Neato! So Kuro's DO Deep Color. They just don't flaunt it. ;)

I don't know if this means anything, but my Sony SR12 HD cam has Sony's version of Deep Color and it looks essentially the same as when the cam is set to 'off' for XV Color. Not sure if this is a compatibilty issue (XV vs "deep") or if it's just indicative of the review I read that was unimpressed with deep color.

Neato! So Kuro's DO Deep Color. They just don't flaunt it. ;)

I think the keyword is 'support' deep color. There is still the matter of the source material.

-scott

Robert or D-Nice:

Is the scaling better on the Elite v. the Non-Elite and if so how noticeable is it?

Same question with the Elite v. the Signature?

Just curious, how good is the scaling on SD broadcasts? Not that it matters much to me as 95%+ of what I watch of broadcast TV is HD.

By the way, glad I live within 40 miles of Scarsdale. Robert - you will be hearing from me towards the end of the year!

Mike, I don't believe there is any difference in scaling between Elites & non-Elites.

I think the keyword is 'support' deep color. There is still the matter of the source material.

Yes well, we've already heard of the Pio BD player and its 'upconverting' functions. I'm guessing it won't be the last player coming forward to do this kind of thing, and many newly released TV's are boasting 'deep color' functionality as well. Granted the entire universe today of TV, BD and DVD releases are 8-bit/24-bit, but it's just a comforting thing to know that the TV is capable or has that additional functionality should it become available or needed to consumers in the future. Plus PS3 has that kind of functionality already available, as do PC games, and deep color is one of the whole reasons to have HDMI 1.3 certification on your cables/HDMI ports. I'd rather have spectrum and color beyond what's available today, available for future evolutions of HD. It's another feather in Pioneers already brimming cap, and I can't see why it isn't mentioned more clearly on the cut sheet pdf's or press releases. :confused:

The problem is the camera's auto exposure meter system is trying to average the exposure and can't get it perfect so the result is a slightly overexposed image which makes the 9G look even darker than is actually is. However, the photo is a very good example of the increased black level the 9G has over the 8G Kuros.

Long time exposure is another reason for the loss of detail in both images. In person the image detail, color saturation and color accuracy on the 9G is clearly better than the 8G

If I was better prepared with a tri-pod and had the 8G and 9G frames frozen the photography results would have been more like the actual images appeared in person. Sorry I did not do a better job with the photography.

-Robert
As a semi advanced amateur photographer, it behooves me to say that I think that what you meant to say was that the photo is underexposed. You are correct in that the camera is averaging the brightness between the two sets. So the brighter picture (less black 8G) causes the exposure time to shorten, making the darker picture (9G) appear underexposed and blacker than your eye would see it.

are the 9gs going to be brighter than the 8gs?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13895777&highlight=floats#post13895777

Thanks for the overwhelming interest in the 5020's and the 6020's. Please know we will respond to your PM's in the order received, as soon as possible. Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Deb

As a semi advanced amateur photographer, it behooves me to say that I think that what you meant to say was that the photo is underexposed. You are correct in that the camera is averaging the brightness between the two sets. So the brighter picture (less black 8G) causes the exposure time to shorten, making the darker picture (9G) appear underexposed and blacker than your eye would see it.

If you look at the picture comparison Robert is talking about, the picture for the 110 is a bit blown out (over exposed). I was surprised to see the details in the womans shirt to be so much more apparent in the 9G until I read this post. I didn't think the 110 would lack that much compared to the 111.

Overall however, there is a significant difference between the 110 and 111 assuming the white balance in both pictures is accurate.

If you look at the picture comparison Robert is talking about, the picture for the 110 is a bit blown out (over exposed). I was surprised to see the details in the womans shirt to be so much more apparent in the 9G until I read this post. I didn't think the 110 would lack that much compared to the 111.

Overall however, there is a significant difference between the 110 and 111 assuming the white balance in both pictures is accurate.

but you just cannot go by that one pic. there are way too many variables to consider, hand held shots, could just be as simple as when it was paused, ect ect ect.

but you just cannot go by that one pic. there are way too many variables to consider, hand held shots, could just be as simple as when it was paused, ect ect ect.

Exactly! I can not believe all this clamor about the pics. Robert posted the pics just to show or demonstrate an observation regarding the better black levels of the 9G. It's totally a useless endeavor to try and nitpic :D these shots or use them for the best of PQ reference. One member previously posted that unless Robert uses a "9G camera and you're viewing it on a 9G display". ISF Tech "Mr Bob" on another forum thread has previously noted that it sometimes takes him hours to get one of his screen shots right, and even then it is even much better in person, besides that fact that we are viewing the shot on our computer LCD screens!

it is even much better in person, besides that fact that we are viewing the shot on our computer LCD screens!

hahah thats what always gets me is people who read Kuro pics on their $100 LCD monitor and -- 'WOW GREAT BLACKS!!' LOL :rolleyes:

The filter is bonded to the outside of the single layer of glass on the Pioneer, correct? If so, how concerned should I be about potential damage from small kids that like to touch the screen occasionally? I've been training the kids to not touch the screen of the current TV but it hasn't been 100% successful and likely won't be for some time.

I've been leaning towards the Panny 800/850 with its TufGlas because of this concern but I'd really like to add the Pio 5020 to the list.

correct, that would be a major concern with the filter on the Pioneer glass. a little lite touching shouldn't be much problem but with kids the way the tend to lean on a tv and of course anything messy/food/oily on their hands and it's not good news at all.

Could analyze/rationalize/compare/contrast/wait no longer!

5020 on order! :D:D

Thanks Alex!

correct, that would be a major concern with the filter on the Pioneer glass. a little lite touching shouldn't be much problem but with kids the way the tend to lean on a tv and of course anything messy/food/oily on their hands and it's not good news at all.


Well, that about does it for my lurking in this thread. :mad: Thanks for confirming my suspicion.

I have a 3 year old and a 3 month old. I am getting a pro-151. My solution will be to wall mount it above tv stand that will hold my receiver and center channel. I am putting a child gate around the tv stand and my a/v rack. At night, I can take it down, during the day, the tv will be higher than the gate so they can see it but not touch it. My two cents after having my old toshiba rptv scratched and beat up.

I have a 3 year old and a 3 month old. I am getting a pro-151. My solution will be to wall mount it above tv stand that will hold my receiver and center channel. I am putting a child gate around the tv stand and my a/v rack. At night, I can take it down, during the day, the tv will be higher than the gate so they can see it but not touch it. My two cents after having my old toshiba rptv scratched and beat up.

Just don't let them throw things in the house and you should be fine.

Yes we learned that one early. My wife has a large curio cabinet that almost took a baseball. I made the catch of my life that night. You wouldn't think a 2 year old could throw that hard but he did. After that incident, no more playing with throwing toys inside the house.

+1

But the stick-on plastic logo on the 7G and older looks horrible. The logo inside the bezel on the 8G looks awesome, although, Im with you on that the font is pretty bitty.

+2

The Elite logo is pretty terrible. Even the Pioneer logo is a relic that needs to be reworked, although it's not as bad as the Elite one. Subdued logos on any of these products would be appreciated, nothing to distract from the picture.

Nothing compares to the typeface horror of McIntosh's logo though.

(Rather than unending semantics & egoes)

We can't self-govern on this thread; so what about the Mods?

Many of us are sick of:
1) all the PM requests on price (despite continued urging not to do so)
2) continuous inappropriate price talk (against rules)
3) continuous snide comments and semantic debates (egos of some newbies but also experts should quit taking the bait - but their ego also gets in the way)
4) continuous requests for info that ANY basic search would quickly uncover

Yeah, I know, this is also a waste of time and space!

I agree on these points, but I really think by far the most annoying thing is posting on here asking for PMs. If you want a PM reply from someone, PM them asking for the information and they'll reply. Don't post to a thread just to ask for a PM! Mods, where are you?

Edit: Whoah! D-Nice just pointed out it *IS* on the outside!

As an owner of a Pro-150FD, I gotta ask where you guys get this stuff from?
Ever visited the streaks thread? Some belief it's due to the 'filter' not being
applied properly on the INSIDE of the glass. Others suggest the inside of the
glass was not cleaned properly.

Folks actually believe Pioneer would leave the filter on the outside? In the
Pro-150FD owner's manual, for example, it just warns against using hard cloths
(as opposed to soft) as it may scratch the surface. Further wet/damp cloths
are not suggested (at least while the TV is on) as the water droplets may end
up inside the TV (presumably through the sides/bezel).The color filter and AR coating are on the outside of the panel. They are NOT covered by an additional pane of glass.

The color filter and AR coating are on the outside of the panel. They are NOT covered by an additional pane of glass.
Well, there goes that explanation. :o
No big deal, but when I checked the manual, it didn't give any warning of such a thing.
Wow, so they really put it on the outside, totally unprotected? That's a shock.

Well, there goes that explanation. :o
No big deal, but when I checked the manual, it didn't give any warning of such a thing.
Wow, so they really put it on the outside, totally unprotected? That's a shock.The color filter isn't as fragile as one may think :)

The color filter isn't as fragile as one may think :)
Oh, okay. Can you clear some stuff up for the guys how are a bit concerned,
especially those with children. I remember you mentioned a moist cloth (ie:
only with water) is ok to clean it with if something is spilled on the screen and
*NOT* to use any of the screen cleaners (like the one from Monster or whatever).

While I am at it, I gotta ask if you can confirm if the parts are mainly from
Japan (or at least outside of the U.S.) since I may consider importing a TV
from the US. I'm assuming I'll be hit with duty charges here in Canada since
the TV might not be covered by NAFTA. I already know the warranty risk but
the prices are just too good over there to dismiss. Thanks!

The color filter isn't as fragile as one may think :)


I agree. I can't recall anyone having issues with the durability of the filter.

Mike

While I am at it, I gotta ask if you can confirm if the parts are mainly from
Japan (or at least outside of the U.S.) since I may consider importing a TV
from the US. I'm assuming I'll be hit with duty charges here in Canada since
the TV might not be covered by NAFTA. I already know the warranty risk but
the prices are just too good over there to dismiss. Thanks!

Assembled in the USA with Japan and USA parts. So you will have to pay 5% I think it is

Assembled in the USA with Japan and USA parts. So you will have to pay 5% I think it is
Thanks for the info. I presume they base the duty on whatever they value the
TV would be, and not what I bought it for. I've never imported anything before
so I guess I have some learning to do.

State sales tax if you buy it within the same state you're picking it up. 5% for duty and you're own sales tax which would be 13% for Ontario. I would have to get a fantastic deal over the border for me to do it.

For me it's 8.5% Washington sales tax, 5% duty, and then 12% PST and GST. That's way too much tax to pay.

do you think 4999 for the 60 inch kuro would be a good price??

Thanks for the info. I presume they base the duty on whatever they value the
TV would be, and not what I bought it for. I've never imported anything before
so I guess I have some learning to do.

It would be a % off your invoice price that you paid

Ummmmm....when I called the border guys they said if it's assembled in North America no duty, just PST/GST......

And they said if assembled in Asia, 5% of your total invoice. (tax included)

But then you lose your warranty unless you want to drive it over the border for servicing and then drive back to pick it up again.

As far as duty into Canada goes, one might want to check carefully with CBSC. Assembled in the USA (regardless of the origin of the parts) can sometimes be acceptable as "Made in USA", which equates to Duty Free. There is no duty on North American goods under NAFTA. Again, it merits some investigation into made vs assembled in USA. Personally, I import vast amounts of goods, and never pay duty. A lot of my imports are a mix of made in and assembled in USA.

-tulsah

do you think 4999 for the 60 inch kuro would be a good price??in the us for a 6020, no. msrp is $5500 and with any bb 10% coupon it will be less then that. pm an avs forum sponsor like Roman at buybestplasma and see what a good deal you can get.

The color filter isn't as fragile as one may think :)

This is actually a big deal to me as I have a 3 year old boy who has 500% more energy than my 7 year old did at 3. The original poster on this topic noted the Panasonic as having "TufGlas" but Panasonic's website for the 800U notes "Screen Coating (Filter): New AR (Anti-Reflective) Filter".

Do they both have a coating?

Hi eric i think even though size is a good factor you might want to consider PQ over size mean mean that is the point of getting a pioneer or a panasonic or such, especially if you plan on calibrating your future to be elite it will unleash its full potential


Hi,

Need your help...

Should I go for the Elite 111FD or go bigger with the 6020?

Money is a consideration because I start looking at the Samsung tread and that’s bring me to the Panasonic and the panny lead me to this treads… Ouff... :confused:

Enough stretch in the budget, I need to decide...

Better or Bigger? (seating distance = 9 feet from the TV)

Thanks, :)

Eric


RolandOG hold on their D-nice just said that the filters outside the panel arent that fragil, i think that should be enough since its coming from D-nice but if you still want to make sure you should contact pioneer and ask them.

Remeber you bought a tv to enjoy not to have just style frame lol



Well, that about does it for my lurking in this thread. :mad: Thanks for confirming my suspicion.

The color filter isn't as fragile as one may think :)

Question for D-nice is it true that you cannot use screen cleaners like monster?

Question for D-nice is it true that you cannot use screen cleaners like monster?

Yes this is true. Sorry D-Nice ;)

Yes this is true. Sorry D-Nice ;)

why is it though i really want to know since they made it to clean the tv in the first place..... :eek:


and what form of cleaning should we performe then?

