The Official 9G Pioneer General Discussion Thread [Text View] - Page 32

progprog

01-14-09, 01:47 AM

I just helped a friend install a new 6020. He would like to use the speaker(s) provided with the 6020 for his center channel. His receiver only has one center channel output. How do you wire the L&R speaker terminals together to combine the two speakers into one. I know you are not supposed to wire two +/- leads from one terminal on the amplifier as it could damage the amplifier.

What is the proper way, if any, to do this?

You don't! There are a number of problems with this approach. These speakers are not meant to handle serious receiver output. Combining two speakers on a single jack that way messes with the impedance. And two center channel speakers are usually a bad idea.

I would suggest he try using the "phantom center" approach with his fronts. Especially if he has decent speakers (preferably towers) and positions them well, he would likely get a much better result than if he tried to match those little TV speakers to standalone speakers; they just wouldn't blend well.

JazzGuyy

01-14-09, 07:01 AM

I am trying to decide between a few TV's (5020/6020, 111, 151) and have a couple questions.

When watching HD/BD/DVD, is there any grainyness/noise in the picture or motion blur whatsoever? I am just a real stickler for sharp images and no grain and motion blur on my TV. I am a little nervous about losing picture quality going from the 50 inch to the 60 inch, any thoughts on that? I mostly watch Hockey, Football and movies.

THANKS! :)

Sometimes there is grain/noise and motion blur in the source and no TV can fix that. Some movies have film grain. Some motion is faster than a camera can capture and therefore will show some blur.

The bigger screen size of a 151 or 6020 will not make such inherent flaws any worse than a 50 inch set will. The larger size may make flaws more noticeable though.

I think the my 151 shows me exactly what is in the source.

paulclausen

01-18-09, 11:18 AM

Whats the best way to break in a 5020? I think i'm getting one but not real familiar with plasma break in. Is there a disc that comes with the unit?

vega509

01-18-09, 12:16 PM

Whats the best way to break in a 5020? I think i'm getting one but not real familiar with plasma break in. Is there a disc that comes with the unit?

check here, it's all there ....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1053444

paulclausen

01-18-09, 12:23 PM

Thanks

DimitriKatsaros

01-22-09, 05:19 PM

progprog

01-22-09, 05:47 PM

Hey all,

I wasn't exactly sure where to post this. so if there is a better thread elsewhere please forgive me.

I'm making the move to HD and have settled on the PRO-111FD as the viewing distance I have is 8ft and bigger just doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, a display is only as good as what you feed it and a movie or tv show experience will be crap if the audio isn't there.

So I'm looking for suggestions on:

Blu-Ray Player
A/V Receiver
Speakers
Cables to hook all this up

Thanks in advance for your help
Dimitri Katsaros

BD Player: Any Profile 2.0 BD player that bitstreams all codecs. Pioneer (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/Blu-rayDisc+DVD/Enhanced+Content/Blu-ray) players are known for their outstanding video performance, though they are a bit slow. Their new ones just coming out just be better in that regard. The PS3 is excellent and very fast, but doesn't bitstream the HD codecs.

A/V Receiver: I used to be a Sony fan, but I have come to really love Denon. They are extremely well-implemented (i.e., not bug-proned), and depending on how many connections you need available and the wattage you'll need for your speakers, anything in their XX08CI (http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/AVReceivers.asp) line is absolutely outstanding. They have all the perks and bells and whistles you could want.

Speakers: For home theater especially, I don't think you can beat the sound and value of Definitive Technology (http://www.definitivetech.com/Products/Series/BiPolarSeries.aspx). I would suggest a 5.1 setup from their BP line with a separate subwoofer.

Cables: You can't beat the quality, value, and service of Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/). They'll have everything you need.

sharpjunkie

01-22-09, 05:52 PM

progprog

01-22-09, 06:20 PM

The panny bd35 blu ray player gets good reviews cheap at costco. The pioneer 1018 receiver gets good reviews can be had for sub 500. Klipsch speakers are a decent brand and price. You are looking at around 1500-2000 for a pretty decent system. Half of the price will be the sub and speakers depending on 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1. Check out the blu ray section of the forum and the audio section of the forum for greater detail. However you can go all elite and get an elite receiver, bluray player, and have all pioneer integrated products. All depends on your wallet and how many hours you have to research all of this in the other sections of avs. Good luck, you're gonna need it.

This is an important point. We all want the best we can get, but you really do have to start with a budget. If you can give a ballpark figure of how much you want to spend on all this, you can get much more helpful and informative answers.

Maybe it doesn't all depend on your wallet, but that really is the starting point. Your decision to go with the 111 says you're willing to pay for quality, so I'd say you should spend at least that much for the audio side. Personally, I'd recommend a minimum of twice the display budget for the audio gear. :cool:

sharpjunkie

01-22-09, 07:44 PM

DimitriKatsaros

01-23-09, 02:44 AM

This is an important point. We all want the best we can get, but you really do have to start with a budget. If you can give a ballpark figure of how much you want to spend on all this, you can get much more helpful and informative answers.

Maybe it doesn't all depend on your wallet, but that really is the starting point. Your decision to go with the 111 says you're willing to pay for quality, so I'd say you should spend at least that much for the audio side. Personally, I'd recommend a minimum of twice the display budget for the audio gear. :cool:

Wow... so are you saying that "rule of thumb" statement of 60% display 30% audio/receiver/player 10% cables is utter BS? If so, with a proposed budget of "only" $5000 be better served by going to a $2500 display and put the rest towards playback and audio? Or... should I just get the 111 and a player like the BDP-05fd (or the BDP-23fd in April) and "live" with the built-in speakers until I can afford the receiver and speakers?

Sorry for being such a noob with reguards to budgeting... I was just going by what I've read in some introductory articles in magazines.

Thanks
Dimitri

sharpjunkie

01-23-09, 03:10 AM

Wow... so are you saying that "rule of thumb" statement of 60% display 30% audio/receiver/player 10% cables is utter BS? If so, with a proposed budget of "only" $5000 be better served by going to a $2500 display and put the rest towards playback and audio? Or... should I just get the 111 and a player like the BDP-05fd (or the BDP-23fd in April) and "live" with the built-in speakers until I can afford the receiver and speakers?

Sorry for being such a noob with reguards to budgeting... I was just going by what I've read in some introductory articles in magazines.

Thanks
Dimitri

This is a display forum and your questions will actually be better answered on the audio portion of AVS.

Try here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=88

DimitriKatsaros

01-23-09, 03:35 AM

This is a display forum and your questions will actually be better answered on the audio portion of AVS.

Fair enough... to get back to video, then.... how is the video processor/transcoder/upconverter that is in the PRO-111FD? Is it worth investing in a A/V Receiver or a Blu-ray player that has advanced circuitry or is the 111 impressive on its own?

Thanks
Dimitri

progprog

01-23-09, 03:41 AM

Wow... so are you saying that "rule of thumb" statement of 60% display 30% audio/receiver/player 10% cables is utter BS?

Thanks
Dimitri

I've never heard that rule of thumb. But I'm speaking as somebody who, like many others, feels that audio is at least half the experience of great home theater. As sharpjunkie points out, this is a display forum, so you could be speaking to a more display-focused crowd here. (There are more general home theater threads you might find interesting as well.) I know from other Kuro threads that there are plenty of folks who only use the TV speakers. That's okay for them, but it's a shame to watch Blu-Rays, with their fantastic lossless audio, on such a set-up. :(

But....if you really want the whole shebang, I definitely think the audio side is more expensive, if only because it involves so many more components. You need at least a receiver, a disc player, and 5 speakers. (And believe me, there can a lot more than that if you really get into it! :eek:) I have probably spent 5-6 times more on audio than video, not counting cables. So my clear preference would be to build it slowly as your budget allows. That's actually cheaper in the long run over starting with mediocre stuff that you end up replacing a few times until you get where you want to be.

Added Comment: Yes, I think 60% video and 30% audio and 10% cables is utter BS. :p

progprog

01-23-09, 03:52 AM

Fair enough... to get back to video, then.... how is the video processor/transcoder/upconverter that is in the PRO-111FD? Is it worth investing in a A/V Receiver or a Blu-ray player that has advanced circuitry or is the 111 impressive on its own?

Thanks
Dimitri

The 9G Kuros are excellent upscalers, and they do a decent job with most standard video processing tasks. But no one can really generalize about whether external processing is needed, because that depends so much on the quality of your sources.

If you'll watch mostly BDs and HDTV, you won't likely notice any improvement with external processing. Maybe, only maybe, there might be a slight benefit if you have a really crappy TV source, for example. But the only way to know is to actually try your sources with your 111 and see if the PQ is satisfactory. I suspect it will be. :D

PS: What are you referring to when you say "transcoder?"

Waboman

01-23-09, 04:13 AM

Wow... so are you saying that "rule of thumb" statement of 60% display 30% audio/receiver/player 10% cables is utter BS?

Where did you get that "rule of thumb" from? I'm tellin' ya right now, it's BS. Audio is at least 50%, if not more.

DimitriKatsaros

01-23-09, 04:20 AM

PS: What are you referring to when you say "transcoder?"

I've read in an old post by M Code that transcoder is the more technically acurate term for what most call upconverter.

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748162

DimitriKatsaros

01-23-09, 04:29 AM

Where did you get that "rule of thumb" from? I'm tellin' ya right now, it's BS. Audio is at least 50%, if not more.

Heh... I'm beginning to understand that... here's one article that refers to this ratio:
http://www.firstglimpsemag.com/editorial/article.asp?article=articles%2F2008%2Ff0505%2F02f05%2F02f05. asp

progprog

01-23-09, 04:30 AM

I've read in an old post by M Code that transcoder is the more technically acurate term for what most call upconverter.

Gotcha.

Heh... I'm beginning to understand that... here's one article that refers to this ratio:
http://www.firstglimpsemag.com/editorial/article.asp?article=articles%2F2008%2Ff0505%2F02f05%2F02f05. asp

Yup. Complete baloney....

prepress

01-23-09, 05:49 AM

I've never heard that rule of thumb. But I'm speaking as somebody who, like many others, feels that audio is at least half the experience of great home theater. As sharpjunkie points out, this is a display forum, so you could be speaking to a more display-focused crowd here. (There are more general home theater threads you might find interesting as well.) I know from other Kuro threads that there are plenty of folks who only use the TV speakers. That's okay for them, but it's a shame to watch Blu-Rays, with their fantastic lossless audio, on such a set-up. :(

But....if you really want the whole shebang, I definitely think the audio side is more expensive, if only because it involves so many more components. You need at least a receiver, a disc player, and 5 speakers. (And believe me, there can a lot more than that if you really get into it! :eek:) I have probably spent 5-6 times more on audio than video, not counting cables. So my clear preference would be to build it slowly as your budget allows. That's actually cheaper in the long run over starting with mediocre stuff that you end up replacing a few times until you get where you want to be.

Added Comment: Yes, I think 60% video and 30% audio and 10% cables is utter BS. :p

As an audio-first guy, I agree completely. And to borrow from that side, I'd start with the source first, then work down the chain. I got the best front end I could afford, then moved on from there, in each case getting what I thought would be a good match with the pieces upstream. After all, the best speakers in the world won't give you the best sound possible if the source can't retrieve the information from the disc to begin with. But good sources (turntable, CD, etc.) and amplification can make a mediocre speaker sound better.

Same with video. Feed your Kuro well (which doesn't have to mean expensive), then relax and enjoy how good it is, whatever the expense ratio turns out to be.

turbe

02-02-09, 12:40 AM

Where did you get that "rule of thumb" from? I'm tellin' ya right now, it's BS. Audio is at least 50%, if not more.

I'd say audio is 50% of the experience...

BrownTown

02-02-09, 12:52 AM

petmic10

02-02-09, 01:01 PM

I'd say audio is 50% of the experience...

I agree.:)

prepress

02-02-09, 02:14 PM

I'd say audio is 50% of the experience...

Not only that, but the two should be proportionate for the best experience, I think. Otherwise, the 50% and 50% may add up to, say, 60%. With my stereo setup, my 111 makes more sense viscerally than the 27" CRT it replaced.

DimitriKatsaros

02-02-09, 04:09 PM

I say Aperion has a pretty good price range. 30 day free in-home trial. The onkyo 600-800 receivers are good and don't break the bank. HSU subs are also good. Accessoriesforless has some good deals on refurb onkyo receivers.

Thanks BT... I check those out. :)

Not only that, but the two should be proportionate for the best experience, I think. Otherwise, the 50% and 50% may add up to, say, 60%. With my stereo setup, my 111 makes more sense viscerally than the 27" CRT it replaced.

Prepress.... would you mind listing the setup you have for your 111? I might not duplicate it exactly, but I think it would give me a good gauge for what is "reasonable." :)

Thanks
Dimitri

JazzGuyy

02-02-09, 04:33 PM

Thanks BT... I check those out. :)

Prepress.... would you mind listing the setup you have for your 111? I might not duplicate it exactly, but I think it would give me a good gauge for what is "reasonable." :)

Thanks
Dimitri

For many members, if you click on their name you can get to their profile where they will often have what equipment they own posted.

progprog

02-02-09, 04:42 PM

Not only that, but the two should be proportionate for the best experience, I think. Otherwise, the 50% and 50% may add up to, say, 60%. With my stereo setup, my 111 makes more sense viscerally than the 27" CRT it replaced.

Absolutely! I don't mean to denigrate anyone's system, as everyone has their priorities, but I'm amazed at some of the pictures I see that look like a Magnolia listening room with a little LCD sitting on top of some gigantic center speaker. :eek: Or alternately, a beautiful 60" Kuro paired with a WalMart HTIB..... Now, I certainly recognize that this is sometimes a budget issue, and I'd never criticize anyone's personal financial choices. But I strongly agree with prepress that a proportionate system just makes for a much better home theater experience....and looks a lot better too. ;)

prepress

02-02-09, 07:09 PM

Thanks BT... I check those out. :)

Prepress.... would you mind listing the setup you have for your 111? I might not duplicate it exactly, but I think it would give me a good gauge for what is "reasonable." :)

Thanks
Dimitri

Okay. Here's the whole system, including non-video.

