When HBO alters a letterboxed movie such as "I Robot" or "Dreamgirls" to fullscreen the movie looks great! But when other stations such as TNT and TBS show a movie blown up from widescreen to full screen it looks terrible. May be a simple question for the technical experts on this forum, but thanks for the response. And if TNT can not make the full screen look ok, then why doesn't the station keep the original aspect ratio? I'd rather watch the normal aspect ratio SD station than their terrible blown up movies. Thanks.

When HBO alters a letterboxed movie such as "I Robot" or "Dreamgirls" to fullscreen the movie looks great! But when other stations such as TNT and TBS show a movie blown up from widescreen to full screen it looks terrible.

I don't at all accept your premise. Altered movies on other HD channels can look as "good" or better. Also, you are trying to generalize a situation that may be very difficult to generalize. There are so many factors. For example, you have to take into account how a movie was filmed. That can affect how it will look when taken from 2.35 to 1.85. Have you read any of the many threads that answer much of what you're asking?

I hesitate to even respond...but here goes.

When HBO changes the aspect ratio they are cropping the picture. This sucks. The picture does NOT look good....it just plain sucks.

What TNT/TBS are often doing is stretching the picture. This sucks even more than cropping. We get to watch balloon people.

Either way you are not getting the real deal.

A third option is open matte. Sometimes HBO will show an open matte presentation. I am not as offended by this as I am of the heresy of cropping/stretching.

A third option is open matte. Sometimes HBO will show an open matte presentation. I am not as offended by this as I am of the heresy of cropping/stretching.
This is typically what HBO does. This approach gives you all of the original image and more. It does look good, but I personally would rather see a film in OAR.

igreg: there is a couple things going on here.

The movies on HBO look good because they are HD transfer. They fill the screen because they're either in 1.85:1 aspect ratio, which is close to 16:9 HDTV, or they're 2.35:1 (widescreen) and HBO just chops off the sides so they'll fit your 16:9 screen. The picture may look good but you're missing a good chunk of the original movie.

TNT have HD transfers that may or may not be chopped, just like HBO. But they also have a lot of SD transfers that are chopped to fit the old 4:3 TVs, then stretched out to 16:9 for people with HTDV (which is why everybody looks fat). That is ugliness piled on ugliness.

igreg: there is a couple things going on here.

The movies on HBO look good because they are HD transfer. They fill the screen because they're either in 1.85:1 aspect ratio, which is close to 16:9 HDTV, or they're 2.35:1 (widescreen) and HBO just chops off the sides so they'll fit your 16:9 screen. The picture may look good but you're missing a good chunk of the original movie.This is typically not what HBO does. As noted above, HBO usually does open matte transfers, which includes more of the image from the film print than the theatrical release contains.

This is typically not what HBO does. As noted above, HBO usually does open matte transfers, which includes more of the image from the film print than the theatrical release contains.

Very interesting Ken. So you are actually seeing the entire film due to this process. Then why would you rather see the original OAR since under the process as you describe (if I interpreted it correctly) you get the entire screen filmed with no cropping. Thanks.

"I Robot" was perhaps one of the best visual qualitiy movies I have seen on HBO to date.

Because if the director felt that a 4:3 presentation would make for a better movie, he had the option to do so. OAR gives you the movie that the director intended.

Because if the director felt that a 4:3 presentation would make for a better movie, he had the option to do so. OAR gives you the movie that the director intended.


Would be interesting if DVD's would offer as an option the presenation of 2:35:1 movies as 1:85 with no loss of image ala HBO. I wonder how that would go over with consumers as a bonus feature? Blu-Ray disks should have the capacity for this feature.

I agree that OAR is the only proper way to show movies and that HBO’s distressing practice of showing even 2.35:1 movies at 16:9 (1.78:1) is a bad idea. The problem is that even in movies that have been shot open matte, the special effects often are not shot that way. So the problem isn’t just that HBO ignores the wishes of a 2:35:1 film’s director and cinematographer, sometimes that take part of the image away from us just to fill the screen.

