Flat panel shoot-out 7/18-19/08 [Text View] - Page 4

petmic10

07-20-08, 03:31 PM

After reading many posts from some arm chair quarterbacks in
this thread who did not attend, I figured since I was there I
would give some feedback.

I want to thank Robert and Wendy for having this event. The time
and effort involved was very appreciated by me and I'm sure by
everyone in attendance. I think it took guts to hold an event like this
because Robert must have known that criticism would follow.

It was a pleasure meeting some fellow members including D-nice.
After only speaking to him for a few minutes you can't help but
see what a terrific person he is and how helpful and passionate
he is with this hobby.

Now, getting to my feelings on the event. Although Pioneer was
present I did not feel pressure in any way with them being in
attendance, in fact sometimes I even forgot they were there.
One time I did notice their presence was during a semi-heated
debate between a Pioneer rep. and KM about accessing the
service menu and voiding your warranty, but I'll leave that to
another discussion.

All in attendance were handed a Flat Panel Results sheet that
clearly showed various findings after calibration; white level,
black level, color decoding, greyscale to name a few. These
numbers are great on paper but I tried to rely on my own two
eyes and they were telling me the 111 was the clear winner.
The black level difference between the 111 and everything
else on the wall was night and day. Numbers on paper aside,
the 111 was definately the most pleasing to look at. When
the Godfather started the difference was clearly visible and
my choice was easy.

My second choice was a tie with the 5010 and the Samsung
650. Something about the 650 that my eyes just kept gazing
back at. Keep in mind these two sets are a distant second
to the 111 in my eyes. I like the way the Samsung looked,
I would be happy to own it.

I picked the Panasonic next because frankly it was better
than the LG and the Toshiba. Some content appeared soft
on the Panasonic. D-nice mentioned something about the
Panny having a big hump on the low end of the gamma curve.
He pointed out a scene in the Godfather were some detail in
the background was shown that didn't belong due to poor
gamma tracking.

I looked at the LG but honestly having them next to the other
plasmas on display it showed its weaknesses, black level and
gamma tracking was poor. And lastly the Toshiba didn't really
belong in this shoot-out unless they decide to turn the lights
on.:)

We went to lunch, which I really enjoyed, Robert thanks for
recommending the Hot Turkey platter, it was delicious.:) Meeting
fellow AVS members was just icing on the cake for me.

After lunch, we went back to Robert's and had them put on
some Direct TV(standard def. material) and obviously this is
not a strong point of these sets, but the Samsung and the 111
seem to do it better than all others. The 5010 was the next
best followed by the Toshiba, LG and lastly Panasonic.

I thought the Panasonic was the worst at standard def material.
It was much softer than the others and it was doing something
weird with regards to overscan by stretching the picture
greatly. Ugly to say the least.

In closing, all these sets are terrific and do many things well
but when they are hanging on the wall next to the 111 my
eyes don't lie.

chadmak09

07-20-08, 03:31 PM

I really like the colors of the new Samsung LCD sets. They are close to what is available on the Pioneer Elite series. The Toshiba on the other hand is horrible.

Here is a link to my comments and measurements for the A650 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13892707&postcount=9114.

What about black levels,contrast ratio, motion handling, screen reflectiveness, color depth,, screen uniformity,etc.?

Does it beat the 111??

chadmak09

07-20-08, 03:47 PM

Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone is giving D-nice a bad time in this Thread.

I can assure you of one thing, D-nice is one of the most respected and 'feared' members on this Forum within Pioneer.

-S

I mention D-Nice because he was there and drove so far to speak at the event. I didn't want to leave him out.
But you are correct, noone is giving D-nice a bad time.

nywe

07-20-08, 03:48 PM

I have only worked on the two Pioneers and the Toshiba at this point. Between those I would rate them in the following order of quality Pioneer Elite 111, Pioneer 5010, Toshiba LCD. The Toshiba LCD is so poor I will not work on another.

How would you compare the Elite 111 to the Samsung 650 LCD? I was really hoping they would have the Samsung LCD at the shootout.

Zues

07-20-08, 03:49 PM

What about black levels,contrast ratio, motion handling, screen reflectiveness, color depth,, screen uniformity,etc.?

Does it beat the 111??

I know for me it would take me 2 seconds to pick what's currently available. 151fd.

pbc

07-20-08, 03:50 PM

All in attendance were handed a Flat Panel Results sheet that
clearly showed various findings after calibration; white level,
black level, color decoding, greyscale to name a few.

Has anyone posted this? Would be interesting to see!!

eddiscus

07-20-08, 04:02 PM

Has anyone posted this? Would be interesting to see!!

I believe Ken Ross posted 3 pages of results about 2 pages back. I was there on friday but they had not printed the results due to the noise the printer would have made. It was voted E-Maill distribution would be ok. If there were more than those 3 pages could someone that was there saturday post the rest. Otherwise I have the ones Ken posted.

Zues

07-20-08, 04:09 PM

Has anyone posted this? Would be interesting to see!!

Judging from this pic, brightened a little, the elite dominated with blacks(bottom middle), and the display left to it.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1149/flatpanelshootout016we5.jpg

pbc

07-20-08, 04:10 PM

Yes, saw that pic, but was interested to see the results of the other measurements of all sets. I.e., how closely they tracked to D6500, color charts, etc.

GobbityGotz

07-20-08, 04:22 PM

Yup. It's called white screen.

It's also called: turn up the lights and the blacks go grey.

ramazur

07-20-08, 04:25 PM

Would you get a Ferrari F430 and complain that it doesn't handle good with snow tires? Absolutely not. Because it's a very high performance vehicle that needs the best tires to perform.

Would you try to take the Ferrari to the Indy 500 and I don't mean as a pace car? If they let you, and they wouldn't, would you call it a competition or a shootout? No, you would call it an execution of the Ferrari.
Back to TVs. Would somebody try to explain the purpose of including the Toshiba without using the t-word in the reply.

oldcband

07-20-08, 04:29 PM

How would you compare the Elite 111 to the Samsung 650 LCD? I was really hoping they would have the Samsung LCD at the shootout.

White levels have always been disregarded in this the flat panel forum. A TV will never be complete with out this important component.

MonkeyMafia

07-20-08, 04:31 PM

Here's a shot of the Samsung 55" A950 LCD tv I took...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=115680&d=1216583014

Here's a video of it in action:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=I3LE2L1X

!warning! 100mb file (640x460x30fps)

Can't wait for this to be thrown into the mix in the near future!

petmic10

07-20-08, 04:33 PM

Would you try to take the Ferrari to the Indy 500 and I don't mean as a pace car? If they let you, and they wouldn't, would you call it a competition or a shootout? No, you would call it an execution of the Ferrari.
Back to TVs. Would somebody try to explain the purpose of including the Toshiba without using the t-word in the reply.

It was the winner of the LCD flat panel shoot out a year ago.

In all honesty, it probably shouldn't have been there because
it looked pathetic next to all the plasmas.

LBDiver

07-20-08, 04:34 PM

One time I did notice their presence was during a semi-heated
debate between a Pioneer rep. and KM about accessing the
service menu and voiding your warranty, but I'll leave that to
another discussion.

Good on Kevin, now that I would have enjoyed watching on video. Considering they were there for the asking, I am glad some confronted them on this.

Thank you Petmic and the other attendees for the continued write-ups.

MonkeyMafia

07-20-08, 04:35 PM

In all honesty, it probably shouldn't have been there because
it looked pathetic next to all the plasmas.

Agreed 100%. That much is undeniable. The fact that it was SHUT OFF added more insult to injury for that particular LCD model from Tosh.

nywe

07-20-08, 04:35 PM

Which displays in order did you like after the 111 and why? Thanks in advance.

I attended the Friday show, here are my picks.

1. Pioneer Elite 111 - clear winner, much better than 5010. Improvements from 8g to 9g huge in my opinion. The black level difference is tremendous. No other TV in this shootout even came close.

2. Pioneer 5010 - solid second choice, but a distant second to the 111

3. Samsung A650 -- This was a tough call, I could go either way with this. The sammy had a sharper looking picture than the panny. The panny to my eyes had a softer picture but was showing more detail than the sammy.

4. Panasonic PZ800 - I will call it a tie with the Samsung.

5. LG PG60 -- was not impressed

6. Toshiba LCD -- had to shut it off, it was so bad with the lights off. I wish they would have used the Samsung 650 LCD instead of this model. Trouncing the 650 LCD would have officially crowned the Kuro as "The King" for me. It was clearly the King of all the panels featured in this group.

Ken Ross

07-20-08, 04:41 PM

I am curious why did they use last years non Elite Kuro, when this years model is available?

I would guess that this is what Robert had available (perhaps in the showroom to begin with). I think the main point in showing an 8g (non Elite or Elite) vs the 9g, was to show the improvement in black levels, nothing more. I would have been disappointed had he not had an 8g panel there to compare against the 9g.

kdpotato

07-20-08, 04:44 PM

There was mention early in this thread about taking real life power use readings off these sets (via kill-a-watt meters).
Did that ever happen??

Anybody???

Ken Ross

07-20-08, 04:49 PM

Not in my session.

chadmak09

07-20-08, 04:55 PM

I was really hoping they would have the Samsung LCD at the shootout.

I was hoping it was there also so the Kuro could beat it.:D

MonkeyMafia

07-20-08, 04:59 PM

I was hoping it was there also so the Kuro could beat it

Same here... I was set on buying the 5020... but then, I saw the Sammy A950 in person (also posted a pic and a video of it) and now, well, I'm gonna have to wait.

I've had my trusty PIO 503cmx for 7 years now, and am looking for a worthy successor. 5020 or A950? hmmm..... very very hard to tell.

A comparison between those two, and the XBR8 would seal the deal for me if the 5020 beats them.

ramazur

07-20-08, 05:05 PM

It was the winner of the LCD flat panel shoot out a year ago.

In all honesty, it probably shouldn't have been there because
it looked pathetic next to all the plasmas.

I appreciate your post but it still does not answer my question. With due respect, you answered why Toshiba was selected. I didn't ask that.

Your second sentence "because it looked pathetic" is the basis for my still-unanswered question: what was the purpose of including a pathetic LCD? It was as "pathetic" before the shootout as it was during so no surprise there. All of that was known before the "competition" started. So, again, what was the purpose of including ANY LCD in the plasma fest?

oldcband

07-20-08, 05:08 PM

what was the purpose of including ANY LCD in the plasma fest?
I'm pretty sure Robert had a plasma or two in the LCD love fest last year.:)

ramazur

07-20-08, 05:19 PM

I'm pretty sure Robert had a plasma or two in the LCD love fest last year.:)

So they did it out of respect for the 14th Amendment and the equal rights?

My question is still not answered and I am turning purple.

Zues

07-20-08, 05:19 PM

Maybe Robert decided that no samsung lcd would be present, because he would have had to provide tissue for all the eyes wattering from those blinding whites :) LOL

syncros

07-20-08, 05:23 PM

I was also there on Friday, and would like to thank Robert, Wendy, VE Staff, D-Nice (the guy drove up from N. Carolina!), "the Pioneer guys" for making this event happen and investing their time to the event! It was also nice of Robert and the two videographers to share the event with the forum and the online community. There were quite a few people there that are dedicated to this industry.

I thought it was a unexpected treat to get to see a clip of The Godfather on Blu-ray. Going into the event I had a good idea of which panel would most likely prove to be superior, the Elite. Not really a surprise.

Displaying black the Elite 111 excelled above all the panels their. I found myself trying to compare the Panny and the 111 more frequently than any of the other panels. From my viewing position (standing near the center camera), I would give the Elite 111 the top spot and then I would give the Panny 2nd. The 5010 and the Samsung were also quality displays but I just didn't spend as much time comparing them.

markrubin

07-20-08, 05:26 PM

I think everyone should relax a bit...no need to turn purple

many of us are interested in hearing members comments who went to this event

ramazur

07-20-08, 05:32 PM

Maybe Robert decided that no samsung lcd would be present, because he would have had to provide tissue for all the eyes wattering from those blinding whites :) LOL

Instead of providing tissue he would be better served by arming himself with the user manual. The above-mentioned manual, if followed, would allow him to set said set correctly to make the tissue unnecessary.

Still waiting: what was the purpose of including any LCD in the shootout? OK, I am breathing normal. My question is addressed to the organizers or anyone who was present and knows the answer.

markrubin

07-20-08, 05:35 PM

Still waiting: what was the purpose of including any LCD in the shootout?

give it up already please

Thank you

chadmak09

07-20-08, 05:41 PM

So, again, what was the purpose of including ANY LCD in the plasma fest?

This was a flat panel shoot-out. not an event to please fan-boys.
We wanted to see the best and thats what we saw.

Personally I wish the Samsung 650 would have been there instead of the toshiba. But it wasn't. Boohoo.

jacksim

07-20-08, 05:44 PM

Gosh, I've been researching the purchase of a new FP for quite some time now.

And so I found and watched the shootout video and can only feel that IMO it was just a poorly staged low-res infomercial for Pioneer biases. Didn't seem very objective to me.

However, kudos to those who put their time into the event: it's all exposure = good for business.

Aside from all that, Pio sets still intrigue me. Thanks for the read :)

tlinks

07-20-08, 06:08 PM

I would first like to state that it was an absolute pleasure that my wife and I were able to attend such an event. The hospitality and professionalism that Robert and his family provided was nothing but the best. As stated before those individuals with the ungrateful and disrespectful comments to him and all the others attendees that dedicated their precious time should be ashamed of themselves for stooping to such unprofessional levels. If you weren’t there and felt the passion and were able to hear how non-biased Kevin Miller and D-Nice were it is very difficult for you to make an accurate and precise judgment from the event.

Now for my wife’s and my observations from 2 individuals that were mainly subjective. We were going into this event with an open mind and going to decide on a panel based on our experience to purchase in the near future. I am not going to lie and admit that we had a favorite going in but we were still very open minded.
Right off the bat we were going to eliminate the LG as the picture could not compare to the rest of the field. We were off center from the Toshiba but I don’t think that would have mattered. The Panasonic appeared to have a film over it which drew our attention elsewhere. We knew hands down the 111 was going to demonstrate the best blacks, which was proven fairly and objectively! Once the lights when off we were all amazed. My wife LOVED the colors from the Samsung and could not get over the picture, once the blacks came into the equation it was an easy decision for us.

My wife and I walked away from the event with no pressure to buy a product from Robert or his staff. It was because of the genuine loyalty to the consumer, hospitality and knowledge that was provided by the non-biased supportive staff that my wife and I discussed we would rather give Robert our hard earned money than another vendor. Again my wife and I were subjective with our comments, to my surprise my wife knew more about TVs and their parameters than I did as she is a physicist.

I would also like to state that my wife is a wonderful person as we spent part of our one-year anniversary attending this event

tlinks

Buckeye911

07-20-08, 06:26 PM

I would also like to state that my wife is a wonderful person as we spent part of our one-year anniversary attending this event

tlinks

Wow! She's a keeper.:) You are a fortunate man.

petmic10

07-20-08, 06:38 PM

tlinks,

great post.

spongebob

07-20-08, 07:30 PM

[QUOTEI would also like to state that my wife is a wonderful person as we spent part of our one-year anniversary attending this event

tlinks[/QUOTE]

Give it a few years, :p LOL!

bob

madmatt151

07-20-08, 07:38 PM

I may have not stated that I attended day 2 on Saturday. I poste before about some of my observations, but after reading this whole post let me comment a bit, especially for those looking to buy a new TV, like I just recently did. First of all, if the people at Value Electronics were mean and nasty, inhospitable and talked down to us, the 111 STILL would have won. If there were Panasonic Reps there, the 111 still would have won. Im my observations the 111 is heads and shoulders above the rest of the field, but at a significant price premium. So I was looking at the 5010, Panny and Samsung becasue to me these are direct competitors to each other. The panasonic did disappoint me a bit. I cannot explain but it some scenes it wasn't so sharp, other scenes it wasn't so well defined with respect to color. Thanks to Dnice I understand the other problem ihad with it when I watched the Godfather, gamma. I wouldn't have known why I didn't like it, but he explained exactly what I was feeling. There were items that we could see on the Panasonic that we couldnt on the others. Its like when you raise the brightness level so high. If it were supposed to be that way the movie producer would have lit it that way. To me the Samsung was a very strong competitor. It looked amazing in some scenes and very good on others, just as the 5010 did. I don't find it hard to believe that some have strong areas where others have weaker ones etc.

As far as lighting, yes yo are supposed to wathc movies in darkness, but do we always watch tvin darkness? No, but let me tell you what sol me on my 6010. It was watchin a 5010 at Best buy with the regular coax feed on and I could see how much better it looked tan the rest around it, blaring fluorescents and all. So to say in a bright lit room Kuro arent good is coming from someone who doesn't own one. My living room has 4 large windows on adjacent walls and the kuro still looks great. I was all ready to get the Samsung when a deal too good to pass up came for my 6010, that is the only reason I didn't get the samsung. As far as a A650 LCD in the shootout, come on. Do you really think the 650 LCD is better than the 650 plasma??? if you do, then you do not belong on the plasma threads frankly.

prepress

07-20-08, 07:43 PM

Having thought more about what I saw yesterday at the shoot-out, I find myself wondering if I might try some extra saving in order to get the Elite 111, which also means: giving up my disappointment over the missing component input I wanted/needed, forcing me to connect my equipment differently and thereby surrendering some convenience; and, figuring out how to overcome the space challenge that the side-mounted speakers pose. This is because the 111 was just too good.

My other thought is if the reds could somehow be tamed, I'd take the Samsung; maybe I'd just turn down the red and brightness a bit and go with it. The red push wasn't offensive most of the time, but it stood out in comparison to the 111. I need more time with both sets.

The 111 and 650 were the two I kept coming back to, as I've said before. So I'm going over all the permutations of room configurations and associated expenses to accommodate either TV. Then, I read on this forum about new LED LCDs from Samsung. The TV business is officially as bad as computers; something new every few months, it seems.

