I have a 8G Pioneer plasma. In certain games, fast movement (spinning on the spot) can often result in a double image. Maybe there is a bit of blur but I often see a double image. Panning while viewing white text against a black background is a good example - I see a ghost image of the text. I heard this double image may be due to glass reflection inside the tv. Is this correct? Is it an inherent limitation of plasma or will this be sorted out in future plasmas?

I think you might be talking about the phosphor trail. As in a yellow/green ghost of a moving image. If that's the case, yes that is a plasma tech "deficiency."

I've seen a video of Gears of War on an older model plasma showing phosphor trails. In the text example I mentioned in my original post I am not seeing a trial, segmented into different colors, but rather a distinct ghost image. Hence I don't think this is a phosphor trail....or am I mistaken???

I know what you are talking about. if I stand really close, and look at an angle, I can see an image "behind" the image, that definitely looks like it's just a reflection due to the glass. But it's not at all visible during normal viewing, can you see it during normal viewing? I don't expect that this would be "fixed".

It is the use of two panes of glass, I think.
Which is why single pane displays such as Kuro's do not suffer from it.

I don't directly see a double image in normal viewing (tv, movies). However, given that I can see it games it makes me wonder what effect it is having on normal viewing. Perhaps some of the "blur" I/we see in movies is not present (or only partially present) in the source material and the rest is being caused by reflections. (My considerably smaller CRT certainly seems better with motion but I'm sure this is at least partially due to the differences in size.)

My plasma is a Kuro and hence the issue still arises in these displays.

It is the use of two panes of glass, I think.
Which is why single pane displays such as Kuro's do not suffer from it.

exactly

You're not using Pure Cinema Advanced when you play video games are you?

chadmak,

As I mention above, my plasma is a Kuro.

You're not using Pure Cinema Advanced when you play video games are you?

Nope.

Had your eyes checked lately?

Single glass yields no internal reflections. So whatever you're seeing may not be truly onscreen.

Just a thought.

If you have a Kuro, a Xbox 360 and Bioshock, go to the map screen of Bioshock and do a fast pan. You should be able to see that the text of that screen has a clear double image during panning.

This is just an example. It is easiest to see with clearly defined bright objects against a dark background.

Could it be that you are just seeing the decay of the phosphors?

Believe it or not even plasma phosphors have a response/decay time. This would be ESPECIALLY apparent with black on white/white on black types of materials.

I don't want to seem like I am starting a LCD VS Plasma thing here, but maybe some of you should research the physics of your favorite display. If this was an LCD all of the plasma fanboys here would be yelling at the top of their lungs about motion blur and response time and how LCD's were horrible. Now we see that even the mighty Kuro can have issues in the right circumstances.

some games also have built in motion blur with a pan, so sometimes it's that too.

To the last 2 posters:

I don't believe it is due to phosphor decay as I can see a distinct ghost image and there is no trail between the image and its ghost. I'm not seeing a blur in these examples.

To the last 2 posters:

I don't believe it is due to phosphor decay as I can see a distinct ghost image and there is no trail between the image and its ghost. I'm not seeing a blur in these examples.

OK I can buy that. Signal? Scaler? Once you eliminate the easy ones like motion blur it gets really difficult. Could be a physical attribute of the set (I doubt that a Kuro would have such a problem) or it is somewhere in the electronics or signal.

Some things you can do, change cables, set the set for 720 instead of 1080. Just test to see if it is better or worse with some settings.

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'll post in the plasma section of the forum and see if anyone else has any ideas.

Zzzzz, I guess you don't get it. Pioneer kuros are perfect. Anything visibly less than that is your eyes or the source or both. :rolleyes:
Ok, l think it's possible that the kuro may be suffering from the double image thing you see on other plasmas with dual pane panels. Though Pioneer only uses one glass, they also use some kind of plastic type of material instead of that second glass. Just speculation on my part but that could be the culprit.
With that said, the double image experienced can only be noticed at very sharp angles and only in certain situations.

Zzzzz, I tried you're example of the map screen in Bioshock on my 5080 and did not see any ghosting or double image. I have my X360 set to 720p since almost all games are not 1080p. I don't think it would be signal related since all my signals go through my receiver.

Zzzzz, I guess you don't get it. Pioneer kuros are perfect. Anything visibly less than that is your eyes or the source or both. :rolleyes:


Well now.

Here we have it.

Straight from another owners mouth (wsfanatic).

No double imaging with text...using the exact same scenario provided.

Gee, maybe it has NOTHING to do with (insert discopaul sarcasm) Pioneer perfection but instead individual eyeballs as someone (oops, that would be me :p) already posted.

Try again.

This is an easy problem to explain if I am right (if not I'll just look foolish, but this hasn't been mentioned yet so....), what games are you seeing this in? It almost sounds like 30fps judder (the lower framerate skips during a fast pan, 60fps remains smooth) this Judder looks almost exactly like you are describing. Compare Gears vs CoD4 as a comparison of the ghost image that you are seeing, one should produce the double image (Gears) the other should be smooth (CoD4)

The phosphor trails actually show this judder as well, in Gears (a 30 fps game) the ghosting isn't smooth but is jumpy, in Call of Duty 4 (60fps) it is smooth and consistant.