I agree that OAR is the only proper way to show movies and that HBO’s distressing practice of showing even 2.35:1 movies at 16:9 (1.78:1) is a bad idea. The problem is that even in movies that have been shot open matte, the special effects often are not shot that way. So the problem isn’t just that HBO ignores the wishes of a 2:35:1 film’s director and cinematographer, sometimes that take part of the image away from us just to fill the screen.

I wonder if there is any reliable data to support the practice of filling the screen to accomodate complaints from the "black bar haters", or just a broadcaster's whim.

Very interesting Ken. So you are actually seeing the entire film due to this process. Then why would you rather see the original OAR since under the process as you describe (if I interpreted it correctly) you get the entire screen filmed with no cropping. Thanks.

"I Robot" was perhaps one of the best visual qualitiy movies I have seen on HBO to date.

Plus imdb.com lists "I, Robot" as filmed with Super 35. So you could be getting everything that was filmed: just opened up.

Is there some sort of external device that can "fix" the aspect ratio so that it comes out as the director intended, even if some of the broadcast picture is cut off? I don't know if it could figure out what is the correct aspect ratio on its own, or if I'd have to look it up on IMDB and then dial it in on this external device. I've heard of scalers - is this what I am describing?

Because if the director felt that a 4:3 presentation would make for a better movie, he had the option to do so. OAR gives you the movie that the director intended.

Small nit... since this is the HD forum, I think we're talking 16x9 and not 4:3.

Is there some sort of external device that can "fix" the aspect ratio so that it comes out as the director intended, even if some of the broadcast picture is cut off? I don't know if it could figure out what is the correct aspect ratio on its own, or if I'd have to look it up on IMDB and then dial it in on this external device. I've heard of scalers - is this what I am describing?

Yeah, it's called 'curtains'. ;)

I wonder if there is any reliable data to support the practice of filling the screen to accomodate complaints from the "black bar haters", or just a broadcaster's whim.
I don’t know what the answer to that is, either. I do seem to recall seeing a link in a post to another OAR thread not long ago, which said that HBO originally chose OAR for the 2.35:1 movies it showed in HD but somewhere along the line the network suits decided that its viewers wouldn’t like black bars. I know that Showtime still uses OAR but not what Starz does.

Just a small clarification, networks do not do their own feature transfers in house.

Small nit... since this is the HD forum, I think we're talking 16x9 and not 4:3.

Yep, meant 16:9 - although either way would apply.

Yeah, it's called 'curtains'. ;)


But seriously, is there any way straighten out the improper streching that they've done?

But seriously, is there any way straighten out the improper streching that they've done?

No. Besides, they don't 'stretch' anything. They either add back masked frame, or they crop and then pan & scan. At least if it's done correctly. If it's done incorrectly, then the sides are just cut off without any regard to what's being cut off.

At least if it's done correctly.

Then I don't think they do it correctly all the time, especially TBS. But there is definitively some streching/squishing going on in Showtime HD and HBO HD, as well as some other HD channels. Certain shows/movies - you can just tell. On Pan and Scan the aspect ratio would still be correct. Its not always real bad (but TBS usually is). Sometimes it is hard to see the streching/ squishing. Like since, a hdtv is 1.78, if the movie is 1.85, then if they show the movie full screen, I would find it hard to tell the difference.

So if there any sort of device that can fix this improper aspect ratio? I'm sure that if there is, I can't afford it. And I would have to know what they are broadcasting in, in order to fix it.

Then I don't think they do it correctly all the time, especially TBS. But there is definitively some streching/squishing going on in Showtime HD and HBO HD, as well as some other HD channels. Certain shows/movies - you can just tell. On Pan and Scan the aspect ratio would still be correct. Its not always real bad (but TBS usually is). Sometimes it is hard to see the streching/ squishing. Like since, a hdtv is 1.78, if the movie is 1.85, then if they show the movie full screen, I would find it hard to tell the difference.

