Need to get thoughts on the format of the pictures that will be broadcast in digital after February 17, 2009.

Now, I'm not talking about the HDTV signal, but rather, the DTV signal that I will be able to get with either a digital transition converter or on my digital TV (non HDTV).

What specifically do you want thoughts on?

Basically - ALL tuners can receive it in any of the 18 formats that ATSC has defined (or they are supposed to be able to do this). The real issue is what the tuner does with it to convert it to a format your display device understands.

If that doesn't answer your question, what exactly do you have in mind ?

The format isn't changing after Feb 17, its the same format thats being broadcast now. So i'm not sure what your question is.

The converter boxes take a DTV or HDTV broadcast and downconvert it to low resolution that your old tv can handle.

If you are currently using an antenna to receive analog TV and you switch to a digital tuner all broadcasts SD(480i) and HD(720p or 1080I) will be recieved in digital format.
These broadcasts will then all be passed on or downscaled to 480i analog for use by your existing TV's analog tuner when using a transition converter.

Sorry, I'll try and clarify.

After the digital transition, and I am using by Digital TV (NOT HDTV), what format is the programming from the broadcaster on their digital broadcast?

4:3 or 16:9?

I know HDTV programming is 16:9.

It will be the same as it is now, some 16x9 and some 4x3. How it is displayed is a choice you make when you set up your converter box.

It will be a few more years before it will be all 16:9.

Like in the old days when color TV came out it took a while before all the shows were in color. I think they still had some new black and white shows in 1972, maybe even later.

I doubt *all* programming will ever be in 16:9 aspect; most subcarrier stations (like the Weather+/all-news/whatever channels often found on the secondary stream in larger markets) and some low-power, local, or other small channels which have or eventually will transition to ATSC transmission, may very will never move to 16:9 aspect, HD resolutions, etc., and that's just fine. There's plenty of room for that.

Mind you, I won't object to more HD... however, my local NBC affiliate hasn't even moved to ATSC yet (not until August, ugh), and my money is on SD digital broadcast instead of HD, which sucks. What can you do though...

Check titantv.com for the details on the digital channels at your location.
Almost all -1 subchannels are in 720p or 1080i resolution however that does not meant that all the programs on them are filmed with "HD resolution" cameras. Many programs are still "filmed: with 4:3 480i SD cameras and then side pillers are added before upscaling the video to 720p or 1080i for broadcasting.

After the transition, there is really no reason to remain 4:3 if the stations do not want to. As time moves on, their studio and field equipment will be 16:9 so a migration to 16:9 will take place. 480i 16:9 is a valid format.

After the transition, there is really no reason to remain 4:3 if the stations do not want to. As time moves on, their studio and field equipment will be 16:9 so a migration to 16:9 will take place. 480i 16:9 is a valid format.

I read somewhere that many TVs and STBs will not handle the 16:9 480i and 480p formats properly due to a lack of effort on the part of manufacturers to debug their products with these rarely implemented formats. No broadcaster will want to use those modes if they wind up crashing even a fraction of boxes in their viewing area.

Specifically, what will the major OTA networks main channels send to the cable cos. for customers with no Box or a Digital SD Box and an 4:3 Analog TV, 4:3 (center-cut) or 16:9 (letterboxed)?

Same Q for the various major Cable channels.

If it is letterboxed, like NBC does for primetime, then that would motivate many people to get an HDTV because it is WS, whereas, otherwise, they couldn't care less about HDTV.

Possibly, nothing will change with aspect ratios, at least not at first?

The networks are required to provide NTSC broadcasts to the cable companies until 2012 so if you are on cable you do not need to change anything for another 4 years.

The networks are required to provide NTSC broadcasts to the cable companies until 2012 so if you are on cable you do not need to change anything for another 4 years.
It is that the cable companies are required to provide their local, must-carry channels in analog until 2012. They will still receive the programming digitally, just have D/A converters in their headends.

I read somewhere that many TVs and STBs will not handle the 16:9 480i and 480p formats properly due to a lack of effort on the part of manufacturers to debug their products with these rarely implemented formats. No broadcaster will want to use those modes if they wind up crashing even a fraction of boxes in their viewing area.

If the number is small enough, yeah, they will. It will cost them more not to.

The networks are required to provide NTSC broadcasts to the cable companies until 2012 so if you are on cable you do not need to change anything for another 4 years.

Only CABLE is required to provide an analog compatible signal of local broadcast channels to cable subs until 2012. The "networks" are not required to do anything. Since 1998, stations have been and will continue to be only required to provide, AT A MINIMUM, 480i 4:3 or any other ATSC approved format.

