I've posted this question in another threads - but it hasn't gotten any bites. I think there was a rumor a while ago that the Signature series would not be as glossy. Did I dream that? Anybody know?

Also, do we have a final list of inputs on the Signature series yet?

Thanks, Russ.

Heck yes you need to post pictues.:)

LOL, I will, be patient please. My OPPO 983 came in today and well............ I am sure you know the rest of this sentence :)

John

I've posted this question in another threads - but it hasn't gotten any bites. I think there was a rumor a while ago that the Signature series would not be as glossy. Did I dream that? Anybody know?

Also, do we have a final list of inputs on the Signature series yet?

Thanks, Russ.

I saw that rumor as well. No idea whether it had any basis, but I'd be curious too. I was worried about panel reflections in going from my SXRD to a plasma, but it turns out the only (occasionally) distracting/annoying reflections are from the glossy acrylic frame. :( Looks nice in the showroom, but not ideal for the home theater.

russ,

Any price drops coming from Pioneer like the other manufacturers?

First they need to try to keep up with the demand before they do that. Especially on the 60's

So the 9g's CAN'T pass 5.1 from HDMI to Optical?

I was operating under the impression that the 9g's can pass non HDCP signals as DD. Shouldn't any recorded broadcast signal be able to be passed this way?

Just found this link

http://gizmodo.com/5025045/wait-to-buy-hdtvs-about-to-get-even-cheaper

It's also an industry standard. :(

Are you saying this is universally true? Or only applies to signals that carry the HDCP thing.

Do broadcast OTA recordings have this restriction?

Tonight I finally got to audition the 111 for the first time, and was lucky in that the set was located in a seperate light controlled HT room. Being able to see this set under conditions that would be simular to my HT room made all the difference in the world :eek: Now I can truly see why everyones so excited about the 9gs :D:D I can only hope the 5020 would have very simular results as that would be the set in my price range.

One question however, with the light off I noticed that the black bars top & bottom (while quite dark indeed) seem to have a little 'light bleed' along the very top edge of the upper bar and bottom edge of the lower bar. It was a faded appearance simular to a computer lcd display. Is this something anyone else has noticed :confused:

I have my connections as follows;

Directv>Denon 3808>Pioneer6020

How do I get the best picture/

Within the Denon 3808 HDMI setup do I select "Off" under I/P scaler?

If I do not set it to "off", do I select A to H and H to H? If so, what do I also select for resolution, progressive mode, & aspect?

Thanks.

So the 9g's CAN'T pass 5.1 from HDMI to Optical?

I was operating under the impression that the 9g's can pass non HDCP signals as DD. Shouldn't any recorded broadcast signal be able to be passed this way?

Are you saying this is universally true? Or only applies to signals that carry the HDCP thing.

Do broadcast OTA recordings have this restriction?

My understanding is that only signals that carry the copy protection flag are down-mixed. I don't believe that OTA has this restriction.

One question however, with the light off I noticed that the black bars top & bottom (while quite dark indeed) seem to have a little 'light bleed' along the very top edge of the upper bar and bottom edge of the lower bar. It was a faded appearance simular to a computer lcd display. Is this something anyone else has noticed :confused:

No, not all all. In nighttime viewing, the black bars are completely invisible.

I've posted this question in another threads - but it hasn't gotten any bites. I think there was a rumor a while ago that the Signature series would not be as glossy. Did I dream that? Anybody know?

Also, do we have a final list of inputs on the Signature series yet?

Thanks, Russ.


Its crazy we dont know the answer to this yet. I have basically decided on the 141, but do want it in piano black because it will match my speakers and room accents perfectly.

russ,

Any price drops coming from Pioneer like the other manufacturers?

Not that I'm aware of at this point.

My understanding is that only signals that carry the copy protection flag are down-mixed. I don't believe that OTA has this restriction.

TY. But just to be clear. I'm talking about recorded OTA signals from a Tivo HD or Sony DHG passed to the 9g as HDMI and passed as DD to my AVR as optical 5.1 correct. I think a broadcast signal CAN have HDCP, but most don't, is that right?

I want this feature badly as my three Sony DHG's best possible audio is DD and that would free up HDMI ports on my AVR that handle the newer codecs.

I've posted this question in another threads - but it hasn't gotten any bites. I think there was a rumor a while ago that the Signature series would not be as glossy. Did I dream that? Anybody know?

Also, do we have a final list of inputs on the Signature series yet?

Thanks, Russ.

Trying to get spec sheets, but if I remember correctly, it would be the same as the regular Elite.

Are you saying this is universally true? Or only applies to signals that carry the HDCP thing.

Do broadcast OTA recordings have this restriction?My impression is that no manufacturer is currently doing 5.1, or greater surround sound from a source using a HDMI connection. That's been the case for every HDMI model that I've taken the time to read about -- Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, HP, Mitsubishi, and Pioneer during recent model years.

Some models will convert surround sound from a HDMI source into a digital stereo signal. Others don't output a signal at all. My impression is that no display manufacturer is currently doing 5.1, or greater surround sound from a source using a HDMI connection. That's been the case for every HDMI model that I've taken the time to read about -- Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, HP, Mitsubishi, and Pioneer during recent model years.

It's been my experience that it doesn't matter what you connect to a display's HDMI port, the display manufacturers treat it all as if HDCP is in force.

Some models will convert surround sound from a HDMI source into a digital stereo signal. Others don't output a signal at all.

If you want surround sound then it seems that you have to take audio to a A/V receiver using HDMI or a digital audio cable.

I saw that rumor as well. No idea whether it had any basis, but I'd be curious too. I was worried about panel reflections in going from my SXRD to a plasma, but it turns out the only (occasionally) distracting/annoying reflections are from the glossy acrylic frame. :( Looks nice in the showroom, but not ideal for the home theater.


The screen filters are the same for Elite and Signature Series. For regular Pioneer line, the filter is (IMO) sliiiiiiiiightly more glossy. Not a deal breaker even for me.

wow amazon.com is awesome.. great delivery and with there 30 day best price guarantee the 5020 has already gone down 180 dollars from last week .. so im making money every day of this transaction..

My impression is that no manufacturer is currently doing 5.1, or greater surround sound from a source using a HDMI connection. That's been the case for every HDMI model that I've taken the time to read about -- Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, HP, Mitsubishi, and Pioneer during recent model years.

Some models will convert surround sound from a HDMI source into a digital stereo signal. Others don't output a signal at all. My impression is that no display manufacturer is currently doing 5.1, or greater surround sound from a source using a HDMI connection. That's been the case for every HDMI model that I've taken the time to read about -- Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, HP, Mitsubishi, and Pioneer during recent model years.

It's been my experience that it doesn't matter what you connect to a display's HDMI port, the display manufacturers treat it all as if HDCP is in force.

Some models will convert surround sound from a HDMI source into a digital stereo signal. Others don't output a signal at all.

If you want surround sound then it seems that you have to take audio to a A/V receiver using HDMI or a digital audio cable.

I'm more confused than ever, the manual clearly states it will pass DD for non HDCP sources.

Can an owner verify this one way or the other....please.

TIA

I'm more confused than ever, the manual clearly states it will pass DD for non HDCP sources.

Can an owner verify this one way or the other....please.

TIAFor simplicity, the optical out will NOT pass 5.1 audio coming from a HDMI input. It will pass 5.1 audio from the ATSC tuner.

For simplicity, the optical out will NOT pass 5.1 audio coming from a HDMI input. It will pass 5.1 audio from the ATSC tuner.

D-Nice, thank you. I swear I'll leave this alone if you answer this.

Am I misreading the manual or is the manual incorrect as to what the 9g's can do?
Do the networks or local broadcasters add the HDCP flag to their broadcasts? I'm having a hard time understanding why it won't pass DD from an external ATSC tuner input as HDMI, especially as the OM states it will. There has to be a 9g owner out there with a Sony DHG, please chime in.....or, lol. Can I send you one of my DHG's D-Nice, maybe I'll take one over to my dealer and see.

TIA

I have a question, with the ethernet port, is that only to stream media from your pc to the TV? or is it like the samsungs that can get stock tickers and weather reports...

Do the networks or local broadcasters add the HDCP flag to their broadcasts?They can.

I'm having a hard time understanding why it won't pass DD from an external ATSC tuner input as HDMI, especially as the OM states it will.Re-read what I said :) If you are connecting your external ATSC tuner to the Kuro thru the HDMI port, you will NOT get 5.1 surround out. The optical out is only for the Kuro's OWN ATSC tuner, HMG, etc.

I have a question, with the ethernet port, is that only to stream media from your pc to the TV?Yes

or is it like the samsungs that can get stock tickers and weather reports...No

booooooooooooooooooooo, oh well, the tv is still sick, i love the picture. when can we expect the full instructions of SM tweaking?

ok guys asked this question yesterday but didnt get a answer.. when playing blue rays on my dvd player... on my pioneer 5020 it says im receiving 1080p 32 bit is this the same thing as 1080p 24 or is this a higher bit how do i know im receving 1080p 24 or 60

i have been asking the same question myself and got no answer. So if someone could answer that it would be awesome.

ok guys asked this question yesterday but didnt get a answer.. when playing blue rays on my dvd player... on my pioneer 5020 it says im receiving 1080p 32 bit is this the same thing as 1080p 24 or is this a higher bit how do i know im receving 1080p 24 or 6032bit means it is connected to a HDMI 1.3 device. Nothing more.

To verify what input signal you are receiving on the panel, you will need to switch the HDMI Signal Type to PC. Then, press the display button and it should tell you the resolution and frequency.

D-Nice, thank you. I swear I'll leave this alone if you answer this.

Am I misreading the manual or is the manual incorrect as to what the 9g's can do?
Do the networks or local broadcasters add the HDCP flag to their broadcasts? I'm having a hard time understanding why it won't pass DD from an external ATSC tuner input as HDMI, especially as the OM states it will. There has to be a 9g owner out there with a Sony DHG, please chime in.....or, lol. Can I send you one of my DHG's D-Nice, maybe I'll take one over to my dealer and see.

TIA

As to the "why" you have to understand the relationship between HDMI and DRM/piracy protection. Consumer views HDMI as a better connection, presumably for higher quality but any benefit there is almost incidental, despite being the lead point in marketing.

HDMI/hdcp is to protect the content owners. The manufacturers therefore agree and enforce via license a downgrading of signals going from HDMI to older legacy connections. The "why" is so that hdmi's security features cannot be completely bypassed by simply going to a different connection and copying at will with perfect digital output. This is why they won't pass it.

If your reciever is not going to process a high def audio codec such as from blu-ray, hd dvd then the answer is to either take the hdmi straight to your A/V receiver or use hdmi for video to the Kuro and optical/coax for audio from your devices to the reciever.

As to the "why" you have to understand the relationship between HDMI and DRM/piracy protection. Consumer views HDMI as a better connection, presumably for higher quality but any benefit there is almost incidental, despite being the lead point in marketing.

HDMI/hdcp is to protect the content owners. The manufacturers therefore agree and enforce via license a downgrading of signals going from HDMI to older legacy connections. The "why" is so that hdmi's security features cannot be completely bypassed by simply going to a different connection and copying at will with perfect digital output. This is why they won't pass it.

If your reciever is not going to process a high def audio codec such as from blu-ray, hd dvd then the answer is to either take the hdmi straight to your A/V receiver or use hdmi for video to the Kuro and optical/coax for audio from your devices to the reciever.

I thank you for your help, but I completely understand my work arounds. My problem is the number of available optical inputs on my avr, while my 4 HDMI inputs on the set remain almost unused. The point is I could use the HDMI inputs on the TV for my Sony DHG's(3) with only one optical output to the AVR. I completely understand that DVD, BR and other copyrighted material would not pass DD on the optical output. But the manual states it CAN pass DD from non flagged material. To the best of my knowledge, all the recorded stuff on my hard drives , don't carry the flag.

My question still stands as to the OM, Am I missing something or is the manual incorrect?

Thanks for your help, and sorry to belabour this minor point to many...

booooooooooooooooooooo, oh well, the tv is still sick, i love the picture. when can we expect the full instructions of SM tweaking?

You shouldn't EXPECT anything, just be happy when they come. D-Nice is doing this for the benefit of all of us on his timetable not one set by the expectations of others.

They can.

Re-read what I said :) If you are connecting your external ATSC tuner to the Kuro thru the HDMI port, you will NOT get 5.1 surround out. The optical out is only for the Kuro's OWN ATSC tuner, HMG, etc.

D-Nice, I know I promised, but.

I read what you said and understand it, but it is in conflict with what the OM is saying? Therin lies my confusion. I should know to trust you over the OM....lol.

Thanks, for all you do. I know your busy and this is a VERY minor issue to many.

D-Nice, I know I promised, but.

I read what you said and understand it, but it is in conflict with what the OM is saying? Therin lies my confusion. I should know to trust you over the OM....lol.

Thanks, for all you do. I know your busy and this is a VERY minor issue to many.What page of the owner's manual says it will pass 5.1 audio from an external ATSC receiver thru HDMI?

What page of the owner's manual says it will pass 5.1 audio from an external ATSC receiver thru HDMI?

I was online last night and went thru it.....I'm there now downloading, I'll post it when I find it again. Thanks for your help

Ok, so how do I switch the input signal to PC? i have tried but couldnt figure it out. second, what is the difference if we leave it on this setting? does it change picture attributes?

Ok, so how do I switch the input signal to PC? i have tried but couldnt figure it out. second, what is the difference if we leave it on this setting? does it change picture attributes?Read your manual :) It's on page 74 or 75.

What page of the owner's manual says it will pass 5.1 audio from an external ATSC receiver thru HDMI?


At the top of page 76 as a note to section 5.2.3 it says that signals input as HDMI are not output at the optical out if they are "copy Guarded"

More to the point though, on page 111, section 5.11 Add Other Audio Equpt.
At the bottom of this page which shows DD output over optical and uses the same language from above regarding "copy Guarded" not being output.

Maybe I'm just missing something, but it looks to confirm DD will be output if not flagged.

To clarify, you are right, it doesn't say that exact thing anywhere. But it doesn't say it doesn't either, very vague on this issue. Like I said, I trust you, if you've tried it and say it won't do it, I believe you. Manuals are often wrong, or vague enough to leave a reasonable person to question them though.

At the top of page 76 as a note to section 5.2.3 it says that signals input as HDMI are not output at the optical out if they are "copy Guarded"

More to the point though, on page 111, section 5.11 Add Other Audio Equpt.
At the bottom of this page which shows DD output over optical and uses the same language from above regarding "copy Guarded" not being output.

Maybe I'm just missing something, but it looks to confirm DD will be output if not flagged.

To clarify, you are right, it doesn't say that exact thing anywhere. But it doesn't say it doesn't either, very vague on this issue. Like I said, I trust you, if you've tried it and say it won't do it, I believe you. Manuals are often wrong, or vague enough to leave a reasonable person to question them though.
Here is the key point that I think you are missing. EVERYTHING that comes into the panel thru HDMI is copy guarded. HDCP is a beeatch and is fully enforced thru the HDMI port.

and for it to do 1080p 24 does the blueray disc have to say it because i have 3 blueray movies and they all say 1080p but it doesnt say if its 24 or 60 or what not

to further his question, I read pages 74 and 75 and the manual states that PC mode accepts signals high as 1280,1024 and not 1080p.. so if i switch it pc mode would the image even show since it says it is not supported?

