Thought this was an interesting read, wonder how it will be compared to oppo dvd players? What do you think about this article?

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/features/science/20080530TDY01303.htm

Here is what the article says:
By the end of the year, Toshiba Corp. plans to release a DVD player capable of producing high-resolution images from regular DVDs, company sources said Thursday.

The planned release of a model compatible with the current DVD format signifies an effort by the major electronic manufacturer to recover from a humiliating setback suffered in March after announcing its decision to withdraw from its HD DVD business, the sources said.

Toshiba's withdrawal meant its defeat by a group of electronics makers, including Sony Corp., striving to promote the Blu-ray DVD format.

Standard DVD format is capable of playing a 350,000-pixel resolution. Blu-ray and other next-generation DVD formats have a resolution of about 2 million pixels, about six times greater than the current format.

Toshiba's new technology has been made possible by developing a large integrated circuit that can instantly convert images produced in the current format into high-resolution images.

This technology makes it possible to reproduce high-quality images comparable to Blu-ray video from current standard DVDs.

Toshiba President Atsutoshi Nishida said his company will not market DVD players that are compatible with Blu-ray.

Instead, Toshiba intends to compete with the Blu-ray camp by selling DVD players fitted with LSIs at lower prices than those of Blu-ray models.

To achieve this goal, Toshiba will advertise its new player as a device with which consumers can enjoy a broader array of content than is available in the Blu-ray format, the sources said.

Gimic... Crap goes in, crap comes out. No processor can create details in the picture that isn't there. Besides the Oppo 983 is possibly the best dvd player on the market and that cost much as a blu ray player.

Yeah you can only get so much with 480 but I still find it interesting and want to see what they do. I love every oppo ive owned but never had a 983 mabey later on? Im pretty happy with my 980.

i'm curious to see what they come up with.

Gimic... Crap goes in, crap comes out. No processor can create details in the picture that isn't there. Besides the Oppo 983 is possibly the best dvd player on the market and that cost much as a blu ray player.

I think Toshiba's high end HD-DVD players did a descent job in upconverting regular dvd. A lot of people have commented that it was the best SD DVD player they ever owned. It would not be a stretch for Toshiba to improve on that. Although SD DVD will not be HD-DVD, these players can get you closer.

people always say the current thing is the best we've ever seen. months later something better comes out and makes it possible for sd dvd's to look much better and then suddenly the same people say the same nonsense about this player. i remember people saying that about the first samsung upconverting dvd player and the zenith 318. current players now wipe the floor of those "best dvd player possible" claims back then.

my feeling stands that the company who ends up making a stellar product using sd dvd upconversion will be the "format" winner. yes, blu-ray is sweet, but the mass market will not start their dvd collecting again. the mass wants a player that will make their regular dvd's hd quality. the company who does this in an affordable box, will be the one selling boatloads. bly-ray is still no where near dvd was after a few years of its introduction.

Vaporware till it's sold. Just put the player out so we can see for ourselves. :)

larry

Its a scientific fact, you can't make some thing there that doesn't exist. You gonna tell me in a year later that Wii can produce graphics comparable to Xbox 360 due to this?? lets say that toshiba has super computer chip that can convert SD in to HD... It won't be cheap or no where near what blu ray costs.

Polishing a turd and pure marketing (Hi Def SD DVD). Apparently Toshiba still thinks they can win with some other invention nobody will adopt. Upconverting is a buzzward that is a huge step below HD..... I think Toshiba should make Blu Ray players and getting on with HD. DVD is a moribund medium. Blu Ray IS the future. Accept it Toshiba.

Polishing a turd and pure marketing (Hi Def SD DVD). Apparently Toshiba still thinks they can win with some other invention nobody will adopt. Upconverting is a buzzward that is a huge step below HD..... I think Toshiba should make Blu Ray players and getting on with HD. DVD is a moribund medium. Blu Ray IS the future. Accept it Toshiba.

exactly, faster general public accepts new technology the prices will fall due to mass production. Blu ray is already much cheaper than DVDs when they were released when inflation is considered. Anyways lets hope the new toshiba tech has a Edge enhancement eliminator because 90% of my 500+ dvds have very noticeable amount of it. Anyways I'm curious enough of the toshiba tech to try it out and returning to best buy if it sucks.

my feeling stands that the company who ends up making a stellar product using sd dvd upconversion will be the "format" winner. yes, blu-ray is sweet, but the mass market will not start their dvd collecting again. the mass wants a player that will make their regular dvd's hd quality. the company who does this in an affordable box, will be the one selling boatloads. bly-ray is still no where near dvd was after a few years of its introduction.

i think its the toshiba spursengine cell processor tosh is referring to-similar to the ones in a ps3-which toshiba makes or has something to do with.
i have almost 1k dvds so i cant wait to see what it does.

toshiba is just slowing down the rate of bluray adaption now. i have both, i prefered hd dvd, but now that its over i just want it to take off.

i just don't see how they could accomplish anything better that whats already been done in the video processing world. i mean, even my a30 up converts like a champ with the anchor bay chips but any enthusiast can tell the difference compared to true hd.

the real problem here is that way to many consumers are to quick to judge before the differences can be pointed out.

how do the cable providers do hd? i've seen movies from the late 60's and 70's look spectacular on hd. where are they getting the source material for all this older stuff?

how do the cable providers do hd? i've seen movies from the late 60's and 70's look spectacular on hd. where are they getting the source material for all this older stuff?

35mm film can hold almost twice the info a 1080p can show.

the mass wants a player that will make their regular dvd's hd quality. the company who does this in an affordable box, will be the one selling boatloads. bly-ray is still no where near dvd was after a few years of its introduction.


Impossible....SD in will never equal HD out in so many ways.

Impossible....SD in will never equal HD out in so many ways.

indeed. Once you've seen Blade runner in 20bit trueHD, anyone would be a believer in next generation. SD dvds were great but its time to move on to bigger and better things.

Impossible....SD in will never equal HD out in so many ways.

I'm not looking for it to equal HD, just make SD DVD look the best it can. I have many titles which will probably never be on BR. I have a BR player, but I also have 700 SD titles. When will "The Sons of Katie Elder" or "Chisum" or "Zulu" be on Blu-ray? If this new player can make them look really nice on a 106" screen, count me in.

I'm not looking for it to equal HD, just make SD DVD look the best it can. I have many titles which will probably never be on BR. I have a BR player, but I also have 700 SD titles. When will "The Sons of Katie Elder" or "Chisum" or "Zulu" be on Blu-ray? If this new player can make them look really nice on a 106" screen, count me in.


I was in exactly your same boat, as I own about 450 DVD titles, many of which will never be released in HD (and many of the older titles wouldn't benefit much anyway). I love HD-DVD (may it R.I.P.) as well as Blu-ray, but my HD players are terrible at processing SD-DVD's. Do yourself a favor and order an Oppo 983. It will bring out the absolute best from your SD collection. As an owner of two Toshiba HD-DVD players, I have no doubt that whatever player Toshiba releases it will never come close to the Oppo 983, not even in the same ballpark, most likely. The Oppo has almost perfect processing, and is probably one of the best deals in AV equipment, ever. I was very skeptical about spending $399 on a SD player: it seemed as though I was taking a step back. But after owning the 983, I look at it as the same as when I bought a high quality subwoofer: "I no longer have to worry about replacing that with something better anytime in the future; whatever new tech they come out with, a good sub is a good sub....". The Oppo 983 to me represents the pinnacle of DVD technology, and nothing "new" or "better" is going to come up around the corner, ever.

Well we can only see when it comes out. One thing I can say is the current new releases of sd DVDs look awful, which makes sense if the studios want Bluray to become mainstream. Toshiba should have focused on keeping HD DVD alive and added this feature to it players.

I'll get it if it really does upconvert to HD quality. Big if...

Vaporware till it's sold.

And how much will it sell for? The thing I find most interesting is that I read a few posts on the Engadget boards go something like this:

"I'll never buy blu-ray so if this thing is less than a few hundred dollars I'll pick one up." So for just less than a few hundred (under $300 is a reasonable interpretation of that, methinks), a person will buy a super-upconverting DVD player that can't play blu-ray discs and take advantage of the audio improvements of the format. But for around the same price they will not buy a blu-ray disc player that upconverts DVDs.

And I won't even touch on the actual marketing claims that Toshiba is making. Are we really gonna see a huge improvement over quality upconverting players for below $300? I have very high doubts about that.

Brandon

Polishing a turd and pure marketing (Hi Def SD DVD). Apparently Toshiba still thinks they can win with some other invention nobody will adopt.
The problem is the vast majority of people aren't us.

That IS the problem. I'll volunteer to be the HT Czar. Then all will bwe well!:)

i think its the toshiba spursengine cell processor tosh is referring to-similar to the ones in a ps3-which toshiba makes or has something to do with.Power consumption would be another important factor for me (in addition to the stuff mentioned here). If it uses much more than a standard DVD or BD player (10-35 watts), then I'd have to pass. Last time I checked the PS3 used in excess of 150 watts to play DVDs. If Tosh uses the cell processor, hopefully they can figure out some way to get that figure way down.

Well we can only see when it comes out. One thing I can say is the current new releases of sd DVDs look awful, which makes sense if the studios want Bluray to become mainstream. Toshiba should have focused on keeping HD DVD alive and added this feature to it players.


They were probably planning to add this feature to hd dvd. They had already planned the next generation HD DVD, but since they had to drop HD DVD their plans had to also change.

One thing I can say is the current new releases of sd DVDs look awful, ...

Do you have any basis for this, or is it just your personal opinion? I have not not noticed this myself, although I see studios releasing bare bones version in addition to the full feature version, priced higher of course. Once HD displays reach saturation volume, I suspect studios will price BRD at similar price point as the full feature SD DVDs.

[QUOTE=zarono;1398340f As an owner of two Toshiba HD-DVD players, I have no doubt that whatever player Toshiba releases it will never come close to the Oppo 983, not even in the same ballpark, most likely.

The Oppo 983 to me represents the pinnacle of DVD technology, and nothing "new" or "better" is going to come up around the corner, ever.[/QUOTE]

would u bet your life on those two statements?
i wouldnt.
we have no idea whats gonna come around the corner.
:)

Im assuming this is talking about the super resolution technology Toshiba has been hyping up. But unless Toshiba has come up with a much more advanced technique I dont think alot of people are gonna be paying a premium price over regular upconverting players.
http://www.topazlabs.com/topazmoment/screenshot.jpg
http://www.topazlabs.com/topazlabs/03products/topaz_enhance/gallery/05enhance_dvd_480p_to_hd_720p/index.html

Looks the same as any other type of upconversion in my opinion.

Apparently Toshiba still thinks they can win with some other invention nobody will adopt.Toshiba didn't invent it, they are among the first to implement algorithms that were developed at universities. If it works better than alternate upscaling solutions and is cost-effective, everybody that makes decoder chips for DVD and BD players will also likely implement it.

would u bet your life on those two statements?
i wouldnt.
we have no idea whats gonna come around the corner.
:)

I'm not betting anything, but I do own an Oppo 983 and know how well it performs. Whatever label Toshiba is trying to put on this new "technology" it is still simply upconverting 480i. No amount of processing, mathematical algorithms, deinterlacing, upscaling, or any other technological buzzword is going to convert a SD-DVD to Blu-ray performance, ever. It all comes down to data, and how much a disc can hold. DVD's 4.7GB storage/10.5 Mbit/sec, which seemed like a huge amount in 1995, simply is not enough compared to Blu-ray's 25GB capacity/36 Mbit/sec(+).

Toshiba claims they can get "high resolution" from DVD's: so what? A $69 upconverting DVD player does that now. It is still not HD. This is just Toshiba's way of deliberately misleading consumers.

we should get to find out in about 6 or 7 months if tosh keeps to their schedule.

I'm not betting anything, but I do own an Oppo 983 and know how well it performs. Whatever label Toshiba is trying to put on this new "technology" it is still simply upconverting 480i. No amount of processing, mathematical algorithms, deinterlacing, upscaling, or any other technological buzzword is going to convert a SD-DVD to Blu-ray performance, ever. It all comes down to data, and how much a disc can hold. DVD's 4.7GB storage/10.5 Mbit/sec, which seemed like a huge amount in 1995, simply is not enough compared to Blu-ray's 25GB capacity/36 Mbit/sec(+).

Toshiba claims they can get "high resolution" from DVD's: so what? A $69 upconverting DVD player does that now. It is still not HD. This is just Toshiba's way of deliberately misleading consumers.

I have a $3500 video processor/scaler. There is definitely a difference between upconversion boxes. The $69 upconverting DVD player doesn't come close to what my VP50 pro does. And upscaling improves every year with new algorithms. I've been upscaling SD to 1080i(2001 to 2006) or 1080P(2006-) since 2001 and it has continued to improve and is still improving.
If Toshiba has better algorithms and can do it cheaply it might actually sell well. Everyone is always looking for something better and cheaper.

I have a $3500 video processor/scaler. There is definitely a difference between upconversion boxes. The $69 upconverting DVD player doesn't come close to what my VP50 pro does. And upscaling improves every year with new algorithms. I've been upscaling SD to 1080i(2001 to 2006) or 1080P(2006-) since 2001 and it has continued to improve and is still improving.
If Toshiba has better algorithms and can do it cheaply it might actually sell well. Everyone is always looking for something better and cheaper.

You entirely missed my point. The $69 upconverting DVD player does exactly the same thing your VP50 does. Sure it may not do it as well, but they are both scaling to "High Resolution". And however well your VP50p does, it still does not make HD out of SD. My Oppo uses Anchor Bay for it's processing as well, and while it does an outstanding job, there is not a huge difference between it's performance and a $69 Pioneer 400. Toshiba could barely make a player that would play their own HD-DVD format. The XA-1 did a decent job with SD-DVD's, since it used Reon processing, but that was no thanks to Toshiba. Reon did the heavy lifting there. And now suddenly Toshiba has a magical algorithm that is going to scale better than Reon, ABT, or Faroudja? I hope they include a bottle of magical Snake Oil (guaranteed to cure anything that ails you!) with every one sold.

The $69 upconverting DVD player does exactly the same thing your VP50 does. Sure it may not do it as well.....

If the VP50 does upscaling better than that wouldn't be the "exact same thing" now, would it?

Thought this was an interesting read, wonder how it will be compared to oppo dvd players? What do you think about this article?

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/features/science/20080530TDY01303.htm

Here is what the article says:
By the end of the year, Toshiba Corp. plans to release a DVD player capable of producing high-resolution images from regular DVDs, company sources said Thursday.

The planned release of a model compatible with the current DVD format signifies an effort by the major electronic manufacturer to recover from a humiliating setback suffered in March after announcing its decision to withdraw from its HD DVD business, the sources said.

Toshiba's withdrawal meant its defeat by a group of electronics makers, including Sony Corp., striving to promote the Blu-ray DVD format.

Standard DVD format is capable of playing a 350,000-pixel resolution. Blu-ray and other next-generation DVD formats have a resolution of about 2 million pixels, about six times greater than the current format.

Toshiba's new technology has been made possible by developing a large integrated circuit that can instantly convert images produced in the current format into high-resolution images.

This technology makes it possible to reproduce high-quality images comparable to Blu-ray video from current standard DVDs.

Toshiba President Atsutoshi Nishida said his company will not market DVD players that are compatible with Blu-ray.

Instead, Toshiba intends to compete with the Blu-ray camp by selling DVD players fitted with LSIs at lower prices than those of Blu-ray models.

To achieve this goal, Toshiba will advertise its new player as a device with which consumers can enjoy a broader array of content than is available in the Blu-ray format, the sources said.

This is what I've been waiting on before buying the new Oppo. There was a thread about this "super upconversion" not long ago, but the blu-ray fans keep attacking it until they successfully got it closed so information has been scarce. Here's the link to that now closed thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1003071&highlight=super+upconversion

It's suppose to output a true 960P from a std dvd. If I recall, I believe I read somewhere a very few people got to see it at the last CES and were truly impressed with this technology. Hopefully this thread won't get closed for the same reason as the other, but provide some useful information.

If the VP50 does upscaling better than that wouldn't be the "exact same thing" now, would it?

Both take a 480i signal and scale it to 1080i, so yes, they do the same thing.

Both take a 480i signal and scale it to 1080i, so yes, they do the same thing.

umm, did u forget the word 'exactly'?

everyone keeps saying sd dvd is the same signal amplified (upscaled) so it could never equal hd. i remember salesmen telling me that when samsung came up with the first upconverting dvd player at 720p and they tried to sell me a $5000 480p dvd player when the sammy was like $500 and blew it out of the water. 4-5 years forward, and scalers like anchor bay, gennum etc. continue to improve sd upconversion to quality we never thought possible from "480i". like anything in life, give it some time and yes, i think toshiba can do it and will blow blu-ray out of the water. regardless that this has become a manufacturer pising match, tosh coming out ahead by using "inferior" technology will top the icing on the cake.

