Panasonic just announced their 500GB HDD Blu-Ray recorder (DMR-BW500)!
The Aussies will be the first to get a taste of it...lucky dingoes. I wonder if we'll ever get to see something like this in the U.S. mkt.
http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php/taxid;2136213042;pid;5690;pt;1

Finally, some GOOD news on the U.S. $ value and what it'll buy... if we had these here, instead of AU$2299, we'd have to pay ONLY US$2199! :)

Despite the super high price tag (which will only come down in time), I think it's a HUGE step in the right direction that they have a Blu-ray recorder WITH a Hard Drive.

Here are a couple of things that I hope it will be able to do:

Record to regular DVD's in a standard definition.
Record standard definition to Blu-ray discs (imagine what you could fit on ONE disc).

Of course it will have High Def recording abilities, but for things like TV shows it might be kind of cool to put a complete season on one Blu-ray disc, in standard def, in beautiful quality.

I sure hope they come to America...and of course...get cheaper.

According to the specs, you can record two different programs from its dual tuner output and you can also record it simultaneously to two sources (disc and HDD) and watch a different (3rd) program on t.v....I'm sold - big time!

It's hard to tell from the pics, but I don't see any high def inputs (only HDMI and component out).

As pointed out here a couple of days ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13966951#post13966951), this and similar models, with HDDs up to 1 TB, are already available in Japan. The 250 GB model goes for about $880 there, so the Australian price sure seems steep.

But, realistically, what do you think the chances are we'll see some of these in North America?

Its doubtful we will see these in North America, probably not even in Canada: the price is too steep and the US-based Hollywood studios would go ballistic if anyone tried to import a consumer unit that easily records in HD. Any of you remember the fate of DVHS? Overpriced hardware, overpriced blank media, and suffocating DRM restrictions are the recipe for a DOA format. And compared to recordable BluRay, recordable DVD seems as easy to use as a cassette tape- they're different animals.

Don't forget, there was a dramatic shift in US price resistance recently, even before the economic downturn. Something in the American mindset became utterly hostile to any consumer electronic item priced above $300, the sole exceptions being game systems and large flat-panel displays (even there, Sony loses a fortune on every PlayStation it sells and sales of "premium" wall displays nosedived a year ago, plunging Pioneer Kuro execs over their balconies). Australians and Europeans will hock the family farm to buy this stuff and not think twice, the Japanese consumer mindlessly buys any new toy that contains a microchip, but even the wealthiest Americans now just say "no".

Imagine Sony trying to sell $1299 Betamaxes in the US today: the vcr concept would die a swift death before VHS ever got off the ground to compete. Yet 30 years ago, thats what a VCR cost, and nobody blinked. Prices didn't break the $500 barrier for years, but that didn't stop USA consumers from buying every one that was imported. Now they would shrug and walk away. Go figure.

lets say that even if it makes it in the states, the amount of DRM restrictions is gonna kill it for everyone.

It's hard to tell from the pics, but I don't see any high def inputs (only HDMI and component out).I would of imagine that the 'SCART' IN/OUT are digital transfers.

A previous poster, CitiBear, mentioned the prices US consumers used to pay for the newest in video equipment. The first Sony Betamaxes, around 1973, had the Beta recorder built into a Sony 19" (I think) color TV. The price tag was over $2,000, really big money in 1973, the price of a stripped Plymouth Duster. VHS tape recorders went for $700 in 1975, with only two speeds (no EP/SLP speed) with wired remotes.

Around 1987, Sony was selling a limited production model 40" CRT to celebrate 40 years in the business. This TV sold for $10,000. It weighed so much the buyer had to make sure the floor joists could take the load. Just like later big screen CRT TVs, there was a control in the back of the set to turn on a degausser, the TV was affected by the earth's magnetic field (or so Sony said).

I don't think it is so bad that buyers in the USA do not want to spring for the big bucks to buy top end innovative electronics. You now have a choice, a full tank of gas or those electronic video toys the Japanese companies make.

