I bought the Canon HF10 solid state camcorder and I have it mounted on a RAM mount attached to the bar behind the drivers seat in a Porsche Cayman.

The problem is that driving on any road, I’m getting what appears to be vertical and horizontal jitter and distortion, even with the IS on. I also get it with the car at idle. Don’t get it when I shoot, hand held. Tried three different “state of the art” Canon cameras and get the same result. Never had a problem with my Sony tape camcorder and never tried Sony HD of any model.

The camera store thought the camera was too light and that it may be responding to every vibration. But I notice that other members in the Porsche club use light weight cameras and the video is great. However, none of them have the HF10.

Any suggestions on shock mounting a camera for this application, vibration isolation etc? I can’t feel any vibration with the car at idle. Is the HF10 too sensitive. Also, any opinions regarding the Sony 120GB hard drive camcorder. If it would be able to take the forces and stiff ride of a sports car.

Charlie

The problem is that driving on any road, I’m getting what appears to be vertical and horizontal jitter and distortion, even with the IS on. I also get it with the car at idle. Don’t get it when I shoot, hand held. Tried three different “state of the art” Canon cameras and get the same result. Never had a problem with my Sony tape camcorder and never tried Sony HD of any model.
Does it look like this: http://www.vimeo.com/920276 or like this: http://www.vimeo.com/813537 or like this: http://www.vimeo.com/819044 ?

Ungermann, You nailed it. Don't know how you found those videos. The first clip is the closest to what I am getting. I was not racing at the time, but that's the effect. Is it the camera? My car is a mid engine and the camera is mounted directly over it. Looks like the location is the same as the clip. Do you think some mount damping would solve the problem or do you think I should go to Sony?

Thanks, for your response.

Charlie

I don't know whether Sony is much better. The issue is inherent to CMOS sensors, but I've heard that Sony did more work than Canon to mitigate it. See this http://www.vimeo.com/670446 and discussion below.

You won't get this effect with a CCD sensor, that is for sure.

That first video is EXACTLY what I'm experiencing with my HF10 in 24p mode, but I'm sure as hell not shooting racecar footage. I'm shooting SLOW pans with a tripod and it STILL looks like that! If the camera doesn't move at all, things looks incredible (way better than I thought possible with a sub-$1000 camera)... but it sucks not being able to do any handheld shots or panning.

Ungermann, with what you have shown me, this coming week I will try some different cameras. I will also call Canon and get their take on the "lack of durability" related to the F10 and their other cameras with similar sensors.

Thanks,

Charlie

Craig Beam, now I'm really concerned. Since I did not have the problem your experiencing "hand held", I was considering keeping the HF10 for general use and buying a more durable camera for the race track. I have only had the HF10 for a few days. Did you notice the problem immediately, or did it gradually get worse?

Charlie

cvideo, I've only had the HF10 for a few days, so I haven't been able to do much playing yet. The profound jittery effect is mostly confined to the 24p mode. 1080i mode is much better, but the camera is still very sensitive to motion. On a tripod, it's sensational... as long as the camera doesn't move. I'd say, based on my experiences so far, handheld in 1080i mode should be fine, but ANY movements will definitely be picked up. The OIS is by no means perfect.

So what's the take on the in-car cam? I have been researching various cams. I plan to use it a lot for shooting automotive scenes-- anything from street, track, strip, etc. After much research, I decided to go for a Flash based cam over an HDD. I figure that I will be mounting the cam to the car and the vibrations and general abuse would not be very good for the moving-parts hard drive. Am I wrong on this point?

I know it's hard to expect much from cameras that cost this much, but I was looking for one that could be able to capture motion (as well as can be had in this range), extensive manual controls, and good low-light capabilities. I realize that I will have to sacrifice some. Right now, my frontrunners are (were) the HF10 and the SD-9. The CX12 is too severely lacking in the manual controls department.

I read an article that seemed to explain CMOS Rolling Shutter (DVXUser... can't post urls yet..). Does this mean that for my application, the SD9 (CCD) would be preferable to the SD100 (CMOS)?

What about MDV cams? I know both cams will require transfering and such-- are tapes really more hassle? It feels like the technology has reached its limit and is about to be phased out... The video of the HV20 was no better than any of the others...

I plan to head down to my local camera store and get some hands on with the cameras before I buy. As I am a college student, this is a potentially huge purchase for me. I really need to find a solution to this jitter when mounted to a car, as that will be a major part of my shooting. IS there any way to test these out (I would think not...)? Would any of the stabilization devices that are out there make a difference? Any other cams that anyone might recommend? Or... should I just notch it up a level, take the time to earn more, and then invest in a higher-end camera? I haven't begun to research any as they are out of my price range.

