Hello Everyone,

We have a 2003 27" FST Toshiba 27AF43 TV with:


Component, S-video, & composite video inputs
480i interlaced resolution
3-line digital comb filter
4:3 & 16:9 modes
Analog tuner
This set is connected to a Channel Master Quantum antenna currently located in the attic. (I may move it to the roof with a rotor.) Currently, neither the component or S-video inputs are being utilized.

We are considering two possibilities for OTA DTV reception:


Channel Master D2A CM-7000: S-video out
Tivax STB-T1 ATSC QAM digital TV Tuner: 480i component out

I've also read about the Samsung DTB-H260F ATSC HDTV tuner: $170 & probably more than we need for this SD TV.

1.) I'm wondering if the Tivax STB-T1, because of its 480i component out, would provide noticeably better image quality than the s-video equipped CM-7000?

2.) I never heard of Tivax. How is their reception quality?

3.) Is there another model similar to to the Tivax STB-T1 that we should also consider for this application?

(I'm aware the CECB program specifically excludes models that have anything other than RF, composite, or S-video outputs.)

Thanks!

We have a 2003 27" FST Toshiba 27AF43 TV with:


Component, S-video, & composite video inputs

Currently, neither the component or S-video inputs are being utilized.

We are considering two possibilities for OTA DTV reception:

[LIST]
Channel Master D2A CM-7000: S-video out
Tivax STB-T1 ATSC QAM digital TV Tuner: 480i component out

I've also read about the Samsung DTB-H260F ATSC HDTV tuner: $170 & probably more than we need for this SD TV.


Maybe so, but by using the component outs, the Samsung will have an edge in PQ, even with your SDTV. I own a Samsung 260, and for watching 16:9 programs, I prefer it over my CECB (an Insignia). My TV (a Sony SD 27" WEGA) is similar to yours in terms of inputs.
I cannot comment on either of the CECBs you've mentioned, but I can say that the 260 has a better program guide then any currently available CECB.
Another advantage of the 260 is that you can utilize an unused input on your TV, leaving the rest free for other items, like a second tuner, DVD player, etc.

In regards to S-Video vs Composite - I cannot see a difference in PQ on my TV when I hook up my DVD player using those methods. Probably depends on your TV more than anything.

The Tivax STB-T1 is not a CECB. As you know, it doesn't qualify because, among other things, it has component video and digital audio outputs. Yes, you will see better quality using component video. S-video is little more than upscale composite video. Also, unlike any of the CECB's, you will be able to take advantage of the Dolby 5.1 signal that's encoded into DTV.

I don't know much about the Tivax yet but I will soon enough as I have one on order. In the meantime, there are huge threads on the STB-T9 and CM-7000 CECB's if you want to wade through them.

Maybe so, but by using the component outs, the Samsung will have an edge in PQ, even with your SDTV. I own a Samsung 260, and for watching 16:9 programs, I prefer it over my CECB (an Insignia). My TV (a Sony SD 27" WEGA) is similar to yours in terms of inputs.
I cannot comment on either of the CECBs you've mentioned, ...
Thanks for sharing your experience with the Samsung 260 VS the Insignia on a TV similar to ours.
Note:

Of the 3 models I mentioned, only the CM-700 is a CECB. The Tivax STB-T1 is an external SD (not HD) tuner.
Like the Samsung 260, the Tivax STB-T1 also has component outs.

You indicate that PQ should be improved due to component output (Samsung 260 VS the Insignia). A component VS composite comparison I assume? From what I've read, the Insignia doesn't have S-video.

Hi Don,

Yes I'm aware the Tivax STB-T1 is not a CECB. The reason I posted this question in the CECB sub-forum is because I want to compare the video performance of the CM-7000 CECB (S-Video) VS Tivax STB-T1 (Component).

You make a good point - The STB-T1 definitely has the edge for those who want to take advantage of the Dolby 5.1 signal.

I look forward to reading about your experience with the Tivax STB-T1 you've ordered. When is it supposed to arrive?

Why not grab a Hisense DB2010 tuner from ebay for $30-80 (depends on whether brand new or not). It has Component (480p to 1080i), S-video, Compsite video and digital optical out and a very good EPG (with program description, storyline etc)?

Here's a link to a thread Don started and I posted on as well. I believe Don's hoping for his T1 this weekend and I was told mid next week for the LX1000. I don't know a lot about the LX1000 yet, but should know much more by next weekend. My Sony is also SD and has component inputs too. I will be using the S-video out to run to a DVDR and am hoping to get better PQ than the standard composite CECB.
I had the Sammy 260 for a while and did notice better PQ via it's S-out vs. a CECB, but had second thoughts on it's $170 price. I also didn't like that it didn't have a display. Looks like both the Tivax units come with a display, just not their CECB, T9.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1026209

Hi ota.dt.man,

Generally speaking, I think you get a better picture using component over s-video. Even though both bypass the comb filter, I think the second chrominance signal makes a difference. Maybe it's my imagination.

If the CM-7000 had digital audio, I could easily live with the s-video but it's not worth the little bit of savings to give up the sound quality. I'll probably order in a CM for the bedroom TV if nothing better shows up before my coupons expire.

I should have the Tivax by the weekend. Even though it's not a CECB, I'll post a review in this forum in case others may be looking for non-crippleware.

Why not grab a Hisense DB2010 tuner from ebay for $30-80 (depends on whether brand new or not). It has Component (480p to 1080i), S-video, Compsite video and digital optical out and a very good EPG (with program description, storyline etc)?

Wow, that looks like a very good option too.

Hi, kousikb,
Thanks for suggesting the Hisense DB2010 tuner.
It has Component (480p to 1080i), ...Does it also provide 480i?

Hi Jeff,
Yes, I saw your thread. It was one of the reasons I started this thread. It will be interesting to hear how your new Tivax works with your 480i component input Sony.

I had the Sammy 260 for a while and did notice better PQ via it's S-out vs. a CECB, but had second thoughts on it's $170 price. I also didn't like that it didn't have a display. Looks like both the Tivax units come with a display, just not their CECB, T9.
Did you try the 260's component out? Thanks

Hi ota.dt.man,

Generally speaking, I think you get a better picture using component over s-video. Even though both bypass the comb filter, I think the second chrominance signal makes a difference. Maybe it's my imagination.

If the CM-7000 had digital audio, I could easily live with the s-video but it's not worth the little bit of savings to give up the sound quality. I'll probably order in a CM for the bedroom TV if nothing better shows up before my coupons expire.

I should have the Tivax by the weekend. Even though it's not a CECB, I'll post a review in this forum in case others may be looking for non-crippleware.

Component over s-video: That's my understanding also. I just wonder if there will be an obvious PQ difference between the two?

I share your interest in "non-crippleware" and look forward to hearing about your Tivax also.

Since you have component inputs, I would get the Samsung H260F. You can find it for a lot less on ebay around the $60.00 range and possibly an open box item at Best Buy for $99 or less, like I did.

