found calibration of the brightness was a little bit difficult. To bring out details in the picture I found that I wanted to stop the brightness "half way". Naturally this is not possible. Going in to the gamma setting made things a little bit easier. We thought gamma number two was the best.

I thought, and so my friend, that the increments of the steps in the brightness could have been smaller. I dont know if "increments" is the right word but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Did you also find it difficult to find the "perfect" black level settings? And what are your thoughts of what can be done in the service menu about this "issue"?

Robert

More connections, more picture tweaking options, lower price.
Only you can decide if the additional "blackness" of the 9G is worth the additional money :) While I do like the best picture possible, for me, chasing that last nth degree was not worth the price premium, ymmv :)

John

IMHO the black level is much better. Then again, however, I have this obsession with the quest for blackerness :D.

As far as input goes, all digital input goes through one HDMI (using receiver as a repeater/switcher), two components (for Wii and digital cable box) and one RF is more than enough for me.

Still, the 5020 has only one component input. Phooey. I've downloaded its manual, and I'm going to do more research on it.

There was a page on the Big Picture Big Sound website concerning Pioneer's press event which introduced their 2008 line. Written by Chris Boylan, the report mentions that the 5020 black levels "were noticeably better than any of the competing brands on display (LCD models from Samsung and Sony and plasma models from Samsung and Panasonic), and even significantly improved from its predecessor, the PDP-5010." No mention of Elites in the article. http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/hometheater.shtml

The key will be whether the term "significantly better" pans out according to my eyes and perspective. According to the accompanying images, the 5020 does out-black a Sony XBR5. And the "nth" degree isn't something I'm after either necessarily, so I have no thoughts of a 10G Pioneer. I plan to be satisfied with whatever I get.

the report mentions that the 5020 black levels "were noticeably better than any of the competing brands on display (LCD models from Samsung and Sony and plasma models from Samsung and Panasonic), and even significantly improved from its predecessor, the PDP-5010."I don't know if this is true, but there have been reports that the 9G series may be more prone to black crush than their 8G not-so Kuro predecessors.

In case no one's gotten around to this, the bezel is 2 5/8" on top and bottom, and 2 3/4" on the sides.

progprog---Thank You

I don't know if this is true, but there have been reports that the 9G series may be more prone to black crush than their 8G not-so Kuro predecessors.

It's possible in theory. That reminds me of the Pioneer Elite 110/Samsung T5281F battle in Sound & Vision. "To the LCD's credit, its less-deep black made for more shadow detail" is the line I remember.

Could there be a point of diminishing returns as the black levels go up? I wonder.

why dont u just burn the break in DVD from this website to disk? it works fine.

I would have burned it but my soon to be 3 year old son decided to remove a part from my Dell DVD drive, and it is inoperable at present.

The good news is the Break-in DVD just arrived in the mail. I was starting to go stir crazy watching "Cars" :D

T minus 150 hours and counting.....

Now I just need a Universal remote. I have 5 remotes right now. The biggest pain is the Directv remote changes the stations, while the Denon 3808CI remote must be used to change the volume.

Robert carries the UCR MX900I remote. Was almost deadset on the Harmony 890. Anybody use either one??

The viewing distance from the wall will probably be about 10-12'. Thanks for your input :)You're viewing distance is perfect for a 60" display. That's what I have at that distance. ;)

A bigger screen enhances movies on DVD, HD-DVD, and Blu-ray, or HDTV nature and sports. The other stuff on TV is just fine with a smaller screen. Your viewing habits should determine which size screen will work best for you.

The 6020 is mounted and I have not received Evan's break-in dvd that I ordered 1 week ago.

What should I do for the time being. I think I read that Pixar animation films are good. Please advise.Just be sure you DON'T use the break-in settings without the break-in DVD. Any source material is fine as long as it fills the screen and doesn't have any fixed images that stay on the screen for a long time -- black bars would be one example.

ok so i finally got my tv, my tv stand has this top piece that boxes in the tv. needless to say it is really gettings in the way. so i can't get my hands behind the tv to turn it with the speakers on. so i turn it at the base and the back brackets with the holes in it have so convently been scratching my table top...so i dunno but its very frustrating. trying to debate if i should take this top piece of the tv stand and put it next to the dinning room table for the next 10 years. its just looking like its going to be really rough setting up all these cables and scratching the table each time....err r any ideas?