Here is the key point that I think you are missing. EVERYTHING that comes into the panel thru HDMI is copy guarded. HDCP is a beeatch and is fully enforced thru the HDMI port.


WOW...Thats oppressive! So the TV itself adds the flag to something I've already recorded without the flag. Thats ridiculus!

This copy management stuff is getting out of hand. These are recorded broadcasts from our airwaves, thats not fair use at all. Makes you wonder just how useless BR recorders will be when we finally get them.......

Thanks for your help here and elsewhere D-Nice

They can.

Re-read what I said :) If you are connecting your external ATSC tuner to the Kuro thru the HDMI port, you will NOT get 5.1 surround out. The optical out is only for the Kuro's OWN ATSC tuner, HMG, etc.AND, it's the same for ALL manufacturers that I've read about up to September 2007. I've pretty much only read about Pioneer since then. ;)

WOW...Thats oppressive! So the TV itself adds the flag to something I've already recorded without the flag. Thats ridiculus!No. The HDCP rules and regulations adds the copy guard.

to further his question, I read pages 74 and 75 and the manual states that PC mode accepts signals high as 1280,1024 and not 1080p.. so if i switch it pc mode would the image even show since it says it is not supported?You go into PC mode just to check Display information for resolution and frame rate, then you return to your original mode. Once should be enough to satisfy you that your DVD player is outputting 1080p @ 24fps.

No. The HDCP rules and regulations adds the copy guard.


I understand, not just Pioneer but seemingly universal to any manufacturer and blame laid at the content providers feet with their HDCP.
I just don't understand how fair use can preclude stripping off DD from the HDMI input, what good would it be to someone to record a DD soundtrck if they can't record the Video signal. They would still seem to be protected. While allowing us to get DD from the HDMI input for audio only.

Cant AVR's do this.....I'm gonna go play with my rack for a while, see if my avr can strip the audio from an HDMI input and output it as optical DD out. Now I'm just Pi$$ed.


Got me thinking, if this is the case. Then moving forward, when are the avr manufacturers gonna start including an adequate number of HDMI inputs? Stop giving me ten S and composite video inputs and provide something I can use going forward. 6 won't even cut it very shortly.

I just don't understand how fair use can preclude stripping off DD from the HDMI inputThe fair use established by the VHS cases is almost dead. The manufacturers don't seem to have put up a fight this time. :rolleyes:

Here is the key point that I think you are missing. EVERYTHING that comes into the panel thru HDMI is copy guarded. HDCP is a beeatch and is fully enforced thru the HDMI port.

"Note: When signals are input from the HDMI terminals, no signals are output from the Digital Out terminal IF they are copy guarded"....pg. 111

I know I am beginning to sound like Bill Clinton or something, argueing about what the meaning of "is" is. But I have too.

This statement implies to me that input signals without the flag are output over optical out and just below the chart says DD is output also. The key word is "if", if it's flagged, no output, if not then we get output.
I'm not stupid enough to pick a fight with you D-Nice, just very frustrated at the wording of this manual. I find this wording very misleading. It should simply state that any input on HDMI is not output over optical, if what you say is the case. I have been looking for this feature to be made available, but like you say it may never happen because of thieves and pirates.

The fair use established by the VHS cases is almost dead. The manufacturers don't seem to have put up a fight this time. :rolleyes:

I don't want to take this too far off thread, but.

Seriously, what good are BR disc recorders going to be to anyone, other than data storage, time shifting and watching somebody's baby vomit in high def what will we be able to reproduce on them?

Are the days of at least one copy allowed to the consumer dead, is this the price we pay for high quality content. I firmly believe that someone should be able to reproduce for their own use what they have already payed for! And recorded broadcast signals should be recordable over and over yet still subject to copyright and distribution laws. I mean let's try prosecuting the criminals and stop persecuting the rightful end users.

"Note: When signals are input from the HDMI terminals, no signals are output from the Digital Out terminal IF they are copy guarded"....pg. 111

I know I am beginning to sound like Bill Clinton or something, argueing about what the meaning of "is" is. But I have too.

This statement implies to me that input signals without the flag are output over optical out and just below the chart says DD is output also. The key word is "if", if it's flagged, no output, if not then we get output.
I'm not stupid enough to pick a fight with you D-Nice, just very frustrated at the wording of this manual. I find this wording very misleading. It should simply state that any input on HDMI is not output over optical, if what you say is the case. I have been looking for this feature to be made available, but like you say it may never happen because of thieves and pirates.
You're not picking a fight. All connections to the Kuro thru HDMI have HDCP copy protection. I don't even think you can connect a HDMi device to the Kuro that does nto have HDCP. So, since HDCP automatically adds copy protection, there is no way you pass 5.1 audio from the HDMI port to the optical out port.

I was skimming over these posts because I wasn't sure what they were about. I think I just got it. Does this mean you can't hook your Kuro up with HDMI and optical and get 5.1 sound? How does one get 5.1 sound through a Kuro then?

You're not picking a fight. All connections to the Kuro thru HDMI have HDCP copy protection. I don't even think you can connect a HDMi device to the Kuro that does nto have HDCP. So, since HDCP automatically adds copy protection, there is no way you pass 5.1 audio from the HDMI port to the optical out port.

Maybe Pioneer should get you to write their manuals....lol.

If all HDMI connections to the 9g have HDCP, then why word that sentence the way it's worded. What possible HDMI signal are they refering to that will pass?

Maybe a cam corder signal or something like that, something that you've created yourself. Gee thanks, I understand my fights not with Pioneer, but that sucks!

I was skimming over these posts because I wasn't sure what they were about. I think I just got it. Does this mean you can't hook your Kuro up with HDMI and optical and get 5.1 sound? How does one get 5.1 sound through a Kuro then?

Vashti, as I'm sure you're aware there are a million work arounds for this(Simplest being source HDMI to set, source optical out to AVR, or HDMI to AVR-HDMI to set) And they work for me as well, I didn't mean to imply that the sets were lacking in some manner.
In my particular instance, with the equiptment I currently have it would be a huge advantage if the set could strip DD off the HDMI inputs. But due to politics and overzealous content providers it doesn't appear possible from ANY manufacturer.

Seriously, what good are BR disc recorders going to be to anyone, other than data storage, time shifting and watching somebody's baby vomit in high def what will we be able to reproduce on them?It won't be backups, or time shifts of HD-DVD or Blu-ray material. It won't be saving or time shifting HDTV programs from your DVR.

The warning notice now includes "reproduction OR distribution" ... "without monitory gain" ... "investigated by the FBI" ... "5 years in federal prison" ... "$250,000 in fines", brought to you by Donald Duck, your congress person, your senator, and your president, all working in bipartisan harmony, inspired by one of the biggest lobbies in our fair land.

They're not going to let that VHS thing happen again. :eek:

A side note: I've never found Japanese manuals amenable to detailed linguistic analysis. ;)

Got me thinking, if this is the case. Then moving forward, when are the avr manufacturers gonna start including an adequate number of HDMI inputs? Stop giving me ten S and composite video inputs and provide something I can use going forward. 6 won't even cut it very shortly.

Denons like mine do have six HDMI inputs.

A side note: I've never found Japanese manuals amendable to detailed linguistic analysis. ;)

I find them very amendable. Amenable, on the other hand, not so much. ;)

I don't understand why people are wanting to run 5.1 signal off of the TV anyways?:confused: It doesn't even make sense....Just go optical (or digital coax) from source to AVR. Why would you go from source, to tv, and then to AVR?:rolleyes:

I find them very amendable. Amenable, on the other hand, not so much. ;)

You're cruel. :D

I find them very amendable. Amenable, on the other hand, not so much. ;)Me too! :D

Mindfulness was missing, but I'm amenable to amending the text. :p

Here is the key point that I think you are missing. EVERYTHING that comes into the panel thru HDMI is copy guarded. HDCP is a beeatch and is fully enforced thru the HDMI port.
Please do some research. I'm sure you'll find that you're wrong.

HDMI chips are required to support HDCP. But they are *NOT* required to actually activate HDCP. Of course HD DVD and Blu-Ray players are required to activate HDCP, but that's a requirement imposed on them by the HD DVD and Blu-Ray contracts/license agreements and not by the HDMI specification itself.

Many external media player boxes out there (e.g. TViX and NMT) have HDMI outputs but do usually *NOT* activate HDCP. If the Kuro would not accept HDMI input signals which do not have HDCP activated, we would not be able to connect some of those external media players to the Kuro!

BTW, all those external video processors (e.g. Lumagen and iScan) behave very differently, depending on whether an input is HDCP protected or not. For HDCP protected inputs video processors disable certain features (like output through SPDIF etc). For unprotected HDMI inputs video processors do pass AC3, DTS and 2 channel PCM through SPDIF and also output the video signal through analog connections. Since the Kuro manual implies the very same logic it seems clear to me that the Kuros do accept HDMI input which are unprotected just fine. And so they should. Everything else would be plain stupid.

I don't understand why people are wanting to run 5.1 signal off of the TV anyways?:confused: It doesn't even make sense....Just go optical (or digital coax) from source to AVR. Why would you go from source, to tv, and then to AVR?:rolleyes:

Well, I can only tell you about my situation. I was curious about this at first because my AVR only has 1 optical input. I was looking at a situation where I may have 2-4 devices using optical.

So, had I been able to plug four devices into the Kuro and then use the optical output from the Kuro to the AVR...I wouldn't need to upgrade my AVR.

I was just curious though. I'm still planing on buying a new AVR anyway.

The fair use established by the VHS cases is almost dead. The manufacturers don't seem to have put up a fight this time. :rolleyes:

Manufacturers and Studios are all comfy and together this time and the hdmi connection is the common tool. In some cases now the Manufacturer and content provider may even be one and the same. Hows that for control? :eek:

You might recall in fact there was a big stink when Sony almost released a PS3(blu-ray player) without hdmi but the powers that be got together and squashed that since hdmi connection is essential to enforcing rules like the downgrading of audio we see here thru the display. If the connection were being made thru component/optical combo for instance they could not enforce the hdcp.

Coincidentally however it appears there are no optical inputs on the Kuro....

I don't understand why people are wanting to run 5.1 signal off of the TV anyways?:confused: It doesn't even make sense....Just go optical (or digital coax) from source to AVR. Why would you go from source, to tv, and then to AVR?:rolleyes:

As I stated before, I am well aware of all the work arounds. I also can see how I am in fact the one looking for a work around for "my specific situation" as I posted not too far above your post. To clarify, I have a total of five sources that don't require the newer codecs and only four optical inputs on my AVR. On the other hand I have three HDMI inputs on the AVR available for newer codecs, two already taken and a BDP-05 on the way. Also, don't forget many components dont include both coaxial and optical, if just one of mine did, I would be all set. The HDMI to PDP to AVR optical with a DD strip of the audio would suit my situation perfectly. I can still get the job done, but not nearly as elegantly.

I didn't mean to stir up a bunch of crap and even now as I sit here I'm 90% sure that I will end up taking one of my DHG's to my dealer to confirm or quash this. I realize this is a "feature set" issue and not nearly as important as settings or PQ and I appreciate all the help I've gotten with it.

Coincidentally however it appears there are no optical inputs on the Kuro....

Do any TVs have optical inputs? That would be great, I've not sure why no one does it.

TY. But just to be clear. I'm talking about recorded OTA signals from a Tivo HD or Sony DHG passed to the 9g as HDMI and passed as DD to my AVR as optical 5.1 correct. I think a broadcast signal CAN have HDCP, but most don't, is that right?

From what we've read here so far, it sounds like you could contact Tivo and Sony to ask why they enforce HDCP on content that doesn't require it. It's getting in your way.

Here's what I think is happening:
If both the source and destination devices support HDCP, it gets enabled.
Once HDCP is enabled, the TV won't forward the (now protected) audio content.


I can understand them doing this. It might be ugly to do an HDMI re-negotiation just because you started watching a PPV recording or HBO. However, I think it's stupid that they didn't do it the other way and default to HDCP-off, for this very reason.

Here's something TV manufacturers could do to fix this: There could be a menu option to disable HDCP. Boxes like DirecTV receivers can already handle the case of older DVI-equipped TVs that don't support HDCP. Most channels will work but protected channels will display an HDCP error.
Of course this could also be implemented on the source devices.

- LoopinFool

It won't be backups, or time shifts of HD-DVD or Blu-ray material. It won't be saving or time shifting HDTV programs from your DVR.

The warning notice now includes "reproduction OR distribution" ... "without monitory gain" ... "investigated by the FBI" ... "5 years in federal prison" ... "$250,000 in fines", brought to you by Donald Duck, your congress person, your senator, and your president, all working in bipartisan harmony, inspired by one of the biggest lobbies in our fair land.

They're not going to let that VHS thing happen again. :eek:

A side note: I've never found Japanese manuals amenable to detailed linguistic analysis. ;)

They have a BR recorder available for purchase in Japan with a built in ATSC tuner so you can at least time shift HDTV broadcast TV, but other than that I can't think of a use that I would be interested in. Thats a shame.

From what we've read here so far, it sounds like you could contact Tivo and Sony to ask why they enforce HDCP on content that doesn't require it. It's getting in your way.

Here's what I think is happening:
If both the source and destination devices support HDCP, it gets enabled.
Once HDCP is enabled, the TV won't forward the (now protected) audio content.


I can understand them doing this. It might be ugly to do an HDMI re-negotiation just because you started watching a PPV recording or HBO. However, I think it's stupid that they didn't do it the other way and default to HDCP-off, for this very reason.

Here's something TV manufacturers could do to fix this: There could be a menu option to disable HDCP. Boxes like DirecTV receivers can already handle the case of older DVI-equipped TVs that don't support HDCP. Most channels will work but protected channels will display an HDCP error.
Of course this could also be implemented on the source devices.

- LoopinFool

The Sony's aren't the problem, it's trying to bend them and the PDP and the HDCP to my will thats the problem....None of the recorded sources I'm refering to are HDCP protected. All the units are HDCP compliant, but that doesn't mean the recorded signal carries the flag. They are ALL off air broadcast recordings on hard drive, no ppv, or anything that to my knowledge should contain the flag for HDCP.

Denons like mine do have six HDMI inputs.

That's what I mean, if I went all HDMI tomorrow with all the sources capable of outputting HDMI, not just the units that are capable of the higher codecs, six isn't enough now. If I could use the 4 HDMI inputs on the 9g and still get the DD sound track, all my problems would be solved.

Solved without a HDMI switcher, a optical/coaxial converter or a new AVR, that is.

They have a BR recorder available for purchase in Japan with a built in ATSC tuner so you can at least time shift HDTV broadcast TV, but other than that I can't think of a use that I would be interested in. Thats a shame.I can do that now, but no more than 20 HDTV hours worth without deleting something.

I can do that now, but no more than 20 HDTV hours worth without deleting something.

