People love to debate about ****, and we’re no different here at The Barrel. Lately, there have been rumors that the Xbox 360 is going to have an update that enables game installs. Why an update would be needed for this (couldn’t the developers just get permission from Microsoft without any messy updates?) and whether or not this theory holds any water remains to be seen. One thing is certain, though… we can’t agree on anything. So without further adieu, let’s make with the arguin’!

David: The Argument For Installations
When publishers release multi-platform games that appear on both the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 enthusiasts often castigate Sony’s hardware when the PS3 version requires a mandatory install. Typically consisting of several gigabytes worth of data, these installations allow the PlayStation to access game assets more quickly that it could were it to pull all of the information off of the relatively slow Blu Ray disc, resulting in a better game play experience.

Nerdery & Esoterica
The 2X Blu Ray drive included in the PlayStation 3 is capable of pulling data off the disc at 8 mb/s, about half the rate of the 360’s 12X DVD drive - under ideal (read: single layer disc) conditions, anyway. By contrast, the hard drives included with modern consoles are capable of upwards of 100 mb/s, roughly 6X faster than their optical brethren. Inconsistent drive speeds for dual layered DVDs make a true apples to apples comparison beyond the scope of this article, but the bottom line is that installing a game will make it run better than it would otherwise. That’s why practically all PC games require installations… if you can count on a hard drive being there, (a safe assumption for PCs) there’s almost no good reason you wouldn’t want to take advantage of their rapid access rates by installing some of the data onto them.

Soft-Core
Considering the advantages of game installation, it’s too bad that Microsoft released the Core model of the Xbox 360 without built-in hard drive support. If they had decided to include a hard drive in each and every variant of their hardware, they too could enjoy the benefits of game installations. Developers like the ability to install their games, which is significantly less tricky to code than the streaming technology on which Microsoft’s console currently relies. Regarding his company’s port of The Orange Box to consoles, Valve’s Gabe Newell said of Microsoft’s console, “…Xbox 360 doesn’t make my life any better, and in fact, it makes it a lot worse, as you’re telling me I can’t count on having a hard drive.” Imagine if you had the ability to improve the way many of your favorite games looked while reducing their load times, and you can begin to understand Gabe Newell’s frustrations. Yes, it would eat up hard drive space, but ask most gamers if they would prefer games with better graphics, and you’re likely to hear a resounding, “Hell Yeah!”

Just Wait!
On a purely subjective note, I thought about one of the advantages of game installation the last time I bought a new PS3 game. During the 10 minute install, I asked myself for the sake of argument, “Assuming every second I wait now is one less second I’ll be interrupted once I’m actually playing the game, is it better to get the loads out of the way all at once, or spread out the waiting in little chunks throughout the game-play experience?” My answer came without hesitation… I would rather get it out of the way in one chunk, allowing me to play my games with fewer breaks in the action. Sure, playing the game immediately after putting it in the disc tray is instantly gratifying, and using up my finite hard drive space isn’t exactly an exciting proposition, but in the end, all I really care about is performance. If you want your games to be all they can be, you better hope console manufacturers include hard drives in each and every unit they produce in the future. It’s worth the time it takes to move the data from disc to drive.

Jeremy: Installations Schminstallations
Let’s get one thing straight before I start. This isn’t an anti-Playstation 3 rant. If the 360 made me load up my hard drive with mandatory installs, I would be equally pissed. Don’t start with the fanboy crap.

So you scratched and saved for a shiny new 40 gig PS3. You even picked up 3 or 4 new games to play (since you can’t play your old PS2 games). One problem. Installing 4 games on your new PS3 just ate up half your hard drive…Bummer. Why would you want to fill your hard drive with fun stuff like music and illegally downloadedmovies when you can suck up huge chunks of valuable space with files just so you can play your games without lags, loads, and pop-ins? Such is the price to pay when you game with Blu-Ray. As my comrade in arms mentioned above, Blu-Ray discs output data slower than Paris Hilton taking a Calculus test. Mandatory installs aren’t an evolution in gaming, they are a cover-up and quick fix for the lack of speed in the Blu-Ray player. Sony had to do this just so games would be playable on their console. It is a necessity not a extra benefit. Isn’t one reason we love console gaming the ease of pop-in and play gaming without installs or required hardware upgrades? Thought so.