I suppose if you really wanted to, you could import a Japanese model. Perhaps not many people know this but unlike Australia which is PAL, Japan uses the NTSC color system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Color_encoding), although its TV frequencies are a bit different, starting at around North America's channel 7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_channel_frequencies). I don't know what HD channels a Japanese tuner would pull in. And from a line in, either DV, component or HDMI(?), I suppose you could for example save true HD to the HDD and burn it as Blu-ray.

This would be for the dedicated enthusiast only, for sure, but I remember bringing back from Japan a JVC walkman with AM/FM radio, cassette and B&W TV in 1988 (it only picked up TV channels 7 and above here), as well as a Sharp 100" LCD home video projector in 1993 which worked fine with my NTSC sources here. Even a Hitachi video camera I bought in Akihabara in 1987 always produced fully compatible NTSC VHS tapes which have always played fine in any North American machine. The only thing you need is a voltage converter when you plug it into the wall here because Japanese AC is 100V/50Hz.

The prices are coming down rapidly - when the first BR recorder was announced just over a year ago it was $3000 in Japan. With HD-DVD out of the way and second tier companies making BR products the prices will come down fast. Sub $300 BR players will be the norm before the end of the year and recorders under $500 by end of next year. HDD models from tier 1 companies will be expensive for a while but downward price pressure will make them "affordable" in a couple of years. There's not much difference between a Philips 3576 HDD DVDr ($250) and a BR recorder with HDD besides the drive and a bit of circuitry.

Maybe this is why Panasonic is not offering an SD DVDr w/HDD in the US - they plan to skip directly to a BR based unit?

There also is the question of longevity. I bought my Sony 32" TV in 1992 for $1800. A lot of money back then but it has run without failure or need of repair for the last 16 years. I have a pair of Sony VCR's 10 & 8 years old which still work perfectly and are still used as "conflict" recorders to back up my E-85.

Today the consumer expects (and usually gets) no more than 2-3 years life out of current electronics. It either outright breaks and is not worth fixing or the latest and greatest has come out that they gotta have. How many of us have gotten used to replacing a perfectly good cell phone for free every two years, just by renewing our contract. Given that, I'm no more intersted than the next guy in spending big bucks on something not expected to last.

Price <--> quality -- it's a real chicken <--> egg situation.

I would of imagine that the 'SCART' IN/OUT are digital transfers.

SCART is an analog connection, which does not even support progressive scan. It for sure will not work for anything digital.

Its doubtful we will see these in North America, probably not even in Canada: the price is too steep and the US-based Hollywood studios would go ballistic if anyone tried to import a consumer unit that easily records in HD. Any of you remember the fate of DVHS? Overpriced hardware, overpriced blank media, and suffocating DRM restrictions are the recipe for a DOA format. And compared to recordable BluRay, recordable DVD seems as easy to use as a cassette tape- they're different animals.

Don't forget, there was a dramatic shift in US price resistance recently, even before the economic downturn. Something in the American mindset became utterly hostile to any consumer electronic item priced above $300, the sole exceptions being game systems and large flat-panel displays (even there, Sony loses a fortune on every PlayStation it sells and sales of "premium" wall displays nosedived a year ago, plunging Pioneer Kuro execs over their balconies). Australians and Europeans will hock the family farm to buy this stuff and not think twice, the Japanese consumer mindlessly buys any new toy that contains a microchip, but even the wealthiest Americans now just say "no".

Imagine Sony trying to sell $1299 Betamaxes in the US today: the vcr concept would die a swift death before VHS ever got off the ground to compete. Yet 30 years ago, thats what a VCR cost, and nobody blinked. Prices didn't break the $500 barrier for years, but that didn't stop USA consumers from buying every one that was imported. Now they would shrug and walk away. Go figure.

