I want to make sure the ISF calibrator has the equipment needed. I know they'll also need to know how to use it but it's gotta start with the right equipment.

Also, what else would be helpful and ensure a better calibration?

Greetings

Equipment choice depends on the display technology that you have. If they use a spectrometer of some form then it will work on everything. If they are using a pod based unit ... then they have problems on some technology types. (Although the sellers often say the gear works on everything ... but cleverly leaving out the works on every thing equally well part.)

And then half of the calibrators listed often don't have equipment at all ... or don't even know that the gear needs to be re-spec'd every so often for accuracy purposes. Precision instruments afterall.

It will be helpful for you to ask as many questions before and during the calibration. There is more to calibration than just doing the work. Education is a key ... understanding the questions can often be more important than just getting answers with no point of reference.

If you are not sure of the calibrator guy, ask here and someone will help you out.

Regards

I have a Pioneer Elite Pro1150 Kuro

Also, what else would be helpful and ensure a better calibration?

Along the lines of what Michael has said already, a skilled calibrator with experience with the type of display, and to a certain extent also the make of the display, is at least as important as the equipment used. A skilled calibrator with an EyeOne Pro and free software, could very well get much better results than a less skilled calibrator with 20.000$ worth of equipment. This is definately true for Pioneer displays, that do have certain quirks that you need to figure out how to deal with.

Greetings

Both pods and spec meters would work on that plasma set. But pods should not be used to play with the color management system of the TV. The CMS on the Pioneer is not a complete system so messing with that part yields questionable results ... which may mess up other parts of the image.

The system is not properly implemented and acts more like a marketing "me too" feature rather than a parameter that actually works right and results in real positive image changes.

Whether the calibrator uses the ISF c3 interface does not really matter since the tV calibrates just as well without it in the user menu. In some ways the TV calibrates better in the user menu than with the C3 interface.

In this business experience counts a whole lot ... but experience without gear is an oxymoron. Can't have one without the other ... although it is possible to have gear but no experience.

Regards

What does the "CMS" stand for in your above statement?

Greetings

It stands for color management system. There is a thing in there that shows RGBCYM.

Regards

And by all means educate yourself in the process of calibration and what the calibrator will do, and as others have said: ASK QUESTIONS!

If the calibrator doesn't seem willing to answer your questions before you sign them up, don't sign up.

Kal

Electricity! :D

No but seriously, you should have your system relatively finalized and your sources in place so the calibrator can align properly to those as well. Calibration is about the playback chain, not just the last part of it, so you want to ensure that the whole chain is as complete as you can get it, or you're not really going to be getting all your money's worth. And certainly value is often a big part of the enthusiast's motivation too.

Should I reset my 1150 to is factory settings before he starts the calibration?

And does any of the Power Save or Gamma modes effect they setting of the greyscale or anything else? To me it the Power Save or Gamma mode would probably turn down the overall brightness of the display but I'm probably wrong.

Greetings

If you actually want a look at the before versus after in terms of the calibration, it does you no good to reset it. So much for a peek at where you were. All you know is where you end up ...

Most people don't care about pretty graphs so I wouldn't sweat it. Just don't ask for it after the fact.

Stop trying to second guess the calibrator. Just let him do his job with the controls on the TV. Do you do this to the car mechanic when they give your car the maintenance package? Or is the goal to hinder the calibrator by second guessing everything that he does?

If you want to save power ... you keep the TV turned off. Calibration is not about saving energy. :)

Regards

...Whether the calibrator uses the ISF c3 interface does not really matter since the tV calibrates just as well without it in the user menu. In some ways the TV calibrates better in the user menu than with the C3 interface...From what I know, for Pioneer 8G Elite I have to disagree with this statement. The only way that you can rectify these sets inherent drop in luminance at 10% stimulus is by using their ISF C3. If you know of some other way I would be very interested to hear about it.

I agree with everything else that you write, in general and with regards to the controls in the Pioneers in particular. ;)

I find the C3 utility for th Kuro displays both useful and worthless.

What makes it useful is that the new version that was just released in the last couple of weeks (that should have been released last summer!) FINALLY has all the adjustments in it that it should have had from the beginning. AND one of those adjustments is 9 additional adjustment points for the gray scale. So not only do you have a "master" cut/gain adjustment for the top and bottom of the gray scale, you have individual adjustments for each step from 10-90%. Even thiough you CAN get a gray scale with some very low errors without the additional adjustment points, there are still errors. The extra 9 steps lets you get all the errors down to dE=0 or 1. Now that may not do much since various sources say dEs under 3 or 4 are undetectable and you can get the Elite Kuros under 4 for every step except perhaps 10% without the additional 9 steps. But, I have to say, I thought I did detect a picture that was subtly better when I used the extra 9 steps (available only in a Pioneer factory/in-house utility I used way back last December during a review). It wasn't anything to get too excited over compared to the calibration without the extra 9 steps, but it surprised me that I could detect anything.

The thing that makes the ISF modes just about useless from my perspective is that EVERY user menu adjustmet is disabled when you select an ISF mode (on Pioneer products). So if you're watching something that really needs an tweak, you have to leave ISF mode to get the User Menu adjsutments back.

I agree with Michael's comments about Pioneer's CMS - using it to move primaries or secondaries enough to actually make the primary or secondary accurate upsets so many other parameters/measurements that you end up with much larger errors after using the CMS than if you just leave it alone. Small changes to the CMS aren't too destructive, but small changes may not be enough to make the primaries and secondaries accurate.

Something else not often mentioned when seeking out a calibrator... I personally guarantee satisfaction with the calibration. If it's not the best that display can be, I will return and make it right. Now, obviously, I'm not going to re-engineer the video display - the display is what it is. You can make some a lot better than others. I can't make every display perfect, but I do whatever it takes to produce the best images any given display can produce and I can explain why the display in question can't be made any better. For example, some Panasonic models have black levels that go up and down in response to the APL (average picture level). I can't stop that, but it can be minimized up to a point with the right setup. If I find out later that there's something that can be done better or differently, the next time I'm in the area I will even offer to stop and update the calibration. As a calibrator, you don't want to be doing this sort of thing too often as it cuts into time you can be getting paid for. It makes sense to do your homework in advance and to spend the time you need to spend the first time you calibrate a display to get everything right. But nobody is perfect and there are times when I feel the right thing to do for the customer is to "make it right". There are limits to this, of course. Projection lamps drift over time, for example. So you won't find any calibrator who will re-calibrate any projection setup every 500 hours for no charge.

I find the C3 utility for th Kuro displays both useful and worthless.

What makes it useful is that the new version that was just released in the last couple of weeks (that should have been released last summer!) FINALLY has all the adjustments in it that it should have had from the beginning. AND one of those adjustments is 9 additional adjustment points for the gray scale. So not only do you have a "master" cut/gain adjustment for the top and bottom of the gray scale, you have individual adjustments for each step from 10-90%. Even thiough you CAN get a gray scale with some very low errors without the additional adjustment points, there are still errors. The extra 9 steps lets you get all the errors down to dE=0 or 1. Now that may not do much since various sources say dEs under 3 or 4 are undetectable and you can get the Elite Kuros under 4 for every step except perhaps 10% without the additional 9 steps. But, I have to say, I thought I did detect a picture that was subtly better when I used the extra 9 steps (available only in a Pioneer factory/in-house utility I used way back last December during a review). It wasn't anything to get too excited over compared to the calibration without the extra 9 steps, but it surprised me that I could detect anything.

The thing that makes the ISF modes just about useless from my perspective is that EVERY user menu adjustmet is disabled when you select an ISF mode (on Pioneer products). So if you're watching something that really needs an tweak, you have to leave ISF mode to get the User Menu adjsutments back.

I agree with Michael's comments about Pioneer's CMS - using it to move primaries or secondaries enough to actually make the primary or secondary accurate upsets so many other parameters/measurements that you end up with much larger errors after using the CMS than if you just leave it alone. Small changes to the CMS aren't too destructive, but small changes may not be enough to make the primaries and secondaries accurate.

Something else not often mentioned when seeking out a calibrator... I personally guarantee satisfaction with the calibration. If it's not the best that display can be, I will return and make it right. Now, obviously, I'm not going to re-engineer the video display - the display is what it is. You can make some a lot better than others. I can't make every display perfect, but I do whatever it takes to produce the best images any given display can produce and I can explain why the display in question can't be made any better. For example, some Panasonic models have black levels that go up and down in response to the APL (average picture level). I can't stop that, but it can be minimized up to a point with the right setup. If I find out later that there's something that can be done better or differently, the next time I'm in the area I will even offer to stop and update the calibration. As a calibrator, you don't want to be doing this sort of thing too often as it cuts into time you can be getting paid for. It makes sense to do your homework in advance and to spend the time you need to spend the first time you calibrate a display to get everything right. But nobody is perfect and there are times when I feel the right thing to do for the customer is to "make it right". There are limits to this, of course. Projection lamps drift over time, for example. So you won't find any calibrator who will re-calibrate any projection setup every 500 hours for no charge.




