While not many folks viewing the results of the shoot-out will be in the market for/or have access to a new 5010, some folks who already have the 5010 may be interested to learn how much of a difference there is between last year's model and this year's in order to inform whether it's worth their while to consider an upgrade. Including it offers one benchmark to show how the 9G has improved over the 8G.

Yes. It repersents a point of reference, and all the pro reviews of Pioneer's 2008 press event used it as such.

Thank you. You have just confirmed why Vizio got no love. :D :D :D

DvD upscaled on a vizio for the haters. :)



http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7222/55410951qo7.jpg

While not many folks viewing the results of the shoot-out will be in the market for/or have access to a new 5010, some folks who already have the 5010 may be interested to learn how much of a difference there is between last year's model and this year's in order to inform whether it's worth their while to consider an upgrade. Including it offers one benchmark to show how the 9G has improved over the 8G.

Yes, but there's very limited room, and this could easily become a Pio-only shootout!

Personally, I really want to see other plasmas in there. Pios are a LOT more money than other reputable brands. Are the Pios really 30% to 100+% better,
or only 2% better??

DvD upscaled on a vizio for the haters. :)



http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7222/55410951qo7.jpg


Is that supposed to be impressive?


Cause its not....

It's only dvd. Imagine bluray?

It's only dvd. Imagine bluray?

What does that mean? Are you asking people to be impressed by your imagination, or do you have a fantastic bluray image that you have decided not to share?:)

That's a great idea: the best LCD(s) vs the best plasma(s) as a second round. In the first round though, it just seems like apples vs oranges.

I'd love to see the samsung a650 and lg pg60 in there vs the Pios and Panny, and those seem more important to me than any LCD, at least initially.

Whatever models you choose, if you can get real life power readings on similar sized units playing the same material, you will really be doing the world a huge service. (Kill-a-watt meters can be had for ~$20.)

Bless you Robert for setting this up. I can hardly wait to see the results.

The main shoot-out wall is limited to 6 50" - 52" panels. So for now we're looking at; 5010FD, 111FD, Panasonic 50PZ800 or 850, LG600, Samsung A750 and Toshiba's 550.

Help me decide on the final models as I need to get the wall set-up by next week.

-Robert

The main shoot-out wall is limited to 6 50" - 52" panels. So for now we're looking at; 5010FD, 111FD, Panasonic 50PZ800 or 850, LG600, Samsung A750 and Toshiba's 550.

Help me decide on the final models as I need to get the wall set-up by next week.

-Robert

I'd eliminate the LCD, and replace the 5010 with a 5020 (again, while it may be interesting to know whether the 5010 stacks up well to the 5020 for current owners of the 5010, I think it would be more interesting to see how current generations from various manufacturers stack up to each other).

If the Samsung 750 is the LCD model (not the 750 plasma as I'm not sure it's out?), I'd replace that with a 650 or 550 plasma.

If you're going with an Elite model, I say go with the Panny 850 as it would have more user adjustments than the 800 and be "more" comparable.

So basically all Plasmas:

Pio 5020
Pio Elite 50"
Panny 850 (or 800 if the 850 can't be attained)
Samsung 650 (or 550) plasma
LG600

Add whatever is considered a "top" LCD to round out the 6th (the Sammy 750 or Toshiba model I guess).

I'd eliminate the LCD, and replace the 5010 with a 5020 (again, while it may be interesting to know whether the 5010 stacks up well to the 5020 for current owners of the 5010, I think it would be more interesting to see how current generations from various manufacturers stack up to each other).

If the Samsung 750 is the LCD model (not the 750 plasma as I'm not sure it's out?), I'd replace that with a 650 or 550 plasma.

If you're going with an Elite model, I say go with the Panny 850 as it would have more user adjustments than the 800 and be "more" comparable.

So basically all Plasmas:

Pio 5020
Pio Elite 50"
Panny 850 (or 800 if the 850 can't be attained)
Samsung 650 (or 550) plasma
LG600

Add whatever is considered a "top" LCD to round out the 6th (the Sammy 750 or Toshiba model I guess).

The Panasonic 800u seems to be better reviewed than the 850. Superior color accuracy.

The main shoot-out wall is limited to 6 50" - 52" panels. So for now we're looking at; 5010FD, 111FD, Panasonic 50PZ800 or 850, LG600, Samsung A750 and Toshiba's 550.

Help me decide on the final models as I need to get the wall set-up by next week.

-Robert

I think that line looks great. I'd like to see the 2 LCD's stay, as they are the best reviewed models here.

DvD upscaled on a vizio for the haters. :)



http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7222/55410951qo7.jpg

Looking forward to the results from the shootout. Here is an upconverted DVD shot. Upconverted by the Pio 94TXH to the PRO 150FD.
Just giving a thumbs up for the PIO 150. :)
This set has yet to disapoint me.

http://eddiscus.smugmug.com/photos/324434226_vo5nJ-XL.jpg

I'd eliminate the LCD, and replace the 5010 with a 5020 (again, while it may be interesting to know whether the 5010 stacks up well to the 5020 for current owners of the 5010, I think it would be more interesting to see how current generations from various manufacturers stack up to each other).

If the Samsung 750 is the LCD model (not the 750 plasma as I'm not sure it's out?), I'd replace that with a 650 or 550 plasma.

If you're going with an Elite model, I say go with the Panny 850 as it would have more user adjustments than the 800 and be "more" comparable.

So basically all Plasmas:

Pio 5020
Pio Elite 50"
Panny 850 (or 800 if the 850 can't be attained)
Samsung 650 (or 550) plasma
LG600

Add whatever is considered a "top" LCD to round out the 6th (the Sammy 750 or Toshiba model I guess).

Good list, definitely the Samsung 650 rather than the 550 (better anti-glare). I strongly agree about the 5020 rather than the 5010 -- this should be about current models; there have already been lots of reviews about the 5010s and they soon won't be available.

I don't know what the LG600 is; or is that the LG PG60?? :confused:

Good list, definitely the Samsung 650 rather than the 550 (better anti-glare). I strongly agree about the 5020 rather than the 5010 -- this should be about current models; there have already been lots of reviews about the 5010s and they soon won't be available.


Agreed!

At BB yesterday, I saw the 5010 on sale—clearance, actually—at a compelling price. That makes the shootout result more important for me. I don't know how many BB has in stock, but the possibility of saving that much money and getting a very good TV is difficult to ignore. I will therefore look forward to seeing BOTH 5010 and 5020 compared under controlled circumstances.

In case anyone's interested, Ultimate AV has a review of the 52" Samsung 750 LCD set: http://www.ultimateavmag.com/

Good list, definitely the Samsung 650 rather than the 550 (better anti-glare). I strongly agree about the 5020 rather than the 5010 -- this should be about current models; there have already been lots of reviews about the 5010s and they soon won't be available.

I don't know what the LG600 is; or is that the LG PG60?? :confused:

I agree it should be about current models. For that reason I would like to see the top of the line Panasonic (850) rather than the 800.

Ed

I agree it should be about current models. For that reason I would like to see the top of the line Panasonic (850) rather than the 800.

Ed

Since Panny's seem to be considered just behind Pio around here, it could make sense to include both Panny models. That is, the best two Pio's vs the best two Panny's vs the best one from each of Samsung and LG, the latter, I think, rounding out the top plasma companies. I'm not sure how Sharp compares in the mix; they seem to be bigger in LCD.

I'd still like to see a best plasma vs best lcd comparison as round two. If that's not possible, then maybe the very best lcd (which is what?) instead of one of the panny's. Or of course there's the whole Pio Sig question...

So my list is:

Pioneer 111fd
Pioneer 5020
Panasonic 850
Panasonic 800 (or the top LCD, or a Pio sig)
Samsung a650 plasma
LG 50pg60

Robert, I think you need a bigger wall :-)

My list would be:

Pioneer 111FD
Pioneer 5020FD
Panasonic 50PZ850u (Digital Cinema Color)
Panasonic 50PZ800u (THX mode)
Samsung a750
LG 50pg60

My list would be:

Pioneer 111FD
Pioneer 5020FD
Panasonic 50PZ850u (Digital Cinema Color)
Panasonic 50PZ800u (THX mode)
Samsung a750
LG 50pg60

+1

+1

More is better, but if only 6 can make it, this is an excellent representation. I'd love to see last year's great Pioneer, also, as a comparison of the (hopefully) incremental increases in performance by all this year.

My list would be:

Pioneer 111FD
Pioneer 5020FD
Panasonic 50PZ850u (Digital Cinema Color)
Panasonic 50PZ800u (THX mode)
Samsung a750
LG 50pg60


+2. This seems like the perfect lineup to me.

My list would be:

Pioneer 111FD
Pioneer 5020FD
Panasonic 50PZ850u (Digital Cinema Color)
Panasonic 50PZ800u (THX mode)
Samsung a750
LG 50pg60


I think the Samsung 750 is an LCD, yes? You'd choose that instead of their top-of-the-line plasma?

Sure would be nice to get a samsung plasma in there somewhere.
Really Robert, this is too hard. You DO need a bigger wall!! :)

Perhaps someone at the shoot-out will define what "away from air conditioners" on page 15 of the 5020 manual means in real-world terms. How far away? I have only one placement option, about 11.5 ft. away diagonally from my a/c (11,000 BTUs). That should be enough, but I'll want to hear it from someone knowledgeable on this.

My list would be:

Pioneer 111FD
Pioneer 5020FD
Panasonic 50PZ850u (Digital Cinema Color)
Panasonic 50PZ800u (THX mode)
Samsung a750
LG 50pg60


This list is perfect for me. It covers all of the display's on my "choices" list. I'm really glad to both Pany's on the list.

I say delete 1 Panasonic and add the Toshiba 550 back in the line up.


* Pioneer 111FD
* Pioneer 5020FD
* Panasonic 50PZ850u or 800u
* Toshiba 550
* Samsung a750
* LG 50pg60

I think Value electronics probably sells a lot of the Tosiba 550's.

Would like to have seen a 8G vs 9G shoot out in regards to SD
performance.

I say delete 1 Panasonic and add the Toshiba 550 back in the line up.


* Pioneer 111FD
* Pioneer 5020FD
* Panasonic 50PZ850u or 800u
* Toshiba 550
* Samsung a750
* LG 50pg60

I think Value electronics probably sells a lot of the Tosiba 550's.

Would like to have seen a 8G vs 9G shoot out in regards to SD
performance.

Hmm, I think this begs the question that only Robert can answer:
Was this intended to be a plasma shoot-out, or a flat-panel shoot-out?
The title is "flat panel" but it's in the plasma-display section.
The answer really affects the choices.

Robert??

Hmm, I think this begs the question that only Robert can answer:
Was this intended to be a plasma shoot-out, or a flat-panel shoot-out?
The title is "flat panel" but it's in the plasma-display section.
The answer really affects the choices.

Robert??It originally was called plasma shoot out... they changed the name

My list would be:

Pioneer 111FD
Pioneer 5020FD
Panasonic 50PZ850u (Digital Cinema Color)
Panasonic 50PZ800u (THX mode)
Samsung a750
LG 50pg60


Are you still attending the shootout?

I think there should absolutely be one plasma each from Panny, LG, and samsung, and then 2 kuros and one lcd (the toshiba). Some people did not have a samsung plasma in their list which would be a shame to omit.

Therefore my list would be:

Pioneer 111fd
Pionner 5010 or 5020 (the 5010 is tempting as a comparison from this year to last)
Samsung PN50A650 or PN50A750
Panasonic 800u or 850u
LG 50PG60
Toshiba LCD

Alternatively lose the toshiba and add another pioneer or panasonic.

EDIT: After thinking about it now I realize it may be cool to see how the 800u and 850u stack up. These are tough choices, man I wish there was space for an extra set or two.

Are you still attending the shootout?Yes

I feel less interested in the 850 after the HDGuru review. It sure sounds like the 800 is better. I'd do one panasonic - making room for the samsung LCD.

The Samsung A750 must be there.....it is, by far, the highest rated LCD on the market right now.....and it would be really interesting to see how it stacks up against the top Plasmas right now....

My list would be:

Pioneer 111FD
Pioneer 5020FD
Panasonic 50PZ850u (Digital Cinema Color)
Panasonic 50PZ800u (THX mode)
Samsung a750
LG 50pg60


I agree with that list also.
The Samsung LCD has got to be there, even though it may look pretty bad next to the panasonics and almighty Kuro's. At least you guys can say you gave it a chance.

The Samsung A750 must be there.....it is, by far, the highest rated LCD on the market right now.....and it would be really interesting to see how it stacks up against the top Plasmas right now....

Agreed !!!

This would be the kind of comparison that one of us would be trying to make. The two top of the line clash in a head to head, no holds barred battle of the titans.....or something like that. :o

Three things:

OK to the latest models, we'll have them.

-Robert

Three things:

OK to the latest models, we'll have them.

We still have plenty of seats available for the Friday 7:00 PM and a few for Saturday 11:00 AM. Should I start a thread in the LCD section?

Also I still would like to have our event IP cast and my broadband connection has a static IP address. Anyone willing to help set up the IP feed and possible even YouTube?

-Robert

Hello Robert,

Although there will be only six panels on the main wall, is there space on other walls for some of the spillover requests people are making? There wouldn't be direct comparisons with these others (for example, the Panasonic 850 on the main wall and the 800 on another), but they'd be nearby at least. I guess the issue is more complicated because this is no longer a plasma-only event, but if there will be room on other walls for other panels, that will mitigate the crush of suggestions somewhat. And though the main focus and presentation would be for those six on the main wall, the secondary panels could be arranged for reasonable comparisons on their wall.

So on the main wall there would be, perhaps, two Pioneers (one 8G and one 9G or 2 9Gs), Samsung's 650 plasma and 750 LCD; Toshiba's 550, and Panasonic's 850. Other walls might have the next step down models or other manufacturers not otherwise repesented (LG, for example).

The Samsung A750 must be there.....it is, by far, the highest rated LCD on the market right now.....and it would be really interesting to see how it stacks up against the top Plasmas right now....

Is the Samsung rater more highly than the Toshiba? If, so then maybe this should be the list:
* Pioneer 111FD
* Pioneer 5020FD
* Panasonic 50PZ800u (THX mode)
* LG 50pg60 (THX mode)
* Samsung pn50a650 (plasma)
* Samsung ln52a750 (LCD)

I saw reference to a Samsung 750 plasma at CES, but it doesn't seem to have materialized, so I think the 650 is their top plasma. Yes??

It'd be good to have the Panny and LG THX models side-by-side.

Three things:

OK to the latest models, we'll have them.

