...that there is some kind of "artificial sharpness" that cannot be defeated when using a so-called "Standard" picture mode on a Sony RP set? I believe I read this in a tweaks/setting thread on here some time back, but if memory serves, there was only speculation as to whether or not sharpness was artificially "added" in this mode.

When calibrating my set in this mode, it seems sharpness does not go up or down based on the test pattern I'm using, so I'm wondering if there is an artificial sharpness that cannot be defeated.

Also, when using the hidden calibration menus on Sony Blu-rays, what should I be looking for when it gets to the different screens, like that one for sharpness where all those graphics and lines fill the screen?

Thanks.

...that there is some kind of "artificial sharpness" that cannot be defeated when using a so-called "Standard" picture mode on a Sony RP set? I believe I read this in a tweaks/setting thread on here some time back, but if memory serves, there was only speculation as to whether or not sharpness was artificially "added" in this mode.

When calibrating my set in this mode, it seems sharpness does not go up or down based on the test pattern I'm using, so I'm wondering if there is an artificial sharpness that cannot be defeated.

Also, when using the hidden calibration menus on Sony Blu-rays, what should I be looking for when it gets to the different screens, like that one for sharpness where all those graphics and lines fill the screen?

Thanks.

You can't make any statements that cover all video display. Not even about a single brand, and not even about a specific variety of display. But, in general, in modern video displays, all the modes do have SOME behind-the-scenes processing that is not adjustable or defeatable. Most of these displays now have a mode that minimizes or eliminates all that processing. Some brands/models MAY have some level of sharpening that can't be defeated, but more likely, it is Edge Enhancement that can't be defeated. This is similar to Sharpness, but not exactly the same thing.

When viewing a test pattern for evidence of too much sharpening or too much edge enhancement, you want to be looking at black lines (horizontal and vertical) on a gray background. If there is any excess sharpening or edge enhancement, it will appear as a white edge between the black line and the gray background. Sometimes Sharpness affects only vertical lines, sometimes it affects horizontal and vertical lines. If you see white borders on horizontal and vertical lines, but you turn Sharpness down until the vertical lines look good (no white borders) and find the horizontal lines still have white borders, there is some other control that will have to be turned off. It might be Edge Enhancement, it might have some other name.

On a few displays, the engineers seem to be "disconnecting" it... there's still a slider you can adjust, but it does nothing. These engineers know sharpening harms picture quality so they just disable the control but leave it accessible so the marketing people are happy. On some displays the "0" setting for sharpness is "off" - which is always the best setting. But other displays may have "off" at 20 or 50 and if you go lower, the picture actually gets blurry. So you can't just turn sharpness down all the way on every display. You have to look at a test pattern to set it properly.

...that there is some kind of "artificial sharpness" that cannot be defeated when using a so-called "Standard" picture mode on a Sony RP set? I believe I read this in a tweaks/setting thread on here some time back, but if memory serves, there was only speculation as to whether or not sharpness was artificially "added" in this mode.Perhaps you could be a little more specific than "a Sony RP set". I know that the Sony KDS-xxA3000 in STANDARD picture mode that 720p (not 1080i) exhibits non-defeatable edge enhancement, that is not there in Custom or Cinema modes. But, as Doug points out, that may not be true about other models (for example KDS-xxE3000 or KDS-xxA2020).

Perhaps you could be a little more specific than "a Sony RP set". I know that the Sony KDS-xxA3000 in STANDARD picture mode that 720p (not 1080i) exhibits non-defeatable edge enhancement, that is not there in Custom or Cinema modes. But, as Doug points out, that may not be true about other models (for example KDS-xxE3000 or KDS-xxA2020).

Dave,

The set in question is a KDS-50A2020...I am feeding it only 1080p over HDMI for Blu-ray/DVD playback...would Standard have this non defeatable sharpness or enhancement then?

Dave,

The set in question is a KDS-50A2020...I am feeding it only 1080p over HDMI for Blu-ray/DVD playback...would Standard have this non defeatable sharpness or enhancement then?I cannot say regarding the A2020, which is definitely a different set than the A3000. You need to do your own evaluation using a sharpness test pattern (both horizontal and vertical lies) on a Blu Ray test DVD (either DVE HD Basics or AVS 709 HD).

I cannot say regarding the A2020, which is definitely a different set than the A3000. You need to do your own evaluation using a sharpness test pattern (both horizontal and vertical lies) on a Blu Ray test DVD (either DVE HD Basics or AVS 709 HD).

I have been waiting for a Blu-ray calibration disc; the secret menu in the Sony discs don't seem to be working for me. Would the DVE HD Basics walk me through the calibration steps, and is this necessary if I already calibrated using a standard DVD setup disc?

I have been waiting for a Blu-ray calibration disc; the secret menu in the Sony discs don't seem to be working for me. Would the DVE HD Basics walk me through the calibration steps, and is this necessary if I already calibrated using a standard DVD setup disc?Yes. But if you are technically adept you should check out the AVS ("burn-it-yourself") HD 709 DVD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496).

Would it be okay to simply continue to use my standard DVD resolution test calibration disc (even though I have an HDTV) rather than one of the high definition ones? I have read many online user reviews of the Video Essentials disc, and most say that they're not getting any different results compared to their DVD calibration disc settings...:confused:

Would it be okay to simply continue to use my standard DVD resolution test calibration disc (even though I have an HDTV) rather than one of the high definition ones? I have read many online user reviews of the Video Essentials disc, and most say that they're not getting any different results compared to their DVD calibration disc settings...:confused:


You won't see much difference for setting brighness or contrast. Color, tint, gray scale adjustments (requires instrumentation) and other adjustments will be off enough that you can only use a DVD to calibrate for DVD sources... HD sources would be off a little.

The updated educational material is worth the meager cost of getting the new version of 'DVE.' Personally, I have found that following what "most people say" will usually result in mediocrity at best or detriment at worst.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

The updated educational material is worth the meager cost of getting the new version of 'DVE.' Personally, I have found that following what "most people say" will usually result in mediocrity at best or detriment at worst.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"I agree emphatically with what Alan says!

Hi Guys...

Sorry for the delay in getting back to y'all; been a bit busy which I'm sure everyone could relate to...

Thank you everyone for your input with this Sharpness issue. While much of it was a bit on the technical side for someone just trying to set their control correctly, I understand that the basic goal is to reduce that "ringing" that surrounds the edges when sharpness is up too high, but I am having an impossible time of seeing it on my A series set.

When I run DVD calibration discs (including the THX Optimizer to confirm the settings), the sharpness patterns don't seem to "matter"...what I mean by this is as I raise and lower the Sony's sharpness control with the bar patterns onscreen, there seems to be no difference as I go from the default "50" position down to zero...I see no loss or gain in those patterns. Now, that's why I had asked if it was confirmed if these sets have some kind of artificial sharpening that cannot be turned off if using anything other than Custom mode, of which I am not using Custom (for personal preferences). I think some of the horrible DVD upscaling issues I am having may be coming from the fact that my Sharpness control may be up too high -- but again, the test discs don't seem to change when I move the control.

HOWEVER -- and this is strange -- when I put in the Spider-Man 3 Blu-ray and got to the hidden calibration menu, that wild sharpness pattern screen with all the shapes and scopes indicated that SOMETHING was going on with my sharpness because when I moved the control up and down on that screen, the "blooming circles" off to the sides of the screen definitely changed...as I decreased sharpness, the bars in those circles got darker and the circles got darker...as I raised sharpness, the circles and lines got "whiter"...it was also confirmed, on this screen, that my set is in fact introducing overscan because I could not read the "16:9" graphics on the upper edges of the image...but I don't know where to go in my TV's setup to correct this, if it's even fixable. I have the screen alignment/position on NORMAL and the input for my Blu-ray player is set to Wide Mode FULL. There seems to be no way to correct for this "overscan" issue, aside from running amuck in the service menu, which I'm not doing on my own. Is this because my screen is simply applying overscan so 1:85.1 and 1:78.1 films can fill the screen properly? Guess that's another question for another day.

But as far as sharpness, I'm at a loss trying to ascertain whether or not this screen, in standard mode, is applying some kind of sharpness that cannot be defeated. The standard resolution DVD calibration disc sharpness patters aren't affected by the sharp control but the high definition calibration pattern on the Sony Blu-rays IS affecting the control...the weirdest thing.

I read in a recent issue of a home theater hobbyist magazine that as they were testing a new Sony LCD, they recommended "using restraint" with the sharpness control, and advised just leaving it on a setting of "15" for all sources to be sure. Could Standard mode be adding a sharpness that won't let me reduce it on the test discs? If so, then why does the pattern change on the Blu-ray test pattern?

Sorry to make all your eyes bleed with the words and long post...any help would be appreciated!

And thank you again, everyone, so far for your assistance.

You won't see much difference for setting brighness or contrast. Color, tint, gray scale adjustments (requires instrumentation) and other adjustments will be off enough that you can only use a DVD to calibrate for DVD sources... HD sources would be off a little.

Thanks very much Doug. So, in summation, there won't be that much of a difference between using an HD calibration disc and a standard def one?

What if the situation is like mine, where I use my BD player to watch DVDs, too; I have been relying on using the settings my standard DVD calibration disc provided (not too far off the defaults believe it or not, with just Picture/Contrast coming down 20 notches from default maximum) for DVD AND BD playback, but is this okay?

Thanks very much Doug. So, in summation, there won't be that much of a difference between using an HD calibration disc and a standard def one?

What if the situation is like mine, where I use my BD player to watch DVDs, too; I have been relying on using the settings my standard DVD calibration disc provided (not too far off the defaults believe it or not, with just Picture/Contrast coming down 20 notches from default maximum) for DVD AND BD playback, but is this okay?

If you are setting only black level and white level, not much difference. If you are using the disc for color with a blue filter or blue-only mode in the display, the DVD won't help you get HD right.

There are a whole SLEW of issues when you start talking about playing DVD in a Blu-ray player with some video display. Figuring out if the player and display are doing SD and HD color space and color matrix conversions properly is essentially impossible without instrumentation or a professional calibration. Different players and displays can do different things. If the display's primaries and secondaries are inaccurate, differences may not be noticeable. The color matrix issue may be handled properly but color space may not be handled properly (this is very common).

Using a DVD in a Blu-ray player for setting Brightness is fine. Setting contrast... you won't get much help because digital displays, especially LCD-based displays (or LCoS), don't do much when you run the Contrast control up and down the adjustment range. Peak white level goes up and down and that's about it. Without a meter, you won't know what the peak white level is at any given setting. You want 30 fL or so in a dark room, something more than that in a room with lights, and even more with daylight.

There's not any easy answers for this - video is a lot more complex than it used to be when there was one standard.

When I run DVD calibration discs (including the THX Optimizer to confirm the settings), the sharpness patterns don't seem to "matter"...what I mean by this is as I raise and lower the Sony's sharpness control with the bar patterns onscreen, there seems to be no difference as I go from the default "50" position down to zero...I see no loss or gain in those patterns. Now, that's why I had asked if it was confirmed if these sets have some kind of artificial sharpening that cannot be turned off if using anything other than Custom mode, of which I am not using Custom (for personal preferences). I think some of the horrible DVD upscaling issues I am having may be coming from the fact that my Sharpness control may be up too high -- but again, the test discs don't seem to change when I move the control.

Sony displays, especially the SXRD RPTVs don't do a very good job of upconversion of low-res sources. You will almost always be better off with a disc player that does the convesion to 1080p from 480. If you don't have that capability in the disc player, an AVR with a built-in Silicon Optix HQV processor or Gennum VXP processor will do a far better job of upconversion than the Sony displays.

