I can wait. My 4280 will tide me over as well as my dinosaur Mits in the basement. I'll still let everyone know as i find out more info.


I highly doubt you will see anything in Tweeter's database regarding the Signature series until July.

Tweeter's 111FD/151FD delivery dates will be in the July timeframe...not June ;)

I'm sorry but detailed information regarding grades will never be posted on an open internet forum for any manufaturer. Just keep in mind that ALL manufacturers grade glass.

That makes sense as far as specifics, percentages etc. go, as that's internal information that could be used unfavorably against a manufacturer in both the marketplace and the stock market.

I was more curious about the sorts of things the inspectors look for when they sort glass to separate top-of-the-line glass from run-of-the-mill glass - and are any of these variables things that the consumer can also look for when buying a display, without pulling the display apart and using a micrometer.

Elite will be one month late, so expect to see PRO-111 and PRO151 start to roll out in early August.

-Robert

:mad::mad::mad:

Last year some came a little earlier so lets hope this happens again. Robert the pricing has been announced through the grape vine ;)

God I hope this is the case this year too!!

Hello all . . . I discovered this site about 3 days ago (while searching for info about the new Pioneers) and have read through this entire thread as well as a few others. I have been wanting to buy a Pioneer for a year or so now (am currently watching a 30" 1080i Toshiba CRT, so it would be a huge improvement), and like many others, have maybe learned more than I bargained for (I had no idea that the Elites were actually capable of noticeably better PQ).

Anyway, my question is: has anyone seen the 8Gs and 9Gs side-by-side? Are they displaying them that way on the roadshow? With the discount pricing on the 8Gs at the forum sponsors, I am tempted to buy a 5010fd. I'm wondering if the difference in PQ is noticeable and THAT much better.

Oh, and one more thing . . . is there anywhere we can discuss street price? If I am going to spend around $3k on a 5010fd, I'd like to know how much more it would cost me to get a 5020fd.

Thanks!

Hello all . . . I discovered this site about 3 days ago ....

Welllllll come El Bandito, I discoverd this site 3 years ago and still have no HD-TV :D

Elite will be one month late, so expect to see PRO-111 and PRO151 start to roll out in early August.


Not until August now? I was really hoping June/July. http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/images/smilies/sad-smiley-011.gif

Welllllll come El Bandito, I discoverd this site 3 years ago and still have no HD-TV :D

Ha, I was ready to buy a 5010fd about 3 months ago but knew the new models would be released soon, so I decided to wait. So I can see how this could become an endless waiting game for the next big thing (ECC anyone?). I decided I'm going to bite the bullet this summer, and I'm mighty happy I found this site!

Sorry guys and gals, I'm running late to class. Elite will be one month late, so expect to see PRO-111 and PRO151 start to roll out in early August.
-Robert

SIGH!!!!!

I highly doubt you will see anything in Tweeter's database regarding the Signature series until July.

Tweeter's 111FD/151FD delivery dates will be in the July timeframe...not June ;)


Why do you say this? Any particular reasoning? I don't understand why Magnolia would recieve their sets first over Tweeter. Wouldn't it be the same timeframe?

From what I understand, there is a setting on the panels to make them engergy star compliant. I'll try and get actual spec sheets.



Also, can you ask your contacts for the final specs on energy usage?

I think the 3 year warranty on the Elites backs up your assumption.

Where does it say anything about a 3-year warranty on the Elite? Yeah, the
current 8G has a 3-year warranty, but that's no guarantee the 9G is. I still
think many of us are jumping to conclusions too early and setting ourselves up
for quite the disappointment. I hope I'm wrong, though.

I BB/believe Magnolia is their largest dealer.

Why do you say this? Any particular reasoning? I don't understand why Magnolia would recieve their sets first over Tweeter. Wouldn't it be the same timeframe?

Where does it say anything about a 3-year warranty on the Elite? Yeah, the
current 8G has a 3-year warranty, but that's no guarantee the 9G is. I still
think many of us are jumping to conclusions too early and setting ourselves up
for quite the disappointment. I hope I'm wrong, though.


Look at the chart where it says warranty

http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POCEN/Press+Room/Press+Releases/%28clone+of%29+Pioneer+Broadens+2008+Elite+KURO+Line+of+Disp lays+with+New+Signature+Series+of+Monitors

I'm hoping Robert is wrong, but that's slim... one source I contacted has an ETA of end of June. We all want to see these sooner than later...

Elite will be one month late, so expect to see PRO-111 and PRO151 start to roll out in early August.

From what I understand, there is a setting on the panels to make them engergy star compliant. I'll try and get actual spec sheets.

Thanks, Russ. That's great news!!! Hopefully that setting doesn't mess with the quality of the picture. (Maybe you could ask what that setting does?) It's tough being an environmentalist who wants to buy a 60" plasma! You just made it easier.

I BB/believe Magnolia is their largest dealer.

Oh for sure

isn't august 2 months late? i can't wait that long :*(

There is an entire thread (Pioneer 8G Kuro Buzz Poll) committed to discussing the buzz issue that shouldn't be too hard to find under the collection of normal threads. I'd suggest you read some of the material there as there is quite a diversity of opinion on the subject. Read about the experiences of others and perhaps you could make your own conclusions.

With respect to the 9Gs, D-Nice has offered all of the information he currently has available.

The 9 Gs will have

1. a new power supply
2. same single glass design
3. same firing sequence

So we owe him our thanks.

*E X A C T L Y!!*

Look people, I *PAID* over $8K for a friggin' Pro-150FD Elite (I have every
right to be concerned as well) and you can read my complaints in the buzz
thread if you wish, but I won't assume the 9G's buzz or anything like that.
Speculation of defects and issues before a product is released is purely
dumb. Sorry, but it is! We can only hope for design changes to reduce or
eliminate future issues, which was already stated to have already been done,
but until the damned thing comes out, leave the subject alone or just go to
the buzz poll thread. :mad:

Look at the chart where it says warranty

http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POCEN/Press+Room/Press+Releases/%28clone+of%29+Pioneer+Broadens+2008+Elite+KURO+Line+of+Disp lays+with+New+Signature+Series+of+Monitors

Keep in mind this applies only to Kuro Elite panels sold in Canada -- they come with a 3 year warranty. Pioneer USA Kuro Elite's come with a two year warranty.

Keep in mind this applies only to Kuro Elite panels sold in Canada -- they come with a 3 year warranty. Pioneer USA Kuro Elite's come with a two year warranty.

That's why it is on Pioneer Canada's site

Look at the chart where it says warranty

http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POCEN/Press+Room/Press+Releases/%28clone+of%29+Pioneer+Broadens+2008+Elite+KURO+Line+of+Disp lays+with+New+Signature+Series+of+Monitors

The Original chart I saw didn't have Elites on them.

Oh man! I just noticed there was another chart with Elites only on them.
My bad! Hmm... because there are 2 different charts between the Pioneer
Canada and Pioneer U.S. sites (ie: one has 3-year, other has 2-year warranty),
it looks like we can assume those prices on the Canadian sites are for real. :)

(incidentally, what's with the chart being cut-off?)

(incidentally, what's with the chart being cut-off?)

Good HTML coders are hard to find? ;)

Sorry guys and gals, I'm running late to class. Elite will be one month late, so expect to see PRO-111 and PRO151 start to roll out in early August.

Pricing will be announced later today at the road show.

I have photo's but need more time to get them on-line.

-Robert

Damn! Well, it's only 30 days. Actually, I wasn't planning to buy until September/Octoberish.

Per Roman, the pricing already been released.:confused:

He may be referring to final Signature Series pricing...

Damn! Well, it's only 30 days. Actually, I wasn't planning to buy until September/Octoberish.

Per Roman, hasn't the pricing already been released?:confused:

Like I said before, I don't see Pioneer selling the Signature Series at the same price as the Elites. Not when they're marketing them like this.........
Hand-Selected for Optimum Performance & Scalability Targeted to Growing Custom-Installation Market

Damn! Well, it's only 30 days. Actually, I wasn't planning to buy until September/Octoberish.

Per Roman, the pricing already been released.:confused:

Yes it has by Pioneer. It is prob the Sig series as those I have not seen.

D-Nice: If you're still talking to me I have another '?' ;) I think I remember you having some info on the first 'Panoneer' Pio's coming next year. Do you have any info on their release? In May 2009 will the 10G's already be out? It's an interesting question now that the Elites are supposedly delayed until August. Any idea (rough or otherwise) of the window between the availability of 9G and the (announcement as well as the availability of) 10G? Thanks! :)

why would a three year warranty be so hard?

we get 5 year in home warranty on all kuros sold down here

Here in the US, we probably pay a fraction of the price you pay "down under".

These were supposed to come later, not earlier than the 9th generation because of the change over. Last data I saw here said September '09.

Normal release cycle has been the same every year for the last number of years, which would be around July/August for Elites. August '06 for 7Gs, August '07 for 8Gs. This year it's supposed to be a little ealier in June. I'm thinking/hoping August again next year for the 10G and August after that for 11G and August after that.... you get the cycle....

D-Nice: If you're still talking to me I have another '?' ;) I think I remember you having some info on the first 'Panoneer' Pio's coming next year. Do you have any info on their release? In May 2009 will will the 10G's already be out? It's an interesting question now that the Elites are supposedly delayed until August. Any idea (rough or otherwise) of the window between the availability of 9G and the (announcement as well as the availability of) 10G? Thanks! :)

you get the cycle....

Thanks Russ!! I get it, doesn't mean I have to like it.. ;)

That's a bummer... might make August '09 seem like a blessing! We can all cross our fingers. I know the 8G came out a little earlier then expected and the 9Gs are supposed to come out earlier too. That's going to make a wide gap though...

No. Pioneer is getting their 10G PDP glass from Panasonics new plant that does not come online until May 2009. I've stated in the past that the 10G Kuros will be delayed because of that.

That's a bummer... might make August '09 seem like a blessing! We can all cross our fingers. I know the 8G came out a little earlier then expected and the 9Gs are supposed to come out earlier too. That's going to make a wide gap though...I would say August for the non-Elites and September for the Elites. If Panasonic's plant goes into actual production mode earlier (1-1.5 months early), then release dates should be close to what they are today.

On the subject of "buzz" etc. I'll stick to a technical question only and maybe general comment on my purchase plan for a KURO 60".

If (it seems for the "majority"...), an 8G does not have(or not any "significant" Buzz), is there any issue at all with the RELIABILITY of the Power Supply?

I'm considering an 8G (PDP-6010FD) because my local dealer is willing to sell me one of his "only turned on for display at customer request" units for "his cost" (I won't go further with price here). I'm giving this one a hard look provided that there is no excessive "buzz" and a test for IR shows NO traces when the set is powered up in a dark room with no input. This seems to be the standard "test", correct me if I'm wrong:).

I know the image quality is great for even the 8G so I was wondering how bad the "regret factor" might be even if I stopped doing "forum comparisons" and went away happy with the "new" 8G...

General comments welcome...

Lots of Lurking, first post etc, etc,.:)

Like I said before, I don't see Pioneer selling the Signature Series at the same price as the Elites.

I hope you are wrong on this one. Considering the features that a Signature is lacking from an Elite, things should even out in terms of prices to the point of equality. Lack of speakers, tuner, etc. and a thinner depth of the unit itself are significant ways to lower the price for whatever features they are adding on to the Signatures.

How much a premium are they putting on "A+ glass", hand built this-and-that, and the certificate of coolness (or whatever) that you get with the unit is the real question.

is there any issue at all with the RELIABILITY of the Power Supply? Nothing so far.

I know the image quality is great for even the 8G so I was wondering how bad the "regret factor" might be even if I stopped doing "forum comparisons" and went away happy with the "new" 8G...


As many will probably say, "regret" is a personal thing. You have to determine whether the price, timing, etc. are the right choice for you. I'm facing the same issue with buying a 5010 at about $600 less than a 5020. I'm leaning toward the 5010 at this point.

Some people are constitutionally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. In the end, it's simply tv. :D

I hope you are wrong on this one. Considering the features that a Signature is lacking from an Elite, things should even out in terms of prices to the point of equality. Lack of speakers, tuner, etc. and a thinner depth of the unit itself are significant ways to lower the price for whatever features they are adding on to the Signatures.

How much a premium are they putting on "A+ glass", hand built this-and-that, and the certificate of coolness (or whatever) that you get with the unit is the real question.

Many people paid more for the CMX series for Pioneer so you never know :)

I hope you are wrong on this one. Considering the features that a Signature is lacking from an Elite, things should even out in terms of prices to the point of equality. Lack of speakers, tuner, etc. and a thinner depth of the unit itself are significant ways to lower the price for whatever features they are adding on to the Signatures.

How much a premium are they putting on "A+ glass", hand built this-and-that, and the certificate of coolness (or whatever) that you get with the unit is the real question.

I would agree with you about that, the lack of speakers, tuner and stand should make for a lower price, but when you have Pioneer talking about "Optimum hand-built/Custom installer", it makes it sound like a very high-end part. Also, Robert has said that the Signature Series will have "very special and powerful features not found on any TV or monitor before", and that the engineering team is pushing for a higher price.

Time will tell.

It's soooo sad to hear about the Elite delay.... :(

I really was hoping to get rid of my 27" CRT by July. Oh well.

I'm very curious about the so called "firmware enhancements" and "special features" of the Signature series. Except for the remote calibration, do we have any idea of what feature will be included?

It's soooo sad to hear about the Elite delay.... :(



We are not 100% sure on this yet so lets wait :)

Hello friends,
Just wondering if there are going to be any differences when playing back BluRay in 24p playback on the 9G. Will there be any differences quality wise in comparison to the 8G (when playing back 24p media) ?
Thanks tons.
N

Hello friends,
Just wondering if there are going to be any differences when playing back BluRay in 24p playback on the 9G. Will there be any differences quality wise in comparison to the 8G (when playing back 24p media) ?
Thanks tons.
NDifferences? None.

