Earlier tonight, during Deal or No Deal I noticed the ad text of the NBC bug was ti the right instead of on top. Now, during the Tonight Show I notice that the NBC bug is 4:3 safe. The bug is still on the left side of the screen and there is currently no ad on Jay Leno(there usually isn't). I'll have to wait until Conan to see how they are handling letterboxed shows. Looks like this trend of 4:3 safe bugs is here to stay(for now). Like I've said, it's better than the alternative: a separate SD 4:3 network feed that may require a bandwidth-eating subchannel.

Who do you think is next: ABC or FOX?

I see it too. NBC is so big on letterboxing, and yet there it is, 4:3 safe on Conan. Why in the world is it 4:3 safe?

Ugh, and here I thought we were making progress. The shift should be to letterbox, not to 4:3 safe.

Late Night has the spam text next to the logo and the text size is bigger:
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/5779/snapshot200805230002lo6.th.jpg (http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200805230002lo6.jpg):mad::rolleyes:
NBC needs to stop with this promotion text crap. They can leave it 24 hours a day and I'm still not going to watch Nashville Star.
Back to CBS for a text free Late Late Show.

They might as well just banner up the bottom third of the screen and run video adverts throughout shows. That watermark is worse than The CW.

I see it too. NBC is so big on letterboxing, and yet there it is, 4:3 safe on Conan. Why in the world is it 4:3 safe?

Ugh, and here I thought we were making progress. The shift should be to letterbox, not to 4:3 safe.

Oh, but they're doing both. Conan is letterboxed and with a 4:3 safe, ad laden bug in SD. This is seriously wtf. Surely this is just a mistake like the way the bug kept jumping around when they first moved it to the left. How could anyone think this makes sense?

That is absolutely [...] I can't even think of words to describe why the bug on a letterbox feed is 4:3 safe. Only thing I can think of is NBC used the same graphics for SD and HD. They just letterboxed 16:9 and sent it out. Now, they decided to protect for 4:3 and they are still sending out that feed. Really, NBC did it right this season: make graphics on HD fit the screen and send the same thing letterboxed for SD.

And I can't believe they are advertising Nashville Star on June 9th :eek: We get to see this for the next 15 days or so.

I guess we will know if the bug is going to stay in the 4:3 area during HD shows when SNL airs.
Other then SNL, the next prime time show in HD is Sunday at 9pm.

There wasn't any letterboxed programming on tonight. Just Deal or No Deal and Last Comic Standing. They decided to roll out the new bug today and WHOOPS!!! It's in the wrong spot.

I think if they are going 4:3 safe they should at least put the bug on the right side of the screen. Keep it consistent with other networks. It looks worse on the left side and even more worse with that big cluster f**k in the middle of the screen.

I'll accept the 4:3 safe bug. Just get rid of the ad text and move it to the right side. If this left side ad cluster f**k keeps up, I'll be watching less NBC than ever(if that's even possible).

Now the guests legs are getting spamed with an ad for NBC programming:
http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/7307/snapshot200805230003ek5.th.jpg (http://img379.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200805230003ek5.jpg):rolleyes:

ABC has moved the credits to the 4x3 safe area. They haven't moved the bug yet...

I'll bet the guests are real happy about that :rolleyes: At least on CBS the bug is over in the corner by the desk, not over the guest. Real classy, NBC!

ABC has moved the credits to the 4x3 safe area. They haven't moved the bug yet...

Weren't the credits always 4:3 safe? I know a few shows(Lost comes to mind) have their opening credits not 4:3 safe. I assume that will be changing on future episodes or if repeats are shown.

What we are hearing from NBC is that the DBS companies are starting to convert equipment at local collection facilities to use digital signals for the SD Local into Local instead of analog. There is some info on this, including a schedule of when they are working in each market, on the MSTV website. The "Satellite Coordination Schedule" link is the one that lists the dates.

http://mstv.org/cablesat.php

Unfortunately the bug is in the 4:3 area now to allow for the satellite and cable to center cut and downconvert.

So let's say for example,
If Direct TV is using a center cut of the WNBC-DT HD feed for their SD WNBC feed.
What happens with a show like Late Night or SNL that is framed for 16:9?
Are the going to go back to framing the show and credits for 4:3?

What we are hearing from NBC is that the DBS companies are starting to convert equipment at local collection facilities to use digital signals for the SD Local into Local instead of analog. There is some info on this, including a schedule of when they are working in each market, on the MSTV website. The "Satellite Coordination Schedule" link is the one that lists the dates.

http://mstv.org/cablesat.php

Unfortunately the bug is in the 4:3 area now to allow for the satellite and cable to center cut and downconvert.

Thanks for the heads-up!

I question the wisdom of center-cutting programming that is composed only for 16x9, such as Conan. For the sake of those who watch SD affiliates on DBS, I hope that there will be no further mutilation of NBC's 16x9 only programming.

Ben

The show elements of Conan are not yet 4:3 safe. The Late Night logo along with the right side of the screen credits at the end are cut off. I set my TV to center cut to see how it looks. Also the TV rating bug is cut off. I did see a 4:3 safe commercial. Must be a new one b/c another one was not.

I can't wait to see what's happening to old episodes of SNL already filmed this year. Although it shouldn't be too hard, since there really wouldn't be much lost, unless there are wide shots of many people on stage. The over-the-shoulders on Weekend Update and lower thirds in some skits will be trouble since they were designed for 16:9 and they probably cannot make new graphics since it was recorded from a live broadcast.

Will the local stations in bigger markets still provide an SD feed to local cable companies or will the cable companies have to down convert the HD feeds to SD?

What we are hearing from NBC is that the DBS companies are starting to convert equipment at local collection facilities to use digital signals for the SD Local into Local instead of analog. There is some info on this, including a schedule of when they are working in each market, on the MSTV website. The "Satellite Coordination Schedule" link is the one that lists the dates.

http://mstv.org/cablesat.php

Unfortunately the bug is in the 4:3 area now to allow for the satellite and cable to center cut and downconvert.

It's not just DBS. The ABC, CBS, and Fox affiliates are doing the same thing on Comcast Charlottesville.

That actually makes sense. Unfortunately this means it wasn't an error and it's not going back to letterbox. We need a law that mandates letterbox.

It almost seems like in going digital TV is now taking a step backwards as broadcasters are just going to make all production elements 4:3 safe.

It would be nice if whoever provides the down convert feed of the local HD channels would just letter box the 16:9 shows.

It wouldn't surprise me if we see 4:3 safe everything for the next 10 years.

Actually, I believe the "first reported sighting" of NBC's 4:3-safe bug placement on the left side of the screen, including advertising/promo garbage, was back on 4/12 during the "Miss USA" show. That must have been the "official rollout".

According to my post the day after in that thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13624363&postcount=27):

"What bothered me the most was the placement of the NBC logo (with promo for "Biggest Loser Finale" emblazoned above the Olympic rings), inside what would be the 4:3 zone on the left. How obtrusive can you get?

"Consequently, the girls kept "walking right through the logo" (especially noticeable during the swimsuit competition when you really were trying to look at them) since that 4:3-safe framing was also how they placed camera shots. In other words, main content was never outside the 4:3 frame, and when the subject was on the left they were literally right over the logo.

"To make it even worse, there was a large "LIVE" on the top part of the screen above the NBC logo, also within 4:3-safe frame.

"So both of these horrible artifacts were always in our immediate field of vision as we looked at something in the middle of the screen, and were VERY VERY OBVIOUS!"

"Ridiculous, not to move bug and LIVE graphics far to the left in the 16:9 area for 16:9 viewers when producing a 16:9 version of a show."


Even more insulting to the viewers, as has already been pointed out, is to do this to letterboxed shows as well, where there really is only a 16:9 presentation and there's absolutely no justification for this garbage.

My remarks about the girls walking right through the NBC logo is the same comment as highlighted by the screenshot above of Kevin Spacey sitting on the couch, with his legs obscured by the NBC logo. How absolutely rude of NBC to their onair personalities and their guests.

I wonder what NBC will do with their HD-Olympics coverage, both on NBC-DT and UHD?

Last time the humongously gigantic and enoromous "Universal HD" logo seemed to take up 10% of the screen, for content shown/re-shown on UHD. I wonder if they'll trim that down this time, and perhaps make it much more transparent.

Somehow, I doubt it.

Virtually zero probability that they will be as subtle and tasteful and respectful of the content as CBS is when they air "The Masters". That network moves the CBS eye to the upper right corner of the screen (upper-right of the 16:9 area) and makes it about 95% transparent so that you don't look at it and are not distracted by it, nor does it detract at all from the glorious HDTV pictures of the golf tournament itself which is, after all, what is being covered by the telecast!


NOTE: with the departure of "Las Vegas", there is now NOT ONE SHOW ON NBC THAT I WATCH!!! NEVER! ZERO (other than the Olympics). And this logo-placing don't-give-a-crap-for-the-viewers attitude is another example of why not (aside from no programming worth watching, and the lowest audio level of any network in LA).

It wouldn't surprise me if we see 4:3 safe everything for the next 10 years.
sadly i agree but not entirely.
With the analog turnoff of broadcasting transmitters in Feb. 2009 if all channels went letterbox on consumer's 4:3 tvs there would be mass outrage.
i think we will slowly have more primetime programming start to frame for 16:9 without protecting for 4:3 and probably by 2014 five years after digital broadcasting was mandated that 4:3 sd feeds may be a letterbox downconvert.
part of it is International syndication of programming which has no 2009 dtv mandate. As hdtvs and Blu-ray disc sales take off more people will accept and embraceTHAT full screen called "widescreen".

What we are hearing from NBC is that the DBS companies are starting to convert equipment at local collection facilities to use digital signals for the SD Local into Local instead of analog. There is some info on this, including a schedule of when they are working in each market, on the MSTV website. The "Satellite Coordination Schedule" link is the one that lists the dates.

Please tell NBC (since you are hearing from them) to just nuke the d*** promo bug, now even more annoying in the 4:3 "safe area" and the never-ending snipes for their programming. They like the other networks, get more than enough opportunites to plug their crappy shows during commercial breaks and end credits, leave program content alone.

If NBC doesn't fix this by Fall then the few shows left that I do watch on NBC (Chuck, Heroes ...) will be off my record list. I won't watch an HD show with bugs and promo crap stuck permanently in the middle of the screen. That's the reason I took Supernatural and Reaper of my watch list for The CW.

I'll wait for the DVD or find a 16:9 source from a country that doesn't use backwards thinking bugs.

Please tell NBC (since you are hearing from them) to just nuke the d*** promo bug... and please move it over to the RIGHT side of the frame, where there is typically no important subject matter to stomp on.

Given that it's now sort of whitish and much more opaque than it used to be (which was much more transparent), can't they get it out of our direct line-of-sight trying to watch something on the screen?

I'm a'feared that they'll bring back the multi-colored fully-opaque logo and/or rings for the Olympics, making it even that much more intolerable given where it is and how large it now is.

It wouldn't surprise me if we see 4:3 safe everything for the next 10 years.

I am not so sure of that. Many networks and stations are going to implement AFD as soon as they can to combat the center cut issue.

... and please move it over to the RIGHT side of the frame, where there is typically no important subject matter to stomp on.I like it better on the left.....

Next step: one bug in the 4:3 area and another in the 16:9 area advertising an HD show.

Next step: one bug in the 4:3 area and another in the 16:9 area advertising an HD show.

WWE already does this for HD programming.

Next step: one bug in the 4:3 area and another in the 16:9 area advertising an HD show.

or make the 4:3 area one giant bug and have the show in a PiP-sized window in the corner.

The spam text is back to the right of the logo for Late Night with Conan O'Brien :rolleyes:
I'm watching The Late Late Show on CBS till they get rid of the spam text.

Once again the bug is 4:3 safe AND letterboxed. I'm guessing it will stay that way until they stop sending out shows in letterbox. I hope they stop letterboxing soon.

The spam text is back to the right of the logo for Late Night with Conan O'Brien :rolleyes:
I'm watching The Late Late Show on CBS till they get rid of the spam text.

And it looks even more ridiculous on the letterboxed SD feed.

Conan was doing a split-screen skit in the opening of the show and part of the graphics stating he was in NY during a fake "live shot" were in the cutoff zone. Looks like the conan show didn't get the memo that things are changing.

At least Letterman and Leno always keep everything 4:3 safe.

Several of the other elements of the show are not safe. The Conan logos that are on B4/after commercials are slightly cut off.

Camera shots look OK.

last nite during lenos monologue the bug wasnt there....but afterwards it was.

