I could have missed it, but I haven't seen this mention'd yet. Robert offered (paid by Pioneer) free calibration, by Kevin Miller, if you buy a display within 2 weeks. (Not sure if it was any display shown or just a Pioneer. Probably just a Pioneer.)

Shootout was Business.

Wrong. When KM says during his introduction that only the Kuro Elite and the LG have the ability to adjust the primary/secondary colors, then I think we can be fairly confident that his calibration of the Samsung did not include an adjustment of the primary/secondary colors. It is pretty simple. He touts the quite primitive color adjustments that the Kuro Elite offers and completely ignores a much more sophisticated system on a competing brand. This doesn't bother you?

he was kinda nervous when talking and i think he left out the fact the samsung had them. Im sure he did the best cal possible, and has pages and pages to prove it. The sammy looked pretty good to me as well, but was not the best as expected.

These allegations against his calibration skills are ridiculous and unfounded.

I think they did a commendable job but I found it lacking in true shootout objectivity a professional shootout would have, yes make a living but don't pretend that it's nothing but a Kuro Presentation to reassert what most of the audience beleived before arriving and only looked for affirmation of that.:DI agree. This wasn't a credible "shootout" but merely a really nice Pioneer event with nice people doing nice presentations. A credible shootout would happen at the end of the year and include the best panels from the big manufacturers such as XBR8, Samsung 950, LG75 and Laservue. Of course Pioneer panels will win any shootout if they are evaluated against crappy TVs.

I agree. This wasn't a credible "shootout" but merely a really nice Pioneer event with nice people doing nice presentations. Any credible shootout would happen at the end of the year and include the best panels from the big manufacturers such as XBR8, Samsung 950, LG75 and Laservue. Of course Pioneer panels will win any shootout if they are evaluated against crappy TVs.

okay... but this is as of right now. why dont we include the pio 10gs as well :rolleyes:

Maybe we missed some of Kevin's findings on each set, can you give us more info about what he said?
Kevin put together a detailed spreadsheet with specific measurements of the panels. As opposed to me trying to accurately recall the numbers, it would be best to wait for the spreadsheet to be posted.

okay... but this is as of right now. why dont we include the pio 10gs as well :rolleyes:So you think the timing of this event was accidental? Again, this was a nice event, but don't call it a shootout.

vtms....do you know when the laservue will actually hit shelves? How much will they be?
Still alot to flush out there.
And then there is motion with the upcoming LCD's you mentioned.
The LG is the least reported on. Mainly due to its' lack of performance in the past.

vtms....do you know when the laservue will actually hit shelves? How much will they be?
Still alot to flush out there.
And then there is motion with the upcoming LCD's you mentioned.
The LG is the least reported on. Mainly due to its' lack of performance in the past.
All the panels I mentioned are scheduled to come out in 1-3 months.

I didn't question anyother, just the Laservue.
It was schedule before as well and didn't hit that mark. Still have no good grasp on pricing either just speculation...at least as far as I have seen.
It is a very intriguing set though and if it performs up to hype it would certainly garner an interest in buying from me.

Hi to all.

I was there at the event last night. My reason for going there was not to view the monitors, but to see the new Pioneer receivers SC-09 and SC-07. It was a VERY last minute thing and Robert (of Value Electronics) was able to make a space for me after I contacted him via e-mail earlier this week.

I did not know that this was going to be a plasma/lcd best of shoot out, so I had NO expectations coming in. What I experienced when I got there was not only superb hospitality but the ability to see several expertly setup displays in the best possible environment the dealer could prepare based on space, equipment, etc.

A short background on myself. I have been in the TV industry for more than 20 years. I have seen the evolution of film to video in most aspects of production and post-production and the tools used as reference to evaluate and make technical/creative decisions based on how the image “looks”. I have worked in many post-production houses in LA, Miami and New York and have lived through the film optical to videotape to now digital delivery/mediums/processes. I currently work as a producer/editor/designer for the EquatorHD, Treasure HD, MonstersHD and GalleryHD channels for VoomHD and as you can imagine I work with HD material all day long. So while I am not an expert in display calibration/critique, I certainly know when a display is calibrated properly.

Now regarding the people that were at the event and put it together. You could feel the passion in Kevin Miller about how important it is to setup a display properly so that the film/theater experience is as high as possible. Why? Because the better the presentation the greater the emotional impact the viewer will have with the content.

Robert was an incredibly gracious host and at no time did he, to me or to the people in the room, try to push any product whatsoever. In fact, he was trying his best to be as accommodating to all present as much as possible. It was crystal clear the purpose of the event from the moment one walked in; to get the best displays available in one room/place, calibrate each set to their best ability and then decide for yourself what you liked best based on your preferences. Heck, when the time came to see The Godfather in Bluray, they had to switch players from a Pioneer to a Panasonic so we could have sound. It did not matter that it was not ALL PIONEER in the chain, what mattered was to get sound running so we, the audience, could get fully immersed in the presentation of one the best movies ever made, beautifully restored.

There was a woman seated next to me that preferred the more saturated look of the Samsung, to me, the Pioneer model in the bottom center was the best (whatever model that is) followed by the Pioneer to the left of it and the Panasonic above it. I did not know their costs, model numbers or whether they were plasmas or lcd (that is until Kevin pointed out which one was what because it was RELEVANT to what he was explaining to the audience, viewing angle varies based on display technology and hence would make a difference HOW the display was calibrated and viewed).

I did not stay the whole event (stayed about 2-3 hrs) but for me the highlight by far was getting to shake the hand, and express my admiration, of Robert Harris. Yes, getting to see the first half hour of the first test pressing of the restored The Godfather in bluray was great, but nothing for me beat the opportunity to speak to Mr. Harris and discuss a few topics of mutual interest. Thanks Robert for making that happen.

So there you have it. A person who was there last night. There will always be skeptics. There will always be things that could have, should have, would have made the even more informative, entertaining, unbiased, whatever. But the fact is, Robert did this, now for the second time, because he wanted to see how the best of the best compare to each other. No overt Pioneer agenda here folks, just a let’s see how technology has progressed since last year and Pioneer representatives where there to support their system.

Robert puts his neck out once a year for the shoot-out. How many other dealers/manufacturers/companies do this every year and compare the best and let the consumer decide.

I thank the MANY people at Value Electronics for their hospitality. I also thank all the people that were there because they wanted to be there, and I hope I get to go again next year. Who knew I lived 5 miles away from such wonderful people and I have lived in Hartsdale for 10 years!

The pleasure of the evening was all mine.

Premier

Yes, I do. I thought it was going to be something other than what it was--a process of discovery, rather than an event engineered to promote a product line. I was looking forward to it, so yea, I guess I am a little pissed.

A objective shoot out at a retailer who has been promoting Pioneer recently on this forum? Take it for what it's worth, no reason to get pissed - it's called marketing and sales (as opposed to science and discover) :)

I also happen to own a new 60 inch Pioneer Elite Plasma (as well as a 52 and 47 inch Sony LCD). So I am not doubting the merits of the Kuro plasmas.

Didn't take long to ruin someones first hand experience. :rolleyes:
And I see it wasn't even read.
This event didn't have a chance from the start with many people here for their own reasons.

Hi to all.


Robert was an incredibly gracious host and at no time did he, to me or to the people in the room, try to push any product whatsoever. In fact, he was trying his best to be as accommodating to all present as much as possible.

Robert puts his neck out once a year for the shoot-out. How many other dealers/manufacturers/companies do this every year and compare the best and let the consumer decide.



Premier

Looks like it was a very successful (marketing) event for Value Electronics. Good salesmenship is getting people to feel they are not being sold to (sales 101) :)

Im sure he did the best cal possible, and has pages and pages to prove it.

:confused:

When will the 'handout' be posted/emailed for us (they mentioned they would email this to the online viewers)?

Since they don't have our email addresses, it makes sense that it is posted for download...

:confused:

premierm was the first one to post since last nights even that was there I believe.
Give some time.
They are in the middle of the second session today.

Calibration was performed on all sets. Was there a 20 serious Pioneer there? I talked with a few calibrators and they said there is no way to calibrate the 20 serious as of yet......?

You guys are hilarious.
Why didn't you offer your time, money or effort to the cause?
You can't armchair and criticize if you did nothing. ;)

Hats off to these guys for doing this.

If Samsung or Toshiba or Panasonic want to organize something, or their owners, go right ahead.....then we will have several with different biases and can collectively get all the info. and filter through the b.s.

I agree. Hats off to the people for doing this! But let's recognize that it wasn't designed as an objective test - that much should be clear to all. It's not a big deal. But THIS shootout does not qualify as AV Science (if that is what you are getting to).

How do you know?
We weren't there and we've only heard from one person today that was.
"If" they were all calibrated properly what was so wrong?

Premierm:

You said you were at the shoot-out to see/hear the new Pioneer receivers. Did you and, if so, what are your impressions?

I applaud Robert and everyone else and SOSO's work but this event should've been titled the KURO Shootout if we're going to be honest here folks.

Below I posted in the Elite thread where UMR rated the Kuro as the best and he made similar statements I've read on the Samsungs post calibration he performed in the past so it combines his findings and this event which simply could never be considered a Shootout that has objectivity and let's be honest post calibration positive posts generate business.

I find with such postings that you calibrate and take and post your numbers as if external factors to the TV itself have no impact on what the viewer can SEE. Your test results and other professionals that tout this Kuro as King don't have any way of measuring the ambient and real daylight with homes that have tall arched windows and a southern exposure or windows on multiple sides as if we all live in apartments with 8' ceilings and 3' windows.

Are you saying that this Kuro because of it's internal readings alone can be in denial of what the mighty sun and reflections can do to any plasma in daylight viewing? Why is it that none of you ever test for real life viewing environments especially when night time occurs at nearly 10PM.

Just look at the way they controlled the lighting at this so called Shootout which was anything but objective. While I applaud Robert and all the work it took the event was so slanted toward Kuro it was absurd, Pio Rep's, T-Shirts, and multiple Kuro's up on the wall and the highlight of it's strengths and total denial of LCD strengths and the reason they outsell plasma and will continue to do so.

A turn down the lights event shootout - I've not seen a single professional reviewer ever base their opinion on real life environments for daytime viewing in sunny rooms or walking into a CE store and whats up on the wall and the reality five times reviewing the Kuro up on the wall in normal light it has always been dim and dull and inferior to the Samsung 650/750 and XBR series.

So if you had a Sunny Daytime viewing room are you telling us you'd place your money on a Kuro versus the best Samsung LCD's you've calibrated?:)

Other factors that made no sense are the chosen viewing modes and settings despite calibration. My point is I can tweak my own panel to it's best but in certain view modes it can turn the viewing experience into crap - some view modes simply suck no matter how it's calibrated on certain panels and so I wonder what Samsung owners thought of the chosen view modes and settings as it makes a huge difference.

Also, not a single Sony or Samsung LED LCD and I did not notice an SE94 series Sharp and I could not tell what edition of Toshiba was up there but they enjoyed picking on it except for when it's white levels beat the Kuro and Kevin had them retest the Kuro several times to what appeared his dismay/disappointment.

This was a good Promo for the Pio Kuro Fan Club and of course those that have a contolled lighting viewing room where it may rule admittedly but some of us live in reality of our environment which may not suit us with a Plasma having tried it out actually and it miserably failed in that reality. :)

This Shootout certainly could not touch the LCos Shootout done in the past By Dr. Raymond Soneira, President DisplayMate Technologies Corp and ExtremeTech done in four parts and much more professional and objective. http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1917485,00.asp

I should have read you post earlier! You pretty much sum up my thoughts. Exellent point. It is scary when people start believe in thinly disguised sales events as objective product performance tests.

Very true and very funny! :D

This is a flat panle test, so different scenarios should also be considered - apart from the one that caters to a specific product. No?;)

It caters to the situation where critical viewing is done.
Which is good for all plasmas and better lcd's.

And if it was to make money, are you then claiming that you feel they intentionally hampered the non Pioneers on purpose?

O

Face it, Robert and Kevin are hoping to make money off this, so don't be too grateful. It's like thanking someone for having an open house when they are trying to sell their house.

So let them make sales! More power to 'em!

The shoot-out sure beats the poorly adjusted mis-placed displays along with the uninformed sales people who want you to buy them you find at most showrooms.

Nobody is stopping any other retailers from doing something different!

We're having our 2nd flat panel shoot-out at our store in Scarsdale, NY. This event will include only the very latest flagship products from the major CE manufacturers. We'll have product management, engineers and product specialists as well as some very special guests attending and presenting at the event.

I was able to get Pioneer to commit to supply their Elite PRO-111FD for the event even if the product is not shipped to stores at that time. We're clearing out all current models so our showroom will only display the next generation from the CE industry.

I would like to have two AVS Forum special presentations one on Friday at 7:00 PM and one on Saturday at 11:00 AM. Seating is limited to 21 per AVS presentation event. Good food, drinks and the very best a/v available.

Sign up today by emailing me here. (rzohn@*********************) and in the subject line telling me the date/time you want to attend.

-Robert

---ADMIN NOTE---

NOTICE TO ALL

This is in NO WAY an AVS Forum event. AVS Forum did not give the permission to use our name or site for promotion of a retail store event. AVS Forum does not get involved in "shootouts" or the like based on how the outcomes are viewed.

As you can already see in this thread, the speculation of the outcome had started long ago. It is plain to see the issue such events can make for and why AVS Forum can not be part of it. AVS Forum as a company remains neutral on such topics.

Value Electronics runs ad on this site for marketing and is not connected to AVS Forum in any other way.

Note to Admin. How many people do you think will read the clarification :)

I would recommend that such shoot outs not be promoted and run through this forum - unless all the guidelines are published up front and it has been cleared by the people who run this forum. This is clearly a sales event that is being promoted as an objective discovery session through the graces of this forum.

It caters to the situation where critical viewing is done.
Which is good for all plasmas and better lcd's.

And if it was to make money, are you then claiming that you feel they intentionally hampered the non Pioneers on purpose?

Really? So is everyone facing each panel in the optimal viewing angle or is that off?

Really? So is everyone facing each panel in the optimal viewing angle or is that off?

Wasn't there.
But I imagine they were free to move.
Why not wait for their evaluations?
If it turns out to be just a sham, then so be it. But to bash and criticize and make claims against persons' credit.....I don't know.


I'm sure the mods handled this as they saw fit.
I must go now, have a nice day.

Note to Admin. How many people do you think will read the clarification :)

I would recommend that such shoot outs not be promoted and run through this forum - unless all the guidelines are published up front and it has been cleared by the people who run this forum. This is clearly a sales event that is being promoted as an objective discovery session through the graces of this forum.

Did you bother to watch the shootout??
Kevin miller stated that he calibrated all sets fairly and would put his reputation on the line.
That is good enough for me.
Are you saying that it is not??

Look the Pioneer WON THE SHOOTOUT. they also gave gifts and were there to help pioneer owners by answering questions. They deserve a little recognition for it.

AVS has already stated that this was a non-AVS event before the shootout.
So complaining to AVS about the way the shootout was laid out is pointless and a waste of time.
So this is absolutly no different then someone posting info about CES.

Was there a 20 serious Pioneer there? I talked with a few calibrators and they said there is no way to calibrate the 20 serious as of yet......?

It was a 5010, not a 5020.

Spinner17, I did get to see both receivers but I did not get to touch/use/evaluate at all. Both units looked BIG, that was my first, and unfortunately only impression.

People might think I got sold a bill of goods at the shoot out. Those people I cannot change their minds, they are, already, made up. I did not walk out with a plasma, or lcd, or Panasonic or Pioneer. I was not shopping, nor am I still, for a display device. Taking Kevin Miller at his word as to the level of calibration, from what I saw, lights on or off, viewing dead center or off angle, the differences were not subtle and I stand by my observations. If someone rather trust a light meter than ones own eyes, then be it. I am not that person. A light meter will help me make better decisions, but it will not make them for me...

I knew this was not affiliated with AVS. I have supported, that is purchased, from AVS before. I have been reading these forums for years, but I am not one to write much.

I also saw last night the new Pioneer front projector just out of the box, uncalibrated, it had poor black levels, but again it was out of the box and uncalibrated. Wonder what it looks like today.

I did not drink from the Pioneer kool aid. but I did have some sake. And when I go to a movie theater to watch movies, I prefer to watch them with the lights off :-)

That is my preferred reference...

Did you bother to watch the shootout??
Kevin miller stated that he calibrated all sets fairly and would put his reputation on the line.
That is good enough for me.
Are you saying that it is not??



+1. People are on this thread yammering on about some made up 'bias' in their mind, reaching for anything they can. They forget that one of the most respected calibrators out there calibrated each display and that is exactly where the results came from. He doesn't work for pioneer. They attack the credibility of him by just stating things like "pioneer was in the audience so its not fair" or "the samsung should have looked better so it must be all a big conspiracy and lie".

(although I think the samsung DID actually look pretty decent)

Let pioneer have the day. It is no secret that in the standard critical viewing environment - a standard that has been around for decades - their properly calibrated displays will win. Every reviewer has stated it. Its over. If you are going to have a bright light torch contest, don't invite kevin. Invite some BB salesmen.

Spinner17, I did get to see both receivers but I did not get to touch/use/evaluate at all. Both units looked BIG, that was my first, and unfortunately only impression.

People might think I got sold a bill of goods at the shoot out. Those people I cannot change their minds, they are, already, made up. I did not walk out with a plasma, or lcd, or Panasonic or Pioneer. I was not shopping, nor am I still, for a display device. Taking Kevin Miller at his word as to the level of calibration, from what I saw, lights on or off, viewing dead center or off angle, the differences were not subtle and I stand by my observations. If someone rather trust a light meter than ones own eyes, then be it. I am not that person. A light meter will help me make better decisions, but it will not make them for me...

I knew this was not affiliated with AVS. I have supported, that is purchased, from AVS before. I have been reading these forums for years, but I am not one to write much.

I also saw last night the new Pioneer front projector just out of the box, uncalibrated, it had poor black levels, but again it was out of the box and uncalibrated. Wonder what it looks like today.

I did not drink from the Pioneer kool aid. but I did have some sake. And when I go to a movie theater to watch movies, I prefer to watch them with the lights off :-)

That is my preferred reference...

Thanks for your observations from your attendance at the shootout. Finally a breath of fresh air...

Please explain if this was not a subjective KURO Shootout why in the world were there three versions of Kuro up on the wall?

If the panel is so Superior why were three versions needed - you'd think you could pull one version out of the box and calibrate it and make room for more competition up on that wall to compare? Please explain this?

I don't see three versions of Samsung(1), Sony(0), Sharp(0), Panny(1)Zero LED LCD, et al - this limited competition and weighted in favor of this KURO Shootout.

Why were THREE KINGS needed for a Shootout? :D

There were NOT three versions of the Kuro on the walls. It amazes me how guys who weren't there know everything that went on. There were TWO versions and two versions for very good reason. Part of the session was to show the difference between the 8th gen and 9th gen Kuro displays. How would you intend to do that by just showing either an 8th gen or 9th gen. Do you have some magical way to present this.

As to the other poster who slammed Kevin for 'not knowing' about the additional color adjustments on the LG, bull! Kevin was well aware of this and he was TOLD by LG to only adjust the secondary colors and to leave the primary colors alone. He followed the directive given him by LG, not Robert!

The great thing about this is that for some people there's really no reason to go to these shootouts since they seem to know everything that went on. :rolleyes:

The fact is this was indeed a very objective shootout, very objectively presented with all panels receiving the same fair treatment. Those of you who don't know Kevin Miller or Robert, simply have no idea how straight up these guys are. As Robert said at today's event, yes he is biased, but the quality of the Kuro panels make him that way. I feel exactly the same way.
Only an extremely biased individual or an LCD fan could have walked away from today's shootout thinking anything other than the fact that the Kuro is obviously the superior panel.

What was amusing is that the Warner exec asked the LCD to be turned off prior to the Godfather presentation, due to its 'flashlight' effect. He obviously can not stand LCDs given the critical work he does.

I did get to see both receivers but I did not get to touch/use/evaluate at all. Both units looked BIG, that was my first, and unfortunately only impression.


Did they not play any sound from them or demonstrate features?

Was this a decision by Pioneer, time constraints, or otherwise?

So let them make sales! More power to 'em!

The shoot-out sure beats the poorly adjusted mis-placed displays along with the uninformed sales people who want you to buy them you find at most showrooms.

Nobody is stopping any other retailers from doing something different!

Absolutely! I applaud Robert and everyone else who put forth the hard work to make this possible! Gracious amigos.

Well, that was a lot to stomach. After reading several posts, a few things are clear:

1. This was not an objective shootout, and it was easy to tell from the get go it wouldn't be (just based on the number of Pio panels on the wall, the fact that Pioneer reps were going to be present, etc). This isn't a knock, they were the only ones who were willing to go (assuming the others were called, I can't recall).
2. Whether or not the others were calibrated to their full potential, the Pio's likely would still have won the shootout given that the material being used favoured sets with the best black levels (dark scenes). They are, clearly, the black level champs. Period. No discussion.
3. If true, it's unfortunate that Kevin did not use the CMS system within the Samsung to calibrate primaries and secondaries, likely because the set may have been new to him. I.e., just because someone is a pristine calibrator, that doesn't mean they can possibly be up to date on all TV's and the calibration options available.

Assuming the Elite and Samsung can each be calibrated to reference colors, the fact that the Samsung has 1/10th the black level of the Pio (meaning the black level is 10 times better on the Pio) would be very evident. Owning a Samsung and having seen the Pio 8G Elite 60" in action with similar material, I know the Pio Elite would beat the Samsung in overall PQ based solely on the black level performance of the set. For double the cost, I would d*mn right expect it!