We still have plenty of seats available for the Friday 7:00 PM and a few for Saturday 11:00 AM. Should I start a thread in the LCD section?

Also I still would like to have our event IP cast and my broadband connection has a static IP address. Anyone willing to help set up the IP feed and possible even YouTube?

-Robert


Robert,

Can you pencil me in for the Saturday 11:00 AM showing.

Thanks.

My list would be:

Pioneer 111FD
Pioneer 5020FD
Panasonic 50PZ850u (Digital Cinema Color)
Panasonic 50PZ800u (THX mode)
Samsung a750
LG 50pg60



I agree with most of this list but would definitely substitute a PN50a650 for the LN52a750 which I owned (for 30 days) but then returned. To me it was excellent display but I ultimately could not live with what I saw as smearing\motion blur on some (not all) moving objects. :(

One other thing. Last year Vashti et. al., were kind enough to 'report' to the forum their observations the very next day, before the more detail results were posted. If I could respectfully ask her, D-Nice, and whomever else attends to post their observations to an attentive forum community who for whatever reasons can not attend. A brief pro\con for each of the 6 panels in descending order (6 to 1) I think would be a desirable method. For whomever takes on this task I thank you in advance and do hope that you all have a terrific time at this event. :)

There should be two LCDs in the line-up. Samsung A750 and the Toshiba 550. Everyone knows about the A750, but the 550 is Toshiba's LCD flagship, and a mystery. Specs look awesome, but it would be nice to know how it stands against the A750.

Robert,

Can you pencil me in for the Saturday 11:00 AM showing.

Thanks.

You're in. Please send me an email or PM with your name and cell #.

-Robert

You're in. Please send me an email or PM with your name and cell #.

-Robert

PM sent.

Thanks.

There should be two LCDs in the line-up. Samsung A750 and the Toshiba 550. Everyone knows about the A750, but the 550 is Toshiba's LCD flagship, and a mystery. Specs look awesome, but it would be nice to know how it stands against the A750.

I agree with your suggestion. I would like to see a couple of LCD's as well.

I have a Pioneer 5070 and it won't be long until it is upgrade time. I am very open minded when it comes to my next choice and I have enjoyed my non-Kuro Pioneer and the 9g will probably be at the top of my list but I did pop into CC today to see what the fuss is about in regards to this 750 LCD and I was pretty impressed. To the point that I asked if they had one in stock and then bailed. It was at a really cheap price today and minus the 12% coupon BB price match we are talking under $2500 for a top notch display that spanks my 5070. Kuro, I am sure a different story. This is why I think the Samsung 950 will be a better match-up price wise and performance wise with the 9G. Darn LCD's are now competing price wise..

The 750 is a mighty fine looking display to these eyes. The 950 maybe groundbreaking for LCD? I think it only fair that two of the better LCD's are included.

It will be interesting to see the Sony XBR8, Samsung 950 and Pioneer 9G in a couple of months. Unfortunately, the true test is Sept.to Oct. and I bet you could not go wrong with any of these displays. We'll see. Would love the shoot-out to be two months later..

It will be a personal choice like a metal or soft dome tweeter. Nothing more and nothing less but people defend their choice like a war.
Rick

kdpotato the pioneers (even the older 8 gen) are best in PQ compared to most if not all brands, not by a 2% but a higher number! i woud say 70% ^ +
look at the kuro pictures thread and the reviews of the 8g on the sound & vision http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/features/779/plasma-vs-lcd-round-ii.html

Yes, but there's very limited room, and this could easily become a Pio-only shootout!

Personally, I really want to see other plasmas in there. Pios are a LOT more money than other reputable brands. Are the Pios really 30% to 100+% better,
or only 2% better??

zues i would take a sharp over a vizio any day (better brand)

^^ Sharp is dumpster material also ;) Vizio would destroy it with NON blue blacks in a dark environment. Sharp is not even on the map compared to samsungs and sony's :( :)

prepress its been already proven that the 9g is a diffrence compare to the 8g,


At BB yesterday, I saw the 5010 on sale—clearance, actually—at a compelling price. That makes the shootout result more important for me. I don't know how many BB has in stock, but the possibility of saving that much money and getting a very good TV is difficult to ignore. I will therefore look forward to seeing BOTH 5010 and 5020 compared under controlled circumstances.

kdpotato the pioneers (even the older 8 gen) are best in PQ compared to most if not all brands, not by a 2% but a higher number! i woud say 70% ^ +

70%? Come on. I don't think even Pioneer would even go with that figure. Pioneer is tops, but others (Panny and even Sammy to some extent) are narrowing the gap. Let's not start throwing numbers like that out without something to back it up with.

WELL im sure its over half (50%) the quality i wouldnt want to put numbers and figures but the 9g non elite ansi was over 13,000 contrast. im sure the kuro are better then 50/half the quailty ask d-nice for a proper mesure (unbiased too!)

WELL im sure its over half (50%) the quality i wouldnt want to put numbers and figures but the 9g non elite ansi was over 13,000 contrast. im sure the kuro are better then 50/half the quailty ask d-nice for a proper mesure (unbiased too!)

Wishfull thinking. D Nice, I welcome your input on this. These threads are intended to give those doing research on their next purchase valid information to make a judgement on. Making wild statements as this is detrimental to this cause. Pioneer is the best, No 1, superior - fine, but your figures are obnoxious.

have you read his review of the 6020? and my figure is not obnoxious well atleast not the ansi contrast ratio when its exactly measured 14,600:1 on a non Service menu calibrated tv

EDIT: likewise sorry, for the sake ill leave my post for refrence if dnice wants to correct me

have you read his review of the 6020? and my figure is not obnoxious well atleast not the ansi contrast ratio when its exactly measured 14,600:1 on a non Service menu calibrated tv

Gus, we are way OT in this thread, this should be taken up in the Pioneer thread. I apologize to all for this tirade, I didn't realize which thread I was in.

rick i may of not know much about tv like dnice and what not but i got to the point where i do not use CC & BB to comapre displays regardless of technology due to their feed, (you know this right? or why mentioned? i do know more about tvs then i do in HT/sound though

Back to topic. Robert, would it be possible to put 2 extra on stands? Sounds like you need 8 for the shootout, 2 Pios, 2 Panys, 1 Sammy, 1 LG, 2 LCD's.

Robert,

A lot of us will not be able to travel (time, distance, money, lazy, etc) AND a lot of us are not experts; BUT we do like our HDTV!

It would be nice to have some subjective or objective comparisons for say the top 5 winners in the group, for us ordinary folks. Ranking the sets for overall performance and then specific primary categories.

Since I have had enough experience with LCDs, I know I do not like them. DLPs can be good; but not really the cats meow overall.

With all the different brands, it seems I always come back to Pio and Pana, and IMO they each have advantages and disadvantages over the other and yet both are indeed excellent. So those will be the main comparisons I will be interested in.

Also, with all the sets being ISF calibrated, will they each have at least a 100 hours on them? and/or similar rates of age (like 100-300 hours). The reason I make that statement I have seen some set calibrated with only 5-10 hours on the meter...........and for all practical purposes it trashes the calibration results and produces bad results....until the set gets some hours on it, and then can be corrected.

Thanks

kdpotato the pioneers (even the older 8 gen) are best in PQ compared to most if not all brands, not by a 2% but a higher number! i woud say 70% ^ +
look at the kuro pictures thread and the reviews of the 8g on the sound & vision http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/features/779/plasma-vs-lcd-round-ii.htmlThat depends on what 8G you are talking about. The 8G non-Elites handicap is it's oversaturated green and red color points. Color wise, it's slightly better than a Panasonic 85u/80u, LG, Vizo, and Hitachi. Samsung latest models and the Panasonic 800u (THX mode only) have superior reference color points. Contrast and black levels....the 8G non-Elites easily bests anything LG, Sansung, or Panasonic currently has on the market.

8G Elites are a different beast. Nothing on the market today beyond the 9G Kuros can touch them, period.

So, is a non-Elite better than 70% of what's out there? Eh, probably not. Is an Elite? Absolutely.

yes d-nice with all respect i was poiting out to the elite as we compare the best to the best the elite is the best out there

That depends on what 8G you are talking about. The 8G non-Elites handicap is it's oversaturated green and red color points. Color wise, it's slightly better than a Panasonic 85u/80u, LG, Vizo, and Hitachi. Samsung latest models and the Panasonic 800u (THX mode only) have superior reference color points. Contrast and black levels....the 8G non-Elites easily bests anything LG, Sansung, or Panasonic currently has on the market.

8G Elites are a different beast. Nothing on the market today beyond the 9G Kuros can touch them, period.

So, is a non-Elite better than 70% of what's out there? Eh, probably not. Is an Elite? Absolutely.

yes d-nice with all respect i was poiting out to the elite as we compare the best to the best the elite is the best out thereAh, then I agree.

prepress its been already proven that the 9g is a diffrence compare to the 8g,

Yes, but I am considering the best TV for my needs and wants overall, not just the best PQ. 9Gs lack a feature or two that I want, and I am considering the best balance overall between PQ and features. The 9G does some things better, true, but the 8G has things 9Gs lack.

A 9G purchase will mean giving up some features I want, or additional cost to acquire them in the form of outboard equipment.

what features are the 9g missing? well in elite or non elite? if its equipment wise then i figure cable card and such examples? sorry for ot

what features are the 9g missing? well in elite or non elite? if its equipment wise then i figure cable card and such examples? sorry for ot

My biggest complaint is the loss of analog connectivity over the 8G, with only one s-video and component each. I don't have an AVR or controller, only conventional stereo equipment to which the TV is being added. I would need at least another component connection (which the 8G has); I wouldn't use composite. There's also some loss in picture tweakability, though the 5020 seems to have at least the adjustment options my current XBR has, so theoretically I'm not losing anything there; others have lamented that one though, and I'll need to be careful I don't get carried away with their disappointment. CableCard would have been a nice option also, but its lack isn't a deal-breaker.

Still, if the 5020 just kills everything else I'm still open to getting it and making do with the reduced connections; I'd probably get a switcher of some kind. D-Nice mentioned the 6020's lackluster SD performance; that's another concern, but I'd hope my eyes are satisfied with the 5020's smaller screen, producing (I hope) a tighter image. In fact, SD performance will be a main focus for me.

My biggest complaint is the loss of analog connectivity over the 8G, with only one s-video and component each. I don't have an AVR or controller, only conventional stereo equipment to which the TV is being added. I would need at least another component connection (which the 8G has); I wouldn't use composite. There's also some loss in picture tweakability, though the 5020 seems to have at least the adjustment options my current XBR has, so theoretically I'm not losing anything there; others have lamented that one though, and I'll need to be careful I don't get carried away with their disappointment. CableCard would have been a nice option also, but its lack isn't a deal-breaker.

Still, if the 5020 just kills everything else I'm still open to getting it and making do with the reduced connections; I'd probably get a switcher of some kind. D-Nice mentioned the 6020's lackluster SD performance; that's another concern, but I'd hope my eyes are satisfied with the 5020's smaller screen, producing (I hope) a tighter image. In fact, SD performance will be a main focus for me.



The 5020 has standard L/R RCA Audio Outs so I am guessing you could send them to any two channel preamp setup if you do not wish to use the Pio attached speakers.

Have to say if SD is your main focus-getting a HD set is maybe not the way to go.
Standard CRT sets look better on SD TV feeds in most cases IMO.

Robert, if you still have a spot left for Saturday morning, please sign me up. I'm sending you a PM. Thanks - Dave (bigdavy)

The 5020 has standard L/R RCA Audio Outs so I am guessing you could send them to any two channel preamp setup if you do not wish to use the Pio attached speakers.

Have to say if SD is your main focus-getting a HD set is maybe not the way to go.
Standard CRT sets look better on SD TV feeds in most cases IMO.

You're right about SD on CRT. The reason for a new set is I want to watch my DVDs and laserdiscs on a bigger screen. I was hoping to avoid the expense of an outboard scaler/processor. But if I can't, so be it. That will limit what I can spend on the TV, though. I remember seeing a 110 with SD feed and it was definitely watchable; I also saw a 480p feed to the same set (different store) and it was very watchable. It looked quite good, in fact.

If I get a 5020 (or anything else for that matter), I'll use the TV's speakers for regular TV watching, and my stereo system for DVDs and LDs. With the extra connections, I could also utilize the 5020 speaker when I don't want to fire up the big rig, as I can do now with my current TV and setup.

Robert, if you still have a spot left for Saturday morning, please sign me up. I'm sending you a PM. Thanks - Dave (bigdavy)

Dave,

You're in, but I have to pull up the ladder for Saturday's event. Friday 7:00 PM is still open with a few seats. Similar venue other than the food and some of the beverages.

-Robert

Robert,

Still no one interested in helping you with the webcast?

prepress i would go with the elite since it gives you all tweekablity and and it would help ALOT more since you can ajust NR DRE etc to make SD look better then the 5020.

also a switch would fix some issues in those area's but thats not enough of a deal breaker for me as i look for PQ not for connectivity.

also the sd feed will be done in feb

fianly a 50" elite over a 6020 would be a wise decision since you have more control in ajustments for better PQ but at the same time SD would look better due to the combination of size + ajustments

My biggest complaint is the loss of analog connectivity over the 8G, with only one s-video and component each. I don't have an AVR or controller, only conventional stereo equipment to which the TV is being added. I would need at least another component connection (which the 8G has); I wouldn't use composite. There's also some loss in picture tweakability, though the 5020 seems to have at least the adjustment options my current XBR has, so theoretically I'm not losing anything there; others have lamented that one though, and I'll need to be careful I don't get carried away with their disappointment. CableCard would have been a nice option also, but its lack isn't a deal-breaker.

Still, if the 5020 just kills everything else I'm still open to getting it and making do with the reduced connections; I'd probably get a switcher of some kind. D-Nice mentioned the 6020's lackluster SD performance; that's another concern, but I'd hope my eyes are satisfied with the 5020's smaller screen, producing (I hope) a tighter image. In fact, SD performance will be a main focus for me.

avssa apprently not (i dont know how to either) but i do wish someone does this since im in california and i cant attend! although im pretty sure the pro 111 woud be the best overall (99% sure :D)

Robert,

Still no one interested in helping you with the webcast?

Robert,
I would absolutly love to got to this shoot out.
But unfortunatly I just live too far away.
Is anyone going to be recording the event on a good HD-camcorder?
If so I would like to purchase a copy if possible. It would be awesome watching the flatpanel shootout on a Kuro!