I can't wrap my head around the decision to previously exclude Leno from the bug advertising. Of all shows where I wouldn't mind seeing a bug, talk is at the top of the list. Yet NBC seems to think it's OK to insert distracting promos into drama series whose main goal is to immerse the viewer.

Just crazy.

Watching the basketball game on ABC-DT, I see that ABC continues to respect the viewer as well as the content. They have their "ABC-HD" logo at the extreme lower right corner of the 16:9 area. In fact, if you don't have your overscan set right it might even be partially cut off.

Furthermore, it's about 98% transparent... almost invisible. I mean you have to really look hard to see it.

Yes, there's the usual array of colorful score/stats-bar and other graphics from ESPN near the bottom of the screen, 4:3 safe. But that's to be expected.

However regarding the network bug, ABC is the best! On sports programming as well as on scripted shows (e.g. "Lost"), they are considerate enough to keep this item small, nearly transparent, and well out of the way of the main content on screen. And if it's a 16:9 content, the bug is placed accordingly.

Kudos to ABC.

Looks like

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/2643/snapshot20080524182723io9.th.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot20080524182723io9.jpg)

However regarding the network bug, ABC is the best! On sports programming as well as on scripted shows (e.g. "Lost"), they are considerate enough to keep this item small, nearly transparent, and well out of the way of the main content on screen. And if it's a 16:9 content, the bug is placed accordingly.

Kudos to ABC.Enjoy it while you can. ABC's SD clutter shows what's to come on HD. With the shutoff, 4:3 bugs are likely to become the norm.

Think ABC will have the bug moved next week, in time for the Lost finale? ;)

ABC is revamping their network delivery system to MPEG4. It wouldn't surprise me to see it moved by the start of the 2008 fall season. The analog cutoff is unfortunately pressing the issue.

Once again, the bug is up in the 4:3 area on SNL, even though the show graphics are not all 4:3 safe. If a station used the center cut feed tonight, some of the graphics(like the fake CSPAN at the beginning) would be cut off.

Yes, but NBC doesn't care if the in-show graphics are 4:3 safe, so long as the bug and promo are plastered on the screen.

I honestly can't believe there are that many viewers receiving a down-converted center cut that this could possibly make any difference in the world. As if anyone watches a television station these days without knowing which channel it is in the first place. Especially the local stations.

Yes, but NBC doesn't care if the in-show graphics are 4:3 safe, so long as the bug and promo are plastered on the screen.

I honestly can't believe there are that many viewers receiving a down-converted center cut that this could possibly make any difference in the world. As if anyone watches a television station these days without knowing which channel it is in the first place. Especially the local stations.

It will when the SD analog feed goes away. The way the bug used to be, part of the advertising text would be cut off when center cut. Of course another solution to that would be get rid of the ad text. But you are correct. AN advertisement for Nashville Star on June 9 is extremely unnecessary.

Presumably networks are moving their HD bugs into 4:3 because they realise that many 4:3 viewers will soon be watching a 4:3 centre cut of their 16:9 HD feed using digital converter boxes, once the 4:3 analogue OTA service is switched off?

Because there is no mandate for usage of AFDs (which would allow a broadcaster to control 4:3 presentation by the box remotely) they have to assume a 4:3 centre cut...

Interesting that graphics aren't 4:3 safe on 16:9 shows - over here the UK national graphic safe areas for 16:9 shows are effectively 4:3 centre cut safe - though don't allow for much 4:3 overscan. Particularly important for 16:9 news (imagine the NOT of NOT GUILTY being chopped off in 4:3 to see the potential issues) and commercials - where small print has to be seen by all viewers.

There's no (good) reason to plan for a 4:3 center-cut image. If they (collectively) had half a brain, they'd letterbox, not crop. It will coincide with the analog shutoff, so it will just be perceived as a side effect of the transition. The learning curve will be negligible.

Cropping will lead to numerous additional months, or years, of continued confusion over aspect ratios.

Here's the deal: NBC has started the DTV transition. Bugs, snipes, and promos are all 4:3 safe as of 5/22. NBC's programs will be 4:3 safe this fall.

Right now, the networks and stations provide two, independent program feeds - a 16:9 feed on the digital channel and a 4:3 version on analog. This allows them to deliver aspect ratios appropriate to each channel - graphics designed for 16:9 on DT and a center cut or letterbox on analog. All of that ends on February 18, 2009. There will only be one feed - 16:9 digital. TV sets, converter boxes, and the cable and satellite companies will use that feed to handle analog sets. If someone with a 4:3 TV set center cuts the 16:9 feed, which most will do, then graphics outside 4:3 safe will be cut off.

Letterboxing on 4:3 is not a good choice at this time because programs not produced in wide screen format - and there are still many such shows - would end up postage stamped on the analog side.

There's no need to crop or letterbox a 4:3 feed.

There's no need to crop or letterbox a 4:3 feed.Of course not. But, on February 18, 2009 there won't be any 4:3 feeds. They go away when the analog transmitters are turned off. Everything on the networks will be 16:9 with pillars for native 4:3 content. NBC is merely starting that process now.

Exactly.

If it is a 16:9 program, there's no need for a 4:3 safe bug.

Exactly.

If it is a 16:9 program, there's no need for a 4:3 safe bug.Except the majority of viewers are watching 4:3 downconverts.

Exactly.

If it is a 16:9 program, there's no need for a 4:3 safe bug.
But, what happens when that 16:9 feed is used to produce a 4:3 analog output? If the 16:9 image is center cut, then the graphics get cut off. If it is letterboxed, then native 16:9 content looks fine, but native 4:3 content with side curtains gets displayed with black bars all the way around and a tiny image in the center of the screen - a postage stamp.

So, how do you think this should be handled when TV stations no longer have two channels and no control over how their digital signal is processed to produce a 4:3 image?

Perhaps the SD should be sent as 16:9. Everyone will look skinny which could be a good influence on the ever widening US population.

Perhaps the SD should be sent as 16:9. Everyone will look skinny which could be a good influence on the ever widening US population.

You mean TV shows don't already feature skinny people?

Everything should be sent 16:9 widescreen as part of the transition to digital. If producers decide to develop 4:3 programming for delivery to a 16:9 broadcast medium, that's their option. People that don't want a postage stamp can make sure they have a set top box with a zoom feature. We already have 4:3 programming that uses 16:9 sporadically for artistic reasons. When widescreen households were a minority, there were plenty of cases of letterboxed programming on 4:3 channels that resulted in a postage stamp image. How long should we tailor all programming to the 4:3 crowd that has determined that TV PQ is not a priority?

But to screw up 100% of all programming to accomodate those that have systems that cannot fully appreciate digital programming is asinine. It only prolongs the transition and perpetuates the confusion.

Everything should be sent 16:9 widescreen as part of the transition to digital. If producers decide to develop 4:3 programming for delivery to a 16:9 broadcast medium, that's their option. People that don't want a postage stamp can make sure they have a set top box with a zoom feature.

But to screw up 100% of all programming to accomodate those that have systems that cannot fully appreciate digital programming is asinine. It only prolongs the transition and perpetuates the confusion.It's a business decision. You may feel it is asinine. But, a significant majority of TV viewers still watch on 4:3 sets. If programs are presented in ways that many viewers don't like, they will change channels. Some stations have tried letterboxing native 4:3 content on their analog channels and viewers have made it known they don't like it.

Over time, wide screen will become the norm. But, that's not likely to be the case for another five to ten years. Until then, 4:3 safe center cut is clearly the best approach. 4:3 viewers are not affected. 16:9 viewers have to put up with graphics in the 4:3 area, which is not optimal, but that's the only downside. It would be far worse to send out graphics that are cut-off or programs that are postage stamped for analog viewers.

It is easy for you to say everything should be produced for 16:9 transmission. But, that's an expensive proposition and many shows cannot afford it at this point. Again, over time, the costs of HD production will go down. Those are also business decisions.

By the way, it really doesn't matter whether you or I agree with the decision. My purpose in posting was to explain why NBC has moved the bug and other graphics to the 4:3 safe area at this time.

Yes, but NBC doesn't care if the in-show graphics are 4:3 safe, so long as the bug and promo are plastered on the screen.I'm still very concerned about what they do this summer for the Olympics coverage. This is the HD highlight programming of the sports universe, and to louse it up and distract visually with crap-placed logos and ads/promos should be criminal.

They'll have two opportunities to do something right or wrong, on NBC-DT and UHD, for 16:9 HD-specific presentations both live and replayed. Non-mainstream content presented on their other myriad cable network 4:3 SD choices are not an issue.

NBC certainly has 100% total control over what we see during Olympics coverage... on ALL of these channels and in all markets and delivery systems, and whether they're O&O or affiliates. I believe "special rules apply".

So, any guesses on what we'll see?

Everything should be sent 16:9 widescreen as part of the transition to digital. If producers decide to develop 4:3 programming for delivery to a 16:9 broadcast medium, that's their option. People that don't want a postage stamp can make sure they have a set top box with a zoom feature.

We already have 4:3 programming that uses 16:9 sporadically for artistic reasons. When widescreen households were a minority, there were plenty of cases of letterboxed programming on 4:3 channels that resulted in a postage stamp image. How long should we tailor all programming to the 4:3 crowd that has determined that TV PQ is not a priority?

But to screw up 100% of all programming to accomodate those that have systems that cannot fully appreciate digital programming is asinine.Very well stated. Best verbalized argument I've yet read.

I agree. Newly produced content should be shot, delivered, and viewed 16:9 as the norm, with continued use of old 4:3 cameras/TVs "punished but tolerated via compromise" rather than "accommodated at the expense of 16:9 create/view equipment and audience".

It only prolongs the transition and perpetuates the confusion.Absolutely correct.

Over time, wide screen will become the norm. But, that's not likely to be the case for another five to ten years. Until then, 4:3 safe center cut is clearly the best approach. 4:3 viewers are not affected. 16:9 viewers have to put up with graphics in the 4:3 area, which is not optimal, but that's the only downside.

That isn't the only downside. The biggest downside is as long as networks continue to factor in 4:3 safe areas, the longer it will be until program materal will use that extra real estate offered by 16:9 for anything of value. It will continue to be superfluous space.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. As long as everything is 4:3 safe, producers will be safe to offer 4:3 material.

It would be far worse to send out graphics that are cut-off or programs that are postage stamped for analog viewers.

These are viewers that have determined over the past 10 years that there's no need to invest in better quality television. The same ones who will already be inconvenienced by the digital transition - may as well rip the band aid off and deal with the aches and pains all at the same time instead of dragging it out over 5-10 years.

It is easy for you to say everything should be produced for 16:9 transmission. But, that's an expensive proposition and many shows cannot afford it at this point.

Hogwash. It takes no more money to format for 16:9 than it does in 4:3.

Because there is no mandate for usage of AFDs (which would allow a broadcaster to control 4:3 presentation by the box remotely) they have to assume a 4:3 centre cut...

Even though there is no mandate to do AFD, many broadcasters will in the next year or two. The migration is starting now but in the short time, center cut is the only option until that is instituted.

Are there any receivers in America that check for AFD?

That isn't the only downside. The biggest downside is as long as networks continue to factor in 4:3 safe areas, the longer it will be until program materal will use that extra real estate offered by 16:9 for anything of value. It will continue to be superfluous space.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. As long as everything is 4:3 safe, producers will be safe to offer 4:3 material.
Networks, TV stations, and advertisers have already decided they cannot afford to force this change right now. You may not agree with that decision. But, it's the one they have made. This will resolve itself over time as analog sets disappear.

These are viewers that have determined over the past 10 years that there's no need to invest in better quality television. The same ones who will already be inconvenienced by the digital transition - may as well rip the band aid off and deal with the aches and pains all at the same time instead of dragging it out over 5-10 years.Regardless, these viewers pay the bills. If they go to stations that format in a way that works on their current sets, then those stations succeed and the ones that screw up the 4:3 image fail. That's the business decision that's been made.

Hogwash. It takes no more money to format for 16:9 than it does in 4:3.Aside from local news, I am not aware of any shows that shoot in 16:9 SD. Productions go widescreen as part of the switch to HD. That's the expensive part.

Is there a reason you refuse to respond to the business issues that are driving this process? If it's not business, why do you suppose NBC is moving its graphics back out of the 16:9 space? I don't disagree at all with your preference for proper use of the 16:9 space, both as a viewer and as a content producer. But, I understand there is more than aesthetics involved here.

