Hello all:

I'm unfortunate enough to live in an area with a low-VHF digital which is not moving next year. Even more unfortunate is that it is my PBS station, and greater than 80% of the TV watching in my home is PBS.

WBRA-DT is on channel 3, with a directional pattern that limits signal in my direction. While their maximum power is 7.25 kW, I only receive 2.3 kW in my direction.

First of all, my equipment is as follows:

UHF Antenna: Winegard PR-8800
VHF Antenna: Winegard Ghostkiller (not the one on Winegard's site, this one has no elements wider than 80")
These are combined, run into the house, split, then there's a ~30dB Radio Shack amp on each line before it runs out to the TVs.

Receivers are a WinTV-D which I use personally, plus a Zenith HDV420, a DViCO Fusion5HDTV-USB, and two Zenith DTT900 receivers. I prefer the signal/noise numbers my WinTV-D gives me, so that is the number I will use. Note that the DTT900 will give me clean reception on a UHF when the WinTV-D shows an SNR of 13.8 dB, which is below the point where the WinTV-D even attempts decoding. The DTT900 begins attempting to decode WBRA-DT on 3 much earlier as well, but doesn't get stable enough to watch until the WinTV-D is also stable.

I am located 79 miles from their signal, but due to my stations' location on a mountain, I have line of sight.

Up until yesterday, the signal/noise ratio on WBRA-DT would sit at about 11dB (I need 16.5 for a clean decode). My other signals would max out the meter at 21.4dB, except for WWCW-DT which repeats another station and thus is unimportant, and WDRL-DT 41 which would often be at about 4dB.

Yesterday, I took my Channel Master CM7777 amp which I use for traveling and added it into the line before the signals are split the first time. This improved my signals:

WBRA-DT went from 11dB up to about 13.5dB.
WDRL-DT went from 4dB up to about 10.5dB.

I'm trying to avoid going on the roof at this point, and I'm wondering about something in particular first of all. As it stands, I have the signal being boosted twice before hitting the TVs. I'm wondering if rewiring it so the three amps are all in a line would help matters or not. Does anyone think this might help any?

Assuming that doesn't work for any reason, and there's a very good chance it will not, what would be recommended as a good VHF antenna? It needs to cover the whole VHF band, as in addition to WBRA-DT on 3, I will also have my ABC station, WSET-DT, on channel 13 after the transition. Further, my current antenna cannot quite decode a WVPT-DT 11 (a second PBS) to my north; a superior antenna would likely do so. My requirements are that such an antenna is not too heavy and not too expensive, if at all possible.

Thanks for your time.

- Trip

I would first try the cm 7777 alone at the distribution point (since you dont want to go to the antenna). the uhf antenna into the uhf port and the vhf antenna into the vhf port. set the switch inside to separate and see what happens. You would only use the distribution amps to amplify the long runs...not a good idea to use amps in series like you want.

for vhf the wade vip 306 is a great ch 2-13 antenna. would also replace the pr8800 with the 91xg. will be easier to stack on a shorter mast.

call my dealer in new york for pricing on the vip 306 and UPS frt.(from canada).

vip306
148.5" long
7 db ch 2-6
12 db ch 7-13

Company: Goldcrest Electronics
Address: 700 S. Goodman
Rochester, new york
Zip: 14620
Phone: (585) 546-8464
Fax: (585) 546-4445

unfortunately to improve the situation you would need to revisit the roof at some point. ch 3 requires a long wide antenna to receive and your distances do not help the situation. the smaller vhf antennas do a poor job.

We're pretty much set with the PR-8800 because it works so well. The mast is tall enough to not have to worry about having enough room to stack. Actually, the PR-8800 is at the bottom of the mast and the Ghostkiller is at the top, because it turns out that it worked better that way.

The way it's set up now, the signal from the two antennas is combined outside at the mast, so I've just got the amp boosting the combined input. The two Radio Shack amps are supposed to be pre-amps as well, but my dad wanted to split it so he'd have superior signal in the theater room, thus why there's now two of them.