I am not sure what suffocating DRM you are talking about with DVHS. I have 4 decks and record a lot. The only prohibition is that most cable tv channels are copy once, so you can't make another copy. It is called 5C protection amd that is what is used on those Blu-ray recorders. BTW, there is more restrictions in Japan than in US. Even OTA in Japan is only copy once, unlike here where you can make unlimited copies.

I suppose if you really wanted to, you could import a Japanese model. Perhaps not many people know this but unlike Australia which is PAL, Japan uses the NTSC color system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Color_encoding), although its TV frequencies are a bit different, starting at around North America's channel 7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_channel_frequencies). I don't know what HD channels a Japanese tuner would pull in. And from a line in, either DV, component or HDMI(?), I suppose you could for example save true HD to the HDD and burn it as Blu-ray.

This would be for the dedicated enthusiast only, for sure, but I remember bringing back from Japan a JVC walkman with AM/FM radio, cassette and B&W TV in 1988 (it only picked up TV channels 7 and above here), as well as a Sharp 100" LCD home video projector in 1993 which worked fine with my NTSC sources here. Even a Hitachi video camera I bought in Akihabara in 1987 always produced fully compatible NTSC VHS tapes which have always played fine in any North American machine. The only thing you need is a voltage converter when you plug it into the wall here because Japanese AC is 100V/50Hz.


I have Japanese model with 250GB HDD BW700. Tuner is useless outside of Japan as they use ISDB standard not compatible with anything else in the world. However I use firewire connection and record from OTA and cable TV thru my Mitsubishi LCD with firewire connections.



The problem with DMR-BW5000, which is also out in Japan is that it has no firewire. You can only record form internal tuners.

However I use firewire connection and record from OTA and cable TV thru my Mitsubishi LCD with firewire connections.




Hi! sorry a bit OT, but how do you record from the LCD to the recorder? Does the LCD output AV signal and thru what port? TIA.

Apparently, the Mitsubishi LCD has a firewire output. Model # of the panel would be nice. I see the LT-4260 has two firewire digital outputs.

Hi! sorry a bit OT, but how do you record from the LCD to the recorder? Does the LCD output AV signal and thru what port? TIA.


IEEE 1394, which is called firewire.

Apparently, the Mitsubishi LCD has a firewire output. Model # of the panel would be nice. I see the LT-4260 has two firewire digital outputs.

Model is LT-46131.

lets say that even if it makes it in the states, the amount of DRM restrictions is gonna kill it for everyone.

Since OTA is prevented from having copy restrictions, it seems to me something like this for OTA recordings could be reasonable.

It *seems* to me that with the changeover to digital, people are actually becoming more likely to go OTA only.. or at least they're thinking about its viability. (Combined with something like netflix for movies.)

(Heck, I was the one who got cable in our house, but even I have thought of trying OTA only.)

lets say that even if it makes it in the states, the amount of DRM restrictions is gonna kill it for everyone.

Or kill it, period.

http://www.retrothing.com/2006/05/whatever_happen.html

I predict that Jack Valenti will rise from the dead to stop it.

Since OTA is prevented from having copy restrictions, it seems to me something like this for OTA recordings could be reasonable. A current condition that could easily be corrected. All has been quiet on the broadcast-flag front. The second an affordable blu-ray recorder for OTA hits the shore, that battle will be renewed. Congress, likes entertainment conglomerate money so don't expect much of a struggle.

Speaking with a Panasonic technical advisor today, my last question was, "when will Panasonic bring out more hard drive units for the U.S. market?" He said after the analog to digital transition in Feb. '09. He mentioned Panasonic already has a Blu-Ray hard drive model in production for some markets but is expensive, but prices will come down for the average consumer.....We'll see.

I asked the same question of LiteOn and they told me never. Maybe many makers are waiting for the analog shutdown for some reason - to not have to put in any NTSC tuner/analog circuitry? That can't be it.