The 9Gs are capable of higher peak brightness than the 8Gs, if that floats your boat, but if both sets are calibrated to reference brightness levels (40fl I believe) then there won't be any difference in brightness.


But does the 9G have a higher APL, I'm not sure
peak brightness is the same as APL (average peak luminance,I think)

In other words are the grayish whites on a mostly white scene that I observe on an 8G going to be LESS grayish
on a 9G ?

I should mention that after do-it-yourself calibrations on a few TV's using Video Essentials DVD I usually end up bumping brightness up SLIGHTLY for more evident shadow detail and contrast up SLIGHTLY for more POP.

Thanks in advance,
Scotty

The coating that Pioneer has. Use the cloth provided in the box. There have been not pretty reports when people used Monster on thier Pios.

I use it to clean my mirrors:)

Its similar to a wax and it is abrasive, although it does keep the pollen and dust off somehow.

Paul

I agree on these points, but I really think by far the most annoying thing is posting on here asking for PMs. Mods, where are you?

"The most annoying thing" are the foreigners (especially the Canadians) ... like we care about their warranty issues and lack of authorized dealers, and increased prices. EH!, I got better things to read

(my post is meant totally as a joke, and to eat up limited forum space :D)

But does the 9G have a higher APL, I'm not sure
peak brightness is the same as APL (average peak luminance,I think) APL is one of the following:

Average Picture Level
Average Pixel Level

Both mean the same thing; are quoted in %; and refer to the average of the signal histogram (check that someone?) or the post gamma histogram. In other words the average level of all pixels per frame. Most video and film have an APL of ~20%. Animations run higher and many movies will run lower than this.

"Lastly, any known improvement of upconversion features of the 9G versus 8G (it is indeed stated in the 151 brochure that ASIC Video processing has been Improved, without any more details...)?

Many thanks,

Pepin"


You will have to wait and see :)


That's intersting. Since I'll be getting one of the newer Pioneer Blu-ray players, it makes me wonder what will be better at upconversion. I guess we'll have to wait on that one too?

I may have this wrong though, I'm not sure if "ASIC Video processing" has to do with upconversion or not...

Does the coating (AR, etc.) reduce reflectiveness at all? One of the other posters on this forum posted a picture of their 8G set and it was almost like a mirror.

"Originally Posted by i_like_tuesday
Technical question that hasn't already been answered: Anyone know whether the g9's will be able to display PAL video?"


Yes


Will PAL work in a regular Pioneer Blu-ray player to be sent out to the Kuro display? Or does the player send the PAL video to the display for decoding?

Another words, how does PAL video end up being shown on a Kuro display?

Pure Cinema ADV (3:3 pulldown/frame replication) is NOT only for 1080p/24. It works with film based 480i/480p/720p/1080i.

Is "Pure" mode the same as "Pure" Cinema mode?

Or is there a "Pure" AND a "Pure Cinema" mode?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoddee
But does the 9G have a higher APL, I'm not sure
peak brightness is the same as APL (average peak luminance,I think)

xrox said:
APL is one of the following:

Average Picture Level
Average Pixel Level

Scotty says:
I definitely messed up the APL reference ! But I would still like an answer to my original question:
In other words are the grayish whites on a mostly white scene that I observe on an 8G going to be LESS grayish
on a 9G ?

Scotty

Ok, here's my Dilemma:
I purchased a PRO-110FD about 8weeks ago.. I absolutely love it!
I have the option to "upgrade" any purchase within 90 days..... Are there any advantages to getting the PRO-111FD over what I already have?
It's silly I know, but I hate having "I wish I had" regrets.
Is the new 9g Kuro really better then the 8g Kuro (I know it's supposed to be 5x blacker than the previous generation - and I have read everything I could) anything else I'm missing? I value the expert opinions here, in fact, I would not have gotten my present system without your willingness to share your knowledge. I hope the ones who have the insight into the new 9gs can help...
Thanks.
As an FYI which may or may not help.. I'll be getting the SC-07 when it's available in August. I do use the network capability of the PRO-110FD.

I'm 99% sure I'm getting eith the 5020 or 6020. I have a 50" 720p LCD rear projection right now. So, I think just the move to plasma and 1080p would already be a big improvement. I'm also thinking going to 60" would be that much more. Only problem is I live in a pretty small house. I sit about 8' away from my HDTV now. Plus, I would have to move my side speakers a couple inches further away due to the width of the 60".

As the person who originally asked about the filter and glass, I want to point out that I didn't mean to imply that it's fragile. I just seem to remember reading some posts a few months ago about people having problems after cleaning the screen. Perhaps they were using the Monster product, but I don't recall. With small boys I'm likely going to need to clean the screen more frequently than others so it may be an issue for me.

Anyway, I've still got 4-5 months before I'm going to purchase so I'll just keep reading. Thanks for the replies.

Did pioneer take away the Pro Adjust menu from 5020/6020 :eek:? This is from the pdf's:

"Picture Detail Settings* – DRE Picture, Black Level, ACL, Enhancer Mode, Gamma and CTI
*No menu items for these functions"

"Noise Reduction Settings* – 3 DNR, Field NR, Block NR, Mosquito NR
*No menu items for these functions"

Does that mean that I cannot even adjust DRE and Gamma now on 5020/6020? This would be a deal breaker for me. 5010/6010 have these adjustments.

This is discussed in some other thread. Can someone clarify? Thanks!

Can anyone else confirm this? That the 5020/6020 has fewer menu settings for adjustments than the 5010/6010?

Yes I believe this is true I work at an MHT and about a month ago our Pioneer rep told us this. This is because they added an ethernet port to the non-elites, which has been something only the elites had in past years, so because they added this the had to subtract some features from the non-elites so they took out more menu settings.

I just got a reply from Frédéric Bourgeois, the senior rep from Pioneer Canada, to my question regarding the MSRP disappearing from the Canadian press release.

The reason why the MSRP has disappeared from the Canadian press release is because the Canadian roadshow is happening on June 1st (I thought it was May 28th...) and that Pioneer Canada wanted to avoid ruffling resellers by announcing to the general public the MSRP before officially telling them.

So I take it that our MSRP will still be at par with our American friends' MSRP! :)

You can read F. Bourgeois reply (in french) at my question regarding the modified press release at http://www.quebecaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16158&view=findpost&p=200940 .

Cheers!

Pepin

P.S. I know that, for some reason, the non-Elite Kuro's pricing has never been removed from Pio Canada's press release but I don't think we should get worried at this point. Now, if only the release date could be June for the Elite series... *sigh*

which low profile mount from monoprice.com would you recomend for the 6020 kuro? thanks. i am not sure that i can use three studs. i know i can use two studs though.

So I take it that our MSRP will still be at par with our American friends' MSRP! :)



I think you just put a smile on every Canadian AVSer's face:D.

how would people adjust the settings if they are removed? do they need to go to service menu? if by going to service menu and say adjust these option via calibration would this void warranty? i heard about it can someone deny or confirm this?


Did pioneer take away the Pro Adjust menu from 5020/6020 :eek:? This is from the pdf's:

"Picture Detail Settings* – DRE Picture, Black Level, ACL, Enhancer Mode, Gamma and CTI
*No menu items for these functions"

"Noise Reduction Settings* – 3 DNR, Field NR, Block NR, Mosquito NR
*No menu items for these functions"

Does that mean that I cannot even adjust DRE and Gamma now on 5020/6020? This would be a deal breaker for me. 5010/6010 have these adjustments.

This is discussed in some other thread. Can someone clarify? Thanks!



chp im on othe same page with the exception that i have yet to purchase the pioneer, i was intending between the PRO-1150 and the new 9g 5020
so far i belive it is worth buying a 9g

Ok, here's my Dilemma:
I purchased a PRO-110FD about 8weeks ago.. I absolutely love it!
I have the option to "upgrade" any purchase within 90 days..... Are there any advantages to getting the PRO-111FD over what I already have?
It's silly I know, but I hate having "I wish I had" regrets.
Is the new 9g Kuro really better then the 8g Kuro (I know it's supposed to be 5x blacker than the previous generation - and I have read everything I could) anything else I'm missing? I value the expert opinions here, in fact, I would not have gotten my present system without your willingness to share your knowledge. I hope the ones who have the insight into the new 9gs can help...
Thanks.
As an FYI which may or may not help.. I'll be getting the SC-07 when it's available in August. I do use the network capability of the PRO-110FD.

I think you just put a smile on every Canadian AVSers face:D.

YES. Pepin, a personal thanks to you because it's your posts and contacts with Frederic en francais which have garnered all the official word on the Canadian MSRP. Both the initial at par announcement, and now these reassuring words again. This is indeed highly encouraging news. Thanks for sharing and initiating your inquiries with FB! If true -- *fingers crossed, knock on wood, rub a horseshoe, salt over the shoulder* -- it should be a much better year for Pioneer Canada (not to mention Canadian consumers) with at par pricing.

I think you just put a smile on every Canadian AVSer's face:D.

YES. Pepin, a personal thanks to you because it's your posts and contacts with Frederic en francais which have garnered all the official word on the Canadian MSRP. Both the initial at par announcement, and now these reassuring words again. This is indeed highly encouraging news. Thanks for sharing and initiating your inquiries with FB! If true -- *fingers crossed, knock on wood, rub a horseshoe, salt over the shoulder* -- it should be a much better year for Pioneer Canada (not to mention Canadian consumers) with at par pricing.

Well, guys, I have been waiting for sooo long for this to happen, I am very happy to share what I know with you. Like the other guy says: "Patience has its rewards" and I should add " especially when the Canadian MSRP is gonna get at par with US MSRP!". :D

which low profile mount from monoprice.com would you recomend for the 6020 kuro? thanks. i am not sure that i can use three studs. i know i can use two studs though.

Please call them or email them to verify as some generic mounts do not work with Pios 60 inchers

I agree. I can't recall anyone having issues with the durability of the filter.

Mike

Just how durable is the filter? Can it be vacuumed with an open-ended brush attachment (to avoid full suction on the surface) to remove dust?

Does the coating (AR, etc.) reduce reflectiveness at all? One of the other posters on this forum posted a picture of their 8G set and it was almost like a mirror.

The coating on the Pro-150FD works quite well in a brightly lit room, but this
is mainly if you're viewing dead on. Even on an LCD, I can give you some
off-angle shots where the matte finish reflects light just as bad (not quite
a mirror, though). {oh wait, I lost those shots when I cleaned out the
camera :o}

To me, daylight reflection on a glossy panel (plasma) is like viewing angle on
an LCD: as you move away from the centre {or 'center' for our U.S. friends},
the worse things get.

The coating on the Pro-150FD works quite well in a brightly lit room, but this
is mainly if you're viewing dead on. Even on an LCD, I can give you some
off-angle shots where the matte finish reflects light just as bad (not quite
a mirror, though). {oh wait, I lost those shots when I cleaned out the
camera :o}

To me, daylight reflection on a glossy panel (plasma) is like viewing angle on
an LCD: as you move away from the centre {or 'center' for our U.S. friends},
the worse things get.
- Thanks. I replied to this post earlier and was hoping to get another opinion. My setup isn't near a window, but I do have a fish tank behind my couch, which could reflect off the TV.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13861469#post13861469

I have a question about buying from an authorized dealer. I went to the Pioneer list and it does have Amazon as an authorized dealer. If you buy one from a third party through Amazon would this count as buying it from an authorized dealer and thus having the warranty, or does the actual party you buy it from need to be authorized?

Thanks.

I have a question about buying from an authorized dealer. I went to the Pioneer list and it does have Amazon as an authorized dealer. If you buy one from a third party through Amazon would this count as buying it from an authorized dealer and thus having the warranty, or does the actual party you buy it from need to be authorized?

Thanks.

3rd party doesn't count.

This is actually a big deal to me as I have a 3 year old boy who has 500% more energy than my 7 year old did at 3. The original poster on this topic noted the Panasonic as having "TufGlas" but Panasonic's website for the 800U notes "Screen Coating (Filter): New AR (Anti-Reflective) Filter".

Do they both have a coating?I said the filter isn't as fragile as on thinks. I did NOT say it was bulletproof :)

Kids + toys + throwing toys isn't a good combination for any plasma.

Question for D-nice is it true that you cannot use screen cleaners like monster?
True

why is it though i really want to know since they made it to clean the tv in the first place..... :eek:


and what form of cleaning should we performe then?
Monster as a company is a scam. You should only have to use a microfiber cloth to remove any fingerprints or other stain from the screen. If you have a stubborn stain you only need to use a few drops of distiled water.

D-Nice or Robert, can you comment on the "no menu items for these functions" on the non-Elites? How important is a lack of end-user settings for Picture Detail and Noise Reduction on the 9G?

"Originally Posted by i_like_tuesday
Technical question that hasn't already been answered: Anyone know whether the g9's will be able to display PAL video?"





Will PAL work in a regular Pioneer Blu-ray player to be sent out to the Kuro display? Or does the player send the PAL video to the display for decoding?

Another words, how does PAL video end up being shown on a Kuro display?If the player is capable of sending a PAL signal, the Kuro will display it.