In any event, it sounds like it was a ton of fun, regardless of the issues surrounding the event. I recall doing a couple "sub" shootouts myself at my house and at another AVS members house and the amount of time and effort that was involved, and we were still attacked on end by fans of various subwoofer camps (JL, SVS, Velo, Paradigm, Axiom). Setting up Plasmas would have been incredibly more onerous.

Hopefully HometheaterMag will do another flat panel shootout as they have done in the past. Although, that too will be argued til the end of the earth.

Edit: Ignore the "number of Pio's on the wall comment". Seems there were in fact only 2, not 3, and it made sense to have the 8G and 9G on their if one of the reasons for the GTG was to compare the two!!

Maybe another product's blacks were close enough and it may be worth buying over the Kuro and it's premium price. It would be nice if someone talked about the spreadsheet results (or post the results here). What were the rankings? Anyone?

And once again, Robert was VERY clear in making the same statement. He essentially said that it's quite obvious the Kuro is the panel with the best PQ. In fact Kevin Miller, who ISF's every panel you could think of, also agreed there is no panel out there that can match it. With that said, Robert mentioned there may be reasons to buy other panels such as cost or simply that you don't need to have the finest video display around. I don't need the finest audio equipment in the world since I'm far more anal about video.

So everyone makes their own decisions.

Rankings?

Contrast Ratio:
Pioneer Pro 111
Pioneer PDP5010
Toshiba 52XF550 (Kevin felt this might be an error)
Panasonic TH50PZ800
Samsung PN50A650
LG 50PG60

Color Accuracy:
Pioneer Pro111
Panasonic
Samsung
Pioneer5010
Toshiba
LG

Color Decoding:
Tie
Tie
Tie
Tie
Pioneer PD5010
Samsung

Resolution:
Pioneer Pro111
Panasonic
Samsung
LG
Pioneer5010
Toshiba

I just saw 2 Kuros :confused:

Yeah, some guys just make stuff up as they go along! :rolleyes:

Did they not play any sound from them or demonstrate features?

Was this a decision by Pioneer, time constraints, or otherwise?It was a flat-panel shoot out, not receivers :D. I would've loved to hear how t hey compare to the 94TXH because I may replace that with the SC-05/07. And of course I want the link for my 151 with the BDP-05.

The thing is when you compare something like a kuro vs lcd, or another brighter plasma, is black levels is not the end all. Brightness plays a major factor as well. I wonder how did the kuro's do with bright scenes, sharpness, pop, wow factor. Of course the kuros do great with blacks, but many scenes in movies can be dominated by bright scenes. The godfather is fitting to show off the kuro, it has torture testing black scenes.

When properly calibrated, the two Kuros were the brightest panels (by the numbers). But the bottom line is that THE most important factor IS black levels. Everyone agreed about that. Whether it was Kevin Miller, Pioneer or the exec from WB...everyone agreed that black levels were where it's at. Obviously (before all the nay sayers begin) if other picture parameters are really off, then the picture will suffer. Just as obviously, such was not the case with the Pioneers.

And once again, Robert was VERY clear in making the same statement. He essentially said that it's quite obvious the Kuro is the panel with the best PQ. In fact Kevin Miller, who ISF's every panel you could think of, also agreed there is no panel out there that can match it. With that said, Robert mentioned there may be reasons to buy other panels such as cost or simply that you don't need to have the finest video display around. I don't need the finest audio equipment in the world since I'm far more anal about video.

So everyone makes their own decisions.

Rankings?

Contrast Ratio:
Pioneer Pro 111
Pioneer PDP5010
Toshiba 52XF550 (Kevin felt this might be an error)
Panasonic TH50PZ800
Samsung PN50A650
LG 50PG60

Color Accuracy:
Pioneer Pro11
Panasonic
Samsung
Pioneer5010
Toshiba
LG

Color Decoding:
Tie
Tie
Tie
Tie
Pioneer PD5010
Samsung

Resolution:
Pioneer Pro111
Panasonic
Samsung
LG
Pioneer5010
ToshibaDoesn't that say it all... Can the naysayers please shut up now.

I can think of one reason why the 650 750 lcd aint there. And if it was how would it be set up.

Yet to see any revier tap in to its full potential, But I sure do.
Love those brillaint whites hate the dull gray ones.

Then never waste your money on an ISF calibration, you don't want an accurate picture. ;)

Yep anything but a shootout. Suspected from the start. The word shootout is very misleading.

It was a shootout. You may not like the results (as most of the nay sayers seem to have in common), but it sure as heck was a shootout. All panels were properly ISF'd, all had a common battle ground, all fed the same source...that's a shootout KDH like it or not. Sorry if it didn't give you the results you were looking for. :)

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by these results when virtually every reviewer in every publication says the same thing. But I guess some still believe the world to be flat. ;)

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by these results when virtually every reviewer in every publication says the same thing. But I guess some still believe the world to be flat. ;)

So true.

I love the conspiracy theories on here, they are priceless. Clearly all the reviewers and calibrators out there are in cahoots, working dillegently away for pioneer. Man they should have declared (insert display forum user purchased) as the best off all. Results don't mean anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was also in attendance last night.

I'm very grateful for the opportunity to see these 6 panels, calibrated, in a setting with several experts, Pioneer and otherwise. Robert and the team at Value Electronics were gracious hosts, welcoming us into their store as if we were parts of the family.

Despite the protestations of some of the folks here, this wasn't just a Pioneer love-fest. There was no pressure to prefer the Pioneer over the Samsung, LG, or Panasonic. The Pioneer reps themselves didn't even make a presentation and they didn't really challenge or criticize D-Nice while he was discussing his own observations of the Kuros.

The only formal presentation was done by Kevin, and he wasn't pushing any agenda other than the benefits of calibration, which I don't think anyone here doubts. My only wish was that we could have seen the calibration spreadsheet while viewing the panels. It would have been nice to compare my own observations with Kevin's measured results. Kevin didn't get into all of the numeric details, which was understandable given the time constraints.

To my eyes, the new Kuro had the best PQ, followed by the 5010, which was very closely followed by the Panasonic. I think the Panny holds its own very well, especially considering the difference in price.

Robert clearly appreciates Pioneer, I don't think that's a surprise. But Robert is, as he says, all about "Value" -- the smart decision is to find the best components for the best price, regardless of brand. It would not take long for an impartial observer to interact with Robert and understand it's not all about Pioneer.

As a area resident, I'd never have any fear about purchasing from Robert at Value Electronics.

I agree. This so-called shootout seems like a joke if you look at it objectively, but objectivity usually seems rare at AVS. Here is a partial list of the deficiencies of this "shootout". Feel free to add more I missed.

1. Multiple Pioneer panels versus only 1 of other mfgr's.
2. No non-Elite Pioneer panels
3. Improperly calibrated Samsung panel
4. No SD viewing testing.
5. Little if any testing in some ambient light.
6. No high end LCD's used in test.

1. Two Pioneers (not three). Reason? To show the improvement from 8g to 9g. Is this a crime?
2. Yes there was a non-Elite panel, you are again misinformed
3. Says who?
4. There are only so many things you can do in the span of 2 hours and several presenters. When you put on YOUR comparo, you can do SD.
5. They were playing the demo clips with the room lighting on at the beginning, so congrats, you're wrong again.
6. This was a plasma shootout and they probably shouldn't have had any LCDs there. If I manufactured LCDs, I sure wouldn't have wanted to be in this test.

I suggest all you armchair quarterbacks get together and organize your own shootout. Invite the public as Robert & Wendy did, give out food and drink, have a very well respected ISF tech present, ISF all the sets to put them on a level playing field and then prepare yourself for insults, criticisms and flat out false accusations. This isn't a 'tough' crowd, it's an uninformed and nasty crowd. Most of you guys are LCD fans and there's nothing wrong with that, but there surely IS something wrong with falsely accusing people when you don't even know the facts. I also find it fascinating that the LCD crowd is drawn to these threads like moths to a light.

When properly calibrated, the two Kuros were the brightest panels (by the numbers). But the bottom line is that THE most important factor IS black levels. Everyone agreed about that. Whether it was Kevin Miller, Pioneer or the exec from WB...everyone agreed that black levels were where it's at. Obviously (before all the nay sayers begin) if other picture parameters are really off, then the picture will suffer. Just as obviously, such was not the case with the Pioneers.

Agreed.

Also, while the web feed is rather poor quality versus being there I sure the hell saw no huge difference between the Samsung and Pio blacks even when the room was darkened and it certainly didn't hold those blacks when the room lights were on and that is exactly the way it views in the retail stores.

It's amazing that you can make this determination Westa based on a feed that seemed to be comprised of about 100 pixels. I read this stuff ladies and gentlemen and just sit here and shake my head.

We've got tons of people making PQ assessments with reasonably decent pictures which are displayed on uncalibrated computer LCDs and now we have people making black level determinations based on a typically poor web feed. Aint life grand?

I know the usual suspects won't care much about the facts, but there was a BIG difference when you sat there and saw the black levels of the 9g vs the other sets. Nobody in the audience would have disputed that.

Only 2 pios were part of the shootout the FHD1 was on the other side of the equipment rack and was not turned on nor was it even asked to be turned on. Obviously it would have been spanked by the 111.

One item that was not mentioned as of yet is the optimum mode of the Pio 111. Although a purist (my self included) may never use this function it was a big step forward.

It has an active color sensor on the bottom right of the display that senses color shifts in the room lighting. They showed it by enabling the room light sensor and the color sensor. Then going into optimum mode, we then showed the display with the lights on and off still with the other displays on.

As expected the average brightness reduced itself slightly when the room went dark but the really interesting function was going the other way. When the room light was brought up you could see the display ever so slightly adjust it self so that the color saturation and accuracy was the same as it was as in the dark environment. Really nice work.

If you have the display in a light controlled room or theater then this function is not a big deal. But if it is in a family room or media room with outside light intrusion I see it being a big plus.

It's amazing that you can make this determination Westa based on a feed that seemed to be comprised of about 100 pixels. I read this stuff ladies and gentlemen and just sit here and shake my head.

We've got tons of people making PQ assessments with reasonably decent pictures which are displayed on uncalibrated computer LCDs and now we have people making black level determinations based on a typically poor web feed. Aint life grand?

I know the usual suspects won't care much about the facts, but there was a BIG difference when you sat there and saw the black levels of the 9g vs the other sets. Nobody in the audience would have disputed that.

Nobody in the audience would have disputed that

Big +1

Therefore unlike a theater, viewing with ambient lighting is just as important if not more so.

If most of my viewing were done with lights on or sunshine streaming in, I'd get one of the cheapest, decent panels I could buy. No point spending any kind of money under those conditions since you'll never get close to optimum picture quality. Would you go to the movies if the theater had windowns and light was streaming in?

I guess folks think the Pioneer reps are just sales oriented, and have no idea that the Kuro is 'at least' on level with any other premium panel out there, after you balance out the pluses and minuses, because nothing is perfect!
Quality of 'black level' is still a prime contributor or detractor for any display. And calibrators have been saying long before folks thought kuro was just a funny way to say syrup!

If you don't like others opinions or perceptions, man up! You still got your own and nobody can take that away from you!
I'm all for more shoot outs from as many manufacturers and retailers that want to support them!

All panels were properly ISF'd

I think it is important to remember that there is not a consensus among the ISF Calibrators (including well respected ones/most experienced/ISF Leadership) on the use of all available Controls and Memories in some of these Display's CMS and/of ISFccc Interfaces.

It was a shootout. You may not like the results (as most of the nay sayers seem to have in common), but it sure as heck was a shootout. All panels were properly ISF'd, all had a common battle ground, all fed the same source...that's a shootout KDH like it or not. Sorry if it didn't give you the results you were looking for. :)

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by these results when virtually every reviewer in every publication says the same thing. But I guess some still believe the world to be flat. ;)

Ain't it the frack'in truth! It seems to just kill some people everytime a Pioneer Kuro is deemed the best display. It happened in 2006 w/the FHD1 (although Fujitsu was excellent), then again in 2007 w/the Kuro 150, and now for the third year straight in 2008 w/the Kuro 151. Something weird about it when praise for advancements in innovation, design & video tech brings out the knuckleheads to slam a product.

To them, Pioneer is the "evil empire" conspiring to make even better & better displays in order to somehow scam their way into an unbeliever's pocketbook. Geez, give me a break! Not only were the people holding the event top-notch in A/V, to say the least, but so were the attendees. These people know more about video tech than all the Magnolias combined. Not exactly the type of folks you could hoodwink or trick into making a false analysis. Reading over some of the "Usual Suspects" posts on this thread makes me think SOS.

Doesn't that say it all... Can the naysayers please shut up now.I know how intensely painful it can be to hear people express views different from your own, but I am afraid I can't oblige you.

1. Post-calibration, the Pioneer Elite may at best have equal color accuracy to the Samsung, but it cannot have better. It is IMPOSSIBLE. Why? Because the Samsung includes a 3D CMS that allows the calibrator to adjust all aspects of color performance to as close to the desired standard as the instrumentation will allow. The Elite has a much more primitive 1D CMS that allows adjustment to hue only.

2. Post-calibration, the Panasonic may at best have equal color accuracy to the Samsung, but it cannot have better. It is IMPOSSIBLE. Why? Because the Samsung includes a 3D CMS that allows the calibrator to adjust all aspects of color performance to as close to the desired standard as the instrumentation will allow. The Panasonic has no CMS at all. All it has is a reasonably accurate THX preset which is unadjustable.

3. Post-calibration, all of the other displays may at best have equal color decoding performance to the Samsung, but they cannot have better. It is IMPOSSIBLE. Why? Because the Samsung includes a 3D CMS that allows the calibrator to adjust all aspects of color performance (including color decoding) to as close to the desired standard as the instrumentation will allow. None of the other displays have this. At best you must rely on whatever presets (of varying degrees of accuracy) they provide.

Quite apart from making me want to "shut up" as you so delicately phrased it, this list only reinforces the view that the Samsung was not properly calibrated.

Didn't take long to ruin someones first hand experience. :rolleyes:
And I see it wasn't even read.
This event didn't have a chance from the start with many people here for their own reasons.

Let's not confuse some of these folks with the facts. I and everyone else in atttendence could say the same thing and it wouldn't matter a bit. The interesting commonality is almost all of these guys are LCD guys. If I was interested in LCDs, I'd visit those threads, but I wouldn't pop in there just to burst bubblesm, mis-state facts and make false accusations.

News flash!: Pioneer is better than Samsung! A real shocker! This shootout made no sense as the outcome was known in advance.

Other than a reconfirmation of what the members of the church of Kuro already know or believe, it produced few converts. A guy who makes sixty, if he is that lucky, wants to know only one thing: what is the best all-around, all-weather, TV set he can afford and his family can use. Telling him that the best caviar is Russian and the best perfume is French is as pointless as the purpose and the outcome of this self-congratulatory exhibition. So instead of staging this lopsided infomercial, why don't you compare the best of the LCDs with the best of plasma under these conditions: sunny day, cloudy day, night with moderate light and a cave. Then ask one thousand normal people which one set would they take home as a gift and, as a second question, as a purchase.

This very discussion belongs on a public forum like AVS IMO.

Quite apart from making me want to "shut up" as you so delicately phrased it, this list only reinforces the view that the Samsung was not properly calibrated.

Instead of all of us debating how Kevin did or did not correctly calibrate the Samsung, why don't we all wait and see if Kevin or Robert can clarify the details of the calibration that was done.

As it stands neither you, nor anyone else here, knows whether the Samsung was properly calibrated, so we ought to stop crying about it.

I agree. Hats off to the people for doing this! But let's recognize that it wasn't designed as an objective test - that much should be clear to all. It's not a big deal. But THIS shootout does not qualify as AV Science (if that is what you are getting to).

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are wrong, very wrong. When you actually attend one of these events, see the care and precision that went into it, you just might be a bit more qualified to make this statement. If you have a bone to pick with which panels were chosen that's one thing, but to say that those panels that were chosen were not treated in a methodical, careful manner is just simply nonsense.

The bottom line is that no matter which panels were picked, no matter how many were chosen, there would have been the inevitable nay sayers saying "OH, so they didn't pick panel ABC, what a joke!".

I believe what Tom is suggesting is that this may not be the case in regards to the Samsung (IHO).

I think it is important to remember that there is not a consensus among the ISF Calibrators (including well respected ones/most experienced/ISF Leadership) on the use of all available Controls and Memories in some of these Display's CMS and/of ISFccc Interfaces.I am not just suggesting it. I am saying it flat out. There is NO lack of consensus about taking advantage of the Samsung CMS available in the user menu. Failure to use it means only that either you don't know it is there, you don't know how to use it, or for some bad reason you have decided not to use it. There isn't a third option.

I can't get inside KM's head, so my guess is that he was just not aware of it. It is new for this year, and he may have thought that the best he could do was put it into the Movie preset, which was the recommended procedure for last year's model and what he said he did with this one.

Being "highly respected" does not mean you never make mistakes or always do your homework, especially as in the case of this event in which homework on competing brands simply wasn't called for.

For the record, I think that the current Pioneer Elites are arguably the best plasmas--maybe the best displays--currently available. Their only downside is high cost. What this means is Pioneer (at least the Elite version) would have in all likelihood won a fair shootout in any case. There was no need to stack the deck in its favor.

This is a flat panle test, so different scenarios should also be considered - apart from the one that caters to a specific product. No?;)

Robert said his biggest mistake was not simply calling it a "Plasma shootout" which is basically what it was. Just as last year he did an LCD shootout, why are you guys so pissed that almost all the panels tested were plasmas on THIS go-around? Why does that irk so many of you LCD fanboys? If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

Have any of you ever been to Value Electronics? Do you know the size of the room that Robert has to deal with? Do you know the resultant space constraints?

If you did, you would know why he was severely limited in how many panels could be presented. But even so, there was Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer, LG and Toshiba. For that size room my friends, not too bad.

Great job Robert! :)

Instead of all of us debating how Kevin did or did not correctly calibrate the Samsung, why don't we all wait and see if Kevin or Robert can clarify the details of the calibration that was done.

As it stands neither you, nor anyone else here, knows whether the Samsung was properly calibrated, so we ought to stop crying about it.I know what the calibrator said, and I am taking him seriously. You might want to consider doing the same.

BTW, if there was a spreadsheet that contained all of the calibration data, why has no one posted it? It would take 2 minutes.

So let them make sales! More power to 'em!

The shoot-out sure beats the poorly adjusted mis-placed displays along with the uninformed sales people who want you to buy them you find at most showrooms.

Nobody is stopping any other retailers from doing something different!

A HUGE "Amen" to that!

Thanks to SoSo for the internet feed last night. Was kind of fun being a part of the event, even though I wasn't actually there. Hearing things in person is different than reading recaps.

Someone made a good point about Pioneer's PQ vs the price and features of the competition, especially the Panasonic. Two years ago, the Elites weren't even realistic options for me, based on price, and for others, they are still not affordable. If I were going bang-for-buck at the high-end, I would have gone with the Panasonic TH-50PZ850U. It would have also given me more component inputs and the SDHC reader for AVCHD camcorders -- two things I would have appreciated -- while offering lots of easily accessible menu video settings. In the end, the desire for top picture quality (at least in my mind), won out.

I will preface this next statement with the disclaimer that I have replaced a 3 year old Panasonic plasma with a Pioneer 111FD two days ago in my uncontrolled-lighting great room (read lots of uncovered windows). I see a number of forum members claiming that having two Pioneers on the wall somehow skews the scores in favor of the 111FD, though no one is explaining how a older model lower-end Pioneer has any effect on the qualities of a current generation panel made by Pioneer, Panasonic, or any other mfr.

If Robert replaces the 5010FD with one of last year's Panasonic or Toshiba panels, would this even the playing field?

If the scores from the 5010FD were expunged from all result sheets, would any of the other panels have better rated numbers compared to the 111FD? Or would it have lower scores?

Note to Admin. How many people do you think will read the clarification :)

I would recommend that such shoot outs not be promoted and run through this forum - unless all the guidelines are published up front and it has been cleared by the people who run this forum. This is clearly a sales event that is being promoted as an objective discovery session through the graces of this forum.

Give it a rest, geesh, you guys are the biggest ingrates I've ever seen in the A/V world. Pathetic, truly pathetic. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yep anything but a shootout. Suspected from the start. The word shootout is very misleading.

What are pathetic post.

Look guys,
There was no "fix". I think some of you are being extremly childish here saying "Pioneer cheated".

The fact still remains that Kevin miller calibrated the sets evenly per his reputation. Which is a damn good reputation.

Not enough>?

Yesterday UMR (One of the most unbias calibrators on this forum) stated that after his full professional calibration, his preference was the Elite 111 (same panel that won the shootout).

In fact, his exact words were "If you want the best flat panel display on the market the Pioneer 9G is my pick."
Here ya go: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14319886&postcount=2129


Still think there is a conspiracy?

There is NO lack of consensus about taking advantage of the Samsung CMS available in the user menu.

Another is in one of your Threads under the Title: What's wrong with the ISF description of color?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536

-Turbe

I know what the calibrator said, and I am taking him seriously. You might want to consider doing the same.

BTW, if there was a spreadsheet that contained all of the calibration data, why has no one posted it? It would take 2 minutes.

Tom, you truly do make internet arguing an art. Kudos to you.

Wendy indicated that they were going to email the calibration spreadsheet out to attendees, but I, at least, have not received a copy yet. Once it's available I'm sure someone will post a copy for you to print out and use as toilet paper.

1. Post-calibration, the Pioneer Elite may at best have equal color accuracy to the Samsung, but it cannot have better. It is IMPOSSIBLE. Why?

... repeats same thing over and over

This elusive perfect samsung calibration must give the display the best blacks and saturation in the room :rolleyes:. Nobody is saying the sammy doesn't have good color accuracy (although this assertion that it is perfect and impossible to beat is flawed and never once been stated in a calibration report or review that I have seen). But that still would not make it win the shootout overall, and poor blacks can easily harm color as the full range cannot be displayed. Could kevin have improved the samsung ever so slightly? maybe, maybe not. But pio would have still have trounced it.