Ken Ross

07-20-08, 08:11 PM

I would also like to state that my wife is a wonderful person as we spent part of our one-year anniversary attending this event

tlinks

Now THAT'S a hell of an anniversary. Wish my wife would go for that kind of an anniversary! :D

avssa

07-20-08, 08:24 PM

[QUOTEI would also like to state that my wife is a wonderful person as we spent part of our one-year anniversary attending this event

tlinks

Give it a few years, :p LOL!

bob[/QUOTE]

So true ... :D;)

LBDiver

07-20-08, 09:11 PM

My other thought is if the reds could somehow be tamed, I'd take the Samsung; maybe I'd just turn down the red and brightness a bit and go with it. The red push wasn't offensive most of the time, but it stood out in comparison to the 111. I need more time with both sets.

If that's your opinion I would say wait if you can and see either:

1) Tom H. is right and the color could have been adjusted further, equaling no push.

2) Based on the latest press release showing the new 50" Samsung 750 plasma slated for August. Wait and either get a deeper discount on a 650 or potentially buy the 750 if the release goes smoothly and the picture quality has improved.

3) Go for the blacks and buy the Kuro.

umr

07-20-08, 09:14 PM

If the shootout had the a650 lcd i don't think anyone would think it was a biased shootout.

These are the tv's that go bling bling when you walk into worst buy and pioneers seem to not, fare so well in those conditions side by side. I wonder what you yourself would choose between a 50elite vs a 52samsung.

I would choose the Pro-111FD for most situations.

coltsfreak18

07-20-08, 09:38 PM

I would choose the Pro-111FD for most situations.The exception being for high ambient light situations, I assume.

3lions

07-20-08, 09:52 PM

My son and I attended the event on Saturday and I want to thank Robert & Wendy for hosting this event and giving us the opportunity to see some good panels.

When we first got there, the lights were up and they were playing a demo loop. I was surprised how close the panels looked. It looked to me as if the 5010 had deeper blacks than the 111 which had me scratching my head. The LG surprised me as it had a better picture than I had expected. I changed my mind later (see below). I liked the look of Sammy and too my eyes it was slightly sharper than the 111. I am not sure if it had EE set but I suspect that Kevin Miller would have turned this off. What was evident was that the 5010 had a red push which could really be seen in the flesh tones. The Sammy was guilty of this but not quite as bad. The 111 and the Panny looked spot on when looking at flesh tones. Although the Panny did seem a little washed out

Next Kevin came on and started explaining the calibration process and what he was able to do. Then the lights went off while an all back screen was being shown. From behind me came a wow! (tlinks wife I believe. BTW congrats on the anniversary :)) She was correct, the 111 was significantly darker than the rest. What I did see was the "Dirty screen" effect that people have been talking about on a completely black screen. Thankfully I couldn't see this on regular content and the effect seemed to get less every time a new black screen was shown. Robert said that the panel only had 20 hours on it and it was slowly braking in. Kevin then displayed a white calibration chart and pointed out that the LG's poor gamma control which resulted in colours being displayed where only white should have be seen. The Toshiba had some of this also, but not as bad. What I also noticed was that the 5010 had some image retention from one of the calibration screens. This surprised me as the panel was over 10 months old. Someone (can't remember who) assured us that this goes away once regular content was shown

Next came Bob Harris who gave us a preview of the Godfather (not one of my favourite movies) but none the less a privilege. 2 years and 60 full time employees to restore one movie. I for one, had no idea it takes so much time and effort (Come on New Line sort out LOTR's Blue Ray before it costs too much to do ;))

Could the shootout been better? Sure, they could have shown a couple of LCD's. I would also have liked to see the 5020 next to the 111. I like a lot of people have been obsessing between the two. I am not sure if having the Pioneer people there was too constructive. The only thing I remember them doing was taking the company line with regards the entering the service menu and voiding the warranty. Needless to say, Kevin and Dnice were not too amused. I would have liked to see how the panels performed on SD but time did not permit. Having said all of this, the most important thing I found out is that in Robert and Value Electronics, I have found a dealer I believe I can trust and be happy to work with. It is great to talk to someone who is so enthusiastic and knowledgeable.

So in summary, A great day. Good to put a faces on so many people who I have been reading about for years. Dnice, it was great to meet you and thank you for all your tireless work. Vashti. it was good to meet someone who has been deciding as long as I have (I suspect you will beat me to getting a TV:D). I came in to the shootout wanting to like the 111 and did but was surprised how good all of the panels were and how having normal lighting leveled the playing field. If money is taken out of the equation then I would buy the 111. It is better than the rest in normal lighting conditions, but much better in complete darkness. My son was convinced that we should spend the extra money and just get the 111, however he is not the one who has to earn the money and explain to the Godfather of the family (his mum) why it cost so much more than the others ;) so I think I will wait for a Pioneer price correction and get the 111 eventually. Here is my preference list

111
Samy
5010
Panny
LG
Tosh

chadmak09

07-20-08, 09:58 PM

The exception being for high ambient light situations, I assume.

650 has reflection issues in high ambient light.
I had issues with the "super clear panel". I found it to be the most reflective display I have ever had. Pioneer has much better anti-reflective coating.

umr

07-20-08, 10:00 PM

The exception being for high ambient light situations, I assume.

Sure or a display that was for more casual use or one I did not want to spend the $$$ on.

coltsfreak18

07-20-08, 10:03 PM

650 has reflection issues in high ambient light.
I had issues with the "super clear panel". I found it to be the most reflective display I have ever had. Pioneer has much better anti-reflective coating.Makes sense.

Sure or a display that was for more casual use or one I did not want to spend the $$$ on.Completely agreed.

Vashti

07-20-08, 10:35 PM

Wow, I just got home and read through this thread. It's interesting how much animosity this stirred up. I'm not sure why. Could this be done better? Absolutely. But for MUCH more time and money. Who pays for it? And with what charges of bias as a result? Personally, in a perfect world, I'd give a callibrator 2 days instead of 1 to work on the sets. I'd hold the events on a day a store was closed and make it longer. I would have loved more time. I would have loved Kevin to talk about the strengths and weaknesses of each set. I would have loved more opportunity to question the Pio execs and wish there were some present from the other companies as well. I would have loved an hour or more of Q & A with D-Nice. There are a million things that I'd add. But then we'd have a 10 hour event instead of a 2 hour one. I can't imagine any other circumstance that would have given me the opportunity that Robert and Wendy did. I went to the LCD shoot-out last year and this one yesterday. I leaned a tremendous amount at each one. I really, REALLY appreciate it. For those of you who think you could have done it better - go ahead. Stop complaining, and do it. I'll come to yours too. Hey, I've got a lot to learn.

asystole13

07-20-08, 10:49 PM

Add C-Net to the Pioneer conspiracy theory.

Here's c-net's review of the 5020 regarding bright light viewing up against the Panasonic TH-50PZ800U and the Samsung's LN52A650.

Bright lighting: The PDP-5020FD has the same antireflective screen as the PDP-5080HD, and it performed admirably when we opened up the blinds and tuned on the lights, attenuating reflections better than either the Panasonic or the glossy-screened Samsung LCD. Compared with the Panasonic, the Pioneer sets also did a better job of preserving black levels in bright environments.

Here's the link:
C-Net 5020FD Review (http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pioneer-kuro-pdp-5020fd/4505-6482_7-33002523.html)

Djoel

07-20-08, 11:20 PM

Djoel

07-20-08, 11:21 PM

Add C-Net to the Pioneer conspiracy theory.

Here's c-net's review of the 5020 regarding bright light viewing up against the Panasonic TH-50PZ800U and the Samsung's LN52A650.

Bright lighting: The PDP-5020FD has the same antireflective screen as the PDP-5080HD, and it performed admirably when we opened up the blinds and tuned on the lights, attenuating reflections better than either the Panasonic or the glossy-screened Samsung LCD. Compared with the Panasonic, the Pioneer sets also did a better job of preserving black levels in bright environments.

Here's the link: http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-33002523.html

I think C-net pull down the page:confused:

DJoel

vancouver

07-20-08, 11:30 PM

I thought the event was great and kudos to robert for doing anything at all, no other dealer i am aware of is as creative and proactive. I was actually wanting more of a Kuro infomercial anyway.

turbe

07-20-08, 11:48 PM

The only thing I remember them doing was taking the company line with regards the entering the service menu and voiding the warranty. Needless to say, Kevin and Dnice were not too amused.

Though it's been posted before, like many Manufacturers, Pioneer doesn't want anyone including Certified ISF Calibrators in the SM's unless the person is factory trained, so it's no surprise.. though I wish there was more video when this subject came up.. :D

Though I have constant debates with some, the ISFccc Interface is not part of the SM and you don't access the SM to enter the ISFccc Interface.

I don't see Pioneer changing their position and D's recent discovery is causing a marketing nightmare....

Vashti

07-20-08, 11:58 PM

Hi turbe! Why is D's recent discovery causing a marketing nightmare?

turbe

07-21-08, 12:29 AM

Hypothetically posting, if additional PQ Controls available in the Elites were actually found available in the NE's that have officially been removed from the previous year, some may argue the need to pay the additional price for the Elite.

They are aware of the discovery.

pokerrx

07-21-08, 12:41 AM

I was at the friday evening session and I learned alot from just listening and observing. One of the highlights for me was listening to D-Nice answering some pretty technical questions about the Pioneer products (both current and future) and watching the Pioneer people mumble to each other and glare at him...priceless. (I'll bet they were gonna offer him a job :) ). You could not miss the love for Pioneer at this event. Walking into the store, the windows were covered with Pioneer logos and ads on the outside and on the inside of the main door was the carboard box of a 111.
I only have a couple of opinions to state:
1. This event was in no way a Pioneer biased event. Yes, Pioneer had a strong presence from reps to t-shirts to 1/3 of the total panels but primarily the panels spoke for themselves. They have arguably the best plasmas on the market and this just proved that point.
2. Kevin Miller was very informative and made a well laid out presentation. He stated that his reputation is on the line to be impartial. If I was in his spot, I would do everything to protect my reputation and if it meant letting either of the Pioneers be shown up by the Samsung or Panny so be it. In the long run his superb job performance puts food on his plate not Robert or Pioneer.
3. I am fortunate enough to be able to afford a 151 which will be delivered by VE this tuesday. I went to this event wanting to learn more about what I've read on this forum and that goal was achieved. I am still not a videophile, not by a longshot but I do know that there are other panels out there other than the Pioneer's that would make me happier than an idiot in cotton candy. I'm POSITIVE if I called Robert on monday and changed my order to a Panasonic or a Samsung as a result of this shoot-out, he would not ridicule me in any way because ultimately the decision is mine and mine alone.

I for one felt no pressure to buy one brand over another. If I was in a different financial situation I would choose the Samsung or the Panasonic because of how close they were to the Pioneer's. The LG was not up to par and the Toshiba LCD's motion blur would cause me to hurl.

Thank you to Robert, Wendy, all of the VE employees, Kevin, D-Nice and all the forum members for your input. Remember, this is just a hobby for most of us and if the biggest decision we have to make is which TV to buy then we are way ahead of the game.

billybob0405

07-21-08, 01:44 AM

bigdavy

07-21-08, 02:26 AM

I was at the Saturday session and I add my thanks to Robert and his family and his staff for putting on a great event. (If you were there on Saturday, I was the guy handing out the nametags :) ) Robert, I appreciate all the work you did to put this on, and I'm sorry about the attacks that have been posted. I found you to be honorable and professional... Please don't let the negative folks get you down.

Feedback on previous posts:

To the poster who said the Saturday session sounded like the Friday session, they were essentially the same program. It was a 1-day event that was held Friday and repeated on Saturday. I watched the Friday webcast and then attended the Saturday session. The program was the same both days, but the questions and answers were different so I learned a lot from seeing both sessions.

To those who think it wasn't objective: Perhaps you would have preferred an event where the organizers said, "We're not going to tell you who is best, decide for yourself!" Those of us who attended WERE able to make this decision ourselves. And yes, we are also able to take into account our budgets, our room lighting, and our personal preferences.

To the posters who said it was "sponsored" by Pioneer, I don't think this was the case. I think Robert scheduled the "shoot-out" and then invited the Pioneer reps to attend, after explaining his plans (especially regarding the calibration of all sets) and making sure Pioneer still wanted to be a part of it. Pioneer's participation was apparently part of their marketing effort, but they weren't running the event.

Robert indicated that he and Kevin expected the Pioneer 111 to come out ahead based on their previous experience in working with the various sets. IMO they didn't skew the results in Pioneer's favor. By calibrating the sets they attempted to make each set as good as possible so we would have the most level playing field possible for comparison -- both for a technical comparison (by the numbers) and for a subjective comparison (with our own eyeballs). Granted this was in a dark room. We also saw the screens while room lights were on, and all the sets looked closer with more light in the room.

There have been many postings (complaints) about why set XXX, why not set ZZZ, why LCD, etc. etc. Robert used this thread to solicit opinions on which sets should be included, and he got dozens of responses (which continued up until the day of the event). Some folks wanted to see LCD, some folks wanted to see 8G vs. 9G, etc etc. Personally I would rather have seen 5020 instead of 5010 because I'm not going to buy last year's technology, but there was only room for a few models and he was NEVER going to be able to satisfy everyone. (If your set wasn't included, and you have registered your complaint, let's move on please.)

Previously I had seen many reviews and posts about the Elite's PQ and black levels, but I wanted to see for myself how they would compare against other (lower-priced) sets. Even if the "shootout winner" was no huge surprise, the shootout was valuable to me so that I could see the differences with my own eyes -- especially post-calibration (unlike what I would see in a big box store no matter how dark their viewing room is).

One question that hasn't been resolved in this thread (I don't think) is whether Kevin's calibration of these sets used the service menus or just the user menus. I got the impression during Friday's videocast that it was just the user menus, but I don't know if Keven said this or some poster theoriized it. I can't imagine a "full calibration" that doesn't go into the service menus, but the service menus may have been considered "off-limits" since these sets had not been sold yet. (And the Pioneer rep was very specific that entering the service menu would void the warranty.) IMO this is one issue that would call into question whether all the sets were truly as good as can be. I'm kicking myself for not asking Kevin this question when I was there on Saturday. :o

(Also FYI, some of the sets were brand-new and not broken-in, so their readings might have drifted between Thursday and Saturday. Robert apologized for the lack of break-in, because apparently there wasn't time for full break-ins on all sets before Kevin's calibration.)

My opinion of different screens:

Sorry to disappoint any fanboys, but I'm basically going to echo what most attendees already said about the various screens.

I did not feel that the event was a Pioneer commercial because I could see for myself which was the better picture -- which was the 111. And not just based on black levels.

Djoel's photo of the white bubbles (?) on the black background, and the lightened version posted later by someone else, gives a fairly accurate comparison of the differences in black levels, which we saw when we were in the room. The Elite 111 was significantly darker than the other sets. Not 100% black (which we could see when the 111 went into its "standby" display) but still much darker than any of the other sets.

For the poster(s) who said we might have been influenced by the fact that we could see the bezels, or by the fact that there were Pioneer reps in the room, or people wearing Kuro T-shirts, etc. etc. etc., let me emphasize that we weren't brain-washed into thinking the black levels were darker simply because we expected the Pioneer 111 to have darker blacks! The blacks were darker, period.

I'm not a gamer but I am a huge movie buff and the Godfather excerpt was a great test of the different screens. It was (I think) the first 25 minutes of the movie with the DARK scenes in his office alternating with the colorful outdoor scenes of the wedding celebration.

In the office scenes, sometimes the composition of the shot has the left side or right side of the screen in near-total-blackness. The 111 was outstanding without crushing the blacks that were meant to have detail.

The 5010 and the 800U were the next-darkest screens. I thought they had very similar black levels during test images when the screen was all black or mostly black. During the movie, the 5010 usually looked darker than the 800U which looked washed-out and slightly overexposed.

Last month I had the 50" Panasonic 800U for 2 weeks and sent it back to wait for the larger 58" model. So I was already familiar with the (uncalibrated) 800U and its THX mode and what its color looked like.

So on Saturday I spent most of my time comparing the 800U with the 111. Also I was impressed with the Samsung plasma which previously wasn't on my short list. (I was not impressed by the LG's color or blacks, I'm not interested in LCD, and I'm more likely to buy a 5020/6020 than a 5010.)

During the Godfather and many of the test images, I was quite disappointed in how washed-out the Panasonic looked. And I'm not the only Saturday attendee who noticed this. The colors looked accurate but the whole screen looked pale. The whites weren't very bright either.

I was especially dismayed because I've been planning for 2 months to buy the 58" 800U, and Panasonic didn't look very good on Saturday. I tend to think that my uncalibrated 50" 800U looked better than this in my living room (for the 2 weeks I had it) but this may have been because I had nothing to compare it to, side-by-side. Kevin said that all the screens were put back to their calibrated/adjusted settings (not the out-of-the-box settings) before we started on Saturday. Perhaps this screen was one that was drifting a lot due to the lack of break-in...

(Did anyone at Friday night's session feel the same way, that the Panasonic image was washed-out?)

While watching the Godfather, my eye kept going from the 111 (impressed!) to the 800U (disappointed) but often stopping on the Samsung. Previously I had read very little about the Samsung but now I'm going to consider this set. It definitely had red push but if Tom H. is correct, then this should be correctable. Even though the black wasn't as dark as on the 111, on the Samsung the colors seemed to "pop" nicely, almost as well as the 111 and much better than the washed-out 800U. Here I may be getting into a "what looks good to me" vs. "what is accurate" debate (since the 800U should be technically "accurate"), but the Samsung was definitely striking. I wouldn't want it with the red push as seen on Saturday, but if that is correctable, then it's in the running. I'm going to do some more reading and in-store visits for this model before I make a purchase decision.

My preferences for PQ:

111
Samsung (if red can be fixed)
Panasonic 800U (washed-out on Saturday, but it did look good when I had it in my house)
5010 (less accurate color)
LG
Toshiba LCD (wouldn't get an LCD)

All that said, I'm really not sure I want to pay the giant price difference for the 111, especially because I'm shopping for a 58"/60" screen which is already pricy. After seeing the 111, I'm now going to take a close look at the 6020, which is cheaper than the 111 and "should" have some of the same 9G improvements that made it into the 111.