VPI HW19-MkIV turntable
VPI PLC line conditioner
Pioneer Elite DVL-91 combi-player
Denon TU-800 tuner
Marantz DV8400 universal player
Aragon 47k phono preamp
Audio Research LS3 preamp
B&K M-200 Sonata monoblock power amps (2 pair)
DVDO EDGE video processor
Pioneer Elite PRO-111 plasma display
Mirage M3si speakers
Kimber Hero, Audioquest Black Mamba II interconnects
Kimber 8TC speaker cable
Tripplite LCR2400 voltage regulator/line conditioner
Tripplite HT1012ISOCTE power center

This is essentially a conventional stereo to which video was added, and most of the equipment is 15-16 years old. The 111 replaced a 27" Sony XBR. I haven't listed equipment racks, furniture or anything else not directly involved with sound or pictures. The Marantz may be relegated to CD-only duty or replaced altogether; research continues on a new disc player (that's why I'm on these forums).

The proportionality really comes into play with the speakers. I have no subwoofer, but the Mirages go down to 30Hz, with usable bass response to 26Hz. While I was fine watching my Sony, the larger screen of the 111 fits the impact of the sound from my system better. The rumble of an explosion now makes more sense, in a way, and I find the psychological and visceral reaction to the images is greater. The speakers are 53" tall and 18" wide (though only 7.75" deep; the base is 11" deep), and that adds to the effect because they make more visual sense flanking my 111, whereas perhaps they overpowered the XBR somewhat. And though i didn't list equipment racks or stands, I will say they help the system's visual impact (proportionality), even when off.

I don't know if this makes sense or helps any. I spent what, for me, was a lot of money putting that stereo together. The most expensive piece (based on MSRPs at the time) was the power amps (because I got 2 pair), then the turntable, next the speakers, the LD player, the preamp, and so on. The price difference between the amps and the turntable is about $400. Now, the TV is the most expensive.

But today's receivers offer a lot for the money, and if an AVR is what you want then I'd say first figure out what you want/expect from a receiver then look for one that fits the bill for the best price. If you get the best you can afford that suits you, you need not look back.

prepress

02-05-09, 05:08 PM

Anyone who registered their display with Pioneer should be receiving a notice about a firmware update for the PDP-5020FD, PDP-6020FD, PRO-111FD, and PRO-151FD models. I just received one via e-mail.

gwsat

02-05-09, 05:22 PM

Anyone who registered their display with Pioneer should be receiving a notice about a firmware update for the PDP-5020FD, PDP-6020FD, PRO-111FD, and PRO-151FD models. I just received one via e-mail.
Thanks for the heads up on the firmware updates. For reasons too complicated, not to mention uninteresting, to go into here, I do not currently have my 6020 connected to my network. I would appreciate hearing reports from anyone who installs the new firmware before I go to the trouble of reconnecting to my network in order to download it myself.

progprog

02-05-09, 05:40 PM

Thanks for the heads up on the firmware updates. For reasons too complicated, not to mention uninteresting, to go into here, I do not currently have my 6020 connected to my network. I would appreciate hearing reports from anyone who installs the new firmware before I go to the trouble of reconnecting to my network in order to download it myself.

It's not a direct online update. You download it to a USB drive and install it that way.

NYC Guy

02-05-09, 06:28 PM

This is the email I received:

Important: Notice of Firmware Update for PDP-5020FD, PDP-6020FD, PRO-111FD, and PRO-151FD

Dear Valued Customer

Thank you for registering your Pioneer Elite® PRO-111FD KURO™ high-definition television. In an effort to provide you with a high quality viewing experience, we would like to make you aware of a new firmware update to improve the performance of your television..

Note: The firmware update is intended solely for the following KURO models: PDP-5020FD, PDP-6020FD, PRO-111FD, and PRO-151FD. The firmware update should not be used with any other Pioneer or Elite models.

The firmware update addresses the following:

In some instances, while watching some digital television programs, a Pioneer logo may appear on-screen. This firmware update resolves that issue.

Additional support for MPEG audio output on some digital television channels not previously supported.

Elimination of potential audio noise that may occur at the end of a wave (.wav) file when using the Home Media Gallery feature for playback of certain files.

Elimination of potential video noise that may appear in the top left corner of the television when using the slide show mode in Home Media Gallery.

Correct display of programming information on the Channel Banner when using the television's tuner.

Even if you are not currently experiencing any issues with your KURO flat-panel television, we still recommend that you install the free firmware update.

Installation of the update should take approximately 10 minutes to complete.

HOW TO OBTAIN THE FREE FIRMWARE UPDATE:

Pioneer is offering the following three options for consumers to obtain the free firmware update:

Download the free update to a computer here and transfer the update to a USB flash drive (28MB of free space required) for insertion into the plasma; OR
Order on-line a USB flash drive containing the free update by accessing the following URL: http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/pdpfirmware; OR
Order by phone a USB flash drive containing the free update by calling Pioneer Customer Service toll free at 800-421-1404 and then transferring to the Parts Order Department (select Option 1)

HOW TO DETERMINE IF THE FIRMWARE UPDATE HAS ALREADY BEEN INSTALLED:

To determine if the new firmware update has already been installed on a PDP-5020FD, PDP-6020FD, PRO-111FD, or PRO-151FD, please power on the television and do the following:

With the unit on, press the Home Menu button on the remote control
Press the Down arrow button five times and select "Setup." Then, press the Enter button
Press the Down arrow button five times and select "System Setup." Then, press the Enter button
Press the Up arrow button once and select "Technical Info." Then, press the Enter button.
The software version information will display on the television screen. If the current software version displayed on the screen is less than 0904-0401, the firmware update needs to be performed. If it is larger than 0904-0401, the firmware update does not need to be performed.

If you have any questions, please contact Pioneer Customer Service toll free at 800-421-1404. Pioneer service representatives are available Monday through Friday, 9:00 a.m. to 7:30 p.m. (Eastern Time), except on holidays.

Renli3d

02-05-09, 08:02 PM

mymo

02-05-09, 08:40 PM

On the topic of Firmware...

Has anyone upgraded the firmware from a xx20 to an Elite?

Other than firmware, and I beleive an extra sensor, what would be required to upgrade from one to another...

Firmware only... swap a chip... swap a board... two boards.. or?

Broken screen Elites come around from time to time and parts wouldn't be too expensive to get.

slumpey326

02-05-09, 08:48 PM

the firmware installed successfully on my 111fd. just completed it.

my tv name says
software: 0904-0401
hardware: 0x351

CherokeeMan

02-05-09, 09:28 PM

anyone get the update to install successfully? I followed the instructions but the TV won't start the firmware update. Are you supposed to copy the .zip file directly to the thumbdrive or extract it? Do you extract preserving the paths or do you extract the files directly into the root of the thumbdrive? I tried both to no avail. I noticed that there is an .img file, are you supposed to format the thumbdrive with the image?

Extract it to the update file, then drop in your USB.
Mine took about 5 minutes. Fixed the program/time error I was having using OTA.

ferky1

02-05-09, 09:43 PM

Fanaticalism

02-05-09, 11:59 PM

Where did you get that "rule of thumb" from? I'm tellin' ya right now, it's BS. Audio is at least 50%, if not more.

Unfortunately, we are visual creatures by nature. It is only after the fact, that one realizes how important the audio is; not to mention, the toys are so much cooler!

I'll take a McCoke, with those McFries Wabo. ;)

Fanaticalism

02-06-09, 12:02 AM

I'd say audio is 50% of the experience...

Once you have a Kuro, since it doesn't get any better, you get "bored" since you can't spend any money to make it any better. Now, with audio on the other hand, you can spend oodles and oodles of dough, trying to squeeze every last bit quality, making it that much more fun, hence making it 60% of the experience (ATLEAST FOR ME ANYWAY!):D

Fanaticalism

02-06-09, 12:09 AM

progprog

02-06-09, 12:42 AM

Broncocap

02-06-09, 01:14 AM

RichB

02-06-09, 09:23 AM

Seems to me like Pioneer is really trying to turn things around with all of the bad blood that has came about over the last 2 quarters with some of the overpromising, and quirky quality as of late (not my views, just what I have been reading here on AVS with some of their products and CS). Their BD players are coming to life, great CS reports, and now this?

Very nice to see.

Actually, I think the Home Theater Magazine article on Networked TVs (March 2009) did the trick. They were contacted about a problem that caused the panels to lock up when HDMI-CEC was enabled and promised a fix.

I believe they are responsive to published comments much more than AVS, as much as I would like to believe it was this community. They took hits in the reviews about removing gamma and other adjustments so they may be back in the NE's in 2009. ;)

- Rich

Nascar Dog

02-06-09, 10:21 AM

anyone get the update to install successfully? I followed the instructions but the TV won't start the firmware update. Are you supposed to copy the .zip file directly to the thumbdrive or extract it? Do you extract preserving the paths or do you extract the files directly into the root of the thumbdrive? I tried both to no avail. I noticed that there is an .img file, are you supposed to format the thumbdrive with the image?

- After you have downloaded the Zipfile, locate it on your computer and decompress it. An "update" folder will appear.

- Save "update" folder directly on to a USB flash drive.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Support/HomeEntertainment/INSTRUCTIONS+FOR+DOWNLOADING+FIRMWARE+UPDATES+FOR+PDP-5020FD%2C+PDP-6020FD%2C+PRO-111FD%2C+and+PRO-151FD

gwsat

02-06-09, 02:04 PM

Once I saw the link posted by Nascar Dog, I downloaded the firmware update and the instructions to my hard drive and then copied the downloaded update files to a thumb drive. I moved some existing files off of the thumb drive and reformatted it before copying the update folder and its 3 files to the thumb drive. Pioneer's instructions for installing the firmware update to my 6020 were excellent and I didn't have a bit of trouble with it. Because the firmware update was successful, a message came on to that effect when I turned my 6020 back on.

Pioneer advises that if you use your built in tuner you should rescan for viewable channels. I am doing that now and everything is progressing normally. The rescan for analog channels is complete. The digital channel scan is slooow but progressing so I am fairly confident that it will work just fine. Anyway, thanks for the heads up about the firmware update and the later explanatory posts.

Don Burr

02-07-09, 11:28 PM

David Susilo

02-07-09, 11:34 PM

if the LEFT and RIGHT sides are cut off even in 4:3 mode or full mode, you have to change the set up on your satellite box. Full should just make 4:3 programming "fat" and 4:3 should give you black bars on the sides.

PS: for the grey part, my friend use electrical tape.

progprog

02-07-09, 11:59 PM

Just took delivery on a pdp-6020fd; I have the following issues: While watching SD Satellite (Dish Network) we get extreme over-scan. Watching a Mercedes-Benz commercial, an unacceptable and large portion of the text was cut-off on each side of the screen. We tried a number of settings: wide, full, cinema, and 4:3 without any different.

Also, is there any way, PLEASE, to make the side-masks black rather than the horribly distracting gray?As David just said, the problem is with the aspect ratio setting in your SAT box. As for getting the Kuro's gray bars to be black (yes, I think they are hideous too), you'd need to get ControlCAL and go into the service menu. Sometimes, the right combination of AR settings between your tuner and TV results in the tuner setting the bar color, not the Kuro, and that would typically be black.

One little quirk about the Kuros is that they are rather slow locking onto AR changes. So, if you send a source direct signal from your SAT box, you can get a lot of annoying flashing and delay every time you change between channels with different AR or even when the program goes to commercial.

What I do to avoid this is send FULL 1080i from my TV tuner, and then turn off all AR adjustments in the Kuro. I leave it on FULL to get that little bit of overscan that eliminates those garbled lines that can occur along the top of the screen. I know some people can't stand stretching 4:3, but I'm used to it. I watch less and less of it anyway, and it's better than either the gray bars or all that aggravating lock-on trouble.

Clint S.

02-08-09, 08:02 AM

sorry if this has already been covered I just got a new 5020FD tonite from BB my Samsung 720p died after 2 years so i thing a got a hell of a upgrade. if you guys can tell me anything i need to know settings etc.. thanks so much.
See these threads:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1053444
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1034208
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1045175
The first two are different threads even though the first post(s) are the same.

Clint S.

02-08-09, 08:14 AM

Clint S.

02-08-09, 09:03 AM

Pioneer advises that if you use your built in tuner you should rescan for viewable channels. I am doing that now and everything is progressing normally. The rescan for analog channels is complete. The digital channel scan is slooow but progressing so I am fairly confident that it will work just fine. Anyway, thanks for the heads up about the firmware update and the later explanatory posts.
After I updated the FW on my 5020 and I rescanned the channels, two had moved! What's really bizarre is the two are now in the 700's, which is impossible since the tuner only goes to less than 200, right? No one has commented on this, so I guess no one has any explanation!

Even more strange is their channel #'s now on the TV tuner are the same as they are when using the cable box and tuned to their HD channels! 703 and 712 on the box, and when using the 5020's tuner. :confused:

JimP

02-08-09, 09:09 AM

Clint,

Some of the channels frequencies have changed with the analog shutoff coming up. Sounds like the firmware may have expanded the channel numbers for that reason.

Clint S.

02-08-09, 09:41 AM

Clint,

Some of the channels frequencies have changed with the analog shutoff coming up. Sounds like the firmware may have expanded the channel numbers for that reason.
Ah ok, thanks. So you're saying it was just coincidental it happened at the exact same time I updated the firmware? That seems a bit too coincidental. Is it possible the previous channel #'s were still receiving the signal, and still are right now, but the TV.......I don't know how to put this....."decided" to use the new 700's numbers? Previously the channels in question were 27.5 and 33.1, which happens to be their same #'s on OTA! And this is cable remember. Now, on my TV, there's nothing at those channel assignments, and those moved respectively to 703.x and 712.x, which as I said is their exact same assignments (without the decimal) on HD cable with the cable box! I don't see how this is possible.