Time Saver?
One of the the biggest positive aspects that fans of HD installations harp on is that it decreases in-game load times. The only problem is that most loading screens last for maybe 30 seconds and the PS3 titles only load a few seconds faster. Wow, 5 gigs of HD space gone so I can get to my game 3 seconds faster? Mr. pro installations David even remarked in his GTA IV comparison article, “Although the PS3 version is able to save and load with less latency, the difference is marginal at best… maybe a second or two tops.” Check and mate Sir David.

So it’s time to do a little math here. The average installation time is around 10 minutes (600 seconds). We’ll be generous and say PS3 load times are 3 seconds quicker on average. To equal out the amount of time saved in loads, a game would have to load 200 times to reach the 10 minute initial installation time. That’s a lot of ****ing loading screens. Look on the bright side mandatory installers, the 10 minute loading time gives you the opportunity to actually read the game manual, meditate, or even nuke a hot-pocket.

The Proof is in the Pixels
After you sacrifice loads of HD space, these games are going to look superior to their 360 counterparts right? Well, not so much. Sure, multi-platform games tend to have a slight graphical edge on the PS3 when push comes to shove, but they are not definitively better looking on the PS3 with mandatory installs. Some games, like Devil May Cry 4 and Oblivion, showed minor improvements to graphical quality as a result of their mandatory installations, whereas most PS3 games that demand you to sacrifice hard drive space and still don’t manage to look or play noticeably better. Critics were split on which console gave GTA IV the better graphical treatment, so the graphical edge of mandatory installs is far from conclusive. If I am forced to give up 5 gigs of storage, my game better damn sure look superior than non-installed versions of the game, and so far this hasn’t always been the case.

“My HD may be full, but I’m dead on the inside.”
With rumors flying around these intertubes about a supposed update for the 360 that will allow installs, the development of hard drive installations is definitely here to stay. However, gamers shouldn’t be forced to sacrifice HD space just to play a game. Sure, hardcore PS3 gamers have already upgraded their hard drives to a million gigs, so the issue of mandatory installs is a moot point, but should gamers really be forced to manually upgrade their units just to play games? What about Johnny Q. Gamer who is unaware of the mandatory installs and subsequently **** out of luck after buying 8 games for his 40 gig PS3? Gamers should have the option to install or play the game out of the box, so they can fill their hard drives with whatever tickles their fancy (for us at TEB, it’s that wacky Japanese porn). What no one wants to say is that the reason the installs are mandatory for the PS3 is because the games would be practically unplayable without them.

How about you good people? What’s your take on required installs for console games? Hate ‘em? Love ‘em? Don’t give a rat’s ass? Let us know! We’re ever so lonely.

http://theexplodingbarrel.com/?p=179

"What about Johnny Q. Gamer who is unaware of the mandatory installs and subsequently **** out of luck after buying 8 games for his 40 gig PS3? Gamers should have the option to install or play the game out of the box, so they can fill their hard drives with whatever tickles their fancy"

Without reading the whole article.. I completely agree with the above. If you want the benefits of installs.. make them optional.. NOT mandatory. I for one wouldnt waste 5 gigs of HD space just to make a game load 2 seconds faster.

That is one thing I hate about the PS3. its almost like they want you to upgrade the HD as big as you can because you can't install all of the games you want to play. My HD got full and I only had like 1 demo on it.