Yeah, ntsc functionality seems like a minor obstacle, to me. Seems like they should be able to just throw an analog tuner in there w/o a 2nd thought, by today's tech standards. The analog circuitry still needs to be in there, regardless of the 2009 date, if these recorders will have any video inputs available for use.

I asked the same question of LiteOn and they told me never. Maybe many makers are waiting for the analog shutdown for some reason - to not have to put in any NTSC tuner/analog circuitry? That can't be it.

Actually, now that you put it that way, that could be *exactly* it! Aside from the fact the mfrs can't sell the damn things in the USA in quantities and at prices to make a profit, the second biggest deterrent to US sales is the real or imagined threat of TiVO lawsuits. Apparently the implementation of the copy-inhibit flag in analog broadcasts is too unpredictable to get them thru a lawsuit, but after the transition a DVD recorder with HDD *that completely obeys* a digital ATSC/QAM copy-inhibit system might be defensible against TiVO. One could argue that TiVO, being a closed system without removable media, allows everything to be timeshifted, while the ATSC DVD/HDD recorder can be shut down by any program that is copy-protected, limiting its functionality and crippling it quite a bit compared to TiVO. The CE mfrs could almost claim it is a distinct product that just happens to have a hard drive.

Who knows. Personally I don't think anyone but Phillips is going to bother with HDD machines in the US until the Blu Ray recorder becomes viable as a mainstream offering. For Blu Ray, mfrs might have a pretty strong argument that the discs need to be "assembled" on an HDD before burning, that burning direct to Blu Ray media in a home entertainment configuration is problematic? We'll see.

I was wandering through the internet and noticed an Aussie store offering the BW500 for $1899, around $1840 US. Some top-line BR players are around $1K so I don't see the BW500 as "crazy" pricing, relatively of course.

As far as time-shifting via TiVo or BR-DVD's, it's simply a matter of when to put up the cash to bargain/fight with the studios. As long as a consumer does not sell recordings it should be as it's always been. SONY, being in the movie and consumer electronics business complicates things a bit...I could see them encoding movies so their BR recorders allow recording of any of their own movies or shows making their BR recorders somewhat more appealing.

I'll be very surprised if there is no BR recorder available in the US by next summer. It's just too attractive to pass up, even with all the possible limitations that may be attached to the early versions.

Aside from the fact the mfrs can't sell the damn things in the USA in quantities and at prices to make a profit, the second biggest deterrent to US sales is the real or imagined threat of TiVO lawsuits. Apparently the implementation of the copy-inhibit flag in analog broadcasts is too unpredictable to get them thru a lawsuit, but after the transition a DVD recorder with HDD *that completely obeys* a digital ATSC/QAM copy-inhibit system might be defensible against TiVO. One could argue that TiVO, being a closed system without removable media, allows everything to be timeshifted, while the ATSC DVD/HDD recorder can be shut down by any program that is copy-protected, limiting its functionality and crippling it quite a bit compared to TiVO. The CE mfrs could almost claim it is a distinct product that just happens to have a hard drive.

I don't think I understand your point. (I understand the fears about Tivo lawsuits, but it seems like that could be avoided if necessary, and/or licensed. I presume that even things like the annoying 'chase play' mode are intended to get away from lawsuits.)

But for the other points, I don't get it. Tivos definitely DO respect the various copy protection features.. heck, you can even record a 2 hour program that, if I have understood other people's descriptions, starts to go away in 90 minutes.. (or maybe it's 90 minutes after the end of the recording, but I doubt it).

I don't think I understand your point. (...) Tivos definitely DO respect the various copy protection features...

Sorry, I was trying to save wordspace by using "TiVO" as a generic term for all hard drive recorders that do NOT have DVD burners. I don't actually know anyone with a TiVO-branded box, I'm more specifically referring to the recording converter boxes people rent from cable and satellite. Given the huge installed base of these, its safe to assume TiVO licensed its patents to those systems.