I thought that the networks had to provide the NTSC broadcasts directly to the cable companies so that the cable companies would not have to convert the ATSC signals that they get from the networks. In any case the end result is the same.

It is that the cable companies are required to provide their local, must-carry channels in analog until 2012. They will still receive the programming digitally, just have D/A converters in their headends.
AFAIK, a given MSO's service area only has to provide Analog Locals until 2-12, if they don't go All-Digital by 2-09.

But, still nobody answered the specific question as to the aspect ratios.

Will OTA channels only have their HD channel available or will they send out a Digital SD 4:3 channel, as well?

I guess, for cable channels, they will still have both for a while, at least?

I thought that the networks had to provide the NTSC broadcasts directly to the cable companies so that the cable companies would not have to convert the ATSC signals that they get from the networks. In any case the end result is the same.

The networks provide their feed to the local affiliate and then the cable company gets if from the affiliate, not a direct feed unless there is some kind of special situation in the market (station is off the air because of a downed tower, etc) and then it is the same feed that is fed to stations. And if you are referring to the CW "network" feed, for those markets with no CW affiliate that goes to cable, that isn't the same feed that goes to stations. It is a completely different feed with different contract obligations.

I ment that the cable company got a direcct feed from the local network otherwise it could not be the local network broadcast. I never ment to imply got their feed directly from the national network feed.
Again the end reasult is the same the end user gets over cable the local network station programs in NTSC format.

I ment that the cable company got a direcct feed from the local network otherwise it could not be the local network broadcast. I never ment to imply got their feed directly from the national network feed.
Again the end reasult is the same the end user gets over cable the local network station programs in NTSC format.

Again, there is no requirement that ANYONE provide a NTSC signal to the cable company, not even today. There IS a requirement that cable must provide an NTSC compatible (ie NTSC channel or if a digital system, a converter box) of the local stations they provide until 2012. This apparent "entitlement" to cable is not correct. Cable can do by talking a station into providing a NTSC fiber link, or at the cable headend, downconvert a digital signal to NTSC.

The only REQUIREMENT of broadcasters is to provide an ATSC signal (over the air) with a minimum of 480i over the air. That is it. If a broadcaster wants to provide a 480i 4:3 to the cable company either as a fiber link or subchannel or microwave feed, then that is between the station and the cable company, nothing in the rules state that has to happen. Most cableco's will just pick up the HD OTA digital signal and convert it to 480i for their subscribers for the next 3 years.

Most cableco's will just pick up the HD OTA digital signal and convert it to 480i for their subscribers for the next 3 years.
Except FIOS who is pulling the analog plug this year in most markets.

Will OTA channels only have their HD channel available or will they send out a Digital SD 4:3 channel, as well?It sounds as though you think there will be 2 channels per broadcaster after 2/17/2009 - there will NOT be. OTA for full power broadcasters will be ATSC and that's it. The "video" signal of the ATSC channel may be in one of 18 different protocols including SD (480i) which is equivalent to NTSC. When they want to broadcast in HD, they will simply do so and the digital stream will then typically be in 720P or 1080i, depending on the specific broadcaster.

TV service providers will receive each broadcasters program stream, decode it, and convert to whatever fits their needs. To get SD (NTSC equivalent) they will down-rezz the stream, if needed. Some may do this at their head ends and some may do this at each subscriber's set top box.

I guess, for cable channels, they will still have both for a while, at least?Until 2/17/2009 I can see them having both. After that they'll need a different means (than receiving off-the-air) of acquring any NTSC signal they want to send down their cables. I suspect they'll just down rezz, if needed, the (often HD) stream for each channel.

Since with digital channles it is possible for a broadcaster to broaqdcaster one high resolution sub-channel and one 480i sub channel many of them plan to broadcast the same program on each using a different lanquage on the 480i sub-channel.

It sounds as though you think there will be 2 channels per broadcaster after 2/17/2009 - there will NOT be.
Actually, my question simply implied the possibilty of two channels. If I had to guess, I would have thought, that indeed there would only be one channel, at that point in the future.
OTA for full power broadcasters will be ATSC and that's it. The "video" signal of the ATSC channel may be in one of 18 different protocols including SD (480i) which is equivalent to NTSC. When they want to broadcast in HD, they will simply do so and the digital stream will then typically be in 720P or 1080i, depending on the specific broadcaster.
Are you saying they change broadcasting aspect ratios on the fly?
I think they always broadcast 16:9, with some source material 16:9 and some pillarboxed 4:3.
TV service providers will receive each broadcasters program stream, decode it, and convert to whatever fits their needs. To get SD (NTSC equivalent) they will down-rezz the stream, if needed. Some may do this at their head ends and some may do this at each subscriber's set top box.
I would think they would just letterbox 16:9. I think it would just prolong the perceived transition by centercutting 16:9; but maybe some broadcasters will do that?
I think O&O stations will all letterbox.

Many european TV stations broadcast most programs in digital 16:9 and their standard resolution TV sets and digial STBs have the ability to centercut the image since the normall have no meaningfull content on the sides of the frames the same is true in the US.

Actually, my question simply implied the possibilty of two channels. If I had to guess, I would have thought, that indeed there would only be one channel, at that point in the future.

Most stations will only do one subchannel. It costs them federal fees to use more than one subchannel.

Are you saying they change broadcasting aspect ratios on the fly?
I think they always broadcast 16:9, with some source material 16:9 and some pillarboxed 4:3.

No station changes AR on the fly. They are either 4:3 or 16:9 and then manipulate the image within those confines.

I would think they would just letterbox 16:9. I think it would just prolong the perceived transition by centercutting 16:9; but maybe some broadcasters will do that?
I think O&O stations will all letterbox.

I think you will be surprised.

I read somewhere that many TVs and STBs will not handle the 16:9 480i and 480p formats properly due to a lack of effort on the part of manufacturers to debug their products with these rarely implemented formats. No broadcaster will want to use those modes if they wind up crashing even a fraction of boxes in their viewing area.

I have heard this statement several times but have seen little evidence that it is true. Before Fox went HD they transmitted in what they called Fox Widescreen which was 480i 16x9. I never heard of anyone that was not able to receive this. foxeng jump in if I am wrong.

The local L.A. ABC has their news in HD and transmits a rebroadcast of the news an hour later on subchannel 2. This rebroadcast is in 4x3 SD. I wish they would do 16x9 SD. It can't take much more bitrate, if any. My wife and I watch this ocassionally when we get home late.

Rick R

Most stations will only do one subchannel. It costs them federal fees to use more than one subchannel.



No station changes AR on the fly. They are either 4:3 or 16:9 and then manipulate the image within those confines.



I think you will be surprised.
One of our PBS stations has a .1, .2, and a .3, and the other station does as well. The station from another private university has .1, .2, .3, and .4, as does our PAX affiliate.

We have 4 PBS subchannels, 5 TBN, 4 ION, 2 NBC, 2 CBS. CW has 2 but one is an empty signal. ABC, FOX, and MyN have 1.

Since with digital channles it is possible for a broadcaster to broaqdcaster one high resolution sub-channel and one 480i sub channel many of them plan to broadcast the same program on each using a different lanquage on the 480i sub-channel.

Why bother? You can already do multiple audio languages on a single feed without having to use a subchannel. I think some PBS stations do it, check for a SAP function on your digital stations.

Are you saying they change broadcasting aspect ratios on the fly?
I think they always broadcast 16:9, with some source material 16:9 and some pillarboxed 4:3.

They technically can change aspect ratios and even broadcasting formats (480i to 1080i, for instance) on the fly, but most stations generally do not. The only stations I've ever seen do this are certain PBS stations (KET in Kentucky, AETN in Arkansas, etc). All other stations simply upconvert any SD material on their HD channel to HD.

I wish they would do 16x9 SD. It can't take much more bitrate, if any. My wife and I watch this ocassionally when we get home late.

In fact, the ATSC standard supports 480i in resolution up to 720x480i (most do 704x480i) and supports both of those resolutions in either 4x3 or 16x9 mode. So in fact it could potentially take zero extra bits (I estimate) to support 16x9 transmission. I imagine stations are not doing this, however, due to confusion on the part of people getting boxes now. They'd rather do the SD in 4x3 to fit all the square TVs that are currently out there.

- Trip

Again, there is no requirement that ANYONE provide a NTSC signal to the cable company, not even today. There IS a requirement that cable must provide an NTSC compatible (ie NTSC channel or if a digital system, a converter box) of the local stations they provide until 2012.


What do you make of the Sony-Cable Cos agreement reached today?