Are there any receivers in America that check for AFD?Very few. NBC has asked its stations to lobby cable and satellite companies to install AFD-capable equipment as part of the upgrades being done for the DTV transition. AFD would handle most of these issues. But, it's not going to happen in time for the analog shut-off.

Are there any receivers in America that check for AFD?

One major network, (whom it's not my place to speak for), doesn't feel AFD can be consistently and reliably implemented for a variety of reasons, one being the fact that virtually all of the current receivers don't support it.

That isn't the only downside. The biggest downside is as long as networks continue to factor in 4:3 safe areas, the longer it will be until program materal will use that extra real estate offered by 16:9 for anything of value. It will continue to be superfluous space.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. As long as everything is 4:3 safe, producers will be safe to offer 4:3 material.

In fact, given how the Powers That Be have screwed up this transition, it won't be until after 2020 before anything every happens outside the 4:3 area on advertiser-supported television.

The only true 16x9 content will be movies (because they are framed for a different medium), sports (because the peripheral action is helpful even when the image is centered on the more important action), and HBO and Showtime TV programs (because their viewership will have widescreen TVs).

Remember that every message on AVS Forum was typed with a "QWERTY" keyboard designed to slow up the typing of 1920's typists so that typewriters wouldn't jam. During WWII, the Navy ordered a changeover to a new logical, fast keyboard design and higher-ups vetoed it.

Set-top converter boxes should have been outlawed, instead of subsidized.

I am not aware of any shows that shoot in 16:9 SD.I believe "So You Think You Can Dance" is shot in 16:9 480i SD, upconverted by Fox to 720p. It happens to look terrific. Fools most folks who swear it's HD.

I believe "So You Think You Can Dance" is shot in 16:9 480i SD, upconverted by Fox to 720p.

Yep. Also "Hell's Kitchen," "COPS," "Don't Forget The Lyrics!" and "FOX News Sunday" just to name a few more.

I believe "So You Think You Can Dance" is shot in 16:9 480i SD, upconverted by Fox to 720p. It happens to look terrific. Fools most folks who swear it's HD.I don't doubt there are a few. But, just a few. For whatever reason, nearly all producers have decided to go all or nothing - HD or 4:3 SD.

As for quality, which is a different issue, Fox tried 16:9 SD for baseball and that didn't satisfy anyone. HD viewers knew it wasn't HD and SD viewers were watching 4:3 and could have cared less. It's pretty easy to spot the SD handhelds on golf telecasts, too. The Masters is all HD now and I believe the majors on NBC have stopped using SD handhelds as well.

Fox tried 16:9 SD for baseball and that didn't satisfy anyone. HD viewers knew it wasn't HD ...

A surprising number of people -- even those who frequent an enthusiast forum like this -- mistake widescreen SD for HD. It's kind of disturbing actually.

So, how do you think this should be handled when TV stations no longer have two channels and no control over how their digital signal is processed to produce a 4:3 image?

Honestly, I don't give a damn about what happens to SD. Let them watch a windowboxed image. Due to a lack of HD, we have to watch 4:3 shows with sidebars. Let them do the same. Maybe enough complaining(since people apparently cannot stand letterbox bars) would cause an increase in HD 16:9 and 16:9 digital programming.

Or maybe the damn affiliates and converter box makers could communicate for once and take advantage of AFD. I would be more understanding of this if the technology did not exist. But it does. USE IT!!

I had no idea NBC was doing this. But I guess that's because I'm already stopped watching NBC because of all of the crap they put on the screen.

I don't doubt there are a few. But, just a few. For whatever reason, nearly all producers have decided to go all or nothing - HD or 4:3 SD.

As for quality, which is a different issue, Fox tried 16:9 SD for baseball and that didn't satisfy anyone. HD viewers knew it wasn't HD and SD viewers were watching 4:3 and could have cared less. It's pretty easy to spot the SD handhelds on golf telecasts, too. The Masters is all HD now and I believe the majors on NBC have stopped using SD handhelds as well.
The Masters have been all HD for years, not just "now". CBS golf has been all HD for I think 2 1/2 years now. They did a mixture of HD/SD and because of the outcries of the mixture (some here) they were in SD for an entire season.

NBC is just now going all HD.

Aside from local news, I am not aware of any shows that shoot in 16:9 SD. Productions go widescreen as part of the switch to HD. That's the expensive part.

Is there a reason you refuse to respond to the business issues that are driving this process? If it's not business, why do you suppose NBC is moving its graphics back out of the 16:9 space? I don't disagree at all with your preference for proper use of the 16:9 space, both as a viewer and as a content producer. But, I understand there is more than aesthetics involved here.

You said it was an expensive proposition. I'm not talking about how many currently do it, only that it would be inexpensive (no extra cost) to do so. Of course not many do it now because the vast majority have moved to HDTV. For the balance, there has been no reason to do so. The majority of the few remaining 4:3 shows would do it if they knew that all presentations after the transition would be delivered in 16:9. They can drag their feet moving to HD for financial reasons, but there's no reason to give them an excuse to continue dragging their feet when it comes to moving to a 16:9 format.

Honestly, I don't give a damn about what happens to SD.Me neither, personally. I watch as little SD as possible. But, the companies that rely on viewership for their profit margins have to care. And, the majority of viewers are still watching TV on 4:3 sets.

You said it was an expensive proposition. I'm not talking about how many currently do it, only that it would be inexpensive (no extra cost) to do so. Of course not many do it now because the vast majority have moved to HDTV. Really? Most of the soaps (all of them?) are still 4:3. Most of the syndicated shows including Oprah, Dr. Phil, and Ellen are, too (although Oprah is going HD this fall). Many of the primetime reality shows remain 4:3. The same goes for most network and cable news programming, where the shows that have made the switch are still 4:3 for the field work. Primetime and sports is mostly HD now. But, that's not close to being a majority of the programming that airs in a day.

There's another important part of the aspect ratio issue here as well. Many content providers do not want their programs letterboxed on 4:3 sets, even programs that are already done in 16:9. The 14:9 letterboxing that NBC does on the SD side right now is OK for primetime shows like Heroes. But, the true 16:9 letterboxing that will happen in converter boxes or by cable companies will mean bigger black bars and less screen space for content in 4:3. Until we reach a tipping point where HD sets represent a sizeable majority, there are sound business reasons to center cut for analog displays.

I happen to agree with most of your personal opinions, by the way. It seems a shame that SD viewers who don't much care about picture or audio quality are driving this ship. But, unfortunately, that's the business reality.

WWE already does this for HD programming.

Yep.. They have three logos on screen for HD. One for the "WWE HD" logo, the "WWE" logo, and the "USA Network" logo.

One major network, (whom it's not my place to speak for), doesn't feel AFD can be consistently and reliably implemented for a variety of reasons, one being the fact that virtually all of the current receivers don't support it.

I don't see how the encoders that affiliates have right now (other than maybe Fox affiliates) could pass this flag to their encoders. Once the network feed is decoded, all MPEG flags that came with it are lost.

As for quality, which is a different issue, Fox tried 16:9 SD for baseball and that didn't satisfy anyone. HD viewers knew it wasn't HD and SD viewers were watching 4:3 and could have cared less. It's pretty easy to spot the SD handhelds on golf telecasts, too. The Masters is all HD now and I believe the majors on NBC have stopped using SD handhelds as well.The 16:9 SD MLB was delivered as composite video, which will significantly degrade the image compared to component which shows like SYTYCD use. The SD handhelds I saw used on golf did not appear to be 16:9 cameras but rather 4:3 interlaced SD with "DVE" zoom added. This also looks much worse than HD 16:9 cameras downconverted to 16:9 SD. A better example might have been the British Open which didn't look quite as good as HD, still was a better presentation than 4:3 SD. It still required standards conversion which adds some softness to the image, particularly on motion.
I believe "So You Think You Can Dance" is shot in 16:9 480i SD, upconverted by Fox to 720p. It happens to look terrific. Fools most folks who swear it's HD.One reason is that HD cameras are used, which have very good depth of modulation in the higher SD frequencies. The quality needs to be there at the start, and it's important to use a component path to preserve it.

You said it was an expensive proposition. I'm not talking about how many currently do it, only that it would be inexpensive (no extra cost) to do so. Of course not many do it now because the vast majority have moved to HDTV. For the balance, there has been no reason to do so. The majority of the few remaining 4:3 shows would do it if they knew that all presentations after the transition would be delivered in 16:9. They can drag their feet moving to HD for financial reasons, but there's no reason to give them an excuse to continue dragging their feet when it comes to moving to a 16:9 format.It's really up to the producer. Note that while Fox embraces 16:9 SD as an alternative to HD, not all shows are shot that way. An example is "Fifth Grader" which is shot 4:3 SD as is all of Burnett's reality shows. The next Survivor in HD will be a major departure.

As far as I know the majority of displays are not widescreen with the capability of receiving a 16:9 transmission. The likelihood of changing the SD format to 16:9 is slim to none, at least for a long time to come. AFD support is nill on everyone's part from the networks to the stations to the sat/cablecos to the consumer STBs and displays. AFD was a late addition to the ATSC standard. We can't even get the AC3 dialnorm right and that has been part of ATSC from the beginning. By the time AFD is fully supported in the US it may be a moot point as the percentage of displays requiring it could be at a low enough level to no longer be an issue. Until then 4:3 safe will remain a common practice, perhaps even more than it is now due to the fading separate SD distribution.
Honestly, I don't give a damn about what happens to SD. Let them watch a windowboxed image. Due to a lack of HD, we have to watch 4:3 shows with sidebars. Let them do the same. Maybe enough complaining(since people apparently cannot stand letterbox bars) would cause an increase in HD 16:9 and 16:9 digital programming.That may be a possibility when the percentage of 4:3 viewers is sufficiently small, but we're nowhere close to that yet.

I had no idea NBC was doing this. But I guess that's because I'm already stopped watching NBC because of all of the crap they put on the screen.Sort of like polishing a turd.

One major network, (whom it's not my place to speak for), doesn't feel AFD can be consistently and reliably implemented for a variety of reasons, one being the fact that virtually all of the current receivers don't support it.

If it is whom I think you mean, they have said they will institute AFD this summer.

Are there any receivers in America that check for AFD?

This is more for the cableco's benefit since the majority of views are wired and not wireless.

I don't see how the encoders that affiliates have right now (other than maybe Fox affiliates) could pass this flag to their encoders. Once the network feed is decoded, all MPEG flags that came with it are lost.

Part of the standard is to pass the metadata from network through the local station. That has been thought of and implemented.

Maybe TVOD had the right idea - apply a vertical stretch instead of a center-cut. Hate to promote any kind of stretching, but as long as they have to manipulate something, may as well keep all the manipulation to the substandard feed.

The SD handhelds I saw used on golf did not appear to be 16:9 cameras but rather 4:3 interlaced SD with "DVE" zoom added.

Watching the Golf (NBC one) in 16:9 SD here showed a terrible difference between the handheld cameras and those which were native HD (even though I was watching in SD). Countries that use 16:9 SD looks quite decent, far beyond that of what was being seen on the Golf. One thing, I would rather shocking PQ in 16:9 than 4:3 for those heldheld shots, you can't go switching aspect ratios all the time.

Maybe TVOD had the right idea - apply a vertical stretch instead of a center-cut. Hate to promote any kind of stretching, but as long as they have to manipulate something, may as well keep all the manipulation to the substandard feed.If that is in reference to the 16:9 SD suggestion, that is not really stretching as the vertical scaling is still from a higher to lower pixel count: 1080 or 720 to 483. While technically feasible, it defeats the purpose of compatibility with existing 4:3 displays, unless the goal is to make nearly everyone look anorexic or Oprah look normal.

Many networks seem to feel that a forced horizontal stretch of 4:3 programming (even worse, a non-linear horizontal stretch) is an acceptable way to achieve "compatibility" with 16:9 displays. Is everyone being represented inaccurately fatter somehow more acceptable, than inaccurately skinnier (perhaps better for our self-esteem ;) )

16:9'ers have had to put up with all the anomolies in AR presentations during the lead-up to the digital transition - at the point of the transition, that burden should switch over to the 4:3ers.

There's no question that the transition will cause a sh*tstorm of issues with all the 4:3 displays out there. There's also no question that it will never be possible to fully educate the public about the myriad of AR possibilities between the OAR production/delivery/broadcast and the final STB/display manipulation chosen by the end user. However, everyone already understands the difference between widescreen and "square" screen - even if many believe that "wider" is the only difference between SD and HD.