FWIW, the Pioneer rep told me that the 5020 PQ would be better than the 5010 but I shouldn't expect it to be identical to the 111 because of a difference in the screen coating or something else to do with the screen hardware. (Sorry, I didn't get the full explanation. :( ) Plus I see how UMR is not recommending the 5020/6020 because of grayscale (?) settings that are no longer configurable in this model. Despite this limitation, its PQ still might come out ahead of the Sammy or Panny.

All in all, it was an interesting and eye-opening weekend. Now I have a lot more research and head-scratching to do! :eek:

madmatt151

07-21-08, 02:58 AM

Though it's been posted before, like many Manufacturers, Pioneer doesn't want anyone including Certified ISF Calibrators in the SM's unless the person is factory trained, so it's no surprise.. though I wish there was more video when this subject came up.. :D

Though I have constant debates with some, the ISFccc Interface is not part of the SM and you don't access the SM to enter the ISFccc Interface.

I don't see Pioneer changing their position and D's recent discovery is causing a marketing nightmare....

I was the person who asked this question to the Pioneer rep and to Kevin Miller. I asked if an ISF tech goes into my SM does it void the warranty and they said yes. The upside to that is that Kevin stated that he carries $1 Million liability insurance, so if per chance he did screw something up and Pioneer would not warranty it, he could buy a new TV. The pioneer guys were essentially saying they did not want average people or hobbyists going into the SM, which is why it voids the warranty. It was a funny and tense discussion when Kevin Miller said to he reps from Pioneer that he does go into the SM to calibrate and they just kind of stared at him. They asked him, "are you a certified Pioneer tech, NO. Are you a trained Pioneer tech or dealer, NO. Then it voids the warranty!"

av.pallino

07-21-08, 07:08 AM

av.pallino

07-21-08, 07:15 AM

I was the person who asked this question to the Pioneer rep and to Kevin Miller. I asked if an ISF tech goes into my SM does it void the warranty and they said yes. The upside to that is that Kevin stated that he carries $1 Million liability insurance, so if per chance he did screw something up and Pioneer would not warranty it, he could buy a new TV. The pioneer guys were essentially saying they did not want average people or hobbyists going into the SM, which is why it voids the warranty. It was a funny and tense discussion when Kevin Miller said to he reps from Pioneer that he does go into the SM to calibrate and they just kind of stared at him. They asked him, "are you a certified Pioneer tech, NO. Are you a trained Pioneer tech or dealer, NO. Then it voids the warranty!"

'could' and 'will' are vastly different. So is it important to read the fine print before an ISF calibration? i.e. make sure you are covered and since the warranty is void from Pioneer, how do you follow with with issues with your calibrator? call them on their phone? So not being able to adjust controls without going into the service menu is a big deal (for some). So, did we have the new Pio 5020 on display? After all, that is what competes with the Panny and Sammys for most? Or is the 5010 this years model?

Did you get to see what the Panny looks like in THX mode out of the box and compare it to the calibarated version? Would have been interesting.

nywe

07-21-08, 08:06 AM

[QUOTE=bigdavy;14333573]

(Did anyone at Friday night's session feel the same way, that the Panasonic image was washed-out?)

Yes, I was there Friday and I felt the same way.

turbe

07-21-08, 09:01 AM

bigdavy

07-21-08, 09:31 AM

I was the person who asked this question to the Pioneer rep and to Kevin Miller. I asked if an ISF tech goes into my SM does it void the warranty and they said yes. The upside to that is that Kevin stated that he carries $1 Million liability insurance, so if per chance he did screw something up and Pioneer would not warranty it, he could buy a new TV. The pioneer guys were essentially saying they did not want average people or hobbyists going into the SM, which is why it voids the warranty. It was a funny and tense discussion when Kevin Miller said to he reps from Pioneer that he does go into the SM to calibrate and they just kind of stared at him. They asked him, "are you a certified Pioneer tech, NO. Are you a trained Pioneer tech or dealer, NO. Then it voids the warranty!"

'could' and 'will' are vastly different. So is it important to read the fine print before an ISF calibration? i.e. make sure you are covered and since the warranty is void from Pioneer, how do you follow with with issues with your calibrator? call them on their phone? So not being able to adjust controls without going into the service menu is a big deal (for some).

So, did we have the new Pio 5020 on display? After all, that is what competes with the Panny and Sammys for most? Or is the 5010 this years model?

Someone (not from Pioneer) said that changing the service menu "could" void the warranty, because Pioneer would normally not be able to tell whether the SM was touched. The Pioneer rep meanwhile took the company line, and said it "will" void the warranty. I don't know that it's going to be an issue in real life. Haven't seen any posts where customers found out their warranties were void after a calibration, but I don't spend much time in the ISF threads.

The 5020 is this year's model and it wasn't one of the 6 screens on the wall. Some posters had asked Robert to compare 8th generation vs. 9th generation, although we wound up seeing 8G non-elite (5010) versus 9G elite (111). Big improvement in black level in 9G.

PioBeer

07-21-08, 10:40 AM

No doubt that the Pio 111 took the show, but what I am suprised about is how poor most people are saying the Panasonic performed. I really thought the 800u would take second place due to the fact with its THX mode it was suppossed to have spot on color accuracy and saturation.
Also, not many people are talking about the Pioneer processing, ie.. those wonderful ASIC processing boards, which is why I believe that even though the 5010 did not have accurate colors, for most people it took second place. There was just something about it that made it look "right". I suspect what D-Nice refered to as "a creamy smoothness" can be attributed to the processing and is what really gives the Pios their magic.

Djoel

07-21-08, 11:21 AM

D-Nice

07-21-08, 11:36 AM

I can assure you of one thing, D-nice is one of the most respected and 'feared' members on this Forum within Pioneer.

-SFunny you should say this as I got this impression from the Pioneer executives that attended.

SoSo

07-21-08, 11:36 AM

What I'm hearing is that there were alot of q&a that was not on the video. I commented earlier about not enough tough questions to Pioneer. Apparantly the questions were posed, those of us not attending were just not privy to them. Can anyone comment on some of the topics discussed and Pioneers response? Sounds like D Nice had a nice "discussion" with them. The offline topics could be some of the best info presented.

Billybob0405, unfortunately, a lot of the questions or discussion happened off-camera and in small groups during the breaks or after the event. I could not follow and capture all those actions. Sorry. You will need to wait for individuals posting their own conversation with D-nice, KM, Pio rep. or Robert if they are willing to share.

MonkeyMafia had mentioned about the Sammy LED LCD A950 as well as the Sony LED XBR coming in the future. I actually had asked D-nice about them. I am a gamer, I care about LCD and want them to be better but so far they are still not for me.

According to D-Nice, hopes are high but he is expecting them to suffer similar fate than last year's 81 series Samsung LED LCD. He said the technology, the software and algorithm, and the price behind the firing sequence of the LED makes them suffer from zone to zone. The best analogy is like a checkerboard. In order to keep the cost reasonable, they only implemented 180 zones: checker (I hope I remember this correctly). The problem will surface between the zones. But he said none-the-less, it will be way better then traditional LCDs.

bpmurr

07-21-08, 12:05 PM

6. Toshiba LCD -- had to shut it off, it was so bad with the lights off. I wish they would have used the Samsung 650 LCD instead of this model. Trouncing the 650 LCD would have officially crowned the Kuro as "The King" for me. It was clearly the King of all the panels featured in this group.

Having the A650 LCD there would have probably made everything outside of the 111 look worse. However, if you are going to compare the best Plasma sets you should have the best current LCD there. Regardless it seemed like a nice event.

eddiscus

07-21-08, 12:48 PM

Funny you should say this as I got this impression from the Pioneer executives that attended.

It is nice to have enthusiasts and industry professionals willing to speak their mind. It hopefully helps a manufacturer develop a better product.

I can see a manufacture not having certain adjustments on a non elite panel compared to an elite. But there is no reason at least one of the modes cannot have accurate color primaries/ secondaries and grey scale.

I purchased an elite knowing that not all consumer electronic devices (DVD, BluRay Players and others)are created equal and wanted that extra adjustability to get back to standard.

Keep up the excellent work D-Nice.

17seconds

07-21-08, 12:50 PM

This will be my last post on this shootout stuff. People (all KURO owners from what I can tell) seem to want to bash the fact I didn't think this event was a true shootout. They assume I'm some anti-Pioneer guy no matter how many times I say I don't own a plasma yet, and as far as I know Pioneer is the best.

Watching this event I learned a little bit about calibration, a LOT about Pioneer and how fantastic their panels are, and nothing about Panasonic and Samsung. The thread leading up did not portray it very clearly as a Pioneer event. If it had done so, there would be MUCH less arguing going on.

So thanks to Soso and to the guys at the event for the calibration info.

Unfortunately even though the 2 plasmas I'm about to choose from (the Panasonic 800U and the Samsung A650) were on the wall during several hours of discussion, I know almost nothing more about them...

E-A-G-L-E-S

07-21-08, 12:54 PM

People argue just to argue.
They invested 'NOTHING' into this but were just waiting for their time to bash.

JimP

07-21-08, 01:02 PM

...snip...
I purchased an elite knowing that not all consumer electronic devices (DVD, BluRay Players and others)are created equal and wanted that extra adjustability to get back to standard.

Keep up the excellent work D-Nice.

eddiscus,

To carry your statement one step further, having adjustability also gives you the option to adjust to your taste regardless of whether its standard or not.

Consider, underexposed shadows can often times shift cyan/green. Whites jump out if they have a little blue. Golf courses having a little richer saturation looks better than the real thing.

I'm not so sure that Pioneer having a bluish bias to their gray scale with red and green push in the color decoder wouldn't actually give you better all round performance than necessarily everything meeting specs.

E-A-G-L-E-S

07-21-08, 01:04 PM

Very true, if you like those things.
But even if you don't and you want rec709 accurate they are still pleasing...especially with those blacks and contrast and motion.

RobertR1

07-21-08, 01:11 PM

Unfortunately even though the 2 plasmas I'm about to choose from (the Panasonic 800U and the Samsung A650) were on the wall during several hours of discussion, I know almost nothing more about them...

Read this thead for impressions from the people who were actually. There are also plenty of other threads in the Plasma forum that have these comparisons going on all the time with input from owners/insiders/calibrators.

daveappen

07-21-08, 01:12 PM

Between the Panasonic 800u plasma and Samsung a650 plasma, which one had the better blacks at the shootout (both in a dark and light room)?

bigdavy

07-21-08, 01:26 PM

My opinion: Panasonic 800U had better blacks than the Samsung A650, in the dark room. In the light room, I didn't notice much difference between these two screens as far as blacks go.

steve7100

07-21-08, 01:27 PM

People argue just to argue.
They invested 'NOTHING' into this but were just waiting for their time to bash.

That may be true, but then some points are valid. Of course this shootout/event/ whatever took a lot of time and energy, and they deserve credit for that. At the same time, if people didn't want differing opinions, thoughts, beliefs, don't post the info on a forum, magazine or any other format. Just keep it between the group of people that attended.

That being said, the information is still valid, just more so to some people. I also would have liked to see more info about the other tv's besides the 111, but I still received some information that I found useful.

D-Nice

07-21-08, 01:31 PM

Between the Panasonic 800u plasma and Samsung a650 plasma, which one had the better blacks at the shootout (both in a dark and light room)?
The Panasonic...and only by a hair. The 650 was an excellent performer. However, I did see a slight green tinge to the blacks on the 650 compared to the 800u.

pbc

07-21-08, 01:34 PM

Here is another picture I took from Saturday showing, all the flat screens are displaying a black scenes with no picture with the lights off.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/FlatpanelShootout011.jpg

DJoel

That's a great photo btw, you can clearly see how the Samsung is a couple shades lighter than the 800U, the 800U is a couple shades lighter than the 5010, and the 111 was clearly turned off. :p

This will be my last post as well. Just a final thought. In typical AVS fashion, this thread has turned into a fanatical argument about only God knows what now with the usual people from each camp chiming in and agitating some members into getting into wars of words which are really painful to read. It seems that no one is allowed an opinion that differs from someone elses.

The reality is that the Elite model sounds like it did, and rightly so, beat the rest of the panels handily. This shouldn't come as a shock to anyone, and I can't imagine any ISF calibrator saying this isn't the case. If someone tried to sell me something that was almost double the price of something else and this wasn't the case, I'd be pretty darn upset and likely never buy from that manufacturer again.

In terms of black levels per the picture above, the 9G was best by far, followed by the 5010, 800, and A650. Again, nothing that any reviewer thus far or any calibrator will dispute. No surprise.

Could the Samsung's colors have been tweaked better, yes, possibly. In looking at the charts Ken provided, I believe red, green, cyan and yellow could have been closer to reference, while blue and magenta were pretty much where they end up. I only say this because I have the A550 and have calibrated the colors to perfection. The decoder was pretty darn accurate as well (almost zero red push), and it's the first time I've read about red push on the Sammy post calibration.

Is it possible the other sets could have been tweaked slightly better, yes of course it is.

Would this have changed the outcome? No, the Elite would have still topped the sets given the fact that it can be fully calibrated.

I was more interested in hearing about the 800U vs A650 and 5020 (which unfortunately wasn't put up due to space limitations) to hear whether people felt more accurate colors would somewhat make up for "lesser" black levels. I'm actually surprised the Samsung did as well as it did. I returned my 85U for the 58A550 and kept wondering if I should have waited for the 58" 800U even though it was going to be several hundred more. Glad I didn't.

Will I buy a Pioneer Elite when my 16 month old is older and I don't spend 80% of my "viewing" time watching Barney, Hi-Five, Blues Clues, Bob the Builder etc (where black levels aren't exactly my biggest concern, unless you're referring to diaper stains)? Possibly. :D

bigdavy

07-21-08, 01:47 PM

...
Watching this event I learned a little bit about calibration, a LOT about Pioneer and how fantastic their panels are, and nothing about Panasonic and Samsung. The thread leading up did not portray it very clearly as a Pioneer event. If it had done so, there would be MUCH less arguing going on.
...

My two cents: Pioneer reps attended, Pioneer T-shirts were available, there was a Pioneer-produced film clip about cinematographers, and Pioneer had the best picture quality in my opinion (and in the opinion of Kevin, Robert, the Paramount exec, etc). However it was not designed to be a "Pioneer event" and wasn't really presented that way either IMO.

Robert, Kevin, D-Nice and many attendees were talking a lot about the Pioneer 111 because of how it looked better in many respects. The Pioneer reps did not do a sales pitch as part of the program, they just answered questions.

I realize that having reps present from Panasonic, Samsung, etc., would have made many AVS folks feel the event was more neutral. But this wouldn't have made the 111 less impressive.

Waboman

07-21-08, 01:49 PM

...I hate baseball (sorry) and just couldn’t do it.

Ouch. Perhaps you're not watching the right team (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/index.jsp?c_id=min) on a Kuro.;)

markrubin

07-21-08, 01:58 PM

In typical AVS fashion, this thread has turned into a fanatical argument about only God knows what now with the usual people from each camp chiming in and agitating some members into getting into wars of words which are really painful to read. It seems that no one is allowed an opinion that differs from someone elses.

Sadly this is the case

I think Robert went out of his way to put on an excellent two day event: putting up some of the best flat panels, hiring a highly respected ISF calibrator, and bringing together many of AVS' most respected members: sorry I was unable to attend.

I don't know who else would have spent the time and $$$ to arrange such an event

I for one will say kudos to Robert: Good Show

Waboman

07-21-08, 02:17 PM

I for one will say kudos to Robert: Good Show

+1. Thank you Robert!!!

DTV TiVo Dealer

07-21-08, 03:10 PM

First and foremost, Wendy, my great partner in life and business and I want to take this opportunity to very sincerely thank those who made this event possible.

Kevin Miller of ISFTV, our ISF expert calibrator, instructor, event planning advisor and expert keynote presenter.

Mr. Robert Harris principal of Film Preserve, our VIP surprise guest who brought us an advanced screening of 20 minutes of the exceptional video and arguably the single best Hollywood production of all times, the Godfather, re-mastered for BD.

D-Nice, what more can anyone say, you are the very BEST! Thank you so very much for taking the very long drive to attend and be a major participator for this shoot-out.

SoSo, Ed and K, you guys are amazing, thanks for memorialize this great event by doing all of the video.. SoSo you worked so hard to set-up the IP Cast, thank you!

My staff of 10 of the most dedicated and talented people I have ever worked with.

Unfortunately, I also want to say that I am disappointed and personally feel sad to read some members posts disclaiming the way my shoot-out was performed and the results. Many of the statements are just simply not true and members who actually attended have corrected some of the misinformation from the few members who just seem to be bent on discrediting the event for their own personal agenda. After our first shoot-out event on Friday, 7/18, I was deeply disturbed when I read one members post and honestly could not get a second of sleep as my personal honor and integrity as well as that of Kevin Miller was questioned. The post went even further to say we ran a sales event and not a shoot-out. So my second day introduction was completely different and I must say this post got to me so I want to apologize to those who attended day two as my opening remarks were completely different as I focused on the disturbing post from the day before.

Here are a few additional facts.

First, the room was NOT totally dark. We have three very large windows in front of the store and the full sun comes directly into our store. I did have black out banners made for the event that covered almost all of the windows, but a lot of light entered the room at all times from all 12 sides of the three windows rendering the room with a fair amount of light throughout the entire event. We also have a large well-lit EXIT sign and plenty of light was also generated from the TVs’ that was reflected back onto all of the screens as it reflected off of our white ceiling. Anyone could walk around the room during the event and easily see with the ambient room light. If we had a totally dark room the panels with higher contrast and blacker blacks would have even looked better. Now we do have a dedicated theater room, which is totally black, no measurable or visible light whatsoever. This is exactly as I want it to be in the theater so we can demonstrate the best possible cinema experience possible.

Some folks have incorrectly posted that some model(s) were not the flagship top-of-the-line models and that is just not true either.

Here’s the truth about it being a sales event. I did this shoot-out simply because I wanted to do it. I love this technology and enjoy teaching to all who are interested in learning. Last year we began our annual shoot-out event by hosting our first Flat Panel Shoot-Out with all of the latest LCD panels. It was a great success and everyone loved it. At that time I announced I would do a plasma shoot-out and if I made one mistake it was permitting any LCD to be included.