Is "Pure" mode the same as "Pure" Cinema mode? No

Or is there a "Pure" AND a "Pure Cinema" mode?There is a Pure A/V picture mode. Pure Cinema deals with film de-interlacing/frame duplication.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13861469#post13861469

In that case, no amount of filtering will help. Don't expect the LCD to fair
any better either. I tried taking pictures of my LCD for an ad last year, and
I figured it would be great if I could face the LCD towards my window instead
of using a flash. Well, the LCD's matte finish didn't fair so well at all. I
recall having a PS3 dashboard image on the screen, but the light from the
window totally overshadowed everything on the screen. Honestly, in many
cases, direct light (sun or not) on a TV is not a good thing.

After reading the 2000+ posts on this thread, not to mention the countless other posts on the other pio threads, I couldn't take it any more and pulled the trigger for the 111. For the speakers. My friends and family will think me insane, but at least I can tell them that I performed my duty for my country by pre-spending my economic stimulus check for the good of the nation. Of course, I might become a danger to myself and others in the next couple months as I stare sadly at my 27" JVC CRT waiting on my Kuro.

My thanks to Roman for aiding and abetting my descent into madness.

In that case, no amount of filtering will help. Don't expect the LCD to fair
any better either. I tried taking pictures of my LCD for an ad last year, and
I figured it would be great if I could face the LCD towards my window instead
of using a flash. Well, the LCD's matte finish didn't fair so well at all. I
recall having a PS3 dashboard image on the screen, but the light from the
window totally overshadowed everything on the screen. Honestly, in many
cases, direct light (sun or not) on a TV is not a good thing.
- The JVC LCOS I have now has a really great matte screen. My only gripe is that it goes through bulbs and it has a 1000:1 contrast ratio. :(

I've been following this forum for some time as I plan on upgrading my 9 yr old system at the end of the year or there abouts. There has been some amount of space taken up on arguing, debating, questioning etc on what the end results will be based on the published specs. At best, I would be qualified as an interested party in the audio/video technologies as my experience contails strictly of watching and listening to my current system, my first "home theatre". The one thing I do believe is that specs are to be taken with a grain of salt and the implementation of those specs is the defining product. From what I've read, Robert is the only person to have "eyes on" experience with these new products and many have ignored his report in favor of questioning the specs and arguing over the quality of pictures displayed on an LCD.

In following this post and others, it is easily determined who has legitimate input from those that just want to speculate on these products due to frustration of not having them available at this time. I'm lucky. My timeline allows me the patience to wait for these models to become available and let these knowledgable folks put them thru the hoops. Pioneer is noted for producing good results on their specs, but the proof is in the pudding. My intent is to encourage those that want comparison reviews to wait until those reviews are possible. I have no doubt that Pioneer will win in any comparison, but it will be nice to have the facts of the end product to verify this.

D-Nice or Robert, can you comment on the "no menu items for these functions" on the non-Elites? How important is a lack of end-user settings for Picture Detail and Noise Reduction on the 9G?

+1

I have a quick question. New to plasma displays, we bought our first plasma last year, a Panny 37PX60U for our bedroom. I am getting the 151fd, I saw the 150fd and loved it.
With the Panny, I am noticing a liquid like movement in the blurred background. Picture is clean and nice in the foreground. I notice it with Directv, dvds and games. It is not very noticeable but it's there. Again, it's mostly when there is blurred background. Can anyone tell me whether this is something I will be experiencing with the 151? Is it normal to plasmas? Thanks

I have a 3 year old and a 3 month old. I am getting a pro-151. My solution will be to wall mount it above tv stand that will hold my receiver and center channel. I am putting a child gate around the tv stand and my a/v rack. At night, I can take it down, during the day, the tv will be higher than the gate so they can see it but not touch it. My two cents after having my old toshiba rptv scratched and beat up.

She is 10 now, but I remember coming around the corner to some racket which was my 2-year-old beating her bottle on the front of my Sony XBR 53 inch rear projection. Kids definitely have a way of making you care more about the important things in life. :D

She is 10 now, but I remember coming around the corner to some racket which was my 2-year-old beating her bottle on the front of my Sony XBR 53 inch rear projection. Kids definitely have a way of making you care more about the important things in life. :DI have already purchased a makrolon sheet that will act as a removable barrier for the new Plasma. Not even a supersonic Wii remote can penetrate it :)

... With the Panny, I am noticing a liquid like movement in the blurred background. Picture is clean and nice in the foreground. I notice it with Directv, dvds and games. It is not very noticeable but it's there. Again, it's mostly when there is blurred background. Can anyone tell me whether this is something I will be experiencing with the 151? Is it normal to plasmas? ThanksI'd recommend viewing the display driven with a top notch source such as a good pressing of a Blu-Ray disc. It's worthwhile to see how the display will handle poorer signals as you'd get with DirecTV or various qualities of SD content but you need the best HD signals to see the display at it's best.

Just how durable is the filter? Can it be vacuumed with an open-ended brush attachment (to avoid full suction on the surface) to remove dust?

Two words: Swiffer Duster!! Works like a freakin' charm and gets underneath and around all my components.

Not even a supersonic Wii remote can penetrate it :)

You'd be surprised what a Wii remote, in the right (9 year old) hands is capable of.:D

I have a quick question. New to plasma displays, we bought our first plasma last year, a Panny 37PX60U for our bedroom. I am getting the 151fd, I saw the 150fd and loved it.
With the Panny, I am noticing a liquid like movement in the blurred background. Picture is clean and nice in the foreground. I notice it with Directv, dvds and games. It is not very noticeable but it's there. Again, it's mostly when there is blurred background. Can anyone tell me whether this is something I will be experiencing with the 151? Is it normal to plasmas? Thanks

Was this liquid movement right after watching a video tape after which the phone rang and someone told you that you were going to die??

I have already purchased a makrolon sheet that will act as a removable barrier for the new Plasma. Not even a supersonic Wii remote can penetrate it :)

I've always been a big fan of the barrier method.

Ok, here's my Dilemma: I purchased a PRO-110FD about 8weeks ago.. I absolutely love it! I have the option to "upgrade" any purchase within 90 days..... Are there any advantages to getting the PRO-111FD over what I already have? It's silly I know, but I hate having "I wish I had" regrets. Is the new 9g Kuro really better then the 8g Kuro (I know it's supposed to be 5x blacker than the previous generation - and I have read everything I could) anything else I'm missing? I value the expert opinions here, in fact, I would not have gotten my present system without your willingness to share your knowledge. I hope the ones who have the insight into the new 9gs can help...Thanks. As an FYI which may or may not help.. I'll be getting the SC-07 when it's available in August. I do use the network capability of the PRO-110FD.

first congrats, you do not have a dilemma. You have the Pro110FD now and it's the best 50" plasma available, PLUS you "absolutely love it" :):) so obviously it is in great shape with no dead/stuck pixels, no buzzing or other problems and all is good in your Kuro Elite plasma heaven. :):)

But just to help.......if you have only the next 4 weeks to return it you will be without an Elite for approx ~5-6+ weeks since the 9G Elite may not be released until end of July~ August. That could change to maybe earlier or later and also depends on the supply when they are released since they may be in low distribution even if you are a good customer with your Elite dealer. Yes, the 9G should be slightly better then the 8G but you already have the Pro110 and are loving it. Another thing to consider depending on how good a deal you got for your Pro110 is that the Pro111 will be $1000 less msrp.

Your choice but I would keep the Pro110FD and keep on enjoying and loving it. or consider the time without it and taking chances on getting the new one pixel perfect, no buzzing, no problems and swapping them out, maybe saving some $ etc.

(1) The very same thing could be done in the display itself. Then it would also work for all sources and not only for Blu-Ray input. And it would also work for other Blu-Ray players, for the PS3 etc. My opinion stays the same: If the 9G Kuros benefit from this RGB color bitdepth upsampling then the Kuro should do that itself - and not depend on being fed this information from the source device.

Unless there's a way to sync the audio with the video, it's probably better that the source do the color bitdepth upsampling. Since it's the source that will correctly output the audio in sync with the video...no matter how much the video might be off from the audio due to the color bitdepth upsampling.

Two words: Swiffer Duster!! Works like a freakin' charm and gets underneath and around all my components.

i wouldnt want any static electricity near any of my gear... two words...no way;)

About to make the dive to preorder the 5020. Do I need to worry about buying from the first batch of tvs of the season?

Does anyone have any information on how supply is going to be for both non-ellite and elites 9G's??
Does it look like those of us who have not pre-ordered might have a hard time finding any in stock during the first month or so after the release?
I am having a hard time deciding if I want to pre-order with a forum sponsor or buy from amazon once the officiial release starts (even though my luck with amazon has not been good, I must admit I liked having the 30 day "any reason" return policy).
My biggest concern is having problems with my set (mainly pixel problems) after the first day or two and having to go thru Pioneer's repair procedures and leave the fate of my new TV in the hands of a pioneer tech to decide what he/she considers acceptable and what is not acceptable. Becasue to me, even one dead pixel on a brand new Elite pioneer should be considered unacceptable. I am probably being over cautious I know, but my luck is absolutly horrible. Last year I got 2 dead PDP-6010's in a row, which the likelyhood is astronomical I have heard.
Thanks, Chad

How about these products?

http://www.klearscreen.com/KlearScreenHD.aspx

Two words: Swiffer Duster!! Works like a freakin' charm and gets underneath and around all my components.

i wouldnt want any static electricity near any of my gear... two words...no way;)

Yeah, swiffers work by creating a static charge to attract dust. Static and electronic components are a bad mix.

I definitely messed up the APL reference ! But I would still like an answer to my original question:
In other words are the grayish whites on a mostly white scene that I observe on an 8G going to be LESS grayish
on a 9G ?

Scotty

From my understanding the reason mostly white screens aren't as white is because it would take too much power to drive an all white screen, therefore plasma will not display full whites on scenes with a lot of white. So I'm guessing this probably isn't going to be improved much until 5 lumen technology is implemented next year which means brighter plasmas and less power consumption.

Ordered my 6020 last night! I'll be watching the Olympics in glorious HD! (I ordered it from Alex at Invision)

I have already purchased a makrolon sheet that will act as a removable barrier for the new Plasma. Not even a supersonic Wii remote can penetrate it :)

What's a makrolon sheet?

first congrats, you do not have a dilemma. You have the Pro110FD now and it's the best 50" plasma available, PLUS you "absolutely love it" :):) so obviously it is in great shape with no dead/stuck pixels, no buzzing or other problems and all is good in your Kuro Elite plasma heaven. :):)

But just to help.......if you have only the next 4 weeks to return it you will be without an Elite for approx ~5-6+ weeks since the 9G Elite may not be released until end of July~ August. That could change to maybe earlier or later and also depends on the supply when they are released since they may be in low distribution even if you are a good customer with your Elite dealer. Yes, the 9G should be slightly better then the 8G but you already have the Pro110 and are loving it. Another thing to consider depending on how good a deal you got for your Pro110 is that the Pro111 will be $1000 less msrp.

Your choice but I would keep the Pro110FD and keep on enjoying and loving it. or consider the time without it and taking chances on getting the new one pixel perfect, no buzzing, no problems and swapping them out, maybe saving some $ etc.

+1

I was in the same boat when I bought my 110 at the end of February. I considered returning it and waiting unil the 111 came out when I found out the price and specs. In my situation, after seeing how spectacular the 110 was, there was no way I could wait another 5-6 months for the 111 so I stuck with the 110 and I'm loving it every day!

I was in the same boat when I bought my 110 at the end of February. I considered returning it and waiting unil the 111 came out when I found out the price and specs. In my situation, after seeing how spectacular the 110 was, there was no way I could wait another 5-6 months for the 111 so I stuck with the 110 and I'm loving it every day!

Something tells me that's how many of us will feel with our 111FD and (presumably) next years 112FD :rolleyes:;) It never ends. lol

What's a makrolon sheet?Clear Polycarbonate plastic, used in bullet proof glass.

LINK (http://www.makrolon.de/bms/db-rsc/makroloncmsr6.nsf/id/Corrective_Lenses_EN) :)

From my understanding the reason mostly white screens aren't as white is because it would take too much power to drive an all white screen, therefore plasma will not display full whites on scenes with a lot of white. So I'm guessing this probably isn't going to be improved much until 5 lumen technology is implemented next year which means brighter plasmas and less power consumption.To get a brighter plasma seems simple but in fact is very complicated.

LINK (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13372312#post13372312)

Well my finances are tighter now so I might as well wait for the 5020 and see what the guinea pigs on this forum report back :)

Hopefully there's no buzzing or early issues with the first production run of the 9Gs.

I need some help with a plasma and my center channel speaker. I currently have a rear projection TV on a stand. I then have this shelf thing that sits on my HDTV and the center speaker is on that. I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to put this same shelf on such a thin (and expensive) plasma.

Anyone have any setup advice?? Maybe something I can buy to put on my table that the plasma would sit on and my speaker could fit under.

I need some help with a plasma and my center channel speaker. I currently have a rear projection TV on a stand. I then have this shelf thing that sits on my HDTV and the center speaker is on that. I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to put this same shelf on such a thin (and expensive) plasma.

Anyone have any setup advice?? Maybe something I can buy to put on my table that the plasma would sit on and my speaker could fit under.