Yeah, I'm at about 160 hrs. of storage for HDTV, but no expansion capability with the Sony's. The tivo with the piggy back HD looks nice, Ihate having to pick stuff to delete. And really, we shouldn't have to with OTA stuff, we SHOULD be able to copy that. At least with the BR ATSC combo we wouldn't be deleting as much.

Yes

No

I have a question, with the ethernet port, is that only to stream media from your pc to the TV? or is it like the samsungs that can get stock tickers and weather reports...

Can you stream pretty much any video or photos from a computer to the Pioneer? Also, can you do it wirelessly?

Sorry to have wasted so much Forum energy and space.....lol.

I was just thinking in 6 or 7 months my Sony's may be bricks anyway, if so, I'll just go get the Tivo and a couple of 500Gb drives. One source with two tuners that stores all I need and only needs one HDMI input.

Thanks for your help.

Back to Kuro talk.....

I don't want to take this too far off thread, but.

Seriously, what good are BR disc recorders going to be to anyone, other than data storage, time shifting and watching somebody's baby vomit in high def what will we be able to reproduce on them?

Are the days of at least one copy allowed to the consumer dead, is this the price we pay for high quality content. I firmly believe that someone should be able to reproduce for their own use what they have already payed for! And recorded broadcast signals should be recordable over and over yet still subject to copyright and distribution laws. I mean let's try prosecuting the criminals and stop persecuting the rightful end users.

Amen, but the studios want to control all their content, down to making you pay everytime you watch/view/listen.................. if they could get away with it!!! You won't own it anymore, you will lease it. They will own it, you'll just have a leased copy via whatever medium its recorded to.

John

and for it to do 1080p 24 does the blueray disc have to say it because i have 3 blueray movies and they all say 1080p but it doesnt say if its 24 or 60 or what not

is your br player capable of and if so do you have it set to output 1080p 24hz?

I'm ready to finally get the 151. I would however, like to view it before I buy it. I know that stores use different settings, etc to display it... Since this'll be my first Pioneer, could anyone guide me as to what settings I should use to view it in the store? Just to make sure I am viewing it in all its glory...

I mostly watch HD content and will be bringing a few of my bluray discs with me.
Thanks

hey d nice or other members... Do you guys keep room sensor mostly on or off.. And do most of you use the optimum setting or the movie setting for some sort of reason i find myself using th performance setting..

ohh and guys how important is using a power conditioner if u have a av receiver, blue ray and pioneer 5020.. I have a older power bar that i was using with my older 42 inch panny should u upgrade to a better power conditoar.. does this really provide better sound and pq...

ohh and guys how important is using a power conditioner if u have a av receiver, blue ray and pioneer 5020.. I have a older power bar that i was using with my older 42 inch panny should u upgrade to a better power conditoar.. does this really provide better sound and pq...

Most importantly a good conditioner like those from Richard Gray will protect your equipment from dirty power which will shorten its life. And every city has dirty power!

Here's what I think is happening:
If both the source and destination devices support HDCP, it gets enabled.
That may be what that Sony source device is doing (although I doubt it). But that is defintely not a general rule. Most devices definitely do not behave that way. Source devices usually either enable HDCP or they don't. Depending on the type of content. And the source devices usually don't care much whether the display supports HDCP or not. E.g. DVD players, HD DVD players and Blu-Ray players usually always activate HDCP (they have to due to the DVD/Blu-Ray license agreements). But external media players which play unprotected content (e.g. something.avi) don't usually activate HDCP. Also satellite receivers here in Germany activate HDCP if the TV station requires it, but don't activate HDCP for free to air TV stations.

Once HDCP is enabled, the TV won't forward the (now protected) audio content.
Correct.

can my power bar if i have to many things hooked up to it cause inteference and stuff.. when u have a pionneer 5020 yamaha rxv1400 ps3 and hd direct tv tivo would i need soemthing bigger than monster power bar..

so guys do you usually use the remote light sensor on and off

I have just ordered a HT setup for the new home, the display being a 9th gen Kuro. Here is a link (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP-LX5090/) to a review of the display. I will actually be getting the 5090 not the 5090h, the major difference being that the 5090 lacks an integrated MPEG 4 HD tuner (something i wasn't needing).

But for all those members in Europe, I will be calibrating and giving feedback. My prior setup in the US was a Panny 50PZ700u, which I had ISF calibrated and did much critical viewing at night with BR discs via a PS3. So I will have some thoughts on comparisons. The PZ700u was the best PQ I have ever been privy to in my home.

The 5090 is similiar to the 5020 except it has some of the Elite features since there is no Elite in Europe. Exactly which ones I am not sure, but I know for one thing that the "picture enhancements" are defeatable and there is extensive calibration options in the settings menu.

I will be using DVE Blu ray basics calibration BR disc and my "eye" to calibrate the set. While not as accurate as equipment, these sets are so good out of the box, plus I feel that since my eyes will be doing the viewing that my eyes will do for the calibration.

Very excited to be joining the Kuro club, a club I have wanted to join for some time now. :)

I was keeping up with all the info on this thread, but been too busy at work lately..... I was hoping somebody here could help me out. I'm ready to buy something now.

I'm looking to buy 2 50 inch TV's..... I originally was going to buy the Panny 800U's.... but with all the flicker complaints in 24hz, I decided to wait for the reviews on the PDP-5020FD.

I have two questions...... Are there any flicker (or whatever its called) problems in the 24hz mode on the Pioneer ?? Also, I seem to recall a lot of complaints of last years model with Buzzing noise.... I HATE buzzing noises.... did that issue get worked out with this years 5020 model ??

Thanks a million to anyone who helps me out !!

I was keeping up with all the info on this thread, but been too busy at work lately..... I was hoping somebody here could help me out. I'm ready to buy something now.

I'm looking to buy 2 50 inch TV's..... I originally was going to buy the Panny 800U's.... but with all the flicker complaints in 24hz, I decided to wait for the reviews on the PDP-5020FD.

I have two questions...... Are there any flicker (or whatever its called) problems in the 24hz mode on the Pioneer ?? Also, I seem to recall a lot of complaints of last years model with Buzzing noise.... I HATE buzzing noises.... did that issue get worked out with this years 5020 model ??

Thanks a million to anyone who helps me out !!

The buzzing issue seems to be hit and miss, varying from set to set. There does seem to be a lot less reporting of buzz on the 50 in. models compared to the 60 in. models. There is a thread dedicated to 9G buzz reports:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1044254

I've only read one account of somebody experiencing flicker on a 9G, so I don't think this is a universal problem by any means. Compared to an 800U, I think you will be amazed at how much better the motion processing is on a kuro - very clean and fluid imagery.

If you haven't already read DNice's review of the 6020 on the first page (2nd post) of this thread, I would encourage you to do so. He even compares it to an 800U which you should find helpful. IMO, it is absolutely a no-brainer - the 5020 will spank the 800U in just about every respect.

ohh and guys how important is using a power conditioner if u have a av receiver, blue ray and pioneer 5020.. I have a older power bar that i was using with my older 42 inch panny should u upgrade to a better power conditoar.. does this really provide better sound and pq...

Most importantly a good conditioner like those from Richard Gray will protect your equipment from dirty power which will shorten its life. And every city has dirty power!

I recommend power protection highly, as well. There are also performance benefits to be had. I heard an audible difference in my turntable with/without a conditioner; the sound was cleaner with, grungy without. Perhaps one with voltage regulation also, to keep the 120v constant; not only can power be dirty, but voltage levels fluctuate also, and I don't think that makes AV equipment too happy either.

I have a UPS on order, to which I plan to connect my TV (when I buy it), as well as my new computer.

Just an FYI. I just got off the phone with Pioneer because I thought I was having a problem with the HDMI Control. I have the 151FD and the 94TXH Elite Receiver and when I raise or Lower the volume on the Reciever, the displayed volume on the PDP shows a different number. So, when the Reciever shows say -40, the Display shows -20 (after a delayed response). Pioneer tells me that this is normal, the two do not match! What?? What's the purpose of the volume display on the PDP then? The only thing you can use it for is to show that you are adjusting the volume and more or less guess by how much! I had hoped that if I connect the SR+ control, it would resolve this, but as someone already confirmed, and I now re-confirmed, the 151 does not have SR+ and only has SR (mono).
Crap! I don't check in on this thread in a couple of days and I miss out on some really key info. No SR+ connection on the 151FD? Are you kidding me??? That stinks...big time.

I've been strongly considering one of the new Pioneer AVRs (the SC-07) primarily BECAUSE of the supposed tightly integrated features. According to the SC-07 manual, the SR+ cable is supposed to be able to provide not only the OSD of volume, but other information as well such as MCACC setup info and surround mode info.

I did read where D-Nice said volume was available over HDMI, but what about the rest? What about OSD over HDMI while pushing 1080p/24? I simply can't believe after all the hype about Pioneer's efforts to have all their Elite products be well-integrated with each other, the consumer is left with a situation as frvega2000 has described above.

Let's see...where did I put that link to Denon's site?:mad:

FYI: CNet's review of the 5020 is up: http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pioneer-kuro-pdp-5020fd/4505-6482_7-33002523.html.

I recommend power protection highly, as well. There are also performance benefits to be had. I heard an audible difference in my turntable with/without a conditioner; the sound was cleaner with, grungy without. Perhaps one with voltage regulation also, to keep the 120v constant; not only can power be dirty, but voltage levels fluctuate also, and I don't think that makes AV equipment too happy either.

I have a UPS on order, to which I plan to connect my TV (when I buy it), as well as my new computer.

Dirty (noisy) power, spikes or brown-outs can obviously be problematic if they are common in your environment.
Small line voltage variations in reaction to loading at different times of the day are not really a problem for the switching supplies used in modern CE components.

Most quality UPS do a fair job at filtering and giving you some protection during brown-outs as well as outages.
Outage protection is most beneficial for recording devices, especially hard disk like PCs, DVRs, etc. But there is some support for using it for lamp protection for projectors displays, etc. and maybe it has similar benefit for plasma.
For outage protection for the above devices, you do not want anything that will remove power during huge transitions, but rather absorb it or switch to back up power.

For other electronics, the best protection may well be opening a circuit. After all, the ultimate protection is no connection.

My only point being you should be aware of your immediate AC environment, the equipment you are using, and what you want to achieve in order to make a wise choice. There is no reason to spend a lot of money unless your needs require it.

... the best protection may well be opening a circuit. After all, the ultimate protection is no connection.This is most easy to do after a power outage. Research at SRI (Stanford Research Institute) in collaboration with major power suppliers across the country, indicated that the greatest risk of power surges occur when the power comes back on. Of course, any time there is lightning in the area, an open circuit is a very good idea.

If an organization like Enron is in control of your areas power supply, then maybe a line conditioner/UPS to protect against brown outs is a good idea. :eek:

For almost all normal locations, "cleaning your power" can be very profitable for merchants and manufacturers, but of doubtful benefit to owners. ;)

A good surge protector (Belkin/APC ~$50) is always a good idea. :cool:

Is there a picture thread for the 9Gs? i like looking at other peoples set ups.

Is there a picture thread for the 9Gs? i like looking at other peoples set ups.

The first half of the thread is all 8g...second half seems to be mostly 9g.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=920011

This is most easy to do after a power outage.

A Panamax or Furman will certainly open the circuit when sensing an over or under voltage. (greater than 137v or less than 90v typically). This is great for the first attack! Naturally, it's wise to open the circuit (shut everything down) manually if the power is continuing to behave badly, as I believe you are suggesting.

I don't know if anyone else has posted this review of the 5020FD from CNET, but if not ...

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pioneer-kuro-pdp-5020fd/4505-6482_7-33002523.html

Has anyone noticed "inaccurate primary colors" on this set. That would certainly be totally unacceptable for me. I am sure the Elites do much better in this regard ... and could be fine tuned especially on the 141FD.

A Panamax or Furman will certainly open the circuit when sensing an over or under voltage. (greater than 137v or less than 90v typically). This is great for the first attack! Naturally, it's wise to open the circuit (shut everything down) manually if the power is continuing to behave badly, as I believe you are suggesting.After a power outage or when there is lightning in the area, it's a very good idea to disconnect all sensitive loads. An area that's subjected to brown outs needs a line conditioning UPS. A surge protector is a good idea for all sensitive load -- computers and home theater gear.

I did suggest that "cleaning" normal power might be more salesmanship than real improvement. ;)

The problem with better audio and video due to "power cleaning" is that there have never been any double blind studies that were able to show that enthusiasts are able to identify the "improvement".

I have a Panamax for power management, but I don't expect it to improve what I see or hear.

After a power outage or when there is lightning in the area, it's a very good idea to disconnect all sensitive loads. An area that's subjected to brown outs needs a line conditioning UPS. A surge protector is a good idea for all sensitive load -- computers and home theater gear.

I did suggest that "cleaning" normal power might be more salesmanship than real improvement. ;)

The problem with better audio and video due to "power cleaning" is that there have never been any double blind studies that were able to show that enthusiasts are able to identify the "improvement".

I have a Panamax for power management, but I don't expect it to improve what I see or hear.

We agree on all points! :)

We agree on all points! :)Of course. ;)

After a power outage or when there is lightning in the area, it's a very good idea to disconnect all sensitive loads. An area that's subjected to brown outs needs a line conditioning UPS. A surge protector is a good idea for all sensitive load -- computers and home theater gear.

I did suggest that "cleaning" normal power might be more salesmanship than real improvement. ;)

The problem with better audio and video due to "power cleaning" is that there have never been any double blind studies that were able to show that enthusiasts are able to identify the "improvement".

I have a Panamax for power management, but I don't expect it to improve what I see or hear.

I heard somewhere that clean power also helps prolong the life of your components, but I didn't buy into that too hard. Does anyone know if there's any truth to that?

This week I bought and received a Belkin PureAV PF30, just because I felt like having $5500 worth of electronics plugged into a $10 power strip was not worth the risk. I wanted the peace of mind that the power console brought and I'm quite satisfied with it so far (although the LED on the front is quite bright).

I heard somewhere that clean power also helps prolong the life of your components, but I didn't buy into that too hard. Does anyone know if there's any truth to that?

This week I bought and received a Belkin PureAV PF30, just because I felt like having $5500 worth of electronics plugged into a $10 power strip was not worth the risk. I wanted the peace of mind that the power console brought and I'm quite satisfied with it so far (although the LED on the front is quite bright).

Good investment in my opinion with all the thunderstorms we have around here. I also believe clean power effects sound and picture quality. I can hear noise from my overhead light dimmers when I plug my system directly into the wall....... with my Brickwall power conditioner/surge protector in place, no hum. I also just moved my 43" Pio into the bedroom after purchasing my new 5010. The 43 didn't buzz at all in the main system plugged into the Brickwall, now it's into a $10 strip......... result? a buzz audible from about 2 feet.

John

The 43 didn't buzz at all in the main system plugged into the Brickwall, now it's into a $10 strip......... result? a buzz audible from about 2 feet.