It's possible in theory. That reminds me of the Pioneer Elite 110/Samsung T5281F battle in Sound & Vision. "To the LCD's credit, its less-deep black made for more shadow detail" is the line I remember.

Could there be a point of diminishing returns as the black levels go up? I wonder.

*cough*

Hello,

Here I really want to chime in.

I own one of those Samsung 81F LCDs and I assure you they do not provide more shadow detail than the 8G Kuros (and, while I haven't seen one in action yet, I have full trust that the 9Gs will blow the 81Fs and XBR8s to smithereens). The way the 81Fs work is by local dimming of sectors of their LED backlight arrays. One unpleasant side-effect of this is that one loses some of the shadow details that a properly calibrated plasma will faithfully represent. If the local dimming were performed on individual LEDs, this problem would not exist, but cost concerns forced Samsung to opt to dim much larger sectors at a time (for example, the local dimming sectors on my tv are on an 8x8 grid).

I mean no disrespect to Sound & Vision, but their statement here:

(1) makes no sense, as far as I can tell, and
(2) is empirically false, as your own eyes will confirm if you test the two televisions, as I did.

In fact, my single greatest complaint with my 81F is all the low-IRE shadow detail that ends up getting smeared and blurred by the local dimming algorithms.

The whole point of the Kuros' superior black levels is that they manage to deliver their deep blacks without sacrificing any shadow detail. As I understand it, the range of shades of grey they are able to deliver at the low IREs substantially exceeds that of other tvs and this results in superior shadow details and black levels. (Aficionados, do I have this wrong, or did I state it correctly?)

Yours,

David

ok so i finally got my tv, my tv stand has this top piece that boxes in the tv. needless to say it is really gettings in the way. so i can't get my hands behind the tv to turn it with the speakers on. so i turn it at the base and the back brackets with the holes in it have so convently been scratching my table top...so i dunno but its very frustrating. trying to debate if i should take this top piece of the tv stand and put it next to the dinning room table for the next 10 years. its just looking like its going to be really rough setting up all these cables and scratching the table each time....err r any ideas?

Good grief... :confused:

D dont worry about it, there will always be people questioning everything ;)

Yeah, I wanna second that. Don't let the "critic-critics" get you down, D-Nice; the work you do here is second to none. I'm planning to buy a Kuro (still vacillating between 9G and 10G) largely because of the work you have done to demonstrate what they are capable of.

-David

I don't know if this is true, but there have been reports that the 9G series may be more prone to black crush than their 8G not-so Kuro predecessors.That depends on the A/V mode. Movie mode has ZERO black crush. It actually provides MORE shadow details than my 1150HD.

Yeah, I wanna second that. Don't let the "critic-critics" get you down, D-Nice; the work you do here is second to none. I'm planning to buy a Kuro (still vacillating between 9G and 10G) largely because of the work you have done to demonstrate what they are capable of.

-DavidI do not mind critics. I have issues with so-called critics who are clueless to what they are attempting to critique.

Wow...hours plugged in? Can you think of why that would be relevant to service techs?

Yes, this is quite an advanced feature. Allows you to calculate the percentage of hours (hours ON / hours plugged IN) you spent on the couch for your entire life since you've purchased your Kuro. Do not share this option with your spouse. :)

are them tv "tipping prevention" brackets neccsary if you don't plan to screw them into your tv stand?

This is exactly what I would do...

IMO no:

1) de d/stuck pixels

2) buzz

3) blotches or streaks

will do.

My experience has been that for those individuals who are willing to "settle" for less... they will generally get less too.

Mine has a black blotch issue when there's no signal going to the screen. I don't see it during normal video content, so that's not an issue.

However I do have a "dirty screen" effect going on. I can only see it when there's a solid image of one color covering the whole screen. With the "dirty screen" effect, there are also about two streaks...again, I can only see it with when a solid color fills most of the screen. Can I see this effect during regular video programming? Yes, but the screen has to have a solid color of some sort AND I have to be REALLY looking for it.

I'm still within my 30 day exchange policy. However the effect is so slight to not even be noticeable, and the fact that all the pixels work, hardly any or no buzz to me it's not even worth to exchange it as the other display might have other problems that may bother me more. That and the hassle of going through the exchange and another break-in period again it's pretty much not worth the hassle.