Thanks,
Chad

prepress i would go with the elite since it gives you all tweekablity and and it would help ALOT more since you can ajust NR DRE etc to make SD look better then the 5020.

also a switch would fix some issues in those area's but thats not enough of a deal breaker for me as i look for PQ not for connectivity.

also the sd feed will be done in feb

fianly a 50" elite over a 6020 would be a wise decision since you have more control in ajustments for better PQ but at the same time SD would look better due to the combination of size + ajustments

A 60" set would be too big anyway; I don't have the space. So it would be a 50" plasma, a 46" or (maybe) 52" LCD. Analog broadcasting will be done in February, but SD too? Are you sure?

The Elite's side-mounted speakers are a problem, space-wise. I have perhaps a 49" space to fit a TV in. Pending the shoot-out results, I'd have to see if I could manuever my equipment racks to get the extra 8" or so an Elite would require. And even if I can do that, it's a VERY tight fit.

NOTICE TO ALL

This is in NO WAY an AVS Forum event. AVS Forum did not give the permission to use our name or site for promotion of a retail store event. AVS Forum does not get involved in "shootouts" or the like based on how the outcomes are viewed.

As you can already see in this thread, the speculation of the outcome had started long ago. It is plain to see the issue such events can make for and why AVS Forum can not be part of it. AVS Forum as a company remains neutral on such topics.

Value Electronics runs ad on this site for marketing and is not connected to AVS Forum in any other way.

NOTICE TO ALL

This is in NO WAY an AVS Forum event. AVS Forum did not give the permission to use our name or site for promotion of a retail store event. AVS Forum does not get involved in "shootouts" or the like based on how the outcomes are viewed.

As you can already see in this thread, the speculation of the outcome had started long ago. It is plain to see the issue such events can make for and why AVS Forum can not be part of it. AVS Forum as a company remains neutral on such topics.

Value Electronics runs ad on this site for marketing and is not connected to AVS Forum in any other way.


Completely Understood! :) I can't speak for everyone but I for one in no anyway ever thought that this event was sponsored by AVS Forum. I will also say that this event does create excitement and real interest among the many who visit this site on a regular basis. A challenge event like this is at the core of what we here are all about. To find out objectively what truly is best in class and perhaps to justify what we are spending or will be spending our hard earned money on. Thank you for making this clear so we all understand the position of AVS on this.

yes analog broadcasting is the same matter with SD since sd is analog:) so it will be digital channels only (of course we do get HD channels depending) and i would make space for PQ if it was me, heck i'd even get rid of the side speakers (not putting them) go for the elite man

A 60" set would be too big anyway; I don't have the space. So it would be a 50" plasma, a 46" or (maybe) 52" LCD. Analog broadcasting will be done in February, but SD too? Are you sure?

The Elite's side-mounted speakers are a problem, space-wise. I have perhaps a 49" space to fit a TV in. Pending the shoot-out results, I'd have to see if I could manuever my equipment racks to get the extra 8" or so an Elite would require. And even if I can do that, it's a VERY tight fit.

yes analog broadcasting is the same matter with SD since sd is analog:) so it will be digital channels only (of course we do get HD channels depending) and i would make space for PQ if it was me, heck i'd even get rid of the side speakers (not putting them) go for the elite man

Incorrect. SD is digital, just lower resolution & less bandwidth.

SD channels are analog and digital, those analog ones will be gone once the digital on feb 17th transition happens and the digital editions will remain, which is what im trying to point out is that the analog ones dont look the same as the digital ones therefore per say a analog fox 35 will not look the same as a digital fox 35 on a 60" ....

NOTICE TO ALL

This is in NO WAY an AVS Forum event. AVS Forum did not give the permission to use our name or site for promotion of a retail store event. AVS Forum does not get involved in "shootouts" or the like based on how the outcomes are viewed.

As you can already see in this thread, the speculation of the outcome had started long ago. It is plain to see the issue such events can make for and why AVS Forum can not be part of it. AVS Forum as a company remains neutral on such topics.

Value Electronics runs ad on this site for marketing and is not connected to AVS Forum in any other way.

It's a bit surprising that someone would interpret this as an AVS-sponsored event. I, at least, have seen nothing to suggest that. I guess it's possible, though.

SD channels are analog and digital, those analog ones will be gone once the digital on feb 17th transition happens and the digital editions will remain, which is what im trying to point out is that the analog ones dont look the same as the digital ones therefore per say a analog fox 35 will not look the same as a digital fox 35 on a 60" ....

Digital SD definitely looks better than analog SD; I've seen the difference. Still, the TV that handles SD best (whether analog or digital) will have a leg up with me (all else being at least equal).

hi everybody excited about the shootout, 1st plasma 151 complete newbie. THANK YOU TO ROBERT,D-NICE FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE,WIDSOM,TIME. d-nice are you going to be both days at the shootout? everybody wants to meet the GODFATHER.

You're in, but I have to pull up the ladder for Saturday's event. Friday 7:00 PM is still open with a few seats. Similar venue other than the food and some of the beverages.

-Robert


Hi Robert,

I just PMed you for the Friday shootout. Please confirm. Thanks.

- Raj

No activity in this thread for four days. What's up? The event is next weekend. Have the final panels for the competition been selected? If so, which are they?

That depends on what 8G you are talking about. The 8G non-Elites handicap is it's oversaturated green and red color points. Color wise, it's slightly better than a Panasonic 85u/80u, LG, Vizo, and Hitachi. Samsung latest models and the Panasonic 800u (THX mode only) have superior reference color points. Contrast and black levels....the 8G non-Elites easily bests anything LG, Sansung, or Panasonic currently has on the market.

8G Elites are a different beast. Nothing on the market today beyond the 9G Kuros can touch them, period.

So, is a non-Elite better than 70% of what's out there? Eh, probably not. Is an Elite? Absolutely.


I am leaning towards the Vidikron VP 5000VHD

Hopefully the Samsung A550 or A650 plasma will make the list given the very positive reviews it has now received from HomeTheaterMag, UltimateAV and Widescreen Review. Plus, assuming this is a blind testing, it would be good to have a "reference" display for color points to compare as the A550/650's colors can be tweaked almost perfectly to the HD709 colorspace (well, save for Magenta which will be slightly off).

I agree! Next to the Sony XBR8, which will not be out yet, the Samsung A650 is the LCD I'd like to see compared to the plasmas.

I meant the A650 Plasma ;) .... but if they are going to put 1 LCD in the mix it might as well be the Samsung LCD as well. :D

The Samsung 750 is the latest LCD and represents top of the line. It seems it has more features than the 650, but PQ is similar from what I can gather. It got a good review on Ultimate AV.

The Samsung 750 is the latest LCD and represents top of the line. It seems it has more features than the 650, but PQ is similar from what I can gather. It got a good review on Ultimate AV.

I know I had mentioned this elsewhere in AVS. I had owned an LN52A750 LCD and I was impressed. I ultimately returned it because I could not live with the motion blur and to a lesser degree the off angle drop off in image quality. However, on the whole it is a fine display.

Aside from the 111 Elite, I'd preference the Pio 5020, Pan 850 and the Samsung 650 plasma for this competition. Does anyone know when Robert plans to finalize the display list?

All I can say is this shootout should make for some very interesting / fun and informative reading here on the forum .... can't wait!!!;)

Does anyone know when Robert plans to finalize the display list?

Back in June, immediately after he realized that too many models were being suggested.

Just kidding with you, but it did cross my mind when someone suggested a 2006 model display. :D

Robert, what are the finalists on the shoot out wall? Thanks

Chad, that's a interesting idea for all of the panels bezel's covered as everyone comes in or how about leave them uncovered till near the end of the presentation, have blindfolds put on the participants them mix up the panels positions by having our tech's cover and move them a random order and have the participants vote on which panel is which.

-Robert

Wouldn't moving the panels around be a lot of work? If bezels are to be covered (I'd personally prefer not), I think leaving them in place helps because it provides the eye and brain with a reference point, making evaluation easier. At least, it would for me. Then, at the end, remove the covers one by one. That way, perhaps we can build a little suspense. Just an idea.

Wouldn't moving the panels around be a lot of work? If bezels are to be covered (I'd personally prefer not), I think leaving them in place helps because it provides the eye and brain with a reference point, making evaluation easier. At least, it would for me. Then, at the end, remove the covers one by one. That way, perhaps we can build a little suspense. Just an idea.

Good suggestions. Whatever is decided I think many of us would agree that it would be important to maintain the integrity of the event by doing something (e.g. hide bezels) to as much as possible eliminate the possibility of viewer bias.

Wouldn't moving the panels around be a lot of work? If bezels are to be covered (I'd personally prefer not), I think leaving them in place helps because it provides the eye and brain with a reference point, making evaluation easier. At least, it would for me. Then, at the end, remove the covers one by one. That way, perhaps we can build a little suspense. Just an idea.

Judging from the time available for this event, I'd seriously doubt there's time to move the panels around.

^^^^^^
Agreed, moving the panels, while ideal, would take substantial effort and time. Keeping the bezels blackened will work somethat, assuming you won't be changing sources (as with the Samsung for instance you get a screen message with the change). Were the final panels decided on?

Robert, would you mind posting directions from the train station to VE here? That way, all of us coming on the train will have access to them. Thanks!

I hope the Samsung LN52A750 LCD is included. I really want to see how it fares.

Direction to Value Electronics by Metro-North train:

Exit the train in Scarsdale, cross over the tracks via the walk overpass, which puts you on the side for the trains back to NYC and walk straight (you can only go one direction) to Value Electronics store at 108 Garth Rd.

"This is what Robert PM me."

I wish I could make it...

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1449/mapyx9.jpg

I'm a bit too far away.

Let me know if anybody needs a ride from Brooklyn.
Can pick up if you live close to parkslope or any of the adjoining neighborhoods.
send pm.

K

Hey Robert,
Please check the BDP-51FD for 480i to 720p scaling.
Thanks,
Dean

Hey Robert,
Please check the BDP-51FD for 480i to 720p scaling.
Thanks,
Dean

Same here Dean...Robert would you look into that and gives us your opinion.
Thanks
Jake

I wish I could make it...

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1449/mapyx9.jpg

I'm a bit too far away.

Only 635 miles! Where's your spirit of adventure? Where's your commitment to television?!

Only 635 miles! Where's your spirit of adventure? Where's your commitment to television?!

Probably ending somewhere near Wheeling!

What can I say? I'm on the West Coast..I'll just wait for the results!
And to think we were in Scarsdale 2 months ago.

Let me know if anybody needs a ride from Brooklyn.
Can pick up if you live close to parkslope or any of the adjoining neighborhoods.
send pm.

K

How about a ride from Seattle?

I don't imagine we'll get to hear what any of these sets sound like, will we? On-board sound may be a factor to a few people, at least.

How about a ride from Seattle?

You mean that Bill and Melinda have snubbed you by not including you on their jet set list?

I'm sharing a train with some high class folks from Manhattan!

Hey y'all. I want to make a reservation for lunch for all AVSers who'd like to dine and shmooze together after the shoot-out. Here's who I have so far:

Djoel
Prepress
D-Nice
Robert
sbwto
myself

It's possible I misplaced a name. I feel like there was a sixth. Robert tells me that some of you have been telling him you're interested. So in the interests of making a reservation, if you'd like to come and you're not on the list, can you register that fact here or shoot me a PM VERY soon? Thanks. I'm looking forward to meeting all you fine AVSers on Saturday. See you then!

You mean that Bill and Melinda have snubbed you by not including you on their jet set list?

I'm sharing a train with some high class folks from Manhattan!

They are too busy with charities :D

Hey y'all. I want to make a reservation for lunch for all AVSers who'd like to dine and shmooze together after the shoot-out. Here's who I have so far:

Djoel
Prepress
D-Nice
Robert
myself

It's possible I misplaced a name. I feel like there was a sixth. Robert tells me that some of you have been telling him you're interested. So in the interests of making a reservation, if you'd like to come and you're not on the list, can you register that fact here or shoot me a PM VERY soon? Thanks. I'm looking forward to meeting all you fine AVSers on Saturday. See you then!




Yeah I need a drink, horrid week for me!:(

DJoel

Just wanted to drop by to say I'm alive and well.

Most participants have received our welcome kit. Sorry I have not posted much in the past few days as I am crazy working to get every detail as perfect as possible for the event and I want to stay away from promoting my company in any way in my forum posts. However the truth of the matter is I'm a serious enthusiast just like many other very fine members here. And I want to be the CE public education retailer, it's my personal mission and I am using all of my resources to reach those who want to learn, possibly participate and to partner with to enhance the value of my contributions.

I am busting out with enthusiasm on our event as all of our plans are working out as we had hoped and a few very special surprises have come together, much of which I am not able to disclose, but I can tell you they include upcoming AVR hardware and BD hardware and an upcoming software title that will blow everyone away. Sorry to rattle on but we even have a surprise guest who may say a few words.

So again I must ask; can someone volunteer to set-up an IP cast of this event?

BTW, 2 seats opened up for Friday evening and one for Saturday morning. Plenty of fine food and drinks at the event.

-Robert

Robert, had to rub it in with us West Coasters eh! Kidding, you guys are going to have a blast though, look forward to the full report, hopefully a Signature series is somewhere there.

I don't imagine we'll get to hear what any of these sets sound like, will we? On-board sound may be a factor to a few people, at least.

I'd be interested as I currently have the Bose Acustamas 5.1 with Passive Sub. along with a JVC receiver that was part of a SAm's Club HTIB purchase years ago. My receiver's back channels no longer work and I'm looking at the Denon 2309CI as it's replacement but I won't be upgrading my speakers for a while.

Anyway, I was in BB last week and heard the sound on the 60" 9G Elite and was pretty impressed with it. My set up will likely include the Pioneer Elite 111fd, an Oppo 983H, a PS3 (60gb) and a Dish 722VIP DVR.

I'd be interested as I currently have the Bose Acustamas 5.1 with Passive Sub. along with a JVC receiver that was part of a SAm's Club HTIB purchase years ago. My receiver's back channels no longer work and I'm looking at the Denon 2309CI as it's replacement but I won't be upgrading my speakers for a while.

Anyway, I was in BB last week and heard the sound on the 60" 9G Elite and was pretty impressed with it. My set up will likely include the Pioneer Elite 111fd, an Oppo 983H, a PS3 (60gb) and a Dish 722VIP DVR.

That's at least two of us! Some need to use on-board sound at least some of the time for space, budget, or practical reasons. In my case, with a bi-amp setup, I'd consider it a waste to fire up the big rig just to get "Local on the 8s" from the Weather Channel; that's seven switches!

^^^^^^
Agreed, moving the panels, while ideal, would take substantial effort and time. Keeping the bezels blackened will work somethat, assuming you won't be changing sources (as with the Samsung for instance you get a screen message with the change). Were the final panels decided on?