Isn't the 5020 tuner only a less than 200 channel tuner, like 125 or 175 channels? I can't find any info about that.

kkgsxr

02-09-09, 10:08 AM

Did any of you see this article about Pioneer getting out of the TV business? This is a dark day for Kuro fans...
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/pioneer-kuro-elite,review-1196.html

progprog

02-09-09, 01:48 PM

Did any of you see this article about Pioneer getting out of the TV business? This is a dark day for Kuro fans...
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/pioneer-kuro-elite,review-1196.html

It's been all over the plasma threads for days now...... (There's a whole thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1117484)about it that already has over 1100 posts!)

Clint S.

02-10-09, 01:22 AM

Bump?

Ah ok, thanks. So you're saying it was just coincidental it happened at the exact same time I updated the firmware? That seems a bit too coincidental. Is it possible the previous channel #'s were still receiving the signal, and still are right now, but the TV.......I don't know how to put this....."decided" to use the new 700's numbers? Previously the channels in question were 27.5 and 33.1, which happens to be their same #'s on OTA! And this is cable remember. Now, on my TV, there's nothing at those channel assignments, and those moved respectively to 703.x and 712.x, which as I said is their exact same assignments (without the decimal) on HD cable with the cable box! I don't see how this is possible.

Isn't the 5020 tuner only a less than 200 channel tuner, like 125 or 175 channels? I can't find any info about that.

DJ-phYre

02-27-09, 03:09 PM

My 5020FD was just delivered from Newegg. Waiting for a buddy to get off work to help me come mount it on my stand.

progprog

02-27-09, 03:25 PM

My 5020FD was just delivered from Newegg. Waiting for a buddy to get off work to help me come mount it on my stand.

Congrats!! Nothing like new tech toys!! :D

gtzplayah

02-28-09, 09:17 PM

David Susilo

02-28-09, 09:21 PM

1G Kuro (Pioneer 8G) is still better than the latest and greatest displays available except for 2G Kuro (Pioneer 9G)/

However, whether you'd go with quality or size, only you can decide. I personally prefer qulity over size. That's why I get the 50" Kuros (can't afford the 60")

antennahead

02-28-09, 10:43 PM

Hey about to buy a new plasma tomorrow and due to stock issues i can get the following for the same price, and need help deciding. I can get the pioneer 5020fd floor model 2-3 months running no burn in or scratches or IR and has been through burn in process, or a LG 60PG60 is THX certified and a floor model also 2-3 months used again no IR or scratches, or a samsung PN58a550, the samsung is new in box. maybe swinging towards the 60 inch can anyone swing me over to the kuro although its 10 inches smaller? is the quality that bad on the lg, should i go kuro?

That could be a tough call depending on how discerning a viewer you are. As David said, quality wins........ not that the LG is a bad set, but the Kuro is as good as it gets. I have a 5010, and would love a 60" plasma, but that would have involved a complete tear down of my audio set up and equipment racks, and I wasn't into the additional expense nor hassel at the time I bought the 5010. The 60" will definitely increase the "cinema" experience. Another question to ask, how far away is your primary viewing distance? If you sit 10 to 12 feet back, size will definitely matter more. If your primary seating is 6 to 8 feet, the KURO would be fantastic. In the end, only you can decide between the tradeoffs and what is more important to you.

John
ps: I should add that if size wins for you, I would personally get the Samsung over the LG, but that is my opinion......... better blacks and primary colors.

jesyjames

03-01-09, 10:41 PM

OMG!!! once D-Nice figures out all the tricks in the service menu, it seems as though the non-elites may turn into Elites!!!

Please say it's so D-Nice!!!

If he really accomplished that, I personally would erect a statue in the front yard in his honor =)

RichB

03-01-09, 11:55 PM

Could the Elite speakers of a 111FD be mounted onto a non-Elite 5020?

Has anybody tried this? And does everything "line up" properly?

Yes they can and vise-versa.

Can the Elite 111 speakers be mounted on the 500M?

I think there might be a thickness issue for tight mounting.

Can a 111 owner tell me the dimensions of the side speaker?

Thanks,

- Rich

darita

03-02-09, 10:44 AM

I know this is somewhat, off topic, but it was a sad day past Saturday. The Magnolia up here in Roseville, along with several other Magnolias, have closed their doors for good. I purchased a lot of gear from that store and formed quite a good relationship with the Manager of the store. He always gave me great prices. I was told by the Manager that this store was 27% ahead of last year, but that didn't save them. I will miss them.

HDTV1080P24

03-02-09, 11:59 AM

Pioneer Could Re-Purpose Kuro Brand

By Amy Gilroy -- TWICE, 2/27/2009 1:01:00 PM

"Parsons explained that the market was simply no longer sustainable. “We couldn’t find a point in the future where it would be a viable business that was sustainable economically.” It was difficult to sell a high-end TV in the midst of aggressive price erosion, and then the economy “hit us very hard, frankly,”

"It is possible that the Kuro brand could appear on other products in the future. “We’re still looking at how to leverage the Kuro brand. For us, we don’t want to lightly throw that brand around” unless a product reflects “what the whole Kuro philosophy was about,” he said."

"Pioneer claimed it is not altering its distribution and will continue to service TVs for as long as each state requires if not longer. In California, suppliers are required to supply parts for seven years, he said."

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6640689.html

ChrisJR

03-12-09, 01:41 AM

tcramer

03-13-09, 12:15 AM

I just purchased a PDP 5020FD and want to hang it on the wall. I also purchased a low profile mount from monoprice.com and a Panamax M5300PM and MIW-XT. The question I have is where do you place the electrical box behind the TV...center low/right or left side??? Thank you.

If you mean where you plug the cord into the panel I would say it is located at the center, slightly to the right and about 1/4 of the way up from the bottom. You can also see in the owners manual (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/Manuals/Home/PDP-5020FD_OperatingInstructions0610.pdf) on page 9.

If this is not what you were talking about, sorry and hopefully someone else can answer. :)

erw300zx

03-27-09, 12:01 PM

JazzGuyy

03-27-09, 12:14 PM

Pioneer Tech says "No upscaler in PDP-6020FD" - Can this be true?!

I rarely post, but I am looking to get a plasma and was considering the PDP-6020FD, so I called Pioneer Tech Support because I wanted to know how the display would handle a video source via S-video from my old Pioneer Laserdisc player.

I was hoping that the 6020FD would upscale the laserdisc video, and instead he told me NO, that there IS NO scaler in the 6020FD, as a matter of fact there is no scaler in any of the Pioneer displays! I was shocked! He said the display simply "changes the size of the video image to fit the screen" and that it does not add any lines of resolution. Can this be correct?

This goes against everything that I have read and been told. I even spoke with OPPO Digital regarding upscaling and the Tech Support guy at OPPO recommended the Pioneer 6020FD over the Panasonic Viera due to the Pioneer's better scaling hardware.

So, does the Pioneer Tech Support guy no NOTHING about what their plasmas are doing? I definitely explained the question and even gave multiple examples about turning off the scaling in the video source and letting the display do the scaling and he insisted there is not scaler.

He seemd to understand the question, but I just can't believe his answer could be correct!

What do you think? Does anyone have experience with plugging in lower resolution sources into the 6020FD and does the display increase the lines of resolution?

Thanks!

Nothing can create resolution that isn't there in the source. Pioneer TVs do upscale material, but they can't create resolution out of nothing. They can do a pretty good to excellent job of upscaling but don't look for miracles. You will get a 1920 x 1080 picture but more resolution won't be added. The tech was right that in these circumstances you are essentially just blowing up the picture. I have an LD player plugged in by S-video to a calibrated Elite 151FD and it doesn't look great. It looks no better than decent quality SD video. It doesn't compare with SD DVD even. Part of the problem, I am sure is that the S-video connection just isn't that great.

erw300zx

03-27-09, 12:40 PM

chrisherbert

03-27-09, 12:53 PM

Sure, I realize that nothing can "create" resolution. But there are DVD players that upscale, and also external devices sometimes called "line-doublers" that upscale, and these do so by interpolation or guess work about what the additional pixels should look like. This is what I think of when I read "upscaler", and I thought that the Pioneer plasma would do that.

So you're using the word upscaler to just mean enlarging the picture.

Upscaling and enlarging the picture are exactly the same thing. Sounds like the Pioneer tech is a little confused, as the Pioneers most certainly do scale signals just as an upcovering DVD player would.

They probably won't do quite as good of a job with SD DVDs as an Oppo but that's more of an issue with the quality of deinterlacing than scaling.

erw300zx

03-27-09, 01:45 PM

Upscaling and enlarging the picture are exactly the same thing. Sounds like the Pioneer tech is a little confused, as the Pioneers most certainly do scale signals just as an upcovering DVD player would.

They probably won't do quite as good of a job with SD DVDs as an Oppo but that's more of an issue with the quality of deinterlacing than scaling.

I just called Panasonic to ask the same questions that I gave to the Pioneer Tech Support guy. I asked the Panasonic Tech guy about the Viera TH-58PZ800U and he said that the Panasonics upscale, which he described as just blowing up the picture, and cannot interpolate to create more lines of resolution like a line doubler our upconverting DVD player would do.

This still leaves me puzzled as to why there is always the question about if one should use the "scaler" in the display device or in the Playstation/DVD/etc. It seems to indicate that the display device is NEVER going to be better than the component creating the signal, since all the display can do is enlarge the picture, and never improve it.

JazzGuyy

03-27-09, 02:35 PM

I just called Panasonic to ask the same questions that I gave to the Pioneer Tech Support guy. I asked the Panasonic Tech guy about the Viera TH-58PZ800U and he said that the Panasonics upscale, which he described as just blowing up the picture, and cannot interpolate to create more lines of resolution like a line doubler our upconverting DVD player would do.

This still leaves me puzzled as to why there is always the question about if one should use the "scaler" in the display device or in the Playstation/DVD/etc. It seems to indicate that the display device is NEVER going to be better than the component creating the signal, since all the display can do is enlarge the picture, and never improve it.

Technically, a line doubler is not a scaler. Originally, line doubler was the term applied to Faroudja's original de-interlacers. These effectively doubled the lines by displaying (at that time) 480 lines at a time de-interlaced. Scalers on the other hand convert the input signal by actually multiplying or dividing the number of lines in the picture to match the native resolution of a display. They cannot, however, add resolution though they all do some interpolation to varying degrees of success. A lot depends on how good your input is as well as the abilities of scaler. Laserdisc, on the best transfers, was around 400-420 lines of resolution and was an interlaced format. This is down close to 20% less than SD DVD. It is even worse on letterboxed LDs because maybe only 250-300 lines or so picture content was actually available on the disc. Matters were made worse because, with the exception of a few late LDs, these were not anamorphic transfers. The few late LDs that were anamorphic were extremely rare in the U.S. because few, if any, of the players that could handle anamorphic discs reached these shores. Because LD video was also not digital, but used frequency modulation (FM) as its encoding method, it is very difficult for a lot of scalers which are expecting a digital video stream to do much with the analog data stream coming out of an LD player. The signal has to be converted to digital first to be process and I suspect there is some conversion loss that doesn't help much. I find LD on a modern fixed pixel TV to be only barely watchable. A little better than broadcast SD or VCR tapes but nowhere near DVD quality. LDs still look their best on the old CRT sets the players were made for.

erw300zx

03-27-09, 02:54 PM

chrisherbert

03-27-09, 03:22 PM

xortam

03-27-09, 03:25 PM

Thanks for the responses.

The Pioneer Tech guy also told me that after this year Pioneer will no longer be making any TVs at all. He said that producing a quality product resulted in too high of a price to the consumer, and that they don't want to cut the quality, so they will instead no longer make any TVs.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. Pioneer probably couldn't compete at the lower quality price points anyway without help investing in new infrastructure.

erw300zx

03-27-09, 03:39 PM

Neither the component nor the display can improve upon the data that's on the disc. Upcoverting players are doing the same thing that a TV does internally (enlarging the picture), but sometimes the player simply does a better job. Often the display will actually do a better job, it really depends.

That is not what it says on OPPO's site, regarding their upconverting players, and I quote with my emphasis in red:

"...the Standard Definition DVD video must then be scaled (or "upconverted") to the higher resolution of the HD display. ... In order to produce an HD video signal suitable to be displayed on an HDTV with the higher resolution and best picture quality, an upconverting DVD player must scale up the video frames.

Scaling involves creating new pixels by selectively copying pieces of the surrounding pixels using various mathematical techniques to interpolate what the video signal would look like at a different resolution. ... The scaled-up video is rich in detail, with little or no visible artifacts introduced by the upconversion process."

So that is why I'm confused. I believed scaling or upconverting to be the addition of lines of resolution. And this is what OPPO says its DVD players do. This is also what the Tech guy at OPPO said the Pioneer display did, and did better than the Panasonic. But the Pioneer Tech guy said no Pioneer does the upconverting type of scaling. And you guys seem to concur in your replies, yet past threads that I read here all talk about the benefits and better lines of resolution when performed by various components and displays.

chrisherbert

03-27-09, 04:04 PM

That is not what it says on OPPO's site, regarding their upconverting players, and I quote with my emphasis in red:

"...the Standard Definition DVD video must then be scaled (or "upconverted") to the higher resolution of the HD display. ... In order to produce an HD video signal suitable to be displayed on an HDTV with the higher resolution and best picture quality, an upconverting DVD player must scale up the video frames.

Scaling involves creating new pixels by selectively copying pieces of the surrounding pixels using various mathematical techniques to interpolate what the video signal would look like at a different resolution. ... The scaled-up video is rich in detail, with little or no visible artifacts introduced by the upconversion process."

So that is why I'm confused. I believed scaling or upconverting to be the addition of lines of resolution. And this is what OPPO says its DVD players do. This is also what the Tech guy at OPPO said the Pioneer display did, and did better than the Panasonic. But the Pioneer Tech guy said no Pioneer does the upconverting type of scaling. And you guys seem to concur in your replies, yet past threads that I read here all talk about the benefits and better lines of resolution when performed by various components and displays.

Scaling, enlarging, upconverting and interpolating are all different terms for the same thing. Yes, "new pixels" are created. No actual new detail is added. The Oppo is doing exactly the same thing that the Pioneer would do if you sent it the original pure 480i signal. The scaler/deinterlacer in Oppo just does a slightly better job than the one in the Pioneer (and the difference will be SLIGHT, probably not even noticeable).

