We're having our 2nd flat panel shoot-out at our store in Scarsdale, NY. This event will include only the very latest flagship products from the major CE manufacturers. We'll have product management, engineers and product specialists as well as some very special guests attending and presenting at the event.

I was able to get Pioneer to commit to supply their Elite PRO-111FD for the event even if the product is not shipped to stores at that time. We're clearing out all current models so our showroom will only display the next generation from the CE industry.

I would like to have two AVS Forum special presentations one on Friday at 7:00 PM and one on Saturday at 11:00 AM. Seating is limited to 21 per AVS presentation event. Good food, drinks and the very best a/v available.

Sign up today by emailing me here. (rzohn@*********************) and in the subject line telling me the date/time you want to attend.

-Robert

---ADMIN NOTE---

NOTICE TO ALL

This is in NO WAY an AVS Forum event. AVS Forum did not give the permission to use our name or site for promotion of a retail store event. AVS Forum does not get involved in "shootouts" or the like based on how the outcomes are viewed.

As you can already see in this thread, the speculation of the outcome had started long ago. It is plain to see the issue such events can make for and why AVS Forum can not be part of it. AVS Forum as a company remains neutral on such topics.

Value Electronics runs ad on this site for marketing and is not connected to AVS Forum in any other way.

Should be a very nice event!

Chris

Robert,
If the elites have not been released by then, Is there any way you could give me the PRO-111FD when the shoot-out is over???:D:D:D
I would be willing to Tatoo "KURO" on my head and advertise for you!!:D:D

Wow, I'm so glad this is happening. For those on the fence, let me tell you Robert knows how to throw a shoot-out! I went to an LCD shoot-out he did - and learned a LOT. And ate good food and had fun.

A couple of us were PMing about having a group go up together from NYC. Maybe we could do lunch afterward or something. For me, that would have to be Saturday as I'm not available Friday night. If any New Yorkers are interested in having some kind of group meet in conjunction with the event, e-mail Robert and send a PM to me.

Nice going Bob. Just wish I could be there but I'm over 2000 miles away.
I hope my Sammies get good representation :cool:

Robert, I just got this message from "Postmaster":
User mailbox exceeds allowed size: rzohn@mail.*********************

which is pretty funny since all I said was "Sign me up for Saturday!"

Can I sign up through this thread?

Cr@p! This is what I get for moving out of Mount Pleasant 14 years ago!

Robert,
Will you have any pz850 at the event?

Do you smell another Pioneer victory?

Hey Robert I just send you an email.:)


Djoel

Robert,
Will you have any pz850 at the event?

Yes, I plan on it. Anyone else have any recommendations on panels you want to see.

-Robert

I'd also love to see the top Samsung and top LG models. It seems that these are the comparisons discussed here most. I would love to see the 5020, answering once and for all how much better a callibrated elite is over a callibrated non-elite. I assume they're getting a rough callibration of some sort; right? If that was too many, I'd personally prefer the 5020 to the LG. I suppose there's no way to get a Signature by July; right?

Yes, I plan on it. Anyone else have any recommendations on panels you want to see.

-Robert

I unfortunately will not be able to make it but I would like see reviews of the new Lg models as well from experienced AVSers.

LG's PG7000 plasma claims infinite contrast? I'd like to see that.

I also can't wait to see Mitsubishi's LazerVUE.

LG's PG7000 plasma claims infinite contrast? I'd like to see that.

I also can't wait to see Mitsubishi's LazerVUE.

Me too!!!

Hm...the Saturday morning one is tempting. Only a 1.5 hour drive. Would be making the trip alone, though :(. Should be fun to meet all of you!

How bout an 8G(if you have them) and also a 20 series? That way you could show the differences between the elites and non-elites.

Unfortunately I'm too far away or I'd like to come.

Hm...the Saturday morning one is tempting. Only a 1.5 hour drive. Would be making the trip alone, though :(. Should be fun to meet all of you!

Where are you? I am in eastern PA, ~90 minutes away as well, so maybe we could carpool?

Where are you? I am in eastern PA, ~90 minutes away as well, so maybe we could carpool?

Coming from central Jersey. I'm not sure if eastern PA is on the way, I have the feeling its not :(.

Unless Clinton or Bridgewater is on your way? As it is on my way to Scarsdale.

Bridgewater is about 30 minutes out of the way, but I don't mind meeting up there and carpooling for the rest.

PM incoming.

I will be there :)

I will be there :)

I'm way too far away in Palo Alto, CA so I look forward to reading everyone's comments.

Robert, maybe you should do it like a wine tasting -- double-blind with the bezels hidden behind brown paper wrapping. You could then ask everyone to grade each panel 0 to 5 based on several different intereasting qualities (black level, color accuracy, etc.) :-)

have a great time!

Casey

I'd also love to see the top Samsung and top LG models. It seems that these are the comparisons discussed here most. I would love to see the 5020, answering once and for all how much better a callibrated elite is over a callibrated non-elite. I assume they're getting a rough callibration of some sort; right? If that was too many, I'd personally prefer the 5020 to the LG. I suppose there's no way to get a Signature by July; right?

I unfortunately will not be able to make it but I would like see reviews of the new Lg models as well from experienced AVSers.

LG's PG7000 plasma claims infinite contrast? I'd like to see that.

Consider it done. Ask/tell me more, anyone else have a product wish list panel they want to see at the shoot-out. We're limited to 4 panels on one wall and more if we need it.

-Robert

Robert,

If I was not all the way up here in Washington I would be there. Show off that LG 7000 for me. I want to know if it will live up to the hype.

Consider it done. Ask/tell me more, anyone else have a product wish list panel they want to see at the shoot-out. We're limited to 4 panels on one wall and more if we need it.

-Robert

Panasonic 50PZ850
LG 50PG7000
Elite PRO-111
PDP-5020
Samsung 50A650

Looks like everyone mentioned all of these, and that's all I can think of :). Can't wait.

how about a 50ph10uka (or pf)

Hey y'all. Some of us are coming up from NY City on Saturday. We're going to have lunch in Scarsdale after the event. Now that I see that there will be AVS'ers from much further afield there, let's open the event to any AVSer who wants to come. Robert says there's a very nice restaraunt/pub close to the store that will probably set us up a private room if there's enough of us. Robert should be joining us as well. If anybody else wants in, send me a PM. I'll make the reservation. I'm looking forward to meeting you - and of course, to the shoot-out.

Sounds like fun!!! Make sure someone takes lots of pics and posts them, so those of us who can't make it may live vicariously thru the photos.:)

Consider it done. Ask/tell me more, anyone else have a product wish list panel they want to see at the shoot-out. We're limited to 4 panels on one wall and more if we need it.

-Robert

.. will you have a live-feed like the LCD shootout? w/ commentary?

how 'bout the Vizio vp-604f. :D

Panasonic 50PZ850
LG 50PG7000
Elite PRO-111
PDP-5020
Samsung 50A650

Looks like everyone mentioned all of these, and that's all I can think of :). Can't wait.

Will the LG 50PG7000 be available by 7/18?

-Robert

Anyone in suburban Philly want to carpool, let me know. I will be there on the 19th.

Anyone in suburban Philly want to carpool, let me know. I will be there on the 19th.

You want to swing by Seattle and pick me up.

Consider it done. Ask/tell me more, anyone else have a product wish list panel they want to see at the shoot-out. We're limited to 4 panels on one wall and more if we need it.

-Robert

I would like to see an LCD thrown into the mix for comparison sake. I think the Samsung 81 series LCD would be a good choice.

I would like to see an LCD thrown into the mix for comparison sake. I think the Samsung 81 series LCD would be a good choice.

I will be coming to the shootout on the 18th. Looking forward to it.

Anyone from central NY? Would love to rideshare.

-Scott

I would like to see an LCD thrown into the mix for comparison sake. I think the Samsung 81 series LCD would be a good choice.

I agree, but I'd also throw in a XBR4. The 81-series is one of the only LCD's that has a highly reflective screen, which is not considered "normal" of an LCD. Having them both there, as well as the latest Sharp D94 or even the 52A650, would be very interesting.

You want to swing by Seattle and pick me up.

Sure, I will have Harrison Ford fly over and get you!

Just heard, Pioneer is sending a PDP engineer from Japan, PDP specialist, a national trainer and the regional manager to our shoot-out so four Pioneer Elite specialists will be here to present and answer ANY and ALL questions. Many more special guests attending so this will be a premier event.

And thanks to JWhip for sending Mr. Ford to p/u Alex, but sorry Alex I do not intend on sharing any customers with you.

-Robert

Just heard, Pioneer is sending a PDP engineer from Japan, PDP specialist, a national trainer and the regional manager to our shoot-out so four Pioneer Elite specialists will be here to present and answer ANY and ALL questions. Many more special guests attending so this will be a premier event.

-Robert

:eek:! I'm even more excited then I was before!

Just heard, Pioneer is sending a PDP engineer from Japan, PDP specialist, a national trainer and the regional manager to our shoot-out so four Pioneer Elite specialists will be here to present and answer ANY and ALL questions. Many more special guests attending so this will be a premier event.

And thanks to JWhip for sending Mr. Ford to p/u Alex, but sorry Alex I do not intend on sharing any customers with you.

-Robert

Damn, Robert you're the man!

Can you please include Vidikron?

.. Robert, I take it from your non-response to my earlier question regarding some sort of visuals, either thru pic's or live-feed, that you will 'not' be sharing anything for the AVS board members to exchange input on. This was done during your LCD shoot-out last Fall & many enjoyed the highlights from that show. :)

Will the LG 50PG7000 be available by 7/18?

-Robert

I don't think this model has even been confirmed in NA.

Robert, any shot of comparing a Pro 150 with a Pro 151? I'd love to see the improvement from the 8g to 9g! If so I'd love to attend.

Robert, any shot of comparing a Pro 150 with a Pro 151? I'd love to see the improvement from the 8g to 9g! If so I'd love to attend.Just bring yours to the party :)

Just bring yours to the party :)

No prob, I'll bring the 150 and the 950. :D

Anyone want to volunteer to help set up an IP cast or would Skype work OK? I have a static IP address.

-Robert

Hey Robert! I don't know if there would be an opportunity to have the Pioneer folks talk and show about the possible integration with the new Pio blu-ray player and receiver. Probably, it's a little too off topic in a plasma shoot-out. But I bet there would be a lot of folks interested in learning more about that.

Wow! Can this shoot out get any more exciting!:eek:


DJoel

Panasonic 50PZ850
LG 50PG7000
Elite PRO-111
PDP-5020
Samsung 50A650

Looks like everyone mentioned all of these, and that's all I can think of :). Can't wait.

It would be nice to see the Panasonic 50PZ800U in comparison to the PDP-5020 since some are saying that the (THX cert) panny would have more accurate color than the non-elite 5020 and so seeing how the color capabilities compare in the shootout would be great.