I want everyone to know that I consider myself a man of science and have been since early childhood. The only thing I hold dearer to my heart is my family and my integrity. I actually enjoy holding myself to the highest possible standards of honesty. I find it a nice and easy way for me to live my life.

So when we developed this shoot-out I did absolutely everything possible to make this a fair and honest event. To that extent I hired a licensed electrician to run a new home run 20 amp a/c circuit from our service panel directly to an outlet where our Richard Grey model 1200, a $2k + conditioner was connected. The only devices plugged into the RG 1200 conditioner were the 6 panels being evaluated.

To further ensure a scientific accurate shoot-out we feed only one BD player source distributed through a Key Digital HDMI 1.3a switch using the exact same brand/model/length of HDMI cable to each of the 6 panels. The panels were positioned in the center of the room very close together. Kevin Miller calibrated them all the same day using the same test and measurement equipment. We very carefully recorded all measurements to prepare the statistics for each panel on three easy to read spreadsheet pages.

I had no limit to the budget and in no way was I concerned or even thinking about ROI in any way whatsoever. Other ISF certified technicians were available at no charge to us and we chose to work with and pay Kevin Miller to ensure the best possible and most unbiased results as his reputation and extensive published reviews are a testament to his integrity and quality shoot-out specialty and unbiased review of advanced a/v equipment. I hope this help members and visitors with the truthful facts about how the shoot-out was actually performed.

I closed my store for this private event on Saturday; our best retail day, with lots of local customer closed out for three hours to accommodate this private shoot-out event. I personally put a great deal of time, energy, and resources into making this a successful and accurate event.

We included Pioneer's 8G panel to show the progression of increased black level and contrast ratio.

Pioneer only agreed to combine their Kuro store tour with my annual shoot-out event so that's why they were present. The results would have been exactly the same if they were not there. Pioneer was kind enough to provide the BDP-51FD, BDP-05FD and SC05 and a very small advertising budget that was strictly used for advertising in our local Westchester county market, no other costs were covered by Pioneer. This was no way a Pioneer sponsored event. All of the costs, ideas and all other parts of this were my own.

Many who actually attended the event have already contradicted other members’ posts and I am confident you will hear from many other members who attended the event to further vindicate the scientific accuracy of this event.

In closing I just want to add that nothing could be more telling and ironic that the fact the Pioneer’s Elite panel was the clear winner, the only TV of the lot I can’t sell to 99% of the forum members.

Now let’s get back to discussing display technology and the results of the shoot-out.

Very sincerely,

-Robert

Foot note: Kevin Miller has a very distinguished career, first as a manager for Runco and then he worked with Joel Silver when Joel began ISF. Kevin Miller was the very first ISF instructor and still maintains his very active ISF instructor/training position. Kevin is also a distinguished CNET a/v equipment reviewer. Kevin is the co-founder of TweekTV and owner of ISFTV.

HerbalEd

07-21-08, 03:16 PM

That's an interesting perspective. I certainly believe it was a good event for for driving business for Robert and Pioneer. They played to the right audience with the right product. Excellent salesmanship. Kudos to everyone who pulled this off :)

And so what if that's what did happen? It's not like it's some crime, and it's not like you figured this out and no one else did. I'm sure it was obvious to virtually everyone on this forum from the get-go that this event would have some commercial element. Only difference with you seems to be the personal indignation and horror you feel about it all, and your personal attacks on Robert's and Kevin's integrity.

If it were indeed a 100% scientifically pure shoot out then no one involved with putting on the event could have any commercial association with any plasma/LCD companies and all the units would have been blinded. And that ain't gonna happen ... so get oven it!!

Also, re. Robert's post just above this one .... I'm very impressed with the extraordinary trouble and detail Robert went to to zero out as many variables as possible with all the displays. Was it pure science? No ... but it was a damn good try. My congratulations to you Robert for a job well done. And don't fret the very few on this forum who would find something to bitch about ... no matter what you did. It ain't you ... it's them.

Buckeye911

07-21-08, 03:24 PM

Thank you Robert for all your effort in providing a great event, I only wish I could have attended in person. I apologize for all the negativity shown by members in this thread the past few days. If you do a similar event in the future it might behoove you to not read posts on your thread until after the second day. I know what it feels like to do your best to be objective and fair and then have your motives and integrity called into question, it feels like you've been kicked in the gut. Please know that the majority of us here on the forum have nothing but respect for you and are very appreciative for all you've done to advance and help us better understand audio visual science.

Thanks again,
Terry

Googlefan

07-21-08, 03:34 PM

Here are some examples of posts from people who attended "Day 2":
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14326759#post14326759
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14326834#post14326834
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14327757#post14327757
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14328197#post14328197
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14329146#post14329146
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14329671#post14329671

Great post, thanks!

Was there a comparison of the new deep-color feature of the pioneer blu-ray players (demo with and without 12-bit active)?

avhappy

07-21-08, 03:57 PM

First and foremost, Wendy, my great partner in life and business and I want to take this opportunity to very sincerely thank those who made this event possible.

Hi Robert - My husband and I not only learned an immense amount but thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks for the opportunity! It helped us in our decision for a panel. We'll be back sometime soon to check out the theater too. And if you have another event and need some help setting up, let us know; we're nearby. THANKS! :)

prepress

07-21-08, 04:18 PM

If that's your opinion I would say wait if you can and see either:

1) Tom H. is right and the color could have been adjusted further, equaling no push.

2) Based on the latest press release showing the new 50" Samsung 750 plasma slated for August. Wait and either get a deeper discount on a 650 or potentially buy the 750 if the release goes smoothly and the picture quality has improved.

3) Go for the blacks and buy the Kuro.

I take it back. TVs are now WORSE than computers. Where'd you find the press release on this Samsung? Maybe the Samsung showroom has one on display.

HerbalEd

07-21-08, 04:42 PM

I take it back. TVs are now WORSE than computers. Where'd you find the press release on this Samsung? Maybe the Samsung showroom has one on display.

Just google "samsung 750" and "press release" ... it takes a few seconds and it's the first hit at the top.

asystole13

07-21-08, 04:53 PM

Robert,

Anyone who has followed your posts knows the type of person you are and the passion you have for the A/V industry. There has been many praises on your behalf for the effort you put forth for this event which was offered to the public for free. You didn't offer this event to people that own a pioneer product or who are looking to buy a pioneer product. Anyone of these critics could have emailed you and attended the event and asked any question they would have had. It’s a lot easier for people to do little and sit behind their keyboard and type negativity. I guess that’s what gets them off. Please don't let the negativity of a few forum members, who should be ashamed of themselves, ruin a great effort you put forth for an event no one else is doing for this forum or their community.

LBDiver

07-21-08, 05:34 PM

I take it back. TVs are now WORSE than computers. Where'd you find the press release on this Samsung? Maybe the Samsung showroom has one on display.

Here, click the 7 series plasma link.http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/07/18/samsungs-ifa-lineup-of-hdtvs-emerges/

aboutbob

07-21-08, 09:12 PM

Here, click the 7 series plasma link.http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/07/18/samsungs-ifa-lineup-of-hdtvs-emerges/

Interesting. I suppose it is too early to determine the differences between the a650 and this upcoming a705 Samsung plasmas. I didn't read any release date either. Anyone here know if there is a typical pattern to what Samsung does with TV releases?

One more thing, the bezel on this a750 Plasma appears to be the same design as the a750 LCD which suffers from what is being called the 'Hallo Effect'. I wonder if the new plasma will too or maybe Samsung has fixed this design flaw in this model.

rxrepli

07-21-08, 09:46 PM

I for one will say kudos to Robert: Good Show[/QUOTE]

I was there and can honestly say Robert put on a GREAT show!

vancouver

07-21-08, 11:22 PM

I watched it from Soso's web cast and felt I got all the info I was after. i only wish I had a dealer as dedicated as Robert in my area.

Great job Robert, and dont loose anymore sleep over loser comments.

Duck05

07-22-08, 12:12 AM

Robert, thanks for allowing the forum members (via SoSo's web cast) to "attend" (albeit I had to settle for the replay) - although you may be rethinking that position given the posts prior to and after the event. Hopefully you will continue to allow those of us not fortunate enough to attend (or in my case being on the "wrong" coast). The remote access you provided demonstrated the open venue to information. Great job.

As for the so called "rigged" outcome, what does it take for facts to speak for themselves? There are many various technologies at different price points and applications. For those that do not "dedicate" a room for a total dark projection experience (not to mention surround sound audio), flat panels are the best choice in most cases.

(And at the risk of stealing Auditor55's thunder, if SED had made it to the market at a reasonable price point, we'd all be having a whole different debate.)

Now I know how some of the members feel about the various magazines, but the March '08 Home Theater did perform an interesting "shootout of their own with 7 different mfg's and technologies and limited choices by price range. No surprise the two plasmas were the top choices but the Pioneer 5080 was selected against all the other sets which were 1080P.

As for all of the debate raised by "non-certified techs" entering a service menu and voiding the warranty, seems pretty absurd if you "stroll" around all of the various "Official Owners of model xxxx" threads for ALL of the display manufacturers to seek out how to get the best of these systems. This info is typically not sought out by casual consumers so why this Pioneer stance/display of "policy" can only lead one to believe that their long term plan (IMHO) is to sell calibration as an added revenue offering in the future (my theory is based on the direction they are taking the 141/101 with remote access).

Great job, again. Thank you - thank you....

JimP

07-22-08, 02:53 AM

This info is typically not sought out by casual consumers so why this Pioneer stance/display of "policy" can only lead one to believe that their long term plan (IMHO) is to sell calibration as an added revenue offering in the future (my theory is based on the direction they are taking the 141/101 with remote access).

snip....

We've yet to see how well the 141/101 with remote access works. It may be one of those good in theory things, but when it comes down to it, are they going to put a $20,000 sensor in a $6K set to take readings?

I think the whole service menu thing is to limit the damage that well intentioned people do to their displays. Don't you know people have really messed up their sets and then claim that it came that way. I think the service menu even discloses the number of time the service menu has been accessed to help Pioneer with knowing if the user did something to it or not.

chadmak09

07-22-08, 06:29 AM

First and foremost, ..................

Thanks Robert for this event.
I really hope you Don't lose one more wink of sleep over any of the non-sense that some of these guys are posting.
You did a great job and it was a totally precise and accurate flat panel shoot-out. And the majority of us know that and never doubted it for one second.

I love the fact that you went as far as even making sure that all the Panels were using the exact same brand of HDMI cables. Talk about thorough!:)
Who else would have went that far? I think that says alot about how determined you were to make it an even and fair playing field. Great work!

My main hope is that you don't let the untrue and disrespectful comments from some of these guy keep you from holding more events like this.
Because alot of us really loved watching and attending the event. I will have to come next time thats for sure!
We really do need to have more events like this thats for sure.
I definitly look forward to them.

Thanks for the event so much!
It was a total sucess!
-Chad M.

SoSo

07-22-08, 09:08 AM

cajieboy

07-22-08, 10:23 AM

Robert,

Thank you for letting me attended the event. It was definitely an eye opening experience. If you ever hold another shoot-out event, I hope you will invite me over. However, I probably would NOT bring any more camera, necessary computer and networking equipments.

As you can read some of my previous posts, I am very mad as well especially when those arm-chair quarterbacks started questioning yours and Kevin Miller's integrity and reputation. You can't even defend yourself on the spot. My guess is the personal experience for attending vs. just watching the stupid grainy internet video are totally different.

Once again, I am really deeply sorry for you and KM going all out but instead getting all those baseless and senseless comments. :mad:

Thank you for all your effort Robert, Kevin Miller, D-Nice, and everyone supporting the event.

SoSo.

I too am greatly appreciative to Robert and all persons involved in the Shootout. At first the negative comments distressed me greatly, but now I'm just ticked off. Soho, it was a special treat to watch the internet feed, and hope you'll change your mind regarding not wanting to do it again. Don't let a few jerks spoil the party for everyone else. Best to simply ignore this very small bunch of ingrates. Apparently, they have no idea of common decorum & decency toward the people that actually do put out great efforts for everyone on this forum, much less what our A/V hobby is all about. Remember, this is an open Forum, to the general public, and therefore is bound to attract a few bad apples. Fortunately though, these bad apples are a minority, & in truth there is a majority of very good folks on AVS that are deeply appreciative of the efforts Robert, you & Others have done toward the betterment of our hobby and A/V in general.

DAB

07-22-08, 11:39 AM

sorry there are 30 pages here. What is the link# that summaries the shoot out?

oldcband

07-22-08, 12:12 PM

I think the whole service menu thing is to limit the damage that well intentioned people do to their displays. Don't you know people have really messed up their sets and then claim that it came that way. I think the service menu even discloses the number of time the service menu has been accessed to help Pioneer with knowing if the user did something to it or not.
You can't hide the fact your TV's service menu has been accessed. Its like an e-mail where the envelope has been opened. Can't lie yourself out of this one.

LBDiver

07-22-08, 12:40 PM

We've yet to see how well the 141/101 with remote access works. It may be one of those good in theory things, but when it comes down to it, are they going to put a $20,000 sensor in a $6K set to take readings?

I think the whole service menu thing is to limit the damage that well intentioned people do to their displays. Don't you know people have really messed up their sets and then claim that it came that way. I think the service menu even discloses the number of time the service menu has been accessed to help Pioneer with knowing if the user did something to it or not.

However, now that Pioneer has stripped Pure mode and mid-level controls from such an expensive panel, they have forced people into accessing the SM just to try and regain some of the lost PQ due to their choice.

I believe I read in the service manual that there is a clear history command that will flush access and change logs, so no worry there.

I realize that Pioneer is trying to maintain a separation, they probably got complaints from Elite owners like Porsche did when they re-styled the Boxster too close to the Carrera. In Porsche's case though they may look the same, but one's a completely different animal, in Pioneer's case not only do they look alike, they internally are alike and are paying additional money for the equivalent of an engine re-mapping.

IMHO Pio should bump the Elites to the 101/141 menu options but through the remote control only, and the non-E to the Elite color controls so that you can at least have it ISF'd without Pioneer threatening you and your calibrator.

xb1032

07-22-08, 01:00 PM

Wow. Lot's of arguing going on here.

My take is that people's expectations were too high of Robert. One man's idea of a shootout may differ from another and unfortunately you can't please everyone.

Please show me a professional review where the reviewer provides seperate reviews for on how well a TV does in a bright room, modest lighting, and a darkened room? I doubt you'll find one.

It's a shame that Robert went to this trouble only for others to bad mouth him and question his integrity. People take no thought how their comments may adversely affect another person. If people were face to face with each other I'd bet over half of the inconsiderate remarks made on AVS wouldn' happen.

HerbalEd

07-22-08, 01:20 PM

If people were face to face with each other I'd bet over half of the inconsiderate remarks made on AVS wouldn' happen.

You are so right here. For one thing, face-to-face rudeness might get someone's ass kicked. It's similar to how people act in traffic. No one in a supermarket would flip the bird or yell at someone who moves their shopping cart to slow, but a lot of people will do such in traffic. This kind of stuff is what I hate about so-called "discussion" on the internet.

Sorry for the off topic rant but I feel so much better now.

JimP

07-22-08, 01:36 PM

IMHO Pio should bump the Elites to the 101/141 menu options but through the remote control only, and the non-E to the Elite color controls so that you can at least have it ISF'd without Pioneer threatening you and your calibrator.

LB,

Good idea.....and if Pioneer doesn't want to do it, I'm sure their competition would be more than glad to. :)

What's so hard about putting a "reset button" on the set so if something does get messed up in the service menu, you can at least get it back to where it was when it was shipped from the factory.

greenland

07-22-08, 01:51 PM

billybob0405

07-22-08, 02:54 PM

How about every one just knock of all the talk about who's feelings are hurt, and who wants to thank someone for going to so much effort. Regardless of what people did or did not take away from the demonstration; the reality is that it was a business promotion set up by a business owner.

The thread was set up on the Plasma forum only, so clearly that indicated that LCD displays were almost an after thought. On the OT, Pioneer was given special mention. So there clearly was some selective consideration at play.

I don't really care. Once you have a vendor starting a promotion thread on an owner's discussion forum, you should know that it is a business promotion, and you should be aware of that going in.

How about someone who actually attended starting a thread that spells out, chapter and verse, about each panel that was compared, and what were the pros and cons that were revealed about each panel in the shootout.

The event is over. It was a business promotion. Can we just leave it at that, and now just focus on what was learned. After all, isn't that what the whole exercise was supposed to be about.

In the words of of Clara Peller: "where's the beef?"

</div>

No, because your all wet. Attending members have given their opinions on each set that was present. I don't think for one second that the AVS members, or anyone else taking the time to attend this event, are naive about the event or how it was run. These folks are knowledgable and outspoken. Not being able to attend, I was able to get enough information from the attendees reports to change my priority in the set's I am choosing from. What more could I ask for? If other vendors chose not to attend, that's their problem, not Robert's. It's good that Pioneer was there, there were some interesting conversations, off camera, that we have heard reported. If you want more than what was presented at this event, I don't know where you can turn to. I agree, maybe the LCD was an afterthought, but it was present because many members asked for an LCD and Robert obliged with the winner of the LCD shootout. Pioneer won. Pioneer has won in all of the reviews that appear anywhere. That doesn't mean I'll buy one, but perhaps I will. I have better information to make my decision with due to Robert's effort's and I applaud him.

MegaByte

07-22-08, 02:59 PM

How about every one just knock of all the talk about who's feelings are hurt, and who wants to thank someone for going to so much effort.

Right....No need to thank Robert for the time (most likely months) he and Wendy and all the others involved on putting together this event.

LCD displays were almost an after thought

WRONG.... It was a well thought out event. Did you even take the time to PM or heaven forbid, give Robert a call and ask him what his thoughts on this were? I think not. Far too easy to criticize on the net.

The event is over. It was a business promotion. Can we just leave it at that, and now just focus on what was learned. After all, isn't that what the whole exercise was supposed to be about.

There are plenty of posts from people who where at this (as you call it) "business promotion", that have posted their thoughts and what they learned.

In the words of of Clara Peller: "where's the beef?".