I would agree with you about that, the lack of speakers, tuner and stand should make for a lower price, but when you have Pioneer talking about "Optimum hand-built/Custom installer", it makes it sound like a very high-end part. Also, Robert has said that the Signature Series will have "very special and powerful features not found on any TV or monitor before", and that the engineering team is pushing for a higher price.

Time will tell.

It looks like the "Signature" series will be a reference monitor of the highest order. The lack of speakers, tuner & stand makes perfect sense for a niche market to which this display is targeted. Kinda similar in ways to the "industrial" pro Panasonics, and they sold a lot of these displays. If you are in this niche category, then you really should not miss the speakers & tuners as even a small home theater system would suffice, and most people use a cable box, PVR, TIVO, or sat box for TV. If getting OTA is that important, you could always add an external tuner.

what's the reason for lack of tuner for the "Signature" series?

what's the reason for lack of tuner for the "Signature" series?

The reason Pioneer gave after the last monitor (PRO-FHD1) was released 2006 was to eliminate any possibilty for "RF interference".

Differences? None.

Please forgive the n00bie question but: How good is the 24p playback? Is it the best on the market as has been suggested? The 800u has had reports of flickery 24p, can anyone who's seen it say if Pioneers 24p processing is pretty damn flawless, or does it suffer any kind of flickering at 72hz?

Differences? None.

So assuming that my main factor in selecting a newer Plasma is the 24p native playback (for lower judder etc.) , then there is no difference between 8g or 9g in that regards. So I can go ahead and purchase a 8G 5010fd (standard) at the great prices now and be fine? Would there be any differences as far as we know now between using a 8g or a 9g for gaming purposes as well?
Thanks again for your insights and support.
n

Not sure that I will be able to afford the Signature, but I really like the idea of offering a monitor without the added cost of those extras. With a home audio system in place I would never use the TV's speakers, so why pay for them? I have digital cable and PVR so I have no need for a tuner. If I want to hang it on the wall, buy a mount. If I want to sit it on a cabinet then buy a stand. Sell me the monitor and let me by what I need separately.

Now, how about a non-Elite monitor? Forget the hand-picking and special gadgets. I simply want a Kuro monitor!

The reason Pioneer gave after the last monitor (PRO-FHD1) was released 2006 was to eliminate any possibilty for "RF interference".

Ahh so it will still accept digit tv just not analog, if I'm assuming correctly.

So assuming that my main factor in selecting a newer Plasma is the 24p native playback (for lower judder etc.) , then there is no difference between 8g or 9g in that regards.The 9Gs will do 3:3 frame replication just like the 8Gs when it comes to 1080p/24 film based material.

The 9Gs will do 3:3 frame replication just like the 8Gs when it comes to 1080p/24 film based material.

A question about smooth mode if it's okay. I've noticed that when smooth mode
kicks in on my Pro-150FD, it has the same effect as 120Hz on an LCD (especially
for close up textures). What I'd like to know is, have they made improvements
on the smooth mode to make it more stable and look less 120Hz-like on the 9G?
There were times where smooth mode was pretty amazing, while, well we know
about the other times.

Oh! I'm not sure if it's possible, but will smooth mode be available to use all the
time? Currently it's only available for certain content/modes. I don't recall it being
available for regular 60Hz stuff (at least at 1080P).

Thanks.

Ahh so it will still accept digit tv just not analog, if I'm assuming correctly.

Hopefully, Robert & others will be able to provide more info on the Signature Series. In fact, Robert has already put out a teaser in one post today as he is now looking at these displays at the Road Show.

I am considering one of the 9G models as my first foray into the plasma world. I have also spent some time reviewing the owner's manual from the 150FD. That said, I noticed that Pioneer gives some minimum clearances from walls, ceilings, etc... for their units. My question is, would wall mounting a unit such as the 151FD be detrimental to performance or longevity or contravene any warranty clauses as it would be much closer to the wall than the minimum distance specified by Pioneer? Thanks.

Not sure that I will be able to afford the Signature, but I really like the idea of offering a monitor without the added cost of those extras. With a home audio system in place I would never use the TV's speakers, so why pay for them? I have digital cable and PVR so I have no need for a tuner. If I want to hang it on the wall, buy a mount. If I want to sit it on a cabinet then buy a stand. Sell me the monitor and let me by what I need separately.

Now, how about a non-Elite monitor? Forget the hand-picking and special gadgets. I simply want a Kuro monitor!

I was thinking the same thing, and I prefer the industrial look of the old CMX series to the glossy consumer look ... I own a Panny UK monitor and love it. Any chance they'll ever update the Pro/Commerical CMX/EX series? Or will I just need to wait for a Panny 12UK cross-breed?

Ahh so it will still accept digit tv just not analog, if I'm assuming correctly.

it has no tuners whether analog or digital. it will accept sd/hd sources through it's hdmi or component inputs.

Folks,
I am an avsforum newbie who has been following this thread with great interest (day and night) hoping to get some info on whether I should get the 5010 or wait for the 5020.
Can someone tell me bottomline...
will the 5020 be available in june from all/most of the online stores that are currently selling the 5010 (amazon/bhphotovideo/etc) or will I have to go to Magnolia and pay MSRP+sales tax to get a 5020 in june? If the latter then when will the 5020 be available from online retailers?

Thanks much...

Attn: Canadians

There was a rumor that a bunch of Canadians who were buying "Elite"panels received a
discount by purchasing as a group.

Anybody that was part of that group,would you please send me a private message.I'm
willing to contact all the dealers,and include you in those e-mails.Hopefully as a group
we can get a meaningful discount.Thankfully the MSRP for the 08' models are much
improved over 07'.

I'm also curious if any of the ISFC3 calibrators on this thread/forum are in Canada

i think a couple of the avs forum sponsors actually had the 8g models like the5080 last year before BB had them in stock.

most likely depending on distrubution all retailers should have the 9G like the 5020 within a week or two of each other when they are released.

Nope.

That an opinion that you cannot backup with factual statisitcal information. A "Significant" manufacturing defects is above 30% of all panels produced. Contrary to what you think the AVS buzz poll means, the buzz issue is no where near those numbers.

Don't need it. Feel free to conduct your own survey of ALL Pioneer Kuro owners.

Studies show that with surveys where people are asked to volunteer whether or not they have a problem or complaint you'll get a disproportionate number of respondents who have had, or think they had, a problem. Evidently they're much more inclined to want to vent than are those experiencing no problem. Doing a survey as you describe is very bad statistical science and can become a self-fulling prophesy.

However, if a well designed and reliable survey indeed did show a 30% problem rate I'd call that much more than just 'significant."

Hopefully, Robert & others will be able to provide more info on the Signature Series. In fact, Robert has already put out a teaser in one post today as he is now looking at these displays at the Road Show.

yeah i read his post. I just can't wait for the rest of Roberts thoughts.

People perceive things differently. One person's ear may not focus on the buzz so much when the sound is loud enough on their TV. Others are more anal about it.

Also, hearing acuity varies tremendously among different people ... especially as they age and loose the the higher frequencies ... like plasma buzz.

Folks,
I am an avsforum newbie who has been following this thread with great interest (day and night) hoping to get some info on whether I should get the 5010 or wait for the 5020.
Can someone tell me bottomline...
will the 5020 be available in june from all/most of the online stores that are currently selling the 5010 (amazon/bhphotovideo/etc) or will I have to go to Magnolia and pay MSRP+sales tax to get a 5020 in june? If the latter then when will the 5020 be available from online retailers?

Thanks much...

I'm in the same boat - 5010 or 5020. I'm curious as to the street price delta - has the 5010 come down in price yet (as a result of the 5020 pricing/launch)?

Also, hearing acuity varies tremendously among different people ... especially as they age and loose the the higher frequencies ... like plasma buzz.

I actually hope that when I get a plasma, it buzzes real loud and high pitch. As long as I can't hear it! So when I have a kid he won't want to watch it.

"Daddy, I hate your TV, it buzzes and hurts my ears, I can't watch TV." :D

As someone who was just about to pull the trigger on a 6010 a couple months ago I decided to wait for the 9G panels and was convinced the 6020 was the way to go. Then I started reading about the Elites and thought I might as well spend an extra $1k or whatever it's going to cost and get the 151FD. Then further reading had me starting to wonder if I should go with the Signature model over the Elite. I'd like to have the absolute best, but if the Signature costs more than the normal Elite and the stand is extra I'll probably just have to "settle" for the 151FD.

We are not 100% sure on this yet so lets wait :)


And hope for a June/July release. http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/42.gif

Russ, I continue to struggle with the concept of Grade A glass vs. the best of Grade A glass. Bear with my hypothetical numbers to show my point:
If in the past, the top 5% of all glass went into the elite and now the top 2% will go into the Signature, doesn't that mean that the very best glass that used to go into the Elite is no longer available to it, meaning some Elite sets will take a hit in quality. Is this difference so miniscule as to be irrelevant? Or am I just not understanding something here

I thought about this all day ... this is a marketing mistake!!!

If the best parts are put in the Signature ... and the second best parts are put in the Elite ... then the remaining 'acceptable' parts are used in the non-Elites ... so for one of the most expensive plasma TVs on the market, you get the hand me downs of the hand me downs ... All the other brands will have a field day with this against the 5020' and 6020's ("Why buy twice rejected parts from Pioneer, when Brand X only sells you their BEST!!!")

Mercedes-Benz has the AMG Series ... Mercedes are not made from parts rejected by AMG, but AMG is value 'added' to Mercedes

This marketing 'wisdom' makes the Signature sound GREAT, but makes me think about buying from another company :mad: I hope this changes!!!

Let the Pre Orders begin and the new Generation of Pioneer Plasmas reign supreme.

I'll probably just have to "settle" for the 151FD.

Oh, you poor soul.

How will you live with such a low-grade plasma..........might as well buy a Vizio.

. this is a marketing mistake!!!


Yes it's a BIG marketing mistake! I think it's only a mistake. Pioneer is a Japanese company. The wording was probably first in Japanese and makes perfect to a person of Japanese nationality. But, in English, the way it's worded, does make it sound like the rejected Signature parts are put into the Elites, then if they're not good enough for Elite, the part goes into the non-Elite. It doesn't matter if that's not how they're really doing it, the person wanting to buy the non-Elite will have that in their mind. "Am I getting a hand me down part?"

Like the "Got milk?", ads in Spanish. In Spanish the meaning of their original phrase directly meant, "Do you still get breast fed?"

Like the "Got milk?", ads in Spanish. In Spanish the meaning of their original phrase directly meant, "Do you still get breast fed?"

... but that sounds better :p

I hope you are right on the translation.

I would love others to have an incredible Signature Series ... but I don't want to buy rejected parts in a 6020!!!

hey guys i'v been out on the latest news on pioneer tv for a while now i'l be reading as much as possible but i would like to know how are the new pioneers comparing to the current 8th gen pioneeers? all i know is that pioneer claims that theirs 5% more blackness and now theirs 3 editions of pioneer ?

im considering in buying a pioneer elite PRO-1150HD for 2370 but im wondering if its worth waiting for the new ones? i current have a TH-42PX75u panasonic 720p.... i could careless about 1080p although i dont mind it but im more intrested in PQ and non issues?

... but that sounds better :p


I remembered it wrongly. "Got milk," in Spanish is: ""¿Tiene leche?", which can be translated two ways, "Got milk?", and "Are you lactating?" With a picture of a person having milk around their mouth, would cause you to assume the person got their milk from a woman's breast. :eek:

Invision has set there pricing on the 5020 and 6020 models only. We do not sell the elite units because of there restriction on internet sales. If you are asking for elite pricing it will not be given and PM's will be returned with the same answer. Thanks :)

Alex
Invision Displays
Sales Executive

I thought about this all day ... this is a marketing mistake!!!

If the best parts are put in the Signature ... and the second best parts are put in the Elite ... then the remaining 'acceptable' parts are used in the non-Elites ... so for one of the most expensive plasma TVs on the market, you get the hand me downs of the hand me downs ... All the other brands will have a field day with this against the 5020' and 6020's ("Why buy twice rejected parts from Pioneer, when Brand X only sells you their BEST!!!")

Mercedes-Benz has the AMG Series ... Mercedes are not made from parts rejected by AMG, but AMG is value 'added' to Mercedes

This marketing 'wisdom' makes the Signature sound GREAT, but makes me think about buying from another company :mad: I hope this changes!!!


Are you sure it's a mistake? I see it as a ploy to get people to buy the elite or signiture series. Someone who is ready to spend more money on a pioneer in the first place is probably able to move up to the elite without much convincing.

Brent, I don't know how you could go wrong w/a 9G Elite, and it really will be the best in its class. In my mind, the Signature Series is a totally different animal, and most likely will have "monitor" applications quite different from the Elites. I'm anxious to learn more.

Oh, you poor soul.

How will you live with such a low-grade plasma..........might as well buy a Vizio.


I was being facetious, but obviously that was lost on you.

So why don't people do group purchases anymore ? Can't some of us get together and purchase 10 or 20 panels together at once and get closer to dealer pricing ????

guys i dont want to bother much but can anyone fill me in? where d-nice when you need him :confused:



hey guys i'v been out on the latest news on pioneer tv for a while now i'l be reading as much as possible but i would like to know how are the new pioneers comparing to the current 8th gen pioneeers? all i know is that pioneer claims that theirs 5% more blackness and now theirs 3 editions of pioneer ?

im considering in buying a pioneer elite PRO-1150HD for 2370 but im wondering if its worth waiting for the new ones? i current have a TH-42PX75u panasonic 720p.... i could careless about 1080p although i dont mind it but im more intrested in PQ and non issues?

Are you sure it's a mistake?

Yes it is. It's not a good business practice. To some, that $3,000 is a lot, me included. Some can only go a maximum of the non-Elite 50". There are ways of enticing a target group without making the out-group feel bad. To many people, they can't tell the difference between an LG, Panasonic, Samsung and the Pioneer non-Elite. None of those other companies "pride themselves," in making a caste system and then "entice you" as you put it, into buying into the next caste of Elite or Signature Elite brethren. Why would you buy a Pioneer if you can't tell the difference or can barely tell so it's not worth it to you, then have doubts whether you're getting inferior parts that might break sooner? You're more likely to have pre-cognitive dissonance, and switch ship before even buying a ticket.