Thanks for the BB open box suggestion! However, when I checked out the reviews on their web site I found the following:

"Its biggest drawback is that when you lock in the channels in one direction. It will lose them when you turn the antenna to lock in stations from a different direction. It was designed to work with an antenna but does not work with an antenna in this respect. The Manufacturers website and the book that came with it says that you can later add a channel or delete a channel. It is not possible to do either even when the instructions in the book are followed." Is this info accurate in your experience?

Did you try the 260's component out? Thanks
Yes I did. The Sammy is not very handy unless you have a display with component inputs since it only displays On screen information to the Component or HDMI output. I used the S-video to feed my DVDR. Truthfully I couldn't tell a lot of difference on my 24" SD Sony Wega between the S-video and component, but on my 32" HD LCD Panny the component and HDMI outputs looked as good as the HD tuner built into my Panny. Much better than either composite or S-video.
I could however notice a improvement between composite and S-video with the Sony. If you have a larger display you might be able to tell a bigger difference between the S-video and component on your SD TV.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the Samsung 260 VS the Insignia on a TV similar to ours.
Note:

Of the 3 models I mentioned, only the CM-700 is a CECB. The Tivax STB-T1 is an external SD (not HD) tuner.
Like the Samsung 260, the Tivax STB-T1 also has component outs.

You indicate that PQ should be improved due to component output (Samsung 260 VS the Insignia). A component VS composite comparison I assume? From what I've read, the Insignia doesn't have S-video.

Component is better than composite, but the comparison between the 260 and the Insignia is as much about receiver quality, not just the outputs.

To do a fair comparison of outputs, I'd have to use a machine that has all types of outputs and see which works best. My DVD player has all three (S-video, Component and Composite) and with it I've found that the Component looks best, and the composite and S-video are about the same.

Hi, kousikb,
Thanks for suggesting the Hisense DB2010 tuner.
Does it also provide 480i?
It indeed provides 480i over component, s-video and RCA Composite video. Also as n4yqt mentioned, if you can get the Samsung DTB260F for < $99, it's a better option, because it also has HDMI (I think) and QAM tuner too and I guess has a scheduler too. I don't have the DTB260F. I bought my Hisense DB2010 from the same person marsman (and I guess most of the avs'ers too got it from him) for about $50 one year back. The picture quality is really good.. and the OTA recording using the s-video output is near DVD like. I don't have a component input in my DVD recorder, else it would have been DVD quality totally. You can add channels without erasing the present channel list and it also has signal strength meter OSD and other nice goodies.
You can also view the hisense tuner sitting below my Sammy DVD recorder in my OTA setup picture in my signature.

Hi Whidbey,

"Component is better than composite" - Yes, that's what I've read. But I've always wondered if it's an obvious difference.
"... the comparison between the 260 and the Insignia is as much about receiver quality, not just the outputs." Agreed.

To do a fair comparison of outputs, I'd have to use a machine that has all types of outputs and see which works best. (Agreed. Excellent thought!) My DVD player has all three (S-video, Component and Composite) and with it I've found that the Component looks best, and the composite and S-video are about the same. What type and size screen did you use for this comparison? Thanks

kousikb

It sounds like the Hisense DB2010 has many fine qualities:

480i to 1080i
component, s-video and RCA Composite video
digital optical out
picture quality is really good
a very good EPG (with program description, storyline etc)
add channels without erasing the present channel list
signal strength meter
OSD and other nice goodies

And all for about $50!!

Re the Samsung DTB-H260F:

when I checked out the reviews on their web site I found the following:

"Its biggest drawback is that when you lock in the channels in one direction. It will lose them when you turn the antenna to lock in stations from a different direction. It was designed to work with an antenna but does not work with an antenna in this respect. The Manufacturers website and the book that came with it says that you can later add a channel or delete a channel. It is not possible to do either even when the instructions in the book are followed."

Is this info accurate in your experience?

Not completely. Doing a full channel scan does indeed erase the previous channel list. You can add channels individually. However, the instruction book omits a crucial detail. When you want to add an individual channel, you must use the physical channel number that the digital signal is on, not the virtual channel number which matches the station's analog channel number.

For example, my nearest NBC station has its analog signal on channel 4, and of course everybody here knows it by that channel number. Its digital signal is currently on channel 59. If I need to add it individually to my Samsung's channel list, I have to enter "59" not "4". If the unit picks up a usable signal, it extracts the virtual channel number from the data stream, memorizes it, and the on-screen display changes from "59-1" to "4-1". Thereafter, I can tune to it by entering either "4" or "59". I've done this sort of thing many times.

There is a small catch that you have to watch out for. The example I gave above would not work if my Samsung already knew about a virtual channel 59. In that case, entering "59" would simply take me to that channel instead of looking a signal on physical channel 59. I would have to make sure to add my "channel 4" (59) first, and then add this other channel by entering whatever physical channel it's on.

The Hisense box pales in comparison to the Samsung and newer tuners performance-wise, as far as sensitivity and multipath handling go.

Otherwise, it has exceptional PQ and features. I'd even place it up there with the old LG's and Sony's, PQ-wise (better than the H260F, for sure).

I had one briefly, and it wasn't even as sensitive as some of the other 4th generation chipset receivers that I've ever owned. No better than average for that generation, I'd say.

Good tuner, but unless you have a reasonably favorable reception situation to begin with, I probably wouldn't recommend it. It's very outdated, RQ-wise.

Hi Otaguy,

I did A/B comparisons some years back between s-video and component video on a 32" tube. The difference is subtle. Not at all like the huge difference between optical audio and RCA patch cord audio.

There's a good, professional review of the Samsung 260 on the net done by someone like HDTV Magazine where the guy tests reception, etc. It's easy to find by googling. This reviewer doesn't seem to find any of the problems that you find posted by many of the user reviewers who may have been having a bad (under the) hair day. I may have went for the Samsung but I'm boycotting their products due to experience in dealing with them over the last 15 months about one of their "award winning" refrigerators. Samsung definitely doesn't have their act together.

One thing I would wonder about the Hisense unit is the "generation" of it since it's so old. I understand that makes a huge difference in performance.

I don't even know the generation of the Tivax I ordered but I'm hoping it's more modern. I attempted to find out this info from the Tivax tech support but modern tech support people don't know any more about their products than the people asking the questions. Here's what they said in response to my query about the tuner and generation. "The unit uses a off the shelf tuner uses in many devices." Duh! My other questions were equally well answered but I suspected that would be the case before I asked and had already ordered the unit to get my own answers.