Also, perhaps we should avoid displaying menus, as each manufacturer has a distinct graphic style that might be a giveaway. For example, I would know a Toshiba, even if you cover the bezel, by its GUI.

Just wanted to drop by to say I'm alive and well.

Most participants have received our welcome kit. Sorry I have not posted much in the past few days as I am crazy working to get every detail as perfect as possible for the event and I want to stay away from promoting my company in any way in my forum posts. However the truth of the matter is I'm a serious enthusiast just like many other very fine members here. And I want to be the CE public education retailer, it's my personal mission and I am using all of my resources to reach those who want to learn, possibly participate and to partner with to enhance the value of my contributions.

I am busting out with enthusiasm on our event as all of our plans are working out as we had hoped and a few very special surprises have come together, much of which I am not able to disclose, but I can tell you they include upcoming AVR hardware and BD hardware and an upcoming software title that will blow everyone away. Sorry to rattle on but we even have a surprise guest who may say a few words.

So again I must ask; can someone volunteer to set-up an IP cast of this event?

BTW, 2 seats opened up for Friday evening and one for Saturday morning. Plenty of fine food and drinks at the event.

-Robert

Do you already have a video camera and computer, or did you need someone to bring that? I'd love to help out, but my computer doesn't have FireWire, so I wouldn't be able to hook up a camcorder.

It be really nice if you guys could report the settings the people from pioneer use with the 5020/6020 and 111/151 for the shootout.

Can't wait to read the findings from the shootout

Do you already have a video camera and computer, or did you need someone to bring that? I'd love to help out, but my computer doesn't have FireWire, so I wouldn't be able to hook up a camcorder.

I have a Toshiba SD digital camcorder which has firewire out.
however, I do not have a PC w/Firewire input. We have a static IP with our broadband connection.

-Robert

so I guess the shootout is probably underway right about now or sometime tomorrow?

nice! I can't wait to read the findings also, but I think there shouldn't be too many surprises here as the Pios will easily mop the floor with the competition :D

i'm also curious to know how the lone LCD would stack up to those mighty plasmas, but then again, I wouldn't be surprised that it would get destroyed in almost every category. its too bad that the LED backlit xbr8 and 950 LCDs aren't available yet, now these (with their 2000+ RGB LED, more LED-clusters, local dimming, 120hz, motion enhancers, etc.) would make for a way more interesting shootout i think.

It be really nice if you guys could report the settings the people from pioneer use with the 5020/6020 and 111/151 for the shootout.

Can't wait to read the findings from the shootout


I think its already been said that all sets will be calibrated as well as possible to standard specs. This will give us better insight into what these displays will do and not favor one because its brighter, etc.

Hey y'all. I want to make a reservation for lunch for all AVSers who'd like to dine and shmooze together after the shoot-out. Here's who I have so far:

Djoel
Prepress
D-Nice
Robert
sbwto
myself

It's possible I misplaced a name. I feel like there was a sixth. Robert tells me that some of you have been telling him you're interested. So in the interests of making a reservation, if you'd like to come and you're not on the list, can you register that fact here or shoot me a PM VERY soon? Thanks. I'm looking forward to meeting all you fine AVSers on Saturday. See you then!

You mentioned lunch, so I assume its for this Saturday?

If it's for Saturday, I'll gladly attend.:)

It be really nice if you guys could report the settings the people from pioneer use with the 5020/6020 and 111/151 for the shootout.

Can't wait to read the findings from the shootout

I think its already been said that all sets will be calibrated as well as possible to standard specs. This will give us better insight into what these displays will do and not favor one because its brighter, etc.

All panels are being ISF expertly calibrated by Kevin Miller, one of the best video/audio gods.

One part of our demonstration will be switching all panels simultaneously from the standard mode as they come out of the box to the ISF calibrated mode. We are programming a Universal Remote MX-980 so we can quickly switch the a/v modes on all panels with the touch of one button

-Robert

I am really looking forward to seeing the various panels performance when calibrated to a standard. It is typically very difficult to make an accurate assessment in most stores unless they let you play with the settings yourself.

I wonder if any surprises will come out of this shootout, can't wait until tomorrow night.

It is really nice to have someone like Robert take the time out to put together an event like this. It just shows his dedication to this hobby.

Wow!! Now that's awesome!

Dear Friday 7pm,
Please come sooner :)


One part of our demonstration will be switching all panels simultaneously from the standard mode as they come out of the box to the ISF calibrated mode.

-Robert

You mentioned lunch, so I assume its for this Saturday?

If it's for Saturday, I'll gladly attend.:)



Hey Mike it would be great to meet you, I say the more the merrier:)


Hope to see ya Saturady.

Djoel

Just to be clear, After the "shoot out" we should know just how a Pioneer 5020 compares to a Panasonic 850u right?

Thanks!
-NK

You mentioned lunch, so I assume its for this Saturday?

If it's for Saturday, I'll gladly attend.:)

You can add me for lunch also

Hey Mike it would be great to meet you, I say the more the merrier:)


Hope to see ya Saturady.

Djoel


The feeling is mutual Daniel.:)

Mike

All panels are being ISF expertly calibrated by Kevin Miller, one of the best video/audio gods.

One part of our demonstration will be switching all panels simultaneously from the standard mode as they come out of the box to the ISF calibrated mode. We are programming a Universal Remote MX-980 so we can quickly switch the a/v modes on all panels with the touch of one button

-Robert

Glad to hear Kevin will be calibrating these panels. He calibrated my
Sony XBR2 a couple years back and the results were remarkable.

Kevin seemed like a terrific person too, who really enjoys what he
does.

Also, perhaps we should avoid displaying menus, as each manufacturer has a distinct graphic style that might be a giveaway. For example, I would know a Toshiba, even if you cover the bezel, by its GUI.

I thought about this at work, and menu options, especially as they relate to picture adjustment, are important information. Maybe these could be displayed/discussed after the reveal, if the bezels are covered. I guess a 5- or 10-minute break could be declared if sources or menus have to appear on screen to help hide each set's identity further. If the bezels aren't covered, it's that much easier as the picture settings and adjustments fall right into the discussion of each set.

Oh man, I can't wait for the results of this shoot-out. Wish I could go...

I am trying to setup a live broadcast for the event. For detail, please go to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1050005

Hi Robert

Are you going to show us any SD so we can see which panel handles the crappy feeds we get the best?

See you Saturday

Robert,

Will any of the Monitors 141/151 be there?

All panels are being ISF expertly calibrated by Kevin Miller, one of the best video/audio gods.

One part of our demonstration will be switching all panels simultaneously from the standard mode as they come out of the box to the ISF calibrated mode. We are programming a Universal Remote MX-980 so we can quickly switch the a/v modes on all panels with the touch of one button
-Robert
WOW!
Do you guys realize how rare it is to be able to see a set up like this?

Robert deserves a lot of credit for making this possible.

I wish I were able to attend, but don't want to ruin it for everyone with my squirmy five year old.:D

WOW!
Do you guys realize how rare it is to be able to see a set up like this?

Robert deserves a lot of credit for making this possible.

I wish I were able to attend, but don't want to ruin it for everyone with my squirmy five year old.:D

You may try to watch it live on your computer. For detail: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1050005

Regarding the internet feed ... is there a predetermined presentation time length (like 1 or 2 or ? hours) so we will know when to tune in or when not to tune in? And will we have to wait until the end of the weekend to know the "winners"?

(I plan to tune in).

Thank you Robert and SoSo and everybody else involved in putting this together. Doncha love technology! :cool:

Page14

Regarding the internet feed ... is there a predetermined presentation time length (like 1 or 2 or ? hours) so we will know when to tune in or when not to tune in? And will we have to wait until the end of the weekend to know the "winners"?

(I plan to tune in).

Thank you Robert and SoSo and everybody else involved in putting this together. Doncha love technology! :cool:

Page14

I believe the event is from 7:00 pm EST to 9:00 pm EST but not a 100% sure.

THanks Soso, that is a great idea.


Not to be too greedy, but is anyone going to live blog the event? That would be great for those of us who may not be able to sit in front of the computer watching the bcast, but want to check in to see how it is going.

THanks Soso, that is a great idea.


Not to be too greedy, but is anyone going to live blog the event? That would be great for those of us who may not be able to sit in front of the computer watching the bcast, but want to check in to see how it is going.

I hope someone will take on that task but unfortunately my hand are too full already for that.

I will also try to record the whole thing but that's up to Robert and Value Electronics how to handle the distribution or those details stuff. I am just trying my best to contribute to the forum. ;)

I believe the event is from 7:00 pm EST to 9:00 pm EST but not a 100% sure.

Thank you SoSo. :)

I think that having good sound quality from the event via 'The SoSo Channel' will be very important. Given that we really can't judge the real PQ of the displayed panels over the internet, hearing the comments from those in attendance especially Robert and Kevin Miller will be something we all are interested in. Therefore paying attention to the microphone(s) throughout the event will be crucial. Do you agree?

I think that having good sound quality from the event via 'The SoSo Channel' will be very important. Given that we really can't judge the real PQ of the displayed panels over the internet, hearing the comments from those in attendance especially Robert and Kevin Miller will be something we all are interested in. Therefore paying attention to the microphone(s) throughout the event will be crucial. Do you agree?

That's a very good point. I will pay special attention to the audio. I will probably start broadcasting at 6:00 pm - 6:30 pm EST for testing. Please help me test. Thanks.

I hope there is some kind of recording available for distribution. Unfortunately I will be working during both sessions. I'm really disappointed.:(

That's a very good point. I will pay special attention to the audio. I will probably start broadcasting at 6:00 pm - 6:30 pm EST for testing. Please help me test. Thanks.

If I'm available before 07:00 PM (EST) I will help you test. With my schedule today I'm not sure if that is possible. Can someone else here who knows for sure they'll be available from 06:00 - 06:30 commit to helping ensure that the audio is the best it can be.

SoSo, are you coordinating the A\V broadcast test with Robert? For this to be successful, attention to the camera\audio on the event side needs to be pretty constant.

Robert,

You may already have a rating system in place. But I don't think that I have not read of one. With that said, this may be too late for this year but, may I suggest a simple rating system of 1-10 (10 being best), for several categories. Those should certainly include following performance marks, HD PQ, SD PQ, On-Board Audio, Moderate Ambient light, Anti-Reflective surface. I'm thinking each of these should be rated by your panel and published after the event. Seeing category ratings would be beneficial to many of us for many reasons. The overall winner (I think) should be based solely on HD PQ because that is what this is mostly about… isn't it. :D

Once again, thank you for coordinating this event.

Bob

If I'm available before 07:00 PM (EST) I will help you test. With my schedule today I'm not sure if that is possible. Can someone else here who knows for sure they'll be available from 06:00 - 06:30 commit to helping ensure that the audio is the best it can be.

SoSo, are you coordinating the A\V broadcast test with Robert? For this to be successful, attention to the camera\audio on the event side needs to be pretty constant.

I should be getting there quite early and can work with SoSo to verify the audio feed.

I hope there is some kind of recording available for distribution. Unfortunately I will be working during both sessions. I'm really disappointed.:(

I will talk to Robert, he had mentioned he had a SD video camera with a fire wire output. I will have my work laptop with me and it has a functioning firewire input. I could copy the Event and burn it to DVD for distribution through Robert if he would like.
I cant make it happen over night but can try to get it done.

If I'm available before 07:00 PM (EST) I will help you test. With my schedule today I'm not sure if that is possible. Can someone else here who knows for sure they'll be available from 06:00 - 06:30 commit to helping ensure that the audio is the best it can be.

SoSo, are you coordinating the A\V broadcast test with Robert? For this to be successful, attention to the camera\audio on the event side needs to be pretty constant.

Thanks, I have spoken with Robert and together we will try our best to do this. Because of the limitation of the internet video quality, Robert and I both agree audio will actually take priority.

In addition, Robert said he should have three camera recording the event in addition to mine broadcast cam. So that should be good for distribution later.

If interested I could try and stream another channel with a different vantage point.
Before we get our hopes up lets see what kind of signal I get in the VZ broadband card.

Guys

Where is the best place to park? (from the sticks, not use to all this big city parking ;))

Robert,

You may already have a rating system in place. But I don't think that I have not read of one. With that said, this may be too late for this year but, may I suggest a simple rating system of 1-10 (10 being best), for several categories. Those should certainly include following performance marks, HD PQ, SD PQ, On-Board Audio, Moderate Ambient light, Anti-Reflective surface. I'm thinking each of these should be rated by your panel and published after the event. Seeing category ratings would be beneficial to many of us for many reasons. The overall winner (I think) should be based solely on HD PQ because that is what this is mostly about… isn't it. :D

Once again, thank you for coordinating this event.

Bob

Or, the overall winner (if there is one) could be determined by highest overall score, or which set wins the most categories. Perhaps a rating system isn't truly necessary, but if there is one, here are three ways to approach it.

Ultimately, everyone will have their own opinions and analysis based on their own perspective, whether objective or subjective (or a combination).

Guys

Where is the best place to park? (from the sticks, not use to all this big city parking ;))

There are parking meters all around the store.

Kind of cool watching the prep in the store via the web now 25 minutes away.

I already could see obvious green push running the Kuro Demo on one panel but cannot ID which panel is feeding GREEN.

Great idea to do this via the web.:)

and an upcoming software title that will blow everyone away. -Robert

You have peaked my interest with this statement...better than BD Planet Earth?

Could you throw out another tidbit if you have time about the software?

Any chance of backing the camera back further or using a wider focal length?

westa6969- what is the webpage you are watching?

Any chance of backing the camera back further or using a wider focal length?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1050005&page=5
all info is here first page is the link

Anyone got a full list of the panels that are in the shoot-out yet?

What's the display on the bottom right? Looks good on my screen. Kuro on bottom left? Skin tone too red.

So far, I have heard mention of the following:

Pioneer Elite 111FD

Pioneer 5010

Pioneer PROFDH1

Samsung A650

Panasonic PZ800

LG LCD

Toshiba LCD

I guess that this was inevitable, but Kevin Miller claimed that only the Pioneer Elite and the LG offered the ability to adjust the primary/secondary colors, apparently completely oblivious to the fact that the Samsung A650, which is there, has a very sophisticated color management system, much more powerful than the primitive one found in the Elite.

Depressing.

the LG is a plasma

I believe the panels are:

Panny 800u - top left
Samsung plasma (A650?)
5010 - bottom left
pro-111 - bottom middle
LG 50pg60
Toshiba lcd (their high-end model) - bottom right

Also, here are the feeds for anyone whos just joining. Both are working good, I find the valuee feed really lets you see the blacks.

http://www.mogulus.com/valuee

http://www.mogulus.com/soso

You have peaked my interest with this statement...better than BD Planet Earth?