"Were's the respect" greenland?

russwong

07-22-08, 03:22 PM

It's difficult to even read through this thread, because of the attitude and just plain audacity of people who can post anonymously on the internet.

Robert: While I wasn't able to attend, I know the amount of effort and energy went into it. Yes, you run a business but anyone who is trying to say this was purely a marketing ploy from you is ignorant.

Numerous people have said it and I want to reiterate it. Ignore these people who clearly have no understanding and are speaking out of ignorance. Your passion and contributions are invaluable. Do not let these people bring you down in any way.

I'd like to think everyone on this forum is an adult and can form an opinion and make an intelligent decision themselves and discuss them like adults, but this thread seems to prove otherwise.

Russ

jvcarig

07-22-08, 03:26 PM

When you reference the Samsung plasma, is it the 650 or 550?

I was at the Saturday session and I add my thanks to Robert and his family and his staff for putting on a great event. (If you were there on Saturday, I was the guy handing out the nametags :) ) Robert, I appreciate all the work you did to put this on, and I'm sorry about the attacks that have been posted. I found you to be honorable and professional... Please don't let the negative folks get you down.

Feedback on previous posts:

To the poster who said the Saturday session sounded like the Friday session, they were essentially the same program. It was a 1-day event that was held Friday and repeated on Saturday. I watched the Friday webcast and then attended the Saturday session. The program was the same both days, but the questions and answers were different so I learned a lot from seeing both sessions.

To those who think it wasn't objective: Perhaps you would have preferred an event where the organizers said, "We're not going to tell you who is best, decide for yourself!" Those of us who attended WERE able to make this decision ourselves. And yes, we are also able to take into account our budgets, our room lighting, and our personal preferences.

To the posters who said it was "sponsored" by Pioneer, I don't think this was the case. I think Robert scheduled the "shoot-out" and then invited the Pioneer reps to attend, after explaining his plans (especially regarding the calibration of all sets) and making sure Pioneer still wanted to be a part of it. Pioneer's participation was apparently part of their marketing effort, but they weren't running the event.

Robert indicated that he and Kevin expected the Pioneer 111 to come out ahead based on their previous experience in working with the various sets. IMO they didn't skew the results in Pioneer's favor. By calibrating the sets they attempted to make each set as good as possible so we would have the most level playing field possible for comparison -- both for a technical comparison (by the numbers) and for a subjective comparison (with our own eyeballs). Granted this was in a dark room. We also saw the screens while room lights were on, and all the sets looked closer with more light in the room.

There have been many postings (complaints) about why set XXX, why not set ZZZ, why LCD, etc. etc. Robert used this thread to solicit opinions on which sets should be included, and he got dozens of responses (which continued up until the day of the event). Some folks wanted to see LCD, some folks wanted to see 8G vs. 9G, etc etc. Personally I would rather have seen 5020 instead of 5010 because I'm not going to buy last year's technology, but there was only room for a few models and he was NEVER going to be able to satisfy everyone. (If your set wasn't included, and you have registered your complaint, let's move on please.)

Previously I had seen many reviews and posts about the Elite's PQ and black levels, but I wanted to see for myself how they would compare against other (lower-priced) sets. Even if the "shootout winner" was no huge surprise, the shootout was valuable to me so that I could see the differences with my own eyes -- especially post-calibration (unlike what I would see in a big box store no matter how dark their viewing room is).

One question that hasn't been resolved in this thread (I don't think) is whether Kevin's calibration of these sets used the service menus or just the user menus. I got the impression during Friday's videocast that it was just the user menus, but I don't know if Keven said this or some poster theoriized it. I can't imagine a "full calibration" that doesn't go into the service menus, but the service menus may have been considered "off-limits" since these sets had not been sold yet. (And the Pioneer rep was very specific that entering the service menu would void the warranty.) IMO this is one issue that would call into question whether all the sets were truly as good as can be. I'm kicking myself for not asking Kevin this question when I was there on Saturday. :o

(Also FYI, some of the sets were brand-new and not broken-in, so their readings might have drifted between Thursday and Saturday. Robert apologized for the lack of break-in, because apparently there wasn't time for full break-ins on all sets before Kevin's calibration.)

My opinion of different screens:

Sorry to disappoint any fanboys, but I'm basically going to echo what most attendees already said about the various screens.

I did not feel that the event was a Pioneer commercial because I could see for myself which was the better picture -- which was the 111. And not just based on black levels.

Djoel's photo of the white bubbles (?) on the black background, and the lightened version posted later by someone else, gives a fairly accurate comparison of the differences in black levels, which we saw when we were in the room. The Elite 111 was significantly darker than the other sets. Not 100% black (which we could see when the 111 went into its "standby" display) but still much darker than any of the other sets.

For the poster(s) who said we might have been influenced by the fact that we could see the bezels, or by the fact that there were Pioneer reps in the room, or people wearing Kuro T-shirts, etc. etc. etc., let me emphasize that we weren't brain-washed into thinking the black levels were darker simply because we expected the Pioneer 111 to have darker blacks! The blacks were darker, period.

I'm not a gamer but I am a huge movie buff and the Godfather excerpt was a great test of the different screens. It was (I think) the first 25 minutes of the movie with the DARK scenes in his office alternating with the colorful outdoor scenes of the wedding celebration.

In the office scenes, sometimes the composition of the shot has the left side or right side of the screen in near-total-blackness. The 111 was outstanding without crushing the blacks that were meant to have detail.

The 5010 and the 800U were the next-darkest screens. I thought they had very similar black levels during test images when the screen was all black or mostly black. During the movie, the 5010 usually looked darker than the 800U which looked washed-out and slightly overexposed.

Last month I had the 50" Panasonic 800U for 2 weeks and sent it back to wait for the larger 58" model. So I was already familiar with the (uncalibrated) 800U and its THX mode and what its color looked like.

So on Saturday I spent most of my time comparing the 800U with the 111. Also I was impressed with the Samsung plasma which previously wasn't on my short list. (I was not impressed by the LG's color or blacks, I'm not interested in LCD, and I'm more likely to buy a 5020/6020 than a 5010.)

During the Godfather and many of the test images, I was quite disappointed in how washed-out the Panasonic looked. And I'm not the only Saturday attendee who noticed this. The colors looked accurate but the whole screen looked pale. The whites weren't very bright either.

I was especially dismayed because I've been planning for 2 months to buy the 58" 800U, and Panasonic didn't look very good on Saturday. I tend to think that my uncalibrated 50" 800U looked better than this in my living room (for the 2 weeks I had it) but this may have been because I had nothing to compare it to, side-by-side. Kevin said that all the screens were put back to their calibrated/adjusted settings (not the out-of-the-box settings) before we started on Saturday. Perhaps this screen was one that was drifting a lot due to the lack of break-in...

(Did anyone at Friday night's session feel the same way, that the Panasonic image was washed-out?)

While watching the Godfather, my eye kept going from the 111 (impressed!) to the 800U (disappointed) but often stopping on the Samsung. Previously I had read very little about the Samsung but now I'm going to consider this set. It definitely had red push but if Tom H. is correct, then this should be correctable. Even though the black wasn't as dark as on the 111, on the Samsung the colors seemed to "pop" nicely, almost as well as the 111 and much better than the washed-out 800U. Here I may be getting into a "what looks good to me" vs. "what is accurate" debate (since the 800U should be technically "accurate"), but the Samsung was definitely striking. I wouldn't want it with the red push as seen on Saturday, but if that is correctable, then it's in the running. I'm going to do some more reading and in-store visits for this model before I make a purchase decision.

My preferences for PQ:

111
Samsung (if red can be fixed)
Panasonic 800U (washed-out on Saturday, but it did look good when I had it in my house)
5010 (less accurate color)
LG
Toshiba LCD (wouldn't get an LCD)

All that said, I'm really not sure I want to pay the giant price difference for the 111, especially because I'm shopping for a 58"/60" screen which is already pricy. After seeing the 111, I'm now going to take a close look at the 6020, which is cheaper than the 111 and "should" have some of the same 9G improvements that made it into the 111.

FWIW, the Pioneer rep told me that the 5020 PQ would be better than the 5010 but I shouldn't expect it to be identical to the 111 because of a difference in the screen coating or something else to do with the screen hardware. (Sorry, I didn't get the full explanation. :( ) Plus I see how UMR is not recommending the 5020/6020 because of grayscale (?) settings that are no longer configurable in this model. Despite this limitation, its PQ still might come out ahead of the Sammy or Panny.

All in all, it was an interesting and eye-opening weekend. Now I have a lot more research and head-scratching to do! :eek:

HerbalEd

07-22-08, 03:41 PM

[QUOTE=greenland;14343615]How about every one just knock of all the talk about who's feelings are hurt, and who wants to thank someone for going to so much effort. Regardless of what people did or did not take away from the demonstration; the reality is that it was a business promotion set up by a business owner.

</div>[/QUOTE

You really don't get it, do you?? It's no longer about whether it was a business promo. It's about the rudeness and ill manners of accusing respectable forum members' of deliberately skewing the plasma comparisons .... basically using fraud in order to sell their product .... and they accuse these people only because they "think" it so.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone on this forum .... in fact it's often part of the process. It just needs to be done with some manners and mutual respect. Unfortunately these days too many people think it's fashionable and cool to be cynical and ill mannered.

gus738

07-22-08, 03:48 PM

+1 russ Robert i cant stress it enough to just say thank you for this great event and again cant stress it enough to say that ignore all the haters and ignorant posters. we knew the outcome but nevertheless it was a great event! i was didnt have a chance to visit in person and i only got a chance to see a wonderful ip webcast on a replay. thought if it were only 2 weeks later i could of since i will be in NC. i myself will be getting a PRO-111 not because this event but because its the fact the best FP period.

Off topic their was one guy that insisted soo much on the samsung 950 to be a treat? i saw the video that godforbid me took me 3hrs to download:eek:

the only thing in my mind was what the heck is wrong with that plasma its soo reflective and then i remember oh wait a minute its an lcd!!:eek:

so i ask myself not only its more expensive then its plasma counterpart but it has all the flaws of lcd And a flaw from plasma which is Reflection.

can this tv be any worse?:rolleyes:

sorry for the off topic but robert thanks for the great event dont let dumb comments keep you from sleeping good. the webcast was truely great because despite how its low res i was able to see that the kuro still shine! thought im watching it my PC's CRT moniter ;)

i never got the chance to meet D-nice :o

did anyone take more pictures of the event besides djoel?

for all those invoved in this event thanks ANd special thanks to Robert soso D-nice

It's difficult to even read through this thread, because of the attitude and just plain audacity of people who can post anonymously on the internet.

Robert: While I wasn't able to attend, I know the amount of effort and energy went into it. Yes, you run a business but anyone who is trying to say this was purely a marketing ploy from you is ignorant.

Numerous people have said it and I want to reiterate it. Ignore these people who clearly have no understanding and are speaking out of ignorance. Your passion and contributions are invaluable. Do not let these people bring you down in any way.

I'd like to think everyone on this forum is an adult and can form an opinion and make an intelligent decision themselves and discuss them like adults, but this thread seems to prove otherwise.

Russ

av.pallino

07-22-08, 03:51 PM

And so what if that's what did happen? It's not like it's some crime, and it's not like you figured this out and no one else did. I'm sure it was obvious to virtually everyone on this forum from the get-go that this event would have some commercial element. Only difference with you seems to be the personal indignation and horror you feel about it all, and your personal attacks on Robert's and Kevin's integrity.

If it were indeed a 100% scientifically pure shoot out then no one involved with putting on the event could have any commercial association with any plasma/LCD companies and all the units would have been blinded. And that ain't gonna happen ... so get oven it!!

Also, re. Robert's post just above this one .... I'm very impressed with the extraordinary trouble and detail Robert went to to zero out as many variables as possible with all the displays. Was it pure science? No ... but it was a damn good try. My congratulations to you Robert for a job well done. And don't fret the very few on this forum who would find something to bitch about ... no matter what you did. It ain't you ... it's them.

Firstly, I never implied that doing a shoot-out was a crime. Neither am I horrified over what transpired. If anything, the reason I myself bought a Kuro Elite 151 plasma is because I believe it to be the best for my needs. However, this event should have been marketed as:

1. Value Electronics Flat Panel Shoot-out. It should have been promoted on their website and not used this forum to promote their event (just my opinion).

2. This was a Value Electronics show since they controlled the testing and the set up. Nothing wrong with that, but let's recognize that.

I'm a little curious why the Pioneer 5020 (current generation was not used for the testing). Also, if the intention was to show progress over last year, then use last years Elite to compare with this years - keep it apples to apples.

At the very least the before and after calibration should have been factored (would have cost nothing) since calibration is something that is optional so a before and after of each panel in their best out of the box mode would have made sense.

DTV TiVo Dealer

07-22-08, 04:03 PM

Thanks av.pallino for your comments. I wanted AVS Forum members to be invited to my shoot-out as I love this forum and wanted the best a/v enthusiasts represented.

Yes, this was a **************** event, but 100% accurate and impartial as I am an independent CE retailer, we sell all of the brands represented and we hired one of the very best ISF instructors/trainers/pro-calibrators available to set-up, calibrate and perform the tests and to publish and present the results.

I would have liked to have last year's PRO-110FD, but did not have one so I saved my last PDP-5010FD as it clearly demonstrated the advances Pioneer has made in regard to further increasing black level.

I also like your idea of displaying the 5020 and had time permitted we would have done so. I have since put out a 5020 and it stands up very well to the PRO-111FD.

Funny how the winner is a product that I can't sell to the vast majority of forum members and visitors.

-Robert

greenland

07-22-08, 04:48 PM

russwong

07-22-08, 04:59 PM

billybob0405

07-22-08, 05:00 PM

HerbalEd

07-22-08, 05:19 PM

Where can one find the published tests and results from those experts who performed the tests. Why not have a thread where the experts who did the work can post the results. Would that not be of great benefits to the readers, instead of all the random observations of people who watched on their monitors, and all those who feel that they must take umbrage by proxy over every quibble or slight.

All that stuff is pointless, and sheds no light on the subject.

A dedicated thread please that spells out in detail what those experts who laid on their hands actually discovered. :)

Try reading "this" thread. There have been many posts by people who were actually physically present at the event. I can't speak to their expertise, but many, if not "experts" (however you define that), are very knowledgeable about plasmas and have decent eyesight and intelligence to determine which plasma they considered to have the best picture. Personally I don't care what the numbers say (although some here do). But I do care about what each plasma's picture looked like. Virtually each and every person who has written about what they saw think the 9G Kuro had the best picture. All of them can't be wrong and I know they weren't manipulated or fooled into seeing what wasn't there.

So "experts" and "tests" or not ... from what I've read on this thread I'm convinced that the 9G Kuro had the best picture of all the plasmas and LCD that were in the room. Actually I think you know it too.

GmanAVS

07-22-08, 05:23 PM

Robert, wish I could have attended or at least seen the live feed but have a good feel for the event from all these posts.

Kudos to you & the gang for once again going above and beyond the call of duty, please don't let your genuine audio/videophile enthusiasm suffer from a few malicious members calling into question the integrity of your shoot-out event and professionalism (same goes for Kevin et all).

D-Nice, did you post your thoughts on the various panels somewhere else or did I miss it?

Anyone able to see with their own eyes the deep color effect while viewing the Godfather BD?

Gman

RobertR1

07-22-08, 05:28 PM

gus738

07-22-08, 05:28 PM

also i didnt get a chance to see the whole webcast, is someone making a dvd or did some type of recording?

greenland

07-22-08, 05:55 PM

Because people like you prefer to criticize first then ask for the information second. Because professionals are not paid to spoon feed you, but I'm sure if you paid Kevin Miller for his time to post on this forum, he would do that. We're lucky to have the likes of D-Nice, UMR, etc who give their time here, but then to have to read some of these posts really amazes me as to why they stay.... because people like you find it easier to to complain then to contribute.

You are the one doing the complaining and making personal attacks. I urged that people, like you, knock of all the bickering and tit for tat whining back and forth, and I asked for feed back. Robert mentioned about the bringing in the expert, and since he promoted that on this this forum, it seemed reasonable to ask for the findings of the expert. Since you are not Robert, therefore you do not get to decide; so like I said, there is no need for you keep on taking umbrage by proxy on Robert's behalf.

I have no problem with what he did. I do have a problem with those who keep on trying to pretend that he was doing it as some form of Make A Wish non profit exercise. He is a business man, engaging in a business promotion. More power to him.

Since he mentioned that he brought in an expert, I merely asked if the expert findings might not be made available for all to read the results. As for Mr. Miller, you do not speak for him either. I know that you do sell Pioneer Kuros, so I understand that you think that gives you some entitlement to browbeat anyone with an independent thought or opinion.

Well, I have news for you; you do not get to control my opinions. Finally; you might want to start to practice what you preach. I did not criticize first, as you claim. I told the clear honest truth about it being a business promotion. What do you think it was; a non profit charity event. The more Pioneer dealers, such as yourself, become overly defensive about the promotion, the more you actually water the seeds of doubt about it. :)

markrubin

07-22-08, 06:13 PM

enough already: you guys seriously need to stop

from here on in: please limit your discussions to technical issues

bigdavy

07-22-08, 06:22 PM

Greenland, the expert findings that were handed out at the event were posted by Ken Ross as attachments to this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14326219#post14326219

P.S. if you read the thread from that point onward, you will see various posters' comments on these documents.

bigdavy

07-22-08, 06:29 PM

also i didnt get a chance to see the whole webcast, is someone making a dvd or did some type of recording?

SoSo still has the low-res video of the Friday live feed available at the following URL:

http://www.mogulus.com/soso

I think it's automatically replaying now on a loop, but you can click on the OnDemand link near the bottom of the player window to play the broadcast from the beginning (looks like it's in 3 sections).

The BD Godfather segment is not included in this video because it was copyright-protected. For those who were there, it was a treat to see such a great film (and great restoration) on Blu-Ray and on flat-panel, and it was also a great film for comparing the different panels' performance (as attendees have already stated in their earlier posts).

greenland

07-22-08, 06:41 PM

rveras

07-22-08, 06:45 PM

Questions.

The Toshiba set measured 0.007 for black level according to Ken which is 3rd best. The black level measured better than Panasonic, Samsung, and LG plasmas. How come then people are saying the Toshiba looked horrible when viewing in the dark and black level couldn't compare with to the other sets?