So if there any sort of device that can fix this improper aspect ratio? I'm sure that if there is, I can't afford it. And I would have to know what they are broadcasting in, in order to fix it.


HBO HD is never squished or stretched on my TV. At least not if I have my TV's aspect ratio set correctly. Maybe you have your TV AR settings set to something other than 16x9.

Then I don't think they do it correctly all the time, especially TBS. But there is definitively some streching/squishing going on in Showtime HD and HBO HD, as well as some other HD channels. Certain shows/movies - you can just tell. On Pan and Scan the aspect ratio would still be correct. Its not always real bad (but TBS usually is). Sometimes it is hard to see the streching/ squishing. Like since, a hdtv is 1.78, if the movie is 1.85, then if they show the movie full screen, I would find it hard to tell the difference.

So if there any sort of device that can fix this improper aspect ratio? I'm sure that if there is, I can't afford it. And I would have to know what they are broadcasting in, in order to fix it.

I'm coming to the defense of TBSHD. They are doing a great job with shows like Raymond, the office, Earl and their original programming. I would say now about half their movies are full hd. They may not be OAR but it's better than stretch-o-vision.

Look at Black Sheep :

http://thumbnails7.imagebam.com/685/a365236842225.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/a365236842225/) http://thumbnails7.imagebam.com/685/4ce8206842258.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/4ce8206842258/)

OAR is 2.35:1 but TBS aired it 16:9 (1.78:1). Looks good to me. Don't get OAR/non-OAR confused with panscanned-chopjob / nice open-matte framing.

HBO HD is never squished or stretched on my TV. At least not if I have my TV's aspect ratio set correctly. Maybe you have your TV AR settings set to something other than 16x9.

I'm coming to the defense of TBSHD. They are doing a great job with shows like Raymond, the office, Earl and their original programming. I would say now about half their movies are full hd. They may not be OAR but it's better than stretch-o-vision. OAR is 2.35:1 but TBS aired it 16:9 (1.78:1). Looks good to me. Don't get OAR/non-OAR confused with panscanned-chopjob / nice open-matte framing.

I'll admit that I don't understand a lot of what you all are saying and I don't know what is open-matte framing. Don't get me wrong, I am not disputing a thing you all are saying, I just have a lot to learn.

Like if a 2.35 movie is shown in 1.78, how can it look correct (unless they pan and scan, or crop)?

Maybe instead of TBSHD, it is movies on TNTHD that I am having a problem with. I confuse TBS and TNT a lot since both came from Turner Broadcasting in Atlanta.

But you got to admit that there plenty of broadcast movies (including on HBO and Showtime) where the aspect ratio is off. People are too skinny and too long, Circles aren't perfect circles, all the sure signs that the aspect ratio is off.

I watch my HDTV format in FULL, on 100% scanning (HD Size 2).

I'll admit that I don't understand a lot of what you all are saying and I don't know what is open-matte framing. Don't get me wrong, I am not disputing a thing you all are saying, I just have a lot to learn.

Like if a 2.35 movie is shown in 1.78, how can it look correct (unless they pan and scan, or crop)?


Well, if the channel is not showing pan and scan stretched video, then you can't change the AR unless you want to warp the picture by changing the resolution. That'd be cool though, a channel sending a stretched picture like they do with anamophic DVDs and it's up to the tv to letterbox it or display it properly with a projector. That'll be the day! But the pendulum is swinging the other way. people are afraid of black bars


Maybe instead of TBSHD, it is movies on TNTHD that I am having a problem with. I confuse TBS and TNT a lot since both came from Turner Broadcasting in Atlanta.


