Forgive the length of this rant.
Some months ago I complained (on a different forum) about Xbox Live, specifically how if you purchase a Gold subscription via the Marketplace (1 month, which I purchased for the wife last year) that you have to ring them up and cancel after the designated time is up, otherwise they continue to charge you indefinately. Well it was December last year when I rang and realised they had charged me for 4 months despite not using the account (even the paid 1 month!). That thread is HERE (http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=58726&hl=).

Anyways, in December when I rang, naturally enough I asked for her subscription to be cancelled, which I was told would be, but seeing as I/she was half way through the month and it had already been charged, it would remain active until the end of that month.

Fast forward to today. I dont look at my CC statement too much as the good lady handles all our financial affairs, but this morning a peaked a look and lo and behold, another monthly charge. Check all the other statements since December and sure enough, still being charged. So get through to Achmed in Pakistan or wherever and they tell me it isnt cancelled, DESPITE them telling me that the December call is logged and the subject of that call is "Account Cancellation"! Apparantely they tell me the call was disconnected (incorrect) and the process never completed (Bullsh*t - it was a 65 minute call). Because of this they refuse to refund me the last 4 months of this year.
So not only do they shaft me with small print last year (fair enough, I reluctantly accept that one), they make more money out of me this year by pretending I never had a phone call about cancellation of services, despite telling me they have it logged! When I requested a supervisor I was (deliberately I suspect) left on hold for so long I wanted to hang up, but didnt, and when I spoke to him he just repeated the usual company line. I asked for his full name and job title (refused apart from first name) and where this phone call was taking place (again refused). I requested to hear the recording of my call which took place in December to confirm I had requested the cancellation of my wifes account, but instead was told while they do record calls, there is no protocol for allowing a consumer to hear it, and if I rang back in a few weeks they might have an answer regarding hearing it. They refused to send me email confirmation of this cancellation, despite the fact that when your prepaid subscription is nearly at an end they DO email you! And he said that had I bought a 1 year subscription, a refund would be the outcome. I asked why the rule is different for a one year versus a 1 month - he had no answer. I suspect he is fibbing on that one. It has now cost me more than a 1 years subscription, and my wife has NEVER even used the account (confirmed by XBox).
I am really extremely angry with this. I have rung my CC bank and asked them to dispute the last 4 months payments, but Im not expecting a result there. This is blatant stealing from me. I follow their protocol and some idiot doesnt do his job and Im left paying for it.

Should I ring my local Consumer Affairs?

I would like to sympathize with you- Microsoft made a blunder. But, they've gotta be thinking why it took you four whole months to notice you were still being charged.

I would like to sympathize with you- Microsoft made a blunder. But, they've gotta be thinking why it took you four whole months to notice you were still being charged.

Yes maybe youre right, but the bottom line is I followed their required protocol, rang and cancelled and they continued to charge. Even this time they refuse to send me email confirmation that the account has been cancelled, so am I expected to spend the next 30 days wondering if a global monopoly can do their job right, twice?

Whether it took a week or a year to notice is irrelevant - its their mistake and they should fix it. I asked them 4 months ago to stop taking money from me. They decided to continue.

Forgive me for not checking up on my CC statement - real life got in the way. Your mind tends to be elsewhere when you find out your mothers dead body has been found in her flat after 6 weeks, but I digress.

Wow did this thread go six miles into crazytown. I suggest a mod delete here.

Sorry Cynn but i do not wish this thread to be deleted. It raises a very important point about large companies such as Microsoft being in an arrogant position to bend the rules the way they see them, and steal from honest folk. However I just dont understand why fellow members criticise the way Ive done things. Microsft are at fault here, not me, yet Im being scrutinised because I didnt check my statement?

Dispute with your CC company and have them reverse the charges.

Sorry Cynn but i do not wish this thread to be deleted. It raises a very important point about large companies such as Microsoft being in an arrogant position to bend the rules the way they see them, and steal from honest folk. However I just dont understand why fellow members criticise the way Ive done things. Microsft are at fault here, not me, yet Im being scrutinised because I didnt check my statement?

Mark, welcome to the wonderful world that is the internet, some people act as if a person is wasting thier time by posting something they feel is irrelevant, something I've come to live with. These forums are a means of communication, and a form of self expression. If you truly feel so strongly about it, I would write a letter to corporate, although you may not be reimbursed, you will be ensuring that what is being done will not go unnoticed, and hopefully ensure that it does not happen to anyone else.

Dispute with your CC company and have them reverse the charges.

bingo.. and for the 1134th time.. the world doesnt have to know about it..

God knows if all of us started a thread about every customer service problem we've encountered.. this forum wouldnt ever discuss actually playing games..

is it really that big of a deal that you lost $50? I know it's the principal but come on, just get over it. You sound like your older than 13 so money shouldn't be a problem.

Is this attitude maybe why big Corps. get away with these unethical practices? It's a sad realization but most people could give a damn about what happens to Joe Blow, and most always side with the corp. and assume it must be the consumers fault. As long as it doesn't affect them then "oh well". I'm just as guilty of this type of attitude as well, but I do try to be as sympathetic as possible and listen when someone has a complaint. And before I attacked by anyone I'll say that it's only my opinion and I'm not calling out anyone, just offering food for thought.

is it really that big of a deal that you lost $50? I know it's the principal but come on, just get over it. You sound like your older than 13 so money shouldn't be a problem.

You're kidding right? I bought a 1 month subscription for Gold via Marketplace (AU$10.95). Now here we are a year later and that 1 month has actually cost me AU$120.45 - half of that by way of sneaky Terms and Conditions and the other half, well, because Microsoft feel they can. You are correct about one thing, money isnt a problem, but does that make it alright?

And anybody who has an issue with this thread and would rather discuss games, go play in the 300+ other threads that do discuss 'em. Leave this thread for those of us interested in the ethics of big corporations and theyre attitude toward people who their product is aimed at.

Even though you expected them to remember a conversation from whatever time frame to cancel your account, you didn't get the email that tells you your account is coming up on renewal 1 month prior?

Even though you expected them to remember a conversation from whatever time frame to cancel your account, you didn't get the email that tells you your account is coming up on renewal 1 month prior?

Maybe he was too busy with the real world to check his email..;)

That sucks man but...

"I dont look at my CC statement too much as the good lady handles all our financial affairs."

If the two of you can go 4 months without noticing you are spending money on a canceled LIVE membership, I doubt the cost could be considered part of your "financial affairs"

I wouldn't walk across the room, pick up the phone and call anyone for that little dough but to each his own. The CC company might be able to reverse the charges, give it a shot if it bothers you that much... good luck.

They didn't do their job, period. Yes, contact your local Consumer Affairs.

This is why you buy a XBL Gold card and enter the code. Can't be billed to a cc that isn't in the system. I buy both MS points and Live Gold this way.

That sucks man but...

"I dont look at my CC statement too much as the good lady handles all our financial affairs."

If the two of you can go 4 months without noticing you are spending money on a canceled LIVE membership, I doubt the cost could be considered part of your "financial affairs"

I wouldn't walk across the room, pick up the phone and call anyone for that little dough but to each his own. The CC company might be able to reverse the charges, give it a shot if it bothers you that much... good luck.
Wow. Wish I had money to just piss away. Do you light your cigars with $100 bills too?

To the OP - definitely challenge those charges. I had a similar thing happen to me. I ended up cancelling the CC. Everytime my account expires now (I use the xbox live cards you buy in the store now), I get an extra month of free live because they will not shut off your account if you have a CC listed, but the charges won't go through. They essentially put the account in arrears in the hope people will just roll over and let them take your money. But they cannot do that if you use the cards ;)

hmmm I have cancelled my account before and didn't have any issue.

The issue is not whether the OP checks his statement or should just forget the charge because its not excessive but the fact that it again highlights MS's ridiculous policy of allowing you to purchase Live services with a credit card via your Xbox but offers no way to cancel these services and it seems in fact they go out of their way to make it as difficult as possible to cancel while continuing to charge you and then having the cheek to refuse to refund unwanted charges.

We have read many accounts of incidents like this and it always seems the only solution is to go through the hassle of cancelling your card. Fine print or not if a customer expresses a desire to cancel a service and follows the required procedure he should be able to assume that these services will be cancelled and not have to resort to thinking of legal action. After all, this is only a game console.

I hope the OP gets his situation sorted, its really high time this BS from Microsoft stopped.

That's why I buy the 12+1 cards... No hassle... Plus you can get them cheaper than retail sometimes...

Wow, I can't believe all the people who seem OK with this! As much as $50 lost wouldn't hurt me overall financially, that's MY MONEY not Microsoft's, know what I mean? I wouldn't care if it was $50 or 50 cents, the point is the guy instructed them to stop the automatic debits and they didn't. Upon follow up, they don't even want to refund the guy this money from after when he instructed them to cancel the account. It's a shady business practice, and it should most definitely be exposed in public forums. You know if they are doing this to one dude, they're doing it to thousands of people worldwide. It's theft, plain and simple.

I got no sympathy for you,sorry. When you cancel they give you a confirmation number and I assume you either were to lazy to write it down,or never got on. Either way,thats on you. Also,you let this go on for 6 months?
I have cancelled 2 accounts and even have gotten a refund on the unused time. Never really had a problem with the customer support.

I dont look at my CC statement too much as the good lady handles all our financial affairs

That is why your in this situation now and I can guess this isn't the first time somthing like this happen with anything else. If you have one person in a marriage looking at CC statements but "YOU" were on the phone with MS about this months ago I don't see how that concept works. Maybe you should now start sitting down with the your wife and looking over the bills together to avoid any of these incidents in the future so you both know what is going on. Based on everything you said that happened it is obvious this plan of your wife only looking at statements obviously isn't working.

I don't like to blow my money either but he wrote exactly what some of you are not seeing is the actual problem.

That is why your in this situation now and I can guess this isn't the first time somthing like this happen with anything else. If you have one person in a marriage looking at CC statements but "YOU" were on the phone with MS about this months ago I don't see how that concept works. Maybe you should now start sitting down with the your wife and looking over the bills together to avoid any of these incidents in the future so you both know what is going on. Based on everything you said that happened it is obvious this plan of your wife only looking at statements obviously isn't working.

I don't like to blow my money either but he wrote exactly what some of you are not seeing is the actual problem.

I disagree. Isnt the actual problem that he told MS to cancel the service but they didnt and continued charging him? Sure he could have kept a closer eye on his statement but its not as though he sat around just hoping MS would cancel his service, he did actually call and ask for it to be cancelled.

I agree with lots of sentiments thus far. Sympathy for the OP, but I also agree that you asked for this by not checking your CC statement. Get on top of that and check every month, and if you notice something out of wack, you bombard them immediately. I watch all of my accounts/statements like a hawk. If I smell a fart, Im on that phone immediately.

Customer service mishaps happen all the time, to all of us. Bill Gates himself isnt going to call you and apologize, you're going to have to deal with Aptar PoonJabi. Its just the nature of it. Keep raising hell until it gets taken care of.

I think the OP recognizes that he made a mistake by not checking up on his CC statement. It sucks that he has to be hyper-vigilant to make sure he doesn't get ripped off though. He did take the appropriate steps towards canceling and MS didn't do their part, that's my take on the situation. The above poster is right though you're just going to have to raise some hell. By the way (I'm sure everyone knows this) he's not the only person who has complained or encountered this problem when it comes to canceling his subscription.

Yes maybe youre right, but the bottom line is I followed their required protocol, rang and cancelled and they continued to charge. Even this time they refuse to send me email confirmation that the account has been cancelled, so am I expected to spend the next 30 days wondering if a global monopoly can do their job right, twice?

Whether it took a week or a year to notice is irrelevant - its their mistake and they should fix it. I asked them 4 months ago to stop taking money from me. They decided to continue.

Forgive me for not checking up on my CC statement - real life got in the way. Your mind tends to be elsewhere when you find out your mothers dead body has been found in her flat after 6 weeks, but I digress.
My point was that you were SOOOOOO vehement about Microsoft canceling your live membership but you couldn't take half a second to check your statement to ensure that it had been done. I wasn't really trying to scrutinize you, just pointing out why I can't sympathize.

I mean, what do you want us to say? I can see why you're angry, but I disagree that they're "thieves and liars". Have your CC company stick it to MS, problem solved.

While it may seem that a super-corporation like MS is wanting to bend rules to stick it to consumers, but realize that companies like MS have to do everything they can to protect themselves from consumers. It's a fine balance between acommodating your customers and protecting yourself from consumer that would take advantage of you simply because you're a huge corporation. When someone calls and says they called previously to cancel their account, but then lets it sit for four months, it looks suspicious to them.

Oh well, good luck in getting it all sorted out.

I can't believe it takes a 65 minute phone call to cancel an xbox live account. Thier should just be a button under account managment but then i guess if they had that MarkH wouldn't be in the situtation hes in. You just have to wonder how many other people are too lazy/intimidated to put up with a 65 minute phone call to India.

I would really think they should Reimburse you for the 4 months that you never used (confirmed by them)

I can't believe alot of you are saying its his fault, just accepting that microsoft routinly screws people over and its up to you to check your credit card statement every month.

I can't believe alot of you are saying its his fault,
No one has said it's his fault solely. People are just saying why it's tough to sympathize with his plight.


just accepting that microsoft routinly screws people over
They really don't. They do routinely accomodate people, though. But you're always going to have unsatisfied customers.


and its up to you to check your credit card statement every month.
Well, it is. Who else is it up to?

Sure he could have kept a closer eye on his statement but its not as though he sat around just hoping MS would cancel his service, he did actually call and ask for it to be cancelled

That is the whole point I don't see what you have to disagree with if you think he could have kept a closer look. Maybe this thread woudn't have been created if he did keep a closer look at the statements that have said for 6 months you are being charged.

is it really that big of a deal that you lost $50? I know it's the principal but come on, just get over it. You sound like your older than 13 so money shouldn't be a problem.

Useless post. It is irrelevant if $50 is a big deal or not. When does it become a big deal? $100? $200? And who decides when it becomes a big deal? You? Being older than 13 and having a job doesn't mean $50 is nothing, especially in this day and age.

Is this attitude maybe why big Corps. get away with these unethical practices? It's a sad realization but most people could give a damn about what happens to Joe Blow, and most always side with the corp. and assume it must be the consumers fault. As long as it doesn't affect them then "oh well". I'm just as guilty of this type of attitude as well, but I do try to be as sympathetic as possible and listen when someone has a complaint. And before I attacked by anyone I'll say that it's only my opinion and I'm not calling out anyone, just offering food for thought.

Agreed. While it is always a good idea to watch your statements, etc, that doesn't mean it is ok for a company to keep taking his money. Should he keep calling MS every month asking them to ensure the account is cancelled? Come on now....

hmmm I have cancelled my account before and didn't have any issue.

And that means what? That it isn't possible for anyone else to have had a problem?

That is the whole point I don't see what you have to disagree with if you think he could have kept a closer look. Maybe this thread woudn't have been created if he did keep a closer look at the statements that have said for 6 months you are being charged.


But he didn't keep a closer look because he took the correct steps to cancel his subscription. Just because some people scrutinize their bills every month doesn't mean that everyone has to do as they do or they'll get screwed. He followed the correct procedure for canceling his subscription, as for following up and checking his CC bill every month to make sure that MS won't rip him off, that's ridiculous.

But he didn't keep a closer look because he took the correct steps to cancel his subscription. Just because some people scrutinize their bills every month doesn't mean that everyone has to do as they do or they'll get screwed. He followed the correct procedure for canceling his subscription, as for following up and checking his CC bill every month to make sure that MS won't rip him off, that's ridiculous.

He didn't have to check it "every month" - he had to check it for one month, the month following his cancellation request. If he gets billed, he calls them back then and says "Excuse me, I have cancellation number ABC123 here saying you guys aren't billing me any more. Reverse the charges or I'll do a chargeback."

But it's all M-Dollar-Sign's fault, of course. Financial responsibility is just waaaay too much work in this day and age. :rolleyes:

To the OP... sorry you have gone through this, but you've pointed out what I've heard from other sources -- canceling a credit card tied to an Xbox Live account is a pita. :(

My credit card on file with my XBL account expires this month, and after reading this thread I've decided to buy my subscriptions and points via cards from Amazon or retail from here on out.

So even though MS has done you wrong and people in this thread have given you unnecessary grief... you've helped me be aware of this potential situation and how I can easily prevent the same problem. Thanks for sharing.

He didn't have to check it "every month" - he had to check it for one month, the month following his cancellation request. If he gets billed, he calls them back then and says "Excuse me, I have cancellation number ABC123 here saying you guys aren't billing me any more. Reverse the charges or I'll do a chargeback."