Could you throw out another tidbit if you have time about the software?

it seems they have a br of the godfather. and when they started to show it they were screaming turn off the feed no video no audio. lame ass copyright scared bullcrap. yeah like someone is gonna record off the regular webfeed and post it on youtube...............DUH.........

Can you ask the pioneer reps if the BDP-05FD will always have the matching firmware to the BDP-51FD or will the Elite version be getting feature updates through firmware that the Pure version won't? Other than minor differences that won't matter to most people, the Elite differences from the Pure have no performance/customizaton value. I would gladly hold off on buying a BDP-51FD IF the Elite will be getting feature upgrades that the Pure one won't e.g. Base Management, improved DVD/Blu Ray rendering performance etc...

Also, for the SC-05 that is at the shoot out (I heard one of the presenters mention it was there", will there be specific attention to this receiver and its' performance in a test/evaluation setting?

Thanks...

There are parking meters all around the store.

Thanks Ken. I will have to raid the quarter jar before I leave

I believe the panels are:

Panny 800u - top left
Samsung plasma (A650?)
5010 - bottom left
pro-111 - bottom middle
LG 50pg60
Toshiba lcd (their high-end model) - bottom right


Can someone confirm if the A650 is the Samsung LCD 650 (LN52a650) or the Plasma 650 (PN50a650)?

its the plasma. Heres the definitive list

Panny 800u - top left
Samsung plasma (A650) - top middle
LG 50pg60 - top right
5010 - bottom left
pro-111 - bottom middle
Toshiba lcd (their high-end model) - bottom right

I watched the shootout, and really enjoyed it. Kevin Miller was really informative. Pio mopped the floor, as expected. They actually all knew the results beforehand as Kevin and robert would have basically done the shootout when Kevin was doing his calibration, and they made it clear what Kevin felt had the best PQ (the 111). Seeing D-nice talk at the end was probably the highlight, and he addressed the good as well as some issues, which was very good to see. Plus he made a crack about the forums :D

From what I saw from the alternate feed, black level results were: 111, 5010, panny, sammy, LG, toshiba. The two pioneers looked practically off, while everything else had varying levels of glow, getting quite bad by the time it reached the LCD.

Actually Toshibas LCD was getting destroyed and was shut off in the middle of the demonstration. so you don't see it much. :D

Thanks to Robert, SoSo and everyone else involved in this.

Good to hear. I would love to see how the Samsung A750 LCDs compare in blacks to the rest of the pack.

Chris

Thanks Ken. I will have to raid the quarter jar before I leave

no free parking on Saturdays?? lol

except that they were calibrated by an unbiased party, a highly regarded ISF calibrator. Sure pioneer was there, but that in no way changed the results. They merely talked. The kuros would have won whether they were there or not. Simple. Its not like they messed up the other screens.

its the plasma. Heres the definitive list

I watched the shootout, and really enjoyed it. Kevin Miller was really informative. Pio mopped the floor, as expected.

From what I saw from the alternate feed, black level results were: 111, 5010, panny, sammy, LG, toshiba.

Well, we knew going in that Pioneer would have the best blacks. But black level is only one part of the equation. I would be interested in hearing which set had the overall best picture (and number 2 and 3), including factors such as brightness (hopefully you could view in actual full light, and not just an artifically dark room), color reproduction, processing on non HD signals, and reflections.

All those factors make a big difference, rather than just black level. Black level and contrast is great, but if you are watching a football game in the middle of the day with your windows open as most of us do, the contrast ratio is going to fade in importance compared with reflections and brightness output.

Of course we also want a great black level for night viewing of movies in darkened rooms, but as least for me, thats only about 40% of my viewing.

Ed

Critical viewing evaluation with full ambient light? Isn't that an oxymoron?

except that they were calibrated by an unbiased party, a highly regarded ISF calibrator. Sure pioneer was there, but that in no way changed the results. They merely talked. The kuros would have won whether they were there or not. Simple. Its not like they messed up the other screens.No? Then explain why Kevin Miller said that the only displays that offered the ability to adjust the primary and secondary colors were the LG and the Pioneer Elite? The Samsung A650, which they had there for display, has one of the most sophisticated color management systems available, much more powerful than the relatively primitive controls found on the Elite.

Hey, I think that the current Elites are arguably the best plasmas available, maybe the best displays available, and I am not a Samsung owner. Nonetheless, this event struck me more as a marketing event for the Pioneer line than a serious "shootout." It understated the strengths of the competitors and over-emphasized the strengths of the Pioneer Kuros. Jez, the event began with the organizer stating upfront how he was partial to Pioneers.

BTW, anyone else think that it was odd that they did NOT have any of the new non-Elite Kuros? Could it be that perhaps their lack of calibration controls would have placed them at a competitive disadvantage? Just speculating.

Just got home. Sorry I missed the live feed. Anyone know if there will be any room darkening technology available tomorrow? (a 50th generation Kuro to suck all the light out of the room or something) I just realized that we'll be watching in full daylight. Yikes! I hadn't thought of how that would affect the picture.

except that they were calibrated by an unbiased party, a highly regarded ISF calibrator. Sure pioneer was there, but that in no way changed the results. They merely talked. The kuros would have won whether they were there or not. Simple. Its not like they messed up the other screens.


I thought I heard kevin mention that one of the advantages of the Pioneer elite was the ability to have a full calibration via the user menu. He said the other panels were limited because of the user settings. Even from the live feed video I could tell that the 5010 was in warm color temp and was not calibrated via the service menu for mid temp and D65. I am pretty sure he calibrated all televisions by the user menus.

BTW, anyone else think that it was odd that they did NOT have any of the new non-Elite Kuros? Could it be that perhaps their lack of calibration controls would have placed them at a competitive disadvantage? Just speculating.


Seems more like you are leading?

Vashti,

They had the windows and doors covered so that light was not an issue. At 7PMish (when they started today) there was plenty of light.

Just got home. Sorry I missed the live feed. Anyone know if there will be any room darkening technology available tomorrow? (a 50th generation Kuro to suck all the light out of the room or something) I just realized that we'll be watching in full daylight. Yikes! I hadn't thought of how that would affect the picture.

BTW, anyone else think that it was odd that they did NOT have any of the new non-Elite Kuros? Could it be that perhaps their lack of calibration controls would have placed them at a competitive disadvantage? Just speculating.

Robert explained, captured on video feed, that he wanted to show the the improvement of the Kuro since the prior generation. He offered to display the 5020 for the Saturday session. Somehow, I'm not seeing the conspiracy.

Just got home. Sorry I missed the live feed. Anyone know if there will be any room darkening technology available tomorrow? (a 50th generation Kuro to suck all the light out of the room or something) I just realized that we'll be watching in full daylight. Yikes! I hadn't thought of how that would affect the picture.


Well, ambient light (not reflections) have me thinking of returning my 151 after 3 weeks of critical viewing. Granted my TV room is a torture test for ambient light with 20 windows and 2 skylights, but the only mode which is tolerable in daylight is performance mode. Pure,movie and standard don't stand a chance. Optimum gets close. Sad thing is a Sharp 65 LCD outperforms it in daytime (night-time just the opposite, of course).
Now thinking that I need 10G,10 lumen technology for this room, and from Robert's broadcast tonight that sounds like it's 18 months away.

i would say throw the 650 or 750 samsung LCD!!! LCD!!! into the mix just to see how it stacks up against the plasmas...

a bunch of us are curious :D

Robert explained, captured on video feed, that he wanted to show the the improvement of the Kuro since the prior generation. He offered to display the 5020 for the Saturday session. Somehow, I'm not seeing the conspiracy.After the pro-Pioneer intro and Miller's demonstrated lack of understanding of the Samsung, I stopped watching. I generally fast-forward through commercials.

So, a before/after demo of Pioneer technology. Did they have a before/after demo for Panasonics, who also greatly improved their black level since last year's model? What's the innocent explanation for not fully calibrating the Samsung? What's the innocent explanation for an event organized and attended by Pioneer boosters. Do you really believe that an event organized and attended by Samsung or Panasonic reps or by any of the other competitors would have been presented the same?

I am amazed by the willing refusal to recognize the difference between a starightforward and objective comparison and commerce.

^+1

You seem to have a quite a strong feeling about this event.

I'm sure they would have taken your help if you offered.

You seem to have a quite a strong feeling about this event.

I'm sure they would have taken your help if you offered.Yes, I do. I thought it was going to be something other than what it was--a process of discovery, rather than an event engineered to promote a product line. I was looking forward to it, so yea, I guess I am a little pissed.

Understood...but they asked for nothing from us so I don't expect anything from it.
Bench tests, as you would know, are what to look at and learn from.
Plus calibration reports and your own eyes.
I don't think anything could have been 'discovered' that isn't know about any of the panels at either days' event.

I thought I heard kevin mention that one of the advantages of the Pioneer elite was the ability to have a full calibration via the user menu. He said the other panels were limited because of the user settings. Even from the live feed video I could tell that the 5010 was in warm color temp and was not calibrated via the service menu for mid temp and D65. I am pretty sure he calibrated all televisions by the user menus.

The LG PG60 also allows for FULL Service Menu Calibration which also was display & calibrated by Kevin

What's the innocent explanation for not fully calibrating the Samsung?

:confused: Who said the Samsung wasn't fully calibrated? I was under the impression that all sets displayed were fully calibrated by an independent professional calibrator, Kevin Miller.

If you're looking for bias, you're going to find it. But, it isn't as if Samsung, Panasonic, LG, Toshiba, or you volunteered to participate and were turned down the opportunity to defend their sets. And, it isn't as if people attending were forced to watch the Kuro and disregard their eyes about the strengths of other sets. There's limited space and Robert made decisions based on what he felt was best. I'm sure if there was unlimited wall space, he would have accommodated even the Vizios. Nothing stops any of these other companies, or any other merchant, from holding their own independent shoot-out to try to get different results. Something tells me that's not likely.

Yes, I do. I thought it was going to be something other than what it was--a process of discovery, rather than an event engineered to promote a product line. I was looking forward to it, so yea, I guess I am a little pissed.

...over this? Priorities, priorities.

After the pro-Pioneer intro and Miller's demonstrated lack of understanding of the Samsung, I stopped watching. I generally fast-forward through commercials.

So, a before/after demo of Pioneer technology. Did they have a before/after demo for Panasonics, who also greatly improved their black level since last year's model? What's the innocent explanation for not fully calibrating the Samsung? What's the innocent explanation for an event organized and attended by Pioneer boosters. Do you really believe that an event organized and attended by Samsung or Panasonic reps or by any of the other competitors would have been presented the same?

I am amazed by the willing refusal to recognize the difference between a starightforward and objective comparison and commerce.

Tom,

Don't believe anyone. They all have their conflict of interest. Robert wants to sell more panels regardless of brand. Kevin Miller wants more ISF tuning business, Pioneer wants to sell more Kuro, current Kuro owners want to "justify" their purchase and "convince" other people to join their camp, ... etc.

It may be a big Pioneer commercial. But who cares. I was there. Other than gas and toll, I got free foods, free drinks, chance to chat with a lot of AV enthusiasts, nice lesson from Kevin, D-nice, Robert, and others. Watch 20+ minutes of extremely high quality BD God Father. All of those, priceless (FREE).

Me, I am just trying to help out and let others to enjoy the event as much. If you don't like it, then don't watch it. Pioneer, Samsung, Panasonic, LG, Toshiba, Sony, Sharp ... etc, they are all evil because they all are trying to get your hard earn money. Almost forget, Vizio, Maxent, Westinghouse, ... etc. maybe even more evil because they take your money and hurt your eyes at the same time.

:confused: Who said the Samsung wasn't fully calibrated? I was under the impression that all sets displayed were fully calibrated by an independent professional calibrator, Kevin Miller.Yes, I know that you were under that impression. That's the problem.

Please read my previous post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14322435&postcount=419) on this.

Robert, a special thanks for putting on this event, and only wish I could have attended in person. I especially would've enjoyed seeing & hearing all the integrated Pioneer HT components playing together. I'll be following your AVS posts, and look forward to your comments.

SoSo, another thanks to you for setting the feed, and hopefully you'll have it available for future viewing. My connection was disrupted partially through the event, and would like to see a re-play.

So the big question is were all displays properly calibrated by user and service menu controls or just what was available in the user menu?

Don't believe anyone. They all have their conflict of interest. Robert wants to sell more panels regardless of brand. Kevin Miller wants more ISF tuning business, Pioneer wants to sell more Kuro, current Kuro owners want to "justify" their purchase and "convince" other people to join their camp, ... etc.

It may be a big Pioneer commercial. But who cares. I was there. Other than gas and toll, I got free foods, free drinks, chance to chat with a lot of AV enthusiasts, nice lesson from Kevin, D-nice, Robert, and others. Watch 20+ minutes of extremely high quality BD God Father. All of those, priceless (FREE).

Me, I am just trying to help out and let others to enjoy the event as much. If you don't like it, then don't watch it. Pioneer, Samsung, Panasonic, LG, Toshiba, Sony, Sharp ... etc, they are all evil because they all are trying to get your hard earn money. Almost forget, Vizio, Maxent, Westinghouse, ... etc. maybe even more evil because they take your money and hurt your eyes at the same time.I'm guessing that hidden inside the sarcasm there's a point here somewhere.

I wasn't criticizing you. In fact, I appreciate the effort. I also wasn't calling companies "evil" for trying to turn a buck, nor did I refuse to "believe anyone." I did believe what I heard. That's the problem.

I was annoyed because an event discussed here as a "shootout" was nothing of the kind. It was a rather transparent promotional event. Had it been described that way in advance, I would have no reason to complain, but it wasn't, so I do. I was also annoyed by Mr. Miller's failure to sufficiently familiarize himself with the displays he was calibrating so they could be evaluated on an even playing field. If you care enough about this stuff to go to the effort you did, you should be annoyed by that too.

So the big question is were all displays properly calibrated by user and service menu controls or just what was available in the user menu?


My strong impression was the latter.

I own a Kuro and a Panny and thus am fairly neutral. Robert is a wonderful host and all of us on this forum are enriched by his gracious help and info sharing. However, Tom has a point. One learned little about the non-Pio panels during the event, though posting of the calibration spreadsheet will help. The last 40 mins of the broadcast was a Kuro commercial. I still enjoyed it but I can readily see why Tom was disappointed.

Yeah, I'm with Tom on this one. As much fun as it was, calling it a "shootout" was false advertising.

My strong impression was the latter.All of the Samsung's really neat and powerful calibration controls--including the CMS that KM was oblivious to--are in the user menu. There's no need for service access.