Of course I will take your word for it that "TiVO"-branded independent boxes people pick up from Best Buy or Circuit City do in fact obey CP restrictions. I was basing my remarks on the experience of my friends and family with *cable-provided* "TiVO"-like boxes: since they are embedded in the proprietary cableco system , they will apparently record anything the box can receive, at least on our particular local Time Warner system. With no removable media, there isn't much piracy threat from allowing them to record everything. They do however record the DRM signal along with the program, so any attempt to archive a protected program by connecting an external DVD recorder to the cable box is defeated. Pay-per-view programs are also time-limited same as they would be if ordered thru a standard converter box.

I guess my point was that a 2009 digital-ATSC-only, no-analog-tuner DVD/HDD recorder that obeys all DRM restrictions could credibly claim its more limited recording functionality distinguishes it (legally/technically?) from an "anything goes" cable-provided TiVO box.

I guess we all know that the electrical std. in Japan or Australia, in which it's 50Hz in Australia, and 220V in Japan, do not work in North America.

You'll need a transformer to fix the voltage. And that's too much work for most people

220V in Japan

Wrong. As stated earlier in this thread, Japan is 100V (http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2225.html).

Step up/down transformers can be had easily; if you're in Japan, in Akihabara or at the airport; otherwise, online, for example http://www.voltageconverters.com/japan_voltage.html

Hummm.... no HiDef inputs, no IEEE1394 output, and will BR media ever be "cheap"....

I think they could remove DRM for HD content because the only thing that will be affordable to hold the content will be hard drives. It will be a long, long, long time before any media eclipses the HD. DVD will never be cheaper than HD, BR will never be cheaper than HD, and probably the "next thing" will never be cheaper than HD.

So the only DRM concern are the commercial bootleggers selling copies of movies on BR for $10 or more if the copies are very good.

As time passes, my 40k JVC DVHS is becoming my prize - note my Toshiba RD-SX32 or my Philips 3455.

Sorry, I was trying to save wordspace by using "TiVO" as a generic term for all hard drive recorders that do NOT have DVD burners. I don't actually know anyone with a TiVO-branded box, I'm more specifically referring to the recording converter boxes people rent from cable and satellite.

Those are typically referred to generically as "DVRs" which takes about as much "wordspace" as Tivo. ;)

Hummm.... no HiDef inputs, no IEEE1394 output, and will BR media ever be "cheap"....

I think they could remove DRM for HD content because the only thing that will be affordable to hold the content will be hard drives. It will be a long, long, long time before any media eclipses the HD. DVD will never be cheaper than HD, BR will never be cheaper than HD, and probably the "next thing" will never be cheaper than HD.

So the only DRM concern are the commercial bootleggers selling copies of movies on BR for $10 or more if the copies are very good.

As time passes, my 40k JVC DVHS is becoming my prize - note my Toshiba RD-SX32 or my Philips 3455.

While I tend to agree with you that they glory days of portable optical media for content distribution and portable viewing are past, not sure I get what you are saying about HD (I assume you are referring to hard disk drives AKA HDDs and not HD for high definition content though you appear to use HD interchangeably in your post) being cheaper than DVD (on a $ per GB basis or what, SD DVDs certainly ARE cheaper than HDDs today). I think the future of content distribution is either small HDDs or flash-based memory cards because the capacities and/or form factor are superior to DVDs (either SD or Blu Ray).

And while the DVHS appears to be a great way to obtain and store high definition digital content because of its input flexibility, doesn't the restriction of tape-based linear navigation and transport leave A LOT to be desired? It seems to me that this has been eclipsed by HD Tivo or the HD DVRs being offered by the Cable Cos in terms of the User Interface/Programming Guide, On Demand playback, and random access to recorded content. But I may be talking out of my tuckus because I otherwise don't know much about the virtues of DVHS - so please educate me. Thanks.

It's hard to tell from the pics, but I don't see any high def inputs (only HDMI and component out).


Did anyone notice that ther wer not inputs at all in the specs? Only HDD to DVD recording.:confused: