What's up guys, not sure if it's the right section, if not I'm sorry. So I heard that in 2009 all TV channels will be broadcasted digitally. I have comcast now, the cable plugs directly into the TV without any boxes. All my TV's have QAM tuners built-in, so ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC and some other channels are digital and in HD. I'm wondering how this will change for other channels in 2009 like Spike, FX, Discovery, etc. They are now broadcasted in analog 4:3 which sucks. It would be awesome if they would broadcast them at least in 480p, still better than analog.

The transition only applies to stations broadcasting over the air. It has no bearing on Discovery, ESPN, etc. Also, cable companies can continue to broadcast analog signals for up to 3 years after the transition as I understand it.

480p is not required for digital OTA in any event. 480i is sufficient and is more widely used, especially when sub-channels are taken into account.

If any of your TVs have a CableCard slot, you have nothing to worry about. When analog does go away from your system, you will need either a CableCard for your TV (if it does have a slot) or an STB.

Biker19 and egnlsn, I'm sorry but you have been misinformed, just like millions of other people out there.

Like Falcon_77 said the February switch is only for stations that are broadcast over the air and received by an antenna. It does not affect cable or satellite TV customers. I believe that Congress has told the cable companies to continue sending out analog stations until 2012. After that point you will need a TV or cable box with a QAM tuner. Hopefully by then the Tru-2-Way stuff will be solidified and available (that is the 2 way QAM tuner that will allow your TV or cable box to get the guide info, and watch Pay Per View/On Demand stuff).

Satellite subscribers will not be affected in any way by this switch. All of their channels are already broadcast digitally, and you already have to have their boxes to receive the channels. Some satellite providers are changing their compression strategies, which means their customers will have to replace their receivers but this has nothing to do with the Analog cut-off in February (DirecTV is switching from Mpeg2 to Mpeg4 so they can fit more channels on their existing satellites).

Biker19 and egnlsn, I'm sorry but you have been misinformed, just like millions of other people out there.
Sorry, Beerstalker, but no misinformation here. I didn't really think that I needed to reiterate what you had already said about the mandate applying to OTA only.

Cable systems are required to continue the analog transmissions of any must-carry channels on their systems for 3 years after 2/2009, but that is it. The exception to that is if a system is all digital prior to that date.

The OP's cable system will, most likely, end all analog transmissions at some point in time. If you re-read my post, you will, in the 2nd sentence, read: "When analog does go away from your system..." It's gonna happen at some time.

Biker knows the details of the DTV transition as well.

I was under the impression part of the reason they were going over to switched digital video was so they could continue to support analog tuners while increasing their number of hi-def and digital channels. To me that would mean they are planning on keeping their analog customers happy for quite a while. I think cable would lose a ton of customers to satellite, or free over the air if the switch to digital transmissions only and expect everyone to rent/buy a box for each tv. I did not realize the 3 year carry was only for local stations, thank you for informing me of that.

I am sorry if I offended you, but it sounded to me like you were saying all of his channels would be gone, I guess I was wrong:)

Cable CAN (and probably WILL) move all the "cable" channels to digital cable eventually - depending on your local area as to when that will happen. Cable will also be providing your locals in analog OR providing a free cable box to enable you to receive the LOCAL broadcast channels. This does NOT mean that the same box will be used for their cable channels, but it doesn't rule it out either.

In the future, expect to need a box from the cable company for every TV that you want "individual channels" on. Cable Card devices might be one way around this.

If the cable company would send all expanded basic channels in clear QAM, then a digital tv with QAM would be able to receive them without a box. Unfortunately most if not all cable companies will scramble (aka encrypt) all digital channels above the limited basic tier. That means that even if you have a QAM digital tv, you will still have to rent their freaking box! This totally sucks!

I was under the impression part of the reason they were going over to switched digital video was so they could continue to support analog tuners while increasing their number of hi-def and digital channels. To me that would mean they are planning on keeping their analog customers happy for quite a while. I think cable would lose a ton of customers to satellite, or free over the air if the switch to digital transmissions only and expect everyone to rent/buy a box for each tv. I did not realize the 3 year carry was only for local stations, thank you for informing me of that.