Also is the Toshiba set LED based? Call me ignorant but I just find hard to believe that an LCD that is not LED based could measured lower than Panasonic and Samsung when it comes to black level. Also I thought the new Panasonic measured around 0.009 for black level not 0.011. Wouldn't that make them worst than last year models?

As you can see I kind of confuse.

Aetherhole

07-22-08, 06:50 PM

bigdavy

07-22-08, 06:54 PM

When you reference the Samsung plasma, is it the 650 or 550?

Sorry, I did shorthand for some of the models which had been listed in previous posts. Here are the model numbers that were at the shoot-out:

Samsung was the 50PNA650
111 was the Pioneer PRO 111FD (Elite)
Panasonic was the Panasonic TH-50PZ800U
5010 was the Pioneer PDP-5010FD
LG was the LG 50PG60
Toshiba was the Toshiba 52XF550U (LCD)

chadmak09

07-22-08, 06:55 PM

What did K.Miller measure as the Minimum luminance of the 111?
I think I heard him say 0.002 but I am not sure if that was what he measured.

bigdavy

07-22-08, 07:06 PM

What did K.Miller measure as the Minimum luminance of the 111?
I think I heard him say 0.002 but I am not sure if that was what he measured.

Black level for the 111 is listed as 0.002 on the spreadsheet, this was Kevin's measurement.

Next was the 5010 with 0.006
then the Toshiba LCD with 0.007
then the Panasonic with 0.011
then the Samsung with 0.014
then the LG with 0.024

chadmak09

07-22-08, 07:13 PM

Black level for the 111 is listed as 0.002 on the spreadsheet, this was Kevin's measurement.

Next was the 5010 with 0.006
then the Toshiba LCD with 0.007
then the Panasonic with 0.011
then the Samsung with 0.014
then the LG with 0.024

:mad:

eddiscus

07-22-08, 07:28 PM

Here the stats again all in one place.
A special thanks to Robert a gentleman and man of his word.
Kevin for his dedication and professionalism.
D-Nice for his knowledge and sharing of information.
All other AVS members that have a genuine interest in the search for the perfect image and sound.

http://eddiscus.smugmug.com/photos/336881465_V7NbN-O.jpg

petmic10

07-22-08, 07:34 PM

What did K.Miller measure as the Minimum luminance of the 111?
I think I heard him say 0.002 but I am not sure if that was what he measured.

When Kevin calibrated the 111 he came up with a 0.002 but when
the meter was passed to an audience member for testing it was
fluctuating between 0.001 and 0.002.

prepress

07-22-08, 07:46 PM

Plasmas don't suffer from changing black levels from viewing angles like LCD do. You must be sitting directly in front of the television to see the rated black level. If you move even a foot or two off center, you will notice the black levels start to rise.

That could also be why it looks so poor to a lot of people.

Yes, I was there and pretty much directly in front of the Toshiba. At times, with light in the room, it seemed to have better blacks than the 111. And actually, I would buy the Toshiba over the LG plasma if I had to choose. Further, only the Toshiba and the 111 had no obvious red tint to the picture when we watched the Yankees game. But most viewers were well off-angle and so it would surely wash out for them. And once the Toshiba was turned, the blacks "blued" out and became much lighter.

The 111's blacks took over when the lights went down, however, and were better than every other TV on the wall. In fact, the overall picture was better.

madmatt151

07-22-08, 07:55 PM

Funny how the winner is a product that I can't sell to the vast majority of forum members and visitors.

-Robert

I don't understand why you can't sell Pioneers to the vast majority of us?

Aetherhole

07-22-08, 07:56 PM

Pioneer Elites because of Pioneer's mile restrictions on the Elites themselves.

madmatt151

07-22-08, 08:20 PM

Pioneer Elites because of Pioneer's mile restrictions on the Elites themselves.

Mile restrictions? I don't understand?

DTV TiVo Dealer

07-22-08, 08:46 PM

madmatt151, ^^ Pioneer limits the sale of Elite product to within 200 miles of the Elite authorized dealer. It's in every Pioneer Elite dealer agreement.

-Robert

chadmak09

07-22-08, 08:50 PM

When Kevin calibrated the 111 he came up with a 0.002 but when
the meter was passed to an audience member for testing it was
fluctuating between 0.001 and 0.002.

:)

If the meter can't tell the different then my eyes sure as heck can't!

I noticed in the video when an audience member was measureing peak luminance the 111 measured at 30 I think, Kevin immediatly said "somethings up" because he got better readings previously. Did they figure out what the problem was?? Did someone accidentally turn powersave mode2 on?? lol

eddiscus

07-22-08, 09:05 PM

Here is a perfect example if you go just by the numbers you can be mislead. What good is a display even if it had perfect black, that if you go 5 degrees off or perpendicular to the screen the black level falls apart. Viewing first hand is the only way to judge what is right for you. Or taking the word of someone who's opinion you trust.

av.pallino

07-22-08, 09:13 PM

I believe the Toshiba got a raw deal since LCDs are much more restricted in terms of viewing angle and perform best with some lighting. I own both types of displays and my Sony Bravia XBR is good enough that I would not replace it with a Kuro Elite in either my office room or bedroom (where they are) and I would not take my Kuro out of the living room for an LCD either.

DTV TiVo Dealer

07-22-08, 10:00 PM

good point av.pallino, ^^ but typically we recommend LCD panels for high ambient light rooms, like home offices, home gyms, sun rooms and kitchens. In most bed room applications we recommend plasma as viewing is usually in low light.

I have a PRO-FHD1 in our master BR and we love it.

-Robert

Ken Ross

07-22-08, 10:32 PM

What did K.Miller measure as the Minimum luminance of the 111?
I think I heard him say 0.002 but I am not sure if that was what he measured.

The gun was handed to me during the shootout and the meter measured between .001 and .002.

gus738

07-22-08, 11:25 PM

thanks bigdavy well theirs no way to buffer this? its a stream only right? i have a connection of only 200kbps so i cant watch it. but i only saw those 3 videos were from the same day what happend to the other day?

did anyone record the whole event?

SoSo still has the low-res video of the Friday live feed available at the following URL:

http://www.mogulus.com/soso

I think it's automatically replaying now on a loop, but you can click on the OnDemand link near the bottom of the player window to play the broadcast from the beginning (looks like it's in 3 sections).

The BD Godfather segment is not included in this video because it was copyright-protected. For those who were there, it was a treat to see such a great film (and great restoration) on Blu-Ray and on flat-panel, and it was also a great film for comparing the different panels' performance (as attendees have already stated in their earlier posts).

bigdavy

07-22-08, 11:35 PM

thanks bigdavy well theirs no way to buffer this? its a stream only right? i have a connection of only 200kbps so i cant watch it. but i only saw those 3 videos were from the same day what happend to the other day?

did anyone record the whole event?

SoSo was only available to webcast the Friday session. The Saturday session had the same program, same presentation, different questions and answers (and more donuts and bagels :) ).

I have read all the posts about the shootout and no one has mentioned any recording being available. However I did see someone with a video camera on Saturday, not sure who.

cajieboy

07-22-08, 11:35 PM

JimboTHX1138

07-23-08, 12:55 AM

Just wanted to say thanks to Robert for putting on this event and a thanks to SoSo for the live internet broadcast. I was watching from Australia, it was 8AM here. So thanks guys for the hard work that went into this and enabling me to watch from 10000 miles away. Greatly appreciated. Hopefully after everything that's been said it doesn't stop you from doing a live internet broadcast next time.

fallenbuddha

07-23-08, 01:13 AM

fallenbuddha

07-23-08, 01:19 AM

I too wish to express my appreciation to Robert for putting on this event at great personal cost and effort, and great regret for the hostile reception he has received from some forum members. I hope that you will not let it deter you from putting on future events or contributing to the forum. I wish I could have attended.

My thanks also to Soso for allowing me to watch the event online from 3000 miles away.

chadmak09

07-23-08, 05:10 AM

The gun was handed to me during the shootout and the meter measured between .001 and .002.

Chad, remember that the 111 had maybe 20 hours of break-in when measured. Remember also that D-Nice measured .002 with his 111 initially but it got better after break-in and is now as good as the 6020.

Definitly.
When I first got my 151 I noticed the black did not seems as good as the 6020 I had. That on top of D-Nice's reading of a higher MLL on the 111 as opposed to the 6020, had me worrying a little.
But after 80 hours on my 151 the blacks are exactly the same as the 6020.

The 9G elites definitly need a full break-in before making any assesments.

I was wondering about the brightness because I noticed in the video when an audience member was measureing peak luminance the 111 measured at 30 I think. Then Kevin immediatly said "somethings up" because he got better readings previously on the same set. I was wondering if they figured out what the issue was that caused the false reading??
We know its brighter than that because Kevin stated he got a better reading previously on the same set.
Also, When HDGURU measured the calibrated brightness (using a 100 IRE window pattern), it clocked in at 37.4 foot lamberts.

I was thinking that they may have got the false reading because someone may have turned the powermode2

av.pallino

07-23-08, 09:10 AM

Robert, now that you mention it I have to say it was a tough decision for me as well (plasma v LCD in the bedroom). Unlike our living room where we can have many people, and hence little control over the viewing angle the plasma was a big improvement over the previous LCD.

For the bedroom the angle is pretty well set and we tend to watch it for TV in the morning with the lights on as opposed to for movies. My wife is against watching movies or TV in the bed at night, we usually watch a movie (Apple TV or Blu Ray every night on our 151FD) :)

umr

07-23-08, 09:27 AM

The gun was handed to me during the shootout and the meter measured between .001 and .002.

Assuming that is a Minolta LS-100 the uncertainty is ±2 digits of displayed value at that level making the measurement pretty meaningless at those levels. For more accurate readings a tool needs to be used with greater sensitivity and it should use scotopic curves instead of photopic at that level.

AtomHeart

07-23-08, 10:01 AM

Here is what my particular Samsung 650 plasma looked like out of the box:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g318/Jumbaught28/CIEbefore.jpg

Here is what a properly calibrated Samsung 650 should look like:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g318/Jumbaught28/CIEafter.jpg

Is there access to the CIE chart on the calibration done to the Samsung 650 in the shootout? I'm sure if the calibrated Samsung looks like the second image, there's nothing more to argue about in that regard. Admittedly, I don't fully understand how to read the spreadsheets already posted regarding the calibrations, so maybe the information is all there.

Seems to me that, if the Samsung at the shootout was calibrated to this level of accuracy, any red push or oversaturation of reds in faces was purely imaginary.

DTV TiVo Dealer

07-23-08, 10:06 AM

Robert, someone wrote earlier (maybe it was you) that the Pioneer Reps brought along an Elite SC-05 AVR & an Elite BD-51 Player, but I've not read any results from this demo. Do you have the demo & if so could you share your impressions, or did time simply run out before doing so?

Here's what we had on loan from Pioneer, 1 BDP-51FD, 1 BDP-05FD and 1 SC05. The BDP-51FD was used for our shoot-out in the main showroom and the Elite SC05 AVR, Elite BDP-05FD BD player connected to our Elite PRO-FPJ1 projector was demonstrated in our theater demo room.

-Robert

Robert, now that you mention it I have to say it was a tough decision for me as well (plasma v LCD in the bedroom). Unlike our living room where we can have many people, and hence little control over the viewing angle the plasma was a big improvement over the previous LCD.

For the bedroom the angle is pretty well set and we tend to watch it for TV in the morning with the lights on as opposed to for movies. My wife is against watching movies or TV in the bed at night, we usually watch a movie (Apple TV or Blu Ray every night on our 151FD) :)

Excellent choice. I only posted my reply so readers can have a understanding of some common applications where someone might select an LCD over plasma technology.

-Robert

Assuming that is a Minolta LS-100 the uncertainty is ±2 digits of displayed value at that level making the measurement pretty meaningless at those levels. For more accurate readings a tool needs to be used with greater sensitivity and it should use scotopic curves instead of photopic at that level.

We did use Minolta's LS-100 meter. Very nice piece of equipment. Not sure how Kevin Miller had it set-up for low light reading.

-Robert

spongebob

07-23-08, 10:16 AM

Impressive. How about some screen shots,skin tones, etc?

bob

Here is what my particular Samsung 650 looked like out of the box:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g318/Jumbaught28/CIEbefore.jpg

Here is what a properly calibrated Samsung 650 should look like:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g318/Jumbaught28/CIEafter.jpg

Is there access to the CIE chart on the calibration done to the Samsung 650 in the shootout? I'm sure if the calibrated Samsung looks like the second image, there's nothing more to argue about in that regard.

8IronBob

07-23-08, 10:28 AM

From the one who got that "preview" look of the A950, how would you compare that 2nd-gen LED backlighting to the 1st-gen of the 81F, or even towards the levels of a Kuro 9G, for that matter? Anyone have any benchmarks as far as what we can really be expecting?

AtomHeart

07-23-08, 10:33 AM

Impressive. How about some screen shots,skin tones, etc?

bob

Sure, I can take some tonight...right now all my screenshots are off animals (Planet Earth). They can be seen here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14329506#post14329506 Please excuse the over-exposure on the camera causing the whites to bloom...I got a little carried away with the aperture on these, but they definitely show the change in colorspace pre and post calibration. Hehe.

I'll try to post some representative shots of humans w/ interesting color combinations that include skin tones and have the correct camera settings.

gus738

07-23-08, 04:08 PM

8Ironbob i didnt see the 950 in person but you can read what i wrote of my thought after watching a video on my crt moniter.... in short it has the flaws of lcd and plasma which is too much reflection i wouldnt buy that tv since the point of lcd is to Not have reflection but of course we know to have nice colors the screen must be glossy hence the plasma are better and yep reflective but atleast they dont have alot of flaws from lcd but of course people know this ....

here is the post
of my thoughts

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14344691&postcount=879

and the post of the 950 with a pic and video

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14330977&postcount=778

but to answer your question i think it will be better then the 81 and i also think the reflection is going to be worse then a pioneer 9g therefore the 9g again winning

From the one who got that "preview" look of the A950, how would you compare that 2nd-gen LED backlighting to the 1st-gen of the 81F, or even towards the levels of a Kuro 9G, for that matter? Anyone have any benchmarks as far as what we can really be expecting?

bigdavy do you recall any q & a from the event?

SoSo was only available to webcast the Friday session. The Saturday session had the same program, same presentation, different questions and answers (and more donuts and bagels :) ).

I have read all the posts about the shootout and no one has mentioned any recording being available. However I did see someone with a video camera on Saturday, not sure who.

prepress

07-23-08, 06:54 PM

AtomHeart

07-23-08, 07:34 PM

They came from the PDF calibration report that Doug Blackburn gave me after he calibrated my PN58A650. His review of the PN50A550 is in the current issue (#133) of Widescreen Review.

These are graphs created by his calibration software from the data logged on the calibration equipment. More graphs of my TV's before and after performance can be found in the PN58A650 owner's thread.

bigdavy

07-23-08, 08:33 PM

Is there access to the CIE chart on the calibration done to the Samsung 650 in the shootout? I'm sure if the calibrated Samsung looks like the second image, there's nothing more to argue about in that regard. Admittedly, I don't fully understand how to read the spreadsheets already posted regarding the calibrations, so maybe the information is all there.

Seems to me that, if the Samsung at the shootout was calibrated to this level of accuracy, any red push or oversaturation of reds in faces was purely imaginary.

I was at the shootout on Saturday. The red push and red faces were definitely not imaginary!

We haven't seen any CIE chart, just the spreadsheets already provided.

However, by working from the spreadsheet, I was able to plot the Samsung's numbers as an overlay to AtomHeart's "after" chart in Photoshop.

In the new image below, which I created manually, the white line and colored circles are from AtomHeart's "after" chart. They represent "perfect primary and secondary colors for HDTV color space." In other words, the white line and colored circles are the DESIRED values in this image. (Note, this is different from AtomHeart's images where the white line is the "actual" reading, especially in the before photos.)

The YELLOW line and WHITE circles are what I added, based on the shootout readings. In other words, the yellow line and white circles resemble the ACTUAL values (based on the spreadsheet).

During the shootout, I think we were told that the spreadsheet displayed "pre-calibration" and "post-calibration" numbers for all the sets that allowed calibration of their color points. Only the LG and Pioneer 111 Elite have "pre" and "post" numbers on the spreadsheet. To me this is an indicator that the Samsung did not get calibration for its color, as other posters have already theorized in the shootout thread after hearing negative comments about the Samsung color.

AtomHeart's CIE chart shows that it is possible to get perfect or near-perfect primary/secondary color accuracy when a Samsung A650's color is calibrated, so the image below may help explain why the Samsung got poor marks for color at the shootout.

- bigdavy

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3250/2697388622_d251dee04a_o.jpg

Darth Cardo

07-23-08, 11:35 PM

AtomHeart

07-24-08, 10:07 AM

Very sorry to everyone for not getting the pictures taken last night...I ended up not having time to do any screenshots. That plotting of the graph for the shoot-out panel over my calibrated panel was VERY helpful. Now we can see why there was oversaturated red in faces pretty clearly. Very revealing about what went down at the shoot-out. Can't say I'm suprised the Samsung didn't make a better showing, given the fact that not a single primary or secondary color was correct (though magenta was close).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3250/2697388622_d251dee04a_o.jpg

I will endeavor to do some screen shots tonight and post them up. I would like to add that my calibration was done entirely in the user menu...no entering of the service menu was needed for grayscale adjustment, luminance, color correction, gamma, etc. Everything needed is totally accessible in the user menu of the Samsung 650. Makes me wonder how many other parameters were not calibrated to their ideal settings.

jvcarig

07-24-08, 10:36 AM

What is interesting is the fact that even with a poorly calibrated set and inferior technical data from testing, the A650 was still either 2nd or 3rd best according to AVS members who went and viewed the shootout. Except for the red push issue, it makes you wonder what all the fuss is about with expert calibration if most people can't even recognize a properly calibrated set vs. a poor one. Plus it now seems possible that the Samsung could have taken first place if properly calibrated causing a serious blow to the Pioneer fans. I think a fair rematch is in order:rolleyes:

Very sorry to everyone for not getting the pictures taken last night...I ended up not having time to do any screenshots. That plotting of the graph for the shoot-out panel over my calibrated panel was VERY helpful. Now we can see why there was oversaturated red in faces pretty clearly. Very revealing about what went down at the shoot-out. Can't say I'm suprised the Samsung didn't make a better showing, given the fact that not a single primary or secondary color was correct (though magenta was close).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3250/2697388622_d251dee04a_o.jpg

I will endeavor to do some screen shots tonight and post them up. I would like to add that my calibration was done entirely in the user menu...no entering of the service menu was needed for grayscale adjustment, luminance, color correction, gamma, etc. Everything needed is totally accessible in the user menu of the Samsung 650.

prepress

07-24-08, 10:51 AM

If anyone's interested, I saw a head-to-head between the Samsung 650 plasma and a Panasonic 85 series plasma online (I tried to type in a link, but it wouldn't take). There's also a review of the 58" 650 which I didn't read.