Unlike many trolls kicking around here, your comments at least have some merit, but unfortunately i still have yet to hear you acknowledge a single result taken from the shootout and instead are clinging to something to denounce the whole test, like many other users here. Granted theirs is based on some grand conspiracy, but I'm still not sold on the fact that the test is BS because the sammy could maybe have done better...

When properly calibrated, the two Kuros were the brightest panels (by the numbers). But the bottom line is that THE most important factor IS black levels. Everyone agreed about that. Whether it was Kevin Miller, Pioneer or the exec from WB...everyone agreed that black levels were where it's at. Obviously (before all the nay sayers begin) if other picture parameters are really off, then the picture will suffer. Just as obviously, such was not the case with the Pioneers.



Is their a noticeable difference in brightness 8g vs 9g? Even calibrated?

If most of my viewing were done with lights on or sunshine streaming in, I'd get one of the cheapest, decent panels I could buy. No point spending any kind of money under those conditions since you'll never get close to optimum picture quality. Would you go to the movies if the theater had windowns and light was streaming in?

Your logic is faulty Ken.
Movie theaters use a projection system which require a dark environment.
Flat panel displays like plasmas and LCD are designed to perform under various lighting conditions, including sunlight. A movie theater projection system would obviously fail there.
Just because a Kuro wont do as well under ambient lightning doesn't mean others can't achieve very good results in that environment.

News flash!: Pioneer is better than Samsung! A real shocker! This shootout made no sense as the outcome was known in advance.

Other than a reconfirmation of what the members of the church of Kuro already know or believe, it produced few converts. A guy who makes sixty, if he is that lucky, wants to know only one thing: what is the best all-around, all-weather, TV set he can afford and his family can use. Telling him that the best caviar is Russian and the best perfume is French is as pointless as the purpose and the outcome of this self-congratulatory exhibition. So instead of staging this lopsided infomercial, why don't you compare the best of the LCDs with the best of plasma under these conditions: sunny day, cloudy day, night with moderate light and a cave. Then ask one thousand normal people which one set would they take home as a gift and, as a second question, as a purchase.

And ladies and gentlemen we have yet another offer for the 'perfect' shootout. So ramazur, when can we expect your shootout to be held?

Instead of all of us debating how Kevin did or did not correctly calibrate the Samsung, why don't we all wait and see if Kevin or Robert can clarify the details of the calibration that was done.

As it stands neither you, nor anyone else here, knows whether the Samsung was properly calibrated, so we ought to stop crying about it.

One problem (aside from the obviously inferior black level of the Samsung) was a somewhat suspect gamma curve. As Kevin ran through his tests, this issue showed up on the LG and, to a lesser extent, on the Samsung. The Pioneer's was spot on and has been so mentioned by D-Nice and Kevin.

And ladies and gentlemen we have yet another offer for the 'perfect' shootout. So ramazur, when can we expect your shootout to be held?

In an hour at the local BB where LN52A650 or even 550 beats the pants off of any Pioneer. Oops, sorry, I forgot that the store has lights on.

When properly calibrated, the two Kuros were the brightest panels (by the numbers). But the bottom line is that THE most important factor IS black levels. Everyone agreed about that. Whether it was Kevin Miller, Pioneer or the exec from WB...everyone agreed that black levels were where it's at. Obviously (before all the nay sayers begin) if other picture parameters are really off, then the picture will suffer. Just as obviously, such was not the case with the Pioneers.

And that assumption, that black levels were the most important, defined the bias in the so called shootout.
Look, I am happy you guys received further affirmation for your kuro purchases/love fest. However this was hardly an objective competition.

I know what the calibrator said, and I am taking him seriously. You might want to consider doing the same.

BTW, if there was a spreadsheet that contained all of the calibration data, why has no one posted it? It would take 2 minutes.

Tom, tell me the numbers you want and I'll give them to you. Kevin handed out a 3 page report on his findings.

I can give you one example of a lack of consensus... Pioneer's 9 Point Gamma Controls, some Calibrators find is useless and will not utilize it, others disagree and do... who is right?

Another is in one of your Threads under the Title: What's wrong with the IFS description of color?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536

There are several other examples, but I understand your point is specifically to the Samsung.. mine is more generalized for the Pro Calibration Community.

-Shawn

Shawn, it seems the consensus I've heard about this (including Kevin's statement when I spoke with him) is that it takes a long time to do this calibration. In the end, you've got results that might measure a tad better than a 'typical ISF', but the results would be essentially invisible to the viewer. Is that worth it? I don't think it would be for me since you'll be charged for the additional time.

Tom, tell me the numbers you want and I'll give them to you. Kevin handed out a 3 page report on his findings.The pre and post-calibration xyY data on the panels, especially the Samsung.

This elusive perfect samsung calibration must give the display the best blacks and saturation in the room . Nobody is saying the sammy doesn't have good color accuracy (although this assertion that it is perfect and impossible to beat is flawed and never once been stated in a calibration report or review that I have seen). But that still would not make it win the shootout overall, and poor blacks can easily harm color as the full range cannot be displayed. Could kevin have improved the samsung ever so slightly? maybe, maybe not. But pio would have still have trounced it.The CMS allows a calibrator to make it as close to perfect as the instrumentation will allow. It doesn't come that way. You have to work at it.

What you don't appreciate is that some of us--myself certainly and I assume others--are less concerned about who won and who lost than we are with ensuring that events such as this realize their enormous potential for educating consumers about what these displays have to offer. But if instead of a legitimate shootout where all candidates are carefully and equally discussed and the relative pros and cons weighed, we instead get what is essentially a commercial for one vendor, then consumers are screwed. The only people that could possibly be happy about this are Pioneer owners who wanted nothing more than a public reaffirmation of their purchasing choices. We get enough of that on AVS as it is.

For those clamoring for the stats:

Another is in one of your Threads under the Title: What's wrong with the ISF description of color?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536

There are several other examples, but I understand your point is specifically to the Samsung.. mine is more generalized for the Pro Calibration Community.It's funny that you should have caught that. I wrote it just last night. I was motivated by what I heard KM say at this event.

News flash!: Pioneer is better than Samsung! A real shocker! This shootout made no sense as the outcome was known in advance.

Other than a reconfirmation of what the members of the church of Kuro already know or believe, it produced few converts. A guy who makes sixty, if he is that lucky, wants to know only one thing: what is the best all-around, all-weather, TV set he can afford and his family can use. Telling him that the best caviar is Russian and the best perfume is French is as pointless as the purpose and the outcome of this self-congratulatory exhibition. So instead of staging this lopsided infomercial, why don't you compare the best of the LCDs with the best of plasma under these conditions: sunny day, cloudy day, night with moderate light and a cave. Then ask one thousand normal people which one set would they take home as a gift and, as a second question, as a purchase.

In an hour at the local BB where LN52A650 or even 550 beats the pants off of any Pioneer. Oops, sorry, I forgot that the store has lights on.

Oh. My. God. Seriously? We're doing this? This was a home theater shoot-out, looking for the most impressive tech. There is no way they are testing the TV for people who like to watch movies while sitting outside sunbathing. Why don't we build our movie theaters out of glass in the middle of the desert! just as the director intended!

Next shoot-out, Just get your famed BB environment and a BB salesmen. Lets throw all the standards that have been around for decades out the window. We'll tell the directors, we don't really care about what detail they put in their films, we have no use for their snooty 'standards'. We'll tell the calibrators and reviewers that they were wrong this whole time, the best buy guys know best. We may as well just lock the displays on vivid and have a race to see who can invent the brightest flourescent lighting to compliment that beautiful sunlight as best as possible. Just for the love of god, don't take away my sun or my hundreds of flourescent lights while I'm watching movies.

Geez, buy some friggin blinds.

In an hour at the local BB where LN52A650 or even 550 beats the pants off of any Pioneer. Oops, sorry, I forgot that the store has lights on.


... now that's funny! :D

The CMS allows a calibrator to make it as close to perfect as the instrumentation will allow. It doesn't come that way. You have to work at it.

What you don't appreciate is that some of us--myself certainly and I assume others--are less concerned about who won and who lost than we are with ensuring that events such as this realize their enormous potential for educating consumers about what these displays have to offer. But if instead of a legitimate shootout where all candidates are carefully and equally discussed and the relative pros and cons weighed, we instead get what is essentially a commercial for one vendor, then consumers are screwed. The only people that could possibly be happy about this are Pioneer owners who wanted nothing more than a public reaffirmation of their purchasing choices. We get enough of that on AVS as it is.

Once again it sounds like a global conspiracy by Pioneer. Let me give you a hint Tom, Pioneers owners don't NEED a 'reaffirmation' of their purchasing decision. They get that each and every time they press the 'power' button. Instead it is the many LCD fanboys that come to a PLASMA thread that seem to 'need' this reaffirmation.

Your statement sounds suspiciously colored from someone who professes to be 'objective'. That's too bad, it really is.

Geez, buy some friggin blinds.

Now THAT'S funny! :D

Kuros are the best dispalys period under the right conditions. However, I think where everyone is taking an exception is that this whole test revolved around the Kuro and its black level in a dark room. These things are tvs guys first and foremost and should be graded as such, and that includes various lighting conditions that someone will experience in their own home. The Kuro shines in a dark environment, but pales next to others in other scenarios. Since this was a 'shootout', it would have been nice to know which tvs excel in certain aspects. Which one runs 24p material best? Which panels buzz more than others? Which has the most user controls reguarding picture? Which ones exhibit IR sooner than the others? Which type of IR wiping features are built into the tv? Who has the most user friendly remote? Which has the best anti-glare screen? Which ones are easily user upgradeable for firmware? What seems to work best in a brightly lit room? I could go on and on with questions that would be answered in a 'real' shootout, but its obvious that this shootout was just to demonstrate the black level differences betwen the tvs, which aren't much of an advantage when the lights come on. As much as I love Kuros, and recognize their absolute advantage (and am saving for a 10g 60"), you have to admit that this was nothing of a shootout except to compare black levels.

The CMS allows a calibrator to make it as close to perfect as the instrumentation will allow. It doesn't come that way. You have to work at it.

What you don't appreciate is that some of us--myself certainly and I assume others--are less concerned about who won and who lost than we are with ensuring that events such as this realize their enormous potential for educating consumers about what these displays have to offer. But if instead of a legitimate shootout where all candidates are carefully and equally discussed and the relative pros and cons weighed, we instead get what is essentially a commercial for one vendor, then consumers are screwed. The only people that could possibly be happy about this are Pioneer owners who wanted nothing more than a public reaffirmation of their purchasing choices. We get enough of that on AVS as it is.

Tom

I've been following the Sammy, Panny and Pio threads for some time for research into my next purchase. I have not seen very many Pio posts in other brands threads, bashing or otherwise. All three owner threads have all readily posted their problems along with their praises for their purchases, as should be, in an informational forum of flat panel displays. Comparisons are made, some with merit, others not so much. I could make the "public reaffirmation" statement on the Panny or Sammy based on comments in their perspective threads. That's human nature. But alot of good pro's and con's have been listed in each of the threads which are the posts I'm trying to filter out. Just my $.04.

For those clamoring for the stats:Yep, the Samsung's color was uncalibrated. He just put it into Movie mode and left it at that, just as he said he did. Also, there's no color decoding data in here at all, so I don't know how that was evaluated.

Kuros are the best dispalys period under the right conditions. However, I think where everyone is taking an exception is that this whole test revolved around the Kuro and its black level in a dark room. These things are tvs guys first and foremost and should be graded as such, and that includes various lighting conditions that someone will experience in their own home. The Kuro shines in a dark environment, but pales next to others in other scenarios. Since this was a 'shootout', it would have been nice to know which tvs excel in certain aspects. Which one runs 24p material best? Which panels buzz more than others? Which has the most user controls reguarding picture? Which ones exhibit IR sooner than the others? Which type of IR wiping features are built into the tv? Who has the most user friendly remote? Which has the best anti-glare screen? Which ones are easily user upgradeable for firmware? What seems to work best in a brightly lit room? I could go on and on with questions that would be answered in a 'real' shootout, but its obvious that this shootout was just to demonstrate the black level differences betwen the tvs, which aren't much of an advantage when the lights come on. As much as I love Kuros, and recognize their absolute advantage (and am saving for a 10g 60"), you have to admit that this was nothing of a shootout except to compare black levels.

You have some valid points, but let's face it, anyone after a Kuro is not going to watch this in a brightly lit room the majority of the time. You get a Kuro because you want the most accurate, best looking picture available...under conditions that a properly calibrated display should be used.

If you have no interest in accuracy, you get something else. If you only watch in a brightly lit room, you obviously don't care about accuracy and an LCD is a great choice. Hell, I've got one in my brightly lit kitchen with skylights.

To some of your other points, a couple of people had gone up to the Kuros and heard no buzz. Granted it was not 'pin-drop quiet' in the room, but I think we would have heard an offensive buzz if there was one.

I didn't focus on the anti-glare properties of the screens, but I think the Kuro was among the best based on reflections I saw (or didin't see). If anything the lower panels were at a disadvantage in this respect.

Again, time constraints made it impossible to test every feature that every AVS'r could come up with. No matter what would have been tested, someone would have found a number of things that weren't. Time constraints make tests like these a compromise. Robert probably wanted to sell some product to some neighborhood residents that were waiting to come in, so I don't think it was unreasonable to limit this shootout.

Wow, just wow. Im simply floored at the amount of ass umptions being made by people who were not there.

First I just want to thank Robert and everyone at VE for all their hardwork and hospitality. It was incredible to hear all the titans of av in that room.

That said, I have to agree that this was not a shootout, in the truest sense. I dont think Robert really meant it to be either.

This was not a shootout like woodstock wasnt a battle of the bands.
If you want to criticize it for what it was not, you are severely missing the point.

I need to log for now and will post more when I get back home, but please before you impugn the speakers at the gathering and their "agendas", remember we are talking about THE highest regarded member of the plasma forum and a founding member of ISF. Im not saying they are gods and above critique, but you do yourself and this forum a great disservice by dismissing their findings as simple bias.

Tom

I've been following the Sammy, Panny and Pio threads for some time for research into my next purchase. I have not seen very many Pio posts in other brands threads, bashing or otherwise.

Yup. That's what I was saying about Pioneer owners having no need to blow out LCD threads to 'reaffirm' their purchase...there's no need to, the picture speaks for itself. But for some reason there does seem to be a need for some LCD owners to pollute many Pioneer threads. I wonder why?

Kuros are the best dispalys period under the right conditions. However, I think where everyone is taking an exception is that this whole test revolved around the Kuro and its black level in a dark room. These things are tvs guys first and foremost and should be graded as such, and that includes various lighting conditions that someone will experience in their own home. The Kuro shines in a dark environment, but pales next to others in other scenarios. Since this was a 'shootout', it would have been nice to know which tvs excel in certain aspects. Which one runs 24p material best? Which panels buzz more than others? Which has the most user controls reguarding picture? Which ones exhibit IR sooner than the others? Which type of IR wiping features are built into the tv? Who has the most user friendly remote? Which has the best anti-glare screen? Which ones are easily user upgradeable for firmware? What seems to work best in a brightly lit room? I could go on and on with questions that would be answered in a 'real' shootout, but its obvious that this shootout was just to demonstrate the black level differences betwen the tvs, which aren't much of an advantage when the lights come on. As much as I love Kuros, and recognize their absolute advantage (and am saving for a 10g 60"), you have to admit that this was nothing of a shootout except to compare black levels.

Yes, a comparison such that you are proposing would have some benefit for some people. But in the case of a calibrated comparison, where ideal PQ is being sought, purposefully adding ambient light would be completely counter-productive, and would make kevin's long calibration meaningless. Lets remember, this was a study of high-end displays for people looking for the best PQ, not a demonstation of what grandma would like for watching her soaps. And such things are pretty hard to quantify anyway, while there is a very good system in place for quantifying that ideal, low ambient light situtaion which doesn't unnessecarily alter the picture like it does with high ambient light hitting the screen (which happens on all techs)

All of the other things you are saying are addressed in professional reviews, and while important, the shootout cannot address every single aspect (such as IR resitance). The shootout did the most important things however. Calibrate everything, get it in the proper environment, and draw some comparisons on the most important aspects of PQ.

Wow! Some lively debate here. I do not think that most people here feel their was a Pioneer fix (I do not). Instead, I think that some probably felt that they were misled. What I had believed was going to be a fair and democratic competition, which many of us would have preemptively bet on 111 to have won anyway, turned into a Pioneer love fest. I happen to like Pioneer but I would have liked at least some dedicated discussion time for each panel. KM could have given his ISF opinions, the audience after viewing material could have spoken up too. This is where the shoot-out fell short. I do not charge cheating, but instead a somewhat less than equitable execution of the event itself. Still, I thank all involved for a good time and the experience of it all. :D

Once again it sounds like a global conspiracy by Pioneer. Let me give you a hint Tom, Pioneers owners don't NEED a 'reaffirmation' of their purchasing decision. They get that each and every time they press the 'power' button. Instead it is the many LCD fanboys that come to a PLASMA thread that seem to 'need' this reaffirmation.

Your statement sounds suspiciously colored from someone who professes to be 'objective'. That's too bad, it really is.It is "colored" because I object to an event whose outcome was determined in advance by those who advertised it as a comparison but provided a commercial instead. If you mean by "colored," the fact that I have an opinion, then I plead guilty. If you have any reason to question the accuracy or objectivity of that opinion--other than the fact that it happens to run contrary to your own--then I'd like to hear it.

Yup. That's what I was saying about Pioneer owners having no need to blow out LCD threads to 'reaffirm' their purchase...there's no need to, the picture speaks for itself. But for some reason there does seem to be a need for some LCD owners to pollute many Pioneer threads. I wonder why?Not being an LCD owner, I can't speak for them.

Not being an LCD owner, I can't speak for them.

There's lots of other ones here for some twisted reason. Display advancements just really piss them off, apparently. Hard to relate to what's going on inside their heads as they continually troll various threads with their grand tales of pioneer conspiracy.

let's not let this turn into the old LCD Vs Plasma debate OK?

IMHO, there could have been a different complexion on this presentation if the attendees would have asked some tougher questions. That could have addressed the lack of info on the non Pio displays.

Wow, just wow. Im simply floored at the amount of ass umptions being made by people who were not there.What assumptions are you referring to? My beef is what the presenters said and what the data they provided shows.

That said, I have to agree that this was not a shootout, in the truest sense. I dont think Robert really meant it to be either.Perhaps, then he should not have called it a, eh, "shootout." How about "Pioneer road show"? Or, "Demo of Pioneer's latest gear"? Or, "Why Pioneer bests the competition"? Any would have been a more accurate description and given no cause for complaint.

Does Kevin have an account here on AVS?

LOL... My XBR4 owns all Kuros.

























Gotcha!!:D

Just gotta have a little fun. I think we should just be happy that we live in a world that has this tech available. Just think that my XBR4 or a new Panny 800 is miles ahead of what was just available three years ago. Makes me wonder how substantial the improvements will be over the next3 or 4 years. After another year or two, I wonder where they will go with technology since the black levels will have been perfected.

Does Kevin have an account here on AVS?

I hope not, at least I hope he isn't reading this or any related threads. The attacking of his reputation and skills by a few fanboys is insane. People may disagree with him as a calibrator, especially other calibrators, but that in no means makes them right.

I will also say that I quite like samsung plasmas, but in a head-to-hard comparison, the pioneer will win. Simple. Why this is in dispute is beyond me.

Please explain if this was not a subjective KURO Shootout why in the world were there three versions of Kuro up on the wall?

If the panel is so Superior why were three versions needed - you'd think you could pull one version out of the box and calibrate it and make room for more competition up on that wall to compare? Please explain this?

I don't see three versions of Samsung(1), Sony(0), Sharp(0), Panny(1)Zero LED LCD, et al - this limited competition and weighted in favor of this KURO Shootout.

Why were THREE KINGS needed for a Shootout? :D

As another member stated, There were only two kuros. Please make sure you know what you are talking about before spewing misinformation.

Last years 5010 and this years 111fd were there. AND EVEN LAST YEARS KURO WIPED THE FLOOR WITH THE Samsung and LG. Which says alot.
Why would they put two Samsung/LG LCD's up there when not even one of them can beat last years kuro? The people at this shootout were videophiles. Videophiles know whats best thats why most didn't even think an LCD belonged up there.
It was hilarious when they turned one of the LCD's off because one of the ladies in front of it could not stand looking at it.

And why would they even consider putting a sharp up there?
I am pretty sure that the sharp wasn't even considered since it is not a high end display. If you want to compare Visio's, westinghouse's and sharp's then I suggest going to best buy and talk to the 16 year old salemen.

And your comments about ambient light are terribly misinformed. Obviously you have never owned a kuro or experienced one somewhere other than Bestbuy. The Kuro is exceptional with a well lit room.
The only people I hear complaining about the kuro's ability to deal with lighted environments are those like you who don't even own a kuro and are trying to justify thier purchase of an LCD.

Hoping to see if they had a 5020 there today.. I know Kevin has posted that he would not be recommending the 9G Non-Elites:

http://www.tweaktv.com/the-miller-channel/pioneer-pdp-5080-6080-5010-and-6010-calibration-issues-part-ii.html
2008-07-01 11:40:13
By the way the new regular line Pioneers can not be calibrated as they have stripped all the service menu items for that out of the new sets. Only Elites will have the ability to have the grayscale calibrated. As a result I will no longer recommend them.

The problem to me with this position is that the 9G Non-Elites perform better than many others... I assume others would not recommend these models with Calibration being their primary business.