Pioneer is having financial troubles as it is. And I wonder why?

If you never heard of Pioneer before. You go to Best Buy. You see this uber expensive Pioneer Elite Signature. The salesman says, "That's our Pioneer Elite Signature. It's better than all the other Pioneers, even regular Elite. The parts are hand-picked to ensure you get the perfect plasma." Customer, "So the regular Elite and non-Elite don't have hand picked parts too?" Salesman, "No they don't, that's what makes the Signature special." Customer, "I might get a non-perfect plasma if I don't buy the Signature, why does it need to be hand-picked to be sure of quality? Do you have any other brands which don't have any hand-picked to ensure I get a quality plasma?" Salesman, "Sure, here's our Samsung...."

It's sort of "admitting" in a backhanded manner, Pioneer doesn't have good enough manufacturing techniques to handle a premium plasma and must hand-select the Signature. The non-Elites are already expensive. As a regular joe-six-pack with lots of money, you'd not realize what the Signatures are really for. Real smart Pioneer!

The Signature series ... 141FD ... works best for me. Since I probably will not be purchasing it until late fall, early winter the later release date is no problem.

I was hoping to replace my Sony 36" XBR 400 in time for the Olympics but that is not going to happen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738
hey guys i'v been out on the latest news on pioneer tv for a while now i'l be reading as much as possible but i would like to know how are the new pioneers comparing to the current 8th gen pioneeers? all i know is that pioneer claims that theirs 5% more blackness and now theirs 3 editions of pioneer ?

im considering in buying a pioneer elite PRO-1150HD for 2370 but im wondering if its worth waiting for the new ones? i current have a TH-42PX75u panasonic 720p.... i could careless about 1080p although i dont mind it but im more intrested in PQ and non issues?

Hello gus738,

I don't think anyone was trying to ignore you, though all of your questions have been answered in one form or another over the last few weeks on either this thread or one of its predecessors.

My take on the info so far:

9G information is out, mostly confirmed by very knowledgeable members (D-nice, russwong, Robert, many others)

1) 9G panels ARE blacker (claiming up to 80% blacker) but the visible difference between an 8G and a 9G panel will be much less than the difference was between a 7G and an 8G.

2) All 9G panels are 1080p, and are divided into standard, Elite, and Elite Signature lines. All 9Gs share the same panels, but color filters and software are different between the standard and either the Elite or Elite Signature. The Elite Signature has some additional hardware capability such as remote calibration, as well as other "embargoed" powers which our sources cannot yet reveal (but they keep teasing us...) The Elite Signature series is also significantly thinner than the standard Elite, all at a cost of removing the tuner and speakers and stand (they are true MONITORS). The specifics on pricing differentials between Elite and Elite Signature is not yet determined with any certainty, though initial indications specified identical MSRP.

3) Also, no 9G panel has a Cablecard slot.

To answer your specific question about the 1150, to me (YMMV) the 1150 represents a phenomenal value, especially given some retailers' blow-out prices (akin to what you quoted, though I can't say what I paid for mine since it wasn't MSRP and only MSRPs can be published here). If you have a seating distance of over 8 feet and/or you need a cablecard, I would recommend the 1150. I don't know how many are still available, though the East Coast distributors and dealers seem to still be able to get them.

I hope that helps--others please feel free to correct me if I've misstated something.:)

KDD

Yes it is. It's not a good business practice. To some, that $3,000 is a lot, me included. Some can only go a maximum of the non-Elite 50". There are ways of enticing a target group without making the out-group feel bad. To many people, they can't tell the difference between an LG, Panasonic, Samsung and the Pioneer non-Elite. None of those other companies "pride themselves," in making a caste system and then "entice you" as you put it, into buying into the next caste of Elite or Signature Elite brethren. Why would you buy a Pioneer if you can't tell the difference or can barely tell so it's not worth it to you, then have doubts whether you're getting inferior parts that might break sooner? You're more likely to have pre-cognitive dissonance, and switch ship before even buying a ticket.

Pioneer is having financial troubles as it is. And I wonder why?

My point was that it would targert the people that are already set on a pioneer because they feel it's the best. And if they feel the non-elite is better than anything non pioneer, then it will probably only take a little verbage to get them to just go all the way.

I will admit that when I first saw the "grade A" glass post, I was thinking I might as well spend the money for an elite. And if I were in a store needing to make a choice at that moment I probably would have bought the elite. But with more thought I am starting to think it might just be a ploy so that there will be more of a reason to buy an elite.

For the past month I have been reading everyones argument about why buy an 8g elite and not just a non-elite. And really even though I am sure to the right eye the elite looks a good amount better in certain situations, noone really has an explenation as to how much better or really what looks better.

But now when a 9g elite vs 9g non elite argument comes up I will bet the first post will say the elite has "better" glass. Or when asking a salesman at a B&M store, I am sure those will be some of their first words too. And to a person who is ready to make a decision and hasn't really resarched the product that one line will probably stand out the most.

Please stop spreading mis-information. Pioneer WILL NOT assemble PDPs for the US in China or Mexico.I said "may be" not "will be."

THANKS for the info well my current distince is about 7-9ft aprox i have satelite i dont have cable hate cable so im not running that and as far as how wide or heavy i really dont care, im consern about PQ. so D-nice would have the most info ...? i didnt quite understand what you meant on 2) about hardware something with calibrating a remote ? ?? and did you get your PRO-1150HD under 2370? can i pm you? mine will be a brand new in box forthe price i mentioned...

MODS please let me know to replace my price with X X X X X thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738
hey guys i'v been out on the latest news on pioneer tv for a while now i'l be reading as much as possible but i would like to know how are the new pioneers comparing to the current 8th gen pioneeers? all i know is that pioneer claims that theirs 5% more blackness and now theirs 3 editions of pioneer ?

im considering in buying a pioneer elite PRO-1150HD for 2370 but im wondering if its worth waiting for the new ones? i current have a TH-42PX75u panasonic 720p.... i could careless about 1080p although i dont mind it but im more intrested in PQ and non issues?


Hello gus738,

I don't think anyone was trying to ignore you, though all of your questions have been answered in one form or another over the last few weeks on either this thread or one of its predecessors.

My take on the info so far:

9G information is out, mostly confirmed by very knowledgeable members (D-nice, russwong, Robert, many others)

1) 9G panels ARE blacker (claiming up to 80% blacker) but the visible difference between an 8G and a 9G panel will be much less than the difference was between a 7G and an 8G.

2) All 9G panels are 1080p, and are divided into standard, Elite, and Elite Signature lines. All 9Gs share the same panels, but color filters and software are different between the standard and either the Elite or Elite Signature. The Elite Signature has some additional hardware capability such as remote calibration, as well as other "embargoed" powers which our sources cannot yet reveal (but they keep teasing us...) The Elite Signature series is also significantly thinner than the standard Elite, all at a cost of removing the tuner and speakers and stand (they are true MONITORS). The specifics on pricing differentials between Elite and Elite Signature is not yet determined with any certainty, though initial indications specified identical MSRP.

3) Also, no 9G panel has a Cablecard slot.

To answer your specific question about the 1150, to me (YMMV) the 1150 represents a phenomenal value, especially given some retailers' blow-out prices (akin to what you quoted, though I can't say what I paid for mine since it wasn't MSRP and only MSRPs can be published here). If you have a seating distance of over 8 feet and/or you need a cablecard, I would recommend the 1150. I don't know how many are still available, though the East Coast distributors and dealers seem to still be able to get them.

I hope that helps--others please feel free to correct me if I've misstated something.:)

KDD

This is how Pioneer could have worded it:

"Each part in the Pioneer Signature Elite series is retooled, by hand, to meet a higher standard of perfection. Every single glass panel is created specifically for the Signature Elites alone, and mounted by hand. ..."

Wording it in a way like that puts emphasis on many of the steps are done by hand and the glass in the Signature Elites is specifically unique. Without using any words of "selection of parts from which all our plasmas are made."

All PDPs buzz. Some louder than others. It is the nature of how plasma works.Perhaps the BIGGER the panel, the louder it buzzes.

My PRO-150FD emits more buzz, faint, than my TH-50PX50U, none.

That could work, but I feel like they are trying to make people with little research believe that the glass in the elite is just better. Wording it the way they did makes it sound like the glass is actually different in the non elites. Thats where I believe people will take this wording the wrong way and start spreading the word that elites have better glass.

Pricing is so close to the 5010s that it makes no sense to buy the 5010 unless they drop another 15 to 20 % of so.

My point was that it would targert the people that are already set on a pioneer because they feel it's the best. And if they feel the non-elite is better than anything non pioneer, then it will probably only take a little verbage to get them to just go all the way.

I will admit that when I first saw the "grade A" glass post, I was thinking I might as well spend the money for an elite. And if I were in a store needing to make a choice at that moment I probably would have bought the elite. But with more thought I am starting to think it might just be a ploy so that there will be more of a reason to buy an elite.

For the past month I have been reading everyones argument about why buy an 8g elite and not just a non-elite. And really even though I am sure to the right eye the elite looks a good amount better in certain situations, noone really has an explenation as to how much better or really what looks better.

But now when a 9g elite vs 9g non elite argument comes up I will bet the first post will say the elite has "better" glass. Or when asking a salesman at a B&M store, I am sure those will be some of their first words too. And to a person who is ready to make a decision and hasn't really resarched the product that one line will probably stand out the most.

As far as Elite vs Non-Elite, my reason for going with an Elite (the 1150 over the 5080) has to do with color accuracy. I hope the salespeople say "All KUROs have fantastic color and contrast. The Elites have completely accurate color."

For the question Elite vs Elite Signature, I suppose that the best argument for SOME improvement in quality is the matching up of optimum components and prevention of even trivial glitches. For example, either a power supply with an inconsistent power supply voltage curve or a panel with a very few flaws could cause ANY PDP to have slight transient visual defects. To try to eliminate even the least significant of these, all of the parts must come from the "top of the heap".

We need to remember that at some point we hit diminishing returns, especially if we have anything less than perfect vision and perfect sources. There are people out there that spend $100,000 on a pair of speakers. I wouldn't spend that on speakers even if I were an NFL Quarterback with megabucks. :rolleyes:

I CAN HEAR the difference between a surround system costing $350 and one costing $10,000, so I choose to invest in upgraded parts. I could see the improvement in the 8G Elite plasma panel when properly calibrated at my local dealer, so I'm also going for a 9G Elite. I seriously doubt that I will be able to see the difference in a Signature series, so unless they are the same price, I'll stick with the -151 over the -141. Of course if more info comes out on the new features, then I might reconsider.;)

KDD

This is how Pioneer could have worded it:

"Each part in the Pioneer Signature Elite series is retooled, by hand, to meet a higher standard of perfection. Every single glass panel is created specifically for the Signature Elites alone, and mounted by hand. ..."

Wording it in a way like that puts emphasis on many of the steps are done by hand and the glass in the Signature Elites is specifically unique. Without using any words of "selection of parts from which all our plasmas are made."

Someone once said "ignorance is bliss" :D...ALL display mfg'ers grade glass, and just because you have now discovered this little trade secret should not change any person's opinions on Pioneer PDP's. Here's another nugget for you...ALL speaker mfg'er's grade their tweeters, woofers, crossovers, etc. The more higher end speakers within a product line even go as far as to "hand-pick" some of their parts. Geez, now I'm all broke up about learning all these sordid details! Next thing you know, they will be doing the same things to amps, receivers, and heaven forbid...even CARS! Yikes!:D

We need to remember that at some point we hit diminishing returns, especially if we have anything less than perfect vision and perfect sources. There are people out there that spend $100,000 on a pair of speakers. I wouldn't spend that on speakers even if I were an NFL Quarterback with megabucks. :rolleyes:


That is pretty much impossible to say until you have that kind of money rolling in. If you are making 10+ million dollars a year as some players do, it is easy for your perspective of what is affordable to shift to a totally different scale. Once you and your family has enough money for multiple generations why wouldnt you buy something like the nicest speakers you have ever heard? I know I would; I would rather that than having 6 different cars.

That is pretty much impossible to say until you have that kind of money rolling in. If you are making 10+ million dollars a year as some players do, it is easy for your perspective of what is affordable to shift to a totally different scale. Once you and your family has enough money for multiple generations why wouldnt you buy something like the nicest speakers you have ever heard? I know I would; I would rather that than having 6 different cars.

Point taken.:)

I wasn't clear when I posted. I hear quite well, but I simply don't get much out of the $15-30K speaker range when compared to my $6500 speakers. If I had $10M, then I'd buy a plane (and would have to use my speaker $ for gas :D)

the improvement in the picture apparently comes from the electronics (and not the actual plasma panel itself).

Can someone confirm this? I read it about 2 weeks ago and it was a quote from a pioneer manager (or someone like that)

Will be getting a 5020 asap... finally :)

Zack

I'm sure people must be interested in this.... if it hasn't been posted already.

Russ

Not sure that I will be able to afford the Signature, but I really like the idea of offering a monitor without the added cost of those extras. With a home audio system in place I would never use the TV's speakers, so why pay for them? I have digital cable and PVR so I have no need for a tuner. If I want to hang it on the wall, buy a mount. If I want to sit it on a cabinet then buy a stand. Sell me the monitor and let me by what I need separately.

Now, how about a non-Elite monitor? Forget the hand-picking and special gadgets. I simply want a Kuro monitor!

Signature monitor is my choice as well. I always run my full surround system and have a DTV HDR with over the air tuner. I really hope they see the lack of manufacturing expense for tuner, speakers, audio amplification, and stand, as an offset against charging a higher price than the Elite for the hand picked glass and IP address/remote calibration.

John

John

the improvement in the picture apparently comes from the electronics (and not the actual plasma panel itself).

Can someone confirm this? I read it about 2 weeks ago and it was a quote from a pioneer manager (or someone like that)

Will be getting a 5020 asap... finally :)

Zack

I think some changes have been made to the filter as well.

I'm sure people must be interested in this.... if it hasn't been posted already.

