I recently purchased a Pioneer Elite PRO-1150HD for the bedroom and the unit has a cable card slot. I'm using a HD/DVR cable box with my main TV, but thought the cable card might be better since space is limited in the bedroom. I've got some questions though.

What features will I lose with the cable card?

I'm not concerned about the DVR or movies on demand, but I do want HD and a program guide.

My provider says they don't have a self-install kit for the cable card. Installation is $34.06. Are these things really that hard to install?

Anyway, if someone can explain the pros/cons with each it would be appreciated.

IMHO, cable cards are the antichrist. They are about as reliable as a 2 legged dog which ill elaborate upon in a moment.

As far as what features you will lose: cable cards are little more than a "key" to decrypt scrambled channels. Essentially, just a dumb one way passive device to open the lock for payable channels. To elaborate, one way means that they receive their channels from the head end but cannot communicate back to it. Due to this, you lose a few features that are two way dependent. You will most definitely not receive a channel guide or on demand; you will possibly not receive a select amount of HD channels and likely not see any additional HD channels your provider adds. This last part is due to most providers migrating to a switched digital (SDV) delivery currently or in the short term. SDV utilizes a two way pipeline to receive channels. Many companies are implementing their new HD channels in SDV and the cable card users wont be receiving them.

As for self installs, not a chance. The install process is extremely easy but is too fickle to send a customer one card and expect it all to go well. The TV or Tivo firmware seems to pick and choose if and when it wants to accept that card. It also seems to pick and choose when it wants to completely ignore that it has a card installed. I have worked with hundreds of CC problems and in my experience, there is no rhyme or reason to the problems, they just "happen." No cause, no rational, they just decide to fowl up whenever it seems clever. In my desire for a siolution, i have read that there is little standardization for the firmware in the receiving device. All cable cards are the same but the recepticals are all different and some work through the problems better than others.

Finally, the one remaining thing I hate about cable cards is their lack of a forward error correction carrier. This is a extra stream of data the box uses to deal with errors that are inevitably always present. Since the cable card is a raw passive device, it will display those errors as tiles on screen.

All in all, too many problems with them but the FCC mandates some sort of OCAP device so therefore they must exist. Unfortunately, the are junk but since they exist, it is assumed they are without flaw.

IMHO, cable cards are the antichrist. They are about as reliable as a 2 legged dog which ill elaborate upon in a moment.

Hahaha. Really? Strange, I've had both SA and Motorola cards; I've seen enough hate for them from the cable business, but with no real justification - the cards I've received have worked first try, and without any issue. It's hardly statistical evidence, but if they're so horrible, I should have seen them fail at some point, right? Right?

You will most definitely not receive a channel guide or on demand; you will possibly not receive a select amount of HD channels and likely not see any additional HD channels your provider adds. This last part is due to most providers migrating to a switched digital (SDV) delivery currently or in the short term. SDV utilizes a two way pipeline to receive channels. Many companies are implementing their new HD channels in SDV and the cable card users wont be receiving them.

Until the tuning resolvers start hitting; I'm hoping that that will happen starting in Q3 (a bit later than promised, but it will happen). If the cable industry really doesn't want DCR+, it will happen. And as far as "on demand", I don't even get "on demand" with my current provider, even with their box; with my last provider, their selection of "on demand" was pretty useless, and PPV movies looked pretty lousy.

Cable industry people go on about their "extra services", none of which I can seem to really care about; they don't provide anything that interests me. Really, they need to work on having something *interesting* before they go off about "but you're gonna miss out on *all this*!"

As for self installs, not a chance. The install process is extremely easy but is too fickle to send a customer one card and expect it all to go well.

You mean you can't trust the customer to read back a series of numbers? Or the people at the headend can't be trusted to copy them down right? In my experiences with the cards, that's really been the only tricky part - once they get those numbers, everything's fine, but that's really the only "difficult" part.