But it's all M-Dollar-Sign's fault, of course. Financial responsibility is just waaaay too much work in this day and age. :rolleyes:

Because responsibility to one's customers is waaaaay too much to expect in this day and age. :rolleyes:

He didn't have to check it "every month" - he had to check it for one month, the month following his cancellation request. If he gets billed, he calls them back then and says "Excuse me, I have cancellation number ABC123 here saying you guys aren't billing me any more. Reverse the charges or I'll do a chargeback."

But it's all M-Dollar-Sign's fault, of course. Financial responsibility is just waaaay too much work in this day and age. :rolleyes:

You should not have to check it period. I got the impression from the OP the first phone call was not a simple as dialing a number (63 minutes?).

That is the whole point I don't see what you have to disagree with if you think he could have kept a closer look. Maybe this thread woudn't have been created if he did keep a closer look at the statements that have said for 6 months you are being charged.

No offense mate, I was just responding to your point in the spirit of discussion that keeping an eye on his statement was the issue whereas I feel the issue was the fact that MS did not carry out the cancellation as requested.

No sympathy here, sorry. I think my problem with this is your whole attitude. You just don't seem to be using your head.

First of all, the mistake in December was just that, a mistake by some customer service guy who probably gets paid crap and has to sit there all day and attempt to be civil to people who generally aren't calling because they're thrilled with their service.

by pretending I never had a phone call about cancellation of services, despite telling me they have it logged!
Obviously they're not pretending the call never happened, as they told you it was logged.

I seriously doubt that you were deliberately left on hold. These people are paid/graded on the number of calls they take. I guess they must just have it out for YOU.

when I spoke to him he just repeated the usual company line
What did you expect him to say? The call center supervisor isn't going to throw his employee under the bus. 99% of the time the supervisor will automatically side with the employee. There are too many variables when dealing with customers to assume they're right. I know that's the way we'd all like it to be, but unfortunately it just isn't the case.

asked for his full name and job title (refused apart from first name) and where this phone call was taking place (again refused).
And here's the attitude again. Would you give out your full name and work location to some irate stranger? And yet, to you, somehow this is some evil company agenda.

I requested to hear the recording of my call which took place in December to confirm I had requested the cancellation of my wifes account, but instead was told while they do record calls, there is no protocol for allowing a consumer to hear it
Most of the time these calls are stored and used later for evaluation of the employee. They're not easily accessible as far as finding a specific call and the system usually isn't set up to allow someone to hear it on demand over the phone. Although I'm sure in this case they had it right there, but because it was you they refused to let you hear it.:rolleyes:

I don't know one way or the other, but maybe the reason you can get a refund on a whole year prepaid is that they're refunding you for the unused portion when you call to cancel. You're asking for a refund for months that, in theory, you've already used.

This is blatant stealing from me.
Uh, no, it isn't. This is a mistake that results in you losing money. There's a major difference there that some people don't seem to get. If you go to a grocery store and the clerk gives you a dollar less change than they should have and you don't notice it until later, have they stolen that dollar?

In addition to all of these things, I have to question how important this really was if you don't bother to check your credit card statement to make sure you're not getting charged. Didn't your "good lady" question the charges if she's looking at the statements, or did you not bother to tell her about this?

That is the real issue here, MS did not cancel the subscription. Some people are so eager to jump to conclusions and assume it must be consumer error, it's like they have a hard time accepting that companies can and do make numerous mistakes regarding peoples account info. Either they want to let everyone know how well they manage their finances and this type of problem would never happen to them or they don't want to accept that the company that has their info. can make these types of mistakes.

Although on the other hand bbexperience does make some good points also.

No offense mate, I was just responding to your point in the spirit of discussion that keeping an eye on his statement was the issue whereas I feel the issue was the fact that MS did not carry out the cancellation as requested.

No offense taken. But all I am saying responsibility needs to be spread around with both himself and the wife. He stated his wife checks all the CC statements that comes in. If that was the case and this went on for 6 months after the call, then that means you have a communication break down.

as for following up and checking his CC bill every month to make sure that MS won't rip him off, that's ridiculous

So your saying his wife was acting ridiculous since her eyes were on the bills and not his?

I am not saying it is all his fault, just that if he saw it the first month after calling it would be 5 months less of charges and no thread about this at AVS. The situation is no different then a company like Cingular when downloading a music tone only to find out I was charged for a service for 20 dollars at some random site that popped up and I said no. Saw my bill the next month and the charge and Cingular refunded the charges. Check my bill the following month and it was gone. I am a single parent, he is married with two eyes in the house but the responsibility falls on one person in the relationship. Why didn't see notice it is the question?

That is the real issue here, MS did not cancel the subscription. Some people are so eager to jump to conclusions and assume it must be consumer error, it's like they have a hard time accepting that companies can and do make numerous mistakes regarding peoples account info. Either they want to let everyone know how well they manage their finances and this type of problem would never happen to them or they don't want to accept that the company that has their info. can make these types of mistakes.

Of course companies make mistakes. Everyone knows that. And the fact that everyone knows that should be enough to tell you to check your card the month after you request a cancellation!

Yes, I know. Now that we have pinpointed the OP's mistake what about MS? They still did not follow procedure.

Yes, I know. Now that we have pinpointed the OP's mistake what about MS? They still did not follow procedure.

What about them? Don't use the service any more. Fill out a customer complaint with the company or countries BBC. Not much you can really do other than that. Sure you can sue but how far does that go with fees.

Well, at least it's recognized that there is a mistake on their part and it's not just the OP. And you're right, the correct action to take is 1st do not use their services, 2nd see what steps you can take to get your money back, and 3rd SHARE your experience so that other consumers are aware of possible problems. My God, isn't that what discussion forums are for?

A lot of apologist in this thread, I don't think one of the largest and wealthiest companies needs people to spin for them for free.

I actually had a similar problem with the original Xbox Live. I signed up for a year. I then moved (new e-mail) and sold my Xbox. Later I found out they renewed me automatically (how is this legal?) for another year without asking me. The e-mail that warned me went to a dead adresss. Back then I had no idea they would even attempt to charge me CC for another year without permission. Pretty sneaky and unetheical if you ask me.

If I want to install a program in Vista MS will ask you three times if you are sure, but to renew Live for a year at $50 they will do it with zero question. :)

"A lot of apologist in this thread, I don't think one of the largest and wealthiest companies needs people to spin for them for free."

I agree, I really have a hard time understanding that. I know it's partly because there is an assumed level of intelligence when someone sides with a company and says the consumer just doesn't understand the correct processes.

Well, this isn't in the States, but for the rest of you, you have 30 days from the date of the statement to make a claim to your cc company of an improper charge.

Pardon me for pointing out the obvious, but perhaps those of you complaining should read the terms of the sodding contract you're agreeing to.

6.5 Subscription Renewal. If you sign up for a Service or Other Item that is a monthly subscription, then unless the terms of that subscription state otherwise, your subscription will automatically and continuously renew from month to month and if it is a subscription that requires payment of a fee, your Payment Method will be charged unless you cancel your subscription prior to the end of that month.

6.7 Billing Statements. Charges on your Billing Account will be summarized for you in e-mail receipt(s) sent to the e-mail address you provided at initial Service sign-up. You agree that such e-mail receipts are the only statement of your Billing Account that Microsoft needs to provide to you. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO PRINT OR SAVE A COPY OF EACH EMAIL RECEIPT AND TO RETAIN COPIES FOR YOUR RECORDS. If you request a paper copy, we may charge you a retrieval fee. To request a paper copy of an e-mail receipt, call Xbox Customer Support. We will only provide paper copies for the past 120 days. Your inability to view or receive e-mail (e.g. due to your e-mail filter settings) does not extend, or relieve you of, your obligation to pay any amounts owing to Microsoft.

A lot of apologist in this thread, I don't think one of the largest and wealthiest companies needs people to spin for them for free.

I actually had a similar problem with the original Xbox Live. I signed up for a year. I then moved (new e-mail) and sold my Xbox. Later I found out they renewed me automatically (how is this legal?) for another year without asking me. The e-mail that warned me went to a dead adresss. Back then I had no idea they would even attempt to charge me CC for another year without permission. Pretty sneaky and unetheical if you ask me.

If I want to install a program in Vista MS will ask you three times if you are sure, but to renew Live for a year at $50 they will do it with zero question. :)

And you have a problem reading the terms and conditions too.

I see M4H already posted the obvious.

Anyone who has dealt with MS support knows they have a lot of work to do to in order to improve their customer support processes. However, that having been said, I don't think they deliberately set out to screw customers over - they obviously just have some people who don't care about doing a good job working for them. And I'm sure those folks are the exception, rather than the rule. So in that respect, they're no different than any other company.

To the OP: File a complaint with the BBB in Washington.

Unfortunately I cant respond to every negative comment in this thread, so I'll have to just generalise my reasons for not jumping on this "mistake' sooner rather than later.

The reason my wife didnt think this charge was abnormal when showing up on the CC statements was simply beacuse of the fact that I buy MS points via the same card, so it was not uncommon to see a MS charge on there. As it is "only" AU$10.95 per month, not something that would normally raise a concern. I mentioned that the initial 5 or 6 months prior to my first contact with Microsoft was ultimately my fault for failing to read their T&C correctly, despite not being happy that they automatically renew the subscription. The first 4 months of this year however is a big FUBAR on Microsofts part.
Without steering this thread off topic, as I mentioned in my first reply, I was hit with a very personal tragedy that made everyday simple things such as scrutinising every single bill that came in, very difficult to do. My mind was (and to some degree still is) on other things more important. Some posters seem to think because the amount of money is not large, that Im making a big deal out of the situation. When youve had to fly half way round the world and bury a parent and pay all of the expenses yourself that come with that out of your own pocket, then yes, $40 or so IS A LOT OF MONEY. But the point of this thread is not really about the money, its about the fact that protocol was followed and I was still charged continually until I discovered it again today.
Microsoft never gave me a reference number when I phoned in December. As I'd never rung them prior, I was not aware that reference numbers were given out.
I know my experience is certainly more of an exception rather than the rule, but I did feel it was important to raise this concern of how cmpanies like this refuse to admit their mistakes and take the correct, appropriate action to keep their customers happy.

To all those who sympathise (completely or partly) with my situation, I thank you. To all those who dont - its good to see forum members stick together and be understanding..NOT. I do not see any forum rules stating I cannot create a thread of this type. Some of you consider this thread a waste of time - thats fine, you are entitled to your opinion, however, it seems contradictory that you continue to keep this thread active and allow it to grow.

I can't believe alot of you are saying its his fault, just accepting that microsoft routinly screws people over and its up to you to check your credit card statement every month.

My .02

I don't think Microsoft is intentionally screwing anyone. I DO however think they have a lack of internal quality checks/mgmt and inadequte training for the folks that take customer calls such as Marks.

I think your complaint is legit, the point is as you say "But the point of this thread is not really about the money, its about the fact that protocol was followed and I was still charged continually until I discovered it again today." It's really not that hard to understand.

Sorry for you loss.

I do agree, the situation with Microsoft having a call titled "canceled account" on file and not refunding is a slap in the face to the consumer.

/ The real moral of this story is man up "Don't let your woman control the credit card".

I do agree, the situation with Microsoft having a call titled "canceled account" on file and not refunding is a slap in the face to the consumer.

/ The real moral of this story is man up "Don't let your woman control the credit card".

Word!

You're kidding right? I bought a 1 month subscription for Gold via Marketplace (AU$10.95). Now here we are a year later and that 1 month has actually cost me AU$120.45 - half of that by way of sneaky Terms and Conditions and the other half, well, because Microsoft feel they can. You are correct about one thing, money isnt a problem, but does that make it alright?

And anybody who has an issue with this thread and would rather discuss games, go play in the 300+ other threads that do discuss 'em. Leave this thread for those of us interested in the ethics of big corporations and theyre attitude toward people who their product is aimed at.

the first half you can just forget about. you keep calling it "sneaky" and "fine print" but if those two things catch you off guard you must be living in a cave. All companies do is write mile after mile after mile of fine print (have you ever watch a commercial in your life) and businesses are in business to make MONEY. M-O-N-E-Y.

So half of that is gone and what are we left with? about $60. Do you really care to stress out about that? I got charged $13 for a big mac at McDonald's last week b/c the cashier didn't know how to give correct change and i was pissed. But being in the drive through i just went away and back to work and by 2pm i had forgotten about it.

Now i will never see that $13 again and i'm sure if i put it in my bank account in 50 years i would have accumulated 47 cents of interest but come on. If you have an xbox 360 that is $300-$400 + controller $40 + games at $20-$60 each + a tv $200-$2000 depending on if it's high def, etc, etc. And if you are using your internet to complain about this, you can afford $20-$50 EVERY month for that.

So is $60 that big a deal? Sure i would have complained. But once i realized from the first call that the CS and even managers were dolts, i would have given it a rest. Isn't your peace of mind and emotional stability much more valuable than $60?

I say take a deep breath and try to see the big picture in life. You of all people, having randomly spoken of heartbreaking circumstances with your mother, should know that there are many more important things in life than 3 twenty dollar bills.

Pardon me for pointing out the obvious, but perhaps those of you complaining should read the terms of the sodding contract you're agreeing to.

It certainly is his fault for not reading the contract. I'll post the contract in its entirety so that no one here will have the experience of the OP. I hope you have a half an hour to spare.

The OP isn't the only one who feels this way either: http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34853/118/

Xbox LIVE Terms of Use and Privacy Statement

Last updated: November 2007

1. THIS IS A CONTRACT BETWEEN YOU AND MICROSOFT
This is a contract between you and Microsoft Corporation (located at One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA 98052-6399 United States) or, based on where you live, a Microsoft Corporation affiliate. We will refer to ourselves in this contract as with "Microsoft", "we" or "our." You are an individual person. You must be at least 18 years old and have attained the age of majority in the province, state or country in which you live. The facts you give us must be complete and correct. A printable version of the most current form of this contract is posted on the Xbox.com web site (http://www.xbox.com/live).

This contract covers your use of this service via an original Xbox console, an Xbox 360 console or a personal computer as applicable, and includes any other related services for which you choose to sign up (for example, specific game subscriptions), content and other media (for example, items downloaded from Xbox LIVE Marketplace), software, machines, support, papers, updates or upgrades. We refer to these all as the "Service."

The Service is offered to you conditioned on your acceptance without modification of these terms, conditions, and notices contained herein. By selecting "ACCEPT" below, you are attaching your electronic signature to and agreeing to this contract. You understand that if you do not agree to this contract, you should select "DECLINE", discontinue your registration and refrain from using Xbox LIVE.

Please note that this contract limits our liability and we do not provide warranties for the Service. The contract also limits your remedies. These terms are in Sections 15 and 16 and we urge you to read the terms carefully.

2. ADDITIONAL TERMS
Certain games, content offerings, features, or events available via this Service may contain additional terms, codes of conduct or guidelines that govern use of those games or features or participation in those events (for example, sweepstakes and tournaments). If any terms in this contract conflict with any terms and contained within any particular game, content offering, feature or event, then the terms in this contract shall control. Any dealings with third parties or participation in promotions, sweepstakes and tournaments, and any other terms, conditions, warranties or representations associated with such dealings are solely between you and the third party. We do not endorse and will not be responsible or liable for any aspect of any such dealings.
Some Service features and related services may also be available to you on http://www.xbox.com/live or Xbox LIVE game-related web sites, and are also subject to the terms and conditions of the applicable web site.

3. HOW AND WHEN YOU MAY USE THE SERVICE
We provide the Service for your personal use. You may not use the Service for commercial purposes or in a way that is against the law. You also may not use it in a way that harms us or our affiliates, resellers, distributors, service providers, partners and/or suppliers (collectively, the "Microsoft Parties"), or any customer of a Microsoft Party. Some examples of harmful activity that we do not permit include: (i) trying to gain access to any account, computers, hardware or networks related to this Service without authorization; (ii) disrupting accounts, computers, hardware or networks related to the Service; (iii) obtaining or trying to obtain any data through any means from the Service, except if we intend to provide or make it available to you; (iv) using the Service or related hardware to obtain any data to design, develop or update unauthorized software that you use or provide to others to access or use in connection with the Service; (v) charging others to use the Service either directly or indirectly; (vi) using or distributing unauthorized cheats, macros or scripts; (vii) exploiting any bug, or making unauthorized modifications to any software or data, in the Service or particular game to gain unfair advantage in a game.

We may tell you about other specific harmful uses in a code of conduct or other notice available through the Service. We have, however, no duty to do so. You will obey any codes of conduct or other notices we provide.
You may start using the Service right after you finish the sign-up process. No withdrawal right or "cooling-off" period applies to the Service, except if the law requires a "cooling-off" period even when your use of a service starts right away.

4. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR SERVICE ACCOUNT
You are responsible for all activity under your Service account. You are responsible for keeping confidential any password for your Service account. We may allow you to have additional persons use your Service account and/or have additional member accounts associated to your Service account. We refer to these as "associated accounts." We may limit who may use your Service account or any associated accounts. You must tell us right away about anyone using your account without your consent, or any security breach that relates to the Service.

5. ASSOCIATED ACCOUNT USERS
If you are the user of an associated account, then the holder of the Service account has full control over your associated account. This control includes the right to end the Service, close or alter your associated account at any time, and to request and receive usage information related to your associated account. Any data related to your associated account is collected and delivered to the holder of the Service account and Microsoft. As an associated account user, this contract applies to you except for the following sections: Section 4 (You Are Responsible for Your Service Account), Section 6 (Charges and Billing); Section 19 (Your Cancellation of Service), and Section 25 (Our Notices to You; Consent Regarding Electronic Information).
You represent that you are the parent or legal guardian of each minor that you allow to use your Service account or associated account. You acknowledge that you are aware that some features of the Service and some content available through the service may contain or expose users to material that is unsuitable for minors, and you agree to supervise usage by minors whom you permit to use the Service. The Service accessed through an original Xbox console is not intended for children under 13. Microsoft offers Family Settings on Xbox 360 that help you limit access to material that may be unsuitable for minors. By applying Family Settings to an associated account at sign-up, you may, among other things, prevent any user of an associated account from making additional purchases, and prevent any user from having access to voice and video chat, which will eliminate the ability of such user to communicate with other users. You may view or revise your Family Settings in the Xbox Dashboard in the System area. If you are interested in learning more about Family Settings, information is available athttp://www.xbox.com/support/familysettings/default.htm. You remain responsible for any material to which a user of your subscription either gains or is denied access as a result of your use or non-use of the Family Settings.

6. CHARGES AND BILLING
6.1 Not Applicable to Some Situations. If you pay us for the Service (either currently or in the future) and/or for additional items and services (e.g., games, downloads, Service upgrades, or other premium features) available for purchase via the Service (collectively for purposes of this Section 6, "Other Items"), and you pay with a designated payment instrument such as a credit card ("Payment Method"), then the terms of this Section 6 apply to you. This Section will also apply to you if your Service is renewed with your Payment Method following the expiration of any current Service term. In some cases, designation of a Payment Method is required when you sign up for the Service or Other Items. Certain Other Items may be provided for a fee paid to a company other than Microsoft, in which case the terms applicable to charges and billing are as set forth by the other company.

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You may tell us to stop using your Payment Method by calling Xbox Customer Support. If you do so, however, we may cancel your Service and/or any Other Items to which you are subscribed. Your notice to us will not affect charges we submit to your Billing Account before we could reasonably act on your request. You must keep all information in your Billing Account accurate and current. You may change your Payment Method at any time. You can access and make changes to your Billing Account in the Account Management section of the Xbox Dashboard, or if you access your Service via an Xbox 360 console, at https://billing.microsoft.com.

6.3 Trial Period Offers. You may have received a limited time of free Service or some other trial period offer for Other Items. If you are participating in any such trial, then unless the terms of the particular subscription state otherwise, you must cancel the applicable Service or Other Item by the end of the trial period to avoid incurring applicable charges to your Payment Method. If you do not cancel the applicable Service or Other Item by the end of the trial period, then you hereby authorize Microsoft to charge your Payment Method. If you do not have a Billing Account, then the applicable subscription will expire at the end of your trial period. However, if you are participating in any Xbox LIVE Gold Membership trial period on an Xbox 360 console, your subscription will continue but will downgrade to a free Xbox LIVE Silver Membership at the end of your Gold membership trial period, regardless of whether you have a Billing Account. In this case, to maintain your Gold membership level, you must either set your Gold membership to automatically renew with a charge to your Payment Method, or you must enter a new Xbox LIVE prepaid card.

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6.6 Refund Policies. Except as stated otherwise, or as otherwise provided by applicable law, all charges are non-refundable. If you signed up for an annual Service and paid the annual fee with your Payment Method, we may provide you a full refund of the annual fee if you cancel within the first 60 days of your Service. Additional information about refunds is available at http://www.xbox.com/live/accounts/default.htm.

6.7 Billing Statements. Charges on your Billing Account will be summarized for you in e-mail receipt(s) sent to the e-mail address you provided at initial Service sign-up. You agree that such e-mail receipts are the only statement of your Billing Account that Microsoft needs to provide to you. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO PRINT OR SAVE A COPY OF EACH EMAIL RECEIPT AND TO RETAIN COPIES FOR YOUR RECORDS. If you request a paper copy, we may charge you a retrieval fee. To request a paper copy of an e-mail receipt, call Xbox Customer Support. We will only provide paper copies for the past 120 days. Your inability to view or receive e-mail (e.g. due to your e-mail filter settings) does not extend, or relieve you of, your obligation to pay any amounts owing to Microsoft.
If you sign up to the Service via an Xbox 360 console or personal computer, or modify your Service from an original Xbox console to an Xbox 360 console, then we will also provide you with an online billing statement. Go to https://billing.microsoft.com to view, print or request a paper copy of this statement. If you request a paper copy, we may charge you a retrieval fee. We will only provide paper copies for the past 120 days.

6.8 Errors. If we make an error on your bill, we will correct it promptly after you tell us and we investigate the charge. You must tell us within 120 days after an error first appears on your bill. You release us from all liability and claims of loss resulting from any error that you do not report to us within 120 days after the error first appears on your online statement. If you do not tell us within this time, we will not be required to correct the error. We can correct billing errors at any time.

6.9 Late Payments. We may assess a late charge if you do not pay on time. You must pay these late charges when we bill you for them. The late charge will be the lesser of 1% of the unpaid amount each month or the maximum rate that is permitted by law. We may use a third party to collect past due amounts. These costs include reasonable attorneys' fees and other legal fees and costs. We may suspend of cancel your Service if you fail to pay any amounts due on time.

6.10 Internet Access Service. You are responsible for paying the fees charged by your internet access provider. These fees are in addition to the fees you pay us for the Service.

7. MICROSOFT POINTS
If you are using the Service on an Xbox 360 console or personal computer, you can participate in the Microsoft Points service. Microsoft Points is a service under which you can acquire Points and redeem those Points for certain online services and digital goods. You can see how many Points you have by checking your Points balance at https://billing.microsoft.com. You can obtain selected services or digital goods that we elect to offer in exchange for Points. You can do this by redeeming your Points as indicated in the particular messaging you see for those offers.

You can acquire Points in a variety of ways. For example, you can purchase Points, or certain services may give you Points for using the service or specific features of the service (also known as "reward Points"). You can earn reward Points only for actions you actually complete. You are responsible for any tax consequences that may result from your participation in the Points service.

When you obtain Points, you have obtained a limited license to a digital good. Points have no monetary value. You may not obtain any cash or money in exchange for Points, regardless of how you acquired those Points. Points are not your personal property. Your only recourse for using Points is to obtain the specific online services or digital goods that we offer for Points redemption. We may further restrict your Points redemption offers based on your country of residence. We encourage you to redeem your Points. The existence of a particular offer available for Points redemption is not a commitment by us to maintain or continue to make such offers in the future. The scope, variety and type of online services and digital goods that you may obtain by redeeming Points can change at any time. We have no obligation to continue making offers available for Points redemption.

Reward Points may expire at any time, as set forth in the messaging related to that reward Points promotion. We may cancel, suspend or otherwise limit your access to your Points balance if we suspect fraudulent, abusive or unlawful activity on your Points balance. Once we delete Points from a balance, we will not reinstate them, except at our discretion. When we cancel, suspend or otherwise limit access to your Points balance, your right to use your Points balance immediately ceases. We will use reasonable efforts to investigate Points balances that are subject to access limitations and to reach a final decision on the limitations promptly. In addition, we may limit your use of the Points service, including applying limits to: the number of Points you may have credited to your Points balance at one time, the number of Points you may redeem within a given time period (for example, one day), and the number of reward Points you may obtain per promotion.
If we post Points to your balance for an activity that is subsequently voided, canceled or involves a returned item, then we will remove those Points from your balance. You must ensure that we properly post your Points to your Points balance. If you believe that you have validly acquired Points that we have not posted to your Points balance, then you must contact us within 12 months after the date you claimed to have acquired those Points and we may require reasonable documentation to support your claim.

8. USE OF COMMUNICATION FACILITIES
Your use of the Service is subject to the Code of Conduct. You also agree not to do any of the following while being connected to the Service:
-Defame, abuse, harass, stalk, threaten, or otherwise violate the legal rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others.
-Publish, distribute, or disseminate any inappropriate, profane, defamatory, infringing, obscene, indecent, or unlawful topic, name, material, file or information.
-Publish, distribute or disseminate any topic, name, material, file or information that incites, advocates, promotes, depicts, constitutes or expresses child pornography, profanity, hatred, bigotry, racism, illegal drug use, gratuitous or graphic violence or criminal or fraudulent activity.
-Create a Gamertag or use text other profile fields that may offend other members. This includes comments that look, sound like, stand for, hint at, abbreviate, or insinuate any of the following: profane words/phrases, sexually explicit language, sexual innuendo, hate speech (including but not limited to racial, ethnic, or religious slurs), illegal drugs/controlled substances, or illegal activities.
-Use the Service or any material or information which is made available through the Service in any manner that infringes any copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret, or other proprietary right of any party.
-Upload files that contain viruses, Trojan horses, worms, time bombs, cancelbots, corrupted files, or any other similar software or programs that may damage the operation of another's original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or other property of another.
-Download or use any material sent or provided by another user of the Service that you know, or reasonably should know, cannot be legally distributed in such manner.
-Advertise or offer to sell or buy any goods or services for any non-personal purpose.
-Use the Service to send, either directly or indirectly, any unsolicited bulk messages or unsolicited commercial communications.
-Use the Service to participate in pyramid schemes or chain letters.
-Harvest or otherwise collect information about others, including e-mail addresses, without their consent.
-Create a false identity for the purpose of misleading others.
-Falsify or delete any author attributions, legal or other proper notices or proprietary designations or labels of the origin or source of software or other material contained in a file that is transferred.
-Make false complaints or provide false feedback about other users of the Service.
-Use, download, or otherwise copy, or provide to a third party (whether or not for a fee) any (i) directory of users of the Service, (ii) information about users of the Service, or (iii) Service usage information.
-Interfere with or disrupt networks connected to the Service or violate the regulations, policies, or procedures of such networks.
-View, intercept, or attempt to intercept private communications not intended for you.
-Violate any relevant law or posted guidelines or codes relating to the use of the Service.
-Provide or offer to provide services for the provision of gambling or wagering.

9. MATERIALS YOU POST OR PROVIDE; COMMUNICATIONS MONITORING
You may be able to submit, post, transmit and share, with us or other users, images, or other materials for use in connection with the Service (each, a "submission"). We do not claim ownership of these submissions. However, by posting or otherwise providing your submission, you are granting to the public permission to use, copy, distribute, display, perform and modify your submission, each for personal and noncommercial use, and each in connection with the Service, and to publish your name, gamertag, or other information you supply in connection with the submission. You also give the public permission to grant this permission to other persons. If the submission is a photograph or other digital image, you also expressly waive any and all rights of privacy and publicity with respect to the image. This section only applies for legally permissible and authorized content, and to the extent that use and publishing of legal content does not breach the law. We will not pay you for your submission. We may refuse to transfer, or we may remove your submission at any time. For each submission, you must have all rights necessary for you to grant the permissions in this section.
You should not expect any level of privacy concerning your use of the live communication features of the Service. These communications may be monitored; however, we cannot monitor the entire Service and make no attempt to do so. You understand that these communications can be recorded and used by others. Some games may utilize game managers and hosts. Game managers and hosts are not authorized Microsoft spokespersons, and their views do not necessarily reflect those of Microsoft.
We do not routinely monitor your use of the messaging features of the Service. However, to the maximum extent permitted by law, we may monitor your messages and may disclose information about you, including contents of messages, if we deem it necessary to: (1) conform to legal requirements or respond to legal process, (2) ensure your compliance with this contract, or (3) protect the rights, property, or interests of Microsoft, its employees, its customers or the public.

10. SOFTWARE; INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
We and our suppliers grant you a personal, non-exclusive, revocable license to use the software and associated content (e.g., text, images, video, graphics, music, sound) made available to you on this Service only for and during the authorized use of this Service and/or the game or other product to which the software and content relate. You may not copy, download, modify or create derivative works, publish, transmit, sell or attempt to sell or transfer, or otherwise use or exploit any software or associated content unless we or our suppliers have expressly allowed you to do so. Some software and associated content you may choose to download may be accompanied by an end user license agreement ("EULA") or may indicate specific authorized uses or restrictions (such as the Special Video Content described in Section 11 below), in which case the EULA or those other rights and restrictions will apply.
Copyright and other intellectual property laws and treaties protect the software and content associated with this Service. We or our suppliers own the title, copyright, and other intellectual property rights in the software and content. Such software and content is licensed and not sold, and we and our suppliers reserve all other rights to the software and content not granted herein. You do not have ownership rights to any software or other content made available or accessible on the Service, regardless of how such software and content is used or downloaded.
Except as otherwise set forth herein, the licenses granted you under this section will end on the date your Service ends. We may disable such software after the date the Service terminates. We may automatically check your version of such software and may automatically download upgrades to such software to your computer in order to update, enhance and further develop the Service.
The software is subject to United States export laws and regulations. You must comply with all domestic and international export laws and regulations that apply to the software. These laws include restrictions on destinations, end users and end use. For additional information, see www.microsoft.com/exporting.

11. Special Video Content
11.1 Special Video Content - General Terms.
We may offer certain video content ("Special Video Content") on the Service on (i) a limited time-based video-on-demand basis ("VOD Content") or (ii) an unlimited time, retained license basis ("Retained Rights Content") for your use only via Xbox 360 consoles. The price points and formats for all Special Video Content shall be set forth on the applicable areas of the Service from which the Special Video Content will be made available (the "Special Video Content Pages"). Each license of Special Video Content obtained through the Service is subject to the additional terms and conditions of this Section 11. To the extent that the terms contained in the other Sections of this contract conflict with the terms of this Section 11, the terms of this Section 11 control with respect to any license you obtain for the Special Video Content. Special Video Content may not be available in all territories in which the Service is available. We reserve the right not to offer VOD Content or Retained Rights Content, or both, in any such territory. Except as expressly stated in this Section11, you may not reproduce, distribute, perform, display, create derivative works from or otherwise use the Special Video Content. You may not modify, reverse engineer, reverse compile, decompile or otherwise attempt to derive the source code of any element of the Special Video Content. You may not attempt to circumvent any copyright protection technology or alter or remove any copyright management information contained in any Special Video Content. All rights to the Special Video Content not expressly granted in this Section 11 are specifically reserved to Microsoft and/or its licensors. Any license you obtain for Special Video Content shall be subject to termination upon the cancellation of the Service in the manner provided in Section 18 below.

11.2 VOD Content
Upon payment of the required fees, we shall grant you a personal, non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license, subject to the terms of this contract, to view and privately display in your residence, for non-commercial purposes, solely on an Xbox 360 console, any VOD Content you obtain via the Service. The initial license to each item of VOD Content is limited in its term and duration to fourteen (14) days from its original date and time of download or twenty-four (24) hours from the start of its initial display and viewing, whichever occurs first (the "VOD Viewing Time"), unless otherwise specified as being limited to a shorter term at the time of purchase. Once a license to an item of VOD Content is obtained, a copy of such VOD Content will be saved to your Xbox 360 console for the VOD Viewing Time. Upon the expiration of the VOD Viewing Time, you will no longer be able to view the VOD Content without obtaining an additional license (provided an additional license is offered on the Service at such time). You may not copy or move the VOD Content from its originally stored location.

11.3 Retained Rights Content
Upon payment of the required fees, we shall grant you, a personal, non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license, subject to the terms of this contract, to view and privately display in your residence, for non-commercial purposes, solely on an Xbox 360 console, any Retained Rights Content you obtain via the Service only for and during your authorized use of the Service. Once a license to an item of Retained Rights Content is obtained, a copy of such Retained Rights Content will be saved to your Xbox 360 console. You shall not be permitted to copy or move the Retained Rights Content from its originally stored location. Although you are not permitted to copy or move the Retained Rights Content from its originally stored location, you will be permitted to download any previously obtained Retained Rights Content from the Service to another Xbox 360 console (a "Roaming Xbox 360 console"), for no additional cost, by logging into the Service, confirming your valid license for the Retained Rights Content, and following any further instructions we may provide for downloading to a Roaming Xbox 360 console. You shall only be permitted to download and playback such Retained Rights Content for as long as you are logged into the Service via such Roaming Xbox 360 console. You may not copy or move the Retained Rights Content from any Roaming Xbox 360 Console to which it has been downloaded.