The PZ850 has the 120% gamut Digital Cinema Color (DCC) (and hence NO THX cert apparently) so it may not be an appropriate comparision...

I must say this shoot-out is looking very good :)

I would throw a CRT in there for good measure; something with really great blacks, like a Panasonic (as Sony's tend to glow an almost unrecognizable, but yet visible glow compared to shadow mask based HD CRT's). Back to plasma, I am most interested in LG's new PG7000, they will be getting my money this year if they can truly pull off 0 idling luminance.

:mad: Why in the name of Christ do I live in Europe ?? :mad::mad:

What better rationale do you need to move? :D

:mad: Why in the name of Christ do I live in Europe ?? :mad::mad:

Gas is cheaper here.. for now :) Just another reason to move

I would throw a CRT in there for good measure; something with really great blacks, like a Panasonic (as Sony's tend to glow an almost unrecognizable, but yet visible glow compared to shadow mask based HD CRT's). Back to plasma, I am most interested in LG's new PG7000, they will be getting my money this year if they can truly pull off 0 idling luminance.

I've got an old Panny CRT (2005) and the blacks are incredible, the TV looks off in dark room with a full black screen. The afterglow was a big disadvantage since blacks were easily lightened when anything bright was near them. Once TVs can achieve that kind of black level with the clarity and sharpness of todays TVs I'll be in HT heaven.

robert i too am in california just like leedom so i cannot do this i had a trip to north carolina but budget isnt so great so i cant afford to spend 1g to make a round trip, that being i would love to know if you will post information of the PRO-111FD?



I'm way too far away in Palo Alto, CA so I look forward to reading everyone's comments.

Robert, maybe you should do it like a wine tasting -- double-blind with the bezels hidden behind brown paper wrapping. You could then ask everyone to grade each panel 0 to 5 based on several different intereasting qualities (black level, color accuracy, etc.) :-)

have a great time!

Casey

soloist i think any crt that would be a good seller are done they are over no more...

I would throw a CRT in there for good measure; something with really great blacks, like a Panasonic (as Sony's tend to glow an almost unrecognizable, but yet visible glow compared to shadow mask based HD CRT's). Back to plasma, I am most interested in LG's new PG7000, they will be getting my money this year if they can truly pull off 0 idling luminance.

Any one care to be the "official" AVS reporter and do a complete write up of the events for those of us who can't make it? Obviously personal taste has a lot to do with what panels people like better, but being able to see them all side by side and not in a B&M is fantastic. A report of strengths and weaknesses of each one when directly compared would be fantastic.........wait it just hit me, to go along with the report how about a live webcam or something? Obviously the quality will not come thru the webcam but if there will be presentations, that could be very helpfull to listen to people discuss the panels.

Anyways just ideas, regardless of if any of this can be done, im sure it will be a great event for those that get to attend.

I just updated my AVS Forum/Kuro page with new photos and included a link to Pioneer's video with famous Cinematographers, sound mixers and colorists. Very cool commentaries and stories from well know movie makers. Pioneer had an unabridged version they showed us at the Elite dealer road show and I am trying to get a copy for our AVS Forum shoot-out event next month.

Take a look here. (http://www.*********************/avstc.htm)

-Robert

robert looks like im one step ahead of you i already saw that video, for uneducated people they simply say its advertising but for those who know its not true :D

btw i didnt knew you had warehouse's besides NY I reside in california sometimes i go to vegas for house vacation, but its not enough to be considerd 250 miles for an elite sale?

i might have to ask a friend in bestbuy to buy it at his cost if i cant find a good price on the PRO-111FD

no more off topic if you wish a pm would be nice :D

This plasma shootout seems interesting. I've already decided upon the new Pioneer PDP-5020 (tentatively) but a lot could happen between now and October, when I plan to get it. The results of this comparison and the observations of the more experienced people on this forum should be instructive. My research for a new TV has become a running gag with my Sunday school class (I teach one, adult level) and so to not buy anything by year's end will be an embarrassment.

I don't have a home theater per se, but a conventional stereo setup to which I'll be adding a TV. I'll want to check in to see everyone's take on the plasmas in question, and perhaps gain insight on which one may work best with legacy equipment (Pioneer DVL-91 and Marantz DV-8400). My big thing is processing, so if something beats the Pioneer I'll want to check it out.

This is VERY cool!!! Can't wait!

I wish you could also set up a PRO-110FD. Mainly I want to see how it compares with the 5020. I think it would be more interesting than having the 5010 present.

If the PG7000 is not available in time for the shoot-out, would the 50PG60 be ok for an LG product/representation??

Robert,

If you have any good Sony contacts I think it'd be great to get the 55inch XBR8 out there for comparison. Sony is thumping their chest hard and I rather see an unbiased shootout vs PR material from any company. If anyone has great Sony contacts, please forward them to Robert. We all benefit.

Robert,

If you have any good Sony contacts I think it'd be great to get the 55inch XBR8 out there for comparison. Sony is thumping their chest hard and I rather see an unbiased shootout vs PR material from any company. If anyone has great Sony contacts, please forward them to Robert. We all benefit.

+1

http://gizmodo.com/5013722/sony-hosts-xbr8-led-lcd-vs-plasma-shootout-youll-never-guess-who-wins

If this event could somehow be recorded, I would sure buy a copy.

If the PG7000 is not available in time for the shoot-out, would the 50PG60 be ok for an LG product/representation??

Not really, it's the PG7000 that's supposed to have Infinite Contrast.

So only the LG with an advertised 0 idling luminance can be used or no LG product at all, when every other plasma in the shoot-out wouldn't have 0 idling luminance either?? The PG60 line is still one of LG's higher end models.

Are these all going to be calibrated? (a daunting task :)

Otherwise. what's the point?

thx

bob

Are these all going to be calibrated? (a daunting task :)

Otherwise. what's the point?

thx

bob

.. probably yes, an on-site pro calibrator was used during last fall's LCD hosted shoot-out. :)

.. probably yes, an on-site pro calibrator was used during last fall's LCD hosted shoot-out. :)

I figured so but with all the possible contestants....

Can't wait



bob

So only the LG with an advertised 0 idling luminance can be used or no LG product at all, when every other plasma in the shoot-out wouldn't have 0 idling luminance either?? The PG60 line is still one of LG's higher end models.

No, sorry I didn't mean that. The question might be does the PG60 even stand a chance against the other sets? Equal oppourtuniy and all but still?

If this event could somehow be recorded, I would sure buy a copy.

I can bring my camcorder, if Robert has no objections.
(hv20)

I can shoot in 24p.. of the new pio displaying 24p.. LOL.

I wish you could also set up a PRO-110FD. Mainly I want to see how it compares with the 5020. I think it would be more interesting than having the 5010 present.

We will have PDP-5010FD, PDP-5020FD, PRO-111FD, PDP-6020FD and the PRO-150FD sorry I do not have any PRO-110FD left.

-Robert

I can bring my camcorder, if Robert has no objections.
(hv20)

I can shoot in 24p.. of the new pio displaying 24p.. LOL.

Please bring it along and you can view the material for personal use only, so public viewing of the material is strictly prohibited without my written permission.

-Robert

why not make disk together and sell them for $10 each

+1 on the Sony XBR8. I think that would be one of the more interesting face-offs if there's any way to score one that early.

We will have PDP-5010FD, PDP-5020FD, PRO-111FD, PDP-6020FD and the PRO-150FD sorry I do not have any PRO-110FD left.

-Robert

Robert,
I would be able to bring my 1150HD Elite if you are able to accomadate it.
Only ~700hrs on panel.

Robert,
I would be able to bring my 1150HD Elite if you are able to accomadate it.
Only ~700hrs on panel.


It would be cool to see a 768p thrown in the mix.

As a recovering LCD addict, I can't wait to see the results of this comparison.

It would be cool to see a 768p thrown in the mix.

ditto!

Robert, like some others said why not a LG PG60 if PG7000 not yet available?

Are these all going to be calibrated? (a daunting task :)

Otherwise. what's the point?

thx

bob

Every panel will be ISF calibrated by the same ISF certified expert, with the same tools, on the same day and with the same sources. In fact, the ISF calibrator will be on the panel of presenters explaining what he did and what to look for in a panel.

-Robert

Every panel will be ISF calibrated by the same ISF certified expert, with the same tools, on the same day and with the same sources. In fact, the ISF calibrator will be on the panel of presenters explaining what he did and what to look for in a panel.

-Robert

with the same lighting conditions as the show as well!

Hey y'all. I just wanted to repeat it here for anyone joining this thread on page 3. Some AVSers will be there Saturday and will do lunch after the shoot-out and reception. Robert says there's a great place around the corner. Want to come? Shoot me a PM. I'll make the reservation.

+1 on the Sony XBR8. I think that would be one of the more interesting face-offs if there's any way to score one that early.

+1

Without a KDL-55XBR8 for the shoot-out, DTV TiVo Dealer may very well be holding a sham event here... :( With the KDL-55XBR8 not being available till September or so, I suppose this gives him a legitimate excuse... oh well!

+1

Without a KDL-55XBR8 for the shoot-out, DTV TiVo Dealer may very well be holding a sham event here... :( With the KDL-55XBR8 not being available till September or so, I suppose this gives him a legitimate excuse... oh well!

I certainly would NOT call it a sham shoot-out - especially since this is a plasma shoot-out. Robert already held an LCD shoot-out. Still, if he could find one, and was willing to include it in his plasma shoot-out, I would find it extremely interesting.

I certainly would NOT call it a sham shoot-out - especially since this is a plasma shoot-out. Robert already held an LCD shoot-out. Still, if he could find one, and was willing to include it in his plasma shoot-out, I would find it extremely interesting.

I second your point. Since this is a plasma shoot-out, and is advertised as such, it is legitimate to exclude LCDs if one so chooses. Perhaps a plasma vs. LCD shoot-out could occur as a follow-up, with the winners of the LCD shootout put up against the winning plasmas. The XBR8 would surely be available by the time such an event took place.

I second your point. Since this is a plasma shoot-out, and is advertised as such, it is legitimate to exclude LCDs if one so chooses. Perhaps a plasma vs. LCD shoot-out could occur as a follow-up, with the winners of the LCD shootout put up against the winning plasmas. The XBR8 would surely be available by the time such an event took place.

.. i believe the favorite LCD during last Fall's shoot-out was the Toshiba 52LX177; its newer brother (replacement) appears to be the 52XF550U. :)

since this shoot out is going to take place is a pro photograhper going to be there and use a good camera or will it be limited as usual by iso exposeure and our viewing display?

I think you want the LG PG60 in the shootout. I believe the PG7000 is the equivalent non-US model. Many are hoping the PG60 will outgun a Panny 800U.

