When said reasoning has been offered a thousand times and the facts are there to support it, the burden of proof swings to the poster suggesting an established product is going to have the nail in the coffin delivered to it soon.

I find it just a tad funny that the Toshiba rep goes out of his way to state this is not going to be a "blu-ray killer," but people in this thread still seem to think so. :)

Brandon

It may not completely kill Blu-Ray, as Sony has already invested far too much in it (including reputation), but I can certainly believe it will keep Blu-Ray on the sidelines maybe forever... much like SACD. I have 2 Blu-Ray players and just recently got an HD DVD player... I own almost 30 hi-def movies now and 80% of what I rent from Netflix is Blu-Ray. I have an 97" screen and a razor sharp Sony 1080p front pj yet my wife and sister claim they cannot see the difference in my Blu-Rays vs the SD DVDs played on the Oppo. Sometimes I think they're just jerking my chain but I got to be honest and admit the difference is not that huge when its compared with against an excellent transfer on SD DVD... and that's on a really big screen that most people will never possess. On our 32" upstairs I will admit I can't tell the difference between Blu-Ray and a good transfer SD DVD on the Oppo. So I can see how Blu-Ray will most likely continue to be relegated to a niche audience (me) forever.

considering IM2 was one of the first blu rays and didn't get a proper remaster, its a bad movie to test with. The PQ reviews were not great, should have tried a new movie. Remember blu rays are only gonna look good as their sources. On my 60inch SXRD, blu rays are far superior to the dvd counter parts.

+1

You don't judge Blu-ray by only one movie try another one.

$150 for a slight improvement over bargain upscalers, holy crap!! No thanks. I paid less for my POS HD DVD player and that was packaged with 10 movies.

At least the way Toshiba prices to move players, that means they should drop to $30 in about a year and including a few movies ;)

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/08/18/toshiba-stubbornly-launches-the-un-blu-ray-xd-e500-dvd-player/





LMFAO at the nail in the coffin for blu-ray comment :-0


Didn't this "Engadget" article to you, seem at all biased against Toshiba and pro blu-ray?

When said reasoning has been offered a thousand times and the facts are there to support it, the burden of proof swings to the poster suggesting an established product is going to have the nail in the coffin delivered to it soon.

I find it just a tad funny that the Toshiba rep goes out of his way to state this is not going to be a "blu-ray killer," but people in this thread still seem to think so. :)

Brandon

Unfortunately it is not DVD that needs a Blu Ray killer, but Blu Ray that needs a DVD killer!

DVD is still the king of optical media. Warner, Paramount and Universal have all released more HD content on Apple TV than on Blu Ray. So Blu Ray has a loooooong way to go before it is truly competitive with DVD.

Didn't this "Engadget" article to you, seem at all biased against Toshiba and pro blu-ray?

definitely!
it made me laugh, it was so biased.:D

Didn't this "Engadget" article to you, seem at all biased against Toshiba and pro blu-ray?

How has Engadget been in the past in regards to blu-ray and Toshiba?


I'm all for blu-ray and against the idea of paying $150 for a slight upgrade over other upscalers (Which is a massive downgrade from blu as well). So I'm sure I'm biased towards blu-ray as well as I heavily prefer it.

Having the technology update via firmware to blu-ray players is a good idea for older DVD's in my collection.

How has Engadget been in the past in regards to blu-ray and Toshiba?

I honestly cannot say because I do not read "Engadget", yet my comment was directed specifically towards this one particular article.

EDIT: click on the "super-duper" link in the article, would you say this is biased?

Unfortunately it is not DVD that needs a Blu Ray killer, but Blu Ray that needs a DVD killer!

DVD is still the king of optical media. Warner, Paramount and Universal have all released more HD content on Apple TV than on Blu Ray. So Blu Ray has a loooooong way to go before it is truly competitive with DVD.

why can't they both coexist?? Most people just don't need high def picture and sound. My parents own a hdtv and don't even receive HD signals. I like to use car analogies, SD being your run on the mill Camry and Blu ray being a Ferrari F430. To most, high performance is just not that important. To enthusiasts and true flim lovers the presentation the way directors intended is most important.

Brad Bird said about the Ratatouille Blu-ray that, "When you see it...you will see the movie we made."

I honestly cannot say because I do not read "Engadget", yet my comment was directed specifically towards this one particular article.

EDIT: click on the "super-duper" link in the article, would you say this is biased?

Definitely, can't blame them though based on the timing of it and the ridiculous claims made by Toshiba.

Definitely, can't blame them though based on the timing of it and the ridiculous claims made by Toshiba.

My only point is, if they are biased, can they be trusted in what they say?

My only point is, if they are biased, can they be trusted in what they say?

Your not gonna find a single publication or a website thats not biased in some sort of way.

Your not gonna find a single publication or a website thats not biased in some sort of way.

Exactly right.

Your not gonna find a single publication or a website thats not biased in some sort of way.

I'll have to trust my own eyes and ears.

I'll have to trust my own eyes and ears.

True... But there is really no technology to bring out details and colors that is not there... Well unless you have a million dollar rendering station. However since its fairly cheap, I'm picking this up ASAP. I can always return it if this machine is just hype, which I assume it will be.
As for people that say they can't tell much difference between dvd/blu... I call their BS. I can look at a picture and instantly know its HD because the colors just pop on HD that looks muddled even on my Oppo.

I've said this before, but I have about 800 DVDs, many of which will probably never make BR. If this new player makes them look their best, I am interested. I watched the Cop Land DVD last night, upconverted from my XA2. It looked better than several BR discs I have watched on my BD30. If the new Toshiba player takes this upconversion another notch or two higher...great....I will get one. I certainly enjoy my BR player, but until all these SD DVDs of mine are in HD, I will also be in the market for the best upconverting player.

I would be interested in user reviews from the Toshiba XD-E500 to see if it really gets to near HD quality or is really better than the current up-converting DVD players such as the Oppo.

I would be interested in user reviews from the Toshiba XD-E500 to see if it really gets to near HD quality or is really better than the current up-converting DVD players such as the Oppo.

Well the thing is people have claimed near HD for plenty of other upscaling players already, many of which I've used and I haven't agreed with. Similar to the people claiming the jump from VHS to DVD was bigger than DVD to Blu-ray, for me quite the opposite is true. The jump from DVD to Blu-ray is massive for me. Yeah there is still an improvement but really it was the convenience factor that was huge.

I'll have to trust my own eyes and ears.