I would also like to point out that the display that this replaced was a older Pioneer rear projection CRT. That has a whole list of issues I don't even have with the new screen and they drove me really nuts. Such as convergence (that had to be tweaked every now and then) color shift when viewing at different angles, brightness shifts that changed depending on how high or low I sat, overscan that was about 12% and even after ISF calibration, many faces looked sunburnt and black levels that change a lot between film and video sourced recordings.

With the new plasma set and with D-Nice's settings, I have had no need to change brightness levels. And even when I felt that I could have bumped it up a notch or two, it still was not all that bad. I don't see anymore of the sunburned faces effects, colors look natural and not poppy like the other set exhibited, non to very little overscan (depending on settings) full 1080p and the ability to accept 720p signals and have it do wonders with that signal. The fact that movies now look very realistic with it's 24/72fps feature...going from 53" to 60" is nice, PERFECT geometry and the list goes on. Oh, and I do want to mention real black bars in wide movies that blend with the TV. I could not even get close to that with my other TV without loosing shadow detail!

I think that many on this board upgrade at least once a year and some even more, though for me, this step marks a huge improvement and I know this set will keep me happy for at least six years and maybe up to eight. Then again, we will see what happens in five to six years.

Hi D-Nice,

You may remember me as one of the critical voices surrounding the buzz problem with the 8Gs. I went through two 110-FDs that had the same "extreme buzzing" problem so I returned them. I just received delivery of a 111 today, and I am happy to report that this panel is almost dead silent from the front. You have to get within one foot to hear the faintest of buzzes, certainly nothing that calls attention to itself at all, unlike the 110 panels whose buzz would change amplitude with the dynamics of the video content being displayed. Needless to say, I am breathing a heavy sigh of relief, and my confidence in Pioneer is restored.
I do not mind critics. I have issues with so-called critics who are clueless to what they are attempting to critique.

ok so i finally got my tv, my tv stand has this top piece that boxes in the tv. needless to say it is really gettings in the way. so i can't get my hands behind the tv to turn it with the speakers on. so i turn it at the base and the back brackets with the holes in it have so convently been scratching my table top...so i dunno but its very frustrating. trying to debate if i should take this top piece of the tv stand and put it next to the dinning room table for the next 10 years. its just looking like its going to be really rough setting up all these cables and scratching the table each time....err r any ideas?

If you're just talking about those extra "screw-down" brackets on the back of the stand, why not just take them off? I never bothered to put them on in the first place, as I knew I was never going to screw anything into my stand. Without those, there are just rubber feet making contact.

are them tv "tipping prevention" brackets neccsary if you don't plan to screw them into your tv stand?

No, they are not.

The 5080 is not an Elite. Also, umr has measured some 1150s with the same 0.004fL as mine.

I do not know what meter The Perfect Vision used in their review. You have to remember that light meter sensitivity will vary and you need something that is accurate down to 0.001fL to measure the 8Gs.

I would take D-nice's luminance readings with a healthy grain of salt. According to this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14067828#post14067828), he was using a Konica-Minolta CS-1000 spectroradiometer which gave a luminance reading of 0.0014 fL on the Pioneer 6020 with 0% stimulus (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14065276#post14065276). However, a quick check of the specification sheet (http://www.konicaminolta.com/instruments/products/display/spectroradiometer/cs1000ast/specifications.html) revealed that the CS-1000 has a minimum luminance sensitivity of 0.01 cd/m2 +/- 2% +/- 1 digit, which means that its theoretical lowest limit for accuracy is 0.0029 fL, more than double of what D-nice measured.

Also, from D-nice's posts here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13773705#post13773705) and here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14067828#post14067828) it's clear that he has relied on the cheap and cheerful AEMC CA813 digital light meter (http://www.aemc.com/products/pdf/2121.20.pdf) (costs about $160) for luminance readings. The thing you need to know is that the CA813 is an illuminance meter which gives readings in lux or foot-candles. On the other hand, black level is measured as luminance, in fL (foot Lambert) or cd/m2. This article (http://www.tpub.com/content/gsacriteria/gsa_courtroom_lighting/gsa_courtroom_lighting0012.htm) explains the basic difference between luminance and illuminance.

There are a few documented methods of converting lux to foot Lambert (here's an excellent AVSforum tutorial applied to front projectors (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755705)), but they involve additional parameters like screen gain, screen area, etc. I'm not sure how D-nice arrived at his simplistic formula of converting lux to fL by just multiplying the reading by a factor of 0.929 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14068677#post14068677).

