I am in dire need of help because I cannot decide on a television. I'm a college student, been saving for 7 months now and saved right at $2000 for a television purchase.

I watch mostly sports and play 360, but would like to hook up my computer up to a television to watch movies and television shows.

Now gets to the part where you come in. Here's what I've accomplished
-I'd like 50'+
-dark room so glare doesn't matter
-under or around 2k
-ability to hook up computer

plasma scares me, just because I read video games aren't great and burn in, since ESPN feels necessary to have a ticker on 24/7

lcd has motion blur, but better for video games

there it is, what I've been thinking, investigating about for the past 4 hours today and par for the past couple weeks.

the 52a550 is the leading candidate as of now.

and one last thing, is burn in covered by store warranties?

Burn in isn't covered by warranty, I game on plasma (and many other people on this forum do as well ... search the forum b/c this has been covered at length countless times). I have never seen burn-in on my games or anyone elses, the new plasmas are much better about that. Most of the panels will have an HDMI input, the only question will be if it will accept the native resolution of your PC. If not you need someway to get the PC to output a resolution the TV likes (using powerstrip for example or getting a video card that does it directly). At 2000 there are plenty of plasmas or LCDs in the 50" to choose from. Most people here like panasonic for plasma in 50" (pioneer too, but that iwll be more than 2k). Good luck

Go LCD, young man. You have indentified the best selling series properly. Some will tell you that LCDs are not as good as plasmas. That is simply bunk unless you use some fancy color and light meters only the pros can afford. You will enjoy being free from any concern about burn-in. Getting rid of a lamp-based RPTV with that nagging feeling that it can blow any day is a good example of what a liberating feeling it is. Kind of like having an unlimited calling plan so you never worry about your next bill.

LCDs are not as good as plasmas.:D I say this in jest but I do really believe it to be true. Everyone has their own criteria and some prefer one technology or the other but in the OP's situation, I would recommend plasma.

LCDs are not as good as plasmas.:D I say this in jest but I do really believe it to be true. Everyone has their own criteria and some prefer one technology or the other but in the OP's situation, I would recommend plasma.

Id agree, though there are pros and cons to both technologies, LCD has progressed a lot the last few years, better light uniformity, response times, viewing angle etc... but alas im a plasma man. OP check out the panasonic 1080p 50" plasmas (glare coated or not).

Go LCD.. I'm a plasma man, but I know the benefits you'd have from LCD.. Especially used as a comp monitor!! The price point of 46-52" lcds are good. I'd look at the V series from Sony, or the 550 from Samsung.

Go LCD, young man. You have indentified the best selling series properly. Some will tell you that LCDs are not as good as plasmas. That is simply bunk unless you use some fancy color and light meters only the pros can afford. You will enjoy being free from any concern about burn-in. Getting rid of a lamp-based RPTV with that nagging feeling that it can blow any day is a good example of what a liberating feeling it is. Kind of like having an unlimited calling plan so you never worry about your next bill.

what he said, absolutely!!!

If you can, I'd even consider a 120Hz LCD, since those will bring the best motion out of gaming. Look at a Samsung A650 or Sony W4100 for perhaps the best bang for the buck when it comes to 120Hz refresh rates.

i really appreciate all the help guys. i think plasma would look better, however after reading the pros and cons of each and the above posts, i think i will go LCD.

my question now is this, is there a huge difference in 60 and 120 hz? If so, how is the price being forcasted over the next quarter?

Go LCD, young man. You have indentified the best selling series properly. Some will tell you that LCDs are not as good as plasmas. That is simply bunk unless you use some fancy color and light meters only the pros can afford. You will enjoy being free from any concern about burn-in. Getting rid of a lamp-based RPTV with that nagging feeling that it can blow any day is a good example of what a liberating feeling it is. Kind of like having an unlimited calling plan so you never worry about your next bill.

I was in the same boat and have decided to go with plasma. I choose not to "settle" for image blur, flashlights and clouding. I was going to buy an LCD ( the LN52A650 Sammy but the TOC (red..yuck!) the backlight uniformity issues and any concern of blur swayed me from it. PQ to me is numero uno so I am going to purchase a Pioneer Pro 151...Yeeeeahhhh booooiii!:D

lcd all the way. especially if you're going to use it with a pc.

Go LCD, young man. You have indentified the best selling series properly. Some will tell you that LCDs are not as good as plasmas. That is simply bunk unless you use some fancy color and light meters only the pros can afford. You will enjoy being free from any concern about burn-in. Getting rid of a lamp-based RPTV with that nagging feeling that it can blow any day is a good example of what a liberating feeling it is. Kind of like having an unlimited calling plan so you never worry about your next bill.


LOL.
I think you mean, in 'your' opinion.


OP....in 'my' opinion if you are worried about motion resolution and blur, then plasma is a no brainer.

Gotta agree with Eagles, I went with plasma and couldn't be happier. Big gamer and sports guy. Here's my advice: spend the little extra coin and buy locally rather than online, and bring in the LCD of your choice and test drive it for a few weeks. Then return it and do the same thing with plasma. You could take your 360/PS3 to a store and try out TVs in store, but I'm going to guess that the room your TV is going into be a little different than a large empty warehouse. Ask around about restocking fees though, that can kill this idea instantly. Costco is very nice about this if you have one in your area. My 0.02

Again, LCD fanboys coming on here spouting nonsense about burn-in from how many years ago as if the issue still exists. Until motion blur is eliminated from LCD it is a useless technology to many. Combine that with serious backlight bleeding and you've got one flat panel customer who knows that Plaz is best for his needs. It isn't perfect but I can watch it any time of day or night without jumping through any special hoops and certainly without living in denial about major PQ problems clearly obvious onscreen with LCD.

Whenever a suitable replacement to plaz does appear which doesn't require whistling past the graveyard to live with, let me know,

And finally, we arrive to the same point that all "should I buy LCD or plasma" threads ultimately reach .... hopefully OP knows what to get now. Once these threads reach this point they just vacillate.

i wish there was some medium :(.

i feel more lost now than i did before :p

Most people go with plasma for PQ which I have. I use it mostly for computer use and movies and have not had any issues. I Don't know much about new LCD tech but most people want the best picture possible. If you want my opinion I would get a plasma since you said you would be mostly watching television. But in reality do your home work and let your eyes decide.

i wish there was some medium :(.

i feel more lost now than i did before :p

If its any help i have a 32" lcd which i use for tv in the bedroom, its not bad, but ive not gamed on it. I also have a 50" panasonic plasma (i had a 42" 480 panasonic about 4yrs ago too) and i game on it (wii, ps3 and xbox) and have not had any burn issues... looooong rockband sessions too. Only once did i see burn and almost cried but it was just memory retention from my dish box shutting off.

i wish there was some medium :(.

i feel more lost now than i did before :p

Sorry for adding to any confusion. :)

If the 52a550 is your leading candidate then you're more than halfway there. Don't sweat the process. Just buy the darn thing from somewhere with a decent return policy just in case.

Hope things work out.

Getting rid of a lamp-based RPTV with that nagging feeling that it can blow any day is a good example of what a liberating feeling it is. Kind of like having an unlimited calling plan so you never worry about your next bill.

Uh you are aware that DLP got rid of lamps a while back...right? LED based DLP...ever heard of it?:D:D

Actually for the most part DLP still uses lamps.
DLP PJ's use lamps and Sasmung makes both LED and lamp based models of their RPTV DLP's.
I can't believe you made me agree with ramazur as I find his posts rude and distasteful, as well as often being just an unfounded opinion.

I have to go wash my hands now.

Actually for the most part DLP still uses lamps.
DLP PJ's use lamps and Sasmung makes both LED and lamp based models of their RPTV DLP's.
I can't believe you made me agree with ramazur as I find his posts rude and distasteful, as well as often being just an unfounded opinion.

I have to go wash my hands now.

In my comments to the original post I used a couple of throw away analogies. A good analogy works most of the time so there is nothing inherently wrong with the method. Except here. If you make a point contrary to the group-think, the responses are as predictable as the last one: ignore the main point and object to the side bar.

Here is the main point addressed to the OP: as long as the companies like Samsung include the text below in their manuals, the problem of burn-in exists. Otherwise, why would Samsung choose to scare potential customers away with this, rather ominous warning:

Wide screen format PDP Displays (16:9, the aspect ratio of the screen width to height) are primarily designed to view wide screen format full-motion video. The images displayed on them should primarily be in the wide screen 16:9 ratio format, or expanded to fill the screen if your model offers this feature and the images are constantly moving. Displaying stationary
graphics and images on screen, such as the dark side-bars on nonexpanded standard format television video and programming, should be limited to no more than 5% of the total television viewing per week.

Additionally, viewing other stationary images and text such as stock market reports, video game displays, station logos, web sites or computer graphics and patterns, should be limited as described above for all televisions. Displaying stationary images that exceed the above guidelines can cause uneven aging of PDP Displays that leave subtle, but permanent burned-in ghost images in the PDP picture. To avoid this, vary the programming and images, and primarily display full screen moving images, not stationary atterns or dark bars.

On PDP models that offer picture sizing features, use these controls to view different formats as a full screen picture. Be careful in the selection and duration of television formats used for viewing. Uneven PDP aging as a result of format selection and use, as well as burned-in images, are not covered by your Samsung limited warranty.

The above text is a direct cut-and-paste from a Samsung user manual for 50A550 plasma TV.

One simple explanation is that it was thrown in there by a Samsung LCD fanboy who hates plasmas. Eagles, please forgive me for a little sarcasm.

OP, I feel your pain. I too have no clue which set to pull the trigger on. I am stuck on the fence between a 40 in v4100 sony lcd, and a 42 in panny plasma (TH-42PZ80U). I have researched both quite a bit and just cant make up my mind. I want to make my own "which tv do I get thread", but it seems in the end I have to make the final decision. Anyways, mind if I ride your coat tails in here for a little and see if someone chimes in with something that might help both of us out? Thanks

OP, I feel your pain. I too have no clue which set to pull the trigger on. I am stuck on the fence between a 40 in v4100 sony lcd, and a 42 in panny plasma (TH-42PZ80U). I have researched both quite a bit and just cant make up my mind. I want to make my own "which tv do I get thread", but it seems in the end I have to make the final decision. Anyways, mind if I ride your coat tails in here for a little and see if someone chimes in with something that might help both of us out? Thanks

ride them to the promised land sir, maybe together we can make up our minds. what would you be using yours for?

It would be a mix of sd and directv hd. It will also see gaming time on a ps3. I just want the nicest picture I can afford, and I really cant rationalize spending more than 1500 on a tv. People have good things to say about both of them. But I have a feeling the panny plasma has a more crt like image. Then again the sony is a brand new model and is probably excellent as well. I hope someone gives us the magic answer.

like I have said before and will say again.
I went and bought the Sony XBR4 and the Samsung LNT5271F (two of the best LCD's ever made). I loved them until one day I watched a Pioneer Kuro Plasma 5080 (the non-1080p kuro). All my opinions changed about LCD and plasma. I started to understand what alot of these guys on AVS were talking about when they said how much better plasma looks and how the "burn in hype" is mostly pushed upon buyers by salesmen with high LCD profit margins. On todays high end plasmas it simply is a non-issue if you use the orbitor/pixelshifters built in the technology.
I say again: Burn in is a non-issue with todays plasmas. Don't believe the LCD fanboys bologna. I have went into many of the Pioneer and panasonic threads and asked "has anyone here actually experienced burn-in on thier newer pioneer/panasonic plasma set??" I have yet to find one person who has.
Plasmas do pretty much everything better than LCD. contrast, color depth, fast motion (sports), black levels, etc.
LCDs have bad viewing angles, motion blurr/smearing/ghosting, flashlighting, uneven backlighting, clouding,etc. And 120hz does not help with these issues. IMO, not only does 120hz not help, but it creates more artifacts like the clear "aurora" or "vapors" coming off of people during movies (you 120hz lcd owners know what I am talking about).
To quote another AV member: A display technology that uses individual pixel lighting (plasma) instead of a backlighting for illumination (LCD) just flat out looks better.