I am sorry if I offended you, but it sounded to me like you were saying all of his channels would be gone, I guess I was wrong:)
Oh, no offense was ever taken.

I agree that it would be dumb for cable companies to force all of their subscribers to rent boxes at this time. SDV will help quite a bit, but I wouldn't be surprised to see all analog, with the exception of limited basic, go by the wayside within the next couple of years. I think it would behoove them to keep, say, 20 or 25 analog channels for several years to come. Maybe even ADS that channel lineup, QAM being unencrypted. That way, if a limited basic sub gets a new TV set, they can just hook it up as is and continue watching TV with no interruption or box rental.

But, that's just my opinion... :D

Are the mods deleting posts willy-nilly. I don't know what happened to mine.

Anyway, it doesn't take a genius to figure what will happen to cable TV. Just look at FIOS - that will be the model going forward. A limited, mostly locals, lineup in clear QAM and everything else scrambled. The only question is when you'll lose the analogs. For FIOS it's today, for most other cable cos a few years. But the analog chs in most cable co's expanded lineup could go at any time - the 09 transition is a very convenient time for the cable cos to pull the plug on the expanded analogs. Only the well informed folks will know that they're doing it for selfish reasons and not because of a mandate. So back to the OP's issue - those chs will go away quite soon and you'll never see them again without an STB.

As alluded to in several posts, the general idea is Feb 2009 has little to do with the cable companies. They can continue to insert analog into their system to their hearts content. Hell, they could insert apple pie into their system if tv's could display it. The point is, Feb 2009 applies to over the air broadcast only and doesn't mandate anything for cable companies.

The one thing it does change for cable companies however is alters their priorities for subscribers. The loss of analog OTA will undoubtedly start a priority shift for cable companies to taper it off as a service offering. Several companies have already come forward and made public their commitment to their analog customers however. Cox Communications Arizona, for instance, stated in an article that they will offer a fair variety of channels in analog for at least the next two years.

Cox Communications Arizona, for instance, stated in an article that they will offer a fair variety of channels in analog for at least the next two years.

While Cox in NoVA won't.:cool:

Cableco's seem to be in a fact finding mode right now from stations on what stations plan to do to provide any "analog" signal post transition. Many cableco's appear to be pushing an idea to have the stations provide a 4:3 fiber feed or a SD subchannel to make it easy for the cablecos. Some stations will, others won't. Looks like it will depend on the station and how bad they want to continue to offer two separate feeds. It is going to take both parties to get a "analog" signal for those who do not have anything but a 4:3 analog set connected to the cableco.

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I felt it better than starting a new one and I wanted to clarify the answer (since the previous posts had quite a bit of back-and-forth).

I currently get basic cable from Comcast in Chicago.
I don't have any boxes. In fact, the reason I get basic cable from them is because I get Internet Service, which automatically causes you to get their basic cable stream.

So my TVs are plugged directly into the co-ax and I get all the local and basic cable channels (e.g. TBS).

Chances are I will be upgrading to a better cable package later next year, but until then I want to understand why I do or do not need a DTV conversion box.

Most of the talk seems to say that if I don't use rabbit-ears, then I am ok. But I would like to verify this and have a clear explanation.

thanks!

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I felt it better than starting a new one and I wanted to clarify the answer (since the previous posts had quite a bit of back-and-forth).

I currently get basic cable from Comcast in Chicago.
I don't have any boxes. In fact, the reason I get basic cable from them is because I get Internet Service, which automatically causes you to get their basic cable stream.

So my TVs are plugged directly into the co-ax and I get all the local and basic cable channels (e.g. TBS).

Chances are I will be upgrading to a better cable package later next year, but until then I want to understand why I do or do not need a DTV conversion box.

Most of the talk seems to say that if I don't use rabbit-ears, then I am ok. But I would like to verify this and have a clear explanation.

thanks!
The DTV transition in 2009 is OTA only. It does not, in and of itself, apply to either CATV or satellite services.

Comast in Chicago was the first system in the U.S. to go all digital. The Settop Box (STB) used by cable TV companies is merely a QAM tuner with the ability to un-encrypt channels that are encrypted by the cable company (along with some other features).