12. MICROSOFT AUTHENTICATION NETWORK
We may provide you with credentials on our authentication network to use with the Service. Our authentication network is a multi-purpose authentication Web service that makes it easy for you to sign in to Web sites. You may not use any software or hardware that reduces the number of users directly accessing or using the authentication network (sometimes called "multiplexing" or "pooling" software or hardware). You are solely responsible for any dealings with third parties (including advertisers) who use our authentication network, including the delivery of and payment for goods and services. This contract applies to you whenever you access or use the credentials you obtained with the Service. When you use our authentication network to gain access to any site or service, the terms and conditions for that site or service may also apply to you. Please refer to the terms of use for each site or service that you visit. We may cancel or suspend your access to our authentication network for inactivity, which we define as failing to sign in to our authentication network for an extended period, as determined by us. When we cancel your credentials, your right to use our authentication network immediately ceases, and we may also cancel your Service.

13. PERFORMANCE AND USAGE INFORMATION
13.1 Performance Data. We may automatically upload performance data for evaluating the Service, the software associated with the Service, and/or the console you use to connect to the Service. Such data may include console hardware and operating performance data, and network performance and service quality data. Any software or hardware errors, which may occur while you are connected to Xbox LIVE or offline, may be uploaded and reported. All such data may be stored with the console's unique identifier, and may also be associated with other personally identifiable information. This data will only be used to improve the Xbox and the Xbox LIVE customer experience.

13.2 Usage Data. Additionally, in order to evaluate and enable the features and functions of the Xbox LIVE service, such as leaderboards, achievements, tournaments and gamer profile sharing, you grant Microsoft Parties permission to use, track, store, copy, distribute, broadcast, transmit, publicly display and perform, and reproduce your game scores, your game play sessions, presence on the Service, rankings, statistics, gamer profile, your submissions, and other usage information with or without attribution to your gamertag, and without notice or compensation to you of any kind.

14. SERVICE OPERATION AND EQUIPMENT
The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox, an Xbox 360 console, a personal computer or by logging into your account via Xbox.com. You agree that you are using authorized software and hardware to access the Service, and that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., authorized repairs, upgrades and downloads). Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either the hardware or software associated with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or the Service, is strictly prohibited and may result in cancellation of your account and/or your ability to access the Service, and the pursuit of other legal remedies by Microsoft. Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft's systems or network security or this contract or any additional terms as described in Section 2 above, and such users may also incur criminal and/or civil liability.

Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service. Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; (b) retrieve information from the original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, personal computer and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Service as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Service, and to enforce this Agreement; and (c) upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service or any game from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox, Xbox 360 console or personal computer, and which software may prevent you from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized peripheral devices.

15. HOW WE MAY CHANGE THIS CONTRACT
If we change this contract, then we will tell you at least 30 days before the change is in force. We will tell you of the change by e-mail or online posting. We may also use other ways that we believe will reach you. If you do not agree to such changes, then you must cancel and stop using the Service before the changes are in force. If you do not stop using the Service, then your use of the Service will continue under the changed contract.

16. WE MAKE NO WARRANTY
We provide the Service "as-is," "with all faults" and "as available." The Microsoft Parties give no express warranties, guarantees or conditions. You may have additional consumer rights under your local laws that this contract cannot change. To the extent permitted by law, we exclude the implied warranties of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose, workmanlike effort and non-infringement.

17. LIABILITY LIMITATION; YOUR EXCLUSIVE REMEDY
You can recover from the Microsoft Parties only direct damages up to an amount equal to your Service fee for one month. You cannot recover any other damages, including consequential, lost profits, special, indirect or incidental damages.
This limitation applies to:
-any matter related to the Service,
-any matter related to content (including code) on third party Internet sites, third party programs or third party conduct,
-any matter related to viruses or other disabling features that affect your access to or use of the Service,
-any matter related to incompatibility between the Service and other services, software and hardware,
-any matter related to delays or failures you may have in initiating, conducting or completing any transmissions or transactions in connection with the Service in an accurate or timely manner, and
-claims for breach of contract, breach of warranty, guarantee or condition, strict liability, negligence, or other tort to the extent permitted by applicable law.
It also applies even if:
-this remedy does not fully compensate you for any losses, or fails of its essential purpose; or
-Microsoft knew or should have known about the possibility of damages.
Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you. They also may not apply to you because your province or country may not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental, consequential or other damages.

18. CHANGES TO THE SERVICE; OUR CANCELLATION OF THE SERVICE
We may change the Service or delete or discontinue features, games or other content at any time and for any reason. We may cancel or suspend your Service at any time. Our cancellation or suspension may be without cause and/or without notice. Upon Service cancellation, your right to use the Service stops right away. Once the Service is cancelled or suspended, any data you have stored on the Service may not be retrieved later. Our cancellation of the Service will not alter your obligation to pay all charges made to your Billing Account. If we cancel the Service in its entirety without cause, then we will refund to you, on a pro-rata basis the amount of your payment to Microsoft corresponding to the portion of your Service remaining right before such cancellation.

19. YOUR CANCELLATION OF SERVICE
You may cancel the Service at any time, with or without cause, upon notice to us by calling Xbox LIVE Customer Service. Contact information for your region can be found at http://www.xbox.com/support/contact. If you are participating in any trial period offer, you must cancel the Service by the end of the trial period to avoid incurring charges. Certain Service offers may require cancellation charges, and you will pay all such cancellation charges as specified in the materials describing such offer. Cancellation of the Service by you will not alter your obligation to pay all charges made to your Billing Account.

20. CHOICE OF LAW AND LOCATION FOR RESOLVING DISPUTES
If this contract is with Microsoft Corporation, then claims for breach of this contract will be subject to the laws of the State of Washington, without reference to conflict of laws principles. If this contract is with a Microsoft affiliate, claims for breach of this contract will be subject to the laws of the place of incorporation for such Microsoft affiliate, without reference to conflict of laws principles. All other claims, including claims regarding consumer protection laws, unfair competition laws, and in tort, will be subject to the laws of your state of residence in the United States, or, if you reside outside the United States, under the laws of the country to which we direct your Service.
If this contract is with Microsoft Corporation, you consent to the exclusive jurisdiction and venue of state or federal courts in King County, Washington, USA for all disputes relating to this contract or the Service. If this contract is with a Microsoft affiliate, you consent to the exclusive jurisdiction and venue of the courts located in the place of incorporation for such Microsoft affiliate for all disputes relating to this contract or the Service. You cannot revoke this consent.

21. INTERPRETING THE CONTRACT
All parts of this contract apply to the maximum extent permitted by law. A court may hold that we cannot enforce a part of this contract as written. If this happens, then we will replace that part with terms that most closely match the intent of the part that we cannot enforce. The rest of this contract will not change. Except as expressly stated herein, this is the entire contract between us regarding your use of the Service, and it supersedes any prior contract or statements regarding your use of the Service. If you have confidentiality obligations related to the Service, those obligations remain in force (for example, you may have been a beta tester). The section titles in the contract do not limit the other terms of this contract.

22. ASSIGNMENT
We may assign this contract, in whole or in part, at any time with or without notice to you. You may not assign this contract, or any part of it, to any other party. Any attempt by you to do so is void. Instead, you may cancel your Service. The other party may then establish a Service account and enter into a contract with us.

23. CLAIMS MUST BE FILED WITHIN ONE YEAR
Any claim related to this contract or the Service must be brought within one year. The one-year period begins on the date when the claim first could be filed. If it is not filed, then that claim is permanently barred. This applies to you and your successors. It also applies to us and our successors and assigns.

24. YOUR NOTICES TO US
You may notify us by postal mail. Send postal mail notices to Microsoft at Microsoft Corporation Attention: Xbox LIVE Customer Service, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA 98052-6399, USA.

25. OUR NOTICES TO YOU; CONSENT REGARDING ELECTRONIC INFORMATION
This contract is in electronic form. There may be other information regarding the Service that the law requires us to send to you. We may send you this information in electronic form. You have the right to withdraw this consent, but if you do, we may cancel your Service. We may provide required information to you (1) via e-mail at the e-mail address you specified when you signed up for your Service; (2) by access to a Microsoft web site that will be designated in an e-mail notice sent to you at the time the information is available; or (3) by access to a Microsoft web site that will be generally designated in advance for such purpose. Notices provided to you via e-mail will be deemed given and received on the transmission date of such e-mail. If you would like a copy of this information or this contract in paper form, you may request one from us. To do so, or to withdraw your consent, call Xbox Customer Support. You must make a request for a paper copy within 120 days after we first provided it to you. If you do not, we may not provide you a paper copy. We may charge a reasonable fee for providing such paper copies.
As long as you access and use the Service, you agree that you will have, or have access to, the necessary software and hardware to receive such notices. If you do not consent to receive any notices electronically, you must stop using the Service.

26. COPYRIGHT AND TRADEMARK NOTICES
All contents of Xbox LIVE are: Copyright © 2005 Microsoft Corporation and/or its suppliers, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, Washington 98052-6399 U.S.A. All rights reserved.
Microsoft, Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox LIVE, the Xbox logos and/or other Microsoft products and services referenced herein may also be either trademarks or registered trademarks of Microsoft. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.

27. NOTICES AND PROCEDURE FOR MAKING CLAIMS OF COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT
Pursuant to Title 17, United States Code, Section 512(c)(2), notifications of claimed copyright infringement should be sent to Service Provider's Designated Agent. ALL INQUIRIES NOT RELEVANT TO THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURE WILL RECEIVE NO RESPONSE. Please refer to the Notice and Procedure for Making Claims of Copyright Infringement atwww.microsoft.com/info/cpyrtInfrg.htm for further instructions.

28. LANGUAGE
It is the express wish of the parties that this Agreement and all related documents have been drawn up in English. C'est la volonté expresse des parties que la présente convention ainsi que les documents qui s'y rattachent soient rédigés en anglais.

Microsoft Online Privacy Statement

(last updated: January 2006)

view the privacy notice highlights
Microsoft is committed to protecting your privacy. Please read the Microsoft Online Privacy Statement below and also any supplemental information listed to the right for additional details about particular Microsoft sites and services that you may use.

This Microsoft Online Privacy Statement applies to data collected by Microsoft through the majority of its Web sites and services, as well as its offline product support services. It does not apply to those Microsoft sites, services and products that do not display or link to this statement or that have their own privacy statements.

Collection of Your Personal Information
In order to access some Microsoft services, you will be asked to sign in with an e-mail address and password, which we refer to as your credentials. In most cases, these credentials will be part of the Microsoft Passport Network, which means you can use the same credentials to sign in to many different Microsoft sites and services, as well as those of select Microsoft partners. By signing in on one Microsoft site or service, you may be automatically signed into other Microsoft sites and services. If you access our services via a mobile phone, you may also use your telephone number and a PIN as an alternative credential to your username and password. As part of creating your credentials, you may also be requested to provide questions and secret answers, which we use to help verify your identity and assist in resetting your password, as well as an alternate email address. Some services may require added security, and in these cases, you may be asked to create an additional security key. Finally, a unique ID number will be assigned to your credentials which will be used to identify your credentials and associated information.

At some Microsoft sites, we ask you to provide personal information, such as your e-mail address, name, home or work address or telephone number. We may also collect demographic information, such as your ZIP code, age, gender, preferences, interests and favorites. If you choose to make a purchase or sign up for a paid subscription service, we will ask for additional information, such as your credit card number and billing address, that is used to create a Microsoft billing account.

We may collect information about your visit, including the pages you view, the links you click and other actions taken in connection with Microsoft sites and services. We also collect certain standard information that your browser sends to every website you visit, such as your IP address, browser type and language, access times and referring Web site addresses.

When you receive newsletters or promotional e-mail from Microsoft, we may use web beacons (described below), customized links or similar technologies to determine whether the e-mail has been opened and which links you click in order to provide you more focused e-mail communications or other information.

In order to offer you a more consistent and personalized experience in your interactions with Microsoft, information collected through one Microsoft service may be combined with information obtained through other Microsoft services. We may also supplement the information we collect with information obtained from other companies. For example, we may use services from other companies that enable us to derive a general geographic area based on your IP address in order to customize certain services to your geographic area.

Use of Your Personal Information
Microsoft collects and uses your personal information to operate and improve its sites and deliver the services or carry out the transactions you have requested. These uses may include providing you with more effective customer service; making the sites or services easier to use by eliminating the need for you to repeatedly enter the same information; performing research and analysis aimed at improving our products, services and technologies; and displaying content and advertising that are customized to your interests and preferences.

We also use your personal information to communicate with you. We may send certain mandatory service communications such as welcome letters, billing reminders, information on technical service issues, and security announcements. Some Microsoft services, such as MSN Hotmail, may send periodic member letters that are considered part of the service. We may also occasionally send you product surveys or promotional mailings to inform you of other products or services available from Microsoft and its affiliates.

Personal information collected on Microsoft sites and services may be stored and processed in the United States or any other country in which Microsoft or its affiliates, subsidiaries or agents maintain facilities, and by using a Microsoft site or service, you consent to any such transfer of information outside of your country. Microsoft abides by the safe harbor framework as set forth by the U.S. Department of Commerce regarding the collection, use, and retention of data from the European Union.

Sharing of Your Personal Information
Except as described in this statement, we will not disclose your personal information outside of Microsoft and its controlled subsidiaries and affiliates without your consent. Some Microsoft sites allow you to choose to share your personal information with select Microsoft partners so that they can contact you about their products, services or offers. Other sites, such as MSN, do not share your contact information with third parties for marketing purposes, but instead may give you a choice as to whether you wish to receive communications from Microsoft on behalf of external business partners about a partner's particular offering (without transferring your personal information to the third party). See the Communication Preferences section below for more information.

Some Microsoft services may be co-branded and offered in conjunction with another company. If you register for or use such services, both Microsoft and the other company may receive information collected in conjunction with the co-branded services.

We occasionally hire other companies to provide limited services on our behalf, such as handling the processing and delivery of mailings, providing customer support, hosting websites, processing transactions, or performing statistical analysis of our services. Those companies will be permitted to obtain only the personal information they need to deliver the service. They are required to maintain the confidentiality of the information and are prohibited from using it for any other purpose.

We may access and/or disclose your personal information if we believe such action is necessary to: (a) comply with the law or legal process served on Microsoft; (b) protect and defend the rights or property of Microsoft (including the enforcement of our agreements); or (c) act in urgent circumstances to protect the personal safety of users of Microsoft services or members of the public.

Accessing Your Personal Information
You may have the ability to view or edit your personal information online. In order to help prevent your personal information from being viewed by others, you will be required to sign in with your credentials (e-mail address and password). The appropriate method(s) for accessing your personal information will depend on which sites or services you have used.

Microsoft.com - You can access and update your profile on microsoft.com by visiting the Microsoft.com Profile Center.
Microsoft Billing and Account Services - If you have a Microsoft Billing account, you can add to or update your information at the Microsoft Billing website by clicking on the "Personal Information" or "Billing Information" links.
Microsoft Connect - If you are a registered user of Microsoft Connect, you can access and edit your personal information by clicking Manage Your Connect Profile at the Microsoft Connect website.
MSN & Windows Live - If you have used MSN or Windows Live services, you can update your profile information, change your password, view the unique ID associated with your credentials, or close certain accounts by visiting MSN / Windows Live Account Services.
MSN Public Profile - If you have created a public profile on MSN, you may also edit or delete information in your public profile by going to the MSN Member Directory.
MSN Keyword Advertising - If you buy MSN Keyword advertising, you can review and edit your personal information at the MSN adCenter website.
Microsoft Partner Programs - If you are registered with Microsoft Partner Programs, you can review and edit your profile by clicking Manage Your Account on the Partner Program website.
Xbox - If you are an Xbox Live or Xbox.com user, you can access and edit your personal information on the My Xbox page on Xbox.com or on your console by selecting Privacy Settings under Edit Gamer Profile on Xbox 360, or selecting the Info Sharing option in Account Management for the Original Xbox Live dashboard.
Some Microsoft sites or services may collect personal information that is not accessible via the links above. However, in such cases, you may be able to access that information through alternative means of access described by the service. Or you can write us by using our Web form and we will contact you within 30 days regarding your request.

Communication Preferences
You can stop the delivery of future promotional e-mail from Microsoft sites and services by following the specific instructions in the e-mail you receive.