One thing that stood out to me was the comment about how hot the 650 runs. That may be the heat I felt standing near it and the 111 post-shoot-out (about a foot away).

AtomHeart

07-24-08, 11:10 AM

I've had two 650's because my first one had a defect...the first one ran much hotter than my current one, which I would say runs "warm" at most.

Don't forget these Samsungs also run SILENT. No buzz or hum whatsoever.

D-Nice

07-24-08, 11:55 AM

Plus it now seems possible that the Samsung could have taken first place if properly calibrated causing a serious blow to the Pioneer fans. I think a fair rematch is in order:rolleyes:I don't really see how this could happen. The color points on the 111FD would have been the same as the Samsung. Those color points had zero effect on the other criteria of the shoot-out. All in all, the Samsung would have been tied or in a very close second place regarding color, yet stay in its other ranking spots with other criteria.

jvcarig

07-24-08, 12:27 PM

How would they have had the same color points? If one set was calibrated and one wasn't wouldn't that impact the color points of the 2 sets?

I don't really see how this could happen. The color points on the 111FD would have been the same as the Samsung. Those color points had zero effect on the other criteria of the shoot-out. All in all, the Samsung would have been tied or in a very close second place regarding color, yet stay in its other ranking spots with other criteria.

D-Nice

07-24-08, 12:34 PM

How would they have had the same color points? If one set was calibrated and one wasn't wouldn't that impact the color points of the 2 sets?They all were calibrated. I checked all of them out on Saturday. The CMS menu wasn't used on the Samsung to correct the color points and saturation. However, the grayscale was calibrated and that is a fact.

Again, the Samsung's color rating would have tied or been slightly less than the 111FD. The other aspects of the shoot-out would not have changed.

coltsfreak18

07-24-08, 12:40 PM

They all were calibrated. I checked all of them out on Saturday. The CMS menu wasn't used on the Samsung to correct the color points and saturation. However, the grayscale was calibrated and that is a fact.

Again, the Samsung's color rating would have tied or been slightly less than the 111FD. The other aspects of the shoot-out would not have changed.And could you tell us why the CMS wasn't used on the Samsung? Just wonderin :D

AtomHeart

07-24-08, 12:45 PM

Both the Pioneer Kuros and Samsung displays, good as they are out of the box can be calibrated to achieve extremely low gray scale errors on top of the "perfect" Gamma and accurate primaries and secondaries. The color errors that exist on an "out of the box" Samsung can all be completely fixed with calibration so all 6 primaries and secondaries are essentially perfect to 3 decimal places. It sounds like D-nice is saying the Pioneer Elite can achive that as well. When my Samsung panel was calibrated correctly, and all colors were accurate, the depth, and 3-dimensionality improved, as well as the perceived black level being darkened. This can be seen on the before and after images I linked to earlier. Getting all your colors right, affects a lot more than just color decoder checks.

Pioneers have the edge in black levels. I believe the grayscale on an Pioneer Elite can be calibrated to "perfect" or at least vanishingly low errors. Whether this improvement in grayscale is visible on any content other than test patterns over the slight errors still present in a properly calibrated Samsung is going to be debatable, for sure.

D-Nice

07-24-08, 12:50 PM

And could you tell us why the CMS wasn't used on the Samsung? Just wonderin :DDon't know. I wasn't there for the calibration. However, I do know it was set to Auto. As to why Kevin did not use "Custom" for colorspace is a question only he can answer.

bigdavy

07-24-08, 12:54 PM

guys can anyone post some video shots or stills from this marvelous event? and write a summary? there's tons of information and all the data is very relevant for someone looking to buy a new flat panel! for all of us who could not make it there, please post some still/audio/visual footage of these panels!! :eek: can't wait!

SoSo still has the low-res video of the Friday live feed available at the following URL:
http://www.mogulus.com/soso
You can click on the OnDemand link near the bottom of the player window to play the broadcast from the beginning (looks like it's in 3 sections).

As for writing a summary, many of the attendees have already posted summaries in this thread. Pages 21 through 30 contain many summaries.

petmic10

07-24-08, 12:55 PM

AtomHeart

07-24-08, 01:05 PM

While the images on the Samsung would have improved dramatically in many ways, including depth, and perceived depth of black levels with a more thorough calibration of colors alone, I don't think we need to worry about it having won top honors over a Pioneer Elite 9G. hehe.

jvcarig

07-24-08, 01:09 PM

I'm going to ask a very basic and possibly stupid question but here goes anyway...If these tv's can achieve such great results after being calibrated, why aren't the manufacturers doing this before shipping them out? Wouldn't it make sense to give the customer a product in it's best performing condition out of the box? I would expect there to be many quality checks done on these sets before sending them out so why not make sure the colors are at least accurate? Is that really too much to ask when buying a tv costing $3k+? I understand the need for basic adjustments for personal taste but hearing it can take an expert 4+ hours to calibrate a tv just bothers the heck out of me.

Both the Pioneer Kuros and Samsung displays, good as they are out of the box can be calibrated to achieve extremely low gray scale errors on top of the "perfect" Gamma and accurate primaries and secondaries. The color errors that exist on an "out of the box" Samsung can all be completely fixed with calibration so all 6 primaries and secondaries are essentially perfect to 3 decimal places. It sounds like D-nice is saying the Pioneer Elite can achive that as well. When my Samsung panel was calibrated correctly, and all colors were accurate, the depth, and 3-dimensionality improved, as well as the perceived black level being darkened. This can be seen on the before and after images I linked to earlier. Getting all your colors right, affects a lot more than just color decoder checks.

Pioneers have the edge in black levels. I believe the grayscale on an Pioneer Elite can be calibrated to "perfect" or at least vanishingly low errors. Whether this improvement in grayscale is visible on any content other than test patterns over the slight errors still present in a properly calibrated Samsung is going to be debatable, for sure.

jvcarig

07-24-08, 01:14 PM

I totally agree. I could really care less if it beats the Pioneer or not because the price points for these tvs are in different climates altogether. I was just curious what the comparison would yield, technically and subjectively to viewers, when both sets are calibrated to their best. In the end it doesn't matter to me as my PN58A650 will be in my house in 4 more days:p

While the images on the Samsung would have improved dramatically with a more thorough calibration of colors alone, I don't think we need to worry about it having won top honors over a Pioneer Elite 9G. hehe.

cjm7c

07-24-08, 01:57 PM

jvcarig

07-24-08, 03:08 PM

That makes sense to me and is what kind of bothers me. The manufacturers are pushing the cost of quality control onto consumers. Good for them if they can get away with it I guess.

I think the problem is that these panels vary significantly off the line. That is, each panel has slightly different characteristics and thus requires unique adjustment to achieve perfect color points. Reducing this variation means tightening manufacturing tolerances and thus increasing costs. The TV's controls are there so this variation can be corrected on a set-by-set basis. However, it is too expensive to individually go through and calibrate each display.

eddiscus

07-24-08, 03:47 PM

I think the problem is that these panels vary significantly off the line. That is, each panel has slightly different characteristics and thus requires unique adjustment to achieve perfect color points. Reducing this variation means tightening manufacturing tolerances and thus increasing costs. The TV's controls are there so this variation can be corrected on a set-by-set basis. However, it is too expensive to individually go through and calibrate each display.

That makes sense to me and is what kind of bothers me. The manufacturers are pushing the cost of quality control onto consumers. Good for them if they can get away with it I guess.

It is inevitable that you are going to have unit to unit variability on a mass produced product. If a manufacturer was to do a final adjustment to ISF specification that is all well a good for that panel.

What about the device you connect to that panel?

How close is its tolerance?

Does it meet ISF specification?

When an ISF tech comes to your location not only does he use a pattern generator to calibrate the required inputs to spec but then he rechecks and adjusts the settings to correct for any variability in the connected device.
Something the panel manufacture alone cannot predict. So all manufactures will have to agree on a level of precise tolerance with their products as well as compatibility.
Cost reduction pretty much rules that out.

I am just grateful that some manufactures are still willing to produce precision products with adjust-ability to compensate for wear as well as component variability.

Unfortunately this product commands a higher price.

petmic10

07-24-08, 04:23 PM

I totally agree. I could really care less if it beats the Pioneer or not because the price points for these tvs are in different climates altogether. I was just curious what the comparison would yield, technically and subjectively to viewers, when both sets are calibrated to their best. In the end it doesn't matter to me as my PN58A650 will be in my house in 4 more days:p

And you will be very happy with your purchase because the Samsung
is a fine display that I would be proud to have in my home if I didn't
own a Pioneer(6010).:)

There was something about the Samsung picture that was just
pleasing to look at. Their black levels are still a little behind the
competition, Imo, I would say they compare to 7G Pioneers in terms
of black levels.

coltsfreak18

07-24-08, 05:05 PM

Don't know. I wasn't there for the calibration. However, I do know it was set to Auto. As to why Kevin did not use "Custom" for colorspace is a question only he can answer.BTW, something like atomheart said, but what are the deltaEs on the 111/151 for all IREs?

jvcarig

07-24-08, 08:03 PM

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't realize that there was a need to make adjustments for different devices attached to the tv. I thought once you had the settings you wanted you'd be good to go for everything. I still have a lot to learn obviously with these high tech sets. A lot different than the 11 year old sony CRT I'm replacing. Luckily I have these forums to slowly bring me up to speed.

It is inevitable that you are going to have unit to unit variability on a mass produced product. If a manufacturer was to do a final adjustment to ISF specification that is all well a good for that panel.

What about the device you connect to that panel?

How close is its tolerance?

Does it meet ISF specification?

When an ISF tech comes to your location not only does he use a pattern generator to calibrate the required inputs to spec but then he rechecks and adjusts the settings to correct for any variability in the connected device.
Something the panel manufacture alone cannot predict. So all manufactures will have to agree on a level of precise tolerance with their products as well as compatibility.
Cost reduction pretty much rules that out.

I am just grateful that some manufactures are still willing to produce precision products with adjust-ability to compensate for wear as well as component variability.

Unfortunately this product commands a higher price.

D-Nice

07-25-08, 08:44 AM

BTW, something like atomheart said, but what are the deltaEs on the 111/151 for all IREs?1.3 or less....at it's worst.

AtomHeart

07-25-08, 09:32 AM

8IronBob

07-25-08, 09:57 AM

Here are the post-calibration results of my Samsung 650's IRE deltas:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g318/Jumbaught28/luminance.jpg

You can see an error at 3%, which is no match for the impressive numbers a Pioneer Elite puts out.

Thanks for sharing that. Just wait around for an XBR8 or A950, then recompare things with Kuro Elite, then see which one comes out on top. However, you do have to admit, when it does come to LCDs, tho, S-LCD panels are definitely known to have some of the deepest blacks from any other panel technology out there, as well as best motion. Try finding deeper blacks in an LG panel or Sharp. However, it's still going to be uncertain how that'll compare to the Pio Elite.

Think of it as a virtual boxing match of sorts, you have the S-LCD partnership with Tri-LED backlighting in one corner representing the best of LCD vs. the best of plasma in the Pioneer Kuro line. Which one do you think will deliver the TKO?

av.pallino

07-25-08, 10:12 AM

I don't really see how this could happen. The color points on the 111FD would have been the same as the Samsung. Those color points had zero effect on the other criteria of the shoot-out. All in all, the Samsung would have been tied or in a very close second place regarding color, yet stay in its other ranking spots with other criteria.

I believe one of the maor aspects of this shoot out was that all sets were calibrated to their full extent by the best calibrator available. It now appears that the calibration on at least one set was signifiantly off, which if this were a court of law would throw the validity of this outcome into doubt. All we can say from this shoot out is that the Pio Elite was the best calibrated. And...

Samsung - proven poor calibration AND an incorrect claim by the calibrator that the colors could not be calibrated.
Panny - some say it had a washed out look (again likely due to poor calibration, since other reviewers have never mentioned a washed out look on the new Pannys)
Toshiba - For an LCD viewing angle is critical (yet this shoot out did not factor this). Just from the pictures it looks like almost all participants would be viewing the Toshiba from an angle that would be disadvantageous to that technology.

I write this as someone who loves a Pio Elite and I own both LCD and Plasma. However, I believe that while this shootout was a great a effort by Robert and conducted in all sincerity and honesty there were too many glaring errors in the basic set up to draw any conclusions. When you say things like 'even if the colors.....etc etc' it clearly indicates to me that you too recognize that there were problems with the calibration of the displays.

D-Nice, I have great respect for you and appreciate your love of the Pio plasmas. But this shoot out was essentially about how well an expertly calibrated Pio can look v other displays (which may or may not have been properly calibrated).

I also deeply respect Kevin Miller and my Pio Elite right now is using his TweakTV settings.

Ken Ross

07-25-08, 10:45 AM

I actually think it's pretty easy to draw conclusions regardless of what you thought about the shootout. The conclusion drawn from the shootout and its participants is the SAME conclusion drawn by virtually every other reviewer of the Kuro displays. Everyone finds them the best. Now I guess we can extend this 'mis-calibration' "explanation" to every review ever conducted on a Kuro. Perhaps every reviewer that has reviewed a Kuro has not properly calibrated all sets that have come before. Only the Kuro got properly calibrated.

C'mon guys, this shootout merely confirmed what is known by virtually any objective video enthusiast, the Kuro comes out on top. If the shootout result ran contrary to most other professional reviews, I could see reason for skepticism. However, when it simply adds another datapoint to the already numerous datapoints, it's time to stop looking for excuses.

easycruise

07-25-08, 11:23 AM

D-Nice

07-25-08, 11:29 AM

I believe one of the maor aspects of this shoot out was that all sets were calibrated to their full extent by the best calibrator available. It now appears that the calibration on at least one set was signifiantly off, which if this were a court of law would throw the validity of this outcome into doubt. All we can say from this shoot out is that the Pio Elite was the best calibrated. And...

Samsung - proven poor calibration AND an incorrect claim by the calibrator that the colors could not be calibrated.
Panny - some say it had a washed out look (again likely due to poor calibration, since other reviewers have never mentioned a washed out look on the new Pannys)
Toshiba - For an LCD viewing angle is critical (yet this shoot out did not factor this). Just from the pictures it looks like almost all participants would be viewing the Toshiba from an angle that would be disadvantageous to that technology.

I write this as someone who loves a Pio Elite and I own both LCD and Plasma. However, I believe that while this shootout was a great a effort by Robert and conducted in all sincerity and honesty there were too many glaring errors in the basic set up to draw any conclusions. When you say things like 'even if the colors.....etc etc' it clearly indicates to me that you too recognize that there were problems with the calibration of the displays.

D-Nice, I have great respect for you and appreciate your love of the Pio plasmas. But this shoot out was essentially about how well an expertly calibrated Pio can look v other displays (which may or may not have been properly calibrated).

I also deeply respect Kevin Miller and my Pio Elite right now is using his TweakTV settings.Ok, this entire post is insulting to Kevin Miller, Robert, and even myself. If you find anything about that shoot-out "suspect', how about you pony up your own shoot-out. Better yet, I challenge ANY member, calibrator, sponsor, and/or CE manufacturer to conduct their own shoot-out. I promise you the overall results will NOT change.

D-Nice

07-25-08, 11:36 AM

I find it ironic that the AVS forum people are thought of as discerning videophiles, yet when we use that expertise to criticize a poorly designed shootout put on by AVS'ers, we are then slammed for being ungrateful traitors to "the community".I find it ironic that the same people who applauded Robert for volunteering himself and his resources for such an event of which NO OTHER sponsor, calibrator, AVS member, and or CE manufacturer had the balls to do all of a sudden claim that it was "fixed", "rigged", "marketing ploy", blah, blah, blah.

You don't agree with the result, that’s cool. Pony up your own shoot-out and/or provided proof that this even was rigged. Let's see how many people will speak up over the crickets.

E-A-G-L-E-S

07-25-08, 11:42 AM

. Plus it now seems possible that the Samsung could have taken first place if properly calibrated causing a serious blow to the Pioneer fans. I think a fair rematch is in order:rolleyes:

Not with those black levels or dithering. Nor the lower contrast.
still a very good set....too bad the black level is almost greyish.

E-A-G-L-E-S

07-25-08, 11:44 AM

Aetherhole

07-25-08, 11:47 AM

I really think that the Pioneer(s) speak for themselves. If it seemed to be a pioneer biased shoot-out, then I think it's because of that fact. ALL the televisions were calibrated. How can you imply that such a reputable person like Kevin Miller decide he wants calibrate one set better than the other? I think D-Nice is right to feel insulted.

To call it a poorly designed shootout is even further insulting. I don't necessarily take offense because I was watching it on the internet, but I find it hard to fathom that one would say that.

The AVSers that went to the shootout ALLLLLLLLLLLL came with the same result of the Pioneer 111 on top. Were they forced into saying that? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Don't think for one second that they were swayed into saying that just because there were more Pioneer sets. In fact, wouldn't that put it in a more difficult position? I would think the odds would be more against them because they have more sets there. But, that notwithstanding, even if it were the 111 alone with the rest of the rest of the companies, the AVSers would've reported that it came out on top. If the 111 wasn't there, then it would've been a close raise between the Samsung and the 5010 (given the feedback that the people in attendance said).

coltsfreak18

07-25-08, 12:36 PM

1.3 or less....at it's worst.Wow... That is unbelievably accurate. I always thought below 10 was good.