Would it be dangerous in any way to line them up in series like that? That's my main concern; I don't want to damage either the amps or the receivers.

I know I'm probably going to have to go to the antenna at some point, but unfortunately while I don't mind doing it, my dad will not let me go on the roof (even though I'm now 19), he has to do it, and he doesn't want to. So I'm pretty much stuck doing things indoors and in the attic until I've exhausted the indoor options for the time being.

How much is the VIP-306? I'd heard good things about it but couldn't seem to find someone who actually sold the thing.

Thanks.

- Trip

I'm unfortunate enough to live in an area with a low-VHF digital which is not moving next year. Even more unfortunate is that it is my PBS station, and greater than 80% of the TV watching in my home is PBS.

WBRA-DT is on channel 3, with a directional pattern that limits signal in my direction. While their maximum power is 7.25 kW, I only receive 2.3 kW in my direction.

So, no movement on them getting off of 3 yet?

I just don't think there's enough awareness about the problems with Low-VHF stations, but that will change next year.

So, no movement on them getting off of 3 yet?

I just don't think there's enough awareness about the problems with Low-VHF stations, but that will change next year.

Nope. Their GM's solution to my dad's complaint was "buy satellite" which didn't go over too well. $600+ per year to watch PBS just doesn't sound... sane.

I've tried to get WHTJ-DT out of Charlottesville on channel 46, but for some reason it won't do much. WVIR-DT maxes out the signal meter, but WHTJ-DT just doesn't do anything.

WVPT-DT on 11 is another possibility, but it too is just below decoding. Plus WTVD-DT in Raleigh will become a problem.

- Trip

How much is the VIP-306? I'd heard good things about it but couldn't seem to find someone who actually sold the thing.


I thought it was around $200, but I'm not finding anything right now. Here's a link to the Wade page in the interim:

http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/VIP%20&%20ZIP%20Antennas.pdf

they charge about $160 for the antenna about $20 for ups.. give goldcrest a call I have already given them a heads up on referrals. they are ordered from the factory and ship asap.

Company: Goldcrest Electronics
Address: 700 S. Goodman
Rochester, new york
Zip: 14620
Phone: (585) 546-8464
Fax: (585) 546-4445

It may be worth spending under $10 for an FM rejection trap that spans 88-108 MHz. Most FM traps only span from about 93-108 MHz but the 88-108 MHz ones don't cost any more, they are just slightly less common.

I'll have to keep it in mind. It's up to my dad and what he wants to do, and I don't think he's ready to go climbing on the roof yet.

My dad wants to know if anyone's done any testing on the two Radio Shack amps we have. They're both of model 15-1109 and are supposedly 30 dB VHF/UHF/FM amps.

Also, since I kinda want my CM7777 back rather than having it just sit in the attic, does anyone have an opinion on the Winegard AP8275? It supposedly has higher gain than the 7777 does.

EDIT: About the FM trap, would a powerful C1-class signal on 88.3 which trashes channel 6 cause problems with channel 3?

Thanks again.

- Trip

...About the FM trap, would a powerful C1-class signal on 88.3 which trashes channel 6 cause problems with channel 3?
YES!

YES!

Can you recommend one?

- Trip

You might try taking out the splitter and seeing if the S/N goes up. If it does, then you would benefit slightly from going from a CM 23dB gain amp to a 28 dB Winegard amp, but if it doesn't, then the extra gain won't help.

The CM has a switchable FM trap in it. The good news is, switchable pre-amp FM traps normally cover 88-108 MHz, which is why the directions often say not to use it if you are trying to receive channel 6. The band news is, they aren't very deep, so you still might benefit from an external FMT88 as I recommended above.

It is also possible that a UHF station is overloading the preamp. Even though the CM preamps amplify the signal separately, they use the same power supply and it has been reported here by others that an excessive signal in one band can result in deterioration of a weak signal in the desired band.