I think TNT shows more HD movies in full 16:9 than TBS does but I have no way to back this up. It should be about even


But you got to admit that there plenty of broadcast movies (including on HBO and Showtime) where the aspect ratio is off. People are too skinny and too long, Circles aren't perfect circles, all the sure signs that the aspect ratio is off.

I watch my HDTV format in FULL, on 100% scanning (HD Size 2).


HD size 2 sounds like you have a panasonic and that is the correct setting to use. (1:1 pixel mapping)

I don't think people being too skinny or too long is because they are showing a movie in the wrong aspect ratio but rather how your cable/satellite box may be outputting the signal or your tv is displaying it incorrectly with a weird setting. Basically : A premium movie channel not showing a movie not in OAR should not result in a stretched picture. *edit : they may delete a few lines of pixels here and there but if you can notice that, you have eagle eyes.
I'm constantly recording hdtv so if you can tell me specifically what movies you are seeing stretched, I can grab frames for you and you can compare with your picture.

Which premium movie service is the best for showing OAR? Is there a clear favorite?

Showtime.

I'll admit that I don't understand a lot of what you all are saying and I don't know what is open-matte framing. Don't get me wrong, I am not disputing a thing you all are saying, I just have a lot to learn.

Like if a 2.35 movie is shown in 1.78, how can it look correct (unless they pan and scan, or crop)?

When they film a movie, they capture much more image than they ever intend to display in the final format. They determine the aspect ratio they desire, position that on the frame and eliminate anything outside the desired shape. With "open matte", they access that previously unused material from the original film stock and instead of cropping off the sides of a 2.35:1 rectangle, they add additional material to the top and/or the bottom.

But you got to admit that there plenty of broadcast movies (including on HBO and Showtime) where the aspect ratio is off. People are too skinny and too long, Circles aren't perfect circles, all the sure signs that the aspect ratio is off.

I watch my HDTV format in FULL, on 100% scanning (HD Size 2).

You should never see that on SHO or HBO's HD channels. That's a result of your system settings - and likely being tuned to the SD channel.

I'm constantly recording hdtv so if you can tell me specifically what movies you are seeing stretched, I can grab frames for you and you can compare with your picture.

Will do - thanks for the offer! Just yesterday I was watching Mad Love (1.85) on Showtime HD, and it was squished a bit to fill the screen. Their jeep on the road looked a tad bit like it had been flattened by a steamroller. Almost all the time I see HBO and Showtime HD showing full screen movies, no black boxes. I would rather see black boxes any day than have the picture squished or cut off.

BTW, my cable box always outputs in 1080i - it does not switch based on channel or content, but I can manually change it. Is this what you were asking?

I never heard of deleting a few line of pixels here and there. What do you call that? Is that just on the edges, or do they do it in the middle of the frame?

Yes, I have a Panasonic - TH-42PZ80U.

You should never see that on SHO or HBO's HD channels. That's a result of your system settings - and likely being tuned to the SD channel.
I only watch the HD channels - I don't even know if I have SD for those 2 channels. What system setting should I look at?

If you are set to "FULL", your STB or TV is stretching SD material horizontally so that 4:3 material will fill a 16:9 screen. Everyone should look fatter. I said "likely" tuned to the SD channels because the majority of STB's and TVs don't stretch the image if an HD resolution is present (it assumes the material is already 16:9).

As others have said, it sounds like your system settings are off. Make sure your cable box is set for 16x9 or widescreen. After that check you aspect ratio setting for your plasma. I have an LG, and it has close to a half of dozen different modes. 16x9, "Set by Program", Zoom 1, Zoom 2, and I think one other. Some of these modes can squish or stretch the picture, depending on the source material.

Another issue you can see with Open Matte - since the director knows the final product will (normally) be in his intended ratio, sometimes there is equipment or tricks in the shot that are hidden when viewed in the OAR.