I have the 40GB ps3 and while I only use it to play game and watch movies I have about 27gb of HD space left, a friend of mine on the other hand already has ran out of room from buying new games every week, alot of which has mandatory installs..he had to purchase a back up drive and a new 250gb HD and go through alot of BS to get everything working..I own UT and it gives you the option to install or not..I chose not..I think it should be the gamers choice to install or not. I dont like anything thats MANDATORY

i would love to do installs if it meant that the game was in the optical drive, just for verification, and then i never had to spin up the optical drive again... i f*cking hate my hitachi.

i would love to do installs if it meant that the game was in the optical drive, just for verification, and then i never had to spin up the optical drive again... i f*cking hate my hitachi.

IF I have to have the game in the drive, then why bother with the install.

Until they start putting HDs in there that are over 100GB in size, then no. I'll wait 2 more or 10 more seconds...

I really hope Xbox games don't start using mandatory installs. This is one big advantage the Xbox has over the PS3. And it also defeats the purpose of a game console as oppose to a PC. Surely if the trend continues for the PS3, PS3 owners will soon run out of space and be forced to upgrade. Microsoft can not afford this trend since we are only offered 2 options, a 20 or 120 gig. Both of which are expensive as hell.

As others have stated, I think it should be optional, not mandatory.

You should be able to go back and change that option at any time, I.E. I stopped playing BioShock three months ago and want to free up the 3GB it is taking up on my HD.

Since not all 360's come with a HD the game companies will not make it mandatory, which is the best way. I prefer to have the option, some games I don't mind doing the install and saving the load times and others I don't mind the load times as I usually need a break myself.

Just keep it an option in my opinion. I personally don't really care about the load times. I don't mind because that usually a perfect time to for a bathroom break.

IF I have to have the game in the drive, then why bother with the install.

Until they start putting HDs in there that are over 100GB in size, then no. I'll wait 2 more or 10 more seconds...

Actually Im not sure if you understand his point. He is saying he is okay with optional installs and the disc being in the drive just for verification. In other words, before playing the game the 360 would first check to make sure the game disc is authentic. It would then load all game data from the harddrive.

Running from the harddrive, the disc would no longer be used or spinning. Thus the 360 would run alot QUIETER.. in addition to being smoother gameplay and less load times.

I agree 100% with what he has to say.

There are many pluses for having at least a partial install on the hard drive as mentioned above. I also agree that is should be an available option to those that want it, not manditory. The last thing is it would lessen the chance of wearing out and scratching discs, as the disc would spin less.

i have a 20gb 360 and i'm always running at about 4.5GB open space. thats with all demos, trailers, and crap are removed. huge hdd installs would just kill my drive. i would be open to this only if MS removes the "you must use our expensive drives" rule.

If only MS would remove the restriction that you need to use THEIR hard drive. I should be able to go out and buy any laptop hard drive and slap it in there and it should reformat it and use it. Or attach any external USB hard drive to the thing and it should use that for game storage as well.

Actually Im not sure if you understand his point. He is saying he is okay with optional installs and the disc being in the drive just for verification. In other words, before playing the game the 360 would first check to make sure the game disc is authentic. It would then load all game data from the harddrive.

Running from the harddrive, the disc would no longer be used or spinning. Thus the 360 would run alot QUIETER.. in addition to being smoother gameplay and less load times.

I agree 100% with what he has to say.

You mean, exactly like computer games have been doing since CD drives came out.

In other words, I see his point, just that is not a feature that I value based on the limited HDD in the 360, mine just isn't loud, and load time decreases are marginal at best.

I own both a PS3 and 360 and I really wish the 360 would install games to my hdd so I wouldn't have to listen to that damn thing spin non-stop.

I dunno, I liken this arguement to wether or not Donuts are improved by adding sprinkles onto the frosting or not.

I mean, on the one hand....they're sprinkles.

On the other hand, you're already eating a 3/4lb fried heap of ultra-sweetned sugar and trans fats....are you going to TASTE the sprinkles? No...so....??