D-Nice

07-25-08, 12:47 PM

Wow... That is unbelievably accurate. I always thought below 10 was good.No, anything below 3 is excellent and anything below 4 is good.

eddiscus

07-25-08, 12:50 PM

I was there on Friday and spent a little while after the shootout looking at the 111 and samsung. There was the pioneer demo footage running. There was a scene where a woman in a red dress was floating across the screen against a black background.

On the samsung you could see the processor was having trouble keeping up with the detail as the dress waved. The pioneer much much smoother. So leaving out the possible color correction gain that may have been achieved by CMS adjustment. The samsung lost out to the pioneer due to processor capability and black level.

Not that the people who put on and were involved in the shootout need defending but those posting negative comments have no clue.

You have Robert the store owner who basically shut his store down to the everyday customer for 3 days, blacked out his store windows and mounted 6 displays on one wall. Connected all this to a Blue Ray Player and receiver. Output this through an HDMI distribution switch and had it all function. All for the love of a hobby.

Then you ask Kevin Miller to come in and calibrate 6 displays as best as possible and supply some level of reports and findings when complete. Just getting 6 displays as close as he did in 10 hours is a testament to his ability.

Not to mention D-Nice driving the distance he did to share his opinions and Knowledge.

SoSo for stepping up to the plate and running the IP feed.

I am sorry if I may be leaving others out that I did not get a chance to thank, that had something to do with the event behind the scenes.

I for one hope Robert does not pay too much attention to the negative posts.

I would also like to offer Robert my time to assist him in any way possible if he decided to put on another event.:D

petmic10

07-25-08, 12:53 PM

markrubin

07-25-08, 01:01 PM

^^^

+2

Ken Ross

07-25-08, 01:43 PM

^^^^

+3

markrubin

07-25-08, 01:56 PM

ercc

07-25-08, 02:22 PM

Ok, this entire post is insulting to Kevin Miller, Robert, and even myself. If you find anything about that shoot-out "suspect', how about you pony up your own shoot-out. Better yet, I challenge ANY member, calibrator, sponsor, and/or CE manufacturer to conduct their own shoot-out. I promise you the overall results will NOT change.

I find it ironic that the same people who applauded Robert for volunteering himself and his resources for such an event where NO OTHER sponsor, calibrator, AVS member, and or CE manufacturer has the balls to do all of a sudden claim that it was "fixed", "rigged", "marketing ploy", blah, blah, blah.

You don't agree with the result, that’s cool. Pony up your own shoot-out and/or provided proof that this even was rigged. Let's see how many people will speak up over the crickets.

Definitive posts right here.

On these forums we can discuss and debate products endlessly, but when members begin to blatantly attack other people and their reputation with baseless comments that is a huge problem. Because not one of these posters actually attended the event, they merely formed these opinions based on 'facts' they grabbed out of thin air, or their own misguided loyalties. They didn't come here to help; rather they came to distract from meaningful discussion among attendees and people wishing to hear from the attendees. In short, they offer nothing and expect everyone to listen to them. Meanwhile the people who spent countless hours working on this event and sharing results with the community get their reputation called in to question. A real shame.

Maybe on a lesser forum this would be acceptable, but luckily there are standards here, and many people do not tolerate these attacks against individuals.

kyungkim

07-25-08, 02:37 PM

I find it ironic that the AVS forum people are thought of as discerning videophiles, yet when we use that expertise to criticize a poorly designed shootout put on by AVS'ers, we are then slammed for being ungrateful traitors to "the community".

Think about what that word means, community. The key here is that organizers and the participants ARE members of this community.

There seems to be this feeling that this was some flim flam event put on by an interloping outsider...

You wanna know who was involved in this event, go look in the mirror.
The people involved were a cross section of av enthusiast, no different from from yourself. All avsforum members. The members were not hand picked, if you wanted to come you could come.

For anyone complaining it was too far away, if you live closer to NY than Pittsburgh, your argument is moot since members drove from that far away to come.

Granted the principals have more av knowledge and experience than we will ever come close to. I simply dont understand the blood in the water mentality of everyone trashing the event.

But those of you insinuating everything was bogus and everyone had an agenda etc, all you are doing is sh1tting on yourself.

If you can't trust this community for truthful evaluations, what you are saying is bullsh1t as well?

fwiw, I had a few cringe inducing moments during the event and I will outline my own criticisms, but none of it is related to the truthfulness or competency of the organizers.

av.pallino

07-25-08, 02:48 PM

Ok, this entire post is insulting to Kevin Miller, Robert, and even myself. If you find anything about that shoot-out "suspect', how about you pony up your own shoot-out. Better yet, I challenge ANY member, calibrator, sponsor, and/or CE manufacturer to conduct their own shoot-out. I promise you the overall results will NOT change.

While, you may feel insulted (and in the spirit of challenge the post and not the poster), that is not what was said in my post. I never implied that there was deliberate falsification or staging of a shoot out result. That was not the point at all. I was point out to the following facts:

1. Samsung was not calibrated to the best it could have been (so, if this is true then one cannot say that all displays were calibrated to their best potential - as was widely claimed).

2. We had a LCD which (even if calibrated properly) was certainly effected more adversely when compared to the plasmas due to sub optimal viewing angle (unless viewing angle was used as a parameter for this test)

I'd love to be corrected on what I said that was wrong in either post. The fallacy here is that anyone who disagrees with the shoot out or has issues with it (given that this is AVS Forum) must conduct their own shoot out or shut up makes no sense to me!

There are no holy cows on this forum (as far as I know) :)

av.pallino

07-25-08, 02:52 PM

Think about what that word means, community. The key here is that organizers and the participants ARE members of this community.

There seems to be this feeling that this was some flim flam event put on by an interloping outsider...

You wanna know who was involved in this event, go look in the mirror.
The people involved were a cross section of av enthusiast, no different from from yourself. All avsforum members. The members were not hand picked, if you wanted to come you could come.

For anyone complaining it was too far away, if you live closer to NY than Pittsburgh, your argument is moot since members drove from that far away to come.

Granted the principals have more av knowledge and experience than we will ever come close to. I simply dont understand the blood in the water mentality of everyone trashing the event.

But those of you insinuating everything was bogus and everyone had an agenda etc, all you are doing is sh1tting on yourself.

If you can't trust this community for truthful evaluations, what you are saying is bullsh1t as well?

fwiw, I had a few cringe inducing moments during the event and I will outline my own criticisms, but none of it is related to the truthfulness or competency of the organizers.

Pointing out potential issues is not trashing the event. In any field of science when you put out the results to the public you have to accept scrutiny. You have to examine the facts and those you did the experiment must be willing to explain what they did. That is basically how it is done :)

av.pallino

07-25-08, 03:05 PM

I conducted my own shootout several years ago: dubbed the 'Jersey Shore Shootout', I compared a Pioneer Pro1000HD and a Fujitsu 50" plasma: it is in the archives somewhere from 2002 or so

I brought in Cliff Plavin (Progressive Labs) to ISF calibrate each display, and then invited AVS members to see the displays for themselves at my home

Ken Ross (a video pro) attended the calibration sessions and gave me a lot of guidance: Ken helped me appreciate the importance of black levels and Cliff showed me how to calibrate displays

We had an issue where the Pioneer calibrated settings had not been saved properly and there was some concern if both displays were properly set

several AVS members viewed the displays (at different times) and all came to the same conclusions that the Fujitsu was the clear winner

My point is that no shootout will be perfect: they will always be criticized for not coming to the same conclusions that others may see: as D Nice said: if you feel this event was biased or the results were unfair, try conducting your own shootout, and please do post the event details here on AVS

I would challenge any member or group to conduct a shootout that approaches the scope and cost of what was done here

I totally agree with you. When you conduct an experiment (and that is what shoot outs are), people will have questions about how the experiment was done. There is no need to be offended if people who do not agree express their views. Not everyone has the resources to pull off such an event.

Today I read an article where a cancer researcher said that using cell phone causes cancer. I am sure people will ask him for his research and how he came to that conclusion. But if his response is - if you don't agree with me, I am offended so go conduct your own experiment. People won't take him seriously!

For some, based on their analysis of the information it may appear that not all displays were shown in their best form. Now to argue that even IF they were shown in their best form the results would not have changed is besides the point! One of the key aspects of this shoot out as I recall was the fact that all displays were calibrated to their best potential.

Anyway...I guess I made more than the point I wanted to :eek:

kyungkim

07-25-08, 03:09 PM

While, you may feel insulted (and in the spirit of challenge the post and not the poster), that is not what was said in my post. I never implied that there was deliberate falsification or staging of a shoot out result. That was not the point at all. I was point out to the following facts:

1. Samsung was not calibrated to the best it could have been (so, if this is true then one cannot say that all displays were calibrated to their best potential - as was widely claimed).

2. We had a LCD which (even if calibrated properly) was certainly effected more adversely when compared to the plasmas due to sub optimal viewing angle (unless viewing angle was used as a parameter for this test)

I'd love to be corrected on what I said that was wrong in either post. The fallacy here is that anyone who disagrees with the shoot out or has issues with it (given that this is AVS Forum) must conduct their own shoot out or shut up makes no sense to me!

There are no holy cows on this forum (as far as I know) :)

1. Neither was the pioneer 5010. Both clearly was stated on the handout sheet that, after adjustment they pushed red. IMHO, whether or not accurate color can be dialed in on the sammie from just user controls is still up for debate. (Having owned 3 sammie tvs, i doubt this myself, but anything is possible on the newer models I guess)

2. The off axis viewing issue was stated several times throughout the event. For critical viewing the lcd was actually turned off. Next year the plans are to relegate this to plasmas only.

I believe there is a holy cow on this board, its respect. Without it there is nothing. If I dont respect what you write or anyone else, whats the point of posting anything, spending time in evaluation sessions etc.

av.pallino

07-25-08, 03:32 PM

1. Neither was the pioneer 5010. Both clearly was stated on the handout sheet that, after adjustment they pushed red. IMHO, whether or not accurate color can be dialed in on the sammie from just user controls is still up for debate. (Having owned 3 sammie tvs, i doubt this myself, but anything is possible on the newer models I guess)

2. The off axis viewing issue was stated several times throughout the event. For critical viewing the lcd was actually turned off. Next year the plans are to relegate this to plasmas only.

I believe there is a holy cow on this board, its respect. Without it there is nothing. If I dont respect what you write or anyone else, whats the point of posting anything, spending time in evaluation sessions etc.

1. I believe it has been stated on this thread that others have been able to calibrate the Sammy model in this review to be more accurate.

2. Thanks for telling me that the off axis viewing was mentioned (which makes me wonder, why even have it when that is a well known flaw with that type of display - an LCD cannot look it's best when it is off angle). So, from next year this will be a plasma shoot out?

Respect is mutual. When it's science you have to be able to answer questions about your experiment - even IF it seems obvious. The idea is that next year's shoot out will be even better. For instance:

1. It was stated that the 5010 was part of the shoot out to show progression in technology. Well, if that is the case, then why not use the Elite PRO 110FD v. Elite PRO 111FD to show progression - Apples to Apples.

2. Why not have the non Elite Pio in the mix. After all, to most when you have Pannys, Samsungs, LG and Toshiba - the most likely competition is the 5020. It raises the question, does the lack of picture controls on the 5020 make it more difficult to use in such a shoot out.

It is clearly Roberts perogative what he wants to do and how he does it. But as a forum member (someone who even owns a Pioneer Elite) I can raise points that I feel are valid. Not because I feel he is being deliberately biased, but because he may not have thought about something till someone brings it up. I believe he even went to the extent of matching hdmi cable brands!

When you conduct an experiment the set up is critical. We are all human and here are many variables. We cannot control all the variables, but the most important ones should be accounted for. I have no doubt that those who participated had a great time :)

prepress

07-25-08, 03:33 PM

av.pallino

07-25-08, 03:36 PM

I believe there is a holy cow on this board, its respect. Without it there is nothing. If I dont respect what you write or anyone else, whats the point of posting anything, spending time in evaluation sessions etc.

I would say - 'respect for the pursuit of truth' is the holy cow. Without it, there is nothing. I try not to be a fan boy of products that I own. I simply own and enjoy them and post based on my experience :)

av.pallino

07-25-08, 03:44 PM

Definitive posts right here.

On these forums we can discuss and debate products endlessly, but when members begin to blatantly attack other people and their reputation with baseless comments that is a huge problem. Because not one of these posters actually attended the event, they merely formed these opinions based on 'facts' they grabbed out of thin air, or their own misguided loyalties. They didn't come here to help; rather they came to distract from meaningful discussion among attendees and people wishing to hear from the attendees. In short, they offer nothing and expect everyone to listen to them. Meanwhile the people who spent countless hours working on this event and sharing results with the community get their reputation called in to question. A real shame.

Maybe on a lesser forum this would be acceptable, but luckily there are standards here, and many people do not tolerate these attacks against individuals.

Guess what. disagreeing with someone is not an attack on their reputation. If that were the case, science would never progress because there would be a continous attack on (good) peoples reputations and we'd still be popping Mercury pills to live longer!

mbraat

07-25-08, 04:07 PM

I attended the flat panel shoot-out at Value electronics and had a great time . It was an opportunity that does not come around often. I learned a great deal from Kevin Miller and d-nice. Robert and wendy were wonderful hosts and I have the utmost confidence that everything was above board. There was a special promotion offered that evening which was good for one week. I was ready to purchase, but no orders were writen that night. I left my contact info, but no one got in touch with me. I called twice yesterday and spoke with wendy and she assured me they would email me over a quote. I received nothing. Is there something going on that i am unaware of? I think at this point i will wait a few months to purchase. With the way the economy is going it will be difficult to sell a $5k panel and i suspect the cost will come down. I am disappointed because I thought I would be burning in my new set by now.

av.pallino

07-25-08, 04:26 PM

I really think that the Pioneer(s) speak for themselves. If it seemed to be a pioneer biased shoot-out, then I think it's because of that fact. ALL the televisions were calibrated. How can you imply that such a reputable person like Kevin Miller decide he wants calibrate one set better than the other? I think D-Nice is right to feel insulted.
and the 5010 (given the feedback that the people in attendance said).

No one even implied that he 'wanted' to calibrate one set better than the other. Just that one set was not calibrated to it's best potential. There is a huge difference in what you are saying here, v. what actually was posted by me and others who recognized that not all sets were calibrated to their best potential. This has nothing to do with:

1. That even IF all sets were properly calibrated the Elite would STILL be on top.

2. That ALL people at the shoot out preferred the Elite and would have preferred it even IF all the displays were at their best

3. That Kevin Miller is the greatest calibrator out there.

I love the fact that such great people were involved in this shoot out. But if I were to write a review of this shoot out, it would be my duty to point out questions I may have. The fact that I have questions do not mean I am questioning the integrity of the people. As Mark himself said - no shoot out is perfect. The is just a fact of life. As people on a science forum, your duty is to analyze the information. What am I missing here? hero worship :confused:

ercc

07-25-08, 04:53 PM

Pointing out potential issues is not trashing the event. In any field of science when you put out the results to the public you have to accept scrutiny. You have to examine the facts and those you did the experiment must be willing to explain what they did. That is basically how it is done :)

The problem with the pretty ridiculous statements people are saying is that they are trying to make their point (derived merely from sitting at their computer thinking about it) as the valid argument. They are therefore attacking the validity of the numerous statements made about the shootout from its organizers and attendees, as these negative posts fly in the face of everything the people involved with the event are saying.

So in essence, these armchair quaterbacks are completley marginalizing the real results and posts written by people trying to report on the event by trying to cast everything being said as some big conspiracy, even though they have nothing to back this up

Furthermore, when these allegations are made against people here with some pretty stellar reputations, that is pretty serious. If the allegations are not corroborated, then they are slanderous in nature. These people should of course go run their own shootout and open themselves up for the same critisism they have levelled against innocent parties who were merely being enthusiastic and trying to help people.

8IronBob

07-25-08, 04:59 PM

Not with those black levels or dithering. Nor the lower contrast.
still a very good set....too bad the black level is almost greyish.

Yes, but despite all that, it's pretty much the best in the LCD TVs that you can have right now. At least affordably. I don't justify spending $5000 - $7000 on an XBR8 or Kuro Elite, I'm sorry.

av.pallino

07-25-08, 05:25 PM

The problem with the pretty ridiculous statements people are saying is that they are trying to make their point (derived merely from sitting at their computer thinking about it) as the valid argument. They are therefore attacking the validity of the numerous statements made about the shootout from its organizers and attendees, as these negative posts fly in the face of everything the people involved with the event are saying.

So in essence, these armchair quaterbacks are completley marginalizing the real results and posts written by people trying to report on the event by trying to cast everything being said as some big conspiracy, even though they have nothing to back this up

Furthermore, when these allegations are made against people here with some pretty stellar reputations, that is pretty serious. If the allegations are not corroborated, then they are slanderous in nature. These people should of course go run their own shootout and open themselves up for the same critisism they have levelled against innocent parties who were merely being enthusiastic and trying to help people.

Hopefully, this real life experience in my life will shed light on this. Recently, I was part of a Global Climate Control research project. What it reequired was to analyze data from various GCC TEMS (Terrestrial Environmental Monitoring Stations) sites around the world. What most people did was to take the data from these stations and start plotting it to start seeing trends. However, what I did was to first compare changes in monitoring stations around the world (I found that while the number of monitoring stations were pretty much the same in the last 20 years, that there were fewer stations in colder climates and more in the warmer zones). I also found several monitoring stations that were previously in rural areas now (as a result of urban growth) in uban areas. So, I pointed out to the folks that we need to factor in changes in locations of monitoring stations and other factors not related to global warming. The point is that, pointing these out did not mean that I did not believe that global warming was taking place, or that there was a conspiracy to show global warming. But rather to ensure the best measurement of global warming.

That is how science works. My colleagues who worked on that project included some of the most respected researchers but they did not throw a fit saying I way insulting the theory of global warming etc. In fact most appreciated the fact that someone had found something that if not factored would bias the results (unknowingly).

The above is a simplification of a real life event that I was a part of recently and is the closest analogy that I could come up with :D