Just my opinion, but the 2009 transition will likely be the only point at which there will be any successful attempt at a widescale education of the consumer regarding an AR change and if it is going to be effective the message has to be simple and it will only sink in on a broad scale if the message is backed up by visual evidence on homeowners displays. "Skinny people" or letterbox bars will just be associated with the widescreen transition and the complaints will eventually subside along with all the other transition issues.

But straddling the fence will only serve to insert one or more mini-transitions into the process without the benefit of a national PSA blitzkrieg to explain what's going on every time they make another move towards fully transitioning to 16:9. It will also provide 4:3 producers with no motivation to convert to a widescreen (even if SD) format choice.

It's unlikely to happen at the transition. It will happen when there are an insufficient amount of 4:3 displays to support. We have a long way to go before that happens. Distorting the image with a different aspect ratio won't just make the viewers unhappy, even worse it will make the advertisers and producers unhappy. The stretching on the HD channels affects a far smaller audience than changing the SD to 16:9 would. Imagine how bad a nonlinear SD squeeze would look.

With a separate SD distribution path, networks and stations had control of how the 16:9 was converted to 4:3. Even with AFD there is less control than with the separate path. NBC and Fox seem to be the frontrunners for AFD support. NBC has been using AFD internally with a single HD path for some time. From what I've read CBS has no interest yet and plans to only use center cut. This seems in line with Les Moonves' reported dislike of letterbox. I haven't heard much about ABC, but judging by the fact that their HD is the least cluttered I would speculate that they are delaying the pain a bit longer than the others plan to.

If it is whom I think you mean, they have said they will institute AFD this summer.


Let's just say I have a memo stating this particular networks' position, and I doubt it's the one you think based on the content of the memo.
And I deal with more than one network.

Besides, how do you deal with two different sources with AFD.. and you do a dissolve through the production switcher..where does the format change occur in in this case? What about with double DVE squeezeback?

Part of the standard is to pass the metadata from network through the local station. That has been thought of and implemented.

Would this information be passed with the feed or separately?

Would this information be passed with the feed or separately?

The AFD data is in the HD-SDI Vertical Ancillary data.

Just when you think NBC can't get any worse,
there's a giant "All New" on the top left side for the show on now :P

I was just about to post about the ALL NEW graphic. As if I'll suddenly stop watching should I suspect it's a repeat.

Just when you think NBC can't get any worse,
there's a giant "All New" on the top left side for the show on now :P

Don't fret...NBC will never disappoint you when it comes to treating it's viewers like complete idiots.

Don't fret...NBC will never disappoint you when it comes to treating it's viewers like complete idiots.Again, this "second ad/promo/obstruction" crap seemed to really start in earnest back in early April, with the HD broadcast of "Miss USA".

From my post in that other thread on April 12, I comment:

"To make it even worse, there was a large "LIVE" on the top part of the screen above the NBC logo, also within 4:3-safe frame."

"LIVE", "ALL NEW"... what 12-year old is now in charge of technical production at NBC???


More contrasts: I was watching "This American Life" on SHO-HD yesterday (I actually do watch content regularly on that channel, as opposed to ZERO on NBC-DT), and once again saw a 98% transparent very small SHOHD logo in the extreme lower-right corner of the 16:9 frame, just as ABC-DT/ESPN(2)HD do it.

Nearly invisible, zero distracting, perfectly effective and acceptable.

(Are those new eps of TAL?)

Putting a bug on a premium channel is never acceptable. Premium channels don't need to constantly remind stupid Nielsen viewers what channel they're watching since the channels aren't selling advertising, so that crap has no business on the screen. I'm not happy about the ones on broadcast TV, but there's at least a flimsy excuse as to why they need to be there. I canceled Showtime last year when they started trashing credits to promote other stuff, and if they're now using bugs, that simply tells me I made the right call to put the $11/mo back in my pocket.

(Are those new eps of TAL?)Yes. This season started about a month ago.

The Tonight Show is bug free tonight.

Putting a bug on a premium channel is never acceptable.I'm with you, in principle. But sometimes you have no choice.

Of course the same notion applies to movie theaters... who already charge us much more for a ticket than they used to, and in addition throw pre-movie commercials at us, and then once the lights go down throw a few more commercials at us.

So do you also not/never go to those movie theaters which show commercials (e.g. ALL AMC THEATERS ARE GUILTY), or do you pay another $5/ticket to go to those select few high-end theaters which opt not to show commercials (e.g. The Bridge de Lux, Arclight and Landmark theaters in LA)?

Personally, I am on a near-100% boycott of all AMC theaters. I will NEVER go to them voluntarily... but sometimes I have to. But I WILL definitely pay the extra money for top-notch theater sight and sound, and no commercials. $14-$15 seems like an outrage, but so does regular gasoline at $4.09/gallon.

Yes. This season started about a month ago.

Crap, I'll have to hunt down some re-runs. Thanks.

The bug returned for Late Night with the guests legs again being spammed with a text ad for Nashville Star. Awful :P

I don't see how the encoders that affiliates have right now (other than maybe Fox affiliates) could pass this flag to their encoders. Once the network feed is decoded, all MPEG flags that came with it are lost.

The BBC manage to preserve AFDs via MPEG2 decode/recodes with no major issues. BBC One and Two SD feeds are distributed at 10Mbs MPEG2 to national and regional centres, with accompanying AFD info, and the AFDs survive a secondary master control area (a bit like a station affiliate), in this case I think they are accompanied by Metadata sourced from the master playout area in London.

Additionally the MPEG2 decoder at each centre that decodes the network feed can embed the AFD information into the VBI portion of the SDI signal.

In English regions there is a simpler decode/recode system - but the MPEG2 AFD embedded in the VBI information in the SDI video signal and this embedded information is used to derive the AFD info encoded by the downstream MPEG2 encoder. (English regions have a simple SDI/Audio switch that flips between the network decoded SDI and local SDI prior to the MPEG2 encoders for OTA and satellite. The satellite feed is backhauled to London for uplink, the OTA feed is dropped back into the CBR hole left by removing the London feed present in the mux 1 stream)

The same VBI information is used to drive a dynamic Aspect Ratio Converter in the feed that is encoded for UK digital satellite (the Sky platform doesn't support AFDs so an ARCed feed is required prior to encoding - so 4:3/16:9 MPEG2 headers are used instead of AFDs on these feeds)

I would be surprised if a similar "AFD in VBI" system couldn't be used in the HD-SDI domain to preserve the original source AFDs from network material... Local material AFD flagging would presumably be done by the local playout system.

Besides, how do you deal with two different sources with AFD.. and you do a dissolve through the production switcher..where does the format change occur in in this case? What about with double DVE squeezeback?

When a local switcher is in circuit then whoever is responsible for scheduling the local playout decides what the AFD is - it is just another field in the playout automation system (like Colossus, IBIS etc.). It will depend on the house style of effect I would imagine. In most cases the AFD of the source programme will be retained, so that receivers don't bounce to a new ratio just for the duration of the effect.

AFDs can't be treated entirely in isolation - they inform and are informed by - the presentation style a station has. Do you run a 16:9 station ident before a 4:3 show, do you go via a down-and-up or fade-and-take? When DVEing 4:3 content do you crop the pillarbox bars etc. Different transitions and effects will be required for different combinations of sources etc.

(In the UK most presentation - i.e. channel playout rather than programme production - push-backs, DVE zooms etc. are 75% pre-rendered with just the live video source being live DVEed - the other DVEed sources are usually pre-rendered, and in some cases framed specifically for the junction)

Time to send these two geniuses some more e-mail:

Michael Pilot
Michael.Pilot@nbcuni.com
President, NBCU Sales & Marketing
212.664.6795

Jim Hoffman
James.Hoffman@nbcuni.com
SVP, Network Entertainment Sales
212.664.7045

You would think they would realize from the ratings that the ad text is not working.
I for one will not watch any NBC programming till that spam text goes away.

I still think GE is positioning NBC to be put up on the block soon after the Olympics (and the influx of money that will come on the books). If that's the case, they will do anything they can that has even a remote chance of bringing in some short term revenue - regardless of the long term impact.

I still think GE is positioning NBC to be put up on the block soon after the Olympics (and the influx of money that will come on the books). If that's the case, they will do anything they can that has even a remote chance of bringing in some short term revenue - regardless of the long term impact.
And this is one of the ways they're doing it.

NBC Universal, DISH Offer Ad 'Triggers'
Agreement to enable ad-triggering capabilities for DISH's DVR customers is latest salvo in the battle to keep viewers engaged with commercial messages

http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=402800

NBC continues the stupidity tonight by advertising that Last Comic Standing is "ALL NEW", as opposed to only part of it being new and part of it being repeat ;) :rolleyes:

I cannot wait until the new horror movies start next week. Will the have the bright white "ALL NEW" bug on them as well?

The Tonight Show is bug free tonight.

but not wednesday.

it seemed to come back during or after the monologue.

I noticed that same spam text is used on USA. Is it used on UHD also?
I would not be surprised if it's used on SciFi also.

Putting a bug on a premium channel is never acceptable. Premium channels don't need to constantly remind stupid Nielsen viewers what channel they're watching since the channels aren't selling advertising, so that crap has no business on the screen. I'm not happy about the ones on broadcast TV, but there's at least a flimsy excuse as to why they need to be there. I canceled Showtime last year when they started trashing credits to promote other stuff, and if they're now using bugs, that simply tells me I made the right call to put the $11/mo back in my pocket.

Starz! has been doing this for years with their "You've just seen, see it again" graphics over the end credits, but now they do a full-blown 3/4 screen promo for their other channels.

It's gotten truly sad, and were it not for the fact that the SHO HD continues to show films that are unavailable on BD, I'd drop SHO and Starz! for this (of course HBO also forces studios to give them 16:9 HD crop s of everything, but that's another story.)

I had Showtime a year or so ago and HATED how they put their bug on periodically during movies as well as ads in the style of TBS or TNT. Plus, my biggest pet peeve of all is cutting credits short, especially to show ads. I'm really anal about that, the movie isn't over until the last of the credits has run, especially when they put in extra content with the credits.

I just started watching Dexter on CBS and am anticipating next season. But I cringe at having to pay for a channel that fills the screen with garbage. It's one thing when it's free TV or basic cable. But if I'm paying $12 a month for a channel, I want a clean screen.

Anyone else having the city's NBC's name labeled underneath the peacock logo now?

Anyone else having the city's NBC's name labeled underneath the peacock logo now?

No. Must be a local thing. Some annoying a**hole affiliates like to plaster the screen with local bugs. On mrvideo's NBC screenshots, there is actually a separate bug in another corner.

Luckily we don't have any of that crap here in Cleveland. The only one that does this is the CW, but those stations usually do it, especially in larger markets.

I notice today during Golf NBC is using a different bug than primetime programming. This bug doesn't have any ad text on it and it looks more transparent than the primeitme bug. It blends in with its surroundings better. Plus, the lack of ad text helps :D

I just happened to be surfing channels, and passed through the Stanley Cup Finals game on NBC right now.

Quite surprisingly, there is NO BUG AT ALL in the lower right or left portion of the screen! Instead, there is a "score bar" at the top of the screen, and a small NBC colored-peacock logo at the left side of that bar (where most stations put their logo on their own sports bars).

When a replay is shown, the score bar disappears and there's now just a small colored peacock bug in the lower-right of the 4:3 area during the replay. No text or ads. Just a peacock, which disappears as soon as they go back to live.

Furthermore, the score bar is a obviously 16:9 graphic, although the primary portion is 4:3 safe. Special-needs graphics also appear occasionally, and they too are obviously 16:9 in structure. The primary score bar even has a certain dynamic aspect to it, lowering a small "dropdown window" with additional info when appropriate, and then the appendage "rolls up" and disppears. So mostly the score bar is single-line thin and unobstructive... more unobstructive than larger score bars seen on most other sports coverage from other networks.

In addition, there is no bug or score bar during interviews or other non-action content. The score bar only reappears when the game is back on.

Finally, all of the graphics are very appealing and even cleverly animated... but not in an offensive way. Instead, I find it very very appealing and totally acceptable. Mostly, they are UNOBSTRUCTIVE and the score bar is single-line thin! AND NO BUG!

In other words, most of the screen is available to cover the action on the screen! I can actually watch the game and enjoy!!!

Might this be the new way NBC will actually manage the screen real estate during the Olympics and other high profile sporting events? I hope so.

Too bad they don't have the same genuine awareness of viewer desires (and excellent "branding/graphics" solution) for their non-sports programming.