I've put so much time, combing this forum, camcorderinfo.com (reviews, specs), manufacturer websites, catalogues-- I thought I was set until I found this thread (disheartening, but useful and extremely informative, +1). I refused to create any threads without exhausting all other research materials, and now the time has come...

Thoughts?

Has anybody tried this WITHOUT the image stabilization on? It's most definitely rolling shutter but it can sometimes be minimized by turning off the OIS (or Eis as the case may be).

i would definitely turn off image stabilization, if the camera is mounted inside the car... a big part of the problem with those clips that ungermann linked to is camera vibration, because the camera is not firmly mounted inside of the car.

when the camera becomes an integral part of the roll cage, by hard mounting, it will not change perspective relative to it's surroundings, so there can be no issues with rolling shutter... i use the roll cage mount from i/o port racing.

sean, i do a lot of drag racing stuff with the hf11, what i do is set the shutter speed at 1/60th, which blurs out the rolling shutter during fast pans... since the car going down the track is relatively stationary in front of the lens, it is not affected by rolling shutter.

the drawback to a slow shutter is that it can look blurry during slow motion, here is an example from some drag racing video that i shot:

Drag racing videos of a big wheelstand by a nitrous car (http://www.dragracingtv.com/blog/2008/big-wheelstand-by-a-drag-racing-nitrous-car)

What about in-car footage? The comments made to wwwvimeocom/920276 say that the SD9 and the HF100 are equally bad. I have yet to see any in-car footage from an SD-9, or footage from either with OIS turned off.

Know where I might look for more SD-9 or HF10 specific videos? I am trying to ask around on an AutoX forum, but it's hard to find people with these specific cams.

look on vimeo.com.

ccd would have the advantage over cmos for incar cam.

Does anyone know if the new panasonic 3mos cameras have the same problem? Is the wobble 3 times as bad? ;-)

I was thinking of picking up a HF100 or HDR-CX12. I can get the HF100 for about $250 less than the Sony. The camera would primarily be used to capture video of our child, but I also plan on using the camera for some in car video during autoslaloms and track days. Now I'm not sure what to do. Any advice?

Most of the people who go to track days seem to use small lipstick cams and remote-capable devices. Others seem to stick to older technology to avoid the rolling shutter.

Or they go with the Sony cams. As Ungerman noted above, Sony cams are not as inflicted by rolling shutter effect. I have the Canon HV20, the Sony HC3, and Sony HC7. Both my Sony cams simply blow the Canon out of the water when it comes to fast action and movements.

There's a guy on the Vegas pro forums that does a lot of sky diving with helmet cams. He uses Sony (the HC3 specifically) because they they produce MUCH less noticeable rolling shutter. That's not to say that you can't see it (if you look hard enough.... but you have to look.

But again, I would turn OFF the image stabilization and try again. Some of the above video samples look EXACTLY like some fair quality (but shaky) HC3 footage that has been in turn run through an editor with Mercalli set too high (image stabilizer software).

http://www.prodad.de/gb/mercalli_std_details.html

Sony may be nice, however they lack manual control.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-HDR-SR12-Camcorder-Review-34809/Specs-and-Ratings.htm

It'd be nice to find some in-car footage from a Canon HF/HV with OIS off...

The mount definitely plays a crucial role but after switching to a mount that has been proven to work, the video I take still vibrates badly. Granted I was using a point-n-shoot camera (Samsung NV24HD) but I'm ready to step up to a hand-held camcorder hoping it will stop the vibrations.

My camera mount sits right in front of the windscreen between the 2 seats.
Mount before installation (http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo337/ravynxmiko/S2000/misc/camera_mount002.jpg)
Mount after installation (http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo337/ravynxmiko/S2000/misc/camera_mount010.jpg)
Camera mount view (http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo337/ravynxmiko/S2000/misc/camera_mount013.jpg)

There are quite a few videos of S2000's with the same mount that I have but have no vibrations like in my test video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wn3a4v-hX4) (make sure to click on "Watch in HD" at bottom right of video).

Example video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw50oe5SYNg) of the same camera mount (Modifry windscreen mount) in an s2000 but hardly any vibrations.

Check out a website corner-carvers . com to get some feedback on in-car cams. I remember reading some stuff here some months back, but it was before I was in market for a new camera. I personally don't have any experience on this topic, but thought you might get some good info here. Just search in-car cameras or something close.

Wow, I wish I had discovered this thread earlier.

After reading many good reviews of the HF-10 for regular purposes, I encouraged my dad to buy it for his race car. Unfortunately, the video looks way shakier than any of the examples above! It is totally unwatchable, and we've tightened the roll cage, camera mount, tried ever setting, everything.