Realistically, someone 80 miles from a channel 3 transmitter needs an antenna that is nearly 110" wide. The "gain" over dipole from an 80" wide Ghostkiller at channel 3 will probably be negative, whereas a cheap Antennacraft-grade five or six element lowband antenna, if they still make them, would probably be five or six dB.

call here ask for Dave Dann. he will personally tune an fm filter geared for ch6 with deep notch for a little over $16. and ask for a filter tuned to notch the offending fm frequency placed befor the preamp right off the antenna. would also suggest the winegard ca8800 fm/tv separator as a safeguard inside at the distribution point in addition to the filters prior to the preamp.

another thing to do is use tri shield rg 6 to inhibit strong fm signal ingress. if the fm is real strong,a filters alone will not do the job completely. fm will leak into the wiring.

http://www.cefilter.com

PH. 315.452.0709 TOLL FREE 800.882.1587

Bad news. All the companies that made cheap 88-108 MHz filters that typically sold for $4 to $5 each have stopped offering them. CEfilters can probably furnish an off-the-shelf 88.3 MHz cylindrical notch filter because they probably stock them for all the FM frequencies.

Funny thing about the last batch of cylindrical filters I bought. I had Gamco Filter make me up ten each of two different value cylindrical UHF LPFs and two different value UHF BPFs, and the insertion loss was over 4 dB per filter. Since I was planning on pairing two of them to form cheap bandpass filters, I now have to work around that unforeseen insertion loss, which I can do, but in your situation, you'd get killed by a 4dB insertion loss, so whatever you might use to weaken your undesired FM, you'd better hope that its insertion loss at channel 3 is one dB or less.

...would a powerful C1-class signal on 88.3 which trashes channel 6 cause problems with channel 3?
Are you anywhere near Charlottsville? They have FM transmitters on Carter Mountain that emit out of band interference that mucks up channel 6 analog from Richmond, but channel 6 from Richmond isn't sufficiently motivated to do anything about it even if it is excessive, which I don't know for sure.

Are you anywhere near Charlottsville? They have FM transmitters on Carter Mountain that emit out of band interference that mucks up channel 6 analog from Richmond, but channel 6 from Richmond isn't sufficiently motivated to do anything about it even if it is excessive, which I don't know for sure.

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=wrvl&service=FM&status=L&hours=U

Station in question. I'm a tiny bit south of due east of there, within the red circle. I essentially have to aim through it to get WBRA-DT 3. Here's a better map for you:

http://data.quelorant.com/WhereIAm.jpeg

I'm where the Yellow Flag is, the blue dot is WRVL 88.3C1. The rest are the TV stations. Not pictured, WVIR-DT I can see when I turn the antenna north.

As I said, my dad has it split two ways with one going down to his theater room unsplit and the signal is definitely stronger in there than it is anywhere else, though it can't be more than 0.5 dB SNR. Right now I'm double boosting it, 23 dB from the 7777, then through the splitter to a 30 dB Radio Shack amp from there.

I wouldn't be surprised if a UHF was overloading the amp. WFXR shows up on 26 (and completely blanks out 28) and ironically WBRA analog does the same for 14 and 16.

Interesting information about the Ghostkiller. I'm sure it's less than 80" wide at its widest elements. I might see about borrowing an antenna from a neighbor. She has it sitting in her shed just wasting away, and I'm pretty sure it's wide enough, but it's from Radio Shack I think, and I'd likely want something better. I'll run it by my dad.

Rick, I will show all of your information to my dad. I know the cabling is good in the house, but the rest of it is definitely worth looking at. Thanks so much.

- Trip

I just went into the attic and checked my CM7777... my FM trap was out rather than in, so I fixed that. Unfortunately, I can't tell you if that positively effected the signal or not since I now have e-skip destroying my signal.

- Trip

Well, back to dead band conditions this morning, and I don't think enabling the FM trap in the 7777 helped WBRA-DT any. I'm sitting at 13.6 dB right now.

- Trip

Interesting information about the Ghostkiller. I'm sure it's less than 80" wide at its widest elements.

80" is about the width of rabbit ears (75" for the ones I have), which makes it ok for 5-6, but not 2-4. Hopefully, a 100-110" width will be enough for WBRA 3.