Hisense DB2010 may not be the best tuner in the market and may not be as good as the newer 6th gen tuner which has gone through the FCC mandated field tests, but if your reception conditions are equal or better than mine, you can consider it. I use indoor directional amplified antenna (about 10dB gain - Terk HDTVa). I get all the signals which I get in my Olevia LCD tuner and Zenith DTT900. All my signals are 10-20 degree apart and within 35 miles and almost in the same direction. tvfool lists the signal strength as -50dBm to -65dBm. I am in the 2nd floor of the apartment and there are lot of trees surrounding my apartments. I don't get channel 61 (WNET 13.x) owing to low signal level it's at -77dBm. I guess lot of multi path problems can be eliminated if the antenna you are using has a very directional pattern. Check the hdtvprimer.com to find the antenna's directional chart and gains for different channels. I didn't want to spend $170 for a dedicated tuner one year back. Now there are more options like CM-7000 which can be better option for fringe area/multi-path reception and given that it has 6th gen tuner and it's coupon eligible. The point I am trying to make is, if you have favourable condition, you can as well try the cheapo hisense box, with optical digital out. But I'd rather buy a upconversion DVD recorder with digital tuner built in (you can get them refurbished for <$100, philips or samsung) then spending more than $100 on a dedicated tuner.

Re the Samsung DTB-H260F:You can add channels individually. However, the instruction book omits a crucial detail. ...Thanks for the detailed explanation! It's good to know the DTB-H260F doesn't have this limitation.

Now THAT is a great post with some meat in it kousikb. I'm feeling much more comfortable with the digital dBm projections TV Fool gives me for my coordinates. My dBm's will drop down to a range between -38 and -60. Good have some real confirmation it will probably work out well for me. Thanks.

Hi Otaguy,

I did A/B comparisons some years back between s-video and component video on a 32" tube. The difference is subtle. Not at all like the huge difference between optical audio and RCA patch cord audio. ...

Samsung definitely doesn't have their act together.

... "generation" .... I understand that makes a huge difference in performance. ...

I don't even know the generation of the Tivax ...
Thanks for your observations and experience.
- Was the 32" tube SD or HD?
- Samsung's act: Does their customer service issue also apply to their video division?
- It will be interesting to read your observations of the Tivax.
Thanks again

What other criteria should be considered to avoid "crippleware"?

6th-gen tuner chip-set for good fringe reception
Component & S-video out for optimum 480i PQ
Analog & digital audio out
Analog pass through
Add channels without erasing the present channel list
Display menus and CC on both component and S-video outputs
Aspect-ratio adjustment
On-screen guide
Signal strength meter
Good customer service/support

Otaman,

It's a plain ol' SD tube.

Samsung is great if nothing ever breaks. My nearly 3 year old DVDR is still in fine shape.

Samsung is also great after you learn to speak Samsungese. It's all very easy once you learn their language and realize:
(1) nothing they ever tell you will ever happen as they say
(2) 3-5 business days is 4-6 business weeks in Samsungville
(3) the first two times they ship out parts, the parts will be wrong

Thankfully, I'm almost done with them. Three weeks ago they authorized a refund for the purchase price of my 2 year old refrigerator in exchange for never having to deal with me again. I expect to see the check within 4-6 business months.

I didn't want to spend $170 for a dedicated tuner one year back. Now there are more options like CM-7000 which can be better option for fringe area/multi-path reception and given that it has 6th gen tuner and it's coupon eligible.
Hi kousikb,
It sounds like the CM=7000 would be an attractive S-video alternative if the black RCA jack that was supposed to be digital audio out can be enabled ..

Excellent info!
Here's a quick visual analysis:

The 1.65V is the rms voltage of the 3.3V biphase manchester encoded data coming from the chip. This goes to the amp/buffer PNP transistor QD10 whose emitter (and base of QD9) is biased by RD60. QD9 may be a NPN transistor with a buffer cap on its collector (CD28). Its output goes to impedance matching/filter network RD61, 62, and CD29, and is finally AC coupled to the coax output through CD30.
RA7 may be necessary for signal integrity to cut down on ringing, or provide additional pull up or pull down current.

With one of these in hand, I could probably have a working solution in an hour or less.

Fry's has the CM-7000 on sale again, so I went and picked one up. See attached for a closeup view of the digital output circuit.

Missing are 4 resistors, 3 capacitors, and 2 transistors. Using a DMM, I measured +1.65V @ RA7, +5V @ RD60, and +5V @ CD28/QD9. Any theories what the missing component values should be?

@drlava, actually it does support anamorphic widescreen. Simply hit the "Wide" button on the remote to select the "Full" picture setting.

See also the thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13500197&highlight=digital+audio#post13500197):

Do any of the big box stores carry the cm-7000 or is it only available online ?
Thanks in advance
Owenf

What type and size screen did you use for this comparison? Thanks

I used a 27" Sony Wega. Like one of the above posters said, the difference was subtle. However, it is enough to make me prefer the 260 over my Insignia. I suppose if the difference is visible on a 27" TV, it would only become more obvious with a bigger screen.

In hindsight however, if the Insignia was available at the time I bought the Samsung, I doubt I would have justified the >$100 price difference. The difference in PQ on an SDTV isn't worth that.

Do any of the big box stores carry the cm-7000 or is it only available online ?
Thanks in advance
Owenf
It's not at the big box stores. I've only seen it on online sources.

Do any of the big box stores carry the cm-7000 or is it only available online ?

Are those the only choices for buying stuff out in "bucks county"?
In the big cities, there are also some smaller retail chains like Fry's Electronics that sell the CM-7000.

Regards

Fry's isn't participating in the coupons program though, remember.

I recently found the following thread.

New & Improved! The Official AVS HDTV STB Synopsis - Winter 2008! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095)

Over The Air DTV/HDTV/Cable Clear QAM

Available Now: (and < $220)

Samsung DTB-H260F $179 ATSC, Clear QAM
Tivax LX1000 $90 ATSC
PrimeDTV PHD-205 $149 ATSC, Clear QAM, NTSC
Pro-Brand / Digital Stream HD3150 $199
Winegard RC-1010 $190 ATSC
Digital Stream HD 5150 $219 ATSC
Coby DTV-140 $139 ATSC (Clear QAM?)


Are any of these other external tuners a popular choice (like the Samsung & Tivax we've been discussing) among AVS forum members?
Which of these tuners have the same generation tuner chip-set as the Samsung?
Channel Master does not offer external tuners, only a CECB - the CM-7000. Channel Master's most similar competitor is Winegard - another antenna manufacturer. Has anyone had any experience with the Winegard RC-1010?

How does the Zinwell ZAT-500HD compare to the Tivax LX1000?

Never heard of the Zinwell, and I couldn't find any reviews on the LX1000. My LX should be coming next week. I'll post my findings here on AVS.

The CM-7000 does have S-video out. However, it doesn't have analog pass-through and becaust it is a CECB, it doesn't have Digital audio out.

The Samsung 260 has analog pass-through, Digital audio out, S-video & component out. However, it doesn't display menus & CC on S-video out.

Is there a non-CECB like the Samsung 260 that does display menus & CC on S-video out?

Thanks!

I can verify the Tivax STB-T1 displays menus via composite/s-video or component video. It requires a mode switch to change between component and composite/s-video. I don't have an answer about CC. I know the unit does CC and has a zillion different customizations but I don't know how to make it work. All I know is pushing the mute button when hooked up in component mode produces no captions.