Most TV sets made nowadays have a QAM tuner built in. While it doesn't have the capability to un-encrypt, it still has a QAM tuner. Anything that the cable company sends out un-encrypted (commonly called Clear QAM) can be received and displayed by a QAM tuner. In some areas, such as mine, only the Limited Basic package is in the clear. Others, such as yours, have the Expanded Basic package in the clear. That way, people who have recently made TV sets don't have to rent a box to get what they have been getting for years.

There is also a thing called CableCard that is built into many newer TV sets. CableCards are addressable and give the TV set much of the same functionality as a STB.

The DTV transition in 2009 is OTA only. It does not, in and of itself, apply to either CATV or satellite services.

Comast in Chicago was the first system in the U.S. to go all digital. The Settop Box (STB) used by cable TV companies is merely a QAM tuner with the ability to un-encrypt channels that are encrypted by the cable company (along with some other features).

Most TV sets made nowadays have a QAM tuner built in. ...


Thanks for the reply. Just to confirm, I do NOT use a STB. Coax goes from wall to TV. Also, I am 90% sure my TVs have no QAM tuners built-in, as they are 10 years old.

So, I don't believe my signal is coming QAM...if I have no tuner built-in and no STB. Can you elaborate?

thanks!

In almost every location if you are using cable and do not have an antenna you have nothing to do worry about...
Many cable companies are transmitting channels 2-67 in both analog and digital and some in only digital. If your cable company is one of the few that will be transmitting in only digital it will offer you a low cost recievers ( I have seen prices of $2.95 a month for this) for each tv.

Comcast will continue telling you you need to do nothing becasue "they have you covered"...and that's true for the DTV conversion in Feb 2009. However be aware Comcast has begun a program to migrate all of their systems from Analog to Digital which will almost certainly require you to get a set top box (STB). I thought that they had already converted Chciago proper to digital within the last year except for a few of the basic OTA channels that I believe they are required to carry through 2012, although it's not mandated whether they carry them via analog or via a STB. Ideally, they would continue to send the QAM channels unencrypted that they send unencryped over analog now, but I doubt they will be so cusntomer friendly.

Comcast will continue telling you you need to do nothing becasue "they have you covered"...and that's true for the DTV conversion in Feb 2009. However be aware Comcast has begun a program to migrate all of their systems from Analog to Digital which will almost certainly require you to get a set top box (STB). I thought that they had already converted Chciago proper to digital within the last year except for a few of the basic OTA channels that I believe they are required to carry through 2012, although it's not mandated whether they carry them via analog or via a STB. Ideally, they would continue to send the QAM channels unencrypted that they send unencryped over analog now, but I doubt they will be so customer friendly. I agree with your points. The Analog to Digital migration improves Comcast's network efficiency, since they can cram six to ten SD digital channels into the bandwidth used by one SD analog channel.

In markets where they are planning a mass A-to-D migration, Comcast will probably need (for political reasons related to contract compliance with franchise authorities) to provide households with at least one "free" digital cable box. Those "free" boxes would be basic SD-only units like the Motorola DCT-700. Viewers seeking HD content will be "forced" to pay inflated monthly fees for HD cable boxes, as Comcast and its peers encrypt anything other than the SD versions of local OTA channels.

Part of the issue is that I do not pay for cable TV services from Comcast. That is one of the reasons I don't have thier box.

I am not "hacking" into free service, it just so happens that if you get Internet from them, when they "turn on" your service, that you also get basic cable in through your coax. I even mentioned this to the install tech at one point and he was like "yeah, you'll get that automatically."

So, I can't just pay for a STB monthly fee because then I would also have to pay the $25 a month or whatever to be "officially" on their service.

From everything I am hearing though, I should be ok without a converter box, at least for a couple of years.

My question would be though if indeed the channels did stop coming when 2/09 rolls around, can I plug a converter box between the wall and my TV and will it work?

$25 won't get you much in Comcast land except maybe the most basic of the OTA channels, otherwise expect to pay $60+ with probably another rate increase early 2009.