JohnNo one should ever plug anything they care about into a $10 power strip. :eek:

If you have your equipment on the same circuit with dimmers, and the dimmers are causing a problem, then line conditioning, or a change in your lighting would be called for. ;)

Our home theater, and my computer are on dedicated circuits so the one set of lights on dimmers in our dinning room don't cause a problem.

No one should ever plug anything they care about into a $10 power strip. :eek:

If you have your equipment on the same circuit with dimmers, and the dimmers are causing a problem, then line conditioning, or a change in your lighting would be called for. ;)

Our home theater, and my computer are on dedicated circuits so the one set of lights on dimmers in our dinning room don't cause a problem.

Yep, is why I am going to buy conditioning/protection for the bedroom system as well :)

John

I heard somewhere that clean power also helps prolong the life of your components, but I didn't buy into that too hard. Does anyone know if there's any truth to that?

This week I bought and received a Belkin PureAV PF30, just because I felt like having $5500 worth of electronics plugged into a $10 power strip was not worth the risk. I wanted the peace of mind that the power console brought and I'm quite satisfied with it so far (although the LED on the front is quite bright).

I have heard and read that the delicate circuits inside CE gear can be degraded over time by bad power. My own experience has shown me the value of power protection for my stuff. Living in a big city, in an older building, it's a virtual must-have.

I was interested in a UPS system for my HDVR's at one point and got scared off because someone told me most of the units available didn't put out a pure sine wave? Is that right?
Which UPS units do, and is it true you can't just use an APS or other similar computer rig from BB?

I was interested in a UPS system for my HDVR's at one point and got scared off because someone told me most of the units available didn't put out a pure sine wave? Is that right?
Which UPS units do, and is it true you can't just use an APS or other similar computer rig from BB?

The more expensive ones do..you need to check the specs. For occasional outages, I think any reputable brand (APC and TrippLIte my personal pref.) will do just fine.

The main idea of an UPS is to keep your system alive long enough to shut it down safely.

Switching supplies in most modern electronics is a nice buffer for everyday AC glitches. They are more forgiving and robust than they are given credit for...but if you live in an area subject to frequent outages and/or have very sensitive data that can not afford any interrupts, then you spend more for a true sine-wave back up.
I think a lot of the APC (and others) push for a/v back ups is marketing to a large extent. But considering their 'better' a/v units also have protection for sat/cable and phone line interfaces, it's not all hype.
Look at your equipment, your needs, and your environment.

I'm ready to finally get the 151. I would however, like to view it before I buy it. I know that stores use different settings, etc to display it... Since this'll be my first Pioneer, could anyone guide me as to what settings I should use to view it in the store? Just to make sure I am viewing it in all its glory...

I mostly watch HD content and will be bringing a few of my bluray discs with me.
Thanks


Any suggestions?

Also, I was looking at the Elites today at the local hi-end audio store and the salesman was saying that the Signature series will come already broken in and ISF calibrated. True or not?

not true.
not a 200 hour breakin using the settings and dvd/usb drive input.
well considering Pioneer does not recommend a breakin anyway.


supposedly the sig series can be calibrated remotely.......but will have to wait and see what that is and how good it may be.

still should not be a true replacement for a proper hands on isf calibration from a good isf tech with good equipment.

It used to be a thread on AVS forum dedicated to power protection. The consensus was that there is no evidence that more expensive units would improve picture and audio, but it's necessary to protect your valuable AV equipment with a good surge protector. Reasonable cost for a good one is around $50.

I've been using Power Sentry surge protector+line conditioner (~$40) with my 6020 since I've got it (http://www.costco.com/images/content/misc/PDF/992836.pdf). Today, after talks about power protection renewed here again I picked Tripplite UPS for $99 (http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productid=3696).

Personally I don't see any difference in PQ between these two units (or without them) so not sure how to justify extra $60 for UPS features.

I've got one question for our experts: UPS is rated for 500W output, while 6020 requires 524W. Would it be a problem? Thanks.

Any suggestions?

Also, I was looking at the Elites today at the local hi-end audio store and the salesman was saying that the Signature series will come already broken in and ISF calibrated. True or not?Without your room, delivering a "calibrated" display wouldn't and couldn't do justice to the display. Maybe they won't be in the standard "torch mode for show rooms" condition. That might seem like they were calibrated.

The more expensive ones do..you need to check the specs. For occasional outages, I think any reputable brand (APC and TrippLIte my personal pref.) will do just fine.

The main idea of an UPS is to keep your system alive long enough to shut it down safely.

Switching supplies in most modern electronics is a nice buffer for everyday AC glitches. They are more forgiving and robust than they are given credit for...but if you live in an area subject to frequent outages and/or have very sensitive data that can not afford any interrupts, then you spend more for a true sine-wave back up.
I think a lot of the APC (and others) push for a/v back ups is marketing to a large extent. But considering their 'better' a/v units also have protection for sat/cable and phone line interfaces, it's not all hype.
Look at your equipment, your needs, and your environment.

Thanks for the info......I was ready to buy a couple of them a few years ago and the guy scared me off them and tried to sell me something that cost almost $1,000....I'll pick up a couple of APC's(not APS) or Tripplites.....Thanks.

Any suggestions?

Also, I was looking at the Elites today at the local hi-end audio store and the salesman was saying that the Signature series will come already broken in and ISF calibrated. True or not?

Is it true that he's a good salesman, you mean? Depends on whether you belivee him or not. :rolleyes: Sounds like bull to me.

Could somebody be so nice and tell me the difference between Drive Mode 1,2 and 3?

Would be very kind! Thanks


Regards

Could somebody be so nice and tell me the difference between Drive Mode 1,2 and 3?

Would be very kind! Thanks


Regards

Drive Mode?

Good news! The stand pipes are interchangeable between the elites and non-elites. You can purchase the 'replacements' from the Pioneer parts link in my original message below. Cost after tax and shipping was just a little over $100.

My 6020 is now 4 inches lower. It looks perfect. Do not try it if you are using (or plan to use) the TV speaker.... there is clearly not enough room between TV and stand for the 6020 speaker with the short elite stand pipes. However, my receiver takes care of all sound, so this was not an issue for me.

I have been really curious about this myself. Personally I think it would work, it just sounds logical not to design the two models that differently if only from a cost perspective. Also for that price I am tempted to give it a try as well. If you give it a go please post the results. Thanks for finding the part #'s and links!

This has been asked several times, on both the 8G and 9G forums. I have not found an answer yet.

Are the elite 151FD stand legs (or what Pioneer calls 'stand pipes') interchangeable with the non-elite 6020 stand legs?

I have a wall-mount (thanks, Roman), but at the moment I can't drill in my apartment. The TV sits a little too tall to fit in my old entertainment center, so I need to lose about 4 inches of height...

The replacement stand legs are the STAND PIPE L ASS'Y listed here:
PRO-151FD (http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/model.asp?modelNum=PRO-151FD) part #AXY1222
PDP6020FD (http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/model.asp?modelNum=PDP6020FD) part #AXY1211

If any elite 151 owners need 4 inches of extra height on their panel, let me know if you're interested in a trade. Otherwise, it's off to parts & accessories I go!

Good news! The stand pipes are interchangeable between the elites and non-elites. You can purchase the 'replacements' from the Pioneer parts link in my original message below. Cost after tax and shipping was just a little over $100.

My 6020 is now 4 inches lower. It looks perfect. Do not try it if you are using (or plan to use) the TV speaker.... there is clearly not enough room between TV and stand for the 6020 speaker with the short elite stand pipes. However, my receiver takes care of all sound, so this was not an issue for me.

Two questions:

1. Where do you have your center channel speaker positioned?

2. How much space do you have between the bottom of the bezel and the surface of your entertainment center/stand?

I am thinking of doing this as well if I can fit my center channel in.

Good news! The stand pipes are interchangeable between the elites and non-elites. You can purchase the 'replacements' from the Pioneer parts link in my original message below. Cost after tax and shipping was just a little over $100.

My 6020 is now 4 inches lower. It looks perfect. Do not try it if you are using (or plan to use) the TV speaker.... there is clearly not enough room between TV and stand for the 6020 speaker with the short elite stand pipes. However, my receiver takes care of all sound, so this was not an issue for me.

That IS good news! A lot less expensive than $400-$500 for the full Elite stand.

I attended the flat panel shoot-out yesterday at Value Electronics, and figured I'd give my impressions here. I am not as technical as many on the forum, but I can describe what I saw and heard. The six sets were a Pioneer 5010, Elite 111, Panasonic 800, Samsung 650 Plasma, LG 60 plasma, and Toshiba LCD. I was sitting to the right of the wall, closest to the Toshiba, the 110, and the 650 which was over the 110.

First, from what I heard, no one seemed to think this was a Kuro commercial. Obviously, the presence of Pioneer personnel suggests a biased event to some. But I did not sense I was being pushed toward any particular set (and at 6'4, 230, I wouldn't be pushed easily); the sets spoke for themselves. No one tried to sell me anything. All sets were ISF-calibrated and fed the same signal via HDMI.

On the general loop, it was difficult to see profound differences with many scenes. During one or two scenes there was a blue line running vertically down either side of all sets except the 111. During a restaurant scene the Toshiba exhibited a yellowish tinge to skintones; the Samsung was a bit reddish. With an introductory image/slide on the test disc, some of the text was clearer and more obvious on the Toshiba; it stood out from the background more. All sets looked good with this page color-wise.

Not surprisingly, with the lights up, no set showed a black screen in the absence of a feed.

When the lights went down and we saw the test disc pluge patterns for black, the Elite 111 was the clear winner, the 5010 second. On the white pattern the Pioneers were again best. The LG was the worst, I'd say.

With Blu-ray movie material (Blu-ray remastering of The Godfather), it was the scenes with black background that established the 111's superiority in that area. With brighter scenes every set looked good, but my favorites were the Pioneers and the Samsung.

On SD the Panasonic looked the worst, unwatchable in my view. Best to me were the 111 and the Samsung. We didn't get any on-board audio, except briefly on the Panasonic. It was so-so.

On an HD feed of the Yankees–A's game, the Panasonic looked washed out. The 111's more neutral skin tones made it a slight preference over the Samsung's redder push for me. But the Samsung still looked good.

My favorite pictures were the 111, 5010, and 650. I found myself focusing on the 111 and 650, even after the official shootout was over and I could get directly in front of all the sets. I'm figuring what room rearrangements I'd need to do to accommodate either set and the extra expense. The 111 would require some real saving to buy. If I can't find a good price on it, I'd be content with the Samsung 650. I've not seen a 5020, but I should look at that too, I guess. The 9G Elite was the best, especially when the lights were down.

Drive Mode?
It's for the models sold in PAL territories.

If I remember correctly:
Drive mode 1 = 75Hz
Drive mode 2 =100Hz
Drive mode 3 = 72Hz

Drive mode 1 produces the best image with film content, but will judder with video.
Drive mode 2 is best with video content, and works fine with film, but doesn't look quite as good.
Drive mode 3 should be avoided at all costs, I'm not sure why 72Hz is selectable with PAL signals. (which are either 25/50 fps)

Drive mode has no effect on 24/60Hz signals.

If you don't want to be changing it all the time, just set it to mode 2 and forget about it.

I attended the flat panel shoot-out yesterday at Value Electronics, and figured I'd give my impressions here. I am not as technical as many on the forum, but I can describe what I saw and heard. The six sets were a Pioneer 5010, Elite 111, Panasonic 800, Samsung 650 Plasma, LG 60 plasma, and Toshiba LCD. I was sitting to the right of the wall, closest to the Toshiba, the 110, and the 650 which was over the 110.Do you mean the 111? Good post. I think the panasonic was disappointing for most people.

Good news! The stand pipes are interchangeable between the elites and non-elites. You can purchase the 'replacements' from the Pioneer parts link in my original message below. Cost after tax and shipping was just a little over $100.

My 6020 is now 4 inches lower. It looks perfect. Do not try it if you are using (or plan to use) the TV speaker.... there is clearly not enough room between TV and stand for the 6020 speaker with the short elite stand pipes. However, my receiver takes care of all sound, so this was not an issue for me.

Excellent, thanks for the follow up!

I've not seen a 5020, but I should look at that too, I guess. The 9G Elite was the best, especially when the lights were down.



Although it was interesting to here the results between the 111 & last years 5010 .... I felt it would of been equally interesting to had seen just how close the 5020 would have come to the 111. Beings most folks rated the Pios as the top two choices in the competition (and that primarily due to their increased black level performance) it would have been very interesting to see the 5020 (considering the additional black level performance over the 5010) sitting next to the 111 . Bottom line here ..... (side by side) it would have been a little easier to determine whether the additional premium for the Elite is really worth it. ;)

a couple things to consider, robert wanted to show differences in the 8g and the 9g. plus the 5020 could not be isf calibrated (easily at that time by Kevin Miller without computer/rs232/software or a factory remote) so it wasnt on as equal footing in a shootout type presentation.

With Blu-ray movie material (Blu-ray remastering of The Godfather), it was the scenes with black background that established the 111's superiority in that area. With brighter scenes every set looked good, but my favorites were the Pioneers and the Samsung.

While you had many interesting observations about the TVs, this jumped out at me. There is no Blu-Ray of The Godfather yet. In fact, for us fans, it's a huge deal that Paramount is finally releasing the re-mastered Blu-Ray set this fall. Are you saying you got an early peek?

While you had many interesting observations about the TVs, this jumped out at me. There is no Blu-Ray of The Godfather yet. In fact, for us fans, it's a huge deal that Paramount is finally releasing the re-mastered Blu-Ray set this fall. Are you saying you got an early peek?

Yep, we did. They showed us a 15-20 minute clip from the blu-ray that will be released this September. It's quite incredible.

Hey D-Nice, would you say, aside from all the black levels, that a Calibrated 5020fd will look better and outperform its older counterpart the 5010? I do understand you have to get in the SM to get the 5020 Calibrated properly, and by all means I am willing to do that, I just want to see if you feel that it is a substantial difference or not to the picture quality of the 5010. Again, aside from the black levels.

Yep, we did. They showed us a 15-20 minute clip from the blu-ray that will be released this September. It's quite incredible.

Oh....that hurts. Did it look as amazing as I'm hoping it will? The various DVD releases have all suffered from poor mastering. Bad contrast, bad blacks, excessive grain, awful sound..... When I heard that Coppolla was personally overseeing this re-master, I got visions of The Godfather series looking & sounding as great as the Scott-supervised Bladerunner remaster. (Well, the first two anyway. Nothing can help that Part III fiasco.)

Yeah, it was pretty incredible. I don't think there's a Godfather fan out there that will be disappointed. The first few minutes came straight from the master. After that, they had to move to a copy a few generations down. I didn't notice a change though. It doesn't get much better than watching that on a 111.

has anyone experimented with using the optimum mode with optimum performance on and room light sensor on.. these auto settings provide a nice clean antural crisp picture for all ur cources in the day and in the night

ok guys yesterday by accident left my house and on my 5 day pioneer 5020 i left the ps3 on luckily i have orbiter 2 on and the ps3 goes into dim mode after soemtime... the ps3 was in the icon mode where u select the video audio internet exct... did i damage the screen i ran video test pattern afterwards from the tv the wipe mode for 2 hours...

