-Do the standard DVD`s have 480i or 480p format.?
-What exactly do the progressive scan players do with the SD dvd`s?
--what exactly does the pro 151fd do to the SD dvd`s output
-what do you mean by the blu ray player doing OK with up conversion of SD dvd`s...is it not true that regardless of the source, the pioneer still upscales the image to 1080p with the help of inbuilt scaler
--
Arukandra,

A DVD player that's progressive only looks at flags. Some are interlaced flags and some are progressive flags, on the same DVD. For instance, sometimes the menu, special features, and trailers are 30p/60i, and will therefore have different flags than the main movie. But, sometimes those flags are encoded wrongly, on rare occasions. So, a really good decoder, like in the Kuros will look not only at flags but at the actual frames, called cadence frame detection for either 3:2 (24p) or 2:2 ( 50i/25p PAL). For best results send out 480i ( really called 480psF) from the DVD player, from a good player like the Oppo 980/981/983 or an SDI modded player like my Panasonic DVD-RP82. Most other players and practically all BD upscaling players will mangle the 480i (480psF) signal sent as "true 480i" and will confuse the Kuro's processing of 24pSF. So it's mandatory for perfect results, the Kuro can understand, to get the recommended players.
Almost without exception DVDs are 480i. I've read that there might be a few that are 480p but I have no idea where you would find one.

They de-interlace 480i to 480p before outputing the signal.


That's untrue. A DVD is 480psF/24 (progressive-segmented Frame @24 frames). Which is a interlaced transport of a 24p signal. It's still 24p, sent over a interlaced carrier. This is done for compatibility reasons alone, it's NOT and I repeat, NOT a 480i playback format whatsoever. A proper DVD player (or TV itself sent a proper 480i(480psF) signal) will inverse telecine the signal on playback.The signal isn't "de-interlaced" because a movie isn't 60i frames. There are some 30p and true 60p which are converted to 60i, but those are called video and fast action video. Those are rare on DVD, most are 24pSF.

It's not "few are 480p"(24). Practially ALL DVDS are encoded as 24pSF and played back on a proper TV with proper decoding as 100% true 480p24.

It's essential to know the difference between 480i60 and 480psF/24. Both look like regular 480i but are handled differently. A Kuro's processor settings in the TV can be overridden for 480i 30p/60i video, even if it's really 480psF. That will give very bad results. On the Kuros, the Kuro's video processor will motion adaptively de-interlace (if it thinks it's 60i, from your overrides) or if it's gets even more confused think it's 30p and then bob/weave to 1080p60. That's even worse than the 3:2 standard mode of repeated frames, because you can then introduce combing and feathering.

For DVDs, your best bet is to set the "Advanced PureCinema" mode, and not use the "Progressive" de-interlaced mode in the Kuro's menu.

OK, so the 980 sends out 480i over HDMI....does it do it over component too?

You know, I'd give this advice to a person who already owns a PS3: Save your
money and just use the PS3. It plays movies pretty quick and the new firmware
really improved a lot of goodies. Heck, it now tracks where you left off in a
movie even if you eject it. I find the PQ more than satisfying and I am running
it on a Pro-150FD. Further, the support is impressive. Heh, for those folks
out there who like to download AVCHD material (shame on you), the PS3 will
easily play it no problems. :)

I owned a Toshiba A3 hd-dvd player and, believe me, the PS3 isn't even near
as slow as that piece of crap when it comes to load or exit times. I gave it
to my brother as it was just junk.

Blu-ray player AVCHD support shouldn't matter anymore since the new kuro's are DLNA compatible right? Should be pretty simple to stream AVCHD right to the TV.

I'm not sure if it has been stated yet or not, but is the input panel on the 6020 located and configured the same as the 6010?

Thanks

Oh BTW.....I just took the plunge on the 6020.

Thanks Roman.....you're great to work with. ;)

OK,
I have been away for about a week and now I see on the first page of this thread that the availibility for the PRO-11FD and the PRO-151Fd has changed from "JUNE" to "TBA".......


If you go back a few pages (okay, perhaps many pages) you'll see that Robert said the word at the roadshow was they might be delayed to a July/August release rather than June/July as originally thought. Roman indicated the same thing happened last year and there were still some units in June. So we're basically left with a "wait and see" situation for now...

anyone know what website robert was talking about? i remember someone posting a link to a gallery with pictures back when this thread started, surprized that link never made it to the front page

Unrelated, but I must tell you when I viewed Pioneer's BD51FD BD player pared with the PRO-151FD my jaw dropped. I have never seen image quality so fine and detailed, crisp, sharp, and with a 3-D look that I have never seen before on any display anywhere. The improved image quality is a result of matching the up-converted 12 Bit per channel BD video with Pioneer's superior black level and exceptional gray scale and color accuracy reproduction. Truly an absolutely amazing experience.

-Robert

Robert,

Thanks so much for the info. I think you've just answered the big "Kuro" with "Pioneer Blu-Ray" with "Pioneer receiver" is better question!

Unless I'm misreading this completely, a Pioneer system is going to be the first that actually USES 12-bit color (a.k.a. Deep Color, one of the things everyone hypes in HDMI 1.3 spec, along with an increased color space). Until now, there has been no Deep Color source, but it would make sense that the Pioneer BD-player is UPSAMPLING the video feed from the actual disc, then transmitting in 12-bit instead of 8-bit. This has the potential to smooth out color contouring, which becomes more noticeable on high-contrast displays.

This is HUGE, potentially game-changing if I'm right.

Please tell me I'm right...:)

KDD

you are right

I decided to delete my post on blu-ray as this thread is getting out of hand.
Keep in mind, I had no intention of knocking the Pioneer blu-ray player or
anything like that so if anyone got upset because I mentioned a feature of
the PS3 that is missing from some blu-ray players, don't assume I mean all
(ie: AVCHD).

Now, back on track:
I find it a bit unusual that they removed the price of the Elite TVs on the
Canadian site, but left the release date as June. Kinda weird that the TVs
are supposedly coming next month, yet no MSRP yet. Me thinks there's still
a conference for Canadian retailers out there. Anyone know of any?

Also, here are some differences between 8G and 9G for those who are wondering (based on the spread-sheets):

non-Elite specific advancement over 8G:
1. 9G non-elites now has the Home Media Gallery that the 8G elites have.

Elite specific advancement over 8G:
1. Redesigned GUI (unsure if only the advanced section).
2. New external colour sensor.
3. New ISF-Auto mode.

Elite *AND* Non-Elite advancement over 8G:
1. Deeper blacks (5x 8G)
2. Thinner design.
3. Improved filter for enhanced contrast in bright environment. (different filters between elite & non-elite)
4. Improved Optimum mode.
5. Apparently a change in the Wide aspect ratio option (2 for HD, 1 for SD).

Other notes:
- Looks like the DYNAMIC mode has been removed from the Elite.
- User Mode on both Elite and non-Elite apparently changed to Performance mode.
- Supposedly new remote available. Elite remote now has learning mode.

It is. Last year they had on the cut sheets that the non-Elites had Pure mode.

D-Nice: By pure mode do you mean "Advanced PureCinema with 3:3 Pulldown ››(72Hz) for accurate playback of film content"? Because this is listed as a shared feature (not Elite exclusive) on the PRO-111FD spec sheet. tx. (if not can you explain the distinction, thanks).

That's untrue. A DVD is 480psF/24 (progressive-segmented Frame @24 frames). Which is a interlaced transport of a 24p signal.OK. It's a 480i transport for 480psF/24. ;)

I'll make my earlier post clearer.

Before the first progressive DVD players, what did the interleaved CRT TV sets do to play a DVD? As I recall it wasn't very good, but the problems were harder to see on a small screen.

D-Nice recommended an OPPO 980 because of it's ability to output the 480i carrier using HDMI. None of the other OPPO DVD players are able to output a 480i carrier over HDMI. For that reason they don't take full advantage of the Kuro video proccessing.

I find it a bit unusual that they removed the price of the Elite TVs on theCanadian site, but left the release date as June. Kinda weird that the TVsare supposedly coming next month, yet no MSRP yet. Me thinks there's stilla conference for Canadian retailers out there. Anyone know of any?

Nambit me too it's not encouraging -- to say the least. i would be very interested to talk to (via PM) any Canadian Ontario people interested in buying 9G Pio's.

I contacted my Auth Dealer in eastern Ont, he had someone at the road show in California, said it was item #1 on his Tuesday morning staff meeting agenda (learning all the info, eta, pricing). So he told me to call back Tuesday afternoon and he'd tell me the pricing and ETA. So I presume this info will be forthcoming soon, I'll post any forum appropriate info (Can MSRP / Avail.) for the Elites if I hear it, and I hope someone beats me to the punch because I'm looking for it too!! PS: I really hope the Elites are at par with US MSRP.

Before the first progressive DVD players, what did the interleaved CRT TV sets do to play a DVD? As I recall it wasn't very good, but the problems were harder to see on a small screen.


They do this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8c/32pulldown.svg/314px-32pulldown.svg.png

They do this:Thanks. :)

Where's the beef(C)?

Thanks. :)

Where's the beef(C)?

That's where people who say they see the jitter/stutter comes from. The extra half B and D frames. You still see the C frame shown like that, but with the added, "wtf was that!", bonus.

Do you see any advantage of getting the 05fd over the 51fd? Robert

the 05FD uses better (heavier) construction which will reduce vibration further.
100% correct.

It will also uses aluminum faceplate as opposed to plastic.
Not sure as I do not remember hearing this or have any notes to confirm it either, maybe Chris can confirm.

Furthermore, in terms of picture customization, there are a lot more parameters that can be tweaked on the 05FD. and for the fan of bitrate meter: the 05FD actually separates the video bitrate from the audio bitrate, not just a mux bitrate.

Not sure as I do not remember hearing this or have any notes to confirm it either, maybe Chris can confirm.

I would also add the nicer fit and finish of the Elite and its 2-yr warranty.

-Robert

Also, here are some differences between 8G and 9G for those who are wondering (based on the spread-sheets):

...

Elite specific advancement over 8G:
1. Redesigned GUI (unsure if only the advanced section).
2. New external colour sensor.
3. New ISF-Auto mode.



Are you sure the color sensor is elite specific? According to the PDF for the 5020/6020:

New, Improved ››Optimum Mode. Automatically analyzes and adjusts audio and video settings according to specific room light conditions and type of light and color. Program content is also monitored and finely adjusted so movies, sports and news are all faithfully reproduced. Includes OSD with status.

Are you sure the color sensor is elite specific? According to the PDF for the 5020/6020:

New, Improved ››Optimum Mode. Automatically analyzes and adjusts audio and video settings according to specific room light conditions and type of light and color. Program content is also monitored and finely adjusted so movies, sports and news are all faithfully reproduced. Includes OSD with status.

Just going by what it says on the PDF. Under Kuro Features, it only states
the room light sensor on the non-elite, while it's very specific and highlights
the new external color sensor (and the room light sensor) on the Elite pdf.
Perhaps they cut and paste the optimum mode features in error or something.
You can ask D-Nice or someone else if the non-elite has the same sensor.

I would also add the nicer fit and finish of the Elite and its 2-yr warranty.

-Robert

Are the pics coming soon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyler13
Are you sure the color sensor is elite specific? According to the PDF for the 5020/6020:

New, Improved ››Optimum Mode. Automatically analyzes and adjusts audio and video settings according to specific room light conditions and type of light and color. Program content is also monitored and finely adjusted so movies, sports and news are all faithfully reproduced. Includes OSD with status.


Just going by what it says on the PDF. Under Kuro Features, it only states
the room light sensor on the non-elite, while it's very specific and highlights
the new external color sensor (and the room light sensor) on the Elite pdf.
Perhaps they cut and paste the optimum mode features in error or something.
You can ask D-Nice or someone else if the non-elite has the same sensor.

I think the description of OPTIMUM mode in the pdf for the regular KUROs refers to the color of the image, whereas the Elite has additional data available from the color sensor.

KDD

Ah... another one of the many urban myths that abound in the AVS Forum. :rolleyes:

Sony owns Blu-ray... go for a profile 2.0 40 GB PS3 or the upcoming BDP-S550 (http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/26/sony-announces-bdp-s350-bdp-s550-first-new-blu-ray-players-sin/). Both devices are the perfect compliment for a Kuro PDP. ;)
Personally, I'm not gonna' get bent outta' shape on this profile nonsense anymore. My Samsung BD-UP5000 (you know, for those remnant HD DVDs as well) connected to a Kuro will look superfine, I have little doubt.

Actualy Sony doesn't "own" BD.....Panasonic does as they have the most IPs of any BD Association member.
They might as well considering how many playback devices in the wild are Sony-made.

Hey Robert,

You may not have the time to post pics yet but can you give us your impressions or how much better the 9Gs look over the 8Gs? How much better are the blacks in a darkened environment and with lighting (if you've seen this)? Are the 9G screens tinted darker than the 8Gs? Any improvements in motion? (i.e. I see stuttering on BD discs on the 8G).

(i.e. I see stuttering on BD discs on the 8G).

Huh? you what? what modes are you using? Isn't Pure mode supposed to fix most of that?.. D-Nice? Anyone?

Hey Robert,

You may not have the time to post pics yet but can you give us your impressions or how much better the 9Gs look over the 8Gs? How much better are the blacks in a darkened environment and with lighting (if you've seen this)? Are the 9G screens tinted darker than the 8Gs? Any improvements in motion? (i.e. I see stuttering on BD discs on the 8G).

I am also curious on if the colors are better and if there is less noise on the non elite 9G's too.

Robert,

Thanks so much for the info. I think you've just answered the big "Kuro" with "Pioneer Blu-Ray" with "Pioneer receiver" is better question!

Unless I'm misreading this completely, a Pioneer system is going to be the first that actually USES 12-bit color (a.k.a. Deep Color, one of the things everyone hypes in HDMI 1.3 spec, along with an increased color space). Until now, there has been no Deep Color source, but it would make sense that the Pioneer BD-player is UPSAMPLING the video feed from the actual disc, then transmitting in 12-bit instead of 8-bit. This has the potential to smooth out color contouring, which becomes more noticeable on high-contrast displays.

This is HUGE, potentially game-changing if I'm right.

Please tell me I'm right...:)

KDD


KDD if this is a fact then the blu ray addition will be a major diffrence ?



The oppo 983 is the best upconverting player on the market today. However, it's not needed with the Kuros as Pioneer's processing it top notch.



D-nice if the oppo 983 is the best and if its not needed then why is the regular older needed ? is their lilttle inprovement that is noticeable between the older and the newest?

The oppo sends an unaltered 480i picture over HDMI (like SDI modded dvd players). I have yet to see any BD player capable of that. If you don't want the abousolute best picture from 4080i discs, a BD player will be ok with it's upconversion.

The oppo 983 is the best upconverting player on the market today. However, it's not needed with the Kuros as Pioneer's processing it top notch.

I don't know anything about this one.

Money being a non-issue, is the oppo 983 still a better player than the oppo 980 for the 6020 even with the advaantage of the oppo 980 doing 480 over hdmi? I mostly rent dvds from netflix.

D-nice if the oppo 983 is the best and if its not needed then why is the regular older needed ? is their lilttle inprovement that is noticeable between the older and the newest?



Because the Oppo 980 already outputs 480i (480psF) "perfectly" fine, with really no difference between the 980's and 983's 480i. The 1080p output from the 983 is better than the 980's but, the Kuro already has better processing to 1080p24 than the 983. Therefore, since you want to output 480i to the Kuro, it doesn't matter that the 983 upconverts better, since you're not using the 983's upconverting ability.

[QUOTE=gus738;13890849]KDD if this is a fact then the blu ray addition will be a major diffrence ?