+1

Not really raving about it here at CNet's article "Toshiba XD-E500"

http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/toshiba-xd-e500/4505-6463_7-33224998.html?tag=prod.txt.1

I've said this before, but I have about 800 DVDs, many of which will probably never make BR. If this new player makes them look their best, I am interested. I watched the Cop Land DVD last night, upconverted from my XA2. It looked better than several BR discs I have watched on my BD30. If the new Toshiba player takes this upconversion another notch or two higher...great....I will get one. I certainly enjoy my BR player, but until all these SD DVDs of mine are in HD, I will also be in the market for the best upconverting player.

Take a look at the original article and/or the amazon product page. Some of the claims are literally glorified versions of features that an LCD/Plasma TV does to an image already. The earlier claims and speculations about temporal algorithms appear to be unfounded. What we're seeing ultimately is more advanced (aggressive?) edge enhancement, noise reduction and pixel interpolation. Well, my LCD TV has a sharpness setting, special edge enhancement setting, DNR setting, color enhancement settings and contrast enhancement settings. I honestly wouldn't pay $150 for more of that.

I'll never own one of these as a stand alone upscaler holds no purpose for me, but I'd speculate that high end scalers are still going to be the best bet for truly making a person's DVD collection shine.

Brandon

I'll have to trust my own eyes and ears.I know thats right! :D

Steve

why can't they both coexist?? Most people just don't need high def picture and sound. My parents own a hdtv and don't even receive HD signals. I like to use car analogies, SD being your run on the mill Camry and Blu ray being a Ferrari F430. To most, high performance is just not that important. To enthusiasts and true flim lovers the presentation the way directors intended is most important.

Brad Bird said about the Ratatouille Blu-ray that, "When you see it...you will see the movie we made."

I think you made an important observation. Blu ray does not want to be the Ferrari F430. They want to be the Camry. However, as we all know the Camry does not need to be the fastest, biggest, most powerful or the most fuel efficient to be the best selling car. Just good enough in all respects to meet the needs of the avg. folk at a price that is acceptable.

I would rather have a world with Blu Ray and digital downloads - all HD for movie viewing. However, unless Blu Ray can add some sort of managed copy I'd hate to wipe out my DVDs stored on my hard drive - I only have around 250 movies, but having all of those on disks would be really inconvenient since I would need to make sure they are all ordered correctly etc. Now, I just dump my DVDs in a box and can pull up any title in a few seconds on my HTPC and play....IF Blu Ray could do that, I'd dump every single DVD in a heart beat.

FWIW, I only collect the movies I want to watch again and again. My Blu Ray collection is small, but I'd love to grow it.

But without managed copy in my opinion it is an incomplete format without a true mainstream future that will replace DVD.

Not really raving about it here at CNet's article "Toshiba XD-E500"

http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/toshiba-xd-e500/4505-6463_7-33224998.html?tag=prod.txt.1

I'm kind of skeptical but, how can CNET give a "CNET editors' take" on something they have never touched?

$150 for a slight improvement over bargain upscalers, holy crap!! No thanks. I paid less for my POS HD DVD player and that was packaged with 10 movies.

At least the way Toshiba prices to move players, that means they should drop to $30 in about a year and including a few movies ;)

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/08/18/toshiba-stubbornly-launches-the-un-blu-ray-xd-e500-dvd-player/





LMFAO at the nail in the coffin for blu-ray comment :-0

LMAO. What a bunch of hypocrites! IF Oppo had released an upconverting player that was slightly better than a traditional upconverting player they would have called it the best thing since sliced bread! But wait, it's Toshiba....:rolleyes:

Does it make more business sense to spend money trying to build a new player for Blu Ray, with the PS3 looming as the most highly subsidized hardware on the market and a market that is probably less than 2% overall the size of DVD, or to create a player that improves the experience for 98% of people who watch movies on disk. LOL ;)

I'm glad the author does not run a business for a living.

I'm kind of skeptical but, how can CNET give a "CNET editors' take" on something they have never touched?

Isn't that amazing. I guess the saying goes, the best PR is when you pay others to say what you want to say. Makes it sound more credible. Imagine if Sony had a rep say he saw the product and did not impress him. Now imaging a guy from cnet, who makes a declarative statement about a product he hasn't used himself! We're giving this info credit ONLY because it carries the cnet tag. Beyond that, everything about this analysis is worthless.

NOTE: The guy SAW a demonstration in a less than ideal environment (as he admitted). He NEVER 'touched' or used the player!!!! PLEASE READ THAT.

I'm kind of skeptical but, how can CNET give a "CNET editors' take" on something they have never touched?

Maybe you and av.pallino missed those parts in bold?

One of the technologies behind XDE is Sharp Mode, which is supposed to make edges sharp and get "one step closer to high definition." The problem with edge enhancement, as the CNET Glossary page notes, is that it actually obscures detail and increases noise with high-quality sources like DVD.

Now, Toshiba's implementation of edge enhancement is supposedly "smart"--meaning it only adds edge enhancement to certain parts of the image--but in our opinion generally the best kind of edge enhancement is no edge enhancement. In the demonstration we saw--which was far from an ideal home theater environment--the XDE image did look marginally sharper at first glance, but that's usually the case with edge enhancement--the flaws are revealed in a more controlled home theater setting. We're hoping to get a review sample sometime this week, so we'll be able to run it through its paces.


In addition to Sharp Mode, there are two other settings affecting image quality: Color Mode and Contrast Mode. Again, when we saw the demonstration, the conditions were less than ideal, but our early impression was that the two modes tended to blow out the image, similar to what an HDTV looks like in "vivid" mode. It's worth noting that both Color Mode and Contrast Mode cannot be activated at the same time, although either one can be used in conjunction with Sharp Mode.

.........................................
Yeah, I know the math doesn't add up. Blu-Ray is 6 times better blah blah blah. DVD movies look great to me and I think more people are starting to decide that just like I did. They go out and purchase a Blu-Ray player or a PS3 and buy a few movies only to find out that the experience is not all that different then what they already had with DVD's. If I had to sit 3 inches from the TV maybe then I could get the WOW factor, but for the average person who sits 7 - 10 feet away I think the current crop of TV's and Up-converting DVD's have narrowed the gap. I'm not purchasing another Blu-Ray disc so at least one person is not forwarding the Blu-Ray camp song.
I competely agree. I think viewing distance relative to image size is the single most important factor in whether someone will continue to buy BD disks after they buy the first one or two.