If you don't see image retention, then it's fine. If you do see a bit of IR, then it will likely go away with bright full screen content. Watch a few Pixar movies. :)

good i was afraid that i could of caused permanent damage.. when i left the ps3 on for 7 hours good thing the ps3 was in screen saver mode which dims the picture out to a minimum is runnign the wipe a good idea

It's for the models sold in PAL territories.

If I remember correctly:
Drive mode 1 = 75Hz
Drive mode 2 =100Hz
Drive mode 3 = 72Hz

Drive mode 1 produces the best image with film content, but will judder with video.
Drive mode 2 is best with video content, and works fine with film, but doesn't look quite as good.
Drive mode 3 should be avoided at all costs, I'm not sure why 72Hz is selectable with PAL signals. (which are either 25/50 fps)

Drive mode has no effect on 24/60Hz signals.

If you don't want to be changing it all the time, just set it to mode 2 and forget about it.


Thank you! :)


Regards

Two questions:

1. Where do you have your center channel speaker positioned?

2. How much space do you have between the bottom of the bezel and the surface of your entertainment center/stand?

I am thinking of doing this as well if I can fit my center channel in.

My center channel sits in my entertainment center, below both my TV+stand.

After the stand modification, there is exactly 3 inches between the bottom of the 6020 bezel and the top surface of my entertainment center. Most center channels would be way too tall to reasonably sit there.

ok guys yesterday by accident left my house and on my 5 day pioneer 5020 i left the ps3 on luckily i have orbiter 2 on and the ps3 goes into dim mode after soemtime... the ps3 was in the icon mode where u select the video audio internet exct... did i damage the screen i ran video test pattern afterwards from the tv the wipe mode for 2 hours...

No chance of damage. If you do this again ever, you can also just watch some regular, full screen content for a bit. Much more interesting.

Eddy you probably should setup the Folding@Home screensaver that comes with the PS3. At first it shows a rotating Earth, but after a short while it goes into a true screensaver mode where it just moves some text around the screen. Folding@Home is great too since it will help disease research.

Do you mean the 111? Good post. I think the panasonic was disappointing for most people.

Yes, the 9G Elite 111. This way, there was a sense of the progress from 8G to 9G sets.

Yeah, it was pretty incredible. I don't think there's a Godfather fan out there that will be disappointed. The first few minutes came straight from the master. After that, they had to move to a copy a few generations down. I didn't notice a change though. It doesn't get much better than watching that on a 111.

I thought it looked amazing too, and I'm not a Godfather fan. So you know it was an excellent demonstration.

I did notice some things in the 141 manual that may be of interest to some.

The first is the ability for the display to send an e-mail to you when there is an error. It can also send you an e-mail when a predetermined number of operational hours have been reached. You can program that to be 500 hours or whatever and it will send the message so you could essentially log the number of hours on the display based on this.

The other item of interest is the IR repeater. I have a question about this feature. The manual mentions using this with other Pioneer components, but does anyone know if this is a basic IR repeater that will pass any IR commands or only Pioneer commands?

If it will pass all IR commands, it would be great to link it to an IR repeater system to connect to equipment in a rack in a separate equipment room without the need for a $200 IR repeater eye. Please let me know if this built in feature will meet this need.

I also thought the ability to use the web server to do all the programming is awesome because using a mouse is much easier than fumbling through menus with a remote.

Is there a similar link to the 151 manual? I haven't seen it. If so , could some post the link or the pdf of the 151 manual. If it is among the first few posts I missed it. I only saw data sheets.

fumbling through menus with a remote.

Now, where have I seen this before... ;)

hey guys is the wipe method video test pattern that comes with the 5020 a good thing too run for image rentention or bur in

thats what it is for.....

I did notice some things in the 141 manual that may be of interest to some.

The first is the ability for the display to send an e-mail to you when there is an error. It can also send you an e-mail when a predetermined number of operational hours have been reached. You can program that to be 500 hours or whatever and it will send the message so you could essentially log the number of hours on the display based on this.

The other item of interest is the IR repeater. I have a question about this feature. The manual mentions using this with other Pioneer components, but does anyone know if this is a basic IR repeater that will pass any IR commands or only Pioneer commands?

If it will pass all IR commands, it would be great to link it to an IR repeater system to connect to equipment in a rack in a separate equipment room without the need for a $200 IR repeater eye. Please let me know if this built in feature will meet this need.

I also thought the ability to use the web server to do all the programming is awesome because using a mouse is much easier than fumbling through menus with a remote.

Is there a similar link to the 151 manual? I haven't seen it. If so , could some post the link or the pdf of the 151 manual. If it is among the first few posts I missed it. I only saw data sheets.

It looks to me like a regular IR repeater. Manufacturers always like to say that your should use these features with their own products. All the manuals are available for download on Pioneer's website. For the 151, go here:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/PlasmaTVs+Monitors/EliteTVs/ci.New+PRO-151FD.Kuro?tab=D

Thanks for the info......I was ready to buy a couple of them a few years ago and the guy scared me off them and tried to sell me something that cost almost $1,000....I'll pick up a couple of APC's(not APS) or Tripplites.....Thanks.

A lot of cheap UPS units actually produce "square wave" power -- the voltage flips back and forth really fast instead of cycling more gradually from +60V to -60V.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply (this is near the bottom of the page):

Nonstandard Sinewave Output

The Standby, Line-Interactive, and Online UPS products all use an electronic inverter to generate alternating current from direct current. The lowest-cost UPS models tend to produce a very rough square wave, mid-range models a stepped-sine wave, and more expensive modles true sine wave output.

Equipment may appear to operate normally on the nonstandard waveforms, but over time may be damaged due to the harmonics of non-sinewave power, which the protected device was not designed to tolerate. These harmonics may cause excessive heating of transformers, AC motor windings and power supply circuitry.

If you don't actually need battery backup, you might look into just a "conditioner" that is not a UPS. It is nice for a TiVo or DVR cable box, since sometimes they don't behave well if they lose power. Although frankly, if you don't have bad power, a normal surge protector will work just fine.

If you frequently get brownouts/blackouts or surges, or you live in a home with older wiring (if the lights noticeably dim/brighten whenever you turn on/off something large, that's a bad sign), I would be more inclined to go for a conditioner/UPS.

A lot of cheap UPS units actually produce "square wave" power -- the voltage flips back and forth really fast instead of cycling more gradually from +60V to -60V.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply (this is near the bottom of the page):



If you don't actually need battery backup, you might look into just a "conditioner" that is not a UPS. It is nice for a TiVo or DVR cable box, since sometimes they don't behave well if they lose power. Although frankly, if you don't have bad power, a normal surge protector will work just fine.

If you frequently get brownouts/blackouts or surges, or you live in a home with older wiring (if the lights noticeably dim/brighten whenever you turn on/off something large, that's a bad sign), I would be more inclined to go for a conditioner/UPS.

Absolutely. I live in such a building and have almost everything that is sensitive plugged into a Tripplite. The TV too, both current and future.

I was in J&R Music World earlier and got my first look at a 5020, with an HD feed of a Yankees pre-game show. I noted, during an interview with David Ortiz (they play the Red Sox today) the white background of the dug out wasn't, nor the white top of the interviewer; both were a light gray, and the picture had an overall gray cast to it. I'm sure this is an out-of-the-box picture, but does this improve with calibration? None of the LCDs had this issue, but then they were brighter overall.

Back to this question: can these out-of-box whites be fixed without the service menu?

I posted this question in the owners thread and haven't received a response yet. Is anyone able to get thumbnails to display in the Home Media Gallery? Mine just shows little cameras in place of the thumbnails. It displays pictures fine but does not show the thumbnails. Anyone?

Back to this question: can these out-of-box whites be fixed without the service menu?

The energy saver modes can do that. They seem to use a more aggressive APL setting, which means that the peak brightness is lowered where there's a lot of bright stuff on screen.

A lot of cheap UPS units actually produce "square wave" power -- the voltage flips back and forth really fast instead of cycling more gradually from +60V to -60V.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply (this is near the bottom of the page):



If you don't actually need battery backup, you might look into just a "conditioner" that is not a UPS. It is nice for a TiVo or DVR cable box, since sometimes they don't behave well if they lose power. Although frankly, if you don't have bad power, a normal surge protector will work just fine.

If you frequently get brownouts/blackouts or surges, or you live in a home with older wiring (if the lights noticeably dim/brighten whenever you turn on/off something large, that's a bad sign), I would be more inclined to go for a conditioner/UPS.

Thats my problem....I specifically want the UPS for my three Sony DHG-HDD's, these HDVR's are very tempermental and every time they go through a power down cycle I gotta pray the entire TVGOS isn't lost or scrambled beyond recognition. Like so many things in life, they give me the most frustration, but I love them like no other component in my rack.

The energy saver modes can do that. They seem to use a more aggressive APL setting, which means that the peak brightness is lowered where there's a lot of bright stuff on screen.

So I should be able to turn Energy Saver down/off, or perhaps turn brightness down instead, and that'll do the trick?

Thats my problem....I specifically want the UPS for my three Sony DHG-HDD's, these HDVR's are very tempermental and every time they go through a power down cycle I gotta pray the entire TVGOS isn't lost or scrambled beyond recognition. Like so many things in life, they give me the most frustration, but I love them like no other component in my rack.

I use an APS Smart-UPS battery back-up for my TiVo, NAS, and network infrastructure upstairs. It works extremely well. We have fairly stable power here, but during the occasional winter wind storm or summer A/C overload, the power might flicker a bit or go out for an hour or so. It's those quick on/offs that happen during flickers, or when the power's coming back, that really wreak havoc on eqiupment like the TiVo and NAS. Probably the same with the Sony DVRs. The APS goes straight to battery power without skipping a beat. If you want to take a look, I got mine at Newegg:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842101016

(I also bought a secondary battery for it to extend its offline time.)

A lot of cheap UPS units actually produce "square wave" power -- the voltage flips back and forth really fast instead of cycling more gradually from +60V to -60V.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply (this is near the bottom of the page):



If you don't actually need battery backup, you might look into just a "conditioner" that is not a UPS. It is nice for a TiVo or DVR cable box, since sometimes they don't behave well if they lose power. Although frankly, if you don't have bad power, a normal surge protector will work just fine.

If you frequently get brownouts/blackouts or surges, or you live in a home with older wiring (if the lights noticeably dim/brighten whenever you turn on/off something large, that's a bad sign), I would be more inclined to go for a conditioner/UPS.


What if one has good power but intermittent thunderstorm/lightening activities? Which one would be the recommended conditioner? Also should one get dedicated conditioner for TV or can it be one big for whole of home theater? Reason for asking is if there are any concerns of ground current affecting the PQ during regular watching.

What if one has good power but intermittent thunderstorm/lightening activities? Which one would be the recommended conditioner?

Realistically, the only safe thing to do is to unplug electronics during a lightning storm. No consumer-level gear can protect against a direct/very close lightning strike on your power or cable lines.

I don't know much about any of these devices designed specifically for HT use. I've used APC UPS/conditioner units for computers in the past (similar to the one linked above), and they have a pretty solid reputation. But I haven't had to deal with anything like that in a few years, so I'm out of date with specific models.

Also should one get dedicated conditioner for TV or can it be one big for whole of home theater? Reason for asking is if there are any concerns of ground current affecting the PQ during regular watching.

In theory, the closer you are to the maximum load of a conditioner, the less 'clean' the output is likely to be. But I doubt it would really make any noticeable difference. Most new TVs (unless they are very cheap) probably have a decent power supply with a voltage rectifier circuit, so as long as the conditioner keeps it close to 120VAC it should pick up the slack. Plus, unless you have a HUGE speaker setup or something, the TV is likely to be most of the load anyway.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ground current affecting the PQ". The point of a conditioner is to isolate the output(s) from whatever the input/ground is doing.

Hi guys,

I've just posted (on the 9G Elite thread) an easy test which can be carried out with a PS3 or HTPC to see the 'dirty screen door' effect that some people have reported on their 9G sets. It's one way to see the effect in action or just to confirm whether it still affects your set following run-in.

Here the post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14361976#post14361976

I'd be interested to hear what you see if you can carry out the test.

Most new TVs (unless they are very cheap) probably have a decent power supply with a voltage rectifier circuit, so as long as the conditioner keeps it close to 120VAC it should pick up the slack. Plus, unless you have a HUGE speaker setup or something, the TV is likely to be most of the load anyway.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ground current affecting the PQ". The point of a conditioner is to isolate the output(s) from whatever the input/ground is doing.


Actually, modern supplies are quite tolerant of different line conditions (within reason of course). They have to be considering the wide variation in AC power everywhere. Not to say surge and noise suppression is unwise, or even a good UPS. Especially if you live where brownouts or outages are common-place.

Generally, cable or satellite lines are a common cause of ground problems. There are isolators, etc. for such conditions.

I guess if your system suffers from AC problems in the form of noise, etc. it is possible it will look and sound better with some conditioning. But having it look and sound better than how it was designed to look and sound is a reach IMO.

i know i already pm'd you about it but for the benefit of other posters,

while i dont have the pioneer yet the results are the same in the digital optical toslink cable

when you have your directv or whatever source and you run the otical directly to the avr it will sound proper which is 5.1 3/2 setup

but if you run your optical out from tv after signal came from source the sound will be dowmixed or just less er sound

source (directv etc) optical out > avr = best

source optical out > tv out optical > avr = not a good ideal

Now thats one thing i wanted to cleaify another thing is in

regards to home media gallery it might be limited from tv out via optical in less then 5.1 for music or whatever is output via hmg can someone clearify this?

i hope this makes sense.

I had posted a similar question in the Elite forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14279744#post14279744). I didn't get any responses, but it bet your assumption is the reason why I'm not getting 5.1.

Basically, I've tried to connect my DirecTv DVR to my 111 via HDMI and ouput a 5.1 signal to my reciever via back optical jack (so I can also use the home media gallery for playing music), but the only thing the reciever sees is Dolby Surround. Works fine if i connect optical out from the DVR directly, but not though the 111 despite having a menu feature that allows you to set "Dolby Digital" out. Very disappointing. :(

jrcorwin if you watch over the air HD shows like TSCC how would you get 5.1? surround sound?
again just OTA HD for the sake of speaking it provides best possible PQ and for an explanation read all my recent post


Well, I can only tell you about my situation. I was curious about this at first because my AVR only has 1 optical input. I was looking at a situation where I may have 2-4 devices using optical.

So, had I been able to plug four devices into the Kuro and then use the optical output from the Kuro to the AVR...I wouldn't need to upgrade my AVR.