It's so hard to decide about sticking with dvd vs. blu-ray, i like many others have lots of dvds and if the toshi can even come close in my eyes to be like blu-ray i'll stick to my 5-10 dollar movies and get the toshiba. I love an outstanding picture just as much as the next guy but paying 25-30 dollars for a movie that ill be lucky to watch once a year compared to only investing 5-10 bucks for a dvd. I ask lots of people if they are going to buy blu-ray to see what they say and most don't want to pay the high prices. So all the fighting over dvd vs. blu to me is all over how much they charge at retail for movies. Alot of people just don't feel like bargin shopping on ebay or amazon to get good deals, they want to walk into a store and by a sub 200 dollar player and cheap movies it's just the way it is. I'll stick with my oppo for now, buy a few cheap blu's if I come across them, if the toshiba sucks then I already have some blu's to play.

It's suppose to output a true 960P from a std dvd. If I recall, I believe I read somewhere a very few people got to see it at the last CES and were truly impressed with this technology. Hopefully this thread won't get closed for the same reason as the other, but provide some useful information.
Does it convert that 960p to 1080i/p? - as otherwise I don't think most HDTVs will accept a 960p signal :confused:

Also, 960 just happens to be 480*2 (where 480 is the number of lines on an US SD-DVD). What will happen if you upscale a UK SD-DVD? 576*2=1152???? :cool:

Gimic... Crap goes in, crap comes out. No processor can create details in the picture that isn't there. Besides the Oppo 983 is possibly the best dvd player on the market and that cost much as a blu ray player.
They could if they tracked the objects/things in the scene. Imagine the letters in the text at the start of a Star Wars film that start out huge then go into the distance till they are about 1 pixel high - with this technology if they tracked them and knew what they looked like when they were closer to the camera they could be just as high res when they were in the distance as when they were nearer.

It would be the same with any other objects in the scene that they are able to track (though it probably won't be possible to track all objects properly - in much the same way that people say that motion interpolation doesn't always produce the correct results).

Though I hope interactivity works better on these players, as their HD-DVD players had worse interactivity than DVD players (though some Blu-ray discs also don't work with Resume Play, though their interactivity is generally better than HD-DVD I think).

Does it convert that 960p to 1080i/p? - as otherwise I don't think most HDTVs will accept a 960p signal :confused:

Also, 960 just happens to be 480*2 (where 480 is the number of lines on an US SD-DVD). What will happen if you upscale a UK SD-DVD? 576*2=1152???? :cool:

The PS3 already does 960p upconversion. It's called "double scale". The problem is as you point out, displays don't accept 960p so what it does is fit the 960p in a 1080i/p space which leaves black bars around all four sides of the image. And with a PAL 576 DVD it does what you say by fitting 1152p in a 1080i/p space which actually crops part of the image from all four sides and looks worse than normal 1080i/p upconversion. So in summary 960p = black bars on all four sides for a 480 NTSC DVD or a cropped image on all four sides for a 576 PAL DVD. YUCK! Who wants that. I think i'd rather stick to generic upconversion.

Toshiba needs to get on with Blu-ray and give up on this rubbish.

The PS3 already does 960p upconversion. It's called "double scale". The problem is as you point out, displays don't accept 960p so what it does is fit the 960p in a 1080i/p space which leaves black bars around all four sides of the image. And with a PAL 576 DVD it does what you say by fitting 1152p in a 1080i/p space which actually crops part of the image from all four sides and looks worse than normal 1080i/p upconversion. So in summary 960p = black bars on all four sides for a 480 NTSC DVD or a cropped image on all four sides for a 576 PAL DVD. YUCK! Who wants that. I think i'd rather stick to generic upconversion.

Toshiba needs to get on with Blu-ray and give up on this rubbish.
If that's really what Toshiba is going to do (give all DVDs black bars on all 4 sides, like we currently get with upconverted non-anamorphic w/s dvds on high def players) or crop a 1152 image instead of scaling it to 1080i/p like they should be doing then they can probably count me out - I'd rather have one that can scale it to 1080 lines instead.

I also would like these scaling functions to be put into a Blu-ray player (and one that is region free for SD discs - and also Blu-ray discs too).

If the VP50 does upscaling better than that wouldn't be the "exact same thing" now, would it?

We're quibbling over semantics at this point. They both do the same thing in terms of the function they're performing, one does it better than the other.

Brandon

"Toshiba needs to get on with Blu-ray and give up on this rubbish."

When all 700 of my SD DVDs are on Blu-ray, I might agree with this. Why is it "rubbish" to take SD DVD upconversion to a new level? I have an XA2 HD DVD player. I have a BD-30 Blu-ray player. Yet about 95% or more of the DVDs I own aren't on Blu-ray. Do you think the Matt Helm Lounge set will be on Blu-ray soon? Naked Jungle? Tony Rome? I don't think so. In the meantime, I would like to see these DVDs upconverted to the highest quality possible. Let's wait and see how this new player might perform before we call it "rubbish."

It really depends on how they market it, like most people i'm interested in an even better upscaler to handle my current collection (even better if its stuck in a blu ray player)

but if toshiba market it in an attempt to derail hd uptake take then toshiba wont be getting any money from me in the future

Who not just buy a good bluray player and use it for BD and upscaled DVDs. One machine less in a living room. You get best of both worlds and better audio tracks.

(I have PS3 so dvd-upconversion is on parity to most external high-quality upconverters)

Who not just buy a good bluray player and use it for BD and upscaled DVDs. One machine less in a living room. You get best of both worlds and better audio tracks.

(I have PS3 so dvd-upconversion is on parity to most external high-quality upconverters)
Blu-ray players can't usually play DVDs that are a different region to your region, DVD players sold in Europe often can.

Also, this Toshiba may be better at up-converting than existing Blu-ray players - though that remains to be seen - and the black bar/cropping issue remains to be seen too. As does any other functions of the player (or lack of - in comparison to DVD/Blu-ray players). But I agree that it would be better if all these good up-converting and other functions were put into a Blu-ray player.

umm, did u forget the word 'exactly'?


Sigh. Ok, if you want to argue semantics and completely ignore the logic behind my argument, fine. No, these two systems are not exactly alike. It would be nice to have the flexibility that the Anchor Bay VP-50p processor has to upconvert any source, such as my Motorola 3416 STB on SD signals to 1080i; my Oppo 983 cannot do that and neither can the $67 Pioneer 400. However, on SD-DVD content, both do exactly the same thing in upconverting a 480i signal to 1080. I have no doubt that the VP-50p is an outstanding scaler that performs flawlessly, however this has absolutely nothing to do with Toshiba's new foray into the upconverting market. And even if (and that's a big IF), Toshiba can perform at a level comparable to the VP-50p, it will still not perform at the level of Blu-ray. There's your exactly.

It really depends on how they market it, like most people i'm interested in an even better upscaler to handle my current collection (even better if its stuck in a blu ray player)

but if toshiba market it in an attempt to derail hd uptake take then toshiba wont be getting any money from me in the future

Before I purchased my Oppo 983, I was asking myself the same exact question. Unfortunately, there are no decent BR players currently on the market that can perform a quality upscale of 480i. The only HD players that could were the discontinued HD-DVD XA-2 and the Samsung BR 1200 series, that were both blessed with Reon processing. The current generation of BR players are horrible at SD playback. I cringe at the thought of putting an SD-DVD into the mouth of my Sony BDP-S300, as it's SD-DVD performance is so horrible. It gives me nightmares at the thought of it.......The Oppo 983 is quite simply the best solution to the SD-DVD library, as it performs flawlessly and will bring the best out of your SD-DVD content.

"Toshiba needs to get on with Blu-ray and give up on this rubbish."

When all 700 of my SD DVDs are on Blu-ray, I might agree with this. Why is it "rubbish" to take SD DVD upconversion to a new level? I have an XA2 HD DVD player. I have a BD-30 Blu-ray player. Yet about 95% or more of the DVDs I own aren't on Blu-ray. Do you think the Matt Helm Lounge set will be on Blu-ray soon? Naked Jungle? Tony Rome? I don't think so. In the meantime, I would like to see these DVDs upconverted to the highest quality possible. Let's wait and see how this new player might perform before we call it "rubbish."

Did you read my post? Rubbish based on what's previously been marketed as 960p super-upconversion which the PS3 does with it's double scale feature, leaving black bars around all four sides of the image. It may look better because it's not blown up as big but I want my DVDs to fill the screen!

Anyway, with Toshibas comment about not marketing a player that's compatible with Blu-ray, it just sounds like something designed to get in the way of Blu-ray adoption when they should be putting this technology into a Blu-ray player!!! "Real" HD is the future. There's only so much you can do with 480/576 lines of resolution and a lame bitrate and no kind of upconversion is a substitute for "real" HD.

I love bluray, I love SD-DVD, but I also would love a storage device in the future that can carry my 68 blurays.

Do you have any basis for this, or is it just your personal opinion? I have not not noticed this myself, although I see studios releasing bare bones version in addition to the full feature version, priced higher of course. Once HD displays reach saturation volume, I suspect studios will price BRD at similar price point as the full feature SD DVDs.


Subjectivity speaking, we can all tell the different between a quality presentation and a subpar presentation.

Hopefully they start releasing more information. 6 month time to market and they aren't really advertising it, showing it off at conventions or doing anything to prepare for a product line launch (maybe they should start bundling it with the Regza). On the other hand, at least up here in Canada, Toshiba is advertising a lot more about their LCDs, laptops, etc. I see it on commuter trains and on television now. Not sure why this wasn't done when they had everything to lose at the beginning of the year.

Did you read my post? Rubbish based on what's previously been marketed as 960p super-upconversion which the PS3 does with it's double scale feature, leaving black bars around all four sides of the image. It may look better because it's not blown up as big but I want my DVDs to fill the screen!

Anyway, with Toshibas comment about not marketing a player that's compatible with Blu-ray, it just sounds like something designed to get in the way of Blu-ray adoption when they should be putting this technology into a Blu-ray player!!! "Real" HD is the future. There's only so much you can do with 480/576 lines of resolution and a lame bitrate and no kind of upconversion is a substitute for "real" HD.

Why wouldn't it fill your screen? Your tv is going to scale it to it's native resolution just as it does for a SD DVD player. Also, 960p when doubled fits nicely into 1920. Even Hi Def movies with black bars don't use all of an HD TV's resolution. Does that upset you? If done properly, the advanced upconversion should still show whatever benefits it has even after the TV does it's own scaling. That being said, I am not eager to go out and purchase one of these players.

Why wouldn't it fill your screen? Your tv is going to scale it to it's native resolution just as it does for a SD DVD player.
Which Blu-ray or HD-DVD players, which upconvert SD-DVD can upconvert a 16:9 non-anamorphic SD-DVD so that it fills a 16:9 HDTV's screen without black bars on all 4 sides of the screen? (actually this is a different issue than that which he was talking about with the PS3 - but he said the Toshiba player will upconvert to 960p too and have the same issues with scaling SD that he said the PS3 has).

Also, 960p when doubled fits nicely into 1920.
I thought 960p was referring to the number of lines (the height of the image in pixels) - 1920 is the number of pixels across so I don't think it's the same thing.

I love bluray, I love SD-DVD, but I also would love a storage device in the future that can carry my 68 blurays.

i've sell you somthing called a HD-BAG

(may be a bit pricey though)

;)

which upconvert SD-DVD can upconvert a 16:9 non-anamorphic SD-DVD so that it fills a 16:9 HDTV's screen without black bars on all 4 sides of the screen?

You mean 4:3 letterboxed titles? The Oppo 983 can do this. Obviously, 'scope titles must still have black bars above and below.

-Bill

Which Blu-ray or HD-DVD players, which upconvert SD-DVD can upconvert a 16:9 non-anamorphic SD-DVD so that it fills a 16:9 HDTV's screen without black bars on all 4 sides of the screen? (actually this is a different issue than that which he was talking about with the PS3 - but he said the Toshiba player will upconvert to 960p too and have the same issues with scaling SD that he said the PS3 has).


I thought 960p was referring to the number of lines (the height of the image in pixels) - 1920 is the number of pixels across so I don't think it's the same thing.

I think you are absolutely right about the last part, the height is the number of pixels 960p would be doing. About the first part, I'm not sure. Aren't most DVD's anamorphic now? If they are, scaling wouldn't be a problem. Unless that poster watches a lot of letterbox movies, I've never heard of the PS3 doing that with images. I could be wrong, however. I don't own a PS3, so I'm not sure.

When all 700 of my SD DVDs are on Blu-ray, I might agree with this. Why is it "rubbish" to take SD DVD upconversion to a new level? I have an XA2 HD DVD player. I have a BD-30 Blu-ray player. Yet about 95% or more of the DVDs I own aren't on Blu-ray. Do you think the Matt Helm Lounge set will be on Blu-ray soon? Naked Jungle? Tony Rome? I don't think so. In the meantime, I would like to see these DVDs upconverted to the highest quality possible. Let's wait and see how this new player might perform before we call it "rubbish."

Will Toshiba license this technology to BDA manufacturers..if it's even worth it? It's not like you cant already play your 700 DVDs in a blu-ray player. So if Toshiba is simply trying to improve SD upconversion as opposed to trying to stifle BD adoption and trying confuse consumers it'll be pretty evident. Judging from the way they're already wording this, I'm going to guess it's the latter.

Brandon

The one question no one has answered is that considering most DVDs are poorly masterered to some degree with edge enhancement, DNR, MPEG-2 compression artifacting, and other noise/artifacts, how is that going to be removed from the source with this new super-duper upscaling?

In addition, deinterlacing is FAR more important than upscaling. 480i must be deinterlaced to 480p before it can be scaled. I highly doubt Toshiba can touch deinterlacing solutions such as Reon, Realta, ABT, etc.

This is all just another Toshiba scam and desperation tactic IMO. This company has really sunk to new lows with its so-called "pride." The other Japanese electronic companies must be laughing their asses off at Toshiba.

I think their going to have a tough time selling it. There's a lot of anti Toshiba sentiment on this board and these are the poeple who would be the target market.

I think their going to have a tough time selling it. There's a lot of anti Toshiba sentiment on this board and these are the poeple who would be the target market.

I would hope the Film Buffs outnumber the Fan Boys, but the latter probably punch above their weight.

Sounds like a scene from The Warriors, doesn't it?

-Bill

everyone keeps saying sd dvd is the same signal amplified (upscaled) so it could never equal hd. i remember salesmen telling me that when samsung came up with the first upconverting dvd player at 720p and they tried to sell me a $5000 480p dvd player when the sammy was like $500 and blew it out of the water. 4-5 years forward, and scalers like anchor bay, gennum etc. continue to improve sd upconversion to quality we never thought possible from "480i". like anything in life, give it some time and yes, i think toshiba can do it and will blow blu-ray out of the water. regardless that this has become a manufacturer pising match, tosh coming out ahead by using "inferior" technology will top the icing on the cake.

if the new tosh players do what tosh says they will do, i think all it would really do is further slow the already slow adaption of bd by john q public/j6p/the masses. which would not be a good thing for the overall health of the bda and especially future bd releases.

well i guess the 'format war' begins anew.
or perhaps-'format war': 'act II'.

This sums up things quite nicely:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/30/toshiba-knows-no-shame-plans-to-release-super-resolution-dvd-pl/

There must be something to it, otherwise why would Toshiba waste their time? And since the vast majority of consumers are happy with their DVDs, it might have a chnace to sell if it actually works and is inexpenisve. Although I don't think the people on this forum are the target audience of something like this. I personally have no desire to watch a DVD. ONly on a rare occasion like when Stargate: Ark of truth came out. Initially it was only available on DVD so I purcahsed it and watched it. Later it was available in HD from Xbox Live. And I watched it again form there.

I don't mean to sound culturally insensitive, but the CEO of Toshiba should really man up and kill himself.
I mean they lost but if they rebadge DVD scaling players as a new format then Toshiba will be worse than bose.
Mr. Yoshida needs to get flying with that old devine wind.

I don't mean to sound culturally insensitive, but the CEO of Toshiba should really man up and kill himself.
I mean they lost but if they rebadge DVD scaling players as a new format then Toshiba will be worse than bose.
Mr. Yoshida needs to get flying with that old devine wind.

:rolleyes:

Why wouldn't it fill your screen? Your tv is going to scale it to it's native resolution just as it does for a SD DVD player. Also, 960p when doubled fits nicely into 1920. Even Hi Def movies with black bars don't use all of an HD TV's resolution. Does that upset you? If done properly, the advanced upconversion should still show whatever benefits it has even after the TV does it's own scaling. That being said, I am eager to go out and purchase one of these players.

Black bars top and bottom don't bother me with normal scope titles because that's how they're meant to be viewed. 960p which the PS3 can do with a feature called "double scale" creates black bars around all four sides of the image. What happens is that it doubles the 480 lines on a DVD to 960 but as no display can accept 960 it fits it into a 1080 space which leaves black bars around all four sides. It does look better (sharper, cleaner) but that's because the image isn't being blown up as big to fit the screen. So if this Toshiba player is infact 960p as has been previously marketed it's likely to do the same as the PS3 and fit the 960 into a 1080 space leaving you with black bars on all four sides. If that turns out to be the case which I suspect it will be, they can count me out.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid263777539/bctid1027011851

super-resolution algorithm running on a dual-core microprocessor. The original video, on the left, was captured with a standard USB 2.0 webcam with an input of 160 by 120 pixels. The output on the right is 320 by 240 pixels.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid263777539/bctid1027011851

super-resolution algorithm running on a dual-core microprocessor. The original video, on the left, was captured with a standard USB 2.0 webcam with an input of 160 by 120 pixels. The output on the right is 320 by 240 pixels.