I currentlyhave my Martin Logan center speaker sitting on top of my Sony 36XBR400. I am thinking of using this stand once I get my 141FD ...

http://www.bdiusa.com/avfurniture/deploy_9639.shtml

The shelf is adjustable (so I assume removable) so I will put my speaker below on the bottom shelf.

First, thank you gus738, disturbo1 and lewdog for responding.
I suspect HDCanHD said it best:


Something tells me that's how many of us will feel with our 111FD and (presumably) next years 112FD :rolleyes:;) It never ends. lol


I do love my Kuro and have no problems.. I think the best thing for me to do is to quit reading about the "new" stuff and enjoy what I have....
But that 9g, I still can't believe it could be better than the 8g.. AGHHHH...

I need some help with a plasma and my center channel speaker. I currently have a rear projection TV on a stand. I then have this shelf thing that sits on my HDTV and the center speaker is on that. I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to put this same shelf on such a thin (and expensive) plasma.

Anyone have any setup advice?? Maybe something I can buy to put on my table that the plasma would sit on and my speaker could fit under.

There is a furniture thread with lots of ideas.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=416358

Yeah, swiffers work by creating a static charge to attract dust. Static and electronic components are a bad mix.

My Swiffer has never once even sparked and I think you guys are being a little un-realistic. When you find one case of a swiffer blowing up an AV Receiver let me know. You have more potential from your body creating a charge than the Swiffer. Do you touch something to discharge your body before putting a DVD in?? Humidity levels in your home play a big role as well.

My Swiffer has never once even sparked and I think you guys are being a little un-realistic. When you find one case of a swiffer blowing up an AV Receiver let me know. You have more potential from your body creating a charge than the Swiffer. Do you touch something to discharge your body before putting a DVD in?? Humidity levels in your home play a big role as well.

I use swiffers on my electronic equipment all of the time and have never seen a spark from using them.

I think the best thing for me to do is to quit reading about the "new" stuff and enjoy what I have....
But that 9g, I still can't believe it could be better than the 8g.. AGHHHH...

That is what my wife says, "Just buy it, and quit reading about the other ones."

I own an Oppo 980 and an Integra DTC 9.8 and am planning on getting either the 6020 or 151...depending on how much the price difference is. In someones opinion who has this setup with an 8G, which would be better at upscaling...

1. Oppo at 480i--->Integra 9.8 set to through--->6020 to 1080p.
2. Oppo at 480i--->Integra 9.8 set to through--->151 to 1080p.
3. Oppo at 480i--->Integra 9.8 to 1080p--->6020/151

I wish all of life's decisions would be this hard :).

Can some one help with this question? One of the reasons I bought the Integra was because of the upscaling abilities. From what everyone is saying about the upscaling of the Kuro's, the Integra might have to just pass the signal to the 151 (which I plan on ordering from Robert...Thank you sir :D)
Please help :o.

That is what my wife says, "Just buy it, and quit reading about the other ones."

HAHA!!! My wife says the same thing: "...shut up and buy the ___ thing already!" :D

HAHA!!! My wife says the same thing: "...shut up and buy the ___ thing already!" :D

haha you guys have such disrespectful wives! ;)

Can some one help with this question? One of the reasons I bought the Integra was because of the upscaling abilities. From what everyone is saying about the upscaling of the Kuro's, the Integra might have to just pass the signal to the 151 (which I plan on ordering from Robert...Thank you sir :D)
Please help :o.

I want to know about the upscaling abilities of the Kuros also. If you have a 9G, would the Integra (or even more pricey, a Lumagen XD) improve the picture at all?

I want to know about the upscaling abilities of the Kuros also. If you have a 9G, would the Integra (or even more pricey, a Lumagen XD) improve the picture at all?
Lumagen's better deinterlacing and no-ring scaling would definitely improve the picture, as would the advanced calibration features of the Radiance.

I have already purchased a makrolon sheet that will act as a removable barrier for the new Plasma. Not even a supersonic Wii remote can penetrate it :)

BTW, I'm assuming you're kidding about this.

My Swiffer has never once even sparked and I think you guys are being a little un-realistic. When you find one case of a swiffer blowing up an AV Receiver let me know. You have more potential from your body creating a charge than the Swiffer. Do you touch something to discharge your body before putting a DVD in?? Humidity levels in your home play a big role as well.

When I was in college, a kid in the dorms fried his computer with a swiffer. Now, he was using it inside the case to clean the dust out. Perhaps if you're just dusting the outside of your components, the charge is dissipated by the grounding of the case and the components inside are protected.

I've been following this forum for some time as I plan on upgrading my 9 yr old system at the end of the year or there abouts. There has been some amount of space taken up on arguing, debating, questioning etc on what the end results will be based on the published specs. At best, I would be qualified as an interested party in the audio/video technologies as my experience contails strictly of watching and listening to my current system, my first "home theatre". The one thing I do believe is that specs are to be taken with a grain of salt and the implementation of those specs is the defining product. From what I've read, Robert is the only person to have "eyes on" experience with these new products and many have ignored his report in favor of questioning the specs and arguing over the quality of pictures displayed on an LCD.

In following this post and others, it is easily determined who has legitimate input from those that just want to speculate on these products due to frustration of not having them available at this time. I'm lucky. My timeline allows me the patience to wait for these models to become available and let these knowledgable folks put them thru the hoops. Pioneer is noted for producing good results on their specs, but the proof is in the pudding. My intent is to encourage those that want comparison reviews to wait until those reviews are possible. I have no doubt that Pioneer will win in any comparison, but it will be nice to have the facts of the end product to verify this.



Very well spoken billybob ..... I couldn't agree more :)

BTW, I'm assuming you're kidding about this.Actually no :) Well maybe about the supersonic part......

Is it just me or did this thread slow down a little? I think these need to hurry up and ship and then we will be back on track :)

Is it just me or did this thread slow down a little? I think these need to hurry up and ship and then we will be back on track :)

You're right. I've noticed that the flood of "PM me" posts have slowed to a trickle. :rolleyes: Maybe someone should start a new, unsubstantiated rumor to get people talking again. Something along the lines of, "Pioneer's plasma panels emit a low level of infrared radiation that triggers a chemical reaction in a human brain, usually resulting in an unexplainable disappearance of several thousand dollars from one's bank account and a compulsion to stare at a black 'hole' for hours on end." :D

I don't have any new rumors, but I did pre-order a 151 this morning! Must of had that chemical reaction! Now the hunt for a receiver begins! I wonder if that is a side effect...

D-Nice or Robert, can you comment on the "no menu items for these functions" on the non-Elites? How important is a lack of end-user settings for Picture Detail and Noise Reduction on the 9G?

Roman,

If you want to revive this thread, this question is a good place to start! :) It will help all of us who are trying to decide whether the Elite is worth the extra money for our viewing conditions / methods / expectations.

funny how we get worked-up into a frenzy over the next generation models when many of us are just getting used to the 8G displays (only a few months old):D

Roman,

If you want to revive this thread, this question is a good place to start! :) It will help all of us who are trying to decide whether the Elite is worth the extra money for our viewing conditions / methods / expectations.

+1

Actually no :) Well maybe about the supersonic part......

Really? I'm intrigued....how are you going to attach this stuff? Please PM me if you feel this is getting OT.

If the player is capable of sending a PAL signal, the Kuro will display it.

I assume it will be the same as the 8Gs. Do we know if they display PAL at 50Hz or if it is processing to display at 60Hz?

Will PureCinema Advanced work with film-based PAL DVD?

I don't have any new rumors, but I did pre-order a 151 this morning! Must of had that chemical reaction! Now the hunt for a receiver begins! I wonder if that is a side effect...

Perhaps I'm a little bit slow, but how did you do that? I'm also interested in the pro-151, and I keep hearing about the forum sponsors, but no mention of who they are or the correct way to get in touch with them about something like this.

Perhaps I'm a little bit slow, but how did you do that? I'm also interested in the pro-151, and I keep hearing about the forum sponsors, but no mention of who they are or the correct way to get in touch with them about something like this.

If you look at the banner ads at the top of the forum page (there are now 16 boxes) among them are forum sponsors who sell plasma tvs (among other things). Also, at the bottom of this page are four text-based ads for sponsors. Finally, if you look in some of the members' signatures, you will see that they are sponsors.

Good luck.

My Swiffer has never once even sparked and I think you guys are being a little un-realistic. When you find one case of a swiffer blowing up an AV Receiver let me know. You have more potential from your body creating a charge than the Swiffer. Do you touch something to discharge your body before putting a DVD in?? Humidity levels in your home play a big role as well.

I don't know about plasmas, but a CRT display's front glass is very changed with static electricity. That's why the screens are always coated with so much dust. You can rub your fingers lightly across the glass and easily hear the static electricity discharging with a sparking sound.

My local dealer wants to see the Tweeter price on the Elite 151FD that everyone has been preordering. Is there a web ad or something that I can show him? Thanks for the help!

You're right. I've noticed that the flood of "PM me" posts have slowed to a trickle. :rolleyes: Maybe someone should start a new, unsubstantiated rumor to get people talking again. Something along the lines of, "Pioneer's plasma panels emit a low level of infrared radiation that triggers a chemical reaction in a human brain, usually resulting in an unexplainable disappearance of several thousand dollars from one's bank account and a compulsion to stare at a black 'hole' for hours on end." :D

Actually it's nice to have mostly on-topic posts instead of the way-to-many impolite and totally of-topic posts. I don't want volume, I want quality.

Guys pre-ordering isn't rocket science. But it does take some work and patience. I researched all the forum sponsors, did some searches on google for shops that sold the 150 and did a lot of emailing and made a few phone calls. Most of the forum sponsors got back to me within two days from sending a pm. In a couple of cases, I sent email through there actual business email address as well. Everyone's price is within a few hundred dollars of each other even vendors that aren't sponsors that I researched. These guys are competing for your business but they are not going to spoon feed you the info. My advice is show some initiative, my guess is it will go a long way to show you are a buyer and not a window shopper and get you the info you need.

There is a Pure A/V picture mode. Pure Cinema deals with film de-interlacing/frame duplication.

This question if for anyone...

D-Nice mentioned that setting the Elite out of the box to "Pure" mode and Color Space 2 would give nice results or would be somewhat close to accurate without an ISF calibration.


I would think based on what "Pure Cinema" mode does, it would help to set it at that too and leave it on? INCLUDING with having it set to Pure mode and Color Space 2.


I would hope that Pure Cinema mode helps the display know what kind of video is being sent to it and that it will automatically set the correct "cadence?" as to what the original source is, such as 24, 30 or 60fps and for it to be shown properly...without having to manually turn "Pure Cinema" mode on and off all the time.

If I had my Pioneer blu-ray player set to 24fps output, does it hurt to leave Pure Cinema on all the time...or would it even matter?

My local dealer wants to see the Tweeter price on the Elite 151FD that everyone has been preordering. Is there a web ad or something that I can show him? Thanks for the help!
You would need to find one of the flyers that they mailed out. The pricing on their web site has been removed.

On the topic of Elite vs. non-Elite, I think D-Nice at least partially answered this some time ago. Now I can't find it. So, hoping this isn't too redundant or simplistic, here goes: I was set on getting the 5020, but the 111F is intriguing. As I will NOT be getting either one professionally calibrated, will the 111 have better PQ with D-Nice's stated settings than the 5020 (based on the 5010 and the 110, of course)?

Roman,

If you want to revive this thread, this question is a good place to start! :) It will help all of us who are trying to decide whether the Elite is worth the extra money for our viewing conditions / methods / expectations.

+2...this question has remained unanswered for the second day now. I want to know that i'll be able to adjust DRE and turn off noise reduction in the menu on the 5020

As I will NOT be getting either one professionally calibrated, will the 111 have better PQ with D-Nice's stated settings than the 5020 (based on the 5010 and the 110, of course)?

Yes.:)

HDPeeT! Thanks!! I'm goin' for it (the 111)!

I do love my Kuro and have no problems.. I think the best thing for me to do is to quit reading about the "new" stuff and enjoy what I have....
But that 9g, I still can't believe it could be better than the 8g.. AGHHHH...

Fear not, the improvement going from the 7g to the 8th g is far greater than going from the 8g to the 9th g. But if you need to have the best, well.......

You're right. I've noticed that the flood of "PM me" posts have slowed to a trickle. :rolleyes: Maybe someone should start a new, unsubstantiated rumor to get people talking again.

I heard from the gardener's wife that in a last minute decision Pioneer decided to drop the MSRP by 50% and incorporate all the changes contemplated in the 10th g in the 9th g. But that was just a rumor. :D

questions like this are welcome:D as we want to know :cool:



On the topic of Elite vs. non-Elite, I think D-Nice at least partially answered this some time ago. Now I can't find it. So, hoping this isn't too redundant or simplistic, here goes: I was set on getting the 5020, but the 111F is intriguing. As I will NOT be getting either one professionally calibrated, will the 111 have better PQ with D-Nice's stated settings than the 5020 (based on the 5010 and the 110, of course)?

This question if for anyone...

D-Nice mentioned that setting the Elite out of the box to "Pure" mode and Color Space 2 would give nice results or would be somewhat close to accurate without an ISF calibration.


I would think based on what "Pure Cinema" mode does, it would help to set it at that too and leave it on? INCLUDING with having it set to Pure mode and Color Space 2.