My wife and I have seen over 100 hd-dvds and bds - some of them several times - on our HTPC-driven RS-1 + 120" Dalite high-power screen, viewing from about 8 feet. As a result of that viewing, I think there are other important factors other than BD's theoretical-disk-potential that will affect its sales. All are the nitty-gritty details of how the movie was shot. Fast motion recorded by herky-jerky hand-held cameras, "artistic" unnatural colors, very dark movies, deliberate soft or non-uniform focus and the "popular" 2.35:1 format (which reduces the vertical height of the image on a 16x9 display), will not help the adoption of BD over sd dvds. When movie powers-that-be decide to incorporate some, or all, of those things, the difference between the sd and the hd are less apparent, IMO.

My experience with our three hundred, or so, sd dvds is that only a few of them fully exploit sd dvd's potential. When every step of sd dvd production is done right, they look pretty damned good. For example, depending on equipment, I'll bet sd Vertical Limit looks very good in typcal viewing conditions. If, by some software magic, sd player technology improves it further , one would be hard-pressed to justify buying the hd version.

Of course the above completely leaves aside the issue of the quality (the content, if you will) of modern-day movies - movies that are at least theoretically in a more favorable position to be issued as high-pq BDs than movies made in the relatively distant past.

Don't worry. The market will do all the deciding on BD (unless the PQ of newly-manufactured sd movies mysteriously starts dropping, that is).

Don't worry. The market will do all the deciding on BD (unless the PQ of newly-manufactured sd movies mysteriously starts dropping, that is).

Has anyone else seen the quality of Stargate Atlantis S4 on dvd? Exceptional. These are probably the best looking dvds I've ever seen.

Maybe you and av.pallino missed those parts in bold?

You missed the part where he said, "in less than ideal viewing conditions" and the reviewer makes definitive statements without even actually reviewing it!

it was a demo in front of a group of people in a Best Buy-like environment.

That is what I was referring to. Since when has cnet editors put out reviews based on public viewing of a product?

Seems really odd to me.

You missed the part where he said, "in less than ideal viewing conditions" and the reviewer makes definitive statements without even actually reviewing it!

it was a demo in front of a group of people in a Best Buy-like environment.

That is what I was referring to. Since when has cnet editors put out reviews based on public viewing of a product?

Seems really odd to me.

Actually I didn't miss that part ;) I was merely pointing out that they clearly did view a demo. Sure maybe they didn't physically touch the actual unit. Like OMG they aren't credible because they didn't physically touch it :eek:

"I'm kind of skeptical but, how can CNET give a "CNET editors' take" on something they have never touched?"


Originally Posted by av.pallino Isn't that amazing. I guess the saying goes, the best PR is when you pay others to say what you want to say. Makes it sound more credible. Imagine if Sony had a rep say he saw the product and did not impress him. Now imaging a guy from cnet, who makes a declarative statement about a product he hasn't used himself! We're giving this info credit ONLY because it carries the cnet tag. Beyond that, everything about this analysis is worthless.

edit: If Toshiba didn't put on a demo that didn't put there product in a good enough light that is Toshiba's fault not CNet's or anybody else who attended. If anything call their demo worthless and attack Toshiba for doing a crappy job pumping up their product and and falling miserably short to the hype they created.

well seems like all this thing does is intelligently add EE to appear to make it shaper. I'm sensitive to edge halos so this isn't a good player for me.

Actually I didn't miss that part ;) I was merely pointing out that they clearly did view a demo. Sure maybe they didn't physically touch the actual unit. Like OMG they aren't credible because they didn't physically touch it :eek:




edit: If Toshiba didn't put on a demo that didn't put there product in a good enough light that is Toshiba's fault not CNet's or anybody else who attended. If anything call their demo worthless and attack Toshiba for doing a crappy job pumping up their product and and falling miserably short to the hype they created.

No reviewer worth his salt would put out a staement about a product being good or bad based on a demo and using the product. How about a Blu ray demo based on a Best Buy demo!

These guys are essentially cashing in their past credibility.

http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/uan/2073

Excerpt from above link:

We've just had one of the first working demos of Toshiba's new QuadCore laptop range, two of which feature 'Blu-ray rivalling' upscalers to deliver High-def pics without having to fork out for the compatible next-gen Blu-ray discs. And amongst howls of derision from certain rude, aged members of the UK press, the demonstrations looked pretty damn great in our expert opinion. And anything that's going to save us the ignominy of having to replace our entire DVD collection with Blu-ray has to be worth giving a go.


This guy doesn't seem to agree with Engadget....granted this was the Toshiba laptop and not the XD-E500.

I think Toshiba is smart to release this player to get their improved upscaling technology (if it is an improvement) buzz in the air.

If there is general agreement among reviewers that it offers an improvement over previous technology, however marginal, then Toshiba is well positioned to add it to their eventual Blu-Ray line of players. Who would quibble over the feature and benefit value of a Blu-Ray player whose SD DVD upscaling is noticably better than anything else on the market?

In fact, if Toshiba is the first to market a 6-disc carousel Blu-Ray/HD combo player with their new and improved SD DVD upscaling technology included for under $250 then I'm in. I'll even drop the idea of buying into Blu-Ray via a PS3 in favor of one of those (add 1080i/1080p recordability for another couple hundred bucks and I'll buy two :D).

As far as the "garbage in, garbage out" argument goes regarding DVD upscaling, that would argue against ANY improvement with SD DVDs on ANY upscaling player, wouldn't it? Yet, we know we do get some improvement from upscaling players.

Futhermore, to assume there is nothing more to be squeezed out of upscaling technology is to assume the first generation upscalers found and tapped into everything there was to be squeezed out of it. And I can't think of any other technology that accomplished that in the first generation or so or any marketing team that would have allowed that to be accomplished in the first generation or so.

No reviewer worth his salt would put out a staement about a product being good or bad based on a demo and using the product. How about a Blu ray demo based on a Best Buy demo!

These guys are essentially cashing in their past credibility.

I don't agree with your complaint at all as they did qualify how they were viewing the material. You even quoted this as well for your earlier argument "In the demonstration we saw--which was far from an ideal home theater environment"

They also said We're hoping to get a review sample sometime this week, so we'll be able to run it through its paces.

Clearly they were giving their impressions of the demo and wanted to get more experience beyond the demo. They certainly were being upfront about it. I really don't see anything warranting the accussations you've made about them.