The Pioneer guy is either very wrong or maybe didn't understand your question. EVERY fixed pixel display has a scaler/upconverter/interpolator/enlarger built in. The older ones tended to be pretty bad. The new ones tend to be quite good. If they didn't have this ability at all, signals that didn't exactly match the display's native resolution wouldn't fill the screen.

erw300zx

03-27-09, 05:14 PM

Well no matter what they call it, scaling, enlarging, upconverting or whatever, I'm going to go get the 5020FD this weekend. I'll let you know what I think of how it handles various signal sources. I'd love to splurge and get the 6020FD, because I think the difference in size REALLY makes a difference, but the over two grand addition in price is a little tough to take.

I did read one review just now from someone who said the only regret in getting a "big" TV was not getting one even bigger...

progprog

03-27-09, 05:20 PM

This still leaves me puzzled as to why there is always the question about if one should use the "scaler" in the display device or in the Playstation/DVD/etc. It seems to indicate that the display device is NEVER going to be better than the component creating the signal, since all the display can do is enlarge the picture, and never improve it.

As chrisherbert noted, the terminology can get confusing, but the processing that's taking place is the same. The reason the question always comes up about which scaler to use is because they can vary so much in how well they do the job. First, note that any fixed pixel display MUST scale any incoing signal to its native resolution. So, with the Kuros, for example, which have a native resolution of 1080p (1920x1080), everything coming in that isn't already at that resolution will by upscaled to 1920x1080 progressive.

Here's a way to think of upscaling, or "enlarging" the picture. Think of one of those big scoreboards at a ballpark.....the ones made up of a grid of little lightbulbs. Let's say the board has 100 bulbs across and 100 bulbs down, and it needs to display, say, the Yankees logo:http://www.tcnj.edu/%7Edimakos2/YankeesLogo.gif

You can imagine how that 100x100 grid will have lots of jaggies trying to convey all the curves and non-vertical, non-horizontal lines in this image. Now assume this image, with all its imperfections, is your original source, but now you get to display it on a board that has 500x500 bulbs. Same size board, just smaller bulbs. Some little computer program tries to "guess" what the curves should look (without jaggies) and projects that onto the finer-resolution board. How good it looks depends on how well that program accomplishes this task.
In our HT gear, the quality of a component's upscaling depends on how well the it "fills in the gaps" and smooths the jaggies inherent in taking a 480i image and projecting it onto a 1920x1080 grid. CE manufacturers' put a lot of research into developing proprietary algorithms that they hope work better than any body else's. Traditionally, TVs themselves were not especially good at this task, leaving it to DVD players and external processors. The Kuros, however, are known to do the job very well.

Any upscaling DVD, HD-DVD, or Blu-Ray player will have its own approach to this task. Some look good, some do it so well they really do improve upon the SD image to the point that it almost looks like HD.

So, going back to your question. (;)) Each person really has to compare the upscaling capabilities of each of their own components to see which one does the best job in their system. In my case, I have three BD players (incl a PS3), two HD-DVD players, two Kuros, and two DVD players, all of which can upscale a 480i DVD. I have found that my Oppo DV-983H DVD player is the best upscaler amongst my equipment, but I only know this after extensive comparison testing.

One final note: the smaller 5020 will probably look better than the 6020 in the sense that it has the same number of pixels, only smaller. We all like our TVs as big as we can get them, but there is a little bit of a trade off. ;)

JazzGuyy

03-27-09, 06:19 PM

That is not what it says on OPPO's site, regarding their upconverting players, and I quote with my emphasis in red:

"...the Standard Definition DVD video must then be scaled (or "upconverted") to the higher resolution of the HD display. ... In order to produce an HD video signal suitable to be displayed on an HDTV with the higher resolution and best picture quality, an upconverting DVD player must scale up the video frames.

Scaling involves creating new pixels by selectively copying pieces of the surrounding pixels using various mathematical techniques to interpolate what the video signal would look like at a different resolution. ... The scaled-up video is rich in detail, with little or no visible artifacts introduced by the upconversion process."

So that is why I'm confused. I believed scaling or upconverting to be the addition of lines of resolution. And this is what OPPO says its DVD players do. This is also what the Tech guy at OPPO said the Pioneer display did, and did better than the Panasonic. But the Pioneer Tech guy said no Pioneer does the upconverting type of scaling. And you guys seem to concur in your replies, yet past threads that I read here all talk about the benefits and better lines of resolution when performed by various components and displays.

Sorry if I confused you but I did say the set upscales the picture to its native resolution. The problem is that if the incoming source doesn't have enough information to allow the software to do a good job of guessing (i.e., interpolating data), then you won't get great results. That is the problem with the LD source. It is missing too much information relative to, say, a standard DVD which starts off with digitally encoded data, almost always incluedes imbedded flags which provide information about how to interlace it, and also may have anamorphic squeezing. All of that is missing on an LD and the rescaling software just can't do a very good job.

Clint S.

03-28-09, 07:56 AM

Any upscaling DVD, HD-DVD, or Blu-Ray player will have its own approach to this task. Some look good, some do it so well they really do improve upon the SD image to the point that it almost looks like HD.

So, going back to your question. (;)) Each person really has to compare the upscaling capabilities of each of their own components to see which one does the best job in their system. In my case, I have three BD players (incl a PS3), two HD-DVD players, two Kuros, and two DVD players, all of which can upscale a 480i DVD. I have found that my Oppo DV-983H DVD player is the best upscaler amongst my equipment, but I only know this after extensive comparison testing.
I don't remember if it was this thread, but a while back I asked this and never got a reply: Do you know how the Pioneer BDP-51FD compares to the 983H regarding upscaling? Thanks.

One final note: the smaller 5020 will probably look better than the 6020 in the sense that it has the same number of pixels, only smaller. We all like our TVs as big as we can get them, but there is a little bit of a trade off. ;)
That's what I keep telling people that say "bigger is better". The only time that's the case is if the TV is going in a huge room and you're going to be a large distance away from it, then you can benefit from 60"+ TV without the trade-off. 1920 x 1080 is 1920 x 1080. That's a fixed finite amount of pixels, regardless of screen size. Therefore those pixels on a smaller screen size will be smaller and therefore capable of delivering a more detailed, clearer cleaner sharper image....as seen from a closer distance. If one has a huge media room and is going to be ~20' away from the TV, then you won't notice this and larger of course is the way to go.

(For those that don't follow this), It's like enlarging a photo. You start off with a given amount of data (pixels) and that's not going to change. The enlarged photo will not be as sharp and will appear a bit blurry, not as clear, not as detailed as the original. Because, the data (pixels) themselves have been enlarged. Being a photographer, I saw this all the time, and still do when having to enlarge given images for my websites.

I use IrfanView a lot (image manipulating program). Anyone can see this by dragging a 320x240 or so image to its shortcut, and doing it twice so the image is open in the program two times. Enlarge one of the images to something like 640x480 or larger. Now compare them. Even if you use the re-sampling method (any of the re-sampling filter methods), the larger image looks worse. If you don't use re-sampling, the larger image looks hideous, even worse with very jagged angled lines, that's lines that are not vertical or horizontal.

I would guess an upscaler in a TV or DVD player may use something sort of like this 're-sampling' so the larger image will look better.? And like image editing programs, each TV or DVD player may use different "re-sampling filters", some cheap ones may use none at all.(?)

Look at these images. Using the same NY logo, look at the original.

http://www.tcnj.edu/%7Edimakos2/YankeesLogo.gif

Now look at it enlarged (using re-sampling filters) here:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2e5s1u0.png
As you can see, it's not as sharp or clear as the original. Obviously (or so I think obviously), because the original pixel data of 238 x 262 (62,356 pixels) has been enlarged to 348 x 383 (i.e., larger screen TV).

Now look at it at the same size not using any re-sampling:

http://i44.tinypic.com/20fxevn.png

As you can see, it's even worse with the no aliasing and jagged lines (i.e., poor upscaler?) A different image, like one you'd more likely see on a TV screen, would be even more obvious.

erw300zx

03-31-09, 01:07 PM

Well I got my PDP-5020FD yesterday, set it up, and plugged everything in that I could. The panel is definitely well made, and it is a very classy looking design. The best looking panel of all of them I think. The menus are very nice, and the remote seems good too, I just wish it lit up.

As for the picture quality:
I hooked up the SD Tivo via composite, the Laserdisc via S-Video and regular old SD cable TV via the coax. I also hooked up the SD DVD player via component and set the DVD player to 480p.

Regular SD cable looks rough, as you'd expect, and the Tivo's digital recording of it doesn't help things. I'm going to try hooking up an antenna so that I can see over the air digital broadcasts.

The Laserdisc player looks pretty good. It's a CLD-99, which was one of the best of that era. I think Laserdisc probably looks better on this TV than I've ever seen anywhere. A little less tightly detailed, but satisfying to watch.

The DVD on 480p was a disappointment. There were various video processing artifacts, for example on the opening scroll of "Revenge of the Sith", the words looked like they were rolling over a corrugated surface, like waves, instead of being flat.

On "Iron Man" in the scene where Pepper comes down to the garage and Downey is working on his Bucket-T hot rod's engine, there is a shot where you see scanning lines causing jaggedness. I saw this in other places as well.

On "Starship Troopers", the picture appeared "processed" and not as tightly detailed as I'd expect.

I've seen 480p before and expected it to look far smoother on this TV. I'm thinking my wife's older DVD player may not be up to the level of the set.

I'm going to try to get a new DVD player as soon as possible so that I can see what 1080p looks like.

Digital pictures off the USB thumbdrive looked great.

I'm going to try to hook up the LAN to see what other media looks like.

Colors on the set are pretty amazing. Contrast is very strong. I couldn't see individual pixels or grain which I was concerned with on a panel this big. I didn't look for any dead or stuck pixels, since I just don't want to know!

I used "Standard" and turned the contrast down a lot to avoid burn in during these first hours, and also since the set seems to be very bright to me. I have it on "Home" mode not "Retail" of course. I noticed that there was also some setting for saving energy and it said that the "off" setting made the display the brightest, I assume most of you use one of the other two settings both to save energy and to avoid burn in.

I never had a source that took up the entire panel's screen without setting the TV to "Zoom" or other option. Are 1080p the only sources that will fill up the entire screen without hitting "Zoom"? Or is it more random, and simply depends on the aspect ratio that the movie was filmed in?

Thanks everybody for your help!

Clint S.

03-31-09, 01:26 PM

I never had a source that took up the entire panel's screen without setting the TV to "Zoom" or other option. Are 1080p the only sources that will fill up the entire screen without hitting "Zoom"? Or is it more random, and simply depends on the aspect ratio that the movie was filmed in?
It won't look good to you until you look at real HD content. SD sucks on the Kuro (but it is better than some). I don't know if there is a 480 HD source, but you can get full 16:9 HD in 720. Some networks only broadcast HD in 720.

prepress

03-31-09, 03:41 PM

It won't look good to you until you look at real HD content. SD sucks on the Kuro (but it is better than some). I don't know if there is a 480 HD source, but you can get full 16:9 HD in 720. Some networks only broadcast HD in 720.

Also, digital SD usually looks better than analog SD. I can attest to that.

BTR

03-31-09, 04:34 PM

I know this question is wayyyyy off topic but I'm picking my TV up tonight, how do I go about transporting it home? I'm assuming I cannot lay it on its side correct?

xortam

03-31-09, 06:06 PM

… Regular SD cable looks rough, as you'd expect, and the Tivo's digital recording of it doesn't help things. I'm going to try hooking up an antenna so that I can see over the air digital broadcasts.

Probably a lot of that has to do with an inferior source of SD. My big dish satellite SD looks pretty good on my 141 given the constraints of NTSC signals.

… The Laserdisc player looks pretty good. It's a CLD-99, which was one of the best of that era. I think Laserdisc probably looks better on this TV than I've ever seen anywhere. A little less tightly detailed, but satisfying to watch.
Wish my experience matched that. I briefly tried LD using my old Pioneer LD-W1 and it looked pretty bad. The player is probably considered an early to mid-generation player and only supports composite out (though it’s unique in that it’s a dual platter unit). I also think I may have gotten LD rot but I need to clean off the discs to be sure (one disc picked up residue from the paper/plastic sleeve). The “Pork lips now” disc looked physically clean (was in a ‘plastic’ sleeve (acetate?) but still looked disappointing. I need to try some more discs sometime.

… The DVD on 480p was a disappointment. There were various video processing artifacts …

Try to set your player to output 480i and let the Kuro do all the processing. I saw a big improvement there vs. using my Panasonic DVDR at 480p.

TheBrandon

03-31-09, 06:15 PM

I know this question is wayyyyy off topic but I'm picking my TV up tonight, how do I go about transporting it home? I'm assuming I cannot lay it on its side correct?

I had to lay mine down but you are supposed to leave it standing. I just made sure the panel was facing up and took it home.

You are about to be floored! :D

erw300zx

03-31-09, 07:55 PM

I know this question is wayyyyy off topic but I'm picking my TV up tonight, how do I go about transporting it home? I'm assuming I cannot lay it on its side correct?

I literally went through this just this week. All over the packaging for my 50" plasma it says to only transport it vertically, (don't lay it down).

The inside packaging and the box are made to support it standing up. If you lay it down, then the packaging is not supporting it the same way, there is nothing in the middle of the set to support the glass - only the corners are supported.

You could transport it laying on it's side if and only if you are extremely careful and don't hit any bumps on the way home. I wouldn't want to risk that.

I had free shipping from Best Buy, and those guys cut the cardboard to inspect the screen before they brought it out to my house, obviously they didn't want to be responsible for a set that was damaged before they even got it to their truck.

prepress

04-01-09, 06:04 AM

Probably a lot of that has to do with an inferior source of SD. My big dish satellite SD looks pretty good on my 141 given the constraints of NTSC signals.

