Flipping through the TV today I stopped on ABC's "Indy Car Racing" and noticed something. The translucend ABC bug in the right sidebar is gone. Replaced with the same obnoxious full-color opaque bug that is used on the SD feed. And it is 4:3 safe. That's not the worst part. THEY HAD AN AD FOR THE NBA FINALS ON NEXT TO THE BUG!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Does this mean we can expect to now see ABC cluttered with ads for crappy reality programming coming this summer(like NBC)?

I will give ABC credit on one thing: unlike NBC, ABC's bug is smaller. It would be better if it were transparent(I think it will be for regular programming, ESPN/ABC ususally use the full-color opaque bug).

See for yourself:

i think it has more to do with an "espn on ABC" thing. pretty sure they are still using the translucent on most everything else.

Usually ESPN-HD on ABC-HD uses the ABC-HD bug in its normal position, just slightly lower so it is in the ESPN Bottom Line bar, like the bug on the cable network. The last HD show I watched that was technically ESPN was part of the Spelling Bee on Friday. The bug was in the right sidebar at the bottom of the screen.

Yesterday was the WNBA in SD, so it used the SD bug.

Today is the first of the month and the beginning of their summer TV season. Seems like a time to start something new. NBC started the new bug the night of Last Comic Standing, kicking off the summer reality season. CBS began on a Monday of the last week of their season.

Only time will tell. I'll have to wait until Desperate Housewives tonight to see how regular programming goes.

Whether it's today or later on, the bug will eventually be moving there. It is normal porcedure now that the DTV transition is coming up soon. Of all the networks, ABC's snipes are not that bad. They are not NBC-like with the huge ads in the center of the screen or like CBS with the blue streaks "swooshing" across a dark crime drama. Could you imagine CBS-style snipes on "Lost"? :mad:

ABC's SD is cluttered with snipes and this will likely move to HD. This is the downside to HD becoming the mainstream. Of the broadcast networks NBC and CW are still the Kings O Clutter. Still far worse was the promotional graphics on TNT during the NBA playoffs. They used wide shots from the back during freethrows while the bottom half of the screen had animated clutter with bright bursts.

Okay, so it finally happened. On Desperate Housewives they're using the regular SD bug in the 4:3 area now. I guess, the ABC holding out was just too good to last :(. I was kind of hoping they'd keep the small bug though. I wouldn't be so angry about the move if it was still teeny tiny like it used to be.

Oh but it gets weirder, I just checked the SD channel. Now, my local affiliate, WCHS, has been centre-cutting the HD feed for the SD channel for a long time now. For the last year or more the bug and rating get cropped completely on the SD channel on HD shows. SD viewers are getting the bug back for the first time tonight, however, it would appear the new bug position isn't quite overscan safe. I'm currently watching Desperate Housewives on "AB" :rolleyes:. So we might have to see the bug inch even even farther to the left once they figure it out.

I'm pleasantly surprised by the new bug. There haven't been any snipes and the ad bug that is on the SD channel is not on the HD channel. I give ABC a thubs up. They handled this change with class, unlike NBC. I actually like this new bug better than the old, unnecessary ABC-HD bug.

I'm pleasantly surprised by the new bug. There haven't been any snipes and the ad bug that is on the SD channel is not on the HD channel. I give ABC a thubs up. They handled this change with class, unlike NBC. I actually like this new bug better than the old, unnecessary ABC-HD bug.
The words NBC and class don't deserve to be in the same sentence, even the way you negatively worded it. Of course now we can add CBS into that mix also.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1192/snapshot20080601ol5.th.jpg (http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot20080601ol5.jpg)

You can also tell if your SD feed is the network SD feed or from the HD feed cause
on the network SD feed the logo and text for the NBA finals never goes away but it's not on the HD feed.
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/4562/snapshot200806010000jx9.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200806010000jx9.jpg)

I just find it amazing that all the networks have this herd mentality when it comes to copying whatever the other one is doing. NBC starts putting annoying on-screen crawls and animated promotionals in their primetime shows, and then the other networks (and many cable channels that weren't doing this before) begin doing the same thing a few weeks later. This '4x3' bug placement is more startling because it happened within days of NBC doing it first. Why are CBS and ABC so desperate to copy what the #4 network does with its damn on-screen bug placement? They're 4th in the ratings for a reason! :rolleyes:

I guess ABC didn't listen... check my other thread I started Friday (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1034644).