I'm surprised that UHF works well at 80 miles, especially with the trees. But then, it seems I have underestimated Poor Mountain. It's almost 4000'?

There is no need for more than one amplifier. As you've learned, it should be before the splitter, not afterwards.

An antenna that receives channel 3 well will be large. At 79 miles a reduced sized antenna is not sufficient.

I doubt that the 88.3 is overloading your preamp, but it may be interfering with the ATSC tuner.

Your best hope for receiving channel 3 is to vary the height of your antenna until the ground reflection adds to the direct signal. This height will vary depending on the slope of the ground in front of the antenna. An open area in front of the antenna is important for this plan to work.

I have never seen anything specifically written on the effect of ground on low band TV reception. A computer analysis says that for a given antenna height, channel 6 will be about 4 db better than channel 2. Your goal is to find the height that maximizes a channel 3 signal.

If the ground in front of the antenna is flat, the optimum height will be in the 100' range. If the ground slopes down by 12 degrees, the optimum height will be about 30'. If the ground slopes down by 15 degrees, look for the strongest signal at 20' up.

80" is about the width of rabbit ears (75" for the ones I have), which makes it ok for 5-6, but not 2-4. Hopefully, a 100-110" width will be enough for WBRA 3.

I'm surprised that UHF works well at 80 miles, especially with the trees. But then, it seems I have underestimated Poor Mountain. It's almost 4000'?

Turns out I have line of sight to Poor Mountain, according to TV Fool. Poor Mountain is about 3700 feet above sea level without factoring in the heights of the towers up there, and I'm at 525 feet above sea level, for a difference of probably greater than 3300 feet. I did signal testing at a house 93 miles from Poor Mountain and got 7/10/27 from Poor Mountain with an indoor antenna and an amplifier, and 13 from Thaxton Mountain without the amp. All UHF.

I'll have to check if pulling out the Radio Shack amps make anything better, though I've got a number of splits and lengthy cable runs.

I think the first step in fixing WBRA-DT will be a proper VHF antenna. If I still can't receive it, then I'll start looking at varying the height on it. First we have to pick an antenna. I wish the VIP-306SR wasn't so heavy/expensive; my dad's concerned about the mast with regard to the weight. He's talking about putting a larger VHF antenna at the bottom of the mast (maybe even below the rotor) and putting the PR-8800 at the top. I'd rather they both be on the rotor though, since then it starts getting close to where the internet antenna is...

- Trip

Here's an inexpensive Antennacraft lowband (channels 2-6) antenna you can order from Stark Electronics that claims to have 4.9dB of lowband gain (though it doesn't say referenced to what).

Y-5-2-6 Lowband 5 element: $27.09, plus $16.95 shipping and handling to lower 48 states.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm#Y5

I wish that was all I needed, as it certainly looks pretty ideal. Unfortunately, WSET-DT will be returning to channel 13 next summer and the antenna I get will need to be able to handle that as well. I mean, if it wasn't so expensive to ship, I'd say we could try it and see how analog 13 looks with that antenna... Maybe I can ask around in the Roanoke thread and see if someone in Lynchburg would want to buy the antenna if it didn't work out.

Amusingly, though, your advice about the FM trap did fix one issue. I'd always wondered why channel 7 always was somewhat noisy. I just calculated; turns out 88.3C1's second harmonic falls pretty close to channel 7's video signal. The trap in the CM7777 cleaned it up a bit (adding the 7777 had made it worse, it's now about where it used to be).

- Trip

Here's an inexpensive Antennacraft lowband (channels 2-6) antenna Y-5-2-6 Lowband 5 element:



Same antenna $ 22.99; 7.95 shipping.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-2-6

You can get a high band yagi for 13 and add it to the low band antenna using a Pico HLSJ.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HLSJ

All well and good, but will a 5 element antenna have enough gain to receive your ch 3 with your conditions. I have tried those here in the boonies with little success receiving our channel 3 analog....analog and not digital with digital less forgiving.