THIS IS REALLY ENJOYABLE! The graphics are clear, legible, colorful in a non-offensive non-intrusive way, and only onscreen when they need to be. Mostly, they are SMALL! And no ads or promo text!!!

Way to go!

EDIT: just watched a faceoff, from the overhead camera (on a cable, I guess). NBC eliminated all graphics during that shot, making it a gorgeous straight-down shot of the white ice and painted-on markings, two players, ref dropping the puck, and NO GRAPHICS ANYWHERE! TERRIFIC shot!

The promo text has the night off.
I've not seen it since I checked NBC at 9pm

Now its back with with drop shadow under it :P

Might this be the new way NBC will actually manage the screen real estate during the Olympics and other high profile sporting events?
New? NBC has been using these same graphics for sports since they started doing Sunday Night Football in 2006.

New? NBC has been using these same graphics for sports since they started doing Sunday Night Football in 2006.Sorry... I don't watch sports on NBC other than the Olympics (last seen in 2006, long before the very recent bug-changing in anticipation of the 2009 changeover coupled with elimination of separate SD and HD broadcasts), so I didn't know that. I assumed that sports programming might be subject to the same changes we've noticed over the past few months on regular programming.

Note that back in 2006 the UHD broadcast of Olympics coverage was characterized by a HUGE logo/bug that seemed to take up 1/2 of the lower portion of the screen.

Anyway, the hockey game coverage I saw the other day was new to me, in that there was no lower-right/left NBC bug at all. And that's a good thing.

Anyway, the hockey game coverage I saw the other day was new to me, in that there was no lower-right/left NBC bug at all. And that's a good thing.
They never have a traditional bug when they do sports with this graphics package. I suspect that the Olympics will have a different graphics package, along with a constant bug.

I don't think we will see this kind of behaviorfrom NBC during the Olympics. I just don't see how it could happen. The Olympics are always a serious, classy event. The only thing NBC should be allowed to have is a SMALL, TRANSPARENT BUG WITHOUT TEXT IN THE BOTTOM, RIGHT CORNER. Nothing more.

If NBC chooses to spam and clutter our screens with advertising for their pathetic shows, I hope this is the LAST time we EVER see Olympics on NBC. Let CBS have it back. Or even ABC. ABC Sports/ESPN seem to know how to handle on screen graphics during sporting events.

^^^ The bug will more than likely be in the top right corner as I remember seeing it in the past.

^^^ The bug will more than likely be in the top right corner as I remember seeing it in the past.Well, that is what they did this morning on the French ladies' final. Upper right corner, 4:3 safe, mostly transparent but large and certainly not near-invisible.

However there also was a nearly-opaque colored score graphic in the upper left corner, 4:3 safe, also showing an NBC color peacock. So they had a double-bug onscreen at all times, in the two upper 4:3 corners, making them very very noticeable.

I guess this might be standard for them and maybe is what we'll see during the Olympics, but I still find it distracting and intrusive.

Oh well. If they're not ever going to again inject 16:9-specific graphics and/or bug, I guess this is just how it will be going forward from now on.

I don't think we will see this kind of behaviorfrom NBC during the Olympics. I just don't see how it could happen. The Olympics are always a serious, classy event. The only thing NBC should be allowed to have is a SMALL, TRANSPARENT BUG WITHOUT TEXT IN THE BOTTOM, RIGHT CORNER. Nothing more.

If NBC chooses to spam and clutter our screens with advertising for their pathetic shows, I hope this is the LAST time we EVER see Olympics on NBC. Let CBS have it back. Or even ABC. ABC Sports/ESPN seem to know how to handle on screen graphics during sporting events.

I don't know why you'd think that. Since at least 2002, NBC has run a full color opaque bug alternatively in the top right or bottom right corner at all times during the Olympics.

So, are we thinking that NBC shows will no longer be composed in 16x9, as many are today? They are the only network that actually takes advantage of the wider aspect ratio, I would hate to see them taking a step back and composing in 4x3 again. It is so annoying to watch shows that are being 4x3 safe.

So, are we thinking that NBC shows will no longer be composed in 16x9, as many are today? They are the only network that actually takes advantage of the wider aspect ratio, I would hate to see them taking a step back and composing in 4x3 again. It is so annoying to watch shows that are being 4x3 safe.

I suspect it depends what you mean by "compose".

Over here, where we do a lot of 16:9 production that is received by 4:3 viewers, there are two standards.

Graphics safe - which ensures that graphics remain in the 4:3 frame, so that all viewers, irrespective of receiver or display (within reason), can see text and other important graphics. Particularly important on 16:9 news shows, where cropping the word "not" in a graphic that says "not guilty" could be important, and similarly with commercials, where cropping the small print could be an issue.

Action safe - which is what camera operators and picture editors consider when composing shots and deciding when to cut etc. This is more varied, and includes 4:3 safe for sports, 14:9 safe for most entertainment, news, drama etc. and 16:9 for movies and some arts programming.

14:9 has been a very useful compromise, as a show shot 14:9 action safe doesn't look terribly compromised on an overscanned 16:9 display, and it just looks a bit "snug" on a 4:3 centre cut.

I don't think we will see this kind of behaviorfrom NBC during the Olympics. I just don't see how it could happen. The Olympics are always a serious, classy event. The only thing NBC should be allowed to have is a SMALL, TRANSPARENT BUG WITHOUT TEXT IN THE BOTTOM, RIGHT CORNER. Nothing more.

If NBC chooses to spam and clutter our screens with advertising for their pathetic shows, I hope this is the LAST time we EVER see Olympics on NBC. Let CBS have it back. Or even ABC. ABC Sports/ESPN seem to know how to handle on screen graphics during sporting events.

I'm fuzzy on the details, but I believe there was a report that NBC petitioned for, and received, permission to use up to 20% of the screen during the Olympics for advertising.

I guess I'm talking about action. When you watch shows like The Office, you can definitely tell that they are using the entire frame, which is why most of their shows are letterboxed.
When I watch shows on CBS, I can tell the action is being framed 4x3 safe. It is so annoying, for example, to see someone walking, and they stop in the 4x3 zone, when they could keep going to the edge of the screen.
It would be bad news if NBC went back to filiming their shows this way.
I was looking forward to ALL networks begin composing in 16x9, but I'm starting to think that they may not be the case.

I suspect it depends what you mean by "compose".

Over here, where we do a lot of 16:9 production that is received by 4:3 viewers, there are two standards.

Graphics safe - which ensures that graphics remain in the 4:3 frame, so that all viewers, irrespective of receiver or display (within reason), can see text and other important graphics. Particularly important on 16:9 news shows, where cropping the word "not" in a graphic that says "not guilty" could be important, and similarly with commercials, where cropping the small print could be an issue.

Action safe - which is what camera operators and picture editors consider when composing shots and deciding when to cut etc. This is more varied, and includes 4:3 safe for sports, 14:9 safe for most entertainment, news, drama etc. and 16:9 for movies and some arts programming.

14:9 has been a very useful compromise, as a show shot 14:9 action safe doesn't look terribly compromised on an overscanned 16:9 display, and it just looks a bit "snug" on a 4:3 centre cut.

So, are we thinking that NBC shows will no longer be composed in 16x9, as many are today?
Since they are expecting the 4:3 feed to be center-cut, I don't see how they could continue with 16:9 composition. Although there's not much they can do with re-runs, the 4:3 viewers will just have to miss out on some stuff.

Since they are expecting the 4:3 feed to be center-cut, I don't see how they could continue with 16:9 composition. Although there's not much they can do with re-runs, the 4:3 viewers will just have to miss out on some stuff.



This is truly awful.
What a step backwards for the tv industry.

What is wrong with something being 4:3 safe? At least for us who watch it in 16:9 we are getting everything the director intended, and MORE!

I wouldn't want something to be too tightly shot in 16:9 and then unwatchable in 4:3.

What is wrong with something being 4:3 safe? At least for us who watch it in 16:9 we are getting everything the director intended, and MORE!

I wouldn't want something to be too tightly shot in 16:9 and then unwatchable in 4:3.

Well, I'm sure the director didn't intend to have a bold-permanent channel logo or graphics right in your face when viewing his work.

What is wrong with something being 4:3 safe? At least for us who watch it in 16:9 we are getting everything the director intended, and MORE!
The problem is that the MORE is just extraneous background crap, that is meaningless to the shot. All of the action is confined to the center of the screen, which just doesn't look right.
I wouldn't want something to be too tightly shot in 16:9 and then unwatchable in 4:3.
That's why letterboxing was invented.

What is wrong with something being 4:3 safe? At least for us who watch it in 16:9 we are getting everything the director intended, and MORE!

I wouldn't want something to be too tightly shot in 16:9 and then unwatchable in 4:3.

Its annoying to watch a scene, where two people are talking, say on opposite sides of a room. It is totally obvious that they actors are staying in the 4x3 frame, when the natural look would be for them to walk towards the edge of the screen.
I was so happy when NBC finally started letterboxing shows like L&O. It was so much more pleasing to the eye to watch. I'm not exactly sure why, but I do notice these things, and I will be very upset if NBC frames everything in 4x3 safe mode, especially shows that have always been 16x9, like the Office.

The full color NBC logo with Olympic Rings is back for the U.S. Gymnastics Championship on NBC now.

I'm fuzzy on the details, but I believe there was a report that NBC petitioned for, and received, permission to use up to 20% of the screen during the Olympics for advertising.

20% of the screen??:eek::eek: That almost sounds like enough room for snipes and popup ads(center of screen, i.e. Celebrity Circus). I can't wait to see the Olympics even more b/c of this bug/ad thing. If the screen is filled with crap and the Olympics let it happen, then they are true sellouts.

What is wrong with something being 4:3 safe? At least for us who watch it in 16:9 we are getting everything the director intended, and MORE!

"MORE!" than what the director intended is an oxymoron since it wouldn't be "what the director intended".

Although even if the director is framing for 4:3 safe (and we get the director's intent), it means that the "MORE!" that we are getting is not relevent to the program. That almost completely nullifies the primary advantage of moving to widescreen.

I guess I'll kinda play Devils Advocate here and take the side of 4:3 composition. I actually like the wider shots. A shot with the people and action towards the center with more surrounding beign shown makes it more natural looking. If you are looking at a person across a room you'll see the person as well as some of the surroundings. I'm really not a fan of these "full screen, tight shots". Back to the two people example; I think it would be strange to have the actors in the left and right corners of the screen if they are having a conversation. Especially if it is a show like "The Office", two characters would normally be closer together if they are talking.

It's not that you'd force the action to the sides of the screen, it's giving the directors the option of doing so when it can enhance the program material.

The full color NBC logo with Olympic Rings is back for the U.S. Gymnastics Championship on NBC now.Boy, how distracting is this?

Looks like a "planet" or a "light bulb", hanging there in fully opaque multi-color in the upper-right of the 4:3 zone, seemingly floating in the middle of the visual screen!

I know, you can see it vividly and clearly from across the room (which is obviously their intention)... but when there's a dark background behind it I'm afraid it looks like a "lapel pin". My eye keeps being drawn to it rather than being able to watch the gymnasts jumping around in the darkened-background arena.

The real problem is that because it's sort of "centered" (i.e. floating in the 4:3 zone against a dark background, and well down from the top of the screen) it's really totally isolated much too close to the main subject action (e.g. a gymnast on the rings, spinning all around), which is REALLY DISTRACTING! It should really be far away from the main action, not right on top of it!

I suppose I can adjust to it (since I obviously have no choice), but I don't have to like it.

Better solution: letterbox the presentation for 4:3 viewers (so that they seem the whole glorious 16:9 "modern" image showing much more information, even if it's on a 4:3 set) and move the full-color logo deep into a 16:9 corner.

Of course a non-color fairly transparent bug is preferable, but I guess this is "elite sports coverage" and multi-colored is corporate policy.

"MORE!" than what the director intended is an oxymoron since it wouldn't be "what the director intended".

Although even if the director is framing for 4:3 safe (and we get the director's intent), it means that the "MORE!" that we are getting is not relevent to the program. That almost completely nullifies the primary advantage of moving to widescreen.

I agree, and this development just makes me even more disgusted with the whole direction this digital transition and HDTV has been taking. It's a symptom of years of mishandling, misinformation, and lack of decisive decision making by our government and marketing groups. In other words, business as usual...

The idea that NBC will likely be crapping up the screen with all sorts garbage during the Olympic telecasts just disappoints me even more.

I'm afraid that the fact that NBC did so well in the upfronts means that this fall we are going to see an unparalleled level of in-program marketing.

This bug also looks strange during Track and Field. They were showing eight runners crossing the line and in a few shots the bug happened to be in between the runners' "lanes" and there was that big peacock between heads.

I'm afraid that the fact that NBC did so well in the upfronts means that this fall we are going to see an unparalleled level of in-program marketing.I know. Amazing. Their anti-DVR strategy.

I am obviously atypical, but there is not one show on NBC that I watch now. "Las Vegas" was the last one, and it's gone now. I personally find none of their programming appealing, at least to my personal tastes as a TV viewer.

What with their (1) lowest-of-all-networks digital audio levels, (2) new screen-spamming practice, and (3) "planetary bug" placement, this might as well be UPN for all I care.

But they do still hold the Olympics monopoly, so I'm locked in for another four years I guess.

Better solution: letterbox the presentation for 4:3 viewers (so that they seem the whole glorious 16:9 "modern" image showing much more information, even if it's on a 4:3 set) and move the full-color logo deep into a 16:9 corner.
The problem with the digital transition is that NBC no longer has any control over the 4:3 presentation. They're sending out 16:9 HD, and that's it. 4:3 SD is handled by the cable/satellite provider in most cases, unless the affiliate provides an SD subchannel.

Better solution: letterbox the presentation for 4:3 viewers (so that they seem the whole glorious 16:9 "modern" image showing much more information, even if it's on a 4:3 set) and move the full-color logo deep into a 16:9 corner.

The reason they've pulled it into the 4:3 frame is because of the switch to digital. Satellite providers in particular (but some cable providers) will be offering their non-HD feed as merely a downconverted centercut of the HD picture.

Why they're centercutting rather than letterboxing is beyond me though. None of the market decisions that might drive ABC to present Lost in 4:3 centercut rather than letterbox apply to a television service provider. If anything, to the extent that viewers dislike letterbox and seek an alternative, they're either going off the TV to the Internet (an advanced service), to a different channel on the digital tier (an advanced service), or to buy an HDTV to get rid of the black lines (and will need an HD capable STB, an advanced service).

As we get ever closer to the analog cutoff, we will probably see large ad bugs and snipes about the end of analog. This would be ok if they would only put it on the analog signals and leave it off the digital signals. Unfortunately they will probably show them on the digital signals also.

The reason they've pulled it into the 4:3 frame is because of the switch to digital. Satellite providers in particular (but some cable providers) will be offering their non-HD feed as merely a downconverted centercut of the HD picture.

Why they're centercutting rather than letterboxing is beyond me though. None of the market decisions that might drive ABC to present Lost in 4:3 centercut rather than letterbox apply to a television service provider. If anything, to the extent that viewers dislike letterbox and seek an alternative, they're either going off the TV to the Internet (an advanced service), to a different channel on the digital tier (an advanced service), or to buy an HDTV to get rid of the black lines (and will need an HD capable STB, an advanced service).The providers would probably get complaints from their subscribers. At some point SD feeds on cable and sat should disappear and any downconversion will be performed by the STBs. 4:3 sets may be in the minority by then. At some point the bug should move back and shows could be framed for 16:9. The one I wonder about is Conan Obrien. Will it change to 4:3 framing?

The one I wonder about is Conan Obrien. Will it change to 4:3 framing?

All new shows will. Networks will be sending out a digital-only feed with 4:3 safe graphics. Affiliates will send out the digital feed OTA as well as on HD cable and satellite. The widescreen feed will be center cut for SD digital cable and satellite.

Looks like NBC is taking steps to deal with this problem according to this article (broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6551790.html):

"NBC Universal is making moves now to ensure that its television programming continues to reach standard-definition cable and satellite viewers in the proper format after high-powered analog broadcasts cease in 2009 and cable and satellite operators will start carrying a downconverted version of the network’s HDTV signal to support viewers with analog sets.

NBCU teamed up with stations groups Hearst-Argyle Television and Tribune to promote the use of Active Format Descriptor technology, which will ensure that cable-headend equipment and set-top boxes display the downconverted signal in the aspect ratio that producers originally intended."

What's the "proper format"?

Haven't they already told us that they've instructed their content providers/production companies to shoot for a 4x3 safe zone anyway? In fact, I'm sure it was NBC that made the statement. In essence, nothing outside the 4x3 area of a 16x9 image would have any bearing plot-wise or character-wise on the finished product. The "pillarbar" area becomes basically window dressing on 16x9 displays and the image can be center-cut for 4x3 delivery/end use.

If they're going to do that, what's the purpose of an "Active Format Descriptor technology"?

I don't understand why some people are so against letterboxing. Hasn't it been that way with movies shown on TV for years (even decades) now?

The problem is that 4:3 material will be windowboxed and there is no guarantee that downstream downconverters will be set for letterbox. If AFD had widespread support then networks could feel comfortable with 16:9 framing and bugs, but this should have happened years ago instead of months before the shutoff. At least NBC is making an effort while some others have no clue at all. It is a temporary problem as 4:3 sets will fade away, but the transition to 16:9 framing has been delayed for years due to the industry's lack of foresight.

What's the "proper format"?"Proper" is based on the format of the source material. 16:9 originals would be letterboxed and 4:3 content would be full screen. That would allow full use of the 16:9 space and get rid of windowboxing of 4:3 content.

Haven't they already told us that they've instructed their content providers/production companies to shoot for a 4x3 safe zone anyway? In fact, I'm sure it was NBC that made the statement.Yes, they have, because AFD will not be used any time soon, if ever. AFD does not have broad support among content providers or distributors. I suspect we'll reach the tipping point where 16:9 becomes the dominant format and content is letterboxed instead of centercut before AFD can be implemented.

"Proper" is based on the format of the source material. 16:9 originals would be letterboxed and 4:3 content would be full screen. That would allow full use of the 16:9 space and get rid of windowboxing of 4:3 content.

Yes, they have, because AFD will not be used any time soon, if ever. AFD does not have broad support among content providers or distributors. I suspect we'll reach the tipping point where 16:9 becomes the dominant format and content is letterboxed instead of centercut before AFD can be implemented.

Okay, I just read the whole article TVOD linked to, was too tired last night after watching 3 hrs of TV for the first time in months. :p

His quoted section of the article implies that something is already happening regarding AFD, but upon reading the whole thing it appears just to be a rah-rah initiative that, as you note, will probably never happen. Basically, industry convention hot air blowing.

What's the "proper format"?

Haven't they already told us that they've instructed their content providers/production companies to shoot for a 4x3 safe zone anyway? In fact, I'm sure it was NBC that made the statement. In essence, nothing outside the 4x3 area of a 16x9 image would have any bearing plot-wise or character-wise on the finished product. The "pillarbar" area becomes basically window dressing on 16x9 displays and the image can be center-cut for 4x3 delivery/end use.

If they're going to do that, what's the purpose of an "Active Format Descriptor technology"?


I sure hope they haven't told their content providers this. If they have, it is a huge step backwards for the industry.

I sure hope they haven't told their content providers this. If they have, it is a huge step backwards for the industry.In NBC's case, they have. All NBC shows will be 4:3 safe on the HD side this fall, although it is unclear whether NBC will also stop the 14:9 letterboxing of some prime time shows such as Heroes. I suspect they will.

Given the movement of bugs and other graphics into the 4:3 centercut area on other networks, it seems likely they are also planning to produce 4:3 safe programs as well.

Okay, I just read the whole article TVOD linked to, was too tired last night after watching 3 hrs of TV for the first time in months. :p

His quoted section of the article implies that something is already happening regarding AFD, but upon reading the whole thing it appears just to be a rah-rah initiative that, as you note, will probably never happen. Basically, industry convention hot air blowing.Sorry if it implied more than what is the unfortunate reality. AFD is part of the ATSC standard, albeit an addition, but no one was interested. NBC is making some noise which is better than the complete silence up until now. Yes probably too little too late. It's just another reason on top of the clutter and declining broadcast quality that consumers will seek real HD elsewhere. Maybe the NAB should have paid more attention to this than obsessing on the merger of two failing satellite companies.

Maybe NBC will start promoting AFD with a message above their bug.:D

Don't give them any ideas, if anyone were to do it, it would be NBC. :D

it is unclear whether NBC will also stop the 14:9 letterboxing of some prime time shows such as Heroes.
They can't do letterboxing. They'll only be sending out a single feed, and it'll be 16:9.

They can't do letterboxing. They'll only be sending out a single feed, and it'll be 16:9.That doesn't happen until February 2009. Until then, NBC will continue to provide both HD and SD feeds to its affiliates. The HD feed is being made 4:3 centercut safe so that cable companies can begin downconverting the 16:9 HD feed. But, again, NBC will continue to provide a separate SD feed to the affiliates until the analog shutoff. The network has not decided whether to end the 14:9 letterbox approach for all primetime shows on the SD feed this fall.

They can't do letterboxing. They'll only be sending out a single feed, and it'll be 16:9.

Isn't the point of NBC using AFDs that they CAN use AFD driven dynamic letterboxing to derive their SD feeds (as we do in the UK)? It would require cable and satellite companies who are generating a 4:3 SD feed from the NBC 16:9 HD feed to use an AFD-compatible receiver (and/or downconverter)

The AFDs allow NBC to specify how to convert a 16:9 HD source to 4:3, on a dynamic basis. Thus HD Sport can be 4:3 centre-cut as can 4:3 SD content that has been upconverted, however drama and entertainment can be 14:9 letterboxed, and feature films 16:9 letterboxed.

It works really quite well over here - in fact it is how the BBC derive their current 4:3 SD analogue network feeds, as well as how digital set top boxes used for OTA work with 4:3 TVs. (4:3 centre cut and 16:9 letterbox are standard - 14:9 support is optional)

Isn't the point of NBC using AFDs that they CAN use AFD driven dynamic letterboxing to derive their SD feeds (as we do in the UK)? It would require cable and satellite companies who are generating a 4:3 SD feed from the NBC 16:9 HD feed to use an AFD-compatible receiver (and/or downconverter)
First of all, the AFD data (IIRC) isn't passed on outside of NBC's internal video chain. The affiliates don't even see it. Even if they fixed that though, most of the receivers at the cable and satellite companies probably don't support AFD in the first place. So the data would just get ignored.

First of all, the AFD data (IIRC) isn't passed on outside of NBC's internal video chain. The affiliates don't even see it. Even if they fixed that though, most of the receivers at the cable and satellite companies probably don't support AFD in the first place. So the data would just get ignored.

You are right that currently AFD is limited to inside the plant at 30 Rock. After the Olympics are over NBC is going to start converting all of the affiliates over to a new distribution system and all stations should be on the new system before the cutover in Feb 09. When each station is converted that station will then be receiving an HD signal and the SD will be generated at the station via an AFD capable downconverter. The stations do need to make sure that their HD encoders can pass the AFD on from there. Some encoders are already capable of that and others might need an upgrade.

As for the satellite and cable companies, the "AFD Ready" campaign has already received support from quite a few manufacturers of professional decoders. NBC sent out a list of "AFD Ready" professional decoders and there are models from manufacturers such as Blonder Tongue, DTV Exchange, Harris, Ktech, Miranda, Motorola, RL Drake, Scientific Atlanta, Scopus, Sencore, Tandberg and Wegener. NBC is also encouraging stations to use direct fiber connections where possible to feed cable companies so the stations can control what the SD signal format is (which would be AFD Controlled at least for NBC programming by the NBC-installed equipment) instead of having the cable companies just lock it down on a center cut of the digital channel.

First of all, the AFD data (IIRC) isn't passed on outside of NBC's internal video chain. The affiliates don't even see it. Even if they fixed that though, most of the receivers at the cable and satellite companies probably don't support AFD in the first place. So the data would just get ignored.

That's the problem, nice idea, but in practical terms it's basically just another "whoops, we forgot about that" moment in this digital transition.

It's these times where I can't help but think of the city of Berlin, yes it's just a city and not a whole country, etc...but their digital transition seemed to go okay, they just pulled the plug. Can't see any TV, too bad, here's what you do to get it back. Here in the US, it will have become a generation's length of time before it's all said and done.

You are right that currently AFD is limited to inside the plant at 30 Rock. After the Olympics are over NBC is going to start converting all of the affiliates over to a new distribution system and all stations should be on the new system before the cutover in Feb 09. When each station is converted that station will then be receiving an HD signal and the SD will be generated at the station via an AFD capable downconverter. The stations do need to make sure that their HD encoders can pass the AFD on from there. Some encoders are already capable of that and others might need an upgrade.