Sony, cable firms act to eliminate set-top boxes
Pact with operators would set new standard for plug-and-play TVs, devices
By David B. Wilkerson, MarketWatch
Last update: 4:31 p.m. EDT May 27, 2008

CHICAGO (MarketWatch) -- Consumers will be able to buy digital televisions that allow them to receive cable service without a set-top box, under a landmark agreement announced Tuesday between Sony Corp. and six of the biggest U.S. cable operators.
Industry officials said that by eliminating the set-top box, cable companies can simplify installation and reduce costs, while consumers can worry about one less component in their home theater systems.
It establishes a technological standard that will enable a new generation of TVs to include video-on-demand, digital video recording, interactive programming guides, and other services, the National Cable & Telecommunications Association said.
"This is a landmark agreement which will provide a national, open and interactive platform resulting in more choices of services and products for consumers," said Kyle McSlarrow, head of the group, in a written statement.

One reason I ask about this is that I've discovered the manufacturers (Sony, et al) of new digital televisions do NOT enable users to access, view or use EPG (electronic program guide) information that is embedded in the ATSC signal. (You can confirm this situation with a visit to your local television emporium.)

My Samsung STB feeds this handy and valuable information to my three-year old HD-ready set, but no digital TV currently on the market delivers this info which really upset me when I found this out in December. I consult the EPG program grid to decide what programs I want to watch in the evening -- and by 'marking' those programs, I instruct my tuner to change to the appropriate channel(s) when the program starts.

So, will this 'eliminate set-top boxes' agreement bring *all* the intelligent functions of a STB fully back into the set's ATSC tuner? Will this mean digital televisions on the market will fully support the ATSC standard, including the display of EPG program guide information - and enable a user to tune their set from the EPG info?

Why bother? You can already do multiple audio languages on a single feed without having to use a subchannel. I think some PBS stations do it, check for a SAP function on your digital stations.
An even better way I've seen done is that stations will have 2 separate subchannels that point to the same video with different audio tracks. I know KTLA was doing this at one point (5.1 HD English, 5.2 SD The Tube, 5.3 HD Spanish), but I'm not sure what they've done since dropping the sub. WMVS does it too, with live radar or traffic cameras set to different audio on 10.5-10.8. From the perspective of explaining it to average viewers, it's much easier to tell them to push [Channel +] than it is to explain how to use the SAP/MTS/whatever else button, or god forbid, start digging around in menus. I would love to see a couple major station owners come to an agreement to put Spanish audio on .9 on all their channels. Once a couple of the big players did it, it wouldn't take long for everyone else to fall in line or risk losing the Spanish-speaking audience.

An even better way I've seen done is that stations will have 2 separate subchannels that point to the same video with different audio tracks.

I know of these stations doing that:

WGN-DT Chicago

Plus all of Bahakel's stations, including:
WCCB-DT Charlotte
WOLO-DT Columbia SC
WFXB-DT Florence/Myrtle Beach
WAKA-DT Montgomery
WBBJ-DT Jackson TN

Saves bandwidth certainly. No need to encode the video twice if you're using the exact same feed! =)

- Trip

One reason I ask about this is that I've discovered the manufacturers (Sony, et al) of new digital televisions do NOT enable users to access, view or use EPG (electronic program guide) information that is embedded in the ATSC signal. (You can confirm this situation with a visit to your local television emporium.)

?
What are you talking about? My 2 year old Sony XS955 CRT HD TV displays the info as I assume most others do. Maybe not all of it but enough to know the info about current program.

I'm not sure how "landmark" that decision really is - set makers have been working on including STB like functions in their TVs for some time. The cablecard slot was the first attempt and I guess this is the second attempt. Like always the devil will be in the details.

I can see it now:

CS: Sorry, sir we don't support that model Sony - only this model. You'll still have to get an STB.:rolleyes:

One of our PBS stations has a .1, .2, and a .3, and the other station does as well. The station from another private university has .1, .2, .3, and .4, as does our PAX affiliate.

I was referring to a simulcast 4:3 subchannel on commercial stations.

I know of these stations doing that:

WGN-DT Chicago

Plus all of Bahakel's stations, including:
WCCB-DT Charlotte
WOLO-DT Columbia SC
WFXB-DT Florence/Myrtle Beach
WAKA-DT Montgomery
WBBJ-DT Jackson TN

Saves bandwidth certainly. No need to encode the video twice if you're using the exact same feed! =)

- Trip

Yep, that us. I've been pushing one network to make this standard. It could be the -9 channel on all affilaites and could easily be done with the splicer.

Many stations that use Flexicoders don't have the ability to do this without
spending more money.

A read of the FCC rules on SAP is in order here, I think some may be surprised once analog is shutoff at the lack of SAP.