No, you can't use a CECB between the Comcast jack and your TV. The CECBs take an OTA digital ATSC signal and convert it to analog NTSC. The CECB will not now how to understand the QAM or other cable signals. THere may be some other receivers that include NTSC, ATSC and QAM, but it does you no good if the cable company encrypts the QAM channels. You need one of their STBs or something with cablecards, like a Tivo, to get the programming.

Recognize that you cable company does not do anything to restrict the signal coming out of your wall outlet to analog only, digital only or both. The cable always includes basic analog and basic unencrypted QAM digital signals. The cable companies try very hard to make you think differently.
You only need or can use a converter box if you currently receive TV from an antenna.

Ok thanks for that.

I guess that I will just wait and hope that they still decide to broadcast the current channels after 2/09 and that I will continue to get them over coax.

If not, I will have to bite the bullet and actually pay for cable.

I do think that they still offer basic cable packages for under $30... but if I get service (from them or a sat provider) I will probably go all out with DVR and movie channels.

I've just been putting off paying for cable until I have my A/V setup all complete. I finally mounted my projecter and screen in my new place and still need to buy my audio equipment. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll have it all done by february anyway and won't have to worry.

thanks for all the info.

Bengalih:

If you can borrow a TV with a QAM tuner, see what you get.  Maybe a friend owns a portable one.

In Chicago Area 2, Comcast's unencrypted QAM channels include the local broadcast stations and most of their subchannels, plus public access channels, CLTV, MSNBC, C-SPAN1, C-SPAN2, TBS, some of Comcast's marketplace channels, and an assortment of miscellany.

Here is a copy of a post I made in another Thread about a week ago.

My understanding is that the FCC allows the Cable Cos to eliminate their analog service as long as they provide means for customers to continue viewing the local channels on their analog sets. Unfortunately they do not have to provide the STBs for free but can charge for them. I have COX who is claiming that they will continue to provide analog channels until 2012. I have sets and my 3576 which rely on the analog channels in addition to the clear QAM channels. I expect COX to continue to eliminate premium analog channels to add more DTV.

From Wajo's post below:
Link - http://www.dtv.gov/consumercorner.html#faq25

Will cable customers with analog TVs have to buy or rent a set-top box from their cable company? If so, how much will it cost?

First, it's important to know that the February 17, 2009 deadline for the digital television transition only applies to full-power broadcast stations. Cable companies are not required by the government to transition their systems to digital, and can continue to deliver channels to their customers in analog. Cable companies are actually required by FCC rules to continue offering local broadcast stations to their customers in analog as long as they offer any analog service. This requirement will continue for at least three years after February 17, 2009. The Commission will decide in 2011 whether the requirement should be continued beyond February 17, 2012. This means that customers who receive analog cable service (without a cable set-top box) will be able to continue to do so.


However, for business reasons (among other things, digital is much more efficient than analog), cable companies may be interested in transitioning their systems from analog delivery to digital delivery. If a cable company makes the business decision to go all-digital (meaning it will stop offering any channels to its customers in analog), it must ensure that its analog customers can continue to watch their local broadcast stations. This may require customers with analog televisions to get a set-top box. If the cable company provides the customer with a set-top box, any costs related to it will be determined by the cable company. Therefore, it is recommended that analog cable customers contact their cable company to ask if a set-top box will be needed, when it will be needed, and if there will be a cost.


It is also important to note that a cable set-top box is different from a digital-to-analog converter box. A digital-to-analog converter box is necessary only for analog televisions that receive their programming over-the-air using a rooftop antenna or "rabbit ears" connected to the set. A digital-to-analog converter box is not necessary for a TV connected to a paid television service such as a cable or satellite TV provider. Information on any set-top boxes needed for a paid service such as cable or satellite should be obtained from the service provider.

Cox Communications Arizona, for instance, stated in an article that they will offer a fair variety of channels in analog for at least the next two years.


While Cox in NoVA won't.:cool:

TWC Will not be changing ANY analog programming.