Russ

Russ, you are my hero! http://forum.blu-ray.com/images/smilies/imported/bowdown.gif

Look at the chart where it says warranty

http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POCEN/Press+Room/Press+Releases/%28clone+of%29+Pioneer+Broadens+2008+Elite+KURO+Line+of+Disp lays+with+New+Signature+Series+of+Monitors

Well well wel... looks like Pioneer Canada changed a few things and your link
doesn't work anymore. Check this out, the elite MSRPs are removed!!

http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POCEN/Press+Room/Press+Releases/Pioneer+Broadens+2008+Elite+KURO+Line+of+Displays+with+New+S ignature+Series+of+Monitors

Well, for non-elite fans, the prices are still there and match the U.S. MSRP.

Did anybody else notice the ISF-Auto. What is that suppposed to mean?
Elite vs non-Elite 9G
What does the Elite have over the non-elites?
*2 year warranty instead of 1
- Improved ››Elite Color Filter for enhanced contrast in bright environments
- ISFccc Calibration Ready for professional customization of plasma ››picture according to personal preferences for contrast, tint, color as well as room conditions for both day and nighttime viewing. Includes:
Independent Gamma Control (R / G / B) for heightened color ––calibration
- Remote Control – Illuminated / Preset Mode / Learning Mode
- A/V Selection Memory – 10 options for viewing preferences:
››Optimum / Performance / Sports / Movie / PURE / Game / Standard / ISF-Day / ISF-Night / ISF-Auto (PC input: only Standard)
- Intelligent Mode (Off / Mode 1 / Mode 2)
- Picture Detail Settings* – DRE Picture (Off / High / Mid / Low), ››Black Level (Off / On), ACL (Off / On), Enhancer Mode (1 / 2 / 3), Gamma (1 / 2 / 3)
- Color Temperature Adjustment – 5 settings (High / Mid-High / ››Mid / Mid-Low / Low)
- Color Temperature Manual Adjustment ››
- Color Management››
- Color Space (1 / 2)››
-3 DYC (Off / High / Mid / Low)››
- I-P Mode (1 / 2 / 3)
- IR Repeater

Does anybody know what that is

And the non-elites...

As Roman mentioned the other day and Alex has confirmed, we do have pricing for both elites and non-elites.

Russ

What does the Elite have over the non-elites?
*2 year warranty instead of 1
- Improved ››Elite Color Filter for enhanced contrast in bright environments
- ISFccc Calibration Ready for professional customization of plasma ››picture according to personal preferences for contrast, tint, color as well as room conditions for both day and nighttime viewing. Includes:
Independent Gamma Control (R / G / B) for heightened color ––calibration
- Remote Control – Illuminated / Preset Mode / Learning Mode
- A/V Selection Memory – 10 options for viewing preferences:
››Optimum / Performance / Sports / Movie / PURE / Game / Standard / ISF-Day / ISF-Night / ISF-Auto (PC input: only Standard)
- Intelligent Mode (Off / Mode 1 / Mode 2)
- Picture Detail Settings* – DRE Picture (Off / High / Mid / Low), ››Black Level (Off / On), ACL (Off / On), Enhancer Mode (1 / 2 / 3), Gamma (1 / 2 / 3)
- Color Temperature Adjustment – 5 settings (High / Mid-High / ››Mid / Mid-Low / Low)
- Color Temperature Manual Adjustment ››
- Color Management››
- Color Space (1 / 2)››
-3 DYC (Off / High / Mid / Low)››
- I-P Mode (1 / 2 / 3)
- IR Repeater

And the non-elites...

As Roman mentioned the other day and Alex has confirmed, we do have pricing for both elites and non-elites.

Russ

Russ, thank you for the PDF Files on these units.

Alex

What does the Elite have over the non-elites?
*2 year warranty instead of 1
- Improved ››Elite Color Filter for enhanced contrast in bright environments
- ISFccc Calibration Ready for professional customization of plasma ››picture according to personal preferences for contrast, tint, color as well as room conditions for both day and nighttime viewing. Includes:
Independent Gamma Control (R / G / B) for heightened color ––calibration
- Remote Control – Illuminated / Preset Mode / Learning Mode
- A/V Selection Memory – 10 options for viewing preferences:
››Optimum / Performance / Sports / Movie / PURE / Game / Standard / ISF-Day / ISF-Night / ISF-Auto (PC input: only Standard)
- Intelligent Mode (Off / Mode 1 / Mode 2)
- Picture Detail Settings* – DRE Picture (Off / High / Mid / Low), ››Black Level (Off / On), ACL (Off / On), Enhancer Mode (1 / 2 / 3), Gamma (1 / 2 / 3)
- Color Temperature Adjustment – 5 settings (High / Mid-High / ››Mid / Mid-Low / Low)
- Color Temperature Manual Adjustment ››
- Color Management››
- Color Space (1 / 2)››
-3 DYC (Off / High / Mid / Low)››
- I-P Mode (1 / 2 / 3)
- IR Repeater

Have a 2007 Elite vs. 2008 Elite comparison per chance?

Have a 2007 Elite vs. 2008 Elite comparison per chance?

Should be pretty much the same:)

Should be pretty much the same:)... CLARIFIED!!!Edit: Thank God. I was getting pretty concerned there. Pretty close to the same features as the 8g (in terms of differences between non-elite and elite).
Sigh...*Still waiting for the ISF auto *

Uh you're ;);)joking... Right.:o:oOr are you being dead serious:(:(I think the 9g (obviously) will win :D:D:cool::cool:


Now don't freak, Colsfreak...I think he's just saying that the 9G Elite has similar features to the 8G Elites.

Have a 2007 Elite vs. 2008 Elite comparison per chance?

There's another thread that has the 2007 Elite vs non-elite comparison.

The 1140HD owners thread that I started has the 2006 Elite vs non-elite comparison.

If you can't find the 2007 Elite one, let me know, I have it some where, but since I didn't get the 8G right away, and that owners thread got messy, I didn't bother posting it.

My pleasure, just trying to share info....

Russ, thank you for the PDF Files on these units.

Alex

Are those brochures on Pioneer's website as well?

Are those brochures on Pioneer's website as well?

Not yet

Uh you're ;);)joking... Right.:o:oOr are you being dead serious:(:(I think the 9g (obviously) will win :D:D:cool::cool:

I was talking about the advantages of the Elites, sorry :)

There's another thread that has the 2007 Elite vs non-elite comparison.

The 1140HD owners thread that I started has the 2006 Elite vs non-elite comparison.

If you can't find the 2007 Elite one, let me know, I have it some where, but since I didn't get the 8G right away, and that owners thread got messy, I didn't bother posting it.

Sorry Russ, I phrased that wrong.
I'm looking for a comparison (besides the obvious black-level improvement) between the 110FD and the new 111FD.

D-Nice, might as well update Post #1 since more info is out... :D

Another Memory, ISF-Auto*.. ;)

And Yes, ControlCAL's 9G Profiles do support it (per Input, as with ISF-Day and ISF-Night)....

*Regions: North America, Europe (HD), Australia

-Shawn

You both say it's normal for buzzing AND that the reports of it are "miniscule".

So if it's so miniscule but it's uniform across the board in all panels. Either people are too lazy to report it, it's not noticed by most people, people don't know how to report it, or it doesn't exist in the majority of panels.

Which is it?

(or how to you reconcile buzzing being normal but barely reported??)

AND will the Signature series have the same problem? I guess there are some things Super Grade A glass and hand crafting can't fix. :P

Endless! Every plasma I've had buzzes. Now the difference is the buzzing is so low, that you must be either on top of the plasma or have virtually no ambient sound in the room. Neither condition is typical. May I recommend a nice LCD?

Russ, I continue to struggle with the concept of Grade A glass vs. the best of Grade A glass. Bear with my hypothetical numbers to show my point:
If in the past, the top 5% of all glass went into the elite and now the top 2% will go into the Signature, doesn't that mean that the very best glass that used to go into the Elite is no longer available to it, meaning some Elite sets will take a hit in quality.

Yes, in theory, those who were lucky enough to get the cream-of-the-crop glass randomly assembled in their TV won't get that chance with the 9G.

I look at this this way, using your numbers. In the past, if you bought an Elite, you had a 40% chance of getting "Signature-worthy" glass at an "Elite" price. Now, you more likely have a 0% chance of getting Signature quality at an Elite price. If you want the better grade glass, you will have to pay more for it.

Another poster said you might be better off buying another brand, such as Samsung, who may not pick out better glass for higher-end models. In that case, if one wants the best glass they can get, they would have to buy 20 units on average to get one in the top 5%. Wouldn't it make more sense to give consumers the option of paying more for guaranteed better quality? The same could be said about the Elite distinctions. Some people will think that spending X more than a non-Elite to get in the 95th percentile will be fine. Others will spend the X+Y more to be in the 98th percentile.

Endless! Every plasma I've had buzzes. Now the difference is the buzzing is so low, that you must be either on top of the plasma or have virtually no ambient sound in the room. Neither condition is typical. May I recommend a nice LCD?

My current CRT direct view buzzes too! I don't like it! Boo. :mad:Even though I can't hear it unless I go behind the TV and put my head near neckboard.

Well well wel... looks like Pioneer Canada changed a few things and your link
doesn't work anymore. Check this out, the elite MSRPs are removed!!


Wow, Russ, Roman?.. Anyone hear anything about the Elite Canadian pricing?

They were listed the same as the USA prices this morning at pioneers canadian website, and this evening they have suddenly been changed to 'TBA'.. It doesn't look good. :( didnt i hear something about a pio canada rep posting that they would be at par? :confused:

I have not heard anything but thats why people from Europe and Canada buy from USA. But seriously I am sure something will show up shortly.

I was reading the 9G Elite literature Russ Wong posted. Am I understanding this correctly?

PureCinema Smooth Film Motion mode takes 3:2 encoded 1080i material and then interpolates that to a "true" 60 hz adding interpolated frames? ( Sort of like Sony MotionFlow technology?)

Standard 3:2 will extract the 3:2 from 1080i frames and then put together the progressive frames in the repeated 3/2 order, but losslessly without doing either a bob/weave or adaptive deinterlacing?

Advanced Pure Cinema 3:3 which must be fed a 1080p24 signal and then triples the frames to show 72 hz?

Which means there's no 480i or 1080i mode that inverse telecines the frames, removes the duplicates and frame triples to 3:3 at 72hz?

If so, that means I'm going to have to keep my Lumagen VisionPro HDP and let it reverse telecine my sources which are 1080i or 480i and output 1080p24 direct. :(

I thought about this all day ... this is a marketing mistake!!!

If the best parts are put in the Signature ... and the second best parts are put in the Elite ... then the remaining 'acceptable' parts are used in the non-Elites ... so for one of the most expensive plasma TVs on the market, you get the hand me downs of the hand me downs ... All the other brands will have a field day with this against the 5020' and 6020's ("Why buy twice rejected parts from Pioneer, when Brand X only sells you their BEST!!!")

Mercedes-Benz has the AMG Series ... Mercedes are not made from parts rejected by AMG, but AMG is value 'added' to Mercedes

This marketing 'wisdom' makes the Signature sound GREAT, but makes me think about buying from another company :mad: I hope this changes!!!You do realize that ALL...every single one....of plasma and LCD manufacturers do this right? Panasonic does it, Samsung does it, LG does it, Sharp does it...on and on and on.

You can attempt to make this a big deal if you want, but everyone does it.

So why don't people do group purchases anymore ? Can't some of us get together and purchase 10 or 20 panels together at once and get closer to dealer pricing ????

I ask myself this question all the time. Theres even a power buys section that the club members have access to, yet there aren't any for something like this.

As D-Nice just said every pdp and LCD manufacturer rates their panels. Further, it only makes sense for Pioneer to give the very best glass to the Elite models.

Most importantly considering all of the panels that pass QC the actual quality difference is very minor. Pioneer's QA has very high standards.

-Robert

Yes it is. It's not a good business practice. To some, that $3,000 is a lot, me included. Some can only go a maximum of the non-Elite 50". There are ways of enticing a target group without making the out-group feel bad. To many people, they can't tell the difference between an LG, Panasonic, Samsung and the Pioneer non-Elite. None of those other companies "pride themselves," in making a caste system and then "entice you" as you put it, into buying into the next caste of Elite or Signature Elite brethren. Why would you buy a Pioneer if you can't tell the difference or can barely tell so it's not worth it to you, then have doubts whether you're getting inferior parts that might break sooner? You're more likely to have pre-cognitive dissonance, and switch ship before even buying a ticket.

Pioneer is having financial troubles as it is. And I wonder why?

If you never heard of Pioneer before. You go to Best Buy. You see this uber expensive Pioneer Elite Signature. The salesman says, "That's our Pioneer Elite Signature. It's better than all the other Pioneers, even regular Elite. The parts are hand-picked to ensure you get the perfect plasma." Customer, "So the regular Elite and non-Elite don't have hand picked parts too?" Salesman, "No they don't, that's what makes the Signature special." Customer, "I might get a non-perfect plasma if I don't buy the Signature, why does it need to be hand-picked to be sure of quality? Do you have any other brands which don't have any hand-picked to ensure I get a quality plasma?" Salesman, "Sure, here's our Samsung...."

It's sort of "admitting" in a backhanded manner, Pioneer doesn't have good enough manufacturing techniques to handle a premium plasma and must hand-select the Signature. The non-Elites are already expensive. As a regular joe-six-pack with lots of money, you'd not realize what the Signatures are really for. Real smart Pioneer!What is going on with everyone?????

I don't see anyone bitchin' and complaining about Panasonic glass when the best glass goes in their 850 series...then 800u series....then 85 series...then 80 series.

When Sony had the Qualia line (same premise as the Signature series) I didn't see anyone bitchin' and complained then.

Lets look at the CPU industry.... I don't see anyone bitchin' and complaining about getting a 2.6Ghz chip knowing full well it was a rejected 3.0Ghz part.

Diamonds....E cost more than G or H.