One reason I ask about this is that I've discovered the manufacturers (Sony, et al) of new digital televisions do NOT enable users to access, view or use EPG (electronic program guide) information that is embedded in the ATSC signal. (You can confirm this situation with a visit to your local television emporium.)

My Samsung STB feeds this handy and valuable information to my three-year old HD-ready set, but no digital TV currently on the market delivers this info which really upset me when I found this out in December. I consult the EPG program grid to decide what programs I want to watch in the evening -- and by 'marking' those programs, I instruct my tuner to change to the appropriate channel(s) when the program starts.

So, will this 'eliminate set-top boxes' agreement bring *all* the intelligent functions of a STB fully back into the set's ATSC tuner? Will this mean digital televisions on the market will fully support the ATSC standard, including the display of EPG program guide information - and enable a user to tune their set from the EPG info?


All TV's with digital tuners receive EPG info from ATSC. IT IS A REQUIREMENT!!. However there are stations that do not do it even though they have to. In my area NBC station (which is owned by NBC) does not send any info.

What do you make of the Sony-Cable Cos agreement reached today?



Sony, cable firms act to eliminate set-top boxes
Pact with operators would set new standard for plug-and-play TVs, devices
By David B. Wilkerson, MarketWatch
Last update: 4:31 p.m. EDT May 27, 2008

CHICAGO (MarketWatch) -- Consumers will be able to buy digital televisions that allow them to receive cable service without a set-top box, under a landmark agreement announced Tuesday between Sony Corp. and six of the biggest U.S. cable operators.
Industry officials said that by eliminating the set-top box, cable companies can simplify installation and reduce costs, while consumers can worry about one less component in their home theater systems.
It establishes a technological standard that will enable a new generation of TVs to include video-on-demand, digital video recording, interactive programming guides, and other services, the National Cable & Telecommunications Association said.
"This is a landmark agreement which will provide a national, open and interactive platform resulting in more choices of services and products for consumers," said Kyle McSlarrow, head of the group, in a written statement.

Panasonic is already out with the sets that have Tru2way. This is really only for cable tv and has absolutely nothing to do with OTA.

All TV's with digital tuners receive EPG info from ATSC. IT IS A REQUIREMENT!!. However there are stations that do not do it even though they have to. In my area NBC station (which is owned by NBC) does not send any info.

Sure, they *receive* EPG info (after all, it's embedded in the ATSC signal and mandated by the FCC), but the sets on the shelves today do not *display* this information. Go to a store and see if you can find a set that makes the EPG available.

While the FCC mandates broadcasters (and cable and satellite cos) to deliver EPG in the ATSC signal, the FCC has no control over what the manufacturers of television sets put into their product. And apparently, they've decided to leave out this functionality.

Again, I urge you to confirm what I claim. Visit your local TV dealer and see if you can find any button on the remote or on-screen menu that would bring up the electronic program guide.

What are you talking about? My 2 year old Sony XS955 CRT HD TV displays the info as I assume most others do. Maybe not all of it but enough to know the info about current program.

Things have changed since you bought your set. New sets on the market today don't support EPG.

Check it out - visit your local TV dealer and see if you can find a way to bring up EPG on the screen. I was amazed to discover this last Christmas, and the last time I checked in March or so, on-screen EPG was still unavailable.

Sure, they *receive* EPG info (after all, it's embedded in the ATSC signal and mandated by the FCC), but the sets on the shelves today do not *display* this information. Go to a store and see if you can find a set that makes the EPG available.

While the FCC mandates broadcasters (and cable and satellite cos) to deliver EPG in the ATSC signal, the FCC has no control over what the manufacturers of television sets put into their product. And apparently, they've decided to leave out this functionality.

Again, I urge you to confirm what I claim. Visit your local TV dealer and see if you can find any button on the remote or on-screen menu that would bring up the electronic program guide.


They all display the EPG info. I do not know what sets you checked. It works on Samsung, Sony and Mitsubishi. Most sets do not have EPG button, usually you have to press info button. Also most stores do not have any OTA antenna, so I do not know how you can check, since they use internal ATSC promo loop. FCC has the control over it what they put in sets. EPG is part of the ATSC standard, and has to be included in the set.

Things have changed since you bought your set. New sets on the market today don't support EPG.

Check it out - visit your local TV dealer and see if you can find a way to bring up EPG on the screen. I was amazed to discover this last Christmas, and the last time I checked in March or so, on-screen EPG was still unavailable.