The Perfect Vision (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&q=site%3Aavguide.com+ls-100&btnG=Search) and Home Theater Mag (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&q=site%3Ahometheatermag.com+ls-100&btnG=Search) both use the Konica-Minolta LS-100 (a $3000 industrial grade spot-reading luminance meter with a specified sensitivity of down to 0.001 fL) to measure black level. While I appreciate D-nice's selfless contributions to these forums, I think he should not slag off the numbers measured by established magazines with superior instruments to what he has.

Best regards
John

Grain of salt eh? I think you need to do A LOT more homework. Specifically, you need to COMPREHEND how a PDP display produces images. Simplistically speaking...you know something even you should be able to figure out....a PDP is an EMISSIVE display. That means, referencing your "simplistic" article you so generously provided, the PDP would be the FLASHLIGHT not the SCREEN.

Precisely my point. You are (mis)using a $160 illuminance meter (the AEMC CA813), which is meant to measure the degree to which something is illuminated, to measure the amount of light (i.e. black-level luminance) produced by an emissive PDP display.

And you have conveniently sidestepped my original query as to how you managed to record and publish a black level measurement which is below the accuracy limit of the CS-1000 spectroradiometer.

I do not mind critics. I have issues with so-called critics who are clueless to what they are attempting to critique.

Talk about pot calling the kettle black. You were the one who initially questioned the light meter used by The Perfect Vision, and all I have tried to bring to light (no pun intended) is the fact that the Konica-Minolta LS-100 used by them is far more accurate and superior to your CS-1000 and CA813 when it comes to low-light luminance sensitivity.

Best regards
John

That depends on the A/V mode. Movie mode has ZERO black crush. It actually provides MORE shadow details than my 1150HD.

I noticed my 6020 has more detail than my 6010 did. I used that same Spiderman scene I was comparing my 6010 to my SXRD with. On a side note, I noticed that Optimum MAJORLY crused details in this scene. WAY more than any other mode.

*cough*

Hello,

Here I really want to chime in.

I own one of those Samsung 81F LCDs and I assure you they do not provide more shadow detail than the 8G Kuros (and, while I haven't seen one in action yet, I have full trust that the 9Gs will blow the 81Fs and XBR8s to smithereens). The way the 81Fs work is by local dimming of sectors of their LED backlight arrays. One unpleasant side-effect of this is that one loses some of the shadow details that a properly calibrated plasma will faithfully represent. If the local dimming were performed on individual LEDs, this problem would not exist, but cost concerns forced Samsung to opt to dim much larger sectors at a time (for example, the local dimming sectors on my tv are on an 8x8 grid).

I mean no disrespect to Sound & Vision, but their statement here:

(1) makes no sense, as far as I can tell, and
(2) is empirically false, as your own eyes will confirm if you test the two televisions, as I did.

In fact, my single greatest complaint with my 81F is all the low-IRE shadow detail that ends up getting smeared and blurred by the local dimming algorithms.

The whole point of the Kuros' superior black levels is that they manage to deliver their deep blacks without sacrificing any shadow detail. As I understand it, the range of shades of grey they are able to deliver at the low IREs substantially exceeds that of other tvs and this results in superior shadow details and black levels. (Aficionados, do I have this wrong, or did I state it correctly?)

Yours,

David

Hello David,

I should note that "more shadow detail" statement (I pulled out the issue to check this) was with regard to a particular scene in the movie Black Book, where red brickwork in a mansion and a tree in front of it had more detail on the Samsung because (according to S&V) its black was less deep. But that same scene was noted to have more image depth and dimension on the Pioneer, seen as a black car pulled up to the same red-brick mansion. The Pioneer's extra low-level detail allowed the car to stand out even against the dark background (more "etched and dimensional," the article said). The three S&V guys judged the plasma to be the better TV overall.

I did see the Samsung in a store and saw what you described, though not in direct comparison to the 110 as it was running different program material and not next to the Samsung. I've read reviews that agree with what you describe also, in that the 81's LED-dimming function seems dependent upon the right program material to do its best work.

I thought my 5 day old 5010 was perfect, but upon closer inspection, I too have a couple of "streaks"....... dirty screen effect if you will. It is VERY minor, and as you stated, there has to be a solid color or no pic on the screen to see it, and then you have to look hard. I can live with it. Glad it is just a couple though, and not all over the screen.

John


Mine has a black blotch issue when there's no signal going to the screen. I don't see it during normal video content, so that's not an issue.