Well it was nice to get together with other AVS members and enjoy our hobby as obsessive as we may be.
I think a special thanks should go out to Robert for taking the time out to put an event like this together. For those attending tomorrow check out the back room.
Thanks SoSo for putting together the internet stream, sorry about the valuee feed dropping out half way but in an attempt to elevate the laptop and camera. The power plug had worked loose and the battery ran down my bad (sorry)

Now down to buisness.

As far as black level alone goes the Pio 111 is the darkest followed by the Pio 5010 and than the panasonic. Compared to these three the samsung, LG and Toshiba do not come close. What did the extra level of black add? Well when they showed the BluRay run of the God Father there were low light scenes were you could make out more detail on the textured wall paper in the background.

We all know that black level is not the only value to measure a panel but it does add depth to the color and overall picture. Color decoder differences were also noticed. The panasonic and the Pio 111 were perceived to be the most accurate. This was mostly noticable on flesh tones. The Pio 5010 had a noticable red tint at times and the samsung seemed to oversaturate fleshtones as well as have this red tint at times on flesh tones.

If you are noticing I really have not mentioned the LG or Toshiba the reasons are the Toshiba looked like a flashlight in a dark room and the LG had the lightest blacks of the remaining 5.

I did have a good observation about the Toshiba. When the room lights were turned up all the way (actually brighter than a BB store) the Toshiba seemed to have better blacks and slightly better whites than the other 5. That is about the only advantage the Toshiba had, IMO if your media room is that bright you should be reported to the national energy commission.

As soon as the lights were dimmed to normal levels all panels started to look close except for the color decoder differences mentioned above. When the lights went out then the black level winners showed their stuff.

Another observation was the ability to process video smoothly. The ones that seemed to do the best were the pio's followed by the panasonic then the samsung. As much as I tried to pay attention to the LG I just naturally kept going back to the Pio's Panny and sammy.

After the main event was over and the overhead lights were turned up a little, I started to see the lights effect on the panel material. The panasonic lightened the most very similar to how some old CRT's looked if off and strong light was shining on the screen. The Pio's were acceptably dark when black was shown. The samsung and LG were between the Pio and Panny. Again this is the only strong point of the toshiba.

So if was to be opening up my wallet and parting with my hard earned dollars I would Pick the Pio 111 first, The panasonic second (based on color decoder accuracy not black level) and then the Pio 5010.

Kevin Miller had some informative points to be made about ISF calibration and I appreciate him taking the time to Calibrate all the displays.

Robert (and gang), thank you for putting this together and for the good food.:):)

SoSo, thanks for putting the internet stream together at the last minute so others could share in our obsessions.

D-Nice thanks for making the drive up and sharing your knowledge and experience with other AVS members.

Robert had mentioned they would try and get a 5020 inplace of the 5010.
He also was going to post the Cal results from Kevin.

Those of you going saturday have a great time.:D:D

[QUOTE=My connection was disrupted partially through the event, and would like to see a re-play.[/QUOTE]



http://www.mogulus.com/soso

Thanks eddiscus!! Wonderful comments. I really appreciate it. And I really have failed miserably in my attempt not to read anything about the event before going. Oh well. I better get some sleep. I've got an early train to catch.

I think some of us had high hopes for a panel comparison which included lit vs. dark viewing, and SD content along with HD. I personally would have liked to see results that gave a tangible rating or reading (if applicable) how well each panel performed in various aspects like blacks, color, NR, sharpening, etc.

I feel in the realm they were tested, black-out viewing, no on-board audio and HD content only, they should be comparing reference panels like the 101 and 141 and projectors.

I totally agree, SoSo.

I was there and during the test patterns-it was clear the 111 had the best blacks. The color are what they are with the test patterns because without references-everything is subjective. I will tell though, just as avs2avs said it is very rare to have all these sets ISF calibrated. After we got to see a short sneak peak of the upcoming Godfather.We saw the whole dynamic range with the Godfather- from the begining dark scene of Don Corleone's office to the bright outside wedding scene and pretty much right away it was clear the 111 was the best. There was no bias as the lights were off and all we did was watch the clip. I wasn't talked into anything. I, just for myself compared the sets with my own eyes and felt right away the 111 was best. I say this confidently because what I thought was the second best set was the 5010 and it was not a close second at all, meaning I noticed the improvements right away. What I thought was the third was the Samsung and the Panasonic fourth. I thought the Samsung had better blacks and detail and with that it had more pop than the Panasonic.

This is what I felt, but it's not written in stone.

Also, I truly want to thank Robert and his wife for this event. It is really damm hard work to pull off this event. They went all out with the food and drinks and guest speakers-Thanks to everybody at VALUE ELECTRONICS.

Last, but not least-Thank You very much D-Nice. You are the man, I learned so much!

Well, while I wanted to be there I am not totally surprised by some of the comments.
So the calibration wasn't performed on all sets? Well what was the point other than to further market Pioneer. Also, the newer Pioneers weren't demo'd? Geez, whatevah!
Well I suppose this event served as a way for people here to meet & greet.

I was annoyed because an event discussed here as a "shootout" was nothing of the kind. It was a rather transparent promotional event. Had it been described that way in advance, I would have no reason to complain, but it wasn't, so I do. I was also annoyed by Mr. Miller's failure to sufficiently familiarize himself with the displays he was calibrating so they could be evaluated on an even playing field. If you care enough about this stuff to go to the effort you did, you should be annoyed by that too.

After watching the entire broadcast, I definitely agree that it was more of a Pioneer marketing event than a shootout. I also agree that KM seemed unprepared, considering his lack of knowledge (according to you) about the samsung, and also questions that he asked DNice about the non-Elite that have already been covered here in the forums (like removed features). I will still give KM the benefit of the doubt and wait to see how he says he calibrated the 650. All that said, I think the event was awesome and very informative for Pioneer fans/owners. I also feel that even if the samsung was properly/fully calibrated, the 111 would still have mopped the floor with it. I bet even the 5010 would also beat a calibrated sammy 650 with ease.

I think that Pioneers naturally find their way to the top because they are the best plasmas made. It's almost as simple as natural selection. If you held a Samsung-based shootout with samsungs reps, etc, and had kuros next to them, the kuros would still steal the show - imo, even if the sammys were calibrated and the kuros were not. You can't magically calibrate the blacks to make them blacker. I also would bet that the inaccurate color points of an uncalibrated kuro would still look better than the colors of a calibrated sammy because black levels enhance and make colors appear deeper.

I would like to know if Panasonic's THX mode was used during the shootout from someone who was there. From everything I have read about the 800u, the only way to achieve accurate primaries and secondaries is using the THX setting. I realize the blacks are still going to pale next to the Kuros but some comments about how the picture compares to a calibrated Pioneer from a calibrated Panny with the THX engaged would be helpful and the fairest comparison of the two sets.

I applaud Robert and everyone else and SOSO's work but this event should've been titled the KURO Shootout if we're going to be honest here folks.

Below I posted in the Elite thread where UMR rated the Kuro as the best and he made similar statements I've read on the Samsungs post calibration he performed in the past so it combines his findings and this event which simply could never be considered a Shootout that has objectivity and let's be honest post calibration positive posts generate business.

I find with such postings that you calibrate and take and post your numbers as if external factors to the TV itself have no impact on what the viewer can SEE. Your test results and other professionals that tout this Kuro as King don't have any way of measuring the ambient and real daylight with homes that have tall arched windows and a southern exposure or windows on multiple sides as if we all live in apartments with 8' ceilings and 3' windows.

Are you saying that this Kuro because of it's internal readings alone can be in denial of what the mighty sun and reflections can do to any plasma in daylight viewing? Why is it that none of you ever test for real life viewing environments especially when night time occurs at nearly 10PM.

Just look at the way they controlled the lighting at this so called Shootout which was anything but objective. While I applaud Robert and all the work it took the event was so slanted toward Kuro it was absurd, Pio Rep's, T-Shirts, and multiple Kuro's up on the wall and the highlight of it's strengths and total denial of LCD strengths and the reason they outsell plasma and will continue to do so.

A turn down the lights event shootout - I've not seen a single professional reviewer ever base their opinion on real life environments for daytime viewing in sunny rooms or walking into a CE store and whats up on the wall and the reality five times reviewing the Kuro up on the wall in normal light it has always been dim and dull and inferior to the Samsung 650/750 and XBR series.

So if you had a Sunny Daytime viewing room are you telling us you'd place your money on a Kuro versus the best Samsung LCD's you've calibrated?:)

Other factors that made no sense are the chosen viewing modes and settings despite calibration. My point is I can tweak my own panel to it's best but in certain view modes it can turn the viewing experience into crap - some view modes simply suck no matter how it's calibrated on certain panels and so I wonder what Samsung owners thought of the chosen view modes and settings as it makes a huge difference.

Also, not a single Sony or Samsung LED LCD and I did not notice an SE94 series Sharp and I could not tell what edition of Toshiba was up there but they enjoyed picking on it except for when it's white levels beat the Kuro and Kevin had them retest the Kuro several times to what appeared his dismay/disappointment.

This was a good Promo for the Pio Kuro Fan Club and of course those that have a contolled lighting viewing room where it may rule admittedly but some of us live in reality of our environment which may not suit us with a Plasma having tried it out actually and it miserably failed in that reality. :)

This Shootout certainly could not touch the LCos Shootout done in the past By Dr. Raymond Soneira, President DisplayMate Technologies Corp and ExtremeTech done in four parts and much more professional and objective. http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1917485,00.asp

I applaud Robert and everyone else and SOSO's work but this event should've been titled the KURO Shootout if we're going to be honest here folks.

Below I posted in the Elite thread where UMR rated the Kuro as the best and made similar statements I've read on the Samsung post calibration so it combines his findings and this event which simply could never be considered a Shootout that has objectivity and let's be honest post calibration positive posts generate business.

I find with such postings that you calibrate and take and post your numbers as if external factors to the TV itself have no impact on what the viewer can SEE. Your test results and other professionals that tout this Kuro as King don't have any way of measuring the ambient and real daylight with homes that have tall arched windows and a southern exposure or windows on multiple sides as if we all live in apartments with 8' ceilings.

Are you saying that this Kuro because of it's internal readings alone can be in denial of what the mighty sun and reflections can do to any plasma in daylight viewing? Why is it that none of you ever test for real life viewing environments especially when night time occurs at nearly 10PM.

Just look at the way they controlled the lighting at this so called Shootout which was anything but objective. While I applaud Robert and all the work it took the event was so slanted toward Kuro it was absurd, Pio Rep's, T-Shirts, and multiple Kuro's up on the wall and the highlight of it's strengths and total denial of LCD strengths and the reason they outsell plasma and will continue to do so.

A turn down the lights event shootout - I've not seen a single professional reviewer ever base their opinion on real life environments for daytime viewing in sunny rooms or walking into a CE store and whats up on the wall and the reality five times reviewing the Kuro up on the wall in normal light it has always been dim and dull and inferior to the Samsung 650/750 and XBR series.

So if you had a Sunny Daytime viewing room are you telling us you'd place your money on a Kuro versus the best Samsung LCD's you've calibrated?:)

Well, I'm headed up today, and while I figured there might be some Kuro bias (with Pioneer reps present, plus the Kuro blacks would give them away even if all the bezels are covered, so the real question would be which of the other displays looked good), I still see this as an opportunity to check out the Samsung and Toshiba. Both have garnered positive reviews, and I willl look at each panel on its own terms as well as in comparison to the Pioneers. I am looking to buy something this year, and the best blacks, even the best PQ, doesn't necessarily mean the best TV for my needs. A balance of PQ, features and price is what I want. I'm not as technical as many on these forums, but I am particular about what I want. That the 9G Kuros lack something on my list puts these other sets in play.

Critical viewing evaluation with full ambient light? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Very true and very funny! :D

Just got home. Sorry I missed the live feed. Anyone know if there will be any room darkening technology available tomorrow? (a 50th generation Kuro to suck all the light out of the room or something) I just realized that we'll be watching in full daylight. Yikes! I hadn't thought of how that would affect the picture.

Brilliant minds think alike Vashti. I had mentioned that last night in the other shootout thread. If I had thought about it, I think I might have gone last night instead. Hopefully Robert can darken the store sufficiently.

Well, ambient light (not reflections) have me thinking of returning my 151 after 3 weeks of critical viewing. Granted my TV room is a torture test for ambient light with 20 windows and 2 skylights, but the only mode which is tolerable in daylight is performance mode. Pure,movie and standard don't stand a chance. Optimum gets close. Sad thing is a Sharp 65 LCD outperforms it in daytime (night-time just the opposite, of course).
Now thinking that I need 10G,10 lumen technology for this room, and from Robert's broadcast tonight that sounds like it's 18 months away.

For super-bright rooms, most of us have always recommended LCDs. Kuros are at their best when viewed critically in dark environments. No plasma can compete with an LCD in a sun-bathed environment.

Very true and very funny! :D

Unless you're evaluating the set's performance in such an environment, maybe.

After the pro-Pioneer intro and Miller's demonstrated lack of understanding of the Samsung, I stopped watching. I generally fast-forward through commercials.

So, a before/after demo of Pioneer technology. Did they have a before/after demo for Panasonics, who also greatly improved their black level since last year's model? What's the innocent explanation for not fully calibrating the Samsung? What's the innocent explanation for an event organized and attended by Pioneer boosters. Do you really believe that an event organized and attended by Samsung or Panasonic reps or by any of the other competitors would have been presented the same?

I am amazed by the willing refusal to recognize the difference between a starightforward and objective comparison and commerce.

Not an overly long drive from Maryland, Tom. You should come up and share this limitless expertise you have and enlighten all of us who are not so blessed. Some of ths most highly respected ISF folks could learn so much from you. Better yet, why don't you conduct your own shootout at your own expense, invite us all, and show us how it's done. :rolleyes:

Well, while I wanted to be there I am not totally surprised by some of the comments.
So the calibration wasn't performed on all sets? Well what was the point other than to further market Pioneer. Also, the newer Pioneers weren't demo'd? Geez, whatevah!
Well I suppose this event served as a way for people here to meet & greet.

Calibration was performed on all sets.

This was a good Promo for the Pio Kuro Fan Club and of course those that have a contolled lighting viewing room where it may rule admittedly but some of us live in reality of our environment which may not suit us with a Plasma having tried it out actually and it miserably failed in that reality. :)



Some of you guys simply amaze me. These sets WERE calibrated and in doing so, there are certain settings that do NOT take into account room characteristics. The calibration is designed to meet a STANDARD, not your room lighting. If you want to raise the brightness, sharpness, color etc. to better suit your tastes, then do so...but be certain that you've just blown a calibration matched to a standard. Hey, I use CS1 on my Pioneer Kuro and know full well it doesn't match Rec709. Frankly I don't care because to me it more closely mimics real life. But guys, a standard is a STANDARD.