Hard Drive Installs: More ******** sent to divert us from the obvious notion that games look nearly the same on both systems, regardless of hard drive installs or blu-ray storage.

Doesn't it just then become a PC?

Actually Im not sure if you understand his point. He is saying he is okay with optional installs and the disc being in the drive just for verification. In other words, before playing the game the 360 would first check to make sure the game disc is authentic. It would then load all game data from the harddrive.

Running from the harddrive, the disc would no longer be used or spinning. Thus the 360 would run alot QUIETER.. in addition to being smoother gameplay and less load times.

I agree 100% with what he has to say.

I don't know how much quieter it will run. I've been primarily using my original premium as a DVD player. And I noticed that while I'm changing out discs it is just as loud as it while playing a movie or game. My Elite is very quiet no matter what is going on. I don't think that getting installs will make it much quieter. Just my opinion with my experience dealing with my 360's.

Yeah that is what I hate about the PS3. Installs. Blah! That was one of the main reasons I left PC gaming. Installs, DRM issues, driver issues, hardware issues, punkbuster issues, DRM rootkits buried in your PC long after the game was uninstalled.

If MS did this it would be a nightmare. They would be forcing folks to upgrade their HDD to the 120 HDD. Which they consider that an upgrade and they will not transfer your license to the new hard drive so that every gamertag on your system can use it. Just you. So then you are basically stuck buying it again if you want it. Not to mention just the price jump of the 120 HDD.

FYI...Now they don't require a "install" but there are a few rare games that require a HDD. Though I think they are only in Japan.

I wonder how it will work though if you just rent the game. Then you can just have a ton of games that you didn't pay full price for.

I wonder how it will work though if you just rent the game. Then you can just have a ton of games that you didn't pay full price for.

Simple solution. Thats the point of making you have the disc in the drive to first verify the games ownership and authenticity.

THEN. The game loads and plays from the harddrive installation.

Yeah that is what I hate about the PS3. Installs. Blah! That was one of the main reasons I left PC gaming. Installs, DRM issues, driver issues, hardware issues, punkbuster issues, DRM rootkits buried in your PC long after the game was uninstalled.

If MS did this it would be a nightmare. They would be forcing folks to upgrade their HDD to the 120 HDD. Which they consider that an upgrade and they will not transfer your license to the new hard drive so that every gamertag on your system can use it. Just you. So then you are basically stuck buying it again if you want it. Not to mention just the price jump of the 120 HDD.

FYI...Now they don't require a "install" but there are a few rare games that require a HDD. Though I think they are only in Japan.


I gotta agree the whole reason I left PC gaming was for the major simplicity of console gaming.

Whats next if we have install will be massive patchs and the fragmented online as person A has verison 2.5 and person B has verison 2.0 etc

The only game I would have liked to see an install on is mass effect and ONLY IF it got rid of those damn elovator rides.
But really I don't want to see games installed I already eat up enough harddrive with demos.

I gotta agree the whole reason I left PC gaming was for the major simplicity of console gaming.

Whats next if we have install will be massive patchs and the fragmented online as person A has verison 2.5 and person B has verison 2.0 etc

The only game I would have liked to see an install on is mass effect and ONLY IF it got rid of those damn elovator rides.
But really I don't want to see games installed I already eat up enough harddrive with demos.

None of this has anything to do with installed games. There are already "massive" patches and map packs for console games. PC has done a lot of things right. I don't understand this whole aversion to anything PC-like.

And the harddrive space issue really is more a problem of MS' crappy harddrive upgrade system and their 100% markup.

Mandatory installs HAVE to go, but it seems doubtful. They are becoming sadly ubiquitous on PS3. Every notable game this year has had a mandatory install IIRC and so does Haze and MGS4.

I am not buying the load time argument, either. Both HSG and GT5P take up huge amounts of HD space but still have loading. Uncharted and Burnout Paradise have no in-game load times and require no install. Both games look great and Paradise has a huge open world.