Short version:

YES

Long version

For Deep Color to be meaningful (as in, actually displaying something different than a system without Deep Color), you must have the following items:

1) A source that can send Deep Color (either 10, 12, or 16-bit instead of 8-bit; realize that only 12-bit is mandatory under the spec, so I suspect that all consumer "Deep Color" implementations will be as 12-bit words).

2) A display that can show Deep Color

3) HDMI 1.3 interconnects (note that the bandwidth will actually be higher than regular HDTV--this may have implications for the grade cable you need).

4) Intermediate equipment (such as a receiver or AV processor) that are also HDMI 1.3 compatible.

I don't have any information whether the Pioneer equipment (PDP and Blu-ray player) can tell whether the intermediate equipment is also Pioneer branded or simply HDMI 1.3 compatible. Therefore I cannot say if using a new Pioneer Elite BDP-05 (to be released in August I think) could be used with a Yamaha or Denon HDMI 1.3 receiver and still give Deep Color on the KURO. In theory that could work, but I suspect we will have to be patient and see how the implementation comes out.

Overall though, it sounds like great theater times are ahead! :D

Because the Oppo 980 already outputs 480i (480psF) "perfectly" fine, with really no difference between the 980's and 983's 480i.If you check the OPPO 083's specs you will find that it doesn't output 480i over HDMI. OPPO's 980 is the only one in their model line that can output 480i. Again, that's according to their spec sheets. I have the 981 which also does not output 480i/HDMI.

Because the Oppo 980 already outputs 480i (480psF) "perfectly" fine, with really no difference between the 980's and 983's 480i. The 1080p output from the 983 is better than the 980's but, the Kuro already has better processing to 1080p24 than the 983. Therefore, since you want to output 480i to the Kuro, it doesn't matter that the 983 upconverts better, since you're not using the 983's upconverting ability.


what that being said the only real need of a dvd player is to properly transfer the signal via hdmi in 480i to the kuro that way the kuro can de interlance and up scale?

with that being said is it not the same to get a cheap player and acomplish this? or better yet would the

xbox 360 do a better job? then the oppo 980?

with that being said is it not the same to get a cheap player and acomplish this?

I think it was said earlier that the 980 was one of the few DVD players that actually did 480i HDMI.

Robert, if what you said on what im quoting you then i have couple of comments towards you.

If both are ISF calibrated the PDP-5020FD will look better. However, for the PDP-5020FD the calibrator would need to go into the service menu to be able to properly adjust the TV.

-Robert


1)if the 9g regular kuro can outperforme an 8g elite then this gets me back into step 1 if i should buy the PRO-1150 for $2,400 or pay the extra to get that quality increase.?

remeber im going from panasonic PX75u for the purpose of better PQ so would it be wise to upgrade to the 9g? or is the diffrence small but still we know its there?

2) if the diffrence is significant then i can only imagen the elite 9g would slap the 8g elite correct? both in PQ i mean and respectly both the 8g and 9g pro calibrated.




I think it was said earlier that the 980 was one of the few DVD players that actually did 480i HDMI.

i must of missed it, but i would still want to know if my 360 or my HD-A3 or my panasonic DMR-ES15 can do 480i. i could careless if it does it via hdmi or componet.

because i already bought enough equipment and i want to have just a 360 the best upcoverter for SD dvds and maybe in the reasonable price of the year some blu rays

man i just wish robert can read this but i can only imagen this is enough cluter as it is i can only hope this doesnt get missed and lost out of robert's eyes

Huh? you what? what modes are you using? Isn't Pure mode supposed to fix most of that?.. D-Nice? Anyone?


I have a non-elite. Pure Mode is only available on the elites. I can see it on Smooth, Advanced, and standard. Not always, but sometimes.

Now, back on track:
I find it a bit unusual that they removed the price of the Elite TVs on the
Canadian site, but left the release date as June. Kinda weird that the TVs
are supposedly coming next month, yet no MSRP yet. Me thinks there's still
a conference for Canadian retailers out there. Anyone know of any?

An Elite dealer in the Edmonton, AB area told me that they were sending some of their staff to the Canadian version of the Roadshow on May 28th. This might be the first opportunity for new Canadian information. However, I find the whole situation more than a little fishy. End of it all - I am not expecting there to be a lot of difference between this year and last year. I think MSRP's will be scaled to reflect similar reductions to those seen in the US. I hope I'm wrong, but very few manufacturers have done anything to address the price gaps.

Originally Posted by xb1032
(i.e. I see stuttering on BD discs on the 8G).

I have a non-elite. Pure Mode is only available on the elites. I can see it on Smooth, Advanced, and standard. Not always, but sometimes.

Wow, I hope this is not the case with the 9G, Smooth BD motion and great PQ is my main reason for wanting this 9G unit. If the motion is juddery that would be a total deal breaker. Anyone care to chime in on this?

I think it was said earlier that the 980 was one of the few DVD players that actually did 480i HDMI.


The Pioneer DV-400V-K is a inexpensive option if I remember right....

[QUOTE]

Short version:

YES

Long version

For Deep Color to be meaningful (as in, actually displaying something different than a system without Deep Color), you must have the following items:

1) A source that can send Deep Color (either 10, 12, or 16-bit instead of 8-bit; realize that only 12-bit is mandatory under the spec, so I suspect that all consumer "Deep Color" implementations will be as 12-bit words).

2) A display that can show Deep Color

3) HDMI 1.3 interconnects (note that the bandwidth will actually be higher than regular HDTV--this may have implications for the grade cable you need).

4) Intermediate equipment (such as a receiver or AV processor) that are also HDMI 1.3 compatible.

I don't have any information whether the Pioneer equipment (PDP and Blu-ray player) can tell whether the intermediate equipment is also Pioneer branded or simply HDMI 1.3 compatible. Therefore I cannot say if using a new Pioneer Elite BDP-05 (to be released in August I think) could be used with a Yamaha or Denon HDMI 1.3 receiver and still give Deep Color on the KURO. In theory that could work, but I suspect we will have to be patient and see how the implementation comes out.

Overall though, it sounds like great theater times are ahead! :D


I would think an HDMI receiver is not required. Could you not simply plug the Pio blu-ray into your Kuro and get deep color? Is it possible to send the audio to your receiver separately? Just asking since I don't have an HDMI receiver.

I think it was said earlier that the 980 was one of the few DVD players that actually did 480i HDMI.

I believe players like the toshiba hd-dvd hd-a2 (not a3) can do 480i output, too. they can be had for very cheap on ebay.

I would think an HDMI receiver is not required. Could you not simply plug the Pio blu-ray into your Kuro and get deep color? Is it possible to send the audio to your receiver separately? Just asking since I don't have an HDMI receiver.If you want the new lossless audio codecs (master quality) that are available on Blu-ray and HD-DVD then you need HDMI to a receiver equipped to decode them, or you need a high definition DVD player that decodes them and allows you to output each 7.1 channel as an analog signal. Using HDMI, some high definition DVD players will also convert the new codecs to PCM.

The setup you suggested works fine for the existing 5.1 lossy codecs, but that means you will lose some audio quality to compression.

3) HDMI 1.3 interconnects (note that the bandwidth will actually be higher than regular HDTV--this may have implications for the grade cable you need).

Interesting that you keyed in on this. I noticed Chris Walker also mentioned this in the Pioneer BDP-05FD thread over on the Blue Ray forum. In fact he said:

"This does take up more bandwidth on the HDMI cable. In longer runs you need to make sure that the cable can handle it. (Around 220Mhz)." (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13877595#post13877595)

I'm not all that up on HDMI cables, so is there a specific brand, type, gauge, etc., that should fit this spec of 220Mhz? I plan on using the BDP-05FD with my 9G Elite or Signature panel, and don't wan't the weak link in the chain to come from the wrong cable choice. I may have to end up with a run of about 25 ft.

... i would still want to know if my 360 or my HD-A3 or my panasonic DMR-ES15 can do 480i. You can check the user manual to see if any of your devices will output a 480i carrier. Or you can check in the owner's threads for each one.

Keep in mind that for best picture quality the 480i carrier need to be sent via digital HDMI. I don't know why, but some devices that list HDMI 480i as an output still modify the data that's been stored on the DVD. The OPPO has been established as one player that outputs a native signal without changes.

i could careless if it does it via hdmi or componet.If, as you've said, you are looking to get the best available PQ, then you might want to keep the digital signal all the way from the disk to your display screen.

If you use component, which is analog, then the DVD player will have to convert the original digital data to analog in order to send it to your display. Once the analog signal reaches the display it must be converted back to digital. The resulting images can contain errors.

I can confirm that the SC-09 is available for sure, as my contact has them in stock. So hopefully well see Pioneer hit some dates with the 9g.

Pioneer has had release date problems with their BR players in the past and a few avs members have been waiting on the new flagship avr the SC09tx for awhile but they recently started shipping.

Interesting that you keyed in on this. I noticed Chris Walker also mentioned this in the Pioneer BDP-05FD thread over on the Blue Ray forum. In fact he said:

"This does take up more bandwidth on the HDMI cable. In longer runs you need to make sure that the cable can handle it. (Around 220Mhz)." (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13877595#post13877595)

I'm not all that up on HDMI cables, so is there a specific brand, type, gauge, etc., that should fit this spec of 220Mhz? I plan on using the BDP-05FD with my 9G Elite or Signature panel, and don't wan't the weak link in the chain to come from the wrong cable choice. I may have to end up with a run of about 25 ft.
Monoprice's 1.3a HDMI Cable (22AWG) - 25ft http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10243&cs_id=1024001&p_id=3657&seq=1&format=3#specification (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_i.d=102&cp_id=10243&cs_id=1024001&p_id=3657&seq=1&format=3#specification) will do the trick for a great price: 340MHz tested

If you want the new lossless audio codecs (master quality) that are available on Blu-ray and HD-DVD then you need HDMI to a receiver equipped to decode them, or you need a high definition DVD player that decodes them and allows you to output each 7.1 channel as an analog signal. Using HDMI, some high definition DVD players will also convert the new codecs to PCM.

The setup you suggested works fine for the existing 5.1 lossy codecs, but that means you will lose some audio quality to compression.

One can send the video straight to the Kuro and the decoded lossless audio to the AVR, so the AVR doesn't need to be hdmi 1.3.

Monoprice's 1.3a HDMI Cable (22AWG) - 25ft http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10243&cs_id=1024001&p_id=3657&seq=1&format=3#specification (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_i.d=102&cp_id=10243&cs_id=1024001&p_id=3657&seq=1&format=3#specification) will do the trick for a great price: 340MHz tested
Wonderful. It's nice that they provide a specs page for their cables. This looks like it should do the trick. Thank you.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

OK,
I have been away for about a week and now I see on the first page of this thread that the availibility for the PRO-11FD and the PRO-151Fd has changed from "JUNE" to "TBA".......

Whats going on here??
Pioneer website pressroom still shows june as the release date for the elites,
Have there been some new developements???
And will this hinder me from gettting my beautiful Pro-151FD in june as I plan to?:confused:

Does anyonw know the answer to this question??

No Prob :)

Does anyonw know the answer to this question??
Robert has said that the Elites will be delayed a month.

I believe players like the toshiba hd-dvd hd-a2 (not a3) can do 480i output, too. they can be had for very cheap on ebay.

Toshiba HD-A20 can also output 480i via HDMI.

If you want the new lossless audio codecs (master quality) that are available on Blu-ray and HD-DVD then you need HDMI to a receiver equipped to decode them, or you need a high definition DVD player that decodes them and allows you to output each 7.1 channel as an analog signal. Using HDMI, some high definition DVD players will also convert the new codecs to PCM.

The setup you suggested works fine for the existing 5.1 lossy codecs, but that means you will lose some audio quality to compression.

Yeah I only have a 5.1 setup, although its a quality system that has been and is good enough for me. To go 7.1 I'd have to upgrade receiver and add a couple speakers. It's not something I'm considering doing. Right now the priority is to upgrade my picture (Kuro and blu-ray and HR21).

Short version:

YES

Long version

For Deep Color to be meaningful (as in, actually displaying something different than a system without Deep Color), you must have the following items:

1) A source that can send Deep Color (either 10, 12, or 16-bit instead of 8-bit; realize that only 12-bit is mandatory under the spec, so I suspect that all consumer "Deep Color" implementations will be as 12-bit words).

2) A display that can show Deep Color

3) HDMI 1.3 interconnects (note that the bandwidth will actually be higher than regular HDTV--this may have implications for the grade cable you need).

4) Intermediate equipment (such as a receiver or AV processor) that are also HDMI 1.3 compatible.

I don't have any information whether the Pioneer equipment (PDP and Blu-ray player) can tell whether the intermediate equipment is also Pioneer branded or simply HDMI 1.3 compatible. Therefore I cannot say if using a new Pioneer Elite BDP-05 (to be released in August I think) could be used with a Yamaha or Denon HDMI 1.3 receiver and still give Deep Color on the KURO. In theory that could work, but I suspect we will have to be patient and see how the implementation comes out.

Overall though, it sounds like great theater times are ahead!

I thought Deep Color was a sort of universal standard agreed on by a number of CE manufacturers (obviously implying open compatibility) and is perhaps also somehow covered by the HDMI licensing specifications. Am I mistaken? If not, how would it be possible for Pioneer to effectively force closed compatibility without facing fines or suites?

Hey Robert,

You may not have the time to post pics yet but can you give us your impressions or how much better the 9Gs look over the 8Gs? How much better are the blacks in a darkened environment and with lighting (if you've seen this)? Are the 9G screens tinted darker than the 8Gs? Any improvements in motion? (i.e. I see stuttering on BD discs on the 8G).

I just got to building the avs forum private page with some photos. It a work in progress so more coming tomorrow.

-Robert

Robert, do you think we will see any Elites start to trickle in June/July?

Waboman ^^ scheduled for the end of July, not sooner.

-Robert

Waboman ^^ scheduled for the end of July, not sooner.

-Robert

Ok, thanks! Can't wait to see those pictures.:)

Waboman, ^^ let me know what you think.

-Robert

robert did you get a chance to read my last comment or question ? i would apriciate some answers maybe at this point based on what you said that the reg non elite 9g can outperforme an 8g elite then im getting the 9g kuro ...

can anyone else back up what robert said? D-nice? thanks

hey thanks i'll look into it, and i didnt consider the thought of analog componet lol.



You can check the user manual to see if any of your devices will output a 480i carrier. Or you can check in the owner's threads for each one.

Keep in mind that for best picture quality the 480i carrier need to be sent via digital HDMI. I don't know why, but some devices that list HDMI 480i as an output still modify the data that's been stored on the DVD. The OPPO has been established as one player that outputs a native signal without changes.

If, as you've said, you are looking to get the best available PQ, then you might want to keep the digital signal all the way from the disk to your display screen.

If you use component, which is analog, then the DVD player will have to convert the original digital data to analog in order to send it to your display. Once the analog signal reaches the display it must be converted back to digital. The resulting images can contain errors.

Robert or D-nice here is what my proirty question regarding 8g elite vs 9g non elite because if someone can confirm this then ill jump from 8g elite to 9g non elite....





Robert, if what you said on what im quoting you then i have couple of comments towards you.




1)if the 9g regular kuro can outperforme an 8g elite then this gets me back into step 1 if i should buy the PRO-1150 for $2,400 or pay the extra to get that quality increase.?

remeber im going from panasonic PX75u for the purpose of better PQ so would it be wise to upgrade to the 9g? or is the diffrence small but still we know its there?