I can verify the Tivax STB-T1 displays menus via composite/s-video or component video. It requires a mode switch to change between component and composite/s-video. I don't have an answer about CC. I know the unit does CC and has a zillion different customizations but I don't know how to make it work. All I know is pushing the mute button when hooked up in component mode produces no captions.
Don,
Thanks for the info. Hopefully, Tivax can solve the heat issue you've reported as the STB-T1 is cost-effective. In your Tivax STB-T1 thread, if I recall correctly, you stated that it doesn't have analog pass-through?

I don't think it has an analog pass through but I didn't really check it out closely. I just hid rabbit ears behind the tv to pull in the only station not broadcasting in digital. This way all I have to do to watch it is switch the tv from component to the tv tuner and there it is.

MAJOR CORRECTION: Yes, it does have analog pass through but you have to split your antenna or use an aux antenna.

I don't think it has an analog pass through but I didn't really check it out closely. I just hid rabbit ears behind the tv to pull in the only station not broadcasting in digital. This way all I have to do to watch it is switch the tv from component to the tv tuner and there it is.

MAJOR CORRECTION: Yes, it does have analog pass through but you have to split your antenna or use an aux antenna.
Don,
If a tuner or CECB has analog pass-through an external splitter is not needed to send the antenna signal to your TV's analog tuner. The advantage of an analog pass-through is that you prevent the signal loss that comes with inserting a splitter in your antenna cable.

Per the manual, the ATSC antenna must be connected to ATSC In. This is a completely different port from RF Antenna In. When the Tivax is turned off, this alternate signal from RF In (which is actually for a cable box) passes straight through RF Out to the TV. When the Tivax is turned on, the signal is interrupted in favor of DTV signal entering through ATSC In.

I'll check it out and see if signal from ATSC antenna will pass through.

Nope. There's no connection from ATSC In to RF Out so you have to split or use an aux.

In compensation, when the Tivax is turned off, ATSC In is switched out of the circuit so maybe there wouldn't be any signal loss because, in effect, there's no split. I dunno.

In fact, I'm thinking the Tivax won't even send ATSC by way of coax to a TV. It didn't work when I tried it so maybe the only routes available are the component cables or the composite/s-video. Oh jeez, something else to test.

Edit: I checked and yes, it will ship ATSC through coax but for some reason, my TV insists on acting as a monitor and never mind the 3/4 RF switch on the Tivax. I have to set my TV to Video1 to get a signal through the RF coax.

Don, I'm a little confused on the pass thru thing. I only have one antenna, a UHF/VHF antenna. If I hook this cable to the ATSC IN on the Tivax and then run a RF cable from the Tivax RF OUT to say a digital tuner DVDR will I be able to use the tuner on the DVDR, or will the RF OUT of the Tivax only output modulated channel 3 or 4? That is NO native passthru of the input signal.
I really can't figure out why the Tivax has the RF antenna in:confused: All they would have needed would have been a RF IN and RF out, with a option to disable the RF modulator(for RF passthru). I don't know why the converter box companies insist on making it so complicated. VCR's had this feature for 25 years and many sold for less that $50.
Maybe I'll understand it more when I get my LX1000. I'm hoping this week.

Wait, did you say one port was labeled ASTC IN and the other was RF in? I thought your box was supposed to get QAM cable? Can you verify if your box indeed gets QAM and what port you would need to hook that to. Maybe Cable goes to RF in and your antenna would go to ATSC in. That would make sense and be a handy feature for people with both cable and OTA. If this is the case when the box is off what signal if any is sent to the RF out of the Tivax?

I think your machine may be a completely different animal if it doesn't have QAM.

I don't know how to verify anything about QAM on mine. I have a Tuning Band menu item that offers choices of Air, Cable, Cable HRC, Cable IRC and Cable Auto. Since I need a 25-mile piece of coax to tie into CATV, there's nothing I can tell you about any of it except it works when set to air and does nothing when set otherwise. I haven't had cable TV available to me since 1983 so the the only thing I know for certain about QAM is it's useless to me. I don't know what it's for or how it does whatever it is supposed to do.

The manual says RF In is for connecting a cable box or VCR. When the Tivax is turned off, the alternate signal automatically passes through to the TV. When the Tivax is turned on, the signal is interrupted in favor of the local DTV channels. I think the reason for this is to accommodate people who have truly ancient TV's with only coax in and no A/V equipment although I don't know why someone like that would buy something like this.

But then again, maybe that won't work either. Although I was somehow able to get ATSC through the coax to the TV last night, I can't seem to make that happen again today. I guess I just dialed in the right combination last night.

I can tell you if I connect my antenna coax into ATSC In, no analog signal passes though RF Out, no matter what. If I hook my antenna to RF In, signal passes through RF Out when the Tivax is turned off. Therefore, if the signal is split or the coax physically moved from ATSC In to RF In, it does have analog pass through and it will feed though the component cables.

The manual says .....

But then again, maybe that won't work either. Although I was somehow able to get ATSC through the coax to the TV last night, I can't seem to make that happen again today. I guess I just dialed in the right combination last night.

I can tell you if I connect my antenna coax into ATSC In, no analog signal passes though RF Out, no matter what. If I hook my antenna to RF In, signal passes through RF Out when the Tivax is turned off. Therefore, if the signal is split or the coax physically moved from ATSC In to RF In, it does have analog pass through and it will feed though the component cables.

What is your assessment of the owner's manual? Is it user-friendly for English-speaking people?

Sounds like a unique arrangement as it forces you to use a splitter (one cable to ATSC & one to RF in) to have analog pass-through. So it does provide analog pass-through, but only if a splitter is used.

The advantage of the more typical analog pass-through function (only one RF input) is that you prevent the signal loss that may occur due to inserting a splitter in your antenna cable.

The manual is okay. It's nicely done and written in English, not Chinglish. It's all English with no sections dedicated to other languages. It would suit me better if there was a lot more "meat" in it but it's vastly superior to the manual provided for the CM-7000. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a downloadable version of the Tivax manual in existence.

Question for you. Would a splitter still degrade the signal if one route or the other was an electronic dead end? It not an issue for me since the upper half of the tower of the only non-digital station is plainly visible across my back field at night. I can plug a paper clip into a TV and watch that one.

Anytime you cut, extend, combine, split, distribute, etc, there will be a signal loss. To maintain signal strength, you ideally want one continuous length of cable (as short as possible) from the antenna to the TV tuner. This is why they make distribution amplifiers to compensate for the loss when one antenna feeds four sets for example.

Now back to the topic:

The CM-7000 does have S-video out. However, it doesn't have analog pass-through and becaust it is a CECB, it doesn't have Digital audio out.

The Samsung 260 has analog pass-through, Digital audio out, S-video & component out. However, it doesn't display menus & CC on S-video out.

Is there a non-CECB like the Samsung 260 that does display menus & CC on S-video out?

Thanks!