First, I think that "inventing" 57,600 pixels (320x240 - 160x120) must not be nearly as hard as "inventing" 1,728,000 pixels (1920x1080 - 720x480).

Second, that is a fixed text image. Not moving video.

In short: that demo is useless. Show me a player (even if it is a HTPC-based prototype) taking a commercial DVD and super-upscaling it to near-Blu-ray 1080p in real time.

Toshiba should license this or even mandate this as part of DVD specs. No reason why Blu Ray players should not be able to upscale using this new algorithm.

Toshiba probably cares about prolonging DVD licenses.

This is not a new format, just another way to improve DVD.Why would it stifle Blu Ray?

What's the gap in worldwide sales between DVD and Blu Ray? Anyone? We're talking Amoeba v. Goliath for now. Super upconverting can be a bigger market than any Blu Ray standalone player.

Toshiba should license this or even mandate this as part of DVD specs. No reason why Blu Ray players should not be able to upscale using this new algorithm.

Toshiba probably cares about prolonging DVD licenses.

This is not a new format, just another way to improve DVD.Why would it stifle Blu Ray?

What's the gap in worldwide sales between DVD and Blu Ray? Anyone? We're talking Amoeba v. Goliath for now. Super upconverting can be a bigger market than any Blu Ray standalone player.


whats the point?? Its Cell processor based and new tech right?? Whats it gonna cost?? When you start playing 200+ for a dvd player, might as well get blu ray.

whats the point?? Its Cell processor based and new tech right?? Whats it gonna cost?? When you start playing 200+ for a dvd player, might as well get blu ray.

DVD has more content for now and this technology may help folks like Oppo and Denon and others making DVD players.

However, I agree with you in that adding a Blu Ray player to ones system over a super upconverting DVD Player may be a better option. However, I watch a lot of international movies and for me HD content in general has a very limited selection with little chance of it improving in the near future.

The prices for Blu Ray disks are so high at my Best Buy and Circuit City that it isn't a surprise to see people barely looking at them. Unlike video games, most movies have almost no repeat value.

Great thread. Everyone gets to feel smart about having called Toshiba out on this Crap..

If everyone knows this, why do we keep posting?

Black bars top and bottom don't bother me with normal scope titles because that's how they're meant to be viewed. 960p which the PS3 can do with a feature called "double scale" creates black bars around all four sides of the image. What happens is that it doubles the 480 lines on a DVD to 960 but as no display can accept 960 it fits it into a 1080 space which leaves black bars around all four sides. It does look better (sharper, cleaner) but that's because the image isn't being blown up as big to fit the screen. So if this Toshiba player is infact 960p as has been previously marketed it's likely to do the same as the PS3 and fit the 960 into a 1080 space leaving you with black bars on all four sides. If that turns out to be the case which I suspect it will be, they can count me out.

I edited my post. It should read I am NOT eager to purchase one of these. I will be sitting on the sidelines myself. I suspect you are right about the PS3's feature, I don't know because I don't own one. I can't picture Toshiba marketing this to the general public, only to find out the super upconversion only leaves a letterbox like image on the consumer's screen. That would not go over well. I can almost bet this DVD player will not have the same result as your PS3. My old Hi Def tube tv had a DRC that turned 480 to 960 (or something close to that) that did not cause a letterbox effect on movies. Toshiba will have to make their scaler work with a TV's scaler.

In any event, it's a gimmick. Unless I read some review that says this is the greatest thing since real hi def, I'm going to stick with true HD.

Great thread. Everyone gets to feel smart about having called Toshiba out on this Crap..

If everyone knows this, why do we keep posting?

maybe that nagging feeling lying just under the consciousnesses of bd fans that tosh may actually rise from the dead and throw a wrench into the gears of bds adaption by the masses also resulting in slower rate of catalog/new disc releases.
:)

Toshiba should license this or even mandate this as part of DVD specs. No reason why Blu Ray players should not be able to upscale using this new algorithm.

Unless of course Toshiba decides not to license it and instead market it as being the same as Blu-ray at a cheaper price without the need to repurchase movies.

This is not a new format, just another way to improve DVD.Why would it stifle Blu Ray?

Because through an effective marketing campaign it can build on the already-confused J6P who sometimes thinks they're getting and HD-DVD player when in fact purchasing an HD Upscaling DVD player.

It basically all boils down to Toshiba's intentions here. And there won't be much of a way to hide it one way or another. They'll either license it or they wont.

Brandon

I edited my post. It should read I am NOT eager to purchase one of these. I will be sitting on the sidelines myself. I suspect you are right about the PS3's feature, I don't know because I don't own one. I can't picture Toshiba marketing this to the general public, only to find out the super upconversion only leaves a letterbox like image on the consumer's screen. That would not go over well. I can almost bet this DVD player will not have the same result as your PS3. My old Hi Def tube tv had a DRC that turned 480 to 960 (or something close to that) that did not cause a letterbox effect on movies. Toshiba will have to make their scaler work with a TV's scaler.

In any event, it's a gimmick. Unless I read some review that says this is the greatest thing since real hi def, I'm going to stick with true HD.

Not sure what the technical specs on Apple TV's HD content are, but if Toshiba can get regular DVD to look at that level, I'd say most consumers will be satisfied. On my 52 inch LCD, Apple TV HD and Blu Ray look the same from 8 ft away. I am assuming Apple TV HD is probably not pure HD like Blu Ray since it starts playing in under 30 secs!

maybe that nagging feeling lying just under the consciousnesses of us bd fans that tosh may actually rise from the dead and throw a wrench into the gears of bds adaption by the masses also resulting in slower rate of catalog/new disc releases.
:)

Film buffs understand that a vast quantity of material is going to appear on Blu-Ray approximately never. And wouldn't be improved if it were. So we will need SD-DVD for a long time. And will want to play it as well as we can.

As I've said, I'm skeptical about how much more SD-DVD can be improved, but if someone is willing to go to the time and effort to try it, I want to see the results and judge for myself.

You can watch Little Man and giant cartoon robots only so many times, and then you just have to have a Robert Ryan film noir weekend. I suggest:


The Setup (a brutal boxing picture, directed by Robert Wise)
On Dangerous Ground (with Ida Lupino, great Bernard Hermann score)
Odds Against Tomorrow (filmed on location heist film, again by Robert Wise, with a young Harry Belafonte).

I'm still waiting for titles that have not yet been on DVD, not even on VHS. I don't think I'm slowing Blu-Ray adoption.

-Bill

There must be something to it, otherwise why would Toshiba waste their time? And since the vast majority of consumers are happy with their DVDs, it might have a chnace to sell if it actually works and is inexpenisve. Although I don't think the people on this forum are the target audience of something like this. I personally have no desire to watch a DVD. ONly on a rare occasion like when Stargate: Ark of truth came out. Initially it was only available on DVD so I purcahsed it and watched it. Later it was available in HD from Xbox Live. And I watched it again form there.

aaron, I am curious why you bought the HD DVD version of Twister instead of the Blu Ray. I have an LG 200 and it plays both formats, but so far I haven't played any HD DVD on it. Any reason why you preferred the dead format version? Thanks.

Even if this could miracously make DVD's look like a top of the line blu-ray transfer, heck even a HD DVD transfer that's only half the battle.. What about the audio? Do they have some means to dramatcially improve the audio to bring it close to blu-ray's audio?

Upscale DVD's was cool about 6 years ago, I bought one of the early Zenith models that worked over component. Well cool until real HD finally became available on Comcast in my area, that was pretty dam cool for a while, now there is Blu-ray which is vastly superior to both :D Really no desire for me to go from enjoying the very best in my home and slide down the evolutionary ladder.

Even if this could miracously make DVD's look like a top of the line blu-ray transfer, heck even a HD DVD transfer that's only half the battle.. What about the audio? Do they have some means to dramatcially improve the audio to bring it close to blu-ray's audio?

:D In the real world marketing gimmicks will win out over actual quality. Your own statement, "like a top of the line blu-ray transfer, heck even a HD DVD transfer", is an example of someone who bought into a marketing gimmick. Since this presumes that a top of the line HD DVD could not look as good as a top of the line Blu Ray movie.

Toshiba will probably have to do something about HD audio up-sampling as well ;)

It thought it was funny how Toshiba used to say, buy HD DVD and your DVDs will look better! I used to wonder, how will DVDs look better by buying an HD DVD Player and IF I wanted my DVDs to look better, why get an HD DVD Player, just get the best DVD Player!!!! At least they got the confusion out of the way now and SD DVD is what they are focusing on.

There's nothing "miraculous" or even new about this technology, and it's certainly not a gimmick. It's been around for a long time but has heretofore required far more processing power than even many PC's have. We've all seen the movies where some forensics expert is trying to enhance a still image and the computer is crunching the image for hours. With video, there exists abundant information in multiple frames to use to reconstruct all frames, it's just a matter of crunching all that data in real time and applying it effectively.

Obviously, this new step by Toshiba has to be seen to be believed. But it's clearly not impossible to advance image enhancement to new levels with existing technology.

Comparing this new step to existing BD or HD-DVD is just not relevant, since SD-DVD is the dominant standard now and for the foreseeable future. Oppo has already shown us that many SD-DVDs can look far better than we would have thought possible a few years ago. There's no reason to think that the technology can't advance much further.

Let's see, would I rather buy a new SD-DVD player for a few hundred dollars that makes my extensive DVD library look like new, or replace the entire collection with yet another new format at many times the cost of a player?
Toshiba is showing us that they are serious about providing VALUE to it's consumers, and more power to them.

:D In the real world marketing gimmicks will win out over actual quality. Your own statement, "like a top of the line blu-ray transfer, heck even a HD DVD transfer", is an example of someone who bought into a marketing gimmick. Since this presumes that a top of the line HD DVD could not look as good as a top of the line Blu Ray movie.

Toshiba will probably have to do something about HD audio up-sampling as well ;)

It thought it was funny how Toshiba used to say, buy HD DVD and your DVDs will look better! I used to wonder, how will DVDs look better by buying an HD DVD Player and IF I wanted my DVDs to look better, why get an HD DVD Player, just get the best DVD Player!!!! At least they got the confusion out of the way now and SD DVD is what they are focusing on.

Nothing to do with marketing but my personal experience with both formats in my home. Probably doesn't help that my 3rd gen HD DVD player isn't nearly as good as my first gen blu-ray player as well but review scores go along with my thoughts also (nice to see Universal is going to step up the game for Blu-ray as well instead of lower bandwidth ports from HD DVD, double dips perhaps on some). HD DVD is nice for what it was at the time but it doesn't match up to blu-ray. I already know you disagree, I guess I could follow your tactic and accuse you falling for MS's and Toshiba's marketing but it really doesn't matter to me. I have no desire to change your opinion.

What will be funny if they use "The Look and sound of perfect" for this product as well.

Nothing to do with marketing but my personal experience with both formats in my home. Probably doesn't help that my 3rd gen HD DVD player isn't nearly as good as my first gen blu-ray player as well but review scores go along with my thoughts also (nice to see Universal is going to step up the game for Blu-ray as well instead of lower bandwidth ports from HD DVD, double dips perhaps on some). HD DVD is nice for what it was at the time but it doesn't match up to blu-ray. I already know you disagree, I guess I could follow your tactic and accuse you falling for MS's and Toshiba's marketing but it really doesn't matter to me. I have no desire to change your opinion.

What will be funny if they use "The Look and sound of perfect" for this product as well.

Of course we all buy into marketing. I'll be the first to admit that! These are products that appeal to our senses, it's about perception :)

My wife can't tell the difference between Apple TV HD and Blu Ray. She has a Masters in Mechanical Engineering and an MBA. So at least a regular person with average intelligence. You're in the top 5% that can see the fine difference and call it 'no match for' That's great for you!

I am betting Toshiba here is going after the bottom 70-80% of the folk who want a lot of content and what it to look good and be cheap.

Will this technology work? I am skeptical to say the least :D

On my 52 inch LCD, Apple TV HD and Blu Ray look the same from 8 ft away.

That's because (presumably) all Apple TV HD titles are from HD sources (just like HD Movies on cable/demand).

Let's see, would I rather buy a new SD-DVD player for a few hundred dollars that makes my extensive DVD library look like new, or replace the entire collection with yet another new format at many times the cost of a player?
Toshiba is showing us that they are serious about providing VALUE to it's consumers, and more power to them.

That's a completely disingenuous spin on your behalf. For a few hundred dollars yes you can buy a SD-DVD player that makes your extensive DVD library look better. And for a few hundred dollars you can buy a Blu-ray player that makes your extensive DVD library look better and play a new format. And you mention value...which has more value to the average consumer? You don't have to replace any movies you don't wish to and when you buy a newly released title you're getting something that looks better than the (even super-upconverted) DVD version.

Brandon

And for a few hundred dollars you can buy a Blu-ray player that makes your extensive DVD library look better

Not everyone believes the current Blu-Ray players are the best possible (or even existing) SD-DVD players.

-Bill

DVDs had a good run... Time to move on to bigger and better things. 1080p, 24fps and lossless sound. Doubt the new "super" sd players is gonna get rid of heavy EE, awful transfers, macroblocking and other SD dvd problems.

Of course we all buy into marketing. I'll be the first to admit that! These are products that appeal to our senses, it's about perception :)

My wife can't tell the difference between Apple TV HD and Blu Ray. She has a Masters in Mechanical Engineering and an MBA. So at least a regular person with average intelligence. You're in the top 5% that can see the fine difference and call it 'no match for' That's great for you!

I am betting Toshiba here is going after the bottom 70-80% of the folk who want a lot of content and what it to look good and be cheap.

Will this technology work? I am skeptical to say the least :D

Yes, very skeptical of this claim:

This technology makes it possible to reproduce high-quality images comparable to Blu-ray

Though I don't doubt it will look better than a non-upconverted DVD and could possibly have some improvements over current upconverters. Still I'm a audio fan as well as video and I've invest money over the years in to my home theater for both and that is what I strive for.

I take it Apple TV is far better than MS's Live service and Comcast HD then? How is the audio on Apple TV?

kind of off topic.. I could have sworn I read a comment from you about people buying movies to support the format they want to win and going into debt? Where did you read this? Would be horrible to be an HD DVD fan that did that, though from some of the posts on here and posters that no longer posts since around Christmas time I guess that could be true..

.......Doubt the new "super" sd players is gonna get rid of heavy EE, awful transfers, macroblocking and other SD dvd problems.

BD doesn't rid us of any of these things either.

BD doesn't rid us of any of these things either.

true there are few bad apples from old transfers and early days but pretty much 95% of all the blurays out this year has been 4 stars and up. Ofcourse bitter toshiba losers will never forget the original 5th element.

true there are few bad apples from old transfers and early days but pretty much 95% of all the blurays out this year has been 4 stars and up. Ofcourse bitter toshiba losers will never forget the original 5th element.

I just wish all studios on both sides would have corrected lesser transfers. I'd like a few FREE re-issues for my HD DVD's as well but most likely I'll just be selling them and buying the blu-ray versions.

It does sound like Universal has learned a valualbe lesson from this based on the specs released for upcoming blu-ray titles. Of course I'll wait until we have actual reviews from Ralph and some other users.

It is possible that the Blu group will reduce prices sooner than expected because of this action by Toshiba. I still can't see how even the best upscailing can equal true HD.

What is always funny to me is how so many people talk about "replacing their DVD collection" when talking about purchasing a Blu-ray player. I have about 650 SD-DVDs and about 25 BDs. I have no plans to replace 650 DVDs just because I have a Blu-ray player. I have a lot of multi-region movies as well as titles that will probably never be on Blu-ray. I have no problem watching SD movies through my PS3 or Oppo.

I would consider purchasing the Toshiba if it was a major improvement over current upconverting players and the price was right. I would still buy BDs as well. I do think that depending on how it is marketed, this could be very confusing for those people who have not purchased a Blu-ray player yet and can see a major difference over their current players. They will not see the need to purchase a new format if their SD-DVDs look better. That is why I believe it will hurt HD adoption.

Do any of you think Toshiba will take my A2 as trade in for the this new player considering HD is dead.

Yes, very skeptical of this claim:



Though I don't doubt it will look better than a non-upconverted DVD and could possibly have some improvements over current upconverters. Still I'm a audio fan as well as video and I've invest money over the years in to my home theater for both and that is what I strive for.

I take it Apple TV is far better than MS's Live service and Comcast HD then? How is the audio on Apple TV?

kind of off topic.. I could have sworn I read a comment from you about people buying movies to support the format they want to win and going into debt? Where did you read this? Would be horrible to be an HD DVD fan that did that, though from some of the posts on here and posters that no longer posts since around Christmas time I guess that could be true..

Apple TV is a notch better than Comcast or even FiOS (which we have here). The audio is standard 5.1 for HD. I guess the biggest plus is that you can browse and rent and it starts playing in under 30 secs. The UI is excellent. It's take longer to play any Disney movie on my Blu Ray player (with the ads and all).

One problem with Apple TV though is the lack of subtitles. Some movies I prefer to have them on.