2) if the diffrence is significant then i can only imagen the elite 9g would slap the 8g elite correct? both in PQ i mean and respectly both the 8g and 9g pro calibrated.






i must of missed it, but i would still want to know if my 360 or my HD-A3 or my panasonic DMR-ES15 can do 480i. i could careless if it does it via hdmi or componet.

because i already bought enough equipment and i want to have just a 360 the best upcoverter for SD dvds and maybe in the reasonable price of the year some blu rays

man i just wish robert can read this but i can only imagen this is enough cluter as it is i can only hope this doesnt get missed and lost out of robert's eyes

Robert, if what you said on what im quoting you then i have couple of comments towards you.

1)if the 9g regular kuro can outperforme an 8g elite then this gets me back into step 1 if i should buy the PRO-1150 for $2,400 or pay the extra to get that quality increase.?

remeber im going from panasonic PX75u for the purpose of better PQ so would it be wise to upgrade to the 9g? or is the diffrence small but still we know its there?

2) if the diffrence is significant then i can only imagen the elite 9g would slap the 8g elite correct? both in PQ i mean and respectly both the 8g and 9g pro calibrated.

i must of missed it, but i would still want to know if my 360 or my HD-A3 or my panasonic DMR-ES15 can do 480i. i could careless if it does it via hdmi or componet.

because i already bought enough equipment and i want to have just a 360 the best upcoverter for SD dvds and maybe in the reasonable price of the year some blu rays

man i just wish robert can read this but i can only imagen this is enough cluter as it is i can only hope this doesnt get missed and lost out of robert's eyes

I like the 9G PRO-5020FD for you, but you would be happy with the 8G PRO-1150HD. Personal choice, but I recommend the newer Kuro.

-Robert

My dealer wanted a 25% deposit on a new 9G enough though all the other stores are taking 20%.

Mine wanted 30%, I went ahead and paid since I figure I'd be paying it in full once it arrives anyway. They could have taken 20%, however I was told that putting 30% down would put me ahead and or at least make sure I get one once they get them.

By the way, I was able to pay over the phone and I did not have to come in like other have stated they had to do on this thread.

My Tweeter dealer is Showcase in Scottsdale AZ.

Oh by the way, I'm very excited since it's the PRO-151FD. I really wanted one that was 70' or larger, however I could not wait any longer and the price made it harder to wait! Probably in about seven years or so, I'll get the bigger screen.

Wow, I hope this is not the case with the 9G, Smooth BD motion and great PQ is my main reason for wanting this 9G unit. If the motion is juddery that would be a total deal breaker. Anyone care to chime in on this?
Yea, what's the point of 24fps if there's still a noticeable degree of judder? :eek:

5. Apparently a change in the Wide aspect ratio option (2 for HD, 1 for SD).

I noticed that in the PDFs as well. Does that mean I'll finally get a zoom mode that gets rid of the cinemascope bars without distorting the image? I never used that vertically stretching zoom mode on my 8G Kuro, but if I could zoom the picture in and sacrifice some of the image information on the sides to fill the screen, that'd be great!

That will be especially great for the initial 100 hours, for those of us that love cinemascape movies but don't want any ghost of image retention...

KDD

I thought Deep Color was a sort of universal standard agreed on by a number of CE manufacturers (obviously implying open compatibility) and is perhaps also somehow covered by the HDMI licensing specifications. Am I mistaken? If not, how would it be possible for Pioneer to effectively force closed compatibility without facing fines or suites?

It is SUPPOSED to be. I hope the implementation is such that it actually is. Not having seen/tested the equipment in question at this point, I just don't know. HDMI has had more problems with communications than any other interface to date, due to complexity and other factors, beyond the scope of this thread. Most of those bugs should be worked out by now, but I'm sure some of our custom installer colleagues could tell many horror stories about failed HDMI setups.

Pioneer is only advertising that better pictures are possible if there is a chain of their equipment, presumably because
A) their marketing department says to

and

B) their engineering department can only test "their" setup, therefore they won't guarantee that other equipment will work.

A 9G Kuro should support Deep Color from any source. I'm looking forward to it.

KDD

Did I miss something?... Do the new kuros display "Deep Color"?

PS: I always thought that the discs had to be encoded differently in order to have that information and hence would not be compatible with regular sets. God I feel so lost at the moment... :(

kuro 2G/9 Gen plasma vs kuro 3G/10G plasma, from what I remember 9 Gen is 5 lumen and 10 lumen for 10 Gen.. but 10 Gen panel will not be produced by pioneer factory, what people espect from these changes go for 9 gen or wait for 10 gen ? A prototype was shown at CES last january... not easy to make a decision what to wait for....

Did I miss something?... Do the new kuros display "Deep Color"?

PS: I always thought that the discs had to be encoded differently in order to have that information and hence would not be compatible with regular sets. God I feel so lost at the moment... :(

Yes, the new Kuros display Deep Color.

You are absolutely right that the source needs different information, and we would expect differently encoded discs to have that information (Great, another format war...:mad:...actually BD could have this information, as MPEG 4 compression CAN support 12-bit word length.) This would require a NEW Blu-ray spec (again) and another series of obsolete players...

So instead...

Pioneer is up-sampling with their new BD players being released this summer, and generating 12-bit picture data (Deep Color) to transmit to the display.

That's what Robert saw that he described so eloquently in his earlier post. I can't wait to see it myself.

KDD

chaps---this one would still be nice to hear about:

[1] can the Kuro pass out the audio part of its HDMI audio feed back out from the rear, perhaps as TOSlink? I figure this would make it much easier to synchronize the AV receiver and the display. I had a JVC HTIB system that was far off from my Sony RPTV---so bad, it was totally unusable.

[PS: I would love a TV that was also the amplifier, so that my speakers (or at least rear speakers) plug into the TV, instead of into something that needs to synchronize.]

[2] is there any fan noise? in other words, if you turn down the volume all the way and sit 6 feet away in a quiet room, can you detect with closed ears whether the TV is on or off? I guess this applies to 6010 owners if no one has a 6020.

[3] I think the arrival date is June. Wonder if it is scheduled for early June or late June...

1. the 8G kuros have a digital coax out for audio that comes from the astc/nstc/qam internal tuners. guessing the 9G should be the same for the kuro/Kuro Elites, and the sig series doesn't have internal tuners. I don't think it does that if the input is from hdmi.

2. you shouldn't have any fan noise unless the internal fans are activated due to a heat issue. I have never heard or seen the 3 upper internal fans switch on even during 224 straight hours using the breakin dvd, panel sitting on a stand with plenty of room and normal room temps 74-76 degrees.

If you get a panel that has audible buzzes from the front glass that is a different issue.

3. again robert mentioned 3rd week of june ~ first week of july for the initial releases with the Elites a month behind that and the Sig series to follow in the fall.

.......1)if the 9g regular kuro can outperforme an 8g elite then this gets me back into step 1 if i should buy the PRO-1150 for $2,400 or pay the extra to get that quality increase.?

remeber im going from panasonic PX75u for the purpose of better PQ so would it be wise to upgrade to the 9g? or is the diffrence small but still we know its there?

2) if the diffrence is significant then i can only imagen the elite 9g would slap the 8g elite correct? both in PQ i mean and respectly both the 8g and 9g pro calibrated...........

the 1150 is an excellent plasma made even better at the prices you can still get one at.

your considering going from a 42px75u and you will get 2 huge benefits. First going to a 50" from a 42" display will give you much more screen area and that alone can make a huge difference, you get 42% more screen area :):).

Second going from the px75u to either the 1150 or the 5020 will be the biggest difference you will see in pq improvements. that difference would be much more than between a 1150 and the 5020.

yes, the 5020 should have a slight edge since the 1150 cannot match it in black levels/contrast plus if you sit 6.5' or less you will get a a little more detail out of the 1080p screen. But it's your money your choice whether that edge is worth the extra $$$, plus waiting 1-2 months. I would ageee with robert and say wait on the 5020 then you spend a little more $$ and your happy you got the new 9G. Buying either the 1150 or 5020 you really can't go wrong.

Wow the Pioneer PDP-5020FD and Pioneer PDP-6020FD do have a pretty nice price ;)

1) A source that can send Deep Color (either 10, 12, or 16-bit instead of 8-bit; realize that only 12-bit is mandatory under the spec, so I suspect that all consumer "Deep Color" implementations will be as 12-bit words).

Overall though, it sounds like great theater times are ahead! :D

Any chance the PS3 Blu-ray could be turned into a 12-bit 'upscaler' in the future? (Or any chance it does already?)

Any chance the PS3 Blu-ray could be turned into a 12-bit 'upscaler' in the future? (Or any chance it does already?)
Actually this is a rather useless feature. If the source device just sends the data which is stored on the disk to the display, the display could do internal upscaling to 12 bits if it's really of any use. There's no need to do this in the source device. If the 9G Kuros do benefit from upscaled video bitdepth then they should do the upscaling themselves when receiving 8bit via HMDI.

so the BMW has better brakes?? stopping power is an important feature. Sorry Roman, I just had to :)

Ah, I would still rather have a 2008 Z06 Chevrolet Corvette. Sorry I just had to. he he.

Ah, I would still rather have a 2008 Z06 Chevrolet Corvette. Sorry I just had to. he he.

I'd love to have a thread that kept to the subject at hand where inside and OT jokes are kept to PM. :rolleyes:

Actually this is a rather useless feature. If the source device just sends the data which is stored on the disk to the display, the display could do internal upscaling to 12 bits if it's really of any use. There's no need to do this in the source device. If the 9G Kuros do benefit from upscaled video bitdepth then they should do the upscaling themselves when receiving 8bit via HMDI.

That's right. No need to, but in most cases, proper and or better video processing tend to be done within the player's side as opposed on the TV side.

Wow, I hope this is not the case with the 9G, Smooth BD motion and great PQ is my main reason for wanting this 9G unit. If the motion is juddery that would be a total deal breaker. Anyone care to chime in on this?

The motion judder that you might see is inherent in the disc you are playing and is not introduced by the plasma. A certain amount of judder is inherent in film-based productions. The Pioneer has a 'smooth' mode that reduces judder (if you desire) to a level that I haven't seen on any other display. However, since many people are expecting to see judder in movies (you see it at a movie theater), some find it almost disconcerting to not see it when using the smooth mode on the Pioneer.

[QUOTE=drkddell;13890921]


I would think an HDMI receiver is not required. Could you not simply plug the Pio blu-ray into your Kuro and get deep color? Is it possible to send the audio to your receiver separately? Just asking since I don't have an HDMI receiver.

I may have missed this, but the 8g was not capable of 'deep color' and I'm not sure if the 9g is. But since there are almost no sources for this, it was never much of a concern.

Edit: Just looked at the pdf on the Pro151 and see no mention at all of 'deep color'.

Yea, what's the point of 24fps if there's still a noticeable degree of judder? :eek:

Robert, Roman? Roadshow ppl? Did anyone see 24fps content on a 9G Panel? Which one? and is judder or flicker an issue?

I may have missed this, but the 8g was not capable of 'deep color' and I'm not sure if the 9g is. But since there are almost no sources for this, it was never much of a concern.

Edit: Just looked at the pdf on the Pro151 and see no mention at all of 'deep color'.

I noticed the same. You'd think based on the principle of 'if you've got it flaunt it' they'd list it in there if they had it to offer. They have the 1.3 HDMI's which optionally support deep color. But I'm with you, you can't trust what you don't see listed.

A good question for the people in the know: Can anyone say with certainty whether or not 9G's do deep color? and if so full 48bit RGB? Sources (and any other context or detail) would also be appreciated considering it's not listed anywhere on the PDFs and there is a lot of speculation currently ongoing. Tx.

I noticed that in the PDFs as well. Does that mean I'll finally get a zoom mode that gets rid of the cinemascope bars without distorting the image? I never used that vertically stretching zoom mode on my 8G Kuro, but if I could zoom the picture in and sacrifice some of the image information on the sides to fill the screen, that'd be great!

No kidding! Actually, I really like Cinema mode but it seems to only work in
SD or 480i. Can't remember. If they expanded that mode, I would be more
than happy.

Monoprice's 1.3a HDMI Cable (22AWG) - 25ft http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10243&cs_id=1024001&p_id=3657&seq=1&format=3#specification (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_i.d=102&cp_id=10243&cs_id=1024001&p_id=3657&seq=1&format=3#specification) will do the trick for a great price: 340MHz tested

Their 22awg longer runs should work as well, I have their 35".....

Actually this is a rather useless feature. If the source device just sends the data which is stored on the disk to the display, the display could do internal upscaling to 12 bits if it's really of any use. There's no need to do this in the source device. If the 9G Kuros do benefit from upscaled video bitdepth then they should do the upscaling themselves when receiving 8bit via HMDI.

Here is how the Pio rep described it:

"The HDMI High Speed Transmission feature scales a BD discs 8-bit color signal to 12-bits per channel resulting in a 36-bit color signal. We actually interpolate what colors were lost in the creation of the BD disc by comparing 3 video frames (compare frame 1 to frame 2 and frame 3 to frame 2). We have seen some content from the Pixar folks that utilize 14-bit color.

The circuit is quite effective. We gave a demonstration showing a 100 grey scale chart from both a Denon 3800 and our new BDP-05FD. We utilized two PRO-FHD1 plasma displays. On the Denon player you can clearly see the lines between each gradiation of grey. On the Pioneer player with this circuit activated the same image showed a perfectly smooth grey scale (No lines).

The end result is that the player now can choose from a pallet of 69 billion colors instead of the 16.7 million that the 8-bit players use."

So, one doesn't need a 9G Kuro to get the upsampling benefit from the Pio BR player.

Robert, Roman? Roadshow ppl? Did anyone see 24fps content on a 9G Panel? Which one? and is judder or flicker an issue?

Judder and flicker are not an issue on 8gs, so I wouldn't expect them to be an issue on 9gs.

So, one doesn't need a 9G Kuro to get the upsampling benefit from the Pio BR player.

Especially true if there is no difference in how color is handled from the 8g to the 9g. Judging from the pdf, there isn't.

Especially true if there is no difference in how color is handled from the 8g to the 9g. Judging from the pdf, there isn't.

Hmmm... I wonder if this is something someone with insider info might be able to clarify.. If not on the 9G, I wonder if Deep Color is planned for the 10G.. D-Nice anything you can add? I see you tackled this in an earlier thread but I never saw a conclusive answer. If Kuro can do Deep Color, why isn't it advertised? What is the bit depth on the 9G and is it going up on the 10G?

PS: Just to confuse things a little more, I found this link/quote from Pio Japan release about the 8G's in the 8G thread.


"Three HDMI 1.3 terminals supports 1080p/60-Hz and 1080p/24-Hz input signals, and Deep Color 36-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths for color reproducibility of greater detail as well as 16-bit, 20-bit, and 24-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths."
SOURCE: http://pioneer.jp/press/release180.html

Now is that factual/accurate? Does it apply to NA models too? And has anything changed from 8G to 9G as far as deep color is concerned? Anyone know if it will change 9G -> 10G?

Just to let you know, 8G (and I believe 7G) were 10-bit. The thing that was
explained to me by my ISF calibrator was Deep-Color uses a different color
reference to what Pioneer uses, which is why the 8G and previous cannot be
classified to support Deep-Color.

Hmmm.. So I wonder how the color reproduction compares to the 800U which advertises Deep Color.

Judder and flicker are not an issue on 8gs, so I wouldn't expect them to be an issue on 9gs.

True True ;)

I'd love to have a thread that kept to the subject at hand where inside and OT jokes are kept to PM. :rolleyes:

I was not going to respond but common if you dont joke once in a while whats the point? :rolleyes:

I was not going to respond but common if you dont joke once in a while whats the point? :rolleyes:

...to discuss and learn more about Pioneer 9G Kuro's?... :rolleyes:

And while I've got your attention Roman what can you tell us about the bit depth of the 9G Kuro panels and about 'deep color' capability?