Hoping to see if they had a 5020 there today.. I know Kevin has posted that he would not be recommending the 9G Non-Elites:

http://www.tweaktv.com/the-miller-channel/pioneer-pdp-5080-6080-5010-and-6010-calibration-issues-part-ii.html


The problem to me with this position is that the 9G Non-Elites perform better than many others... I assume others would not recommend these models with Calibration being their primary business.

I agree.
Even with the loss of controls, the XX20's still outperform most everything else with the exception of the elite's.

Black level leads to higher ansi contrast...which is the 'pop' you speak of.
Brightness is a calibration issue and I've yet to hear of a Kuro being to dim for a proper calibration ftl.
Sharpness comes from the sopurce and any decent display has more than enough of it and people who own Kuro's for the most part turn it all the way down/off.(-15)




prepress...what are the 9g's lacking for you?

The 9G sets have only one component input, and I need two. Also the menu options for picture adjustment are diminished, but as I've said elsewhere, the picture options are at least what I have on my current TV, so I'm not necessarily missing anything there.

If I can get an outboard switcher or processor at a good price that takes away the connection complaint.

I was just curious what the measured contrast ratios were for each set? I tried to find it in the thread, but didn't see it anywhere. This seems to be the primary reason why Pioneer is being touted as the best, but there is no perspective.

One through six means very little, if you don't know what the actual results are. It could be significant or immaterial. There could be almost no difference between one and two or or for that matter between one and six. There could be a large difference between two and three, but a small difference between three and four, etc.

Based on many of the threads, the Pioneer has the best contrast ratio. There are threads that state the LG is supposed to be very close to the Panasonic, yet from the results here I cannot determine if that is the case.

I apologize if I missed the measurements in this thread.

The 9G sets have only one component input, and I need two. Also the menu options for picture adjustment are diminished, but as I've said elsewhere, the picture options are at least what I have on my current TV, so I'm not necessarily missing anything there.

If I can get an outboard switcher or processor at a good price that takes away the connection complaint.

what do you need 2 component inputs for?

I attended the flat panel shoot-out today, and figured I'd give my impressions. I am not as technical as many on the forum, but I can describe what I saw and heard. The six sets were a Pioneer 5010, 111, Panasonic 800, Samsung 650 Plasma, LG 60 plasma, and Toshiba LCD. I was sitting to the right of the wall, closest to the Toshiba, the 110, and the 650 which was over the 110.

First, from what I heard, no one seemed to think this was a Kuro commercial. Obviously, the presence of Pioneer personnel suggests a biased event to some. But I did not sense I was being pushed toward any particular set (and at 6'4, 230, I wouldn't be pushed easily); the sets spoke for themselves. All sets were fed the same signal via HDMI.

On the general loop, it was difficult to see profound differences with many scenes. During one or two scenes there was a blue line running vertically down either side of all sets except the 111. During a restaurant scene the Toshiba exhibited a yellowish tinge to skintones; the Samsung was a bit reddish. With an introductory image/slide on the test disc, some of the text was clearer and more obvious on the Toshiba; it stood out from the background more. All sets looked good with this page color-wise.

Not surprisingly, with the lights up, no set showed a black screen in the absence of a feed.

When the lights went down and we saw the test disc pluge patterns for black, the Elite 111 was the clear winner, the 5010 second. On the white pattern the Pioneers were again best. The LG was the worst, I'd say.

With Blu-ray movie material, it was the scenes with black background that established the 111's superiority in that area. With brighter scenes every set looked good, but my favorites were the Pioneers and the Samsung.

On SD the Panasonic looked the worst. Best to me were the 111 and the Samsung. We didn't get any on-board audio, except briefly on the Panasonic. It was so-so.

On an HD feed of the Yankees–A's game, the Panasonic looked a bit washed out. The 111's more neutral skin tones made it a slight preference over the Samsung's redder push for me. But the Samsung still looked good.

My favorite pictures were the 111, 5010, and 650. I found myself focusing on the 111 and 650, even after the official shootout was over and I could get directly in front of all the sets.

Had a blast meeting those who made it today's showing, a true pleasure...

I'll post pics later on...

Oh that clip for the up coming Godfather in Bluray was fantastic, enough to bring goose bumps:)


Djoel

what do you need 2 component inputs for?

Because of how I want to connect my stuff. I want to be able to watch DVD with audio feed through either the TV or my main system with the Marantz universal player; I also want to do the same with my combi-player (DVD/LD). At night, if it's near bedtime and there's no time to immerse myself but I still want to watch a quickie, I can do it. I've read that component is best for cable boxes, so that would be a third connection actually, unless I do HDMI for that. And in theory, I'd ned another S-Video output. This is looking more like outboard help is needed if I insist on this setup. Uh oh.

I had a really great time today. It was a hell of a drive, but well worth it. I learned a lot, met great people, and definitely enjoyed the day. Too bad gas is $4 a gallon...

Anyway, results weren't very surprising. The 111 was better then any other set, with the 5010 in second. Although I expected the Panasonic to come up next, I was very disappointed with the washed out picture it produced, and much preferred the Samsung.

The LG, though not at the same level as the Samsung or Pioneer's, I did actually prefer to the Panasonic. Maybe I was seeing something weird, as I've always liked the Panny's (and own a 58PZ700, among others).

I was most surprised at the fact that all the sets looked good. Good enough to the point where I would be happy with ANY of them. Yes, the blacks on the 111 were significantly better then any other set on the wall, but when we put on the Yankee's game, I had a hard time noticing differences. The Samsung had a red push, and the whites on the 5010 were unnatural, yes, but at home, I doubt I'd ever be able to notice.

We've finally reached the point where pretty much any plasma will be a high performer for practically any customer. A $1500 price premium is getting hard to justify for the 111. Would I do it? Yes. Would an average customer? Probably not. The Godfather on Blu-Ray looked very similar on each set. Again, the 111's blacks were far superior, but I could enjoy the movie on any TV on the wall (with the exception of the Toshiba LCD).

SD performance was pretty mediocre on all the sets. The 111 had the slight edge, but the Samsung was damn impressive. Panasonic was nothing to write home about, and the LG I didn't look at closely enough.

I didn't feel that this was a Pioneer event. Everything was more or less fair. It's hard to not feel there is a bias when everyone goes on and on about the Pioneer, but the facts are clear; the Pioneer is CLEARLY the superior set.

I also got a quick look at the new Kuro front projector (rebradged RS2), and came away VERY impressed. It was freshly calibrated, and looked fantastic.

It was really a pleasure meeting everyone, especially Robert, who put forward the time and energy to do this for everyone. Looking forward to next year!

To those that were there, keep the comments coming, very interesting!

Thanks to Robert, Kevin, the VE staff, and all who made the shoot-out an interesting, fun event. I'd never been to Scarsdale before. As a result, my short list got a bit shorter. I need to crunch some numbers now...

I attended the flat panel shoot-out today, and figured I'd give my impressions. I am not as technical as many on the forum, but I can describe what I saw and heard. The six sets were a Pioneer 5010, 111, Panasonic 800, Samsung 650 Plasma, LG 60 plasma, and Toshiba LCD. I was sitting to the right of the wall, closest to the Toshiba, the 110, and the 650 which was over the 110.

First, from what I heard, no one seemed to think this was a Kuro commercial. Obviously, the presence of Pioneer personnel suggests a biased event to some. But I did not sense I was being pushed toward any particular set (and at 6'4, 230, I wouldn't be pushed easily); the sets spoke for themselves. All sets were fed the same signal via HDMI.

On the general loop, it was difficult to see profound differences with many scenes. During one or two scenes there was a blue line running vertically down either side of all sets except the 111. During a restaurant scene the Toshiba exhibited a yellowish tinge to skintones; the Samsung was a bit reddish. With an introductory image/slide on the test disc, some of the text was clearer and more obvious on the Toshiba; it stood out from the background more. All sets looked good with this page color-wise.

Not surprisingly, with the lights up, no set showed a black screen in the absence of a feed.

When the lights went down and we saw the test disc pluge patterns for black, the Elite 111 was the clear winner, the 5010 second. On the white pattern the Pioneers were again best. The LG was the worst, I'd say.

With Blu-ray movie material, it was the scenes with black background that established the 111's superiority in that area. With brighter scenes every set looked good, but my favorites were the Pioneers and the Samsung.

On SD the Panasonic looked the worst. Best to me were the 111 and the Samsung. We didn't get any on-board audio, except briefly on the Panasonic. It was so-so.

On an HD feed of the Yankees–A's game, the Panasonic looked a bit washed out. The 111's more neutral skin tones made it a slight preference over the Samsung's redder push for me. But the Samsung still looked good.

My favorite pictures were the 111, 5010, and 650. I found myself focusing on the 111 and 650, even after the official shootout was over and I could get directly in front of all the sets.


Thank you SLCentral. This gives some who maybe can't afford or are unwilling to pay the price that an Elite commands an opinion from a person who has seen calibrated units that they would not in a store. And, directly compared to other calibrated units in close proximity. Now this is the expanded objectivity I think we are asking for. I'd like to read other attendees comments and impressions as well.

Prepress, thank you for your comments too! It is a good overall commentary.

It is "colored" because I object to an event whose outcome was determined in advance by those who advertised it as a comparison but provided a commercial instead.

To continue this thought: "shootout", implies a competition between adversarial parties with reasonably equal odds of winning and judged by disinterested and objective jurors. There is a reason why we have "lopsided" in our language.

Further, why did you select a Toshiba set to represent the LCDs rather Samsung 750? Is it because the King just might not like the outcome?

Finally, I suggested normal viewing test conditions at home, not at the beach.

Prepress, thank you for your comments too! It is a good overall commentary.

Thank you.

Something I forgot to mention was that, with the lights up, the Toshiba (as long as I was right in front of it) appeared to have deeper black than the 111. This reversed when the lights went down.

We were there last night, and though we too are not nearly as technically savvy as most people here, we came away with similar impressions as to what most others there have said here:

111 hands-down winner. Then in DARKER scenes I liked the 5010 next, then the Panny. Samsung, then LG.

But in the LIGHTER scenes -- specifically the outdoor wedding in The Godfather blu-ray --- it was the 111, followed by the Samsung, then very close behind or almost tied was the 5010, and then the Panny. The Samsung's colors were a little too much during the darker scenes, but really nice during the lighter ones.

I would have liked to have seen the 5020 instead of the 5010 since we were considering that model too.

That being said, I read Tom's comment here about KM's calibration of the Samsung. Tom, what kind of difference would we have seen if he had calibrated it differently? Very interested if it would have helped the Samsung's colors in the darker scenes.

The event was great; we learned A LOT (Thanks KM and D-Nice!). Everyone had a good time; our hosts were fantastic (Thanks to you all!), and the Pioneer guys were low key and helpful. There was no big push to anyone product, but we all were naturally drawn to the 111 --- at least most of us were, not sure if anyone there wasn't.

KM did go over various points of calibration in the beginning; I have not seen what was aired here, but it was really helpful. The specs weren't printed out in time so I look forward to receiving them via email to look them all over again.

Among some of the slightly out there 'conspiracy' posts, I've seen good points raised about what could have been discussed to make it more of a shoot-out....i.e. features and menu options for each of the panels, etc....but it was extremely helpful to see these panels right next to each other, in the same room, with the same feeds simultaneously, and in varying lighting scenarios. And best of all, it was great to get real-time commentary from all of the experts and enthusiasts there while we were observing. THAT being said, I'd say any of the four panels would be great additions to my livingroom.

Thanks again Robert et al! We're smarter now.

Tom, still would like to hear your thoughts on what differences would have been produced should the Sammy have been calibrated differently.

Cheers. :)

Things are going to get *very* interesting soon...

I unfortunately was relegated to watching the internet feed last night (thanks soso!). Still, even with that crappy streaming quality, my impressions seemed to mirror many...

9G Elite > 5010 > Sammy A650 > Panny 800 (other two not even in the running)

Also, interesting to hear the 18mth production cycle, and how during this cycle, out-of-the-box settings can differ due to shifting subcontractors over time.

I just saw the 55" 2nd Gen local dimming LED Samsung A950 LCD panel at the Samsung Experience store in Manhattan.

In my opinion, this set will really give the Kuro's a run for their money. This set had the blackness of the Sony XEL-1 OLED display I saw at the SonyStyle store. At the same time, this thing was *bright*, as is typical with LCDs. Seriously considering one of these delectable items in Aug when they are rumored to come out.

Next year, if they are kind enough to have "round 3", having an XBR8 and the A950 next to the Kuros would be a reall comparison of the best that LCDs and Plasmas have to offer.

...Please make sure you know what you are talking about before spewing misinformation.

Why would they put two Samsung/LG LCD's up there ...



They didn't.

Next year, if they are kind enough to have "round 3", having an XBR8 and the A950 next to the Kuros would be a reall comparison of the best that LCDs and Plasmas have to offer.

Finally, a sentence that makes sense! THAT will be a shootout! What we just witnessed was a fight with a younger brother.

2nd gen local dimming LED LCD TVs is a very big leap in terms of technology for LCD technology. If you have seen one of these 2nd gen LCD TVs in person, you will know what I mean.

I get the impression that plasmas are reaching the end of its technology maturity while LCD still has some juice left in it.

As a strategic decision, Pioneer probably realized this, hence it's shift to LCD panels after 10g.

After seeing the 55" Sammy A950 for about an hour in person with different source material, I am now really anxious to get a glimpse of Sony's version, the XBR8. Just from what I've been able to tell, to my naked eyes, the black levels and contrast ratio (as we know it's dynamic and not ANSI in these 2nd gen LED LCD TVs) of the Sammy A950 was a little better than the 5020s that I've seen.

Now, this is obviously not a controlled comparison, which is why it would be AWESOME next time if they include the XBR8 and A950 as LCD representatives in the next shootout.

;)

To continue this thought: "shootout", implies a competition between adversarial parties with reasonably equal odds of winning and judged by disinterested and objective jurors. There is a reason why we have "lopsided" in our language. .

Again, Kevin miller does not work for pioneer. He calibrates much more than just pioneers. Test patterns were used to calibrate and the results were clear. You can say "they cheated" and "it's rigged" (which is extremly childish IMO) all you want to, but test patterns do not lie. I have a hard time thinking that you don't already know that.

Further, why did you select a Toshiba set to represent the LCDs rather Samsung 750? Is it because the King just might not like the outcome? ROTFLhttp://www.highdefforum.com/images/smilies/rofl.gif
Probably because the 650 was already there and it couldn't even stand up to last years Kuro. Do you honestly think the 750 would stand a chance? come on, be honest.

They didn't.

point??

The so called shootout wasn't a shootout at all. It was a promotional event for Pioneer. I think the criticism that has been fairly leveled here is that it was billed as something it was not. I'm sure the organizers of the Pepsi Challenge was were fair as well- but that doesn't mean it wasn't marketing.

This isn't to say the Pioneer 111 isn't an amazing TV (I certainly hope it would hope it would be for 2500 bucks more than my Panasonic 850).

I'm sure a lot of work went into the promotional event and I'm glad is was made available to the public - but it wasn't a "shoot-out" and I think members of this board have some legitimate complaints about the way this forum has been used for promotion - I mean, supposedly we come here to find unbiased (not influenced by advertisers and sponsors) information.

Also, this notion of ranking the most important aspects of what makes a good picture (blacklevels, color accuracy, color saturation, resolution) is simply wrong. It's the same as evaluating a diamond you can't say which of cut, color, carat weight, or clarity is the most important. They're all important. A well cut tiny yellow stone sucks. A huge white diamond with visible black specks, feathering and cracks won't be worth much either. You look for a balance. Same with a TV.

As and extreme example -I wouldn't want a 480i TV with infinite black levels and the most amazing colors ever produced because watching HD would look like crap on it. So those who say resolution isn't important, I call BS. Lucky for all of us the resolution standard has basically been settled (for now).

To leave price out of the equation is equally rediculous. If I can achieve 95% of the same level of performance of something that costs twice as much - is it worth paying the extra money? That's entirely subjective to be sure and some people just want the best no matter how much it costs. But most of us deal with trade-offs: If I buy a TV that costs 2500 instead of 5,000 then I can afford an amazing 5.1 system and still have enough left over to install the stuff.

Also, I didn't see much discussion on other features. It really was just more of the same marketing that Pioneer has been pushing for a while now.

That being said, I read Tom's comment here about KM's calibration of the Samsung. Tom, what kind of difference would we have seen if he had calibrated it differently? Very interested if it would have helped the Samsung's colors in the darker scenes.The Samsung has the most sophisticated color management system of any plasma currently on the market. Using it the calibrator can dial in the color performance to match as closely as his equipment will allow the color standards used when the disc was mastered. You would see the material exactly as it was intended by the telecine artist.

If you saw problems with the color performance in low light scenes, it was because it was not properly adjusted, not because of any inherent problems with the display.

Also, this notion of ranking the most important aspects of what makes a good picture (blacklevels, color accuracy, color saturation, resolution) is simply wrong. It's the same as evaluating a diamond you can't say which of cut, color, carat weight, or clarity is the most important. They're all important. A well cut tiny yellow stone sucks. A huge white diamond with visible black specks, feathering and cracks won't be worth much either. You look for a balance. Same with a TV.

This is a very good analogy 10th St.

But some people somehow do have a preference. For example, my wife thinks that "Carat" ranks first among the 4C's. For me, the Clarity of a diamond is most important (even if you can't see it, for me, an F or IF just puts it in a different class of rareness). Of course, that is a personal preference. Which is perhaps the point I'm trying to make.

Ranking Black Levels as the most important might just be a personal preference for some people. And those people gravitate towards sets that can achieve this. Hence, you get a group of people who are fans of PIO, which makes products with the best black levels (we'll see if that's still the case once the 2nd gen local dimming LED LCDs are professionally tested) grouped together sharing the same preference.

We all know arguing with personal preferences leads to nothing but flame wars, so I'd suggest capping it and moving on to other issues.

;)

The so called shootout wasn't a shootout at all. It was a promotional event for Pioneer. .
incorrect. all displays were calibrated to thier best possible picture

As and extreme example -I wouldn't want a 480i TV with infinite black levels and the most amazing colors ever produced because watching HD would look like crap on it. So those who say resolution isn't important, I call BS. Lucky for all of us the resolution standard has basically been settled (for now). .
I think the comparison was more about 720/768p vs 1080/1440p.
Not standard vs hi-def.

To leave price out of the equation is equally rediculous. If I can achieve 95% of the same level of performance of something that costs twice as much - is it worth paying the extra money? That's entirely subjective to be sure and some people just want the best no matter how much it costs. But most of us deal with trade-offs: If I buy a TV that costs 2500 instead of 5,000 then I can afford an amazing 5.1 system and still have enough left over to install the stuff.

Also, I didn't see much discussion on other features. It really was just more of the same marketing that Pioneer has been pushing for a while now.

I disagree, I think price has no place in a shootout. Performance only.
To some, price is not as big a factor as others. Price importance varies from person to person, while PQ matters to everyone.
This shoot-out was to determine which set would render the best quality picture. Not which one is cheaper.

Did you bother to watch the shootout??
Kevin miller stated that he calibrated all sets fairly and would put his reputation on the line.
That is good enough for me.
Are you saying that it is not??

Look pioneer sponsored the event and WON THE SHOOTOUT. they also gave gifts and were there to help pioneer owners by answering questions. They deserve a little recognition for it.

AVS has already stated that this was a non-AVS event before the shootout.
So complaining to AVS about the way the shootout was laid out is pointless and a waste of time.
So this is absolutly no different then someone posting info about CES.


Did he tell you what is the ratio of real life sets he calibrates in real life? Is he as likely to calibrate a Samsung as a Pioneer Elite? I am sure he put his reputation on the line there :D

incorrect. all displays were calibrated to thier best possible picture


.

And you know this because....

2nd gen local dimming LED LCD TVs is a very big leap in terms of technology for LCD technology. If you have seen one of these 2nd gen LCD TVs in person, you will know what I mean.

I get the impression that plasmas are reaching the end of its technology maturity while LCD still has some juice left in it.

As a strategic decision, Pioneer probably realized this, hence it's shift to LCD panels after 10g.

After seeing the 55" Sammy A950 for about an hour in person with different source material, I am now really anxious to get a glimpse of Sony's version, the XBR8. Just from what I've been able to tell, to my naked eyes, the black levels and contrast ratio (as we know it's dynamic and not ANSI in these 2nd gen LED LCD TVs) of the Sammy A950 was a little better than the 5020s that I've seen.

Now, this is obviously not a controlled comparison, which is why it would be AWESOME next time if they include the XBR8 and A950 as LCD representatives in the next shootout.

;)


LED local dimming will probably have almost the blacks of the kuros with all the other LCD shortcomings (poor off-axis and poor motion being the most important). All the LED tech is going to do is try to emulate plasma blacks but keep all the LCD flaws. woo-hoo, sign me up.

As for plasma tech, it continues to move forward. I'd say the lines were much closer two years ago, and as of right now, it is more ahead of lcd than its ever been. Nothing new coming from it? check out http://gizmodo.com/341849/video-of-pioneer-kuro-concept-plasma-shows-how-thin-this-thing-really-is

Panasonic also has their new plant coming online shortly. This will allow the tech to achieve what is impossible for LCD (with content on the screen anyway): Zero minimum luminance. There is no way that LCD is the future of anything. LED LCD is the last advancement for this tech.

Seriously, the constant conspiracy theories have now subsided to some whining about how the organizers of the shootout should have magically travelled forward in time and compared used panels that don't exist on the market yet.

Finally, I suggested normal viewing test conditions at home, not at the beach.


Ugh. If I hear anything more about how they should have tested them in bright light conditions like a certain LCD fanboy's favourite viewing environment at Best Buy my head is going to explode. The concept of not testing the high-end display tech in a proper darkened room is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard.

point??