70 plus miles reception on digital with a 5 element vhf antenna...come on . less than 60 miles would be a different story...maybe.

some other choices
hd4053p forget it...its rated RED zone
the bigger Antenna craft vhf antennas - waste of time poor gain performers
A ch 3 10 element antenna is 15'2" long

In regards to the vip306. It is only 14' 4.5" (148.5") long. about a 17" longer than the hd7084p and shorter than a cm3020 ( 152"). It is speced out at 7db for vhf lo and 12 dbd gain for vhf hi, and 14.5 lbs. Weighs a little less than my hd8200P.

call ce labs for a real fm filter...one for the offending 88.3 and a 94-108 special tuned to handle ch6. 16 bucks each plus ups. with a few ca 8800's inside prior to each tuner if you want. I would also use a uvsj as a band pass filter prior to the preamp...2 actually. one on the vhf side and one on the uhf side. terminate the unused ports on each.

I have a 6000 watt 100.9 1 mile away right in front of me and have been screwing around trying to address it for over 23 years. What I just explained worked...and to be honest using trishield rg6 throughout the home wasthe best thing I ever did. screw quadshield.

70 plus miles reception on digital with a 5 element vhf antenna...come on . less than 60 miles would be a different story...maybe.


True, but the difference in gain between the VIP306 and Y5-2-6 is only 2 db. You can get more than 2 db with extra height, and the lower windload of the Y5-2-6 makes that more feasible.

According to HDTV primer the Channel Master 3671 has the highest gain on channel 3.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
It's available here:
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/3671.htm

but the cm3671 is 25" longer than the vip 306, is a dog on uhf, and weighs about the same.

I don't see that he has to protect channel 6. There is an analog channel 6 in Richmond whose digital assignment is 25 and is staying there.

I used to service the SMATV system at The Collonades in Charlottseville. The harmonics of the FM transmitters on Carter mountain also mucked up channel 8 and 12 from Richmond. I don't remember which radio station was messing up channel 8, but its visual carrier is 181.25 MHz, so it was probably a station around 91 MHz on the FM dial. Unless he absolutely needs to keep getting analog channel 6 from Richmond, then all he needs a simple 88-108 MHz trap

Here's an inexpensive Antennacraft lowband (channels 2-6) antenna you can order from Stark Electronics that claims to have 4.9dB of lowband gain (though it doesn't say referenced to what).

Y-5-2-6 Lowband 5 element: $27.09, plus $16.95 shipping and handling to lower 48 states.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm#Y5

Got mine at Solid Signal cheaper...before you all...
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-2-6
Excellent within 50 miles.:D

Well, right now I have one element for low-VHF, the rest are for upper-VHF and UHF (not that we're using the antenna for UHF). Five elements of proper length would likely beat out one element that's too short. I have line of sight, too, so that should help.

All I need on low-VHF is channel 3. Destroying 6 doesn't bother me.

I'll have to point this whole thread out to my dad and have him look over it.

- Trip

Trip,
It is ironic that you who have provided so much useful and interesting information to the rest of us, should find yourself in such a difficult reception situation. I am especially sympathetic in that PBS is my favorite network and after many disappointments I can not bring my self to pay for satellite or cable and just enjoy the challenge of free over-the-air reception.
I certainly hope that reception of your channel 3 works out successfully. If it does not, there are still free OTA solutions to receiving PBS, legally. Are you familiar with "free-to-air" Ku band satellite? These systems use an 80cm to 120cm dish with a special receiver. There is a lot of information on the Internet, just be aware some sites are devoted to stealing pay services rather than legitimate uses of Ku band.
The least expensive set-up would be to get a FTA receiver and connect it to an old single 18 inch pay service dish and lnb (found at many flea markets). This would get you WOUB from Ohio which Dishnetwork chooses not to encrypt for what ever reason so is perfectly legal to receive in this manner. I do find this signal to be rather over compressed.
Next up in expense would be to use the FTA receiver with at least a one meter dish and get KUSM from Montana. It has one of the best standard definition signals I have ever seen. On a smaller screen it could pass for HD except for the 4:3 ratio of course.
Finally a HD FTA receiver with a one meter dish will bring in the national feed of PBS-HD. The receiver will run about $400 compared to near $100 for the SD receiver and I have not personally tried one yet but again their is a lot of information out there.
Again best of luck with your local reception, but just in case I wanted to let you know of these alternatives.