As a newbie is there a good site where I could see the difference between a CMOS and 3CCD chipset? I'm very new and just discouraged by these video results.

Also, are there any other cameras that use cheap static media that would make for a recommended in car camera?

Thanks,

Matt

I can use something like this.

http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo337/ravynxmiko/S2000/misc/camera_mount002.jpg

Do you guys know where I can find this cam mount?

A solid mount is very important, I use this one http://www.filmtools.com/filmtools-in-car-windshield-camera-mount.html

I have tried a Canon HV20 on many different car mounts and never had much luck. From reading reviews and others experiences, Canon's OS does not seem to do well with vibration present in a car situation. Sony seems to be the best but would stay away from any hard drive camera for use in the car.

I have had good luck with some Sanyo models. Here is a video using the HD1000 (Ferrari) and TH1 (BMW) http://www.speedandmotion.com/pages/videos/mmd052509mulhollandencinal.html

A friend got one of these http://vholdr.com/contourhd/helmetcam and so far so good.

Look at http://www.azimotion.com and Tripshot. This is what I use in my Porsche.

You can use any camcorder, because it effectively uses a tripod and is held in place with a seatbelt.

See videos at either http://www.azimotion.com/trip_videos.html or
http://www.azimotion.com/more_videos.php

I had two concerns when I first started looking at mounts. One, I didn't trust the suction-cup type (didn't want to wreck my sony hdr sr-5 in case it popped off, which happens when it gets hot as it does here in texas). Second, my Porsche has no headrest for the bar-n-clamp type mounts (and I really wouldn't want to use that even if it did - having a bar aimed at my head isn't what I want to think about when I'm driving). The Tripshot tripod mount is an easy secure solution.

Good luck!

www.stickypod.com another option

I had almost the same problem as you, using the Canon HF10 on a Fat Gecko suction mount in my Mazda Miata. It was hard to get a good position with the camera on this mount at the windshield. I had a wide adapter on. The jitter was totally unacceptable, and quite apparent even on mild roads.

I've since done a lot of work on this and here is what I found. It is almost impossible to get good results with cameras like the little Canon, even with a wide adapter. The built in stabilization is not tuned to handle the 50-150 HZ vibration inherent in car applications.

You're best off with a small camera like the Drift Innovation HD170 Stealth, Contour HD GPS, or GoPro HD Hero. I personally selected the Drift because of its built-in LCD screen, built-in tripod screw socket, and 310-degree rotation. It weighs under 6 oz and is about 5.5 inches long. It's field of view is 170 degrees at 720-30p or -60P and 127 deg. at 1080p. Even at 1080p, that's far wider than a camera like the HF10 and wide adapter can get. It can be mounted with a simple Panavise suction device on the windshield, or other areas of the car. The cameras from Contour and GoPro are in the same weight and coverage class. By contrast, even the Canon HF10 and its counterparts from Sony and others are much larger and heavier, making them harder to manage in a vibration environment.

However, before you ditch the Canon, try one more thing. Add the wide adapter if not already done, and mount the camera so that it's suspended from above rather that supported from below. Have the CG on axis below the center of the mount. That will put the principle axis vibration in the mount's stongest direction. Since the camera will be inverted, use your editing software to reorient the image.

I am continuing to investigate techniques for reducing vibration, even with a small camera like the HD170. There still is some, but it's not as objectionable as with a bigger camera and corresponding bigger mount.

See this:

K8nptFx1jug

On-camera video is watchable, still, the "jello" is noticeable, and this really annoys me. I guess they used GoPro or something similar with a faster chip readout, still all (or most?) CMOS chips so far use rolling shutter, and this defect is inherent to them, no matter what make and model you have.

For better image you need a camera with CCD sensor, which has global shutter. CCD sensors are being phased out for smaller and even for medium-sized professional cameras, so look on eBay. The SD9 mentioned above is a good choice. I would turn image stabilizer off, especially if it is opto-mechanical, because it will go crazy in such harsh conditions, I would be worried for it not to be damaged.

Mounting a CMOS-based cam on a car's frame will not help. On contrary, a CMOS-based cam need a "flying" mount with no bumps passed to the camera. This is hugely expensive and takes more space.

Mounting a CMOS-based cam on a car's frame will not help. On contrary, a CMOS-based cam need a "flying" mount with no bumps passed to the camera. This is hugely expensive and takes more space.


Ok, but why can't you make one similar to the stabilizers they use for microphones? The mic is suspended by rubber bands, wouldn't something similar work for a camcorder to minimize vibrations?