You may also have the option of proactively making choices about the communications you receive from particular Microsoft sites or services by visiting and signing into the following pages:

The Microsoft.com Profile Center allows you to choose whether you wish to receive marketing communications from Microsoft.com, to select whether Microsoft.com may share your contact information with selected third parties, and to subscribe or unsubscribe to newsletters about our products and services.
The MSN & Windows Live Communications Preferences page allows you to choose whether you wish to receive marketing material from MSN or Windows Live. You may subscribe and unsubscribe to MSN Newsletters by going to the MSN Newsletters website.
If you have an Xbox.com or Xbox Live account, you can set your contact preferences and choose whether to share your contact information with Xbox partners on the My Xbox page on Xbox.com or on your console by selecting Privacy Settings under Edit Gamer Profile on Xbox 360, or selecting the Info Sharing option in Account Management for the Original Xbox Live dashboard..
If you are registered with Microsoft Partner Programs, you can set your contact preferences or choose to share your contact information with other Microsoft partners by clicking Manage Your Account on the Partner Program website.
These communication choices do not apply to mandatory service communications that are considered part of certain Microsoft services, which you may receive periodically unless you cancel the service.

Security of Your Personal Information
Microsoft is committed to protecting the security of your personal information. We use a variety of security technologies and procedures to help protect your personal information from unauthorized access, use, or disclosure. For example, we store the personal information you provide on computer systems with limited access, which are located in controlled facilities. When we transmit highly confidential information (such as a credit card number or password) over the Internet, we protect it through the use of encryption, such as the Secure Socket Layer (SSL) protocol.

If a password is used to help protect your accounts and personal information, it is your responsibility to keep your password confidential. Do not share this information with anyone. If you are sharing a computer with anyone you should always choose to log out before leaving a site or service to protect access to your information from subsequent users.

Collection and Use of Children's Personal Information
Many Microsoft sites and services are intended for general audiences and do not knowingly collect any personal information from children. When a Microsoft site does collect age information, and users identify themselves as under 13, the site will either block such users from providing personal information, or will seek to obtain consent from parents for the collection, use and sharing of their children's personal information. We will not knowingly ask children under the age of 13 to provide more information than is reasonably necessary to provide our services.

Please note that if you grant consent for your child to use Microsoft services, this will include such general audience communication services as e-mail, instant messaging, and online groups, and your child will be able to communicate with, and disclose personal information to, other users of all ages. Parents can change or revoke the consent choices previously made, and review, edit or request the deletion of their children's personal information. For example, on MSN and Windows Live, parents can visit Account Services, and click on "Permission for kids." If we change this privacy statement in a way that expands the collection, use or disclosure of children's personal information to which a parent has previously consented, the parent will be notified and we will be required to obtain the parent's additional consent.

If you have an MSN Premium, MSN Plus, or MSN 9 Dial-Up account, you can choose to set up MSN Parental Controls for the other users of that account. Please read the supplemental information for MSN Premium for further information. We also offer an area that is specifically designed for children at http://kids.msn.com/ which has a special privacy statement that informs children and parents about the MSN Kids area, describes the additional privacy protections provided in this area, and provides children with tips on how to protect themselves online.

We encourage you to talk with your children about communicating with strangers and disclosing personal information online. You and your child can visit our online safety resources for additional information about using the Internet safely.

Use of Cookies
Microsoft Web sites use "cookies" to enable you to sign in to our services and to help personalize your online experience. A cookie is a small text file that is placed on your hard disk by a Web page server. Cookies contain information that can later be read by a web server in the domain that issued the cookie to you. Cookies cannot be used to run programs or deliver viruses to your computer.

Microsoft Web sites use cookies to store your preferences and other information on your computer in order to save you time by eliminating the need to repeatedly enter the same information and to display your personalized content and appropriate advertising on your later visits to these sites.

When you sign in to a site using your credentials, the Microsoft Passport Network stores your unique ID number, and the time you signed in, in an encrypted cookie on your hard disk. This cookie allows you to move from page to page at the site without having to sign in again on each page. When you sign out, these cookies are deleted from your computer. The Passport Network also uses cookies to improve the sign in experience. For example, your e-mail address may be stored in a cookie that will remain on your computer after you sign out. This cookie allows your e-mail address to be pre-populated, so that you will only need to type your password the next time you sign in. If you are using a public computer or do not otherwise want this information to be stored, you can select the appropriate radio button on the sign-in page, and this cookie will not be used.

You have the ability to accept or decline cookies. Most Web browsers automatically accept cookies, but you can usually modify your browser setting to decline cookies if you prefer. If you choose to decline cookies, you may not be able to sign in or use other interactive features of Microsoft sites and services that depend on cookies.

Use of Web Beacons
Microsoft Web pages may contain electronic images known as Web beacons - sometimes called single-pixel gifs - that may be used to assist in delivering cookies on our sites and allow us to count users who have visited those pages and to deliver co-branded services. We may include Web beacons in promotional e-mail messages or our newsletters in order to determine whether messages have been opened and acted upon.

Microsoft may also employ Web beacons from third parties in order to help us compile aggregated statistics and determine the effectiveness of our promotional campaigns. We prohibit Web beacons on our sites from being used by third parties to collect or access your personal information.

Finally, we may work with other companies that advertise on Microsoft sites to place Web beacons on their sites in order to allow us to develop statistics on how often clicking on an advertisement on a Microsoft site results in a purchase or other action on the advertiser's site.

Use of Third Party Ad Networks
The majority of the online banner advertisements you see on Microsoft Web pages are displayed by Microsoft. However, we allow other companies, called third-party ad servers or ad networks, to display advertisements on Microsoft Web pages. Some of these ad networks may place a persistent cookie on your computer in order to recognize your computer each time they send you an online advertisement. In this way, ad networks may compile information about where you, or others who are using your computer, saw their advertisements and determine which ads are clicked on. This information allows an ad network to deliver targeted advertisements that they believe will be of most interest to you. Microsoft does not have access to the cookies that may be placed by the third-party ad servers or ad networks.

Microsoft maintains relationships with a number of the third-party ad networks currently operating such as: Avenue A; BlueStreak; DoubleClick; Mediaplex; Pointroll; RealMedia; TangoZebra; and Unicast. Those ad networks that use persistent cookies may offer you a way to opt out of ad targeting. You may find more information at the Web site of either the individual ad network or the Network Advertising Initiative.

Controlling "Spam" or Unsolicited E-mail
Microsoft is concerned about controlling unsolicited commercial e-mail, or "spam." Microsoft has a strict Anti-Spam Policy prohibiting the use of a Hotmail or other MSN e-mail account to send spam. Microsoft will not sell, lease or rent its e-mail subscriber lists to third parties. While Microsoft continues to actively review and implement new technology, such as expanded filtering features, there is no currently available technology that will totally prevent the sending and receiving of unsolicited e-mail. Using tools such as the Inbox Protector and being cautious about the sharing of your e-mail address while online will help reduce the amount of unsolicited e-mail you receive.

TRUSTe Certification
Microsoft is a member of the TRUSTe Privacy Program. TRUSTe is an independent, non-profit organization whose mission is to build trust and confidence in the Internet by promoting the use of fair information practices. Because we want to demonstrate our commitment to your privacy, we have agreed to disclose our information practices and have our privacy practices reviewed for compliance by TRUSTe. The TRUSTe program covers only information that is collected through Microsoft's Web sites, and does not cover information that may be collected through software downloaded from such sites.

Enforcement of This Privacy Statement
If you have questions regarding this statement, you should first contact us by using our Web form. If you do not receive acknowledgement of your inquiry or your inquiry has not been satisfactorily addressed, you should then contact http://www.truste.org/consumers/watchdog_complaint.php. TRUSTe will serve as a liaison with Microsoft to resolve your concerns.

Changes to This Privacy Statement
We will occasionally update this privacy statement to reflect changes in our services and customer feedback. When we post changes to this Statement, we will revise the "last updated" date at the top of this statement. If there are material changes to this statement or in how Microsoft will use your personal information, we will notify you either by prominently posting a notice of such changes prior to implementing the change or by directly sending you a notification. We encourage you to periodically review this statement to be informed of how Microsoft is protecting your information.

Contacting Us
Microsoft welcomes your comments regarding this privacy statement. If you have questions about this statement or believe that we have not adhered to it, please contact us by using our Web form.

Microsoft Privacy, Microsoft Corporation, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, Washington 98052 - 425-882-8080

To find the Microsoft subsidiary in your country or region, see http://www.microsoft.com/worldwide/.

© 2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Anti-Spam Policy





Note that this page is a supplement to the Microsoft Online Privacy Statement. In order to understand the data collection and use practices relevant for a particular site or service, you should read both the Microsoft Online Privacy Statement and any applicable supplement.

Xbox LIVE, Games for Windows - LIVE and Xbox.com Privacy Supplement

last updated: March 2007

Gamertags and Nicknames

When you create a LIVE account for use with Xbox or Games for Windows, you will be asked to create a gamertag. You also may be allowed to pick separate nicknames to use in-game. These gamertags and nicknames will be shown to other players when you are signed in to the LIVE service for use with Xbox or Games for Windows (the "Service") and may be displayed with your game stats and presence status as displayed in-game, via Windows Live Messenger and/or on the Web. Since these names may be publicly displayed, you should not use your personal information when creating them. You may also have the opportunity to add attachments such as of photos, graphics, text, or audio to your stats information. If you do this, those attachments will be able to be viewed or heard by other users of the service.

Service Statistics

We may collect information about your usage of the Service. This information can include such activities as: times you sign-in to and sign-off from the Service; games that you have played on the Service; content you purchase on the Service; and game score statistics. If you use an Xbox 360 console that includes a storage device (hard drive or memory unit), and if you play offline or have never signed-in to the Service, usage data will be stored on the storage device of your Xbox console and sent to Microsoft the next time you sign in to the Service. However, in the Xbox LIVE Dashboard, you can delete this information from your storage device prior to connecting to the Service, or block it from being displayed to other users. When your Xbox is connected to the Internet, Microsoft is able to identify which Xbox console and which version of the Xbox Dashboard you are currently using. In addition, when accessing the Service via a personal computer, Microsoft will collect information about the LIVE software version you are using. This information is used specifically for the purpose of alerting Microsoft to provide you with appropriate auto-updates and to protect the security of the Service.

Anti-Cheating

In order to create a fair gaming experience for all users by detecting cheating, Microsoft will periodically collect the following information about your computer when you sign on to the Service via a personal computer for Games for Windows: your IP address, operating system and LIVE software version and other non-personally identifiable operating system and driver state information. In addition, Microsoft may also collect information about other software running on your computer that, based on Microsoft's analysis, is suspected to be software used for cheating and cheat reports generated by the LIVE software consisting of identification of suspected cheating software, your LIVE-enabled game software's product key, network performance data associated with your use of the Service and between you and other users of LIVE-enabled games, and crash information about the LIVE software. Microsoft will use this information to protect the security of the Service and may take enforcement action against your LIVE account; however, we will not use this information in any way which disables any other software running on your computer

Online Presence

If you are a subscriber of the Service, your gamertag, nicknames and statistics such as high scores will be visible to other subscribers through the Service, via Windows Live Messenger and on the Xbox.com Web site. Other data such as your gamer picture, motto, country, additional statistics, such as the games you play, and your online presence, may be available to other subscribers; however you can opt-out of sharing this data, or limit it to those on your friends list. If you use Xbox 360 or your personal computer, your gamertag will be automatically linked with your authentication network credentials so that when you sign into Xbox.com, Bungie.net, or other related gaming sites, your experience will be personalized and you will have access to additional features. If you use the original Xbox, you will have the opportunity to manually link your gamertag to your authentication network credentials in the My Xbox section of the Web site. The linkage between your gamertag and Windows LIVE ID may be also shared with 3rd party game sites in order for those sites to provide you with a personalized experience when you sign in.

Accessing your Information

Whether you access the Service from an Xbox console or via your personal computer, you can view or edit your personal information, or change your contact and data sharing preferences, at any time on the My Xbox page on Xbox.com. You may also update your information by selecting Privacy Settings under Edit Gamer Profile for an Xbox 360, or selecting the Info Sharing option in Account Management for the Original Xbox LIVE Dashboard. You can cancel your account to the Service by calling Customer Support at 1-800-4MY-XBOX.

Family Settings and Parental Consent

If you have children that use the Service, you can choose to set up child accounts during account creation using the Family Settings features. Children's usage information, such as games played, download history, and friends list, may be made available to the owner of the parent account associated with the child. Owners of the associated parent accounts can use the default settings for child accounts or can customize the level of restrictions for each child account.

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[QUOTE=lowenbotten;13914891]Useless post. It is irrelevant if $50 is a big deal or not. When does it become a big deal? $100? $200? And who decides when it becomes a big deal? You? Being older than 13 and having a job doesn't mean $50 is nothing, especially in this day and age.
QUOTE]

i disagree with you completely. as i stated before $50 is NOT a big deal to anyone with a job, house, car, internet, next gen gaming system, hdtv, computer, etc, etc. Many of those things mentioned are luxury items.

When money becomes relevant is very subjective but we can only go on the evidence given. If $50 really meant something to the OP, in terms of survivability, they would have caught it on the FIRST CC STATEMENT without fail.

Since this is the case and the only evidence we have, we can reasonably assume that the OP just has anger/greed/improper perspective issues. Letting money rule your life becomes an ugly thing. Especially when someone gets upset over such a little amount. You are the winner if you don't let money rule your life. Yeah partly he got screwed and partly he didn't pay attention (to CC bills or the fine print). He becomes the winner if he forgets about it and goes on with life. He becomes the loser if he spends XXXX hours on the phone complaining and internet complaining and at home complaining and at work complaining.

He didn't have to check it "every month" - he had to check it for one month, the month following his cancellation request. If he gets billed, he calls them back then and says "Excuse me, I have cancellation number ABC123 here saying you guys aren't billing me any more. Reverse the charges or I'll do a chargeback."

But it's all M-Dollar-Sign's fault, of course. Financial responsibility is just waaaay too much work in this day and age. :rolleyes:

bingo

I agree 100%. Just don't give them your cc info. They have the 13 monthers on sale for 39$ semi regularly. I think xbl is worth it. And I have to buy 3 xbl accounts a year.

Seems like a waste of time to This is why you buy a XBL Gold card and enter the code. Can't be billed to a cc that isn't in the system. I buy both MS points and Live Gold this way.

I agree 100%. Just don't give them your cc info. They have the 13 monthers on sale for 39$ semi regularly. I think xbl is worth it. And I have to buy 3 xbl accounts a year.

Seems like a waste of time to

Excuse me for asking, but why do you need 3 accounts?

This is the point where I drop out of the conversation. I'm sure I won't be missed, but I'll leave saying one last thing "some of you guys missed the point entirely".

I do agree, the situation with Microsoft having a call titled "canceled account" on file and not refunding is a slap in the face to the consumer.

/ The real moral of this story is man up "Don't let your woman control the credit card".

Wow. That's really...something.

Anyway, the Canceled Account reference is probably either placed automatically if it's an automated system where you hit a number for the reason you're calling or the CSR put it there at the beginning of the call when he asked for the reason for the call. The point being that just because there was an entry for "Canceled Account" doesn't mean that the call/transaction was completed. For all the supervisor knows the customer changed his mind in the course of dialog with the CSR.

And yes, I'm defending the CSR/supervisor in this case. If I can "hear" the tone of your post I can't imagine what you were like on the phone.

Sorry you had an issue with getting them to stop charging your card; I've had issues with other subscriptions [not xbl] in the past; and recognize that this stuff does happen no matter what business some transactions are going to fall through the cracks. That being said I don't think it's acceptable and companies need to be more proactive in updating their billing systems to avoid these issues in the future.

On that note I will agree with what others have said previously [and I do understand that in your case you had certain circumstances that took priority]....ALWAYS check your CC statement especially when you are waiting for a credit [from a return] or for automatic billing [in this case] cease.

Heck, I've had issues with B&M stores refunding money even though I was physically in their store and have a receipt that show the money should go back to my account. I would have never caught it without looking at my statement.

So, until the process is perfect [which it never will be] it is our [the consumer] responsibility to monitor our statements; certainly the Companies aren't double checking them.

I wish the people who claim $50 is not a big deal just send the OP $50 and he will promise to ask the mods to delete this thread. How 'bout that?

Is AVS made of Corporate Attorneys? LOL! I may need some of you guys in the future.

Is AVS made of Corporate Attorneys? LOL! I may need some of you guys in the future.

LOL

Funny, but no. There are, however, some people who realize that "the customer is always right" was never right. It's great when you're the customer, but when you start working for a business and dealing with customers you begin to understand how wrong that statement is. It should be "start out assuming the customer is right but know the customer is usually confused". :D

The advice to use the 13 month subscription cards is all well and good, except for anyone who had already signed up with a credit card before they knew of any problems with removing a CC from the account.

LOL

Funny, but no. There are, however, some people who realize that "the customer is always right" was never right. It's great when you're the customer, but when you start working for a business and dealing with customers you begin to understand how wrong that statement is. It should be "start out assuming the customer is right but know the customer is usually confused". :D

A valid point.

The customer is not always right... but a good business will act like the customer is right.