I wouldn't care so much if these installs were 200-500 megs, like Resistance and R&C: F, but we are talking about 3-5 gig installs here which take up 5%+ of hard drive space! That limits the amount of games you can have on your drive.

So, I think companies COULD adjust their engines and designs so that games could work with no install, or a much smaller one at least, but why do it? People don't seem to care about installs to the point where it affects games on the store shelf. A huge outcry was made about DMC4 but people still bought it.

I don't know how much quieter it will run. I've been primarily using my original premium as a DVD player. And I noticed that while I'm changing out discs it is just as loud as it while playing a movie or game. My Elite is very quiet no matter what is going on. I don't think that getting installs will make it much quieter. Just my opinion with my experience dealing with my 360's.

playing the GRID demo = dead silent

playing GTA4 = DVD drive sounds like a plane.

what is different about the two? the DVD drive is spinning


Whats next if we have install will be massive patchs and the fragmented online as person A has verison 2.5 and person B has verison 2.0 etc


there are already patches, and you install them all the time, without them you are disconnected from xbox live to play your game...

no change there.

you left PC gaming for different reasons, in case you forgot.

1. a comparable pc is expensive
2. upgrading hardware every 3 months is expensive, and sucks
3. cheaters
4. lack of integration with friends and voice communications
5. much more involved process of interfacing your pc with a 50 or 60 in plasma
6. much more involved process integrating peripherals into your hands whilst your butt is integrated in your couch

etc etc.

I am not buying the load time argument, either.

maybe blu-ray 2x readers are too slow?




just give me the OPTION to install a game on my hard drive, thanks. you can't require it because of core/arcade owners, but let them suffer bad loading times, slower frame rates from not having a large cache, etc... eventually they'll buy a hard drive :)

maybe blu-ray 2x readers are too slow?

Hmm, maybe I didn't make it quite clear enough, but I pointed out 2 games without mandatory installs and few load times. And I can point out plenty of 360 games with terrible load times even with their faster DVD drive (Mass Effect for one).

Even if BR is slightly slower than 360 DVD, that doesn't mean its now necessary to install 4 gigs of junk to my HD, taking up 6%-10% of space, and still have significant load times.

There's no reason why so many companies should be forcing these huge installs.

just give me the OPTION to install a game on my hard drive, thanks. you can't require it because of core/arcade owners, but let them suffer bad loading times, slower frame rates from not having a large cache, etc... eventually they'll buy a hard drive

Hmm... I think that is exactly why Microsoft does not allow optional installs. No doubt, if the PS3 is any indication, companies would gimp their games terribly for Core owners and piss off those customers.

Hmm, maybe I didn't make it quite clear enough, but I pointed out 2 games without mandatory installs and few load times. And I can point out plenty of 360 games with terrible load times even with their faster DVD drive (Mass Effect for one).

Even if BR is slightly slower than 360 DVD, that doesn't mean its now necessary to install 4 gigs of junk to my HD, taking up 6%-10% of space, and still have significant load times.

There's no reason why so many companies should be forcing these huge installs.

Pointing out a few games means nothing. They were simply able to be designed in such a way where load times aren't needed. Simply put, the xbox dvd drive is quite loud and the option of being able to install a game to minimize that noise AND decrease load times would be great.

Also, 4GBs of "junk" is 1.5% of my PS3 drive space (250GB) that cost me the exactly same as a 360's 120GB hdd.

Pointing out a few games means nothing. They were simply able to be designed in such a way where load times aren't needed. Simply put, the xbox dvd drive is quite loud and the option of being able to install a game to minimize that noise AND decrease load times would be great.

Also, 4GBs of "junk" is 1.5% of my PS3 drive space (250GB) that cost me the exactly same as a 360's 120GB hdd.