+1

Without a KDL-55XBR8 for the shoot-out, DTV TiVo Dealer may very well be holding a sham event here... :( With the KDL-55XBR8 not being available till September or so, I suppose this gives him a legitimate excuse... oh well!

Just leave. You offer nothing for this forum.


Who is xbr8??

I think you want the LG PG60 in the shootout. I believe the PG7000 is the equivalent non-US model. Many are hoping the PG60 will outgun a Panny 800U.

They are not the same. If you could get a 700 that would be worth throwing in the mix.

Robert....no interest in my 1150 for the shootout?

I have a 1150 on display, but I'm not sure if we should include it since 768p panels are no longer in production, space is somewhat limited and I want to compare the latest high end panels. So if we have the room it will be included.

-Robert

We will have PDP-5010FD, PDP-5020FD, PRO-111FD, PDP-6020FD and the PRO-150FD sorry I do not have any PRO-110FD left.

-Robert

Robert,

Despite being new to AVS and not as knowledgeable as many here, I nevertheless wonder if it wouldn't be prudent to limit the total number of sets in the shoot-out to a number wich is easily manageable for you, since a large number could be overwhelming to viewers and have a negative effect on evaluations. I know that when I've spent too long looking at (possibly) too many sets, I'd develop a case of eye fatigue and a slightly fried brain; sometimes headaches ensue. This happens even with plasmas, which are not usually as bright as LCDs. And trying to check out too many TVs (more than, say, 4 or 5 at a time), I lose track of my impressions and have to go look at them again, which gets my eyes tired even more.

But if they'll all be calibrated, the reduced brightness will help mitigate tired eyes. Room lighting will surely be controlled in your setup as well. And despite the total number of TVs, if they're presented in small groups as opposed to one big one, it may help produce more solid evaluations. And as long as they're all arranged logically, it shouldn't matter too much if a particular set isn't next to another; everything can't be next to everything anyway.

Thanks prepress, I understand and agree.

Here's the panels I want on the main shoot-out wall. PDP-5010FD, PRO-111FD, Samsung 52" 81 series, Sharp 52" 94SE, Toshiba 52XF550U, Panasonic 50PZ800U or 850U if I can get one and possibly LG's 7000 is available.

If we get a lot of requests I can add the PRO-1150FD.

So we'll likely have 6 panels all 50" to 52" on one wall, two rows of three panels per row.

On other walls we'll have a PRO-150FD, PDP-6020FD and other Panasonic, JVC and Sony panels.

-Robert

Robert:

What type of feedback can we expect for those unfortunate folks that can't attend, like me?

+1

Without a KDL-55XBR8 for the shoot-out, DTV TiVo Dealer may very well be holding a sham event here... :( With the KDL-55XBR8 not being available till September or so, I suppose this gives him a legitimate excuse... oh well!

Since each of your four posts demonstrates a clear favoring of LCDs and a disdain for plasmas, I would say you would not be called one of our more 'objective' posters. :rolleyes:

Why would you even venture on to a thread like this unless your intent was to do a bit of trolling? You've made up your mind on technologies and you should be spending your time on the LCD threads.

since this shoot out is going to take place is a pro photograhper going to be there and use a good camera or will it be limited as usual by iso exposeure and our viewing display?

You will never get an accurate assessment from a digital camera's picture. Remember they will inevitably be viewed on a low contrast LCD monitor.

ken i agree on this post regards to the member for insteing on lcd

Since each of your four posts demonstrates a clear favoring of LCDs and a disdain for plasmas, I would say you would not be called one of our more 'objective' posters. :rolleyes:

Why would you even venture on to a thread like this unless your intent was to do a bit of trolling? You've made up your mind on technologies and you should be spending your time on the LCD threads.

i figured you would mentioned this so disregard my post ;)

You will never get an accurate assessment from a digital camera's picture. Remember they will inevitably be viewed on a low contrast LCD monitor.

You will never get an accurate assessment from a digital camera's picture. Remember they will inevitably be viewed on a low contrast LCD monitor.

Shouldn't the picture from the digital camera viewed on a terrible LCD monitor still show the differences between the output of the various sets? I'm not saying that any one should be critiquing the picture quality of a set based on a digital still viewed through another imperfect filter (like some have - see pictures threads), but wouldn't the picture show if one set looks better than another? Besides, what's wrong with a bit of voyeurism from those of us who can't be there?

Thanks prepress, I understand and agree.

Here's the panels I want on the main shoot-out wall. PDP-5010FD, PRO-111FD, Samsung 52" 81 series, Sharp 52" 94SE, Toshiba 52XF550U, Panasonic 50PZ800U or 850U if I can get one and possibly LG's 7000 is available.

If we get a lot of requests I can add the PRO-1150FD.

So we'll likely have 6 panels all 50" to 52" on one wall, two rows of three panels per row.

On other walls we'll have a PRO-150FD, PDP-6020FD and other Panasonic, JVC and Sony panels.

-Robert

You have the TVs I am most interested in (5020, PRO-111, Sharp 94SE). Great! I sent you an e-mail and am hoping to arrange transportation for the event.

Shouldn't the picture from the digital camera viewed on a terrible LCD monitor still show the differences between the output of the various sets? I'm not saying that any one should be critiquing the picture quality of a set based on a digital still viewed through another imperfect filter (like some have - see pictures threads), but wouldn't the picture show if one set looks better than another? Besides, what's wrong with a bit of voyeurism from those of us who can't be there?

Man, this is the third time that I've rewritten this post.

I think posting results on this forum would be fine if the photos are properly taken and that there are ample disclamers that viewers should have their monitors calibrated to better see the results. Uncalibrated monitors will likely not represent how the plasmas are performing.

Frankly, if I was photographing it, I'd have to shoot it tripod mounted (and not one of those $49 woosy tripods) using camera raw and use photoshop CS2 to be sure that nothing is added or subtracted from what the plasmas are doing. That sounds simple, but what you don't know is if one plasma has a scene that is predominately blues and another is predominately reds that using the same color temp and tint in camera raw, does't correct the additive color that the lens causes. In other words, even when you know what you're doing, its going to be a bear to get it absolutely right.

Robert:

What type of feedback can we expect for those unfortunate folks that can't attend, like me?

I want to IP cast the events, but need a volunteer to set-up the feed. Any takers?

I will have a wireless network connection and I expect some folks to bring their laptops and digital cameras to post on this thread.

-Robert

I have a Nikon D80 10.2 megapixel digital still camera and a pro-tripod. Anyone comfortable in using the camera is welcome to do so. I also plan on filing with my HD Camcorder and SD digital camcorder.

Come on folks someone step up to the plate and set-up the IP cast so we can broadcast this on U-tube and use my static IP address for forum members to tune in to a higher quality feed.

-Robert

Shouldn't the picture from the digital camera viewed on a terrible LCD monitor still show the differences between the output of the various sets? I'm not saying that any one should be critiquing the picture quality of a set based on a digital still viewed through another imperfect filter (like some have - see pictures threads), but wouldn't the picture show if one set looks better than another? Besides, what's wrong with a bit of voyeurism from those of us who can't be there?

Here's your short answer: No

What controls will be in place to eliminate the potential for bias due to brand loyalty?

What controls will be in place to eliminate the potential for bias due to brand loyalty?

.. a team from Consumer Reports. :D

What controls will be in place to eliminate the potential for bias due to brand loyalty?

Correct daniel'son, and may I add some additional assurances. An independent ISF instructor/calibrator is performing all of the calibrations, using the same test and measurement instruments, same sources, same day and in our store so the environment is the same for all panels. In fact, we may have more than one ISF instructor so we will have two independent experts.

The ISF instructors I am working with are very well know and highly respected. I have no affiliation with either of them. I have carefully planned for this event for over a year. Selecting the best panels, re-wiring our store, negotiating with Pioneer and other CE manufacturers to get expert presenters, materials and panels and BD players that are not even on the market yet.

This is the only correct way to see and measure the performance of each panel. An even playing field, in the same room with the same sources and ISF calibrating the panels to their best possible performance.

-Robert

Shouldn't the picture from the digital camera viewed on a terrible LCD monitor still show the differences between the output of the various sets?

No it wouldn't. A digital camera has it's own picture processing chip. Its main goal is to get every single detail it can by altering exposure and dynamic range. A digital camera will try to make the best looking image, not the most accurate. You can help alleviate this problem, to a point, using manual settings. Even then, there's still the digital processing chip.

Let's say there's a difference between two values of light. The light sensor will boost if too dim, saturate all values to black, or may leave it alone. If a light is too bright it might do the same on the opposite side of the equation. The point is you don't know.

Pictures are supposed to be "pretty" and "artistic", based on your preference. With the right settings, you could have a generation 1 and next years gen 10 side by side and with enough tinkering you'd think the gen 1 was gen 10!

Thanks prepress, I understand and agree.

Here's the panels I want on the main shoot-out wall. PDP-5010FD, PRO-111FD, Samsung 52" 81 series, Sharp 52" 94SE, Toshiba 52XF550U, Panasonic 50PZ800U or 850U if I can get one and possibly LG's 7000 is available.

If we get a lot of requests I can add the PRO-1150FD.

So we'll likely have 6 panels all 50" to 52" on one wall, two rows of three panels per row.
-Robert

I really hope you are able to get a Panasonic 850 unit in there. I know they just got released, but hopefully you can get a Panasonic rep to give you an early model. CNet just had one that they were able to view. Given that that is the latest Panasonic tech, it would be perfect to compare that with the latest models from the other manufacturers.

I have a 1150 on display, but I'm not sure if we should include it since 768p panels are no longer in production, space is somewhat limited and I want to compare the latest high end panels. So if we have the room it will be included.

-Robert

Aren't you using a 5010?
The 1150 would be better than that overall and some others in the line-up.
But I completely understand you only have so much room.

My wife and I will be traveling from Connecticut to the shoot-out if there is any space left. Robert I emailed you tonight. Looking forward to the event, even my wife is excited.!

tlinks

Correct daniel'son, and may I add some additional assurances. ...
-Robert

.. holy horse-flys, i was right; i was just trying to make a funny.

Robert, you always go above and beyond, as noted from last year's LCD shoot-out. If I had expertise in 'IP cast', I would definitely fly up there to assist. :)

Who is xbr8??

It's a trilumnous led, 1080p, bravias engine2, ace pro, dnle, local dimming, 120hz, motion flow, 10 bit, x.v. color technology, live color creation technology, enhanced xmb with 3d graphics, 1.21 gigawatts. At a cost of only 5 thousand. What a joke. I wonder how many other features Sony can add to make it compete with a PDP.

These will be off the shelf samples (Like consumer reports does)
, not hand picked/tweaked by the manufacturer?


bob



Correct daniel'son, and may I add some additional assurances. An independent ISF instructor/calibrator is performing all of the calibrations, using the same test and measurement instruments, same sources, same day and in our store so the environment is the same for all panels. In fact, we may have more than one ISF instructor so we will have two independent experts.