Trip,
It is ironic that you who have provided so much useful and interesting information to the rest of us, should find yourself in such a difficult reception situation. I am especially sympathetic in that PBS is my favorite network and after many disappointments I can not bring my self to pay for satellite or cable and just enjoy the challenge of free over-the-air reception.
I certainly hope that reception of your channel 3 works out successfully. If it does not, there are still free OTA solutions to receiving PBS, legally. Are you familiar with "free-to-air" Ku band satellite? These systems use an 80cm to 120cm dish with a special receiver. There is a lot of information on the Internet, just be aware some sites are devoted to stealing pay services rather than legitimate uses of Ku band.
The least expensive set-up would be to get a FTA receiver and connect it to an old single 18 inch pay service dish and lnb (found at many flea markets). This would get you WOUB from Ohio which Dishnetwork chooses not to encrypt for what ever reason so is perfectly legal to receive in this manner. I do find this signal to be rather over compressed.
Next up in expense would be to use the FTA receiver with at least a one meter dish and get KUSM from Montana. It has one of the best standard definition signals I have ever seen. On a smaller screen it could pass for HD except for the 4:3 ratio of course.
Finally a HD FTA receiver with a one meter dish will bring in the national feed of PBS-HD. The receiver will run about $400 compared to near $100 for the SD receiver and I have not personally tried one yet but again their is a lot of information out there.
Again best of luck with your local reception, but just in case I wanted to let you know of these alternatives.

Thanks for your kind words. First-hand experience with low-VHF is why I'm so adamantly opposed to use of low-VHF for digital. It frustrates me to go into threads like the Albany NY thread and hear people say "it'll be just fine, the station saves power, everybody wins!" I'll wait for them to say that next year.

I've actually already looked into FTA satellite reception and haven't come to a conclusion. I need to figure out which boxes have internal AC-3 decoders so I can do some price shopping for a box I could watch the PBS national feeds from, assuming they're not too pricey. I LOVE PBS World and would want that, but I hear the audio is in AC-3 only. That'd replicate 15-1 and 15-3 for me, all I'd be missing is 15-2. And I hear the news programs are live on PBS-X, which is in that feed, so I'd be pretty much set.

I also love MHz WorldView, which airs on the PBS station in Charlottesville where I go to college, and I hear that's on another satellite.

My only concern is how to distribute this through the house. My dad hates switching between the analog and digital settings on the TV, so I can't just use an analog RF modulator. I'd need some kind of 8VSB modulator. I've looked for such a beast and come up empty. (I was going to feed 15 analog into a digital channel for the time being)

The other alternative is that KAMU from Texas streams their video live on the internet, but our internet connection isn't reliable enough for that. In addition, it'd permanently chew up bandwidth, and that's limited enough as it is.

Thanks for the input on the satellite though. I do appreciate it. If you have any further advice, let me know. =)

I'm still thinking about everything, and I can't get my dad to make any kind of decision. I'm thinking about just buying the $30 VHF antenna myself and eating the cost if it doesn't work. It'd be good for e-skip at the very least I suppose...

- Trip

Hello again:

Just a brief update with regard to the amp situation. I tried hooking up the amps all different ways today, and my current setup, with two amps in the line, provided the best results (12.5 dB, currently, on WDRL-DT). Using one prior to splitting did about as well as the one each after splitting (5 dB), using both Radio Shack amps in a row without the 7777 killed the signal for some reason, and using the 7777 with the Radio Shack resulted in a signal below the current setup but above the previous setups (8-9 dB).

I used WDRL-DT for my testing, since it had a much larger and therefore more noticeable variation due to adding the amp.

- Trip

Hello again:

I bought my dad the Y5-2-6 as an early Father's Day present for my dad. It came two days ago and he put it up today.