The Samsung 260 has analog pass-through, Digital audio out, S-video & component out. However, it doesn't display menus & CC on S-video out. Is there a non-CECB like the Samsung 260 that does display menus & CC on S-video out?

The PrimeDTV PHD-205 (http://www.epvision.com/) HD receiver has OSD on S-video. No pass-through, but it tunes NTSC analog, in addition to ATSC/QAM digital. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=638769&page=10

The PrimeDTV PHD-205 (http://www.epvision.com/) HD receiver has OSD on S-video. No pass-through, but it tunes NTSC analog, in addition to ATSC/QAM digital. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=638769&page=10

Hi jll544,
Thanks for the suggestion! I followed your link to the review by jmscott42 and subsequent posts:
The PHD205 isn't going to win any design awards-- definitely feels like a generic product (Which it is) -- plain outer box, plain design, very generic look and feel. If you have or have seen a generic Chinese $25 DVD player at Walmart, you sorta know what you're going to get. Which isn't bad but it does lack some of the polish of the Samsung box.

But it's what inside that counts, and it definitely feels like a 1/2 step up from the Samsung overall. The picture quality is pretty good-- for some reason I feel like the Samsung is ever-so-slightly better. The PHD-205 feels a little darker/murkier. (not tremendously so but a bit) The Samsung felt like images really popped off the screen and this doesn't quite have that feel.

Basically, I sort of feel like if you have the Samsung and it fulfills your needs, don't bother with the PHD-205 -- it's more of a competitive/clone model than providing anything new.

I'm having pretty good luck with mine overall. The only thing I am noticing is occasionally the video gets a strange super-over-sharp look to it. I can't quite describe it, but I notice it mostly on faces where the gradients of the color of people's cheeks or foreheads looks like someone used "sharpen more" on Photoshop about 10 times.

I need to figure out if I can get a screen capture to better explain it. It seems to happen more on certain channels, but putting the unit into standby and back on seems to clear it up.

Overall, no real complaints other than the remote really should've been better. Haven't had it freeze except on low signal situations (using OTA). Haven't tried hooking it up to cable to see what, if any, unencrypted channels I receive.

It's not perfect, has some rough edges, but yeah, I don't think you'll find anything better under $200.

Have you seen anything about the Winegard RC1010? This link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=800287) is all I've found so far.

Thanks again!

Have you seen anything about the Winegard RC1010?

Apparently the Winegard RC1010 is a rebranded Zinwell ZAT-600HD (aka Fuchicomm/Fuchiteck ZAT-600 HD). Reviews of the ZAT-600 on the web seem mixed.

Apparently the Winegard RC1010 is a rebranded Zinwell ZAT-600HD (aka Fuchicomm/Fuchiteck ZAT-600 HD). Reviews of the ZAT-600 on the web seem mixed.
Agreed.

Do you have any other suggestions for a non-CECB like the Samsung DTB-H260F that is able to display menus & CC on S-video out?

I guess the CM-7000 (S-video out) with the missing digital audio output components installed may be my "plan B" for our TV that doesn't have component inputs. Has anyone determined the specs of the missing components?

Do you have any other suggestions for a non-CECB like the Samsung DTB-H260F that is able to display menus & CC on S-video out?
Not at the moment, though I'm looking forward to jjeff's opinion of the LX1000 after he receives it.

Thanks to all for the following excellent advice:
... by using the component outs, the Samsung will have an edge in PQ, even with your SDTV. I own a Samsung 260, and for watching 16:9 programs, I prefer it over my CECB (an Insignia). My TV (a Sony SD 27" WEGA) is similar to yours in terms of inputs.
Yes, you will see better quality using component video.
I had the Sammy 260 for a while and did notice better PQ via it's S-out vs. a CECB, but had second thoughts on it's $170 price.
Generally speaking, I think you get a better picture using component over s-video. Even though both bypass the comb filter, I think the second chrominance signal makes a difference.
Since you have component inputs, I would get the Samsung H260F. You can find it for a lot less on ebay around the $60.00 range and possibly an open box item at Best Buy for $99 or less, like I did.
My DVD player has all three (S-video, Component and Composite) and with it I've found that the Component looks best, and the composite and S-video are about the same.
Also as n4yqt mentioned, if you can get the Samsung DTB260F for < $99, it's a better option, because it also has HDMI (I think) and QAM tuner too and I guess has a scheduler too.

After reading these overwhelming recommendations I purchased an open box "Sammy 260" very inexpensively. Using the component inputs and setting the resolution selector to 480i, we found the PQ to be significantly better compared to the same stations using the Toshiba's internal NTSC tuner. Truly excellent! Many thanks to everyone!!! :)

I only wish we could buy another Sammy 260 for our other TV that has S-video but unfortunately not component inputs.

According to a TV Fool analysis, the current predicted receiver signal strength for our area is about -75 dBm for analog reception and -92 dBm for digital reception. Consequently, with our Channel Master Quantum 1162A in the attic 19' above the ground, there isn't always enough signal strength to maintain a lock on the digital signal.

After discussing our situation with Ron at Channel Master tech support - very helpful :), I ordered a CM-0100DSB - a preamp that was specifically designed for CM Quantum antennas. Hopefully, this will give us the ability to consistently maintain a digital signal lock. If not, we can always roof-mount the the 1162A / 0100DSB. I'm really looking forward to adding the preamp so that we can fully appreciate the Samsung DTB-H260F.

Now if I can find non-CECB as good as the Samsung DTB-H260F that is able to display menus & CC on S-video out for our other TV ...

I'll keep you apprised on the state of the $85 STB-T1. I don't know if I have a dud or if they're all heaters. It's only drawing 12 watts under load (spec of 15w) but heat is definitely the cause of the rebooting problem. I've cured it for now by elevating the unit another half-inch with two strips of granite tile under the feet and displaying a couple of flat-bottom pyramidal shaped specimens of a metallic mineral called galena on the top cover. These act as exterior heat sinks. It's been burning since Sunday morning without a reboot. Other than the heat and some bad-weather issues with my hillbilly-hanging-in-a-tree antenna system, I'm eXtremely happy with this thing. I can confirm it does menus and CC via s-video. Get one and lets see if yours is a heater :D

Otherwise, jjeff should be popping in with his review of the $99 LX1000 any day now. One of these should suit you nicely.

I'll keep you apprised on the state of the $85 STB-T1.
Thanks Don - sounds like a plan. Will Tivax swap out you "heater":mad: for a "cooler":cool:?
;)

Yes but I definitely ain't giving this one up until after the Indy 500.

Otherwise, jjeff should be popping in with his review of the $99 LX1000 any day now.

jjeff,

What's the latest with the Tivax LX1000 you ordered?

Thanks

jjeff,

What's the latest with the Tivax LX1000 you ordered?

ThanksI was just thinking of PM'ing him and asking the same thing.