Wake up people, This is reality.

guys i dont want to bother much but can anyone fill me in? where d-nice when you need him :confused:5x better blacks, better colors, and cheaper MSRPs :)

Hello gus738,

I don't think anyone was trying to ignore you, though all of your questions have been answered in one form or another over the last few weeks on either this thread or one of its predecessors.

My take on the info so far:

9G information is out, mostly confirmed by very knowledgeable members (D-nice, russwong, Robert, many others)

1) 9G panels ARE blacker (claiming up to 80% blacker) but the visible difference between an 8G and a 9G panel will be much less than the difference was between a 7G and an 8G.

2) All 9G panels are 1080p, and are divided into standard, Elite, and Elite Signature lines. All 9Gs share the same panels, but color filters and software are different between the standard and either the Elite or Elite Signature. The Elite Signature has some additional hardware capability such as remote calibration, as well as other "embargoed" powers which our sources cannot yet reveal (but they keep teasing us...) The Elite Signature series is also significantly thinner than the standard Elite, all at a cost of removing the tuner and speakers and stand (they are true MONITORS). The specifics on pricing differentials between Elite and Elite Signature is not yet determined with any certainty, though initial indications specified identical MSRP.

3) Also, no 9G panel has a Cablecard slot.

To answer your specific question about the 1150, to me (YMMV) the 1150 represents a phenomenal value, especially given some retailers' blow-out prices (akin to what you quoted, though I can't say what I paid for mine since it wasn't MSRP and only MSRPs can be published here). If you have a seating distance of over 8 feet and/or you need a cablecard, I would recommend the 1150. I don't know how many are still available, though the East Coast distributors and dealers seem to still be able to get them.

I hope that helps--others please feel free to correct me if I've misstated something.:)

KDD^^^ What he said :D

And the non-elites...

As Roman mentioned the other day , we do have pricing for both elites and non-elites.

Russ

Russ, how about some 111 and 151 spec sheets :D
I need to start reading closer, I got it after som help

You do realize that ALL...every single one....of plasma and LCD manufacturers do this right? Panasonic does it, Samsung does it, LG does it, Sharp does it...

I understand ... so to compare apples to apples ... the Samsung model that will get Samsung's best parts competes against the 20, Elite or Signature?

I would say 20 but, thats just me :) I dont think you can really make that claim

I understand ... so to compare apples to apples ... the Samsung model that will get Samsung's best parts competes against the 20, Elite or Signature?What ever their top of the line model is (750 series?????) would go against the Elites.

But then again, I would not place Samsung in the same tier as Pioneer.

Russ,

One small detail I noticed in the pdf's was that the Elite 9G state "acrylic" bezel while the non-elites do not. Didn't the 8G models have acrylic for the 768p models and glass for the 1080p models?

5x better blacks, better colors, and cheaper MSRPs :)


thanks although i was hoping in dept explanation lol ..... in short lower msrp but that doesnt mean lower in street prices or employee discount price?

im quoted right under 2400 for the PRO-1150HD and im mainly about PQ vs size or resolution.... i currently have a 42" panasonic 720p and my distince is 7-9ft but i cant get a smaller pio cuz theyr out...

do you think the new pio are going to come close to this price as far as employee price or something simlir?

or is it worth to just get the 8g?

Not for a long long time

I would say 20 but, thats just me :) I dont think you can really make that claim

If the Pioneer model that is comparable to the Samsung model (price, size, 1080p, etc) has the 'best' Samsung parts ... where the similar Pioneer has the 'picked-over' parts. Most people will choose the Samsung ... or as a lot have posted here, upgrade to the Elite

Either way it hurts 20 sales ... which is their new gateway product

Wow, Russ, Roman?.. Anyone hear anything about the Elite Canadian pricing?

They were listed the same as the USA prices this morning at pioneers canadian website, and this evening they have suddenly been changed to 'TBA'.. It doesn't look good. :( didnt i hear something about a pio canada rep posting that they would be at par? :confused:

Indeed, a Pio Canada senior representative confirmed to me on another forum that prices between the USA and Canada should be on par (if you can read french, see his post at http://www.quebecaudio.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=16158&view=findpost&p=200367 )

Let's wait and see. I cannot imagine a delta of 1500$ between MSRPs as we saw between the Elite 60" sold in the USA and the one sold in Canada.

Pepin

The Signature Series is strictly designed for high end integrated systems, the higher end the better as these monitors have very advanced technology opportunities.

Some advanced technology features include; more ISF calibration settings, much more. Dedicated color modes, so you can display just the blue channel, more accurate than using the blue filter in front of the calibrators eye. Very brisk support and use for IP applications and scheduled email notification.

This display is a very controllable networked device that opens up endless creative advanced applications, only limited by the integrators imagination the end users requirements and the integrators skill level. Remote surveillance cameras monitoring and controling, email notification containing calibration settings changes are just two ideas we discussed.

Pioneer has made the tools available and it's up to the users and professional integrators and programmers to unleash the power of this device.

-Robert

What is going on with everyone?????

I don't see anyone bitchin' and complaining about Panasonic glass when the best glass goes in their 850 series...then 800u series....then 85 series...then 80 series.

When Sony had the Qualia line (same premise as the Signature series) I didn't see anyone bitchin' and complained then.

Lets look at the CPU industry.... I don't see anyone bitchin' and complaining about getting a 2.6Ghz chip knowing full well it was a rejected 3.0Ghz part.

Diamonds....E cost more than G or H.

Wake up people, This is reality.

Kind of like people bitchin' the Cayman isn't a 911...... it's still a hell of a sports car, a true Porsche, and leaps and bounds above a Miata (no offense to Miata owners)

John

What ever their top of the line model is (750 series?????) would go against the Elites.

But them again, I would not place Samsung in the same tier as Pioneer.Technically, it would go against the elites. In reality, it probably goes against the 8Gs XX80 series or the XX10 series. BTW, it says them again... not then again. On a really side note, has anybody heard about any new runcos that may come out? These might be the only competitors to pioneer this year (if even that. and nobody will pay that much price differential unless they just want to find the most expensive)

The Signature Series is strictly designed for high end integrated systems, the higher end the better as these monitors have very advanced technology opportunities.

Some advanced technology features include; more ISF calibration settings, much more. Dedicated color modes, so you can display just the blue channel, more accurate than using the blue filter in front of the calibrators eye. Very brisk support and use for IP applications and scheduled email notification.

This display is a very controllable networked device that opens up endless creative advanced applications, only limited by the integrators imagination the end users requirements and the integrators skill level. Remote surveillance cameras monitoring and controling, email notification containing calibration settings changes are just two ideas we discussed.

Pioneer has made the tools available and it's up to the users and professional integrators and programmers to unleash the power of this device.

-RobertROBERT!!! YOU POSTED!! I had to read that multiple times just to soak it all in, but I think I just died inside. Wow... WOW... I think that may have every feature ever(does it have full CMS control??). I could use that very well as security. Even at home, I could watch TV and have it alert me when somebody shows up on cameras. Did you have any demonstration (I mean get to use it yourself) on the using of this amazing thing? What more ISF calibration things are there? Can you clarify much, much more on the remote calibration? Sorry for the loads of questions, but I need to know for future education of AVSers.

If the Pioneer model that is comparable to the Samsung model (price, size, 1080p, etc) has the 'best' Samsung parts ... where the similar Pioneer has the 'picked-over' parts. Most people will choose the Samsung ... or as a lot have posted here, upgrade to the Elite

Either way it hurts 20 sales ... which is their new gateway productWhat? So you really think Samsung doesn't pick over parts? Are you kidding me?

This is really starting to get silly.

What? So you really think Samsung doesn't pick over parts? Are you kidding me?

This is really starting to get silly.


D lets not have this turn in to this http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1029639
lol

Russ,

One small detail I noticed in the pdf's was that the Elite 9G state "acrylic" bezel while the non-elites do not. Didn't the 8G models have acrylic for the 768p models and glass for the 1080p models?On the 8G, all 1080p models has the acrylic bezel. The 768p models had the regular plastic bezels.

D lets not have this turn in to this http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1029639
lolI agree.

This might be getting a little silly, but I completely understand why people are concerned. I'm about to drop a LARGE amount of money on a 5020 (or maybe 6020?), but given the drop in MSRP from 8G and all the talk of the Signature Elite Series, I'm a little worried that somehow the 5010 might be the better product. Is Pioneer designing the standard series to be a third-tier line that's more in-line with all the "other" plasmas, or will it continue to be the "best" in the line, with the Elite and Signature being all that much the better?

Yes, I'm new. And yes, I'm naive. So if I'm completely wrong, please be gentle.

I'm going out for dinner and hopefully not as many drinks as last night. See you all later.

-Robert

On the 8G, all 1080p models has the acrylic bezel. The 768p models had the regular plastic bezels.Cool, I thought the 1080p was glass. I found the new bezels to be more scratch resistent and flatter (less wavyness). Good to know they kept that design.

Cheers

Indeed, a Pio Canada senior representative confirmed to me on another forum that prices between the USA and Canada should be on par (if you can read french, see his post at http://www.quebecaudio.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=16158&view=findpost&p=200367 )

Let's wait and see. I cannot imagine a delta of 1500$ between MSRPs as we saw between the Elite 60" sold in the USA and the one sold in Canada.

Pepin

Yeah, but does their comments also include Elite TV's? It seems the non-elites
are still listed as on par.

This might be getting a little silly, but I completely understand why people are concerned. I'm about to drop a LARGE amount of money on a 5020 (or maybe 6020?), but given the drop in MSRP from 8G and all the talk of the Signature Elite Series, I'm a little worried that somehow the 5010 might be the better product. Is Pioneer designing the standard series to be a third-tier line that's more in-line with all the "other" plasmas, or will it continue to be the "best" in the line, with the Elite and Signature being all that much the better?

Yes, I'm new. And yes, I'm naive. So if I'm completely wrong, please be gentle.

There is no way the new models will not be better than 8gs. You can quote me later if you like.

Just wanted to say this to all folks interested in a Pioneer TV.... Go for it. Pioneer's 9Gs are simply the very best TV on the market.

-Robert

I'm going out for dinner and hopefully not as many drinks as last night. See you all later.

-Robert

Have one for me please :cool:

Have one for me please :cool:Or don't, just so he can post more info when he gets back. Have lobster for me:)... or a filet :cool:

There is no way the new models will not be better than 8gs. You can quote me later if you like.


roman you got me confused are you saying that the new 9g kuro are not going to be better or are you joking?

Can someone please tell me what happen to "user mode" on the 9g's that the 8g's had?

Even though Im going Elite and will use "pure mode" 95% of the time, I did enjoy "user mode" for my daytime watching.

Does "performance mode" replace "user" on the 9g's or some other mode?

Just wanted to say this to all folks interested in a Pioneer TV.... Go for it. Pioneer's 9Gs are simply the very best TV on the market.

-Robert

And THAT is why this is the fastest growing thread in AVS history (as far as I can tell).:D

roman you got me confused are you saying that the new 9g kuro are not going to be better or are you joking?

They will be better IMO and since the MSRP is lower it just makes sense now.

Does "performance mode" replace "user" on the 9g's?Yes

Or don't, just so he can post more info when he gets back. Have lobster for me:)... or a filet :cool:

If you would have said have one ON me than he might come back ;)

This might be getting a little silly, but I completely understand why people are concerned. I'm about to drop a LARGE amount of money on a 5020 (or maybe 6020?), but given the drop in MSRP from 8G and all the talk of the Signature Elite Series, I'm a little worried that somehow the 5010 might be the better product. Is Pioneer designing the standard series to be a third-tier line that's more in-line with all the "other" plasmas, or will it continue to be the "best" in the line, with the Elite and Signature being all that much the better?

Yes, I'm new. And yes, I'm naive. So if I'm completely wrong, please be gentle.Grading has been going on forever. This stuff isn't brand new.

If you are worried about grading, you should not purchase any electronic item.

I can't beleive how hard it is for me to choose between the elite and non elite. I always want the best but I really only watch sports and maybe some sitcoms every once in a while. I barely watch movies and I barely watch tv in general. I just can't decide if the price difference is worth it for me even though I know the elite is going to be better.

If you are even thinking about having your set pro calibrated you should for sure go Elite (if budget permits)

If the Pioneer model that is comparable to the Samsung model (price, size, 1080p, etc) has the 'best' Samsung parts ... where the similar Pioneer has the 'picked-over' parts. Most people will choose the Samsung ... or as a lot have posted here, upgrade to the Elite

Either way it hurts 20 sales ... which is their new gateway product

No, sorry, I do not agree.

First, it comes down to overall quality, and even the panels in the regular line will have to meet a specific QC standard. If the panels in the regular line are to a stricter standard then the panels in the top samsung line, are you still going to choose the samsung.

Second, if someone wants a pioneer and they trust pioneer, they will not just get a samsung b/c they cannot have the best pioneer. If that was true how would BMW sell the 5 and 3 series, or Mercedes the E and C class? They are not the 7 and the S, and you could have the best acura or infiniti for the price of a 5 or E, or the best Honda or Toyota car for less than the 3 or the C, but many people choose the BMW and Mercedes, b/c they would still rather have the cheapest Mercedes than the best Honda.

Get it?

There's been "a lot of water under the bridge" since this posting. There are further qualifications, protestations and clarifications that could be made, but I think most forum attendees are tired of this at this point. And I'm not some self-appointed gadfly on this issue to serve the interests of current and future owners of Kuro's. Hey, I love the PQ of Kuro panels and just hope the 9G Elite I end up with is of the low b___ ing variety.

Hmmm, let's see how we should go forward from here.....

"panel buzz was to attempt to discredit the messenger and minimize the problem from the outset" - I highly suggest you do your research before you attempt to post claims like this. There are 2...count with me....2 types of buzz on Pioneer displays. One was from the power supply and the other was from the panel itself. The 9G Kuros, and some of the later batches of 8G Kuros, have new power supplies. I posted this info about 1.5 weeks ago. The buzz from the actual panel is inherent to the lack of an additional front glass covering (replaced by the bonded color filter) and cell firing technique. Panel buzz is NOT going anywhere. Pioneer has a notice within the documentation that comes with the Kuros (it’s actually taped to the front of the PDP) regarding panel buzz.