My experience with our three hundred, or so, sd dvds is that only a few of them fully exploit sd dvd's potential. When every step of sd dvd production is done right, they look pretty damned good.
Not to turn this into a "best DVD" thread, but whenever the full potential of DVD image quality is discussed, I think of VIP's European DVD of Jess Franco's Women in Cellblock 9. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0123847/)

It looks absolutely incredible for a DVD. Funny it's a trashy "women in chains" flick shot on nothing full of nudity and looks better than major studio classics.

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6089/vlcsnap249343bt9.jpg
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/873/vlcsnap250654hd7.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/2014/vlcsnap262592la6.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7186/vlcsnap262191do5.jpg

Nice PQ... sorry never heard of the film though.

Nice PQ... sorry never heard of the film though.

I read the first review at IMDB :eek: :D

I don't agree with your complaint at all as they did qualify how they were viewing the material. You even quoted this as well for your earlier argument

They also said

Clearly they were giving their impressions of the demo and wanted to get more experience beyond the demo. They certainly were being upfront about it. I really don't see anything warranting the accussations you've made about them.
First, instead of saying that Toshiba is offering a solution for DVD, the tone is one of derision because it isn't Blu Ray. As if improving DVD were unethical or something. I get the point near HD isn't HD, but near HD for thousands of titles v. HD for a couple of hundred titles has ameaningful value that cannot be dismissed off the cuff. If this shows promise I can go back to buying DVD again. I guess each to his own, but frankly I haven't seen the 'title wave' that has been predicted for Blu ray for ever now. I know we like to compare Blu Ray to DVD in the first couple of years etc etc. but 1997 is not the same as 2007. For now, with ALL studios all over the world releasing ALL their titles on DVD, it makes sense for TOshiba to do what they are doing.

I hate nothing more than the media trying to push a particular product and/or unfairly dismissing another. Even when it comes to products I own.

First, instead of saying that Toshiba is offering a solution for DVD, the tone is one of derision because it isn't Blu Ray. As if improving DVD were unethical or something.

Wow, you got all that from the article? Unethical and all? I reread the article again and I don't come even remotely close to either of those conclusions.. Seriously what specific quotes is giving you the "unethical" feeling :confused:

continued Originally Posted by av.pallino get the point near HD isn't HD, but near HD for thousands of titles v. HD for a couple of hundred titles has ameaningful value that cannot be dismissed off the cuff. If this shows promise I can go back to buying DVD again. I guess each to his own, but frankly I haven't seen the 'title wave' that has been predicted for Blu ray for ever now. I know we like to compare Blu Ray to DVD in the first couple of years etc etc. but 1997 is not the same as 2007. For now, with ALL studios all over the world releasing ALL their titles on DVD, it makes sense for TOshiba to do what they are doing.


I hate nothing more than the media trying to push a particular product and/or unfairly dismissing another. Even when it comes to products I own.

So you don't think it is fair of the article to mention this right off the back before stating their impressions?

CNET The idea behind XDE, which stands for extended detail enhancement, isn't that it will compete with Blu-ray, but rather that it will get a little extra performance out of your existing DVD collection and serve as a bridge to high definition--without you having to spend a bundle on new discs.

The article is hardly pushing blu-ray, only a few mentions (Toshiba conceding the format war mention at the beginning, slight improvement on 24p neither of which are pushing blu-ray in their context). If they wanted to push blu-ray in the article they easily could have indicate the vastly superior sound quality of blu-ray as well as other aspects of blu-ray that they don't even touch on at all. Even the last sentence they easily could have pushed blu-ray instead of stating instead of just mentioning the cost benefits of dropping $150 for something not true HD.

CNET Still, with $150 list price, we're betting Toshiba will have a hard time convincing buyers to pay significantly more for a technology that isn't true HD and--at least at our first glance--offers very little in the way of image quality improvements

BTW amazon has it in stock, 179 dollars!

I was going to buy, but not at $30 above MSRP. Toshiba's press release says $149.99 MSRP, seems unlike Amazon to be higher... weird…

Toshiba's interest in creating this player and its "XDE" improvement is purely a financial one. As long as DVD remains out there they will continue to collect royalties on the substantial piece they own of the DVD patent pie. I've looked at the breakdown in Amazon website and these improvements are hype. Anyone with a TV smaller than 47 inches would do them selves a favor and buy a much cheaper HDMI 1080P up converter. If you want versatile then go for the Oppo 980, 981, and for the guy with a big DVD collection and some cash the 983. Up-scalability has always been a feature that has never quite delivered from any joe six pack price point. Now, Toshiba has the gall to try squeeze those folks for 2 times as much for a slight improvement.. The only way that this would be a success is if the thousands of titles that independents and major studios release would optimize and give the public a quality DVD transfer everytime and that is not the case. There are some shining moments, but for the most part titles are put out as quickly and as cheaply as possible. No body was the wiser in the early years but now with screen sizes getting bigger and cheaper unfortunately DVD's blemishes and aging are showing...

Wow, you got all that from the article? Unethical and all? I reread the article again and I don't come even remotely close to either of those conclusions.. Seriously what specific quotes is giving you the "unethical" feeling :confused:



So you don't think it is fair of the article to mention this right off the back before stating their impressions?



The article is hardly pushing blu-ray, only a few mentions (Toshiba conceding the format war mention at the beginning, slight improvement on 24p neither of which are pushing blu-ray in their context). If they wanted to push blu-ray in the article they easily could have indicate the vastly superior sound quality of blu-ray as well as other aspects of blu-ray that they don't even touch on at all. Even the last sentence they easily could have pushed blu-ray instead of stating instead of just mentioning the cost benefits of dropping $150 for something not true HD.

Clearly, the author wanted to put out a review as soon as possible based on the demo he saw. So, I am to assume they don't recommend any DVD player that costs more than $150? The fact that a lot more content is being released on DVD makes no difference in the value proposition? Just that it isn't true HD.

The notion is that many people are already happy with DVD quality. What happens when we see technology that is being developed to close the gap further? Anyway I read that review, it seems to imply that getting additional mileage out of DVD is primarily a non factor. Overall, I thought the tone was biased. If you feel otherwise, then we agree to disagree.

Also, despite what Toahiba says, everyone believes DVD is competing with Blu Ray to be the mainstream format for movies. Unless the author also is assuming that Blu Ray is going to be a niche enthusiasts format. Perhaps I was wrong :)

Clearly we agree to disagree. I wouldn't even know how to agree with you on points when you aren't answering my simple questions that you quoted. Instead you seem to be switching gears again talking about DVD players that cost more than $150 that had nothing to do with the article.