Ex: in Pee Wee's Big Adventure, when Pee Wee removes his bike chain from its container, you can see the chain being fed through a hole in the bottom of the compartment when viewed in the Open Matte format. In the OAR, the bottom of the compartment is cut off and you can't see this "goof". In other movies you might be able to spot boom mikes at the top of the screen.

As others have said, it sounds like your system settings are off. Make sure your cable box is set for 16x9 or widescreen. After that check you aspect ratio setting for your plasma. I have an LG, and it has close to a half of dozen different modes. 16x9, "Set by Program", Zoom 1, Zoom 2, and I think one other. Some of these modes can squish or stretch the picture, depending on the source material.

Thanks for the response/advice! I'll try to check my cable box by finding an instruction manual and see what settings I can change (any suggestion as to what to look for?).

But I'm not saying that all movies and all HD content have the wrong aspect ratios all the time. Just some of the time, some of the content, and somewhat wrong ratio. On a HD channel, the program might be properly displayed, but the commercials are squished (this is the most common, because the commercials are probably 4x3 SD commercials, shown in 16x9). Even if the aspect ratios are wrong in a movie or such, on another channel everything might be just fine. And the squishing is usually minor, except for TBSHD or TNTHD where their movies are real off.

Kind of would be great if the Program Guide would tell what aspect methodology they are using. Something like: "This program was filmed at 2.35:1, but will be shown in 16x9 by Pan and Scan", or "This program was filmed at 1.86:1, but will be shown in 16x9 by compression". And put this info on the same screen where they show the MPAA rating and the warnings as to included content.

Will do - thanks for the offer! Just yesterday I was watching Mad Love (1.85) on Showtime HD, and it was squished a bit to fill the screen. Their jeep on the road looked a tad bit like it had been flattened by a steamroller. Almost all the time I see HBO and Showtime HD showing full screen movies, no black boxes. I would rather see black boxes any day than have the picture squished or cut off.



Showtime is not showing that movie anymore but the moviechannel is on june 4th. I'm sure it'll be the same but I'll cap that scene you are talking about. Who knows it may very well be that they are squishing it but I highly doubt it. From 1.85 to 1.77 is not a huge difference and they either are pan and scan and cropping the few pixels on the left and right side OR framing it open matte which would add MORE picture on the top and bottom to fill out your TV 16:9


I never heard of deleting a few line of pixels here and there. What do you call that? Is that just on the edges, or do they do it in the middle of the frame?


pan and scan which is essentially zooming in and chopping off the sides to "fill out" the tv. 1.85 left in the OAR for tv presentation would mean there would be a few lines of black on top and bottom. The general public will probably find that annoying.

If you are set to "FULL", your STB or TV is stretching SD material horizontally so that 4:3 material will fill a 16:9 screen. Everyone should look fatter. I said "likely" tuned to the SD channels because the majority of STB's and TVs don't stretch the image if an HD resolution is present (it assumes the material is already 16:9).
Yeah, whether you can change the aspect ratio on digital channels by stretching or zooming the picture varies from device to device. For example neither my 5 year old RCA Scenium HDTV nor my TiVo Series3 DVR allows me to vary aspect ratios on digital channels. Nevertheless, the SA 8300HD DVR, which I rent from Cox OKC, does allow me to do so, despite how pitiful it is in most other ways. Go figure.

My DVR has these User Settings:

TV Type: 16:9, 4:3 Letterbox, 4:3 Pan Scan. Mine, of course, is set to 16:9.
HDMI/YPbPr Output: 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i. Mine is set to 1080i.
4:3 Override (video output format for SD): 480i, 480p, Stretch, Off. Mine is set to 480p.

It also has this funny statement: "HDMI and IEEE-1394 offer higher quality HD video than component video." I'm connected via HDMI, but not because of this statement.

Tonight, I'm watching The Andromeda Strain on A&E HD. During breaks, when A&E shows commercials for its own shows, even though there are black bars, the images are still squished/squashed somewhat. The images aren't badly horrible, but nonetheless they don't have the correct aspect ratio.