At the same time, a good customer should remember not to abuse the above. ;)

I wish the people who claim $50 is not a big deal just send the OP $50 and he will promise to ask the mods to delete this thread. How 'bout that?

We are trying to teach the OP how to fish. We're not just going to order him a swordfish dinner at Legal Sea Foods. If I send him $50, he'll just find something else small money-wise to complain about. He needs to change "where his treasure is" from $50 to _____________.

The customer may not always be right, but when you have a call on file under "canceled account" then the same customer calls complaining that the account wasn't canceled, good customer service should come into play and you refund the guy his money. It wasn't like the guy made a call out of the blue telling them they should refund him his 4 months...they had documentation he previously called regarding a cancellation. On top of that, the OP says that MS confirmed his wife hadn't logged onto the service over those 4 months.

I wouldn't accuse MS of stealing or screwing the OP on purpose, but I would accuse them of terrible customer service.

We are trying to teach the OP how to fish. We're not just going to order him a swordfish dinner at Legal Sea Foods. If I send him $50, he'll just find something else small money-wise to complain about. He needs to change "where his treasure is" from $50 to _____________.

I understand what you're trying to say but he is obviously choosing to fight this battle so it must be worth it to him. No 3rd party can put worth on something for someone. One man's trash...

...
If I send him $50, he'll just find something else small money-wise to complain about. He needs to change "where his treasure is" from $50 to _____________.


That's pretty presumptuous and insulting.

As stated before, this issue is about principle, not about dollar amounts. $5, $50, $500, $5,000, doesn't matter. If an individual feels that they are not getting good customer service (in whatever form it takes), and if s/he is willing to deal with the grind of getting the issue resolved while wading through the layers of bureaucracy found in these large corporations, more power to them.

No one is necessarily saying MS is evil, but if they can't admit they made a mistake in charging the OP and rectify the problem this would just portray them as an extremely arrogant company with no regard for the people who use their services in good faith.

i disagree with you completely. as i stated before $50 is NOT a big deal to anyone with a job, house, car, internet, next gen gaming system, hdtv, computer, etc, etc. Many of those things mentioned are luxury items.

Speak for yourself. MY money is always a big deal! He said he lost $120 total, because it wasn't cancelled after the first month.

Letting money rule your life becomes an ugly thing. Especially when someone gets upset over such a little amount. You are the winner if you don't let money rule your life. Yeah partly he got screwed and partly he didn't pay attention (to CC bills or the fine print). He becomes the winner if he forgets about it and goes on with life. He becomes the loser if he spends XXXX hours on the phone complaining and internet complaining and at home complaining and at work complaining.

Your post is contradictory. You tell him not to worry so much about money, when that's exactly what he was doing. He didn't keep a magnifying glass eye on his statements, because he trusted Microsoft....to do their job (follow the policy), as they told him they would. How much more relaxed can you be?! Wow! These posts are very surprising. We all complain about something at some point (remember when LIVE was down?), and look to others for support, especially when done wrong by big corps. This one seems kinda easy to call. It's like saying Halo 3 deserves a 10. We all know it's Halo 2.5! Some people just don't like to make the easy calls, and would rather find some way to argue against it. Hey, I love Microsoft Gaming too, but not enough to sacrifice a fellow gamer, or anybody. One day it could be me....or you.
Some people here are not consistent with their supporting of such big corp. issues anyway. This month you won't support MarkH, but turn around and support someone else on the same issue-only worded differently-next month. Yeah, his post has a angry tone to it, so what?! He's justified. Some of these posts seem filled with apathy....and really kinda weak. I guess you all would just sit back and pay $10 a gallon for gas also, right? No, everything is not "all good". Like all my other responses to similar issues in other threads: You'd want someone to support you on something that's important to you, right? Of course you would. Simply not using the service is letting them off the hook and potentially opening the flood gates for fraud. Then we'll all be checking statements every second. Do you check your burger every time you eat a fast food joint? No, because you usually trust for that moment that no one spit in it. Imagine if there was absolutely no need for credibility or responsibility to do right by the consumer, or anybody! Bad times....for all.

Speak for yourself. MY money is always a big deal! He said he lost $120 total, because it wasn't cancelled after the first month.



Your post is contradictory. You tell him not to worry so much about money, when that's exactly what he was doing. He didn't keep a magnifying glass eye on his statements, because he trusted Microsoft....to do their job (follow the policy), as they told him they would. How much more relaxed can you be?! Wow! These posts are very surprising. We all complain about something at some point (remember when LIVE was down?), and look to others for support, especially when done wrong by big corps. This one seems kinda easy to call. It's like saying Halo 3 deserves a 10. We all know it's Halo 2.5! Some people just don't like to make the easy calls, and would rather find some way to argue against it. Hey, I love Microsoft Gaming too, but not enough to sacrifice a fellow gamer, or anybody. One day it could be me....or you.
Some people here are not consistent with their supporting of such big corp. issues anyway. This month you won't support MarkH, but turn around and support someone else on the same issue-only worded differently-next month. Yeah, his post has a angry tone to it, so what?! He's justified. Some of these posts seem filled with apathy....and really kinda weak. I guess you all would just sit back and pay $10 a gallon for gas also, right? No, everything is not "all good". Like all my other responses to similar issues in other threads: You'd want someone to support you on something that's important to you, right? Of course you would. Simply not using the service is letting them off the hook and potentially opening the flood gates for fraud. Then we'll all be checking statements every second. Do you check your burger every time you eat a fast food joint? No, because you usually trust for that moment that no one spit in it. Imagine if there was absolutely no need for credibility or responsibility to do right by the consumer, or anybody! Bad times....for all.

WOW

You haven't read the terms & conditions either huh?

We are trying to teach the OP how to fish. We're not just going to order him a swordfish dinner at Legal Sea Foods. If I send him $50, he'll just find something else small money-wise to complain about. He needs to change "where his treasure is" from $50 to _____________.

Man, this sounds so condescending. Not only are there Corp. Attorneys here but also Philosophical Scholars willing to teach the ways of life. Some guys are just too much.

Why are so many people only refering to the $50 as "not a big deal" for a customer? If an avarage person can just shrug it off, it would seem that a multi-billion dollar empire should be able to do the same.

What's sad is that MS probably spent more money for the phone call and wage of the representative than it would've cost them to just refund the guy his money. I guess to them an individual is just nothing, which makes me feel even better about selling my 360.

The customer may not always be right, but when you have a call on file under "canceled account" then the same customer calls complaining that the account wasn't canceled, good customer service should come into play and you refund the guy his money. It wasn't like the guy made a call out of the blue telling them they should refund him his 4 months...they had documentation he previously called regarding a cancellation. On top of that, the OP says that MS confirmed his wife hadn't logged onto the service over those 4 months.
I wouldn't accuse MS of stealing or screwing the OP on purpose, but I would accuse them of terrible customer service.

+1 Exactly. The thing that gets me about this phone call that was made (assuming it is word for word 100% true) is how it seems like no process is in place the even allows the MS customer service employee to start a process of looking into giving a refund. In most cases a service rep would have a way to get a claim looked at by someone with the authority to refund the money, even if they had no intention of refunding the money. Smells fishy to me.

/Just finished a semester of introduction to business and one of the points stressed regularly was that the customer was always right.

Man, this sounds so condescending. Not only are there Corp. Attorneys here but also Philosophical Scholars willing to teach the ways of life. Some guys are just too much.

Surprising as it might be, corporate attorneys like to unwind by chainsawing people in twain in Gears of War too.

WOW

You haven't read the terms & conditions either huh?



And if he hadn't then what? He doesn't deserve to get his money back?

Apparently some people here aren't familiar with the term 'acting in good faith': ie- he asked them to stop charging his card, therefore common sense and logic would expect that MS would do as he requested.

I guess when one creates 'terms and conditions' one is now absolved from acting in good faith, huh?

+1 Exactly. The thing that gets me about this phone call that was made (assuming it is word for word 100% true) is how it seems like no process is in place the even allows the MS customer service employee to start a process of looking into giving a refund. In most cases a service rep would have a way to get a claim looked at by someone with the authority to refund the money, even if they had no intention of refunding the money. Smells fishy to me.

I think that's probably a bold assumption. In the first post he says that the supervisor told him that the call had ended early (got disconnected). As I said before, if THAT'S true, why would you give him a refund? For all you (as the supervisor) know he changed his mind mid-call.

/Just finished a semester of introduction to business and one of the points stressed regularly was that the customer was always right.

You'll learn when you get into the "real" world...

And if he hadn't then what? He doesn't deserve to get his money back?

Apparently some people here aren't familiar with the term 'acting in good faith': ie- he asked them to stop charging his card, therefore common sense and logic would expect that MS would do as he requested.

I guess when one create 'terms and conditions' one is now absolved from acting in good faith, huh?

I think common sense and logic would tell you to verify that they had done as you requested.

The customer may not always be right, but when you have a call on file under "canceled account" then the same customer calls complaining that the account wasn't canceled, good customer service should come into play and you refund the guy his money. It wasn't like the guy made a call out of the blue telling them they should refund him his 4 months...they had documentation he previously called regarding a cancellation.

Maybe. It really depends on if we're getting the whole story, which I doubt. I've said it twice now and I'll say it again: How would the supervisor know exactly what happened in the course of that call just by the "heading"? How does he know the customer didn't change his mind?

On top of that, the OP says that MS confirmed his wife hadn't logged onto the service over those 4 months.

That's completely irrelevant in this case. I have a yearly gold subscription to Live. Every year my card gets charged the yearly fee (I can't remember right now how much it is). I rarely use the service. I could easily go 6 months without using any of the gold services. So, should I be able to renew in January, not use the service, and then call in June and say I want a refund for those 6 months because I didn't use it?

I think common sense and logic would tell you to verify that they had done as you requested.

So you have a problem with his timing? Again, so what?

Would you be more satisfied if he checked the next month right after he called? It would not change the fact that MS did not stop charging his account (and to put a fine point on it, he DID check to verify; he just happened to do it after 4 months).

The timing issue is a tree in the forest. Doesn't matter if he checked his account one day, one month or one year after he asked them to stop charging him. They did NOT stop charging him after they had been asked to. THAT is the point.

So you have a problem with his timing? Again, so what?

Would you be more satisfied if he checked the next month right after he called? It would not change the fact that MS did not stop charging his account (and to put a fine point on it he DID check to verify; he just happened to do it after 4 months).

The timing issue is a tree in the forest. Doesn't matter if he checked is account one day, one month or one year after he asked them to stop charging him. They did NOT stop charging him after they had been asked to. THAT is the point.

Yes, I would be much more satisfied if he checked it immediately. You have to try to see it from a different perspective. That's difficult for some, I know. Anyway, if he calls the month after his cancellation call the CSR/supervisor look at the situation and possibly think that the original CSR screwed up. They then possibly credit the account. Maybe they don't and THAT would be bad service in my opinion. However, since he calls 4 months later, now the CSR and supervisor look at it and possibly think that maybe he changed his mind on the first call. Maybe the first CSR is doing his job and convinced him of the merits of Xbox Live and got him to stick around for awhile. So now, he stays on for 4 additional "evaluation" months and decides he doesn't want it. Why would they credit his account for that? And then, of course, they could just be conspiring against the customer to screw him. There's always that.

Maybe. It really depends on if we're getting the whole story, which I doubt. I've said it twice now and I'll say it again: How would the supervisor know exactly what happened in the course of that call just by the "heading"? How does he know the customer didn't change his mind?



That's completely irrelevant in this case. I have a yearly gold subscription to Live. Every year my card gets charged the yearly fee (I can't remember right now how much it is). I rarely use the service. I could easily go 6 months without using any of the gold services. So, should I be able to renew in January, not use the service, and then call in June and say I want a refund for those 6 months because I didn't use it?

You not using a yearly plan for a portion of the contract is completely different than a person signing up for 1 month, not using it, calling to cancel, still not using it, finding out that the company didn't cancel and is still charging the monthly fee, and on top of that the sum of the monthly fee totalling more than the cost of a yearly fee.

Also, please tell us of your experience in the real world, it seems I've been working in an illusionary world where satisfying the customer, even when it's not good for business in the short term, has been a priority for years.

So you have a problem with his timing? Again, so what?

Would you be more satisfied if he checked the next month right after he called? It would not change the fact that MS did not stop charging his account (and to put a fine point on it, he DID check to verify; he just happened to do it after 4 months).

The timing issue is a tree in the forest. Doesn't matter if he checked his account one day, one month or one year after he asked them to stop charging him. They did NOT stop charging him after they had been asked to. THAT is the point.

No the point is this is a "Lessoned Learned Experience" and that this is no different than any other buisness like Cingular for your cellphone to internet service with Comcast or Directv. In this day and age you have email confirmations for just about everything or letters in the mail stating this service was cancelled. Regardless if you can't that you were being billed still which I pointed out the break down in communication with the wife since she is the only one that sees the bills to begin with:

The reason my wife didnt think this charge was abnormal when showing up on the CC statements was simply beacuse of the fact that I buy MS points via the same card, so it was not uncommon to see a MS charge on there. As it is "only" AU$10.95 per month, not something that would normally raise a concern.

But yet the OP was worried about the money at the time but no concern about a follow up on the bill statements or to let the wife know "hey look out for this if we get billed because I cancelled my account that we should no longer get charged for"

Thats why the month after gets brought up because of the communication break down regardless of what was happening at the time.

...You have to try to see it from a different perspective. That's difficult for some, I know....

Yes...you are proving this point quite well.

We can make up any imaginary scenario for the CSR we want...maybe armed gunmen broke into the CSR headquarters and forced all the CSRs to renege on all promises made for the day he called in...which is just as fanciful as your proposed scenario.

While the OP's account is one sided...it is totally plausible. Your alternative reconstruction of events may have happened but there is no proof and the plausibility of it seems fairly low.

Wow, I cannot believe that some of you are pretty harsh at the OP. I can totally sympatize with his frustrations, regardless of fault. As I tend to age (I am not that old yet), the last thing I want is more headaches. If I take my car in for service, I will pay whatever they want for 'service' and I expect that they do a good job. If they loose my emblem that was on the engine, and I notice this 4 months later, I will ask them to replace the emblem next time I take the car for service, and I expect them to do this free of charge. If I make a phone call to MS and spend 63 minutes on the phone to cancel a subscription, I expect them to do it. Weather I look at my credit card statements or not is not the point. I have given them verbal instructions (which is probably recorded) and that is a binding contract. They have breached that contract and have fraudulently continued to bill the posters credit card. No one is going to get lawyers involved for $50, but that is just bad business practice when the supervisor is refusing to accomadate (at least partially). Rather than making it easy for people to access account information, they have deliberately made it difficult. This is a business decision on MS's part, and we all know why, because many people will just hang up and 'forget about it' because it is not worth their time.

The moral of the story, and I think that the OP posted this subject for this reason, is to alert other Xbox owners about possible issues, and the importance of a)getting a verification number b)not to 'trust' that things will get done as expected, and verify things weeks/month latter (cc statement) and most importantly c) do not sign up a Gold account with a credit card. There have been many threads here and elsewhere where MS 'cannot' remove a credit card from their file (makes no sense to me why not). Just buy your Gold subscriptions/MS points from local stores or Amazon instead. It is a pain typing inthe 25 digits, but despite the less convienence, less of a hassel in the long run.

You not using a yearly plan for a portion of the contract is completely different than a person signing up for 1 month, not using it, calling to cancel, still not using it, finding out that the company didn't cancel and is still charging the monthly fee, and on top of that the sum of the monthly fee totalling more than the cost of a yearly fee.

Also, please tell us of your experience in the real world, it seems I've been working in an illusionary world where satisfying the customer, even when it's not good for business in the short term, has been a priority for years.

Did you not read what I wrote above that? The assumption was that the company employees didn't think that he had ACTUALLY CANCELED the account. So what's the difference between someone choosing to pay by month or choosing to pay by year, not using the service, and then retroactively trying to get a credit for those unused months? As soon as you make the leap that the company is trying to screw him, you become correct in that they should have credited him.

My experience is with a large corporation that gets hundreds of calls a day, many of which are from people that wonder why you've disconnected their service. When you tell them it's because they haven't paid their bill for X months they become angry and belligerent as if it's your fault that they can't pay a bill. That person might go to an online forum and complain about how this company is trying to steal his money because he sent those bills in but they refuse to acknowledge them.

Yes, I know this is a very different situation but the point is that you can't always trust the "customer" to come to this forum and give us the whole story.

Surprising as it might be, corporate attorneys like to unwind by chainsawing people in twain in Gears of War too.

Oh, I believe it! LOL

Maybe. It really depends on if we're getting the whole story, which I doubt. I've said it twice now and I'll say it again: How would the supervisor know exactly what happened in the course of that call just by the "heading"? How does he know the customer didn't change his mind?