Also, some people are starting to touch base on cable cards but one thing that most fail to realize is that they are still only a 1 way device, thus eliminating the ability to watch any ondemand, ppv, or sdv(mostly premium/hd) channels so don't waist your time.:cool:

Comast in Chicago was the first system in the U.S. to go all digital.
Comcast in Calaveras County, CA was the first Comcast system to go Digital-only Expd. Basic in the U.S., ~3 years ago; Comcast in Chicago was second, ~1.25 years ago. I am not aware of any other MSOs preceeding them or if any have gone Digital-only; I doubt the latter.

Cable & DTV transition is a different issue than what should be discussed in this thread. Please keep on topic.

Tomorrow in Houston several locals are conducting a 5 minute test to let viewers know if they are DTV-ready. Basically, if you are not ready, you see a message telling you so. Presumably you see something else if you are ready.

So what's happening that allows the analog signal to be broadcast simultaneously with a digital signal? I thought they were going to use the same frequencies and the choice was either/or, not both. And what tells the digital tuner to read the digital signal and ignore the analog?

Most over-the-air broadcast stations are currently operating two transmitters, one analog and one digital, on separate channels (frequencies). For example, my nearest CBS station sends analog on channel 7 (the one it's been known by for decades), and digital on channel 53 (although it still says "channel 7" on screen).

Normally they send the exact same programming to both transmitters (in different resolutions of course). For these "DTV tests" they either shut off the signal to the analog transmitter, or (more likely) send a picture of simulated "snow" overlaid with a graphical message to the analog transmitter (but not to the digital transmitter).

For these "DTV tests" they either shut off the signal to the analog transmitter, or (more likely) send a picture of simulated "snow" overlaid with a graphical message to the analog transmitter (but not to the digital transmitter).During the tests in Chicago on November 12, the analog transmissions on full-power stations didn't show snow; they were of a still frame with no audio, stating that the television had failed the test and where to get more information.  Meanwhile, the digital counterparts carried regular programming, many of them also running a crawl saying that the television had passed the test.

Normally these DTV tests consist of splitting the programming from the analog and digital transmitters where the digital transmitter will have a message that says you are DTV ready and the analog will say you are not DTV ready. The FCC has been asking for a national "roadblock" meaning they want ALL stations to do a DTV test at the same time on all stations in the US, except Wilmington, NC since they have already converted, so no matter what station you tune to, you see the message, but it is too unwielding so the FCC is trying to do it state by state and is having better luck with it. North Carolina is to roadblock Dec 17th at 6:27pm for 2 minutes.

Normally these DTV tests consist of splitting the programming from the analog and digital transmitters where the digital transmitter will have a message that says you are DTV ready and the analog will say you are not DTV ready. The FCC has been asking for a national "roadblock" meaning they want ALL stations to do a DTV test at the same time on all stations in the US, except Wilmington, NC since they have already converted, so no matter what station you tune to, you see the message, but it is too unwielding so the FCC is trying to do it state by state and is having better luck with it. North Carolina is to roadblock Dec 17th at 6:25pm for 5 minutes.

I was wondering when the next one was going to happen. Thanks.

I was wondering when the next one was going to happen. Thanks.

The FCC changed it to 2 minutes at 6:27.

We must have the dumbest cable company on earth. Suddenlink provides Houston local channels to cable subscribers in Montgomery county, TX. Well, today, the Houston broadcast channels conducted their DTV tests and guess what, SuddenLink simply broadcast the analog OTA signal to their subscribers.

Every little old lady in the county is probably calling them right now to complain. One of them has already called me. :D

Normally these DTV tests consist of splitting the programming from the analog and digital transmitters where the digital transmitter will have a message that says you are DTV ready and the analog will say you are not DTV ready. The FCC has been asking for a national "roadblock" meaning they want ALL stations to do a DTV test at the same time on all stations in the US, except Wilmington, NC since they have already converted, so no matter what station you tune to, you see the message, but it is too unwielding so the FCC is trying to do it state by state and is having better luck with it. North Carolina is to roadblock Dec 17th at 6:27pm for 2 minutes.

Foxeng -

I realize this a readiness test and not a reception quality test but wouldn't the mere presence of the still broadcast analog signals provide interfence a bit? Or don't they care about that part for now?