Once I saw this Friday night I was worried, guess I was right in doing so:(

I just find it amazing that all the networks have this herd mentality when it comes to copying whatever the other one is doing. NBC starts putting annoying on-screen crawls and animated promotionals in their primetime shows, and then the other networks (and many cable channels that weren't doing this before) begin doing the same thing a few weeks later. This '4x3' bug placement is more startling because it happened within days of NBC doing it first. Why are CBS and ABC so desperate to copy what the #4 network does with its damn on-screen bug placement? They're 4th in the ratings for a reason! :rolleyes:

The 4x3 bug placement was most likely planned irrespective of the other networks' plans and they just happened to align around the same time.

Considering D* and E*, and some affiliates, are center cutting the network HD feed for their SD, this is actually the best course of action for all broadcast networks.

This '4x3' bug placement is more startling because it happened within days of NBC doing it first. Why are CBS and ABC so desperate to copy what the #4 network does with its damn on-screen bug placement? They're 4th in the ratings for a reason! :rolleyes:They knew with the impending shutoff that it was going to be necessary, and better to do it now than later. NBC is actually ahead of the other networks in that they have been using a single HD path with AFD internally. Besides the shutoff, the networks are planning to drop their SD network feeds too. Best to try this all out during the summer than to wait until the fall/spring seasons. And the reason NBC is #4 doesn't have much to do with technical issue issues (at least among the general viewing audience), it's just that the programming sucks. Their schedule resembles their NY street at Universal Pictures, except the lot may be fixed before the ratings are.

Wait until you see the bugs I have for the Mexicah HDTV channels when broadcasting Soccer (football as they say). You'll faint!!!

If its anything like the SD soccer channels in the States they make NBC look like PBS.

Actually FOX got the ball rolling with the 4:3 bugs on American Idol's live shows. NBC also used it as a one night only for Miss USA. CBS was the first to implement it full time on May 19. NBC began doing it full time on May 22.

Actually in this case, the last place network copied CBS.

Network rating position could affect the amount of on-screen clutter. Since much of NBC's awful programming doesn't get many eyes, they could decide to go into advertising overdrive when they know there are alot of eyes on their network. So they choose high-rated shows, like the L&O franchise and some comedies like The Office. Commercials aren't enough, since many viewers DVR and skip them. Then their solution is to fill the screens with crap, hoping that a portion of the audience will tune in for that show.

Network rating position could affect the amount of on-screen clutter. Since much of NBC's awful programming doesn't get many eyes, they could decide to go into advertising overdrive when they know there are alot of eyes on their network. So they choose high-rated shows, like the L&O franchise and some comedies like The Office. Commercials aren't enough, since many viewers DVR and skip them. Then their solution is to fill the screens with crap, hoping that a portion of the audience will tune in for that show.
I don't watch NBC because of the clutter, and the fact that the local HD channel here is a mess.

Why are CBS and ABC so desperate to copy what the #4 network does with its damn on-screen bug placement? They're 4th in the ratings for a reason! :rolleyes:

because then they can go into meetings and one of their Powerpoint slides can read:

"leveraging new onscreen digital promotional models for upcoming shows using the latest in audience information delivery systems to ensure audience retention and network recognition with enhanced graphics and display scaling adjustment."

and it looks like they are making actual progress with something revolutionary they've just thought of to justify their huge salaries with share holders.

What it actually means is:

"We haven't come up with any new ideas so we are just copying what everyone else is doing with advertising and promotional trends."

Only Fox so far have announced anything remotely different in the way shows are being presented next year. By coincidence their HD bug has remained unchanged here. Still small and in the corner with no pointless clutter. We'll see how long it stays that way or if they are being gutsy enough to think outside the ad box that everyone else is copying.

because then they can go into meetings and one of their Powerpoint slides can read:

"leveraging new onscreen digital promotional models for upcoming shows using the latest in audience information delivery systems to ensure audience retention and network recognition with enhanced graphics and display scaling adjustment."
You must work in marketing. ;)

This perhaps comes back to the fact that many people feel better to think that people who make decisions they don't like don't know what they're doing. :(

ABC is still spaming the SD feed with the NBA finals promo to the left of the logo.
Since WABC still uses an up convert of the WABC SD feed for non HD programming we are stuck with the NBA promo on the HD feed.

This perhaps comes back to the fact that many people feel better to think that people who make decisions they don't like don't know what they're doing. :(
Can you show us proof that it is working and they do know what they are doing? Nevermind, don't answer that, I don't want to pollute another thread bickering back and forth with you.

All SD programming is an upconvert. I don't think ABC sends down a different feed if the show is SD. Whenever a show is in SD(reality, soaps) the same crap that is on ALL SD shows is on that show as well, even though it is on the HD channel.