Point 1: According to Post #581 by Ken Ross, Samsung was represented by PN50A650, a plasma set, not by LN52A650, the best LCD to-date.

Point 2: Your advice Please make sure you know what you are talking about before spewing misinformation to Westa6969 in your post #605 applies to you, too.

So let them make sales! More power to 'em!

The shoot-out sure beats the poorly adjusted mis-placed displays along with the uninformed sales people who want you to buy them you find at most showrooms.

Nobody is stopping any other retailers from doing something different!

Well said.

I was at the Friday night shootout. At first glance with the lights turned up you could make an argument as to which TV looked best. In fact the Toshiba's black level looked very good. But when they dimmed the lights it was no contest, the Pioneer 111 was the best by a mile due to its far superior black level. The Toshiba just fell apart when they dimmed the lights, maybe it had something to do with the fact I was not viewing it head on. I was sitting in the middle and it was the panel on my right.

Seriously, the constant conspiracy theories have now subsided to some whining about how the organizers of the shootout should have magically travelled forward in time and compared used panels that don't exist on the market yet.

relax, no conspiracy theories going on here. the sammy a650 was an excellent representation at the event. and it performed respectably... many ranked it third after the elite and 5010.

which is my case- in about 2 months, the a950 could be out (while the 9g Kuros just entered an 18 month cycle), and at least from my two own eyes, it's quite a big jump from the a650/a750 in terms of performance. similar with the XBR8 which promises tri-led technology (but I haven't seen one with my own eyes yet, so nothing more than just speculation regarding that technology at the moment).

I'd say the lines were much closer two years ago, and as of right now, it is more ahead of lcd than its ever been.

I'd argue that actually right now, after seeing the A950 in person and comparing it with the 5010 and 5020 that I've also seen in person, the gap is much closer right now that 2 years ago.

I'd like to hear your opinion after you've seen the A950 in person as well (or perhaps you already have?).

Don't get me wrong- I'm a huuuuge Pioneer fan and really tried to make it to the event. I still have my trusty Pioneer 503cmx which I bought over 7 years ago- back then, just like now, it was the best plasma (lol, there were no large LCDs back then) panel (along with the Elite version of it). It's still sitting in my living room after all these years. I'm looking to replace it this Xmas, hence my interest in the latest technologies.

I was at the Friday night shootout. At first glance with the lights turned up you could make an argument as to which TV looked best. In fact the Toshiba's black level looked very good. But when they dimmed the lights it was no contest, the Pioneer 111 was the best by a mile due to its far superior black level. The Toshiba just fell apart when they dimmed the lights, maybe it had something to do with the fact I was not viewing it head on. I was sitting in the middle and it was the panel on my right.

Which displays in order did you like after the 111 and why? Thanks in advance.

Point 1: According to Post #581 by Ken Ross, Samsung was represented by PN50A650, a plasma set, not by LN52A650, the best LCD to-date.

Good. The samsung plasma is a very good set. I would take it over the lcd 650 anyday.

This was a plasma shootout with a high-end LCD thrown in for comparison. Now we get these trolls coming in and saying random things for no apparent reason. Why you are even here is beyond me. I have never once posted in the LCD forum or on an LCD shootout thread because I don't own one and have no need to post there.

One can only guess that they are pretty unhappy with whatever display they have. Instead of discussing results like we should be, they have spread their BS and questioned the credibility of many professionals. Good work.

Point 1: According to Post #581 by Ken Ross, Samsung was represented by PN50A650, a plasma set, not by LN52A650, the best LCD to-date.

I stand corrected.

If this is true, then this would be consistent with my viewing of Sammy sets at the experience store. After viewing the A950 for an hour, I strolled around to see the other Sammy sets. Except for the A780 (which also has the 2nd gen LED technology), all other sets looked like they were in a different class altogether... and this includes the A650/750 they had on display.

I think the comparison was more about 720/768p vs 1080/1440p.
Not standard vs hi-def.

I know this - I was using an extreme example to make a point, of course resolution is important. Just as important as black levels, brightness, color, saturation.

With black levels - the difference between .002 fl and .009 fl is the same kind of difference between 720p and 1080p - if its something you notice and important to you - great. But we're talking about subtle differences.

relax, no conspiracy theories going on here. the sammy a650 was an excellent representation at the event. and it performed respectably... many ranked it third after the elite and 5010.


Agreed. None of that was directed at you, only the people that latched on to your comment. Actually this was talked about earlier in this thread as well which is what I was really referring to.

The conspiracy theories have subsided a bit as people realized how ridiculous they sounded.

Ugh. If I hear anything more about how they should have tested them in bright light conditions like a certain LCD fanboy's favourite viewing environment at Best Buy my head is going to explode. The concept of not testing the high-end display tech in a proper darkened room is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard.

Either I can't write or you can't read. Where did I say that they should be tested in "bright light" or that Best Buy is my "favorite viewing environment"?

What I did say is that a shootout should be based on normal conditions at home where TV sets are going to be used. "Normal" includes cloudy day, sunny day, at night with moderate light and, as a concession to guys like you, in a cave. ALL at home. But I am repeating myself.

The Best Buy is anything but "bright light". Costco is. So is Sam's Club. Those are warehouses. Best Buy displays their flat panels on a wall with dimmed lights, if any. Same for CC. Go there tomorrow to see what I mean. If there any problems with these two chains, excessive light is not on the list.

For future use, please do not argue with statements I didn't make. This is known as putting words in one's mouth. Very annoying.

The conspiracy theories have subsided a bit as people realized how ridiculous they sounded.

Yes, I understand. Some of the earlier posts did have that kind of content.

:)

I was so close to buying a 5020 to replace my aging 503cmx. Jumping to 3rd gen to 9th gen would have been a huge leap!!! Just goes to show how well PIO sets last and age over time.

However, my latest trip to the Samsung Experience center and viewing the A950 has me put on the brakes temporarily. I'll wait until I read some professional reviews of this set before deciding to buy the 5020.

This isn't to say the Pioneer 111 isn't an amazing TV (I certainly hope it would hope it would be for 2500 bucks more than my Panasonic 850)..

Your math must be way better than mine (or you are not using USD), as the TH-50PZ850U has an MSRP of $3299.95 vs the PRO-111FD MSRP of $5000. Not to mention, the 850 isn't even out whereas the 111 is already shipping and in stores.

Your math must be way better than mine (or you are not using USD), as the TH-50PZ850U has an MSRP of $3299.95 vs the PRO-111FD MSRP of $5000. Not to mention, the 850 isn't even out whereas the 111 is already shipping and in stores.


The Panasonic 850u has been out since late May or early June.

This was a plasma shootout with a high-end LCD thrown in for comparison. Now we get these trolls coming in and saying random things for no apparent reason. .

In law, there is a patient-doctor privilage. Once the defendant says anything about his doctor or health, the privilage is gone. The same concept applies here: by throwing an LCD for comparison, the "shootout" became fair game to all of us.

The mystery that I am trying to get an answer to, so far without success, is why the LCD used for "comparison" was not the LN52A650, clearly the best LCD so far? Does asking a question like this make me a troll?

I know this - I was using an extreme example to make a point, of course resolution is important. Just as important as black levels, brightness, color, saturation.

With black levels - the difference between .002 fl and .009 fl is the same kind of difference between 720p and 1080p - if its something you notice and important to you - great. But we're talking about subtle differences.
Here's an example of someone who has absolutely no clue what he's talking about... Why bother? :rolleyes:

The mystery that I am trying to get an answer to, so far without success, is why the LCD used for "comparison" was not the LN52A650, clearly the best LCD so far?

Perhaps they couldn't get a hold of one in time? I can't imagine that they think the Tosh is better than the A650.

Perhaps they couldn't get a hold of one in time? I can't imagine that they think the Tosh is better than the A650.

I am less kind than you are. They knew the 650 would score better in their shootout that is friendly to glossy screens. Toshiba, having the matte screen, would be my choice but in a test where darkness is the rule, the 650 would be a better competitor.

I believe the only reason they chose the Toshiba is because it won the LCD shoot-out.

To the organizer's credit, he openly asked Sony to provide them with an XBR8 for the shootout.

This was documented in another thread.

So I do believe the organizers had good intent in trying to represent the best LCD for the shootout.

Me on the left Priscilla, Daniel, Mike, Vashti, Scott, Charles, D nice, and Robert.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/FlatpanelShootout025.jpg

Even though there was plenty of great eats at Roberts, but looking at the flat panel worked up an appetite

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/FlatpanelShootout023.jpg

Lots of love none of the bickering, egos where checked at the door, great food, and even better conversations all around.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/FlatpanelShootout022.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/FlatpanelShootout016.jpg

Back to business! Bottom row The elite smack in the middle, tosh on the right...
Above the tosh, LG, next to the LG Sammy left to the Samsung Panasonic..

Thank you Robert, for for your kind ,and warm hospitality.


DJoel

I've been reading through all of posts in this thread, and I am very surprised by a number of "thoughts" being put forth by the pro and con posters of the shootout. Some things that should be considered....

1) where do you think that Robert got the non-pioneer TV's from? I'm sure that Robert had 1 or maybe 2 models in his store stock, but the other TV's need to either by purchased by Roberts store (which is asking a lot), donated from local retailers who wanted to contribute to this event, donated from local owners, and highly unlikely, from other product's sales reps. All these people saying that the event should have had xxx model, and from xxx model year etc... for a free event, how was Robert supposed to get these models? Maybe next year he should start a fund raising event prior to the shootout, and people can donate several thousand dollars to make sure the models that they want reviewed are present.

2) People getting hung up on the word shoot and explaining why this wasn't a "real shoot out". Please check your dictionary of what this word actually means....

"1.
a. A gunfight.
b. A battle between military forces.
c. Slang A dispute or conflict to settle a disagreement: The marriage ended in a legal shootout.
2. Sports
a. A high-scoring period or game.
b. A means of resolving a tie after overtime in soccer and often in hockey, in which five players from each side alternately take individual shots on a goal defended by a goalie"

Nowhere does the dictionary state that a shoot out involves 30 plasma screens, calibrated by a legion of ISF calibrators, which the panels have to best tested on specific conditions to determine a fair winner. I'm sure that the Pioneer, Samsung, Toshiba, etc... sales Reps would love to put on their soccer shoes, head outside and see who can score the most goals to determine which of their products is best.

For all those people who wanted weeks worth of testing performed on the sets that they "think" should be in event, Robert posted right from the outset that this event was going to occur after hours at this store and be about 6-10 hours total over two nights, including drinks, sushi, snacks, special speakers, Q&A etc... I don't know about you, but when I "hear" about a scientific impartial plasma testing event, the first things that come to mind are people downing several glasses of wine while stuffing their face with sushi to prove which panel is best.

Honestly, if people had expectations of what this event was supposed to be, and were "caught of guard" you really need to sit back, shake your head, and wonder where "YOU" went wrong, not where Robert "messed" up.

Now the negative Nancies did have a few points about how the general perceptions from people NOT there in person that were valid. 1) no one should be wearing their free Pioneer T-shirts until the event is over. 2) if no other companies sales Reps are going to be in attendance, then Pioneer shouldn't have anyone there either. If the other Reps can't make it, but the Pioneer Reps can, then Pioneer should remove their T-shirts, put on jeans, and just enjoy the event like everyone else without identifying themselves.

I for one, wasn't their in person, and I watched the web casts. The only thing that caught me off guard and left me annoyed was that 20 minute Pioneer commercial from "Hollywood" that we could have downloaded from the Pioneer website. I also didn't understand the showing of the Godfather as demo material which was "copyrighted" and the feed was caught off. I'm sure they could have used other demo material to keep the web viewer involved.

I am very much looking forward to next years event, and I am sure the event will evolve as time goes on. Thanks Robert for inviting us into your store (either in person or over web), thanks for being proactive in creating events where those obsessed with video can meet and greet. Special thanks for making D-nice to appear on camera :)

Is their a noticeable difference in brightness 8g vs 9g? Even calibrated?

Can't say I saw a big difference in that area Zues.

Your logic is faulty Ken.
Movie theaters use a projection system which require a dark environment.
Flat panel displays like plasmas and LCD are designed to perform under various lighting conditions, including sunlight. A movie theater projection system would obviously fail there.
Just because a Kuro wont do as well under ambient lightning doesn't mean others can't achieve very good results in that environment.

"Designed to perform" and perform "accurately" are two different things my friend.

I'm not sure how this was conducted, but unless each person had the opportunity to view all of the sets on their own and ranked all of the TVs before meeting with the other participants -the results are not going to be very conclusive. Also, the identity of the sets should be hidden, etc. It's just "human nature" for people to be influenced by other people's opinions or authority figures (in this case Pioneer representation). In other words, most of the subjective opinions here hold limited value unless the environment was controlled. I am sure it was great fun for the participants and it was probably the best way for many people to view all of these TVs in one sitting, but I would not base my purchasing decision on this thread.

I'm not doubting that the Pioneer is the best TV, nor am I trying to say that great efforts were not made to conduct this shootout. However, this certainly can't be considered the definitive, end all analysis of the TVs viewed.

That is why I would like to see some objective measured results in conjunction with the subjective opinions expressed in this thread. I see rankings for contrast ratios, but not the actual measured contrast ratios (rankings alone, almost completely useless - if the Pioneer is better than the Samsung well by how much). Although, I get concerned when the Toshiba does surprisingly well in a ranking and it is stated that it was probably an error. Well then why aren't the Panasonic results an error, etc.

One thing that I have noticed with reviews is that the faults of the component believed to be the best are easily dismissed. For example, many of the Pioneers do poorly with regard to color (see Pioneer PDP-5020 CNET review - yes I know it was not part of the shootout) - yet that is so easily dismissed in many of the threads. Many professional reviews are guilty of this in many of their speaker reviews - where a $10,000+ speaker measures "less than optimally" - yet it is still an "A" speaker because the reviewer did not perceive an issue during his listening tests. In the end, the only thing that really matters is your own personal opinion - but I do think that measurements give you an indication of performance and potential strengths and weaknesses.

And that assumption, that black levels were the most important, defined the bias in the so called shootout.
Look, I am happy you guys received further affirmation for your kuro purchases/love fest. However this was hardly an objective competition.

When you understand the physics of what makes up a good picture, give us a call. You obviously don't or you wouldn't have said what you just did nor insinuate this was the rationale for the 'bias'. Oh yeah, and because YOU say it wasn't an objective test doesn't make it so. If you were there you would have had perhaps a bit more credibility, but you weren't. So instead you take cheap shots armed with bullets of ignorance.

Have a nice day.

Your math must be way better than mine (or you are not using USD), as the TH-50PZ850U has an MSRP of $3299.95 vs the PRO-111FD MSRP of $5000. Not to mention, the 850 isn't even out whereas the 111 is already shipping and in stores.

My math is accurate. I paid 2500 for the 50pz850 through EPP. 2500 more for slightly better black levels? Meh - I'm enjoying an incredible TV and hasn't seem lacking in the least.

Surprised and dissapointed the Sammy A750 LCD wasnt included in the shootout...


Its a very highly rated LCD all over the net. umr gives it high praise AND I am pretty sure it was supposed to be there in the first place....

I have seen the Toshiba LCD and the Sammy side by side.....IMO, the Toshiba is inferior to the A750.....

It is "colored" because I object to an event whose outcome was determined in advance by those who advertised it as a comparison but provided a commercial instead.


"Outcome was determined in advance"? Says who Tom? You? How do you know this? Are you insinuating the calibrations were rigged? Do you know that Robert called Pioneer asking if this shootout and Kevin's ISF calibrations were OK, not knowing who would come out best?

Or are you simply saying that everyone knows the Pioneers are best and that's why their praise is universal? If so, does that mean that a shootout is any less valid? Can there be no interest in who comes in 2nd or 3rd for those now wishing to spend the premium for the Pioneer.

No sir, it is YOU who appears to be very misguided and on some type of 'mission'. When can we expect to see YOUR shootout?

IMHO, there could have been a different complexion on this presentation if the attendees would have asked some tougher questions. That could have addressed the lack of info on the non Pio displays.

Any and all questions were entertained at my session and I have no reason to believe there was any difference in the way questions were handled in the Friday night session.

If questions weren't asked, I suppose it might be indicative of the fact that there was little interest in the non-Pioneer displays after seeing the results.

What assumptions are you referring to? My beef is what the presenters said and what the data they provided shows.

Perhaps, then he should not have called it a, eh, "shootout." How about "Pioneer road show"? Or, "Demo of Pioneer's latest gear"? Or, "Why Pioneer bests the competition"? Any would have been a more accurate description and given no cause for complaint.

No Tom, your beef is with the way you feel the Samsung was presented. Why don't you send a PM to Kevin Miller and ask him. Don't you think that approach would have a bit more integrity than whining here in a thread that Kevin might not even read?

And if Robert had called this event "Why Pioneer bests the competition", how is that any different than a shootout since inevitably the same preparation would have gone into it? To get so hung up in semantics as opposed to RESULTS, is truly staggering.

When you understand the physics of what makes up a good picture, give us a call. You obviously don't or you wouldn't have said what you just did nor insinuate this was the rationale for the 'bias'. Oh yeah, and because YOU say it wasn't an objective test doesn't make it so. If you were there you would have had perhaps a bit more credibility, but you weren't. So instead you take cheap shots armed with bullets of ignorance.

Ken, this goes back to the analogy 10th st posted about Diamonds and 4c's. A GIA expert will cringe if you tell him/her that Carat is the most important. But that is what many non-experts will say, as they want the "biggest" rock they can afford. Whereas the trained GIA expert will say the Cut or Clarity, which takes education and training to understand is more important than Carat or size- and there is a science behind why it makes a diamond "sparkle".

I think that sometimes, personal preferences can supersede science at times. Perhaps, this is one of those cases.

I know marketing when I see it - the flat panel shoot out was a marketing event for Pioneer. That doesn't mean the Pioneer TV is nothing short of amazing, I'm certain it is (for the prices they charge it should be). But the shootout was billed as something it wasn't and I think that's what annoys some people here, including myself. Viral marketing may be effective - it may even be speak the truth - but its still marketing.

I get the impression that plasmas are reaching the end of its technology maturity while LCD still has some juice left in it.


Well we read the same thing a couple of years ago and Pioneer pretty much threw a bunch of cold water on that. With the 10g and 0 MLL, we probably will have come close to the end of the tech curve for plasmas...how much further can you go after that?

But since there's still a pretty significant gap between LCD PQ in general and plasmas, I would agree that LCD has further to go in its techno curve.

Also, this notion of ranking the most important aspects of what makes a good picture (blacklevels, color accuracy, color saturation, resolution) is simply wrong.

The 'notion' of what makes a good picture isn't a 'notion', it's science. Kevin discussed it as well as the research that's been conducted surrounding it. This research was conducted long before the Kuros ever came on the scene and Pioneer was not part of that process. Again, had you been there you would not have said this. Some might like to reinvent the equation to suit the display you thought should have won, but fortunately we have science that's a bit more objective on this subject. ;)

You can't honestly say it wasn't a flat panel shoot out. Even though it maybe looked at as biased it was still a Flat Panel Shootout. It was not a 'Pioneer is awesome party'. Though it was sponsored by Pioneer a non-biased person calibrated all the panels. How is that not fair? Because there are more Pioneer products?

If you put those SAME televisions up in a different shootout, it would yield the same results, REGARDLESS of sponsorship. JUST because it was sponsored by Pioneer, that gives people the right to say oh well this was Pioneer biased.

The Samsung has the most sophisticated color management system of any plasma currently on the market. Using it the calibrator can dial in the color performance to match as closely as his equipment will allow the color standards used when the disc was mastered. You would see the material exactly as it was intended by the telecine artist.



Actually Tom, if the Samsung were indeed 100% accurate in terms of color rendition, do you 'really' believe that it would then show the material 'exactly as intended by the telecine artist' as you so stated? So other picture parameters play no role in this? Black levels, contrast ratios, gamma curves etc. have no part in this equation? Interesting. It appears we have just greatly simplified an ISF calibration as well as redefined what constitutes an accurate picture.

Good. The samsung plasma is a very good set. I would take it over the lcd 650 anyday.

This was a plasma shootout with a high-end LCD thrown in for comparison. Now we get these trolls coming in and saying random things for no apparent reason. Why you are even here is beyond me. I have never once posted in the LCD forum or on an LCD shootout thread because I don't own one and have no need to post there.

One can only guess that they are pretty unhappy with whatever display they have. Instead of discussing results like we should be, they have spread their BS and questioned the credibility of many professionals. Good work.

With all the Pioneer Kuro Envy, I think they need a spiritual visit from Dr. Phil. One negative poster sounds like he perfers to watch his TV at midday from the swimming pool. Another knucklehead wants to hold a "shootout" at WorstBuy. Yeah sure, right, you can count me in...What a friggin rip!:D One real bright boy even wants to calibrate his display to the Sun spots...yeah, and this of course was how he feels all average working Americans like to watch TV. Good for a few laughs, for sure.:D

With black levels - the difference between .002 fl and .009 fl is the same kind of difference between 720p and 1080p - if its something you notice and important to you - great. But we're talking about subtle differences.

I would have to disagree with you on that one.
0.002 vs 0.009 is quite a black level difference.

While at normal viewing distance the human eye has an extremly hard time telling the difference between 768p/1080p. One of the best displays I have owned was a 768p 5080. And I would take it over any 1080p lcd on the market. Definitly over the Samsung 71F and Sony XBR4 I had.

oh and just for clarification, D-Nice measured 0.0014 on his 6020 Kuro.

I am less kind than you are. They knew the 650 would score better in their shootout that is friendly to glossy screens. Toshiba, having the matte screen, would be my choice but in a test where darkness is the rule, the 650 would be a better competitor.

And who thought the conspiracy theories were over? :D

It never ends.