Go with Plasma. Dont waste your money/time on LCD only to find out you should have got a plasma.
Do the research: you will find that picture quality is much better with plasma.
Read the Reviews: Cnet, sound and vision magazine, gizmodo, hdtv magazine, etc all agree that even the best LCDs on the market do not have the PQ of plasma.
here is a good website for reference:

http://whychooseplasma.com.au/html/

On todays high end plasmas

Would you consider a TH-42PZ80U panny plasma to be high end?

chadmak, what kind of problem is image retention then? what kind of hours must an image be up to get burn in? there are times when me and my roommates trade off the x360 and its on for 8 hours straight. I'm wondering if i would spend mroe time worrying about the tv than actually watching it

Not chadmak ... but I'll give you an example. My set is three years old with 11.5K hours. While I'm not a gamer I have watched a ton of 4:3 and have had business channel tickers and ESPN tickers and side bar info on for many hours during the day. No burn in.

What I do get is image retention (inherent to the tech) where what was last onscreen stays a very short while until new viewing content removes it. I keep my screen saving feature to orbiter. My set cycles twice on power on/off. The first cycle either way gives a light greyish/black screen on which whatever you last saw onscreen in terms of graphics can often be seen. This immediately disappears with new content. If the last channel viewed had no bars or tickers or prominent logos I see nothing at all. Again, no burn-in with a 3 year old set after 11,500 hours.

And the new plaz sets are far superior to mine in this regard, so much so that many do not feel the need for screen saving options.

chadmak, what kind of problem is image retention then? what kind of hours must an image be up to get burn in? there are times when me and my roommates trade off the x360 and its on for 8 hours straight. I'm wondering if i would spend mroe time worrying about the tv than actually watching it

On my pioneer 5080 I rarely ever saw I.R.
I play COD4 a whole lot and work 2nd shift so I fall asleep on my recliner alot and the image will be left on the screen for sometime up to 10 hours. The worse I.R. I ever had on the 5080 only stayed on the screen for about 2 mintues after watching regular programming. And the only way I could see the I.R. is if the screen was totally black (no input). As soon as the pixels start working again it went away quick. I experience the same thing on my sony LCD.
I.R. is more likely on plasma definitly but its a super small price to pay for superior PQ. I would take a little I.R. anyday over clouding and uneven backlight bleedthru.

Now on my cheap walmart Phillips plasma, I.R. is more common, but still goes away after a few minutes of regular viewing. And I fall asleep playing PS# on the phillips also and still no perma-burn-in.

Its not totally nessesary, but if you get a newer highend plasma I would recommend downloading and burnig the break-in dvd and use it for the first 150 hours or so. If you do this, the possibility of burn-in is reduced even more and you age the phosphor in the pixels uniformly across the screen. Most people don't use the break-in disk and have had no problems whatsoever, so its not totally nessesary but why not do it just to be safe. Anything that can possibly impove the TV is worth doing.

chadmak, what kind of problem is image retention then? what kind of hours must an image be up to get burn in? there are times when me and my roommates trade off the x360 and its on for 8 hours straight. I'm wondering if i would spend mroe time worrying about the tv than actually watching it

If you read ramazur's direct quote from the Samsung book you do realize that burn in is still a potential problem.

If you have a 360, it is capable of 1080 and 720, right? What I have not heard here from any of the FANBOYS on either side is this, are the games that you play displayed in HD or SD? Do they all have sidebars, or are they full screen displays?

If most of the games you do are a "full screen" display go for the plasma, if most of the games are SD or not using the full screen, then go for the LCD. There is no right choice that can be defined by the fanboy arguments above, just what is correct for you.

What you will find is that plasma will give you better dark detail. This is usefull in allot of RPG games where you can get shot by something in the dark (Halo1/2/3, Gears of War, etc...). It can be difficult on a LCD to see the detail in a dark scene and see where the bad aliens are hiding.

What you find on a LCD is better and brighter colors from brightly lit scenes. Detail on brigtly lit scenes is better on a LCD. Good for sports games, racing etc...

What I have found here on the forum is that there are allot of people who seem to want to not really watch what is on the screen of their TV, but more to the point spend time debating how it looks, color, blur, trails, burn in, etc....

Does anybody sit down and watch 2 and a half men on Monday night and laugh at the tasteless humor or do you look for blur, measure the color gamut and check for light levels in dark scenes? It is much more fun to laugh than to be obsessive about how the show is displayed.

IF you want the best it's a Pioneer Kuro.
If you want a very good LCD, it's the sammy 650/750.
-imo

Well, the good thing is, with more modern, more high-end LCDs, much like the Samsung ToC Series LCDs, motion blur is almost non-existant, since AMP can be turned on to almost eliminate it. Plus that 4ms response time doesn't hurt, either.

IF you want the best it's a Pioneer Kuro.
If you want a very good LCD, it's the sammy 650/750.
-imo
I would agree with both of those choices. May change in the near future as new LCD and Plasma models come out, but for now it's good.

Problem is that I don't think the OP can afford either of these choices.

You can find a 650 for $2K and you can find one Kuro(5080) for $2K and one for just over $2K(1150).
I was under the impression that was his budget.

And as you pointed out this was just as of today, not considering future released panels.

My post #22 includes an excerpt from a Samsung owner's manual. The quoted paragraphs warn about the possibility of a permanent damage - burn-in - that may result from improper use as defined in the manual. This is clearly at odds with the opinions held by an overwhelming majority here.

Prompted by my curiousity why would Samsung deliberately undermine their sales by being so negative about the things they make I called them today at 800-SUMSUNG. This is how it went:

Me: I just read that today plasma sets are safe from burn-in. Your manual says they are not. What gives?

CS: They are better than they used to be but you can still cause a permanent damage if, for example, you get a phone call, stop the movie and leave it there stopped for three hours.

Me: You mean I will have a case of a temporary IR?

CS: No, it will be permanent.

Me: What about LCDs?

CS: Theoretically, LCDs can be damaged too but it takes a lot more to do it.

Now, at this point you, the reader, can assume one of these possibilities:

1. I am a liar and no such conversation ever took place. The problem for me would be that I cited an unimpeachable source that anyone can get in touch with and prove me to be a lowly liar.

2. The CS and the person who wrote the manual lied. Personally, I consider this scenario highly unlikely.

3. The Samsung legal deparment instructed the author and the CS to lie unmoved by the fact that it would undercut the company sales.

4. The CS is just one dumb chick and as such she is clueless - one of the favorite terms used around here as a putdown. Judging from the way she spoke she one very well informed but I could be wrong.

5. She told the truth about plasmas and I am telling the truth about the conversation.

Next time I call Samsung I will try to record the conversation and produce a sworn transcript.

My post #22 includes an excerpt from a Samsung owner's manual. The quoted paragraphs warn about the possibility of a permanent damage - burn-in - that may result from improper use as defined in the manual. This is clearly at odds with the opinions held by an overwhelming majority here.

Prompted by my curiousity why would Samsung deliberately undermine their sales by being so negative about the things they make I called them today at 800-SUMSUNG. This is how it went:

Me: I just read that today plasma sets are safe from burn-in. Your manual says they are not. What gives?

CS: They are better than they used to be but you can still cause a permanent damage if, for example, you get a phone call, stop the movie and leave it there stopped for three hours.

Me: You mean I will have a case of a temporary IR?

CS: No, it will be permanent.

Me: What about LCDs?

CS: Theoretically, LCDs can be damaged too but it takes a lot more to do it.

Now, at this point you, the reader, can assume one of these possibilities:

1. I am a liar and no such conversation ever took place. The problem for me would be that I cited an unimpeachable source that anyone can get in touch with and prove me to be a lowly liar.

2. The CS and the person who wrote the manual lied. Personally, I consider this scenario highly unlikely.

3. The Samsung legal deparment instructed the author and the CS to lie unmoved by the fact that it would undercut the company sales.

4. The CS is just one dumb chick and as such she is clueless - one of the favorite terms used around here as a putdown. Judging from the way she spoke she one very well informed but I could be wrong.

5. She told the truth about plasmas and I am telling the truth about the conversation.

Next time I call Samsung I will try to record the conversation and produce a sworn transcript.




LOL.
That was one of the most feeble attempts I have ever seen to convice people that todays top-of-the-line plasmas are prone to burn-in.

The fact of the matter is that they are not unless you abuse them horribly. And in that case what do you expect??

You said above that Since the samsung puts the warning and does not cover Burn-in on thier warranty it proves burn-in is still a problem.
The Burn-in Disclaimer IS given for Samsung LCD televisions ALSO!!
So I guess that means that LCD's are also Prone to burn-in since Samsung doesn't cover it under warranty and warns about it huh????
Here you go:
http://www.samsung.com/my/support/repairpolicy/servicePolicyWarrantyMain.do

http://hdguru.com/?p=151

Also, Dell tells customers that Burn-in is not covered under thier LCD warranty:

http://support.dell.com/support/topics/global.aspx/support/dsn/en/document?

Hmmmmmm. Does this mean burn-in is a problem with LCD???? According to you I guess so.

Chadmak09, I read your post several times just be sure I didn't miss anything and I noticed that you didn't say which of the five possibilities I listed for your convenience would apply.

Also, how did you get an impression that I was trying to convince anybody about anything? Like a good reporter, I quoted a Samsung employee. So, I guess when she said: No, it will be permanent. she lied. I wonder why she would do it. Did you notice that sentence that has "three hours" in it? No LCD ever got a permanent image after three hours. According to Samsung, their plasmas can.

My post #22 includes an excerpt from a Samsung owner's manual. The quoted paragraphs warn about the possibility of a permanent damage - burn-in - that may result from improper use as defined in the manual. This is clearly at odds with the opinions held by an overwhelming majority here.

Prompted by my curiousity why would Samsung deliberately undermine their sales by being so negative about the things they make I called them today at 800-SUMSUNG. This is how it went:

Me: I just read that today plasma sets are safe from burn-in. Your manual says they are not. What gives?

CS: They are better than they used to be but you can still cause a permanent damage if, for example, you get a phone call, stop the movie and leave it there stopped for three hours.

Me: You mean I will have a case of a temporary IR?

CS: No, it will be permanent.

Me: What about LCDs?

CS: Theoretically, LCDs can be damaged too but it takes a lot more to do it.

Now, at this point you, the reader, can assume one of these possibilities:

1. I am a liar and no such conversation ever took place. The problem for me would be that I cited an unimpeachable source that anyone can get in touch with and prove me to be a lowly liar.

2. The CS and the person who wrote the manual lied. Personally, I consider this scenario highly unlikely.

3. The Samsung legal deparment instructed the author and the CS to lie unmoved by the fact that it would undercut the company sales.

4. The CS is just one dumb chick and as such she is clueless - one of the favorite terms used around here as a putdown. Judging from the way she spoke she one very well informed but I could be wrong.

5. She told the truth about plasmas and I am telling the truth about the conversation.

Next time I call Samsung I will try to record the conversation and produce a sworn transcript.

This conversation means what exactly?
Can a plasma get burn-in? yes
Can a LCD get burn-in? yes
Are some panels more resistant than others? YES
Will a plasma get burn-in after three hours of still screen? maybe, maybe not...what was her evidence? How informed of a c.s.r. is she? I've owned samsung and have had to call in before and I would guess she was not the most educated on the display. Doesn't mean she wasn't being honest.

I can tell you from experience that I've had a HUD from a video game on for up to 6 hours on my 1150and barely had IR, which was gone after about 5 minutes of full screen t.v.

Same here.