Westa's comments don't surprise me in the least since I've read about 100 iterations of them over the years from him. He's an LCD fan and simply bristles at the thought that a plasma could be better than his Sharp. For him, the Sharp is best...so leave it at that. But so many of these guys insist on polluting every Pioneer thread to throw dirt and muck on any finding that contradicts what they think is best.

Now, for the shootout, here again I'm just amazed reading these posts, AMAZED. Some facts worth repeating that Soso mentioned:

* Yes, Robert is in the business of selling product. Does that shock anyone? Do you guys work for a living? Do you sell product or work for someone that does?

* Yes, Kevin Miller, one of the most respected ISF techs around (he did my 64" Zenith HD RPTV and did a damn good job) is in the business of selling ISF services. Does that shock anyone? Do you guys sell a service for a living? Do you work for someone that does?

* Yes, Pioneer is in business to sell Pioneers. Does that shock anyone?

* Yes, ALL the displays were calibrated but I can't attest to the one poster's comments about one of them not being properly calibrated.

* Objective measurements were taken. Instrumentation does not have a bias and I don't believe these results were skewed to favor one brand or the other.

* We have all read many many reviews on the Kuros and virtually every single one comes to the same conclusion, the Kuros are simply the best displays around. So why are people shocked when they read the same conclusions were drawn at this event too? Of course subjectivity, room lighting, cost and other factors come in to play that might make someone choose a different display. Nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong about trying to contest the fact that the Kuros do a better job of showing material the way it was meant to be shown.

* Robert went out of his way to put this event on. Yes, it does have a leaning toward Pioneer, but if any of you are true videophiles, how could you test all these displays and not come away with a Pioneer bias?

Thanks again to Robert & Wendy for putting on a great event.

OK, I feel better. :D

well i saw a web version of soso channel http://www.mogulus.com/soso from the point where robert i belive introduced km to the point where people were leaving and their was music and food. i also think this is only 1 video and their might be more, KM pointed out that he tried to put best most accurate out of the tvs not just the pioneers or sammys or pannys but all in general. as everyone assumed the pioneer came in first then i belive the panasonic fellowed by the samsung. yes it did aproch like a pioneer event only i wasnt suprised to knew that the Pioneer PRO-111 was the clear winner. AS everyone wants to know bottom line what is the best tv for PQ that money can buy, again the PRO-111.

I thought I heard kevin mention that one of the advantages of the Pioneer elite was the ability to have a full calibration via the user menu. He said the other panels were limited because of the user settings. Even from the live feed video I could tell that the 5010 was in warm color temp and was not calibrated via the service menu for mid temp and D65. I am pretty sure he calibrated all televisions by the user menus.

If Kevin only calibrated the non Pioneer TVs by user menus than that wouldn't be fair, would it? But, I do think that the Sammy 650 has all the options needed in its User Menu to perform a decent calibration. I also would have preferred the Panasonic 850u because it too has pretty much all the adjustments needed in its User Menu for a good calibration, while the 800u does not.

You are always gonna have the LCD fanboys try to rain on any Plasma parade. But the reality is that we are talking about Home theatre enthusiasts, where the best picture is produced with low lighting. We don't care about when the sun is shining on the screen. We don't watch movies in lighted rooms. In a darkened environment plasma crushes LCD, and whats more LCD's picture degraded VERY quickly off axis. That's loads of fun for a home theatre:rolleyes:

So save the rants about how "biased" this shootout was for the LCD forum backslapping. And enjoy your movies with the light streaming into the room and onto the screen.:D

Please explain if this was not a subjective KURO Shootout why in the world were there three versions of Kuro up on the wall?

If the panel is so Superior why were three versions needed - you'd think you could pull one version out of the box and calibrate it and make room for more competition up on that wall to compare? Please explain this?

I don't see three versions of Samsung(1), Sony(0), Sharp(0), Panny(1)Zero LED LCD, et al - this limited competition and weighted in favor of this KURO Shootout.

Why were THREE KINGS needed for a Shootout? :D

Now thinking that I need 10G,10 lumen technology for this room, and from Robert's broadcast tonight that sounds like it's 18 months away.

I think he meant the 10G not 10 Lumen Technology.
Anyway, I do not believe that the 10G panels will not be available until January 2010. It does not make sense that Panasonic and Pioneer would not introduce 0 Luminescence/5 Lumen technology for the 2009 Christmas season.

Panasonic does not pre-announce product to avoid depressing the sale of the current line. My guess, is that is what we are seeing here.

- Rich

Others have already stated which panels were in the shootout, as well as their thoughts on the outcome. In an effort to avoid being redundant, I only wish to share my thoughts on the event.

1) Robert, Wendy and the staff @ **************** deserve nothing less than the highest praise for the effort and energy they put forth to make this happen. To all of you, Thank You!

2) Kevin Miller's presentation was spectacular. From his explanation of ISF Calibration through his detailed findings for each of the panels I learned more than I ever could by reading. Kevin, I look forward to having you calibrate my new Kuro!

3) D-Nice, there is so much to say about this man. Not only is he knowledgeable and dedicated, he is also one of the "nicest", most unselfish people I have ever had the opportunity to meet. Any person that chooses to leave their home at 4:30 AM to arrive at a 7:00 PM event deserves to be recognized for their unwavering passion as well as their contributions. We should all be grateful for how he has educated all of us!

4) It was a great experience and I am thankful I was able to be a part of it.

David

I'm guessing that hidden inside the sarcasm there's a point here somewhere.

I wasn't criticizing you. In fact, I appreciate the effort. I also wasn't calling companies "evil" for trying to turn a buck, nor did I refuse to "believe anyone." I did believe what I heard. That's the problem.

I was annoyed because an event discussed here as a "shootout" was nothing of the kind. It was a rather transparent promotional event. Had it been described that way in advance, I would have no reason to complain, but it wasn't, so I do. I was also annoyed by Mr. Miller's failure to sufficiently familiarize himself with the displays he was calibrating so they could be evaluated on an even playing field. If you care enough about this stuff to go to the effort you did, you should be annoyed by that too.

I have to agree with you. I expected to hear the strengths and weaknesses of each product.This would help people make a more informed purchasing decision. Maybe another product's blacks were close enough and it may be worth buying over the Kuro and it's premium price. It would be nice if someone talked about the spreadsheet results (or post the results here). What were the rankings? Anyone?

Please explain if this was not a subjective KURO Shootout why in the world were there three versions of Kuro up on the wall?

I just saw 2 Kuros :confused:

2) Kevin Miller's presentation was spectacular. From his explanation of ISF Calibration through his detailed findings for each of the panels I learned more than I ever could by reading.

Maybe we missed some of Kevin's findings on each set, can you give us more info about what he said?

Where can I see the feed from the shootout from yesterday? I saw a brief thing from So-So's webpage, but that was censored due to copyrighted material. Is there anywhere else?

I just received my 5020 yesterday and was really excited to see the results from the shootout but as soon as i saw the girl in the KURO shirt i had a suspicion the event was going to be biased. I really appreciate Robert putting the event together but when you connect the dots it isn't hard to see why the event was held.

Please explain if this was not a subjective KURO Shootout why in the world were there three versions of Kuro up on the wall?

If the panel is so Superior why were three versions needed - you'd think you could pull one version out of the box and calibrate it and make room for more competition up on that wall to compare? Please explain this?

I don't see three versions of Samsung(1), Sony(0), Sharp(0), Panny(1)Zero LED LCD, et al - this limited competition and weighted in favor of this KURO Shootout.

Why were THREE KINGS needed for a Shootout? :D

There were 2, not 3.

I think that Pioneers naturally find their way to the top because they are the best plasmas made. It's almost as simple as natural selection. If you held a Samsung-based shootout with samsungs reps, etc, and had kuros next to them, the kuros would still steal the show - imo, even if the sammys were calibrated and the kuros were not. You can't magically calibrate the blacks to make them blacker. I also would bet that the inaccurate color points of an uncalibrated kuro would still look better than the colors of a calibrated sammy because black levels enhance and make colors appear deeper.


The thing is when you compare something like a kuro vs lcd, or another brighter plasma, is black levels is not the end all. Brightness plays a major factor as well. I wonder how did the kuro's do with bright scenes, sharpness, pop, wow factor. Of course the kuros do great with blacks, but many scenes in movies can be dominated by bright scenes. The godfather is fitting to show off the kuro, it has torture testing black scenes.

A fascinating thread. I do hope it's viable some day down the road to have a part 2 where we have something like the TV's used in this shootout vs. the new Sony XBr8's and equivalent Samsung LCDs (950?)

Nice work everyone. :)

I applaud Robert and everyone else and SOSO's work but this event should've been titled the KURO Shootout if we're going to be honest here folks.

Below I posted in the Elite thread where UMR rated the Kuro as the best and he made similar statements I've read on the Samsungs post calibration he performed in the past so it combines his findings and this event which simply could never be considered a Shootout that has objectivity and let's be honest post calibration positive posts generate business.

I find with such postings that you calibrate and take and post your numbers as if external factors to the TV itself have no impact on what the viewer can SEE. Your test results and other professionals that tout this Kuro as King don't have any way of measuring the ambient and real daylight with homes that have tall arched windows and a southern exposure or windows on multiple sides as if we all live in apartments with 8' ceilings and 3' windows.

Are you saying that this Kuro because of it's internal readings alone can be in denial of what the mighty sun and reflections can do to any plasma in daylight viewing? Why is it that none of you ever test for real life viewing environments especially when night time occurs at nearly 10PM.

Just look at the way they controlled the lighting at this so called Shootout which was anything but objective. While I applaud Robert and all the work it took the event was so slanted toward Kuro it was absurd, Pio Rep's, T-Shirts, and multiple Kuro's up on the wall and the highlight of it's strengths and total denial of LCD strengths and the reason they outsell plasma and will continue to do so.

A turn down the lights event shootout - I've not seen a single professional reviewer ever base their opinion on real life environments for daytime viewing in sunny rooms or walking into a CE store and whats up on the wall and the reality five times reviewing the Kuro up on the wall in normal light it has always been dim and dull and inferior to the Samsung 650/750 and XBR series.

So if you had a Sunny Daytime viewing room are you telling us you'd place your money on a Kuro versus the best Samsung LCD's you've calibrated?:)

Other factors that made no sense are the chosen viewing modes and settings despite calibration. My point is I can tweak my own panel to it's best but in certain view modes it can turn the viewing experience into crap - some view modes simply suck no matter how it's calibrated on certain panels and so I wonder what Samsung owners thought of the chosen view modes and settings as it makes a huge difference.

Also, not a single Sony or Samsung LED LCD and I did not notice an SE94 series Sharp and I could not tell what edition of Toshiba was up there but they enjoyed picking on it except for when it's white levels beat the Kuro and Kevin had them retest the Kuro several times to what appeared his dismay/disappointment.

This was a good Promo for the Pio Kuro Fan Club and of course those that have a contolled lighting viewing room where it may rule admittedly but some of us live in reality of our environment which may not suit us with a Plasma having tried it out actually and it miserably failed in that reality. :)

This Shootout certainly could not touch the LCos Shootout done in the past By Dr. Raymond Soneira, President DisplayMate Technologies Corp and ExtremeTech done in four parts and much more professional and objective. http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1917485,00.asp

Well, UMR did clearly say the 111 is the best display on the market so far.
Alos, why would anyone do critical viewing tests in ambuient daylight?
Do PJ owners watch films in light? Do movie theaters have light?

You know full well that there are differences between different Kuro's. With your logic, why not use the lowest end Sammy lcd, and same with the rest.

The thing is when you compare something like a kuro vs lcd, or another brighter plasma, is black levels is not the end all. Brightness plays a major factor as well. I wonder how did the kuro's do with bright scenes, sharpness, pop, wow factor. Of course the kuros do great with blacks, but many scenes in movies can be dominated by bright scenes. The godfather is fitting to show off the kuro, it has torture testing black scenes.

Black level leads to higher ansi contrast...which is the 'pop' you speak of.
Brightness is a calibration issue and I've yet to hear of a Kuro being to dim for a proper calibration ftl.
Sharpness comes from the sopurce and any decent display has more than enough of it and people who own Kuro's for the most part turn it all the way down/off.(-15)




prepress...what are the 9g's lacking for you?

i would say throw the 650 or 750 samsung LCD!!! LCD!!! into the mix just to see how it stacks up against the plasmas...

a bunch of us are curious :D

I can think of one reason why the 650 750 lcd aint there. And if it was how would it be set up.

Yet to see any revier tap in to its full potential, But I sure do.
Love those brillaint whites hate the dull gray ones.

Some of you guys simply amaze me. These sets WERE calibrated and in doing so, there are certain settings that do NOT take into account room characteristics. The calibration is designed to meet a STANDARD, not your room lighting. If you want to raise the brightness, sharpness, color etc. to better suit your tastes, then do so...but be certain that you've just blown a calibration matched to a standard. Hey, I use CS1 on my Pioneer Kuro and know full well it doesn't match Rec709. Frankly I don't care because to me it more closely mimics real life. But guys, a standard is a STANDARD.

Westa's comments don't surprise me in the least since I've read about 100 iterations of them over the years from him. He's an LCD fan and simply bristles at the thought that a plasma could be better than his Sharp. For him, the Sharp is best...so leave it at that. But so many of these guys insist on polluting every Pioneer thread to throw dirt and muck on any finding that contradicts what they think is best.

Now, for the shootout, here again I'm just amazed reading these posts, AMAZED. Some facts worth repeating that Soso mentioned:

* Yes, Robert is in the business of selling product. Does that shock anyone? Do you guys work for a living? Do you sell product or work for someone that does?

* Yes, Kevin Miller, one of the most respected ISF techs around (he did my 64" Zenith HD RPTV and did a damn good job) is in the business of selling ISF services. Does that shock anyone? Do you guys sell a service for a living? Do you work for someone that does?

* Yes, Pioneer is in business to sell Pioneers. Does that shock anyone?

* Yes, ALL the displays were calibrated but I can't attest to the one poster's comments about one of them not being properly calibrated.

* Objective measurements were taken. Instrumentation does not have a bias and I don't believe these results were skewed to favor one brand or the other.

* We have all read many many reviews on the Kuros and virtually every single one comes to the same conclusion, the Kuros are simply the best displays around. So why are people shocked when they read the same conclusions were drawn at this event too? Of course subjectivity, room lighting, cost and other factors come in to play that might make someone choose a different display. Nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong about trying to contest the fact that the Kuros do a better job of showing material the way it was meant to be shown.