Also, I personally notified my contact of the buzz reports last year. So please do not attempt to tell me I'm trying to minimize the. The number of actual reported buzzing panels is miniscule per Pioneer's investigations.

So once you digest what I just post, please explain how Pioneer or myself aren't getting the truth out about panel buzz????

If you are even thinking about having your set pro calibrated you should for sure go Elite (if budget permits)

Why do you say that? If I get the non elite calibrated it should be close to a standard elite no? And of course the elite will be much better if it is calibrated but now I am just back to step one. If both are calibrated wouldn't the difference between them be the same as if they were both uncalibrated?

Grading has been going on forever. This stuff isn't brand new.

If you are worried about grading, you should not purchase any electronic item.

I think what the people who are worried are trying to say is that for the same price as the entry level Pioneer, they can get the top tier Samsung or Panasonic with the best graded glass. What I think they want assurance on is that the QA of Pioneer is such that their lowest graded glass is still likely to be as good as the best glass used by a lower tier brands. Although I think maybe too much stock is being put into glass grading. I have no doubt that the sum total of all of a 5020 parts will add up to better PQ than the sum total of any other HDTVs parts on the market in 2008, except the Elite and the Signature Pioneers. But that coming from me means very little. I think they want to hear this from someone like Russwong or Robert or you.

When does the secrecy on the Signatures lifts?

If you would have said have one ON me than he might come back ;)If only I had a paypal account.... ;););););) He just better come back.

I think what the people who are worried are trying to say is that for the same price as the entry level Pioneer, they can get the top tier Samsung or Panasonic with the best graded glass. What I think they want assurance on is that the QA of Pioneer is such that their lowest graded glass is still likely to be as good as the best glass used by a lower tier brands. Although I think maybe too much stock is being put into glass grading. I have no doubt that the sum total of all of a 5020 parts will add up to better PQ than the sum total of any other HDTVs parts on the market in 2008, except the Elite and the Signature Pioneers. But that coming from me means very little. I think they want to hear this from someone like Russwong or Robert or you.But the common people joining the forum JUST for buying advice (and about 2 posts) will not usually know who D-Nice (or others) is. They may not trust them like us regulars. Thinking in another box here...

I think what the people who are worried are trying to say is that for the same price as the entry level Pioneer, they can get the top tier Samsung or Panasonic with the best graded glass.Ok, so what? You're assuming that both company's QA processes are equal, PQ is equal, and quality of parts are equal. They are not.

What I think they want assurance on is that the QA of Pioneer is such that their lowest graded glass is still likely to be as good as the best glass used by a lower tier brand.This has been going on since day one at Pioneer and all display manufacturing plants. I'm not sure what additional assurances they need.

I think they want to hear this from someone like Russwong or Robert or you.Pioneer's history of quality doesn't need our blessing or reassurances :)

So, with the Signature series an ISF calibrator could program my TV from anywhere?

Maybe I am wrong but seeing how I use a D*TV cables box and my stereo for the sound, is there any reason I would not want a Signature series over the Elite??

So, with the Signature series an ISF calibrator could program my TV from anywhere?

Maybe I am wrong but seeing how I use a D*TV cables box and my stereo for the sound, is there any reason I would not want a Signature series over the Elite??They could, but the hints point to that it won't be as good as on-site.

Ok, so what? You're assuming that both company's QA processes are equal, PQ is equal, and quality of parts are equal. They are not.

This has been going on since day one at Pioneer and all display manufacturing plants. I'm not sure what additional assurances they need.


I not not assuming that at all. Based on what I'm reading, others are assuming that. I'm just trying to be an interpreter here, as sometimes those who know a lot, and have known it for a long time find it difficult to remember what it is like not to know. You know this stuff already. I know it already, only because I found this site and read previous posts by you and other knowledgeable posters, so I get where the new guys are coming from. I also get where you are coming from. As a teacher, I've had to answer the same damn questions 800 times. After awhile, it does get very frustrating. That said, if I try to answer for you, so you don't have to repeat yourself for the 800th time, it just doesn't mean very much. Pioneer may not need your blessing, but for many people here, they know about Pioneer quality not because they believe Pioneer press releases, but because they have come to be impressed by what posters like you and russwong and Robert and others have said about Pioneer quality. I know it has opened my eyes to what sets Pioneer apart.

Why do you say that? If I get the non elite calibrated it should be close to a standard elite no? And of course the elite will be much better if it is calibrated but now I am just back to step one. If both are calibrated wouldn't the difference between them be the same as if they were both uncalibrated?

OK I will put this out there :) It seriously depends on the individual and the situation. I talk to so many people and the answer is different every time. I just dont want people to think I am one sided for Elite, I recommend a product on a case by case basis.

No, sorry, I do not agree.

First, it comes down to overall quality, and even the panels in the regular line will have to meet a specific QC standard. If the panels in the regular line are to a stricter standard then the panels in the top samsung line, are you still going to choose the samsung.

Second, if someone wants a pioneer and they trust pioneer, they will not just get a samsung b/c they cannot have the best pioneer. If that was true how would BMW sell the 5 and 3 series, or Mercedes the E and C class? They are not the 7 and the S, and you could have the best acura or infiniti for the price of a 5 or E, or the best Honda or Toyota car for less than the 3 or the C, but many people choose the BMW and Mercedes, b/c they would still rather have the cheapest Mercedes than the best Honda.

Get it?

I agree with your first point ... but that is assuming Pioneer has higher QC standards

Your second point is my "bad marketing" point ... I would not buy a Mercedes-Benz C-Class if their marketing was, "We hand-pick only the best parts for the S-Class, and of the remaining parts, we hand-pick those for the E-Class ... and what is left-over is put in the C's"

I would not buy a Mercedes-Benz C-Class if their marketing was, "We hand-pick only the best parts for the S-Class, and of the remaining parts, we hand-pick those for the E-Class ... and what is left-over is put in the C's"

First, I don't think anyone markets quite that way - rather, what they do is extoll the cherry-picking they do for their top-of-the-line models, and the rest is left to our imaginations.

Second, even if Mercedes did say that about the C-class, are you saying you'd purchase a Pontiac instead? Because that's basically the difference level we're talking about here when comparing competitors' models to entry-level Kuros.

Ok since we are all talking about the S class here there is no reason to argue :)

Why do you say that? If I get the non elite calibrated it should be close to a standard elite no? And of course the elite will be much better if it is calibrated but now I am just back to step one. If both are calibrated wouldn't the difference between them be the same as if they were both uncalibrated?

Not so. One of the distinguishing features of the Elites is the increased ability to be calibrated to an "exact" color space. An ISF Calibrator can do much more with an Elite panel than with a regular one. (Of course, even the 8Gs "Movie" mode without any customization is superior to many competitors' best efforts, but we are all "Purists" here (pun intended) so we want the best of the best and that's only possible with an Elite).

Good luck with your decision.

KDD

I'm getting a 5020, and will be totally happy with it. Sure I'd love to have an elite, but to me the extra $ is too much. I've been watching a 27" sony wega CRT for the last 6 years or so and it works fine. It wasn't best tv on the market at the time I bought it either. Heck I was in college and was livin on ramen and cheap beer. Everyone is different, especially their financial situations. If we all absolutely had to have the very best car, would we even talk about mercedes? My folks have a benz c-class and I think its a damn nice car. I have 2 chevys and I like em.

To me the 5020 represents a great value for a number of reasons.
1. It will have a better picture than all LCD's
2. It will have a better picture than all other plasmas except the Pio elites and signature
3. I can buy one for less than any Pio dealer around here is selling the 5010 for.

are you saying you'd purchase a Pontiac instead?

I drive a Mercedes-Benz AMG G55K ... so no, I would not drive a Pontiac :o

I will end this 'bad marketing' thread ... since those who get what I am saying, get it

(Pioneer reads this, they will get it too)

What ever their top of the line model is (750 series?????) would go against the Elites.

But then again, I would not place Samsung in the same tier as Pioneer.
In my opinion, samsung degrades the word plasma...they should not be allowed to manufacture plasmas (for that matter anyone except pioneer and Panasonic) :)

I drive a Mercedes-Benz AMG G55K ... so no, I would not drive a Pontiac :o

I will end this 'bad marketing' thread ... since those who get what I am saying, get it

(Panasonic reads this, they will get it too)

I don't think your panasonic argument works. Even if panasonic did come out and say look pioneer is giving you hand me downs and we are giving you the best we have. How are they going to explain that pioneer hand me down parts look better than their best. At the end of the day the consumer just needs to look at the picture to decide whats better.

Much adieu about nothing

I not not assuming that at all. Based on what I'm reading, others are assuming that.Ahh, cool.

So, with the Signature series an ISF calibrator could program my TV from anywhere?

Maybe I am wrong but seeing how I use a D*TV cables box and my stereo for the sound, is there any reason I would not want a Signature series over the Elite??
I'm starting to wonder the same thing myself. Like you, I've pre-ordered the 151FD, but after Robert's post I'm salivating at the posibilities of a monitor with advanced networking capabilities.

Originally I was telling myself that an August timeframe was too long to wait for the 141FD's. But if in fact the 151FD is going to be delayed as Robert said until August anyway, why not wait for the 141FD? That is, unless the 141FD is going to be delayed also so that it's release date is pushed past August.

Since we're on the subject, I hope Pioneer's quality for the 9G is better than Mercedes' track record the past few years. :)

Since we're on the subject, I hope Pioneer's quality for the 9G is better than Mercedes' track record the past few years. :)

Here we go :) I have both Merecedes and BMW and which one brakes more? BMW, sorry guys I just had to :)

Here we go :) I have both Merecedes and BMW and which one brakes more? BMW, sorry guys I just had to :)

My BMW goes in monday for a ticking noise coming from the engine, I think it is a lifter.:)

Hi Roman,

I am very confused on this whole Elite vs Non-Elite debate. The moment I think I have made my mind, I read more posts on these forums and end up changing my decision. For me, the 60inch Pioneer is going in the family room (no basements in CA), this will be used for watching primarily Directv (sports, kids programs, disney, Noggins, travel channel, food network, Discovery, network channels etc) and occasionally will be used for watching Blue Ray movies. I already have the surround sound sytem built in. Given for my use, Is Elite way over kill given both me and my kids will be watching this TV primarily DirecTV or should I just settle for a non-Elite and be happy. I am coming from a 10 year old Projection TV, that finally died so anything will be better than what I had. My family room does get westerly SUN exposure, although we have thick curtains etc that block most of the light during the day.

I don't think I will be ever able to take advantage of all the advanced settings, I think if I get Elite, I will set it to "pure mode" and forget about it. On the flip side, I feel if I am buying a TV for the next 8-10 years get the best and be happy.
Sometimes I feel I should just forget about reading all these posts on the Forum as it gets very confusing.

Thanks for listening and any help you can provide in helping me make a decision.:confused:



OK I will put this out there :) It seriously depends on the individual and the situation. I talk to so many people and the answer is different every time. I just dont want people to think I am one sided for Elite, I recommend a product on a case by case basis.

Here we go :) I have both Merecedes and BMW and which one brakes more? BMW, sorry guys I just had to :)

so the BMW has better brakes?? stopping power is an important feature. Sorry Roman, I just had to :)

Why do you say that? If I get the non elite calibrated it should be close to a standard elite no? And of course the elite will be much better if it is calibrated but now I am just back to step one. If both are calibrated wouldn't the difference between them be the same as if they were both uncalibrated?

No. Sorry, but you have to realize that there are features on the elite that
are *NOT* available on the non-elite that make a huge difference. Colorspace2
and gamma settings are 2 of them.

This is a bad analogy, but what the heck: Imagine you have 1 TV that you
can control brightness only, while on the other, you can control both contrast
(white level) and brightness (black level). The 2nd TV will allow you a picture
so very different from the first TV. Well, that's kinda like what gamma and
colorspace2 do for you. It's adds a completely different flavour. Heck, gamma
is like having a different ambient light (say yellow instead of white) on the screen
while colorspace is like having a different palette of colours to deal paint with.
You cannot make something that doesn't have these features act like they do.

{dammit, can't the spellcheck in firefox appease Canadians and quit telling us
that it's spelled color/flavor/odor instead of colour/flavour/odour?! Sheesh! I
hate that!}

That's the best way I can describe it. It's not that one TV looks better than
the other by default, but it's that one TV can look VERY different to the
other, depending on your taste. An elite TV is the closest thing to a movie
theatre experience due to the way it handles things, but that's not everyone's
cup of tea. For me, it makes Star Wars (original trilogy) look theatrical, and
not like a TV movie.

NanoRish do I think you will be happy with the non Elite? Yes for sure! The question is will you be ok knowing that you did not have the best of the best? Or would you be happy with a BMW or would you like a Mercedes lol kidding
Again talking to you a few times and looking at your post the non Elite will take care of you.

so the BMW has better brakes?? stopping power is an important feature. Sorry Roman, I just had to :)

;) they cost the same so doesn't matter BMW= Break My Wallet
ok I am done :)

Comments but said with fear and foolishness, I suspect on this forum:

"When Sony had the Qualia line (same premise as the Signature series)....." The key word is HAD. The market spoke of this value proposition or lack of.


"Lets look at the CPU industry.... I don't see anyone bitchin' and complaining about getting a 2.6Ghz chip knowing full well it was a rejected 3.0Ghz part." . Yep, but that same rejected part works just as well as the selected part - just slower, but just as accurate, etc.

"Diamonds....E cost more than G or H." Yes, but not some undisclosed trade secret, but well defined and known quantified grading standards. You make the choice and pay the price.

My BMW goes in monday for a ticking noise coming from the engine, I think it is a lifter.:)
My old Acura does this until it warms up...can't say it's any surprise with 175,000+ miles ;) Ok, ok...back to 9Gs! :D

The market spoke of this value proposition or lack of.Yeah right. I remember why they discontiued the Qualia line. Do you? It had nothing to do with "market value".

Yep, but that same rejected part works just as well as the selected part - just slower, but just as accurate, etc.That same rejected part doesn't work just as well. If it did, it would not have been rejected in the first place.