In the post where I said it, it was in reference to the word 'frightening'. I said it would be 'frightening' if someone took these things too seriously. Blu Ray is still an expensive technology from a software perspective. If you can afford it, great. Hence why we are seeing a lot of renting, and renting is where products like Apple TV have an advantage. I bet studios get more when you rent from Apple then rent a Blu Ray from Netflix.

Anyway, not a big deal :)

I think buying movies is quite silly... However I do have few hundred dvds bought over the years which I regret. Biggest waste of money, most of them have gotten maybe one or two viewings except for a very few. With blockbuster online sending 3 new movies a week, why even bother wasting 20+ dollars for a movie? I see all these pictures of hd collection in the forums and most of those movies are pretty much throw away or not even opened.

Not everyone believes the current Blu-Ray players are the best possible (or even existing) SD-DVD players.

-Bill

Nor should they have to in order to find more value in it over something that only performs one of those functions...even if it's presumably better at it. If you're prepared to assume that this technology is demonstrably better than anything currently on the market for a "couple hundred dollars" then you put a lot more faith in the claims than I do.

Brandon

If you're prepared to assume that this technology is demonstrably better than anything currently on the market for a "couple hundred dollars" then you put a lot more faith in the claims than I do.

I have said more than once I am skeptical but would like to judge the results for myself.

The superiority of Blu-Ray is irrelevent if the content I want is not on Blu-Ray. If it is (and has been mastered appropriately) I'll be there. It won't be because there is no economic justification for the studios to make the effort.

-Bill

Apple TV is a notch better than Comcast or even FiOS (which we have here). The audio is standard 5.1 for HD. I guess the biggest plus is that you can browse and rent and it starts playing in under 30 secs. The UI is excellent. It's take longer to play any Disney movie on my Blu Ray player (with the ads and all).

One problem with Apple TV though is the lack of subtitles. Some movies I prefer to have them on.

In the post where I said it, it was in reference to the word 'frightening'. I said it would be 'frightening' if someone took these things too seriously. Blu Ray is still an expensive technology from a software perspective. If you can afford it, great. Hence why we are seeing a lot of renting, and renting is where products like Apple TV have an advantage. I bet studios get more when you rent from Apple then rent a Blu Ray from Netflix.

Anyway, not a big deal :)

Ok, thanks. Apple TV isn't for me then but I'm glad you enjoy it.

My mistake, I must have misread as I honestly thought you typed you knew of people who went into debt over HDM.

I think buying movies is quite silly... However I do have few hundred dvds bought over the years which I regret. Biggest waste of money, most of them have gotten maybe one or two viewings except for a very few. With blockbuster online sending 3 new movies a week, why even bother wasting 20+ dollars for a movie? I see all these pictures of hd collection in the forums and most of those movies are pretty much throw away or not even opened.


I think your statement is silly. I have several thousand of my favorite movies in my library. I'm not worried about how many times I view each title, I simply want them available for my pleasure. I also have a large library of books, and gosh only knows how many times I will ever get to read them again. Perhaps I should have a yard sale?

Bottom line is: if you can't afford it, find a new hobby ;)

I think your statement is silly. I have several thousand of my favorite movies in my library. I'm not worried about how many times I view each title, I simply want them available for my pleasure. I also have a large library of books, and gosh only knows how many times I will ever get to read them again. Perhaps I should have a yard sale?

Bottom line is: if you can't afford it, find a new hobby ;)

I don't need junk and clutter that won't be used. Being a pack rat isn't a hobby, its a disease.

its not going to be any better than currrent hi end upscalers, this is a joke

its not going to be any better than currrent hi end upscalers, this is a joke

How do you know it is not going to be any better.
Have you tested one yet ?

jl

Doubt the new "super" sd players is gonna get rid of heavy EE, awful transfers, macroblocking and other SD dvd problems.

These problems are due to lack of care in the production of the disc, not in the SD technology. A good SD player can reduce some of the problems but in the end, if they just produced the disk properly in the first place then they can look very good. There are some excellent SD disks around that dont have heavy EE, are excellent transfers and dont have macroblocking.

I look forward to the day when people will look back at people saying "Garbage in--Garbage out" as the cave man days.

These problems are due to lack of care in the production of the disc, not in the SD technology. A good SD player can reduce some of the problems but in the end, if they just produced the disk properly in the first place then they can look very good. There are some excellent SD disks around that dont have heavy EE, are excellent transfers and dont have macroblocking.

+1

The list of well-mastered SD-DVDs is a whole lot longer than the list of well-mastered BD discs.

First, I think that "inventing" 57,600 pixels (320x240 - 160x120) must not be nearly as hard as "inventing" 1,728,000 pixels (1920x1080 - 720x480).

Second, that is a fixed text image. Not moving video.

In short: that demo is useless. Show me a player (even if it is a HTPC-based prototype) taking a commercial DVD and super-upscaling it to near-Blu-ray 1080p in real time.

isnt what you ask to see, exactly what this thread is talking about?? i suppose later this year you will see one... what i linked to was showing that you can "guess" what info is missing if you use enough frames before and after the one being processed... 9 frames before and 9 after is what i read.

+1

The list of well-mastered SD-DVDs is a whole lot longer than the list of well-mastered BD discs.

I really hope so since there are million times more disks currently. Besides even on the best dvd transfers have noticeable EE. I really don't think any of you guys even seen a movie in HD.

The superiority of Blu-Ray is irrelevent if the content I want is not on Blu-Ray.

I don't see how that is universally true across all scenarios. This assumes that you're going to see demonstrably better results with the super-upscaling(at an affordable price) hence it being the only factor to consider.

+1

The list of well-mastered SD-DVDs is a whole lot longer than the list of well-mastered BD discs.

Proportionately? I highly doubt that.

Brandon

I don't see how that is universally true across all scenarios. This assumes that you're going to see demonstrably better results with the super-upscaling(at an affordable price) hence it being the only factor to consider.

You've lost me there. I said:

The superiority of Blu-Ray is irrelevent if the content I want is not on Blu-Ray.

For a given title, existing content on format X is infinitely better than non-existing content on format Y, regardless of the merits of Y over X. I follow the content, I want to see the films. Displayed as well as I can manage, but displayed with lesser technology if that is all I have.

Since my content will (at best) be limited to SD-DVD for the next N years, I'm always interested in better SD-DVD playback,

I am not assuming (which for some reason I have to keep repeating in this thread) the new technology will give demonstrably better results at an affordable price. But I can be open-minded about the possibility without commiting some sort of crime against Blu-Ray, right?

I don't see a problem with "wait and see." Players are supposed to available this year.

-Bill

http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/18970/page1/

The general idea is that by examining multiple frames of video, better educated guesses can be made about missing pixels. This kind of makes sense... If an object is moving, the digital sampling of the object changes with each frame (i.e. the mapping of pixels on the object). There may be no way to "invent" missing pixels for a single frame of video, but if you are smart enough, examining other frames may reveal details.

Put another way, even with the amount of compression we have today, there is still A LOT of headroom for compressing even more. Having the information for a high-resolution object spread across multiple frames of video can be thought of as a form of compression. It just takes a lot of effort and processing power to extract the information.

One particular situation where I don't see this tech helping at all is for sequences of video frames where a significant portion of the image is not moving (i.e. a static background).

http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/18970/page1/

The general idea is that by examining multiple frames of video, better educated guesses can be made about missing pixels. This kind of makes sense... If an object is moving, the digital sampling of the object changes with each frame (i.e. the mapping of pixels on the object). There may be no way to "invent" missing pixels for a single frame of video, but if you are smart enough, examining other frames may reveal details.

Put another way, even with the amount of compression we have today, there is still A LOT of headroom for compressing even more. Having the information for a high-resolution object spread across multiple frames of video can be thought of as a form of compression. It just takes a lot of effort and processing power to extract the information.

One particular situation where I don't see this tech helping at all is for sequences of video frames where a significant portion of the image is not moving (i.e. a static background).

If the object is moving you can't infer anything about any of the static fields that make up the movement. You can make movement smoother but you can't infer anything more about detail of any of the fields. Both types of DVDs are just static images strung together to show motion when viewed at the proper speed. Take a 720x240 (480i) field and compare it to a 1920x1080 (1080p24) frame. Which has more detail? These two things are basic "elements" put on the respective discs that are captured source.

A quote from the article: "The data collected in the first step is then used to estimate the movement of new pixels that are added to increase the video resolution." They seem to be bastardizing the term "resolution". I have no doubt they can probably make motion look smoother or more real, but it is still a guess. Given the absence of info in 720x240 fields, there's plenty of room for improvement when trying to show motion. However, what about most of the static parts of video?

Also, it's not surprising that these "super algorithms" come from companies trying to sell hardware to run them on. :) If they can make SD-DVDs appear better in a $100 player, I'm all for it.

larry

If the object is moving you can't infer anything about any of the static fields that make up the movement. You can make movement smoother but you can't infer anything more about detail of any of the fields. Both types of DVDs are just static images strung together to show motion when viewed at the proper speed. Take a 720x240 (480i) field and compare it to a 1920x1080 (1080p24) frame. Which has more detail? These two things are basic "elements" put on the respective discs that are captured source.

A quote from the article: "The data collected in the first step is then used to estimate the movement of new pixels that are added to increase the video resolution." They seem to be bastardizing the term "resolution". I have no doubt they can probably make motion look smoother or more real, but it is still a guess. Given the absence of info in 720x240 fields, there's plenty of room for improvement when trying to show motion. However, what about most of the static parts of video?

Also, it's not surprising that these "super algorithms" come from companies trying to sell hardware to run them on. :) If they can make SD-DVDs appear better in a $100 player, I'm all for it.

larry

I did some more poking around...

google "spursengine"

This is a Cell-based device (as in the PS3 Cell processor) that Toshiba has designed as a video processor. I bet this is what they plan to use in their new line of DVD players.

Also, google "super resolution". There has been a bit of academic research on this topic. It is NOT marketing buzzword.

So this thing is gonna use a Cell processor gonna be under 200dollars?? I'll believe it when I see it.

So this thing is gonna use a Cell processor gonna be under 200dollars?? I'll believe it when I see it.

It's Cell-based in that it uses SPU processors. Otherwise, it is very different from PS3's Cell Broadband Engine.

You've lost me there.

I see that...I'll just drop it.

Brandon

I did some more poking around...

google "spursengine"

This is a Cell-based device (as in the PS3 Cell processor) that Toshiba has designed as a video processor. I bet this is what they plan to use in their new line of DVD players.

Also, google "super resolution". There has been a bit of academic research on this topic. It is NOT marketing buzzword. Why it's being researched is not a surprise. Being able to intelligently guess details of one "field" when the "field" is viewed from a different perspective (at a different time) is not easy. :) This technology far more suited for other things than DVD playback, hence the research. And we'll ignore the fact of how academic research is done **cough** sponsors ***cough***. :) Until it gets in a $100 or less player (and one that's not a small room heater like the PS3) it's not going to do much from a SD-DVD play back perspective. The general public doesn't care. It's obvious Toshiba's penchant for it is just sour grapes over HD-DVD - anything to hinder BD adoption.

larry

I don't need junk and clutter that won't be used. Being a pack rat isn't a hobby, its a disease.


So let me get this straight; anyone with a beautiful library in their home is suffering from a disease? Would that sentiment also include people such as Jay Leno or Reggie Jackson wo enjoy collecting and storing classic automobiles? Wow, there sure are a lot of sick people out there. Of course I'm not ridiculing any of the philistines who might be among us :rolleyes:

So let me get this straight; anyone with a beautiful library in their home is suffering from a disease? Would that sentiment also include people such as Jay Leno or Reggie Jackson wo enjoy collecting and storing classic automobiles? Wow, there sure are a lot of sick people out there. Of course I'm not ridiculing any of the philistines who might be among us :rolleyes:

are you trying to compare dvds sitting on the self collecting dust vs classic autos?? You can't see the difference?? *sigh* :rolleyes:

There is a huge difference being a pack rack and a enthusiast. Oh yeh and as a huge motorhead myself, Jay happens to drive every single one of his cars. Its just not just a plastic disk on the self collecting dust.

dj james loves men.

I don't need junk and clutter that won't be used. Being a pack rat isn't a hobby, its a disease.

Please help me, are you saying this is a social disease? No wonder my mother said collecting pictures of scantily clad women was bad for my health and I would wind up with a plethora of bad ailments.:D

Super Resolution is an interesting concept. Wonder if there are any examples of movies or photos that have been enhanced in this manner?

But doing this in real time is not yet possible in a CE product. As the Technology Review article states, "Using this method, it would take about 150 cores to convert DVD video into HD DVD in real time..."

This amount of processing power is not going to be available in any home product, let alone a $100 DVD player, anytime soon. So, unless a significantly more efficient algorithm has been created, how can Toshiba possibly achieve the claimed results?

If one wanted to, it seems that it would be possible TODAY to get an idea of what the true potential of super resolution processing of SD media is without waiting for Toshiba to release its product. It looks like there are a number of software tools out there (both shareware and for a fee) that can convert video using super resolution processing algorithms - although not in real-time. If one were to take a clip from a movie and apply this processing, then connect the computer to TV for playback of the enhanced version, a side-by-side comparison can be made to current real-time DVD upscaling solutions and/or true Hi-Def media playback.

Are there any video editors out there up for the task?

I'm looking forward to this since I have zero interest in Blue Ray and the vast majority of my library is in SD.

[QUOTE=veets;14009861]Super Resolution is an interesting concept. Wonder if there are any examples of movies or photos that have been enhanced in this manner?

But doing this in real time is not yet possible in a CE product. As the Technology Review article states, "Using this method, it would take about 150 cores to convert DVD video into HD DVD in real time..."

This amount of processing power is not going to be available in any home product, let alone a $100 DVD player, anytime soon. [end quote]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
got a link or some other proof of that last sentence?

You think it will?

I'm looking forward to this since I have zero interest in Blue Ray and the vast majority of my library is in SD.

im gonna get a bd player soon, but i am also hoping these upcoming tosh players work as advertised.
i'm optomistic and i'll give it a chance.
we'll supposedly find out within about 7 months.

[QUOTE=veets;14009861]As the Technology Review article states, "Using this method, it would take about 150 cores to convert DVD video into HD DVD in real time..."

This amount of processing power is not going to be available in any home product, let alone a $100 DVD player, anytime soon. [end quote]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
got a link or some other proof of that last sentence?


Actually, I just made the assumption based on where the technology is today. For example, Cell processors were announced in 2004 and are now reaching 8 processing elements (cores). http://semiconductors.globalspec.com/LearnMore/Semiconductors/Microprocessors_Microcontrollers/Cell_Processors So if you consider Moore's law, it's going to be awhile before anything with 150 cores is available. But this is really interesting. Apparently, Toshiba has developed a cell processor which is capable of decoding MPEG-2 SD streams into a 1,920 x 1,080 resolution display. They demonstrated this at the 2008 CES:

"Attention-grabbing demonstrations at CES will include:

Image super-resolution creates high definition (HD) video from standard definition (SD) video, for instance video library recorded so far, by enhancing pixel resolution."

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2008_01/pr0701.htm

So Toshiba's Super Resolution technology was being developed before HD-DVD got killed by Warner last January.

[QUOTE=westgate;14012679]


Actually, I just made the assumption based on where the technology is today. For example, Cell processors were announced in 2004 and are now reaching 8 processing elements (cores). http://semiconductors.globalspec.com/LearnMore/Semiconductors/Microprocessors_Microcontrollers/Cell_Processors So if you consider Moore's law, it's going to be awhile before anything with 150 cores is available. But this is really interesting. Apparently, Toshiba has developed a cell processor which is capable of decoding MPEG-2 SD streams into a 1,920 x 1,080 resolution display. They demonstrated this at the 2008 CES:

"Attention-grabbing demonstrations at CES will include:

Image super-resolution creates high definition (HD) video from standard definition (SD) video, for instance video library recorded so far, by enhancing pixel resolution."

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2008_01/pr0701.htm

So Toshiba's Super Resolution technology was being developed before HD-DVD got killed by Warner last January.

thanks!
fwiw, i really hope it (super upconversion) works but i'll believe it when i see it.

i would think that what gets released on the 'net/press lags behind what happens in tosh (or anyones') labs/testing facilities.

The vast majority of anyone's library is SD so that doesn't fly. Why wouldn't one be interested in Blu Ray versus this Toshiba process? The process is only half of what Blu Ray offers.

Polishing a turd and pure marketing (Hi Def SD DVD). Apparently Toshiba still thinks they can win with some other invention nobody will adopt. Upconverting is a buzzward that is a huge step below HD..... I think Toshiba should make Blu Ray players and getting on with HD. DVD is a moribund medium. Blu Ray IS the future. Accept it Toshiba.

A polished turd is better than a dull turd. I would love to see what can really be done with upscaling. Let's say you can end up with the equivalent of a current $4000 processor in a player for $99, I would take it.

But, I will agree that Toshiba should make a BD player, maybe even a combo for all of those that did buy into the failed format and would like to make sure their discs are playable. Add in a quantum leap in upconversion, and I'd buy it.

Of course Toshiba is just following standard Japanese CE practice. Sony did the same thing in the 80's by saying they would not make VHS players- ultimately they had no choice as will Toshiba when (if?) BD ends DVD's reign.