As for the satellite and cable companies, the "AFD Ready" campaign has already received support from quite a few manufacturers of professional decoders. NBC sent out a list of "AFD Ready" professional decoders and there are models from manufacturers such as Blonder Tongue, DTV Exchange, Harris, Ktech, Miranda, Motorola, RL Drake, Scientific Atlanta, Scopus, Sencore, Tandberg and Wegener. NBC is also encouraging stations to use direct fiber connections where possible to feed cable companies so the stations can control what the SD signal format is (which would be AFD Controlled at least for NBC programming by the NBC-installed equipment) instead of having the cable companies just lock it down on a center cut of the digital channel.

That sounds all well and good, but I have a hard time believing all that will get done in the 6 mos between the time the Olympic games end in late Aug '08 and the transition happens in mid Feb '09.

Is NBC going to pay for all this?

First of all, the AFD data (IIRC) isn't passed on outside of NBC's internal video chain. The affiliates don't even see it. Even if they fixed that though, most of the receivers at the cable and satellite companies probably don't support AFD in the first place. So the data would just get ignored.

Tandberg is a provider of receivers to cable companies and broadcast entities. They are a UK based company. AFD capability is already sitting in racks at quite a few US uplink trucks, networks, and cable headends.

That sounds all well and good, but I have a hard time believing all that will get done in the 6 mos between the time the Olympic games end in late Aug '08 and the transition happens in mid Feb '09.

Is NBC going to pay for all this?

That's the timeline. NBC has done equipment replacements like this before, like years ago when they converted from the old analog Skypath to the current SD digital Skypath system. The contractor that NBC uses had multiple crews all around the country going from station to station pulling out the old racks and installing the new ones. When that conversion took place the racks were delivered prewired so the conversion at each station didn't take very long (a day or two). NBC let each of the stations know what pre-wiring would be needed (like what outputs were available) to connect the new racks to the station's gear so the each station could get that wiring in place to be connected on the day of the equipment swapout.

All of the equipment being replaced is part of the NBC distribution system. NBC owns it all and NBC is replacing it all at their own cost. No cost to the stations for the distribution gear. If a station does not have an AFD capable encoder to pass AFD along on the DTV signal then the station is responsible for that but the receive equipment and handing an HD and SD copy of the network signal to the stations is all done with NBC owned equipment. Even if a station does not have an AFD capable encoder right now, the AFD can still work internally to generate the downconverted SD copy. If a station has a fiber link to the local cable company, or any other MSO, that can still benefit some viewers.

The part about cable companies and DBS companies getting AFD capable equipment installed is a different story. If those MSOs are not using AFD equipment and it is already being installed, there may be some locations that won't see AFD use for a long time to come, even if NBC and affiliates are passing it along.

It would be interesting to see how many affiliates will go to the trouble of getting new encoders when many have already stated that the move to digital is costing them big money that they don't have.

The real fly in the ointment though is the consumer end of the chain, especially with the large numbers(some 80% of the TV audience?) of sat and cable with equipment in use that's not compatible. It will take years to swap all that out and that doesn't factor in the cost either.

Another thing is, unless the overall majority of the majors in a market, say 3 of the 4, do as NBC is doing, I can't see, cable especially, even bothering with it. Satellite is even worse considering there's still huge numbers of legacy MPEG2 STB's in service even though they've been pushing MPEG4 equipment for 3 years now.

Sounds like a great idea, but it really seems like too little too late. Unless, as seems to be the case more and more, NBC realizes that this digital transition is going to drag on for another 10 years, and by that I mean the complete elimination of 4x3 formatting.

The real fly in the ointment though is the consumer end of the chain, especially with the large numbers(some 80% of the TV audience?) of sat and cable with equipment in use that's not compatible. It will take years to swap all that out and that doesn't factor in the cost either.
SD consumer equipment doesn't enter the equation for cable or satellite subscribers. They are getting their SD from the provider, who takes care of the downconversion. Their box isn't seeing the HD signal.

I really do not care about the 4:3 framing. Watching SVU tonight I am visualizing where the "safe zone" is and the show appears to be 4:3 safe. I've only seen one or two scenes where an actor briefly steps out of the area, but it looked like it didn't matter. Graphics and titles are 4:3 safe as most of the shows are.

My guess is the future of TV is what we are seeing now. Logos/bugs will stay where they are until widescreen TVs out number older TVs. At that time, more cable/satellite boxes will be capable of getting HD signals and downconverting them to letterbox. Maybe 5 to 10 years.

Why they're centercutting rather than letterboxing is beyond me though.

I don't get this either. I am still in 4:3 analog cable land, but the newish NBC bug that is in the middle of the screen during 16:9 shows is ridiculous. I wish ABC and Fox would show us old analog viewers letterboxed stuff already. These shows that try to shoot for both 4:3 and 16:9 end up failing in both ratios in my opinion. (I guess this is the "14:9" process explained earlier in the thread. "House" and "Lost" appear to be shot like this and it drives me crazy.)

NBC seems to be going through a lot of (bad) gyrations to make 4:3 content work in an increasingly 16:9 world.

That's the problem, nice idea, but in practical terms it's basically just another "whoops, we forgot about that" moment in this digital transition.


Broadcasting AFDs OTA (as we do in the UK, and have done for 8+ years) is not exactly difficult though - and neither is passing them between bits of kit.

Given that the main thrust of this is how 4:3 SD feeds for cable and satellite SD broadcasts are derived BY the cable and satellite suppleir, the consumer angle isn't that important either (though it would be good if consumer gear coped with AFDs and stations used them - they are a real boon for both the networks and consumers with 4:3 sets).

It is a case of just a single receiver/downconverter at each supplier having AFD compatibility AND the source delivering a 16:9 HD feed containing a valid AFD signal.


It's these times where I can't help but think of the city of Berlin, yes it's just a city and not a whole country, etc...but their digital transition seemed to go okay, they just pulled the plug. Can't see any TV, too bad, here's what you do to get it back. Here in the US, it will have become a generation's length of time before it's all said and done.

Yeah - though Germany is an interesting case - as the penetration of ANALOGUE satellite is very high in Germany, a result of re-unification co-inciding with the launch of the analogue Astra 1 satellites at 19.2 - which remain probably the most widespread analogue satellite TV in Europe.

(And Germany may also be using AFDs... Not sure...)

NBC seems to be going through a lot of (bad) gyrations to make 4:3 content work in an increasingly 16:9 world.How is enabling a system that would allow letterbox as an option a bad thing? I hope the other networks follow NBC's support for AFD. Hopefully NBC's new distribution system deals with the compression artifacts. Maybe now that they are buying The Weather Channel they can get out of the Weather Plus business, but that's just my wishful thinking.

When each station is converted that station will then be receiving an HD signal and the SD will be generated at the station via an AFD capable downconverter.


Yep - that is when AFDs became really important in the UK - when the separate analogue network playout areas were phased out (around 2000ish) - and the SD analogue transmitter feeds were derived from the digital network feed, with AFD driven aspect ratio conversion deriving the various letterbox ratios or centre cut option.

That said, AFDs are also used extensively for OTA digital broadcasting, as some networks (the four OTA BBC networks that broadcast a mix of 4:3 and 16:9 content) broadcast a permanent 16:9 feed with either 16:9 full-width or 4:3/12:9 pillar box content, with the AFD signalling the latter and triggering a centre cut. Additionally 16:9 full-width content is accompanied by an AFD signalling whether to 16:9 letterbox, 14:9 letterbox or 4:3 centre cut.


The stations do need to make sure that their HD encoders can pass the AFD on from there. Some encoders are already capable of that and others might need an upgrade.


The requirement for ENCODERS at the local stations to pass the AFD feed on is presumably so that OTA (if any exist in the US) receivers and cable/satellite head-end receivers and downconverters can use this to derive a decent 4:3 SD feed with the right aspect ration conversion done for each show (as NBC decide on a show by show basis)


As for the satellite and cable companies, the "AFD Ready" campaign has already received support from quite a few manufacturers of professional decoders. NBC sent out a list of "AFD Ready" professional decoders and there are models from manufacturers such as Blonder Tongue, DTV Exchange, Harris, Ktech, Miranda, Motorola, RL Drake, Scientific Atlanta, Scopus, Sencore, Tandberg and Wegener. NBC is also encouraging stations to use direct fiber connections where possible to feed cable companies so the stations can control what the SD signal format is (which would be AFD Controlled at least for NBC programming by the NBC-installed equipment) instead of having the cable companies just lock it down on a center cut of the digital channel.

Yep - and AFD support is relatively straightforward to implement AIUI. You look for ancillary data in VBI, which is standardised, in the HD-SDI domain, and use this to encode the correct AFD in the MPEG2 domain. The AFD can then be either re-inserted in VBI on decoding to drive a downstream aspect ratio converter/down converter, or this functionality may be already incorporated in the receiver. (Depends on the application)

NBC seems to be going through a lot of (bad) gyrations to make 4:3 content work in an increasingly 16:9 world.

It is more complicated than that. They need to make 16:9 content work for 4:3 receivers, make 4:3 content work for 16:9 viewers, as well as make 4:3 content broadcast as a 16:9 signal (pillarboxed) work for 4:3 viewers without delivering a postage stamp, and similarly in the rare (hopefully) cases that they have to broadcast a 4:3 SD source that contains a letterbox image...

Broadcasting AFDs OTA (as we do in the UK, and have done for 8+ years) is not exactly difficult though - and neither is passing them between bits of kit.

Given that the main thrust of this is how 4:3 SD feeds for cable and satellite SD broadcasts are derived BY the cable and satellite suppleir, the consumer angle isn't that important either (though it would be good if consumer gear coped with AFDs and stations used them - they are a real boon for both the networks and consumers with 4:3 sets).

It is a case of just a single receiver/downconverter at each supplier having AFD compatibility AND the source delivering a 16:9 HD feed containing a valid AFD signal.While not a huge technical challenge, the greater obstacle is station and cable/sat company compliance especially in smaller markets. US networks have no corporate ties to most of their affiliates. The only network that will have control is Fox due to their splicer system, and that is only through the station transmitter. At least NBC is a cheerleader. Some other networks have stated that they have no interest and will just assume any SD will be center cut.

While not a huge technical challenge, the greater obstacle is station and cable/sat company compliance especially in smaller markets.


Yep - I absolutely don't underestimate that.

We are in a very different situation here in the UK - as analogue cable is effectively dead - with digital cable being 16:9/4:3 SD compatible. The cable cos just pass on the aspect ratio signalling that the broadcaster provides - and the cable receivers cope.

In satellite terms the main networks (4 out of 5 at least) uplink their own satellite feeds directly, with the broadcasters directly leasing transponders capacity. The satellite platform provider only provides access to the EPG.


US networks have no corporate ties to most of their affiliates. The only network that will have control is Fox due to their splicer system, and that is only through the station transmitter.


Yep - very different - and much more complex to ensure a consistent service to the viewer nationwide I guess.


At least NBC is a cheerleader. Some other networks have stated that they have no interest and will just assume any SD will be center cut.

That is sad - using AFDs means that producers and directors have more flexibility to frame sympathetically for ALL viewers (SD and HD) knowing that the right aspect ratio will be used to display content consistently, irrespective of the delivery method or resolution of the display. For such a simple and effective idea (4 bits of data flagging the active area of a picture and the format it was protected for) - the benefits are huge.

Happened to pass briefly through SNL special tonight, "Tribute to Mike Myers" as I was changing channels. I was watching on an SD set in my kitchen. Content was a mix of recent SNL-HD-16:9 and much older SNL-SD-4:3.

Couldn't believe that NBC had letterboxed the HD content and placed a large promo-laden bug in what would have been the lower-left corner of what would have been the 4:3-safe area... if it had not been letterboxed, but it was!!!

In other words, the large promo-laden bug was almost in the bottom-center of the 4:3 SD screen, greatly interfering with and distracting from the actual onscreen content.

Even when they showed 4:3 content, the large promo-laden bug placement was the same... again appearing to the left of bottom-center, rather then 4:3 lower-left corner. Right in front of your field of view. Even though this was inappropriate for 4:3 content, they'd placed the large promo-laden bug in a constant position no matter that they were not showing letterboxed 16:9 content.

Just horrible.

Was the 4:3 material windowboxed (letterbox + pillars)?

Was the 4:3 material windowboxed (letterbox + pillars)?No. Standard fullscreen 4:3, with a strangely located bug.

No. Standard fullscreen 4:3, with a strangely located bug.

I saw that. Couldn't believe that the bug was so far from the bottom and side corners.