It's not clear what you are saying here. You say the Sharpness control has no effect on the test pattern. Does that mean there is severe ringing in the test pattern that is unaffected by the Sharpness control or that there is no ringing in the test pattern (in which case there would be no issue)?

You really need to be in Custom mode for just about all your viewing.

As I mentioned before, there may be some other adjustment besides Sharpness that add contouring or ringing... if you have any other "features" turned on in the User Menu try turning them off to see if the contouring or ringing disappears.

HOWEVER -- and this is strange -- when I put in the Spider-Man 3 Blu-ray and got to the hidden calibration menu, that wild sharpness pattern screen with all the shapes and scopes indicated that SOMETHING was going on with my sharpness because when I moved the control up and down on that screen, the "blooming circles" off to the sides of the screen definitely changed...as I decreased sharpness, the bars in those circles got darker and the circles got darker...as I raised sharpness, the circles and lines got "whiter"...it was also confirmed, on this screen, that my set is in fact introducing overscan because I could not read the "16:9" graphics on the upper edges of the image...but I don't know where to go in my TV's setup to correct this, if it's even fixable. I have the screen alignment/position on NORMAL and the input for my Blu-ray player is set to Wide Mode FULL. There seems to be no way to correct for this "overscan" issue, aside from running amuck in the service menu, which I'm not doing on my own. Is this because my screen is simply applying overscan so 1:85.1 and 1:78.1 films can fill the screen properly? Guess that's another question for another day.

RPTVs ALL have overscan and always have. You can't change it or remove it. You are projecting an image onto a mirror that's on an angle and bouncing the image off the mirror and onto the screen. This is EXTREMELY difficult to do with absolute precision. Without overscan, you would likely see something objectionable on 1 or more edges of the image.

But as far as sharpness, I'm at a loss trying to ascertain whether or not this screen, in standard mode, is applying some kind of sharpness that cannot be defeated. The standard resolution DVD calibration disc sharpness patters aren't affected by the sharp control but the high definition calibration pattern on the Sony Blu-rays IS affecting the control...the weirdest thing.

Why are you so hung-up on Standard mode? The "factory" modes are almost always hosed as far as picture quality and color temperature selections go. One of them might be OK to use if there's a lot of light in the room because you won't necessarily see the "damage" those modes do in unfavorable conditions.

If you are sending both the DVD and Blu-ray as 1080p, there should be no difference... the display would have no clue that the DVD wasn't a high-def disc. There are settings in the player that change how the player sends various resolutions to the display. If the Info/Display button for the video display says 480 resolution when you are playing a DVD, you need to change the setting in the player to 1080p. If the video display says 1080p when a DVD is playing, the disc player is set right (the player is doing the upconversion and not the video display - but there are a lot of players that are no better at upconversion than the Sony displays so just having the player send 1080p may not make the image quality any better than if the player sends 480 resolution to the display.

I read in a recent issue of a home theater hobbyist magazine that as they were testing a new Sony LCD, they recommended "using restraint" with the sharpness control, and advised just leaving it on a setting of "15" for all sources to be sure. Could Standard mode be adding a sharpness that won't let me reduce it on the test discs? If so, then why does the pattern change on the Blu-ray test pattern?

NEVER assume that ANY setting or recommendation for 1 display has anything remotely to do with how some other display responds. Not even within the same brand. If they share the same chassis and only the screen size is different, the various controls probably have the same effect. But one year earlier, one year later... could be completely different. And you can NEVER assume that different technologies share anyhthing in common when it comes to how the controls operate.



xx

Perhaps you could be a little more specific than "a Sony RP set". I know that the Sony KDS-xxA3000 in STANDARD picture mode that 720p (not 1080i) exhibits non-defeatable edge enhancement, that is not there in Custom or Cinema modes. But, as Doug points out, that may not be true about other models (for example KDS-xxE3000 or KDS-xxA2020).You know who ClinicaTerra LTD is, right? You can explain this stuff over and over again and he'll never get it. So be careful about wasting too much time on this.