Sorry guys, I've been playing with the LX box since mid week. It's Veeeerrrey interesting indeed. Like no box I've ever seen, and that's not really good:D
You can check out my impressions at the LX thread I started in the Technical forum. My head is still spinning from this box:confused:
Jeff
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1030266

At one point in the CM-7000 thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13499226#post13499226) there was discussion about re-enabling the digital audio out that was deleted to make this model coupon-eligible. Below are a few selected quotes:

On the positive side:
Fry's has the CM-7000 on sale again, so I went and picked one up. See attached for a closeup view of the digital output circuit.

Missing are 4 resistors, 3 capacitors, and 2 transistors. Using a DMM, I measured +1.65V @ RA7, +5V @ RD60, and +5V @ CD28/QD9. Any theories what the missing component values should be?

@drlava, actually it does support anamorphic widescreen. Simply hit the "Wide" button on the remote to select the "Full" picture setting.

Excellent info!
Here's a quick visual analysis:

The 1.65V is the rms voltage of the 3.3V biphase manchester encoded data coming from the chip. This goes to the amp/buffer PNP transistor QD10 whose emitter (and base of QD9) is biased by RD60. QD9 may be a NPN transistor with a buffer cap on its collector (CD28). Its output goes to impedance matching/filter network RD61, 62, and CD29, and is finally AC coupled to the coax output through CD30.
RA7 may be necessary for signal integrity to cut down on ringing, or provide additional pull up or pull down current.

With one of these in hand, I could probably have a working solution in an hour or less.

Those suggesting other choices:
I agree with onslowtn... it seems that unless you have as much free time as a teenager the digital audio out on the CM-7000 is a lost cause. The true issue is reception sensitivity and overall satisfaction with the user interface. If you are REALLY REALLY after higher end outputs just cut your losses and buy the Tivax STB-T1 (even though it's not coupon-eligible). Take a look here... http://www.amazon.com/Tivax-ATSC-Digital-TV-Tuner/dp/B000OD2H7C

Tivax website also sells ($90) STB-T1 (aka LX-1000??) HD-STB:
http://www.tivax.com/converter.htm

The inexpensive Coby DTV-140 HD-STB always seems to be Out-Of-Stock.

RJTech RJ-1000 ATSC (480i low-rez) SD-STB supports ATSC, QAM and
Coax Digital Audio.

None of these qualify for the CECB Coupon program....
_____________________________________________________

Recent reviews of these models follow below:

1.) Tivax STB-T1
I'll keep you apprised on the state of the $85 STB-T1. I don't know if I have a dud or if they're all heaters. It's only drawing 12 watts under load (spec of 15w) but heat is definitely the cause of the rebooting problem. I've cured it for now by elevating the unit another half-inch with two strips of granite tile under the feet and displaying a couple of flat-bottom pyramidal shaped specimens of a metallic mineral called galena on the top cover. These act as exterior heat sinks. It's been burning since Sunday morning without a reboot. Other than the heat and some bad-weather issues with my hillbilly-hanging-in-a-tree antenna system, I'm eXtremely happy with this thing. I can confirm it does menus and CC via s-video. Get one and lets see if yours is a heater :D

Otherwise, jjeff should be popping in with his review of the $99 LX1000 any day now. One of these should suit you nicely.
2.) Tivax LX-1000
Sorry guys, I've been playing with the LX box since mid week. It's Veeeerrrey interesting indeed. Like no box I've ever seen, and that's not really good:D
You can check out my impressions at the LX thread I started in the Technical forum. My head is still spinning from this box:confused:
Jeff
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1030266

3.) Coby DTV-140 Notes (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11962826#post11962826)

4.) RJ-1000ATSC Set Top Digital Tuner Review (http://www.hdtvtunerinfo.com/rj1000stbreview.html)
__________________________________________________________

Are there any other choices for a reliable ATSC tuner with good fringe RX and PQ equal to the Samsung DTB-H260F but that has full function (menus and CC) on the S-video outputs?

If not, maybe re-enabling the digital audio out on the CM-7000 is worth the effort?

No matter what you do to it, the Channel Master is never going to have the PQ equal to the DTB-H260F - just because of the resolution difference - even on an SDTV.

Rammitinski,

Please, tell me more. What are the likely results of the following comparison on a 36" SD CRT Toshiba using S-video in: CM-7000 VS DTB-H260F set to 480i.

(This comparison assumes the DTB-H260F offers full function menus & CC on S-video, which unfortunately it does not.)

Thanks

Can the DTB-H260F be programed through the USB port or modified to provide menus & CC on S-video output?

No and no. The Samsung is really intended for use with a HDTV using the component or HDMI outputs. If you have a SD TV that doesn't have Component inputs - you really are better off using one of the CECB boxes.

There are so few CECBs with S-video out. This is why I've been looking at non-CECB, external ATSC SD & HD (with 480i selectable video out) tuners.

Scooper's right. I was just pointing that out about the PQ. The Zenith' CECB box has excellent PQ, though. It's even looks good on my 50" plasma. Don't really think you can improve on it that much with s-video.

jjeff here says his Panasonic EZ-28 recorder's ATSC tuner looks even better than the Zenith's to his eyes on an SD display - about equal to the Sammy's - so you could consider something like that, too. Not only will you get s-video connections, you'll get component and HDMI, too. And a DVD recorder to boot. No guide though, as far as I know.

The Zenith' CECB box has excellent PQ, though. It's even looks good on my 50" plasma. Don't really think you can improve on it that much with s-video.

Has anyone compared the Zenith composite out CECB to the CM-7000 S-video out?

Thanks for the heads up on the Panasonic DVD EZ-28 recorder:

Good PQ ATSC tuner - about equal to the Sammy's
s-video connections, component and HDMI, too
Well-know reliable brand too!

Which of the following tuners comes closest to the reliability & performance of the $179 Samsung DTB-H260F and is able to display menus & CC on S-video out?

Over The Air DTV/HDTV/Cable Clear QAM

Available Now: (and < $220)


Coby DTV-140 $139 ATSC, No QAM, SD output ONLY on 480i and 480p
Digital Stream HD 5150 $219 ATSC
PrimeDTV PHD-205 $149 ATSC, Clear QAM, NTSC, menus via s-video
Pro-Brand / Digital Stream HD3150 $199
RJTech RJ-1000 ATSC SD-STB supports ATSC, QAM and
Coax Digital Audio, Output only 480i, Runs hot
Tivax STB-T1 $85 SD ATSC, QAM menus via s-video, Runs hot
Tivax LX1000 $99 HD ATSC, (QAM?) runs cool
Winegard RC-1010 $190 ATSC, menus via s-video
(See reviews or review links in this thread.)

Conspicuously absent from the above list are:
Hitachi, JVC, LG, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Pioneer, Sharp, Sony, & Toshiba.

For the complete list see:
New & Improved! The Official AVS HDTV STB Synopsis - Winter 2008! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095)

Tivax LX1000 $90 HD ATSC, (QAM?) Runs hot


jjeff said this one runs cool but there are so many other things wrong it's inconsequential. Price is $99.