Zzzzz, just out of curiousity, do you have any enhancements on? I leave every Pro Adjustment "off" with the exception of PureCinema which I leave set to "Standard."

Zzzzz, I guess you don't get it. Pioneer kuros are perfect. Anything visibly less than that is your eyes or the source or both. :rolleyes:
Ok, l think it's possible that the kuro may be suffering from the double image thing you see on other plasmas with dual pane panels. Though Pioneer only uses one glass, they also use some kind of plastic type of material instead of that second glass. Just speculation on my part but that could be the culprit.
With that said, the double image experienced can only be noticed at very sharp angles and only in certain situations.

Well I certainly like my Kuro a lot. However, a few things bug me a little, like the double image business. It would great if in the future this problem disappeared. Do plasmas have to have a second pane of glass/plastic?

I don't require sharp angles to experience double images. In fact I see them sitting right in front.

Zzzzz, I tried you're example of the map screen in Bioshock on my 5080 and did not see any ghosting or double image. I have my X360 set to 720p since almost all games are not 1080p. I don't think it would be signal related since all my signals go through my receiver.

OK thats strange. I have a 1080p model plasma. I connect to my Xbox 360 via HDMI and experience ghosting on the Bioshock map screen regardless of whether the Xbox is set to 720p or 1080p. I'm at a loss as to why we don't both see the same thing...

Well now.

Here we have it.

Straight from another owners mouth (wsfanatic).

No double imaging with text...using the exact same scenario provided.

Gee, maybe it has NOTHING to do with (insert discopaul sarcasm) Pioneer perfection but instead individual eyeballs as someone (oops, that would be me :p) already posted.

Try again.

Well it is of course possible that my eyes/brain see things differently...

This is an easy problem to explain if I am right (if not I'll just look foolish, but this hasn't been mentioned yet so....), what games are you seeing this in? It almost sounds like 30fps judder (the lower framerate skips during a fast pan, 60fps remains smooth) this Judder looks almost exactly like you are describing. Compare Gears vs CoD4 as a comparison of the ghost image that you are seeing, one should produce the double image (Gears) the other should be smooth (CoD4)

The phosphor trails actually show this judder as well, in Gears (a 30 fps game) the ghosting isn't smooth but is jumpy, in Call of Duty 4 (60fps) it is smooth and consistant.

I don't have CoD4 but I have experienced double image in Halo 3. I have Gears but I can't recall if I experienced double image or not.

In Bioshock I haven't seen any evidence of judder... Not sure if the following is relevant or not: in the Bioshock map screen, faster panning creates greater separation between the original text and its ghost.

Are you suggesting that the ghost image I see is simply a result of phosphor decay of the prior frame rather than some sort of reflection?

Zzzzz, just out of curiousity, do you have any enhancements on? I leave every Pro Adjustment "off" with the exception of PureCinema which I leave set to "Standard."

No, all enhancements are off, as is PureCinema.

I just recalled something interesting: a while back I was playing Halo 3 on my CRT (rather than my plasma) and also experienced the same double image problem. At the time I think I put it down to CRTs being interlaced rather than progressive displays. Perhaps this is the explanation in the case of my CRT or perhaps, for both my CRT and my Kuro, I'm just seeing phosphor decay of the prior frame??

I don't have CoD4 but I have experienced double image in Halo 3. I have Gears but I can't recall if I experienced double image or not.

In Bioshock I haven't seen any evidence of judder... Not sure if the following is relevant or not: in the Bioshock map screen, faster panning creates greater separation between the original text and its ghost.

Are you suggesting that the ghost image I see is simply a result of phosphor decay of the prior frame rather than some sort of reflection?

All the games that you mentioned are 30fps, so this could easily be the problem, which would make it a source issue, not a issue with the Kuro. I see this same low framerate Judder on my Panasonic plasma, and my LCD PC monitor when showing low framerate games. I describe it as Judder because it breaks up the smooth motion of the video, which is what you are describing above. You are probably very sensitive to low framerates like many of us are. Get Call of Duty 4 and give it a try, it should get rid of the blur you are seeing.

This has nothing to do with phosphor decay, it is just a low framerate of a particular game showing it's limitations during fast motion. (which is why Infinity Ward who developed CoD4 refuses to do anything in a game that reduces the framerate below 60fps, anything less takes you out of the experience)

It is defintely not normal. I gamed on my 5080 and now on my 1150 and have NEVER seen a double image.
I wish I could help further but can't. Best of luck!

All the games that you mentioned are 30fps, so this could easily be the problem, which would make it a source issue, not a issue with the Kuro. I see this same low framerate Judder on my Panasonic plasma, and my LCD PC monitor when showing low framerate games. I describe it as Judder because it breaks up the smooth motion of the video, which is what you are describing above. You are probably very sensitive to low framerates like many of us are. Get Call of Duty 4 and give it a try, it should get rid of the blur you are seeing.