However I do have a "dirty screen" effect going on. I can only see it when there's a solid image of one color covering the whole screen. With the "dirty screen" effect, there are also about two streaks...again, I can only see it with when a solid color fills most of the screen. Can I see this effect during regular video programming? Yes, but the screen has to have a solid color of some sort AND I have to be REALLY looking for it.

I'm still within my 30 day exchange policy. However the effect is so slight to not even be noticeable, and the fact that all the pixels work, hardly any or no buzz to me it's not even worth to exchange it as the other display might have other problems that may bother me more. That and the hassle of going through the exchange and another break-in period again it's pretty much not worth the hassle.

I would also like to point out that the display that this replaced was a older Pioneer rear projection CRT. That has a whole list of issues I don't even have with the new screen and they drove me really nuts. Such as convergence (that had to be tweaked every now and then) color shift when viewing at different angles, brightness shifts that changed depending on how high or low I sat, overscan that was about 12% and even after ISF calibration, many faces looked sunburnt and black levels that change a lot between film and video sourced recordings.

With the new plasma set and with D-Nice's settings, I have had no need to change brightness levels. And even when I felt that I could have bumped it up a notch or two, it still was not all that bad. I don't see anymore of the sunburned faces effects, colors look natural and not poppy like the other set exhibited, non to very little overscan (depending on settings) full 1080p and the ability to accept 720p signals and have it do wonders with that signal. The fact that movies now look very realistic with it's 24/72fps feature...going from 53" to 60" is nice, PERFECT geometry and the list goes on. Oh, and I do want to mention real black bars in wide movies that blend with the TV. I could not even get close to that with my other TV without loosing shadow detail!

I think that many on this board upgrade at least once a year and some even more, though for me, this step marks a huge improvement and I know this set will keep me happy for at least six years and maybe up to eight. Then again, we will see what happens in five to six years.

The only difference afaik between the 111 and 151 is size and price.

fwiw, I only sit about 8' from the screen and I LOVE my new 6020. The only pictures that are bad are some of the more compressed channels on Dish. For most of the HD channels, DVDs, and Blu-Rays, watching 60 inches from 8ft away is fan freakin' tastic! :)

I think that helps my decision :)

Just be sure you DON'T use the break-in settings without the break-in DVD. Any source material is fine as long as it fills the screen and doesn't have any fixed images that stay on the screen for a long time -- black bars would be one example.

What would happen if I forget to change the settings and turn on a baseball game??

How long does the break-in dvd last until it reaches the end and I have to press the "play" button again?

What would happen if I forget to change the settings and turn on a baseball game??The fixed elements of the image could be burned into the phosphor of your display so that you would see that image at various times for as long as your display was working. It's called burn-in.

How long does the break-in dvd last until it reaches the end and I have to press the "play" button again?To use the break-in settings with the break-in DVD you have to have a DVD player that can be set to repeat. The DVD has about 45 minute of playing time before the player should cause it to repeat.

You seem to be very new to this. It might be better to just use D-Nice's reference settings for your display, and forget using the break-in settings.

If you do that then you have to remember to avoid black bars and sports events with fixed images like score keeping for about 200 hours. There are instructions in the user's manual for balancing the types of material you watch after that.

You would want to watch movies that fill the screen, or HDTV programs like those on Discovery Channel that also fill the screen. You can also use the break-in DVD with reference settings when you're not watching "safe" program material.

The break-in settings are very intense in order to speed up the process of aging the phosphor.

The dvd will restart on it's own when it reaches the end.

It will run for 24hrs. then start over.

Agreed, there's no better picture. But believe me, if you tolerate a TV that sounds like a bad flourescent tube light, you are settling.

I fully agree. For this premium for a 6020 - I would expect something that works without buzzing noise. I am also thought going into this the settings would not be a problem. On most televisions, I set the picture and never change it again. On this one, I am disappointed on getting the right setting initially.

The fixed elements of the image could be burned into the phosphor of your display so that you would see that image at various times for as long as your display was working. It's called burn-in.

To use the break-in settings with the break-in DVD you have to have a DVD player that can be set to repeat. The DVD has about 45 minute of playing time before the player should cause it to repeat.

You seem to be very new to this. It might be better to just use D-Nice's reference settings for your display, and forget using the break-in settings.

If you do that then you have to remember to avoid black bars and sports events with fixed images like score keeping for about 200 hours. There are instructions in the user's manual for balancing the types of material you watch after that.