Just want to make sure you know what I mean about the PQ of the EZ-28 Panasonic DVDR. Watching a HD broadcast, from a 720p station (eg. FOX or ABC) IMO the output via "HDMI" to my 32" HDTV is basically as good as the TV's built in HD tuner, at times it can even look better. The catch is 1080i broadcasts( eg. PBSHD, CBS, NBC etc.). They do look better using a true HD tuner, or using the TV's built in HD tuner. Also to clarify I hooked up the S-out of the same DVDR to my TV and did not get the same PQ. That is just using the tuner output of the DVDR via S-video it was NOT as good as my TV's HD tuner(even on 720p broadcasts). I only realized the gain by using the HDMI out. So in your case since you probably do not have a HDMI port on your TV I would not suggest you get the DVDR for just tuner use, a CECB would probably suit you better.
Now you may ask how does the S-out of the DVDR compare to the composite out of say a Zenith CECB? Actually I haven't done this test, but my gut feeling is the Zenith may actually have the edge. I'd have to do a side by side test. My only test was to take the S-video out of my EZ-28 and feed one of my analog DVDRs. Doing that I did not get a DVD what was nearly as good as recording directly on my EZ-28, or "I think" even as good as composite out of my Zenith CECB to the same analog DVDR.

OTA DT MAN, I think you and I are almost in the same boat. I want a great SD output to feed to my analog DVDRs. The Zenith CECB while good still uses composite and I feel I will get a better PQ using S-video. In fact I have got better PQ using the Sammy and the LX1000 via S-video out, but both of those have other issues other that PQ.
Personally I think I'm going to try and exchange the LX1000 for the STB-T1. If I cannot do this I think I'll wait for a decent CECB with S-video out. I'd like the component outs for my SD Sony TV, but that takes me out of the CECB arena, and at $170 for the Sammy it was more than I wanted to spend for a converter box. I guess if I could score a used Sammy for $100 like some people talk about that would probably be my best option. I've just never seen one that cheap, or even a used one period.

Rammitinski,
The DVD recorders w/built-in tuners sound like a great solution for Feb 2009. However, I read in CR that while the current tested models have ATSC QAM tuners, they are not able to record in true HD. So while this solution will work for our current TV, these DVD recorders will not be the best choice when we eventually replace our SDTV with a HDTV.

jjeff,

Thanks for the detailed information about the PQ of the EZ-28 Panasonic DVDR.

OTA DT MAN, I think you and I are almost in the same boat. I want a great SD output to feed to my analog DVDRs. The Zenith CECB while good still uses composite and I feel I will get a better PQ using S-video. Have you considered the CM-7000 S-video CECB?

In fact I have got better PQ using the Sammy and the LX1000 via S-video out, but both of those have other issues other that PQ.
Personally I think I'm going to try and exchange the LX1000 for the STB-T1. If I cannot do this I think I'll wait for a decent CECB with S-video out. Have you ruled out the currently available CM-7000 S-video CECB?

I'd like the component outs for my SD Sony TV, but that takes me out of the CECB arena, and at $170 for the Sammy it was more than I wanted to spend for a converter box. I guess if I could score a used Sammy for $100 like some people talk about that would probably be my best option. I've just never seen one that cheap, or even a used one period.

Did you see the following post in this thread?
05-08-08, 05:20 PM
Since you have component inputs, I would get the Samsung H260F. You can find it for a lot less on ebay around the $60.00 range and possibly an open box item at Best Buy for $99 or less, like I did.

I'm happy to report that n4yqt's advice worked for me. I'm a happy owner of a Sammy 260.

Which of the following tuners comes closest to the reliability & performance of the $179 Samsung DTB-H260F and is able to display menus & CC on S-video out?

Over The Air DTV/HDTV/Cable Clear QAM

Available Now: (and < $220)



PrimeDTV PHD-205 $149 ATSC, Clear QAM, NTSC, menus via s-video

(See reviews or review links in this thread.)

Conspicuously absent from the above list are: LG, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Sony, & Toshiba.

For the complete list see:
New & Improved! The Official AVS HDTV STB Synopsis - Winter 2008! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095)
From what I've read online the PrimeDTV PHD-205 is the closest to the Sammy. You might want to check out its thread.

Hi Sammer,

Thanks for the suggestion. jmscott42's review of the PrimeDTV PHD-205 was discussed in post #53 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13870817#post13870817) of this thread.

jjeff,

Thanks for the detailed information about the PQ of the EZ-28 Panasonic DVDR.



Did you see the following post in this thread?
05-08-08, 05:20 PM


I'm happy to report that n4yqt's advice worked for me. I'm a happy owner of a Sammy 260.

Where did you find your Sammy, and might I ask how much it was?
As far as the CM box, it's probably at the top of my list now. I'd just like to be able to get it locally thought, in case I have issues with it.
I actually had a Sammy for a little while but thought the retail price was kind of spendy. In hind site it was so much better designed that my Tivax HD box I probably shouldn't have returned it.
How are you liking your Sammy so far?

Where did you find your Sammy, and might I ask how much it was?
As far as the CM box, it's probably at the top of my list now. I'd just like to be able to get it locally thought, in case I have issues with it.
I actually had a Sammy for a little while but thought the retail price was kind of spendy. In hind site it was so much better designed that my Tivax HD box I probably shouldn't have returned it.
How are you liking your Sammy so far?
BB. I followed n4yqt's advice and purchased an "open stock" / "B-stock" unit for $90.

Frys (http://shop1.frys.com/ac/storelocator/index.jsp;jsessionid=h93c9mqNIyq268vcK3QgXQ**.node2) is the only non-online CM-7000 dealer I've seen discussed in this forum. However, they don't have a location in MN.

Using the component inputs and setting the resolution selector to 480i, we found the Sammy PQ to be significantly better compared to the same stations using the Toshiba's internal NTSC tuner. Truly excellent!:)

I only wish we could buy another Sammy 260 for our other TV that has S-video but unfortunately not component inputs. We may order the CM-7000 for it.

According to a TVFool.com analysis, the current predicted receiver signal strength for our area is about -75 dBm for analog reception and -92 dBm (weak signal) for digital reception. Consequently, with our Channel Master Quantum 1162A in the attic (sub-optimal location) 19' above the ground, there wasn't always enough signal strength to maintain a consistent lock on this weak digital signal. I've considered roof-mounting the antenna.

After discussing our situation with Ron Morgan at Channel Master tech support - very helpful:), I ordered a CM-0100DSB (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/0100DSB.htm) - a preamp that was specifically designed for CM Quantum antennas. This preamp significantly improved the signal strength thus solving our digital signal lock issue. We can now fully appreciate the Samsung DTB-H260F and the benefits of digital reception.:)

Ron thinks that after analog broadcasting ends, the stations will turn up the power of their digital transmitters since they will no longer have to pay to operate two transmitters.

I hope this helps.

I keep looking for a open box Sammy. I look every time I'm there but no luck, only new ones. Hopefully more B&M stores will stock the CM box in the future. Thanks for the info.