The ISF instructors I am working with are very well know and highly respected. I have no affiliation with either of them. I have carefully planned for this event for over a year. Selecting the best panels, re-wiring our store, negotiating with Pioneer and other CE manufacturers to get expert presenters, materials and panels and BD players that are not even on the market yet.

This is the only correct way to see and measure the performance of each panel. An even playing field, in the same room with the same sources and ISF calibrating the panels to their best possible performance.

-Robert

I'd like to see a 720P Elite represented just to also compare the best 720 to the best 1080?

I'm still not convinced that 1080P is a must have for all of us!



thx


bob






Thanks prepress, I understand and agree.

Here's the panels I want on the main shoot-out wall. PDP-5010FD, PRO-111FD, Samsung 52" 81 series, Sharp 52" 94SE, Toshiba 52XF550U, Panasonic 50PZ800U or 850U if I can get one and possibly LG's 7000 is available.

If we get a lot of requests I can add the PRO-1150FD.

So we'll likely have 6 panels all 50" to 52" on one wall, two rows of three panels per row.

On other walls we'll have a PRO-150FD, PDP-6020FD and other Panasonic, JVC and Sony panels.

-Robert

the knobber i dont think thats going to happen all in all the 850 is close to the pioneer non elite but its simple BEST PQ = pioneer somewhat great quality for a lower price = panasonic pretty simple bro, i have a 42px75u and while its a fine tv im goin to get the pro-111FD pioneer elite.


I really hope you are able to get a Panasonic 850 unit in there. I know they just got released, but hopefully you can get a Panasonic rep to give you an early model. CNet just had one that they were able to view. Given that that is the latest Panasonic tech, it would be perfect to compare that with the latest models from the other manufacturers.


devildog this is just an example how much add ons lcd needs to compete to plasma:eek: and it stil has alot of flaws to get the kicks motion blur cloud etc etc.... lcd is just nowhere near and at that price it would NOT make sense to get an lcd when you can get the very best plasma :D

It's a trilumnous led, 1080p, bravias engine2, ace pro, dnle, local dimming, 120hz, motion flow, 10 bit, x.v. color technology, live color creation technology, enhanced xmb with 3d graphics, 1.21 gigawatts. At a cost of only 5 thousand. What a joke. I wonder how many other features Sony can add to make it compete with a PDP.

bob i too think that 1080p may not be worth about 1g as thats usualy how much it cost to upgrade from an 720p model to the next 1080p But i have not seen a 720p vs a 1080p running side by side with the same content such as a blu ray so i cannot say until facts are given,

but i do know that 1080p does make everything smoother regardless if it takes advantages of 1080p res or not. and well for the new pioneer they are cheaper! they are pure pioneer and they have 1080p so we loose nothing :D

Correct daniel'son, and may I add some additional assurances. An independent ISF instructor/calibrator is performing all of the calibrations, using the same test and measurement instruments, same sources, same day and in our store so the environment is the same for all panels. In fact, we may have more than one ISF instructor so we will have two independent experts.

The ISF instructors I am working with are very well know and highly respected. I have no affiliation with either of them. I have carefully planned for this event for over a year. Selecting the best panels, re-wiring our store, negotiating with Pioneer and other CE manufacturers to get expert presenters, materials and panels and BD players that are not even on the market yet.

This is the only correct way to see and measure the performance of each panel. An even playing field, in the same room with the same sources and ISF calibrating the panels to their best possible performance.

-Robert

Robert, Kevin Miller wouldn't be 1 of those ISF?

Yes, I am speaking with the famous Kevin Miller. No promises yet...

-Robert

Man I wish I could be there!!!

Robert, I saw that you will have (hoping to have) both the 5020 and the Pro-111FD there.

Would it be possible to somehow cover the bezels up and do the "blind test" we were talking about in the other thread?
I would love to see if some of the Top Videophiles can tell the difference when the bezels are covered.
Just be sure to take the speakers off.lol they are a dead givaway.

Good luck with the Shootout!
-Chad M.

Chad, that's a interesting idea for all of the panels bezel's covered as everyone comes in or how about leave them uncovered till near the end of the presentation, have blindfolds put on the participants them mix up the panels positions by having our tech's cover and move them a random order and have the participants vote on which panel is which.

-Robert

i agree that is an excellent ideal no badges and no speakers, oh and the isf calibrators will know which is elite and which is not but can you try to

do the ideal

and

keep the isf in closed words so they dont tell the people which tv is which

this would defitanly clear up things for the unbiased people like you robert:D and would prove if once calibrated on the same matirial same lighting which would be the best choice on the elite vs non elite but i still think the elite has the upper hand....

Robert -

About how long do you expect the 11 am Saturday event to run?

Yes, I am speaking with the famous Kevin Miller. No promises yet...

-Robert

Ah, Kevin ISF'd my old 64" Zenith HD CRT RPTV. He had fun with that, he must have spent the better part of a day at my house. Many people may not know what a bear it was to get everything right on those old CRTs! :)

I like Chad's idea as that is what I am really after, what looks the best to me regardless of manufacturer, regardless of model.

But I think we should mainly focus on what is in the market to purchase today, so I'm not sure it's worth comparing 1080 to 768. How many readers are considering a 768 purchase at the end of July? I'm not sure there will be any of the Pios remaining in the market.

I'm more interested in seeing Pio Elite compared to the non-Elite, the Panny, Sammy, and LG. Then, once I've picked the 111 :rolleyes: do an A/B switch thingie to see the impact of the fully integrated Pio system compared to other really good BD and AVR players as suggested by Vashti. Finally, since the 111 is calibrated, I'll walk out the door with it under my arm :D (assuming that's what I pick from among all that's on display).

I like Chad's idea as that is what I am really after, what looks the best to me regardless of manufacturer, regardless of model.

But I think we should mainly focus on what is in the market to purchase today, so I'm not sure it's worth comparing 1080 to 768. How many readers are considering a 768 purchase at the end of July? I'm not sure there will be any of the Pios remaining in the market.

).

I'm in the minority and would be interested in a used 8G 720p Kuro, especially if people are "dumping" them to get the 9G's. I have a circa 2006 NEC (Mits) that has phenomenal color/processing but pathetic black levels (1000:1)

I think the new pio's would be the only current set that could match the scaling/color/processing that I'm spoiled by :) Don't know about the current NEC's? Need another contender? :)


bob

Robert -

About how long do you expect the 11 am Saturday event to run?

Two to a max of three hours.

-Robert

Hello,

I am still new to the forum (though I notice "new" has disappeared from my membership status) and don't know anyone, but if anyone's driving up from NYC to the shoot-out and wouldn't mind a passenger, I'd like to go along. Feel free to e-mail or PM.

This would be one of the few chances to see my likely future TV and its main competition under proper circumstances.

For all you New Yorkers, Metro North stops in Scarsdale very close to Value Electronics. This is how I went to the LCD shoot-out. It was simple, cheap, and quick.

Robert, I know this is asking a lot but....could you also include one of the Samsung A650 LCDs:)

I doubt there is room for it if there is none for an 1150...but can't hurt to ask.

I wondered about this too. This is Samsung's newest LCDs right? Are they a step up from the 81 series? I know a guy in CC told me that it definitely was. Perhaps he doesn't know. But whichever is the top model, it seems like that is the one that should be used.

I wondered about this too. This is Samsung's newest LCDs right? Are they a step up from the 81 series? I know a guy in CC told me that it definitely was. Perhaps he doesn't know. But whichever is the top model, it seems like that is the one that should be used.

The new plasma model Samsung with the "Touch of Color" is an A650 (PNXXA650). And yes, their LCD model is also called an A650 (LNXXA650), just to confuse everyone. The "PN" seems to denote Plasma, and the "LN" LCD. The "XX" is a placeholder for screen size.

you're right vashti i dont know what happend to me lol though i would like to see samsung 650 lcd that is close the the kuro that umr claims based on his calibration he said that the colors was close just for curious cuz despite the flaws i dont think i would go with lcd

this is strictly a plasma shoot out, though i would like to see sammy that is close the the kuro that umr claims

Nope. It looks like it has evolved into a flat panel shoot-out. Note the thread title. Also, Robert's last list of included panels had equal numbers of plasmas and LCDs. And you're right about UMR. It was the 650 LCD he compared to Kuros. So what do you say Robert? Could we compare that instead of last year's 81 series?

Two to a max of three hours.

-Robert

Thanks.

Robert Can you please PM the address.

Thanks,
Gene

Are we able to see before and after print outs of the calibration like best buy does?


Regards,

MrMarion

For all you New Yorkers, Metro North stops in Scarsdale very close to Value Electronics. This is how I went to the LCD shoot-out. It was simple, cheap, and quick.
That's good to know. Then, if I don't get a ride up, I can take the train and I wouldn't have to inconvenience anybody. I'd need only specific directions from the station, since I'm unfamiliar with Scarsdale.

I just want to thank Robert again for stepping up and spending all the time and money to have this done. As a Magnolia employee (albeit, part-time, and not for much longer), it's extremely useful to identify which panels are actually the best, after proper calibration. The amount of planning necessary for an event like this must be significant, and I do appreciate what you're doing, Robert.

That said, if there's something I can do to help out, feel free to PM me. I'd love to setup the video feed, but my laptop doesn't have FireWire, and although the built-in camera would work, quality would be disasterous.

Nope. It looks like it has evolved into a flat panel shoot-out. Note the thread title. Also, Robert's last list of included panels had equal numbers of plasmas and LCDs. And you're right about UMR. It was the 650 LCD he compared to Kuros. So what do you say Robert? Could we compare that instead of last year's 81 series?

I'd love to see how a 52A650 stacks up to the best Plasma has to offer. I know it probably will get crushed on black level but from everything I've read and my first hand experience the A650 has very accurate color.

I agree Samsung's 52A650 is in the shoot-out.

-Robert

Great call!

Hopefully there will be someone there to specifically compare the 6020 v. the PRO-150FD. Is the new regular Kuro better than last year's Elite??????


I agree Samsung's 52A650 is in the shoot-out.

-Robert

I'd love to see how a 52A650 stacks up to the best Plasma has to offer. I know it probably will get crushed on black level but from everything I've read and my first hand experience the A650 has very accurate color.

CNET gave the LCD 650 an 8 out of 10 rating. I saw a 46" one in CC and, though there wasn't anything next to it for immediate comparison, the set did look pretty good. CNET also made the assertion that the Samsung wasn't up to the level of the best plasmas, though (which probably means, or at least includes, KUROs).

I agree Samsung's 52A650 is in the shoot-out.

-Robert

:D:D:D

I'd love to see a Vizio included just so I could tell all their delusional fanboys to STF. Of course they tend to ignore professional reviews anyway.:rolleyes:

I'd love to see a Vizio included just so I could tell all their delusional fanboys to STF. Of course they tend to ignore professional reviews anyway.:rolleyes:

What's a Vizio ???