Yes, but not some undisclosed trade secret, but well defined and known quantified grading standards. You make the choice and pay the price.Well, guess what.... the entire display industry does it. Deal with it.

Hi Roman,

I have had BMW's for the last 10 plus years and I can tell u, I will never buy a Mercedes. There is a reason they call BMW the ultimate driving experience, ofcourse now with young kids, I rarely get a chance to enjoy kicking the tire on those BMW's :)

Thanks for the reply, hopefully I can come to a decision by early next week.
Cabinet guy is coming in this weekend to take measurements.



NanoRish do I think you will be happy with the non Elite? Yes for sure! The question is will you be ok knowing that you did not have the best of the best? Or would you be happy with a BMW or would you like a Mercedes lol kidding
Again talking to you a few times and looking at your post the non Elite will take care of you.

Well, that's kinda like what gamma and
colorspace2 do for you. It's adds a completely different flavour.

So just to be clear, there are no gamma adjustments or colorspace adjustments in the service menu for the non-elites?

I know it may not always be the case, but there is a long list of product lines out there where features (very often adjustment features like the ones being discussed) are simply disabled (often in the firmware) for the so called mid to low end models.

I don't think I will be ever able to take advantage of all the advanced settings, I think if I get Elite, I will set it to "pure mode" and forget about it. On the flip side, I feel if I am buying a TV for the next 8-10 years get the best and be happy.
Sometimes I feel I should just forget about reading all these posts on the Forum as it gets very confusing.

I know your original note is to Roman, but I figured I'd try to help a bit. I j ust wrote a message (somewhere above) about the features on the Elite that
you might or might not want. Unfortunately, the Elite TV isn't marketed well, IMHO, thus folks get confused on what it offers over the non-elite. Many of
us (myself included) thought it had better PQ by default. This is not true! In fact, you won't be able to tell the TV's apart at first.

What the elite, however, has are extra features that, when used properly, can make the TV viewing experience indistinguishable from a small theatre.
I always use Star Wars as an example. Basically the original series had this look to it that drew you into a different world. Well, when you watch it on
a regular TV, it kinda looks like a Fox TV movie due to the characteristics of normal TV parameters. Often, watching movies on a regular HDTV yields far
too much saturation of colour or brightness and a lot of subtleties are lost in the process. Many film directors choose to film in certain colours and
such to entice a particular mood in the audience. Pitch Black is a movie that really set the mood of stifling, searing heat during the beginning. The way
how everything had that yellowy-white type of colour really set the mood of the beginning, IMHO. Other movies seem to use duller colours and seem
to have a sharpness to them to emphasize the grittiness of the moment. I find they zoom in a lot as well.


But about the TV's. I would suggest you consider the following:

1. If all you do is watch TVs and the odd movie here and there, just get the non-elite.
2. If you watch a lot of movies and want a true theatre atmosphere, get the elite.


Remember though:

1. Elite has speakers on side and a much better stand configuration, IMHO.
2. Non-elites sit a good 3 inches higher on the stand than the elites which affects where the viewing centre of the screen will lie.

Good luck. I'm no expert or anything... but having an elite has taught me a whole lot of things.

So just to be clear, there are no gamma adjustments or colorspace adjustments in the service menu for the non-elites?

I know it may not always be the case, but there is a long list of product lines out there where features (very often adjustment features like the ones being discussed) are simply disabled (often in the firmware) for the so called mid to low end models.

From what I've read, no. They can, however, adjust discrete colour to a certain degree. Anyone out there feel free to correct me.

Here we go :) I have both Merecedes and BMW and which one brakes more? BMW, sorry guys I just had to :)


Lexus and Infiniti here. I don't like my cars spending time in the shop. I better knock on some wood as I say that. ;)

OK, back on topic now...........hopefully. :)

Nambit you know I always appreciate your feedback, thank you.

step away for 5 hours and find that I missed 3 pages of pretty much garbage...

Can we stick to the thread, which is 9G Pios and their specs... and pre-orders, and interesting up coming info, etc...

I thought the Elite VS none Elite was informative but the car stuff I agree with I guess :)

Lexus and Infiniti here. I don't like my cars spending time in the shop. I better knock on some wood as I say that. ;)



I understand y'all love your AMGs, Beamers and Lexuses but please stay on track with the discussion... I'm trying to catch up every evening, there are like 10 new pages a day. Everyone spanked the "buzz" poster all over the thread for getting off topic, and now this... And no offense, but both my Murcielago and Lingenfelter Corvette can run circles around your AMGs, and that's no joke! No shop visits either!

step away for 5 hours and find that I missed 3 pages of pretty much garbage...

Can we stick to the thread, which is 9G Pios and their specs... and pre-orders, and interesting up coming info, etc...

I thought the Elite VS none Elite was informative but the car stuff I agree with I guess :)


i agree this thread has already had enough off topic conversation going on.
can we delete them so we have a shorter list?

There's probably only about 5 pages of informative stuff in this 49 page thread so good luck trying to cut it all down.

What is going on with everyone?????

I don't see anyone bitchin' and complaining about Panasonic glass when the best glass goes in their 850 series...then 800u series....then 85 series...then 80 series.

When Sony had the Qualia line (same premise as the Signature series) I didn't see anyone bitchin' and complained then.

Lets look at the CPU industry.... I don't see anyone bitchin' and complaining about getting a 2.6Ghz chip knowing full well it was a rejected 3.0Ghz part.

Diamonds....E cost more than G or H.

Wake up people, This is reality.

First, my confession: There are several pages beyond this I haven't read yet, so forgive me if I'm repeating things that got posted later.

But I wanted to respond to this since I think my post yesterday started this snowball going. I don't at all begrudge the company's right to grade panels. But I am trying to understand the real world consequences. I was set to buy what I thought was the best plasma on the market today (I prefer Kuro to Runco and B & O). Now, I find myself in the position of trying to decide if there is something better for the same price - the Signature series. And if it will be significantly enough better to cause me to wait a couple of months.

And we all know what me waiting leads to.....

The Signature Series is strictly designed for high end integrated systems, the higher end the better as these monitors have very advanced technology opportunities.

Some advanced technology features include; more ISF calibration settings, much more. Dedicated color modes, so you can display just the blue channel, more accurate than using the blue filter in front of the calibrators eye. Very brisk support and use for IP applications and scheduled email notification.

This display is a very controllable networked device that opens up endless creative advanced applications, only limited by the integrators imagination the end users requirements and the integrators skill level. Remote surveillance cameras monitoring and controling, email notification containing calibration settings changes are just two ideas we discussed.

Pioneer has made the tools available and it's up to the users and professional integrators and programmers to unleash the power of this device.

-Robert

Hey Robert! I'm glad you're here. We've all been eagerly waiting for your reports!! I have a couple of questions about the Signature line. The added levels of callibration - would that be comparable to coupling an Elite with a high end Video processor?

What does "very brisk support" mean?

The Elite PRO-141FD is a rocket ship. Pioneer has put the best of what we know into this product. Now that it is out, watch as the compition tries to catch up.

Josh

First, my confession: There are several pages beyond this I haven't read yet, so forgive me if I'm repeating things that got posted later.

But I wanted to respond to this since I think my post yesterday started this snowball going. I don't at all begrudge the company's right to grade panels. But I am trying to understand the real world consequences. I was set to buy what I thought was the best plasma on the market today (I prefer Kuro to Runco and B & O). Now, I find myself in the position of trying to decide if there is something better for the same price - the Signature series. And if it will be significantly enough better to cause me to wait a couple of months.

And we all know what me waiting leads to.....

There's probably only about 5 pages of informative stuff in this 49 page thread so good luck trying to cut it all down.

based on what you wrote on this should be be an cosern on the 8g kuro's or pioneer seems to only degrade only the new 9g kuro? i might make the trigger on the PRO-1150HD this is coming from a TH-42px75u panasonic guy

go through each page hit delete this post and then wait for a mod to do so? seriously a informative thread with 2-7 pages sounds very good :)

based on what you wrote on this should be be an cosern on the 8g kuro's or pioneer seems to only degrade only the new 9g kuro? i might make the trigger on the PRO-1150HD this is coming from a TH-42px75u panasonic guy


Gus, either you have some typos in here or I'm just not understanding you. Can you try to ask me your question another way?

So why don't people do group purchases anymore ? Can't some of us get together and purchase 10 or 20 panels together at once and get closer to dealer pricing ????

I would like to setup a group purchase for us Canadians. Is it against forum rules for me to start a new thread for a Group Purchase?

So just to be clear, there are no gamma adjustments or colorspace adjustments in the service menu for the non-elites?


Is this also true for the 8 G?

The Elite PRO-141FD is a rocket ship. Pioneer has put the best of what we know into this product. Now that it is out, watch as the compition tries to catch up.

Josh

The slow trickle of info regarding this 9G Pioneer PRO-141FD just gets better & better by the day, and my interest has peaked to new heights. One of the reasons this "super monitor" has perked me up, is an idea I've had for a few years and one that was also made by johnnybruez(?). This incorporates the idea that the "super monitor" (my acronym) would be the main anchor of an HT System and not to be upgraded for many years, and the other external components of the HT System could be swapped out when upgrades were needed or wanted. This PRO-141 may be the one to fit that bill.

Lexus and Infiniti here. I don't like my cars spending time in the shop. I better knock on some wood as I say that. ;)

OK, back on topic now...........hopefully. :)

To (lamely) legitimize this post, I picked the non-Elite for the 8G, but will be getting the Elite with the 9G. The Kuro is exciting to me because it is the first TV other than front projection that gave me something I wasn't getting with my FP experience.

Now what I really wanted to say is that we own, or have owned in the last five years, Infinity, Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW, (and even a VW Phaeton!), and the winner in this debate is PORSCHE.

Gus, either you have some typos in here or I'm just not understanding you. Can you try to ask me your question another way?

I think he's asking, "I have concerns based on what you wrote. Could you tell me, in your opinion, do the new Kuro Signature Elite 9Gs take away any possibility of getting an Elite 9G with "perfect" glass, compared to how the policy used to be last year with the non-Elite 8Gs? I currently own a Panasonic TH-42px75u and considering a Pioneer Elite Pro-1150FD, if I can no longer get good glass because the Signature Elites have that glass instead. Which would be the better choice, wait for the 9Gs or get an 8G instead?"

Gus,

I'm hoping I'm getting your message across correctly? Cause it's confusing! :confused:


reio-ta yes you are right sorry my english is not so great bottom line is : if the quality control or the panel switching changes based on vashti then does the pro-1150 have the perfect panel? if so is it better to buy a PRO-1150FD vs a new 9g kuro? my main course of action was to get bes PQ for the lowest price which lead me to the 42PX75u but then i saw that i can aquire the PRO-1150 for under $2400

reio-ta yes you are right sorry my english is not so great bottom line is : if the quality control or the panel switching changes based on vashti then does the pro-1150 have the perfect panel? if so is it better to buy a PRO-1150FD vs a new 9g kuro? my main course of action was to get bes PQ for the lowest price which lead me to the 42PX75u but then i saw that i can aquire the PRO-1150 for under $2400

Ok good. I think you don't have any choice really. You're not going to get what you want with the 8g, which is the Signature Elite quality glass. You have a chance at the quality. A slim one at that. I think people said it was 5% chance. So out of every 20 you buy you'll get one which is a Signature Elite quality glass, if you buy a 8G instead. If you think you're that lucky, can go to the store and spot one which is that 5%, etc, go for it. Otherwise, the new features in the 9Gs more than make up, since you cannot afford a Signature Elite anyway, by the sound of your post. Unless you want to wait again next year for an ECC 10G. But how long will you wait? How long will you doubt? I don't think you'll get that better glass with the Panasonic either. At that rate, maybe you'll get that perfect TV in heaven, just like me! :D

BTW, I don't know how my post got deleted. All I wanted to do was edit out the "non-" in the "non-Elite" but accidentally deleted it, woops. :o

Ok good. I think you don't have any choice really. You're not going to get what you want with the 8g, which is the Signature Elite quality glass. You have a chance at the quality. A slim one at that. I think people said it was 5% chance. So out of every 20 you buy you'll get one which is a Signature Elite quality glass, if you buy a 8G instead. If you think you're that lucky, can go to the store and spot one which is that 5%, etc, go for it. Otherwise, the new features in the 9Gs more than make up, since you cannot afford a Signature Elite anyway, by the sound of your post. Unless you want to wait again next year for an ECC 10G. But how long will you wait? How long will you doubt? I don't think you'll get that better glass with the Panasonic either. At that rate, maybe you'll get that perfect TV in heaven, just like me! :D

BTW, I don't know how my post got deleted. All I wanted to do was edit out the "non-" in the "non-Elite" but accidentally deleted it, woops. :o

sorry i'm barely on page 20 of this thread so im trying to get the most out of it, but based on what you have said apprently the signiture series are getting a new royalty treatment? so if thats the case i should just forget about it and just move on with the 8g kuro? what makes this glass so special? sorry if im educated on this question and how can you identify one ? is their a certain serial or code inprited on the carton? and i dont want to wait let alone take the risk for a pioneer and panasonic merge, first i'd like to have a 8g/9g then once info is out move on to ECC or maybe someting more advance as i dont intend to replace a pioneer. and sorry i dont have a sense of humour regardint the heven

What is going on with everyone?????

Diamonds....E cost more than G or H.

Wake up people, This is reality.

My wife is in the high-end diamond and jewelry business (an owner of two stores). In the wholesale side of the business the general focus in determining the value of a diamond is cut, colour, clarity, and carat weight, in that order.

Interestingly, the focus of JSP consumer on the retail side is carat weight, clarity, colour, and only a vague notion that cut is supposed to be important, but no idea why, in that order. Notice that most consumer's valuations are based on a priority scale that is the inverse of the experts, holders of better information, and the one's that profit from the consumer's ignorance.

Discussions between most of the long-term AV enthusiast here would be analogous to industry insiders in the diamond trade. BUT, no matter how valid and quantifiable our reasoning and valuations, and no matter how available the information is with just a wee bit of research (as it is in the diamond trade), the VAST majority of the buying public is still going to buy crap, for the wrong reasons, and pay too much for it.