Very early in my plasma ownership I stupidly fell asleep overnight while watching SIN CITY. I actually did this more than once. Each time I awoke to find the extremely high contrast Menu onscreen after a period of at least 5-6 hours each time. I have ZERO burn-in from these hapless episodes (and others to be sure) and have told this story on myself many times both to reassure anxious owners and to refute this constant burn-in babble from the likes of posters like ramazur.

Seriously folks, go to the listing of this guy's other posts and just read the first lines. Tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about his approach to this forum (and other things). I'll leave it at that as the last thread he was involved with got locked (although I confess it may have been my response to his last post on it which forced Mark's hand :o) Sorry.

...How informed of a c.s.r. is she? I've owned samsung and have had to call in before and I would guess she was not the most educated on the display.

At least the mystery of why Samsung's position on this subject is different from the AVS subscribers' has been solved:

4. The CSR is just one dumb chick and as such she is clueless.

I just knew it that there will be a simple explanation. What a relief.

You're right, stupid us for thinking a hourly worker making next to nothing, like almost all customer support people for almost all goods and services, woulddn't be an expert on their plasma.
LOL.

Keep digging :)

You're right, stupid us for thinking a hourly worker making next to nothing, like almost all customer support people for almost all goods and services, woulddn't be an expert on their plasma.
LOL.

Keep digging :)

What you and others are dancing around is this: she may be low paid, uneducated, uncaring, but what she is saying are negative things - like burn-in - about the products her employer makes. If her comments were not true and got to the attention of the Samsung management she would be reassigned or terminated the same day. Or are you claiming that the Samsung management is also underpaid and poorly informed?

So I am still waiting for an explantion why she is allowed to continue to say bad things about Samsung products. A hint: because what she says is true and approved.

You're right, stupid us for thinking a hourly worker making next to nothing, like almost all customer support people for almost all goods and services, woulddn't be an expert on their plasma.
LOL.

Keep digging :)

I followed your advice, called LG and asked the same question: can your 50PG20, for example, suffer from a permanent burn-in? Yes. How could it happen? If you let a DVD player time out for 4 or 5 hours the damage will be permanent.

For your convenience, the phone number is 1-800-243-0000. Would you want me to call Pioneer?

From the excitement of turning into an investigative reporter, I almost forgot to mention this: "It would take a lot longer to do it to our LCDs" said the LG CSR.

PLLLLLLEEEAAAASSEEE

I was in the Acura dealer the other day inquiring about an MDX. We were talking about the older model, which the experiences salesman claimed was not built on the Odyssey platform. I know he was wrong, as I bought one of the first MDX models in Maryland. This is a guy selling 6 products and has been at the dealer since 2000.

Under your scenario, ramazur, what he says is "true and approved". But I assure you it is not.

Do you have any experience in research or statistics? Please understand your research model and methods are flawed, and thus your conclusion is flawed.

ramazur, have you ever heard the term "CYA"? Because that's clearly what Samsung et al are doing with the burn-in language in their manuals and on tech support lines. Plasma and LCD manuals as has been pointed out.

There's dozens/hundreds of threads with plasma owners talking about playing games, watching ESPN, watching letterbox movies, and watching pillar boxed shows who don't even get IR, not to mention permenant burn-in. What's more likely, that Samsung et al are simply doing CYA, or that we're all lying?

jeff

ramazur, have you ever heard the term "CYA"? Because that's clearly what Samsung et al are doing with the burn-in language in their manuals and on tech support lines. Plasma and LCD manuals as has been pointed out.

There's dozens/hundreds of threads with plasma owners talking about playing games, watching ESPN, watching letterbox movies, and watching pillar boxed shows who don't even get IR, not to mention permenant burn-in. What's more likely, that Samsung et al are simply doing CYA, or that we're all lying?

jeff

So finally we know the truth - it is my choice 3:

3. The Samsung legal deparment instructed the author and the CSRs to lie, unmoved by the fact that it would undercut the company sales.

Except for one mystery: why would plasma manufacturers lie about what absolutely, positively CANNOT happen? In fact, if and when they decide to depart from the truth, it is to gain a competitive advantage. Examples: Panasonic's RPTV lamps, Sony's infamous "green blob", etc. Why didn't Panasonic simply state that the lamp life is 100 hours or less to CYA? Why didn't Sony warn that the picture may turn green or any other color at any time after purchase? Both companies lost class action suits and paid dearly for not employing that great legal advice you call CYA. Why don't you write to them and suggest that they attach a CYA disclaimer to anything that can go wrong with their products.

ramazur,

This is a funny little game your are playing. In not too many words, here is why I think Plasma manufacturers put warnings in their literature:

- Because 99% of consumers mistake IR for Burn-In.
- Because 99.999% of consumers don't understand or even know what IR is (including many very smart people on this forum)
- They realize there is no point in trying to educate the consumer as mass confusion would result.

Faced with the slight possibility of mass consumer revolt and return of sets they think it is appropriate to warn people not to leave static images on the screen.

Good way to put it xrox, it's a funny little game being played.

I don't know why the Samsung CSR told you that permanent burn-in would occur after watching one letterboxed movie. I can tell you that it's a fact that it doesn't happen. How do I know? I just watched The Last Crusade last night, and the letterbox bars didn't even IR for a second when the full screen menu came back up. I have a Panasonic but I doubt Samsungs are of such lower quality that the result would be dramatically different. I do not know why you are hitching your entire argument on the words of a CSR in opposition to the real life experience of the owners of these sets.

So, rather than jump to one of your pre-determined choices, what's going on here? Obviously burn-in is possible, it's inherent to some degree to the technology. From what I gather it was something of an issue with the early sets. I, and many other people, use plasma sets just the way a normal person would use a TV - watching shows, movies, and playing games and not worrying about it, all to absolutely zero ill effect. So burn-in falls into the "possible but extremely unlikely" category. And manufacturers of all kinds have exclusions for things like that in their warranties. That's why they're called limited warranties.

jeff

ramazur,

This is a funny little game your are playing. In not too many words, here is why I think Plasma manufacturers put warnings in their literature:

- Because 99% of consumers mistake IR for Burn-In.
- Because 99.999% of consumers don't understand or even know what IR is (including many very smart people on this forum)
- They realize there is no point in trying to educate the consumer as mass confusion would result.

Faced with the slight possibility of mass consumer revolt and return of sets they think it is appropriate to warn people not to leave static images on the screen.

I am surprised that you find it hard to see the difference between IR and burn-in or what IR is. These concepts are really simple to grasp.

The funny little games continue. Where did he say he didn't know the difference between IR and burn in? He pointed out that a lot of people don't. The sheer number of threads on this site talking about it is proof of that.

You've got quite the habit of putting words in other people's mouths.

jeff

Just thought I would chime in here. Hate not to get into another thread that has degraded into a PDP vs LCD.

For all of the plasma people out there, ramazur is correct, burn in does still exist.

Has it occurred to you guys that the phosphors that Panny uses may not be the exact ones that Samsung or LG uses? Each company probably has a formulation for phosphors that is considered Top Secret.

As such each type of phosphor can have a different sensitivity to burn in and aging. As I understand these things, it has been said by a couple of people who I will say are more on the side of plasma, that Samsung Plasmas are more prone to burn in than other brands. So what Samsung says in it's manuals would be reasonable.

Yes LCD's do have a form of retention, but it is more based on the architecture of the TFT. Poor design of the TFT panel can lead to capacitive charges building up and causing image issues. Very different from PDP burn in, but no less a pain. You can avoid this in a LCD by staying with a good brand name. While Dell seems like a good brand name for computers, they really don't build TV's, they buy them cheap and slap the name Dell on the front.

Faced with the slight possibility of mass consumer revolt and return of sets they think it is appropriate to warn people not to leave static images on the screen.
That is not to stave off a "consumer revolt", the warnings are there purley as a CYA that is standard for all bussinesses. ID all of the potential problems you may get sued for and include disclaimers in the fine print. By the way that this is worded, I would say that it has happened to them before.

I am surprised that you find it hard to see the difference between IR and burn-in or what IR is. These concepts are really simple to grasp.Nice try :) Couldn’t think of a better comeback? I’m pretty sure you fall in the 99.999% population.

As I understand these things, it has been said by a couple of people who I will say are more on the side of plasma, that Samsung Plasmas are more prone to burn in than other brands. So what Samsung says in it's manuals would be reasonable.Perfect example of my second point.

That is not to stave off a "consumer revolt", the warnings are there purley as a CYA that is standard for all bussinesses. ID all of the potential problems you may get sued for and include disclaimers in the fine print. By the way that this is worded, I would say that it has happened to them before.Let me put it this way : Plasma manufacturers don’t want consumers to return perfectly good sets that the consumer claims suffers from burn-in when in fact it is IR. And since it is next to impossible to educate people on the difference between IR and burn-in (thanks to pre-conceived notions and the fact they look nearly identical) the next best course of action is to just try and get the consumer to prevent ANY type of retained images with a standard warning about static images.

BTW everyone, I’m basing all on this on a several technical papers by……….. SAMSUNG :)

ramazur is asserting that permanent burn in is inevitable if you watch letterbox or pillarboxed shows on a plasma, and cites the warranty exclusion and a conversation with a CSR rep as proof.

Consider some facts:
Samsung's website excludes "image sticking" from plasma TV warranty coverage. The same page excludes "any damages by image retention/burn in" from LCD flat panel TV coverage.

Panasonic's plasma TV owner's manuals state the following in the warranty section:
"...nor does it cover markings or retained images on the picture tube resulting from viewing fixed images (including, among other things, letterbox pictures on standard 4:3 screen TV’s, or non-expanded standard 4:3 pictures on wide screen TV’s, or onscreen data in a stationary and fixed location)."
Their LCD owner's manual says this:
"...nor does it cover markings or retained images on the LCD panel resulting from viewing fixed images (including, among other things, letterbox pictures on standard 4:3 screen TV’s, or nonexpanded standard 4:3 pictures on wide screen TV’s, or onscreen data in a stationary and fixed location)."

I don't know anything about the difference in the phosphors used by Samsung and Panasonic. I also don't really know anything about the mechanism for LCD burn in. But here is proof that Panasonic and Samsung essentially use the same language to exclude such damages from warranty coverage for both types of sets. So let's please put to rest the argument that it's excluded by the warranty so that mean's it's a big/inevitable/etc problem for plasma.

As for the customer service rep, I think we've all had enough absurd discussions with them in various industries to know that often times they're ill-informed/poorly trained/not too bright/etc. So again, let's put to rest any arguments that take a CSR statements as gospel.

TNG's last point is right on the mark.

jeff

I haven't seen any documentation but it seems the new LG PG60 and PG70 series plasmas will have burn-in covered in the standard two year warranty.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13621750&postcount=1

What happened to the OP, and the thread topic, or is this now a complete hijacking of this thread.

OP; I feel for you, I too am in the same boat. I like both Plasma and LCDs.

Actually the good thing for you is that you have a limited budget, therefore more limited in the choices that are out there. :D

So for under $2000 and over 50", I have seen

Plasma
Pioneer 5080, but it is only 720p, but still a great picture.
Pannys I think you can find some 700 series TVs at that price point.

LCD
I really like the Toshiba VF540, but that is probably a little bit above $2000. Maybe the Toshiba 530, but I haven't looked at it too closely because I have been entrenched in the 540 and 550 Toshiba threads. From posts so far (anything can change), the 540 and 550 have eliminated motion blur and other LCD issues.
Yes the Samsung 550 is a great LCD, and might be in the budget range, I just can't get a reflective screen, or if I was then I might as well get a Plasma.
As far as Sharp and Sony, when people talk about the issues of LCD, I have heard that these two seem to be the best quality, but always seems they are the ones that have those issues the most, the banding, smearing, Three ball effect, etc.

My opinions, are that the top of the line Plasmas do have the best picture, so if you want that and reflection/brightness isn't an issue for you choose plasma.

If you can't handle reflections, go LCD.