FYI, it is pretty common to post a review after viewing a demo. ;)

circuit city has it for 149 on their website.

First, instead of saying that Toshiba is offering a solution for DVD, the tone is one of derision because it isn't Blu Ray.I read the CNET preview (http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/toshiba-xd-e500/4505-6463_7-33224998.html?tag=prod.txt.1) and what you call "derision" looks to me like his opinion of what he saw at the demonstration and skepticism about the marketing hype. Would you prefer it if he had parroted the Toshiba XD-E500 marketing hype to us instead of giving his opinion of how it looked?


Clearly, the author wanted to put out a review as soon as possible based on the demo he saw. So, I am to assume they don't recommend any DVD player that costs more than $150?
...What he said is that Toshiba would have a hard time convincing consumers to pay that much for a DVD player that based on what he saw at the demo didn't offer much of an improvement. I don't see how you can accuse the author of being biased/unfair when you don't know how the Toshiba XD-E500 compares to other DVD players.

Actually I think Toshiba is pretty smart in releasing this unit. Why not make some money from someone that isn't ready to make the BD jump? I just put out major dollars for 50" plasma and was hoping to pick up a BD player also. I need analog outs, player decoding, and decent upscaling and 2.0 compatibility. Can't find a a Panny BD-50 and if I could the upscaling isn't that great. Pioneer 51? Might as well buy one from area 51 what with all the teething problems.

So as stopgap maybe this isn't such a bad product. And if they perfect the upscaling and package it with a BD player in the $600 range they would have a kickass product. IMHO.

It looks absolutely incredible for a DVD.

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6089/vlcsnap249343bt9.jpg
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/873/vlcsnap250654hd7.jpg
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Just when I think I've completely wasted my time on this thread, I come across your post! Thanks! ;):D

So as stopgap maybe this isn't such a bad product. And if they perfect the upscaling and package it with a BD player in the $600 range they would have a kickass product. IMHO.

Exactly what Toshiba should, and probably will, end up doing.

Brandon

I thought reviewers get products first?

How is it no one has a full hands on review of a player that Amazon is already shipping?????

Does that make any since to anyone?????/

At the very least, someone should have bought one of these and had it shipped next day air, in which case, they will be getting it tomorrow.

So hopefully tomorrow evening we will have at least one real, full review.

Its amazing to see how so many people have already made up their minds about this player and about Toshiba's motives when no one here has even seen this thing yet and there are no actual hands-on reviews up... me thinks these people are still fighting the HD format wars in their heads and this is just more aftermath. Give it a rest why don't you and reserve all judgements until after enough people have had a chance to see what this thing can really do or not. Still though, the biases in this thread tell me it probably won't matter as minds are already made up (cognitive dissonance at work). Fortunately my purchasing choices are not tainted by such rants. I can't believe I've even wasted my time in this thread... I'll now wait for the owner's thread to start up as at least then I'll be able to learn something about this player's true capabilities and get opinions from people who have actually spent sometime with this player...

Its amazing to see how so many people have already made up their minds about this player and about Toshiba's motives when no one here has even seen this thing yet and there are no actual hands-on reviews up... me thinks these people are still fighting the HD format wars in their heads and this is just more aftermath. Give it a rest why don't you and reserve all judgements until after enough people have had a chance to see what this thing can really do or not. Still though, the biases in this thread tell me it probably won't matter as minds are already made up (cognitive dissonance at work). Fortunately my purchasing choices are not tainted by such rants. I can't believe I've even wasted my time in this thread... I'll now wait for the owner's thread to start up as at least then I'll be able to learn something about this player's true capabilities and get opinions from people who have actually spent sometime with this player...


But what fun would that be? Deal with facts? Opinions are so much better to make ones' buying decisions with.

Its amazing to see how so many people have already made up their minds about this player and about Toshiba's motives when no one here has even seen this thing yet and there are no actual hands-on reviews up... me thinks these people are still fighting the HD format wars in their heads and this is just more aftermath. Give it a rest why don't you and reserve all judgements until after enough people have had a chance to see what this thing can really do or not. Still though, the biases in this thread tell me it probably won't matter as minds are already made up (cognitive dissonance at work). Fortunately my purchasing choices are not tainted by such rants. I can't believe I've even wasted my time in this thread... I'll now wait for the owner's thread to start up as at least then I'll be able to learn something about this player's true capabilities and get opinions from people who have actually spent sometime with this player...

Your rant would probably be justified for owner's threads instead of speculation threads about upcoming technology. It's one thing to speculate about a product that you don't own in an owner's thread, and another to speculate about hyperbolic press regarding technology that's not on the market. And in fact most of the vaporware that was initially touted has been debunked by Toshiba's own reps, justifying much of the skepticism of the people you are criticizing as fighting format wars.

Funny how facts actually come into play, isn't it pwagner?

Brandon

Your rant would probably be justified for owner's threads instead of speculation threads about upcoming technology. It's one thing to speculate about a product that you don't own in an owner's thread, and another to speculate about hyperbolic press regarding technology that's not on the market. And in fact most of the vaporware that was initially touted has been debunked by Toshiba's own reps, justifying much of the skepticism of the people you are criticizing as fighting format wars.

Funny how facts actually come into play, isn't it pwagner?

Brandon
My understanding is that the just released up-converting player is NOT the Super Resolution player Toshiba was touting. If people were speculating on that one then okay but it appears the thread has moved away from the Super Resolution player and onto the just released up-conversion player the Toshiba XD-E500... so did I miss something? or are you still fighting the Hi-Def wars in your own head?

My understanding is that the just released up-converting player is NOT the Super Resolution player Toshiba was touting. If people were speculating on that one then okay but it appears the thread has moved away from the Super Resolution player and onto the just released up-conversion player of Toshiba's XD-E500 DVD player... so did I miss something?
If this is not the Super Resolution technology and is another upconverting technology, then I am confused. Won't multiple upconverting technologies just confuse the general public, eroding any potential for building brand recognition? Why not just stick with the superior Super Resolution technology?

I don't think it is confusing, because this is not the super resolution player. It is just a new intelligent way to upconvert. If you look at the features, it does not do multi-frame extraction for higher resolution in the current frame. So by Super Resolution definition, this player does not have this capability.

http://www.thedeemon.com/articles/what_is_super_resolution.html

Toshiba is really branding the XDE term. So if they do decide to include Super Resolution tech in the future, they can still brand it under the XDE term. XDE is really what they are pushing.

I don't think it is confusing, because this is not the super resolution player. It is just a new intelligent way to upconvert. If you look at the features, it does not do multi-frame extraction for higher resolution in the current frame. So by Super Resolution definition, this player does not have this capability.

http://www.thedeemon.com/articles/what_is_super_resolution.html

Toshiba is really branding the XDE term. So if they do decide to include Super Resolution tech in the future, they can still brand it under the XDE term. XDE is really what they are pushing.


If this is not the super resolution player then it is badly overprice (IMO).

If this is not the super resolution player then it is badly overprice (IMO).

It's the same price as the entry level Oppo. :confused:

It's the same price as the entry level Oppo. :confused:

Oppo has excellent hardware and support, expensive hardware is definitely worth it. Toshiba is known for buggy hardware and almost hardly any support. Pretty funny their SD dvd player cost much as their HDDVD player, but i'm sure they needed a gimick to make back what they lost during the format war.

Just curious see how Sony will win back what they lost in the format war. Obviously the licensing from major studios isn't a cash cow (for obvious reasons).

At least with DVD Toshiba is playing in the 98 percent market. The 2 percent or so Blu Ray player market has the PS3 bogeyman to content with in any case.

Also, you can't multipley the GHz by number of processors to get actual effectivenss. Even in the case of the PS3 I doubt all 7 processors are being maxed out or even being used!

We'll have to see how this plays out.

If this is not the Super Resolution technology and is another upconverting technology, then I am confused. Won't multiple upconverting technologies just confuse the general public, eroding any potential for building brand recognition? Why not just stick with the superior Super Resolution technology?
Not really. Anything that improves PQ for 99 percent of movies on disks is a good thing. I believe Blu ray probably has way less than 1 percent of the content that DVD has. So, for most common people it is a non factor. In number of HD titles I believe Apple TV isn't too far beind Blu Ray either.

DVD is still king.

I agree. Although on my 96" projection screen HD discs are clearly superior to SD, on my 54 rear projection HDTV the differences are minimal if the SD disc is a good transfer to begin with. I don't think any HD disc format will replace dvd until the disc carry no premium in price and the players work as quickly and reliably as regular dvd players. Most people don't want to spend $30 on a hd disc or $400 on a slow booting and unreliable player. To top it off, most people don't have a display where the benefits of hd discs can be clearly seen if at all (Nielson approximates only 13.7% of US households have at least one HD capable TV-the actual % of HD capable TV's as a % of all US TV's is much smaller).

Not really. Anything that improves PQ for 99 percent of movies on disks is a good thing. I believe Blu ray probably has way less than 1 percent of the content that DVD has. So, for most common people it is a non factor. In number of HD titles I believe Apple TV isn't too far beind Blu Ray either.

DVD is still king.
I agree that a good upscaling dvd player from Toshiba would be great, particularly if it equals or rivals the performance of the Oppos. That said, I just hope that Toshiba doesn't introduce multiple branded upscaling technologies when just one (i.e., Super Resolution) would suffice.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/19/eyes-on-toshibas-new-xd-e500-upconverting-dvd-player/


Even with their bias, they give it a somewhat adequate review.

Not really. Anything that improves PQ for 99 percent of movies on disks is a good thing. I believe Blu ray probably has way less than 1 percent of the content that DVD has. So, for most common people it is a non factor. In number of HD titles I believe Apple TV isn't too far beind Blu Ray either.

DVD is still king.


Correction. DVD is the king of yesterday's technology.

If you really think AppleTV is close to BD, then I really feel sorry for you.

Just curious see how Sony will win back what they lost in the format war. Obviously the licensing from major studios isn't a cash cow (for obvious reasons).

At least with DVD Toshiba is playing in the 98 percent market. The 2 percent or so Blu Ray player market has the PS3 bogeyman to content with in any case.

Also, you can't multipley the GHz by number of processors to get actual effectivenss. Even in the case of the PS3 I doubt all 7 processors are being maxed out or even being used!

We'll have to see how this plays out.

Unless you have access to all their financials and contract records you are just surmizing with no facts to back up your "feeling"

Unless you have access to all their financials and contract records you are just surmizing with no facts to back up your "feeling"

these companies make their financials public every quarter.

Anybody get one yet? I would like to see an impartial review. Although, if they bought it, they might have some partiality, right?

If these things are $99 on Black Friday I will probably get one. As for those badmouthing Toshiba DVD players - my experience with them, having owned the Nuon enhanced SD2300 and the DVD-A capable SD4900 were all positive. In fact I consider the SD2300 one of the best SD DVD players ever sold. It had by far the best zoom feature of any SD DVD player I have ever seen, and it's PQ was first rate. Unfortunately, we have seen the quality of all low-priced DVD players drop since they all (including Oppo) went to China for manufacturing. From what I have read of Oppo, their quality is in their video processing, not their construction or reliability, which is probably no better than Sony or Panasonic low end models. And considering what they ask for the 983 you are arguably better off buying a B-stock DVDO VP20 for just a bit more but with a whole lot more value.

I have to agree. My first 2 sd-dvd players were Toshiba (when they still cost $400+). I think they were the SD-1600 and SD-2200. Never had a problem with either of them. Then i moved to a very good progressive scan Panasonic-(no problems there). I'm still using that, but have also added an HD-DVD A2. The A2 has also been reliable (HD-DVD quarks not withstanding). The only DVD player I had issues with was a cheap upscaling Philips in the kids room.

bring back HD-DVD!

I wish.

I reopend this thread since the player does not have SRT (I didn't figure that out, somebody told me... :) ).

larry

I reopend this thread since the player does not have SRT (I didn't figure that out, somebody told me... :) ).

larry

Proof that Toshiba is still doing the most unimaginably stupid things...
if they are trying to brand XDE as 'high performance' so they can introduce an SRT/Spurs unit later under this name, they just utterly failed.

Not sure I see the correlation there...
I think Toshiba has lots of time to explore different technologies for making SD DVD up-conversion players in their bid to continue to exploited the huge DVD market. Currently with the vast majority of people owning DVDs and still adding to those collections and then with the 'digital deadline' forcing those same people to up-grade their televisions to something with a lotta pixels... under this scenario a moderately priced up-converting SD-DVD player exactly fits that bill. I think Toshiba has thought all this out rather well actually. The hi-def battles were fought-out in board rooms and smoky backrooms at high levels with the consumers playing no part except to pick sides and root for 'their chosen' team... (shame on Toshiba, shame on Sony, shame on the studios for removing the consumers from the equation... not only shameful but really stupid). DVD over VHS on the other hand, was decided by the consumers and it is consumers still that are going to decide the outcome of what has always been the REAL battle, that is 'hi-def vs DVD'... and what looked like the inevitable just a year ago (hi-def supplanting DVD) is not such a sure thing anymore. The unsettling economy has made consumers more price conscious than ever and with sooo many ways to spend the fewer discretionary dollars left, the juggernaut called DVD looks to still have plenty of momentum left... enough to roll on for a long, long time. Enough even to get other manufacturers started back up into the DVD upconversion technology race, in which case Toshiba will be ahead of the curve. As long as the majority of newer TVs sold are less than 50", the large majority of consumers will not be able to discriminate (or even care to) the advantages of hi-def. Just look at what happened to SACD vs the rise of iPods and the embracing of MP3. If my assumptions are correct and Blu-Ray is the video counterpart to SACD, then Toshiba is making a very well thought out strategic move totally unrelated to the hi-def wars of yesterday. And rolling out these up-converting players in an ever increasing level of performance is the smartest move yet... that way you get more people buying more product as each new technology/enhancement is released to ever increasing hoopla to the hoards of owners possessing their still ever growing libraries of DVDs.

I want Blu-Ray to "win" because I have two BD players, a growing collection of hi-def movies, and a really big screen (97") and a 1080P front PJ to show them off in all their hi-def glory... but alas after all the personal biases are swept aside it seems rather obvious it ain't gonna happen that way as it appears DVD will continue to reign for many more years to come. More power to Toshiba for having the forsight to see what is truly the inevitable... DVD will live on and on and on with the masses.

I think the best idea they had during the HD-DVD war was the combo discs. The problem was that not all HD-DVD's were combo discs. I think that would of been an easy upsell of HD-DVD. I also still think that if blu-Ray wants to really succeed and gain customers, they will come up with some type of combo disc for a slight premium over standard DVD's. Currently you pay $10-$30 for a Blu-Ray disc and you can't use it on your current laptop, kids room DVD player, car DVD player etc. They really haven't thought out the consumer end of the market. Who is going to spend $400 on a slow Bluy Ray player and a $20 premium for the discs to play on their secondary (normally smaller and "shockingingly" often non-hd) TV's where the benefits for HD discs are least/not visible?

DVD on the other hand, was decided by the consumers and it is consumers

Not really. Toshiba got the backers on its side for its dvd specs and Sony wasn't able to. You didn't decide anything until the finished product came out. There was no competition. Sony spent huge amounts to solidify its version for high def this time and Toshiba caved in. It really isn't about the consumers choice.

Proof that Toshiba is still doing the most unimaginably stupid things...
if they are trying to brand XDE as 'high performance' so they can introduce an SRT/Spurs unit later under this name, they just utterly failed.

Toshiba has never claimed they will introduce a SRT DVD player. All they have ever discussed with SRT is televisions. That little factoid came courtesy of the unlamented de@dmeat and was propagated across multiple forums by the usual suspects of the anti-Blu-ray crowd.

I think XDE is it as far as "new" upconversion technology from Toshiba in DVD players. Again, they have a roadmap that shows SRT televisions slated for the fall of next year (yeah, we'll see). But zip, nada, nilch, for SRT DVD players.

I agree. Although on my 96" projection screen HD discs are clearly superior to SD, on my 54 rear projection HDTV the differences are minimal if the SD disc is a good transfer to begin with. I don't think any HD disc format will replace dvd until the disc carry no premium in price and the players work as quickly and reliably as regular dvd players. Most people don't want to spend $30 on a hd disc or $400 on a slow booting and unreliable player. To top it off, most people don't have a display where the benefits of hd discs can be clearly seen if at all (Nielson approximates only 13.7% of US households have at least one HD capable TV-the actual % of HD capable TV's as a % of all US TV's is much smaller).

How about a $258 Magnavox that plays bluray and turns on pretty fast. By the holidays these things will be $199, I don't think the premium is that great at this point.

Not really. Toshiba got the backers on its side for its dvd specs and Sony wasn't able to. You didn't decide anything until the finished product came out. There was no competition. Sony spent huge amounts to solidify its version for high def this time and Toshiba caved in. It really isn't about the consumers choice.
To clear up the misunderstanding I've edited my posting to reveal I was referring to VHS vs DVD... in which the consumer did decide with their pocket books which was the preferred medium. The hi-def war was far more than simply determining pre-production specs... the actual medium itself was physically different PLUS the studios got involved by picking and chosing sides (and "kick-back schemes" if I'm to believe all I've read)... consumer dollars did NOT even get a chance to decide which MEDIUM/format was the preferred by consumers based upon equal offerings on both formats (mediums). DVD was chosen over VHS by the consumers, not the studios' preferences deciding the outcome. And finally, the determination of specs in pre-production phase of any medium rarely ever involve consumers for really, REALLY obvious reasons.

My experience with our three hundred, or so, sd dvds is that only a few of them fully exploit sd dvd's potential. When every step of sd dvd production is done right, they look pretty damned good. The market will do all the deciding on BD (unless the PQ of newly-manufactured sd movies mysteriously starts dropping, that is).


I'll second that! Most dvds are no where near the quality that is possible. What makes anyone think that the quality of blueray will be any different?

I'll second that! Most dvds are no where near the quality that is possible. What makes anyone think that the quality of blueray will be any different?

From my experiences with both, it is the same in that not every blu-ray takes full advantage of the format's potential just like DVD. The thing is it is all scaled relatively. A fantastic blu-ray transfers is huge improvement over a fantastic DVD, a poorly done blu-ray encode is still a big leap compared to a poorly done DVD.

In a nutshell, as software and hardware gets better you'll be able to get more information from less data.

Hence, you'll see improvements for both formats. Nasa and others are already doing ultra super upconversion. The stuff really works :)

Who knows what will be possible with the flexibility that Blu Ray provides - we're not even scratching the surface yet!

The CNet review: http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/toshiba-xd-e500/4505-6463_7-33224998.html

Brandon

Here is another review from Digital trends:

http://reviews.digitaltrends.com/review/5531/toshiba-xd-e500-review

They seemed to like it more than the Cnet review and stated that it compared favorably to a well know upconverting dvd player ( I am assuming an Oppo).

Quote:
"How did they compare (xde picture modes) with one of my favorite DVD player (from a leading upconverting DVD manufacturer)? Quite favorably! I was able to place key scenes side-by-side so that I could easily judge image quality, and I have to say the images portrayed on the XD-E500 were somewhat sharper, clearer, and did offer more contrast than this leading upconverting DVD player model. Is the Toshiba XD-E500 worth the price? Absolutely!"

The CNet review: http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/toshiba-xd-e500/4505-6463_7-33224998.html

Brandon


Spot on review what I observed. Oppo 980 is much better value with better pic and functionality.

"..."Sharp" mode looked like traditional edge enhancement, "Color" mode artificially exaggerated green and blues, .."

Sounds like what alot of average consumers will like since people seem to like that CSI: MIami look with all the oversaturated unnatural colors.

"..."Sharp" mode looked like traditional edge enhancement, "Color" mode artificially exaggerated green and blues, .."

Sounds like what alot of average consumers will like since people seem to like that CSI: MIami look with all the oversaturated unnatural colors.

Its exactly how they sell TVs......... the manufacturers just pump up the sharpness and colour and contrast in the default settings and people think it looks better. No one seems to want natural color and contrast and the softer look that the original film had in the theater. Is all about razor sharp and colors that 'pop' these days. The phoney digital look. Film has an elegant softness that is totally destroyed.

I'm surprised that this came out at such a low price - $139 online. I placed my order and am looking forward to seeing how the results compare to the generally positive reviews. I don't think the mass market is interested in Blue Ray at all and Toshiba branding XDE is going to help them capture the 'high end' dvd market which has a ceiling now at a buck fifty.

I'm surprised that this came out at such a low price - $139 online. I placed my order and am looking forward to seeing how the results compare to the generally positive reviews. I don't think the mass market is interested in Blue Ray at all and Toshiba branding XDE is going to help them capture the 'high end' dvd market which has a ceiling now at a buck fifty.
The public will be intrested in Blu when the players and media come down in price.

It shouldn't be to long when a 139.00 blu player is around. My guess Christmas will see big drops. If it doesn't blu will die.

I guess the question is - do you spend $350 or more for a BD player that provides great PQ on BD discs costing 3-4 times as much as the same movie on SD DVD but which player also provides poor PQ on the SD DVD discs that are affordable, or do you spend $150 or less for a SD DVD player that provides great PQ on the SD DVD movies you can afford but will not quite produce the full HD PQ your display is capable of, even if you can't afford the movies? My guess is the average consumer will tend to be swayed by the latter argument. I suspect Sony thinks so too, which is why they have their media lackies slamming the XE500 lest the public start to think they can make their own decision on media matters. That approach worked with the HD-DVD threat and no doubt they think it will work here as well.

I guess the question is - do you spend $350 or more for a BD player that provides great PQ on BD discs costing 3-4 times as much as the same movie on SD DVD but which player also provides poor PQ on the SD DVD discs that are affordable, or do you spend $150 or less for a SD DVD player that provides great PQ on the SD DVD movies you can afford but will not quite produce the full HD PQ your display is capable of, even if you can't afford the movies? My guess is the average consumer will tend to be swayed by the latter argument. I suspect Sony thinks so too, which is why they have their media lackies slamming the XE500 lest the public start to think they can make their own decision on media matters. That approach worked with the HD-DVD threat and no doubt they think it will work here as well.

I guess Sony used their "media lackies" for these stellar reviews too, huh?
http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/insignia-ns-brdvd/4505-6463_7-33189493.html?subj=re

http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/samsung-bd-p1500/4505-6463_7-32815244.html

They got 3 stars...just like the XDE did, from the same reviewers no less.

Get over it man.

I guess Sony used their "media lackies" for these stellar reviews too, huh?
http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/insignia-ns-brdvd/4505-6463_7-33189493.html?subj=re

http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/samsung-bd-p1500/4505-6463_7-32815244.html

They got 3 stars...just like the XDE did, from the same reviewers no less.

Get over it man.

Of course Toshiba should have paid them off as well just like they paid off Paramount to drop the format that is preferred by the vast majority. Smart move by Paramount as they are back with blu and probably got to keep a decent amount of the bribe.

Here is another review from Digital trends:

http://reviews.digitaltrends.com/review/5531/toshiba-xd-e500-review

They seemed to like it more than the Cnet review and stated that it compared favorably to a well know upconverting dvd player ( I am assuming an Oppo).

Quote:
"How did they compare (xde picture modes) with one of my favorite DVD player (from a leading upconverting DVD manufacturer)? Quite favorably! I was able to place key scenes side-by-side so that I could easily judge image quality, and I have to say the images portrayed on the XD-E500 were somewhat sharper, clearer, and did offer more contrast than this leading upconverting DVD player model. Is the Toshiba XD-E500 worth the price? Absolutely!"
Hmmm. They seem to sum it up this way though, somewhat contradictory to the rest of article:

XDE technology works, but is not necessary
Cons: XDE technology is a questionable enhancement

Spot on review what I observed. Oppo 980 is much better value with better pic and functionality.

They are the same group that preferred the performance of the new Panasonc plasmas to the Kuro Elites.

Last time I went with CNETS opinion I ended up with a DLINK N Router which they rated as the fastest. Brought it home and it was exactly the same as my existing Belkin router and a lot less stable and ran hotter. 2 days and I returned it.

If you agree with their overall ratings such as their top 5 home video products etc. then by all means take their advice seriously :)

The public will be intrested in Blu when the players and media come down in price.


AND..... they become unhappy with their existing equipment. A lot of people are very happy with their current SD setup and see no compelling need to change.

this player is absolutely junk IMHO. its a "decent" up-converter at best. they seem to be scared of even putting out there what chips are used. we did a side by side test on a 1080 pioneer with a 69.99 pioneer upconvert and i didn't really see any benefit of the toshiba over the cheaper pioneer player which is also a huge dissapointment to me as well. if you want a good cheap up-converting player then pick up a HD-DVD player, i use them for all my up-converting

this player is absolutely junk IMHO. its a "decent" up-converter at best. they seem to be scared of even putting out there what chips are used. we did a side by side test on a 1080 pioneer with a 69.99 pioneer upconvert and i didn't really see any benefit of the toshiba over the cheaper pioneer player which is also a huge dissapointment to me as well. if you want a good cheap up-converting player then pick up a HD-DVD player, i use them for all my up-converting

Well, if you are going to go by objective testing, then only the XE1/XA2 is anything worth writing home about. The other HD DVD players are mediocre at best. If you want to go by subjective feel alone (not that ther is anything wrong with that:)), well, that is another story and you will see plenty of ink spilled over the virtues and otherwise of the XDE on this very forum elsewhere.