I would hope that Pure Cinema mode helps the display know what kind of video is being sent to it and that it will automatically set the correct "cadence?" as to what the original source is, such as 24, 30 or 60fps and for it to be shown properly...without having to manually turn "Pure Cinema" mode on and off all the time.

If I had my Pioneer blu-ray player set to 24fps output, does it hurt to leave Pure Cinema on all the time...or would it even matter?

I heard from the gardener's wife that in a last minute decision Pioneer decided to drop the MSRP by 50% and incorporate all the changes contemplated in the 10th g in the 9th g. But that was just a rumor. :D

I heard they were giving 'em away free with a two year subscription to DirecTV.

With all the talk about the Oppo passing 480i via HDMI unaltered, does anyone know if the "source direct" mode on the new Pioneer Blu-ray players will do just as good a job passing DVD 480i signals UNALTERED via it's HDMI connection?

If so, that would be a great feature to have with the new G9 displays.

I heard they were giving 'em away free with a two year subscription to DirecTV.

ken ross and hdpeet please drop it :o

otherwise this thead gonna be close and a re make will make its away:rolleyes:

does invasion sell elite?

does invasion sell elite?Call their 800 number which is available at their web site.

does invasion sell elite?

No.

From my understanding the reason mostly white screens aren't as white is because it would take too much power to drive an all white screen, therefore plasma will not display full whites on scenes with a lot of white. So I'm guessing this probably isn't going to be improved much until 5 lumen technology is implemented next year which means brighter plasmas and less power consumption.

I wonder if the G9s will be a tiny bit brighter than G8s when there's all white in a sceen of a movie. I wonder since it was said on this forum that that peak white level was a little bit brighter in the G9s than in the G8s.

Sure, after ISF calabration the G9s and G8s would look the same brightwise, and since the higher bright peak shows up on the G9s when turning up the contrast more than what's considered to be within the range of proper adjustment...I would think that AFTER ISF calabration, that because of the brighter white peak on the G9s, that there MIGHT be a chance that one would see a slightly brighter picture when an all white sceen appears on the G9s when compaired to the G8s.

ken ross and hdpeet please drop it :o

otherwise this thead gonna be close and a re make will make its away:rolleyes:

does invasion sell elite?

C'mon now, a little sense of humor is needed at times with all the dry stuff we post. Loosen up guy.

C'mon now, a little sense of humor is needed at times with all the dry stuff we post. Loosen up guy.

+1

C'mon now, a little sense of humor is needed at times with all the dry stuff we post. Loosen up guy.

+1 He's not your guy, friend! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5uzJVkeaUI)

PIP works perfectly with a PC using DVI - HDMI or DVI - VGA or just VGA and of course, you can use two STBs as well. So I guess we can call it PIP and or PIPC.

At the road show Josh demonstrated PIP with a PC in the small insert. Also the PIP can easily be placed in any corner of the screen.

-Robert
Robert:
To display NTSC or ATSC OTA (Only) reception on the upcomng 9G Elite, would I need just one Pioneer DVR-LX70D, or would I need two 70D's?
I already have have an existing rotatable UHF/VHF antenna that gives excellant reception to my analog TV.

I heard from the gardener's wife that in a last minute decision Pioneer decided to drop the MSRP by 50% and incorporate all the changes contemplated in the 10th g in the 9th g. But that was just a rumor. :D

You gotta be careful with posts like this, or you'll soon see articles like the following on Crave.com or the like:

"Internet reports say that Pioneer will drop their MSRP on Kuro plasma televisions by as much as 50% and accelerate the introduction of 10th generation features."

You gotta be careful with posts like this, or you'll soon see articles like the following on Crave.com or the like:

"Internet reports say that Pioneer will drop their MSRP on Kuro plasma televisions by as much as 50% and accelerate the introduction of 10th generation features."

You heard it here first!!!

Ok, this isn't the regular elite vs. non-elite post.

It seems that around here most agree that the 9G Elite will be more accurate out-of-the-box than non-elite thus making ISF less required. However one of the main selling points of the elites are the extra settings for calibration. This is a bit of a paradox so I'm wondering what people would expect to yield a better result

A) a non-elite (6020) with ISF
B) an elite (151) without ISF

I have been leaning towards getting a 6020 and having it calibrated but reading around here about the increased calibration options on the 151 I started thinking going that route so the calibrator would have more to work with. Now I'm wondering if I get the 151 can I do away with the calibration.

I know the best option is the 151 with calibration, but that is obviously the most expensive and I can't completely ignore cost so I'm looking for the right price/performance ration between the above choices.

Thanks.

I always say get the Elite and use some D-NICE settings. You can always calibrate it in a few months ;) Its all bout budget :)

Now I'm wondering if I get the 151 can I do away with the calibration.

I know the best option is the 151 with calibration, but that is obviously the most expensive and I can't completely ignore cost so I'm looking for the right price/performance ration between the above choices.

Thanks.


How about DIY Calibration.. :D

Buy the Elite and I'll throw in ControlCAL with the Pioneer ISF C3 Profiles for Free.. :D

Whoa, what is ControlCAL? I looked at the link, but it was confusing. Does this replace ISF calibration?

Roman (or D-NICE or ROBERT):
On D-NICE's reference settings for the 110FD, he has the color at +6 and he has made adjustments to individual colors. Will this wreck the plasma during the fist 200 hrs? (The color at +6 seems high and I'm not sure about adjusting individual colors---will this do anything harmful?)

Also... will owners of the 8G's get the same benefits on the new BD players or are they designed to work strictly with the new 9Gs???

If anyone out there has a 110, can you post your basic picture settings...that'd be awesome/ Thanks guys:)

Whoa, what is ControlCAL? I looked at the link, but it was confusing. Does this replace ISF calibration?
ControlCAL is 1 of 3 Software Tools available for 8G Elites to access the ISFccc Memories for each Input (ISF-DAY and ISF-NIGHT), all the Standard Controls plus 9 Point Gamma Controls.

Currently, ControlCAL is the only Tool available to access the 9G's. :D

It is used for Pioneer ISFccc Calibration....


-Shawn

A) a non-elite (6020) with ISFDepending on who does the calibration the 6020 would probably come close enough that most people wouldn't be able to see the difference. I doubt that I would based on my 6010 experience. :rolleyes:

B) an elite (151) without ISFThat would depend on the skill of the owner, or D-Nices settings. :)

Roman (or D-NICE or ROBERT):
On D-NICE's reference settings for the 110FD, he has the color at +6 and he has made adjustments to individual colors. Will this wreck the plasma during the fist 200 hrs? (The color at +6 seems high and I'm not sure about adjusting individual colors---will this do anything harmful?)


You should be fine, I would not worry about it.

He's not your guy, friend!

He's not your friend, Buddy! :D

Classic episode. Maybe if Canada didn't go on strike they wouldn't have to pay more for a Pioneer TV up there. ;)

ControlCAL is 1 of 3 Software Tools available for 8G Elites to access the ISFccc Memories for each Input (ISF-DAY and ISF-NIGHT), all the Standard Controls plus 9 Point Gamma Controls.

Currently, ControlCAL is the only Tool available to access the 9G's. :D

It is used for Pioneer ISFccc Calibration....


-Shawn

It's nice that you provide the paint brush, but now I need to learn how to paint. As long as I can erase and start again, it could be fun. Then again, maybe D-NICE will paint a picture we can all enjoy.

D-Nice or Robert, can you comment on the "no menu items for these functions" on the non-Elites? How important is a lack of end-user settings for Picture Detail and Noise Reduction on the 9G?

I will check with product management and post what I find out.

-Robert

IMO, if they were done on a per-pixel level, there shouldn't be varying levels of processing. It should either be ON (and be effective) or OFF (as-is).

I was probably under the wrong impression. I thought the Elite could mostly calibrate itself, based on a built-in sensor; and that the 6020 could not do this. It would be nice not to need an ISF technician to come by my place---we are an hour's drive away from the nearest one, and by the time I add up the costs, it comes to about the price difference between the elite and the 6020. So, can the Elites use their sensors to self-calibrate most of what is needed?

alternatively, is the 6020 out of the box pretty well calibrated in one particular setting, so that an ISF technician is gravy, but not essential?

/iaw

I don't want to crash the thread here, but I am considering upgrading from my 4360 to to 5020 this summer and am wondering if you can stream blu ray rips to the current elite models. I read the specs on pioneer's site, but can anyone confirm? I can stream rips to my PS3, but not VC-1 titles, and I have to change them to .mpg extensions in order for the PS3 to recognize the files. But they do stream well. I use a Tvix 6500 for VC-1 titles, but could sell it if the Pioneer plasmas are able to handle VC-1 blu ray rips. Any answers are greatly appreciated. Thanks.

PS-I had posted this earlier in the Media Gallery thread but didn't get any answers, so maybe some of you with current elite models can answer this question for me.

dodeman, ^^ I cut and pasted this off the PDP-5020FD .pdf data sheet on my site.

Home Media Gallery
IP Network Compatibility Designed to DLNA Guidelines: Enables a ››
link with a networked PC to share content via Ethernet connection, including movies (even HD movie content), music and photos.
Microsoft PlaysForSure™ Protected Content: No-hassle playback of Microsoft PlaysForSure audio or video content downloaded from the web and stored on personal computers, via an existing home network system.2

Supported Formats:

Video: WMV9, MPEG1, MPEG2-PS, MPEG2-TS, MPEG4 (SP/ASP), MPEG4 (H.264/AVC)

Audio: WMA9, MP3, Linear PCM (WAV), HE-AAC, MPEG-4 AAC––

Photos: JPG, PNG, GIF, TIFF, BMP––


-Robert

As long as I can erase and start again, it could be fun.

ControlCAL does have an option (Button) to Reset an Input's ISF Mode (i.e. Reset Input 3/ISF-Day, ISF-Day would be removed from the AV Select Options for Input 3). :D


-Shawn

I wonder if the G9s will be a tiny bit brighter than G8s when there's all white in a sceen of a movie. I wonder since it was said on this forum that that peak white level was a little bit brighter in the G9s than in the G8s.

Sure, after ISF calabration the G9s and G8s would look the same brightwise, and since the higher bright peak shows up on the G9s when turning up the contrast more than what's considered to be within the range of proper adjustment...I would think that AFTER ISF calabration, that because of the brighter white peak on the G9s, that there MIGHT be a chance that one would see a slightly brighter picture when an all white sceen appears on the G9s when compaired to the G8s.

My non-technical reasoning tells me this is a possiblity. Most here don't care for increased brightness so likely you'll have to see it in person to know the real truth.

I cut and pasted this off the PDP-5020FD .pdf data sheet on my site.
IP Network Compatibility Designed to DLNA Guidelines: Enables a ››
link with a networked PC to share content via Ethernet connection, including movies (even HD movie content), music and photos.
Microsoft PlaysForSure™ Protected Content: No-hassle playback of Microsoft PlaysForSure audio or video content downloaded from the web and stored on personal computers, via an existing home network system.2did'nt have time to check, but does the new SC-09TX receiver have this new (IP Network Compatibility) technology as well?

My non-technical reasoning tells me this is a possibility. Most here don't care for increased brightness so likely you'll have to see it in person to know the real truth.

Increased brightness does not mean much to me either, unless there's a full white scene that calls for a certain level of brightness that the display is not capable of.

Like you said, unless it was compared to another display that could produce the right kind of brightness level sitting right next to it with a full screen of white snow on mountains at high noon, I may not even know.

It would be interesting to be able to see if there's a difference in brightness level (even if it's slight) if both 9G and 8G ISF calibrated showing a full screen of white snow on mountains at high noon.

Funny now that I think of it, a scene like that happens hardly at anytime. One time I can recall is one of the Olympics in HD during the breaks would show this HD loop of the snow on the mountains while flying in a helicopter.

Oh, and maybe a James Bond flick or two! Snow ski to get away from the bad guys anyone?!

Ok, this isn't the regular elite vs. non-elite post.

It seems that around here most agree that the 9G Elite will be more accurate out-of-the-box than non-elite thus making ISF less required. However one of the main selling points of the elites are the extra settings for calibration. This is a bit of a paradox so I'm wondering what people would expect to yield a better result

A) a non-elite (6020) with ISF
B) an elite (151) without ISF

I have been leaning towards getting a 6020 and having it calibrated but reading around here about the increased calibration options on the 151 I started thinking going that route so the calibrator would have more to work with. Now I'm wondering if I get the 151 can I do away with the calibration.

I know the best option is the 151 with calibration, but that is obviously the most expensive and I can't completely ignore cost so I'm looking for the right price/performance ration between the above choices.

Thanks.

Elite with D-Nice settings for sure!

However, the 6020 is surely a good TV on its own. If you're unsure of
getting an elite for the sake of us saying it's great, then just stick to the
6020. If you're not going to use the features, don't bother. My pro-150FD
PQ for the most part, is similar to a calibrated 6020 when I don't use the
ISF reference settings. If you don't know, the ISF settings are not for
everyone, so you best be careful what you do to a non-elite when it comes
to professional calibration. Of course, this is all in my opinion.

I was probably under the wrong impression. I thought the Elite could mostly calibrate itself, based on a built-in sensor; and that the 6020 could not do this. It would be nice not to need an ISF technician to come by my place---we are an hour's drive away from the nearest one, and by the time I add up the costs, it comes to about the price difference between the elite and the 6020. So, can the Elites use their sensors to self-calibrate most of what is needed?

alternatively, is the 6020 out of the box pretty well calibrated in one particular setting, so that an ISF technician is gravy, but not essential?