We can tell them they're crazy. We can provide proof and explanations. But they're just going to keep on doing it. I don't know if it has something to do with brainwashing marketing, the Emperor's New Clothes, or is simply part of the human condition, but some people are never going to "get it", no matter what you do or say...and that is reality.

My BMW goes in monday for a ticking noise coming from the engine, I think it is a lifter.:)

Are you sure the panel isn't buzzing?????:)

sorry i'm barely on page 20 of this thread so im trying to get the most out of it, but based on what you have said apprently the signiture series are getting a new royalty treatment? so if thats the case i should just forget about it and just move on with the 8g kuro? what makes this glass so special? sorry if im educated on this question and how can you identify one ? is their a certain serial or code inprited on the carton? and i dont want to wait let alone take the risk for a pioneer and panasonic merge, first i'd like to have a 8g/9g then once info is out move on to ECC or maybe someting more advance as i dont intend to replace a pioneer. and sorry i dont have a sense of humour regardint the heven

If I'm getting it correctly... Glass is rated on it's translucency. 99%+ is your perfect port glass with barely any light loss due to reflection. The Elites now have something like 95%+ according to D-nice. The Signatures take from that, and only use 98%+. But even so, there should be some chance of a few regular Elites getting the 98%+ glass too, cause I doubt very many Signatures will be made compared to Elite.

Sorry, I didn't mean anything about "real heaven," just that you'll be dead before you decide by having continual doubt, and, if that's what you believe in, hopefully you'll get it in whichever afterlife you believe in.

Does anyone have more information on the new external color sensor on the Elites? Is this a sensor that would be placed at the viewing position and only used during setup or is this somehow used during normal viewing? What specifically is controlled with use of this sensor?

The signature series looks interesting to me but I would place the panel on a stand. Does anyone have an idea what the price of the stand will be? Also, are these integrator tools available to the general public? Will there be an SDK available or is this simply documentation.

does the pro-1150 have the perfect panel?There are no "perfect" panels. Any Elite 9G panel should be better than any Elite 8G panel.

if so is it better to buy a PRO-1150FD vs a new 9g kuro?There is very little chance that a 768P 1150 will be better than a 1080p 50" Elite 9G.

then i saw that i can aquire the PRO-1150 for under $2400You need to see the 9G that comes closest to $2,400 in order to know if you are getting the best PQ for that amount of money. The best Pioneer PQ for the money, may not be an Elite model.

For me the best PQ for the money last November was the non-Elite 6010 calibrated by UMR. It's a choice only you can make.

thanks reio-ta for the informative information now what i can understand

1) is that glass is important in the matter that it reproduces reflection ? or
how does it take role to the PQ? again im not educated as much,

2)and how exactly does my panasonic stand a chance as far as the glass goes to the pioneer 8g ? is kuro panel still better?

3) is their a way to find out if the 8g kuro contains the new signiture elite glass?

There are no "perfect" panels. Any Elite 9G panel should be better than any Elite 8G panel.

Then a 9g would be better, and panel meaning glass correct?

There is very little chance that a 768P 1150 will be better than a 1080p 50" Elite 9G..

i dont get it how would an 8g be better then a 9g?
you're contrediting yourself based on your first statement or am i missing something?


You need to see the 9G that comes closest to $2,400 in order to know if you are getting the best PQ for that amount of money. The best Pioneer PQ for the money, may not be an Elite model.
is this a tricky question?

thanks reio-ta for the informative information now what i can understand

1) is that glass is important in the matter that it reproduces reflection ? or
how does it take role to the PQ? again im not educated as much,

2)and how exactly does my panasonic stand a chance as far as the glass goes to the pioneer 8g ? is kuro panel still better?

3) is their a way to find out if the 8g kuro contains the new signiture elite glass?

Gus,

I think what does it more than the quality of the glass is your environment. If you can dim your lighting and cut back on the reflections you see on the panel itself, that will go a lot further than getting even 100% pure perfect silicon dioxide glass(if any plasma uses that). To me the black levels on the 8G and beyond are light years better than any flat panel can do, except for a CRT. But for the size, unless you want to go with a CRT projector, there's no TV in it's size category which beats a Kuro. That's just my take.

Even if you could find a perfect glassed plasma, if it can't take advantage of that glass, what's the point? You'll have a perfectly resolved ugly picture. Who wants that?

I'm picky about video processing. Pioneer's have always wowed me compared to any other TV with their exceptional video processing. In some ways the Pioneer beats my Lumagen, which is a hard feat, in others it matches or is slightly worse. I just can't imagine putting both together.

3) is their a way to find out if the 8g kuro contains the new signiture elite glass?There is no such thing as "signature elite glass".

If you buy a 9G Signature panel you will get what Pioneer thinks is the very best of their 9G production run. There is no guarantee that you or most other folks will be able to tell the difference between a 9G Elite and a 9G Signature.

For that matter, many people won't be able to tell the difference between a non-Elite 9G, and either the Elite or Signature panels.

The only way you can tell if any of them are worth the money is to see them for your self.

Then a 9g would be better, and panel meaning glass correct?Yes it should be. This thread is in a flat panel forum. Panel refers to the whole TV. The glass is only a component in the TV.

i dont get it how would an 8g be better then a 9g?
you're contrediting yourself based on your first statement or am i missing something?Yes, you missed something.

There is very little chance that a 768P 1150 8G will be better than a 1080p 50" Elite 9G.By "very little chance" I mean that it would be very hard to find an 8G 1150 that was better than the Elite 9G sets.

is this a tricky question?Nope. What makes you think it's a tricky question? In fact, it wasn't a question. It states that for a difference to be worth the extra money, you need to be able to detect that difference, and evauate how much money it's worth to you.

".. I remember why they discontinued the Qualia line. Do you? It had nothing to do with "market value". "

"Value proposition" not "market value.", BTW. No, so why did Qualia fail? Why don't you impress me without using some secret knowledge that only you know that no one dare challenge. Like a Sony press release or some respected market reports instead of some secret, insider knowledge that you will just challenge me NOT knowing.

"That same rejected part doesn't work just as well. If it did, it would not have been rejected in the first place. "

Oh, I see. And why would this same "not work as well" computer chip not apply to "not work as well" plasma panel, using your above statement? If it is NOT ok for computer chips, as you seem to say, why it is ok for a "rejected" panel? And, if the "rejected Pioneer panel" worked as well as the 'selected" panel, then you have no need for a selection process in the first place. Do you see how silly this argument is? You can not have it both ways.

BTW, I don't have a fundemental problem with grading, if I know why I am not buying the best. But the way it is coming off here, it seems more like boutique selling that quality/function vs cost trade-off. I think that is the core issue some of us are having with the panel selection process as described.

"Well, guess what.... the entire display industry does it. Deal with it"

Oh, yes, since we all do it, it must be right. Yeah, I get it and can deal with it by rejecting it with my wallet. Thank you.

Is it against forum rules for me to start a new thread for a Group Purchase?
It's borderline, the rules say no setting up power buys without the approval of the owners of the forum. And a group purchase is more or less just like a power buy.
So it's up to the forums owners if they will allow it or not


http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6435126&&#post6435126

Group buys started by members are not allowed...sorry

the VAST majority of the buying public is still going to buy crap, for the wrong reasons

some people are never going to "get it", no matter what you do or say...and that is reality.Egads (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=egads) man, most people can barely make ends meet, let alone spend $5000 for a HDTV. :rolleyes:

Group buys started by members are not allowed...sorry



^^^^^^

lol mod you have a funny link by your signiture of the nice pug

I've been waiting for a 9G Kuro, but just noticed a deal for 5010 on costco website. they are not an authorized online store according to the pioneer website but they are offering 2-years full manufacturer warranty. it looks strange but legitimate to me.


now thanks to this im debating between the PDP-5010FD and the PRO-1150 HD....

2999 PDP-5010fd with 2yr warranty from costco and 90 return policy or 2400 on the pro-1150

apprently the signiture series are getting a new royalty treatmentPioneer's marketing strategy reminds me more of Panasonic's approach to hawking PDPs.

Remember "Concierge Service (http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vPlasmaConciergeHomePage?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401?)?"

While you are sure to pay more for a signature series PDP, I doubt you will 'see' any tangible benefit for the ROI (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/returnoninvestment.asp).

Pioneer's marketing strategy reminds me more of Panasonic's approach to hawking PDPs.

Remember "Concierge Service (http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vPlasmaConciergeHomePage?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401?)?"

While you are sure to pay more for a signature series PDP, I doubt you will 'see' any tangible benefit for the ROI (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/returnoninvestment.asp).

Yes based on what i'v read and thanks to a few members who replied to me,
the upgrades from one model to a newer or a elite vs signiture etc will be minimal if any noticeable to the eye. its more noticeable for the wallet.

The 7G sets didn't have gamma adjustment available (even in the service menu).

I'd be sure that whatever I buy the next time around has adjustable gamma. Taste vary and as much as we might think we'd be ok with a standard setting, it may ultimately not be what we want.

First, my confession: There are several pages beyond this I haven't read yet, so forgive me if I'm repeating things that got posted later.

But I wanted to respond to this since I think my post yesterday started this snowball going. I don't at all begrudge the company's right to grade panels. But I am trying to understand the real world consequences. I was set to buy what I thought was the best plasma on the market today (I prefer Kuro to Runco and B & O). Now, I find myself in the position of trying to decide if there is something better for the same price - the Signature series. And if it will be significantly enough better to cause me to wait a couple of months.

And we all know what me waiting leads to.....It's no the grade of glass that really separates the Elites from the non-Elites. It's the software driving that glass.

I think you would be happy with either the Elite or Signature series. Personally I'm getting the regular Elite. The additional features of the Signature series are a great bonus, however, I'm personally satisfied with what I can get out of the regular Elites :)

Hey Robert! I'm glad you're here. We've all been eagerly waiting for your reports!! I have a couple of questions about the Signature line. The added levels of callibration - would that be comparable to coupling an Elite with a high end Video processor?

What does "very brisk support" mean?An outboard scaler would be absolutely worthless with the Elites and Signature series.....Signature series even more.

Wow, I got so excited when I saw that there were 5 pages of new posts this morning, man was that dissapointing!
Guys......enough about the glass already!!!! Do you guys realize how stupid you sound bickering back and forth about glass quality? Signature uses hand picked parts, Elites and non-elites will be made to the same quality they always have. You are not going to notice the difference in glass..........did you before? (elite vs. non-elite)

Sorry for the rant, its just that im still pissed I sat here and read thru these last 5 pages of mindless dribble. Ugh!

hey i just finish reading this whole thread so is their any news regarding robert? is the pioneer tour thing still going on? d-nice do you have any more info that you can release? and if robert is back shouldnt he be posting pictures or more info?

Wow, I got so excited when I saw that there were 5 pages of new posts this morning, man was that dissapointing!
Guys......enough about the glass already!!!! Do you guys realize how stupid you sound bickering back and forth about glass quality? Signature uses hand picked parts, Elites and non-elites will be made to the same quality they always have. You are not going to notice the difference in glass..........did you before? (elite vs. non-elite)

Sorry for the rant, its just that im still pissed I sat here and read thru these last 5 pages of mindless dribble. Ugh! :) :) :)

hey i just finish reading this whole thread so is their any news regarding robert? is the pioneer tour thing still going on?It's over now.

d-nice do you have any more info that you can release? and if robert is back shouldnt he be posting pictures or more info?Nope. The only additional info I'll post will be after I have one at home to evaluate.

so its safe to say that we wont be getting any new info until months from now? man has this been a werid thread that i dont know how it survied this long before a mod closes it.

but if the tour is over then how come robert is failing to give pictures??? didnt he state earlier that he would do so and give mre info?

also d-nice this should be easy for you, would you get a PRO-1150 for under $2400 or a 5010FD for 2999?

Wow, I got so excited when I saw that there were 5 pages of new posts this morning, man was that dissapointing!
Guys......enough about the glass already!!!! Do you guys realize how stupid you sound bickering back and forth about glass quality? Signature uses hand picked parts, Elites and non-elites will be made to the same quality they always have. You are not going to notice the difference in glass..........did you before? (elite vs. non-elite)

Sorry for the rant, its just that im still pissed I sat here and read thru these last 5 pages of mindless dribble. Ugh!

+1

so its safe to say that we wont be getting any new info until months from now?Who said anything about "months" ;)

but if the tour is over then how come robert is failing to give pictures??? didnt he state earlier that he would do so and give mre info?Please be patient.

also d-nice this should be easy for you, would you get a PRO-1150 for under $2400 or a 5010FD for 2999?I can't help you with purchasing descisions as that should be up to you (your eyes and wallet).

For the record I own a 1150 even though I could have easily purchased a 5010.

Ok Alex I Clicked On Ur Invison Page And I Wanted To Acquire 5020 Pricing And When I Dialed The 1800 Number And The Other Local Number That Starts With 360 I Got On Both This Number Is Not In Service

Wow, I got so excited when I saw that there were 5 pages of new posts this morning, man was that dissapointing!
Guys......enough about the glass already!!!! Do you guys realize how stupid you sound bickering back and forth about glass quality? Signature uses hand picked parts, Elites and non-elites will be made to the same quality they always have. You are not going to notice the difference in glass..........did you before? (elite vs. non-elite)

Sorry for the rant, its just that im still pissed I sat here and read thru these last 5 pages of mindless dribble. Ugh!

Wow I had the same feeling reading your post!... :rolleyes:

Who said anything about "months" ;)

Please be patient.

I can't help you with purchasing descisions as that should be up to you (your eyes and wallet).

For the record I own a 1150 even though I could have easily purchased a 5010.


im uneducated avs'er which is the reason why im here otherwise i'd get the best choice, its rather simple from my view points

1080p is more expensive which is more resolution....

then again i might achive higher PQ because the kuro adjustments?

again this the only view point i can tell. i would most defitanly get it calibrated once umr would come but in your stand point which should i do? the elite 720p is cheaper