:D

a brand that will not be included a brand that i will never buy

LCD's are just room taker-uppers.

Hi All,

It's great that this is taking place! If I may provide some input - my feelings are that without the supposed "Infinite Contrast' LG PG7000 Series I feel much may be missed out - the Pioneer G9's are the ones that most want to see how well the others stand up to but ONLY the LG claims that it can match or exceed the Kuro's (maybe Pioneer knows this and this is why they will be sending out a specialist team all the way from Japan?!) - LG is promising to deliver their sets at very competitive pricing levels which may mean access to performance levels of the G9 for most and not just for the high end/deep pocket market and that has a very significant bearing.

Maybe a bit of creative marketing direct to LG and try to twist their arm into sending their technicians and specialist teams to the event with the PG7000 sets in hand? I know that the Koreans would love to get one over on the Japanese (and love to rub Pioneer's nose in it!) and if indeed the PG7000 does deilver to any credible level then it would be a massive boost for them and have everyone else out there shaking in their boots - they have to release them sooner or later anyway! This could be a great opportunity for them - maybe someone can convince them of that? I hope in this test SD performance is also given due consideration! We MUST have the 'Infinite Contrast' LG Sets there!!

Bazzy!

Hi All,

It's great that this is taking place! If I may provide some input - my feelings are that without the supposed "Infinite Contrast' LG PG7000 Series I feel much may be missed out - the Pioneer G9's are the ones that most want to see how well the others stand up to but ONLY the LG claims that it can match or exceed the Kuro's (maybe Pioneer knows this and this is why they will be sending out a specialist team all the way from Japan?!) - LG is promising to deliver their sets at very competitive pricing levels which may mean access to performance levels of the G9 for most and not just for the high end/deep pocket market and that has a very significant bearing.

Maybe a bit of creative marketing direct to LG and try to twist their arm into sending their technicians and specialist teams to the event with the PG7000 sets in hand? I know that the Koreans would love to get one over on the Japanese (and love to rub Pioneer's nose in it!) and if indeed the PG7000 does deilver to any credible level then it would be a massive boost for them and have everyone else out there shaking in their boots - they have to release them sooner or later anyway! This could be a great opportunity for them - maybe someone can convince them of that? I hope in this test SD performance is also given due consideration! We MUST have the 'Infinite Contrast' LG Sets there!!

Bazzy!


They aren't able to be bought in America right now and besides the reported blacks and contrast their is color accuracy, processing, etc.

SD? This is to see what is the best, SD is not important. Especially going forward.
Usually the better the processing the better SD, so up until now at least it is Pioneer for SD.

SD? This is to see what is the best, SD is not important. Especially going forward.
Usually the better the processing the better SD, so up until now at least it is Pioneer for SD.

I disagree. I want to know how the sets perform with the best source material and the worst. Both are significant to me.

Hi,

"SD is not important. Especially going forward. - Usually the better the processing the better SD, so up until now at least it is Pioneer for SD."

I too disagree with the above - the vast majority of stuff being broadcast is mainly still in SD and until that remains - SD is very important - everyone makes a perfectly acceptable and capable HD Performing set - the only difference being by what margins they differ by - that is not the case with SD stuff - especially off air TV transmissions. If we are talking about moving forward and not staying still, then I see no reason why until SD is actually buried for good, it should not also be improved upon.

Bazzy!

I disagree. I want to know how the sets perform with the best source material and the worst. Both are significant to me.

Same here.

In stores, a SD demo isn't all that hard to get as they often have their signals set wrong. In walmart yesterday, they had a SD signal going to what must have been twenty sets. :eek:

Hi,

"SD is not important. Especially going forward. - Usually the better the processing the better SD, so up until now at least it is Pioneer for SD."

I too disagree with the above - the vast majority of stuff being broadcast is mainly still in SD and until that remains - SD is very important - everyone makes a perfectly acceptable and capable HD Performing set - the only difference being by what margins they differ by - that is not the case with SD stuff - especially off air TV transmissions. If we are talking about moving forward and not staying still, then I see no reason why until SD is actually buried for good, it should not also be improved upon.

Bazzy!

Me too. In fact, it was the reports of good SD picture on the Kuros that got me started in researching the Pioneers. A friend of mine had picked up a Sony LCD which looked great with an HD feed, but the SD channels, which were all but 10 available at the time, made it hard to watch.

Me too. In fact, it was the reports of good SD picture on the Kuros that got me started in researching the Pioneers. A friend of mine had picked up a Sony LCD which looked great with an HD feed, but the SD channels, which were all but 10 available at the time, made it hard to watch.

And processing is a major reason I'm considering Pioneer. I want something that can help my LD player and I can't swing an outboard processor right now. In fact, how a TV handles SD is my cardinal criterion.

Kuro panels do have excellent v/p.

The Saturday 11:00 AM class is full and Friday 7:00 PM is almost full. The entire event is open to the public Friday morning till Saturday afternoon with private classes for AVS 7/18 at 7:00 PM and 7/19 at 11:00AM, should we add another AVS Forum class and if so what would be the best time/date?

-Robert

Kuro panels do have excellent v/p.

The Saturday 11:00 AM class is full and Friday 7:00 PM is almost full. The entire event is open to the public Friday morning till Saturday afternoon with private classes for AVS 7/18 at 7:00 PM and 7/19 at 11:00AM, should we add another AVS Forum class and if so what would be the best time/date?

-Robert
Hello Robert,

Given the circumstances, I should ask if you got my 6/7 e-mail. If you did add another session, perhaps it should be the following week or the week prior, so that you'd not have to dismantle the set-up only to put it up again later.

I would also be interested in how these TVs sound, though in this comparison it's unlikely we'll hear any of them. The majority of people use the TV speakers, I've read; so will I for straight-up TV watching. With my setup, I'm not going to flip 6 or 7 switches when all I want is to catch the Weather Channel forecast. Pioneer TVs have a supposedly improved audio section (18 wpc vs. 17 in the 8G models). My 27" XBR tube sounds very good, and I'm spoiled by it. I even play DVDs through it when I don't feel like firing up the big rig.

Perhaps Robert or his staff will be able to share impressions on sound quality with some of the TVs as an aside.

bazzy Pioneer are known for having superior blacks processing color accuracy contrast detail and the list goes on, the lg while good product are no where near as the pioneer ( i think no proof to my claim) wont be much of a shot.

Robert will not be able to get the lg to his shoot out since its not available, i would of liked to see the lg new tv as well.

also do you have proof to backup your claim in regards that pioneer will be sending specialist team all the way from japan? also what about the proof where lg claims to exceed pioneers 9g?

Hi All,

It's great that this is taking place! If I may provide some input - my feelings are that without the supposed "Infinite Contrast' LG PG7000 Series I feel much may be missed out - the Pioneer G9's are the ones that most want to see how well the others stand up to but ONLY the LG claims that it can match or exceed the Kuro's (maybe Pioneer knows this and this is why they will be sending out a specialist team all the way from Japan?!) - LG is promising to deliver their sets at very competitive pricing levels which may mean access to performance levels of the G9 for most and not just for the high end/deep pocket market and that has a very significant bearing.

Maybe a bit of creative marketing direct to LG and try to twist their arm into sending their technicians and specialist teams to the event with the PG7000 sets in hand? I know that the Koreans would love to get one over on the Japanese (and love to rub Pioneer's nose in it!) and if indeed the PG7000 does deilver to any credible level then it would be a massive boost for them and have everyone else out there shaking in their boots - they have to release them sooner or later anyway! This could be a great opportunity for them - maybe someone can convince them of that? I hope in this test SD performance is also given due consideration! We MUST have the 'Infinite Contrast' LG Sets there!!

Bazzy!

Well it sounds like I might get lynched, but I'd like to see Toshiba's flagship LCD XF550 vs the best Sony, LG, and Samsung LCD's you can get. It seemed like last year you thought Toshiba did a great job.

I doubt it's possible but I'd love to see the new Sony XBR8's with TRILUMINOS LED tech, and how it stacks up to the plasmas.

EDIT: I just saw you mentioned testing the XF550's, I wish I could come out to see. I noticed you mention the Samsung 81 series, I believe they are releasing the 9-series to replace the 81's this year, maybe it's possible to grab one of those.

xbr8 are not out and the lg PG700 neither

Thanks prepress, I understand and agree.

Here's the panels I want on the main shoot-out wall. PDP-5010FD, PRO-111FD, Samsung 52" 81 series, Sharp 52" 94SE, Toshiba 52XF550U, Panasonic 50PZ800U or 850U if I can get one and possibly LG's 7000 is available.

If we get a lot of requests I can add the PRO-1150FD.

So we'll likely have 6 panels all 50" to 52" on one wall, two rows of three panels per row.

On other walls we'll have a PRO-150FD, PDP-6020FD and other Panasonic, JVC and Sony panels.

-Robert

Robert, I lost track on what will be on the final shoot-out. Can you please do a quick re-cap?

Is the 81 series Samsung the LED back light LCD?

Hi Gus738!

"Bazzy Pioneer are known for having superior blacks processing color accuracy contrast detail and the list goes on,"

Totally agree with you there -

"The lg while good product are no where near as the pioneer ( i think no proof to my claim) wont be much of a shot."

Again agree with you with the current models competing with each other - the rest is speculation and opinion from your part on something no one has seen - what is true today may or may not also be true tomorrow!

"Also do you have proof to backup your claim in regards that pioneer will be sending specialist team all the way from japan?

OK, Firstly, it was not my claim and secondly, the proof:-

This Thread > Page 2 > Post 40: By Robert:

"Just heard, Pioneer is sending a PDP engineer from Japan, PDP specialist, a national trainer and the regional manager to our shoot-out so four Pioneer Elite specialists will be here to present and answer ANY and ALL questions. Many more special guests attending so this will be a premier event."

"Also what about the proof where lg claims to exceed pioneers 9g?"

By definition Gus, one can only conclude proof of LG's claims if there is an LG set physically there so it can then be compared to the G9's (and other sets) under test conditions and only then can one ascertain if there is any credibility to the claims - by your own assertion, you made it clear that as the LG sets are not in the Country, they then will not be available for the test. Unless you know of a way to pull 'proof' out of thin air - I guess we will all have to wait and see

Bazzy!

Well it sounds like I might get lynched, but I'd like to see Toshiba's flagship LCD XF550 vs the best Sony, LG, and Samsung LCD's you can get. It seemed like last year you thought Toshiba did a great job.

I doubt it's possible but I'd love to see the new Sony XBR8's with TRILUMINOS LED tech, and how it stacks up to the plasmas.

EDIT: I just saw you mentioned testing the XF550's, I wish I could come out to see. I noticed you mention the Samsung 81 series, I believe they are releasing the 9-series to replace the 81's this year, maybe it's possible to grab one of those.