This really shows the stupidity of NBC. Why the hell did they show this letterbox? Why not just shoot the new material 4:3? I've always hated these clip shows b/c of the mix of old and new content. The HD feed used to be especially bad when the bug was outside the 4:3 area on old clips. :mad:

NBC took a smart pill!! Absolutely NO bug at all on tonight's Conan!!! Not even during the monologue!!!

Spoke with the guy at NBC-Burbank today who "executes" the bug for non-sports content. In other words, he doesn't decide what/where the bug is/goes, he only does what his superiors tell him to do. And he's not involved with French Open, US Open, Olympics Trials, or Olympics.

In other words, he is not a "mover and shaker", but more of a technician.

However he was young and alert and spoke English very well, and was very interested when I directed him to THIS thread in this forum on this web site... which he'd previously been completely unaware of. Perhaps he's now registered, or maybe he's just reading our comments.

I told him about the observations and comments members here had made over the past few months in particular, not only about NBC (since "Miss USA" in April) but also about ABC (jeez... Monday night's "Bachelorette" had a giant ABC logo and an even more giant onscreen text promo for some upcoming show, both of which together occupied half of the bottom of the screen... which was only 4:3!), regarding relocating obtrusive bugs into corners of the 4:3-safe area but well inside the side edges and well above/below the bottom/top of the screen, severely interfering with primary onscreen content.

He gave a little giggle, and said "I know". Obviously he's not entirely in agreement with what's been done, although he did confirm what we've already discussed here, namely the upcoming disappearance of the separate SD feed and the need to ensure that bug/graphics appear on 4:3 sets.

In other words, it was an interesting conversation with a "techie", but I didn't persuade him to mutiny and move it over into the 16:9 area. I honestly don't think my phone call was responsible for the Conan anomaly tonight.

However, we both did have a good laugh talking about what happened Monday afteroon on the 19th hole of the US Open playoff, when mysteriously a full-color NBC peacock bug appeared in the upper-left corner of the 4:3-safe area while simultaneously the transparent NBC Olympics-ring bug was still displayed in the lower-left corner! Two NBC bugs on the screen at the same time... one "full-color planetary-left bug" (as I like to call it, floating up there in free space at the top-left or top-right, like the sun or moon) with no Olympic rings or text, and a second transparent bug at the bottom-left.

He was aware of that occurrence, as people in his department had been talking about it. No explanation as to how it happened, though there were upcoming meetings planned to discuss it.

Ergo: no progress.

^^^He's a master control operator, right?

Again, this "second ad/promo/obstruction" crap seemed to really start in earnest back in early April, with the HD broadcast of "Miss USA".

From my post in that other thread on April 12, I comment:

"To make it even worse, there was a large "LIVE" on the top part of the screen above the NBC logo, also within 4:3-safe frame."


That's not quite accurate. For years, NBC has been handling live HD broadcasts this way. Because, for whatever reason, NBC lets the subcontrol center of the live telecast put the bug and all other graphics in, instead of NBC's own master control doing it like they do with all pre-taped programming, this has been the norm for things like sports, live events, and news, primarily shows that are produced in 16x9 HD but center cut for analog broadcoast. Only HD telecasts that were to be letterboxed for SD (like SNL) would the show's production department place the bug in the 16x9 area.

Haven't you noticed these things about NBC's HD broadcasts over the years? NBC master control doesn't touch the feed from where live content is originating, not even to put in commercials - that's always been handled by the show's production booth. SNL has been that since it began in the 70s. In repeats, like with all other pre-taped programming, NBC master control inserts bug and commercial breaks themselves, so they've been able to have separate graphics for the SD and HD streams. The Miss USA show wasn't the start of this, it was just the first time you noticed it, evidently.

Now, what I would like personally, is wherever NBC places the bug, that they ****ing wait a few seconds before jamming it in there on non-local brand shows like Conan and SNL. Just wait 5 seconds, not 1, it would just be all that much classier. But, hey, since the strike and the subsequent advent of the promo bug, NBC has proven how unclassy they consider themselves to be.

Spoke with the guy at NBC-Burbank today who "executes" the bug for non-sports content. In other words, he doesn't decide what/where the bug is/goes, he only does what his superiors tell him to do. And he's not involved with French Open, US Open, Olympics Trials, or Olympics.How does someone in Burbank do this? NBC Network originates from New York.

How does someone in Burbank do this? NBC Network originates from New York.

Most of NBC's content is output from New York, but the Tonight Show, I know, is fed out of Burbank. Every night control is switched from East to West, then back to East for Conan and the rest of the night. This was most evident back after 9/11, when the flag bug for Burbank/Leno broadcasts was markedly different from the flag bug NBC used the rest of the time.

edit: I'm not trying to be a know it all, but I have to explain why I know this: I used to work master control at an NBC affiliate, and so I'd see the feed from NBC on the monitors while local content was on the air. After the last prime-time program of the night, NBC East's output stays in black video for around ten minutes. Around 10 to 15 minutes after the 11/10 PM hour, the NBC Burbank Skypath colour bars switch on, indicating that Burbank master control now has control. Then the production slate for Leno's show comes up, then the first 90 seconds of that evening's episode is played over a few times as a test, then slate, then colour bars, then black video, then it's 11:34:30 and it's live. After Leno ends at 12:37, NBC New York Skypath cuts back in (this cut is seen live nowdays, though back in the old days when there was a terminal break between Tonight and Late Night, it wouldn't have been.)

I have a related question...

I am a Production Supervisor at an NBC station. I'm trying to get down to the bottom of this 4x3 vs. Letterbox mess. Our station currently does a center crop of the HD feed of NBC shows -- which as you might imagine doesn't work as things look odd and get cut off.

Would it be best to present all HD shows in a letterbox form? The only issue I can see would be that our newscasts (and other SD shows) would have to have a different setting to allow them to be in 4x3 yet.

What's the standard? What do the big markets do? I'm trying to set our engineering department straight...

Thanks!

WNBC must still be receiving an SD feed from NBC cause we get most of the prime time shows letterboxed when NBC sends them letterboxed.
I also notice during some NBC promos the feed will switch from 4:3 full screen to letterboxed.

If I'm not mistaken our local NBC (WNBC, flagship station in the NYC DMA) shows HD programming letter box and 4:3 material in 4:3...at least for primetime that's how it is.

News is HD but 4:3 safe, not sure what they do for the SD feed but it's not letterboxed. Probably a crop or something.

Go with 4:3 cut for SDTV programming. Since the networks are sending down a HD feed with a bug positioned for 4:3 cutting, it makes sense. Right now, the NBC network SD feed looks ridiculous because the network bug and the TV rating are in the "middle" of the letterbox frame(since it is an exact copy of the HDTV feed).

To answer your other questions, most markets currently send out the network SDTV feed on the analog channel, which is presented in whatever format the network chooses. The change to 4:3 will occur once cable and satellite systems begin using center cut downconverts of the HD channels to feed SD customers. Viewers with CECB boxes will also have control over the aspect ratio. Affiliates will not control the SD/analog feeds anymore, as analog broadcasting ends 2/17/09.

I have a related question...

I am a Production Supervisor at an NBC station. I'm trying to get down to the bottom of this 4x3 vs. Letterbox mess. Our station currently does a center crop of the HD feed of NBC shows -- which as you might imagine doesn't work as things look odd and get cut off.

Would it be best to present all HD shows in a letterbox form? The only issue I can see would be that our newscasts (and other SD shows) would have to have a different setting to allow them to be in 4x3 yet.

What's the standard? What do the big markets do? I'm trying to set our engineering department straight...

Thanks!
My vote is 16:9 letterbox for HD shows. Best to try and push your 4:3 audience to 16:9 as soon as possible. As long as you can differentiate between SD shows and HD shows (using NBC's new AFD?) to avoid windowboxing 4:3 content, that would be the best solution.

I have a related question...

I am a Production Supervisor at an NBC station. I'm trying to get down to the bottom of this 4x3 vs. Letterbox mess. Our station currently does a center crop of the HD feed of NBC shows -- which as you might imagine doesn't work as things look odd and get cut off.

Would it be best to present all HD shows in a letterbox form? The only issue I can see would be that our newscasts (and other SD shows) would have to have a different setting to allow them to be in 4x3 yet.

What's the standard? What do the big markets do? I'm trying to set our engineering department straight...

Thanks!A big issue is 4:3 material, especially commercials. Letterbox will cause pillarbox, aka the postage stamp effect, which is where the image is shrunk with black around it.

NBC is pushing for AFD support, which allows automatic selection of center cut and letterbox. This requires a downconverter that supports AFD. NBC uses alot of Miranda equipment and uses AFD internally. I'm not sure what the support is on the network feeds.

After the analog cutoff the SD network feeds will probably be discontinued within a short time. Most network affiliates will broadcast their primary feed in HD. Stations will want to discontinue dual support of HD and SD.

Because there is no guaranteed support by the stations, sat/satellite and converter boxes for AFD, the networks have moved their bugs to safe 4:3. This will likely continue for the foreseeable future. However there may be a move to frame for a wider aspect on some shows. FOX network is also supporting AFD and their network infrastructure assures AFD is broadcast by the affiliates.

As an NBC affiliate I would inquire into NBC's current support for network AFD.

I would agree with TVOD that AFD might be your best bet. As pointed out if you pick just one mode you will run into problems like you do now with either things being cut off or things always being letterboxed and then you risk having a floating window in the middle of the screen on 4:3 shows. AFD is already present on the HD MPEG-4 C-band backup signal and is being used with a Miranda downconverter to generate an SD version locally at each station. AFD will be present on the primary Ku band feeds when those switch to MPEG-4 as well. No current conversion date is set for Ku band but testing is in progress daily so hopefully the switch will happen fairly soon. If you are doing your downconvert in house (still in the HD-SDI world and prior to encoding) all you would likely need to use AFD is a downconverter that supports using the flag for switching modes once AFD is present on the primary Ku feeds you use for air. If your downconvert is happening after encoding you would have to make sure your encoder supports AFD in order for it to still be present in the transmitted signal.

Last night the Office aired a joke that would not work with a 4:3 center cut. The punchline to the joke was written on a white board on the left edge of the 16:9 frame.

Although I've noticed that the Office looks more 4:3 safe than before. The 'interview' shots look like the person is a bit more over from the left or right. And I noticed the opening credits are moved to the right so the NBC bug can be on during the entire intro. I'll have to remember to watch next week's episode "blown up" with the sides cut off to see how it works. Earl appeared to be 4:3(but it always has been) and the new Kath and Kim also(must have been ordered 4:3 safe).

If NBC is using AFD right now, then why is the bug 4:3 safe? Why didn't they discontinue letterbox when they moved the bug to the 4:3 safe location? The SDTV channel looks ridiculous with the "floating bug" in the letterbox frame.

I have a related question...

I am a Production Supervisor at an NBC station. I'm trying to get down to the bottom of this 4x3 vs. Letterbox mess. Our station currently does a center crop of the HD feed of NBC shows -- which as you might imagine doesn't work as things look odd and get cut off.

Would it be best to present all HD shows in a letterbox form? The only issue I can see would be that our newscasts (and other SD shows) would have to have a different setting to allow them to be in 4x3 yet.

What's the standard? What do the big markets do? I'm trying to set our engineering department straight...

Thanks!

In Atlanta, NBC shows the HD shows letterboxed on the SD channels.

The bug being in the 4:3 safe are on the letterboxed frame is likely because the bug has to be in that location on the HD feed in order to be center cut safe and since NBC generates the SD feed by downconverting the HD feed you get the bug in that same location on the SD feed. Not sure why they didn't just discontinue the letterbox since everything is being moved into the 4:3 safe area anyway. The AFD support is still pretty much only internal at this point. Once it is being passed to the affiliates on the primary HD feed and also when stations verify that they have AFD complaint encoders and other support equipment so that the AFD data continues on all the way to the end product (the over the air signal) then the AFD could be used at cable and satellite companies and the center cut safe graphics might be able to move back out to the 16:9 area on widescreen shows instead but who knows how long it will be until that point is reached.

Recently AFD was tested over the air in Albuquerque to translators and to cable and satellite. Here is a link to the article. (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6604469.html)

Although I've noticed that the Office looks more 4:3 safe than before. The 'interview' shots look like the person is a bit more over from the left or right. And I noticed the opening credits are moved to the right so the NBC bug can be on during the entire intro.

I've noticed that too. That's why I was shocked last night when they panned over to Jim's white board joke but left the punchline diagram at the edge of the 16:9 frame.

No no no, that's all wrong! We're not ready for 16:9! :)