Eventually it will be done the other way. When networks begin discontinuing the separate analog feed and send a digital-only feed. Although by that time the ad crap and snipes will also be on the digital feed.

ABC does send their SD programming up converted on the ABC-HD feed. I wish WABC would use the ABC-HD up convert of non HD shows cause I'm sure the PQ is much better then we are getting from the up convert of the WABC analog/SD feed.

I was flipping through my channels this afternoon, and I saw that the Young in the Restless in HD now has 4:3 safe bug. It looked so stupid being right there.

Is there really still a lack of understanding why the bugs are being moved to safe 4:3? Yeah it sucks but it's been known for some time that it would happen. It's a consequence of the elimination of the separate SD feeds, both OTA and network distribution. What is a legitimate complaint is the clutter of promotional animations over the show. This could be a race to the bottom by the promo pinheads for the title of the top cluttermaster.

Can you show us proof that it is working and they do know what they are doing? Can you show us proof that it isn't working and that they don't know what they are doing? Nevermind, don't answer that, I don't want to pollute another thread bickering back and forth with you.

Wait until you see the bugs I have for the Mexicah HDTV channels when broadcasting Soccer (football as they say). You'll faint!!!

You should see all the clutter TV Azteca HD puts on Ventaneando HD. I'd estimate that at least 20% of the show has clutter on it.

You should see all the clutter TV Azteca HD puts on Ventaneando HD. I'd estimate that at least 20% of the show has clutter on it.

Oh god, that kind of makes me hope the American Spanish networks never go HD. Considering they'll just be rebroadcasting the Mexican content anyway. They already typically have no less than three bugs on most the talk shows. One for the American network, one for the original network, and one advertising the name of the show you're currently watching, wtf? Then when they show a clip taken from another network they have that bug too so having all four corners filled isn't uncommon. I can only imagine what it would look like if they had more screen real estate to have their way with +_+.

Oh god, that kind of makes me hope the American Spanish networks never go HD. Considering they'll just be rebroadcasting the Mexican content anyway. They already typically have no less than three bugs on most the talk shows. One for the American network, one for the original network, and one advertising the name of the show you're currently watching, wtf? Then when they show a clip taken from another network they have that bug too so having all four corners filled isn't uncommon. I can only imagine what it would look like if they had more screen real estate to have their way with +_+.

Actually they keep the clutter on the 4:3 area. Also another bad thing is that they have the host do commercials most of the time, and they put a text box in the 4:3 area with the name of the product. Also they put a giant text box that almost fills half the 4:3 area that tells you what they're going to talk about latter.

Is there really still a lack of understanding why the bugs are being moved to safe 4:3? Yeah it sucks but it's been known for some time that it would happen. It's a consequence of the elimination of the separate SD feeds, both OTA and network distribution. What is a legitimate complaint is the clutter of promotional animations over the show. This could be a race to the bottom by the promo pinheads for the title of the top cluttermaster.


OR instead of a center cut, the cable/sat co's could letterbox. But noooooooooooo that would mean black bars on people's TV screens.... the horror. Maybe FOX is planning on doing that, and therefore has no need of moving their bug.

I can't believe so many people have an aversion to letterbox bars. Personally I cannot stand 4:3 pictures on a 4:3 TV if I know the show is widescreen. I actually prefer the widescreen picture. It is the idea that picture is "cut off" or "there are black bars on the screen" that confuses people. After DTV switch is over, it is time to start running widescreen PSAs. Start informing viewers that they are seeing MORE of the show in letterbox.From what I've heard, people are pretty used to (and accepting of) letterboxing bars. It's a different matter when it comes to bars on the sides. If people always have their CECB in widescreen mode, a lot of people, especially seniors (with their reading difficulties), won't be pleased with the fact that some shows, even after the transition is over, are still going to be 4x3 SD, and therefore display black bars on all sides.

Well, some might say, the user can switch between center-cutting and widescreen with their remote. While this seems like a good idea at first, in practice, a lot of people won't care to, want to, or know how to constantly switch between 4x3 center-cutting and widescreening programming. One of the most important rules of TV is not to make watching TV annoying (Network employees reading this, please note: The new promo bugs, like "CRAP SHOW / ALL NEW / TUE 9/8C", violate this rule).

If everything becomes pure 16x9 SD widescreen or HD, then things become different, everything (including network bug placement) can be standardized for 16x9 widescreen, and people can make one single switch in their CECB to widescreen mode.

I opined on a way to standardize 16x9 within broadcast TV in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13908848#post13908848).