...to discuss and learn more about Pioneer 9G Kuro's?... :rolleyes:

And while I've got your attention Roman what can you tell us about the bit depth of the 9G Kuro panels and about 'deep color' capability?

Roman has a sense of humor, he might not be able to comment and adhere to your stoic demands :)

John

Deep Color is one of the biggest scams in HD history. It is a completely worthelsss feature as nothing uses it. BD doesn't have it in it's spec nor will ever include it. Please get off the Deep Color marketing bandwagon :)

BTW, 8G Kuro do support Deep Color. 8G owners, it's in your manual ;)

haha. guess that solves this little scooby doo mystery

Deep Color is one of the biggest scams in HD history. It is a completely worthelsss feature as nothing uses it. BD doesn't have it in it's spec nor will ever include it. Please get off the Deep Color marketing bandwagon :)

BTW, 8G Kuro do support Deep Color. 8G owners, it's in your manual ;)

Well, there's the answer. I guess I missed that detail in my manual. I guess
I have a few more of my messages to delete. Don't want to flood this thread
with wrong info. :)

Just to let you know, 8G (and I believe 7G) were 10-bit. The thing that was explained to me by my ISF calibrator was Deep-Color uses a different color reference to what Pioneer uses, which is why the 8G and previous cannot be classified to support Deep-Color.

Also, even though Pioneer boasts things like deepest blacks and such, they
seem to omit other details . Stuff like the true contrast ratio and the fact that the panels were (are?) 10-bit for a few generations aren't mentioned. I guess with all the features they boast about, there are other things that get missed for some reason. The way I see it, Deep-Color support is hyped by many manufacturers but it's not {yet} implemented on a large (or even small) scale. Supposedly neither blu-ray nor HD-DVD supported it, which is kinda pointless. Dunno if things changed, but if pioneer's blu-ray player somehow does something to upscale/convert/whatever to 10 or 12-bit processing that Pioneer plasmas will utilize, then my guess is that it's more related to their own reference palette. Of course, this is all conjecture on my
part so don't take me seriously. I haven't read the spec on their new player, just going by some stuff I've read here.The European 8g's certainly support Deep Color, however I think you're right that Pioneer has 10 bit video processing, so I guess they have to downsample the incoming 12/16 bit signal.

Deep Color is indeed not part of the Blu-Ray spec, and even if it was the Studio HD Masters are only in 8 bit so would require remastering to produce Blu-Ray discs with Deep Color. So I think plentiful supply of source material with genuine Deep Color is some time off yet.

I think the only sources at the moment are the PS3 and some digital camcorders.

Deep color was developed for future BD and HD DVD, but to date has not been authored on and discs. Deep Color adds more colors to the pallet. To date no sources are available with Deep Color.

However, Pioneer's new BD players, 05FD and 51FD up-convert the BD 8 bit per color disc to output 12 bit per color channel. Effectively, this increases the useful colors from 16,7000 to 69 billion colors and honestly if I did not see it with my own eyes I would not believe it either. The pq is truly improved, better color accuracy, better color saturation and definition, the image looks more 3-D.

Pioneer achieves this in its new 36 bit DAC that looks at each color (RGB) in the frames in advance and actually interpolate what colors were lost in the creation of the BD disc by comparing 3 video frames (compare frame 1 to frame 2 and frame 3 to frame 2).

Honestly when you connect these new 4 Gen Pioneer BD players with the 9 Gen Kuros you get a image that is appreciably improved and can easily be seen by anyone. These devices are very well matched to take advantage of each other's powerful HD image reproduction capabilities.

Hey anyone see my road show pictures yet?

-Robert

I'm not sure if it has been stated yet or not, but is the input panel on the 6020 located and configured the same as the 6010?

Thanks

Oh BTW.....I just took the plunge on the 6020.

Thanks Roman.....you're great to work with. ;)

I also pulled the trigger on a 6020:D

Thanks Roman, you da man.

The next 2 months are going to be hard waiting to get my hands on that baby!

Question for Robert (or any other knowledgeable source):

Can the new Pioneer BD players output 480i? If so, would it still be worth purchasing an Oppo 980 (i.e., does the Oppo 980 display traditional DVDs better than the Pioneer BD players)? I already have a PS3, but after reading your testimonials, I'm pretty psyched about the new Pioneers.

Also, I asked before, but nobody answered . . . do the non-Elites upscale/deinterlace better than the Oppo 983 would? I know the Elites have better software, but is the non-Elite software still good?

Thanks!

Deep Color is one of the biggest scams in HD history. It is a completely worthelsss feature as nothing uses it. BD doesn't have it in it's spec nor will ever include it. Please get off the Deep Color marketing bandwagon :)

BTW, 8G Kuro do support Deep Color. 8G owners, it's in your manual ;)

Now, I'm really confused. Please clarify in a bit more detail. Also, do you have any info regarding how the 9G displays integrate w/their new Pioneer BD Players & Pioneer Receivers, and what advantages they may offer in terms of buying all three components for an HT System? Thanks.

Chris, Pioneer only used Elite PRO-151FD for every class room so we viewed the Pioneer non-Elite BD player 05FD on PRO-151FD with BD discs. I would assume the pq advantage would be the same if not very close on non-Elite 9 Gen panels.

-Robert

Judder and flicker are not an issue on 8gs, so I wouldn't expect them to be an issue on 9gs.

Thanks for the clarification!

Where are they? I think I missed that post...



Hey anyone see my road show pictures yet?

-Robert

Where are they? I think I missed that post...

I would like to see the pictures, can you please point us to the link.

Chris, Pioneer only used Elite PRO-151FD for every class room so we viewed the Pioneer non-Elite BD player 05FD on PRO-151FD with BD discs. I would assume the pq advantage would be the same if not very close on non-Elite 9 Gen panels.

-Robert

Robert...Great to hear thanks for info!

Chris

D-nice and Robert, thank you both so much for your input.

Deep color was developed for future BD and HD DVD, but to date has not been authored on and discs. Deep Color adds more colors to the pallet. To date no sources are available with Deep Color.

Yes, but can't PS3 upscale or doesn't it have deep color capability with gaming? How about PC via HDMI output?

However, Pioneer's new BD players, 05FD and 51FD up-convert the BD 8 bit per color disc to output 12 bit per color channel. Effectively, this increases the useful colors from 16,7000 to 69 billion colors and honestly if I did not see it with my own eyes I would not believe it either.
2 Q's from this, doesn't the PS3 do this as well? And if the Kuro is 10 bit (forgive me if I'm missing something), but how can it ever display the full 69 billion 12-bit?

Pioneer achieves this in its new 36 bit DAC that looks at each color (RGB) in the frames in advance and actually interpolate what colors were lost in the creation of the BD disc by comparing 3 video frames (compare frame 1 to frame 2 and frame 3 to frame 2).

And this is done on the Kuro TV's? So they are 36-bit and not 10 bit? Or was that on the new BD players? :confused: So 9G's do deep color like 8G's do? Why isn't this advertised or noted in the specs?

Hey anyone see my road show pictures yet?
Hey Robert no I haven't! I was looking for them but didn't see them on your website. Could you please post (or PM me) a link?? thanks!!

I would like to see those pictures as well. :)

Can't wait for the 9G's. I currently have a 5070, and the black levels are not as good as I'd like 'em. I haven't even seen the 8g's outside of a bright showroom.

Basically I find watching TV with the lights dimmed or off not a very good experience. Would you say these new models are acceptable with a darkened (pitch black!) room?

Thanks

Click on his ad on the bottom of the page for the pics.(valueelctronics.com)

The emperor cloths :D

Click on his ad on the bottom of the page for the pics.(valueelctronics.com)I can't see anything on http://www.********************* about the Pioneer roadshow :confused:

Use this link...

http://rev.avsforum.com/revsense/index.php?section=redir&zid=481b5a2377ed4&affid=0&kid=0

Does every part of the home theater HAVE to be Pioneer to get this improved quality?

How about a PS3 HDMI to a Pioneer VSX94 and HDMI to a 151FD?

Do you have to have a Pioneer Blu-Ray player to get that same picture quality? I thought PS3 supported Deep Color and could upconvert as well?

Dennis

I can't see anything on http://www.********************* about the Pioneer roadshow :confused:

Click on where it says "AVS Forum Sponsor Specials":D

Click on where it says "AVS Forum Sponsor Specials":DThanks, found them now :) Was going straight to website before, doh :rolleyes:

Deep color was developed for future BD and HD DVD,
-Robert

Deep color isn't part of either spec. For it to be part of BR spec, you'd need new hardware. I don't see it happening.

Also, thanks for the pics. Hoping to get more info on the monitors at some point. While they seem nice n' fancy, I wonder if there will actually be a noticeable PQ difference, outside of "theoretically"

Does every part of the home theater HAVE to be Pioneer to get this improved quality?

How about a PS3 HDMI to a Pioneer VSX94 and HDMI to a 151FD?

Do you have to have a Pioneer Blu-Ray player to get that same picture quality? I thought PS3 supported Deep Color and could upconvert as well?

Dennis

I would like to know this as well as I have a PS3 and VSX-94TX that will be mated to a 151FD.

hi all,

I stumbled onto this forum while looking for info on the new pioneer plasmas. i currently have a toshiba 24" CRT.

after reading general reviews of Pioneers and after reading about the new 9th generation plasmas, i decided i was going to pull the trigger and buy a new 5020 or 6020.

however, after reading this forum, it seems like if you get one picture setting wrong or purchase the wrong cable, then you've just totally ruined your investment. this leads me to wonder whether the pioneer 98 is the best choice for someone who simply wants to be blown away by a great picture, but who lacks the skill to make the most out of the unit. thanks.

Hi bartleby79 first welcome to the site and this site also has great amount of info and more coming. as far as the wrong cable or setting that goes with any tv while it may not look bad on a pioneer it could have better results if you go to suggest settings.

that being said dont take that into a factor that the pioneer would look bad because if you do then you are only going to held back and not get these nice tvs, and you will still see that other tvs would still fall to the same issue which is if a tv has in proper dials of ajustments it can yeild to degrade of PQ on Any tv.... good luck getting one of these new pioneers




hi all,

I stumbled onto this forum while looking for info on the new pioneer plasmas. i currently have a toshiba 24" CRT.

after reading general reviews of Pioneers and after reading about the new 9th generation plasmas, i decided i was going to pull the trigger and buy a new 5020 or 6020.

however, after reading this forum, it seems like if you get one picture setting wrong or purchase the wrong cable, then you've just totally ruined your investment. this leads me to wonder whether the pioneer 98 is the best choice for someone who simply wants to be blown away by a great picture, but who lacks the skill to make the most out of the unit. thanks.

hi all,

I stumbled onto this forum while looking for info on the new pioneer plasmas. i currently have a toshiba 24" CRT.

after reading general reviews of Pioneers and after reading about the new 9th generation plasmas, i decided i was going to pull the trigger and buy a new 5020 or 6020.

however, after reading this forum, it seems like if you get one picture setting wrong or purchase the wrong cable, then you've just totally ruined your investment. this leads me to wonder whether the pioneer 98 is the best choice for someone who simply wants to be blown away by a great picture, but who lacks the skill to make the most out of the unit. thanks.

Welcome to AVS!

AVS is mainly an enthusiast forum, and thus you encounter those people seeking AV perfection. The information & knowledge you gain on this forum is light years away from what you might experience when visiting the big stores, and although it may seem a bit much to take in all at once, you really should just continue reading a lot and ask questions when you come across something you don't understand. Try to research your product thoroughly or the best you can.

ALL new TV's out of the box need & require some type of adjustment. Factory settings are generally set to sell the product at the store, and not for viewing in the comfort of your home. Setting up your new TV is no big deal, and after reading through your manual you can get advice here on AVS as to preferred settings for your model. Also, there are DIY calibration disks sold over the internet & in the stores that aid in the proper setup. For those people that want the very best & accurate calibration for their displays, they pay for a professional ISF Tech to visit their home. This pertains to ALL TV's, not just Pioneer 9G's.

Robert thanks again so i take it the "PRO" was a typo on the PDP-5020FD?
that being said that recommend the 9g kuro does make me more closer to 9g
is their any disadvantages that 9g could have over 8g? other then of course just wait time and as always the possiblity of bugs on the first batch?

i'm also still cosern about the auto sensor that adjust to the room condition.

Once again thanks Robert

I like the 9G PRO-5020FD for you, but you would be happy with the 8G PRO-1150HD. Personal choice, but I recommend the newer Kuro.

-Robert


Thanks dssturbo1 i'll take it into consideration.

i'm also still cosern about the auto sensor that adjust to the room condition.


You can turn off the sensor/use a different mode instead of optimum.

Hey anyone see my road show pictures yet?

-Robert

Robert, the pictures rock! I'm salivating even more now. From the looks of it, a great time was had. Thanks for taking the time and sharing a piece of it with us. http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/113.gif

Deep color isn't part of either spec. For it to be part of BR spec, you'd need new hardware. I don't see it happening.

Also, thanks for the pics. Hoping to get more info on the monitors at some point. While they seem nice n' fancy, I wonder if there will actually be a noticeable PQ difference, outside of "theoretically"

I understand and agree, however, BD and HD DVD discs are the only source media capable and studios have indicated an interest in authoring Deep color in the future.

Pioneer has taken a big step here on their 4th Gen BD players and they match up the 9 Gen Kuro panels for a very impressive image quality experence.

-Robert

You can turn off the sensor/use a different mode instead of optimum.

Yes.

-Robert

Pioneer has taken a big step here on their 4th Gen BD players and they match up the 9 Gen Kuro panels for a very impressive image quality experence.

Haha why do I feel like you spent a past life as a politician Robert... :rolleyes:

Deep Color is one of the biggest scams in HD history. It is a completely worthelsss feature as nothing uses it. BD doesn't have it in it's spec nor will ever include it. Please get off the Deep Color marketing bandwagon :)

BTW, 8G Kuro do support Deep Color. 8G owners, it's in your manual ;)

So now you want me to read? :D

But I agree with D-Nice, what's the point of having a feature that no software supports? Additionally, the only time I've seen a review where deep color was actually 'experienced', the reviewer said it was akin to appearing as if the color were turned up slightly. Whoopee.

Robert, the pictures rock! I'm salivating even more now. From the looks of it, a great time was had. Thanks for taking the time and sharing a piece of it with us. http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/113.gif


by the look of the pictures they had a great day but i only noticed two pictures of an 8g and a 9g is it wrong to expect more:eek::confused:



http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c165/cori738/PRO1102011120Optinum20mode.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c165/cori738/PRO11120and20110.jpg

Deep color was developed for future BD and HD DVD, but to date has not been authored on and discs. Deep Color adds more colors to the pallet. To date no sources are available with Deep Color.

However, Pioneer's new BD players, 05FD and 51FD up-convert the BD 8 bit per color disc to output 12 bit per color channel. Effectively, this increases the useful colors from 16,7000 to 69 billion colors and honestly if I did not see it with my own eyes I would not believe it either. The pq is truly improved, better color accuracy, better color saturation and definition, the image looks more 3-D.

Pioneer achieves this in its new 36 bit DAC that looks at each color (RGB) in the frames in advance and actually interpolate what colors were lost in the creation of the BD disc by comparing 3 video frames (compare frame 1 to frame 2 and frame 3 to frame 2).

Honestly when you connect these new 4 Gen Pioneer BD players with the 9 Gen Kuros you get a image that is appreciably improved and can easily be seen by anyone. These devices are very well matched to take advantage of each other's powerful HD image reproduction capabilities.