I was just curious though. I'm still planing on buying a new AVR anyway.

coukos34 why do people want to output signal via optical out from our tvs to our receivers?

have you thought that the tv sometimes is the source ? read bellow

quite simple to get better Picture Quality

here is my take when i watch prision break over the air in HD vs watching it in my source directv
not only i get HD in Over the air But i get better PQ because their is no more conpression being done since its OTA out > to my tv
but at the same time i want 5.1 surround sound


shows like prision break Terminator the sarah connor croniches and such
are in HD via fox or other local channels thare are either
not available in our cable/satelite providers
or
not in HD
and fianly no additonal conpression needed....
i hope this clears things up as this is just 1 of the many benefits using optical out from the tv.
please excuse my miss spelling

I don't understand why people are wanting to run 5.1 signal off of the TV anyways?:confused: It doesn't even make sense....Just go optical (or digital coax) from source to AVR. Why would you go from source, to tv, and then to AVR?:rolleyes:

ok so this is kinda off topic but in regards to the hdcp

dahlsim if ps3 was componet which is fine by me but not all tvs support

full 1080p via componet so that another plus that those nasty hdcp guys liked to convince sony and other companies thinking of componet vs hdmi

Manufacturers and Studios are all comfy and together this time and the hdmi connection is the common tool. In some cases now the Manufacturer and content provider may even be one and the same. Hows that for control? :eek:

You might recall in fact there was a big stink when Sony almost released a PS3(blu-ray player) without hdmi but the powers that be got together and squashed that since hdmi connection is essential to enforcing rules like the downgrading of audio we see here thru the display. If the connection were being made thru component/optical combo for instance they could not enforce the hdcp.

Coincidentally however it appears there are no optical inputs on the Kuro....

sorry guys for the mutiple post but imagen how long one post would be:eek:

and not only would it be long and some would not read, its very useful read


so i hope you guys can read it and please respond or what you think:D

oh and im hoping to get my pro-111 before sept (tscc starts on sept 8th) with break in needs 6 days

here is my take when i watch prision break over the air in HD vs watching it in my source directv
not only i get HD in Over the air But i get better PQ because their is no more conpression being done since its OTA out > to my tv
but at the same time i want 5.1 surround sound




gus,
So how does one get 5.1 for OTA HD? Is it by optical out from TV? Unfortunately, when I mounted my 5020 on the wall, I did not connect an optical out of the TV. I want to connect an HDTV antenna to my TV. Most of these antennas have coaxial connectors. I ran one coaxial RF cable from the TV. but totally overlooked the sound aspect. What are my options? Is there any connector or box that can take input from an antenna and then output video directly to TV while the sound is outputted to an AVR?

coukos34 why do people want to output signal via optical out from our tvs to our receivers?

have you thought that the tv sometimes is the source ? read bellow

quite simple to get better Picture Quality

here is my take when i watch prision break over the air in HD vs watching it in my source directv
not only i get HD in Over the air But i get better PQ because their is no more conpression being done since its OTA out > to my tv
but at the same time i want 5.1 surround sound


shows like prision break Terminator the sarah connor croniches and such
are in HD via fox or other local channels thare are either
not available in our cable/satelite providers
or
not in HD
and fianly no additonal conpression needed....
i hope this clears things up as this is just 1 of the many benefits using optical out from the tv.
please excuse my miss spelling

Good point. I haven't used OTA signals in a while (lousy reception), and forgot about the repercussions that would cause if you have an AVR.

gus,
So how does one get 5.1 for OTA HD? Is it by optical out from TV? Unfortunately, when I mounted my 5020 on the wall, I did not connect an optical out of the TV. I want to connect an HDTV antenna to my TV. Most of these antennas have coaxial connectors. I ran one coaxial RF cable from the TV. but totally overlooked the sound aspect. What are my options? Is there any connector or box that can take input from an antenna and then output video directly to TV while the sound is outputted to an AVR?

Yes, you get 5.1 by running optical from the TV.

You could buy an external HDTV tuner, but wouldn't it be a lot easier just to run an optical cable from the TV? Get a friend to help you dismount it.

i'm glad my points are useful, although this thread all of suddenly just died after i posted my comments, makes me think if i nailed it on the head :eek:

and aks434 yes its more simple just to gain acess to the tv and put an optical out,
for tv 5.1 out from ota hd and no added conpression from cable/satelite providers.


also im considering a wall mount but was concern such issue(s) as mentioned
lack of being able to have freedom to acess the back of the pdp and do not want it to be all the way in the back because i want heat to go throught
i want style of it but not concern about space limitations.

and i dont know much about wall mounts such as diffrent names for them
i know i wouldnt want a fixed wall mount i would want to move it up down is this referd as a tilt?
i currently have a 42" panasonic and i think i'll get the 111 around sept would it be a good ideal just to keep it on a stand and later get the mount due to better mount options or price? please help:D

funny while i used to sell tvs in sears over 1yr ago and was good at it i never looked into mounts....

aks434

The only time you will get DD 5.1 out of the tv using optical is when using the Pioneer tuner in the panel due to HDCP.

Today I ordered a PRO-111. It was much better with the standard def DVDs I threw at it than the 5010, which is the set I went to evaluate. It's more than I planned to spend, but I'll have the set for a while. I decided the set was worth giving up the extra component connection of the 5010, which I wanted.

Now, I need to get a new stand and reconfigure my apartment, since the 56" width won't look good sitting on a 40" stand.

COngrats, its a great unit!

Congrats, prepress!! Enjoy a FANTASTIC set.

BTW, traditional animation on SD is a great test for these sets. I had a Justice League DVD on and the 111 was cleaner and sharper with it than the 5010; that was the kicker. Outlines were sharp, with no processing-related distractions that I saw. Color was clear (Superman's cape was a bit magenta, but I'm sure I can tweak that if I see it again once the set's here) with no artifacts. Good stuff. The Joss Stone concert looked quite close to what it looks like on my current Sony CRT, as did Down from the Mountain, a show featuring music and musicians from the movie O Brother Where Art Thou?. The 5010 was a bit soft by comparison on everything, but it was most obvious on the cartoons.

The processing difference was less obvious with Blu-ray material. Differences using Open Season and a Chris Botti (the store's discs) were more subtle (to my eyes very subtle with Open Season), but again, the 5010 was softer, though it still looked good.

Delivery is a few weeks away, since I have serious work to do to get ready.

I thought D-Nice was supposed to do a review of the 111 pretty soon. I saw there was a delay due to a bad shipment a while ago, but did I miss something else?

He got two broken 111's he received a working unit like two weeks ago, and his review will be up this coming week.

Thanks, I am looking forward to the review.

Forgive me for posting this here, but the 9G thread is getting all the love these days, and D-Nice never visits the 8G thread anymore, so:

Quick question concerning pure cinema. It is my understanding this feature chooses the programming the plasma uses for deinterlacing incoming signals. The plasma is supposed to recognize a progressive signal and not apply processing correct? I have also read that sometimes this doesn't work, as the plasma "sticks" with whatever was set, even if you switch channels to another input resolution where the plasma is supposed to "grey out" the choice. Additionally, I think I have read that Pioneer fixed this issue on later manufactured date 8Gs, is this correct also? (my 5010 was made in 04/08) My main question is this, since I don't watch SD tv now that DTV has increased their HD channels, and I get all 4 major networks plus public television in HD via over the air, and I send the set an upscaled 1080P 60 signal from my OPPO 983, what happens to 1080i signals if I turn the pure cinema off? Does the plasma still deinterlace it and convert to 1080P? If so, what algorithm is it using, standard? advanced? Because of the chance for things to still get processed, even though they are not supposed to (720P 60 and 1080P 60 signals), I am contemplating leaving pure cinema off. This assumes 1080i is handled properly. Time for the gurus to come out and enlighten me :-)

John

Since 9g elite is in my future i want to get blueray player that does 480i through HDMI for my sd collection.I have an oppo 970 that does it but I want to upgrade to blueray.Any suggestions greatly appreciated. thanks

Since 9g elite is in my future i want to get blueray player that does 480i through HDMI for my sd collection.I have an oppo 970 that does it but I want to upgrade to blueray.Any suggestions greatly appreciated. thanks

Pioneer BDP-51fd or Elite BDP-05fd or Elite BDP-09fd. You can retire your sandalone CD player too.

Chances are, you might want to keep the Oppo anyway, the speed of the Oppo may still be appealing even after you get a blu-ray player that passes the 480i signal.

Though I have a 51FD set to pass the source's resolution natively, I will not entirely retire my Oppo 980H because still one of the fastest responding DVD players I've had.

Does anyone have any ideas or recommendations for a good stand for the 111? I'm looking at Sanus and Salamander now, but if there's another suggestion it would be appreciated. I'd prefer not to have glass shelves, and want something around 25–30 inches tall. And it must be able to hold at least 4 pieces of audio equipment, including power amps. My current Sanus will hold a 111 definintely, but it's not wide enough at 40". Thanks.

D-Nice

I asked you this before....I guess you did not notice my post

I see that you prefer the 151FD elite over the 6020. Is it because of the tweaking options or are there more reasons to it?
Personally, I just like the way elite looks but I am not sure about the picture difference btwn the two of them

Actually i noticed this in the previous posts ....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13882681#post13882681

Would that be your answer over why you prefer the elite


Was this question ever answered by D-Nice? As I'am interested in both these sets myself but do not have the time to read this very long thread.

the 151 would be preferred over the 6020 for settings and picture ajustments which is something that the 6020 lacks of, and the filter on the panel/glass is diffrent i belive (not 100% sure) d nice will know this so thats the most imporant thing after that its just cosmetics

Does anyone have any ideas or recommendations for a good stand for the 111? I'm looking at Sanus and Salamander now, but if there's another suggestion it would be appreciated. I'd prefer not to have glass shelves, and want something around 25–30 inches tall. And it must be able to hold at least 4 pieces of audio equipment, including power amps. My current Sanus will hold a 111 definintely, but it's not wide enough at 40". Thanks.

My favorite is the Diamond Case TT-400, but they have others. Checkout: diamondcase.com

Does anyone have any ideas or recommendations for a good stand for the 111? I'm looking at Sanus and Salamander now, but if there's another suggestion it would be appreciated. I'd prefer not to have glass shelves, and want something around 25–30 inches tall. And it must be able to hold at least 4 pieces of audio equipment, including power amps. My current Sanus will hold a 111 definintely, but it's not wide enough at 40". Thanks.

Lots of suggestions, pix, all prices, tastes:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=416358

does any one know if the room light sensor setting. should be on or off.. do most of u have it on... I have a 5020

from what i have picked up here:

- the light sensor is only used in optimum mode
- on the x020 series, most prefer movie mode

Yeah, movie puts out the most accurate picture on the xx20 series. Maybe not the most appealing to the untrained eye, though.

Untrained eye is a good way of putting it. In the few weeks I've had my Kuro I've gotten very used to Movie mode and now prefer it way more to any other modes. When I first got it I had to use Game mode, but now if I do I can't stand the blue-ish skintones, despite having the whiter whites.

Game mode still works fine for gaming though, I usually use it for things like Rock Band.

Untrained eye is a good way of putting it. In the few weeks I've had my Kuro I've gotten very used to Movie mode and now prefer it way more to any other modes. When I first got it I had to use Game mode, but now if I do I can't stand the blue-ish skintones, despite having the whiter whites.

Game mode still works fine for gaming though, I usually use it for things like Rock Band.

Thing to keep in mind about games is that the developer, while designing for NTSC did not necessarily design with an ISF film biased styling in mind.

Movie mode can look great on games but so can other modes and this can vary extremely depending on the game. An Xbox Arcade game for instance with arcade monitor style visuals as its target is probably not giving you what the designer intended in a movie mode.

i would like great shadow detail no black crush and accurate colors even for my games so i think gaming does benefit from proper calibration and picture settings/adjustments

i would take accurate properly calibrated over pop any day

Physically, what is changed from the 8G to the 9G? Panel? Color Filter?

I am curious how they reduced the black levels in the 9G units.

Thanx

the panel itself changed. Not just colour filter. No colour filter can reduce the black level by 5x while boosting the overall brightness.

i would like great shadow detail no black crush and accurate colors even for my games so i think gaming does benefit from proper calibration and picture settings/adjustments

i would take accurate properly calibrated over pop any day

Gus, I'm not sure exactly what you think "accurate color" is. What is it that you think is defining "accurate color"?

For calibration purposes color is "accurate" if we are seeing the exact colors that the creator of content x intended for us to see. Since content x can be various different types of source we cannot expect complete accuracy from a single calibrated setting.

Even if you have a "perfectly calibrated" HDTV setting it is only accurate to the extent that the original source was created using the same standard that your set was calibrated to.

So for example as one tv review mentions (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Philips-42PFL7662D/Picture-Quality.php) (and I hear from developers)

As a rule of thumb video games are not mastered to D65 imaging standards, so I went with the [Multimedia] preset to inject more vibrancy to the picture.

So the low temp styling of movie mode does look good for many games by giving the game a more realistic and film like quality but we cannot say it's necessarily more accurate unless we know that the developers were targetting the same Rec. 709 D65 based standard that you are targetting with your Kuro.

well a proper calibration should take care of black crush and shadow detail right? thats an inprovement to begain with, so does this mean we can have more fluid vivid pop on games?

well a proper calibration should take care of black crush and shadow detail right? thats an inprovement to begain with, so does this mean we can have more fluid vivid pop on games?

A good calibration will set up your TV so that it meets the video standards directors used when making movies. Some movies purposely create "innacurate" colors for cinematic effect (think the movie 300), but a well calibrated set will show the colors just as the director saw in his expensive monitor when they were editing the film. So you will see accurate skin tones and colors if that's what the director had in mind, or you will see somewhat exagerated or muted colors if that's what the director had in mind. But the point is that the visual element of a film is important for the effect it has on us as we view it, and you will see what the creator (director) wanted.

Video games don't follow the same standard as movies, so a well calibrated TV may show video games as muted in color and brightness slightly. There is nothing wrong with playing the game like that, but you may want to bump up the color a few notches when gaming if that's your preference.

To answer your question, a well calibrated TV may not yield the "Pop" and vividness you speak of for gaming, but it should help shadow detail and black levels. Then just turn up the color a bit if you want more vividness and color saturation for the game.

I've heard that there are firmware limitations of the 5020's and 6020's that prevent them from being properly calibrated. That being said, would I be better off purchasing a 5010 or 6010 or is the firmware on this locked too?

A good calibration will set up your TV so that it meets the video standards directors used when making movies. Some movies purposely create "innacurate" colors for cinematic effect (think the movie 300), but a well calibrated set will show the colors just as the director saw in his expensive monitor when they were editing the film. So you will see accurate skin tones and colors if that's what the director had in mind, or you will see somewhat exagerated or muted colors if that's what the director had in mind. But the point is that the visual element of a film is important for the effect it has on us as we view it, and you will see what the creator (director) wanted.

Video games don't follow the same standard as movies, so a well calibrated TV may show video games as muted in color and brightness slightly. There is nothing wrong with playing the game like that, but you may want to bump up the color a few notches when gaming if that's your preference.

To answer your question, a well calibrated TV may not yield the "Pop" and vividness you speak of for gaming, but it should help shadow detail and black levels. Then just turn up the color a bit if you want more vividness and color saturation for the game.

Very well said!

Things do seem to go out of the window a little with games I have found. I recently set up my 9G for gaming on my PS3 using Game mode with some tweaks.. Playing GTA 4 I'm really happy with how fantastic it looks.