You should see all the clutter TV Azteca HD puts on Ventaneando HD. I'd estimate that at least 20% of the show has clutter on it.

Does it look like it does in the movie Idiocracy?

http://dvd.ign.com/dor/objects/865536/idiocracy/images/idiocracy-20070215034122749.html?page=mediaFull

Until then, I think the networks should make a "special" feed for digital cable/satellite SDTV. All 4:3 programming is STRETCHED then LETTERBOXED. Let the SDTV viewers experience stretchovision.Networks are trying to eliminate their SD feeds. Besides, cable and satellite companies don't carry networks directly but rather their affiliates. If the stations supply a SD feed then they can control how the downconversion is performed and therefore networks lose control whether it's letterbox or center cut. Stations will be moving to a single HD system too. AFD could help but it's in little if any use at the moment. 4:3 bugs are the only way networks can assure their branding is not cropped out. We all wish the bugs would go away completely but that train left a long time ago.

ABC is now using the solid black bug on the HD feed for the NBA Finals Pre Game show.
I hope they go back to the regular logo when the game starts.

Well, ABC has managed to be the best broadcast network so far this new season. Tonight I watched 'Boston Legal' on ABC HD and there was not even one snipe over the HD programming. Way to go, ABC!! I thought for sure ABC would be starting that trend tonight(as the new season begins) but they resisted the urge to pick up all the bad habits of FOX, NBC, CBS and the CW.

Good work, ABC!!! Your new HD promos are a nice touch as well. Networks, follow the lead of ABC. Look to ABC for guidance!

Can anyone confirm that there were no snipes or overlays next to the bug during Heroes? There weren't as long as I watched before I let the DVR get the rest for me.

I think we may be in a position where there won't be any bug overlays during new scripted programming on the networks.

I flipped over to NBC to see how they were handling their SD feed. All they had in the 8PM hour is the NBC bird to the left and a countdown clock to the right. The clock looked incredibly stupid as it was 4:3 safe AND letterboxed. Why hasn't NBC switched to 4:3 SD distribution for primetime? They already did for SNL. Also, NBC ran no bug at all during the opening of Conan. The bug only came on when the interview portion began. The same with Leno.

CBS still ran snipes as usual. The same huge, flashy crap.

ABC had no snipes at all. Great work.

CW had the bug with advertising text above it and I'd assume snipes as usual.

All in all, not bad. The only thing that needs to be fixed over at ABC is the bug should be moved UP and to the LEFT. Once downconversion begins, the bug will definitely be clipped. Also, the bug just doesn't look "right" as low on the screen as it is. NBC needs to stop letterboxing. Their shows look ridiculous shown in letterbox with a floating bug. If you're putting the bug 4:3 safe, why not show the 4:3 channel in 4:3? The SD 'floating bug' looks worse than the SD channel.

ABC does send their SD programming up converted on the ABC-HD feed. I wish WABC would use the ABC-HD up convert of non HD shows cause I'm sure the PQ is much better then we are getting from the up convert of the WABC analog/SD feed.

Currently ABC does NOT send SD only programming on their HD feed. The only thing that shows up on the ABC-HD feed are actual HD shows - GMA, The View, World News, and primetime shows/special events.

Soaps, Wife Swap, Extreme Home Makeover, and any other show that isn't in HD is only on the ABC-SD feed.

I know this because I work at an ABC affiliate.

This will be changing soon because ABC is in the process of upgrading their satellite delivery/reception system to all their affiliates. They are installing equipment to receive multiple MPEG4 HD steams. Starting next February, any SD only shows will be upconverted by Network and sent down to the affiliates as 720p.

Currently ABC does NOT send SD only programming on their HD feed. The only thing that shows up on the ABC-HD feed are actual HD shows - GMA, The View, World News, and primetime shows/special events.

Soaps, Wife Swap, Extreme Home Makeover, and any other show that isn't in HD is only on the ABC-SD feed.

I know this because I work at an ABC affiliate.

This will be changing soon because ABC is in the process of upgrading their satellite delivery/reception system to all their affiliates. They are installing equipment to receive multiple MPEG4 HD steams. Starting next February, any SD only shows will be upconverted by Network and sent down to the affiliates as 720p.

Affiliate or no, you are only HALF right. ALL Primetime programming is on the HD feed. Has been for several years now. So, Wife Swap and Extreme Home Makeover are always on the HD feed upconverted. You were correct about the Soaps.

If you doubt me, check your HD receiver output during Primetime.

Affiliate or no, you are only HALF right. ALL Primetime programming is on the HD feed. Has been for several years now. So, Wife Swap and Extreme Home Makeover are always on the HD feed upconverted. You were correct about the Soaps.