/iaw

You're combining a few things here. The panel that has some self-callibration abilities are the Elite Signature series - monitor only and can be callibrated remotely. I don't think this will be as effective as an in-home callibration. I don't think you'll NEED an isf callibration. Many people were 1000% satisfied with their 8th generation sets without callibration. The next generation should be even better. And good people here will post settings that will get you in the ballpark. That said, you can have an excellent callibration for far less than the difference between an elite and regular Kuro. I think the difference seems to be around $1000. Some of the very top callibrators go on tour in your neck of the woods and would callibrate your set for less than half of that amount.

dodeman, ^^ I cut and pasted this off the PDP-5020FD .pdf data sheet on my site.

Home Media Gallery
IP Network Compatibility Designed to DLNA Guidelines: Enables a ››
link with a networked PC to share content via Ethernet connection, including movies (even HD movie content), music and photos.
Microsoft PlaysForSure™ Protected Content: No-hassle playback of Microsoft PlaysForSure audio or video content downloaded from the web and stored on personal computers, via an existing home network system.2

Supported Formats:

Video: WMV9, MPEG1, MPEG2-PS, MPEG2-TS, MPEG4 (SP/ASP), MPEG4 (H.264/AVC)

Audio: WMA9, MP3, Linear PCM (WAV), HE-AAC, MPEG-4 AAC––

Photos: JPG, PNG, GIF, TIFF, BMP––


-Robert

I can't figure out from this whether they will be playing nicely with Apple computers this year or not. AAC is an apple form of compression; right? Is this Microsoftplaysforsure compatible with apple? Do I need it to stream movies or pictures from my computer? Anyone? It would be nice if Pioneer decided this year to let Apple users in on the fun. There are a lot of us.

vashti are you thinking the audio coding for the mac/apple or the aacs encryption? and i too noticed that the elite 9g is around 4gs while the 8g reg is 3gs and i want the any new 9g but the elite sounds too great....

i want to calibrate it sooner or later once umr is around so what do you think

5020fD or pro-111fd ?

I can't answer whether elite or regular Kuro is right for you. That's something that each person has to answer for themselves. Since you want to have it callibrated, I would say if you can afford it, the elite will get you a better picture.

If I'm right, aac is a form of audio compression which is only available on Apples. It's what all my compressed music is compressed with.

aac yes its a conpression but whats it regards?


bestbuy workers does the computer find the new models yet?


heres to hope bestbuy gets better discount to employes

because 4k for an elite is not in my range:(

Thank you to every participant on this thread (and a few from this forum's other threads during the past year). I've learned alot. Especially from the more experienced/knowledgeable and regular posters.

I had planned on purchasing a Panasonic TH-58PZ750U, then elected to wait for the yet-to-be released THX-Certified TH-58PZ800U. But after perusing this thread, other threads, and thorough research, I reconciled to a Pioneer PDP-6020FD. I ultimately concluded that the marginal increase in price can be justified by averaging it over the display's anticipated lifespan and the significant increase in video quality.

So after pre-ordering the 6020 from forum sponsor & authorized dealer Invision Displays (specifically, their regular poster Alex), I have graduated from lurker to full member.

Once we begin taking delivery, I look forward to the sharing of recommended settings. Again... Thanks for all the great advice.

(Special thanks to George Bush for payment assistance via the economic stimulus rebate.)

Can anyone share their experience with the ethernet connectivity of their displays? (I understand that the 8G Elites had this feature/functionality.)

Is the DLNA interface new to the 9Gs? Or did the 8G Elites have that feature?

I suspect software will be included with the 9Gs for installation on networked PCs. Correct?

How much bandwidth is required for H.264 AVC files? (I may be restricted to the use ethernet-over-powerline adapters.)

Welcome to the forum, D-Dub!

To all those asking about the "no menu items for these functions" thing:

In the non-elites, it appears that you will be only be able to adjust the settings for these things by changing the preset picture mode. According to another thread, they did this because they added an elite feature to the regular pioneers this year (the ethernet port) and they had to change something to further differentiate their product. Anyways, each pre-set picture mode will likely offer different combination of these settings. While this arrangement is slightly annoying, I will presume that in the movie and user modes all the stupid enhancement features (CTI, DRE etc.) will be off anyway, so it won't matter much if at all. I'd take the ethernet port over the ability to turn on some strange enhancer any day. And although the loss of gamma and color temp hurts, i presume that at least one of the preset modes offers the proper combination of on/off/high/low settings for proper home theater.

My guess would be:
Dynamic: Everything set to high, or on, cool color
Standard, sports: Everything set to middle, like last year
Performance, optimum: no idea
Sports: Between Dynamic and standard
Movie, user: Warm color and middle gamma, everything else lowest setting, maybe 2 for enhancer mode

Service menu will presumably be able to alter anything for these modes fairly easily, so hopefully these settings are technically not gone, just hiding. Calibration is key, of course.

All of this is just my specualtion, I'm probably wrong on some of it. But overall I'm not too worried at this point since most of that stuff was useless if you set it to the right picture mode. Robert/D-nice will have the official word.

For those who have been fortunate enough to compare 60Hz 3:2 Pull-Down versus 72Hz 3:3 24-FPS on their 8Gs, what did you observe?

What performance enhancement, if any, is expected from the 9Gs?

Are there any Canadian forum sponsors for Pioneer's here? All the sponsors I've seen are US based.

Canada's got get some love too.

Thanks.

It would be interesting to be able to see if there's a difference in brightness level (even if it's slight) if both 9G and 8G ISF calibrated showing a full screen of white snow on mountains at high noon.

I now remember reading in this thread that the 60" brightness level is now (about) on par with the 50" brightness level.

I think it was the G8 60"ers that were not as bright as the 50"ers.

So I think that pretty much almost answers my question...

I will check with product management and post what I find out.

-Robert

Seriously, I am shocked they got rid of the functions. The elite 151FD pdf
indicates the Picture detail settings are now an exclusive elite feature, while
the older 150FD pdf did *NOT* indicate these were elite features. Seems a
little spin-doctor going on at Pioneer's end to make the elite even more
distinguishable from the non-elite. I don't get the impression of it being a
cost-cutting measure or anything for the non-elites.

Seriously, if anything, see if you can ask why they removed the feature.

Seriously, I am shocked they got rid of the functions. The elite 151FD pdf indicates the Picture detail settings are now an exclusive elite feature, while the older 150FD pdf did *NOT* indicate these were elite features. Seems a little spin-doctor going on at Pioneer's end to make the elite even more distinguishable from the non-elite. I don't get the impression of it being a cost-cutting measure or anything for the non-elites.

Seriously, if anything, see if you can ask why they removed the feature.How else can Pioneer compel buyer's to pay a premium for their displays, while at the same time making their non-Elite models more price competitive with the Panasonic & Vizio PDPs of this world?

How else can Pioneer compel buyer's to pay a premium for their displays, while at the same time making their non-Elite models more price competitive with the Panasonic & Vizio PDPs of this world?

...a special offer including dancing girls (or firemen for Vashti) ;) to hand deliver each Elite and keep you company through your break-in period?

To all those asking about the "no menu items for these functions" thing:

In the non-elites, it appears that you will be only be able to adjust the settings for these things by changing the preset picture mode. According to another thread, they did this because they added an elite feature to the regular pioneers this year (the ethernet port) and they had to change something to further differentiate their product. Anyways, each pre-set picture mode will likely offer different combination of these settings.
All of this is just my specualtion, I'm probably wrong on some of it. But overall I'm not too worried at this point since most of that stuff was useless if you set it to the right picture mode. Robert/D-nice will have the official word.

Am I missing something here? Wouldn't this be a stunning development? No settings in the menu for DRE and Gamma along with a list of other things? Seems that would go a long way to differentiating the Elites from the Non-Elites and perhaps a reason to buy a Non-Elite 8G now. I am surprised that Robert has to check on this, as I would have expected this to be a point of emphasis at the conference if true.

What's up with only one component input on the 6020?

I don't have a receiver with component inputs so now I am going to have to switch my Wii and 360 component cables every time I want to play the other one.

Why couldn't they have just thrown an extra component input in?

Am I missing something here? Wouldn't this be a stunning development? No settings in the menu for DRE and Gamma along with a list of other things? Seems that would go a long way to differentiating the Elites from the Non-Elites and perhaps a reason to but a Non-Elite 8G now. I am surprised that Robert has to check on this, as I would have expected this to be a point of emphasis at the conference if true.

Ok, could this be a deal breaker for Non Elite 5020 or 6020 purchasers? This is a potential critical issue for some of us, thanks.
:confused:

For those who have been fortunate enough to compare 60Hz 3:2 Pull-Down versus 72Hz 3:3 24-FPS on their 8Gs, what did you observe?
3:2 pulldown: judder with any kind of movement. 3:3 pulldown: perfectly smooth motion (as much as can be expected from 24fps)
What performance enhancement, if any, is expected from the 9Gs?
In this area? Nothing.

dodeman, ^^ I cut and pasted this off the PDP-5020FD .pdf data sheet on my site.

Home Media Gallery
IP Network Compatibility Designed to DLNA Guidelines: Enables a ››
link with a networked PC to share content via Ethernet connection, including movies (even HD movie content), music and photos.
Microsoft PlaysForSure™ Protected Content: No-hassle playback of Microsoft PlaysForSure audio or video content downloaded from the web and stored on personal computers, via an existing home network system.2

Supported Formats:

Video: WMV9, MPEG1, MPEG2-PS, MPEG2-TS, MPEG4 (SP/ASP), MPEG4 (H.264/AVC)

Audio: WMA9, MP3, Linear PCM (WAV), HE-AAC, MPEG-4 AAC––

Photos: JPG, PNG, GIF, TIFF, BMP––


-Robert

Yes, this is what I have read before, but has anyone actually tried streaming blu ray rips to their elites?

You can always get a component switchbox... I use one for my Sony 36HS500 CRT, and although I'm sure there's a bit of video degredation going through the box (varies depending on the box/cables used), it's unnoticable from my perspective. Not to mention the convenience of not having to constantly swap out the cables.

You could always shell out for the Xbox360 Elite and go HDMI, leaving the component input for the Wii. :)

What's up with only one component input on the 6020?

I don't have a receiver with component inputs so now I am going to have to switch my Wii and 360 component cables every time I want to play the other one.

Why couldn't they have just thrown an extra component input in?

Yes, this is what I have read before, but has anyone actually tried streaming blu ray rips to their elites?

+1

Yes, this is what I have read before, but has anyone actually tried streaming blu ray rips to their elites?

Don't know if this helps, but I've streamed standard ripped DVDs, and WMV HD content. You can get clips here from Microsoft (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/musicandvideo/hdvideo/contentshowcase.aspx) to play with WMV HD 720p and 1080p. Sorry, have not tried blu-ray.

Did someone post a manual for the 9g's yet? I thought I saw a post a while back but I did a search and could not find it, maybe I was confusing the spec sheet for a manual?

With all the talk about the Oppo passing 480i via HDMI unaltered, does anyone know if the "source direct" mode on the new Pioneer Blu-ray players will do just as good a job passing DVD 480i signals UNALTERED via it's HDMI connection?

If so, that would be a great feature to have with the new G9 displays.

Not sure about the Pioneers, but per my conversation with a Sony rep the soon to be released S350 and S550 will!

To all those asking about the "no menu items for these functions" thing:

In the non-elites, it appears that you will be only be able to adjust the settings for these things by changing the preset picture mode. According to another thread, they did this because they added an elite feature to the regular pioneers this year (the ethernet port) and they had to change something to further differentiate their product. Anyways, each pre-set picture mode will likely offer different combination of these settings. While this arrangement is slightly annoying, I will presume that in the movie and user modes all the stupid enhancement features (CTI, DRE etc.) will be off anyway, so it won't matter much if at all. I'd take the ethernet port over the ability to turn on some strange enhancer any day. And although the loss of gamma and color temp hurts, i presume that at least one of the preset modes offers the proper combination of on/off/high/low settings for proper home theater.

My guess would be:
Dynamic: Everything set to high, or on, cool color
Standard, sports: Everything set to middle, like last year
Performance, optimum: no idea
Sports: Between Dynamic and standard
Movie, user: Warm color and middle gamma, everything else lowest setting, maybe 2 for enhancer mode

Service menu will presumably be able to alter anything for these modes fairly easily, so hopefully these settings are technically not gone, just hiding. Calibration is key, of course.

All of this is just my speculation, I'm probably wrong on some of it. But overall I'm not too worried at this point since most of that stuff was useless if you set it to the right picture mode. Robert/D-nice will have the official word.It wasn't because of the ethernet port being added........

Golden rule of business: NEVER give your customer a feature and then take it away at a later date.

It seems as if Pioneer NA had a focus group regarding the non-Elite (probably the same dumbasses that Consumer Reports uses). Out of said focus group, a "grip" with the 8G non-Elites was that it had too many picture setting controls for the average user.