- Tom

We must have the dumbest cable company on earth. Suddenlink provides Houston local channels to cable subscribers in Montgomery county, TX. Well, today, the Houston broadcast channels conducted their DTV tests and guess what, SuddenLink simply broadcast the analog OTA signal to their subscribers.

Every little old lady in the county is probably calling them right now to complain. One of them has already called me. :D

Given what happened it sounds like the little old ladies have every right to worry that their cable picture will go away along with analog OTA, at least briefly. ;)

- Tom

Given what happened it sounds like the little old ladies have every right to worry that their cable picture will go away along with analog OTA, at least briefly. ;)

- Tom

I 100% agree - the best way to get Suddenlink moving is to show all the bluehairs that they are about to lose Oprah and their soaps :D

We must have the dumbest cable company on earth. Suddenlink provides Houston local channels to cable subscribers in Montgomery county, TX. Well, today, the Houston broadcast channels conducted their DTV tests and guess what, SuddenLink simply broadcast the analog OTA signal to their subscribers.Suddenlink is just in a multi-way tie for dumbest.  It seems that for all of these tests, cable and satellite companies are caught with their pants down, delivering the local stations’ analog content and thus telling their customers that their TVs are not ready.

You'd think by now that the cable and satellite providers would have switched their sources over for local full-power stations in SD, but it seems that they're waiting for 11:59:59 PM on February 17 and that their planning and testing consists of having decided to cross their fingers and close their eyes and wish really really hard that everything will go right.

Suddenlink is just in a multi-way tie for dumbest.* It seems that for all of these tests, cable and satellite companies are caught with their pants down, delivering the local stations’ analog content and thus telling their customers that their TVs are not ready.

You'd think by now that the cable and satellite providers would have switched their sources over for local full-power stations in SD, but it seems that they're waiting for 11:59:59 PM on February 17 and that their planning and testing consists of having decided to cross their fingers and close their eyes and wish really really hard that everything will go right.

No, there is a published schedule for each of the sat providers saying when they will start using the digital signals in each city http://mstv.org/docs/satschedalpha.pdf. In general it seems that they have followed this schedule, although in some cities they are late and in others there are one or two stations where for whatever reason they are still using the analog signal.

Foxeng -

I realize this a readiness test and not a reception quality test but wouldn't the mere presence of the still broadcast analog signals provide interfence a bit? Or don't they care about that part for now?

- Tom

The problem is everyone is not on their final channels and some stations aren't completed with their final allocations, particularly if they are moving back to their analog channels and yes, that would cause undue interference that the FCC will not tolerate, even for a few minutes. Just the way they do things in Washington. :rolleyes:

No, there is a published schedule for each of the sat providers saying when they will start using the digital signals in each city http://mstv.org/docs/satschedalpha.pdf.Thanks, TB, that's good to know (for satellite customers).

I don't suppose it's reasonable to hope that cable providers have a similar schedule out there.

During Chicago's tests I was watching only the OTA signals; it was only later that I read posts on AVSForum about satellite or cable providers who are still using the analog feed for the locals and therefore displayed the failure message to their customers.

I'm with Suddenlink. As many of you are aware, one aspect of the ongoing preparations for the national cutover to digital broadcasting on February 17, 2009, are these TV station tests around the country, in which the stations cut off their analog signals and transmit only their digital signals — usually for a few minutes at a time. Suddenlink engineers are aware of these tests, are monitoring them and actively working with TV station engineers to address any issues that result.

What's more: Suddenlink engineers are on schedule to have all company facilities completely ready for the Feb. 17 transition in the next several weeks. In fact, the vast majority of our systems are ready now and most of our systems in the greater Houston area were ready when last week's test was conducted, with a handful of exceptions. Again, those that weren't ready -- that hadn't yet received shipments of all required equipment by last week's test -- should have that equipment in hand and installed well before Feb. 17.

Net: By Feb. 17, customer sets hooked up to our cable service should continue to work just fine. That's our commitment and we will honor it. Please check here (http://suddenlinkfyi.com/misc-topics/dtv/) for more info. Or, if you have questions for me, since I don't regularly check this forum, please email me at pete.abel@suddenlink.com. Thanks.