I think you need to play with a few of the current sets. Most of the ones I have seen do display EPG. Now, how well the do is debateable. Of course,
if they arein store demos playing from a Sencore Server, or fed by satellite through an instore distro, you won't see EPG then.

also- if they are fed by cable then sometimes the station doesn't include the PSIP data on the feed they give the cable head ends.

You engineers know best but the explanation i heard was that in an effort to give hte best quality signal, a station might get a fiber feed to hand to the cable people from a point in their chain before the PSIP data is inserted. Sounded plausable

The low end TV's do not DISPLAY an EPG but if you ask for info it can tell you about that program only. And cable is the source that strips out EPG before it enters their system and replaced by their own EPG. If the stations send it, it is available to all. It is going to be interesting to see how cable handles the dynamic EPG that stations will be required to transmit to handle runover of programs so peoples DVRs don't stop short.

I think you need to play with a few of the current sets. Most of the ones I have seen do display EPG. Now, how well the do is debateable. Of course,
if they arein store demos playing from a Sencore Server, or fed by satellite through an instore distro, you won't see EPG then.

I do have a 32" Sharp LCD that I bought in late 2007 that has no program guide display. It will show program title but no description or anything else when changing OTA channels. There is no full guide that can be pulled up. I checked the manual from front to back and it mentions nothing about program guides.

Now my Samsung set that I bought 3 years ago does have full guide support.

I'm sure there are still sets on the market that do still support program guides but I happened to get one that does not really support program guides the way it really should.

I do have a 32" Sharp LCD that I bought in late 2007 that has no program guide display. It will show program title but no description or anything else when changing OTA channels. There is no full guide that can be pulled up. I checked the manual from front to back and it mentions nothing about program guides.

Now my Samsung set that I bought 3 years ago does have full guide support.

I'm sure there are still sets on the market that do still support program guides but I happened to get one that does not really support program guides the way it really should.


Well there are different implemantations. Some sets like your Sharp show program title, some show descriptions, but they all receive something. The problem also is the stations. Some only send program title without anything else.

One reason I ask about this is that I've discovered the manufacturers (Sony, et al) of new digital televisions do NOT enable users to access, view or use EPG (electronic program guide) information that is embedded in the ATSC signal. (You can confirm this situation with a visit to your local television emporium.)

My Vizio that I purchased in the last year displays the PSIP program information. It doesn't display a 24 hour guide but it displays current and next program information. I have a MIT MDR-200 STB that has an extensive guide display. It displays detailed information by channel or summary information across all channels. The only drawback is that you have to visit each channel to get the multi channel program information populated. Here in Los Angeles most channels do a good job of putting in their PSIP program guide. What the STB/TV needs is a feature where at night it automatically comes on and visits each chanel to populate the guide.

Rick R

I do have a 32" Sharp LCD that I bought in late 2007 that has no program guide display. It will show program title but no description or anything else when changing OTA channels. There is no full guide that can be pulled up. I checked the manual from front to back and it mentions nothing about program guides.

Now my Samsung set that I bought 3 years ago does have full guide support.

I'm sure there are still sets on the market that do still support program guides but I happened to get one that does not really support program guides the way it really should.


Thanks for a confirming observation. For the most part, other commenters are simply speculating on this matter. I urge them to visit their local dealer and wander through the menus of the sets (this can be done regardless of how the store has cabled them; all you're checking are the set's menus/functions.) Here's what they'll find: a program information grid will not be displayed.

Christmas 2007, I bought a Sony KDL 32M2000. When I got it home and hooked up (OTA), I discovered it didn't display any PSIP info (the 'technical term' for EPG) -- and, curiously, even required the clock to be *manually* set. !!! (The ATSC signal provides a clock signal every *second*, so why would anyone need to manually set a clock?) I returned it immediately.

=====
I posted the below a couple of months ago in my local HDTV info and reception forum within AVS:

A/65C of the ATSC (Advanced Television Standards Committee) standard specifies:

"The following PSIP data shall be included in all ATSC-compliant Transport Streams to be transmitted via terrestrial broadcast:
(...)
• The System Time Table (STT), defining the current date and time of day.
• The first four Event Information Tables (EIT-0, EIT-1, EIT-2 and EIT-3) describing 12 hours of events (TV programs), each with a coverage of 3 hours, and including all of the virtual channels listed in the TVCT."

This can be found on the Web at http://www.atsc.org/standards/a65.html

I have taken digital photos of the PSIP info I get with my current setup (a Zenith HD-ready set that gets its ATSC signal through a Samsung set top box). And I have a picture of a new Sony HDTV set showing where the PSIP information would be displayed if the Sony made it accessible (which it didn't).