Personally, I think that I will be getting the Toshiba 540 52" LCD.

Only after I bring home and test the Pioneer 5010fd plasma, and see if the reflection will bother me.

Remember any posts by anyone is just their opinions. Well except for mine which are always 100% factual ;)

bytor99999

I have the Toshiba 42RV530u and have had it for almost two months. I went LCD because I prefer the brighter picture an lcd generally offers and have seen plasma's with phosphorus lag problems when playing games (I know that it doesn't happen with everyone's plasma). I was in the same boat as you were trying to decide, but I am happy with my choice, good luck with yours.

The funny little games continue. Where did he say he didn't know the difference between IR and burn in? He pointed out that a lot of people don't. The sheer number of threads on this site talking about it is proof of that.

You've got quite the habit of putting words in other people's mouths.

jeff

With due apologies to the OP for dragging this subject out, exchanging opinions with some of the participants here is more fun than I deserve. Of course, I put words words in his mouth as a tongue-in cheek objection to his statement about these uneducated masses that he, of course, is not part of. This technique of claiming inferiority on the part of THEM could be called "them dumb me smart" method of elevating yourself. Just read his claims and you will see my point that I was not the first to "put words" into someone's mouth:

- Because 99% of consumers mistake IR for Burn-In.
- Because 99.999% of consumers don't understand or even know what IR is (including many very smart people on this forum)
- They realize there is no point in trying to educate the consumer as mass confusion would result.

To make such statements, he would have to interview at least 100,000 people as 99.999% means effectively that 1 in 100,000 is well informed and the rest of them are not. He also made a claim on behalf of TV manufacturers in his third assertion. What is the basis for this claim?

Now look at your own post. Quote: He pointed out that a lot of people don't. That is attributing to somebody lack of knowledge without even knowing him or her. This is not a nice thing to do. At least my remark was meant to be a joke which Xrox, to his credit, quickly and properly decoded.

With due apologies to the OP for dragging this subject out, exchanging opinions with some of the participants here is more fun than I deserve. Of course, I put words words in his mouth as a tongue-in cheek objection to his statement about these uneducated masses that he, of course, is not part of. This technique of claiming inferiority on the part of THEM could be called "them dumb me smart" method of elevating yourself. Just read his claims and you will see my point that I was not the first to "put words" into someone's mouth:

- Because 99% of consumers mistake IR for Burn-In.
- Because 99.999% of consumers don't understand or even know what IR is (including many very smart people on this forum)
- They realize there is no point in trying to educate the consumer as mass confusion would result.

To make such statements, he would have to interview at least 100,000 people as 99.999% means effectively that 1 in 100,000 is well informed and the rest of them are not. He also made a claim on behalf of TV manufacturers in his third assertion. What is the basis for this claim?

Now look at your own post. Quote: He pointed out that a lot of people don't. That is attributing to somebody lack of knowledge without even knowing him or her. This is not a nice thing to do. At least my remark was meant to be a joke which Xrox, to his credit, quickly and properly decoded.LOL, you must be a reporter because you love to pick and choose right out of context in order to support your little game. You left out the part where I said "this is what I think". As for me being smarter than everyone? Don't recall saying that either? And the reason "I think" the majority of people don't understand IR is not because I'm smart but because I have read scientific papers by SAMSUNG, LG, and Pioneer that state why IR and Burn-In occur. I've even posted the info many times here. Yet people that are clearly smarter than I are still stuck on the phosphor as the source.

Anyway, your little posting games need to stop IMO. Nice trying to apologize to the OP? How about to everyone else :)

Cheers

I am in dire need of help because I cannot decide on a television. I'm a college student, been saving for 7 months now and saved right at $2000 for a television purchase.

Fenix, back to you. If you already bought a set, congratulations and good luck with your purchase.

If not, consider this: According to Samsung, LG and Pioneer, a permanent image retention can happen if a stationary image is stopped for 4 to 8 hours. The image must contain bright and dark areas to be capable of causing the damage. This can happen the first day you own the set.

The three copmanies gave me nearly identical answers with the word permanent included. When challenged, all three CSRs assured me that they meant permanent, not temporary.
If you have any doubt about what I just wrote, you can easily verify it by calling the three companies I mentioned.

We can debate the reasons why the plasma manufacturers say these kinds of things until hell freezes. As they say at Fox News: We report, you decide.

FenixTx972,

I am sooooo staying away from the LCD vs. Plasma debate, but thought I'd offer a few thoughts.

(1) If you are going to be doing lots of video from your computer (i.e. if it is going to be your main video source) make sure that whatever panel you pick up that it will do 1x1 pixel mapping using whatever connection you plan to use. I have a Pioneer PDP5070 (720p) plasma that I love but I can't get the resolution right over HDMI so I have to use a VGA cable. The picture doesn't look bad but I sure wish it would be 1x1.

(2) If you are looking at plasma (which may or may not be better or worse then LCD) you might even consider looking at the Panasonic professional plasma monitors. They typically don't come with tuners but you can typically pick up add-in cards that will allow you to have a tuner. Just did some quick looking and you can get a 50" pro plasma for about $1300.00 (720p) or $2250 (1080p) and if memory serves me right, the add in modules run right around $150-175.00. And it looks like the new version (I was shopping years ago) comes with a slot filled with 2 HDMI inputs -- and the old version actually did 1x1 pixel mapping over HDMI. So don't rule that out!! (( Note: I love my TV but I wish I had gone this route ))

(3) I have been shopping for speakers and one of the big things everyone says is go "audition" the speakers. Make sure to go LOOK at the TVs that you want to see if you like them. Obviously they are going to look horrible in the local B&M but you can at least see them looking horrible!

Best of luck!

Brian

Fenix, back to you. If you already bought a set, congratulations and good luck with your purchase.

If not, consider this: According to Samsung, LG and Pioneer, a permanent image retention can happen if a stationary image is stopped for 4 to 8 hours. The image must contain bright and dark areas to be capable of causing the damage. This can happen the first day you own the set.

The three copmanies gave me nearly identical answers with the word permanent included. When challenged, all three CSRs assured me that they meant permanent, not temporary.
If you have any doubt about what I just wrote, you can easily verify it by calling the three companies I mentioned.

We can debate the reasons why the plasma manufacturers say these kinds of things until hell freezes. As they say at Fox News: We report, you decide.

You are still not getting it, what everyone is saying. You are taking the reps literally. Manufacturers always cover their arses well above the full truth.

I personally respect and trust the smart posters here than the manufacturer reps that answer phones.

Please move on to the next Plasma vs LCD thread and leave this one to the OP.

Thanks

bytor99999

You are still not getting it, what everyone is saying. You are taking the reps literally. Manufacturers always cover their arses well above the full truth.

I personally respect and trust the smart posters here than the manufacturer reps that answer phones.

Please move on to the next Plasma vs LCD thread and leave this one to the OP.

Thanks

bytor99999

I came here to advise the OP. That I did to the best of my ability. Where in my last post did you find my endorsement of what the CSRs said? I only objectively reported what they said. I couldn't have been more clear on this point. It is up to the OP to take it or leave. Or go with the rest of you.

If you read ramazur's direct quote from the Samsung book you do realize that burn in is still a potential problem.

If you have a 360, it is capable of 1080 and 720, right? What I have not heard here from any of the FANBOYS on either side is this, are the games that you play displayed in HD or SD? Do they all have sidebars, or are they full screen displays?

If most of the games you do are a "full screen" display go for the plasma, if most of the games are SD or not using the full screen, then go for the LCD. There is no right choice that can be defined by the fanboy arguments above, just what is correct for you.

What you will find is that plasma will give you better dark detail. This is usefull in allot of RPG games where you can get shot by something in the dark (Halo1/2/3, Gears of War, etc...). It can be difficult on a LCD to see the detail in a dark scene and see where the bad aliens are hiding.

What you find on a LCD is better and brighter colors from brightly lit scenes. Detail on brigtly lit scenes is better on a LCD. Good for sports games, racing etc...

I can attest to the bolded section, when I was playing Halo 3 on Last Resort(Zanzibar), I couldn't see anyone hiding in the dark section where the sniper rifle is. In fact, it wasn't until I turned up the brightness that I could even see the details in the dark section (wall, cracks, etc).

The good news is that Halo 3 has a screen selection where you can choose brightness settings, I chose the highest and can now see everything. The bad news is when I turn up the brightness manually via my Samsung TV menu as opposed to the in-game menu, the surroundings are too bright even though the dark parts look fine.

For example, when zooming in with the Sniper rifle, everything looks too bright using the TV settings, but using only the in-game brightness settings, the zooming is perfect and it's not overly bright in any settings. In fact the brightness is great all around.

My real concern is with other 360 games, I only have Halo 3 thus far (sad I know:rolleyes:), but will be getting Ninja Gaiden 2. My primary concern WAS lag, now that this TV performs with no lag whatsoever, I was happy.

That was until I read your post about the darks being better on plasma TV's, and then I recalled it being difficult to see the bad guys in the dark section of the aforementioned level.

Will this be a problem on all games, like NG2 where there is going to be dark levels? I'm sure it will.

Halo 3 had an in-game brightness setting, but NG2 and most other 360 games probably won't, does that mean I need to turn up the brightness on my TV, which will allow me to see the dark areas better, but then "washing-out" the bright areas by making them too bright and an overall unpleasant gaming experience? I'm not sure.

For the record, I have the Sammy 37LNA450 LCD tv, bought it last Friday (May 16th) so I still have a few weeks to return it in case I want to go plasma.

However, I can only go as big as 37 inches and most plasma's start at the 40 inch size, so I went LCD. I know that Panasonic now has some 37 inch plasmas up for sale, they are the professional versions, here's links to the ones I could find.

http://www.panasonic.com/business/plasma/plasmas.asp?cm_mmc=Phelps-_-PPDC-Proplasma-_-Google-_-TH37PH10UK

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=176432&catGroupId=14624&surfModel=TH-37PH10UK&displayTab=F

http://www.thehighdefinitionstore.com/tvs/panasonic-th-37ph9uk-287.html

You can see the native resolution on those Panny's is 1024 X 720, as opposed to my Sammy which is 1366 x 768, I know 768 is supposedly "true HD" whereas the 720 is not, but is it really that much of a difference?

Finally, I paid $830 for my Sammy, got a killer deal at Best Buy, they price-matched an online website (which I thought they would never do), although it was an authorized Samsung internet dealer, that's why they did it. And we bought 2 tv's from them, a 46 incher for the folks, and a 37 incher for myself, so that also played a factor IIRC.

The Panny's I listed are all about $1300, so is $500 more worth the brightness/better black feature? Not sure, but Buy.com has the same Panny for $890.

http://www.buy.com/prod/panasonic-professional-th37ph10uk-37-plasma-display-37-16-9-1024-x-720/q/loc/111/204793761.html

I've heard nothing but terrible things about Buy.com however, so I'm very wary of buying from them.

Apologies for my painfully long post, just seeking some help.

Is it worth returning my 37 inch Sammy LCD for a 37 inch Panny plasma for the better black feature of being able to see the details in dark areas, or is it just more rational to turn up the brightness accordingly?

I'll start another thread if necessary and apologize if this post is misplaced, I'm like the OP, my head's spinning...:confused:

Bottomline is you should not worry about burn-in on newer top-of-the-line plasmas and Pllasma is definitly the way to go unless you are needing a screen less than 40 inches in size.
Heres a funny little cartoon showing some of the LCD vs plasma pro's and cons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPeb_CwJ9PM&feature=related

I came here to advise the OP. That I did to the best of my ability. Where in my last post did you find my endorsement of what the CSRs said? I only objectively reported what they said. I couldn't have been more clear on this point. It is up to the OP to take it or leave. Or go with the rest of you.