Wish my experience matched that. I briefly tried LD using my old Pioneer LD-W1 and it looked pretty bad. The player is probably considered an early to mid-generation player and only supports composite out (though it’s unique in that it’s a dual platter unit). I also think I may have gotten LD rot but I need to clean off the discs to be sure (one disc picked up residue from the paper/plastic sleeve). The “Pork lips now” disc looked physically clean (was in a ‘plastic’ sleeve (acetate?) but still looked disappointing. I need to try some more discs sometime.

Try to set your player to output 480i and let the Kuro do all the processing. I saw a big improvement there vs. using my Panasonic DVDR at 480p.

As for laserdiscs, resolution improves with 4:3 material if watched at 4:3. I have a DVL-91. The Kuro did a great job with them; they look a bit better going through my Edge, however.

gwsat

04-01-09, 09:15 AM

My big dish satellite SD looks pretty good on my 141 given the constraints of NTSC signals.

Wish my experience matched that. I briefly tried LD using my old Pioneer LD-W1 and it looked pretty bad. The player is probably considered an early to mid-generation player and only supports composite out (though it’s unique in that it’s a dual platter unit).

Try to set your player to output 480i and let the Kuro do all the processing. I saw a big improvement there vs. using my Panasonic DVDR at 480p.
You and I have had a lot of similar gear. I installed a C-band dish in the mid '80s and used it for about 15 years before shifting to cable. I finally got around to having the old 10' dish removed from my yard last year. I think I made my neighbors very happy. :)

I also have an old Pioneer LD-W1. It came as no surprise to hear that yours looks as bad on your Kuro as it you say it does. After all, composite video is pretty limited, compared even to S-video. The LD-W1's two disc feature is pretty neat, though. I have never tried to setup mine with my 6020 and, based on your report, may not even try. Still, I have a lot of stuff on LD that I loved and it would be fun to see some of it again.

Juan

04-01-09, 11:48 AM

I know this question is wayyyyy off topic but I'm picking my TV up tonight, how do I go about transporting it home? I'm assuming I cannot lay it on its side correct?

Find a friend with a truck, if you get the set home and the glass is cracked, they will not take it back. I would even check the glass before leaving the store because if they don't deliver it, then they are not liable for anything once you pick it up.

xortam

04-01-09, 03:17 PM

As for laserdiscs, resolution improves with 4:3 material if watched at 4:3. I have a DVL-91. The Kuro did a great job with them; they look a bit better going through my Edge, however.
I watch all my NTSC in OAR on my 141. I only switch between 4:3 and Cinema modes depending on the presence of letterboxing. The resolution just isn’t there for great viewing on a 60” HD display. I’ve been reading the Edge thread for awhile but I’m not convinced it will do much for my BUD viewing. I’ve got too much other content to watch to bother re-watching many of my LDs.

xortam

04-01-09, 03:26 PM

You and I have had a lot of similar gear. I installed a C-band dish in the mid '80s and used it for about 15 years before shifting to cable. I finally got around to having the old 10' dish removed from my yard last year. I think I made my neighbors very happy. :)

I also have an old Pioneer LD-W1. It came as no surprise to hear that yours looks as bad on your Kuro as it you say it does. After all, composite video is pretty limited, compared even to S-video. The LD-W1's two disc feature is pretty neat, though. I have never tried to setup mine with my 6020 and, based on your report, may not even try. Still, I have a lot of stuff on LD that I loved and it would be fun to see some of it again.

I went the other way, cable to BUD, and never looked back. I would hate to ever have to go back to cable. I just started looking at ATT U-Verse (initially just as an ISP) and that may be a possibility in order to get more premium HD content (BUD is very limited in HD offerings though the quality is fantastic).

I’ve never heard from anyone else owning the LD-W1 and it appears it was a fairly rare product (even rarer to have one that worked for an extended period of time). I wasn’t expecting much from the LDP and I mainly hooked it up at the bequest of a Pioneer champion trying to re-live the past. Too bad about the viewing experience because I’ve got a number of LDs in pristine condition (disregarding the disk in which I didn’t replace the paper/plastic sleeve with an acetate sleeve).

prepress

04-01-09, 05:54 PM

I watch all my NTSC in OAR on my 141. I only switch between 4:3 and Cinema modes depending on the presence of letterboxing. The resolution just isn’t there for great viewing on a 60” HD display. I’ve been reading the Edge thread for awhile but I’m not convinced it will do much for my BUD viewing. I’ve got too much other content to watch to bother re-watching many of my LDs.

Of course, anything 4:3 looks better in OAR, not just laserdiscs.

progprog

04-01-09, 06:01 PM

I know this question is wayyyyy off topic but I'm picking my TV up tonight, how do I go about transporting it home? I'm assuming I cannot lay it on its side correct?

I've transported mine both upright and lying on their sides. I didn't have to go far, I was careful, and they turned out just fine. No cracks. :)

erw300zx

04-01-09, 11:24 PM

I have another observation about the picture quality, or maybe the display technology of the Pioneer Plasma.

I noticed as soon as I started watching it at home that if you move your eyes quickly, you'll see flashes of yellowish green around any very bright areas displayed on the screen. I noticed this in the store during a black and white section of video.

Now I thought that only LCD projection had this type of problem. I've never noticed it on Plasma before, but then again I've never owned a plasma before.

It is consistently noticeable to me, all I have to do is dart back and forth with my eyes.

I thought Plasma was very quick to react and didn't have any of these issues...

JimP

04-01-09, 11:50 PM

erw300zx

04-02-09, 12:18 AM

erw300zx,

I experience the same with my 7g 6070.

This is similar to DLPs and is usually referred to as rainbow effect.

I just had to get use to not darting my eyes around.

If you want weird entertainment, watch a B&W action movie on it. Those streaks are everywhere.

Wonderful. This is news to me, I didn't think Plasma displays would have those streaks. I find it so annoying that I'm honestly thinking about returning the 5020.

So what types of displays, other than old style tubes, DON'T have this problem?

JazzGuyy

04-02-09, 06:41 AM

Wonderful. This is news to me, I didn't think Plasma displays would have those streaks. I find it so annoying that I'm honestly thinking about returning the 5020.

So what types of displays, other than old style tubes, DON'T have this problem?

There have been numerous postings about this. Do a search for "phosphor trails". Like the rainbow effect, some people see it but most don't. Some people are extremely sensitive to it. With the Pioneers at least, the incidence seems to go down somewhat as the set ages.

erw300zx

04-02-09, 12:44 PM

There have been numerous postings about this. Do a search for "phosphor trails". Like the rainbow effect, some people see it but most don't. Some people are extremely sensitive to it. With the Pioneers at least, the incidence seems to go down somewhat as the set ages.

Thanks for the reference. I looked that up, and found examples on youtube showing the phosphor trails.

What I'm talking about is more due to MY eye motion. Not the movement of the picture. I could probably make this happen with a still image, just by darting my eyes back and forth. It is very much like what they describe as phosphor trails, where there is a yellow or greenish flash during bright white images against black. It is almost as though darting my eyes allows me to see some strobing that is going on.

chrisherbert

04-02-09, 03:08 PM

Thanks for the reference. I looked that up, and found examples on youtube showing the phosphor trails.

What I'm talking about is more due to MY eye motion. Not the movement of the picture. I could probably make this happen with a still image, just by darting my eyes back and forth. It is very much like what they describe as phosphor trails, where there is a yellow or greenish flash during bright white images against black. It is almost as though darting my eyes allows me to see some strobing that is going on.

It's the same thing whether you see it from darting your eyes around or from motion on screen. Frankly I think you'll get used to it shortly, especially once you stop actively looking for it.

CRTs actually do have a little bit of this effect. The only displays that do not are LCDs, though they have their own motion problems (which are far more serious than trails, IMO).

erw300zx

04-03-09, 02:37 PM

It's the same thing whether you see it from darting your eyes around or from motion on screen. Frankly I think you'll get used to it shortly, especially once you stop actively looking for it.

CRTs actually do have a little bit of this effect. The only displays that do not are LCDs, though they have their own motion problems (which are far more serious than trails, IMO).

Yes, I never see it on CRTs or on the LCD computer monitors that I use. It's very obvious on the Pioneer, which is unfortunate.

It can't be the same thing, since in one case the TV is displaying a still image and my eyes are doing the moving. Unless the technology the TV uses to display that bright region is in some way refreshing the screen with a number of colors, and moving my eyes suddenly causes that refresh to be revealed.

chrisherbert

04-03-09, 03:03 PM

Yes, I never see it on CRTs or on the LCD computer monitors that I use. It's very obvious on the Pioneer, which is unfortunate.

It can't be the same thing, since in one case the TV is displaying a still image and my eyes are doing the moving. Unless the technology the TV uses to display that bright region is in some way refreshing the screen with a number of colors, and moving my eyes suddenly causes that refresh to be revealed.

Because of the way plasmas work, the TV is constantly refreshing the screen (as a CRT would do, though the plasma method is radically different). LCDs output is constant and doesn't flicker in any meaningful sense. This is also the reason that LCDs have poor motion quality and need to use horrible tricks like interpolation to reduce blur.

sandman123

04-03-09, 03:15 PM

xortam

04-03-09, 03:18 PM

Because of the way plasmas work, the TV is constantly refreshing the screen (as a CRT would do, though the plasma method is radically different). LCDs output is constant and doesn't flicker in any meaningful sense. This is also the reason that LCDs have poor motion quality and need to use horrible tricks like interpolation to reduce blur.

One of the main things I like about phosphor based direct views is that the phosphor persistence takes away some of that digital look you get with other technologies. Plasmas have a smoother film-like look to me.

ccotenj

04-03-09, 03:23 PM

Hello all,

Can the 151 get as bright as the 111.

Looking at both in magnolia, it seemed the 111 in (both in sport mode) got brighter and 'looked' more contrasty.

My room is fairly bright and i watch during the day so, i'm not sure if the 151 can look as good as 111. Of course size wise i would prefer the 151.

Thanks

technically speaking, the 111 would be "brighter" and "more contrasty" if all settings were equal, etc.

but "can" the 151 get as bright? well... it'll get as bright as you want/need it to... i suppose if you maxed both sets out, it wouldn't get as bright as the 111, but then again, neither would be particularly watchable like that...

go for the 151... the extra screen real estate cannot be overstated... 60 is a LOT bigger than 50...

chrisherbert

04-03-09, 03:35 PM

One of the main things I like about phosphor based direct views is that the phosphor persistence takes away some of that digital look you get with other technologies. Plasmas have a smoother film-like look to me.

Yes, although I think that the more more apparent dither on a plasma can also give plasmas a "digital" appearance. LCDs have a rock-solid (and blurry unfortunately) look.

sandman123

04-03-09, 04:06 PM

ccotenj,

Thanks for the reply. As for being watchable at the highest setting, actually i did have both sets set to 'sport mode' (supposedly as bright as ISF day?? i assume) and they were very watchable to me. In the bright store enviorment, much like my living room, i found that much more pleasing than pure mode. So i definelty find the brighter settings watchable. Do you know if sport mode is as bright as ISF day? I realize colors and many other aspect are better in ISF day, but on a brightness only viewpoint just to get an idea is spot mode get up to 50 - 55 FL like ISF day?

The other slight downside i see with the 151 is it actually make me dizzy watching some movies because of the rapid scene changes and general 'shaky' ways new movies are filmed. This effect is ofcourse less on the 111 just because of size.

Thanks

xortam

04-03-09, 04:33 PM

... The other slight downside i see with the 151 is it actually make me dizzy watching some movies because of the rapid scene changes and general 'shaky' ways new movies are filmed. This effect is ofcourse less on the 111 just because of size.

Thanks

I noticed this too after I got my 141 last fall. I don' recall feeling that way recently though. I guess you adjust to it after awhile.

ccotenj

04-03-09, 05:50 PM

In the bright store enviorment, much like my living room,

the lighting in your living room is like the lighting in a big box store? :eek:

no, i didn't mean the "mode", i meant the settings in each mode...

sandman123

04-03-09, 06:10 PM

Well not exactey ofcourse, but i just mean it's pretty bright during the day.

ccotenj

04-03-09, 07:15 PM

Well not exactey ofcourse, but i just mean it's pretty bright during the day.

"pretty bright during the day" isn't analogous to "big box store flourescent lighting"...

how bright it can get, i don't know, i don't get into the "numbers" game, that's the calibrator's job... part of it is what you are expecting to see... i know one thing... right out of the box, the 111fd, running in pure with default settings except with the contrast turned down a bit to give it a chance to settle some is plenty "bright" in a room that gets a ton of ambient light... i fully expect this set to be incredible once it is calibrated...

and fwiw, even though it's an 8g, the 150fd on isf-day is MORE than plenty bright in another room that gets a ton of ambient light...

perceived "brightness" in the store, on sets that the settings have probably messed with, and a bunch of big fluorescent lights over your head really has no relevance to what the set is going to look like in your home...

y'know, pioneer might have had a chance to survive in the plasma business if more people had gotten to see them in a home environment... :(

prepress

04-04-09, 06:17 AM

I noticed this too after I got my 141 last fall. I don' recall feeling that way recently though. I guess you adjust to it after awhile.

Also, in some cases having a cold affects your inner ear because of the proximity to the sinuses, which can pressure it, hence balance is affected, meaning headaches, dizziness and even nausea. This happened to me; it was worse with material having lots of pans and zooms (even slow ones). I have a 111 and am 10.5" away.

erw300zx

04-04-09, 06:07 PM

Okay, I could use some help I guess. I just got the PDP-5020FD last week, and I want to try Digital Over the Air. The 5020 has a tuner in it for both Analog and Digital channels, right?

So I made an antenna and put it outside the window and got no channels on the 5020. Then I tried using a Channel Master digital to analog box and got TWENTY channels with the same antenna set up the same way. So I switched the antenna back to the 5020 and tried to scan for digital channels again, and again got nothing, 0, on the 5020.

What am I doing wrong? Is the Channel Master CM-7000 so much better than the Pioneer's built in digital tuner???