That's completely irrelevant in this case. I have a yearly gold subscription to Live. Every year my card gets charged the yearly fee (I can't remember right now how much it is). I rarely use the service. I could easily go 6 months without using any of the gold services. So, should I be able to renew in January, not use the service, and then call in June and say I want a refund for those 6 months because I didn't use it?

What you are leaving out of your example is that you wouldn't have a record on file, 6 months previously, of having a conversation with MS customer service regarding a cancellation. The OP has that record. MS acknowledged he had a conversation with them dealing with a cancellation 4 months previous to his next call. Over that time there was no activity on that account. If you had called them in January, told them you wanted to cancel and they have a record of that call, then 6 months later you found out they didn't cancel, then yes, you should get your money back.

Yes...you are proving this point quite well.

We can make up any imaginary scenario for the CSR we want...maybe armed gunmen broke into the CSR headquarters and forced all the CSRs to renege on all promises made for the day he called in...which is just as fanciful as your proposed scenario.

While the OP's account is one sided...it is totally plausible. Your alternative reconstruction of events may have happened but there is no proof and the plausibility of it seems fairly low.

The proposed situation is plausible, but I digress.

So we have proof that what the OP says is actually what happened? If yes, then I'll switch sides! Don't you think that maybe before accusing a company (ANY company) of fraud and theft that we should have their take? Obviously, we're not going to get it here, but that was really my larger point. People are too quick to jump on the bandwagon of one person that complains about service from a major company.

I don't understand why you or ms can't take the cc off of your live account. My sympathy to the op, the same thing happened to me when i cancelled my cc a month or so prior to renewing my subscription, they ended up charging my cc and it then reactivated it. I recieved my statement from my cancelled card called the cc right away got refunded called ms and told them to take the card off the account and they said that they can't do it BS. A year goes by and they tried to charge the same cancelled card. That is indeed as shady as the op situation. I don't understand how they can keep a card even a cacelled one on the account.

The proposed situation is plausible, but I digress.

So we have proof that what the OP says is actually what happened? If yes, then I'll switch sides! Don't you think that maybe before accusing a company (ANY company) of fraud and theft that we should have their take? Obviously, we're not going to get it here, but that was really my larger point. People are too quick to jump on the bandwagon of one person that complains about service from a major company.


Public relations department? Lobbyist? Shareholder?

Just trying to figure out your occupation.


Anyway...if the OP had bought a 12 month subscription and decided after 5 months he wanted a full refund because he didn't like Live's interface or because he mis-spelled his gamer tag, I'm sure very few people would support him. Those demands are unreasonable in my eyes and I would hazard to guess that most would find unreasonable as well. The situation the the OP describes is not unreasonable, and so I view MS's response to be unreasonable, deliberate and arrogant. I wish him luck in the resolution.

This is the kind of issue where media attention would prompt a swift reaction from MS. Where's Katie Couric when you need her? :)

Always ask for a confirmation number when cancelling via telephone or email. If I don't get one I assume it wasn't cancelled. You need to have a paper trail when doing things like this. You never know who is going to drop the ball. I actually had XBOX live delete my credit card information when I first signed up for service, because I noticed that the information remained even though I had cancelled service. I was charged for the following month because I had not called to cancel the service prior to the cancellation deadline. I had a service rep contact me once cancellation and credit card information was deleted. I now purchase membership cards from costco, it's cheaper and I don't have to worry about getting an unexpected charge from Microsoft. If you let them, they will rape you!

Public relations department? Lobbyist? Shareholder?

Just trying to figure out your occupation.

LOL.

Secret Agent. Shhh, don't tell.

Non of the above. I'm actually not employed in the technology sector at all, and I don't own any technology stock. And I'm not a lobbyist for anyone. I just take into consideration that people's words in an online forum are a one-sided argument.

People are quick to jump on both band wagons obviously.

Did you not read what I wrote above that? The assumption was that the company employees didn't think that he had ACTUALLY CANCELED the account. So what's the difference between someone choosing to pay by month or choosing to pay by year, not using the service, and then retroactively trying to get a credit for those unused months? As soon as you make the leap that the company is trying to screw him, you become correct in that they should have credited him.

My experience is with a large corporation that gets hundreds of calls a day, many of which are from people that wonder why you've disconnected their service. When you tell them it's because they haven't paid their bill for X months they become angry and belligerent as if it's your fault that they can't pay a bill. That person might go to an online forum and complain about how this company is trying to steal his money because he sent those bills in but they refuse to acknowledge them.

Yes, I know this is a very different situation but the point is that you can't always trust the "customer" to come to this forum and give us the whole story.

Signing a year long contract and not using it for the first six months and asking for a refund and not getting it. That is a matter of you fulfilling a contract.

Signing a monthly contract, fulfilling that contract, calling to cancel the automatic re-enrollment and having the company not follow through on that request, billing more, and then acknoledging that the request was made but not followed through be cause of a technicallity called "early disconnection" (which could mean that the customer hung up before the CSR finished the list of persuasive tactics to make customer reconsider). That is a matter of the company shirking its responsibilities to the customer.

At the very least you should be able to recognize that the customer gained nothing by having a Gold account during the period in question, as zero usage was recorded, and that MS incured no actual costs associated with keeping that account active.

regards to the part I bolded, why do you get to make that assumption about what the CSR's think about the customer, but others making similar assumptions about the CSR's not having the autonomy to make logical decisions are wrong. Is that based on experience as a CSR?

Because there is an attitude and assumption on his part that the person complaining is wrong. He doesn't really come out and call him a liar but he might as well.

I wonder how many things in the world "didn't happen" just because someone wasn't able to prove to a stranger on the intarweb that it did. LOL!

Because there is an attitude and assumption on his part that the person complaining is wrong. He doesn't really come out and call him a liar but he might as well.

No it is just that some of you seem to miss the disconnect that he could have stopped the bleeding earlier than six months. We don't have the full story as stated earlier all we have is the first post and then todays post from the OP. Some of you need to go read again what he wrote and see the disconnects that could have made this situation lesser than what it is today. Yes it is great to learn from experiences in a forum on what happen with someones situation but at the same time at some point in all this you have to actually sit down and look at what could I have done differently to avoid this situation or in the future how to handle it next time(insert any company here) to get the results I want.

There are things that could have been done differently on BOTH parts. LOL, come on that's why there was a mistake in the first place. It is/was not all the OP's fault. MS has it on record that he called to cancel his subscription, but says that there was a disconnect. Perhaps MS could have sent an email inquiring about the status of his account?

There are things that could have been done differently on BOTH parts. LOL, come on that's why there was a mistake in the first place. It is/was not all the OP's fault. MS has it on record that he called to cancel his subscription, but says that there was a disconnect. Perhaps MS could have sent an email inquiring about the status of his account?

DING DING DING. The thing is they probably did just that and unfortunatly it went to spam for all we know. What did TGable say earlier in the thread that he discontinued his email account he created with his Gamertag. They probably sent him one too about reminders. The same reminders that I get about my Live service renewing in a month because I chose to have that notification sent to me just so I know what funds are coming out of the budget I have for that month. I never said this was all the OP fault at all and some have pointed out that yes "Sh*t" happens but my thing is this could have been resovled/avoided alot sooner if their was consistent communication since his wife only looks at the CC charges and overlooked the charge assuming it was a different type of charge. My question with that was well if you were trying to cancel the account becuse you were supposed to be charged why would she assume it was one of the point cards instead of MS? Isn't it just like when I do a debit charge it shows the company you purchased the service from wether that is online for the points or you walked in a store like Best Buy and paid on that credit card. Your statement would show to different companies even though the charge that he pointed out is the same. Some keep saying write off it was just 50$ and no I don't agree with that but then again this wasn't 50$ for one month this was 11$ he pointed out for that month only on the charges that added up to 50$

I am simply going by what was posted by the OP is all we have to go off of.

For those of who wish to drag me through the mud (and fail to read posts properly), let me iterate a few points.

1. Yes I was angry when I posted this thread as it was not long after I got off the phone with M$. Nothing however has been embellished or incorrectly stated by me in reference to the story.
2. I have no problems with admitting I DID NOT read the terms and conditions when I first purchased the 1 month subscription. I understand that the money taken in this period is fair game based on their T&C. Some of you seem to think that Im expecting to be recouped for this. I am not. That however does not mean I am not entitled to be angry and frustrated with what a 1 month subscription actually means when it comes to XBox LIve.
3. The "money lost" isnt the issue - its the fact that, and Ill repeat once more, I followed protocol and the solution I requested was not carried out. However, I urge all of you driving BMWs and enjoying your assasination of my character to think about this for a moment, you buy something and it ultimately costs you 10 times at much - How would you feel? For some the money aspect is THE reason to complain. For others its both the money AND the principal of the issue at hand. Had I purchased a 1 year subscription I wouldve saved money overall.
4. $50 or whatever some of you mention may be money spent on luxury items, but in an age when (Ill speak from experience within the country I reside in) interest rates are going up, as is petrol and general standard of living, that $50 is money better off in my pocket than M$'s, especially when it was not M$'s to take.
5. Everyone who mentioned it is indeed correct - I shouldve looked at my CC statement the following month. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, as is not having to spend a fortune travelling back to my home country and prioritising funeral arrangements. Some of you seem to enjoy attacking me because I didnt check the statement immediately, yet on the other hand you seem so frivilous with money that i cant imagine you guys doing the same.
6. I was never given a reference number after the first call. The first ended normally. It was not disconnected. I am not confused about what happened. If I ever get a copy of the recorder phone call from M$ (requested) I will happily make it available to anybody on here.
7. I have a separate active XBox Live account, so I dont think a CSR in December talked me into keeping an unused account by a different family member OPEN.
8. Im not sure how I can validate my story, short of giving you guys access to my personal info and ringing up M$ yourselves. However if anyone has a solution for this by all means Im open ears.
9. Im not a fan of PS3 gaming, however had we done this on the PSN we would not be in the same situation. Why? Because its free!

I'd like to address some people directly here:-

bbexperience - please see point 7 above. And also, if I lied and the original call had been terminated early, why would I quote that the supervisor had said this? Why would I change my mind regarding the cancellation? The account was NEVER used. Wouldnt it make more sense to just not mention that part of the story to create some form of additional sympathy towards my case? I dont blame the supervisor for yesterdays' outcome, I blame the service agent I spoke to in December for not doing his job properly. If he did we would not be here discussing it now. Despite buying that 1 month subscription, my wife NEVER used it, and Xbox confirmed that no activity has been logged on that account since its creation, 12 months ago, despite being charged for it. This is not why I expect a refund for the whole perios - I expect a refund for 4 months after the account was supposed to be cancelled.
And I havent just wandered into this forum, guns blazing. I have been a member since 2002.

mboojigga - You are correct - its quite plausable that the renew email (or a cancellation email) got lost via spam. Unlikely though, as while both emails used for the Xbox accounts are different, they are both accesible by me and set up EXACTLY the same. And Xbox confirmed yesterday that they DO NOT send out an email confirmation of a cancelled account, although they dont hesitate to send you out a renewel email. My account has always had the luxury of being renewed with a retail subscription card, which obviously after this malarky Ill always chose over online subscription.

andross77 - you seem to enjoy character assasinations on this forum dont you? One one hand you seem intelligent yet one the other you are rude and insulting. Congrats on showing us the "other" side of the AVSForum.


Guys, there isnt any agenda here on my part - I am simply disappointed that my request in December was not carried out, and it has cost me additional money, hence why I was venting yesterday. I dont want to argue with any of you, but rather than think up scenarios or make assumptions based on what little you know of me, or the situation (as some of you claim Im not telling the whole story)please feel free to ask me any questions relating to this matter.
To those who PM'd me, I thank all of you.

That's pretty presumptuous and insulting.

As stated before, this issue is about principle, not about dollar amounts. $5, $50, $500, $5,000, doesn't matter. If an individual feels that they are not getting good customer service (in whatever form it takes), and if s/he is willing to deal with the grind of getting the issue resolved while wading through the layers of bureaucracy found in these large corporations, more power to them.

No one is necessarily saying MS is evil, but if they can't admit they made a mistake in charging the OP and rectify the problem this would just portray them as an extremely arrogant company with no regard for the people who use their services in good faith.

but the problem is, this won't accomplish anything. getting $50 back from microsoft won't hurt them financially. And swearing off all their products in the future and telling all his friends and family that microsoft is the devil and the worst company ever also won't accomplish anything. Since that is the case, why not let the money go?

Speak for yourself. MY money is always a big deal! He said he lost $120 total, because it wasn't cancelled after the first month.

if you read the post, you can't count $120, b/c at least half of that was 100% his fault for not reading the terms and conditions. Sure he's crying about it but that doesn't make it illegal or a bad business practice in the least sense. So we are really talking about $50-$60. per OP own words "I have no problems with admitting I DID NOT read the terms and conditions when I first purchased the 1 month subscription. I understand that the money taken in this period is fair game based on their T&C."


Your post is contradictory. You tell him not to worry so much about money, when that's exactly what he was doing. He didn't keep a magnifying glass eye on his statements, because he trusted Microsoft....to do their job (follow the policy), as they told him they would. How much more relaxed can you be?! Wow! These posts are very surprising. We all complain about something at some point (remember when LIVE was down?), and look to others for support, especially when done wrong by big corps. This one seems kinda easy to call. It's like saying Halo 3 deserves a 10. We all know it's Halo 2.5! Some people just don't like to make the easy calls, and would rather find some way to argue against it. Hey, I love Microsoft Gaming too, but not enough to sacrifice a fellow gamer, or anybody. One day it could be me....or you.
Some people here are not consistent with their supporting of such big corp. issues anyway. This month you won't support MarkH, but turn around and support someone else on the same issue-only worded differently-next month. Yeah, his post has a angry tone to it, so what?! He's justified. Some of these posts seem filled with apathy....and really kinda weak. I guess you all would just sit back and pay $10 a gallon for gas also, right? No, everything is not "all good". Like all my other responses to similar issues in other threads: You'd want someone to support you on something that's important to you, right? Of course you would. Simply not using the service is letting them off the hook and potentially opening the flood gates for fraud. Then we'll all be checking statements every second. Do you check your burger every time you eat a fast food joint? No, because you usually trust for that moment that no one spit in it. Imagine if there was absolutely no need for credibility or responsibility to do right by the consumer, or anybody! Bad times....for all.

How is the bold contradictory? i KNOW he's making a big deal out of it. And i'm telling him NOT TO because the stressed caused is not worth the money to be possibly recovered. It's just an unhealthy view on life.

I understand your points and i agree with most of them. BUT, what i'm trying to say is that people need to be a little more laid back. Look at how much anger and frustration is coming from the OP and his defenders. It's a lot. I'm just here saying that you can live a better life and your mental and emotional state will be much better if you can learn to let go of small things. And again, if he has most of the things i listed (house, car, internet, computer, hdtv, etc) then this definitely qualifies as a "small" thing.

For those of who wish to drag me through the mud (and fail to read posts properly), let me iterate a few points.

1. Yes I was angry when I posted this thread as it was not long after I got off the phone with M$. Nothing however has been embellished or incorrectly stated by me in reference to the story.
2. I have no problems with admitting I DID NOT read the terms and conditions when I first purchased the 1 month subscription. I understand that the money taken in this period is fair game based on their T&C. Some of you seem to think that Im expecting to be recouped for this. I am not. That however does not mean I am not entitled to be angry and frustrated with what a 1 month subscription actually means when it comes to XBox LIve.
3. The "money lost" isnt the issue - its the fact that, and Ill repeat once more, I followed protocol and the solution I requested was not carried out. However, I urge all of you driving BMWs and enjoying your assasination of my character to think about this for a moment, you buy something and it ultimately costs you 10 times at much - How would you feel? For some the money aspect is THE reason to complain. For others its both the money AND the principal of the issue at hand. Had I purchased a 1 year subscription I wouldve saved money overall.
4. $50 or whatever some of you mention may be money spent on luxury items, but in an age when (Ill speak from experience within the country I reside in) interest rates are going up, as is petrol and general standard of living, that $50 is money better off in my pocket than M$'s, especially when it was not M$'s to take.
5. Everyone who mentioned it is indeed correct - I shouldve looked at my CC statement the following month. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, as is not having to spend a fortune travelling back to my home country and prioritising funeral arrangements. Some of you seem to enjoy attacking me because I didnt check the statement immediately, yet on the other hand you seem so frivilous with money that i cant imagine you guys doing the same.
6. I was never given a reference number after the first call. The first ended normally. It was not disconnected. I am not confused about what happened. If I ever get a copy of the recorder phone call from M$ (requested) I will happily make it available to anybody on here.
7. I have a separate active XBox Live account, so I dont think a CSR in December talked me into keeping an unused account by a different family member OPEN.
8. Im not sure how I can validate my story, short of giving you guys access to my personal info and ringing up M$ yourselves. However if anyone has a solution for this by all means Im open ears.
9. Im not a fan of PS3 gaming, however had we done this on the PSN we would not be in the same situation. Why? Because its free!