You would want to watch movies that fill the screen, or HDTV programs like those on Discovery Channel that also fill the screen. You can also use the break-in DVD with reference settings when you're not watching "safe" program material.

The break-in settings are very intense in order to speed up the process of aging the phosphor.

My DVD player does not have a "repeat" mode:mad:

I fully agree. For this premium for a 6020 - I would expect something that works without buzzing noise. I am also thought going into this the settings would not be a problem. On most televisions, I set the picture and never change it again. On this one, I am disappointed on getting the right setting initially.

I had the Panasonic 800u and it buzzes too. It's part of the plasma technology. Also if you think with "most tvs" you can set the picture and never change it again, you're dreaming.

I use LCD extensively for my photo post and I have to re-calibrate my monitors every two weeks to get dead-even calibration. My CRT RPTV needs to get it calibrated once a year minimum, my regular CRT needs calibrated once a year too. Especially the first couple hundred hours of those displays being used.

Just started my break-in. The screen is white. Does it stay white, and then change to different colors? Just want to know what to look for.

Have no buzzing, and I only see one stuck/dead pixel, which I am sure will fix itself after break-in.

is this "new" optimum mode any good? I don't use it on my pro-150fd

Just started my break-in.Which settings are you using?

The screen is white. Does it stay white, and then change to different colors? Just want to know what to look for.The test patterns are solid colors in varying shades from light to dark. The disk will run for about 45 minutes and then stop if your DVD player has no repeat mode. Are you sure that your DVD player doesn't have a repeat mode? What DVD player are you using?

Have no buzzing, and I only see one stuck/dead pixel, which I am sure will fix itself after break-in.If the pixel you see is black it's dead and won't correct itself. If it's colored (stuck), then there are several methods you can use to try to activate it.

It's not a good idea to use the break-in settings with the break-in DVD if your DVD player won't repeat automatically. There is too much room for human error.

Which settings are you using?

The test patterns are solid colors in varying shades from light to dark. The disk will run for about 45 minutes and then stop if your DVD player has no repeat mode. Are you sure that your DVD player doesn't have a repeat mode? What DVD player are you using?

If the pixel you see is black it's dead and won't correct itself. If it's colored (stuck), then there are several methods you can use to try to activate it.

It's not a good idea to use the break-in settings with the break-in DVD if your DVD player won't repeat automatically. There is too much room for human error.

Using D-Nice break-in settings of course.
I have a Panasonic S97 DVD player. Sure can't find a repeat mode.
The stuck pixel looks navy blue to me

Using D-Nice break-in settings of course.
I have a Panasonic S97 DVD player. Sure can't find a repeat mode.
The stuck pixel looks navy blue to me


I am in luck. The S97 DVD player just repeated the break-in DVD automatically.

As long as I am on the topic of DVD players, I feel like replacing the Panny S97. I have read alot about the Oppo 980 being a good match for the 6020. Are there any Blu-ray players that can handle all DVD formats that would be a good match that are either presently available, or are in the works for the next 12 months?

My DVD player does not have a "repeat" mode:mad:

Mine doesn't either, but I downloaded and burned that one that Evangelo offers for free (http://www.eaprogramming.com/) and it just seems to automatically play in a loop.

I have read alot about the Oppo 980 being a good match for the 6020.The OPPO is good for SD DVD output at 480i using HDMI which is a good match for your display.

Are there any Blu-ray players that can handle all DVD formats that would be a good match that are either presently available, or are in the works for the next 12 months?The Pioneer BDP-51FD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14194053#post14194053) will be out at the end of July with an MSRP of $599. It's a Blu-Ray player that Robert says will be exceptional with 8G and 9G Kuro displays. The thread I linked above is a speculation thread. You can watch for an owner's thread to start in a few weeks.

The OPPO is good for SD DVD output at 480i using HDMI which is a good match for your display.

The Pioneer BDP-51FD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14194053#post14194053) will be out at the end of July with an MSRP of $599. It's a Blu-Ray player that Robert says will be exceptional with 8G and 9G Kuro displays. The thread I linked above is a speculation thread. You can watch for an owner's thread to start in a few weeks.
I just took a peek and that thread's over 100pp long! :eek: In a nutshell, do you know what key difference that player us expected to have from the existing BDP-95FD?

Just looked at pics from the beginning of that thread: looks like maybe a slightly more basic unit. No RS232 control, for example.