The basic procedure I'm following is this:
1) Hook up my homemade antenna to the coaxial ANT input on the back of the 5020.
2) Press the TV/DTV button to get to Digital channels, it then tells me something about being an invalid command because there are no channels in the table.
3) I have set Air/Cable to "Air" under the Auto Installation under System Setup.
4) I go into the System Setup, and then Digital Tuner Setup, and then Installation, I move down to Add New Channels, and when I select that, it scans for a long time, the progress bar moves, and the total of "Existing Channels" and "Channels Found" never changes from 0.

I would say that my antenna is no good, except I get 20 channels from the Channel Master tuner.

What am I doing wrong?!

sandman123

04-05-09, 04:29 AM

Clint S.

04-05-09, 06:24 AM

ccotenj

04-05-09, 07:42 AM

ccotenj,

Yeah i went back today and you know the 151 looked pretty dam good!

Now i just have this issue about size, and dizziness.

Perhaps i'll get used to it as people say. I'll be sitting 9-10 feet away, but the tv will be 3 or so above eye level because of kids. In the store at 8 feet away and eye level the 111 looked good, and the 151 felt big when watching full screen. But watching 2:35 movies wasn't too bad on 151.

I guess i could go either way, but if i really don't get used to the larger size, then that would be bad. the 111 i could always put on a wall mount that moves it 2 feet closer for a total of 7-8 feet away and it would look bigger. BUt of course a part of me still wants the biggest one there is since it wil be gone, but then i'm worried if i can't get used to it then what.

Thanks

well... a few things...

- for me, 3 feet above viewing level would be very hard. i'd feel like i was looking "up" all the time. but i understand that there's limitations imposed by "real life" that don't always allow the ideal placement of things.

- i can't comment on the "dizziness", since i didn't experience it. however, if you are, it would be a major "minus" for the bigger set.

- it's not like the 111 is "small". and as big as they look in the store, they will look even bigger in your house (although, amazingly enough, they shrink all on their own the longer you have it). and it's a great display. if you do go in that direction, you won't be disappointed, as long as you buy it and don't obsess that you should have gotten something else.

you have to go with what is best for you. what's "best" for me and others, may not be best for you.

good luck. but whatever you do, after you make the purchase, don't look back. buy it and be happy with it.

sandman123

04-05-09, 10:40 AM

ccotenj,

Thanks for the sage advice. Yea you nailed it on the head, i guess a lot of us videophile types are obsessive, and i really have to try hard to stop myself feeling guilty for even contemplating spending so much on a tv. I will try to follow your advice.

AS for placement i would definetly like to place it at eye level. Looking up is not comfortable at all, but i have a 5 and 3 yr old running around, and it wouln't take much for something to happen. Whether it's fingerprints, or much worse.

At eye level the 111 is not bad at all. I was even contemplating building a mount that would allow up and down motion of the tv. I've never seen one have you? That way i could pull it down when kids are settled and can be kept an eye on, and then put it back up when wer're done. I don't know, just a thought.

Anyway thanks again for the advice. Boy i really wish they weren't going out of business either.

xortam

04-05-09, 12:27 PM

... Now i just have this issue about size, and dizziness.

Perhaps i'll get used to it as people say. I'll be sitting 9-10 feet away, but the tv will be 3 or so above eye level because of kids. In the store at 8 feet away and eye level the 111 looked good, and the 151 felt big when watching full screen. But watching 2:35 movies wasn't too bad on 151. ...

I don't recall the last time I felt dizzy watching my 141. I'm at that same distance (9 1/2') but my eye height is above the mid-line so the display is pretty low near the fireplace hearth. I haven't had any small children in the room yet and I'll probably erect some type of temporary barrier when they do visit. I could even sit closer if the furniture placement was comfortable there as I find about 8 to 8 1/2' to be idea for viewing. I also watch SD in OAR so you're losing a lot of screen real estate and a smaller screen would be a big disadvantage.

erw300zx

04-05-09, 06:29 PM

I'm not sure about all this, I use cable. But even on cable, it may take several attempts at scanning both analog and DTV channels. On mine it took even more tries to get the DTV channels.

The problem could be with your "homemade" antenna, and the CM-7000 might in some way "boost" the signal. So I would try and find a real HDTV antenna before coming to any conclusions about the TV. That would tell you a lot.

I'm finding it hard to believe that the $59 Channel Master's tuner is that much better than the 5020's.

I know that my "homemade" antenna is not very sophisticated, but I live less than 8 miles from the DTV broadcasters, in Center City Philadelphia. I should be able to get DTV with ANY antenna.

I found another thread that recommended unplugging the set to "reset" the firmware or something like that? The thread suggested that the TV's inability to see DTV channels had to do with the firmware being confused.

Unplugging so far had not worked.
Neither has re-scanning, which I've done so many times I've lost count. The TV can lock onto Over the Air Analog channels, just not Over the Air Digital.

Anybody have any other suggestions or tips? Has ANYBODY out there used the 5020 like this, to get Over the Air Digital?

Thanks!

webdrifter

04-05-09, 07:09 PM

Hey Guys,

There are so many posts in this sight it's hard finding specific things sometimes. So here's my situation, I've had a Samsung LN52A650 LCD for about two weeks, and like it pretty good, but not real happy with the blacks and some of the motion issues. I watched planet earth on DVD the other night, and it was pretty good but didn't blow me away. I got the LCD over the pioneer plasma partly because I game a lot, and partly because the BB salesman said they didn't have any more pioneer PDP-5020 units left. While talking to a BB sales person today at a different location I found that they had over 400 PDP-5020 units in their warehouse, and they could order me one. They also said I could get a Elite pro 111FD for $500 more than the 5020. I'm not made of money, but I could afford the extra money if the 111FD is that much better than the 5020. I don't plan on having a professional calibration, so I need the TV that I can get the best picture out of just using the settings available to me. As I mentioned before I do game a lot, but I'm also a very responsible person. So I would take every precaution to avoild IR. What would you expierenced plasma owners suggest?

Anfunny1980

04-05-09, 08:43 PM

I'm not rolling in dough either but $500 more for the elite is a no brainer if you can afford it. Five more bills gets you better picture control and left and right side mounted speakers that are better at simulating surround sound than the 5020's single bottom mounted speakers. Not to mention you get a two year warranty from Pioneer on the elite models instead of one.

Blk02

04-05-09, 11:03 PM

ROMAN O

04-05-09, 11:13 PM

erw300zx

04-06-09, 10:49 AM

I'm finding it hard to believe that the $59 Channel Master's tuner is that much better than the 5020's.

I know that my "homemade" antenna is not very sophisticated, but I live less than 8 miles from the DTV broadcasters, in Center City Philadelphia. I should be able to get DTV with ANY antenna.

Anybody have any other suggestions or tips? Has ANYBODY out there used the 5020 like this, to get Over the Air Digital?

Thanks!

Either nobody cares about this topic, or nobody has figured it out and so is missing out on incredibly clear over the air signals. But it turns out that adding Over the Air Digital channels is NOT done by the menu item that says "Add New Channels" under "Installation" under "Digital Tuner Setup".

It turns out that it's under "Auto Installation" under "Setup". And you have to wait until the scan for analog over the air is complete and then a scan for digital will be run.

I had been using the "Add New Channels" which always found zero new channels. It maybe the other "Add New Channels" will work AFTER "Auto Installation" has been used to find at least one channel.

So I got it to work, and now that I see over the air digital it is amazing. Also the "dot by dot" and "Wide2" options showed, which indicates that those channels were at least 1080i if not 1080p.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that even digital cable offers that, or if they do it's compressed to fit in a million other stations...

Johnla

04-06-09, 12:59 PM

So I got it to work, and now that I see over the air digital it is amazing. Also the "dot by dot" and "Wide2" options showed, which indicates that those channels were at least 1080i if not 1080p.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that even digital cable offers that, or if they do it's compressed to fit in a million other stations...

Over the air is not 1080p! Depending upon which network it is broadcasting in HD, it's either 720p or 1080i.

erw300zx

04-06-09, 01:32 PM

Over the air is not 1080p! Depending upon which network it is broadcasting in HD, it's either 720p or 1080i.

I said at least 1080i. Is there any way to get the Pioneer to display the resolution? So far I haven't found any indicator other than "HD" displayed in the corner and the screen size options changing.

hd_axel

04-06-09, 01:40 PM

But it turns out that adding Over the Air Digital channels is NOT done by the menu item that says "Add New Channels" under "Installation" under "Digital Tuner Setup".

It turns out that it's under "Auto Installation" under "Setup". And you have to wait until the scan for analog over the air is complete and then a scan for digital will be run.

This routine is typical for just about all current model TV's with a built-in ATSC tuner(Digital Tuner). The "Add New Channels" option is for you to manually add a channel that the auto scan may have missed.

As far as 1080p, the only way to get that resolution is via. Blu-Ray or a HD-DVD player, period! OTA(Over The Air) broadcast is done in either 1080i or 720p, you will NOT get 1080p OTA unless the FCC changes that in the future, which won't be for quite some time due to the bandwidth size for 1080p content, it's huge!

hd_axel

04-06-09, 01:59 PM

I have been to the local Best Buy and looked at the Panasonic 58PZ850U, Samsung LN52A750, and Pioneer PRO111FD. I can get any of these at the same price giving or taking about $200.00. When looking at the Pioneer PRO111FD the whites seem to be greyed out. Even looking at the whole screen it seems to have a black tint to it compared to the Panasonic plasma's or the Samsung LCD's.

Is this black tint just a setting on the Pioneer or is it native to the display??

What do you think about using this TV with a HTPC to play Bluray, HD-DVD, and surf the internet??

What do you think about using this TV to game with a Xbox 360??
Should be okay, just be careful with static images that may leave some IR, but the orbiter should resove that.

Would the 50 inch version be suitable for a 9ft viewing distance??

Are there any aspect ratio problems or 1:1 pixel mapping problems with a HTPC and this TV??

"When looking at the Pioneer PRO111FD the whites seem to be greyed out."
Don't go by what the store has it set at, because it is most likely incorrect. Of all the models you mentioned, I would recommend the Pioneer PRO111FD hands down over the others, especially with the calibration abilities it has!

"What do you think about using this TV to game with a Xbox 360??"
It should be fine, just be careful with static images in one place for 24 hours, otherwise you will have some IR.

"Would the 50 inch version be suitable for a 9ft viewing distance??"
That would be perfect. A general rule of thumb is to take your diagonal screen size, multiply by two, that should give you the optimal distance for viewing in your "Sweet Spot"!:D

Example: A 60" TV would be 60" X 2= 120", 120"=12 feet for your optimal viewing distance!

Not sure what htpc is??

erw300zx

04-06-09, 02:00 PM

This routine is typical for just about all current model TV's with a built-in ATSC tuner(Digital Tuner). The "Add New Channels" option is for you to manually add a channel that the auto scan may have missed.

As far as 1080p, the only way to get that resolution is via. Blu-Ray or a HD-DVD player, period! OTA(Over The Air) broadcast is done in either 1080i or 720p, you will NOT get 1080p OTA unless the FCC changes that in the future, which won't be for quite some time due to the bandwidth size for 1080p content, it's huge!

Okay so do you know how to get the Pioneer to display what the current channel's resolution is? The Channel Master external tuner box that I have displays that information, the Pioneer so far only seems to say "HD" in the upper right corner. No actual resolution info.

hd_axel

04-06-09, 02:09 PM

Okay so do you know how to get the Pioneer to display what the current channel's resolution is? The Channel Master external tuner box that I have displays that information, the Pioneer so far only seems to say "HD" in the upper right corner. No actual resolution info.

Most TV's don't have that capability on their sets nor in the GUI. That is broadcaster specific info. I recall seeing a listing somewhere that lists what stations broadcast at, but can't remember where I saw it... Sorry.

Fox is 720p, PBS is 1080i, I think NBC is 1080i and CBS may be 720p etc. just to name a few. A quick way to get the info you seek would be to use your Channel Master as a cheat-sheet and write down the resolutions for your self...;)

The "HD" in the upper right corner, is telling you that you are on a high definition input of your TV!

xortam

04-06-09, 03:35 PM

... As far as 1080p, the only way to get that resolution is via. Blu-Ray or a HD-DVD player, period! OTA(Over The Air) broadcast is done in either 1080i or 720p, you will NOT get 1080p OTA unless the FCC changes that in the future, which won't be for quite some time due to the bandwidth size for 1080p content, it's huge!

ATSC doesn't support 1080p. You can get some 1080p content via broadband through various sources.

Most TV's don't have that capability on their sets nor in the GUI. That is broadcaster specific info. I recall seeing a listing somewhere that lists what stations broadcast at, but can't remember where I saw it... Sorry. ...

My PRO-141FD displays the input signal resolution (or simply NTSC as the case may be). You don't get that with your model? My external tuner also displays the broadcast channel resolution.

erw300zx

04-06-09, 03:57 PM

hd_axel

04-06-09, 03:57 PM

ATSC doesn't support 1080p. You can get some 1080p content via broadband through various sources.

My PRO-141FD displays the input signal resolution (or simply NTSC as the case may be). You don't get that with your model? My external tuner also displays the broadcast channel resolution.

"ATSC doesn't support 1080p."
Correct, That is what I said...

"You don't get that with your model?"
I am still waiting for my set to arrive, I've had several "Damaged Upon Delivery" issues, I don't know what it is capable yet, other than what I have been reading here.... I was making a general statement about TV's overall in not displaying the broadcasted resolution...

Why are you using an external tuner instead of the one in your set?

erw300zx

04-06-09, 04:02 PM

Most TV's don't have that capability on their sets nor in the GUI. That is broadcaster specific info. I recall seeing a listing somewhere that lists what stations broadcast at, but can't remember where I saw it... Sorry.

The "HD" in the upper right corner, is telling you that you are on a high definition input of your TV!

The post right after yours says their TV has the capability to display the resolution of the digital television signal. It obviously should, since it is the TV's tuner that is processing the signal.

The "HD" in the upper right corner is not telling you that you are on a high definition input of the TV. The input being used is the ANT input. The "HD" is describing the resolution.

When you are using other inputs, such as component, the TV will display the input number, type of input, and the resolution.

xortam

04-06-09, 04:25 PM

"ATSC doesn't support 1080p."
Correct, That is what I said...