Ok, I know that the US and European 9G's do differ slightly but if anyone is interested here are my gaming settings for the PS3:

Picture Mode: Game
Contrast:34
Brightness: +1
Colour: +5
Tint: 0
Sharpness: -7 (I did have this on -15 but found that -7 to -5 give a more computer monitor type look)

Picture Detail
-------------
DRE Picture: Low (adds alittle sharpness but improves contrast and definition)
Black Level: On
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 1
Gamma: 2

Colour Detail
------------
Colour Temp: Mid-Low
CTI: Off
Colour Space 1

Noise Reduction Options - Off
Game Control Pref: On (In Options).

I run in 1080p mode on the PS3 in dot by dot mode with the orbiter on mode 2.

Game control pref is incredible! Since activating it I am finding games have a whole new feeling of speed and response. Driving in GTA 4 is immense.

Not sure how closely the european sets match up but this might be a starting point for people wanting to configure their set for gaming..

Settings from a UK PDP-5090 9G...

Since 9g elite is in my future i want to get blueray player that does 480i through HDMI for my sd collection.I have an oppo 970 that does it but I want to upgrade to blueray.Any suggestions greatly appreciated. thanks

Question, why would you want to send a 480i when standard DVD's are in
480p????

Does anyone have any ideas or recommendations for a good stand for the 111? I'm looking at Sanus and Salamander now, but if there's another suggestion it would be appreciated. I'd prefer not to have glass shelves, and want something around 25–30 inches tall. And it must be able to hold at least 4 pieces of audio equipment, including power amps. My current Sanus will hold a 111 definintely, but it's not wide enough at 40". Thanks.

It's a little off topic, but I looked everwhere for a nice stand/credenza that would hold my Pio 111 that actually looks like a piece of furniture (ie: wood) and have enough space for my paradigm center center channel (23" wide x 7" tall) and four components. I finally found this one at Bassett furniture, which comes in 54" and 64" widths in cherry or black. I bought the 64" wide version, but here's what the 54" looks like:


http://www.bassettfurniture.com/images/catalog/ProductDetail/96300856S.JPG

link: http://www.bassettfurniture.com/store/productDetailForm.asp?imgid=984&Seq=1

It hasn't come in yet, but immediately bought it when I saw it in the store. Nice construction, very sturdy hardwood (not particle board). The 64" looks just like the one pictured, with wider side cabinets. Dims are 64"w x 25" d x 26" h. The adjustable cabinet shelves are 22" deep, by 19" wide, and comes with wood, glass, AND speaker fabric door panel inserts. I paid $850.

There are a lot of other pieces in the set, should you want to create a whole entertainment wall with hutches, shelves, etc, and has matching tables and desks. I ended up redoing my whole room with pieces from the collection. Just do a search for "Hanover".

Question, why would you want to send a 480i when standard DVD's are in
480p????Maybe because SD DVD transfers are stored on the disk as 480i. ;)

Many with a stand alone video processor, or a Kuro panel are interested in outputting 480i from SD DVDs just to avoid doing the de-interlacing in the player. The OPPO 970 and 980 players are popular just because they are able to output 480i using HDMI which also avoids a conversion from digital to analog.

The early DVD players all output 480i using analog composite, S-Video or component. The next stage was progressive players that would de-interlace 480i to 480p using the same outputs. Those players all had some sort of switch that determined the output -- 480i or 480p.

Before HDMI or DVI outputs were available, all DVD players had to convert the 480i signal from digital to analog.

Maybe because SD DVD transfers are stored on the disk as 480i. ;)
Actually most SD transfers of films are stored on the DVD as 480p. Few are hard telecined.

Actually most SD transfers of films are stored on the DVD as 480p. Few are hard telecined.EDIT: I don't know how the technical aspects of transfering film to digital in either SD, Blu-ray, or HD-DVD works. What understanding I have comes from discussions like the ones that go on in this thread.

Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD & BDP-51FD merged threads (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=972724)

It would be a big help to me if you can explain the popularity, among critical users, of SD DVD players that can output unaltered 480i over HDMI.

The stated reasons, that I've read here at AVS, are to avoid a digital to analog conversion, and to avoid doing any de-interlacing/scaling in the player.

One of the main features of Pioneer's new Blu-ray players is that they can output the stored data from both SD and HD disks unaltered (Source Direct) using HDMI. For SD disks, that's said to be 480i. The two OPPO SD players have the same advantage for critical end users -- unaltered 480i via HDMI.

Any help you can give me on this topic will be appreciated. :)

Question, why would you want to send a 480i when standard DVD's are in 480p????

Do any DVD players output 480/24p? As far as I know, they all output 480/60p.

On the other hand, if you output 480/60i, the Kuro will perform the inverse telecine, recapture the original 480/24p frames, and display them at 72Hz.

So, with 480p from the DVD player, the TV displays it at 60Hz and you get the 3:2 cadence judder. With 480i, the displays it at 72Hz and you get smoother motion.

It would be a big help to me if you can explain the popularity, among critical users, of SD DVD players that can output unaltered 480i over HDMI.
I'm afraid I can't offer much information on that aspect. My experience with this is strictly from an HTPC perspective. What I know of how DVD video is stored, I don't understand what "unaltered 480i" really means.

The MPEG2 stream on a given DVD title contains flags that indicate whether the content is 480p24 or 480i30. So when you refer to "unaltered 480i," I imagine that 480p24 must be pulled down in order to be carried in 480i30, which pulldown is then reversed by the display.

Alternatively, the flags mentioned could simply be translated into whatever mechanism exists in HDMI to indicate the video signal. What this means then is that when the flag says the content is 24p (well, 24000/1001 for NTSC), the HDMI signal is adjusted to 480p24, and when the flag indicates it's 30i (30000/1001), the signal is switched to 480i30.

But when the video signal switches this way, I don't know if it manifests as a flicker on the display. (This would really be noticeable with some films that are edited in video mode before transferred to DVD, which results in frequent switches back and forth from 480p24 and hard telecined 480i30, and in many cases the telecine patterns are broken.)

So I, like you, am curious how this really works with higher end players. But what I do know for certain is that the vast majority of films transfered to DVD are 480p24. The easiest way to see this is to pop a DVD in your PC and play it back with software that doesn't do any postprocessing (like ivtc or deinterlacing) and step through it frame by frame. You'll see there are 24 progressive frames per second.

I'm afraid I can't offer much information on that aspect. My experience with this is strictly from an HTPC perspective. What I know of how DVD video is stored, I don't understand what "unaltered 480i" really means.It might mean that the bit stream is passed on without any processing, but I don't know either.

The MPEG2 stream on a given DVD title contains flags that indicate whether the content is 480p24 or 480i30. So when you refer to "unaltered 480i," I imagine that 480p24 must be pulled down in order to be carried in 480i30, which pulldown is then reversed by the display. That may be it, because I have encountered the idea that the 480p24 data is contained in a 480i package. Of course, I don't know for sure what that means either.

I just ask this question in the Blu-ray thread (above). Maybe a "critical enthusiast" from that thread will shed some light.

Your understanding, from what you observe on your computer, implies to me that the earliest DVD players interlaced the 480p24 stream so that it could be displayed on interlaced CRT displays. Which would also imply that the "progressive mode" switches, that were added later, prevented that interlacing process from taking place.

Shasta in english basicly it means that the by using an un alterd digital signal to the kuro the kuro will do a better job at upscaling it from 480i to 1080p or what ever resolution you desire.

much better then the oppo players and if i remember right D-nice said that the kuros scaler/video processor? rivals high end outboards

hdmi is the only source that sends a digital signal

Question, why would you want to send a 480i when standard DVD's are in
480p????

davewolf theirs an extent to this that will make a long post so i would suggest start reading the 9g non elite thread since this thread is mixed withat info but its hard to find.

but in short the new 9g xx20 series is considerd better by the all mighty D-nice as he pefer the 6020 over his 8g ELITE 1150, but the downside is that pioneer hardwired or coded to say the settings to certin a/v picture modes
and picture settings have been striped or reduced.

so if you are the set it and forget it person then 6020 is perfect for you

if you like to play with the settings alot and thinking of having it professional calibrated i would suggest the ELITE version of the 9g.

i would stay with this new 9g then the 8g because its just better Picture Quality
I've heard that there are firmware limitations of the 5020's and 6020's that prevent them from being properly calibrated. That being said, would I be better off purchasing a 5010 or 6010 or is the firmware on this locked too?

Your understanding, from what you observe on your computer, implies to me that the earliest DVD players interlaced the 480p24 stream so that it could be displayed on interlaced CRT displays.
Right, which is exactly what 3:2 pulldown does.

Any time a DVD player outputs at 480i60, for example with S-video, it would need to explicitly pulldown any soft telecined material. (Hard telecined or interlaced material it would just pass through as that's already 480i60.)

For progressive scan DVD players connected to a progressive display over component say, given 480p24 material (which remember is native format of the bulk of films on DVD), the DVD player wouldn't need to do any pulldown reversal nor would it apply traditional 3:2 pulldown, but I suppose it must do some sort of pulldown in order to deal with the framerate mismatch, because unlike digital carriers like HDMI or DVI, doesn't component operate at a fixed frame (or field) rate? I've always wondered what progressive scan DVD players do here; my assumption was something like duplicating every 4th frame.

Being primarily in HTPC land, I never quite acquainted myself of how consumer electronics actually work. :)

Being primarily in HTPC land, I never quite acquainted myself of how consumer electronics actually work. :)I do both, but there are holes in my acquaintance. :eek:

Someone somewhere in one of the (too) many 9G threads mentioned a website where he purchased some kind of special cloth he used to clean the frame on his Kuro. Does anyone remember what website that was? I just scratched the crap out of my 151 frame using the FRICKIN' CLOTH THAT CAME WITH IT.

have you tried buff out? and is it noticeable right away like with pics? or micro small?

i thought microfibers cloths that came with oem are always good? whats going on pioneer?

have you tried buff out? and is it noticeable right away like with pics? or micro small?

i thought microfibers cloths that came with oem are always good? whats going on pioneer?

I haven't tried anything else yet. I'm so p'd off right now.... :mad:

can i use air blower lol air spray to push out the big dust away and then softly damp on the bezel etc?

I haven't tried anything else yet. I'm so p'd off right now.... :mad:

I know it doesn't help now (sorry) but I usually use compressed air to dust the frame first, then any microfiber cloth is usually OK. I think the enclosed one is meant for the screen itself, although I could be wrong about that. I have used it for that (after dusting again) and it worked fine on the screen.

I have a scratch too from unloading it :(. I have no idea what could make it better at this point though.

Shasta in english basicly it means that the by using an un alterd digital signal to the kuro the kuro will do a better job at upscaling it from 480i to 1080p or what ever resolution you desire.

much better then the oppo players and if i remember right D-nice said that the kuros scaler/video processor? rivals high end outboards

hdmi is the only source that sends a digital signal

I haven't looked at it in a while, but I believe that D-Nice mentioned that his6020 didn't do that great of a job in scaling a dvd with an untoched 480i signal in his review.

no what happend was these problems

* SD content from a 50" to 60" changes

* no adjustments on the non elite to fix it

and the picture was softer.....

but the kuro scaler is better then a outboard scaler that is what d-nice said him self

thats why everyone who dvd player or bd player that can output 480i unlalterd should do it .

For all those folks out there that just got a new Kuro and are looking for the best Blu-ray discs to show it off there is a great PQ tier thread over in the blu-ray software section of AVSforum. I have found it extremely useful in determining which Blu-rays to buy and rent:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858316

Check it out!

DVD players were not even released nationwide till about 1997...at a time when 99.9% of the TVs in the market only had interlaced displays. HDTV did not roll out till about 1999 (if I remember correctly) and only a few could display a 720p signal and most were 1080i sets.

When progressive DVD players started to arrive, I believe that the players themselves had to turn the signal from the DVD from interlaced to progressive and some players did that better than others. If the signal on a DVD was progressive, all the players would only had to of passed the signal directly through the player. And if so, it would stand to reason that most if not all the progressive DVD players would be near the same quality (as far as passing through a progressive signal).

I've never heard of 480p DVDs, and making one play on a standard DVD player, probably would not work. To make 480p DVDs play on standard DVD players, would probably necessitate a change with the DVD standard.

So it seems to reason that 480i is the way the signal is encoded on a standard DVD.

So it seems to reason that 480i is the way the signal is encoded on a standard DVD.
As I mentioned above, flags in the MPEG2 stream indicate whether the content is 480p24 or 480i60.

It may well have been the case that the earliest DVDs were 480i60, which means that the film content was hard telecined (stepping through the frames one by one would show the 3:2 pattern). This is easy to imagine, since I do know that the earlier widescreen DVDs weren't anamorphic either.

However nowadays, the vast majority of films are encoded as 480p24. The MPEG2 stream in the DVD VOB for the feature title begins with a flag that indicates the content is 24p, and what follows is a series of progressive frames. Shall we call this 480p or 480i? (I'd call it 480p, but other titles on the DVD may very well actually be interlaced or hard telecined.)

All DVD players must support these flags, and when the flags indicate the content is 24p, they must apply 3:2 pulldown when outputting via S-video or composite at least.

Progressive scan players outputting to a progressive display (via component or a digital output) have very little work to do with those DVDs. Many progressive scan players, however, will also apply pullup to content that is hard telecined (which is not so popular anymore).

We might be arguing about terminology here. But whether you call it 480p or 480i, the feature title of most films on DVD are encoded as progressive frames at 24fps (24000/1001).

So it seems to reason that 480i is the way the signal is encoded on a standard DVD.That's the understanding that I've picked up at AVS over the past six years.

The examples of the OPPO 480i output using HDMI, and Pioneer's "Source Direct" feature which amounts to 480i output using HDMI, seems to me to be a strong argument of something. I'm just not sure what is right now. :rolleyes:

I understand that the 480p@24fps information is stored on the SD disks, but it also seems to me that the only way to get that data off the disk, without the player doing some video processing, is for it to be output at 480i. My understanding of the flags in the data stream is that they let the video processor (where ever it's located) process the data to produce 480p@24fps for film. What happens next must depend on the display.

When I get the new Pioneer Blu-ray player, the first thing I'll do is play a SD DVD with "Source Direct" turned on. I expect our 6010 will report that it's receiving a 480i input.

Quick note on this 480i/480p DVD discussion. Someone mentioned that the Kuro couldn't take a 480p output at 60fps (for a 24fps movie) and display it at 72hz. I've done a lot of playing around with various discs and settings, and the advance mode on pure cinema can identify a 24fps film source in a 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i signal and display at 72hz for a judder free (to the extent that a 24fps film source can be judder free) picture.

So that's good news.

-Reagan

As I mentioned above, flags in the MPEG2 stream indicate whether the content is 480p24 or 480i60.

It may well have been the case that the earliest DVDs were 480i60, which means that the film content was hard telecined (stepping through the frames one by one would show the 3:2 pattern). This is easy to imagine, since I do know that the earlier widescreen DVDs weren't anamorphic either.