Which means you have to buy it from BB or tweeter and not forum sponsors....and who knows these problems might manifest after 1 - 2 months and then you are STUCK

this bugs me, too. I would much rather purchase from a forum sponsor than from another internet website or a BM vendor. they are terrific.

alas, our forum dealers have to live by the pioneer policies. this means that if you have a set with 5-7 bad pixels, you are as stuck as your pixels if I understand it correctly. I presume this would be the case at Best Buy, too, except that they have a "no questions asked" exchange policy. Afaik, this does not apply to our forum sponsors.

so, one day I am thinking that I will send Robert or Roman or ... my credit card number; the next day, I am wondering whether I want to just go B&M.

(add to this my indecision about the $150 white-glove charge, the fact that the safe packaging weighs 170lbs and thus is barely movable, and the fact that it is likely to be a space heater [300W?] when operating. (anyone know the 6020 power consumption?).)

/iaw

Which means you have to buy it from BB or tweeter and not forum sponsors....and who knows these problems might manifest after 1 - 2 months and then you are STUCK

First take a look at my last post here
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14194695#post14194695

Second you should go with whatever makes you comfortable but making a statement like you are "stuck" is not only false but uncalled for.

Third if you need clarification just do a search and no one in many years has been "STUCK"
Thank you.

First take a look at my last post here
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14194695#post14194695

Second you should go with whatever makes you comfortable but making a statement like you are "stuck" is not only false but uncalled for.

Third if you need clarification just do a search and no one in many years has been "STUCK"
Thank you.
Roman,

When I used the word STUCK , I meant about the TV and in no way was I referring to the forum sponsors. As a matter of fact, I am ordering mine from a forum sponsor. But just imagine how much agony one would undergo if they end up with a buzz or dead pixel.

I just feel scared that the panel I would be getting will be one of those. I would like to be thrilled that I am getting a new plasma but dont like to be scared.

As a well reputed elite dealer,can you please tell me what kind of assistance you would provide if one of your customers calls you saying that the panel you bought is buzzing or has dead pixels/blotching

can you please tell me what kind of assistance you would provide if one of your customers calls you saying that the panel you bought is buzzing or has dead pixels/blotching

:) Well the process is here and it will vary from dealer to dealer.
1. If its DOA and its within 14 days its a swap out. (Pioneer would come out but most of the time they can diagnose over the phone)
2. If its any of the above issues a local tech would come out onsite. Then they would determine if its normal or not. If they say yes then its on you and your dealer to talk to Pioneer and figure out a solution. Have had good results with this.
3. If all else fails you can return and pay for shipping/restocking if applicable. This again is case by case and most of the time still makes sense because of the savings. Hope this helps.

:) Well the process is here and it will vary from dealer to dealer.
1. If its DOA and its within 14 days its a swap out. (Pioneer would come out but most of the time they can diagnose over the phone)
2. If its any of the above issues a local tech would come out onsite. Then they would determine if its normal or not. If they say yes then its on you and your dealer to talk to Pioneer and figure out a solution. Have had good results with this.
3. If all else fails you can return and pay for shipping/restocking if applicable. This again is case by case and most of the time still makes sense because of the savings. Hope this helps.
Thanks very much for your prompt answer. You are the only dealer who has given such straight forward answers....Of course no offence meant to others but you defnitely deserve some good words.

Thanks very much for your prompt answer. You are the only dealer who has given such straight forward answers....Of course no offence meant to others but you definitely deserve some good words.

Thank you. Its pretty straight forward and nothing to hide :)

:) Well the process is here and it will vary from dealer to dealer.
1. If its DOA and its within 14 days its a swap out. (Pioneer would come out but most of the time they can diagnose over the phone)
2. If its any of the above issues a local tech would come out onsite. Then they would determine if its normal or not. If they say yes then its on you and your dealer to talk to Pioneer and figure out a solution. Have had good results with this.
3. If all else fails you can return and pay for shipping/restocking if applicable. This again is case by case and most of the time still makes sense because of the savings. Hope this helps.

Man, I have to say that's a deal-killer for me. Reading Step 2, it's clear that I would have NO advocate and NO one who shares my interest if I have a problem with the set. Virtually everyone else's interest is in that one tech saying "There's no problem...I think it's normal...end of story." And with a product where you yourself said there's only a 50-50 chance of getting a non-buzzer....