Here's a link to those pictures:http://picasaweb.google.com/theller09/ManufacturersOfNewHDTVsAreDenyingTheirCustomersThePSIPInfoSe tForthInTheATSCStandard

I think this situation (manufacturers selling sets that don't fully support the ATSC standard) needs to be examined and quickly remedied. With the February 2009 cut-off date for digital television rapidly approaching, it is unimaginable that the very manufacturers who lobbied for adoption of and transition to a digital broadcast standard in the U.S. would seek to sell U.S. consumers millions of pricey televisions that do not deliver the full advantages digital television enables.

I have written to the FCC (they reply that they don't regulate manufacturers, only broadcasters), to my senior U.S. Senator, to my congressman, to a couple of individuals who have had a role in developing the ATSC standard (including one who works at Sony). Thus far, I've had very little success in getting these individuals to 1) understand the issue; 2) appreciate its importance; and 3) do anything about it.

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I received, through my U.S. Senator's office, the following reply from the FCC to concerns I raised:

February 22, 2008

The Honorable Richard G. Lugar
United States Senate
306 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20510

Dear Senator Lugar:

Thank you for your letter on behalf of your constituent, Mr. Thomas A. Heller of Columbus, Indiana, concerning the capability of digital televisions sets to process and display Program and System Information Protocol ("PSIP") data embedded in digital television signals. I appreciate the opportunity to respond.

As Mr. Heller indicates in his correspondence, Commission rules require digital television broadcasters to comply with signal standards established by the Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC), including the standard that requires broadcasters to include PSIP data in their terrestrial broadcast streams (47 C.F.R. Sec. 73.682(d)). No federal statute or regulation, however, requires digital television sets to receive, process and display all information and data in the PSIP Tables.

As a general matter, the Commission's authority to regulate the consumer electronics industry is circumscribed, and the agency does not have explicit statutory authority to require that digital television sets process and display all PSIP information. The few rules the Commision has established in this area have been tied to an explicit directive in federal statute. For example, the All Channel Receiver Act of 1962 (47 U.S.C. 303(s)) directed the Commission to adopt rules requiring all television sets to have the capability to receive both VHF and UHF signals. More recently, this authority served as the basis for the adoption of rules that require all television sets be capable of receiving digital television signals (this mandate was upheld by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in November 2003.) In addition, the Television Decoder Circuitry Act of 1990 (47 U.S.C. 303(u)) directed the Commission to implement rules that require television sets to be equipped to process and display closed captioning information, and Section 551 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 (47 U.S.C. 303(x)) directed the Commission to establish rules requiring television sets to contain "V-chip" technology to enable blocking of programming accompanied by an age and content rating.

While the Commission does not have explicit statutory authority to require that digital television receivers process and display the data in the PSIP Tables, all electronics manufacturers have access to the PSIP data embedded in the broadcast stream. Thus, manufacturers may design and build digital television equipment that includes features that are supported by the PSIP data. For example, electronic program guides that are integrated into digital television equipment utilize the PSIP data to populate the guide with up-to-date channel listings and descriptions of upcoming programming.

I hope this information is helpful. Please do not hesitate to contact me if I may be of further assistance.

Sincerely,

Michael S. Perko
Chief, Office of Communications and Industry Information
Media Bureau
Federal Communications Commission

The low end TV's do not DISPLAY an EPG but if you ask for info it can tell you about that program only. And cable is the source that strips out EPG before it enters their system and replaced by their own EPG. If the stations send it, it is available to all. ....

isn't that illegal according to current FCC regulations?

(subchannels that point to the same video but have different audio tracks)

Plus all of Bahakel's stations, including:
WCCB-DT Charlotte
WOLO-DT Columbia SC
Yep, that us.

I know WCCB is doing it, but is WOLO really doing it too? Last time I looked, a couple weeks ago, before I hit the road on vacation, WOLO was still doing HD on 25-1, SD on 25-2 and weather radar on 25-3.

As far as a full EPG, some of the brand new, higher end Sony flat panel LCD's that are out have TV Guide on Screen. Probably digitally-capable, too, since why would they release only analog-capable ones now? Looks like it's finally making it's way back. I figured it was just a matter of time, and you'd probably be seeing it as we got closer to the analog cutoff, since they've been working on inserting it in digital OTA signals for the last year or so.

There are also a Mitsubishi model or two that are being sold that have it.

isn't that illegal according to current FCC regulations?