The average joe blow is not thinking or even knows the option to upgrade the hardrive. Plus when does it end as far as size? What happens when it starts getting to 10 gigs requirment for installs? I don't see that being far fetched.

Hmm, maybe I didn't make it quite clear enough, but I pointed out 2 games without mandatory installs and few load times. And I can point out plenty of 360 games with terrible load times even with their faster DVD drive (Mass Effect for one).

i wasnt talking about load times, if the drive cant read fast enough to both load and fill cache in real time, it may be necessary to install a good portion of the game onto the hard drive for the system to keep up, otherwise the BD drive would become a performance bottleneck.

Pointing out a few games means nothing. They were simply able to be designed in such a way where load times aren't needed. Simply put, the xbox dvd drive is quite loud and the option of being able to install a game to minimize that noise AND decrease load times would be great.

Also, 4GBs of "junk" is 1.5% of my PS3 drive space (250GB) that cost me the exactly same as a 360's 120GB hdd.

Well, more games should be designed like that IMO, or in ways to minimize loadtimes. I mean, I remember playing PS1 games with no load times, and PS1 ran on a 2X CD drive with 3.5 megs of memory. I am just saying that mandatory installs suck ass. I didn't say anything about optional installs, which I am fine with, just mandatory installs which are now taking over the PS3.

Your point about the portion of your upgraded hard drive is truly useless - most people don't want to and will not upgrade their hard drive.

Well, more games should be designed like that IMO, or in ways to minimize loadtimes. I mean, I remember playing PS1 games with no load times, and PS1 ran on a 2X CD drive with 3.5 megs of memory. I am just saying that mandatory installs suck ass. I didn't say anything about optional installs, which I am fine with, just mandatory installs which are now taking over the PS3.

Your point about the portion of your upgraded hard drive is truly useless - most people don't want to and will not upgrade their hard drive.

Well there isn't ever going to be mandatory installs on the 360 system since there is a version without a harddrive. However, when they know a harddrive will be on the system I see no problems with them. The same thing happened with PC around 8 years ago. When given the option to install or not, the vast, vast majority chose to install. Developers noticed this and simply made them mandatory. There's no reason to think it would be any different now.

Also, most people may considering upgrading their harddrive size if they were actually using close to all of it. It's not rocket science to do it.

The average joe blow is not thinking or even knows the option to upgrade the hardrive. Plus when does it end as far as size? What happens when it starts getting to 10 gigs requirment for installs? I don't see that being far fetched.

What happens? Oh I don't know, maybe the same thing that has been happening for the last 20 years. Harddrive size increases.

I would really enjoy Motorstorm but I hated the ultra long load times.

Optional Install > Manditory Install > Install Unavailable

For games that can be completely installed to the HD, a generous design would be disc verification only once a week. That way you could flip back and forth between games without getting up.

What happens? Oh I don't know, maybe the same thing that has been happening for the last 20 years. Harddrive size increases.

This isn't about computers.

playing the GRID demo = dead silent

playing GTA4 = DVD drive sounds like a plane.

what is different about the two? the DVD drive is spinning





Well maybe that's your experience but that ain't mine. I blindly believed many that had said that the source of the loudness came from the DVD. I was swapping out a DVD for a game and while the tray was open I noticed the my Premium sounded loud as heck. Then after that I closed the tray to play GoW, and listened and it didn't get any louder. That's when I realized that FOR ME, it didn't matter whether I was playing a game or movie, or whether there was a disc in there or not. The fans drowned out the sound of the spinning discs. My Elite acts the complete opposite. It's completely quiet no matter what I'm doing on it.

This isn't about computers.

And exactly what technology do you think consoles are derived from? Ok, you're right, harddrive size for consoles will never increase, ever. Especially not within the same generation of product.

Ok, you're right, harddrive size for consoles will never increase, ever

When did I ever say that or made a notion of that? How many sku's have both the 360 and PS3 gone through with different hard drives. This is the first generation that started multiple sku's at launch. Your response to my notion about possible 10gigs(we are already at 4-5gig for PS3 games) installs was simply about upgrading the hardrive which the average consumer is not going to care or want to do. AVS is not the average consumer.