Robert, I lost track on what will be on the final shoot-out. Can you please do a quick re-cap?

Is the 81 series Samsung the LED back light LCD?

So far we have PRO-111FD, PDP-5010FD, PDP-5020FD, Samsung LN52A650, Toshiba 52XF550U and Sharp LC-52SE94U That fills our shoot-out wall. We can swap any panel(s) so post your votes for substitute panels.

I want a Sony in the mix, but I don't think the XBR6 will stand up to the other panels. I wish we could get the XBR8 and LG's 7000.

This is a democracy so every vote counts.

-Robert

So far we have PRO-111FD, PDP-5010FD, PDP-5020FD, Samsung LN52A650, Toshiba 52XF550U and Sharp LC-52SE94U That fills our shoot-out wall. We can swap any panel(s) so post your votes for substitute panels.

I want a Sony in the mix, but I don't think the XBR6 will stand up to the other panels. I wish we could get the XBR8 and LG's 7000.

This is a democracy so every vote counts.

-Robert

Hi Robert!

Is there no way that LG can rise to the challenge and have a 'Infinite Contrast/Absolute Blackness" set (or whatever they call it) sent over for the event? Pull it off and you will be world famous! (I, of course will need to take some credit!) - I would love to be a fly on the wall with LG's boffins in one corner and Pioneer's in the other scoping each other out! Fact is, only these two in the Plasma camp are offering anything 'revolutionary' everything else is just mainly evolutionary in performance imho - plus it is what most, I believe would be interested in! It could be a defining moment - call LG Korea and tell them what is going on and Pioneer are really scared they might be there - it may just work - nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Bazzy!

Hi,

"SD is not important. Especially going forward. - Usually the better the processing the better SD, so up until now at least it is Pioneer for SD."

I too disagree with the above - the vast majority of stuff being broadcast is mainly still in SD and until that remains - SD is very important - everyone makes a perfectly acceptable and capable HD Performing set - the only difference being by what margins they differ by - that is not the case with SD stuff - especially off air TV transmissions. If we are talking about moving forward and not staying still, then I see no reason why until SD is actually buried for good, it should not also be improved upon.

Bazzy!

I just don't watch any SD much at all except for comedy centraland once in a while an SD disc. BR discs or HD-PPV movies or HBO and the like HD movies plus just a few HD shows and then majority HD sports are what make up my programming....so I don't take much notice of the SD programming.

Also, I said the displays with the best processing do SD the best in my experience which means it's the Pioneer.

So far we have PRO-111FD, PDP-5010FD, PDP-5020FD, Samsung LN52A650, Toshiba 52XF550U and Sharp LC-52SE94U That fills our shoot-out wall. We can swap any panel(s) so post your votes for substitute panels.

I want a Sony in the mix, but I don't think the XBR6 will stand up to the other panels. I wish we could get the XBR8 and LG's 7000.

This is a democracy so every vote counts.

-Robert
Samsung has a 750 series also, either out or on the way. Presumably that series is above the 650. Should that be included instead if available?

So far we have PRO-111FD, PDP-5010FD, PDP-5020FD, Samsung LN52A650, Toshiba 52XF550U and Sharp LC-52SE94U That fills our shoot-out wall. We can swap any panel(s) so post your votes for substitute panels.

I want a Sony in the mix, but I don't think the XBR6 will stand up to the other panels. I wish we could get the XBR8 and LG's 7000.

This is a democracy so every vote counts.

-Robert

What happened to the Panasonic?

What happened to the Panasonic?

+1

Yes, throw in the best Panny--800 or 850, please.

The Sammy LNxxA750 is shipping. Don't know if it's superior to the A650.

Thanks.

What happened to the Panasonic?

Wow, Good question

I was at Mag. today looking at the 6020 and the new Pannys definitely held their own.



bob

Robert,

Anyone yet volunteered for the IP cast? I would so much want to see the event, but living in Canada ... :(

bob a mag is not a good place to compare

bob a mag is not a good place to compare

I know, but it was the same DTV HD feed for all and I adjusted all to standard.


bob

I know, but it was the same DTV HD feed for all and I adjusted all to standard.


bob

Which Panny models?
thx.

So far we have PRO-111FD, PDP-5010FD, PDP-5020FD, Samsung LN52A650, Toshiba 52XF550U and Sharp LC-52SE94U That fills our shoot-out wall. We can swap any panel(s) so post your votes for substitute panels.

I want a Sony in the mix, but I don't think the XBR6 will stand up to the other panels. I wish we could get the XBR8 and LG's 7000.

This is a democracy so every vote counts.

-Robert


Any chance you can bring last years Samsung 81 LED LCD series to the mix in case Sony doesn't come through with the XBR8?

I would love to see how it compares when calibrated by professionals to the other displays.

bob a mag is not a good place to compare


If he is talking about Magnolia then I would have disagree. Every Magnolia I have ever been in has very little light or a completely dark room. Its not like he said he viewed them in the best buy floor area. If he was given free reign over the remotes than he could have had a very good comparison.

Yes Panasonic 800 or 850 is in the mix. On the main shoot-out wall I have room for 6 50" to 52" panels so lets get a list of which panels most of us woudl want to see compared.

-Robert

Which Panny models?
thx.

The 50" was an 85U or 800?

The other was the 65", didn't catch the model. The salesman was complaining hat he couldn't get the color/black levels right on the 6020 (Too crushed) THe 50" 1080P Panny did look the most natural


bob

wtfer well the xbr8 wont make it and the 81 series has already lost to the 8g kuro.... read here http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/features/779/plasma-vs-lcd-round-ii.html

both were calibrated by pros and several pros were there to judge

Any chance you can bring last years Samsung 81 LED LCD series to the mix in case Sony doesn't come through with the XBR8?

I would love to see how it compares when calibrated by professionals to the other displays.

i think mostly everyone would agree that the bestbuy/magnolia is not the best place to compare.

I know, but it was the same DTV HD feed for all and I adjusted all to standard.


bob

Yes Panasonic 800 or 850 is in the mix. On the main shoot-out wall I have room for 6 50" to 52" panels so lets get a list of which panels most of us woudl want to see compared.

-Robert

+1. Definitely want to see either the 850 or 800. Prefer the 850 if you can get it.

Ed

+1. Definitely want to see either the 850 or 800. Prefer the 850 if you can get it.

Ed

Which Panny is thx? That would be a good choice.


bob

Which Panny is thx? That would be a good choice.


bob800u, but the 850 stilll has more calibration options.

I was able to get Pioneer's new Elite PRO-FPJ1 and will likely set it up with our VP50 in our dedicated theater demo room. The fun just doesn't stop.

-Robert

Robert,

Are there still any openings left for this shoot out?

Thanks,

Mike

Yes Panasonic 800 or 850 is in the mix. On the main shoot-out wall I have room for 6 50" to 52" panels so lets get a list of which panels most of us woudl want to see compared.

-Robert

Thanks Robert, I would also love to see the Panny in the shoot-out wall. I would replace the Sharp with the Panny if you ask me b/c this event starts out as a Plasma shoot-out, not flat panel shoot-out. Nothing against the Sharp though.

Mike, yes we still have some seats open for Friday's 7:00 PM class..

Yes, SoSo I agree.

-Robert

Forgive my plasma ignorance, but what is the difference between the PDP-5010FD and the PDP-5020FD? Google made them out to be pretty similar. Wouldn't the lesser one of those be a better swap for the Panasonic?

For me I'd just be happy with the LCD's clumped together and the plasma's clumped together. When I was shopping, I never really compared the 2 against each other. I researched each technology learning each ones advantages and disadvantages, then made my pick. Once I had picked a technology I then dove into the PQ and side by side comparisons. But then I might just be odd.

Forgive my plasma ignorance, but what is the difference between the PDP-5010FD and the PDP-5020FD? Google made them out to be pretty similar. Wouldn't the lesser one of those be a better swap for the Panasonic?

For me I'd just be happy with the LCD's clumped together and the plasma's clumped together. When I was shopping, I never really compared the 2 against each other. I researched each technology learning each ones advantages and disadvantages, then made my pick. Once I had picked a technology I then dove into the PQ and side by side comparisons. But then I might just be odd.

5010 is last generation plasma panel and 5020 is the newest. By including both side by side, people can see the technology advancement and improvement. There is already a very strong LCD contender in the mix, the Samsung LN52A650, to show how the latest generation LCD vs. plasma technology. To me, if needed to include another LCD on the shoot out wall, it would be the LED backlighted LCD. Just my $0.02.

Mike, yes we still have some seats open for Friday's 7:00 PM class..

Yes, SoSo I agree.

-Robert

I would like to attend Friday's class.

Should I PM you with the request.

5010 is last generation plasma panel and 5020 is the newest. By including both side by side, people can see the technology advancement and improvement. There is already a very strong LCD contender in the mix, the Samsung LN52A650, to show how the latest generation LCD vs. plasma technology. To me, if needed to include another LCD on the shoot out wall, it would be the LED backlighted LCD. Just my $0.02.

Thanks, I thought the PRO-111FD was the newest Kuro?

Anyways, I'm happy enough with the XF550 being included. I can't wait to hear about event.

Thanks, I thought the PRO-111FD was the newest Kuro?

Anyways, I'm happy enough with the XF550 being included. I can't wait to hear about event.

It is.

5020 = 50" non-Elite
111 = 50" Elite
101 = 50" Signature

Toshiba has one of the best implementations of 120Hz technology, based upon articles and reviews I've seen, so its inclusion is a good idea.

wtfer well the xbr8 wont make it and the 81 series has already lost to the 8g kuro.... read here http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/features/779/plasma-vs-lcd-round-ii.html

both were calibrated by pros and several pros were there to judge

The problem is they didn't list the calibrations for both sets or show any pictures.
In fact the only pictures of the 81 LED LCD & the Kuro in the same room were from Pioneers shootout. Those pictures specifaclly had the 81 series shot at a off-angle & they might have had the LED option turned off on it as well.

I ask this because a few ISF calibraters posted on the official 81f thread & said they gave it an edge over some Kuros they calibrated.

The problem is they didn't list the calibrations for both sets or show any pictures.
In fact the only pictures of the 81 LED LCD & the Kuro in the same room were from Pioneers shootout. Those pictures specifaclly had the 81 series shot at a off-angle & they might have had the LED option turned off on it as well.

I ask this because a few ISF calibraters posted on the official 81f thread & said they gave it an edge over some Kuros they calibrated.


Considering statements made about the Samsung LCD display during the shootout that go from uneven grayscale, oversaturated colors, bad off angle viewing, lower contrast....I can't see how furnishing pictures to be viewed on non calibrated displays (many of which are LCD displays) could have been more effective.