No. The FCC only requires stations to transmit it, not receivers to receive it. Interesting, huh?

The only thing my Hitachi plasma (which I bought this past January) displays is the info for the program I am currently viewing.

Christmas 2007, I bought a Sony KDL 32M2000. When I got it home and hooked up (OTA), I discovered it didn't display any PSIP info (the 'technical term' for EPG) -- and, curiously, even required the clock to be *manually* set. !!! (The ATSC signal provides a clock signal every *second*, so why would anyone need to manually set a clock?) I returned it immediately.


This may be a good feature. Many TV stations do not set their clock accurately so setting it manually may be a good thing. My MIT MDR-200 OTA STB only gets the time from the station. I have had recordings shut down because the incorrect TV station clock told the STB the recording should be over.

To respond to the rest of your post. I DO NOT want the government telling manufactures what capabilities to put in their TVs. Competitive pressures will add features much faster than calling your congressman, them talking to the FCC, and the FCC writing regulations that are then outdated by the time they are implemented. Of course then some politician to gain brownie points with some obscure group requires a feature that drives up the cost of TVs for everyone.

My 2 cents.

Rick R

This may be a good feature. Many TV stations do not set their clock accurately so setting it manually may be a good thing. My MIT MDR-200 OTA STB only gets the time from the station. I have had recordings shut down because the incorrect TV station clock told the STB the recording should be over.

So can users incorrectly set their clock. Same result. The inclusion of a clock signal is an advancement enabling functionality not available in the analog realm. I have noticed, however, that shows like "Lost" often have a time-slot extending a couple minutes into the next hour (e.g. 10:02). I'm sure that's some strategy adopted by the networks to foil those who do too much automated recording in order to time-shift their viewing and avoid commercials.

To respond to the rest of your post. I DO NOT want the government telling manufactures what capabilities to put in their TVs. Competitive pressures will add features much faster than calling your congressman, them talking to the FCC, and the FCC writing regulations that are then outdated by the time they are implemented. Of course then some politician to gain brownie points with some obscure group requires a feature that drives up the cost of TVs for everyone.

My 2 cents.

Rick R

I hear you and I appreciate the concern with meddling. And I agree that competition will add features (provided consumers are aware of them, of course, which seems a condition absent wrt PSIP.)

But that doesn't explain why this feature is not present in *any* set on the shelves. You'd think that some manufacturers would at least promote PSIP features to distinguish their sets from their competitors, wouldn't you? But no.....

If the industry wants to bring a new experience to the public by adopting a new standard, lobbies Congress to mandate the transition to that standard, requires broadcasters and cable & satellite carriers to make significant new investment in equipment in order to fully comply with that standard, and desires that everyone ditch their old analog set and replace it with a pricey digital set, then shouldn't manufacturers sell sets that support the features designed within the standard?

I read where Sears and some other retailers were recently fined big $ by the FTC because they had sold analog sets that did not carry a label informing purchasers the sets would not work standalone after Feb 2009. I heard that the allowable fine, per violation, was $8,000. For selling a, what, $200 set?!

If an $8,000 fine was applicable to the sale of a single mislabeled analog television, what size fine might be appropriate for manufacturing/selling a digital television that 'short-sheets' unaware consumers by eliminating features supported by the new digital standard?

I'm just saying that all involved should adhere to ATSC standards, once adopted.

No. The FCC only requires stations to transmit it, not receivers to receive it. Interesting, huh?

As far as RF I think the FCC only cares about transmissions whether purposeful, accidental or coincidental.

So can users incorrectly set their clock. Same result. The inclusion of a clock signal is an advancement enabling functionality not available in the analog realm. I have noticed, however, that shows like "Lost" often have a time-slot extending a couple minutes into the next hour (e.g. 10:02). I'm sure that's some strategy adopted by the networks to foil those who do too much automated recording in order to time-shift their viewing and avoid commercials.


Clock signals are sent over analog TV, VCRs can have the reset feature.

The shows running long also hold the viewer to that network. If you miss the start of shows on another network you might not tune to it to watch, especially dramas which set a plot in a flashback in the first two minutes of the hour and even runs the opening credits next (or similar techniques).

(subchannels that point to the same video but have different audio tracks)



I know WCCB is doing it, but is WOLO really doing it too? Last time I looked, a couple weeks ago, before I hit the road on vacation, WOLO was still doing HD on 25-1, SD on 25-2 and weather radar on 25-3.

Not right at the moment,for several reasons. But it will return, once I get the time to change out the encoders.

We are also doing it on WFXB Myrtle Beach.