Sad to say, it didn't fix all of our problems. We DID gain 3-4 dB over the Ghostkiller, but at 6PM signal was sitting at about 13 dB (I'd guess this is a normal 9.5 dB time with the old antenna). That's when the News Hour is on and I really kinda need the signal.

This morning, the atmosphere had us up to 15.5 dB, which would give me a severely pixelated and unwatchable signal. He took it down right after I left for work, and by the time I got to work it was up. I remoted in to my desktop at home and it had about 19.3 dB on it. I checked on it for the last time around noon and it had dropped to about 15 dB, but was still decoding on my FusionHDTV5.

I think the 2.3 kW they're currently transmitting in this direction is inadequate. I really do. I imagine if I got their full 7.25 kW with this antenna, I'd be able to receive the signal much more reliably than I do even now. I don't see how they're getting away with this.

Good news though, the antenna brings in WSET-13 only a bit weaker than before--enough so that I can see the weaker signal on my WinTV-D but not enough that it's noticeable on the other TVs--so I'm not worried about losing them when they return to channel 13 next year.

The next step up would be the VIP-306, I imagine, at almost 15 lbs and impossible for my dad to get up on the roof. Plus I can't imagine the mast holding that much. And it claims to have a gain of only 7 dB versus 5 dB.

Any thoughts on further improving the signal? It still spent much of the day completely useless. Again.

- Trip

I think the 2.3 kW they're currently transmitting in this direction is inadequate. I really do. I imagine if I got their full 7.25 kW with this antenna, I'd be able to receive the signal much more reliably than I do even now. I don't see how they're getting away with this.

Is VA in Zone I? Hopefully, WBRA can at least up their power if they can't be urged to return to 15. I imagine that a non-directional 10kW antenna on 3, could be enough to bridge the gap for your dad.

Hopefully the pressure on them will be intense enough to cause them to make some real changes. I would think even 50kW on 15 would be much better.

Is VA in Zone I? Hopefully, WBRA can at least up their power if they can't be urged to return to 15. I imagine that a non-directional 10kW antenna on 3, could be enough to bridge the gap for your dad.

Hopefully the pressure on them will be intense enough to cause them to make some real changes. I would think even 50kW on 15 would be much better.

If they could use their current antenna system, with the same amount of power (2.4 kW TPO) they're putting into their current VHF system, they could get 72 kW on channel 16 (15 is not available for use, but 16 is). No increase in power bill (unless UHF and VHF transmitters at the same power have different amounts of draw) other than the expense of a new transmitter.

On channel 3 they're limited to 9.5 kW or so due to their height, even being in Zone II as they are. I'd probably have much better luck if they were omnidirectional but I can't get their engineer to answer a phone call or e-mail to tell me what they're even thinking over there.

I was told the equipment that was installed is capable of 30 kW. I wish the FCC would let them use that much, they need it.

Right now it's decoding with the occasional breakup.

- Trip

...First-hand experience with low-VHF is why I'm so adamantly opposed to use of low-VHF for digital. Same here. I completely agree.

Even highband VHF has problems where there is lots of lightning and other impulse noise. Nothing worse than losing several seconds of audio at just the wrong time. But our PBS affiliates here in Arkansas don't care. They stubbornly fought, kicked, screamed and begged to get almost all of their PBS DTV stations onto VHF.

But our PBS affiliates here in Arkansas don't care. They stubbornly fought, kicked, screamed and begged to get almost all of their PBS DTV stations onto VHF.

I shouldn't take it for granted that the PBS stations here are all on UHF. KOCE, our lead PBS station is at 1000kW. The other 3 are all over 100kW and 3 of 4 are on Mt. Wilson. Of course, there was no room on VHF for them here.

I will be curious to see what happens to 2,4 & 5, locally, when KCBS, KNBC & KTLA turn off their analog channels. Perhaps the low power analog stations above 51 will be forced to move there? I'm not putting any money on LP stations surviving in the Low-VHF band when they are forced to digital.