For my standards, any of those four would have been enough to not consider a display, much less having all four show up on the same display.

Toshiba has one of the best implementations of 120Hz technology, based upon articles and reviews I've seen, so its inclusion is a good idea.

I agree and believe it or not; I was instrumental in getting Toshiba to implement 5:5 pull down, the only correct way to get to 120fps.

wtfer well the xbr8 wont make it and the 81 series has already lost to the 8g kuro.... read here http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/features/779/plasma-vs-lcd-round-ii.html

both were calibrated by pros and several pros were there to judge

i think mostly everyone would agree that the bestbuy/magnolia is not the best place to compare.

The problem is they didn't list the calibrations for both sets or show any pictures.
In fact the only pictures of the 81 LED LCD & the Kuro in the same room were from Pioneers shootout. Those pictures specifically had the 81 series shot at a off-angle & they might have had the LED option turned off on it as well.

I ask this because a few ISF calibraters posted on the official 81f thread & said they gave it an edge over some Kuros they calibrated.

Sorry to disagree, but Samsung's 81 series does not compare to the 8G or 9G Kuro's in black level, contrast ratio, detail, depth, color accuracy and of course, off angle viewing.

I am including Samsung's LN52A650 or LN52A750 as I hope the successor to the 81 series will have a shot at the golden ring.

-Robert

To further my post above ^^, here's a link to a post a few moments ago from a A650 owner who now has the 5020 and talks about the differences.

-Robert

Robert:

There's been a lot of talk about using Oppo 980 to feed the Pioneers with 480i over HDMI in order to allow the Pioneer to do the upscaling. But those who have the xx20s seem to find that feeding the Pioneer a raw 480i signal does not result in the best picture. Is this something we could explore during the shoot-out?

Also, I can't tell from the Pioneeer Blu-ray specs whether they pass a 480i signal over to the TV and, if they do, if that's the way to go or to have the BD do the upscale. Maybe if you pair up one of the Pio blu-ray players to the new Pios to show the impact of Pio integration, we can test this issue at the same time?

thanks.

sbwtwo, ^^ we'll have plenty of very technical Pioneer specialists and one of the very best ISF founding certified calibrator and instructor, several other a/v specialists as well as all of the equipment to test and demonstrate 480i scalling in all of the panels.

My understanding is that it would be best from most BD players to feed the disc's native resolution of 480i and let the panel do the scalling. We'll soon find out the definitive answer.

-Robert

To further my post above ^^, here's a link to a post a few moments ago from a A650 owner who now has the 5020 and talks about the differences.

-Robert

I returned a Samsung Plasma PN50A650 not the LCD model.

On a separate note I can't say enough good things about Robert. I ordered a Pioneer 5020 from Robert last Monday 6/09. I had some special circumstances that I needed the TV by Tuesday 6/17 at the very latest (I had 3 hours of hip surgery today to clean out some spurs on my femur head and I will be on crutches for six weeks). I live near Buffalo, NY and yesterday we had some heavy rain and hail storms. My delivery was scheduled for sometime between 3:30 and 6:00 pm. The TV did not come and I called the delivery place at 6:45 to see if the delivery was still on. The dispatcher returned my call to tell me that his drivers were done for the day due to the bad weather and he would need to schedule an appointment for today. I told him I could not, that it was unacceptable and that he needed to ship the TV back because I could not get it into the house and set it up by myself. I didn't want to hurt my recovery setting it up and I have friends who could help set it up, but if the broke the TV I was SOL.

I called Value Electronics to know that I had to have the TV sent back because of what I previously wrote. They were so disappointed with the delivery place because they knew about my surgery today. To make it right they agreed to have White Glove service come in and bring in the TV next week to bring the TV in and set it up for me. I gave VE the delivery place's number and my order number and I assumed it was all taken care of.

To my surprise at 8 pm yesterday my TV showed up (though the truck had a corrosive chemical sign on it and there were several containers of chemicals in the truck) and my TV was delivered. I do not know if Robert and VE had anything to do with getting the TV delivered yesterday, but if they did I am very grateful for their excellent customer service and making me the customer feel like a VIP.

I love the TV, much better than my Samsung Plasma 650 (though that TV was a good one). I haven't had too much time to watch it and the break in disc is keeping me up as I am stuck on the couch for the next 6 weeks (the beds are upstairs). I have cheated a little bit and Leno and Letterman looked much better and the colors looked great. I can't wait to cheat a little more and watch some DVD's on my oppo 980.

Thanks again VE team and Robert.

I am surely looking forward to this chance to see these TVs in a controlled setting, properly set up (especially the Sharp 94SE, Toshiba 550, Samsung 750, Panasonic 850 and any 9G Pioneer). I've said before that my tentative choice is the Pioneer 5020, but I could be dissuaded by another TV with features important to me if the Pioneer lacks them. And it's not so much which set has the best picture per se; it's which picture do I like the best. It comes down to which one allows me to enjoy the program and not focus on the picture. I still think that will likely be the 5020, but we'll see.

I hope we'll see them with OTA HD and SD, fed DVD at 480i and 480p, maybe even a VHS tape; any set that can make a VHS look good is a strong contender in my view. I don't own any tapes, but it'd be a good test.

On another note, hiding the bezels sounds like it would be entertaining, but it won't help me evaluate the sets or pick a favorite. I may be a minority voice on this, but I'd like to know what I'm looking at when I'm looking at it.

I would like to attend Friday's class.

Should I PM you with the request.

We just opened up 8 more seats for each class by removing some a/v furnature.

-Robert

Next thing, Robert will be knocking out a wall to accomodate a few more seats. :)

Wish I was within driving distance. I'd be there with you guys.

JimP, ^^ Funny you should say that as I am contemplating moving my office to the basement warehouse to accommodate another 10 seats.

-Robert

Anyone from Michigan or northern Illinois, Indiana, or Ohio planning on making a roadtrip to the shootout and buying a new plasma from Robert while in NY?

wtfer let me ask you this, did you read the article better yet did you even click on the website?:rolleyes:


They didn't need to post any pictures because 1) pictures will NEVER meet real life senerio and 2) they are professional calibrators that are not paid by an x brand of tv.

If you read the article you would of not said what i quoted you on for

I am soo pissed that you said


In fact the only pictures of the 81 LED LCD & the Kuro in the same room were from Pioneers shootout.

Because in the article that i provided had NOTHING to do with the kuro shoot out but insted from a few professional calibrators and it was Clearly said that the pros had every angle they tested the 81 and the 8g kuro.... and other various of proper testing on both panels to be fair so my rant is that you are either un aware of this article or biased and like 81 series?

Here is my quote wtfer

The problem is they didn't list the calibrations for both sets or show any pictures.
In fact the only pictures of the 81 LED LCD & the Kuro in the same room were from Pioneers shootout. Those pictures specifaclly had the 81 series shot at a off-angle & they might have had the LED option turned off on it as well.

I ask this because a few ISF calibraters posted on the official 81f thread & said they gave it an edge over some Kuros they calibrated.

Robert very well said its too bad that some other people dont understand it

Sorry to disagree, but Samsung's 81 series does not compare to the 8G or 9G Kuro's in black level, contrast ratio, detail, depth, color accuracy and of course, off angle viewing.

I am including Samsung's LN52A650 or LN52A750 as I hope the successor to the 81 series will have a shot at the golden ring.

-Robert




Warder yes the PDP-5010 would be better then panasonic to begain with but you are probably have a hard time finding it that model, Even if you did find it the new 9g PDP-5020 would be better because msrp wise its cheaper and street price should be the same or slightless. also the new 9g is better PQ.

Forgive my plasma ignorance, but what is the difference between the PDP-5010FD and the PDP-5020FD? Google made them out to be pretty similar. Wouldn't the lesser one of those be a better swap for the Panasonic?

For me I'd just be happy with the LCD's clumped together and the plasma's clumped together. When I was shopping, I never really compared the 2 against each other. I researched each technology learning each ones advantages and disadvantages, then made my pick. Once I had picked a technology I then dove into the PQ and side by side comparisons. But then I might just be odd.

I wonder if there will be a Mitsubishi 244 series LCD in the mix. Not necessarily on the main wall, but represented somewhere. I mention them because they offer excellent connectivity (a big thing with me) and they represent Mitsubishi's top LCDs. I saw one a while back at Magnolia/BB but it wasn't set up right and looked like an attempt on the store's part to blind people.

I would be pleased to see one there, probably the LT-52244.

Robert, which BD player will you be using in the shoot out...

It seems most AVSers have the PS3, so I would think that is a logical choice as a player?

On another note, hiding the bezels sounds like it would be entertaining, but it won't help me evaluate the sets or pick a favorite. I may be a minority voice on this, but I'd like to know what I'm looking at when I'm looking at it.


That can easily lead to bias.

That can easily lead to bias.

A legitimate possibility, depending on the person. But even a hidden-bezel evaluation may not overcome deep-seated bias, if one has it. Many people are biased by reviews and talk (such as on these threads), sometimes without having even seen the sets. I haven't seen any of the probable sets in the shootout set up properly, in a proper environment, or next to each other; I haven't seen most of them, period. And though I had a favorable inclination toward a 5020 (based upon reviews of and personal experience with the 8G sets), it has been tempered by the lack of connectivity and reports of questionable SD quality.

For me, knowing what I'm looking at is part of the evaluation process, as this provides important information which I'll still need even after the reveal. PQ is only part of the equation.

For me, knowing what I'm looking at is part of the evaluation process, as this provides important information which I'll still need even after the reveal. PQ is only part of the equation.

Even if the bezels are covered, at some point, the visitors from Japan are going to associate themselves with a few of the display panels and tip their hands regarding the Pioneer panels.

What I am trying to imagine is how they will respond to what is likely to be significant criticism for some of the limitations that are inherent in and were introduced with the xx20 models. Heck, they will probably feel so bad that they will offer every attendee $1000 off of the low, low street price for the xx20 model of choice. Okay, so I am fantasizing a wee bit...:rolleyes:

Looks like we'll have the Elite BDP-05FD BD player.

-Robert

Looks like we'll have the Elite BDP-05FD BD player.

-Robert
That's totally awesome, Robert.

Now go to sleep!

Even if the bezels are covered, at some point, the visitors from Japan are going to associate themselves with a few of the display panels and tip their hats regarding the Pioneer panels.

What I am trying to imagine is how they will respond to what is likely to be significant criticism for some of the limitations that are inherent in and were introduced with the xx20 models. Heck, they will probably feel so bad that they will offer every attendee $1000 off of the low, low street price for the xx20 model of choice. Okay, so I am fantasizing a wee bit...:rolleyes:

I suppose it doesn't matter, in the end, whether the bezels are covered or not. Based upon my needs and preferences, the best balance of PQ and features will get my vote (provided I can afford it), regardless of brand.