Hey anyone see my road show pictures yet?

-Robert

It does sound like the new Pioneer 05 will be a winner Robert, put one aside for me! But I wonder if the same benefit can be seen on the 8g Pioneers. I still haven't heard about how the "Pioneer PDP" mode works in the 05. How does it 'communicate' with the plasma and why is it different than a simple HDMI connection without this mode?

by the look of the pictures they had a great day but i only noticed two pictures of an 8g and a 9g is it wrong to expect more:eek::confused:



http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c165/cori738/PRO1102011120Optinum20mode.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c165/cori738/PRO11120and20110.jpg


I took a ton of photos, but with no tripod and of course, I could not use a flash. Most of the photos have some camera blur from the long time exposures. I set the ASA to 1600 and took a deep breath while holding the camera with two hands and my arms were tucked against my chest but still the TVs display changing frames and the slight camera movement made most of the photos not usable.

I do have a few 110/110 shoot out photo's and some showing many of the competitors top CE panels in a shoot-out so I'll be rotating some new photos over the next weeks so stay tuned as we have more to come.

-Robert

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c165/cori738/PRO11120and20110.jpg

Uh-oh. Stuck pixel? LOL :P I wonder what the return policy is on training sets? :D

Deep color was developed for future BD and HD DVD, but to date has not been authored on and discs. Deep Color adds more colors to the pallet. To date no sources are available with Deep Color.

However, Pioneer's new BD players, 05FD and 51FD up-convert the BD 8 bit per color disc to output 12 bit per color channel. Effectively, this increases the useful colors from 16,7000 to 69 billion colors and honestly if I did not see it with my own eyes I would not believe it either. The pq is truly improved, better color accuracy, better color saturation and definition, the image looks more 3-D.

Pioneer achieves this in its new 36 bit DAC that looks at each color (RGB) in the frames in advance and actually interpolate what colors were lost in the creation of the BD disc by comparing 3 video frames (compare frame 1 to frame 2 and frame 3 to frame 2).

Honestly when you connect these new 4 Gen Pioneer BD players with the 9 Gen Kuros you get a image that is appreciably improved and can easily be seen by anyone. These devices are very well matched to take advantage of each other's powerful HD image reproduction capabilities.

Hey anyone see my road show pictures yet?

-Robert

So now you want me to read? :D

But I agree with D-Nice, what's the point of having a feature that no software supports? Additionally, the only time I've seen a review where deep color was actually 'experienced', the reviewer said it was akin to appearing as if the color were turned up slightly. Whoopee.

Ken, personally and professionally I have the highest of respect for D-Nice and you sir. However, had I not seen this demonstrated with my own eyes I would never believed it, but you will be blown-away and I give you my personal guaranty of your 100% satisfaction. These guys hit a grand slam home run out of the park.

-Robert

Uh-oh. Stuck pixel? LOL :P I wonder what the return policy is on training sets? :D

Any stick pixel you see was generated by my camera system.

-Robert

Any stick pixel you see was generated by my camera system.

:D I figured as much, I was just teasing. Thanks for all the pics Robert. Looks like a great party with a well deserved invitee. ;)

Can you tell me though do you know from the specs: How many billions of colors can the 9G display (or what is its bit depth? Is it the 36-bit DAC you mentioned earlier?) And how is this different from / the same as Deep Color? And if it is the same, why isn't it mentioned at all in the promotional literature / press releases?

Robert,

I had sent you a PM on a follow up from earlier this week on Friday. I have not heard back from you so I sent an email to your sales address at work earlier today.

Not to be a pain and I know your busy but if you could (I understand if your not working) I planned on spending today trying to figure out what and who I'm going to be buying merchandise from.

Thanks,

Sean E

I was thinking about getting another PS3 as my next Blu Ray player because I am a gamer.

Having read Robert's posts though, he's got me half way convinced to shell out for a dedicated Pioneer Blu Ray player.

Robert, is it really THAT impressive? You seem like you were blown away . . .

And would I need a Pioneer AVR SC-05 or SC-07 or can a VSX94TXH serve as well as long as I have the 9G kuro and a 4G Blu Ray player?

This is a hard call because for someone like me, the PS3 really offers quite a bit more value as I play games almost as much if not more than watch high def bluray movies . . .

Dennis

HDCanHD,

No problem.

Not sure how may colors the panel can display so if anyone knows please post it, otherwise I'll find out if you want to know.

The 36 bit DAC I was referring to is in the new BD players, 051FD and 05FD. This more powerful processing converter Pioneer worked very closely developing with a new video chip supplier, hence the technology jump. It's actually 12 bits per (RGB) color channel.

-Robert

Robert,

Thanks for the pictures and taking the time to post them ...

The bottom still of the 'paragraph' comes across much crisper

The bottom still of the 'girl and guy' does have better colour ... but as far as my monitor shows ... it seems his face is so dark he looses detail. Is that my monitor, the photo or the Pioneer?

I was thinking about getting another PS3 as my next Blu Ray player because I am a gamer.

Having read Robert's posts though, he's got me half way convinced to shell out for a dedicated Pioneer Blu Ray player.

Robert, is it really THAT impressive? You seem like you were blown away . . .

And would I need a Pioneer AVR SC-05 or SC-07 or can a VSX94TXH serve as well as long as I have the 9G kuro and a 4G Blu Ray player?

This is a hard call because for someone like me, the PS3 really offers quite a bit more value as I play games almost as much if not more than watch high def bluray movies . . .

Dennis


in regards to dennis post robert are we correct to expect that a newer BD player say after this model will cary this deep color or whatever inpressed you to be seen in the future models?

and robert sorry i should of asked you if can post these pictures and even if the pictures that you took didnt came out the best hopefully it will be enough to show a significant diffrence between an 8g and 9g . so far we'v seen two pictures....

edit : timberwolf i noticed that the better picture lost some detail is this consider black crush? i cant see the guys beard as aposed to the first pic.

Robert,

I had sent you a PM on a follow up from earlier this week on Friday. I have not heard back from you so I sent an email to your sales address at work earlier today.

Not to be a pain and I know your busy but if you could (I understand if your not working) I planned on spending today trying to figure out what and who I'm going to be buying merchandise from.

Thanks,

Sean E

I've been busy working for my beloved AVS Forum and its VIP membership while also helping Pioneer and a few competitors, sorry my customers had to take a back seat during my hectic community service time.

I'm back to VE tomorrow and will be very gracious to my supporters.

-Robert

Robert,

What's the MSRP on the Elite player and the AVR you saw this demo on?

Not sure how may colors the panel can display so if anyone knows please post it, otherwise I'll find out if you want to know. Yes please and thank you Robert, if it's not too much trouble I would very much like to know the answer to the following q's:
1) Can the 9G Kuro's display 'deep color'/xvYCC?
2) If so / if not, what bit depth does it display? 30-, 36-, or 48-bit RGB?
3) If so / if not, what is the total number of colors (rough in millions/billions) that the 9G is capable of reproducing?

Thanks very much for your time and attention on these questions (and all my other ones too)!

HDCanHD,

No problem.

Not sure how may colors the panel can display so if anyone knows please post it, otherwise I'll find out if you want to know.

The 36 bit DAC I was referring to is in the new BD players, 051FD and 05FD. This more powerful processing converter Pioneer worked very closely developing with a new video chip supplier, hence the technology jump. It's actually 12 bits per (RGB) color channel.

-Robert

DAC stands for digital to analog conversion which should not be happening on an HDMI connection. :p

t seems that the first panles are here in Sweden now :eek: :cool:

DAC stands for digital to analog conversion which should not be happening on an HDMI connection. :p

Haha, every n00b has to start somewhere. This thread is as good a place as any. ;) Thanks for the enlightenment ;)

I've been busy working for my beloved AVS Forum and its VIP membership while also helping Pioneer and a few competitors, sorry my customers had to take a back seat during my hectic community service time.

I'm back to VE tomorrow and will be very gracious to my supporters.

-Robert

I figured you were just indulging in your passion today! Enjoy :D:D:D And I'll wait to hear from you this week.

Cheers,

Sean

I was thinking about getting another PS3 as my next Blu Ray player because I am a gamer.

Having read Robert's posts though, he's got me half way convinced to shell out for a dedicated Pioneer Blu Ray player.

Robert, is it really THAT impressive? You seem like you were blown away . . .

And would I need a Pioneer AVR SC-05 or SC-07 or can a VSX94TXH serve as well as long as I have the 9G kuro and a 4G Blu Ray player?

This is a hard call because for someone like me, the PS3 really offers quite a bit more value as I play games almost as much if not more than watch high def bluray movies . . .

Dennis

I am sure Pioneer's 51FD or 05FD would deliver a better BD pq vs. the PS3, especially when pared with a Kuro panel as these two devises exploit their superiority and give you the biggest possible bang for your buck possible. I strongly recommend anyone who has a 8 Gen or will be getting a 9G Kuro to buy this sub $600 BD player.

However, only you can make the final decision as I understand and respect that for gamers the value of having a gaming console built-in to your BD player makes it a more difficult decision.

Regarding the AVR question, their is another exclusive advantage to connecting a Pioneer BD player 51FD or 05FD BD player to an Elite AVR model SC05 or SC07 in the circuit and that's the use of the SC05's or SC07's very precise quartz clock timing. The SC05 and SC07 back feed its internal clock and timing through the HDMI cable to the BD player for jitter free CD playback. This feature actually works very very effectively, listeners in a A/B shoot out can easily hear the audio sounds clearer and cleaner.

-Robert

timberwolf i noticed that the better picture lost some detail is this consider black crush? i cant see the guys beard as aposed to the first pic.

If you see it too ... it is not my monitor

Robert, is it the photo or are the 9G's too 'kuro'?

I am sure Pioneer's 51FD or 05FD would deliver a better BD pq vs. the PS3, especially when pared with a Kuro panel as these two devises exploit their superiority and give you the biggest possible bang for your buck possible. I strongly recommend anyone who has a 8 Gen or will be getting a 9G Kuro to buy this sub $600 BD player.

However, only you can make the final decision as I understand and respect that for gamers the value of having a gaming console built-in to your BD player makes it a more difficult decision.

Regarding the AVR question, their is another exclusive advantage to connecting a Pioneer BD player 51FD or 05FD BD player to an Elite AVR model SC05 or SC07 in the circuit and that's the use of the SC05's or SC07's very precise quartz clock timing. The SC05 and SC07 back feed its internal clock and timing through the HDMI cable to the BD player for jitter free CD playback. This feature actually works very very effectively, listeners in a A/B shoot out can easily hear the audio sounds clearer and cleaner.

-Robert
Hello,

I was wondering why it is important to buy Elites or any pioneer from authorised dealers only for the warranty to be valid. That is totally unfair to the consumer. How many people buying pioneers will actually know about this policy unless they read all the small lines in the website. Also Pioneer does not advertise that on the carton about the warranty.

I also noticed that Panasonic honors warranty no matter who you buy it from as long as you have a proof of purchase

Now, I'm really confused. Please clarify in a bit more detail.Clarify what?

Also, do you have any info regarding how the 9G displays integrate w/their new Pioneer BD Players & Pioneer Receivers, and what advantages they may offer in terms of buying all three components for an HT System? Thanks.The new BD players, when set to Pioneer PDP output mode, sends data that takes full advantage to of PDPs dither and virtual grayscale driving technique. The A/V receivers oly bring to the table jitter-free CD playback of HDMI.....nothing new on the Video side of things.

lol on the "too kuro" hmm perheps the best new 9g is more then we bargin for? this seems like a set back compared to 8g kuro man i hope this is certainly the camera i dont want to have doulbts about my consideration to the 9g robert can you confirm this?

btw im viewing in my CRT pc



If you see it too ... it is not my monitor

Robert, is it the photo or are the 9G's too 'kuro'?

Does every part of the home theater HAVE to be Pioneer to get this improved quality?

How about a PS3 HDMI to a Pioneer VSX94 and HDMI to a 151FD?

Do you have to have a Pioneer Blu-Ray player to get that same picture quality? I thought PS3 supported Deep Color and could upconvert as well?

Dennis
You need the Pioneer BD player for the "tweaked" PQ performance.

Regarding the AVR question, their is another exclusive advantage to connecting a Pioneer BD player 51FD or 05FD BD player to an Elite AVR model SC05 or SC07 in the circuit and that's the use of the SC05's or SC07's very precise quartz clock timing. The SC05 and SC07 back feed its internal clock and timing through the HDMI cable to the BD player for jitter free CD playback. This feature actually works very very effectively, listeners in a A/B shoot out can easily hear the audio sounds clearer and cleaner.

-Robert
Robert,

I realize you're burning the candle at both ends trying to keep us informed, but at your next spare moment, you think you might be able to drop by the Amp, Receivers, and Processors forum and give us a bit more of your impressions of the SC09?

I could be mistaken, but I believe you made some reference to the fact that Pioneer was trying to pay attention to offering decent 2 ch sound with this unit? If that's the case, I'd like to learn more, but I don't wish to take this thread anymore off topic than I've just done (my apologies to the thread members here).

PDPs dither and virtual grayscale driving technique.

D-Nice, I'm still stuck in CRT land, one of the advantages to that is having lightning fast input response (no input lag). Lately I've been thinking about getting back into console gaming once I get my plasma and I'm wondering what kind of impact these driving techniques (I assume they require considerable processing power) have on input lag relative to CRTs and other plasmas and LCDs?

D-Nice, I'm still stuck in CRT land, one of the advantages to that is having lightning fast input response (no input lag). Lately I've been thinking about getting back into console gaming once I get my plasma and I'm wondering what kind of impact these driving techniques (I assume they require considerable processing power) have on input lag relative to CRTs and other plasmas and LCDs?I'm not qualified to answer this question as I do not play games :)

I'm not qualified to answer this question as I do not play games :)

:( OK, same question to any of the other PDP gurus out there.

:( OK, same question to any of the other PDP gurus out there.

well i dont consider my self a guru but a picky gamer :p i made the switch from a crt RCA F38310 38" widescreen 16x9 to the panny PX75u and was satisfied of the response and what not

but here i go on the bandwagon to get the Best PQ, HOWEVER wasnt it proven that the 8g kuro out performed CRT's? specifcally a member on the 8g show his pic of his rca crt side with the 8g kuro ...

well i dont consider my self a guru but a picky gamer :p i made the switch from a crt RCA F38310 38" widescreen 16x9 to the panny PX75u and was satisfied of the response and what not

but here i go on the bandwagon to get the Best PQ, HOWEVER wasnt it proven that the 8g kuro out performed CRT's? specifcally a member on the 8g show his pic of his rca crt side with the 8g kuro ...

I don't remember the Kuro "outperforming" the CRT, although, one shot did show that the Kuro was displaying the same frame, but in other shots the Kuro was behind by a few frames.

Waboman ^^ scheduled for the end of July, not sooner.

-Robert

So why are they not being released in june like the press release shows? Has there been a setback or something?
Now I have to decide whether I should just get a 6020 now or wait another month and get the 151.

That's right. No need to, but in most cases, proper and or better video processing tend to be done within the player's side as opposed on the TV side.
That depends a lot on the source device and the TV you're choosing. I've heard about so many problems with specific players. E.g. BTB/WTW cut off, wrong color matrix being used, noise reduction always on etc etc. I think if you get a really good TV chances are good that it's better to use the TV's video processing opposed to the source device's. Especially because if you let the source device do the processing, the TV will usually add some further processing on top of that, too. And having two devices doing violence to the video data is never a good idea.