Ron thinks that after analog broadcasting ends, the stations will turn up the power of their digital transmitters since they will no longer have to pay to operate two transmitters.



If we are to believe tvfool, that may not wash. According to their before and after data, our 15.1 is currently on 47 real with 207.30 kw fired at my range and azimuth. Post transition, that will change to 105.72 kw. The real channel will change from 47 to 15, however, so I hope the lower frequency makes up for the reduced power. Maybe so. The projected dBm remains the same.

Unrelated: I got a RMA for my Tivax box yesterday and will be sending it for replacement next week. Hopefully the next one will be better but if not, the choices to replace it are mighty thin. I'll be watching for your continued comments on the Samsung.

Hopefully more B&M stores will stock the CM box in the future. Thanks for the info.

For B&M locations see: CHANNEL MASTER Distributor Locator - USA (http://www.channelmasterintl.com/locator_us.html#al)

Note: Just because a store is an authorized CM dealer does not indicate they’ve also a certified converter box retailer for the Fed. Gov. coupon program (CECB). Check the following list to see if they are participating in that program.

The NTIA list of Participating Retailers (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/support-files/dtv_certified_retailers.pdf)

Unrelated: I got a RMA for my Tivax box yesterday and will be sending it for replacement next week. Hopefully the next one will be better but if not, the choices to replace it are mighty thin. I'll be watching for your continued comments on the Samsung.
Hopefully, your new Tivax will be healthy. If not, you're right - there aren't too many alternatives. A reduced-price, open box Samsung, if you can find one, may be a good choice. If such a unit should have a future service issue like your frig experience:eek:, it won't be a big loss as you won't have much invested in it.

After reviewing the current possibilities of 480i external tuners and CECBs with S-video out to answer the following question:

Which of the following tuners comes closest to the reliability & performance of the $179 Samsung DTB-H260F and is able to display menus & CC on S-video out?

Available Now: (and < $220)

Coby DTV-140 $139 ATSC, No QAM, SD output ONLY on 480i and 480p
Digital Stream HD 5150 $219 ATSC
PrimeDTV PHD-205 $149 ATSC, Clear QAM, NTSC, menus via s-video
Pro-Brand / Digital Stream HD3150 $199
RJTech RJ-1000 ATSC SD-STB supports ATSC, QAM and Coax Digital Audio, Output only 480i, Runs hot
Tivax STB-T1 $85 SD ATSC, QAM menus via s-video, Runs hot
Tivax LX1000 $99 HD ATSC, (QAM?) runs cool
Winegard RC-1010 $190 ATSC, menus via s-video

(See reviews or review links in this thread.)

Conspicuously absent from the above list are:
Hitachi, JVC, LG, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Pioneer, Sharp, Sony, & Toshiba.

I have ordered the Channel Master CM-7000 for our non-component input SDTV for the following reasons:

None of the above choices are manufactured / sold by one of the brands on the "conspicuously absent" list
The reviews of the performance of above units are not as impressive as the reviews of the Samsung DTB-H260F (http://hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/h260f.html)
Channel Master has earned a good reputation in the TV RF business over the past 50 years
CM has great tech support. Any questions call Ron Morgan, 866-430-1307.
We've been impressed with our CM Quantum 1162A antenna and 0100DSB preamp
The CM-7000 has the latest-generation Thompson Tuner (http://www.thomson.net/GlobalEnglish/Products/tuners/digital-terrestrial-applications/atsc-mmds/dtt7685x/Pages/default.aspx)
Rotor-friendly: Scan channels, re-aim rotor, re-scan, and add additional channels without erasing the originally scanned channels
Aspect-ratio adjustment
EPG, OSD, CC, & signal strength meter
Channel buttons on box (Lost/dead battery/broken remote-friendly)
HDTVexpert (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/2TV_Converters.html) review
$40 coupon eligible - expiration date approaching
Potential for re-enabling digital audio out

Tivax LX1000 $99 HD ATSC, (QAM?) runs cool

I respect your ? mark since Tivax does not list QAM for the LX1000, but it has the option in the menu and hooking it up to cable it indeed tunes QAM channels. Note even the manual does not reference QAM:confused: It's a odd box indeed:D

For additional info on the following two models:

Coby DTV-140
RJTech RJ-1000

see the last section of holl_ands recently updated CECB Feature List (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13959917#post13959917)

Per:
http://www.hdtvtunerinfo.com/rj1000stbreview.html

"NOTE: THIS TUNER HAS BEEN DISCONTINUED"

To all who have an SDTV with component video inputs, please check out this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1041428).
Thanks!

Wouldn't touch anything with the Coby brand name on it if it were the only box on Earth.

Rammitinski,
I think Don could use your assistance. See his new thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1041197)

Wouldn't touch anything with the Coby brand name on it if it were the only box on Earth.

Actually some of their crap works surprising well if you dont abuse it. Ive been using their CV-360 headphones for 15 years (They have very good sound reproduction IMO, strong bass and clear highs) even though Ive had to repair the cord about a dozen times. :p And the imitation leather covering the foam has completely disintegrated.
IMO, the $12 CV-360 has better sound than my Bose $140 headphones, and way way better than my $39 RCA wireless headphones.

I think a better comparison would be the Channel Master CM-7000 vs the Apex 250 since they both have S-Video outputs.
Hi n4yqt,

Yes, i agree the above would be an interesting comparison. At the time I started this thread the Apex 250 was not available. In fact, According to the Apex website, this box will be available in August 2008. (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Apex_DT250.html) And we all know how accurate availability predictions in the CECB world have been. However, there are now initial reports of availability,

One of my original reasons for this thread was to see if component output tuners would provide a noticeable improvement in PQ as compared to S-video CECBs. In our home, we have 2 Toshiba SDTVs - One with component inputs & one with s-video inputs. We now happily own a Channel Master CM-7000 and a Samsung DTB-H260F. Both are excellent choices. However, if one's TV has component video inputs, the PQ is noticeably better - better color saturation.

FWIW, per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex_Digital):
Apex Digital, Inc. is an American electronics manufacturer based in City of Industry, California. They manufacture mainly budget-priced consumer electronics such as televisions and DVD players.

Controversy

In 2004, Apex Digital was accused of not paying outstanding debts. In spite of "struggling to meet US TV orders", as spokeswoman Marietta Schoenherz claims, Apex Digital reportedly owed millions in debts to suppliers. One supplier, Sichuan Changhong Electric Appliance Co., claimed they were owed in excess of RMB 4.3 Billion(~ 550 million US$) and provisions. In response to this claim, the Chinese government detained Apex Chairman David Longfen Ji on December 30, 2004 on fraud charges.[1] He was arrested on these charges on May 18, 2005, to be hospitalized and released August 18, 2005. Since the arrest, David's family has been concerned for his health and concerned for his future.[2]

Versus:

Channel Master (http://www.channelmasterintl.com/about.html)
Parent company - PCT International (http://www.pctinternational.com/_about/index.html)