It also seems to pick and choose when it wants to completely ignore that it has a card installed. I have worked with hundreds of CC problems and in my experience, there is no rhyme or reason to the problems, they just "happen." No cause, no rational, they just decide to fowl up whenever it seems clever.

I find that interesting given that my TiVo has been working continuously for the past 6 months with *not one* CableCARD related issue; my cable provider wants to blame each problem on them, but the only issues have been screwups on their end (which the local techs admitted to over the phone with me, and fixed). By your reasoning, I shouldn't be able to turn on my TV without a CableCARD problem cropping up, yet somehow that's not the case.

In my desire for a siolution, i have read that there is little standardization for the firmware in the receiving device. All cable cards are the same but the recepticals are all different and some work through the problems better than others.

There aren't that many controller chips; also, if they're so terrible, then *why*, oh why, is CableLabs certifying the devices? The cable industry's own research and certification arm gave them an A-ok, and you're saying "they're complete crap". Guess CableLabs isn't doing its job. And who runs CableLabs?

Finally, the one remaining thing I hate about cable cards is their lack of a forward error correction carrier. This is a extra stream of data the box uses to deal with errors that are inevitably always present. Since the cable card is a raw passive device, it will display those errors as tiles on screen.

You mean as opposed to the cable company boxes, which show a tiled picture pretty much all the time? I found the image quality, especially on HD channels, to be significantly *better* coming from my TiVo than with a cableco box.

All in all, too many problems with them but the FCC mandates some sort of OCAP device so therefore they must exist. Unfortunately, the are junk but since they exist, it is assumed they are without flaw.

No one's saying they're without flaw (or at least I'm not), but if the cable industry spent less time hating them and seething about "damn you for asking for CableCARDs, and damn the government for forcing this horrible bastard technology (that's kind of our own damn fault, but never mind that) on us", maybe it wouldn't be so horrible. It's like a 5 year old being forced to go somewhere they don't want to, and making the trip a living hell for everyone else because they're mad about it. Grow up, please.

Now that I've completely derailed from the OP... you will not get a program guide with the CableCARDs in a TV. For that, you'd need a cable box, unless you're going with TiVo (which it sounds like you're not, but putting them into a TV). No iPPV, no on-demand, which it sounds like is a non-issue to you. If space is at a premium, maybe look at the CableCARD solution, otherwise you'll probably be best off just getting their box.

As an aside to the original threads question.

The Cable Companies have never really been in favor of
cable cards nor compatiblity.

Why?

You guessed it, rental fees for their STB.


John

Hahaha. Really? Strange, I've had both SA and Motorola cards; I've seen enough hate for them from the cable business, but with no real justification - the cards I've received have worked first try, and without any issue. It's hardly statistical evidence, but if they're so horrible, I should have seen them fail at some point, right? Right?

The justification comes from any given cable company issuing cards to about 5% of their total subscribers and 90% of that 5% finding themselves with constant problems. Pat yourself on the back for falling into that remaining 10% but im sincerely unmoved. Consider yourself the exception, not the rule.

Until the tuning resolvers start hitting; I'm hoping that that will happen starting in Q3 (a bit later than promised, but it will happen). If the cable industry really doesn't want DCR+, it will happen. And as far as "on demand", I don't even get "on demand" with my current provider, even with their box; with my last provider, their selection of "on demand" was pretty useless, and PPV movies looked pretty lousy.

Subjective and doesnt necessarily provide anything useful for the OP so Im going to leave this one alone.

Cable industry people go on about their "extra services", none of which I can seem to really care about; they don't provide anything that interests me. Really, they need to work on having something *interesting* before they go off about "but you're gonna miss out on *all this*!"

Refer to my statement above


You mean you can't trust the customer to read back a series of numbers? Or the people at the headend can't be trusted to copy them down right? In my experiences with the cards, that's really been the only tricky part - once they get those numbers, everything's fine, but that's really the only "difficult" part.