"The HDMI High Speed Transmission feature scales a BD discs 8-bit color signal to 12-bits per channel resulting in a 36-bit color signal. We actually interpolate what colors were lost in the creation of the BD disc by comparing 3 video frames (compare frame 1 to frame 2 and frame 3 to frame 2). We have seen some content from the Pixar folks that utilize 14-bit color.

The circuit is quite effective. We gave a demonstration showing a 100 grey scale chart from both a Denon 3800 and our new BDP-05FD. We utilized two PRO-FHD1 plasma displays. On the Denon player you can clearly see the lines between each gradiation of grey. On the Pioneer player with this circuit activated the same image showed a perfectly smooth grey scale (No lines).

The end result is that the player now can choose from a pallet of 69 billion colors instead of the 16.7 million that the 8-bit players use."
However, Pioneer's new BD players, 05FD and 51FD up-convert the BD 8 bit per color disc to output 12 bit per color channel. Effectively, this increases the useful colors from 16,7000 to 69 billion colors and honestly if I did not see it with my own eyes I would not believe it either. The pq is truly improved, better color accuracy, better color saturation and definition, the image looks more 3-D.

Pioneer achieves this in its new 36 bit DAC that looks at each color (RGB) in the frames in advance and actually interpolate what colors were lost in the creation of the BD disc by comparing 3 video frames (compare frame 1 to frame 2 and frame 3 to frame 2).
Thanks Trackman and DTV TiVo Dealer. It's good to finally get a technical explanation for that "Kuro mode" in the new Blu-Ray players. I have two things to say about this, though:

(1) The very same thing could be done in the display itself. Then it would also work for all sources and not only for Blu-Ray input. And it would also work for other Blu-Ray players, for the PS3 etc. My opinion stays the same: If the 9G Kuros benefit from this RGB color bitdepth upsampling then the Kuro should do that itself - and not depend on being fed this information from the source device.

(2) That algorithm sounds scary to me. It almost sounds like those motion smoother algorithms which interpolate intermediate images: There's a lot of guessing going on, which can go wrong. What we REALLY need is an accurate image with accurate colors. We don't need another JVC RS-1/2 stunt with a much too big color space to make the display look pleasing on a quick look - but inaccurate. Now I don't really know what effect this "intelligent" bitdepth upsampling algorithm will have in detail. Maybe it will never guess wrong. Maybe it will not harm color correctness. Then it might be welcome. But I have my doubts... Maybe Pioneer can publish some documents on how the feature works in detail?

:( OK, same question to any of the other PDP gurus out there.

I'm anything but a gaming guru. I do have a PS3 hooked up to a Panny 42PX60U. When playing Ratchet & Clank for example, there's no lag whatsoever. It's rock n roll time Peet.http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/111.gif

So why are they not being released in june like the press release shows? Has there been a setback or something?
Now I have to decide whether I should just get a 6020 now or wait another month and get the 151.

Wait for the 151!

It's only a month!

See signature below.:D

So why are they not being released in june like the press release shows? Has there been a setback or something?
Now I have to decide whether I should just get a 6020 now or wait another month and get the 151.

I was a little disappointed to hear that too. As Tom Petty sang so eloquently about in a song, "the waiting is the hardest part.":D

You need the Pioneer BD player for the "tweaked" PQ performance.

Well, as much as I'd like to have the "tweaked" performance, I just bought my PS3 back in June and it has rapidly become one of my favorite A/V devices of all-time. The ability to play Blu-Rays, PS3 games and stream all the media from my computer makes it invaluable. Maybe somewhere down the road I'll pick up a Pioneer BD player, but that probably won't be for a long time. Guess I'll have to "slum it" until then. ;)

I'm anything but a gaming guru. I do have a PS3 hooked up to a Panny 42PX60U. When playing Ratchet & Clank for example, there's no lag whatsoever. It's rock n roll time Peet.http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/111.gif


Thanks Waboman:).

Still, I'm wondering if the driving method in the Pioneers (which is different from Panasonic) would cause more lag than the other flat panels out there. This is not a deciding factor, picture quality is. I just want to know what kind of performance I should expect.

Wait for the 151!

It's only a month!

See signature below.:D

I think thats what I will do. But I am just so tired of waiting and having to use this phillips walmart plasma TV.
Going from a Kuro to a walmart phillips is like dating Carmen Elektra for a while and then being forced to date Rosey O'donelll.
And also,
This messes up the timing to return the philips to walmart. july 3rd will be 90 days. So I will be without a TV for a while. I have been holding myself back the last couple of days from calling invisions and pre-ordering the 6020. Don't know if I can hold back much longer lol.
But I know myself, if I get the 6020 I will regret it and want the Pro-151fd.
I will be so happy when me and my new Pro-151fd can be united and be together forever and ever (or at least until next year when the 10G zero idol luminance is availible).

That depends a lot on the source device and the TV you're choosing. I've heard about so many problems with specific players. E.g. BTB/WTW cut off, wrong color matrix being used, noise reduction always on etc etc. I think if you get a really good TV chances are good that it's better to use the TV's video processing opposed to the source device's. Especially because if you let the source device do the processing, the TV will usually add some further processing on top of that, too. And having two devices doing violence to the video data is never a good idea.

Thanks Trackman and DTV TiVo Dealer. It's good to finally get a technical explanation for that "Kuro mode" in the new Blu-Ray players. I have two things to say about this, though:

(1) The very same thing could be done in the display itself. Then it would also work for all sources and not only for Blu-Ray input. And it would also work for other Blu-Ray players, for the PS3 etc. My opinion stays the same: If the 9G Kuros benefit from this RGB color bitdepth upsampling then the Kuro should do that itself - and not depend on being fed this information from the source device.

(2) That algorithm sounds scary to me. It almost sounds like those motion smoother algorithms which interpolate intermediate images: There's a lot of guessing going on, which can go wrong. What we REALLY need is an accurate image with accurate colors. We don't need another JVC RS-1/2 stunt with a much too big color space to make the display look pleasing on a quick look - but inaccurate. Now I don't really know what effect this "intelligent" bitdepth upsampling algorithm will have in detail. Maybe it will never guess wrong. Maybe it will not harm color correctness. Then it might be welcome. But I have my doubts... Maybe Pioneer can publish some documents on how the feature works in detail?

Sorry to overly simplify my reply to your very well written technical post, but I must say the proof is in the pudding. The demonstration was very impressive, best pq I have ever seen. The results speak for themselves and you will see it too once these new a/v devices come to market.

-Robert

Slightly OT but I was looking for a complete sponsor list authorized to carry Kuro and have come up with the following: Cleveland Plasma, BuyBestPlasma, ****************, Invision and Plasma Concepts. Anyone I'm missing?

Robert,

Can you downsize your pictures and not upload the full image? Your way makes it so you have to download the full 8 megapixel I think they are. I right-clicked and said "view picture" the whole full sized resolution picture is there! I can't load the whole page because I run out of memory and my browser crashes. Could you please resize the pictures to the size shown on the page, and if someone wants to see the whole picture, have a link to that picture when you click on a picture? Thanks

Clarify what?

The new BD players, when set to Pioneer PDP output mode, sends data that takes full advantage to of PDPs dither and virtual grayscale driving technique. The A/V receivers oly bring to the table jitter-free CD playback of HDMI.....nothing new on the Video side of things.

Basically, I was trying to get more of an understanding of "Deep Color" with the new BD Players when paired w/the 9G display. I've been reading over the recent posts by Robert & others, which has been helpful. If there's anything you can add it would be mucho appreciated.

so refresh my mind are elite expected mid june or early july? and who will sell them? will we be forced to buy from bestbuy at retail price? i live in california. how much spectulated would the street price be for the elite? the non elite are around the 3gs right?

so refresh my mind are elite expected mid june or early july? and who will sell them? will we be forced to buy from bestbuy? i live in california. how much spectulated would the street price be for the elite? the non elite are around the 3gs right?
End of July, Elite Dealers (use the store locater (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/FindStore) to find dealers near you), look at forum sponsor's sites to find-out where they are located.

-Coggs

Basically, I was trying to get more of an understanding of "Deep Color" with the new BD Players when paired w/the 9G display. I've been reading over the recent posts by Robert & others, which has been helpful. If there's anything you can add it would be mucho appreciated.Deep color doesn't exist. As far as 8bit to 12bit conversion, Pioneer has been doing this for years in their SD DVD players ;)

Deep color doesn't exist. As far as 8bit to 12bit conversion, Pioneer has been doing this for years in their SD DVD players ;)

OK, thanks.

Deep color doesn't exist. As far as 8bit to 12bit conversion, Pioneer has been doing this for years in their SD DVD players ;)

D-nice, for this comment we are going to require a little more explanation. I think you are an engineer, based on the sophistication of your arguments previously, but since you are not employed by Pioneer or any other PDP maker (by your own statements), you must have a great source within the company. Regardless, I take issue with the implication that Pioneer's SD-DVD players have used 8-bit to 12-bit conversion and SENDING that to any type of display. I feel that in an attempt to simplify things you are being accidentally disingenuous.

CONVERSION of 8-bit to 10-bit, 12-bit or 16-bit is trivial, by simply adding zeros to the bit-length of the original binary word.

For example, if you have a color space of Red that runs from an arbitrary level of 0 to +100, a one bit representation of that would be either 0 or 1, corresponding to on or off, with no way to represent 1/2 on. Adding a second bit would give four values available, representing full on (binary 11, decimal 100), full off (binary 00, decimal 0), 1/3 on (binary 01, decimal 33) and 2/3 on (binary 10, decimal 67). Assume for a moment that we were CONVERTING to 4-bit from 2-bit. A 4-bit color space representing those data would be full on (binary 1111, decimal 100), full off (binary 0000, decimal 0), 1/3 on (0100, decimal 33) and 2/3 on (1000, decimal 67). Notice that we have not changed the data AT ALL--simply changed the method of representation (from a 2-bit to a 4-bit word, by adding two bits to the least-significant part of the word).

So CONVERSION does not add any data.

However, many devices PROCESS in a higher bit-length than their original data, to help minimize mathematical errors from rounding. Hence, they CONVERT a lower bit-length to a higher one, do their processing (math) and then ROUND back to the lower bit-length. This is actually more accurate than simply doing the math at the lower bit-rate. For an analogy, think about a commercial bank calculating interest. Most bank calculations are to 5 or 6 decimal places, but the final total is ROUNDED to 2 decimals (aka cents, to us in the US).

Pioneer SD-DVD players may have been CONVERTING 8-bit to 12-bit for their internal processing for some time, but aside from making better processing precision, they have NOT been transmitting this data to the display.

HERE IS THE POINT OF THIS POST:

To obtain Deep Color space and TRANSMIT it the the display, the new Blu-Ray players UPSAMPLE the data. This IS NOT the same as adding null bits to the insignificant part of the binary word. It is mathematically possible to look at the digital representations of a curve and extrapolate better data. Think for a moment about a data plot with many individual points. You draw a curve through those points, which is NOT a series of straight lines. Between each point is a CURVE, so by examining points before and after the center point, you can estimate whether it is off by a little. This allows those "added bits" to be NON-ZERO, which adds data to the formula. In other words, it allows slightly different colors to be transmitted, which better approximate the original master data from which the Blu-Ray disc was DOWNSAMPLED.

D-nice, I agree completely that there is NO SOURCE that is properly encoded in 12-bit color. Without that, the promise of the Deep Color space will never be up to its full potential.

However, the UPSAMPLING technique will produce superior results compared with standard Blu-Ray disc (which I admit is great to begin with) and is potentially a "game-changer" for home cinema. Therefore, I stand by my original post.:)

With greatest respect and admiration,

KDD

So is there any difference in the brightness levels between the 8G and 9G sets? The 8G always looked a little dimmer to me then other plasmas. Not enough to really matter, but I wouldn't want it much less so.

So is there any difference in the brightness levels between the 8G and 9G sets? The 8G always looked a little dimmer to me then other plasmas. Not enough to really matter, but I wouldn't want it much less so.

The 9Gs are capable of higher peak brightness than the 8Gs, if that floats your boat, but if both sets are calibrated to reference brightness levels (40fl I believe) then there won't be any difference in brightness.

D-nice, for this comment we are going to require a little more explanation. I think you are an engineer, based on the sophistication of your arguments previously, but since you are not employed by Pioneer or any other PDP maker (by your own statements), you must have a great source within the company. Regardless, I take issue with the implication that Pioneer's SD-DVD players have used 8-bit to 12-bit conversion and SENDING that to any type of display. I feel that in an attempt to simplify things you are being accidentally disingenuous.

CONVERSION of 8-bit to 10-bit, 12-bit or 16-bit is trivial, by simply adding zeros to the bit-length of the original binary word.

For example, if you have a color space of Red that runs from an arbitrary level of 0 to +100, a one bit representation of that would be either 0 or 1, corresponding to on or off, with no way to represent 1/2 on. Adding a second bit would give four values available, representing full on (binary 11, decimal 100), full off (binary 00, decimal 0), 1/3 on (binary 01, decimal 33) and 2/3 on (binary 10, decimal 67). Assume for a moment that we were CONVERTING to 4-bit from 2-bit. A 4-bit color space representing those data would be full on (binary 1111, decimal 100), full off (binary 0000, decimal 0), 1/3 on (0100, decimal 33) and 2/3 on (1000, decimal 67). Notice that we have not changed the data AT ALL--simply changed the method of representation (from a 2-bit to a 4-bit word, by adding two bits to the least-significant part of the word).

So CONVERSION does not add any data.

However, many devices PROCESS in a higher bit-length than their original data, to help minimize mathematical errors from rounding. Hence, they CONVERT a lower bit-length to a higher one, do their processing (math) and then ROUND back to the lower bit-length. This is actually more accurate than simply doing the math at the lower bit-rate. For an analogy, think about a commercial bank calculating interest. Most bank calculations are to 5 or 6 decimal places, but the final total is ROUNDED to 2 decimals (aka cents, to us in the US).

Pioneer SD-DVD players may have been CONVERTING 8-bit to 12-bit for their internal processing for some time, but aside from making better processing precision, they have NOT been transmitting this data to the display.

HERE IS THE POINT OF THIS POST:

To obtain Deep Color space and TRANSMIT it the the display, the new Blu-Ray players UPSAMPLE the data. This IS NOT the same as adding null bits to the insignificant part of the binary word. It is mathematically possible to look at the digital representations of a curve and extrapolate better data. Think for a moment about a data plot with many individual points. You draw a curve through those points, which is NOT a series of straight lines. Between each point is a CURVE, so by examining points before and after the center point, you can estimate whether it is off by a little. This allows those "added bits" to be NON-ZERO, which adds data to the formula. In other words, it allows slightly different colors to be transmitted, which better approximate the original master data from which the Blu-Ray disc was DOWNSAMPLED.

D-nice, I agree completely that there is NO SOURCE that is properly encoded in 12-bit color. Without that, the promise of the Deep Color space will never be up to its full potential.

However, the UPSAMPLING technique will produce superior results compared with standard Blu-Ray disc (which I admit is great to begin with) and is potentially a "game-changer" for home cinema. Therefore, I stand by my original post.:)

With greatest respect and admiration,

KDDThere is nothing different with BD discs and SD DVDs. They both are encoded @ 8bit 4:2:0. The only differences is the color matrx they use.

Previous Pioneer SD DVD players have not been just adding zeros for padding and calling it "12 bit". They have been doing just when the new BDP-05 and 51 will do. If you want to see what I'm talking about, get a Pioneer 79avi and try it for yourself :)

Upsampling BDs isn't a "game changer". It's nothing more than a SD DVD player feature (Pioneer) that is now a "new feature" on the BD players....and it doesn't magically change an 8bit encoded disc into a Deep Color representation.