Some might like to reinvent the equation to suit the display you thought should have won, but fortunately we have science that's a bit more objective on this subject. ;)

Did I say who I thought should have won?

I'm perfectly aware that all things being equal - the Pioneer is a superior display. I've not seen the 111 but was a big fan of the 110 and the reviews have been impressive - it's also priced that way.

But never mind that - the problem I have was the way this forum was used for a marketing event but billed it as something else - that's a shame.

I know marketing when I see it - the flat panel shoot out was a marketing event for Pioneer. That doesn't mean the Pioneer TV is nothing short of amazing, I'm certain it is (for the prices they charge it should be). But the shootout was billed as something it wasn't and I think that's what annoys some people here, including myself. Viral marketing may be effective - it may even be speak the truth - but its still marketing.

Well if that was marketing then the Pio reps need to re attend school. I was at the friday night event and the Pio reps were the most low key people I ever saw.
I think they knew with out a doubt that the panels would speak for themselves.

I am less kind than you are. They knew the 650 would score better in their shootout that is friendly to glossy screens. Toshiba, having the matte screen, would be my choice but in a test where darkness is the rule, the 650 would be a better competitor.

It never ends.
If they would have used the 650 lcd then you would be saying that the 950 should have been there, and then the XBR8, etc.

If the Samsung 650 would have been thrown into the mix, it still would have been lucky to beat the panasonic plasma (which it wouldn't have). It would not have even beat last years Kuro either.
As for the 9th Gen Kuro, It wouldn't have stood a chance.

Surprised and dissapointed the Sammy A750 LCD wasnt included in the shootout...


Its a very highly rated LCD all over the net. umr gives it high praise AND I am pretty sure it was supposed to be there in the first place....

I have seen the Toshiba LCD and the Sammy side by side.....IMO, the Toshiba is inferior to the A750.....

Once again, Robert had space constraints, time constraints and I'm sure expense constraints. Robert had the store essentially closed during several hours he could have been selling product. How many retailers would have done that? Any? No matter what he chose, someone would have said something was left out. He did the best he could and all of us who attended owe he and Wendy a big 'thank you'. :)

I think that sometimes, personal preferences can supersede science at times. Perhaps, this is one of those cases.

There's no question that preference can and does trump science (accuracy). If it didn't, there would be no need for any picture controls at all. I've already given my own example in choosing what is the 'less accurate' color space 1 on my Kuro. I've chosen this because to my eyes it more closely mimics what I see in real life and I've made a conscious decision to deviate from Rec709. But the science of what makes a more accurate picture in terms of conforming to known standards is unyielding.

Well if that was marketing then the Pio reps need to re attend school. I was at the friday night event and the Pio reps were the most low key people I ever saw.
I think they knew with out a doubt that the panels would speak for themselves.

The whole point of viral marketing is to create the impression of spontaneous word-of-mouth enthusiasm. The pioneer reps have done well to identify other individuals with high Social Network Potential (certain popular posters on this board) and let them speak for them. The whole point of stealth marketing is to appear low-key and spontaneous. I'm just calling the event what it what it really was - a promotion.

With all the Pioneer Kuro Envy, I think they need a spiritual visit from Dr. Phil. One negative poster sounds like he perfers to watch his TV at midday from the swimming pool. Another knucklehead wants to hold a "shootout" at WorstBuy. Yeah sure, right, you can count me in...What a friggin rip!:D One real bright boy even wants to calibrate his display to the Sun spots...yeah, and this of course was how he feels all average working Americans like to watch TV. Good for a few laughs, for sure.:D

+1

I think it is sad that so many are complaining and acting like this.
It looks like this shootout has attracted the regular Trolls. Which is a shame.

Robert put alot of work into this event and did a great job and I amoung others, thank him.
Robert also sent D-Nice the PDP-6020FD and PRO-111FD at his own expense so all of us AVS Kuro owners would have our reference settings and get an honest review.
And D-Nice Volunteers his own time to give all of us AVS'ers the reviews and reference settings.

I think it is a shame that instead of many thanks and posts of appreciation that they should be getting, Robert and D-nice will be greeted by childish posts and criticizing when they log on to AVS to see how everyone liked the event.

So from Myself and I am sure some others, Thanks Guys for all you do and have done in the Past. You guys are a true asset to this Forum! Your work and help is appreciated by many.

The whole point of viral marketing is to create the impression of spontaneous word-of-mouth enthusiasm. The pioneer reps have done well to identify other individuals with high Social Network Potential (certain popular posters on this board) and let them speak for them. The whole point of stealth marketing is to appear low-key and spontaneous. I'm just calling the event what it what it really was - a promotion.

Dude, you may say that to the kids dropping by after school at WorstBuy, but many of us have been buying TV's for over 30+ years and actually DO keep up w/ALL VIDEO TECH. Play other folks for Chumps if you like, but to think we're somehow fooled or scammed by ANY method dreamed up by you or others is totally ridiculous. Get a grip, OK.

"Outcome was determined in advance"? Says who Tom? You? How do you know this? Are you insinuating the calibrations were rigged? Do you know that Robert called Pioneer asking if this shootout and Kevin's ISF calibrations were OK, not knowing who would come out best?

Or are you simply saying that everyone knows the Pioneers are best and that's why their praise is universal? If so, does that mean that a shootout is any less valid? Can there be no interest in who comes in 2nd or 3rd for those now wishing to spend the premium for the Pioneer.

No sir, it is YOU who appears to be very misguided and on some type of 'mission'. When can we expect to see YOUR shootout?

No Tom, your beef is with the way you feel the Samsung was presented. Why don't you send a PM to Kevin Miller and ask him. Don't you think that approach would have a bit more integrity than whining here in a thread that Kevin might not even read?There is no point talking to a fanatic. It's like arguing with a Jehovah's Witness about the end of days.

I have made two substantive claims: the event was falsely advertised and the competing displays were not properly calibrated. I know that for a fact with respect to the Samsung.

As far as I can tell you don't dispute either of these claims, so lacking anything of substance to say you resort to sarcasm and silly name-calling. I guess I am "misguided" because I just haven't seen the TRUTH, and I am a "whiner" because I have written something that irritates you. I lack "integrity" because--now what's the reason?--I criticize the event publicly rather than privately to KM. So do all comments on the forum about this event lack integrity, or just the ones you don't like? Just what are the criteria here? To be clear, my intent in mentioning this was not to improve KM's knowledge of Samsung products. He is perfectly capable of doing that on his own. My comments were aimed at the audience, some of whom (not you, of course) were actually interested in learning something about all of the displays.

Actually, you and I agree on one point: the Pioneers were destined to win the shootout. You think that this because your religious conversion means that you simply cannot imagine anything else else happening. (That's the nature of fanaticism. It precludes all other possibilities.) I, on the other hand, think that this was a Pioneer marketing event, and the purpose of such events is not a serious evaluation of facts, but an attempt to win new customers. For such events, the outcome is not in doubt.

As I have said before, I think that the Elite may very well have won a completely fair and neutral evaluation in any case, so all of this controversy could have been avoided by a less heavy-handed approach. I have also said that I don't think that KM's failure to properly calibrate the Samsung was a conspiracy. My guess is that he just didn't do his homework in advance because there was no point. It wasn't a serious attempt to compare products, so why bother?

The only area where I harbor conspiratorial thoughts is the fact that they didn't show the 5020, despite the fact that the event was announced by the organizer with this description:

"This event will include only the very latest flagship products from the major CE manufacturers."

Clearly, this stated policy changed, but only with respect to Pioneer. The fact that Miller has written publicly (whoops, I guess this shows he has no integrity) that he will no longer recommend the non-Elite Pioneers because it appears that they have crippled the ability of calibrators to enter the service menu and adjust the grayscale. This issue is in flux as I speak, and the ISF has no official word on the subject. I am awaiting official word, but as of now it doesn't look good. D-Nice apparently has a RS232 approach to fix this, but he has yet to post any specifics, so no one can verify his results.

Actually Tom, if the Samsung were indeed 100% accurate in terms of color rendition, do you 'really' believe that it would then show the material 'exactly as intended by the telecine artist' as you so stated? So other picture parameters play no role in this? Black levels, contrast ratios, gamma curves etc. have no part in this equation? Interesting. It appears we have just greatly simplified an ISF calibration as well as redefined what constitutes an accurate picture.You are really working hard here to find something to criticize. The question I was answering was about color accuracy. It was not about all the factors that go into making a good image. A fair reading of what I wrote makes this obvious.

Well I went today and I am far from a videophile, but I do like to have the best of things. My untrained eyes told me that the Elite was the best, but what the shootout showed me that most people are not talking about is how great the other sets are. Im my opinion the 5010 was extremely good but to my surprise the Samsung PQ looked very good if not up at the top. I was very impressed with the A650 watching the Blue Ray of the Godfather as well as some of the other clips that were shown. The test patterns did show the Pioneers being better, but in the "real world" viewings of actual videos the differences really became so minute that buying any one of these displays you would not be unhappy. I do own a 6010 and at one point saw myself looking at the 5010 too much, wanting to see how the others looked. Again they were all incredible displays that looked almost perfect, but the Elite was noticably better than the rest. Do I want to run out and replace my 6010 with a 111/151, no. I my opinion it wasn't worth the extra money, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the best.

There is no point talking to a fanatic. It's like arguing with a Jehovah's Witness about the end of days.

I have made two substantive claims: the event was falsely advertised and the competing displays were not properly calibrated. I know that for a fact with respect to the Samsung.

As far as I can tell you don't dispute either of these claims, so lacking anything of substance to say you resort to sarcasm and silly name-calling. I guess I am "misguided" because I just haven't seen the TRUTH, and I am a "whiner" because I have written something that irritates you. I lack "integrity" because--now what's the reason?--I criticize the event publicly rather than privately to KM. So do all comments on the forum about this event lack integrity, or just the ones you don't like? Just what are the criteria here? To be clear, my intent in mentioning this was not to improve KM's knowledge of Samsung products. He is perfectly capable of doing that on his own. My comments were aimed at the audience, some of whom (not you, of course) were actually interested in learning something about all of the displays.

Actually, you and I agree on one point: the Pioneers were destined to win the shootout. You think that this because your religious conversion means that you simply cannot imagine anything else else happening. (That's the nature of fanaticism. It precludes all other possibilities.) I, on the other hand, think that this was a Pioneer marketing event, and the purpose of such events is not a serious evaluation of facts, but an attempt to win new customers. For such events, the outcome is not in doubt.

As I have said before, I think that the Elite may very well have won a completely fair and neutral evaluation in any case, so all of this controversy could have been avoided by a less heavy-handed approach. I have also said that I don't think that KM's failure to properly calibrate the Samsung was a conspiracy. My guess is that he just didn't do his homework in advance because there was no point. It wasn't a serious attempt to compare products, so why bother?

The only area where I harbor conspiratorial thoughts is the fact that they didn't show the 5020, despite the fact that the event was announced by the organizer with this description:

"This event will include only the very latest flagship products from the major CE manufacturers."

Clearly, this stated policy changed, but only with respect to Pioneer. The fact that Miller has written publicly (whoops, I guess this shows he has no integrity) that he will no longer recommend the non-Elite Pioneers because it appears that they have crippled the ability of calibrators to enter the service menu and adjust the grayscale. This issue is in flux as I speak, and the ISF has no official word on the subject. I am awaiting official word, but as of now it doesn't look good. D-Nice apparently has a RS232 approach to fix this, but he has yet to post any specifics, so no one can verify his results.


Hey Tom, what are you trying to prove here??...that you can buy a much less expensive Samsung and somehow magically get it to out perform the evil expensive Pioneer Kuro?? Good luck with that one, but please come visit anytime.

Well if we're near the end of plasma improvement with blacks with next year's 10Gs let me ask this:

can plasma brightness and motion resolution be improved much more?

If not then buy a 10G next year and hold onto it forever!

I'm not sure how this was conducted, but unless each person had the opportunity to view all of the sets on their own and ranked all of the TVs before meeting with the other participants -the results are not going to be very conclusive. Also, the identity of the sets should be hidden, etc. It's just "human nature" for people to be influenced by other people's opinions or authority figures (in this case Pioneer representation). In other words, most of the subjective opinions here hold limited value unless the environment was controlled. I am sure it was great fun for the participants and it was probably the best way for many people to view all of these TVs in one sitting, but I would not base my purchasing decision on this thread.

I'm not doubting that the Pioneer is the best TV, nor am I trying to say that great efforts were not made to conduct this shootout. However, this certainly can't be considered the definitive, end all analysis of the TVs viewed.

That is why I would like to see some objective measured results in conjunction with the subjective opinions expressed in this thread. I see rankings for contrast ratios, but not the actual measured contrast ratios (rankings alone, almost completely useless - if the Pioneer is better than the Samsung well by how much). Although, I get concerned when the Toshiba does surprisingly well in a ranking and it is stated that it was probably an error. Well then why aren't the Panasonic results an error, etc.

One thing that I have noticed with reviews is that the faults of the component believed to be the best are easily dismissed. For example, many of the Pioneers do poorly with regard to color (see Pioneer PDP-5020 CNET review - yes I know it was not part of the shootout) - yet that is so easily dismissed in many of the threads. Many professional reviews are guilty of this in many of their speaker reviews - where a $10,000+ speaker measures "less than optimally" - yet it is still an "A" speaker because the reviewer did not perceive an issue during his listening tests. In the end, the only thing that really matters is your own personal opinion - but I do think that measurements give you an indication of performance and potential strengths and weaknesses.

I would bet that those that attended, for the most part, if not all, have a better feeling now for those units on display than they had reading all of the written reviews up to this time. I also disagree that faults on any of the displays are ignored. I certainly take them into consideration as I'm reviewing each unit, but I also don't necessarily take any one review as my only source for information.

You make many good points. I only think you expect too much from this type of forum. Noone can make an in depth review fo 6 flat panels in 2-4 hrs and I never expected that type of info. I sure wished I could have been there to view all of the flat panels, in a controlled environment, with my own eyes.

Art, this ain't over till its over..."Yogism". Plasma has more advancements to make LCD's head swim. They can't keep up no matter how fast they run. A losing proposition. LCD better look behind them at OLED or FED, because that will be the market that will replace them, not large screen plasma displays. So much for crystal ball talk.

Hey Tom, what are you trying to prove here??...that you can buy a much less expensive Samsung and somehow magically get it to out perform the evil expensive Pioneer Kuro?? Good luck with that one, but please come visit anytime.No. That is not what I am trying to prove.

+1

I think it is sad that so many are complaining and acting like this.
It looks like this shootout has attracted the regular Trolls. Which is a shame.

Robert put alot of work into this event and did a great job and I amoung others, thank him.
Robert also sent D-Nice the PDP-6020FD and PRO-111FD at his own expense so all of us AVS Kuro owners would have our reference settings and get an honest review.
And D-Nice Volunteers his own time to give all of us AVS'ers the reviews and reference settings.

I think it is a shame that instead of many thanks and posts of appreciation that they should be getting, Robert and D-nice will be greeted by childish posts and criticizing when they log on to AVS to see how everyone liked the event.

So from Myself and I am sure some others, Thanks Guys for all you do and have done in the Past. You guys are a true asset to this Forum! Your work and help is appreciated by many.

+1.

Thank you, Robert.

Hi, this is SoSo the IP video feed guy. I finally was able to get online and, Wow, the amount of comments and posts and arguments, was it heated or what! It took me 3 hours to catch up all the post on this thread and I notice my thread is locked and have not had a chance to read over there yet.

I would like to clarify something. On 7/17 (Thursday) morning, I noticed nobody was stepping up to broadcast the event. I said to myself, why not me? So I quickly put together something for the broadcast and called Robert to see if he is still interested in IP Broadcasting. And I showed him the testing of the SoSo channel. He liked it and kind of agreed to do it. He couldn't pay to much attention to me b/c he was too busy setting panels up. In the afternoon, I was able to finally secure all the necessary equipments (all of them are borrowed except for my Sony DV camcorder) and started my "interested in watching the event live?" thread. I got great responses from all of you and decided it should be worth doing it. And thank you for all the Soso channel testers for feedbacks and comments. I finally got an email from Robert and spoke with with at 1:00 am 7/18 (Friday) to confirm everyone was ok to appear live as well as all the material shown without any legal issues.

Then that was it. I arrived at 5:30 pm but has to find a longer 4 pins to 4 pins firewire cable for my camcorder so after the tripod, I can hand held the camcorder for the remaining. I was able to set things up at around 6:00 pm and if you watch the video, you knew what happen next. whatever you want to put it: Shootout, Infomercial for Pioneer, Commercial for Value Electronics, Kuros love fest, Trolling LCD event, Commercial for Kevin Miller, Questioning Kevin's skill, Finally seeing who's D-Nice, ...; you decided.

For the Copyrighted material, the Warner guy actually was unaware of we were doing the IP broadcast so he might have freaked out. As others had pointed out, the video and audio quality was so stupidly poor you probably can't tell the difference between Don Corleone and Tony Sopranos. But anyway, I don't want them to sue my a$$ off. So I had to do what they told me to.

Well, if you ask my opinion, I will tell you the event was very good. I am not a videophile. As a matter of fact, I don't know too much about TV anyway. But I will tell you I like the Elite 111 within that totally darkened environment. I also like it for that self-adjusting feature. I think that is awesome. I use my TV for watching anything, Fox5 news, Noggin with my kids, Jets and Giants football, Yankee baseball, Discovery HD and non-HD, PS3 gaming (I was playing GTA4 for 2 months everynight since it came out.), and not just film base 24p materials. I would still love to get the Elite 111 or 151. Called me crazy or banned my account on AVS, but I would have enjoyed more of the event if Robert was showing Aliens, I am legend, King Kong, Independance Day, Ironman, Batman Begins, Spiderman 1, 2, or 3, Armageddon, Saving Private Ryan, etc. than The GodFather. :D

Will I pay for an Elite 111 or 151 (assuming it is at the same level as the 111)? That's depend on the price. MSRP, no thank you. Can't afford it. Just like you know a Ferrari F430 is awesome. Seeing one make you drool but you won't sell your house to get one (at least for most people). I am glad the Samsung turn out pretty good especially because it automatically becomes a much cheaper alternative to the 151, the 58A650. I am a little disappointed by the the Panny because I was hoping the upcoming 58px800u will be the best Pio Elite alternative. Now, I highly doubted it. Sorry Panny lover. We will see. At the end, it is my money my choice and as a consumer, it is great to see all these CEs are trying so hard to get these quality products out.

If I finally break down to pony up for the Elite, one test I will definitately try to do if Robert or any retailers allow me. I will bring my PS3 and fire up various games: GTA4 (dark scene), Call of Duty 4, Metal Gear Solid 4, Resistance, ... etc. to test out the Elite before I will buy one (in both darken room as well as shop light environment). The risk (price) is just too high not to test what I will do to the TV.

BTW, anybody else doing shootout of any kind (Gun fight, A battle between military forces, marriage ended legal shootout, any high-scoring game, soccer or hockey match, LCD vs. PDP, LCD vs DLP vs PDP vs Tube vs whatever, B&W vs. color, ... etc.) and would like to IP Broadcast, please feel free to contact me.

P.S. If you STRONGLY feel about the event was a commercial for either Pioneer or Value Electronics, please e-mail them and let them know SoSo should deserve an Elite 151 or 111 as payment for providing the technology, time and effort to produce and broadcast their commercials. Thanks. :D:D:D

Hi, this is SoSo the IP video feed guy. I finally was able to get online and, Wow, the amount of comments and posts and arguments, was it heated or what! It took me 3 hours to catch up all the post on this thread and I notice my thread is locked and have not had a chance to read over there yet.

I would like to clarify something. On 7/17 (Thursday) morning, I noticed nobody was stepping up to broadcast the event. I said to myself, why not me? So I quickly put together something for the broadcast and called Robert to see if he is still interested in IP Broadcasting. And I showed him the testing of the SoSo channel. He liked it and kind of agreed to do it. He couldn't pay to much attention to me b/c he was too busy setting panels up. In the afternoon, I was able to finally secure all the necessary equipments (all of them are borrowed except for my Sony DV camcorder) and started my "interested in watching the event live?" thread. I got great responses from all of you and decided it should be worth doing it. And thank you for all the Soso channel testers for feedbacks and comments. I finally got an email from Robert and spoke with with at 1:00 am 7/18 (Friday) to confirm everyone was ok to appear live as well as all the material shown without any legal issues.

Then that was it. I arrived at 5:30 pm but has to find a longer 4 pins to 4 pins firewire cable for my camcorder so after the tripod, I can hand held the camcorder for the remaining. I was able to set things up at around 6:00 pm and if you watch the video, you knew what happen next. whatever you want to put it: Shootout, Infomercial for Pioneer, Commercial for Value Electronics, Kuros love fest, Trolling LCD event, Commercial for Kevin Miller, Questioning Kevin's skill, Finally seeing who's D-Nice, ...; you decided.

For the Copyrighted material, the Warner guy actually was unaware of we were doing the IP broadcast so he might have freaked out. As others had pointed out, the video and audio quality was so stupidly poor you probably can't tell the difference between Don Corleone and Tony Sopranos. But anyway, I don't want them to sue my a$$ off. So I had to do what they told me to.