However nowadays, the vast majority of films are encoded as 480p24. The MPEG2 stream in the DVD VOB for the feature title begins with a flag that indicates the content is 24p, and what follows is a series of progressive frames. Shall we call this 480p or 480i? (I'd call it 480p, but other titles on the DVD may very well actually be interlaced or hard telecined.)

All DVD players must support these flags, and when the flags indicate the content is 24p, they must apply 3:2 pulldown when outputting via S-video or composite at least.

Progressive scan players outputting to a progressive display (via component or a digital output) have very little work to do with those DVDs. Many progressive scan players, however, will also apply pullup to content that is hard telecined (which is not so popular anymore).

We might be arguing about terminology here. But whether you call it 480p or 480i, the feature title of most films on DVD are encoded as progressive frames at 24fps (24000/1001).
jtack is absolutely right.

By the way, a progressive scan DVD player repeats FRAMES when it detects a soft telecined DVD (a sort of progressive 2:3 pulldown) as opposed to outputting interlaced fields. This way you get a 480p60 signal, instead of 480i60. I hope that helps.

However, I do not know if a Pioneer can perform inverse telecine on 480p60 (24 fps material) and then triply drive it to 72 Hz.

Maybe D-Nice knows.

Well, I can share my observations with my Denon 3800 BD player and my 151. I used the HQV blu ray disc to test some of the 151's processing compared with the Denon. The Denon did a much better job with the film resolution test. Even with 1080i input from the Denon I can't say for sure that it switched to 72hz mode. The jaggies test was probably a little better with the 151.

Concerning advanced film mode with 1080p24 input, panning motion may be just a tad smoother than 1080p60, but you can also pick up what appears to be normal 24fps judder. I can't say that it's a big improvement. What I certainly do not like is the video delay with 72hz mode. The video definitely lags in this mode. Unless you can compensate for this in the player, you have to live with it. I can compensate with my player, but I'm not sure how much experimentation I want to do to get it just right. With 1080p60 mode, the A/V sync is perfect. So I may not even use 1080p24 output from my BD player. In my limited experience so far, it's not that big of a deal with this TV. It may make a bigger difference for front projector setups.

I understand that the 480p@24fps information is stored on the SD disks, but it also seems to me that the only way to get that data off the disk, without the player doing some video processing, is for it to be output at 480i.
For S-video and composite, that 24p content would have to undergo 3:2 pulldown by the DVD player for output. So yes, in that case it would need to be output at 480i60, but video processing is necessary. You can't just output 480p24 at 480i60 without some sort of conversion, which is what I understand you to be saying.

For HDMI (or DVI), if 480p24 is a valid video mode that can be signaled over these digital outputs, why couldn't the DVD player output directly in 480p24? No extra processing or conversion would be needed in the case where the content is encoded as 24p.

What I'm still wondering about is whether any player actually does this. It would be the simplest way, but I have no idea what craziness would happen on those DVDs that flip back and forth between soft and hard telecine and interlaced (either due to sloppy editing or due to mixed film and video material, which you often see in special features containing clips and interviews). In the case of outputting over HDMI, I can only imagine two options:

1. DVD player adjusts video signal between 480p24 and 480i60 depending on the flags in the DVD stream. Wouldn't this result in intolerable flicker or screen blanking during the transition? (It must if it's anything like PC LCD screens over DVI.)
2. DVD player always outputs 480i60. When the DVD stream flag indicates progressive content, DVD player applies 3:2 pulldown, which decent displays can reverse and playback at some integer multiple of 24Hz. (This should be straightforward for even naive ivtc processors, as the 3:2 pattern ought to be relatively solid and easy to lock onto.) Now, for those DVDs which flip often between 24p and 60i, they almost certainly are going to have broken 3:2 patterns, so even good video processors are going to have a hell of a time with that mess.


My understanding of the flags in the data stream is that they let the video processor (where ever it's located) process the data to produce 480p@24fps for film.
Only the DVD player is aware of flags in the MPEG2 stream. In the case of 480p24 material stored on the DVD, there really is no additional processing. All the flag says is "what follows now should be treated as 24fps progressive."

ChuckZ: you mentioned that a progressive scan DVD player will repeat frames in order to pull down the framerate, which answers my earlier question, thanks. I'm wondering is it as simple as repeating every 4th frame, or is there a slightly more complicated approach? (I can't quite imagine what, but I've been surprised before :))

What I certainly do not like is the video delay with 72hz mode. The video definitely lags in this mode. Unless you can compensate for this in the player, you have to live with it. I can compensate with my player, but I'm not sure how much experimentation I want to do to get it just right.
But surely you'd only need to do this once? It doesn't vary between DVDs, does it?

The idea that you need to do this is a bit irritating, but it's not earth shattering for me since I do everything through my HTPC, where adjusting A/V sync is easy enough.

For S-video and composite, that 24p content would have to undergo 3:2 pulldown by the DVD player for output. So yes, in that case it would need to be output at 480i60, but video processing is necessary. You can't just output 480p24 at 480i60 without some sort of conversion, which is what I understand you to be saying.I've been saying that movies are stored on DVD in 480i, and that with video processing that data can be converted to 480p@24fps. Scaling would bring it to 720p or 1080p. For some HD displays it would have to be 1080i.

Here is a reference that reflects what I've understood to be the reason for the desirability of "unaltered" 480i from DVD movies. It also reflects what I've understood, from my users point of view, to be the evolution of the DVD format.

Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD & BDP-51FD merged threads (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14420013#post14420013)

So for me, with no more than a user's background, the original DVD players output 480i without much video processing via composite and S-Video. Later when "Progressive Mode" sets were introduced along with "Progressive Mode" displays, DVD players added video processing to convert the 480i source to 480p for display using component outputs.

Until recently almost all HDMI enabled displays and DVD players could only output 480p using HDMI. OPPO may have been the first, or the first affordable player, that was able to output 480i over HDMI. It seems to have been a good idea, because it sure made them a force in the $170 range. At the same time other manufacturers were aiming at $70 or less for conventional progressive players without HDMI capability.

We may agree and don't know it, or we may have to just disagree until someone explains it better to one or both of us. :)

480I is the worst you can run for dvd. 480p is better from the player. 720p and 1080i are superior.

480I is the worst you can run for dvd. 480p is better from the player. 720p and 1080i are superior.Not if you A/V receiver, display, or outboard video processor does a better job than the DVD player you are using. ;)

^Video processor i can see. Display? no way.

^Video processor i can see. Display? no way.To each his own, but there are a lot of happy Pioneer Kuro owners and the video processor chips in some of the higher priced A/V receivers are very good too.

To each his own, but there are a lot of happy Pioneer Kuro owners and the video processor chips in some of the higher priced A/V receivers are very good too.


I've tested 480I HDMI on the kuro and still seen jaggies-interlaced artifacts. Same thing with sony's. Never seen a tv outperform the player. Receivers i can not say. :)

I've tested 480I HDMI on the kuro and still seen jaggies-interlaced artifacts. Same thing with sony's. Never seen a tv outperform the player. Receivers i can not say. :)What DVD player are you using? Can you point out some examples where you've seen jaggies? Maybe I can try them out on our setup.

I don't recall jaggies being a problem for a lot of Kuro owners. I haven't seen any jaggies from interlaced input (480i and 1080i) over HDMI from our Toshiba A30.

Our 6010 was calibrated with:

AV Selection = Movie Mode
Film Mode = Standard
All enhancements = OFF

What DVD player are you using? Can you point out some examples where you've seen jaggies? Maybe I can try them out on our setup.

I don't recall jaggies being a problem for a lot of Kuro owners. I haven't seen any jaggies from interlaced input (480i and 1080i) over HDMI from our Toshiba A30.


Testing the new sony bdp-s350. For testing to see jaggies at 480i, it's hard to explain how to see it but it's the same idea of progressive scan removing the artifacts. 1080i is fine. 720p-1080i-p should be night and day over 480I and letting the display upconvert.

Testing the new sony bdp-s350. For testing to see jaggies at 480i, it's hard to explain how to see it but it's the same idea of progressive scan removing the artifacts. 1080i is fine. 720p-1080i-p should be night and day over 480I and letting the display upconvert.Any example scenes?

Check chapter2 of---I am legend if you have it. The cars by the water should be artifact free.

Check chapter2 of---I am legend if you have it. The cars by the water should be artifact free.I've just checked the owner's thread and found these two posts.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14248470#post14248470

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14251351#post14251351

From these posts it seems the Sony may be based on the Panasonic which bobs 1080i providing less detail.

There's no Source Direct and I'm not sure about unaltered 480i over HDMI.

At least that's what the folks who are most interested in those features concluded in the area that I searched.

We watched "I Am Legend" on HD-DVD. I'll rent the SD version, and take a look after our vacation.

---Quote (Originally by gwsat)---
It seems to me that the settings made to one‚s own 9G have to boil down to one‚s own notions about which setting provides the best PQ for given program material.
---End Quote---

all program materials were mastered based on a standard. NTSC D65K or REC 709 D65K.

GOing back to the argument that one should just use whatever preference one wants, well... sure. But where are we going to draw the line? Dubbed movies? Pan and scan? 5.1 remix of mono movies? recolouring of black and white movies?
David -- Pan and scan and re-coloring of movies are both practices I can’t abide, which leads me to believe that our disagreement on the personal taste issue isn’t as profound as you might think.

I, too, hate the idea of stetting a display to “stun,” with its brightness amped up to max and its colors oversaturated. I am talking about small adjustments, used to fine tune a display from its defaults. For example, I have found that the default Movie mode on my 6020 provides PQ that I have found thrilling for watching both BD films and those shown on HD cable channels. For example, I watched Zodiac, on Showtime (OAR, natch), and The Sand Pebbles, on BD, yesterday and last night. Both triggered my WOW! reflex.

My 6020 is new, so I may make some changes as it breaks in but for the moment, I think it looks great and suspect that most other viewers would agree. Thus, I have concluded that I neither want nor need professional calibration and that that there is nothing wrong with making settings without using scientific instruments. That said, I have appreciated what D-Nice has had to say about settings in the Kuro threads, and will try to put that knowledge to use

oh man crap! alot of pages were gone :( yeah i know system related

Hi,

I have a Pioneer LX5090 screen with the Pioneer bottom speaker set connected to it (unfortunately no home theater system yet).

I connected my laptop (macbook pro) to the screen. I used a DVI-HDMI cable instead of the VGA input to be able to get full 1080i resolution. This all works fine.

However, since the HDMI signal does not contain any audio, I would need to mix it in from another source. So far, I haven't been able to do so. I tried connecting my computer's audio to the PC audio input, and the component audio input. It seems it will only take audio from the selected HDMI channel itself, because I hear nothing. The one thing I haven't tried yet is using the digital audio input, because I lack the proper cabling, and not sure that will get me any further anyway.

Is there a way to achieve what I want with my current configuration?

PRO-151 legs (AXY1222)

I'm looking to buy the PRO-151 legs / stand brackets, part # (AXY1222) off of any elite users who mounted their TV's on a wall. It appears the pioneer parts department is out of stock and the web pages says greater then 60 days to be back in stock.

Please message me if you have some you need to get rid of :)

Hi,

I have a Pioneer LX5090 screen with the Pioneer bottom speaker set connected to it (unfortunately no home theater system yet).

I connected my laptop (macbook pro) to the screen. I used a DVI-HDMI cable instead of the VGA input to be able to get full 1080i resolution. This all works fine.

However, since the HDMI signal does not contain any audio, I would need to mix it in from another source. So far, I haven't been able to do so. I tried connecting my computer's audio to the PC audio input, and the component audio input. It seems it will only take audio from the selected HDMI channel itself, because I hear nothing. The one thing I haven't tried yet is using the digital audio input, because I lack the proper cabling, and not sure that will get me any further anyway.

Is there a way to achieve what I want with my current configuration?Read your manual :) There is only one HDMI input that accepts analog audio signals. Did you use that port? Did you set the audio option for that port to "Analog" instead of "Digital"?

Read your manual :) There is only one HDMI input that accepts analog audio signals. Did you use that port? Did you set the audio option for that port to "Analog" instead of "Digital"?

Hi,

I have a Pioneer LX5090 screen with the Pioneer bottom speaker set connected to it (unfortunately no home theater system yet).

I connected my laptop (macbook pro) to the screen. I used a DVI-HDMI cable instead of the VGA input to be able to get full 1080i resolution. This all works fine.

However, since the HDMI signal does not contain any audio, I would need to mix it in from another source. So far, I haven't been able to do so. I tried connecting my computer's audio to the PC audio input, and the component audio input. It seems it will only take audio from the selected HDMI channel itself, because I hear nothing. The one thing I haven't tried yet is using the digital audio input, because I lack the proper cabling, and not sure that will get me any further anyway.

Is there a way to achieve what I want with my current configuration?

As an alternative to D-nice's excellent suggestion, I have a gently used Onkyo HT-SP908 for sale which would also solve your problem (and bring you into the "home theater" club...). PM me if you're interested.

KDD

This is torture. How long can a person wait. LOL
When will D-nice's Elite review be posted???

This is torture. How long can a person wait. LOL
When will D-nice's Elite review be posted???

I am sure he will be happy as all are that have the units ;)

Will the shorter Elite "legs" fit the 6020 if the speaker is removed?

have a elite dv-37 via component, thinking about buying oppo 980 hdmi upconverting to do my 150 hour breakin. the dv-37 has never ran that length of time straight. has anyone used the 980 or dv-37 for the breakin process? thanks

buckhunt,

I "believe" I have read that they will fit the 6020 but it would be best to check with Pioneer. You may try to purchase some from someone in the elite forum that has wall mounted their panel.

Any concern with leaving the break-in DVD running on the Kuro 24/7? I'm not concerned about the DVD player, and set the Pioneer to shut down in event of no signal.

Sam S,

No problem , I have done it twice. I did run my dvd player on a ups in case of a power bump. If the dvd player hangs up and displays a menu, the tv may not shut off as it will detect a signal. If you check it every so often though even a menu displayed should not be a problem.

This is torture. How long can a person wait. LOL
When will D-nice's Elite review be posted???

LOL, no kidding. I have been checking this forum for it everyday for weeks. Not to decide whether or not to buy a Pioneer, just to see the difference between Elite and non-elite.

D-nice daughter is sick man just wait :) also mattmorr get an elite its worth the upgrade, and if you are the point where " to buy or not buy a pioneer" well heck i would take a handicapped crippled non elite over anything else in the market of course the elite wins

Will the shorter Elite "legs" fit the 6020 if the speaker is removed?

Yes and it drops the panel about 3 inches.

Pioneer Elite PRO-111FD review at Ultimate AV Mag:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/808pio111/

just moving this thread to the top of the list for quick access once D-nice posts the 111 review.

He's probably waiting to see Phelps win his 8th gold first.

He's probably waiting to see Phelps win his 8th gold first.

I think he must actually be disappointed in the unit, and is too embarrassed to write the review!:eek:

KDD

I think he must actually be disappointed in the unit, and is too embarrassed to write the review!:eek:

KDD

I highly doubt that.
Its probably the opposite.

He has so many good things to say the review was too big and now he is trying to cut the size of the review down.