How about in every post you made to this thread.It is easy to tell from your posts where you biases lie, anytime you have bias, you have no objectivity.

bytor99999

...anytime you have bias, you have no objectivity.

bytor99999

That would be news to every reporter, judge, and juror. Here is a shocker for you, bytor: Every human being has a bias. The three categories I mentioned, including the Supreme Court, can function properly because they can be objective and, while on the job, set their personal preferences aside. Is it your own experience that made you conclude that being biased and telling truth are mutually exclusive?

That would be news to every reporter, judge, and juror. Here is a shocker for you, bytor: Every human being has a bias. The three categories I mentioned, including the Supreme Court, can function properly because they can be objective and, while on the job, set their personal preferences aside. Is it your own experience that made you conclude that being biased and telling truth are mutually exclusive?

Wow, you do put words in people's mouths. Nice.

I think I am done wasting my time.

bytor99999

What you and others are dancing around is this: she may be low paid, uneducated, uncaring, but what she is saying are negative things - like burn-in - about the products her employer makes. If her comments were not true and got to the attention of the Samsung management she would be reassigned or terminated the same day. Or are you claiming that the Samsung management is also underpaid and poorly informed?

So I am still waiting for an explantion why she is allowed to continue to say bad things about Samsung products. A hint: because what she says is true and approved.


Really? You really think this or are you just trolling?
How about it's called covering their butts. Insurance, incase of.
Never said it was impossible just you have to try to do it.

Also, are you not the same guy who bashes plasmas in the LCD forums? LOL.

Bottomline is you should not worry about burn-in on newer top-of-the-line plasmas and Pllasma is definitly the way to go unless you are needing a screen less than 40 inches in size.


why would you make a blanket statement like that? lighting issues would sway the smart decision to go lcd
pc use does as well
personal preference for brighter and sharper images is also a factor

personally i think lcd black looks more realistic than plasma

and if the burn in issue is really irrelevant why don't stores or manufacturers guarantee the panels against burn in? because if you're "not careful" you can still burn in your plasma

and if the burn in issue is really irrelevant why don't stores or manufacturers guarantee the panels against burn in? because if you're "not careful" you can still burn in your plasma

According to the linked post, the LG two-year warranty for the new pg60 series covers burn-in.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13621750&postcount=1

why would you make a blanket statement like that? lighting issues would sway the smart decision to go lcd
pc use does as well
personal preference for brighter and sharper images is also a factor

personally i think lcd black looks more realistic than plasma

and if the burn in issue is really irrelevant why don't stores or manufacturers guarantee the panels against burn in? because if you're "not careful" you can still burn in your plasma

I have a sliding glass door 4 feet from my plasma and leave the blinds open all the time. and I have barley any reflection issues.
In fact, I had a much worse issue with reflections on my Samsung 71f LCD than I ever did with my Pioneer 5080 plasma.

And if burn-in not being guaranteed by the manufacturer is reason for worry about burn-in, the I guess we should start worrying about LCD burn-in. becasue it is possible to burn-in an LCD and it is not covered under most manufacturers warrantys.

And if you think LCD blacks look more realistic than plasma then all I can say is maybe its time for an eye exam. Becasue most everyone else sees differently.
Plasmas are much more realistic becasue they don't rely on a backlight for illumination and don't need so many enhansers like LCD does. Those enhansers cause the images to look artificial and over brightened and cause lots of artifacts.

wouldn't we all? :L)

...and if the burn in issue is really irrelevant why don't stores or manufacturers guarantee the panels against burn in? because if you're "not careful" you can still burn in your plasma

Good point. The next post provides a link to an AVS post where someone claims that a 2-year LG warranty covers burn-in. Let's assume that this is true for a moment: the difference between a guarantee and a warranty is that the guarantor claims that something will not happen, whereas the warrantor says that if it happens it will be repaired at the warrantor's expense.

A sidebar: In my opinion, other than the risk of PIR (that would be short for permanent image retention) that LG claims exists, their latest plasmas look really good and are the best bang for the buck if one is looking for a 50 incher, plasma or LCD.

Back to burn-in. In my never ending pursuit of the truth, I called Sony today and asked the person who answered why there are no disclaimers or warnings in their manual for the XBR4 LCD TV regarding burn-in or, for that matter, even a mention of any kind of image retention, temporary or permanent.

For those who are curious or distrusting, on page 7 of said manual you will find a group of nine items with little squares as bullet points under the title "LCD SCREEN". (Of the nine, four are what to avoid and five are disclaimers). This told me that Sony is familiar with that great legal concept we call CYA. Guess what: Unlike comparable LCD manuals published by Samsung, not a a single word about image retention or burn-in. I do admit that this discovery made my heart beat faster: these damn lawyers forgot to protect Sony's rear end. How awful! I was on the phone in less than a minute.

Well, as it turns out, they didn't forget. The simple answer from level 2 was: our LCDs do not burn-in so there was no point to include this subject in our manual. Wow!

Now, what about Samsung? They do include identical warnings in their LCD and plasma manuals, don't they? Yes, they do. The funny thing with Sony and Samsung is that their panels are made by one and the same plant they allegedly co-own: Samsung has 53 percent share and Sony the rest. So why would Sony panels be better - burn-in-wise - than Samsung's?

At this point I am going to go out on a limb and claim that they are equally good in this regard. So what about that Samsung's warning? That is a very good question that I resolved to investigate next week. My best guess for now is that they properly included the burn-in warning in their plasma manuals and let it slide into LCD text for reasons that have nothing to do the underlying physics.

When they open for business this Tuesday, I will try to reach Samsung's inner sanctum where mere mortals usually don't go and tell them what a dumb idea it is to scare potential customers away with a baseless warning that their competitor, Sony, decided not to include in their publications. I hope this will catch their corporate attention really good.

Wouldn't it be cool if my proactive step resulted in helping Samsung to grow even bigger?

Wow guys, this thing erupted. Some stressors of life being handled, I'm back. Now, I'd like to start off by saying thanks for everyone and all their help. I honestly don't know what I would do without you all.

Ramazur - have you personally experienced burn in, or know someone who did? however, you are right. if all plasma tvs were as proactive as Samsung with burn in, I'm afraid the battle of lcd v plasma would be over, imo.

Chadmak - that cartoon is funny but lets be honest, a little biased :D. I thank you for all your help though.

Staysoffline - my problem here is it's nearly $2300 for a 1080p plus the cost of tuners and etc. it's a good thought, and i had never thought about it but will look into it.

Bytor - I think I'm with you. Everyone i've talked too who actually has history with plasma says burn in is not a problem.

EAGLES - been in this thread since day 1, thank you for putting to rest what some people are leading off as facts. I'd give you a highfive if i could.

buckeye - i had no idea they were covering burn in under warranty, maybe i'll go sammy (:eek:)now since that burn in and IR is my biggest and only conern about plasma

I think it's too the point, where they both have pros and cons, and it boils down to price.

glare isn't a problem, weight or power usage isn't a problem

boils down to motion blur of lcd vs burn in and ir of plasma

If everyone says Burn in is a thing of the past, i can't help be believe them.

The Plasma Crew of this thread would like to know i tried to get the Panasonic z80u today from best buy, but wouldn't negotiate on price. :p

I have a sliding glass door 4 feet from my plasma and leave the blinds open all the time. and I have barley any reflection issues.
In fact, I had a much worse issue with reflections on my Samsung 71f LCD than I ever did with my Pioneer 5080 plasma.

4 feet to the side? facing? big difference!

reflections? lots i'm sure
unless you're watching in the dark

i've had 2 plasmas, i know

samsung 71 glass is extremely reflective but the brightness of that set combats the reflections pretty well

i wish the pioneer did as good a job, i would consider it if that was the case


And if burn-in not being guaranteed by the manufacturer is reason for worry about burn-in, the I guess we should start worrying about LCD burn-in. becasue it is possible to burn-in an LCD and it is not covered under most manufacturers warrantys.


sure it's possible, you may be able to find a work computer left on for years that exhibit this?

normal usage without regard for static images + pc usage etc etc lcd's won't have any issues, no retention, no need for "washing" the screen with screensavers or need to wait till ir is "cleaned" by other material

lcd's don't have to warranty against burn in because it is a non issue, never has been, unlike plasma's history of burn in



And if you think LCD blacks look more realistic than plasma then all I can say is maybe its time for an eye exam. Becasue most everyone else sees differently.
Plasmas are much more realistic becasue they don't rely on a backlight for illumination and don't need so many enhansers like LCD does. Those enhansers cause the images to look artificial and over brightened and cause lots of artifacts.

i suggest you study the images you see on your sets more closely and maybe you'll see what i mean

"better blacks" does not mean more realistic pictures/images

it just means better blacks

i could hold up a magazine with a photo of a model next to the actual live model and the printed page will have "better blacks" than the real life person next to it, especially with different lighting conditions

you see what i'm getting at?

why would you make a blanket statement like that? lighting issues would sway the smart decision to go lcd
pc use does as well
personal preference for brighter and sharper images is also a factor

personally i think lcd black looks more realistic than plasma

and if the burn in issue is really irrelevant why don't stores or manufacturers guarantee the panels against burn in? because if you're "not careful" you can still burn in your plasma

Does your LCD have a matte screen? If not your ambient light advantage isn't much at all.
You have to 'try'.

I followed your advice, called LG and asked the same question: can your 50PG20, for example, suffer from a permanent burn-in? Yes. How could it happen? If you let a DVD player time out for 4 or 5 hours the damage will be permanent.

For your convenience, the phone number is 1-800-243-0000. Would you want me to call Pioneer?

From the excitement of turning into an investigative reporter, I almost forgot to mention this: "It would take a lot longer to do it to our LCDs" said the LG CSR.

Would you like to come see a plasma in person? Then you might know something about what you are talking about. Or dod you just take any customer service person's reccomendations for all goods and services you pay for?
I can play a video game with a constant HUD for 6 hours plus on my Pioneer and there is NO burn-in and the tiny bit of IR is gone within 10 minutes of full screen viewing.


Chad and xrox...he makes it his hobby to bash plasmas. Check out some of his posts in the 'LCD' forum bashing plasmas....and with false statements most of the time.
Don't waste your time or energy.

Chad and xrox...he makes it his hobby to bash plasmas. Check out some of his posts in the 'LCD' forum bashing plasmas....and with false statements most of the time.

Thanks for crediting me with being right some of the time. I really needed a pat on the back.

From Wikipedia: Bashing is a harsh, gratuitous, predjudicial attack on a person, group or subject. Now, this made me sad that somebody would accuse me of such behaviour. But then I realized that I was in good company of the likes of Samsung, LG and Pioneer who made some really disparaging remarks about plasmas. Like that if you are not careful and let it sit for six ours the damage may be permanent. Talk about bashing! Somebody should sue them for defamation!

It seems Wikipedia should update the definition of bashing to include: Criticizing what I like.

I wont play your game, sorry.

If you're a gamer, LCD is a gimme. it look almost 3D. Sony Bravia, or higher end Samsung's 550, 650, 750. Plasma is better. If movies and sports were your thing, I'd say plasma. But if more than 50% of your time is Playstation/Xbox/Wii, go LCD, you won't be disappointed. Also, if you do go with plasma, burn-in is not much of an issue anymore, there's screen-shift technology, and screen savers, if there is an after-image from heavy game play, it should go away after a few minutes when the image changes.The latest generation LCD's look more like plasma's than ever before though.

Chad and xrox...he makes it his hobby to bash plasmas. Check out some of his posts in the 'LCD' forum bashing plasmas....and with false statements most of the time.
Don't waste your time or energy.Actually, discussing why manufacturers warn consumers like they do even though they have data which conflicts with these warnings is a good discussion. As far as ramazr goes, he's harmless :). I quite enjoy how all his posts state some sort of "surprise" about CSR claims when they essentially back his agenda to begin with (LOL). That reaks of fabrication and I highly doubt he's actually called anyone.