… you will NOT get 1080p OTA unless the FCC changes that in the future, which won't be for quite some time due to the bandwidth size for 1080p content, it's huge!
The FCC would have to approve a new standard above ATSC and you know how long it took them to move beyond NTSC. One can only guess how long it might be before that takes place and the entire infrastructure changed to enable it. Higher bandwidth content beyond ATSC delivery may quite well never occur OTA.

… Why are you using an external tuner instead of the one in your set?
As I said, I have a PRO-141FD which is a pure monitor which doesn’t have a tuner. I use an HTPC (Home Theatre Personal Computer) with a MyHD card to record and playback HD ATSC. I’ve done this for a number of years and love it! The MyHD card delivers a superior picture even to that of the same recordings played back via a PS3.

chrisherbert

04-06-09, 04:47 PM

I think the ATSC standard actually does support 1080p signals, though not 1080p/60. 1080p/30 would not take any more bandwidth than a 1080i signal, and might actually be able to handle compression more gracefully.

Still, I doubt any channel will ever broadcast at 1080p OTA.

hd_axel

04-06-09, 04:55 PM

Still, I doubt any channel will ever broadcast at 1080p OTA.

Many TV buyers aren't aware of the 1080p limitations...

Other than some streaming of 1080p content here and there, the only way to see true 1080p is via. a Blu-Ray player or an HD-DVD player.

There is no 1080p resolution available by any Cable provider, or DirecTV or Dish Network or an Over The Air antenna.;)

hd_axel

04-06-09, 04:59 PM

The FCC would have to approve a new standard above ATSC and you know how long it took them to move beyond NTSC. One can only guess how long it might be before that takes place and the entire infrastructure changed to enable it. Higher bandwidth content beyond ATSC delivery may quite well never occur OTA.

True, I agree!

As I said, I have a PRO-141FD which is a pure monitor which doesn’t have a tuner. I use an HTPC (Home Theatre Personal Computer) with a MyHD card to record and playback HD ATSC. I’ve done this for a number of years and love it! The MyHD card delivers a superior picture even to that of the same recordings played back via a PS3.

My bad, makes sense now....:o

chrisherbert

04-08-09, 02:29 PM

Many TV buyers aren't aware of the 1080p limitations...

Other than some streaming of 1080p content here and there, the only way to see true 1080p is via. a Blu-Ray player or an HD-DVD player.

There is no 1080p resolution available by any Cable provider, or DirecTV or Dish Network or an Over The Air antenna.;)

Yes, although practically speaking, most of the stuff shown on 1080i HD channels can be deinterlaced to "true" 1080p. Only 60hz video material like sports, news, game shows, etc cannot.

enf1945

04-10-09, 09:18 PM

Hi ,
i went to BB and i saw the 5020 ( althoughthe tag said 111FD)
question - is the difference between the two just that the 111 has more tweak controls ? are those tweaks really necessary. I do like the real white for color temp but the store model
seems to have a white that isnt blueish which is great.

so whats the consensus; are those extra controls necessary ?

Doesnt seem to be a separate color brightness for blue to adjust it if i dont like it . unless i didnt see the control.
if there are speaker diferences i dont care wont be using them anyway.
ill remove them .
also i plan to use my DVD player for SD signals . i will use HDMI output 1080i (thats what my DVD player recoder can do). original source will be time warner cable HD box.
will that overcome the pioneer SD shortcomings ?
thanks

from a new member that hates artifacts and thinks 240hz on lcd's is a gimmick

scoddee

04-10-09, 10:46 PM

Clint S.

04-10-09, 11:33 PM

Hi ,
i went to BB and i saw the 5020 ( althoughthe tag said 111FD)

Question - is the difference between the two just that the 111 has more tweak controls? Are those tweaks really necessary. I do like the real white for color temp but the store model seems to have a white that isnt blueish which is great.

So whats the consensus; are those extra controls necessary?
That's such a subjective area only you will be able to answer that in the end according to the price difference between the two at the time. The Elites have color temp settings and gamma adjustments. I don't know if they have RGB adjustments. You probably should look at the PDF manuals of each and evaluate these differences.

Doesnt seem to be a separate color brightness for blue to adjust it if i dont like it. Unless i didnt see the control.
From what I have been told, you can get this (RGB adjustments) on the non-Elites by using an HDMI input and calling it a PC input.

if there are speaker diferences i dont care wont be using them anyway. ill remove them. also i plan to use my DVD player for SD signals . i will use HDMI output 1080i (thats what my DVD player recoder can do). original source will be time warner cable HD box.
will that overcome the pioneer SD shortcomings ?
I'm not sure how you would do this. (You mention a player and a recorder). A DVD player has no tuner. Unless you're saying an SD signal can be run from the STB then through your DVD player, then to the TV. But SD is SD. Even if it's "blown up" to 1080 or 16:9, it's still SD. There's no way of making it HD since you're starting off with SD or 480. It would probably look worse trying to make it 1080. Just like enlarging a photo. But if you have a DVD recorder that has some kind of "upscaling" from SD, it may look better than SD.

enf1945

04-11-09, 12:06 AM

Clint S.

04-11-09, 12:30 AM

i guess what i'm looking for is comments on how these units fair in SD mode ; giben their reputation . . .

is there alot better out there ?
alot worse ?
i saw a panasonic (dont have the model) and the SD actually had gross moire-like distortions; especially around lettering .

Not too good. But I've see a lot worse (Toshiba LCD). The sharpness and contrast needs to be way down for SD to look its best. Since you're on Comcast cable, don't they have most channels in HD? Cox does. (I'm most curious as to why you put a space before periods and ? marks). :confused: :D

enf1945

04-11-09, 12:47 AM

>>Since you're on Comcast cable, don't they have most channels in HD?

i have alot of "legacy" non HD dvd's around.
so thats a concern, beyond what is broadcast on cable.(i have time warner not comcast but they have alot in HD)

how do the panasonic plasma or good Samsung LCD 120hz stack up against the 111 or 5020 in SD mode ?
(dont like the samsung 950's , too reflective)

i like the space before the ? because i think it gives more of a standout of the questionmark.
your right about the "." though.

Clint S.

04-11-09, 01:30 AM

>>Since you're on Comcast cable, don't they have most channels in HD?

i have alot of "legacy" non HD dvd's around.
so thats a concern, beyond what is broadcast on cable.(i have time warner not comcast but they have alot in HD)
Ah I thought it was Comcast you mentioned. SD DVD's will look a lot better than SD TV.

how do the panasonic plasma or good Samsung LCD 120hz stack up against the 111 or 5020 in SD mode ?
(dont like the samsung 950's , too reflective)
I have no idea. Generally, a TV with a sharper clearer PQ will look worse on SD because it more readily shows the poorer signal quality. But there's other things to take into considering that can have an effect like the type of SD processing that's taking place.

The only way you can know for sure is to line up the TV's side-by-side and look at SD on them, not very likely to happen. Even if you brought an SD DVD with you to different places that have the TV's, our visual memories are too unreliable to make accurate comparisons. Then even if you asked in the respective forums, you'll get so many different answers because "good" is such a subjective thing that changes with each user. I would say the most reliable method (other than the direct side-by-side comparisons), is to find review sites that reviewed all the prospective TV's and see what they said about SD, and, they would have to have some kind of "universal SD testing method" that would be objective and not subjective to reviewer tastes and individual interpretation.

winston9332

04-14-09, 11:33 PM

Did a quick search on the thread and did not see an answer, but apologies if this was covered numerous times pages ago.

I am looking at purchasing what a retailer has described as an open box 5020. That said, I would ideally like to verify the amount of hours on the set.

Is there a way I can access the service menu with the normal remote to obtain this info? anything else I can do to test the veracity of the dealer's claims?

THANKS IN ADVANCE!

ROMAN O

04-14-09, 11:46 PM

You would have to buy Controlcal software and not sure that would help in your situation

prepress

04-15-09, 05:29 AM

madman808

04-17-09, 06:04 PM

My first post!

I'd like to thank D-Nice. His review is what swayed me from the 5020 to the 111. I spent about 2 months trying to decide between the two and then I happened to find this site and this post. I just took delivery of it yesterday; it was like Christmas in the middle of April! I'm upgrading from a 27" Wega that I purchased about 10 years ago so this is a huge change for me.

My question is regarding the cooling fans. I've been doing the suggested break-in procedure with a flash drive and have noticed that the fans don't kick in. Maybe I'm just used to CPU fans that pretty much run all the time, but should I be concerned? The area around the TV gets warm, but not what I would consider hot.

Juan

04-17-09, 06:14 PM

madman808

04-17-09, 06:40 PM

No need to be concerned, they will come on if it the TV gets hot enough.

Cool, thanks!

SOG9

04-18-09, 10:41 PM

Quick question - On my 111, when I have the screen size set at the "Auto" setting, sometimes the word "Auto" is white and sometime it is green. Why is this?

johnnyb05

04-19-09, 09:32 AM

>>Since you're on Comcast cable, don't they have most channels in HD?

i have alot of "legacy" non HD dvd's around.
so thats a concern, beyond what is broadcast on cable.(i have time warner not comcast but they have alot in HD)

how do the panasonic plasma or good Samsung LCD 120hz stack up against the 111 or 5020 in SD mode ?
(dont like the samsung 950's , too reflective)

i like the space before the ? because i think it gives more of a standout of the questionmark.
your right about the "." though. i was in the same boat, so i picked up a DVDO edge. it makes SD dvd look pretty darn good and helps clean up cable tv also. has aton of other features that are useful.

RichB

04-19-09, 02:54 PM

i was in the same boat, so i picked up a DVDO edge. it makes SD dvd look pretty darn good and helps clean up cable tv also. has aton of other features that are useful.

I have a 500M and a 600M in different rooms.
The 500M is running connected via the Edge. The 600M is direct both were displaying last nights Harry Potter in HD. I prefered the image on the 500M a bit more pop and detail.

- Rich

JWhip

04-19-09, 02:58 PM

I have a 500M and a 600M in different rooms.
The 500M is running connected via the Edge. The 600M is direct both were displaying last nights Harry Potter in HD. I prefered the image on the 500M a bit more pop and detail.

- Rich

Rich, just wondering if the increased detail was due to the smaller size, just looking more detailed due to the smaller screen.

RichB

04-19-09, 03:23 PM

Rich, just wondering if the increased detail was due to the smaller size, just looking more detailed due to the smaller screen.

I can't say for sure. However, I think I will be getting an Edge for the 600. Then I can compare them ;)

- Rich

smkuhn

04-29-09, 08:56 AM

Can't blame you for that D-Nice. 29 degrees this morning. Please let me know if you are planning a trip to the Mid West, or perhaps you know of someone in my area that can do a great job? Thanks!

Steve

D-Nice, now that Spring has sprung in the Mid-West, will you be taking a trip this way? If not, can you recommend someone in my area that can do the job? Thanks!

Steve

soundwatts

05-14-09, 04:08 AM

the pioneer brochure says the tv ships with these options but I dont see them in my menu settings? Do you know why they would have taken it away?

dssturbo1

05-14-09, 10:07 AM

the pioneer brochure says the tv ships with these options but I dont see them in my menu settings? Do you know why they would have taken it away?

The ISFccc capabilities are only accessed through a program called ControlCal. They are not just available using the owners menus.

Once activated by you or a calibrator using ControlCal they will show in your mode options just like the normal Pure/Movie/Standard etc etc...

zoomm

05-18-09, 12:13 AM

sakaike

05-18-09, 01:33 PM

Hey guys, I purchased a Samsung UN55B6000 but could not stand the flashlighting so I exchanged it for a 6020 and I couldn't be happier. However I am having a problem with my Oppo OPDV971H. When I connect the player via DVI to HDMI to the TV I get no picture. I have tried changing the output resolutions on the Oppo but nothing happens. The player does work when connected to the component inputs, but it will only display at 480i. When I had the Samsung it worked great when connected to the HDMI and would upconvert to 1080i. What am missing here? Is there a way to get TV to recognize the player with the digital input? I tried a search and found nothing. Any help would be appreciated.

I had my 971 hooked up to my 5020 for a brief time (before replacing it with my BDP-83 :D), and had no problems. However, I ran the 971 through my Onkyo 606 for video switching. You don't state whether this is a direct connection or not, but either way, I would test different HDMI inputs, and make sure that the output resolution of the Oppo is the same as what the Pio is expecting. There is no reason I am aware of that these two units shouldn't play very nicely together...

zoomm

05-18-09, 04:44 PM

Thanks for the reply sakaike. It is a direct connection. My current stereo receiver is pretty old and has no upconversion capabilities. I plan on purchasing a new receiver eventually, but I need to lower some of my debt first.:)

mhdiab

06-25-09, 11:52 AM

Zoom - still thrilled about the tv?

I need a 55-60 inch tv and went to look at the Samsungs at BB. All of them with shadows in the corners so that was it for me. The 6020 can be had for a good price at BB right now so it will either be that tv or hoping that Samsung improves on the 8000 series but then I can't get the Kuro....

Anyone with other suggestions besides these two for that size?

usmcdot

06-25-09, 12:00 PM

Anyone have settings recommendations for playing the ps3 on the 151?
Thanks

dssturbo1

06-25-09, 04:19 PM

prepress

06-26-09, 05:21 AM

I can't say for sure. However, I think I will be getting an Edge for the 600. Then I can compare them ;)

- Rich

My suspicion would be it's the Edge, based on my experience comparing SD sources through mine versus direct to display.

RichB

06-26-09, 07:50 AM

I have a 500M and a 600M in different rooms.
The 500M is running connected via the Edge. The 600M is direct both were displaying last nights Harry Potter in HD. I prefered the image on the 500M a bit more pop and detail.

- Rich

I can't say for sure. However, I think I will be getting an Edge for the 600. Then I can compare them ;)

- Rich

My suspicion would be it's the Edge, based on my experience comparing SD sources through mine versus direct to display.

D-Nice has posted that the 500M uses some of the newer technology that was destined for the 10g's. I think that accounts for it. The black levels on the 500M are *almost* bezel black. I think that explains it.

They are both excellent, but the 500M is amazing.