I really want Toshiba to license this technology out to Sony for a firmware update on the PS3.

Let's say you can end up with the equivalent of a current $4000 processor in a player for $99, I would take it.

I think everybody would. And some of us would also like to see that technology incorporated into a CE device that plays Blu-rays as well.

Brandon

Why does everyone fight over dvd vs. blu-ray? Everyone knows the picture on blu-ray is awsome, from everywhere i read its the price that people dont like. Like me it's hard to go from paying 5 to 15 dollars for a movie up to 15 to 30 depending on the film. If it wasn't for ebay or amazon which i look at often im sure not many people would be buying as many discs. I go to CC, BB, Target and Walmart and never see anyone hovering around the BD section to buy their 25 to 40 dollar movies. When prices go down to current dvd levels blu-ray will be the mass market disc for the avarage consumer or atleast the small amount of americans that own an HDTV to begin with. Anyhow I think the new slogan for this super Upscaler should be.....The look and sound of almost perfect. lol

I was in exactly your same boat, as I own about 450 DVD titles, many of which will never be released in HD (and many of the older titles wouldn't benefit much anyway). I love HD-DVD (may it R.I.P.) as well as Blu-ray, but my HD players are terrible at processing SD-DVD's. Do yourself a favor and order an Oppo 983. It will bring out the absolute best from your SD collection. As an owner of two Toshiba HD-DVD players, I have no doubt that whatever player Toshiba releases it will never come close to the Oppo 983, not even in the same ballpark, most likely. The Oppo has almost perfect processing, and is probably one of the best deals in AV equipment, ever. I was very skeptical about spending $399 on a SD player: it seemed as though I was taking a step back. But after owning the 983, I look at it as the same as when I bought a high quality subwoofer: "I no longer have to worry about replacing that with something better anytime in the future; whatever new tech they come out with, a good sub is a good sub....". The Oppo 983 to me represents the pinnacle of DVD technology, and nothing "new" or "better" is going to come up around the corner, ever.


And what's even better is that playing movies, the Oppo 980H, which is less than half the cost of the new 983, does just as well. The 983 is slightly better on video, but nearly identical in movie upconversion. Another nice thing -- the cheaper 980H does DSD over HDMI for SACD. Even the 983 can't do that.

Even Toshiba can't get past the fact that studios want copy protection. If/when blu-ray players come down enough in cost, and enough homes have them, the studios will slowly begin to drop DVD releases. Blu-ray adoption is happening, and contrary to anti-Blur-ray pricing arguments, it's happening at a rate similar to the adoption of DVD over VHS.

Blu-ray is still priced too high to interest the rest of my family, however.

Gimic... Crap goes in, crap comes out. No processor can create details in the picture that isn't there. Besides the Oppo 983 is possibly the best dvd player on the market and that cost much as a blu ray player.

So true. Too many DVDs are just horrible. Until they figure out how to properly master a DVD , your SOL. As an avid DVD collector I can say that I can pretty much count the well mastered releases on one hand.

Why does everyone fight over dvd vs. blu-ray?

Because the other format war is over.

So true. Too many DVDs are just horrible. Until they figure out how to properly master a DVD , your SOL. As an avid DVD collector I can say that I can pretty much count the well mastered releases on one hand.

Agree with that.

Brandon

Blu-ray adoption is happening, and contrary to anti-Blur-ray pricing arguments, it's happening at a rate similar to the adoption of DVD over VHS.


Can you provide the source of that info about adoption rate, as I would like to read more? Generally everything I read is similar to that at the following source, which is based on industry reports. This indicates the rate of uptake of BR is not in the same ballpark as DVD was over VHS.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Blu-ray-mass-adoption-not-likely-until-2009.html

This is why Toshiba are still interested in trying to wring a bit more out of DVD technology.

This is why Toshiba are still interested in trying to wring a bit more out of DVD technology.

Ha...there are several reasons why Toshiba wants to wring a bit more out of DVD technology, and that isn't likely to be one of them.

Brandon

I am really starting to think this will be way to late for the market by the time it hits. It seems to me that HD is starting to pick up some steam and by December who knows what'll happen but if they were going to come out with this to hurt BD at all it would have to be now, by december prices probably wont be so high in the stratosphere for BD equipment and discs.

Why does everyone fight over dvd vs. blu-ray? Everyone knows the picture on blu-ray is awsome, from everywhere i read its the price that people dont like.

Well, aside from the price, I don't like that BD Players are a fat, bloated, buggy mess of over ambitious effort to 'protect' the content. Aside from PQ/SQ, they offer very little 'customer facing' benefits, focusing primarily on benefits to content providers (ie. 'protection').

Blu-Ray players and their java-laden discs, in current form, is sloooow and buggy. No way to argue around that. How this format ever won anything is beyond me... well, actually it's not.

Sony dug deep and bought itself the market by locking in content providers in lucrative deals. It was not necessarily "the best" that won... not on it's own merits, anyways. No secret there. My chiefmost complaint is that it's dog slow... even the fastest loading discs on the fastest loading players are slow by fast-loading SD standards. It's actually quite irritating and my family has asked that we limit the Blu-Ray netflix rentals because they hate dealing with the Blu-Ray disc loads. Small thing, you might say/think... but not when you have a wife and 4 kids prone to marathon movie watching and frequent disc swapping. It's easily slow enough to be a downright irritant. I feel like I need to 'pre-load' the movie when we have company so they don't have to stare at the screen and wonder if it's gonna work or not.

I think they need to add a hardware based Java accelerator and a Quad-Core Xeon processor to make the technology not feel like an overstuffed pig when you interact with it. ;-)

Other than that, Blu-Ray is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Woo-hoo. Way to go Sony. You 'won'.

(I'm not 'bitter'... I don't own an HD-DVD player, but I do own a BD player so I feel free rant about the mess that it is)

mark

Toshiba controversially announces their new 1080p upscaling technology will rival Blu-ray (http://techdigest.tv/2008/06/toshiba_controv.html)

Early June a rumour emerged that Toshiba would be launching a new attack on Sony, via the magic of new 'upscaling' technology. Of course, this is nothing new, with Toshiba themselves working on similar products for "some considerable years, at least 3-5 years", with DVD players, TVs and now laptops containing the upscaling chips, plus with their 'Super-resolution' imagery where SD-content is upscaled via an interpolation algorithm to 1080p.

However, today at a London event, Toshiba formally announced upscaling would be their next plan of attack on Sony, claiming they would be focussing on "taking standard content, and displaying in HD format". This technology, upscaling standard definition content, such as a DVD, to a higher resolution, has long been controversial for not even comparing to the real high-def experience that comes via Blu-ray, or HD DVD.

Toshiba explained to the assembled press at today's event that their technology would "add resolution", and "fill in the gaps", providing stronger colours and clarity where it was missing. They showed two TVs both displaying the same content, one at standard definition, and one using their upscaling device, and whilst the latter did look more impressive, it would pale in comparison if shown next to a true HD source. Which Toshiba obviously didn't do, as they're no longer endorsing HD DVD and will never support Blu-ray.

After receiving some far from publishable questions and insults from the assembled journalists ("fanciable nonsense" was one of the kinder remarks from a journalist during the Q&A session), the representatives, including Emily Shirley, Head of Product Marketing at Toshiba Europe were obviously getting irate. "Blu-ray is only a storage medium", they retorted, explaining it was not the only way to view high-def content on your TV.

Digital downloads are proving to be a lucrative business for all concerned, particularly Microsoft, and it was obvious from today's meeting that Toshiba will be supporting that side of the new format war for the foreseeable future. "The fact that Bill Gates and everyone in the industry is talking about downloads is illustrious", one of the panel members responded with, when asked about the worth of downloads in comparison to Blu-ray, however they hastened to add "we're not necessarily saying anything negative about Blu-ray".

It's unclear as to what products Toshiba will be launching in the next few months with the upscaling chip, however the Qosmio laptops announced today all feature the technology. All eyes will be on the IFA technology show on August 20th in Berlin, where Toshiba is expected to introduce their new Blu-ray 'killer'.

I think it's quite hypocritical of Toshiba trying to sway the general public over to high def in the form of HD-DVD(which the PQ on HD-DVD and Blu-ray were pretty much equal) and now that the format war is over they withdrawal from HD media in favor of their beloved DVD format. What a bunch of sore losers. The product they are bringing may be fine as an alternative, but to bring this product to the market because they lost the war shows where Toshibas heart is. It's all about them!

And for those out there that thought Toshiba's lower price on HD-DVD was because they cared about you more than Sony think again! The prices were lower because they were losing. Shame on you Toshiba.

Well, aside from the price, I don't like that BD Players are a fat, bloated, buggy mess of over ambitious effort to 'protect' the content. Aside from PQ/SQ, they offer very little 'customer facing' benefits, focusing primarily on benefits to content providers (ie. 'protection').

Blu-Ray players and their java-laden discs, in current form, is sloooow and buggy. No way to argue around that. How this format ever won anything is beyond me... well, actually it's not.

Sony dug deep and bought itself the market by locking in content providers in lucrative deals. It was not necessarily "the best" that won... not on it's own merits, anyways. No secret there. My chiefmost complaint is that it's dog slow... even the fastest loading discs on the fastest loading players are slow by fast-loading SD standards.

oh boy...here we go :)

A few photos of this technology in action from user Carrion on another site. Comes from Toshiba Japan:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080114/dg96_13.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080114/dg96_12.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080114/dg96_15.jpg

^^^It looks like pretty cool technology for the standard def crowd actually. There are a LOT of DVD's out there right now, so I can understand why Toshiba is doing this. This is a business, plain and simple, and they have to go where the money is. I actually own a Panny BD30, which I use for both SD and Blu, but I'm not delusional about Blu Ray being adopted by the masses as fast as some say here. The casual consumer just doesn't seem to care that much about HDM, especially for the price you see both the media and players going for now. Toshiba is going after the casual consumer that likes "good" PQ at a good price. BTW, has it really come to this? I mean, I understand the fan boys frequenting the HD DVD board(when that actually meant something), but the standard def board? That's just pathetic.:p

hey, 'y'all', ya think toshiba's nuts saying their super upconverter is as good as bd, check out the front page of avs.

high end dvd server maker kaleidascape is claiming their version of dvd upscaler "rivals blue ray for non-videophiles...".

im sure it will get its own thread, soon. or not.

Kaleidescape: $4,295 1080p Player and $2,995 1080p Mini Player


Yikees! :eek:

Well, aside from the price, I don't like that BD Players are a fat, bloated, buggy mess of over ambitious effort to 'protect' the content. Aside from PQ/SQ, they offer very little 'customer facing' benefits, focusing primarily on benefits to content providers (ie. 'protection')......


So offering vastly superior video quality and vastly superior sound quality is not offering "customer facing" benefits? Sorry, but in my home theater those are "customer facing" benefits.

As far as bugs, my Sony 300 has never shown a single bug. It has played every BD flawlessly. It's SD playback is horrible, but thats why I have an Oppo 983. As far as slow load times, I could care less. Is it really that big of a deal to wait 30 seconds for a movie to start? To me it's much less annoying than having a dozen previews to wade through on a SD or BR. Mildly irritating? Maybe. An issue enough to not consider BR? No way.

Kaleidescape: $4,295 1080p Player and $2,995 1080p Mini Player


Yikees! :eek:


And people complain about BR prices. The funny thing is, that even if these come close to BR PQ, which I doubt they will, BR still has vastly superior sound quality. So what's the point?

""rivals blue ray for non-videophiles...".

So it rivals blu-ray for those that don't care about PQ. Great and a road apple tastes just like apple pie for people without tastes buds :eek:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080114/dg96_15.jpg

There's something fishy about this "demo" image. Assuming some magical algorithm created the image on the right from the SD input image on the left, how did the algorithm sharpen up the entire image except for the snowman in the background? Its still blurry. How did the algorithm know that the snowman was slightly out of focus in the original image? It would have to both (1) figure out the distance of all objects from the camera, and (2) somehow figure out the focal length of the camera lens to estimate the focus blur.

I don't believe it. The snowman anomaly gives it away. The image on the left was created from the image on the right by low-pass filtering the entire image. Although I do think you can do some amazing things with upconverting resolution, there's no way to know about depth of field focus blur when the entire image is blurred about the same in the source image. I think Toshiba has rigged this demo to make the Super Resolution results look more dramatic.

Don't get me wrong, I really want this to be true. I have a large collection of SD DVDs, and I'd really like a high tech upconversion process like this. Technically, there's a lot you can do in frequency space with the DCT image data prior to MPEG conversion that has the potential to "create" resolution not present in the source image. There are artifacts that have to be dealt with, but a fine tuned algorithm and lots of processing power could do some amazing things. But not what's shown in this demo image.

Really if they are so confident of their product why didn't they have it running next to Blu-ray player or even and HD DVD player? After all the HD DVD hoople spewed from them and MS I'm not giving them the benefit of doubt. I'm all for a great upconverting option and I bought one of the first upconverting players released years ago but I am skeptical to say the least.

Toshiba is going after the casual consumer that likes "good" PQ at a good price.

I haven't seen any pricing information anywhere.

Brandon

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080114/dg96_15.jpg

There's something fishy about this "demo" image. Assuming some magical algorithm created the image on the right from the SD input image on the left, how did the algorithm sharpen up the entire image except for the snowman in the background? Its still blurry. How did the algorithm know that the snowman was slightly out of focus in the original image? It would have to both (1) figure out the distance of all objects from the camera, and (2) somehow figure out the focal length of the camera lens to estimate the focus blur.


You're not looking at the big picture (sorta a pun, sorry). From what I gather, the algorithm takes multiple frames in the video to get it's information. Say it takes a batch of five frames before and five frames after to come up with a single frame that it displays...if all 10 of those are out of focus then of course the result will end up showing that.

You're not looking at the big picture (sorta a pun, sorry). From what I gather, the algorithm takes multiple frames in the video to get it's information. Say it takes a batch of five frames before and five frames after to come up with a single frame that it displays...if all 10 of those are out of focus then of course the result will end up showing that.

And if things aren't in motion, how much of an improvement can there really be by taking multiple frames of the same low resolution object to create one? You still have to add in details that came from....???

Brandon

And if things aren't in motion, how much of an improvement can there really be by taking multiple frames of the same low resolution object to create one? You still have to add in details that came from....???

Brandon

That brings up another thing that could possibly result in a very distracting presentation. You have a still shot of something for a significant time so the detail is low, then a bit of movement resulting in all of a sudden higher detailed image, then it goes still again, back to a low quality image.

I haven't seen any pricing information anywhere.

Brandon
Well, Toshiba has always been about keeping costs "relatively" low so I'm guessing that this won't be any different. I see an awful lot of bashing of a product that hasn't even been released for review yet. All Tosh is doing is making claims for right now just like any other company would do. You'll have plenty of time to pick the technology apart once it's actually released to the public. Regardless of the actual performance of this new technology, it still appears that DVD has an awful lot of life left, so there's no use stressing about a company trying to capitalize on that. Oh, I still find it pathetic to see the BR crowd descending on the Standard Def Forum. BR has already won the HD war and that's all you can ask for right now. Both HD resolutions were identical so I can understand the "competition" there, but everyone already knows that BR is superior to DVD in PQ and SQ. At this point, it's truly up to the consumer to make the decision if it's worth it to switch. And I'm not sure if any amount of marketing will change that. As of right now, too many people just seem to be satisified with upconverted DVD resolution and DD sound.

Oh, I still find it pathetic to see the BR crowd descending on the Standard Def Forum.

Well, aside from the fact that BD owners are not mutually exclusive to DVD owners, I'd say you should keep in mind that the original thread was posted in the HDM/BD forum and then moved or merged here. I've never looked at a thread in the DVD forum, so I know the only reason I'm here is because this was originally posted in another forum and I subscribed to it.

Brandon

Well, Toshiba has always been about keeping costs "relatively" low so I'm guessing that this won't be any different. I see an awful lot of bashing of a product that hasn't even been released for review yet. All Tosh is doing is making claims for right now just like any other company would do. You'll have plenty of time to pick the technology apart once it's actually released to the public. Regardless of the actual performance of this new technology, it still appears that DVD has an awful lot of life left, so there's no use stressing about a company trying to capitalize on that. Oh, I still find it pathetic to see the BR crowd descending on the Standard Def Forum. BR has already won the HD war and that's all you can ask for right now. Both HD resolutions were identical so I can understand the "competition" there, but everyone already knows that BR is superior to DVD in PQ and SQ. At this point, it's truly up to the consumer to make the decision if it's worth it to switch. And I'm not sure if any amount of marketing will change that. As of right now, too many people just seem to be satisified with upconverted DVD resolution and DD sound.

if the tosh superupconverter, if by some miracle, performs as advertised, it could throw a serious dent in bd acceptance by j6p/john q public/the masses.

they would have little reason to spend $ on bd anything if their sd dvds could look just/almost as good. and this could further slow down releases of bd catalog titles (maybe even new bd titles) by the studios as they would have less $ incentive to do so.


i

The picture on the left looks out of focus however still pretty good. However, I'm sure their demo is with ideal source/transfer. One SD DVD can be undersatured while another can be oversaturated, etc, etc, etc. Somehow I'm betting that results from their product are going to be a mixed bag. And then if someone cares about HD audio then they are outta luck. Nice idea, but to me it just seems like Toshiba is a bunch of sore losers. If Sony would have lost I would've said the same about them had they gone this route.