Well, if you ask my opinion, I will tell you the event was very good. I am not a videophile. As a matter of fact, I don't know too much about TV anyway. But I will tell you I like the Elite 111 within that totally darkened environment. I also like it for that self-adjusting feature. I think that is awesome. I use my TV for watching anything, Fox5 news, Noggin with my kids, Jets and Giants football, Yankee baseball, Discovery HD and non-HD, PS3 gaming (I was playing GTA4 for 2 months everynight since it came out.), and not just film base 24p materials. I would still love to get the Elite 111 or 151. Called me crazy or banned my account on AVS, but I would have enjoyed more of the event if Robert was showing Aliens, I am legend, King Kong, Independance Day, Ironman, Batman Begins, Spiderman 1, 2, or 3, Armageddon, Saving Private Ryan, etc. than The GodFather. :D

Will I pay for an Elite 111 or 151 (assuming it is at the same level as the 111)? That's depend on the price. MSRP, no thank you. Can't afford it. Just like you know a Ferrari F430 is awesome. Seeing one make you drool but you won't sell your house to get one (at least for most people). I am glad the Samsung turn out pretty good especially because it automatically becomes a much cheaper alternative to the 151, the 58A650. I am a little disappointed by the the Panny because I was hoping the upcoming 58px800u will be the best Pio Elite alternative. Now, I highly doubted it. Sorry Panny lover. We will see. At the end, it is my money my choice and as a consumer, it is great to see all these CEs are trying so hard to get these quality products out.

If I finally break down to pony up for the Elite, one test I will definitately try to do if Robert or any retailers allow me. I will bring my PS3 and fire up various games: GTA4 (dark scene), Call of Duty 4, Metal Gear Solid 4, Resistance, ... etc. to test out the Elite before I will buy one (in both darken room as well as shop light environment). The risk (price) is just too high not to test what I will do to the TV.

BTW, anybody else doing shootout of any kind (Gun fight, A battle between military forces, marriage ended legal shootout, any high-scoring game, soccer or hockey match, LCD vs. PDP, LCD vs DLP vs PDP vs Tube vs whatever, B&W vs. color, ... etc.) and would like to IP Broadcast, please feel free to contact me.

P.S. If you STRONGLY feel about the event was a commercial for either Pioneer or Value Electronics, please e-mail them and let them know SoSo should deserve an Elite 151 or 111 as payment for providing the technology, time and effort to produce and broadcast their commercials. Thanks. :D:D:D

Thank you very much. I, for one, sincerely appreciate the time and effort you put into this.

In an hour at the local BB where LN52A650 or even 550 beats the pants off of any Pioneer. Oops, sorry, I forgot that the store has lights on.

So apparently you base everything on some critical viewing at your local BB. You, sir, are a troll in every sense of the word, here for the only purpose of disrupting things, having no regard for advancing AV Science or anything else. Apparently your viewing of the kuro in BB has made you an expert over countless individuals here that actually dedicate their time to help people. I cannot tell what is your motivation, that is something only you know... But some pretty misguided selfishness comes in to play, and it should be exposed.

Moving on to another subject you posted about: best buys are bright. You can take a camera in there and take a nice shot without even using a flash. Flourescent lighting is everywhere, and yes it gets in the nooks and crannys. If there was a somewhat reasonably darkened room (magnolia) in your BB, I guarantee you did not go in there, maybe tweak some settings and see what the kuro was capable of. You may try to say you did, but everyone would know that to be a lie.

I know its fun to bold some of my paraphrasing but it doesn't actually mean anything. You clearly stated that BB is your environment that you evaluated the kuro. Good for you. Of course I and everyone else in this forum should and will take the professional reviewers and calibrators opinion over yours. So, again, why exactly are you here? Are you helping anyone except your own, strange agenda? Please let us all know.

"Designed to perform" and perform "accurately" are two different things my friend.

Are you saying that the kuros perform accurately under low or no light condidtions?

When you understand the physics of what makes up a good picture, give us a call. You obviously don't or you wouldn't have said what you just did nor insinuate this was the rationale for the 'bias'. Oh yeah, and because YOU say it wasn't an objective test doesn't make it so. If you were there you would have had perhaps a bit more credibility, but you weren't. So instead you take cheap shots armed with bullets of ignorance.

Have a nice day.

Well, thou dost protest too much. Perhaps you can enlighten me in either scientific or laymans terms the physics of a good picture. Other than that I have no issues with you being a Kuro fanboy!

Regarding BB I can say not all are created equally. I live within 25mi. of 6 so I have seen a few. Some do have light controlled AV viewing rooms that you can adjusts the lights to nearly pitch black (some light enters around the doorway) with leather sofa's etc. and some BB/Magnolia employees are willing to entertain people's interest in playing with the menu's and settings. Granted I greatly avoid at all cost even entering one, I'm just saying there is an ability to perform objective viewing if you are in the right one with the right panels in the viewing rooms.

Regarding BB I can say not all are created equally. I live within 25mi. of 6 so I have seen a few. Some do have light controlled AV viewing rooms that you can adjusts the lights to nearly pitch black (some light enters around the doorway) with leather sofa's etc. and some BB/Magnolia employees are willing to entertain people's interest in playing with the menu's and settings. Granted I greatly avoid at all cost even entering one, I'm just saying there is an ability to perform objective viewing if you are in the right one with the right panels in the viewing rooms.

True. But in the case of some certain people on here, this doesn't even matter. That was my main point. They merely state whatever works best for them at that moment in an effort to please their unusual desires to bash a certain display, hoping people will mistake them as an expert. Helping people does not come in to play here. Fortunately the forum has an abundance of useful people who spend many hours answering questions to the best of their ability to balance this out.

But, alas, what can be done about those few people with their obnoxious agenda? Does exposure of these things do anything to stop it? Probably not, so I think I am really wasting my breath here.

Well it was nice to get together with other AVS members and enjoy our hobby as obsessive as we may be.
I think a special thanks should go out to Robert for taking the time out to put an event like this together. For those attending tomorrow check out the back room.
Thanks SoSo for putting together the internet stream, sorry about the valuee feed dropping out half way but in an attempt to elevate the laptop and camera. The power plug had worked loose and the battery ran down my bad (sorry)

Now down to buisness.

As far as black level alone goes the Pio 111 is the darkest followed by the Pio 5010 and than the panasonic. Compared to these three the samsung, LG and Toshiba do not come close. What did the extra level of black add? Well when they showed the BluRay run of the God Father there were low light scenes were you could make out more detail on the textured wall paper in the background.

We all know that black level is not the only value to measure a panel but it does add depth to the color and overall picture. Color decoder differences were also noticed. The panasonic and the Pio 111 were perceived to be the most accurate. This was mostly noticable on flesh tones. The Pio 5010 had a noticable red tint at times and the samsung seemed to oversaturate fleshtones as well as have this red tint at times on flesh tones.

If you are noticing I really have not mentioned the LG or Toshiba the reasons are the Toshiba looked like a flashlight in a dark room and the LG had the lightest blacks of the remaining 5.

I did have a good observation about the Toshiba. When the room lights were turned up all the way (actually brighter than a BB store) the Toshiba seemed to have better blacks and slightly better whites than the other 5. That is about the only advantage the Toshiba had, IMO if your media room is that bright you should be reported to the national energy commission.

As soon as the lights were dimmed to normal levels all panels started to look close except for the color decoder differences mentioned above. When the lights went out then the black level winners showed their stuff.

Another observation was the ability to process video smoothly. The ones that seemed to do the best were the pio's followed by the panasonic then the samsung. As much as I tried to pay attention to the LG I just naturally kept going back to the Pio's Panny and sammy.

After the main event was over and the overhead lights were turned up a little, I started to see the lights effect on the panel material. The panasonic lightened the most very similar to how some old CRT's looked if off and strong light was shining on the screen. The Pio's were acceptably dark when black was shown. The samsung and LG were between the Pio and Panny. Again this is the only strong point of the toshiba.

So if was to be opening up my wallet and parting with my hard earned dollars I would Pick the Pio 111 first, The panasonic second (based on color decoder accuracy not black level) and then the Pio 5010.

Those of you going saturday have a great time.:D:D

Thank you so much for this detailed write up. That is exactly what I have been looking for. On observation of all the various factors for the sets, not just black level.

Perhaps but I believe everyone will watch a panel at one time or another with daylight or other ambient lighting. In fact most everyone will watch TV in that mode.
Therefore unlike a theater, viewing with ambient lighting is just as important if not more so.

+1. Absolutely true. Brightness in normal daytime viewing is very important for most people. We watch TV during the day, have football game day parties and don't have a dedicated dark home theater room. In fact, I would be willing to bet that only about 10% (at most) of the population has such a room. Being able to evaluate a TVs ability to deliver a good viewing experience in a moderately bright room, evaluate reflections and viewing angle are all critical parts of determing the right set. For those who only watch in a dark room, then black level will dominate for them. But for the majority of viewers, black level is important, but not nearly the end all or be all.

After the main event was over and the overhead lights were turned up a little, I started to see the lights effect on the panel material. The panasonic lightened the most very similar to how some old CRT's looked if off and strong light was shining on the screen. The Pio's were acceptably dark when black was shown. The samsung and LG were between the Pio and Panny. Again this is the only strong point of the toshiba.
.

This seems a bit odd to me. The fact that the Panasonic "lightend up" so much. Someone else also mentioned the Panny seeming washed out compared to the other sets. Since this is very different from reviews I have read about the Panny (from HDGuru and from CNet), it leads me to believe that the Panny was either not calibrated properly, OR, it had some ambient light sensor setting that was mistakenly turned on.

I can't help but think there are a lot of silent folks who own one TV or another
out there (and are enjoying it) are wondering why so many ignorant folks are
out there trying to convince people to adopt their ideals. Declarations are made
as if factual (often based on past products) and discussions end up spiraling
into nonsense arguments between people who appear to ignore the fact that
there are varying differences in taste out there. Fans always try to argue for
their side with total disregard of these differences.

In any case, we should be here to share OUR personal view, not subject it upon
others as if they will see things the same way. That's why I often use the term
IMHO since, well, it's my opinion that I'm SHARING... not FORCING upon folks. To
me, folks who hammer the same crap OVER and OVER again are FORCING their
opinion on others... and it's wrong.

Of course, all of the above is IMHO. :)

+1. Absolutely true. Brightness in normal daytime viewing is very important for most people. We watch TV during the day, have football game day parties and don't have a dedicated dark home theater room. In fact, I would be willing to bet that only about 10% (at most) of the population has such a room. Being able to evaluate a TVs ability to deliver a good viewing experience in a moderately bright room, evaluate reflections and viewing angle are all critical parts of determing the right set. For those who only watch in a dark room, then black level will dominate for them. But for the majority of viewers, black level is important, but not nearly the end all or be all.

Well put.

Someday, I suspect they'll figure out a way of darkening that screen so that you'll get most the benefit of the deep blacks in a well lit room.

Really? So is everyone facing each panel in the optimal viewing angle or is that off?

Yeah, you have a point here. With LCDs' very narrow sweet spot compared to the plasmas, LCD was definitely at a disadvantage.

News flash!: Pioneer is better than Samsung! A real shocker! This shootout made no sense as the outcome was known in advance.

Other than a reconfirmation of what the members of the church of Kuro already know or believe, it produced few converts. A guy who makes sixty, if he is that lucky, wants to know only one thing: what is the best all-around, all-weather, TV set he can afford and his family can use. Telling him that the best caviar is Russian and the best perfume is French is as pointless as the purpose and the outcome of this self-congratulatory exhibition. So instead of staging this lopsided infomercial, why don't you compare the best of the LCDs with the best of plasma under these conditions: sunny day, cloudy day, night with moderate light and a cave. Then ask one thousand normal people which one set would they take home as a gift and, as a second question, as a purchase.

I agree. The Kuros are not going to be the choice for those that can't afford them or don't want to spend that kind of money. However, what's that got to do with which plasma produces the superior picture?

I'd love to hear from a few more folks that were at the event and their opinions of the various sets.

In your opinion which displays provided the most accurate looking picture taking into account skin tones and landscape greens in addition to the blacks?

Did any of the displays look washed out under the dark lighting conditions?

I think there were two Pioneers because the object was to show the 9G against an 8G set because the 8G sets were last year's champions in the press. If I remember right, the original intention was to use an 8G Elite but one wasn't available.

As for all the other issues raised over this discussion. I think some good points have been raised on both sides. I think Tom Huffman has raised an issue which is quite valid. Was this a 100 percent fair comparison if one or more of the sets was not as well calibrated as it could be? I think that is a fair criticism but I don't think it implies any sort of conspiracy was afoot. I wonder if any of the sets was as well calibrated as it could be. How much time was really available to calibrate each set? It can take quite some time to get everything as closely to perfect as possible based on the calibration sessions I have seen. I doubt if each of these sets got extended calibration time. They were certainly all probably better than just the out of the box settings.

By the way, I think the posted spreadsheet data is very misleading because it seems to imply that only the Pioneer sets were calibrated because before and after numbers are only shown for the Pioneers. I think that the numbers shown for all the other sets are the post-calibration numbers but would like someone to confirm this, if possible

On the other hand, I think the criticisms from people about not comparing the sets in room light is specious. It was quite clear in the up-front presentation that the focus was on using the sets to watch movies. It was not about watching sitcoms or sports or whatever. It was oriented toward movie watchers. I think most people can accept that movies are best watched in a dark environment where black levels and other things can be optimized. For a lot of us this is what we want in a TV: the optimum movie viewing experience. If you want something else then look for sets that optimize those experiences.

I also think that the issues of cost/value don't count either. The demonstration was meant to compare top of the line or near top of the line sets without considering price. Whether you believe that some sets are overpriced for their performance or not is irrelevant in something like this. People can make their own decisions about whether they feel that superior performance justifies a higher price or whether nearly-as-good performance at a lower price trumps the higher performance. Those considerations don't change the fact that one product may outperform another.

Finally, I don't think anyone should be surprised that there were commercial aspects to this presentation. Robert is a businessman and the publicity and opportunity to get a bunch of TV lovers (and prospective customers) into his store is certainly at least a plus to him. I do have to praise him for being willing to also show products that he probably doesn't sell and going to the trouble (and probably expense) to have the sets calibrated. I also think it made sense from a business perspective to have Pioneer pick up some of the expenses of the session though it might not have been the best choice from a perception perspective.

It is probably impossible to ever do one of these things that would be 100 percent fair and thorough. It would take too much time and cost too much. There would also be the problem of acquiring all the sets that people would like to see compared. There are probably at least 25 sets (possibly a good deal more) that would need to be included to cover all the ones that people think ought to be matched. If your favorite wasn't there, well maybe next time.

Finally, do I think that these kinds of "shootouts" necessarily indicate the superiority of one set over another. No. Because all the elements that would guarantee total fairness were not there and couldn't be. I do think that such sessions are indicative of which set probably are better than some others. I think they can reveal obvious flaws in sets and can indicate where more diligent viewing and research may be called for.

Well I went today and I am far from a videophile, but I do like to have the best of things. My untrained eyes told me that the Elite was the best, but what the shootout showed me that most people are not talking about is how great the other sets are. Im my opinion the 5010 was extremely good but to my surprise the Samsung PQ looked very good if not up at the top. I was very impressed with the A650 watching the Blue Ray of the Godfather as well as some of the other clips that were shown. The test patterns did show the Pioneers being better, but in the "real world" viewings of actual videos the differences really became so minute that buying any one of these displays you would not be unhappy. I do own a 6010 and at one point saw myself looking at the 5010 too much, wanting to see how the others looked. Again they were all incredible displays that looked almost perfect, but the Elite was noticably better than the rest. Do I want to run out and replace my 6010 with a 111/151, no. I my opinion it wasn't worth the extra money, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the best.

Thanks for your on-site comments MadMatt. It's nice to read some calm insight and opinion. I am also pleased to read that you are the third person who attended the event who has stated that he very much liked the 650. As I had written before, I had always believed that the Elite would win this competition. But, many of us want to read some about the other displays because we either can't afford or are unwilling to spend (for good reasons) the extra money for 'the best in show'. Your comments are of real value to us 'second tier' buyers. :)

This seems a bit odd to me. The fact that the Panasonic "lightend up" so much. Someone else also mentioned the Panny seeming washed out compared to the other sets. Since this is very different from reviews I have read about the Panny (from HDGuru and from CNet), it leads me to believe that the Panny was either not calibrated properly, OR, it had some ambient light sensor setting that was mistakenly turned on.

No, this has nothing to do with calibration, sensors, or this event. I have seen both the 800 and the 850 in several stores with settings that are most likely out of the box. In more upscale retail places the picture looks really good because the ambient lighting is low. I have asked if these have been calibrated and the answers have always been no. However, in the BM stores where lighting is brighter the 800 (I expect the 850 too) does not do well and looks washed out. So, I am not surprised by the comment from an event attendee that 'when the lights went on the Panasonic looked washed out'. Unfortunately, the PQ does look washed out in medium to bright ambient light on these units compared to others. I would say for the most part these panels would work extremely well in a controlled environment but less so (again, compared to others) as the ambient light rises.

SoSo, thanks again for your hard work, it was very much appreciated.

SoSo, thanks again for your hard work, it was very much appreciated.


Same here. Thank you did a great job!

Different people have different need and choice and taste. It's like saying my Ford F150 performs better than your Ferrari F430 when I am towing my trailer. Or my Honda Odyssey performs better than both your F150 and F430 when I am hauling 8 people. Some people need to tow trailer, some people need to haul 8 people, some need to go fast. Again your money, your choice.

However, questioning Kevin Miller's reputation is a rather strong accusation. "KM not doing his homework"; "KM took the attitude of why bother because the outcome was already set"; "KM improperly calibrated the Panny"; ... etc. I am not here to defend KM (Friday was the first and only time I met and talked to KM). I couldn't and wouldn't. But in essence, some people here are accusing his expertise, integrity, work ethics, knowledge, and reputation. To me, that's some STRONG accusation.

Just my 2 cents.

To all of you watched the broadcast, I hope you enjoyed it as much as I produced and broadcasted it. You are very welcome and I am just trying to contribute as much as I could to the forum. Thank You for tuning in. :)

...
However, questioning Kevin Miller's reputation is a rather strong accusation. "KM not doing his homework"; "KM took the attitude of why bother because the outcome was already set"; "KM improperly calibrated the Panny"; ... etc. I am not here to defend KM (Friday was the first and only time I met and talked to KM). I couldn't and wouldn't. But in essence, some people here are accusing his expertise, integrity, work ethics, knowledge, and reputation. To me, that's some STRONG accusation.

Just my 2 cents.

From what I have read the results pretty much match what I observe in the field. I see no reason to blame Kevin for the fact that Pioneer is making the best looking flat panel products today.

From what I have read the results pretty much match what I observe in the field. I see no reason to blame Kevin for the fact that Pioneer is making the best looking flat panel products today.

I guess it is fair to say then that you'd rate the 111 as 'best in show'. However Jeff, given your observations and hands on experience as an expert in the field, in brief, how would you rate the remaining panels from this event? Other ISF Calibrators have contributed their post event comments, I would think that your opinion as a regular contributor to this forum would be valued and respected.

Thank you so much for this detailed write up. That is exactly what I have been looking for. On observation of all the various factors for the sets, not just black level.

You are welcome

+1. Absolutely true. Brightness in normal daytime viewing is very important for most people. We watch TV during the day, have football game day parties and don't have a dedicated dark home theater room. In fact, I would be willing to bet that only about 10% (at most) of the population has such a room. Being able to evaluate a TVs ability to deliver a good viewing experience in a moderately bright room, evaluate reflections and viewing angle are all critical parts of determing the right set. For those who only watch in a dark room, then black level will dominate for them. But for the majority of viewers, black level is important, but not nearly the end all or be all.

I have been using the Pio 150 for a year now. It is placed in a family room that has 2 windows to the right that are exposed to morning sun and a set of sliding gals doors at the back of the room that get afternoon sun. At no time do I find the set un watchable.

This seems a bit odd to me. The fact that the Panasonic "lightend up" so much. Someone else also mentioned the Panny seeming washed out compared to the other sets. Since this is very different from reviews I have read about the Panny (from HDGuru and from CNet), it leads me to believe that the Panny was either not calibrated properly, OR, it had some ambient light sensor setting that was mistakenly turned on.

I noticed at the end of friday night when they were requested to put the displays in their out of the box mode that the Panisonic looked flat and dull. When they were in their calibrated settings the Panisonic looked great. Actually as mentioned in my review of friday night on real world material I put the panasonic ahead of the 5010 because of the color accuracy. Maybe the panasonic never made it back to the calibrated state.

I guess it is fair to say then that you'd rate the 111 as 'best in show'. However Jeff, given your observations and hands on experience as an expert in the field, in brief, how would you rate the remaining panels from this event? Other ISF Calibrators have contributed their post event comments, I would think that your opinion as a regular contributor to this forum would be valued and respected.

Where is a list showing the exact model numbers of all the displays used in this test?

Where is a list showing the exact model numbers of all the displays used in this test?

Here they are:

LG 50PG60
Panasonic TH50PZ800
Pioneer Pro 111P
Pioneer PDP5010
Toshiba 52XF550
Samsung PN50A650

Any references to Best Buy or CC I have made were meant to convey the following message: This is where normal people shop and the real shootouts take place every day. You walk in, look and pick the set you like best. Nobody, except the fanatics, shops on the basis of .002 vs. .008. with a weekly paycheck to pay for the difference.

I also reject and resent the elitist attitude on the part of the "videophiles", whatever that means, that there is something inherently wrong with the light, the people and the feed at these stores. A typical store, deliberately or by accident, is more representative of what the average buyer will have at home than the dungeons and caves, sorry, home theatres, of the connoisseurs. And the feed is just fine, too. I asked and got a walking tour how the whole network is set up. I suggest you, the B&M bashers, do the same thing and then we will talk. While there, measure the light intensity in the TV wall area. Then go home and do the same.