This has nothing to do with phosphor decay, it is just a low framerate of a particular game showing it's limitations during fast motion. (which is why Infinity Ward who developed CoD4 refuses to do anything in a game that reduces the framerate below 60fps, anything less takes you out of the experience)

I will get CoD4 at some stage and have a look. Note however that, as I mentioned before, I haven't experienced judder in the traditional sense of the word. Everything in Bioshock including the map screen seem perfectly smooth to me. Perhaps I am not understanding what you mean by judder.

It is defintely not normal. I gamed on my 5080 and now on my 1150 and have NEVER seen a double image.
I wish I could help further but can't. Best of luck!

No problem - thanks for your input

Never mind, i was having the same thing as the OT, but then i read this

All the games that you mentioned are 30fps, so this could easily be the problem, which would make it a source issue, not a issue with the Kuro. I see this same low framerate Judder on my Panasonic plasma, and my LCD PC monitor when showing low framerate games. I describe it as Judder because it breaks up the smooth motion of the video, which is what you are describing above. You are probably very sensitive to low framerates like many of us are. Get Call of Duty 4 and give it a try, it should get rid of the blur you are seeing.

This has nothing to do with phosphor decay, it is just a low framerate of a particular game showing it's limitations during fast motion. (which is why Infinity Ward who developed CoD4 refuses to do anything in a game that reduces the framerate below 60fps, anything less takes you out of the experience)

and i give COD4 a tried and it Amazingly smooth. i can read the signs on the streets while panning while looking around really fast, amazing, now i see what they are talking about the Plasma response. (i got my plasma today) i used to game on lcd btw, i don´t see myself going back now! lol

OT, give COD4 a try and let us know if you are experiencing on that game as well, i guess this is because the games you are trying are 30FPS as Pendragon said.

as said in previous posts, its obviously plasma decay due to the green, red and blue phosphors taking different times to fade.

a computer game does not smoothly progress from one frame to the next, that is why the ghosting is disjointed rather than a smooth blur.

there are screenshots all over the net with this problem, go check them out.

Your setup is all wrong. Tryit with a PS3 and a Panny and see what happens. J/K Seriously though is plasma decay something that happens over the lifespan of a plasma display or just an inherent characteristic? My Panny has double imaging in certain light and viewing angles because of the anti glare coating or double glass I'm guessing.

It is the use of two panes of glass, I think.
Which is why single pane displays such as Kuro's do not suffer from it.


i remember a sales guy telling me that the pioneer "elites" don't have the standard double image in all plasmas

I will get CoD4 at some stage and have a look. Note however that, as I mentioned before, I haven't experienced judder in the traditional sense of the word. Everything in Bioshock including the map screen seem perfectly smooth to me. Perhaps I am not understanding what you mean by judder.

Right, it isn't traditional Judder, it is more like a breaking up of the smooth motion a game should have, it stays smooth in motion, but looks broken up to the eyes. As others have stated and confirmed, your problem is most likely with 30fps content, and you need to try a 60 fps game to confirm that this is the case. CoD2 or 4 are great tests for 60fps video (#3 wasn't developed by infinity ward so I can't recommend it along the same lines as 2 and 4) I'm not sure about this yet but Ninja Gaiden 2 might be 60fps (Sigma for the PS3 was and is in my opinion the best 60fps TV blur test out there) Rent one of them and give it a try, you might be surprised with how smooth it looks.

There aren't many 60fps games left out there sadly, most gamers don't notice the difference (but many of us can, and do) and most Dev's just don't put in the extra effort anymore so you will probably have to learn to live with it sadly. :(

Read: Madden series. If they would fix the framerate it would be a great game - imo.

Here is a link to the related thread I started in the main plasma forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13957956

It contains some interesting comments.

This is why CRTs are STILL the holy grail to Hardcore Gamers.

Except that they are too small and you must sit so close that your eyes go batty.

This is why CRTs are STILL the holy grail to Hardcore Gamers.

They have this exact same problem with 30 fps motion as well.

They have this exact same problem with 30 fps motion as well.
So basically all 30FPS games will do this on plasma?
Then why people claim plasma is better for gaming, this seems to be the same as bluring on lcd.

people should say plasma is better for 60FPS games instead.

Correct me if i´m wrong.

So basically all 30FPS games will do this on plasma?
Then why people claim plasma is better for gaming, this seems to be the same as bluring on lcd.

people should say plasma is better for 60FPS games instead.

Correct me if i´m wrong.

LCD blur can hide some of the Judder, but it is still there. 120hz motion tech (AMP....) will bust this Judder if it truly annoys you. (but you will still have motion blur)

i´m still trying to find out the "plasma is better for motion scenes".
the only game i saw this was COD4 because it´s 60hz and it worked PERFECTLY, but all 30FPS games actually look worst than on lcd, because i can see this "double image".