Robert,

How do the colors of the 5020 compare to the Samsung 650? The 550/650 has been getting decent reviews especially for their colors.

I've been busy working for my beloved AVS Forum and its VIP membership while also helping Pioneer and a few competitors, sorry my customers had to take a back seat during my hectic community service time.

I'm back to VE tomorrow and will be very gracious to my supporters.

-Robert

I have read the things you receive if you join VIP membership, but I did not see anything about a special page that only the VIP members can access, such as additional pictures from the Road Show. Is this true?

There is nothing different with BD discs and SD DVDs. They both are encoded @ 8bit 4:2:0. The only differences is the color matrx they use.

Previous Pioneer SD DVD players have not been just adding zeros for padding and calling it "12 bit". They have been doing just when the new BDP-05 and 51 will do. If you want to see what I'm talking about, get a Pioneer 79avi and try it for yourself :)

Though they may upsample for processing, they must then downsample to send over HDMI, unless they are HDMI 1.3 compliant AND able to send the greater bit-space. This results in discarding any intermediary information. Therefore the target display only sees a 8-bit representation, and they are NOT using Deep Color.

Upsampling BDs isn't a "game changer". It's nothing more than a SD DVD player feature (Pioneer) that is now a "new feature" on the BD players....and it doesn't magically change an 8bit encoded disc into a Deep Color representation.

Just upsampling for processing IS of marginal value, especially when most of the effort is wasted by downsampling before transmission. Most displays can't handle anything over 8-bit. No amount of upsampling can replace a TRUE 12-bit source (of which there are NONE in the consumer realm) but I must disagree that a good upsampling algorithm on a good source with proper display is worthless.

If you still disagree, I would like to cordially invite you to do A/B comparisons with me after my full set of equipment arrives this fall. You would be a welcome guest at my house, and after my equipment was configured to your specifications, we could test with "Deep Color" ON vs OFF. We could even submit our results to the forum members for their take on the matter. I solemnly promise to fully abase myself before the membership if there is no difference.:)

Yours very sincerely,

KDD

Does the 151 have two antenna inputs, A&B like previous models?

Though they may upsample for processing, they must then downsample to send over HDMI, unless they are HDMI 1.3 compliant AND able to send the greater bit-space.

HDMI 1.2 allows 4:2:0 10-bit YCC? It works by alternating each chroma channel per pulse and the device is supposed to add them back together? But only HDMI 1.3+ can do over 10 bits?

OK.....I placed an order for the 6020. :D:D:D

I'm planning on wall mounting it so here's my questions to the "in-the-know" guys...

Will the same mounts used for the 6010 work on the 6020?

Is the jack panel still located in the same place as the 6010?

Thanks

Though they may upsample for processing, they must then downsample to send over HDMI, unless they are HDMI 1.3 compliant AND able to send the greater bit-space. This results in discarding any intermediary information. Therefore the target display only sees a 8-bit representation, and they are NOT using Deep Color.



Just upsampling for processing IS of marginal value, especially when most of the effort is wasted by downsampling before transmission. Most displays can't handle anything over 8-bit. No amount of upsampling can replace a TRUE 12-bit source (of which there are NONE in the consumer realm) but I must disagree that a good upsampling algorithm on a good source with proper display is worthless.

If you still disagree, I would like to cordially invite you to do A/B comparisons with me after my full set of equipment arrives this fall. You would be a welcome guest at my house, and after my equipment was configured to your specifications, we could test with "Deep Color" ON vs OFF. We could even submit our results to the forum members for their take on the matter. I solemnly promise to fully abase myself before the membership if there is no difference.:)

Yours very sincerely,

KDDI still disagree...espcially on the upscale and downscale portion.... and Tennessee is a bit out of my normal travel range :) However, I think you are missing a key point here....

The new Pioneer BD players do not in any shape, fashion, or form attempt to create Deep Color. Upscaling, conversion, whatever....they don't do it.

Personally I will never use this feature as IMO it's as silly as using an upscaling DVD player with a Kuro. I prefer an unaltered picture that is true to source.

Who is offering pre-orders on the 5020? I need two sets and am trying to get the best price possible.

DNice and Robert,

Ok, so to CONFIRM:

To get the IMPROVED PICTURE QUALITY I need to match the DISPLAY and the BLU RAY DISC PLAYER but it is OK to have any AVR in the circuit. A Pioneer 51FD connected via HDMI to a Pioneer VSX94TXH which is connected via HDMI to a PRO151FD will give me the improved picture quality correct??

NOW for the jitter free CD playback, I would need either an SC-05 or an SC-07 but that has NO EFFECT on video, right? Also why does the PDF brochure for the SC-05 state 3 HDMI 1.3 inputs when the back picture clearly shows 4 HDMI 1.3 inputs? Which is correct?

And right now what is the general release time of these damnable new Pioneer Elite receivers??

Thanks again. I just want to make sure that the AVR itself will not effect the "tweaked" improved picture quality. I an wait to buy a Pioneer 51FD later but I may not be able to wait 2 more months for a SC 5 or 7 when my speakers are coming in mid June . . . I may just have to settle for the current Elite Receiver in the 94TXH . . .

And how important is this "jitter free" thing anyway??

Dennis

Jitter elimination is for audio CD only. The effect? The soundfield sounds more 3-D like.

Who is offering pre-orders on the 5020? I need two sets and am trying to get the best price possible.

There are at least 4 forum sponsor posting in this thread alone taking pre-orders. You should email or PM any or all of them for pricing.

Geordon

DNice and Robert,

Ok, so to CONFIRM:

To get the IMPROVED PICTURE QUALITY I need to match the DISPLAY and the BLU RAY DISC PLAYER but it is OK to have any AVR in the circuit. A Pioneer 51FD connected via HDMI to a Pioneer VSX94TXH which is connected via HDMI to a PRO151FD will give me the improved picture quality correct??

NOW for the jitter free CD playback, I would need either an SC-05 or an SC-07 but that has NO EFFECT on video, right? Also why does the PDF brochure for the SC-05 state 3 HDMI 1.3 inputs when the back picture clearly shows 4 HDMI 1.3 inputs? Which is correct?

And right now what is the general release time of these damnable new Pioneer Elite receivers??

Thanks again. I just want to make sure that the AVR itself will not effect the "tweaked" improved picture quality. I an wait to buy a Pioneer 51FD later but I may not be able to wait 2 more months for a SC 5 or 7 when my speakers are coming in mid June . . . I may just have to settle for the current Elite Receiver in the 94TXH . . .

And how important is this "jitter free" thing anyway??

DennisThe 94 AVR will be fine as long as you have it set to pass-through the video signal.

how much more can we expect street price of the PRO-111 elite vs the PDP-5020 ? granted on top of who can sell them at that street price? i live in california and yes i can find my autorized dealers via their website but those stores are going to sell it at msrp

how much more can we expect street price of the PRO-111 elite vs the PDP-5020 ? granted on top of who can sell them at that street price? i live in california and yes i can find my autorized dealers via their website but those stores are going to sell it at msrp

Have you PM'd Roman?

Speaker question:

I don't have a surround sound system (or AV receiver) yet, and although I'm considering buying a Pioneer AV receiver or the Yamaha Digital Sound Projector, that probably won't happen until December-ish or a bit after. That being said, are the speakers on the Elite models better than the non-Elite Kuros? I know they're placed at the sides of the TV, but are they capable of higher wattage and/or are they better quality speakers?

Many thanks.

Does the 151 have two antenna inputs, A&B like previous models?

Only one Analog (Tuner A) and DTV (Tuner C), there is no 2nd Analog Tuner (which was Tuner B in 8G, Tuner A was Analog/DTV) - though, who cares about analog tuners...




-Shawn

Speaker question:

I don't have a surround sound system (or AV receiver) yet, and although I'm considering buying a Pioneer AV receiver or the Yamaha Digital Sound Projector, that probably won't happen until December-ish or a bit after. That being said, are the speakers on the Elite models better than the non-Elite Kuros? I know they're placed at the sides of the TV, but are they capable of higher wattage and/or are they better quality speakers?

Many thanks.

Yes, the two opposing stereo speakers on the Elite models delivers better audio quality vs. the speaker bar on the bottom of the Pioneer branded panels

-Robert

D-Nice or Robert;
I am purchasing the PRO-110FD from last year (great price on it and it's a great tv). Will I get the same benefits with the new Elite Blu-Ray player as the 9G? (Meaning will the Kuro settings work with this model?) Please let me know. Thanks.

Slightly OT but I was looking for a complete sponsor list authorized to carry Kuro and have come up with the following: Cleveland Plasma, BuyBestPlasma, ****************, Invision and Plasma Concepts. Anyone I'm missing?
So, besides Invision, BuyBestPlasma and ****************, are the others taking preorders as well and have I missed anyone?

Sorry for the stupid question but what is "HDMI jitter reduction"? Is it needed?

Leave for a weekend and come back to 11 pages. Yikes!

Robert, I just wanted to say thanks for all the incredible information and pics. The next best thing to being there.

Thanks for the prompt response, Robert! Yeah, I kinda figured that the separate stereo speakers would have better sound quality.

Another question: a couple people on here were discussing the upscaling/deinterlacing abilities of the Kuros. I couldn't tell if they were referring specifically to the Elites or to the Kuros in general. Do the non-Elites have better upscaling/deinterlacing abilities than, say, the Oppo 983? I wouldn't be surprised either way.

BTW, am I the only person who isn't a huge fan of the "Elite" logo on the front of the panels? It's written in a 1980s style font, no?

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c165/cori738/PRO11120and20110.jpg

Robert,

The bottom still of the 'girl and guy' does have better colour ... but as far as my monitor shows ... it seems his face is so dark he loses detail. Is that my monitor, the photo or the Pioneer?

I am seeing the same thing and has me a bit worried. The details of his beard on the 9G are very difficult to make out....can't make out his jawline at all. His right cheek looks completely black crushed. Can't tell what is beard or cheek. Does he have a beard or goatee? ;)

Robert what do you think of this??

Insiders -- Can the Elite 9G models save more than one variation on any mode other than USER? This is a big drawback of the 8G Elites -- there is only one user-modified PURE setting available, which is shared across inputs.

When I filled out Pioneer's customer feedback form, I requested that there be more than one user memory based on a single mode, like PURE. I hope that someone was listening.

To obtain Deep Color space and TRANSMIT it the the display, the new Blu-Ray players UPSAMPLE the data. This IS NOT the same as adding null bits to the insignificant part of the binary word. It is mathematically possible to look at the digital representations of a curve and extrapolate better data. Think for a moment about a data plot with many individual points. You draw a curve through those points, which is NOT a series of straight lines. Between each point is a CURVE, so by examining points before and after the center point, you can estimate whether it is off by a little. This allows those "added bits" to be NON-ZERO, which adds data to the formula. In other words, it allows slightly different colors to be transmitted, which better approximate the original master data from which the Blu-Ray disc was DOWNSAMPLED.KDD

To pick a nit: In the DSP world, "upsampling" usually means increasing the sampling rate without adding information. This is customarily done by inserting zero-valued samples between existing samples and then filtering out the resulting images via a polyphase FIR lowpass filter. "Interpolation" is another term of art describing the same process.

BD encodes its data with 8-bits per channel. Increasing the bit depth to 12 bits cannot add information that is not already there in the 8-bit word. "Interpolation between samples" is always part of the D/A conversion process and is achieved via an anti-imaging or "reconstruction" filter. Assuming that the original encode was correctly dithered to linearize the quantizer, the noise floor of the resulting analog signal will correspond to the 8-bits of encoding depth.

Evidently, Pioneer is increasing the bit depth to 12 bits by making some educated guesses based on more than one frame. However, this is not equivalent to a signal that was originally quantized to 12 bits and is not a process of linear interpolation.

Robert what do you think of this??

Reio-ta thinks that because his camera isn't a 9G Kuro, and your display isn't a 9G that you can't tell for sure?

Reio-ta thinks that because his camera isn't a 9G Kuro, and your display isn't a 9G that you can't tell for sure?


i want to get like an official reading on this because its sopposed to inprove if you get less then its not a good choice to get a new step down model you know?

I am seeing the same thing and has me a bit worried. The details of his beard on the 9G are very difficult to make out....can't make out his jawline at all. His right cheek looks completely black crushed. Can't tell what is beard or cheek. Does he have a beard or goatee? ;)

Robert what do you think of this??

It's just the settings they used, nothing else. You'll notice the colours look
completely different and the 8G seems a bit washed out actually (almost as
if the brightness is set a bit too high). Seriously, completely different images.
No need to worry at all.

i want to get like an official reading on this because its sopposed to inprove if you get less then its not a good choice to get a new step down model you know?

It depends on how you get it calibrated. I heard the 8G was a little too cold (color temperature, above 6500k) with the low end IREs of blue? A cooler image lets you see more shadow detail, at the expense of color accuracy.

If gamma isn't 100% consistent at all IRE targets, you'll get more shadow details, but give up color accuracy and gray scale transitions.

There's more to a picture than "how much shadow can I see".

Here's a small list:

1)Grayscale tracking accuracy
2)Consistent gamma curve at all IREs
3)Color temperature doesn't deviate much at all IREs
4)Color luminance (Value), Color saturation, and Color Hue is consistent across all IREs
5) Ability to see shadows and highlights at the same time

The closer you can get to perfect in all five of those areas the better. If you get good in some, but not so good at others, you'll sometimes see better details in a few scenes, but the majority will be worse. What you want is a good overall picture in all areas, not just get good highlights, like with LCD but poor shadows. Or, pump shadows and then lose highlights. Etc... You must have balance. Any of the 9G Kuros, once properly calibrated, will give you an experience, like you've never seen before. But only if you get it properly calibrated. Otherwise, it's just luck if you get a decent picture. But that's how it is with any TV.

There are other things that affect the shadows too. How was the lighting? The 8G Kuro has ~5 times brighter black level, that means in a brighter lit ambient light, the 9G won't perform as well. But, the moment you turn down lights and remove reflections, the 9G is better. That's just what happens with more on/off contrast. Which is why LCDs perform better in ambient light than any plasma. Doesn't mean the LCD is better one bit.

Edit:

And like Nambit says, you have no idea if the 8G in the comparison picture was properly calibrated, or purposefully washed out and made too bright to make the 9G look better. If so, those other details could be exaggerated. Also, because the black level is more on the 8G, Robert's camera could be adjusting exposure, making the picture look differently and is overexposing the 8G and the 9G could be underexposed. The only way to get a perfect apple to apple comparison is to use manual exposure settings. Lots of things can be going on which makes them look a lot different than what it looked like in real life.

^^^^^^^^

well i was afraid i would hear someting like that, that being said i have to disgard the picture and see judgement of my eyes, which makes it even harder because if i wait and loose out on the 8g then i'll have no choice getting a 9g ... if i get the 8g its going to be vice versa man that sucks :(

^^^^^^^^

well i was afraid i would hear someting like that, that being said i have to disgard the picture and see judgement of my eyes, which makes it even harder because if i wait and loose out on the 8g then i'll have no choice getting a 9g ... if i get the 8g its going to be vice versa man that sucks :(

As long as you can deal with in your heart and wallet the fact no matter what, the 1080p 50" 9G is going to be more than the 8G, get the 9G. You'll be very happy and after you wait ~200 hours get it calibrated. In the end you're going to be wondering why you were worrying. I've always like the Pioneer plasmas better than all the others, and every year the same resolution and sized next year's model gets better and cheaper. No matter which one you get, get it calibrated. Or at the very least get the Blu-ray DVE disc and do it yourself with the color filters.

To me plasma sucks, except for Pioneer's. If Pioneer weren't making plasmas, I'd not even like them one bit.