So lets list some observations:

1 - Manufacturers warn about burn-in in the manual
2 - CSR states burn in can happen in as little as 4 hours (assuming ramazr isn't lying)
3 - Manufacturers themselves have data that shows phoshpor burn-in is highly unlikely unless prolonged additive abuse occurs
4 - Manufacturers themselves have data that shows that Image retention (transient or long lasting) is not caused by phosphor aging
5 - From experience, many forum members can say that permanent burn-in will not occur in 4 hours or even much longer.

Why the conflicting information? Any thoughts ramazr?

If you're a gamer, LCD is a gimme. it look almost 3D. Sony Bravia, or higher end Samsung's 550, 650, 750. Plasma is better. If movies and sports were your thing, I'd say plasma. But if more than 50% of your time is Playstation/Xbox/Wii, go LCD, you won't be disappointed. Also, if you do go with plasma, burn-in is not much of an issue anymore, there's screen-shift technology, and screen savers, if there is an after-image from heavy game play, it should go away after a few minutes when the image changes.The latest generation LCD's look more like plasma's than ever before though.

Yes, especially Samsung LCDs, the ToC ones more specifically are more plasma like than anything else out there. I'd definitely look into the A750 since the response time and the features alsmost easily rival plasma in almost every way, both in motion and PQ.

Yes, especially Samsung LCDs, the ToC ones more specifically are more plasma like than anything else out there. I'd definitely look into the A750 since the response time and the features alsmost easily rival plasma in almost every way, both in motion and PQ.

Plasma do better with gaming in My experience.
I thought my pioneer 5080 Plasma did a much better job than my Sony 52XBR4 LCD or my Sammy LNT5271F.
I would have to disagree with you that the newer samsungs rival the best plasmas in PQ and definitly not with motion. The newer samsungs are just as bad as the LNT5271F I had with motion artifact problems. The 120hz and enhanser causes those dreaded clear vapors coming off of people. Don't know what causes that but the higher you turn up the enhanser the worse it gets. And if you turn the enhanser off then the ghosting/motionblurr starts.
Why deal with all that??
Just get a plasma and be done with it IMO

Actually, discussing why manufacturers warn consumers like they do even though they have data which conflicts with these warnings is a good discussion. As far as ramazr goes, he's harmless :). I quite enjoy how all his posts state some sort of "surprise" about CSR claims when they essentially back his agenda to begin with (LOL). That reaks of fabrication and I highly doubt he's actually called anyone.

So lets list some observations:

1 - Manufacturers warn about burn-in in the manual
2 - CSR states burn in can happen in as little as 4 hours (assuming ramazr isn't lying)
3 - Manufacturers themselves have data that shows phoshpor burn-in is highly unlikely unless prolonged additive abuse occurs
4 - Manufacturers themselves have data that shows that Image retention (transient or long lasting) is not caused by phosphor aging
5 - From experience, many forum members can say that permanent burn-in will not occur in 4 hours or even much longer.

Why the conflicting information? Any thoughts ramazr?

First of all, I swear I did call all four companies I mentioned in this thread. Also, you have to give me credit for my suggestion 1 in my post #37 that I am lying. Liars usually don't do this, especially if they name sources.

Your question is spot-on. As far as burn-in, the owners' experience shared here clearly does not match what the plasma manufacturers are saying. If I had to bet, I would tend to put my money on the experience of many rather than on a Samsung lawyer's disclaimer, for example. On the other hand, when I hear the same story from three independent (and competing) sources, I cannot dismiss it easily.

I will make every reasonable attempt to get to the bottom of this great mystery starting with that idiotic warning Samsung includes in their LCD manuals. For now I think that it takes a lot more than six or so hours to cause the damage and they know it. The low numbers CSRs cite are their way of scaring everybody into a super-safe way of operating plasma sets. We will never know the safety margin if for no other reason than that it depends what is projected and the settings.

Finally, as I said in another post, I am really impressed with LG 50PG20 which at low teens looks like a sweet deal for a 50-inch set. They improved on the whites, my favorite target, to the point that I consider this a non-issue.

Does your LCD have a matte screen? If not your ambient light advantage isn't much at all.
You have to 'try'.

yes it's matte and does a fantastic job at deflecting ambient light

The matte screens do a wonderful job, superb job in that regard....but gloss screen LCD's lose that advantage - imo.

Would you consider a TH-42PZ80U panny plasma to be high end?

yes get the panasonic the sony is overpriced. Honestly I used to see IR on my panasonic, but rarely ever see it anymore. I watch tons of 2.35:1 movies and sports with static score boards and tickers. After watching many full NASCAR races, baseball games, football games nothing. You really have to overly abuse plasmas from the last couple years to cause permanent damage. On a side note We have a few LCDs at work with burn in.

I have read scientific papers by SAMSUNG, LG, and Pioneer that state why IR and Burn-In occur. I've even posted the info many times here. Yet people that are clearly smarter than I are still stuck on the phosphor as the source.

I suppose that it could be the TFT that is responsible, or the gas that is used for generating the "Plasma" the emits the UV that excites the phosphors or a combo of any of these.

I guess I could go back through your old posts, but could you repost the papers here so we could all read them?

I suppose that it could be the TFT that is responsible, or the gas that is used for generating the "Plasma" the emits the UV that excites the phosphors or a combo of any of these.

I guess I could go back through your old posts, but could you repost the papers here so we could all read them?I cannot post subsription articles on a public forum. But the abstracts are open to the public. Such as :

http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=DTPSDS000037000001001213000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes

I cannot post subsription articles on a public forum. But the abstracts are open to the public. Such as :

http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=DTPSDS000037000001001213000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes
Yeh, ran into that myself before. Thanks for the link.

I suppose that it could be the TFT that is responsibleNo TFTs in Plasma displays.

i love you guys, i honestly expected this to be a 1 page thread and look at it now

I'm to the point where i can't decide. I think I'm going to buy whatever is the best deal. If i can find a good deal on an samsung lcd, then I'll go with that, or panasonic plasma.

that's the two companies I'll "settle" for. i thank you guys a lot, because at least know i know what to expect.

The last question i'll bother you guys with,

What should I be looking for in an LCD (ie responce times, 60hz v 120hz, etc.?

I've seen 120hz in stores, and sure it looks better but i think we all know a good shopper doesn't go buy what they see in the store.

Once again, this site will forever be bookmarked for all of you guys help. If you're ever in Dallas call me and i'll buy you dinner :D

The matte screens do a wonderful job, superb job in that regard....but gloss screen LCD's lose that advantage - imo.

Yea, matte does a fantastic job at deflecting ambient light
but To me, matte and glossy finish screens have their respective types of glare:
Glossy finish screens will reveal reflections, as it acts mostly as a mirror.

Matte finish screens, when exposed to light, reveal many performance losses. For one thing, light spreads throughout the entirety of the screen, affecting the entire panel as opposed to one or two concentrated areas of light on reflective diplays. Also, when a matte finish is exposed to light, black levels turn to grey, reds to pink; the colors wash-out and pastelize. This throws off color balance and shadow detail ability of the set. Also, picture field depth is compromised, making the set appear to have a 2-D paper effect rather than appear multidimensional.

That being said, The Sony's dont use a matte finish screen. Sony screens are semi-gloss panels, a compriamise between glossy and matte, which will give minor effects of both, thus being the largest loss in performance of any possible combination. The worst of both worlds, as it is. The Sony may appear to be anti-reflective in the showroom under torch mode settings (Vivid), but the worst is yet to come. Try putting it on a natural mode (50-50-50).

The PDP-series Pioneers use screen filtering technology that utilizes the advantages of a glass panel (not losing performance), but at the same time combating the weak spot of a glass panel (reflective glare), by cancelling-out 80% of incoming light (when looking directly at it , look at the Sony in this respect also, it has the same reflectivity). This would be considered the best of both worlds, where performance is preserved and glare minimalized.

i really don't get what you're saying about sony screens
they appear matte but reflect like glass and have both downsides to both types of screens?

i'm staring at my sony right now, sitting directly in front of it and have a lamp beside me where i sit

no reflection at all

in the best buy i go to the sony is next to the pioneer and looks brighter and clearer than the pioneer plasma :confused:

i guess ignorance is bliss:D

in the best buy i go to the sony is next to the pioneer and looks brighter and clearer than the pioneer plasma :confused:

i guess ignorance is bliss:D

If you consider the Sony to look clearer than the pioneer plasma then yes you are confused. Your thinking excatly what the salesmen and the manufacturer want you to think. This is why they create these "showroom" torch mode settings. It may appear that way at first glance.
Some people prefferr the way this looks. Its simply becasue they do not know real PQ or just haven't experienced it yet.
Those torch mode settings and all those enhansers degrade the actual picture quality.
some preferr it becasue its "flashy". But like you said "Ignorance is bliss".

And just becasue you do not see an immediate refelction in your sony like you would on a glossy screen does not mean that the light is not getting in your panel and degrading your PQ. It simply isn't localized to one spot, it is "absorbed"if you will. This degrades the black levels and makes the blacks look greyish. This is One of the main reasons that Samsung has the "super clear panel" on the newer Samsung LCD's and not a matte screen. Which is why the black levels on a samsung are much better than the Sony.
I would suggest you get past the "Showroom" mentality and experience a Pioneer or Panasonic plasma yourself at home. I did and my Sony XBR4 and my Samsung LNT5271F both are now gone. I am an all plasma person now, I have seen the light (or should I say "seen the Blacks').

Sorry I am with bosng. The semi matte, is the best of both worlds in that you get closer to the glossy (away from matte), so your PQ is better, but not as reflective as glossy.

But the way you posted made it sound like you get the really bad reflection of glossy and you get the really bad diffusion of matte in equal doses on a semi-matte screen. That is just plain wrong.

bytor99999

Sorry I am with bosng. The semi matte, is the best of both worlds in that you get closer to the glossy (away from matte), so your PQ is better, but not as reflective as glossy.

But the way you posted made it sound like you get the really bad reflection of glossy and you get the really bad diffusion of matte in equal doses on a semi-matte screen. That is just plain wrong.

bytor99999

With semi-gloss you don't get the blacks like you do with a glossy (like the samsungs, This is why samsung LCD black levels destroy Sony black levels),
And you dont get the full reduction of ambient light reflection that you do with a totally matte screen.
So you lose black levels and you lose the full ability to reduce glare/light absorbtion that a fully Matte screen has.

Samsung panels have good blacks but glare is horrilbe.
Sony panels are ok at reducing glare
But Pioneer panels have the best blacks and reduce glare very well.

your viewing environment must be pitch black

that's the best way to watch a plasma


in the showroom (which is darker than the store's general area) at bb magnolia the sony sets utterly destroy the pioneers. the whites are brighter and the blacks are blacker.

they are both in dynamic or vivid mode or whatever was the default from the manufacturer

if you have a cave to put your plasma in or if you don't mind looking at your own reflection when you watch a movie then a tv with a glass panel is good for you.


i could almost ignore the reflections if the picture could be brighter. so the samsungs are close to being acceptable imo. pioneer still has a ways to go in that regard.

if you watch in an evironment with a moderate amount of light, you have to deal with reflections. don't you think reflections degrade image quality? we are talking about adding an image on top of the one you're supposedly being immersed in. don't you see it when there is alot of black onscreen, the character is sneaking around in the dark and you see your table, your lamp, yourself reflected in the image.

that's the one big hurdle i can't make yet with glass panels. otherwise i'd give it another look.

what size are those sony's and samsungs not being used in your house. you can sell them to me cheap, yes ;)

Before you read the bold print, please be advised that it is a quote. Consequently, do not tell me that I forgot to add "In my opinion" or that I am a fanboy of any kind.

The following is from practical-home-theater-guide.com:

Presence of light: To better understand the impact of the presence of light in a room on the contrast ratio performance of an imaging device, it is sufficient to realize that with the light emitted by just one candle in a room - that's just one LUX - there would not be any difference between a 500:1 and a 5000 or even a 10,000:1 contrast ratio!

