All,
I saw this article.
http://gizmodo.com/5013722/sony-hosts-xbr8-led-lcd-vs-plasma-shootout-youll-never-guess-who-wins
Some are saying that the Plasma that Sony put up against their XBR8 was a Kuro.
So what are you guys thoughts on this??
Personally I think the Kuro will still have the lead when the XBR8 is released. You have to remember, the pioneer 10G's are next year and they are ZERO idol luminance.
And blacks are just the start anyway, Plasma is still better with motion, viewing angles, etc.

Anyway I wanted to hear everyones thoughts on this.

I really dont think that that was a kuro. At least not one of the new ones. The blacks were too bluish.

All I know is that my 1150HD blacks are nothing like those on the right.

All,
I saw this article.
http://gizmodo.com/5013722/sony-hosts-xbr8-led-lcd-vs-plasma-shootout-youll-never-guess-who-wins
Some are saying that the Plasma that Sony put up against their XBR8 was a Kuro.
So what are you guys thoughts on this??
Personally I think the Kuro will still have the lead when the XBR8 is released. You have to remember, the pioneer 10G's are next year and they are ZERO idol luminance.
And blacks are just the start anyway, Plasma is still better with motion, viewing angles, etc.

Anyway I wanted to hear everyones thoughts on this.

Meaningless test if they don't name what the other panel is.

I wish I could get Sony's XBR8 at our shoot-out. We're putting Sony's XBR6 in our shoot out event against the 8G and 9G Kuros and several ohter respected flagship panels. Sony exec's if your listening, let give these Kuro's a run for the money.

-Robert

The Kuro's do have a 'glow' to their black levels. The 81 Series Sammy does have great blacks on "certain" scenes. You never know!

The 650 series LCDs are showing that LCD does have potential. The 81 I saw had too much variance in it's contrast. Great contrast one minute, washed out the next. Maybe Sony has taken this to the next level. I wonder what Samsung's 950 will fair.

IMO, competition is great! Give Pioneer some competition and drive the prices down. Just like HD-DVD did for blu-ray.

It will be interesting to hear some comparisons on these in the future.

The writer for that article made it pretty clear that it was a Pioneer that Sony used to demo the XBR8 against.

Obviously what no one knows is if the kuro was calibrated...it doesn't appear to be, which makes a night and day difference in my opinion. For all we know, Sony could have jacked that thing up to torch mode and bragged about how good their XBR8 looks next to it. Not saying they did do that, but no one knows for sure. It'd be swell if they would let independent testers take BOTH sets and calibrate them. Then do a head to head and call a winner.

But that would mean one forum or the other would finally have to stop whining, and we all know that won't happen :p

the tv on the right looks like a kuro alright. it has that small blue LED light at the bottom left bezel. and the kuro blacks can look bluish.

http://gizmodo.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2008/06/Bravia_Shootout_2.jpg

http://gizmodo.com/assets/images/gallery/4/2008/05/medium_2473230435_8a352dd968_o.jpg

Pioneer did a similar shootout at their launch, now sony is giving them a taste of their own medicine. it's only fair :D

The writer for that article made it pretty clear that it was a Pioneer that Sony used to demo the XBR8 against.

Obviously what no one knows is if the kuro was calibrated...it doesn't appear to be, which makes a night and day difference in my opinion. For all we know, Sony could have jacked that thing up to torch mode and bragged about how good their XBR8 looks next to it. Not saying they did do that, but no one knows for sure. It'd be swell if they would let independent testers take BOTH sets and calibrate them. Then do a head to head and call a winner.

But that would mean one forum or the other would finally have to stop whining, and we all know that won't happen :p

He did? How so? I'm petty sure that's what he wants you to think, but there's nothing there to tell you what it is. Why didn't he just come out and say it then?

:confused:

He did? How so? I'm petty sure that's what he wants you to think, but there's nothing there to tell you what it is. Why didn't he just come out and say it then?

:confused:

He didn't say it in the article, but down in the comments he posted because one of the commenters wasn't quite getting what he was saying. I'm not sure if he was bound by some sort of NDA or what, but the fourth and fifth comments on that story pretty much clear it up.

Regardless of what brand it is or if they were calibrated or not, congrats to Sony for pushing out a great performing LCD. This kind of innovation is great for the industry, if not for our checkbooks :p

That's likely an 8th Gen. I'd very much doubt Sony PR got a hold of 9Gen Elites. Impressive if they managed to!

Reading the article the Sony seems to have this certain feature "Advanced Contrast Enhancer PRO" turned on. The drawbacks of this feature, if any, will ultimately determine the real life advantage of it.

Credit to Sony for putting on an impressive demo however. I expect Samsung to be the next to talk about the 950's.

In the end, we could have a close battle between the Pioneer Elite/XBR8/Samsung 950 and the rumored LG super plasma.

To take my money, black levels, color accuracy, motion resolution, off axis viewing and uniformity will all take equal footing.

He didn't say it in the article, but down in the comments he posted because one of the commenters wasn't quite getting what he was saying. I'm not sure if he was bound by some sort of NDA or what, but the fourth and fifth comments on that story pretty much clear it up.

:p

Why would he be prohibited from telling the truth? It really doesn't matter to me which one is better or if they are both equal I would just like to see independent blind testing. Not some test where a person kind of insinuates what brand it might be. I would also like a model number for it to mean something. He said what brand and model the LCD was so why not on the plasma?

In the end, we could have a close battle between the Pioneer Elite/XBR8/Samsung 950 and the rumored LG super plasma.

.

And all the better for the consumer when the different makers battle each other. Hopefully it creates not only better panels, but also cheaper prices. Gotta love competition.

:D

Why would he be prohibited from telling the truth? It really doesn't matter to me which one is better or if they are both equal I would just like to see independent blind testing. Not some test where a person kind of insinuates what brand it might be. I would also like a model number for it to mean something. He said what brand and model the LCD was so why not on the plasma?

I wondered the exact same thing. I asked him directly through both the comments section and email what model the XBR8 was going head to head against, but I haven't gotten a reply yet. As you and I both have said, regardless of the exact model or make, the fact of the matter is that Sony appears to have made an excellent LCD (I'd like to see some independent testing, but that will come in due time) and thats great for the market, but more importantly for the consumer.

This looks to be an amazing year for HDTV with the 9G Pioneers, the Samsung 950 series and the Sony XBR8's running the show. Hopefully we can see this increase in quality and innovation get matched with a reduction in price. Something tells me I'll be waiting a little longer for that, though :rolleyes:

At the very least it's worthy of one of us getting an XBR8 and a 9G Kuro in the same room, with calibration tools, and see how they compare when they're both set up to their maximum.

Bet you can't touch that Sony for less then $12k. Kinda hard to swallow the Kuro prices, the Sony price will be obscene.

At the very least it's worthy of one of us getting an XBR8 and a 9G Kuro in the same room, with calibration tools, and see how they compare when they're both set up to their maximum.

Is sharpjunkie or johnnybrulez up for this again? ;)

the tv on the right looks like a kuro alright. it has that small blue LED light at the bottom left bezel. and the kuro blacks can look bluish.

http://gizmodo.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2008/06/Bravia_Shootout_2.jpg

http://gizmodo.com/assets/images/gallery/4/2008/05/medium_2473230435_8a352dd968_o.jpg

Pioneer did a similar shootout at their launch, now sony is giving them a taste of their own medicine. it's only fair :D


Sounds like someone coming here to bash, and someone who never owned a Kuro. Probably a Sony LCD guy.
Am I wrong?

To take my money, black levels, color accuracy, motion resolution, off axis viewing and uniformity will all take equal footing.


Have they done something to rid LCD's of blur for the XBR8 or Sammy 950?

All,
I saw this article.
http://gizmodo.com/5013722/sony-hosts-xbr8-led-lcd-vs-plasma-shootout-youll-never-guess-who-wins
Some are saying that the Plasma that Sony put up against their XBR8 was a Kuro.
So what are you guys thoughts on this??
Personally I think the Kuro will still have the lead when the XBR8 is released. You have to remember, the pioneer 10G's are next year and they are ZERO idol luminance.
And blacks are just the start anyway, Plasma is still better with motion, viewing angles, etc.

Anyway I wanted to hear everyones thoughts on this.


Any half way descent CRT from craigslist would have smoked both of these displays in this test.

Any half way descent CRT from craigslist would have smoked both of these displays in this test.

Yep, in glorious 480i.

Is sharpjunkie or johnnybrulez up for this again? ;)

I think that Sharpjunkie is too busy enjoying his 5080 Kuro right now to do another comparison thread. :)

I wondered the exact same thing. I asked him directly through both the comments section and email what model the XBR8 was going head to head against, but I haven't gotten a reply yet. As you and I both have said, regardless of the exact model or make, the fact of the matter is that Sony appears to have made an excellent LCD (I'd like to see some independent testing, but that will come in due time) and thats great for the market, but more importantly for the consumer.

This looks to be an amazing year for HDTV with the 9G Pioneers, the Samsung 950 series and the Sony XBR8's running the show. Hopefully we can see this increase in quality and innovation get matched with a reduction in price. Something tells me I'll be waiting a little longer for that, though :rolleyes:

It'll be interesting to see if he responds to you but it appears he's being allusive on releasing the facts for a reason. Be sure to post back if he reveals the other panel. The Sony does appear to be a very nice set as their XBR's have always been some of the top panels, albeit at a very high price.

Sounds like someone coming here to bash, and someone who never owned a Kuro. Probably a Sony LCD guy.
Am I wrong?

did I struck a nerve somewhere? :D
I was just pointing out the obvious for those who still doubt that the one on the right is a kuro. pioneer did the same thing last month. and when did I bash the kuro? and what does me owning one have to do with it? i'm neither a fan of LCD nor plasma, but I do know which looks better. ;)

And which tech is that?
Owning a Kuro would grant you the personal knowledge that Kuro's black look nothing like that.