I'd like to address some people directly here:-

bbexperience - please see point 7 above. And also, if I lied and the original call had been terminated early, why would I quote that the supervisor had said this? Why would I change my mind regarding the cancellation? The account was NEVER used. Wouldnt it make more sense to just not mention that part of the story to create some form of additional sympathy towards my case? I dont blame the supervisor for yesterdays' outcome, I blame the service agent I spoke to in December for not doing his job properly. If he did we would not be here discussing it now. Despite buying that 1 month subscription, my wife NEVER used it, and Xbox confirmed that no activity has been logged on that account since its creation, 12 months ago, despite being charged for it. This is not why I expect a refund for the whole perios - I expect a refund for 4 months after the account was supposed to be cancelled.
And I havent just wandered into this forum, guns blazing. I have been a member since 2002.

mboojigga - You are correct - its quite plausable that the renew email (or a cancellation email) got lost via spam. Unlikely though, as while both emails used for the Xbox accounts are different, they are both accesible by me and set up EXACTLY the same. And Xbox confirmed yesterday that they DO NOT send out an email confirmation of a cancelled account, although they dont hesitate to send you out a renewel email. My account has always had the luxury of being renewed with a retail subscription card, which obviously after this malarky Ill always chose over online subscription.

andross77 - you seem to enjoy character assasinations on this forum dont you? One one hand you seem intelligent yet one the other you are rude and insulting. Congrats on showing us the "other" side of the AVSForum.


Guys, there isnt any agenda here on my part - I am simply disappointed that my request in December was not carried out, and it has cost me additional money, hence why I was venting yesterday. I dont want to argue with any of you, but rather than think up scenarios or make assumptions based on what little you know of me, or the situation (as some of you claim Im not telling the whole story)please feel free to ask me any questions relating to this matter.
To those who PM'd me, I thank all of you.

The bold is the whole point. The people that say you should check your CC more regularly ARE the people that DON'T check it but they are also the people that WOULDN'T come on a forum complaining about $50. They would make one call and if the guys were re-re's they would forget about it.

I apologize for the "character assassination" you accuse me of. I don't have anything against you or hate you or anything like that. I just know close people to me that have unhealthy views of money. One of them works 90 hours a week to get more and more and more (and he is ridiculously high paid) and the other is extremely stingy with it. So my friends go out to eat, order 2 large supreme pizzas, he orders two beers and some other drinks and leaves a $5 bill at the table!@!!@!

He thought he was saving some money but all he is doing is building a reputation for himself that he is stingy with his money. NO ONE likes that.

I have not once said you were in the wrong for calling Microsoft on the one half of the money. From what you said I believe you are 100% right and entitled to that.

ALLLLLLLLLL i'm trying to say is that it would be better for you, more healthy for you and you would be the winner if you just dropped it. They are idiots, so just don't deal with them again. But losing sleep over it, getting angry over it, raising your blood pressure over it, telling this story on the internet doesn't really do much for you. It's a waste of time.

Like i said before, you become the winner in the situation when you just walk away. You've learned from what happened so you can prevent it the next time. There is much more to life than greedy corporations and getting screwed out of money.

I've lost money on eBay before. But after that happened i got smart. I use Paypal exclusively now. I understand how to open complaints and keep the process moving and get back 100% of any money someone tries to scam. I know what auctions and countries to stay away from. I know how to read people's feedback. And i continue to use ebay cause i can still get some great deals there. But i let that scammer go with my money because his life is much more sad than mine. He either has to steal to get by or he's so twisted inside that he has justified such a sinful life to himself. Either way, his life sucks. That is punishment enough.

And I continue to use XBox and Live despite the issue at hand. I have disputed the charges with my CC company, only for the reason of principal. And I will make another call as promised to M$ next week, to see if they have followed through on locating the recorded call from December. Wanna guess theyre still "working on it"?

"So my friends go out to eat, order 2 large supreme pizzas, he orders two bears and some other drinks and leaves a $5 bill at the table!@!!@!"

When I order bears I usually leave at least $10.00, sorry I couldn't resist. I just wanted to lighten things up a little.

And I continue to use XBox and Live despite the issue at hand. I have disputed the charges with my CC company, only for the reason of principal. And I will make another call as promised to M$ next week, to see if they have followed through on locating the recorded call from December. Wanna guess theyre still "working on it"?

Wanna guess folks don't care?

Here's the moral of the story: When you sign up for ANYTHING ONLINE OR OVER THE PHONE WITH A CREDIT CARD, you should go in **EXPECTING** to have to follow up and triple check and make sure "Cancelled" means "Cancelled".

Its not like you are calling Bill Gates's house, you are calling some minimum wage dude working god knows where on planet earth and yes, you should probably call up once every few days, then call your credit card company and explain the problem and get all your ducks in a row.

Then, if you want live, buy the pre-paid cards.

THEN start a rant about how WalMart was advertising the cards for $40.99 and you got charged $42.97 and should you hire a lawer....
:rolleyes:

Why shouldn't he be upset? Microsoft ripped him off. And apparently they didn't give a **** when he told them. What makes anyone think they would've given a **** if he caught it earlier. This is not his fault, give me a break.

Part of this problem is that most people vastly overestimate the amount of authority most frontline customer service (and even their "supervisors") have. This sounds more like a billing inquiry then anything else. Did you ask for the billing department, or someone similar that would have the authority to resolve your problem? I know that when I worked customer service for a major alarm systems company as a "supervisor", the amount of authority I had to make decisions outside my department was effectiovely zero. In dealing with a customer that wanted to speak to a "supervisor" I was vastly knowledgable and helpful about trouble shooting systems and resolving problem within my department, but totally powerless for billing and service department issues for example.

The easy way out is to let your credit card company reverse the charges. The hard way would be for you to figure out who you need to contact within the company and try and resolve it through them. Every company has either a person or a group of people who's job is "customer retention" and they will do whatever is within their authority to try and make things right. If you ever have a major problem with any type of business, always call and ask for "customer retention" and you are probably one step closer to having your issue resolved (even if it doesn't end up being to your satisfaction).

And I continue to use XBox and Live despite the issue at hand. I have disputed the charges with my CC company, only for the reason of principal. And I will make another call as promised to M$ next week, to see if they have followed through on locating the recorded call from December. Wanna guess theyre still "working on it"?

Did you not get any type of customer service number so if ever in the future they can follow up by typing the number in? Just about every company I know does just that including MS when I had issues with my gamertag.

someone bring me up to speed, I've been away sunning myself and drinking raspberry rickeys in Cabo. So this guy got boned by MS and called 18004myxbox and got nowhere? Doesn't surprise me. You just gotta expect that you will get the run around any time you deal directly with these guys. That's just how it is. It's a huge company and they hire some donkeys for cheap.

Wow...I can't understand that if they acknowledged that you asked for cancellation and they have on record that you never used the account (which means you expected it was cancelled) why they don't just refund your money no questions asked? Seems pretty simple to me. I think I would call them and harass them every day. Every time I have problems with Verizon (Internet and phone company here- and their tech support and customer service are both HORRIBLE) I just keep calling until I find someone that actually HELPS.

7. I have a separate active XBox Live account, so I dont think a CSR in December talked me into keeping an unused account by a different family member OPEN.

I wasn't saying that's actually what happened as obviously I don't know what actually took place. I was merely proposing a theory as to why the supervisor would have had the response that he did. Having said that, wouldn't they want you to have TWO accounts to pay for? I'm sure they could concoct some excellent reasons for it.:D

bbexperience - please see point 7 above. And also, if I lied and the original call had been terminated early, why would I quote that the supervisor had said this? Why would I change my mind regarding the cancellation? The account was NEVER used. Wouldnt it make more sense to just not mention that part of the story to create some form of additional sympathy towards my case? I dont blame the supervisor for yesterdays' outcome, I blame the service agent I spoke to in December for not doing his job properly. If he did we would not be here discussing it now. Despite buying that 1 month subscription, my wife NEVER used it, and Xbox confirmed that no activity has been logged on that account since its creation, 12 months ago, despite being charged for it. This is not why I expect a refund for the whole perios - I expect a refund for 4 months after the account was supposed to be cancelled.
And I havent just wandered into this forum, guns blazing. I have been a member since 2002.

I want to clarify that despite some insinuations here and in another post, I never said that you were a liar. I said that we weren't getting the whole story. Meaning that we're not hearing from the CSR or supervisor, only from an angry end-user.

Guys, there isnt any agenda here on my part - I am simply disappointed that my request in December was not carried out, and it has cost me additional money, hence why I was venting yesterday. I dont want to argue with any of you, but rather than think up scenarios or make assumptions based on what little you know of me, or the situation (as some of you claim Im not telling the whole story)please feel free to ask me any questions relating to this matter.
To those who PM'd me, I thank all of you.

I would also like to point out that had your initial post been well thought out and written with a calmer tone like this one was, I would not have been so quick to jump on the side of the company. In your first post you started losing me when you were talking about asking for the guys name and work location and wanting to hear the original recording. You totally lost me at
This is blatant stealing from me.
That statement alone tells me that the person writing it isn't being rational about what's really happening, and it's only made worse by the previous statements.

Finally, I'd like to hear if they stopped charging you after your most recent call. Please give us that update when you can.

This is Microsoft's error. Plain and simple.

It is irrelevant that he did not check his statement.

To those who say "Why are you complaining about $50?".

I would remind you that a fool and his money are soon parted.

This is Microsoft's error. Plain and simple.

It is irrelevant that he did not check his statement.

To those who say "Why are you complaining about $50?".

I would remind you that a fool and his money are soon parted.

Well said.

Well said jedimastergrant

The force is strong with this one.

This is Microsoft's error. Plain and simple.

It is irrelevant that he did not check his statement.

To those who say "Why are you complaining about $50?".

I would remind you that a fool and his money are soon parted.

If there is a bottom line here, I think this just about sums it up.

Did you not get any type of customer service number so if ever in the future they can follow up by typing the number in? Just about every company I know does just that including MS when I had issues with my gamertag.

I was never issued with a reference number during the original call. However I was given one yesterday, which I have safely filed away. Depsite not having a reference number, they were able to bring up the original calls log very easily.

I was never issued with a reference number during the original call. However I was given one yesterday, which I have safely filed away. Depsite not having a reference number, they were able to bring up the original calls log very easily.

Cool hope it works out.

Wow. Wish I had money to just piss away. Do you light your cigars with $100 bills too?


Not a big cigar fan :) but I do manage my money a little better than to ignore my financial statements for months at a time.

The OP over-reacted to a situation in which he was significantly to blame.

The OP is at fault for failing to look at his own financial records.

Microsoft is at fault for failing to deliver on their promise.

Those people who said, "It's just $50" leave me scratching my head.

The OP over-reacted to a situation in which he was significantly to blame.

The OP is at fault for failing to look at his own financial records.

Microsoft is at fault for failing to deliver on their promise.

Those people who said, "It's just $50" leave me scratching my head.

I have no problem admitting Im guilty of not catching the CC charges quick enough, however M$ are to blame. They took money from an account they told me was cancelled. If you want me to be pedantic then I am to be blamed because I bought an Xbox in the first place, thus setting off a change of events.

And that means what? That it isn't possible for anyone else to have had a problem?

It simply means I have had no issues. I didn't say other people have not, it was simply that the process itself is not broken. As far as "that means what" the same could be said for the OP, I don't give a f**K. In the future if money is that important check your statements.

MarkH- I hope you get the issue resolved, I do sympathize. The point of my original post was that I had no problems, although it was a lengthy call I had my service cancelled. Hopefully with the call log you'll be able to get a resolution.

It simply means I have had no issues. I didn't say other people have not, it was simply that the process itself is not broken. As far as "that means what" the same could be said for the OP, I don't give a f**K. In the future if money is that important check your statements.

MarkH- I hope you get the issue resolved, I do sympathize. The point of my original post was that I had no problems, although it was a lengthy call I had my service cancelled. Hopefully with the call log you'll be able to get a resolution.

If people take anything away from this thread, at least notice what Pete mentioned (^^^ bolded): removing a credit card from a Microsoft Xbox Live account is, at best, a time consuming process.

For others, it has been very frustrating -- and the OP had an experience where customer service on Microsoft's part left a very bad impression.

Well said.

Hey you wouldn't happen to be part of Special Teamz in Boston, would you? How's Jaysaun and EdO-G these days?

Hey you wouldn't happen to be part of Special Teamz in Boston, would you?

No sir.

To the people, who say he should have checked his credit card statement that first month would that have changed the situation in any way. Do you think Microsoft customer service would have reacted differently if he would have called a month after cancelling or 4 months after cancelling. It really has no barring on what happened.

It seems to me that Microsoft is going out of its way to make it difficult for a customer to cancel their account. I wouldnt say they are AOL bad on this yet but seems like things are definetly headed that way.

Do you have to have a mountain of evidence in front of you like the RROD issue before we can admit that Microsoft has some serious customer service issues.

To the people, who say he should have checked his credit card statement that first month would that have changed the situation in any way

Possibly. They wouldn't have had 4 months of phone calls he is trying to search for vs 1.

Do you think Microsoft customer service would have reacted differently if he would have called a month after cancelling or 4 months after cancelling. It really has no barring on what happened

Actually it would have only been 10$ vs 50$ and possibly no thread about this very discussion. But since it is here I know anyone who reads through this thread can take what happen in this situation and learn how to handle this in a everyday situation with companies. Not just MS.

"So my friends go out to eat, order 2 large supreme pizzas, he orders two bears and some other drinks and leaves a $5 bill at the table!@!!@!"

When I order bears I usually leave at least $10.00, sorry I couldn't resist. I just wanted to lighten things up a little.

damn you and damn my grammar mistake. but at least i know you're hanging on my very words...:)

This is Microsoft's error. Plain and simple.

It is irrelevant that he did not check his statement.

To those who say "Why are you complaining about $50?".

I would remind you that a fool and his money are soon parted.

so you just called the OP a fool....

not getting bent out of shape and wasting cell phone minutes, hours of your time, etc, etc is not being a fool. It's being wise and understanding life isn't always fair and $50 is NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.

To the people, who say he should have checked his credit card statement that first month would that have changed the situation in any way.


Absolutely
He would have caught it, called his CC to dispute and been out zero money.
It's kind of hard to dispute charges you let ride for 4 months.

...It's being wise and understanding life isn't always fair and $50 is NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.

LMAO! Life's not fair...lose your $50 and like it. At least you're not dead today.

In the grand scheme of life, $50 is nothing. In the grand scheme of the moment (which people also happen to live in), it could be something or everything. No matter how anal someone is or isn't about keeping their finances in order, no one wants to lose money no matter how little it is...period.

To the people, who say he should have checked his credit card statement that first month would that have changed the situation in any way. Do you think Microsoft customer service would have reacted differently if he would have called a month after cancelling or 4 months after cancelling.
Yep. After 4 months, MS is thinking, "If cancelling his account was so important to him, why did he wait four months to call us about it?" 4 months to catch a mistake would make any company raise an eyebrow. 1 month wouldn't because it's the next immediate billing cycle.

LOL at all this talk of character assasination and all that. Nobody's doing that. The OP didn't get as much sympathy as he thought he would, and he didn't convince AVSforum to overthrow/boycott Microsoft. Nothing more to see here, back to the business of talking about video games.

There must be some good reason that Microsoft makes it so difficult to cancel accounts and such. Perhaps "thieves" is a bit strong but I think they are counting on clients not being too vigilant regarding their accounts to extract extra revenue.

I have 2 Live accounts coming due (my sons) and the credit card number has changed. It should be interesting to see if the charge is applied anyway. One of them I don't want renewed and was going to go the gift card route with the other given this thread and many others like it.

they screwed me out of 2 months worth as well, even after more then one call to cancel. The auto renew thing is horrible, mind you it is no different then say a cable,phone bill etc. My gripe is no online method to cancel it and having to deal with 60 min phone calls and achmed on the other end....achmed....lol.

I kill you! ref to Jeff Dunham if nobody knows what I'm talking about...sorry. Youtube achmed the terrorist

Call me crazy but I'd just call the CC company and tell them MS stole my CC number and I need it changed and the charges reversed.

**disclaimer***I didn't read thru the whole thread so this has most likely already been posted**

It raises a very important point about large companies such as Microsoft being in an arrogant position to bend the rules the way they see them, and steal from honest folk.

1. Call your credit card company and tell them what you told us. Clear Mr. Bucharmanagana (or "Jim") at MS customer no-service doesn't have the time of day for you.

2. This isn't a larger issue than MS dealing with kids and scam artists all the time. I'm sure they have concerns about the four-month span of time but, regardless, the CC company will be more interested than they are I'm sure.