Increase the level of light in the room to just 30 LUX - that's equivalent to a dimly lit room - and contrast ratio figures above 50:1 would turn out to be simply academic even in the case of video projectors with relatively high brightness rating (2000/2500 Lumens and above).

It is therefore clear that unless you watch your moves in a completely darkened environment, it would be useless to stress too much and pay more for a device with a higher contrast ratio!

your viewing environment must be pitch black

that's the best way to watch a plasma


in the showroom (which is darker than the store's general area) at bb magnolia the sony sets utterly destroy the pioneers. the whites are brighter and the blacks are blacker.

they are both in dynamic or vivid mode or whatever was the default from the manufacturer

if you have a cave to put your plasma in or if you don't mind looking at your own reflection when you watch a movie then a tv with a glass panel is good for you.


i could almost ignore the reflections if the picture could be brighter. so the samsungs are close to being acceptable imo. pioneer still has a ways to go in that regard.

if you watch in an evironment with a moderate amount of light, you have to deal with reflections. don't you think reflections degrade image quality? we are talking about adding an image on top of the one you're supposedly being immersed in. don't you see it when there is alot of black onscreen, the character is sneaking around in the dark and you see your table, your lamp, yourself reflected in the image.

that's the one big hurdle i can't make yet with glass panels. otherwise i'd give it another look.

what size are those sony's and samsungs not being used in your house. you can sell them to me cheap, yes ;)

You sound exactly like I used to when I had not yet experienced a top-quality plasma and I was "pro LCD" and"Anti-plasma". The next thing you wil probably start talking about is Burn-in.
After watching a Kuro for a while I noticed the horrible motion, grey blacks, backlight bleedthru, clouding, flashlighting, the list goes on and on and on.
This is why most Television reviewers, Magazines, and people who are not new to HDTV pick plasma hands down.
oh and by the way, I can't sell the LNT5271F and the Sony XBR4 becasue they are gone. Traded the Sammy in for the 5080 and sold the XBR4 to a lady I work with. Whats funny is the lady I sold the Sony to came by my house a month after she got the TV and took a look at the 5080 and immediatly started wishing she had one. Now she is upset that she is stuck with the XBR4.

You sound exactly like I used to when I had not yet experienced a top-quality plasma and I was "pro LCD" and"Anti-plasma". The next thing you wil probably start talking about is Burn-in.
After watching a Kuro for a while I noticed the horrible motion, grey blacks, backlight bleedthru, clouding, flashlighting, the list goes on and on and on.
This is why most Television reviewers, Magazines, and people who are not new to HDTV pick plasma hands down.
oh and by the way, I can't sell the LNT5271F and the Sony XBR4 becasue they are gone. Traded the Sammy in for the 5080 and sold the XBR4 to a lady I work with. Whats funny is the lady I sold the Sony to came by my house a month after she got the TV and took a look at the 5080 and immediatly started wishing she had one. Now she is upset that she is stuck with the XBR4.

people are picking plasmas hands down? i suspect the opposite is true.

i don't have any plasmas in my house now but i had two of them and they are gone. they weren't top tier brands but you can understand why i wouldn't plunk down even more money on technology i found inadequate for my environment. when the sunlight came through my bedroom window and hit the screen i could barely make out an image from my plasma but now with a cheapo lcd in the same spot same bedroom i can see the image fine.

if and when they make a plasma that can satisfy me and cure my obsession with looking for reflections in every black spot on the screen then i will take another look.

hopefully the 10g pioneers(?) will have a big increase in brightness without any loss in black level performance.
that would make my head turn to plasmas again.

the glossy samsung lcds certainly have some of that quality but i'm still weary of the glass. even shinier than plasma:eek:

people are picking plasmas hands down? i suspect the opposite is true.


As I said, people who know PQ pick Plasma.
The majority of people walking thru best buy know very little. They listen to the 17 year old salesman telling them not to buy plasma because of burn-in and other bologna.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/jasons_smilie/argue.gif

Just thought I would chime in here. Hate not to get into another thread that has degraded into a PDP vs LCD.

For all of the plasma people out there, ramazur is correct, burn in does still exist.

Has it occurred to you guys that the phosphors that Panny uses may not be the exact ones that Samsung or LG uses? Each company probably has a formulation for phosphors that is considered Top Secret.



Nobody's saying that burn in doesn't exist. It's just at such a small risk in now days technology that it's mostly likely not the fault of the set if it happens, it's the fault of the owner. For all the new plasmas in consumers homes the complaint of burn in is very negligible if really at all. That's all the proof you need. I'll believe ownership of a set (yes, I'm a plasma owner) over a nice young gal that answers the phone. As far as Samsung maybe being more susceptible, there is no proof of that, but even if it's the case, that's hardly a reason for ramazur to make a blanket statement about the technology itself and it's such a minor issue to keep from buying a plasma. To me, it's buy what's pleasing to your eyes.

[QUOTE=bosng;13985728]your viewing environment must be pitch black

that's the best way to watch a plasma


in the showroom (which is darker than the store's general area) at bb magnolia the sony sets utterly destroy the pioneers. the whites are brighter and the blacks are blacker.

QUOTE]

Now that's just utter bull. You do not need a pitch black room to enjoy plasma and the Sony sets (you didn't even specify what model) do not "destroy" the Pioneers (again you didn't specify any model). The top of the line XBR is a very nice set and would be an excellent set for anyone, but after viewing them both, I would choose the Pioneer Elite over it every day of the week, but that's my eyes. I always think it's important for the individual to see rather than make a blanket statement that Brand A "destroys" Brand B.

As I said, people who know PQ pick Plasma.
The majority of people walking thru best buy know very little. They listen to the 17 year old salesman telling them not to buy plasma because of burn-in and other bologna.

I must be living on a different planet. I have been to the BB and CC stores in my area so many times they know me by name. On many occassions I would actually do what in law is called "leading the witness" and try to make their staff agree with the accusations leveled here at plasmas, including burn-in, or LCDs. In each and every case, without exceptions, they were very respectful of they believed were my opinions but did not engage in criticism of plasmas. On the contrary, they would only state what their website says and what the official positions of the manufacturers are. One of the best examples of their hands-off position was when looking at a plasma and, next to it, LCD sets showing snow, and we know what a great job plasmas are capable of when showing snow, their only comment would be that some like plasmas and some like LCDs.

The alleged bashing of plasmas by the 17-year-olds makes no sense on another level: according to the common knowledge that burn-in is a thing of the past why would they be allowed to lie and get Panasonic mad, the company that would be hurt the most? At least Samsung has an LCD to offer to a buyer who bought the lie about plasma burn-in.

In order for these misguided 17-year-olds to sway the market, this pattern of deception would have to be massive. How many times did one of them actually tell you that plasmas are likely to suffer from burn-in? If it was not your personal experience, how many times did you witness plasma bashing by a salesman?

If you think that is how all BB and CC employees are then you are wrong.
Some do know a little bit and some are clueless.(from 16 to 50)
But most people going into a big box store are also relatively clueless and most employees aren't able to actually listen and then subsequently offer good advice.
They are also handicapped by there aweful enviroments if they did want to offer insight.

[QUOTE=ramazur;13986595] Consequently, do not tell me that I forgot to add "In my opinion" or that I am a fanboy of any kind.

Quite transparent in regards to plasma threads here, to those who surf these forums regularly.
Mask it however you wish but it will never be more than just thinly veiled.

I must be living on a different planet. I have been to the BB and CC stores in my area so many times they know me by name. On many occassions I would actually do what in law is called "leading the witness" and try to make their staff agree with the accusations leveled here at plasmas, including burn-in, or LCDs. In each and every case, without exceptions, they were very respectful of they believed were my opinions but did not engage in criticism of plasmas. On the contrary, they would only state what their website says and what the official positions of the manufacturers are. One of the best examples of their hands-off position was when looking at a plasma and, next to it, LCD sets showing snow, and we know what a great job plasmas are capable of when showing snow, their only comment would be that some like plasmas and some like LCDs.

The alleged bashing of plasmas by the 17-year-olds makes no sense on another level: according to the common knowledge that burn-in is a thing of the past why would they be allowed to lie and get Panasonic mad, the company that would be hurt the most? At least Samsung has an LCD to offer to a buyer who bought the lie about plasma burn-in.

In order for these misguided 17-year-olds to sway the market, this pattern of deception would have to be massive. How many times did one of them actually tell you that plasmas are likely to suffer from burn-in? If it was not your personal experience, how many times did you witness plasma bashing by a salesman?

I have found the staff at BB and CC less than knowledgeable on the products they are selling. There are some that do know what they are talking about, but in my experience they are few and far between. I don't necessarily blame the kids as they are trying there best but just aren't trained properly and it follows the old adage, you get what you pay for. Those stores are the last source I would use for reliable information but to each there own. Unfortunately for the average consumer that just drops into a store to buy a new TV they are at the mercy of that kid that was just hired two days ago and is now considered an expert. :cool:

Some do know a little bit and some are clueless.(from 16 to 50)
But most people going into a big box store are also relatively clueless and most employees aren't able to actually listen and then subsequently offer good advice.
They are also handicapped by there aweful enviroments if they did want to offer insight.

When I post here I expect a merit-based discussion or even a debate. Some of the responses, like yours now, make me wonder if we are communicating in the same language.

By the way, what on earth did you mean by that from 16 to 50 remark? I am a fairly intelligent guy but I can't decypher this one.

My post was fine. What about it is incorrect? It is also very relevant to your post which it is in response to.
16 to 50 means there are salesman across the range of age that are unable to help.
You love to spin that wheel huh?

My post was fine. What about it is incorrect? It is also very relevant to your post which it is in response to.
16 to 50 means there are salesman across the range of age that are unable to help.
You love to spin that wheel huh?

And those over 50 were able or there are no sales people older than 50? Did you conduct a study that resulted in this finding or are you quoting a source you trust?

Anyway, don't feel bad if your numbers of 16 and 50 are just off-the-cuff baseless talk. Unfortunately, you are not alone here in this regard as this forum is full of claims that something is 99.999%, most people are dumb, etc. Would you believe that one of the posters advised me to check if the next guy at BB I will have a chance to talk to knows how to count to 50? I find such attempts to diminish others unbecoming and annoying. It is a source of fascination to me that the same posters who will jump on anybody "bashing" their favorite toy will bash people they never met and who never did them any wrong.

And those over 50 were able or there are no sales people older than 50? Did you conduct a study that resulted in this finding or are you quoting a source you trust?

Anyway, don't feel bad if your numbers of 16 and 50 are just off-the-cuff baseless talk. Unfortunately, you are not alone here in this regard as this forum is full of claims that something is 99.999%, most people are dumb, etc. Would you believe that one of the posters advised me to check if the next guy at BB I will have a chance to talk to knows how to count to 50? I find such attempts to diminish others unbecoming and annoying. It is a source of fascination to me that the same posters who will jump on anybody "bashing" their favorite toy will bash people they never met and who never did them any wrong.

Get a clue ramazur. It was obvious he was being sarcastic and you completely missed the point. If you value CC and BB's sales team then good for you, but I think the majority of folks on here are at least 2 steps ahead of them but you believe what you want as you haven't provided anything to substantiate most of your claims.

Get a clue ramazur. It was obvious he was being sarcastic and you completely missed the point. If you value CC and BB's sales team then good for you, but I think the majority of folks on here are at least 2 steps ahead of them but you believe what you want as you haven't provided anything to substantiate most of your claims.

He had a chance to claim sarcasm but didn't. I am glad somebody knew what was on his mind. Believe me I know sarcasm when I see one.

He had a chance to claim sarcasm but didn't. I am glad somebody knew what was on his mind. Believe me I know sarcasm when I see one.

regardless, you still missed the point. CC and BB aren't reliable sources for technical information.