I was there yesterday as well and thought it was a great event and put on with the best of intentions. Robert and Kevin are to be commended for their efforts. I was also great to put a face on the many AVS posters who were there. My only quibble would be that Kevin probably did not have enough time to get all of the sets looking their very best but he did an excellent job in the time that he had alotted. That is a lot of sets to calibrate in a very short period of time. Judging from the results I saw, it appeared that all of the sets were in fact put on a level playing field which is all that we really could have expected. It was also great to actually meet and chat with Robert Harris and the view the clip of the restored Godfather which looked fantastic. Fans of the film will be thrilled with the results as it totally blew away the DVD edition. Robert BTW is not from Warners. He was restoring the film for Paramount. My impressions? The Elite was the clear winner due to is improved black level. The Panny was second due to its very accurate color. Its black level performance was a clear step down from both Pioneers. While the 5010 had better blacks, its color performance was not acceptable, way too red. The rest were not in the ballpark IMHO. I was also a little surprised by the performance of the Panny which simply lacked the clarity of both Pioneers. I have seen Panny's and own and industrial 50" which had much better clarity. THis shoot out confirmed waht I have seen in the field also and that it if you have the money, get the Elite. If not, I would go for the Panny industrial displays. Was there too much of a push for the Pioneer at the shootout? Yes but is was a Pioneer sponsored event after all and I think were were all able to ignore that fact. I know it didn't bother me in the least. I know without question that Robert honestly is convinced that the Elite is the best product out there. And guess what, it is, albeit a bit too pricey. I enjoyed my trip to Scarsdale and will take a trip back up again next year. Hopefully, Robert will do this again and not take the criticisms here too personally. A the ole saying goes Robert, no good deed goes unpunished!

Here they are:

LG 50PG60
Panasonic TH50PZ800
Pioneer Pro 111P
Pioneer PDP5010
Toshiba 52XF550
Samsung PN50A650

I have only worked on the two Pioneers and the Toshiba at this point. Between those I would rate them in the following order of quality Pioneer Elite 111, Pioneer 5010, Toshiba LCD. The Toshiba LCD is so poor I will not work on another.

I have only worked on the two Pioneers and the Toshiba at this point. Between those I would rate them in the following order of quality Pioneer Elite 111, Pioneer 5010, Toshiba LCD. The Toshiba LCD is so poor I will not work on another.

umr, you did have some good things to say about the Samsung A650/750 LCD, correct?

How would you compare that to the Toshiba?

I think all Tom is getting at is that the Samsung could have performed better had its Color controls been calibrated to their fullest potential. I.e., in reading the following comments:

The Samsung's colors were a little too much during the darker scenes, but really nice during the lighter ones.

The Samsung had a red push, and the whites on the 5010 were unnatural, yes, but at home, I doubt I'd ever be able to notice.

Not sure if there were others, it is clear that the CMS wasn't used to its potential. The Samsung does have red push, however, this can easily be eliminated with proper calibration. Tom has calibrated the set, as has Maxdb, and Doug Blackburn (see his revivew of the A550 in issue 133 of Widescreen Review in which he praises the A550's ability to get to reference primary and secondary colors after calibration).

So from a color perspective it could have performed better. Having said that, it would not have improved the set's black levels. Looking at the pictures posted, the black levels are pretty much similar to what I see with my A550.

Wish I could have made it, if for nothing else to speak to other "HT geeks" and not have people (like my wife) eye's glaze over when I discuss Home Theater!!

+1. Absolutely true. Brightness in normal daytime viewing is very important for most people. We watch TV during the day, have football game day parties and don't have a dedicated dark home theater room. In fact, I would be willing to bet that only about 10% (at most) of the population has such a room. Being able to evaluate a TVs ability to deliver a good viewing experience in a moderately bright room, evaluate reflections and viewing angle are all critical parts of determing the right set. For those who only watch in a dark room, then black level will dominate for them. But for the majority of viewers, black level is important, but not nearly the end all or be all.

Well said. Thank you!


bob

umr, you did have some good things to say about the Samsung A650/750 LCD, correct?

How would you compare that to the Toshiba?

I really like the colors of the new Samsung LCD sets. They are close to what is available on the Pioneer Elite series. The Toshiba on the other hand is horrible.

Here is a link to my comments and measurements for the A650 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13892707&postcount=9114.

There is no point talking to a fanatic. It's like arguing with a Jehovah's Witness about the end of days.

I agree, you are fanatical in your attempts to dismiss this fine event and that's why I find discussing things with you so difficult. You weren't there, but you know all the answers. You weren't there, but you know how the panels were calibrated and what the 'real mission' was. I will suggest Tom it is you that is fanatical in your attempts to dismiss what was a fair shootout. Your panel didn't win, sorry.

I have made two substantive claims: the event was falsely advertised and the competing displays were not properly calibrated. I know that for a fact with respect to the Samsung.

You bring the art of 'word twisting' to a new level. First you say the 'competing displays were not properly calibrated', but then you narrow this to 'knowing this for a fact' ONLY regarding the Samsung. So which is it Tom, ALL the 'competing' displays or just the Samsung? I myself will give Kevin Miller the benefit of the doubt since I know him, trust him, have had prior excellent experience with his services on a notoriously difficult display to ISF (for which he did a fine job). He was quite adamant about the accuracy of his calibrations during the shootout. Could he have made a mistake adjusting this many sets in a very short period of time? Of course that's possible. But an error would have been just as likely for any of the sets, not just one. Kevin had far more to lose than gain by not doing his job properly. On the other hand, I don't know you from a hole in the wall nor do I know your motivations, but you sure as hell seem to be on some kind of mission.

As far as I can tell you don't dispute either of these claims, so lacking anything of substance to say you resort to sarcasm and silly name-calling. I guess I am "misguided" because I just haven't seen the TRUTH, and I am a "whiner" because I have written something that irritates you. I lack "integrity" because--now what's the reason?--I criticize the event publicly rather than privately to KM. So do all comments on the forum about this event lack integrity, or just the ones you don't like? Just what are the criteria here? To be clear, my intent in mentioning this was not to improve KM's knowledge of Samsung products. He is perfectly capable of doing that on his own. My comments were aimed at the audience, some of whom (not you, of course) were actually interested in learning something about all of the displays.

I do dispute your claims Tom and I was there to learn about and compare the displays. Most people (like myself) that were there, were primarily there to learn about the new Pioneers...I don't think that was any secret. Virtually every A/V publication has come to the same conclusions, the Kuros are the best displays. If you are truly a videophile, you'd have to be living in a cave not to know that. The room was composed primarily of videophiles, and so it would be quite logical to assume the primary interest was in the Pioneers! So yes, most (not all) were primarily interested in Kuros. It was for THAT reason that Robert had an 8th gen to compare to the 9th gen and didn't have room or time to set up the 5020. He actually OFFERED to set it up after the event was over, but I left after the main session was over. I have no idea if this was done or not, so there was nothing conspiratorial about this at all. Not one bit. But Tom, these are FACTS and you really don't seem to want to be confused by facts. So drone on if you like, make as many false and misleading assumptions as you like, you've got that down to an art form.

I will cease to respond to your posts since you have no desire to learn the truth...that's simply not on your agenda. Your agenda is very simple, denegrate the thrust of this fine effort on Robert's part. You see Tom, in actuality it is YOU that is fanatical. You dismiss all the comments from all the attendees because somehow YOU know better. You're not interested in the truth at all, your simply interested in pushing your agenda. I learned a long time ago there's no point discussing things with people who 'know better', who 'think' they know everything.

As I said before, when YOU put on your own shootout, then you'll have an opportunity to conduct it in a 'fair' (as you see it) manner. We'll wait for that even Tom. I suspect we'll be waiting a very very long time. Bye bye Tom.

[/QUOTE]

Your logic is faulty Ken.
Movie theaters use a projection system which require a dark environment.
Flat panel displays like plasmas and LCD are designed to perform under various lighting conditions, including sunlight. A movie theater projection system would obviously fail there.
Just because a Kuro wont do as well under ambient lightning doesn't mean others can't achieve very good results in that environment.

But never to the level of a quality set in a light controlled/dim/dark enviroment.

+1. Absolutely true. Brightness in normal daytime viewing is very important for most people. We watch TV during the day, have football game day parties and don't have a dedicated dark home theater room. In fact, I would be willing to bet that only about 10% (at most) of the population has such a room. Being able to evaluate a TVs ability to deliver a good viewing experience in a moderately bright room, evaluate reflections and viewing angle are all critical parts of determing the right set. For those who only watch in a dark room, then black level will dominate for them. But for the majority of viewers, black level is important, but not nearly the end all or be all.

Well, my living room has floor to ceiling windows, a skylight and a front door that is half glass.
My Kuro performs very well on Sundays watching my Birds.
It is not washed out. Are the black levels as dark as in a dim room, no, but the color accuracy, motion handling and good refective screen make for a uniform and fairly sturated image in the harshest conditions.
I think many who say the Kuro can't do this have 'NEVER' actually owned one.

If you want an overly bright daytimne image, get an lcd.

+1

I think it is sad that so many are complaining and acting like this.
It looks like this shootout has attracted the regular Trolls. Which is a shame.

Robert put alot of work into this event and did a great job and I amoung others, thank him.
Robert also sent D-Nice the PDP-6020FD and PRO-111FD at his own expense so all of us AVS Kuro owners would have our reference settings and get an honest review.
And D-Nice Volunteers his own time to give all of us AVS'ers the reviews and reference settings.

I think it is a shame that instead of many thanks and posts of appreciation that they should be getting, Robert and D-nice will be greeted by childish posts and criticizing when they log on to AVS to see how everyone liked the event.

So from Myself and I am sure some others, Thanks Guys for all you do and have done in the Past. You guys are a true asset to this Forum! Your work and help is appreciated by many.


Boy, aint that the truth Chad! The comments, insinuations and outright lies that the trolls have brought to this thread have brought AVS to a new low. Robert did one of the finest things that I've seen ANY retailer ever do in the A/V world and this is the thanks he gets.

I wouldn't blame him in the least if he never did it again. I know Robert and I know he takes these jackass comments to heart. Hell, it wasn't even my shootout and you can say how upset I get.

If this isn't a classic example of "No good deed goes unpunished", then I don't know what is.

With black levels - the difference between .002 fl and .009 fl is the same kind of difference between 720p and 1080p - if its something you notice and important to you - great. But we're talking about subtle differences.

I wouldn't call that difference minimal.
.004 to .003 is minimal.

And why is it wrong to have a list of what parameters makes for great PQ?

This was a completely fair event as far as comparing these sets goes. If you got the dough then buy a Kuro Elite no question. No brainer. If you want to contribute to your IRA, child's college fund, down payment on a car then get one of the other sets. That is if you wan't to settle. ;)

I actually find anyone who has more than 6 or 7 posts in this thread to be fanatical. The way you guys argue back and forth would make someone think they insulted your wife. Everyone has different uses for the sets they buy.

Are you saying that the jurors perform accurately under low or no light conditions?

I am saying that ANY display can only perform accurately under low or no light conditions. If you have an impeccably adjusted display that's capable of rendering a 100% accurate image, what good does that do you if you can't see any shadow detail due to light streaming in from windows or bright indoor lighting? This is why anyone interested in critical viewing will only do so in a dim to dark environment.

+1. Absolutely true. Brightness in normal daytime viewing is very important for most people. We watch TV during the day, have football game day parties and don't have a dedicated dark home theater room. In fact, I would be willing to bet that only about 10% (at most) of the population has such a room. Being able to evaluate a TVs ability to deliver a good viewing experience in a moderately bright room, evaluate reflections and viewing angle are all critical parts of determine the right set. For those who only watch in a dark room, then black level will dominate for them. But for the majority of viewers, black level is important, but not nearly the end all or be all.

I'm not sure that the 'majority' of AVS viewers will view in bright light. I think on AVS (a hobbyist website), it's just as logical to assume that most will view in dim to dark conditions. I don't think the average AVS visitor is your average Costco buyer. Now this doesn't say that there are times we all will be viewing in brighter conditions, but it does say that the majority of AVS'rs, when sitting down to watch Aliens, will turn the lights out. Watching the Today Show? Who cares, watch it with lights on or off.

So I think for most AVS visitors, black levels are more important than how bright the TV can go. Once a set is Isled, it doesn't make any difference how bright the TV can go.

But for those who have no light control at all, we have long advised on AVS that an LCD might be best. That's no secret.

There is a reason movie theaters are nearly pitch black.

I have been using the Pio 150 for a year now. It is placed in a family room that has 2 windows to the right that are exposed to morning sun and a set of sliding gals doors at the back of the room that get afternoon sun. At no time do I find the set un watchable.




Eddie, any thoughts of bumping up to the 151? :)

There is a reason movie theaters are nearly pitch black.

I have always wondered if the projectors at the movie theaters are calibrated in any way? Is there a standard by which they must all abide?

There is a reason movie theaters are nearly pitch black.

Yup. It's called white screen.

Robert BTW is not from Warners. He was restoring the film for Paramount.

My bad, thanks for correcting me J. Sorry Robert! :o

I actually find anyone who has more than 6 or 7 posts in this thread to be fanatical. The way you guys argue back and forth would make someone think they insulted your wife.

Nah, we wouldn't get this upset if they insulted our wives! :D

Nah, we wouldn't get this upset if they insulted our wives! :D


I think I got two or three more posts till I consider myself a fanatic.:)

I was a little surprised that many rated the 650 over the 800. Others had it reversed. Seems maybe it just what picture preference one keyed on. I would like to hear some more comments on these two units.

Well, yesterday I learned that AVSers don’t just play a group of cool, generous folks who gather to learn and share information on the internet. They really are just that. A giant thank you to Robert and Wendy. Thank you for being such generous and gracious hosts and giving me an opportunity to make a major leap in my AV learning. It was a really a terrific day.

First, let me say that I have not had time to read this thread yet. If most of this is redundant, I’m sorry. But if I don’t post now, I won’t be able to post for a couple of days. So I thought I’d throw some quick impressions in.

When I arrived thirty or forty minutes before the event, the room was already filled with people talking, eating, and milling around looking at the six plasmas playing a demo loop. I think it was from the Digital Video Essentials disc – but I’m not sure. I appreciated having an opportunity to view the TVs in full light. In full light, all six looked quite good. The biggest surprise to me at that point was that there wasn’t a set there that I wouldn’t be thrilled to own. I wasn’t sure whether I was more excited to meet all these AVSers or to finally get to see Tvs set up well in a really good environment. I kept bouncing back and forth between the people and the TVs. To my eyes, the two Pioneers provided the most pleasing image. Both the 111 and 5010 provided a sharp and very smooth picture and whenever I’d turn from a person back to the wall of Tvs, these were the two that kept drawing me. But like I said, all 6 looked incredible – and I’d be thrilled to own any of them.

Then the program started. Robert welcomed us and introduced the event. It’s hard not to be affected by his infectious enthusiasm for all things AV. He talked about his background as a television broadcast engineer and how pleased he was to have Kevin Miller as a part of the day. He also admitted his own Pioneer bias, which I thought was honest and impressive. I have no problem with someone who sells products having one they favor. Having it in the open is helpful to me. Kevin talked about ISF calibration, how he had spent twelve hours trying to put these TVs on the most level playing field he’s capable of doing in that amount of time. He talked about the most important factors in making a good picture:
1. Contrast ratio
2. Color saturation
3. Color Accuracy
4. Resolution
He talked about each of these. I’ll leave that report to the more technically proficient among the attendees. At some point in his talk, the lights were turned off. That was when the differences between the panels emerged big time!! Of course, the LCD couldn’t compete in that circumstance. To be fair, I was viewing it off axis. So I’m sure it’s better than it looked to me. But even when someone tipped it toward me, it just wasn’t in the same league as the other sets. As soon as the lights dimmed, the LG also looked much, much worse. I can’t describe why. But the picture felt much less smooth and more blocky than the others. When the lights were out, the 111 leapt out of the bunch. I really did think it was another class of television. I ended up liking the Panasonic (PZ800 in THX mode) less than I thought I would. The picture looked kind of washed out to me. I ended up liking the Samsung (A650) more than I thought I would. This was definitely my second choice after Pioneer. I could tell the colors were a bit oversaturated, but it was a pleasing picture to me none the less.

Next up was Robert Harris, who had brought a BluRay of the soon to be released restoration of The Godfather. The restoration was a work of art. It was very, very cool to get to see this. Again, watching the movie, I had to keep reminding myself to compare the televisions and keep my eyes moving. I kept forgetting that’s what I was doing, and I’d find myself just watching the 111. In the dark scenes, there were details in the 111 that no other TV got. There was a scene where on the 111, I could see all of Marlon Brando’s face, but on the Samsung right above it, it looked like the bottom half of his face was lost in deep shadow. When I checked the other sets, none of them had any detail in the bottom half of his face. Now, if I had no point of comparison, I would have loved the Samsung picture. But I don’t think it’s what the director intended. Bob Harris talked about how the studio loves the Pioneers because it’s the set that lets them see the picture as its intended.

There was a brief chance for Q & A. Some questions were asked of D-Nice. Some of the Pioneer executives. Some of Kevin Miller. Meeting and getting to thank D-Nice personally was one of the highlights of the day. Thanks again, D. There are many who when they enter a hobby, enter it obsessively. But few who decide to share everything they learn with everyone they can. You are an incredible resource!!!

One small regret I had was that in Robert and Kevin’s opening comments, they kept referring to things that had been said on AVS about this being a Pioneer ad. I was sorry they felt the need to defend themselves. And curious how they would have introduced the event if they hadn’t felt attacked. It was a small thing, but I noticed it.

After the event, 12 of us trundled up the Road to luch at the Garth Road Inn. I really enjoyed getting to shmooze with fellow AVSers – talk AV, talk politics, just talk. That was another highlight of the day for me.

Before jumping on the train, I went back to the store with most of the AVS gang. I asked Robert if he could show us the sets on an SD channel. He did. To my eyes, none looked great. Only Pioneer looked at all good. But not great. Some people settled to watching baseball on all 6. I knew I should use that as further opportunity to compare in a lights on situation – but I hate baseball (sorry) and just couldn’t do it. So I went in the back room and watched Kevin calibrating the Kuro projector. That was beeeeeaaaaaautiful. To watch a rocket take off on a giant screen with big sound was heart stopping. (Don’t’ worry. It started again. I’m still here.)

By the end of the day, my own personal ranking of the 6 Tvs was this:
1. Pioneer Elite 111
2. Pioneer 5010
3. Samsung A650
4. Panasonic PZ800
5. LG PG60
6. Toshiba LCD

All in all, it was a wonderful day – filled with good food, good people, lots of learning, and good TV! Thank you Robert and Wendy for making it happen. You are gems and I am so glad that I have gotten to know you in my search for AV nirvana. Thank you, Kevin Miller and Robert Harris and of course D-Nice. And thank you to all the great AVSers who shared the day.

Was there a Day 2 of the shootout? I haven't seen a report from anyone that attended, if there was.

Eddie, any thoughts of bumping up to the 151? :)

Plenty of thoughts but I think I will wait it out another year or 2.

One: for respect of the finance committees (Wife's) patience with my obsession.

Two: Lack of a room to put another 60" display

Three:As much as I liked the reduced black level of the 111 and the new handeling of optimum mode I think I will wait out the arival of the 10G 0 black.

For now I will have to suffer with my 150.;)
Sorry I couldn't make both events.

Well, yesterday I learned that AVSers don’t just play a group of cool, generous folks who gather to learn and share information on the internet. .............

Great report Vashti, thanks so much. I just posted that I was surprised the sammy outclassed the panny for many and now another confirmation. I may have to redo my choices list. I'm still trying to figure a way to the 151 or at least 6020.

...Edit: My bad I skim :D

What happened to the AVS lunch?? Are you still going to that?

You need to read her entire post. The lunch was covered.

Great report Vashti, thanks so much. I just posted that I was surprised the sammy outclassed the panny for many and now another confirmation. I may have to redo my choices list. I'm still trying to figure a way to the 151 or at least 6020.

It does not surprise me that the Samsung beat the Panasonic plasma. I have yet to see a current Panasonic plasma that I would own. Samsung's experience with DLP color management appears to be showing up in their other products. They also are putting more attention to proper gamma than Panasonic.

Yep, it was in the report. Must of gotten lost in all my verbiage. Twelve of us went to lunch after the shoot-out. For me, it was one of my highlights of the day - getting to meet people I've been talking to here for years. It was a great time! The food was good too. Djoel took some pics. I'm sure he'll post them.

Yep, it was in the report. Must of gotten lost in all my verbiage. Twelve of us went to lunch after the shoot-out. For me, it was one of my highlights of the day - getting to meet people I've been talking to here for years. It was a great time! The food was good too. Djoel took some pics. I'm sure he'll post them.

He already posted them, Vashti, I don't remember exactly where. Here they are:

Pics (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14327757#post14327757)

Was there a Day 2 of the shootout? I haven't seen a report from anyone that attended, if there was.

The post just above your post is from Vashti. She was a second day attendee. Thanks Vashti!

I think that people who argue that the shoot-out was anything less than a marketing event are being disingenuous. The ROI (return on investment and return on influence) has been tremendous for both Robert and Pioneer. Just look how those names are all over the boards. Great branding. It was a Trojan horse event. For Robert the return is even better because Pioneer probably defrayed the costs. As a marketing professional who has made a great living from it for years, I admire what they did. The beauty of it is that they did nothing wrong. They were upfront about the displays involved and that Pioneer would have people there. I was able to draw my on conclusions about the event prior to the event based on Roberts truthful disclosure.

One problem they didn't see (or maybe they factored it in) was that even if the Pioneer won (it did) perception would be that the shoot-out was not held on a level playing field. Still as tey say in Hollywood, "Bad publicity is better than no publicity".

On the other hand, IMO, those who argue that the shoot-out was rigged and act like they've been duped are being less than honest or naive. They had access to the same info I had, the shoot-out became exactly what I expected it to be….a celebration of Pioneer because it is the best panel out there.

What did you think? They were going to name a Panasonic the winner with a Pioneer people sitting there?

In regards to the lighting? They were clear about that before the event too.

By the way I own the 111 and the event is what it is and was always going to be what it was.