Even if the bezels are covered, at some point, the visitors from Japan are going to associate themselves with a few of the display panels and tip their hands regarding the Pioneer panels.

What I am trying to imagine is how they will respond to what is likely to be significant criticism for some of the limitations that are inherent in and were introduced with the xx20 models. Heck, they will probably feel so bad that they will offer every attendee $1000 off of the low, low street price for the xx20 model of choice. Okay, so I am fantasizing a wee bit...:rolleyes:

Wow, that's a great "dream". I was hoping if enough people are willing to buy them on the spot, we are going to get a volume discount. "Dream-On". :D

Any chance of adding the latest Vizio panel to the shoot-out? I think this would help the Vizio fanboys understand how the Vizio really stacks up.:rolleyes:\

Mike

Robert please PM me with availability of seating left (Dates & Times). I live in the Bronx & would love to attend the AVS Forum Seating..

Thanks
BFJ

I'm much too far away to attend but...I'm looking forward to the results and general consensus. I just hope that fear of offending fanboys of certain brands doesn't doesn't prevent you from posting the REAL results. Please don't try to be diplomatic or water down criticism that certain sets might face..;)

It would be interesting to see an LG 60PG60 at the shootout. See if LG has finally produced a display that can compete with the traditionally better brands. The black levels on the 60 inch are supposed to be very good. Apparently the 50 inch version has lighter blacks, so the 60 inch would be a better showcase of LGs technology.

Any chance of adding the latest Vizio panel to the shoot-out? I think this would help the Vizio fanboys understand how the Vizio really stacks up.:rolleyes:\

Mike

After an hour of viewing Chinese panels you get hungry for premium panels. ;)

Robert please PM me with availability of seating left (Dates & Times). I live in the Bronx & would love to attend the AVS Forum Seating..

Thanks
BFJ

Friday, 7/18 at 7:00 PM and Saturday at 11:00 AM for our AVS Forum special presentations. BTW, Kevin is our ISF calibrator and the second speaker on our panel of expert presenters.

It would be interesting to see an LG 60PG60 at the shootout. See if LG has finally produced a display that can compete with the traditionally better brands. The black levels on the 60 inch are supposed to be very good. Apparently the 50 inch version has lighter blacks, so the 60 inch would be a better showcase of LGs technology.

For this shoot-out, all plasma panels are 50", and the LCDs are 52"

-Robert

Any chance of getting a mitsubishi laser dlp?Lots of stuff on this lately makes me wonder if this will truely be a contender against Pioneer for a lower price with less power needs?

For this shoot-out, all plasma panels are 50", and the LCDs are 52"



The laser tv's smallest size is 65", so it really isn't in the same class as the others in the shoot out. Plus, it's a slimmed down rear projection DLP, not a flat panel. And, it is not likely to be available by July.

Awesome :D I'll take a seat for Friday July 18th @ 7pm EST...

Once again thanks for putting this together Robert

BFJ

BFJ, ^^ you're in and I'm sure Kevin will be happy to see you again.

BTW, I was able to get a BD copy of some of the interviews Pioneer's exec's had at there Hollywood Kuro facility with Oscar award winning cine photographers, film and audio mixers and editors. You will be interested, educated and impressed with their comments.

-Robert

I'll be interested to get info on power consumption with these sets. That's not always available from product literature or even manuals. Knowing how much juice a set pulls is another factor in making a choice (especially in a building without top-of-the-line wiring).

Robert, curious will the tv's be out of the box settings?

I'll be interested to get info on power consumption with these sets. That's not always available from product literature or even manuals. Knowing how much juice a set pulls is another factor in making a choice (especially in a building without top-of-the-line wiring).

prepress, I like this idea and would like to do it. Does anyone know how we can accurately measure the power consumption?

-Robert

Robert, curious will the tv's be out of the box settings?


Zues, We will show all panels with out of the box standard mode and with Kevin Miller's (http://www.isftv.com/) ISF calibrated settings.

Robert, try buying a Kill-A-Watt meter. They are used pretty extensively in benchmarks exactly for that purpose.

Robert, try buying a Kill-A-Watt meter. They are used pretty extensively in benchmarks exactly for that purpose.

And, if all else fails, there should be information on the rear panel of each set, even if no more than the maximum power consumption. Recent Panasonics (I don't remember which models) had a max consumption of 690, which is scary to me. For the record, the 5020 manual says the power requirement is 436 watts, .02 standby. The 52" Sharp SE manual says power consumption is 302 watts, .06 standby. It's unclear if these amounts are maximum, average, or constant. Would it be safest to assume any figures offered by product literature or manuals are maximum numbers? Any info we glean is helpful though, however we get it. The meter's a nice idea.

So far we have PRO-111FD, PDP-5010FD, PDP-5020FD, Samsung LN52A650, Toshiba 52XF550U and Sharp LC-52SE94U That fills our shoot-out wall. We can swap any panel(s) so post your votes for substitute panels.

Personally I would skip the 5010 as it's last year's model (and is already very difficult to find new), add the Panny 800U, and eliminate one of the LCD's and add the Samsung PNA650 (or A550) models. The 800U, A550 and Pio's seem to be the most compared sets on this forum in terms of plasmas. Might be interesting to see one of the top of the line LCD's as well to see how they compare, but I'm sure most here (given it's the Plasma forum!) want to see as many Plasma's as possible on the wall. The A550 can take up the "low end" of the price spectrum, with the Elite the high-end. Would make for some interesting comparisons from a price/performance ratio perspective as well.

Zues, We will show all panels with out of the box standard mode and with Kevin Miller's (http://www.isftv.com/) ISF calibrated settings.

How will this happen? I.e., Kevin will have to go into the SM to calibrate these sets, which will alter the OOTB modes? Unless you're going to have him pre-calibrate all the sets, put them all back to default SM's and view OOTB modes, then adjust all the SM parameters back to calibrated modes and view again?

Robert, any chance you could get your hands on a Signature? I know they're not out yet, but maybe your Pio contacts could help. I think for people using the shoot-out to help with purchase decisions, this would be even more useful than the 5010.

Personally I would skip the 5010 as it's last year's model (and is already very difficult to find new), add the Panny 800U, and eliminate one of the LCD's and add the Samsung PNA650 (or A550) models. The 800U, A550 and Pio's seem to be the most compared sets on this forum in terms of plasmas. Might be interesting to see one of the top of the line LCD's as well to see how they compare, but I'm sure most here (given it's the Plasma forum!) want to see as many Plasma's as possible on the wall. The A550 can take up the "low end" of the price spectrum, with the Elite the high-end. Would make for some interesting comparisons from a price/performance ratio perspective as well.

+1

I second your point. Since this is a plasma shoot-out, and is advertised as such, it is legitimate to exclude LCDs if one so chooses. Perhaps a plasma vs. LCD shoot-out could occur as a follow-up, with the winners of the LCD shootout put up against the winning plasmas. The XBR8 would surely be available by the time such an event took place.

That's a great idea: the best LCD(s) vs the best plasma(s) as a second round. In the first round though, it just seems like apples vs oranges.

I'd love to see the samsung a650 and lg pg60 in there vs the Pios and Panny, and those seem more important to me than any LCD, at least initially.

Whatever models you choose, if you can get real life power readings on similar sized units playing the same material, you will really be doing the world a huge service. (Kill-a-watt meters can be had for ~$20.)

Bless you Robert for setting this up. I can hardly wait to see the results.

Robert, any chance you could get your hands on a Signature? I know they're not out yet, but maybe your Pio contacts could help. I think for people using the shoot-out to help with purchase decisions, this would be even more useful than the 5010.

Robert, Vashti has a great idea here! Hopefully your contacts can help make this happen.

Robert, I third the motion, and it would add a lot of info & guidance for us folks interested in the Sigs.

I'd love to see the samsung a650 and lg pg60 in there vs the Pios and Panny, and those seem more important to me than any LCD, at least initially.

I totally agree with that, no matter how LG is not looked at very well here, why not give a chance to the 50PG60 since Robert said it was a 50" shoot-out?

Any chance of adding the latest Vizio panel to the shoot-out? I think this would help the Vizio fanboys understand how the Vizio really stacks up.:rolleyes:\

Mike

Vizio is a rebadger that buys it panel components from someone else and assembles them and they create nothing worthy of a shootout as the components are not truly Vizio. The Vizio plasma I saw could've been shot to a dumpster where it belongs.:)

I'll bet they won't have the Kuro next to a window or anything like that - lets see a Kuro next to a Samsung 750 in daylight and see who wipes the floor with realtime daytime viewing and BTW Robert I do not agree with you on the Kuro and I know that UMR has calibrated the Samsungs and I don't believe he agrees with you either.

Robert, I third the motion, and it would add a lot of info & guidance for us folks interested in the Sigs.

What would the benefit of having a 111 and 101 be? They have the same exact panel and are both capable of being fully isf calibrated. I am against this idea, I think it would be better to have a different panel in the mix instead of using up two spots with the same tv.

^^ Sharp is dumpster material also ;) Vizio would destroy it with NON blue blacks in a dark environment. Sharp is not even on the map compared to samsungs and sony's :( :)

DvD upscaled on a vizio for the haters. :)



http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7222/55410951qo7.jpg

While not many folks viewing the results of the shoot-out will be in the market for/or have access to a new 5010, some folks who already have the 5010 may be interested to learn how much of a difference there is between last year's model and this year's in order to inform whether it's worth their while to consider an upgrade. Including it offers one benchmark to show how the 9G has improved over the 8G.

What would the benefit of having a 111 and 101 be? They have the same exact panel and are both capable of being fully isf calibrated. I am against this idea, I think it would be better to have a different panel in the mix instead of using up two spots with the same tv.

To me, the Sigs are a different animal altogether. They are actually classified as a monitor, w/hand-picked glass & supposedly better components. Also, there are features that are lacking in the Elites as well some calibration that is unique. Just a guess, but I can chance it & predict that the Signature monitors may end up setting the PQ bar for all 2008 displays. Seems like a very good reason for comparing it to what else is in the top tier display marketplace.

To me, the Sigs are a different animal altogether. They are actually classified as a monitor, w/hand-picked glass & supposedly better components. Also, there are features that are lacking in the Elites as well some calibration that is unique. Just a guess, but I can chance it & predict that the Signature monitors may end up setting the PQ bar for all 2008 displays. Seems like a very good reason for comparing it to what else is in the top tier display marketplace.

The way I understood it, the features available in the 101 do not affect picture quality. When calibrated, the 111 and 101 should be the same, that is why i think it is a waste to have both at the shootout. If you want the features the 101 offers, you can get that set, but as far as pq the 111 should give the same representation. Can any knowledgable people confirm?

Robert, I third the motion, and it would add a lot of info & guidance for us folks interested in the Sigs.

But wouldn't it likely be a pre-production model? I'd rather see a currently or recently available TV. I think signatures don't come out until September. I think.