And exactly what technology do you think consoles are derived from?

What is your point? It starts with the hardrive so what is next memory, drive speed, GPU's. We are supposed to come full circle with the consoles to go back to how it is now with computers which made the huge difference between the 2 in the first place? That was the whole reason why consoles became so popular. So far the Wii is still closer to that tradition than either the 360 or PS3.

The disc doesn't seem to be the source of noise on my 360. Playing a DVD quite silent (drowned about by my projector)..
Playing a game "loud"
I have to ask for all those of you that complain about noise.. What kind of volume do you have your surround set at? I have my 360 right behind my head/couch and having just finished playing a 2 hour session of COD4 I can't even recall hearing it at all.

I have to agree with the other posters if games like burn out and GTA4 don't require installs (on 360) then why should other games?

The average console user is going to be pretty pissed off when they get home from walmart/futureshop with Halo 4/GTA5 and can't play because they don't have enough harddrive space and have to either take thier console to a repair/upgrade shop or delete other content.

More then half my friends who have 360's don't/didn't have them hooked up to HDTV's when they got thier 360's.

The disc doesn't seem to be the source of noise on my 360. Playing a DVD quite silent (drowned about by my projector)..
Playing a game "loud"
I have to ask for all those of you that complain about noise.. What kind of volume do you have your surround set at? I have my 360 right behind my head/couch and having just finished playing a 2 hour session of COD4 I can't even recall hearing it at all.

I have to agree with the other posters if games like burn out and GTA4 don't require installs (on 360) then why should other games?

The average console user is going to be pretty pissed off when they get home from walmart/futureshop with Halo 4/GTA5 and can't play because they don't have enough harddrive space and have to either take thier console to a repair/upgrade shop or delete other content.

More then half my friends who have 360's don't/didn't have them hooked up to HDTV's when they got thier 360's.

But they are actually talking about a prequal to the Halo series coming out Fall 09.

Well maybe that's your experience but that ain't mine. I blindly believed many that had said that the source of the loudness came from the DVD. I was swapping out a DVD for a game and while the tray was open I noticed the my Premium sounded loud as heck. Then after that I closed the tray to play GoW, and listened and it didn't get any louder. That's when I realized that FOR ME, it didn't matter whether I was playing a game or movie, or whether there was a disc in there or not. The fans drowned out the sound of the spinning discs. My Elite acts the complete opposite. It's completely quiet no matter what I'm doing on it.

Xbox 360s are not built well or consistently. The noise factor differs from unit to unit. For MOST, however, the biggest problem is in fact the DVD noise.

Xbox 360s are not built well or consistently. The noise factor differs from unit to unit. For MOST, however, the biggest problem is in fact the DVD noise.

yep, and swapping out your noisy fan is much more plausible than me swapping out my dvd drive.

I believe in optional installs. Making it mandatory and making people wait nearly half an hour on games is ridiculous.

You do know that both the original Xbox and Xbox 360 already does cache data from the DVD onto the hard drive. The original cached I believe the last 3 games played and the 360 caches data from the last 4 games. Try loading up a new game sometime and see how long it takes to start. Then load it again and see if it's quicker next time. From the original Xbox days if someone had a problem with a game they were quite often told to load 3 different games, then go back to the one that had the problem and it will load fresh from the DVD again rather than load parts of the game from the hard drive. There are also controller codes that can be entered to clear this cache entirely

This of course is to speed up frequently accessed data from the DVD (initial loading and game menus is obviously the first thing that is stored on your hard drive). This is also one of the reasons why part of the hard disk space is not available for user storage. When you have 13 GB free out of an empty 20 GB drive, part of that missing space is reserved for game caching. This feature is built into the consoles for all games.