So Pioneer NA decided to create a simplified A/V menu (similar to pre-Kuro). The items listed as "No menu items for these functions" were considered "least user friendly". So, each A/V picture mode will have these features turned on in some fashion. Here is how they will be setup:


A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 1 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On

The NR features are on for every A/V mode. Optimum mode changes these settings depending on what the light/color sensor detects. Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.

The NR features are on for every A/V mode. Optimum mode changes these settings depending on what the light/color sensor detects. Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.

Ouch :mad:

Thanks for nice chart. Just made my pre-order decision that much tougher. Why couldn't Pioneer just given two menu systems -- "Savvy User", "Average User"?

Pioneer needs to be smart about this if they want to be profitable.

On the one hand, you do want products to be enough different so that customers have enough reason to go to the elite models.

On the other hand, if the difference comes with too much of a dollar difference, people may just choose to go with another manufacturer.

It wasn't because of the ethernet port being added........

Golden rule of business: NEVER give your customer a feature and then take it away at a later date.

It seems as if Pioneer NA had a focus group regarding the non-Elite (probably the same dumbasses that Consumer Reports uses). Out of said focus group, a "grip" with the 8G non-Elites was that it had too many picture setting controls for the average user.

So Pioneer NA decided to create a simplified A/V menu (similar to pre-Kuro). The items listed as "No menu items for these functions" were considered "least user friendly". So, each A/V picture mode will have these features turned on in some fashion. Here is how they will be setup:


A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 1 ---------- 2 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On

The NR features are on for every A/V mode. Optimum mode changes these settings depending on what the light/color sensor detects. Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.

Wow! This should swing many people over to the Elites. I mean not being able to do something as simple as turn off DRE when you want to...dumb dumb dumb. :rolleyes:

A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 1 ---------- 2 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On

The NR features are on for every A/V mode. Optimum mode changes these settings depending on what the light/color sensor detects. Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.


D-Nice, how big of a deal do you think this is for those of us interested in the 5020/6020? I looked back at your settings for the 5080, and the "Game" setting above looks almost identical to what you had recommended for the last generation, with the exception of NR not being capable of being turned off.

It seems like there is a fairly good mix of settings in the included A/V options. I'm assuming we can still adjust contrast, brightness, color, etc. Isn't getting those settings correct (and to the individual user's liking) more important?

I understand this is probably a disappointment for those comparing the 5020/6020 to the Elite/Signature series, but what about the rest of us that think ACL is something in your knee? Is this really a deal breaker? I'm upgrading from a 27" Sony myself.

Most users wouldn't even know the difference that the menu items weren't there. AVS members are probably 1%-5% of the buying public and even here we are harping on pricing and cost. Look at the Panny/Pio thread. The difference is on the AVS forum, members want the Elite for the Panny price. Out side of the AVS forum, everyone else just wants the Vizio price.



Pioneer needs to be smart about this if they want to be profitable.

On the one hand, you do want products to be enough different so that customers have enough reason to go to the elite models.

On the other hand, if the difference comes with too much of a dollar difference, people may just choose to go with another manufacturer.

D-Nice, how big of a deal do you think this is for those of us interested in the 5020/6020? I looked back at your settings for the 5080, and the "Game" setting above looks almost identical to what you had recommended for the last generation, with the exception of NR not being capable of being turned off.

It seems like there is a fairly good mix of settings in the included A/V options. I'm assuming we can still adjust contrast, brightness, color, etc. Isn't getting those settings correct (and to the individual user's liking) more important?

I understand this is probably a disappointment for those comparing the 5020/6020 to the Elite/Signature series, but what about the rest of us that think ACL is something in your knee? Is this really a deal breaker?I'm not sure on how impactful these hardcoded settings will be. If I use 6 and 7G non-Elite owners as a reference, they really didn't seem to mind not having access to these features. This will be one area I'm going to thoroughly test when I get my hands on a non-Elite and Elite 9G.

It may swing some avs members, but in general I don't think so.

Wow! This should swing many people over to the Elites. I mean not being able to do something as simple as turn off DRE when you want to...dumb dumb dumb. :rolleyes:

I suspect software will be included with the 9Gs for installation on networked PCs. Correct?

No. You just need a DLNA-capable server on your PC. Windows Media Player (10 or higher, I think with Windows Media Connect) has this feature, and there are others - TVersity and TwonkyMedia are among the few I've tried. My results using my PS3 as the client have been mostly disappointing, no experience with Pioneer's Kuro implementation...yet. Google "DLNA server" for more info.

It may swing some avs members, but in general I don't think so.

Can someone (Robert?) reconstruct or review from a consumer standpoint the $1000 value difference in 9G Elites versus 9G non-elites? Are the PIP features any different? Pure mode is still Elite-only right? Is this something non-elite users will miss? Will it affect judder/3:3 playback? Are there any substantive PQ differences beween the two? Does anyone think it's better to go with a 111FD for Elite 'features/difference' than a 6020 for the size?

So far all I see is side speakers, advanced ISF calibration, uncrippled Menu/picture settings, Pure mode, better graded glass selection, and having the word ELITE on your Plasma TV.

Golden rule of business: NEVER give your customer a feature and then take it away at a later date.

A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 1 ---------- 2 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On


Thanks D-Nice for the answer! I was about to pull the trigger on a 6020 until I saw the "no menu settings" on the spec sheet. Now I am glad I didn't. Pioneer has broken the golden rule. I can understand that they want to improve the user experience for the average users. That can be done by improving the UI, NOT taking features out all together. This is simply ridiculous.

I cannot believe Pioneer is taking these important user adjustments out of the 4,000 Dollar Kuro 5020 and 6,000 dollar 6020 units. It's not like a non Elite unit is a cheap generic unit, we are talking 4,000+dollars here. There is no way on Earth I will spend a extra 1 thousand dollars to get these menu items.

Now the question is, based on this information do we cancel 5020 and 6020's and move to a Panasonic 800 or comparable that offers more user adjustments?

Listen I would love to be able to spend the 5,000 plus dollars on the Elite unit, but 4,000 is already way beyond what I wanted to spend and to have crucial features removed seems like a big slap in the face and a good reason to have to choose a competing product. I wish it was not so, really I do.


:mad::confused::(

It seems as if Pioneer NA had a focus group regarding the non-Elite (probably the same dumbasses that Consumer Reports uses). Out of said focus group, a "grip" with the 8G non-Elites was that it had too many picture setting controls for the average user.

Half of the problem is that the Owner's Manual and on-screen option descriptions are so bare-boned as to totally confuse the unsophisticated user. For example, DRE is described as follows in the Owner's Manual: "Emphasizes the contrast on images so that the difference between brightness and darkness becomes more distinct." Hey, that sounds good, right? I'd better set it on High! It's not until you land here and start getting into benefits/drawbacks analysis that the owner can develop any real sense of the impacts these features can and do have on picture quality.


Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.

Since the owner theoretically isn't supposed to be going in there at all, I guess from Pioneer's perspective there's some basis for doing that. But what about the limitations this decision imposes upon the professional calibrator?

I have to say I think they choked big-time on this one. While I'm not saying that my 5080 can provide a better picture - or even one as good as - the new 5020, it's already won the battle of adjustability in a rout. For that reason alone I'm glad I bought an 8G.

That said, I certainly wouldn't see this as a big enough reason to cancel a non-Elite 9G order. Non-Elite 9G buyers will still be getting one hell of a display.

Now the question is, based on this information do we cancel 5020 and 6020's and move to a Panasonic 800 or comparable that offers more user adjustments?Why would you do that? The non-Elites STILL offer more user adjustments compared to the 800u.

Thanks D-Nice for posting the genesis of the new approach to the settings for the non-Elite 9Gs.

Having done design & usability testing for software products, the golden rule is "know thy user".

Hopefully Pioneer has an accurate profile of their target user for the non-Elite line and used it to recruit for their focus groups. Even though I am an informed Pio/Kuro user, I'm by no means an expert user and may not even fit the target user profile.

I am still confused by the effects of settings such as ACL, Black Level, Enhancer, CTI. I assume they are there because they are important to picture quality. So, I like that they are available to me for the day when I want to dig in and learn a bit more. I bought the Kuro Elite to get the best picture quality.

I use D-Nice's settings and like that he has done the vetting for me. Looks like Pioneer is taking the same approach for the non-Elites. Most users don't want to be bothered. Look at how many of us rely on D-Nice. User's want products to do the thinking for them.

Robert, other than not having the improved black level of the 9g, can the 8G 6010 take the same full advantage of the new, soon to be released Elite BD player's special Kuro PDP output mode?

Yes sir. I very strongly recommend Pioneer's 51FD with the PDP-6010FD.

-Robert

I had planned on purchasing a Panasonic TH-58PZ750U, then elected to wait for the yet-to-be released THX-Certified TH-58PZ800U. But after perusing this thread, other threads, and thorough research, I reconciled to a Pioneer PDP-6020FD. I ultimately concluded that the marginal increase in price can be justified by averaging it over the display's anticipated lifespan and the significant increase in video quality.


If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay for the 6020? Not that I'm in the market for one (I was for the 5020, but not anymore), but it seems that the Kuros have always bees significantly more expensive than the Panasonics, I don't think from a 58PZ800U to a 6020 would be a "marginal increase." Panasonics have always sold a lot lower than their retail price, Pioneer not so much.

Why would you do that? The non-Elites STILL offer more user adjustments compared to the 800u.

Well I thought that the 800 allowed a user or ISF calibrater's either via the standard menus or the Service menus to access the neccessary features to make picture changes etc.

Seems like from the analysis regarding the 5020 and 6020's being hard set on certain settings with no user or Service Menu control that it would be limited in picture changing ability. I so badly was hoping to finally get a Kuro but it still is not cheap even though the newer MSRP is nice, as a consumer buying a Rolls Royce (even if it is the mid level Rolls)I still want the ability for my Calibrator or myself to access the basic important functions of the set.

Perhaps I am totally confused and I am making a big deal out of nothing, I hope I am but the way I am reading your post describing these hard set changes with no way to change them via Service Menu. But please enlighten me.
:confused:

If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay for the 6020? Not that I'm in the market for one (I was for the 5020, but not anymore), but it seems that the Kuros have always bees significantly more expensive than the Panasonics, I don't think from a 58PZ800U to a 6020 would be a "marginal increase." Panasonics have always sold a lot lower than their retail price, Pioneer not so much.20-30% off of MSRP (Pioneer) isn't much?

You will never see a current model Pioneer for the same price as a Panasonic. They are each targeting a different conusrmer group. Simply put:

- If one values money more than PQ, get a Panasonic. If one values PQ over money, get a Pioneer.

As I mentioned above, I was considering the 5020, as later this year I may buy my first big-screen TV (waiting for long). But I can't believe the picture settings. Let me get this straight. Are you guys saying that the only way to adjust picture settings is via the presets? I assume at least there are good-old R, G and B sliders right? But no individual DRE switch, and the other stuff? You cannot turn off noise reduction AT ALL? Not even in the service menu?

Is this right what I am reading? A $4000 plasma TV? I just can't believe it. I think my 13-inch Sony CRT has more settings than this.

Golden rule of business: NEVER give your customer a feature and then take it away at a later date.

It seems as if Pioneer NA had a focus group regarding the non-Elite (probably the same dumbasses that Consumer Reports uses). Out of said focus group, a "grip" with the 8G non-Elites was that it had too many picture setting controls for the average user.

So Pioneer NA decided to create a simplified A/V menu (similar to pre-Kuro). The items listed as "No menu items for these functions" were considered "least user friendly". So, each A/V picture mode will have these features turned on in some fashion. Here is how they will be setup:


A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 1 ---------- 2 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On

The NR features are on for every A/V mode. Optimum mode changes these settings depending on what the light/color sensor detects. Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.

If it was truly an issue of confusion for the end user, the sensible thing here for Pioneer would have been to go this route with a 7th A/V mode called User or Custom where one could select/change each sub-selection of the A/V mode. Then the 95-98% of the confused out there could go with the pre-defined A/V modes while those of us who prefer the best combination could set it up. Taking away any customization still feels like an elite/non-elite differentiator more than just simplifying things for the masses.

Well I thought that the 800 allowed a user or ISF calibrater's either via the standard menus or the Service menus to access the neccessary features to make picture changes etc. RGB settings are also located in the non-Elite's SM.

Seems like from the analysis regarding the 5020 and 6020's being hard set on certain settings with no user or Service Menu control that it would be limited in picture changing ability.I disagree. The best mode on the non-Elites will probable be Moive mode.....just like Cinema/THX mode is best on the 11G Panasonics.

I so badly was hoping to finally get a Kuro but it still is not cheap even though the newer MSRP is nice, as a consumer buying a Rolls Royce (even if it is the mid level Rolls)I still want the ability for my Calibrator or myself to access the basic important functions of the set.Per the focus group, these settings were most cumbersom. If you want to get you set calibrated, you really need to get an Elite anyway :)

Perhaps I am totally confused and I am making a big deal out of nothing, I hope I am but the way I am reading your post describing this hard set changes I don't think I am.
:confused:I disagree with Pioneer removing something that was available in the previous generation. Other than that, I'm personally not going to pass judgement on the non-Elites until I see how they perform.

20-30% off of MSRP (Pioneer) isn't much?

You will never see a current model Pioneer for the same price as a Panasonic. They are each targeting a different conusrmer group. Simply put:

- If one values money more than PQ, get a Panasonic. If one values PQ over money, get a Pioneer.