Should I ask him if he has the lastest software that has the 9 extra adjustment points? Do you know what version this is?

I agree with Michael's comments about Pioneer's CMS - using it to move primaries or secondaries enough to actually make the primary or secondary accurate upsets so many other parameters/measurements that you end up with much larger errors after using the CMS than if you just leave it alone. Small changes to the CMS aren't too destructive, but small changes may not be enough to make the primaries and secondaries accurate.

Out of curiousity, what do large changes to the CMS mess up? Grayscale, or other things?

TX

Hi Todd, just to put your mind a bit at ease. I will be using the latest version of the ISF C3 utility. Will be calibrating your Kuro using the Sencore OTC1000 non-contact probe along with the VP403C signal generator. If you have any questions regarding equipment, etc feel free to ask. I'm always willing to answer questions and address whatever concerns you may have.

Should I ask him if he has the lastest software that has the 9 extra adjustment points? Do you know what version this is?

From what I know, for Pioneer 8G Elite I have to disagree with this statement. The only way that you can rectify these sets inherent drop in luminance at 10% stimulus is by using their ISF C3. If you know of some other way I would be very interested to hear about it.

I agree with everything else that you write, in general and with regards to the controls in the Pioneers in particular. ;)

Your problem is more likely a measurement problem at low luminance than the display. I find they track very well without ISF C3. The best way to tell if things are good at low levels is to look with your eyes. The gray should look charcoal black at this light level. I have redone many of these displays calibrated by others with C3 in the user menu alone and in no case was it inferior to the previous attempt.

The biggest problem with a good calibration is not C3, but great tools and technique. For example people claiming large CMS moves are necessary on the 8G Pioneers are responding to measurement errors and not display errors. These displays require small moves to get the primaries and secondaries very close. Measuring primaries and secondaries accurately requires exceptional tools. If you do not have these do not mess with these things unless the errors are large or visible to the eye.

Should I ask him if he has the lastest software that has the 9 extra adjustment points? Do you know what version this is?


Well, Sencore screwed up... the new version is downloaded as a ZIP file that has V 2.0 in the name, but when you install the software and start it up, the name of the program in the top left corner of the window frame is V 1.0. If there are tabs in the utility named Setup, Basic, Advance1 and Advance2... that's the version 2.0 C3 utility. (there are more tabs than just those, but those are enough to identify V 2.0). And any earlier C3 utilities for Gen7 or earlier Pioneers are not compatible with Kuro models.

But keep in mind, if you do get the ISF modes installed on your Kuro (this is available for Elite models only, by the way), you will not be able to adjust anything unless you leave the ISF mode.

Out of curiousity, what do large changes to the CMS mess up? Grayscale, or other things?

TX

The best way to see the effect is to view the graph the software creates from a gray scale measurement... but not the usual luminance histogram, you want to see the R, G, & B tracking. As the CMS adjustments get larger, the R, G, & B tracking graphs get increasingly erratic. With no CMS adjustments, the RGB tracking is very linear for all 3 colors. As you increase CMS adjustments, the 3 colors get peaks and dips that were not there before the CMS adjustments and they may all go in different directions so you end up with visible errors in the gray scale when there were none (or very small) errors prior to the CMS adjustments.

Your problem is more likely a measurement problem at low luminance than the display. I find they track very well without ISF C3. The best way to tell if things are good at low levels is to look with your eyes. The gray should look charcoal black at this light level. I have redone many of these displays calibrated by others with C3 in the user menu alone and in no case was it inferior to the previous attempt.

The biggest problem with a good calibration is not C3, but great tools and technique. For example people claiming large CMS moves are necessary on the 8G Pioneers are responding to measurement errors and not display errors. These displays require small moves to get the primaries and secondaries very close. Measuring primaries and secondaries accurately requires exceptional tools. If you do not have these do not mess with these things unless the errors are large or visible to the eye.You make very good points, Jeff. There is a truth in that a calibration is only as good as the quality of your tools and the experience and know-how of the calibrator.

I based my post not only on my measurements since I know that I have a low end instrument, but also from the findings of others which have better instruments and finally my own eyes in that i find that using the 9 point controls for 10% does give better results in shadow detail. Perhaps there's a difference between EU and US 8G models in this regard(?). I should have made it clear that I was talking about the EU 8G Pioneer PDP.

I agree with you about the Pioneer Color Management. Best left alone or only for very small adjustment and fortunately Pioneer 8G doesn't require much adjustment to the colors, I can see that with my eyes alone.

Thanks for your helpful reply. It's always good to be reminded not to put too much focus and trust in your instrument, especially if is a low end one, and remember to use your own eyes at all times. :)