:rolleyes:

As I said, people who know PQ pick Plasma.
The majority of people walking thru best buy know very little. They listen to the 17 year old salesman telling them not to buy plasma because of burn-in and other bologna.

++++1..... if that exists. LOL! I heard a lot from you chadmak09 in last few weeks, keep it up. Your putting great information out there.

As for the burn in thing. Plasmas are at the top of there game. They are at the point of crt burn in. So put it to you this way have you ever burned in your crt tv??? I never have, I've seen some that were burned in, but it was extreme serious abuse.

just got back from best buy again, damn these tv's are sucking me back into wanting to buy again! i have a disease, upgrade-itis i think it's called.


those damn sexy samsungs 650 and 750 series are something else. i know they are glossy screens which i hate, hate hate hate but......damn these are niiiiiiiiiice.

i even went into the magnolia section looking at the pioneers which i do dutifully just because all of the talk here just dictates that i do this and try to have an open mind.

i look at the 81 series samsung in the 71" variety and it has a hefty price tag and realize i have extreme screen real estate envy and in a moment of weakness may talk myself into laying out some extreme caish. however, i get pulled back over to those "touch of color" sets and drool.

regardless, you still missed the point. CC and BB aren't reliable sources for technical information.

:rolleyes:

Do you recall the last incident when they gave you false information or didn't know what a sales person is expected to know? Please be specific if you can.

Do you recall the last incident when they gave you false information or didn't know what a sales person is expected to know? Please be specific if you can.

Yes, a BB salesperson told me a specific TV was 1080p when in fact it was a 720p set and at CC a sales person said that Pioneer will no longer be in the plasma business as they sold out to Panasonic. I was also informed at a BB/Magnolia, when I was inquiring about a Blu Ray player and the Pioneer VSX 92 that there is no material out that will take advantage of the new surround formats such as DTS HDMA and DD THD (that was about 2 months ago). Those are 3 quick examples off the top of my head, but I avoid conversations with them unless I feel the urge to educate them. Nice kids, but most just don't know that much about their products.

A B&M is only as reliable as the person in front of you. At places like BBY, YMMV when it comes to expertise. If the store is run well and has a good management team, you'll have a much better store when it comes to product knowledge than elsewhere. I like to think I'm fairly reliable. ;)

Edit: That said I'd probably head toward a plasma if you were me. IR isn't a huge issue for a lot of sets, and even in our MHT room it's pretty obvious that the Pioneers are pushing a much better black level than anything anyone else has to offer. As far as the stationary image is concerned and PC use- don't forget that computers still ship with screensavers nowadays.

Also, anyone who says an LCD doesn't have the same burn-in problems as a plasma is somewhat misled. My Gateway monitor from about 3 years ago has a nice big grey line where the scrollbar was on my desktop, and a few of the 6 month old Samsung LCDs we recently put in are showing quite a bit of burn in as well. How you treat your TV is really what's going to impact its resilience, and proper break in on a plasma should minimize the impact.

-I'd like 50'+

Baring Rear Projection (and the 61A750 ain't bad at all) Plasma is going to generally offer you bigger for less.


-dark room so glare doesn't matter

Plasma's biggest weakness (imo) is mitigated and the somewhat dimmer white levels will not be as overpowering. Note- a calibrated LCD will usually be about 50-60% as bright as out of box, so if you're going to calibrate it (and why wouldn't you?) make sure you turn down the brightness on any display in front of you to around that level before passing judgement.

-under or around 2k

Again, LCD typically is going to be more expensive for quality at this size, while the Samsung A550 falls right around where you're looking.

-ability to hook up computer

Most units will have VGA, but if you have a video card that can push 16x9 then I would recommend DVI->HDMI, the component outputs on Geforce 6-7-8-9 series (ATI x, x1, HD 2, HD 3 series also) cards, or just running straight HDMI to your television. The ATI HD 2 and 3 series cards also support audio over HDMI at 5.1. If you're not gaming, I'd use a Radeon HD 3450 or a 3850/3870 if you are. If you have a laptop, you'll probably be limited to VGA.

If you're worried about IR for this sort of setup, you can always go with a screensaver. ISF however found that even more recent displays when they ran a game menu for several days straight were able to knock the IR out of it (albiet it was in about twice the time). Apple isn't concerned about IR on their AppleTV displays. I wouldn't be either.

Yes, a BB salesperson told me a specific TV was 1080p when in fact it was a 720p set and at CC a sales person said that Pioneer will no longer be in the plasma business as they sold out to Panasonic. I was also informed at a BB/Magnolia, when I was inquiring about a Blu Ray player and the Pioneer VSX 92 that there is no material out that will take advantage of the new surround formats such as DTS HDMA and DD THD (that was about 2 months ago). Those are 3 quick examples off the top of my head, but I avoid conversations with them unless I feel the urge to educate them. Nice kids, but most just don't know that much about their products.

Fair enough. In their defense I would submit that the examples you gave are not, in my opinion, open and shut cases. There is a thread at AVS urging class action against manufacturers who allegedly engaged in misleading claims regarding 1080p. That led to confusion if it was the native resolution or input compatability they claimed. Pioneer is, indeed, planning to quit making plasma panels. I would not expect any sales person, regardless of age, to know the arrangements between Pioneer and Panasonic. The Pioneer VSX92 item is, I suspect without proof, too deep for most AVS posters.

At the end I do appreciate your reply.

I do.
My local CC guys about five months ago told me that plasmas will be at half life at 10K hours.
They told me that I have to have a Ultra High Speed 1.3HDMI.
They told me that Sony and Samsung LCD's have better processing than any plasma, including SD.
They told me that I cannot play video games for more than two hours on any plasma.

BB's employess are a little more knowledgeable.
Both the manager and lead salesman recommended the Kuro's first and then the Panny plasmas and then the Sony and Samsung LCD's.
But they also said If I want to play any video games to get an LCD.
They also after I told them I own a particular AVR that does pass through everything that I would want to run an optical audio for my audio.

Should I go on?

I don't expect them to be world beaters in the arena of flat panel knowledge, this is not an attempt to bash anyone just lating out the facts for newbies to see that they are not the places or people to get their buying info. from.

Fair enough. The Pioneer VSX92 item is, I suspect without proof, too deep for most AVS posters.


You certainly love to say how dumb we the avs members are.
And you say it alot.
Get your facts straight about Pioneer as well, they are not done with plasmas.

With semi-gloss you don't get the blacks like you do with a glossy (like the samsungs, This is why samsung LCD black levels destroy Sony black levels),
And you dont get the full reduction of ambient light reflection that you do with a totally matte screen.
So you lose black levels and you lose the full ability to reduce glare/light absorbtion that a fully Matte screen has.

Samsung panels have good blacks but glare is horrilbe.
Sony panels are ok at reducing glare
But Pioneer panels have the best blacks and reduce glare very well.

I agree with your statement. I think reading an earlier post made it sound like it was saying a semi-matte gets the full negative effects of both glossy and matte screen. Meaning the reflection of a semi-matte is just as bad in a full glossy.
And the diffusion is just as bad in a semi-matte as a full matte.

bytor99999

You certainly love to say how dumb we the avs members are.
And you say it alot.
Get your facts straight about Pioneer as well, they are not done with plasmas.

I think the best thing for us in this thread is just to ignore ramazur. I think we have made our point on how ramazur posts/works, and that is all we need to do. Let ramazur rant on whatever. It just isn't worth our time.

bytor99999

You certainly love to say how dumb we the avs members are.
And you say it alot.
Get your facts straight about Pioneer as well, they are not done with plasmas.

I will be honest: my life would less exciting without posts like yours. Here are the facts:

TOKYO (Reuters) - Japan's Pioneer Corp (6773.T: Quote, Profile, Research) is finalizing plans to stop all production of plasma display panels in a bid to turn around its loss-making flat TV operations, an industry source briefed on the plan said on Tuesday.

The above is a cut-and-paste from Reuters website. In my last post I wrote:

Pioneer is, indeed, planning to quit making plasma panels.

I see a remarkable similarity between the two statements. Yet, you wrote:

Get your facts straight about Pioneer as well, they are not done with plasmas

Please explain to me this: Where did I say that Pioneer is done with plasmas?

I will be honest: my life would less exciting without posts like yours. Here are the facts:

TOKYO (Reuters) - Japan's Pioneer Corp (6773.T: Quote, Profile, Research) is finalizing plans to stop all production of plasma display panels in a bid to turn around its loss-making flat TV operations, an industry source briefed on the plan said on Tuesday.

The above is a cut-and-paste from Reuters website. In my last post I wrote:

Pioneer is, indeed, planning to quit making plasma panels.

I see a remarkable similarity between the two statements. Yet, you wrote:

Get your facts straight about Pioneer as well, they are not done with plasmas

Please explain to me this: Where did I say that Pioneer is done with plasmas?

OK, so I am not completely ignoring you ;)

I see what you are saying, and the news article and what you said, do both match. The key word being "panel" as in the "glass" in the front of the TV and not the entire TV. :D

bytor99999

Pioneer is, indeed, planning to quit making plasma panels. I would not expect any sales person, regardless of age, to know the arrangements between Pioneer and Panasonic.

Ironic counter-example: I was in BB last week (looking at a plasma TV for my new condo), and discussing Pioneer versus Panasonic plasma TVs with a couple salespeople. One of them actually mentioned, in the course of discussing how he thought the Panasonic PZ800 was better than the Pioneer 5010, that Pioneer was probably going to be switching over to using Panasonic for their panel manufacturing.

They also mentioned burn-in, but said that it was way less of an issue than on older plasmas. One was quite enthusiastic about how awesome Gears of War and COD4 looked on a plasma.

I've seen BB and CC employees say all sorts of incorrect crap too. YMMV.

I've also seen LCDs (PC LCD monitors) with seemingly permanent "burn-in"/IR. But they were displaying static images for months at a time, and maybe it would eventually dissipate if it was just really bad IR. LCD displays aren't completely immune to image retention, just very resistant.

man im scare to post in here in fear that i will get countless of emails from this thread:(

but to keep it short : i skip after page 3 and where is OP? pioneer is not leaving the plasma buisness they are out soucing their glass or panel to panasonic after this year which will be 10g.

manufactures have to lable that plasma can burn in to held them self from liablity or theirs another proper word (sorry my english isnt soo great)
i have a 42px75u that i abused from day 1 when halo 3 came out to now when gta4 came out i would be up early in the morning play all day (radar) i go to a black screen with no signal i see temporarly IR yep but i put regular tv 30 mins tops erased countless of hrs of fun.

lcd can also get damged by ir/bi but as much as it is unlikely for lcd its virtualy the same point for plasma...

buy a plasma break in couple hundred hrs ( i did not) play games normaly mix content and enjoy life

dont get lcd too many flaws. i can go on and on with technicle detail or long explantion but to save it just get plasma.

man im scare to post in here in fear that i will get countless of emails from this thread:(

but to keep it short : i skip after page 3 and where is OP? pioneer is not leaving the plasma buisness they are out soucing their glass or panel to panasonic after this year which will be 10g.

manufactures have to lable that plasma can burn in to held them self from liablity or theirs another proper word (sorry my english isnt soo great)
i have a 42px75u that i abused from day 1 when halo 3 came out to now when gta4 came out i would be up early in the morning play all day (radar) i go to a black screen with no signal i see temporarly IR yep but i put regular tv 30 mins tops erased countless of hrs of fun.

lcd can also get damged by ir/bi but as much as it is unlikely for lcd its virtualy the same point for plasma...

buy a plasma break in couple hundred hrs ( i did not) play games normaly mix content and enjoy life

dont get lcd too many flaws. i can go on and on with technicle detail or long explantion but to save it just get plasma.

I agree.

the Best rule of thumb I can give a buyer who is trying to decide between LCd and plasma is:

If you plan on watching it, Get a plasma. End of story.