Tonight, I'm watching The Andromeda Strain on A&E HD. During breaks, when A&E shows commercials for its own shows, even though there are black bars, the images are still squished/squashed somewhat. The images aren't badly horrible, but nonetheless they don't have the correct aspect ratio.
There are lots of aspect problems with commercials and promos. A 16:9 original may get delivered to the broadcaster as a letterboxed 4:3 recording and then stretched horizontally to 16:9 for playback. You end up with the worst of both worlds - letterboxing stretched video. This is going to be a problem until 4:3 sets become an insignificant share of the market.

I just started watching Andromeda and I think this is an A&E problem. They are stretching 4:3 material rather than upconverting it.

Will do - thanks for the offer! Just yesterday I was watching Mad Love (1.85) on Showtime HD, and it was squished a bit to fill the screen. Their jeep on the road looked a tad bit like it had been flattened by a steamroller. Almost all the time I see HBO and Showtime HD showing full screen movies, no black boxes. I would rather see black boxes any day than have the picture squished or cut off.

BTW, my cable box always outputs in 1080i - it does not switch based on channel or content, but I can manually change it. Is this what you were asking?

I never heard of deleting a few line of pixels here and there. What do you call that? Is that just on the edges, or do they do it in the middle of the frame?

Yes, I have a Panasonic - TH-42PZ80U.


I only watch the HD channels - I don't even know if I have SD for those 2 channels. What system setting should I look at?

well I think we owe you an apology. It does looked squished.

As shown on TV (16:9):

http://thumbnails4.imagebam.com/752/58c14c7512206.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/58c14c7512206/) http://thumbnails4.imagebam.com/752/d38db37512209.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/d38db37512209/) http://thumbnails3.imagebam.com/752/a477fa7512211.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/a477fa7512211/) http://thumbnails5.imagebam.com/752/3f9d937512213.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/3f9d937512213/) http://thumbnails4.imagebam.com/752/ca71ea7512217.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/ca71ea7512217/) http://thumbnails4.imagebam.com/752/75f8517512230.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/75f8517512230/)

Stretched 96% vertically which makes it 1.85 or OAR

http://thumbnails7.imagebam.com/752/2284fe7512208.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/2284fe7512208/) http://thumbnails7.imagebam.com/752/4f68737512210.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/4f68737512210/) http://thumbnails7.imagebam.com/752/a82ce47512212.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/a82ce47512212/) http://thumbnails4.imagebam.com/752/ba6c527512216.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/ba6c527512216/) http://thumbnails7.imagebam.com/752/d94ec97512219.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/d94ec97512219/) http://thumbnails4.imagebam.com/752/f333217512237.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/f333217512237/)

To me, especially the last screencap feels they are skewed a bit. XBR11 DOES have eagle eyes. Your assessment was dead on accurate. The jeep on the first pic looks squished as well

Spongyfungy, thanks for the vindication! Just curious - how did you stretch it 96% vertically? I don't think I have any such option on my tv. The jeep was what I saw that really clinched it for me. Why does Showtime HD do such squishing? You figure that discerning viewers have HD, so they would pay a lot of attention to the aspect ratio. So why change it to something bad?

Spongyfungy, thanks for the vindication! Just curious - how did you stretch it 96% vertically? I don't think I have any such option on my tv. The jeep was what I saw that really clinched it for me. Why does Showtime HD do such squishing? You figure that discerning viewers have HD, so they would pay a lot of attention to the aspect ratio. So why change it to something bad?

well 4% is not a lot and I really could not tell by watching it. I had to freeze it and then assess whether it was even skewed or not. Why they do it? Because most people cannot tell the difference. They are probably too lazy to cut off the sides

Almost all tv's will not allow you to change the aspect ratio incrementally like that. I just photoshopped the picture, skewing it to the correct ratio without cutting off the sides and it looks more normal when squished.