I wasn't really dissing Pioneer on the price. I did consider a 5020. I probably misspoke, so I'm sorry. I do see that the Pioneers are discounted as well. My point was that it seems to me that from a 58PZ800U to a 6020 there would be a lot of difference, that was what I was driving at.

RGB settings are also located in the non-Elite's SM.

I disagree. The best mode on the non-Elites will probable be Moive mode.....just like Cinema/THX mode is best on the 11G Panasonics.

Per the focus group, these settings were most cumbersom. If you want to get you set calibrated, you really need to get an Elite anyway :)

I disagree with Pioneer removing something that was available in the previous generation. Other than that, I'm personally not going to pass judgement on the non-Elites until I see how they perform.


D-Nice, Thanks for the input. Believe me I would love to have the extra couple grand to get a Elite, it just is not possible I am already pushing it pretty far for a 5020 as is.

Was hoping that a 5020 with a ISF calibration will still yield a fantastic picture beyond what is available with a Panasonic 800 with ISF cal. If not then obviously will sit the Kuro out this round, save my money and maybe when 10g comes around, they'll be enough in the bank will for a Elite.

If you still think out of the box settings for a 5020 is still better then anything from any other manufacturer (minus of course the Elites) then I will go with that. Obviously its hard to say before looking at it personally but we could have guesses based on options.

Thanks again for all your assistance and support. It is greatly appreciated.

As I mentioned above, I was considering the 5020, as later this year I may buy my first big-screen TV (waiting for long). But I can't believe the picture settings. Let me get this straight. Are you guys saying that the only way to adjust picture settings is via the presets? I assume at least there are good-old R, G and B sliders right? But no individual DRE switch, and the other stuff? You cannot turn off noise reduction AT ALL? Not even in the service menu?

Is this right what I am reading? A $4000 plasma TV? I just can't believe it. I think my 13-inch Sony CRT has more settings than this.The cut sheets on the first page of this thread detail the available "User Menu" picture controls.

Just as a quick question, will you still be able to change those "presets" via the service menu?

Just as a quick question, will you still be able to change those "presets" via the service menu?Change what presets?

Per the focus group, these settings were most cumbersom. If you want to get you set calibrated, you really need to get an Elite anyway :)



Is it possible these settings could be "re-activated" in the future by means of a software update via the ethernet port?

Golden rule of business: NEVER give your customer a feature and then take it away at a later date.

Out of said focus group, a "grip" with the 8G non-Elites was that it had too many picture setting controls for the average user.

So Pioneer NA decided to create a simplified A/V menu ...

Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.

STUNNING. Almost unbelieveable. After all the arguments about DRE and Gamma, we are now left to believe they really weren't that important? Try to put as good a face as you can, but this is a horrendous decision. And then to leave it out of the service menu. Ugggggh.

The swoosh you heard was the rush out the door to buy a 5010 or 6010 if you can find it.

Is it possible these settings could be "re-activated" in the future by means of a software update via the ethernet port?
No

Change what presets?

A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 1 ---------- 2 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On

These settings, I am just wondering if it would be possible to augement them via the service menu, or are they as is and you can't do anything about them?

But what about the limitations this decision imposes upon the professional calibrator?



Would be interesting to get UMRs take on this ...

A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 1 ---------- 2 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On

These settings, I am just wondering if it would be possible to augement them via the service menu, or are they as is and you can't do anything about them?
They are hardcoded and cannot be changed per the SM.

I think Pioneer instead should license D-Nice and animate/import him into the settings software. That would make the obscure settings more usable.

:D

Would be interesting to get UMRs take on this ...

If you cant user control DRE, gamma, CTI, ect.... I'm pretty sure Jeff is gonna be put off by this, neverless he will still calibrate them. The Pioneer's contrast and processing alone make them worth calibrating. Not to mention the non elites still have very good grayscale tracking.

Would be interesting to get UMRs take on this ...IF Pioneer uses the same gamma profiles as they did on the 8Gs, gamma would be the most crucial of the hardcoded picture settings.

For whatever reason, people seem to love DRE, CTI visually does nothing to the picture, Enhancer should always be set to 2, Black Level can be compensated for per the brightness control, and ACL has little impact on normal viewing.

NR features....I personally do not use them, however, others seem to turn them on anyway. Depending on what level Pioneer has hardcoded these items, I don't think they will be a big deal.

Most users wouldn't even know the difference that the menu items weren't there. AVS members are probably 1%-5% of the buying public and even here we are harping on pricing and cost. Look at the Panny/Pio thread. The difference is on the AVS forum, members want the Elite for the Panny price. Out side of the AVS forum, everyone else just wants the Vizio price.

Maybe. But is this (loss of controls in Non-Elite panels) the start of the dumbing down of the Pioneers? And can we expect more of the same with the looming Panny glass - with the best features we love only available in the highest top-of-the-line product. Not exactly the trend most of us hoped to see.

Can someone (Robert?) reconstruct or review from a consumer standpoint the $1000 value difference in 9G Elites versus 9G non-elites? Are the PIP features any different? Pure mode is still Elite-only right? Is this something non-elite users will miss? Will it affect judder/3:3 playback? Are there any substantive PQ differences beween the two? Does anyone think it's better to go with a 111FD for Elite 'features/difference' than a 6020 for the size?

So far all I see is side speakers, advanced ISF calibration, uncrippled Menu/picture settings, Pure mode, better graded glass selection, and having the word ELITE on your Plasma TV.

Bump.. I would also apprecite it if somebody could break this down in terms of PQ (non Elite vrs Elite).

Maybe. But is this (loss of controls in Non-Elite panels) the start of the dumbing down of the Pioneers? And can we expect more of the same with the looming Panny glass - with the best features we love only available in the highest top-of-the-line product. Not exactly the trend most of us hoped to see.

My thoughts exactly. Too bad we were given this treatment during the "last hurrah" phase.

Sorry for this off topic post :o We are having email issues should be fixed shortly. Thank you.

Sorry for this off topic post :o We are having email issues should be fixed shortly. Thank you.

You can do penance by answering questions about the 9G Elite vs Non Elite ;)

It wasn't because of the ethernet port being added........

Golden rule of business: NEVER give your customer a feature and then take it away at a later date.

It seems as if Pioneer NA had a focus group regarding the non-Elite (probably the same dumbasses that Consumer Reports uses). Out of said focus group, a "grip" with the 8G non-Elites was that it had too many picture setting controls for the average user.

So Pioneer NA decided to create a simplified A/V menu (similar to pre-Kuro). The items listed as "No menu items for these functions" were considered "least user friendly". So, each A/V picture mode will have these features turned on in some fashion. Here is how they will be setup:


A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 1 ---------- 2 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On

The NR features are on for every A/V mode. Optimum mode changes these settings depending on what the light/color sensor detects. Also, there is no way in the SM to adjust these features.



Sorry, late to the party.
This is a shame - imo.
Looks like I definitely have to save enough for a 111 now instead of possibly going with a 5020. I wanted an elite anyway, but the price is an obstacle....but they seem to have made my mind up for me.
Considering they set out to make the best PDP's and accomplished that, you'd think they wouldn't "dumb down" for Joe6pack.

Damn!
I wonder......Excluding the Elite, is the 5020 still going to be the best 50" plasma on the market, post-calibration included?
Any speculations?

You can do penance by answering questions about the 9G Elite vs Non Elite ;)

Some questions are better answered by D-NICE ;) I try to stay neutral and not push people one way or another but you can always contact me for my opinions :)

Damn!
I wonder......Excluding the Elite, is the 5020 still going to be the best 50" plasma on the market, post-calibration included?
Any speculations?

I don't see how it couldn't be.

Damn!
I wonder......Excluding the Elite, is the 5020 still going to be the best 50" plasma on the market, post-calibration included?
Any speculations?

Thats the million dollar question. Hopefully after we get to the bottom of this whole "dumbed down" 5020 user menu deal we will know. Of course final judgment cannot be made until someone gets there hands on one.

Thanks D-Nice for clearing everything up!

I totally disagree with what Pioneer is doing, but many of those settings aren't
even available on a normal TV anyhow, so the average joe won't notice. I
think AVS'ers have to realize the menu on the 8G is quite beefy and pretty
intimidating at first. In fact, if folks don't spend the time to read the manual
(let's face it, many folks don't), then they can get frustrated trying to mess
with certain controls. I remember last year that I had a hard time figuring out
the controls on Pioneer TVs. Depending on what you do with them, you can
get a completely different picture. Now, if you don't know what you're doing,
you can really mess things up. Still, there was always the option to return to
default. Sigh, I don't understand why things can't be changed in the SM.

It's a shame Pioneer didn't leave at least a 'pure' or 'user' mode with the
option to adjust stuff like DRE, Gamma, and enhancer mode. I mean, setting
ehnancer to 3, for me, is *GOLDEN* for SD material!

Anyhow, D-Nice gave me the impression that next year there will not be a
distinction between elite/non-elite anymore. Looking forward, I think this
will be a good thing (so long as the price is reasonable). For the AVS'ers who
never owned a Pioneer, I wouldn't worry because the settings they set for the
modes look pretty okay. Further, once I set these 'advanced' setttings on my
TV right now, I don't change them.

Amazingly this was posted on 4-23-08 by Peejay in the Pioneer 6020 vs 150FD vs 151FD thread ....

"My Pioneer rep ...

... said that the Picture settings and user adjust ability on the non-elites is going to be stripped down more when compared to this years models, whereas the Elites are going to have a lot more "tweakablity" than the non-elites. This is the way the Elites and non-Elites are now, but apparently there will be an even bigger difference next year."

Nice catch by Peejay. Besides some follow-up questions by Geordan and Nambit in that thread, the rest of us must have been sleepwalking. To think of all the off-topic conversation that has gone on in this thread (2250 posts) while something as important as this has gone unrecognized right under our noses.

Anyhow, D-Nice gave me the impression that next year there will not be a
distinction between elite/non-elite anymore.

And the second step in the dumbing down of the Pioneers ... elimination of the Non-Elites entirely ???? I don't like this progression. I think all of us hoped that the best features of Pioneer would work their way into some of the plasma technology in general (via Panosonic). More technology at affordable prices.

Instead we have the lower end Pio product shedding customizable features and possibly becoming more like a Panny (with the glass change) while all of the high end improvements are going into the Elite line and Signature lines. Unfortunately this is likely to spread the cost gap even more and make the remaining Pioneer product even more of a 'niche' product. And even more susceptible to a business decison for elimination due to low volumes. I hope I am dead wrong but the early trendline is not good

Amazingly this was posted on 4-23-08 by Peejay in the Pioneer 6020 vs 150FD vs 151FD thread ....

"My Pioneer rep ...

... said that the Picture settings and user adjust ability on the non-elites is going to be stripped down more when compared to this years models, whereas the Elites are going to have a lot more "tweakablity" than the non-elites. This is the way the Elites and non-Elites are now, but apparently there will be an even bigger difference next year."

Nice catch by Peejay. Besides some follow-up questions by Geordan and Nambit in that thread, the rest of us must have been sleepwalking. To think of all the off-topic conversation that has gone on in this thread (2250 posts) while something as important as this has gone unrecognized right under our noses.

Good point, Had we paid closer attention to this perhaps more dealers could have brought up there concerns at the "road shows" etc.

Obviously the elite is the best but the standard Kuros are still supposed to be considered higher end sets, the cream of the crop, better then competitions! Don't dumb it down! Even if most users wont access the settings it is still going to be a talking point at the retail outlets. Remember numbers and statistics sell products, even if those numbers do not really make that big of a difference, think about the gigahertz PC wars. 4.1 ghz, 4.3ghz etc., or backside cache, (remember that one! :) etc.

Lame excuse by Pioneer. You have companies like Samsung giving you every setting under the sun to adjust and here they're taking away for the "sake of the consumer." Total BS.

The truth is they're trying to spread the gap between their regular series and Elite lineup.

And the second step in the dumbing down of the Pioneers ... elimination of the Non-Elites entirely ???? I don't like this progression.

I'm not sure about now, but a few years back, the top-of-the-line Sony XBR's also possessed a number of adjustments & features that were not found on their non-XBR counterparts. It's up to the individual to determine if the price difference is worth it to buy the Elite. But in my mind, it's a no-brainer, especially when you consider the life of the TV and spread out the additional cost of the Elite over the years of ownership. That's many years down the road as I don't ever sell my TV's, rather I'll move them to another room when I upgrade my main viewer, or I'll donate them to a charity.

But in my mind, it's a no-brainer, especially when you consider the life of the TV and spread out the additional cost of the Elite over the years of ownership.

While I totally agree with this (and I'll probably have this TV for the next 10 years), unfortunately that's how I justified spending more then I wanted for the 6020 I have on pre-order. There's just no way I can justify or afford another bump up to the Elite.

I'm hoping that even without these settings, the 6020 will still be better then anything else non-elite out there and also better then the 6010. I decided I'm going to roll the dice and not cancel my pre-order. It's more then a little frustrating though that after months of reading these forums, finally making a concrete decision, saving up and even selling some things on Ebay, then patiently waiting for the 9G to be released that there's doubt in my mind again.

New Deeper Intense Blacks for Unmatched Contrast (5x Previous Generation)how can this be possible? This seems to have become a "cliche".........