If you doubt me, check your HD receiver output during Primetime.

I work dayside, so I will admit that I havn't seen the ABC-HD monitor during SD primetime shows, however I do know for a fact that the automation system is NOT programmed to use the ABC-HD feed during SD only shows. It is programmed to use the SD ABC1 feed.

I will check with someone from second shift when I have a chance, but I'm sure that if it showed up on the ABC-HD feed, we would program that in since it's only a matter of adding a 'H' to the ABC1 in the source column.

The only thing that needs to be fixed over at ABC is the bug should be moved UP and to the LEFT. Once downconversion begins, the bug will definitely be clipped. Also, the bug just doesn't look "right" as low on the screen as it is. NBC needs to stop letterboxing. Their shows look ridiculous shown in letterbox with a floating bug. If you're putting the bug 4:3 safe, why not show the 4:3 channel in 4:3? The SD 'floating bug' looks worse than the SD channel.

I can't agree with you on moving the bug more into the important part of the picture. I wish it was still tiny and in the lower right corner like it was a year ago. But you're right, the current bug placement isn't completely overscan safe. My affiliate does downconvert for SD and ever since they moved the HD bug it looks like you're watching "AB" on my old 19" SD CRT with slightly above average overscan. My other SD tvs don't experience this problem. The bug on true SD programs is slightly farther up and left from the HD one and doesn't have this problem either.

I've been expecting ABC to clue into this for a while. So far they haven't and I'm somewhat glad. The weird thing is that on that 19" there was NO bug back when it was in the 16:9 area. Now there's half a bug :rolleyes:.

I can't agree with you on moving the bug more into the important part of the picture. I wish it was still tiny and in the lower right corner like it was a year ago. But you're right, the current bug placement isn't completely overscan safe. My affiliate does downconvert for SD and ever since they moved the HD bug it looks like you're watching "AB" on my old 19" SD CRT with slightly above average overscan. My other SD tvs don't experience this problem. The bug on true SD programs is slightly farther up and left from the HD one and doesn't have this problem either.

I've been expecting ABC to clue into this for a while. So far they haven't and I'm somewhat glad. The weird thing is that on that 19" there was NO bug back when it was in the 16:9 area. Now there's half a bug :rolleyes:.

ABC is aware and its placed where it is intended with the knowledge of not intruding on the HD viewer any more than needed, so its placed in the 90 instead of the 80 like others. The move was strictly to combat center cut downconverts.

I can't agree with you on moving the bug more into the important part of the picture. I wish it was still tiny and in the lower right corner like it was a year ago. But you're right, the current bug placement isn't completely overscan safe. My affiliate does downconvert for SD and ever since they moved the HD bug it looks like you're watching "AB" on my old 19" SD CRT with slightly above average overscan. My other SD tvs don't experience this problem. The bug on true SD programs is slightly farther up and left from the HD one and doesn't have this problem either.

I've been expecting ABC to clue into this for a while. So far they haven't and I'm somewhat glad. The weird thing is that on that 19" there was NO bug back when it was in the 16:9 area. Now there's half a bug :rolleyes:.

The odd thing is during the Emmy awards on Sunday night and the Jimmy Kimmel show before the awards, the bug was in the correct position(HIGHER and to the LEFT). I actually liked it there, watching it on HD feed. It seemed more 'natural' since that seems to be the norm now. IDK what it is, but the lower position it currently is in messes with my eyes. It's similar to when the CBS eye was moved more towards the right. There was less distance between the bug and the right corner of the screen than under the bug to the bottom of the screen. Although I assume the ABC bug will be moving in time for 2/17/09 anyway. I highly doubt ABC will let their channel be called "AB" on the SDTV screens.

You're one of the lucky people. I wish we had that here. Especially when the bugs were outside the 4:3 area and there were no snipes on HD channels. If they sold these converter boxes a few years ago I'd get one just for the sole purpose of setting it to chop the sides off---and the bugs!!!!!

This will be changing soon because ABC is in the process of upgrading their satellite delivery/reception system to all their affiliates. They are installing equipment to receive multiple MPEG4 HD steams. Starting next February, any SD only shows will be upconverted by Network and sent down to the affiliates as 720p.

They're waiting until February? They better be really confident everything will work fine: both on the network level and the affiliate level. That's really pushing it close.

I really wish ABC would go Digital Widescreen with shows like Wife Swap, Extreme home Makeover and the daytime soaps. FOX has done an excellent job using digital widescreen this season and the result is much better than regular 4:3.