The picture on the left looks out of focus however still pretty good. However, I'm sure their demo is with ideal source/transfer. One SD DVD can be undersatured while another can be oversaturated, etc, etc, etc. Somehow I'm betting that results from their product are going to be a mixed bag. And then if someone cares about HD audio then they are outta luck. Nice idea, but to me it just seems like Toshiba is a bunch of sore losers. If Sony would have lost I would've said the same about them had they gone this route.
No SD DVD really looks that bad when viewed close up. I am really looking forward to this new SR DVD players, the last thing I want to do is replace my existing DVD library.

Though I am still not happy with Toshiba’s lack of HD DVD aggression and advertisement.

You're not looking at the big picture (sorta a pun, sorry). From what I gather, the algorithm takes multiple frames in the video to get it's information. Say it takes a batch of five frames before and five frames after to come up with a single frame that it displays...if all 10 of those are out of focus then of course the result will end up showing that.

That still doesn't explain the snowman image anomaly. From what you're saying, the background must have been moving, so the algorithm didn't sharpen the background. However, there is no apparent directional motion blur in the background on the left image. Also, this would imply someone was moving the bookcase at the back of the image, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

This image looks like a motionless "still life" to me. From the left image, there is no apparent motion -- all objects are at rest, and the camera is still. If the camera where panning, the entire image would show some directional motion blur. On a still image, any 3D (2D + time) algorithm will sharpen the entire image equally, and you won't get the blurry snowman you see on the right side image.

if the tosh superupconverter, if by some miracle, performs as advertised, it could throw a serious dent in bd acceptance by j6p/john q public/the masses.

they would have little reason to spend $ on bd anything if their sd dvds could look just/almost as good. and this could further slow down releases of bd catalog titles (maybe even new bd titles) by the studios as they would have less $ incentive to do so.


i

I honestly believe that the economy, gas prices, etc. are hindering BD sales more than anything else. I have a wonderful BD player, and want to see the format succeed, but I haven't lost my perspective over it. I understand why someone wouldn't want to spend $30 on media and $350 MINIMUM on an entry level BD player when the alternative(DVD), when properly upconverted, isn't anywhere near as bad as the enthusiasts here suggest at a fraction of the price. BR is going to have to make a compromise at some point to make price a non-issue(or at least lessen the dramatic price differential) or else BR enthusiasts will always feel threatened by any new tech that enhances DVD resolution to "near" true HD levels. Price is always a deciding factor for the average consumer. As long as DVD has that advantage, it has THE advantage.

I honestly believe that the economy, gas prices, etc. are hindering BD sales more than anything else. I have a wonderful BD player, and want to see the format succeed, but I haven't lost my perspective over it. I understand why someone wouldn't want to spend $30 on media and $350 MINIMUM on an entry level BD player when the alternative(DVD), when properly upconverted, isn't anywhere near as bad as the enthusiasts here suggest at a fraction of the price. BR is going to have to make a compromise at some point to make price a non-issue(or at least lessen the dramatic price differential) or else BR enthusiasts will always feel threatened by any new tech that enhances DVD resolution to "near" true HD levels. Price is always a deciding factor for the average consumer. As long as DVD has that advantage, it has THE advantage.

Well said. You got the right insight.

when properly upconverted, isn't anywhere near as bad as the enthusiasts here suggest at a fraction of the price.

What is "properly converted" and how much does it cost to get that? I've had a number of players that upconvert (Zenith, Toshiba HD DVD player, PS3.. didn't own but have used an Oppo as well, PC software) and after having watched blu-ray and hd dvd, DVD is relatively bad IMO. Of course the price argument is dead on, MSRP is outrageous (I've never paid close to it for a blu-ray or hd dvd). Typically I spend $10-15 for new blu-ray's (probably 95% at that price range).

Sure, some are fine with it, just as some are fine with youtube quality, which I would say is bad compared to DVD, but some might have the opinion that it isn't bad in comparison to DVD. Just a difference of perspective I guess.

Though I am still not happy with Toshiba’s lack of HD DVD aggression and advertisement.

They lost Warner and nearly a billion dollars - how much more aggressive could you expect them to be?

What is "properly converted" and how much does it cost to get that? I've had a number of players that upconvert (Zenith, Toshiba HD DVD player, PS3.. didn't own but have used an Oppo as well, PC software) and after having watched blu-ray and hd dvd, DVD is relatively bad IMO. Of course the price argument is dead on, MSRP is outrageous (I've never paid close to it for a blu-ray or hd dvd). Typically I spend $10-15 for new blu-ray's (probably 95% at that price range).

Sure, some are fine with it, just as some are fine with youtube quality, which I would say is bad compared to DVD, but some might have the opinion that it isn't bad in comparison to DVD. Just a difference of perspective I guess.
Actually it is all in the deinterlacing, but the term that the casual consumer hears the most is upconversion. My bad. But that's besides the point. I've owned/own an Oppo 981, Tosh A30, and a Panny BD30 and I do notice the gap between DVD and BR/HD DVD. But is it enough of a difference to justify the cost? You know my answer, as I have already bought into both HD DVD and Blu Ray. But like I said earlier, it's all about PERSPECTIVE. Heck, I've spent thousands of dollars on both car and home audio but that doesn't mean that I expect everyone else to do the same. Right now, people see my modest yet potent home setup and are impressed by both the PQ and SQ, but that's about it. They won't even think about spending what I spent because they have different priorities, and I can't fault them for that one bit. Those are the people Toshiba is targeting, and if the performance/price is right for this new technology, they WILL get most of them. That is, UNLESS a certain (superior) technology prices it's media/players more competitively.;)

Thanks Hawkfan. Well at this point we don't have nearly enough info to guess on the performance/price. Maybe $50 players, they could sale pretty well. As for how Toshiba marketed HD DVD I'm very curious as to how they'll approach this product if/when it streets the U.S.

Until I can see a moving picture and not a still picture that has been photoshopped with unsharp mask applied I'm not a believer in this technology. And if its so great then why not have it added to blu-ray players? the majority of BD discs can still be improved.

That still doesn't explain the snowman image anomaly. From what you're saying, the background must have been moving, so the algorithm didn't sharpen the background. However, there is no apparent directional motion blur in the background on the left image. Also, this would imply someone was moving the bookcase at the back of the image, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

This image looks like a motionless "still life" to me. From the left image, there is no apparent motion -- all objects are at rest, and the camera is still. If the camera where panning, the entire image would show some directional motion blur. On a still image, any 3D (2D + time) algorithm will sharpen the entire image equally, and you won't get the blurry snowman you see on the right side image.

I disagree "2d+time" will "sharpen" the entire image equally. Items that have the same RELATIVE movement from frame to frame will be "sharpened" equally.

This is probably a frame of a very slow pan. Because objects in the background move slower with respect to the viewer, there is less information to use to "sharpen" the picture.

Look at the apple closest to the viewer. It would have "moved" the most and has the greastest amount of resolution gain. We can see detail in the skin that was not in the original frame, but WAS in an earlier or later frame when we saw the apple from a different angle.

The algorithm probably does not "sharpen" but intelligently adds detail from other frames where it can. The snowman never had the extra detail in other frames because our viewing angle changed (therefore it "moved") very little.

This technology NEEDS movement to work its "magic". No movement, no magic.

"This technology NEEDS movement to work its "magic". No movement, no magic."

Nah, there are little elf's with paint brush's that know where to draw in the extra detail.

BD player is dropping in prices: Walmart has Magnavox BD player for $298 locally and online: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=9864613 and Walmart also had PS3 40gb was on sale for $399 with $100 gift card instantly.

Soon, $200 BD player will be available. Media is also dropping quickly except for the newest releases (even some new release BD can be had for cheap with coupons, 30% Warner Video sales, Deep Discount DVD 20% sales, Amazon BOGO free, etc.).

It baffles me that people would spend hundreds or even thousands on SD-DVD player (or scalers for that matter) no matter how good the PQ improvement is. I say this even though I have over 1500 SD-DVD collection. My $50-100 upconverting SD-DVD players, $100-150 HD-DVD players, or my PS3 all do a good-enough job to upconvert SD-DVDs that there is no need to overspend on SD-DVD players.

My scaler works with HD and SD. That's why I spent the money on it. And with broadcast HD and SD you need all the help you can get to improve the picture. I couple my VP50pro with an ALgolith HDMI flea for my broadcast sources. It makes a huge difference in broadcast HD and SD picture quality.

Polishing a turd and pure marketing (Hi Def SD DVD). Apparently Toshiba still thinks they can win with some other invention nobody will adopt. Upconverting is a buzzward that is a huge step below HD..... I think Toshiba should make Blu Ray players and getting on with HD. DVD is a moribund medium. Blu Ray IS the future. Accept it Toshiba.

Blu-Ray is an interim step to true film quality hi-def, i.e., 4k. Studios are using the 4k standard to archive film, so why anyone would want a format that can only display 1/8th of the resolution of 4k is beyond me. I may be fussy, but I've seen Blu-Ray displayed on 72" TVs and frankly, they don't look so s*** hot!

I'll pass on yet another Sony proprietary format and wait for true hi-def.

Roberta

:confused::confused::rolleyes:

:confused::confused::rolleyes:

This will confuse you more, said "upscaled SD video looks great" go figure :eek:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080114/dg96_15.jpg

There's something fishy about this "demo" image. Assuming some magical algorithm created the image on the right from the SD input image on the left, how did the algorithm sharpen up the entire image except for the snowman in the background? Its still blurry. How did the algorithm know that the snowman was slightly out of focus in the original image?

I don't think you're correct on this one. It is _because_ the snowman is out of focus, that there is no increase in sharpness. Try looking at it closer (I used MS Paint... Whatever, just make sure the software you use don't use some algorithm of its own when zooming). Look at the eyes of the snowman, they have actually been sharpened up a bit, the same with the button. However, in the hat and the "body" of the snowman, there is no detail to enhance, so it will look the same.

However, I fail to see increased detail anywhere in the picture, even artificial detail. All I see is increased sharpness, or perhaps more correctly inter-pixel contrast. Dark pixels are darkened, bright pixels are brigthened. I'm not sure what this picture is meant to show anyway. I will go out on a limb here and say that it's not an actual representation of the scaling algorithm, but a manipulated representation. If not, I need to know what we are comparing the Toshiba upconversion to. If it is supposed to be a different scaling algorithm, I think it's definately manipulated. The actual scaling, aliasing etc look awfully similar in the two pictures, apart from the artificial increase in contrast.

I don't think this is much different than Philips' Pixel Plus system, perhaps in an improved state, but from these pictures this looks like nothing more than pretty simple detail enhancement. However, as I said I'm not sure we should judge Toshiba based on this picture, as I believe it's manipulated marketing stuff, not an actual representation of the technology.

I don't think you're correct on this one. It is _because_ the snowman is out of focus, that there is no increase in sharpness. Try looking at it closer (I used MS Paint... Whatever, just make sure the software you use don't use some algorithm of its own when zooming). Look at the eyes of the snowman, they have actually been sharpened up a bit, the same with the button. However, in the hat and the "body" of the snowman, there is no detail to enhance, so it will look the same.

The snowman was sharpened a little bit, but far less than other blurry parts of the SD image. I understand that some image detail is required for the sharpening to work, and the snowman doesn't have much detail. But the tartan pattern in the background has plenty of detail, and it too is barely sharpened. Why?

The best explanation is that the background was out of focus in the original image on the right, and the image on the left is just a blurred version of the image on the right. Its very easy to go from the right side image to the left image, but not the other way.

Zarono....why do people buy a Benze if Toyota can do the same thing? (get people from pt A to pt B) Why do people buy Ralph Lauren when you can buy for Old Navy for half the price? (they both cover your body, are stylish)...why not buy shoes from Payless when buying shoes for $150 instead? Simple. One is a better quality product. In some ways, lasts longer or doesn't rip, or is more comfortable to ride.

So why wouldn't people pay a little more to get upconvertion player that produces only 120 pixels less than a blu-ray player which costs so much more?

Most people can't tell the difference between a 720p and 1080p/i so do you think J6P would give a crap if BD players had better sound yet the movie costed 3-6 times more?

Also, remember, people are more interested in PQ than SQ. Which is why you see people w/ 1080p tv and not a nice surround sound system w/ it.

So if Toshiba can get me good PQ where I couldn't tell the difference between that and a BD player, why wouldn't I buy that?

There are other points, but I'll skip it for now.

The people who seem to be terribly upset by this Toshiba announcement are Blu-ray zealots left over from the Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD religious wars.

I own a Blu-ray player but I am not one of these zealots.

I also own and use a SD DVD player and will replace it with one of these new Toshibas if they produce a noticeably better picture.

Why? Just look at the Netflix new releases for this week – 167 standard definition DVDs, 5 Blu-rays.

The people who seem to be terribly upset by this Toshiba announcement are Blu-ray zealots left over from the Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD religious wars.

I own a Blu-ray player but I am not one of these zealots.

I also own and use a SD DVD player and will replace it with one of these new Toshibas if they produce a noticeably better picture.

Why? Just look at the Netflix new releases for this week – 167 standard definition DVDs, 5 Blu-rays.

well said! thank you.

The people who seem to be terribly upset by this Toshiba announcement are Blu-ray zealots left over from the Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD religious wars..

Who here is terribly upset?


Pretty much all the blu-ray fans that were vocal during the war are all :D now from what I can tell thanks to getting Paramount titles back as well as improved Universal titles (for those like me that own both).

Who here is terribly upset?


Pretty much all the blu-ray fans that were vocal during the war are all :D now from what I can tell thanks to getting Paramount titles back as well as improved Universal titles (for those like me that own both).
Maybe not TERRIBLY upset, but you have to admit that quite a few of the "usual suspects" have made posts trashing the technology before it even has a chance to be properly evaluated. I'm actually interested in this technology. I thought SD had gone as far as it could go but this does look promising, assuming that the price is right. This should also be good news to those who have HUGE SD libraries. If they could price it under the "rare" Oppo 983, they might have something here.:cool:

Who here is terribly upset?
Pretty much all the blu-ray fans that were vocal during the war are all :D now from what I can tell thanks to getting Paramount titles back as well as improved Universal titles (for those like me that own both).

Maybe not TERRIBLY upset, but you have to admit that quite a few of the "usual suspects" have made posts trashing the technology before it even has a chance to be properly evaluated. I'm actually interested in this technology. I thought SD had gone as far as it could go but this does look promising, assuming that the price is right. This should also be good news to those who have HUGE SD libraries. If they could price it under the "rare" Oppo 983, they might have something here.:cool:

the upset folks arent in this thread (yet) but they (i wont mention names) got a another thread on the same subject shut down about 10 days ago.
they are out there.

something like super upconversion could threaten the acceptance of bd by j6p/john q public/the masses. if this tech works as advertised these folks wont want to spend the money on bd anything. they'll just stay with their sd collections.
that could result in the studios slowing/not releasing bd catalog and other bd titles because there wouldnt be any $ incentive to do so.
:)

Poor, poor Sony. Bought all the studios but just can't sell enough of their overpriced players. AWWWW. I hope Toshiba sticks it to Sony. They deserve it.

The snowman was sharpened a little bit, but far less than other blurry parts of the SD image. I understand that some image detail is required for the sharpening to work, and the snowman doesn't have much detail. But the tartan pattern in the background has plenty of detail, and it too is barely sharpened. Why?

I can't answer that, since I don't agree with you... There is at least the same level of increased sharpness on the pattern in the background as on the snowman. Also, I wouldn't call a pattern like that "plenty of detail". Note that the "sharpness" increase isn't actually sharpening in the normal sense (at least in my opinion, but I'm not sure what the term would apply to in image processing terms). There is no kind of edge enhancement going on, so it does not "sharpen" the lines per se, but the contrast in the picture is increased. Again, take a look at it in closeup, you will see that in the pattern in the background, as well as the rest of the picture, dark pixels are darker, and bright pixels are brighter.

Perhaps I should say increase in gamma instead of increase in contrast, the actual black-to-white contrast of the picture is the same, but the manipulated picture looks like you turned on some kind of "dynamic contrast" processing feature.


The best explanation is that the background was out of focus in the original image on the right, and the image on the left is just a blurred version of the image on the right. Its very easy to go from the right side image to the left image, but not the other way.

Again, look at it closer. The image on the left is not blurred or filtered compared to the one on the right. There is a tiny amount of edge enhancement (I believe I stated earlier that there wasn't, but looking again there is a little bit, most noticable on the bottles imo), but the biggest difference is that each pixel has been either increased or decreased in brightness.

EDIT (again): I'm breaking my own rules here, and over-emphasizing the importance of a screenshot. Anyhoo, the point is, there is no extra detail on the right hand side, it's just a processed version of the left side. I just loaded it into a photo editor, and it's actually pretty simple to make the left picture look very similar to the right picture, no magic at all. However, the biggest gripe I have with this screenshot, is that there is no extra detail whatsoever in the right hand picture. If it was DVD vs. BD, you would, just as an example, be able to read the labelling on the bottles on the BD version (provided that the image is large enough, obviously).

The people who seem to be terribly upset by this Toshiba announcement are Blu-ray zealots left over from the Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD religious wars.

I own a Blu-ray player but I am not one of these zealots.

I also own and use a SD DVD player and will replace it with one of these new Toshibas if they produce a noticeably better picture.

Why? Just look at the Netflix new releases for this week – 167 standard definition DVDs, 5 Blu-rays.

This is not about whether or not Toshiba has made the best DVD player outthere. They may have, and if they do, I'll buy one as well. Any improvement to the playback of DVD is a good thing. However, there are two things that worry me about this technology: 1: It is obviously marketed as a direct alternative to buying a BD player. Whether YOU can see the difference or not, the quality of the upscaled picture will NOT match BD. Not even close. If you feel that you don't gain anything from BD, whether it be because your TV is too small, not good enough, or you just don't care about the increased detail, by all means stick with DVD. As long as I have the possibility of buying into a better product, you can do whatever you like. 2: This claim, "our upscaler is comparable to BD", has been made hundreds of times before. Yet somehow people seem to think that when Toshiba says it, it is somehow magically different than when everyone else makes the same claim. At least in this country, Panasonic just recently made the same claim about a very cheap upscaling DVD player, yet noone seemed to even notice. Why all the fuzz about Toshiba? (I know why, I just want to point out the irony of it).

OK, I realize I run the risk of flooding this thread here, but... Take a look at these screenshots of DVD vs HD (BD or HD DVD, doesn't really matter, this particular one is BD):

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wfu.edu/~yipcw/atg/bd/images/dvd_bd.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wfu.edu/~yipcw/atg/bd/index.htm&h=512&w=585&sz=60&hl=da&start=6&sig2=B9oZhXbAxoV7N6IASTMMRg&um=1&tbnid=RanFZVWluBtscM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=135&ei=fqFgSJWKDZeowQGQmNyZDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddvd%2Bvs%2Bblu-ray%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dda%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:da:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7ADBF%26sa%3DN



Provided that the set is actually capable of reproducing HD detail: How on earth would any upscaling technology, even just in theory, get from the top picture to the bottom picture?


EDIT: Link fixed.

Maybe not TERRIBLY upset, but you have to admit that quite a few of the "usual suspects" have made posts trashing the technology before it even has a chance to be properly evaluated. I'm actually interested in this technology. I thought SD had gone as far as it could go but this does look promising, assuming that the price is right. This should also be good news to those who have HUGE SD libraries. If they could price it under the "rare" Oppo 983, they might have something here.:cool:

Not being optimisit (which many aren't that aren't blu-ray zealots, some even HD DVD zealots) is quite a bit different than being TERRIBLY upset.

Toshiba had a chance to back up their claims when they demo'd the product but they chose to fail (they can change that in the future by doing a true parallel demo). I wouldn't have been hard or expensive to put a HD DVD player when demoing their product.

What they did is the equilivent of claiming to be just as good of a boxer as Mohammed Ali but then inviting us to watch them spar against some no name featherweight.

...
They showed two TVs both displaying the same content, one at standard definition, and one using their upscaling device, and whilst the latter did look more impressive, it would pale in comparison if shown next to a true HD source. Which Toshiba obviously didn't do, as they're no longer endorsing HD DVD and will never support Blu-ray.

After receiving some far from publishable questions and insults from the assembled journalists ("fanciable nonsense" was one of the kinder remarks from a journalist during the Q&A session), the representatives, including Emily Shirley, Head of Product Marketing at Toshiba Europe were obviously getting irate. "Blu-ray is only a storage medium", they retorted, explaining it was not the only way to view high-def content on your TV....

http://techdigest.tv/2008/06/toshiba_controv.html

So do we know when super-upconversion DVD/Blu-ray players are going to be available (especially in the UK)?

Also, is there currently any software available (especially Freeware) that would be able to super-upconvert from SD to HD? I know it would probably take a long time to work - but in theory it could do an even better job than Toshibas (but Toshiba's would work in real time). If done in software you could tell it do look at even more frames than Toshiba does (ie. more than 9) - though the more it looked at the slower it would be I guess.

While Toshiba manufactures the cell processor, I believe any royalties will be split between Toshiba, IBM and of course Sony!

Everyone has their bases covered. Last I checked, Sony, Disney, Warner and Fox had HD movies for rent on Apple TV!

So if SUC re-energizes the DVD market all the content providers will be happy.

OK, I realize I run the risk of flooding this thread here, but... Take a look at these screenshots of DVD vs HD (BD or HD DVD, doesn't really matter, this particular one is BD):

http://*******.com/5b2qxg

Provided that the set is actually capable of reproducing HD detail: How on earth would any upscaling technology, even just in theory, get from the top picture to the bottom picture?

linkee no workee.

what, you gotta toshiba super upconverter you're using to make those shots?
how'dju get one 6 months before tosh puts them on the market?

oh! i see! you're using the tech we have now and not what tosh will be selling.
how can you compare whats available now and what is still in the toshiba labs?
that none of us consumers have seen yet.
:)

Also, is there currently any software available (especially Freeware) that would be able to super-upconvert from SD to HD?

http://www.thedeemon.com/super_resolution/

linkee no workee.

what, you gotta toshiba super upconverter you're using to make those shots?
how'dju get one 6 months before tosh puts them on the market?

oh! i see! you're using the tech we have now and not what tosh will be selling.
how can you compare whats available now and what is still in the toshiba labs?
that none of us consumers have seen yet.
:)

EDIT: Link fixed.

Anyway, what I'm trying to link to are comparisons between DVD and actual HD content, not upscaled content. What I was asking (sorry if my English wasn't clear enough) is how anyone can expect any upscaling technology to provide anywhere near that level of detail. Also, compare the Toshiba screenshot to these grabs in closeup, and you will see that the Toshiba screenshot don't provide any more detail _at all_, only sharpening. Sharper picture and more detail are two very different things, and if you read closely, Toshiba isn't actually claiming more detail, they are claiming sharper pictures, and then somehow stating that this makes it an alternative to actual HD content.

I'm quite happy that the journalists there apparently didn't let them get away with that claim easy.

EDIT: Link fixed.

Anyway, what I'm trying to link to are comparisons between DVD and actual HD content, not upscaled content. What I was asking (sorry if my English wasn't clear enough) is how anyone can expect any upscaling technology to provide anywhere near that level of detail. Also, compare the Toshiba screenshot to these grabs in closeup, and you will see that the Toshiba screenshot don't provide any more detail _at all_, only sharpening. Sharper picture and more detail are two very different things, and if you read closely, Toshiba isn't actually claiming more detail, they are claiming sharper pictures, and then somehow stating that this makes it an alternative to actual HD content.

I'm quite happy that the journalists there apparently didn't let them get away with that claim easy.

Exactly right.

http://www.thedeemon.com/super_resolution/
Thanks.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080114/dg96_15.jpg

If you look at the right bottle label on both images. There is a section of text that is missing from the low rez image that appears on the high rez image. These images are not great references, but it seems to work. It will not be true 1080p resolution, but the idea is that the general public will accept it given that they can keep buying $15 movies and don't need to buy BD movies for $30.

If the player is cheap enough and works as advertised, I would buy it to enhance my current DVD collection. I would rather have BD over these, but I probably will still get most of my movies on DVD, and buy only really good ones on BD due to the $30 price tag. I'm still skeptical about disc media since I've moving my collection to a hard drive when possible.

[IMG]

If you look at the right bottle label on both images. There is a section of text that is missing from the low rez image that appears on the high rez image. These images are not great references, but it seems to work.

You're right, I didn't notice that. What we need to know, however, is what we're actually comparing. I've been thinking of it in the way that the left picture was upscaled to the right picture, but that's not it, obviously they're both 1080P, so it's one upscaling vs another upscaling. That doesn't tell us much if we don't know which upscaling it is compared to. Who knows if, say, an Oppo 983, doesn't give better results than what Toshiba chose to compare to. However, I still say that it doesn't look much different than different scaling algorithms already available. There is a weighting between sharpness and lack of artifacts, that all algorithms take into account. For instance, Lumagen scaling is very free of artifacts like ringing, but appears a bit softer than a lot of other scalers. DVDO scaling is sharper, but introduces a slight amount of ringing. I'm pretty sure that if you compared a Lumagen to a DVDO in the same way, you would have at least the same amount of difference (I realize they are expensive products, but they are the ones I know about, I'm sure the same differences apply to cheaper products).

Look at the bottle in close up. If it was BD, you would not only be able to see that there was some line of text on the bottle, you would actually be able to READ the text. It is in this light that I think that Toshiba's claim that this rivals BD is offendable. Yes, it may be sharper than other upscalers, yes, it may even be the best upscaling technology available, time will tell. But it does not rival BD, or HD DVD for that matter. To claim that it rivals BD to the people who can't tell the difference, is laughable at best.

I actually think there's a lesson in this: "Over-marketing" (not sure what the english term would be). If Toshiba had made a press conference saying that now that they're out of HD DVD, they have spent their ressources building the best available DVD player, to give people higher quality out of their existing DVD collection, AND the DVD's they're going to buy in the future, and deliver this DVD at a very reasonable price, and then delivered a demonstration of the best DVD playback ever - then they would have been applauded by everyone. But they chose to make fools of themselves by stating that it is comparable to BD, and my guess is that the press that was invited was given an invitation that gave the impression of something completely new and "big" (or, perhaps, teasing that Toshiba would introduce BD, by saying something like that they would be introducing some ground-breaking development in the HD world). They are building up the hopes for this upscaling technology so much that it can only dissapoint, no matter how good it is. When it does become available, nobody will notice if it's the best upscaling outthere, that will only be a footnote. The headlines will be that it's not the BD rivalling technology that Toshiba promised it would be.

One trick that is used when upscaling images, texture and grain is used to hold detail that may be blown out when sharpening the image.

Blu-Ray is an interim step to true film quality hi-def, i.e., 4k. Studios are using the 4k standard to archive film, so why anyone would want a format that can only display 1/8th of the resolution of 4k is beyond me. I may be fussy, but I've seen Blu-Ray displayed on 72" TVs and frankly, they don't look so s*** hot!

I'll pass on yet another Sony proprietary format and wait for true hi-def.

Roberta

Every new format is an interim step to something better...

I wonder if studios will ever give consumers 4K titles, but one day they will be looking for another revenue.

EDIT: Link fixed.

Anyway, what I'm trying to link to are comparisons between DVD and actual HD content, not upscaled content. What I was asking (sorry if my English wasn't clear enough) is how anyone can expect any upscaling technology to provide anywhere near that level of detail. Also, compare the Toshiba screenshot to these grabs in closeup, and you will see that the Toshiba screenshot don't provide any more detail _at all_, only sharpening. Sharper picture and more detail are two very different things, and if you read closely, Toshiba isn't actually claiming more detail, they are claiming sharper pictures, and then somehow stating that this makes it an alternative to actual HD content.

I'm quite happy that the journalists there apparently didn't let them get away with that claim easy.

i know what you mean by sharpening and lack of detail. i also have my doubts about s.u.c. but i want to give it a chance; mainly 'cuz i've too many dvds that will never become bds in my lifetime and i want them to look as good as is possible on my 108" screen.

i cant wait to see how s.u.c. 'shakes out'!

I don't think s.u.c. is a good acronym for this technology from a marketing perspective :eek:

Brandon

Here is Wikipedia info on Super Resolution below. Its definitely tech thats been around for years. So Toshiba will not have an exclusive to this tech, but they do own the factory(with IBM) that makes the cell processor capable of doing it realtime. If this takes off, I'm sure Sony will include the software update in PS3 too (since it too has a cell processor).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-resolution

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Super-resolution_example_closeup.png

I think this was already posted before, but I'll post it again.

http://www.thedeemon.com/articles/what_is_super_resolution.html

http://www.thedeemon.com/articles/sr_org_big.jpg
Without Super Resolution Tech.

http://www.thedeemon.com/articles/sr_srsr.jpg
With Super Resolution Tech.

Here is a link to describe when this tech does not work. I won't work on still images because all the frames are the same and the tech can't find any varying details to put into the enhanced resolution frame.

http://www.thedeemon.com/articles/when_super_resolution_doesnt_work.html

Its definitely not better than true 1080P and I do agree that marketing should present stuff honestly, rather than play mind games on the unaware public. With that said, I see a lot of potential in this tech. Its not limited to just DVDs. This tech can be built into a HDTV set and enhance SD TV and even non-heavily compressed HD TV content to add more detail. It can upscale AppleTV 720P resolution to something better, older video game systems, or even BD movies to those 2560 x 1600 monitors. Its actually technology that can be applied to any video footage, not just SD DVD. But of course Toshiba's main goal would be to hurt BD, so I don't know if we'll see it implemented in HDTV sets for a while.

But of course Toshiba's main goal would be to hurt BD

Toshiba's main goal is to make money.

Toshiba's main goal is to make money.

I think that's partially true; but I also think there are some huge egos and people with (too much?) pride at Toshiba that are willing to spend money to prove a (some?) point to BDA and Sony. Never underestimate the ability of certain corporate executives to damage their company.

Its actually technology that can be applied to any video footage, not just SD DVD.
Though it can be applied to any video footage, the problem I see is that depending on the type of video footage (and the amount of compression), as stated in the previously linked article, it may not give much improvement to the video at all.

ie. some very good SD content will have been recorded on a tripod, and if this is the case, and the camera isn't moving, and the people/objects in the scene aren't moving much, it won't improve much (it may improve the resolution of the people/objects who are moving but it won't improve the resolution of the actual background details, like the set/none-moving objects).

I suppose it's going to help most where there is constant (but not too fast) camera motion.

Also, according to
http://www.thedeemon.com/articles/video_upsize_methods_comparison.html

the up-conversion using super resolution, as shown by their figures, doesn't seem that much better than the other, more normal up-conversion methods.

ie. out of 100 (the HD image they're trying to upscale to), on one test:
* 4x zoom gives a signal to noise ratio of 34
* Bicubic resampling gives 38
* Super Upconversion (the "Video Enhancer" one) gives 40

So to me, according to that test, unless I'm mis-understanding it, super upconversion doesn't seem to give very much better up-conversion (or signal to noise ratio) than Bicubic Resampling? (actually the sample images in that page do look better for SUC but based on the numerical figures they give, the actual differences don't seem that much).

Yeah, its definitely not realistic to expect 1080P performance from 480p/i content. It might be more realistic to say that we might be seeing a solution that can compete with HD 720p content. But as long as they can go to 720P or more, they can claim that this algorithm can make you SD DVD into HD DVD :)

Some interesting information has appeared recently

First, Japanese site Impress Watch has tested SRT on a Qosmio:

Original (http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080710/rt061.htm)

Google translation (http://translate.google.com.br/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fav%2Fdocs %2F20080710%2Frt061.htm&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=pt-BR&ie=UTF-8)

Video files:

HDV (http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20071114/dr.m2t)

DVD (http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080710/source.vob)

Upconversion mode 1 (http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080710/uc1.m2t)

Upconversion mode 2 (http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080710/uc2.m2t)


Second, areadvd has a news article: IFA: first Toshiba LCD TVs with Cell processor (http://www.areadvd.de/news/2008/07/09/ifa-toshiba-lcd-tv-cell-prozessor-resolution/)

1. Terminology

The official Toshiba name for its image processing is now to be called Resolution+.


2. Hardware

Resolution+ will be executed by a CELL processor.


3. Devices

Resolution+ will be included in the new models for Toshiba's ZF PictureFrame line (previously discussed on this thread (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=665723) on British forum avforums).

So far no DVD players with Resolution+ have been announced.


4. How Resolution+ works

"Resolution +" image processing depends on the image content and consists of three steps.

Firstly, the picture is divided in several areas, according to three picture categories: "highly detailed", "sharp-edged" and "dark and non-detailed".

Secondly, each of these areas is processed. For "highly detailed" areas, a computing algorithm calculates the finer details. "Sharp-edged" areas are smoothed. Dark areas as well as those that have scarce detail undergo no picture processing in order to avoid unnecessary video noise.

Finally, artifacts that the calculation process may have caused are corrected.

Source: areadvd (http://www.areadvd.de/news/2008/07/09/ifa-toshiba-lcd-tv-cell-prozessor-resolution/)

Thanks Grubert.

Well so much for thier claim.. confirmed 100% Bull S*** from Toshiba.

Still might be nice for some displays to use for SD channels, a little help is better than nothing.. maybe.

Yeah, its definitely not realistic to expect 1080P performance from 480p/i content. It might be more realistic to say that we might be seeing a solution that can compete with HD 720p content. But as long as they can go to 720P or more, they can claim that this algorithm can make you SD DVD into HD DVD :)

From the single comparison screenshot it looks like the effect is pretty substantial. The improvement is more than marginal.

Getting 720p like look from a DVD would be a significant breakthrough. Apple TV HD for instance is 720p. having viewed Apple TV HD, Cable HD, Blu Ray (and HD DVD) on screens from 47 inch to 60 inch (most recent) - 8ft to 12 ft viewing distance (with the 60 inch display being the closest!) that there isn't a whole lot of difference between a Blu Ray and Apple TV version - not unless one is doing a stop frame A-B comparison. For most people, if they can drop in a $5.99 DVD and get it to look like Apple TV HD even Cable HD movies it would be sufficient to not want to pay $29.99 and up for the Blu Ray version.

IF their algorithm works, then this chip could be used by lots of different SD source components.

Remember the value of DVD is that it is widely available and it takes a few minutes to rip it to a hard-drive. If I could get 720p look out of it, it would be a big breakthrough.

The PS3 with all their firmware upgrades is an excellent example of what even G1 cell processor can do. Toshiba has a powerful tool in their hands (excuse the pun) :D

I actually think there's a lesson in this: "Over-marketing" (not sure what the english term would be). If Toshiba had made a press conference saying that now that they're out of HD DVD, they have spent their ressources building the best available DVD player, to give people higher quality out of their existing DVD collection, AND the DVD's they're going to buy in the future, and deliver this DVD at a very reasonable price, and then delivered a demonstration of the best DVD playback ever - then they would have been applauded by everyone. But they chose to make fools of themselves by stating that it is comparable to BD, and my guess is that the press that was invited was given an invitation that gave the impression of something completely new and "big" (or, perhaps, teasing that Toshiba would introduce BD, by saying something like that they would be introducing some ground-breaking development in the HD world). They are building up the hopes for this upscaling technology so much that it can only dissapoint, no matter how good it is. When it does become available, nobody will notice if it's the best upscaling outthere, that will only be a footnote. The headlines will be that it's not the BD rivalling technology that Toshiba promised it would be.

Who this benefits is the leverage that studios will have when negotiating their Blu Ray replication deals. Many consumers already believe that an upconverting DVD player IS an HD DVD player!

As for disappointing, who are they going to disappoint? the press? People will be impressed IF the technology even gets close to Blu Ray.

Going from SD DVD to HD DVD is an improvement. Going from SD DVD to upconverting SD signal to HDMI is also an improvement. With a sub $100 upconverting player playing all DVDs I have already owned is a huge convenient. So, as a Joe sixpacks, I don't care the small difference between Upconverted and the HD quality. I will continue to buy good SD DVDs and there is no impulse buying of a BD player yet! Probably will never buy one if BDs and BD player are not at the same price ranges of SD DVDs and upconverting players. I am quite contented with my recent purchase of a Philips DVP3992/37 upconverting 1080P DVD player and BD player price is far from $50 a set!

This super upconverting player will not interested me a bit if the price above $100!

No matter how good it is, it isnt the picture the movie studio intended you to see. That has got to be lurking in your mind even as you watch the movie.

No matter how good it is, it isnt the picture the movie studio intended you to see. That has got to be lurking in your mind even as you watch the movie.

I suppose it could be said that the movie studio "intended" us to see the "picture" projected on a screen via a film projector in a theater. If this is true, then I suppose it could be said that they didn't intend us to see the picture via a videotape, a standard definition DVD upscaled or not, an HD-DVD, a Blu-ray DVD, etc., because they all compromise the original picture.

However, when watching a movie, none of this has EVER "lurked" in my mind - not once.

I can't believe some of the reactions on this thread. Toshiba should be doing everything it can to keep its revenue streams coming in. I am pretty sure they will make more money thru dvd than blu-ray. It is not their responsibility to make sure blu-ray is adopted quickly. Hopefully, the competition will force blu-ray manufacturers to stay on their toes and do everything they can to get to mass market faster. Once Toshiba rings out every dollar they can from dvd, then they can move to blu-ray.

Anything that applies downward price pressure and gives Sony problems is a good thing. Sony took away a better more reasonably priced format by simply buying the studios. Some of you may think that is just business regardless it wasn't right and it wasn't best for the consumer.

Anything that applies downward price pressure and gives Sony problems is a good thing. Sony took away a better more reasonably priced format by simply buying the studios. Some of you may think that is just business regardless it wasn't right and it wasn't best for the consumer.

I'm surprised people still write crap like this.

Brandon

I'm surprised people still write crap like this.

Brandon

LOL, got to love people rewriting history. Well I'll enjoy the best :D fine by me if they want SUC quality video :p

Both of you are obviously clueless to what went down and probably think someone buying the format regardless of which one was more consumer friendly or reasonably priced is just fine. BR is in no way a better format than HD-DVD was. No rewriting or editing necessary.....what Sony did was wrong. You want to disagree fine but don't be a dick. No one appreciates it.
Oh and BTW thousands of posts does not equal knowledge and certainly haven't taught you any manners. Have a nice day, both of you.

Both of you are obviously clueless to what went down and probably think someone buying the format regardless of which one was more consumer friendly or reasonably priced is just fine. BR is in no way a better format than HD-DVD was. No rewriting or editing necessary.....what Sony did was wrong. You want to disagree fine but don't be a dick. No one appreciates it.
Oh and BTW thousands of posts does not equal knowledge and certainly haven't taught you any manners. Have a nice day, both of you.

I find it a bit humorous and ironic that you call us clueless. You're still regurgitating format war FUD and rhetoric from late 2007/early 2008. That's a shame...but what's worse is you actually believe it.

Brandon

I find it a bit humorous and ironic that you call us clueless. You're still regurgitating format war FUD and rhetoric from late 2007/early 2008. That's a shame...but what's worse is you actually believe it.

Brandon

Exactly right.

I also find complaints about buying studios amusing when Paramount was paid off to drop blu-ray when the vast majority of early adopters were supporting it over HD DVD. But you are right, same old FUD from another Sony hater.

I have a toshiba A2... It a piece of garbage. PS3, one of the best designed consumer electronics ever made.

I have a toshiba A2... It a piece of garbage. PS3, one of the best designed consumer electronics ever made.

Agreed 100%, my PS3 is an amazing device. Great blu-ray movie player even though it is first gen and top of the line gaming :D

I've got an HD-A3 (3rd gen) and I feel about the same as your A2.. It is more frustrating to use than anyting. Slow as hell and freezes, error codes on most my HD DVD's (about 20) Sure when it works HD-DVD's are a nice upgrade from DVD, still doesn't match up to the PS3 though even when it is working properly. No 108024p, no DTS MA.. At least it was inexpensive and not just cheap, I'd be bitter if I bought it when it was first launched at full price.

http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2008/07/03/toshiba-unveils-cell-processor-laptops-with-super-upconversion/

http://www.fareastgizmos.com/computing/toshiba_qosmio_g50_and_qosmio_f40_series_notebooks_launched_ in_japan.php

http://www.hometheatermag.com/news/081508toshiba/


Toshiba Shows Smarter DVD Player

By Mark Fleischmann

August 15, 2008 — Toshiba showed a DVD player with advanced upconverting capabilities yesterday, following through on an idea mentioned by its CEO five months ago in the wake of HD DVD's demise.

The XDE-E500 DVD player "is not a Blu-ray killer," said the Toshiba executive who ran the demo.

What is it, then? XDE stands for eXtended Definition Enhancement and consists of three circuits. Their names are familiar, because they resemble ordinary TV controls, but that is misleading, because they are more sophisticated than ordinary TV controls.

The "sharp" mode intelligently analyzes the scene and applies edge enhancement only where needed, so you might see more detail in a garment, but not more noise in clouds. The press release describes it as "one step closer to high definition."

"Contrast" takes a similar approach to improving detail in dark scenes. In the example I was shown it worked on foreground objects while leaving backgrounds untouched. The "color" mode pumps blue and green and is intended for outdoor scenes—it was the one I found least convincing.

Do home theater buffs need this product? It's certainly no substitute for the true high-def picture of Blu-ray (or HD DVD, for that matter). But if you've got a small high-def-capable bedroom set, say a 32-incher, and don't want to shell out for a Blu-ray player in every room of the house, this product might be a viable option. The price is $149.99—more than a cheap DVD player, but a lot less than entry-level Blu-ray models at $399—and the product will ship next week.


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=pt-BR&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://www.cinemotion.biz/noticia_detalle.php%3Fid%3D720%26ccat_n%3D0


http://www.abt.com/photos/36286.html

http://w

Do home theater buffs need this product? It's certainly no substitute for the true high-def picture of Blu-ray (or HD DVD, for that matter). But if you've got a small high-def-capable bedroom set, say a 32-incher, and don't want to shell out for a Blu-ray player in every room of the house, this product might be a viable option. The price is $149.99—more than a cheap DVD player, but a lot less than entry-level Blu-ray models at $399—and the product will ship next week.

[url]http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=pt-BR&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://www.cinemotion.biz/noticia_detalle.php%3Fid%3D720%26ccat_n%3D0


http://www.abt.com/photos/36286.html
the burning question to be answered is:
how does the pq and aq compare to players like the:

oppo 983,
tosh xa2,
onkyo hd805
some denon units? not sure re these.

currently the best sd players. afaik.

We should have answers to the questions in Westgate's post very soon. It seems that the unit is being released today. I don't think anyone has it in stock yet but I would not be surprised to see it available very soon. The MSP of $150 seems high for a standard DVD player. I would love to know what chips they are using to do their "magic."

Includes 1080p/24 support for SD-DVDs. Musta copped that ability from their last gen of HD-DVD players. Did anyone who used 1080p/24 for SD-DVDs find it worked well?

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/08-18-2008/0004868869&EDATE=

The real value here is for people who still use DVD. Which represents around 90 percent. I can see some vendors embedding this with Blu Ray players for a product that excels at all types of optical formats.

On my HTPC depending upon the quality of the DVD the Nvidia decoder already renders a near HD picture quality. If this is any better, folks like my wife won't be able to tell the difference on a 60 inch display from 9 ft away.

This may force the BDA to add managed copy to the format! I wish :)

I am wondering if they will be using the same ABT chip as Oppo uses in its 983 model. They did use ABT chips in their HD players. They could also be using a Reon chip though I would doubt it. Another possibility is that they are using a combination of chips including one designed by Toshiba themselves.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/news/081508toshiba/


The "sharp" mode intelligently analyzes the scene and applies edge enhancement only where needed, so you might see more detail in a garment, but not more noise in clouds. The press release describes it as "one step closer to high definition."





No thanx... SD dvds are littered with EE as is.


We should have answers to the questions in Westgate's post very soon. It seems that the unit is being released today. I don't think anyone has it in stock yet but I would not be surprised to see it available very soon. The MSP of $150 seems high for a standard DVD player. I would love to know what chips they are using to do their "magic."

Its supposed to be modified Cell processor out of the ps3.

The real value here is for people who still use DVD. Which represents around 90 percent.


More like 99%. At $150 will be a niche premium product for Toshiba - few consumers wanting SD DVD will pay an extra $90 for this slight PQ improvement. But I would expect street prices to hit $100 or less by Christmas, and if it works as well as advertised, and especially if Toshiba licenses it to other DVD makers, it could be the nail in the coffin for Blu-Ray, which is already showing signs of being a dud in the overall consumer marketplace.

More like 99%. At $150 will be a niche premium product for Toshiba - few consumers wanting SD DVD will pay an extra $90 for this slight PQ improvement. But I would expect street prices to hit $100 or less by Christmas, and if it works as well as advertised, and especially if Toshiba licenses it to other DVD makers, it could be the nail in the coffin for Blu-Ray, which is already showing signs of being a dud in the overall consumer marketplace.

Exactly, the Bluray market is really, really feeble. I have hopes it will pick up, but the only thing I hear out of all the 'regular' people I talk to including family, friends, or random people in stores are:
-It's not as big a leap as from vhs to dvd
-It's not worth $30 for a movie (most people won't shop amazon/etc for discs)
-They don't want to rebuy movies (I know..this argument irks me every time)
-The players are priced far too high (a reasonable argument)
and the ever popular favorite
-DVD is 'good enough'

If 'good enough' can be noticeably better with a low priced player upgrade, Blu is in deep shyt.

(I have a PS3, please, don't flame me).

Laserdisk never caught on but was around 10+ years. To most people dvd is good enough, if bluray never becomes mainstream thats fine with me.

BTW amazon has it in stock, 179 dollars!

I'm amazed at how out of touch with reality some of you guys can be.

"nail in the coffin" and "deep shyt"...really?

Brandon

I'm amazed at how out of touch with reality some of you guys can be.

"nail in the coffin" and "deep shyt"...really?

Brandon

Yet you offer no solid reason as to WHY we are 'out of touch with reality'.

Laserdisk never caught on but was around 10+ years. To most people dvd is good enough, if bluray never becomes mainstream thats fine with me.

BTW amazon has it in stock, 179 dollars!
I just got a feeling that bluray will just still be niche product and will never be mainstream.

I just got a feeling that bluray will just still be niche product and will never be mainstream.

majority of america is still on tube tv's and watch movies using tv speakers. Blu rays is for HT enthusiast, who demands the best PQ & SQ. Blu ray movies are so much of a better experience than SD dvds and with most new releases coming out in that format, I hardly ever watch SD anymore.

BTW, I use blockbuster online and never had problems renting new blurays.

Yet you offer no solid reason as to WHY we are 'out of touch with reality'.

When said reasoning has been offered a thousand times and the facts are there to support it, the burden of proof swings to the poster suggesting an established product is going to have the nail in the coffin delivered to it soon.

I find it just a tad funny that the Toshiba rep goes out of his way to state this is not going to be a "blu-ray killer," but people in this thread still seem to think so. :)

Brandon

It will sell.. Toshiba has a good fan base of loyal customers out there, who don't care for the BD or even HDDVD players. Just about all the retailers out there sell Toshiba. If your not in the HT Game or even much as read some form of HT publication you have not heard of "OPPO DVD Players". So I say let the games begin again. You don't have to upgrade any of your gear (AVR) to get the new codecs (HBR) TrueHD, DTS-HD MA and all that stuff... Can you really hear the difference is it night and day :rolleyes: don't think so.. WE ALL FALL FOR IT! Hdmi 1.0,1.1,1.2,1.2a,1.3,1.3a Profile 1.0,1.1,2.0 you get the point. **** THAT :mad: I'm a fan of "OPPO Players" I'm running the 970. I'm also a fan of the HDDVD Camp as well as the BD Camp (A1,A3,p1000,10A). I still have my LD player hooked up :eek: wow okay I'm an HT JUNKIE..;) :D

Steve

So here is the average Joe view of things:

I agree with tutelary on this one. The WOW factor is just not there with Blu-Ray. I have a Samsung 52" with a philips up-convert dvd player. I also have a HTPC with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD's connected via HDMI from my ATI Radeon 3450. I have an Xbox 360 and have downloaded 720p content on it as well. My point is this:

I have all the media formats that you could possibly throw at a TV. I have HD *.mkv files that I have downloaded, I have HD *.wmv downloads. I have Xbox 360 HD content, I have Blu-Ray movies and I have HD-DVD movies. I also have a ton of regular DVD titles.

I bought Mission Impossible II on Blu-Ray and I already owned the series in DVD. To do a test I played both and would switch between DVD and Blu-Ray. The difference is so slight that I vowed to not purchase Blu-Ray discs anymore. The Blu-Ray movie is more clear, but not significantly clearer then the standard DVD and the "watchability" of the movie was overall the same. I sit 7 - 8 feet away from my 52" set, so I don't I'm sitting too far away to judge things. The wife can't really tell the difference and I have had friends over who thought we were watching HD movies when I had regular DVD's playing.

Yeah, I know the math doesn't add up. Blu-Ray is 6 times better blah blah blah. DVD movies look great to me and I think more people are starting to decide that just like I did. They go out and purchase a Blu-Ray player or a PS3 and buy a few movies only to find out that the experience is not all that different then what they already had with DVD's. If I had to sit 3 inches from the TV maybe then I could get the WOW factor, but for the average person who sits 7 - 10 feet away I think the current crop of TV's and Up-converting DVD's have narrowed the gap. I'm not purchasing another Blu-Ray disc so at least one person is not forwarding the Blu-Ray camp song.

$150 for a slight improvement over bargain upscalers, holy crap!! No thanks. I paid less for my POS HD DVD player and that was packaged with 10 movies.

At least the way Toshiba prices to move players, that means they should drop to $30 in about a year and including a few movies ;)

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/08/18/toshiba-stubbornly-launches-the-un-blu-ray-xd-e500-dvd-player/

Toshiba stubbornly launches the un-Blu-ray, XD-E500 DVD player

..
Unfortunately, the player demonstrated offered just "subtle but noticeable sharpening of the image" when compared side-by-side (in a controlled demonstration) with an unnamed $70 upscaler..



LMFAO at the nail in the coffin for blu-ray comment :-0

I bought Mission Impossible II on Blu-Ray and I already owned the series in DVD. To do a test I played both and would switch between DVD and Blu-Ray. The difference is so slight that I vowed to not purchase Blu-Ray discs anymore. The Blu-Ray movie is more clear, but not significantly clearer then the standard DVD and the "watchability" of the movie was overall the same. I sit 7 - 8 feet away from my 52" set, so I don't I'm sitting too far away to judge things. The wife can't really tell the difference and I have had friends over who thought we were watching HD movies when I had regular DVD's playing.



considering IM2 was one of the first blu rays and didn't get a proper remaster, its a bad movie to test with. The PQ reviews were not great, should have tried a new movie. Remember blu rays are only gonna look good as their sources. On my 60inch SXRD, blu rays are far superior to the dvd counter parts.