The very best picture quality that I have seen by a country mile came from the $75,000 Runco VX-22D DLP projector with Cinewide on a large Stewart Screen. The Blu-ray player was a Samsung. The pq absolutely blew me away ... colors and sharpness were so outstanding that it really did produce a 3D like image. That combined with a state of the art 7 channel sound system, lead me to conclude that if I ever had that system in my home I would probably never would go to a commercial theatre again.

If the Pro-151FD (or Pro-141FD)/BDP-05FD combination can immitate that pq in even the smallest way I will be thrilled ... I will have found the best possible system for my financial situation and physical space available.

BTW, am I the only person who isn't a huge fan of the "Elite" logo on the front of the panels? It's written in a 1980s style font, no?

+1

But the stick-on plastic logo on the 7G and older looks horrible. The logo inside the bezel on the 8G looks awesome, although, Im with you on that the font is pretty bitty.

There are at least 4 forum sponsor posting in this thread alone taking pre-orders. You should email or PM any or all of them for pricing.

Geordon

I got through 21 pages of this thread and found two users who I "think" are offering pre-orders... way past my bedtime now, if somebody wants to PM a quote I'm looking for one, maybe two, PDP-5020FDs.

Thanks,
Tyson

where are the posts from 9g owners in sweeden....:D

Ken, personally and professionally I have the highest of respect for D-Nice and you sir. However, had I not seen this demonstrated with my own eyes I would never believed it, but you will be blown-away and I give you my personal guaranty of your 100% satisfaction. These guys hit a grand slam home run out of the park.

-Robert

Robert, many thanks for all your input.

What specifics does a receiver have to have to not loose the 12-bit color coding (when you connect it in-between player and 9G)?

Does it have to be a Pioneer? with specific specs?

Thanks again!

It probably needs to have HDMI 1.3

Robert,

Thanks for the pictures and taking the time to post them ...

The bottom still of the 'paragraph' comes across much crisper

The bottom still of the 'girl and guy' does have better colour ... but as far as my monitor shows ... it seems his face is so dark he looses detail. Is that my monitor, the photo or the Pioneer?

The problem is the camera's auto exposure meter system is trying to average the exposure and can't get it perfect so the result is a slightly overexposed image which makes the 9G look even darker than is actually is. However, the photo is a very good example of the increased black level the 9G has over the 8G Kuros.

Long time exposure is another reason for the loss of detail in both images. In person the image detail, color saturation and color accuracy on the 9G is clearly better than the 8G

If I was better prepared with a tri-pod and had the 8G and 9G frames frozen the photography results would have been more like the actual images appeared in person. Sorry I did not do a better job with the photography.

-Robert

Robert, many thanks for all your input.

What specifics does a receiver have to have to not loose the 12-bit color coding (when you connect it in-between player and 9G)?

Does it have to be a Pioneer? with specific specs?

Thanks again!

It probably needs to have HDMI 1.3

HDPeeT, correct again as usual. I just want to add you need a quality HDMI 1.3a Catagory 2 cable rated for at least 220 mHz bandwidth.

Also I like shielded HDMI cables for the best results. Shielding is not in any spec that I can find, nor is it specified on the HDMI cables so you just need to know how the HDMI cable is made. I actually cut open the outer wrap to see how the HDMI cable is constructed before I buy quality HDMI cables for my store to re-sell.

-Robert

Ken, personally and professionally I have the highest of respect for D-Nice and you sir. However, had I not seen this demonstrated with my own eyes I would never believed it, but you will be blown-away and I give you my personal guaranty of your 100% satisfaction. These guys hit a grand slam home run out of the park.

-Robert

No, I believe it Robert, but that's why I said put an 05 away for me. I suspect much of the same difference would be seen on an 8g too. One thing I noticed on the comparison pictures is there appears to be more shadow detail on the 110. If you look at his beard (at least on my monitor), I can't capture the detail the 110 is showing on the 111 picture. It almost looks like two different settings were used. Even the color temperature is quite different.

I'm assuming this is not what you saw with your eyes and is just a function of your camera. Another reason why it's very difficult to assess TVs using digital cameras. ;)

Dealer needs to take me along on these roadshows to take his pictures. :)

I guess I'll post nonsense so I can bump my post count into the thousands.

Deep Color is one of the biggest scams in HD history. It is a completely worthelsss feature as nothing uses it. BD doesn't have it in it's spec nor will ever include it. Please get off the Deep Color marketing bandwagon :)

BTW, 8G Kuro do support Deep Color. 8G owners, it's in your manual ;)

From Page 72 of the Operating Instructions for the 8G 150/110.

Hi,

Need your help...

Should I go for the Elite 111FD or go bigger with the 6020?

Money is a consideration because I start looking at the Samsung tread and that’s bring me to the Panasonic and the panny lead me to this treads… Ouff... :confused:

Enough stretch in the budget, I need to decide...

Better or Bigger? (seating distance = 9 feet from the TV)

Thanks, :)

Eric

Hi,

Need your help...

Should I go for the Elite 111FD or go bigger with the 6020?

Money is a consideration because I start looking at the Samsung tread and that’s bring me to the Panasonic and the panny lead me to this treads… Ouff... :confused:

Enough stretch in the budget, I need to decide...

Better or Bigger? (seating distance = 9 feet from the TV)

Thanks, :)

Eric

Watch movies? Get the 60 inch as ultra-widescreen flicks uses a smaller
portion of the screen's real-estate (thanks to black borders on top & bottom).
I found a 50 inch is fine when the screen is full which is fine for normal TV
programming, but for movies, 50 inches just doesn't have that same feel. Make
no mistake, the difference between 50 and 60 inches is HUGE. Sitting 9 feet
away is fine on a 60 incher.

Anybody here ever order a from Alex at Invision or Cleveland Plasma? If so, could you PM me with info about your experience. I'm looking at preordering the 6020. Thanks.

Only one Analog (Tuner A) and DTV (Tuner C), there is no 2nd Analog Tuner (which was Tuner B in 8G, Tuner A was Analog/DTV) - though, who cares about analog tuners...




-Shawn

I ask because the spec sheet only says antenna. I presently use ant A for OTA and B for cable straight in. I do have a dvr through hdmi for cable also but use the straight in connection/tuner and elite speakers for my daughter. She's not quite ready to handle all of the A/V equipment. A simple power on of the TV works great for her and to a large extent the wife also.

So you say no second tuner/ant port? Only one? ....May have to find a good A/B switch.:(

Watch movies? Get the 60 inch as ultra-widescreen flicks uses a smaller
portion of the screen's real-estate (thanks to black borders on top & bottom).
I found a 50 inch is fine when the screen is full which is fine for normal TV
programming, but for movies, 50 inches just doesn't have that same feel. Make
no mistake, the difference between 50 and 60 inches is HUGE. Sitting 9 feet
away is fine on a 60 incher.

Thanks for your advice! :)

My viewing is about 90% movies. I will take that in consideration for sure...

Eric

Make
no mistake, the difference between 50 and 60 inches is HUGE. Sitting 9 feet
away is fine on a 60 incher.

Anybody think that the difference is huge?

Thanks,

Eric

There are other things that affect the shadows too. How was the lighting? The 8G Kuro has ~5 times brighter black level, that means in a brighter lit ambient light, the 9G won't perform as well. But, the moment you turn down lights and remove reflections, the 9G is better. That's just what happens with more on/off contrast. Which is why LCDs perform better in ambient light than any plasma. Doesn't mean the LCD is better one bit.



I don't think I agree with that. With all other things being equal, a better black level shouldn't translate in to worse performance in brighter light. LCDs may look better to some in bright light because they are much brighter and have a non-reflective surface.

I'm in San Jose and would be interested in an 8G 50" Kuro if anyone is upgrading :)

pm me :)


bob

Could someone please fill me in on which forum sponsors are authorized Pioneer dealers, and which not?

Thanks in advance.

The very best picture quality that I have seen by a country mile came from the $75,000 Runco VX-22D DLP projector with Cinewide on a large Stewart Screen. The Blu-ray player was a Samsung. The pq absolutely blew me away ... colors and sharpness were so outstanding that it really did produce a 3D like image. That combined with a state of the art 7 channel sound system, lead me to conclude that if I ever had that system in my home I would probably never would go to a commercial theatre again.

If the Pro-151FD (or Pro-141FD)/BDP-05FD combination can immitate that pq in even the smallest way I will be thrilled ... I will have found the best possible system for my financial situation and physical space available.

Bob, in all honesty, if you haven't been blown away by the 8g hooked up to a nice BR player, I don't tink the 9g will do it. I'm sure the 9g is an improvement over the 8g, but I'm also sure it isn't the kind of improvement that would bring someone from an opinion of 'nice' on the 8g to 'blown away' on the 9g.

From Page 72 of the Operating Instructions for the 8G 151/110.



Neato! So Kuro's DO Deep Color. They just don't flaunt it. ;)

Could someone please PM me the presale price for the 5020 from Invision, i've been trying to get through to them all morning with no luck. Thanks.

Could someone please fill me in on which forum sponsors are authorized Pioneer dealers, and which not?

Thanks in advance.


Here is the list of Authorized Online Stores:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/FindStore/Buy+Pioneer+Products+on+the+Internet

Thanks,
Bob Doseck
Plasma Concepts

Could someone please PM me the presale price for the 5020 from Invision, i've been trying to get through to them all morning with no luck. Thanks.



i would like one too.

I would like a price for a 6020.......

thx

i would like one too.

Please PM this to me as well. Thanks.

You have to be patient for a return PM. Don't forget that Invision is in Seattle, WA and right now it is only 8 am there. They will get to you.

Robert, other than not having the improved black level of the 9g, can the 8G 6010 take the same full advantage of the new, soon to be released Elite BD player's special Kuro PDP output mode?

(Rather than unending semantics & egoes)

We can't self-govern on this thread; so what about the Mods?

Many of us are sick of:
1) all the PM requests on price (despite continued urging not to do so)
2) continuous inappropriate price talk (against rules)
3) continuous snide comments and semantic debates (egos of some newbies but also experts should quit taking the bait - but their ego also gets in the way)
4) continuous requests for info that ANY basic search would quickly uncover

Yeah, I know, this is also a waste of time and space!

are the 9gs going to be brighter than the 8gs?

I will be purchasing the PRO-110FD. Will the new Elite BD player give me the same benefits on this panel as it will on the new 9G? (Are the new players designed to work specfically with the 9G's or will the PRO-110FD get the same benefits??) Please help me out because if it will... then I am definitely getting one!!

From reading previous posts I believe both the elite and non-elite accept PAL signals - does anyone know if the power supplies are also 240v switchable so they can be used in Europe?

The specs for the 8G say it has a 110v supply but a couple of posts in this thread have mentioned that a few people from Europe imported the 8G from the USA. Can anyone confirm as my folks are currently living in Atlanta but will be returning to the UK in a few years and they will obviously want to bring the screen back with them.

Here is the list of Authorized Online Stores:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/FindStore/Buy+Pioneer+Products+on+the+Internet

Thanks,
Bob Doseck
Plasma Concepts

Very helpful, thanks!

SC-09 is available now
SC-05 and 07 not till Aug/Sept

And right now what is the general release time of these damnable new Pioneer Elite receivers??

Bob, in all honesty, if you haven't been blown away by the 8g hooked up to a nice BR player, I don't tink the 9g will do it. I'm sure the 9g is an improvement over the 8g, but I'm also sure it isn't the kind of improvement that would bring someone from an opinion of 'nice' on the 8g to 'blown away' on the 9g.

Unfortunately I am still looking for a dealer that displays an 8g with a BR player ... or any HD signal for that matter!!! The main Elite dealer in this city has yet to even set up an 8g for demo!!! The Pioneer panels they have on display are only showing standard DVD. Personally I don't know why Pioneer still has them as a dearship. When it comes time to buy I will try to find a better dealer who actually displays the products properly!

I have seen the 6020 with a HD broadcast loop at Future Shop ... but they had have never set it up properly ... the picture was overdriven.

Has Pioneer said yet what the power consumption will be for the 151FD or 141FD.

(Rather than unending semantics & egoes)

We can't self-govern on this thread; so what about the Mods?

Many of us are sick of:
1) all the PM requests on price (despite continued urging not to do so)
2) continuous inappropriate price talk (against rules)
3) continuous snide comments and semantic debates (egos of some newbies but also experts should quit taking the bait - but their ego also gets in the way)
4) continuous requests for info that ANY basic search would quickly uncover

Yeah, I know, this is also a waste of time and space!

AGREE.

Elite vs Non-Elite
50" vs 60"
768p vs 1080p

Do we really need a rehash of the pros and cons of these discussions in a thread dedicated to new information about the 9Gs?

Or turning the thread into a personal advice column for a few individuals who are simply incapable of making up their minds even when receiving good advice from people a lot more patient than myself.

Lets get the new information out and leave the debates of the merits of those features to another time.

MODS please.

AGREE.

Elite vs Non-Elite
50" vs 60"
768p vs 1080p

Do we really need a rehash of the pros and cons of these discussions in a thread dedicated to new information about the 9Gs?

Or turning the thread into a personal advice column for a few individuals who are simply incapable of making up their minds even when receiving good advice from people a lot more patient than myself.

Lets get the new information out and leave the debates of the merits of those features to another time.

MODS please.

I see both sides of the argument. But is it really better to over-moderate than tolerate some new comers asking new questions and repeat a few bits of information even regulars may have missed? Heavy handed moderation and discouraging people from asking questions doesn't foster a very friendly or inviting feel to the forums. I've learned a lot from the information (especially stuff that I'm sure has been covered many times before in the months and years past, as I only joined a few weeks ago).

Personally, I'd rather have more information than less available, and people can take away what's useful to them, it's a pretty steep learning curve with the evolving HDTV technologies. And like offensive content on TV, if you don't like this thread so much there's always the power button / ALT+F4 to improve your viewing experience. :rolleyes:

Thanks to all the experts and regulars for your patience and time wading through the posts and imparting your knowledge to people like me. I think it's what makes these forums a great place to visit and be a part of.

Robert or D-Nice:

Is the scaling better on the Elite v. the Non-Elite and if so how noticeable is it?

Same question with the Elite v. the Signature?

Just curious, how good is the scaling on SD broadcasts? Not that it matters much to me as 95%+ of what I watch of broadcast TV is HD.

By the way, glad I live within 40 miles of Scarsdale. Robert - you will be hearing from me towards the end of the year!

robert. or anyone, when Pioneer puts on such a big event like this roadshow do they have all of the displays isf calibrated? or at least show the setting used on each set being viewed? it would seem they need to do that to asure an even baseline for everyone to view.

......Is the scaling better on the Elite v. the Non-Elite and if so how noticeable is it? Same question with the Elite v. the Signature? Just curious, how good is the scaling on SD broadcasts? Not that it matters much to me as 95%+ of what I watch of broadcast TV is HD.......

should be the same. the 8G used the same processor and glass (except for filter). you just get the extra settings and slightly different filter with the elites. robert did mention the sig series may have even more added calibration settings available though.

sd overall is pretty good still matters how good a source that sd programming is. i've seen sd on some directv channnels that looked pretty darn good and others that looked like crap. same on some ota channels still varies with the source.

From reading previous posts I believe both the elite and non-elite accept PAL signals - does anyone know if the power supplies are also 240v switchable so they can be used in Europe?

The specs for the 8G say it has a 110v supply but a couple of posts in this thread have mentioned that a few people from Europe imported the 8G from the USA. Can anyone confirm as my folks are currently living in Atlanta but will be returning to the UK in a few years and they will obviously want to bring the screen back with them.

I can confirm this. Many 8gs USA versions are in Europe now.