You've nailed it! This serious failure rate is purely a result of paring problems. Maybe I should have been more clear - "As for self installs, not a chance. The install process is extremely easy but is too fickle to send a customer one card and expect it all to go well. - but I am not sure how. It appears I just said it was easy yet your reply suggests I hadn't already said that. Reading comprehension would save us both some time I suppose.

Back on track. The issue is hardly as simple as calling in an incorrect host and cable card ID. I stated fickle because I witness the magic of it all every day. The receiving device can either fail to accept cards, fail to complete the update, fail to receive the activation hits, fail to reauthorize the sub expiration or in the case of an LG plasma the other day, fail to remember it is a cable card device all together. This TV removed the CC section from the menu all together. LG is aware of the problem and is sending a tech out this week. I am curious to hear his/her experiences.

I hope I was clear enough this time about the "difficult" part.

I find that interesting given that my TiVo has been working continuously for the past 6 months with *not one* CableCARD related issue; my cable provider wants to blame each problem on them, but the only issues have been screwups on their end (which the local techs admitted to over the phone with me, and fixed). By your reasoning, I shouldn't be able to turn on my TV without a CableCARD problem cropping up, yet somehow that's not the case.

Not worth debating. One successful consumer experience is hardly moving.



There aren't that many controller chips; also, if they're so terrible, then *why*, oh why, is CableLabs certifying the devices? The cable industry's own research and certification arm gave them an A-ok, and you're saying "they're complete crap". Guess CableLabs isn't doing its job. And who runs CableLabs?

They have to have an A-ok. It is mandated that they exist. And Cable cards were initially developed with the right intention and capability.

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html
The media has frequently reported that first-generation CableCARD 1.0 modules are one-way devices1. This is simply not true. CableLabs had always intended to develop the CableCARD module and host receiver standards with two-way capability. However the manufacturers of digital TVs requested that a host standard be developed that only had one-way capability. This one-way cable-ready receiver was defined by the FCC's Plug & Play order and by the Joint Test Suite (JTS). It is the definition of this one-way receiver that lacks the ability for two-way functionality, not the CableCARD module. While the FCC defined the elements of the one-way cable-ready receiver, CableLabs continued to define specifications for two-way receivers.

The problem originates in the host device not being 100% compatible with the cable card. However the cable companies are caught in the middle supporting a device where calling in a set of numbers is the entirety of their involvement.


You mean as opposed to the cable company boxes, which show a tiled picture pretty much all the time? I found the image quality, especially on HD channels, to be significantly *better* coming from my TiVo than with a cableco box.

Ok, there is actually no rational truth to this. A cable box has an additional data carrier meant to fight issues that a cable card does not. So if you experienced significant tiling, you had a bad box, bad install or both. All which are privy to a cable card sans the ability to fight errors.

Additionally, the picture quality is all in your head. Both items are interpreting the same binary code with instructions to display a picture. I hope youre not under the impression that cable cards are just receiving a cooler binary code.

The reality of what you are seeing is most HDTV's can calibrate the picture settings of each individual input. Anything you thought you saw is purely the difference settings from box input to the cable card source. Set the settings identical with both items connected and any difference you see will be all in your head, or bias. Unless there is some cool new data stream I hadnt heard about that cable cards are receiving. Its possible!



No one's saying they're without flaw (or at least I'm not), but if the cable industry spent less time hating them and seething about "damn you for asking for CableCARDs, and damn the government for forcing this horrible bastard technology (that's kind of our own damn fault, but never mind that) on us", maybe it wouldn't be so horrible. It's like a 5 year old being forced to go somewhere they don't want to, and making the trip a living hell for everyone else because they're mad about it. Grow up, please.

I appears you are saying they are without flaw. I am speaking from 100's of my own personal experiences. So forgive me for bastardizing the technology based on my experience.

I also suppose its safe to assume that you haven't read any of the cable card ranting on this forum. You speak in a somewhat sarcastic tone that leads me to believe you have not. I suggest browsing around the forum and you might find that you are somewhat of an anomaly cable card user. You really have been trouble free and still support cable cards eh? I didnt know they still made folks like you.