- Rich

VidPro

06-26-09, 08:15 AM

I'd love to see the 500 next to my 111. I'm always amazed at how black the blacks are on the set. I have to strain to try and see a screen and bezel difference. If there is something on the screen all bets are off on making a distinction.

saprano

07-23-09, 06:01 PM

D-Nice has posted that the 500M uses some of the newer technology that was destined for the 10g's. I think that accounts for it. The black levels on the 500M are *almost* bezel black. I think that explains it.

They are both excellent, but the 500M is amazing.

- Rich

This is what i dont get. on my 151 the blacks are endless. i can't tell the bezel from the black bars ether. and this is with light shining in the room. my TV is not even completely set up yet for proper viewing and its not even broken in. i can't imagine how its going to look once i really get to watch a movie.

I dont see how the 500m can be that much better. heck, i can't see how the 10g's were suppose to improve from this:eek:

petmic10

07-23-09, 06:20 PM

This is what i dont get. on my 151 the blacks are endless. i can't tell the bezel from the black bars ether. and this is with light shining in the room. my TV is not even completely set up yet for proper viewing and its not even broken in. i can't imagine how its going to look once i really get to watch a movie.

I dont see how the 500m can be that much better. heck, i can't see how the 10g's were suppose to improve from this:eek:

If you had them both in the same room side by side you would see
the difference.

prepress

11-02-09, 03:11 PM

If you had them both in the same room side by side you would see
the difference.

Is this a difference similar to that between the 8G and 9G, in that one needed an all-black screen or scenes with a large area of black to see the difference?

VidPro

11-02-09, 03:20 PM

If you had them both in the same room side by side you would see
the difference.

I've been playing this game with the 500M and my 111 and I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing no difference. Tonight I am going to do another side by side without my AVR inthe loop to see if anything changes otherwise I'm not sure what to think.

David Susilo

11-02-09, 03:21 PM

prepress, I own both 8G and 9G 50" panels, both ISF calibrated every 6 months, you don't need to watch a specific scenes to see that the 9G is better. Any scene tend to look more 3D on the 9G over the 8G.

My 8G is in my daughter's room and my 9G is in my bedroom.

David Susilo

11-02-09, 03:30 PM

I've been playing this game with the 500M and my 111 and I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing no difference. Tonight I am going to do another side by side without my AVR inthe loop to see if anything changes otherwise I'm not sure what to think.

there should be no difference between the 500M and 111.

D-Nice

11-02-09, 03:43 PM

there should be no difference between the 500M and 111.There is a difference between a 111FD and 500M when it comes to black levels (they are two completely different PDP modules). I see it every day as I own both panels.

luvnhateSony

11-02-09, 03:54 PM

^^ After having both panels myself I can certainly attest to this statement in terms of what sets them apart and its definitely the black levels. :)

prepress

11-02-09, 04:26 PM

I haven't seen a 500, unfortunately, but the fact that it's a monitor only would have killed the deal for me. I needed a full-blown television, and the 111 fills the bill well.

tbird8450

11-02-09, 04:54 PM

Tonight I am going to do another side by side without my AVR inthe loop to see if anything changes otherwise I'm not sure what to think.

Didn't you already temporarily pull out the Denon and claim that the 500M's blacks improved?

VidPro

11-02-09, 05:56 PM

There is a difference between a 111FD and 500M when it comes to black levels (they are two completely different PDP modules). I see it every day as I own both panels.

This is probably a dumb question but can it possibly be the HDMI cable I am using? I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

Last night pretty much proved to me that there is no difference (at least the way I am setting it up) over my 111. The fact that some here say that the smallest amount of titles on a black screen makes the blacks disappear into the night has me scratching my head.

VidPro

11-02-09, 05:58 PM

Didn't you already temporarily pull out the Denon and claim that the 500M's blacks improved?

Improved yes and now that I changed the Denon to RGB enhanced it seems to be fine except for the fact that I'm not seeing the 111 to 500 difference. I just want to see the two together and say oh so this what everybody means. :)

Beto3645

11-08-09, 07:19 PM

Hi, I have not posted in years, but I just took delivery of a 500M and I have a question. (I did a search but did not find the answer.)

I am still waiting for my cable box and an Oppo player, so I do not have any HDMI equipment. My question does not apply to the HDMI inputs.

I hooked up my laptop via the DVI port (Input 4). My laptop only has DVI out, no HDMI at all. Since DVI is video-only, I hooked up the sound separately to the 500M's Audio-In left and right inputs. The 500M's speaker terminals were connected to a pair of spare speakers I have.

There is video (spectacular!), but no sound. In cycling through the inputs, sound appears for Input 2, but not for Input 4. Any ideas?

TIA!

Kal Rubinson

11-08-09, 07:27 PM

Go to Input Setup page 2 and associate that analog audio input with Input 4.

bodosom

11-08-09, 07:38 PM

Hi, I have not posted in years, but I just took delivery of a 500M and I have a question. (I did a search but did not find the answer.)

Congratulations on a great display -- my personal favorite.

The manual is deficient in this area and neglects to mention the audio input maps on Input Setup page 2 of 2. Recently mentioned here in the KRP thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17375734&postcount=2642).

Beto3645

11-08-09, 07:50 PM

Thank you, Kal! I had not realized that there were 2 pages to Input Setup. I enjoy your column in Stereophile and one of your posts in another forum influenced my decision to buy the 500M. It replaces a 1991 Sony Trinitron XBR.

Beto3645

11-08-09, 08:04 PM

bodosom, thank you! And thank you for the link to the other post.

Kal Rubinson

11-08-09, 08:21 PM

prepress

11-11-09, 10:58 AM

Mine replaced an even older Sony which would not die!

Interesting. My 111 replaced a Sony XBR also, bought in 1992 but manufactured in 1990. It didn't seem as if it was going to die anytime soon either. I hope my 111 is that stubborn.

spongebob

12-23-09, 09:56 AM

there should be no difference between the 500M and 111.

There is a difference between a 111FD and 500M when it comes to black levels (they are two completely different PDP modules). I see it every day as I own both panels.

There is a difference. There isn't a difference

:eek:

David Susilo

12-23-09, 09:59 AM

D-Nice is correct and I'm incorrect.

On pure-black or mostly black scenes, the 500M black is slightly blacker than the 111. I just never looked that closely using the right scenes.

prepress

12-24-09, 07:26 PM

D-Nice is correct and I'm incorrect.

On pure-black or mostly black scenes, the 500M black is slightly blacker than the 111. I just never looked that closely using the right scenes.

Don't be concerned. I had the same experience seeing the 110 and 111 side-by-side. It was during images with substantial black in them that allowed me to see a difference. Otherwise, I couldn't tell either.

zoro

01-25-10, 01:52 AM

All of my official settings are located in the link below.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1053444

where r these
Non-Break-in DVD/Thumbdrive Owners ONLY!!!!!!!

bodosom

04-04-10, 05:03 PM

I've seen some references to this although oddly not in the 9G threads I read.

Home Theater Geeks 13: Plasma Geek Out (http://twit.tv/htg13)
Host: Scott Wilkinson
Scott looks at the history and latest developments in plasma display technology.
Guest: Josh Kairoff (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/josh-kairoff/0/439/740)*, Chief Technologist for Display Engineering Inc.

*Dir, Display Engineering Pioneer Electronics October 1996 — June 2008 (11 years 9 months)

saprano

04-04-10, 05:34 PM

Yeah there was a thread here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1239064&highlight=

Seems knowbody cared though.

bodosom

04-04-10, 05:57 PM

Seems knowbody cared though.

There wasn't much interest in that thread. There was much more interest in the Panasonic black level discussion. I thought I'd mention it in a Pioneer thread.

Kiwi7

04-29-10, 11:34 AM

The first link by D-Nice provided the break-in settings and procedures for the 111fd. I am half way through that procedure and have discovered just how tedious six days of relentless single coloured (well different twenty shades of them actually) screens can be.
Anyway I described to my local salesman what I was aiming for, and how I was going about it. Needless to say that he had never had a customer who was breaking-in or calibrating their TV.
He asked me for the best settings he could put into the Kuro TV's he has in his shop. These are not broken-in. I have spent five days going through untold numbers of forum items to see what the best set-up is for an 111fd (called LX5090 in europe) and I have'nt found anything specific for this model before "break-in".
D-Nice mentioned in item 30 to use the settings labeled "Non-Break-in DVD/Thumbdrive Owners ONLY!!!!!!!".
This was picked in item 7945 by Zoro who aksed "where are these?".
Can I also throw my two cents in and also ask 'where are these'.
Can anybody help direct me?
Thanks in advance.

Alkaline

05-04-10, 12:26 AM

Could a kind soul please clarify the "pure cinema" modes on the 9G Elites (specifically, 72 hz mode)? I'm due to receive a 101FD tomorrow, which will replace a 5070 from '06. On the 6g sets ala the 5070, pure cinema had less options--off, standard, and advanced. Advanced was 72hz mode with 3:3 pulldown for 1080p/24 sources. I know that there are more Pure Cinema options on the 8g/9g Kuros, but the manual for the 101FD is somewhat cryptic in its descriptions. So basically, I'm seeking to clarify which pure cinema mode on the 9g Elites does the basic 72hz with straight 3:3 for 1080p/24 input, with no additional processing/"smoothing"/etc. Is it still "advanced" mode? Is 72hz engaged automatically no matter what when a 1080p/24 source is detected? I've looked through the relevant 9g threads on here but I can't seem to find a clear cut answer. The 72hz capability is a feature I covet very highly on the Pioneers, so it's of utmost importance to me. Thanks in advance.

stea78

05-11-10, 09:36 PM

Is it possible to connect a bluray player directly to a pro101fd via 1.3hdmi. and pass the high def audio formats through to a vsx94txh via the hdmi control or the sr+ connection?

bodosom

05-12-10, 12:08 AM

Is it possible to connect a bluray player directly to a pro101fd via 1.3hdmi. and pass the high def audio formats through to a vsx94txh via the hdmi control or the sr+ connection?

I'm not sure what you're asking (possibly because I know nothing about the VSX) but if you mean HDMI in to the 101FD and then audio out from the 101FD to another device then no.

progprog

05-12-10, 01:31 AM

Is it possible to connect a bluray player directly to a pro101fd via 1.3hdmi. and pass the high def audio formats through to a vsx94txh via the hdmi control or the sr+ connection?
You should go the other direction: connect the BD player's HDMI out directly to the VSX94TXH, and then run HDMI from the receiver to the 101FD for video. That is the only way to take full advantage of the lossless audio codecs and all your receiver's audio processing capabilities.

David Susilo

05-12-10, 08:35 AM

Is it possible to connect a bluray player directly to a pro101fd via 1.3hdmi. and pass the high def audio formats through to a vsx94txh via the hdmi control or the sr+ connection?

100% no.

stea78

05-13-10, 09:23 PM

Thanks for the help guys. Much appreciated.

stea78

05-17-10, 09:37 PM

I'm wondering which confige to use for my audio, 5.1 possibly, 7.1 analogs with hdmi direct to tv, or hdmi direct to my pio. vsx94txh. Set is a pro101fd. Will also have xbox360, coxHD, and oppo83. I can't really smurge for the SE, alrealy at my limits for my project. I have an eyeone pro for video, and cal. ecm8000 for audio, so I'm not to concerned about auto cals or anything.

progprog

05-17-10, 11:49 PM

RoTuN

06-18-10, 12:07 PM

I've been searching for awhile now and am quite sick of doing it so I'm going to ask my stupid question here...............

How can I tell if my PRO141FD is 8G vs. 9G?

Thanks, sorry for the newb ?

Jonesy11

06-18-10, 12:25 PM

Jonesy11

06-18-10, 12:27 PM

I've been searching for awhile now and am quite sick of doing it so I'm going to ask my stupid question here...............

How can I tell if my PRO141FD is 8G vs. 9G?

Thanks, sorry for the newb ?

All 141s are 9G.

guyharrisonphoto

06-18-10, 12:27 PM

Now, I have to post a question here, among all you Elite owners.

I have not been able to locate any 141/151/600m models. I have a line on a very reasonably priced 6020FD, new in the box.

Will the 6020 give me the same picture quality (or within a hair) of the elite models? I know you cannot calibrate with the same precision, but if it equals my un-tweaked 101 in simple "pure" mode (which I believe the 6020 has?) I would be very happy.

Can any sort of calibration be done to it to bring it close to the elites?

In the non-elite thread recent posts claim that if you have the 6020 gray-scale calibrated, you cannot really tell the difference from the elites except on test pattern discs, but I want feedback from the people with the most demanding visual reference.

What to you calibrators say??

bodosom

06-18-10, 12:29 PM

I've been searching for awhile now and am quite sick of doing it so I'm going to ask my stupid question here...............

How can I tell if my PRO141FD is 8G vs. 9G?

Anything you see on the current Kuro page (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/PlasmaTVs+Monitors/), including your Signature Eite is 9G. Since you own a 141 you should feel free to post in the 141 owners thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1059491).

Nascar Dog

06-18-10, 12:29 PM

RoTuN

06-18-10, 12:43 PM

Thanks all for the answer. Was asking not just for the 141 but figured it applied to the 151 as well, I forgot there was separate forums for those but since this forum is labeled what it is I put it here.

Thanks again.

bodosom

06-18-10, 12:43 PM

Now, I have to post a question here, among all you Elite owners
....

What to you calibrators say??

This is the wrong thread (because it's nearly moribund). Most 9G traffic is on the respective Elite/Non-Elite thread or the Settings thread.

However as you've already seen non-Elite owners are quite happy to tell you their displays are just as good as the Elites. Are they? By any reasonable metric of course not BUT that doesn't (and shouldn't) matter to a lot of people particularly if their circumstance is such that the Elite feature set is of little value to them. Likewise most people see little value in the "monitor" feature set even at the value pricing for the KRP line.

Remember, at the end of the day you'll adapt to whatever picture you get and in time other versions will look not quite right. Your psychological posture is more important than the Kuro model number.

By the way, as I said before, you'll save enough over the cost of a 151 to buy an outboard CMS like a VideoEQ or Duo.