No low band VHF in my area, but I had a lot of reception problems with high band VHF stations until I realized that the problem was interference from computers and other electronics. The solution was physical separation (as much as possible) between the antenna and anything electrical, BALUNs at both the antenna and tuner input (a few turns of coax + ferrites), and turning off computers and appliances until the offender was found (one of my PC's).

I also found that this is a problem with digital converter set top boxes. I had to move the "rabbit ears" away from my Zenith DTT900 and SONY Trinitron TV to be able view non-pixelated video from a strong local high band VHF station. (29.5 kW on channel 13 less than 10 miles from my location.)

I also found that this is a problem with digital converter set top boxes. I had to move the "rabbit ears" away from my Zenith DTT900 and SONY Trinitron TV to be able view non-pixelated video from a strong local VHF high band station. (30 kW on channel 13 less than 10 miles from my location.)

Which station is this? If you are having these kinds of problems with a 30kW station, this is not good news.

I think the CECB's should have instructions to move the antennas away from the TV's. With all the noise that comes out of the back of a CRT, it's no place to be.

I've had noise/int. problems on 7 and 9 locally from time-to-time. 9 had problems with FM and 7 seemed to be having problems with a dimmable light switch, though I have yet to verify this.

Today I got a low-VHF station for about 5 seconds.

KOTA-DT 2 Rapid City, SD. 1,370 miles away. Locked for about 3 seconds twice during the afternoon.

Unfortunately, that's not the low-VHF station I actually want. WBRA-DT is sitting here today at about 13.5 dB. While that's useless on the WinTV-D, it's about 57% on the DViCO, which is about 5 points below "good enough."

I've found that the new antenna definitely improved things. As low as 14.8 dB on the WinTV-D will deliver perfect reception on the DTT900 boxes downstairs, whereas the WinTV-D will not clear up until about 16.2 dB. Previously it had taken much more signal on the Zeniths to show a clear picture.

EDIT: If this was unclear, the WinTV-D is the definitive signal meter. All of the dB numbers I give are coming from the WinTV-D. As much as the tuner in it may be crap, its signal meter is superior to any other receiver I've found. If I could find a receiver with this signal meter and the new chip, I'd jump on it ASAP.

I've ruled out dealing with electrical interference. The system is isolated from computers entirely except for the connections to the two TV tuner cards, and I've tried turning both computers off--no help. I've watched the signal while the vacuum was being used, and it would bounce from 47% down to 0%, so I imagine if it was something electrical, I'd be seeing much more severe problems.

Either way, even if I was to narrow down an interference source in the house, does anyone really expect the regular person to go out and do that? I'm a nut and am willing to go digging around for things like that, most people will see that they get every other station and assume it's the station's fault (which it is, as far as I'm concerned).

I'm going to try to call the engineer again this week. Maybe I'll finally get to talk to him and not leave a voicemail he'll never answer.

- Trip

I've ruled out dealing with electrical interference. The system is isolated from computers entirely except for the connections to the two TV tuner cards, and I've tried turning both computers off--no help. I've watched the signal while the vacuum was being used, and it would bounce from 47% down to 0%, so I imagine if it was something electrical, I'd be seeing much more severe problems.- Trip

Have you disconnected the doorbell transformer? I have found these causing significant interference in the past. Ideally, you need to kill power to almost everything in the house except the receiver to rule out electrical interference.. and then, it could be coming from you neighbors..

Have you disconnected the doorbell transformer? I have found these causing significant interference in the past. Ideally, you need to kill power to almost everything in the house except the receiver to rule out electrical interference.. and then, it could be coming from you neighbors..

Nearest neighbors are 800 feet away, and have a hill between us and them. I doubt they're the problem.

I'll look into it. Dad tells me the doorbell transformer is in the basement or something and he really doesn't want to go under there to disconnect it.

I'm hoping to get an UPS for the attic to power the amps and the internet radio when the power goes out. Maybe next time the power goes out, I'll see if that makes WBRA-DT more receivable.

- Trip

Which station is this? If you are having these kinds of problems with a 30kW station, this is not good news.

WPEC DT 13, actually 29.5 kW.