* Robert went out of his way to put this event on. Yes, it does have a leaning toward Pioneer, but if any of you are true videophiles, how could you test all these displays and not come away with a Pioneer bias?

Thanks again to Robert & Wendy for putting on a great event.

OK, I feel better. :D

I'm sure that's all true... But I'm about to pull the trigger on an A650, there's an A650 on the wall and I have yet to find any discussion about it after skipping around the video, watching a total of 45 mins. ALL of the talk was Pioneer.

Can someone tell me at what timestamp they talk about the A650?

UMR posted his post-calibration thoughts.
Pretty sure he got the 'best' out of it.(750)
Yet after calibrating the Pio. Elite 111 he stated it is the best panel to date.(hasn't calibrated a 151 I suppose)

Yes, I do. I thought it was going to be something other than what it was--a process of discovery, rather than an event engineered to promote a product line. I was looking forward to it, so yea, I guess I am a little pissed.

Yep anything but a shootout. Suspected from the start. The word shootout is very misleading.

There was mention early in this thread about taking real life power use readings off these sets (via kill-a-watt meters).
Did that ever happen??

You guys are hilarious.
Why didn't you offer your time, money or effort to the cause?
You can't armchair and criticize if you did nothing. ;)

Hats off to these guys for doing this.

If Samsung or Toshiba or Panasonic want to organize something, or their owners, go right ahead.....then we will have several with different biases and can collectively get all the info. and filter through the b.s.

I am amazed by the willing refusal to recognize the difference between a straightforward and objective comparison and commerce.

I agree. This so-called shootout seems like a joke if you look at it objectively, but objectivity usually seems rare at AVS. Here is a partial list of the deficiencies of this "shootout". Feel free to add more I missed.

1. Multiple Pioneer panels versus only 1 of other mfgr's.
2. No non-Elite Pioneer panels
3. Improperly calibrated Samsung panel
4. No SD viewing testing.
5. Little if any testing in some ambient light.
6. No high end LCD's used in test.

Did you offer any help beforehand?
How about offering even just your opinion when it was asked for several weeks on here prior to the event?

The 5010 was there...non-elite last year Kuro.
Critical viewing of new displays to include SD would take even longer.
Critical viewing in ambient light is an oxymoron.


You still have time before todays event to lend assistance in some way...but I'll bet you just wait and criticize. :rolleyes:




Thank you Robert and D-nice and everyone else involved for giving up their time and effort just to be attacked by fellow avs'ers.

I can think of one reason why the 650 750 lcd aint there. And if it was how would it be set up.

Yet to see any revier tap in to its full potential, But I sure do.
Love those brillaint whites hate the dull gray ones.


I have to imagine a lcd like a sony and samsung have to be blinding bright in the dark. But is it too much where your eyes start watering? :)

I to am looking forward to the posting of the calibration results. But I think it was wise even if by lack of time there were no copies available at the time of viewing. This kept at least my opinion to purly what I saw on screen.

To me having a set that has accurate colors and deep blacks adds a dimension to the picture that LCD has not shown yet. Maybe the XBR8 series can do that. May be if robert has the energy left at the end of the year there could be a comparison between the Pio 111, XBR8 and a few of the other top of the line LCD's.

If your viewing enviorment has high ambient lighting then the LCD's are your choice.

If you lighting can be controlled by all means go plasma. In a dim or dark room the Toshiba could not do near black (dim grey was the best).

To me if a set can produce an average white level it is more important how accurate the colors are and how deep the black can be. Of course if you can have both that would be the holy grail but as of today it is not there.

Again not to repeat my self but in normal room lighting all the displays were great except for color decoding differences and processing capability.

If the red tint on flesh tone could be corrected on the pio 5010 I would place that second, even though it had a better black level than the panasonic. The panasonics color accuracy put it a noch above the 5010's black level.

It will be interesting to see peoples opinion if they have the 5020 up there today.

I am not a fan of any manufacturer just an objective viewer. I have an old Sony 610 series rear projection that has been moved to another room after 5 years of faithful service.

It was replaced by a Pio 150FD only because I felt the color accuracy and the much deeper black level than any display available at that time was what I wanted.

Again as technology moves forward the manufactures are trying to create products that we would want to by. Some people are enticed by glitz and flash. Others are enticed by quality and performance.

To each there own. Lets enjoy the ride.

Did you offer any help beforehand?
How about offering even just your opinion when it was asked for several weeks on here prior to the event?

Oh, so people who didn't help arn't allowed to critique and point out bias? Puhleeze!

Critical viewing of new displays to include SD would take even longer.

Huh? Please explain the extreme difficulty of changing the source feed.

Critical viewing in ambient light is an oxymoron.

Huh? Some plasmas have a more reflective glass. And some of us watch TV in a room with a lamp on. Ergo, wouldn't it cross the minds of the organizers to simulate such an environment and rate that as well? Interesting that one poster who was there said the Toshiba did the best under such conditions.

Thank you Robert and D-nice and everyone else involved for giving up their time and effort just to be attacked by fellow avs'ers.

Face it, Robert and Kevin are hoping to make money off this, so don't be too grateful. It's like thanking someone for having an open house when they are trying to sell their house.

Oh, so people who didn't help arn't allowed to critique and point out bias? Puhleeze!



Huh? Please explain the extreme difficulty of changing the source feed.



Huh? Some plasmas have a more reflective glass. And some of us watch TV in a room with a lamp on. Ergo, wouldn't it cross the minds of the organizers to simulate such an environment and rate that as well? Interesting that one poster who was there said the Toshiba did the best under such conditions.



Face it, Robert is hoping to make money off this, so don't be too grateful.

They are entitled but it makes them look trashy.
Well, they seemed to be there long enough covering what they covered.
Again, why not offer this as a reccomndation beforehand?
News to whom? You watch during the day or have the set right in direct line of a window...get an LCD. IF you watch at night and/or you can control your ambient light at all get a plasma.
Not to mention there are so many owners of all these sets out there that can measure things at home, pro bench tests, etc., that we really know all we could know about them.
want to know which plasma has the least screen glare? Look at how each designs their screens and check the owners threads and pro reviews.


It's very easy to criticize. Why not help, or even organize a different event and run it how you see fit.

When I watch the video, the elite in the center seems to constantly shift its image levels. The other panels mostly just show the image. Is this some weird interaction of refresh rates vs the camera, or an angle thing, or the elite adjusting its image to the room light, or ??? Do other folks see this?
It's weird and distracting in the video, though I'm guessing not visible in real life.

I agree. This so-called shootout seems like a joke if you look at it objectively, but objectivity usually seems rare at AVS. Here is a partial list of the deficiencies of this "shootout". Feel free to add more I missed.

1. Multiple Pioneer panels versus only 1 of other mfgr's.
They had 2 pioneers vs. the top performing displays from Panasonic, toshiba, samsung, and LG.

2. No non-Elite Pioneer panels
Wrong. There was one elite, one non-elite
3. Improperly calibrated Samsung panel
Wrong. Kevin Miller, a highly respected calibrator, spent hours calibrating all panels and did like a 40 page printout on each. You can't say it was improperly calibrated by watching on the webcam and your PC monitor
4. No SD viewing testing.
Who cares? Go buy a 27" tube if you want nice SD.
5. Little if any testing in some ambient light.
Ambient light destroys PQ. Turning the lights off is the first step in any calibration. If your not going to do this, there is NO POINT in calibrating and we may as well just leave 'em all on torch mode
6. No high end LCD's used in test.
Toshiba, a major LCD pusher who invests millions in the tech, had their best LCD represented. The same Toshiba that WON the LCD shootout. The sammy LCD wasn't there as their plasma is a better product for home theater. The samsung LCD would have gotten destroyed as many people were off-axis. The plasma was the more suitable choice.

This debate is getting ridiculous. The pioneer people just stood there, Kevin Miller spent hours with each panel and has pages and pages of readings. All these LCD people have a case of sour grapes.

Plasma is better for proper critical viewing. Removing ambient light is the first step to acheiving anything close to accurate colors and good contrast. Comments like "But what if I want to watch my TV while tanning in the sun?" are meaningless.

When I watch the video, the elite in the center seems to constantly shift its image levels. The other panels mostly just show the image. Is this some weird interaction of refresh rates vs the camera, or an angle thing, or the elite adjusting its image to the room light, or ??? Do other folks see this?
It's weird and distracting in the video, though I'm guessing not visible in real life.

I noticed the same thing and wonder if the 72Hz is the cause seen in a video transmit that local viewers don't see. In fact after the fact the green push I was seeing via the web was the Elite next to the Toshiba and when I saw it I had no idea what panel was what via the web and was going to guess the Toshiba for it's past history and shocked when I found I was looking at the Pioneer during the preshow period so perhaps one of the viewing formats was pushing green temporarily - but the flickering was extremely obvious on that panel during the web feed and I saw none on the others.

To EAGLES:

Please go back and read the lead up to this Shootout every single point that was lacking was recommended and ignored as expected in a subjective shootout.

Point being why not call this what it was - The Kuro Shootout with multiple panels and no ambient light - and BTW how the hell is ambient light an Oxymoron? Thats a reality for many viewing rooms and like others stated they made sure to dim the lights to nothing when reality is most of viewing takes place in Daylight especially March through October.

I think they did a commendable job but I found it lacking in true shootout objectivity a professional shootout would have, yes make a living but don't pretend that it's nothing but a Kuro Presentation to reassert what most of the audience beleived before arriving and only looked for affirmation of that.:D

Also, while the web feed is rather poor quality versus being there I sure the hell saw no huge difference between the Samsung and Pio blacks even when the room was darkened and it certainly didn't hold those blacks when the room lights were on and that is exactly the way it views in the retail stores.

Critical viewing in ambient light is back-asswards.


I agree not everyones reccomendations were taken.
Things could have been done differently, but they did what they did and you didn't have to do anything for it.
So why come bash?

We haven't even heard from the people that attended the event, among which were LCD fans, panny fans and pio fans. Maybe even some sammy fans.
Let's see what their take was.

When I watch the video, the elite in the center seems to constantly shift its image levels. The other panels mostly just show the image. Is this some weird interaction of refresh rates vs the camera, or an angle thing, or the elite adjusting its image to the room light, or ??? Do other folks see this?
It's weird and distracting in the video, though I'm guessing not visible in real life.

This was probably due to the camera syncing strangely with the higher refresh rate of the pioneer. The webcam was choppy remember. The alternate feed (valuee) had no flicker.

I noticed the same thing and wonder if the 72Hz is the cause seen in a video transmit that local viewers don't see. In fact after the fact the green push I was seeing via the web was the Elite next to the Toshiba and when I saw it I had no idea what panel was what via the web and was going to guess the Toshiba for it's past history and shocked when I found I was looking at the Pioneer during the preshow period so perhaps one of the viewing formats was pushing green temporarily - but the flickering was extremely obvious on that panel during the web feed and I saw none on the others.

Westa and all, stop looking for things that weren't there. The webcam feed was obviously far from perfect. You are really grasping here.

The thing is when you compare something like a kuro vs lcd, or another brighter plasma, is black levels is not the end all. Brightness plays a major factor as well. I wonder how did the kuro's do with bright scenes, sharpness, pop, wow factor. Of course the kuros do great with blacks, but many scenes in movies can be dominated by bright scenes. The godfather is fitting to show off the kuro, it has torture testing black scenes.

Well, I think you are hitting on an essential point. Each brand has it's strength. It appears that along with the kuro bias, the emphasis was to highlight kuros in dark scenes. Relatively little mention is being made of the factors in PQ you mentioned.

Also, while the web feed is rather poor quality versus being there I sure the hell saw no huge difference between the Samsung and Pio blacks even when the room was darkened and it certainly didn't hold those blacks when the room lights were on and that is exactly the way it views in the retail stores.

True on the main feed, but the alternate feed showed the black differences really really well. It wasn't even close. We should see if we can get some footage of it.

The order of black levels was 111, 5010, 800u, sammy a650, lg 50pg60, toshiba LCD

You guys are hilarious.
Why didn't you offer your time, money or effort to the cause?
You can't armchair and criticize if you did nothing. ;)

Hats off to these guys for doing this.

If Samsung or Toshiba or Panasonic want to organize something, or their owners, go right ahead.....then we will have several with different biases and can collectively get all the info. and filter through the b.s.

We can agree EAGLES. This has someone has mentioned would have been better called a KURO shootout as opposed to a flat panel shootout.
If Samsung does one like this, it should be called the Sammy shootout!

We can agree EAGLES. This has someone has mentioned would have been better called a KURO shootout as opposed to a flat panel shootout.
If Samsung does one like this, it should be called the Sammy shootout!

IF all panels were calibrated by a highly-respected outside party, and the samsung people just watched, sure, why not.

Remember, the pio people never touched the displays. Not even robert did, he would never have changed kevin's settings.

Paul, no one is stopping them, or even a grassroots from you :)

Critical viewing in ambient light is an oxymoron.

Perhaps but I believe everyone will watch a panel at one time or another with daylight or other ambient lighting. In fact most everyone will watch TV in that mode.
Therefore unlike a theater, viewing with ambient lighting is just as important if not more so.

IF all panels were calibrated by a highly-respected outside party, and the samsung people just watched, sure, why not.

Remember, the pio people never touched the displays. Not even robert did, he would never have changed kevin's settings.

Well, the impression I'm getting from Tom was the Sammy cals did not use the proper or full functionality available from these sets.
Secondly, is it also true that the newer 9G Pioneers were not part of this shootout?

Id rather have a panel that is very good with a couple lights on and fantastic in the proper environment than one that is as good as it can be with the sun shining in full force and poor with the lights out. Really I'd rather have the light ruining the displays strength (plasma) rather than the light masking its weaknesses (LCD).

the only way to get accurate colors and contrast on any tech is to turn down the lights, its simple. Also Its really just direct sun that hurts modern, anti-reflective plasmas. Get some blinds and be done. You can make the room dark and see the source as it was intended, or have some lamp lighting if you wish and it will still look very good. Its nowhere near as bright as a store in any case.

Wrong. Kevin Miller, a highly respected calibrator, spent hours calibrating all panels and did like a 40 page printout on each. You can't say it was improperly calibrated by watching on the webcam and your PC monitor.Wrong. When KM says during his introduction that only the Kuro Elite and the LG have the ability to adjust the primary/secondary colors, then I think we can be fairly confident that his calibration of the Samsung did not include an adjustment of the primary/secondary colors. It is pretty simple. He touts the quite primitive color adjustments that the Kuro Elite offers and completely ignores a much more sophisticated system on a competing brand. This doesn't bother you?