And which tech is that?
Owning a Kuro would grant you the personal knowledge that Kuro's black look nothing like that.

I find these pictures quite similar:

http://gizmodo.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2008/06/Bravia_Shootout_2.jpg

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/01/pioneer-contrastconcept00.jpg

And which tech is that?
Owning a Kuro would grant you the personal knowledge that Kuro's black look nothing like that.

I don't have to own the Kuro to know that its blacks look nothing like that. I was just pointing out the fact that the blacks on the kuro can look bluish depending on the camera overexposure/shutter speed. and wasn't it just last month most were praising how great the kuros look compared to the rest when they did their shootout? so this is no different. thanks for the nice pic xbr8 ;)

Have they done something to rid LCD's of blur for the XBR8 or Sammy 950?
Samsung uses backlight strobing on their LED LCDs to reduce the effect. It remains to be seen if Sony will add a similar feature.

Is this incorporated into the Sammy 750?

Is this incorporated into the Sammy 750?

No it isn't as far as I know.

As I understand it the 81 still has the highest rated motion resolution of any LCD thanks to this (800 lines, which is just 100 lines short of the 5010 Kuro)

Hey all,

I just got a reply back from Wilson Rothman, the writer of that article for Gizmodo. He said that he's not permitted to say specifically what brand the plasma was (some sort of NDA), but essentially we're idiots if we think it was anything other than a Pioneer...the riddle in the story itself and the 4th and 5th comments pretty much sum it up. Interesting to note though, he also said that since there is really only one panel available right now, its a given. (Referencing the 6020)

He also confirmed that it was the KDL-55XBR8...pretty much confirming (at least in my mind) that its a 6020, as those two screens look to be about the same size.

***VERY IMPORTANT NOTE***: Wilson mentioned in his email that he thought the 6020 looked like they had jacked the brightness or some other setting up, and he wasn't the only one to notice it in the room.

Just this year the XBR4 was for sale, how in the hell did we get XBR8 the same year?

Just this year the XBR4 was for sale, how in the hell did we get XBR8 the same year?

There was a XBR5 released last year also.

This year, it'll be XBR6 and XBR7, evolving from the XBR4/XBR5. The XBR8 is new tech all together.

the tv on the right looks like a kuro alright. it has that small blue LED light at the bottom left bezel. and the kuro blacks can look bluish.

http://gizmodo.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2008/06/Bravia_Shootout_2.jpg

http://gizmodo.com/assets/images/gallery/4/2008/05/medium_2473230435_8a352dd968_o.jpg

Pioneer did a similar shootout at their launch, now sony is giving them a taste of their own medicine. it's only fair :D

MY 5080 never looked anything like the pictures in that article. IMO there is no question that the settings on the Kuro (if it really is a Kuro) were adjusted to give this Bluish look.

I wish I could get Sony's XBR8 at our shoot-out. We're putting Sony's XBR6 in our shoot out event against the 8G and 9G Kuros and several ohter respected flagship panels. Sony exec's if your listening, let give these Kuro's a run for the money.

-Robert

I was actually going to go into the Flatpanelshootout thread and ask you this.lol
Is the XBR8 going to be released by then? I don't think it will, will it? I am hearing that it will be released this year.

It would be a good compare. But I still think the Kuro will win overall.

Samsung already tried to beat a kuro with thier LED-backlit LCD (81F) and Lost: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/features/779/plasma-vs-lcd-round-ii.html
http://gizmodo.com/336498/best-plasma-ever-vs-best-lcd-ever-verdict-plasma-wins

Is sharpjunkie or johnnybrulez up for this again? ;)

Yes, This is a job for SharpJunkie!

It would be a good compare. But I still think the Kuro will win overall.

Samsung already tried to beat a kuro with thier LED-backlit LCD (81F) and Lost:

First: this is Kuro vs Sony thread. Not Kuro vs Samsung thread.

Second: Kuro should win in off angle viewing angles and possible have slight edge in motion resolution. Remember to mention those things in every XBR8 thread, so that everyone would have the wisdom to choose 9G.

Be a fan of good picture, not display technology or brand.

Hey all,

I just got a reply back from Wilson Rothman, the writer of that article for Gizmodo. He said that he's not permitted to say specifically what brand the plasma was (some sort of NDA), but essentially we're idiots if we think it was anything other than a Pioneer...the riddle in the story itself and the 4th and 5th comments pretty much sum it up. Interesting to note though, he also said that since there is really only one panel available right now, its a given. (Referencing the 6020)

He also confirmed that it was the KDL-55XBR8...pretty much confirming (at least in my mind) that its a 6020, as those two screens look to be about the same size.

***VERY IMPORTANT NOTE***: Wilson mentioned in his email that he thought the 6020 looked like they had jacked the brightness or some other setting up, and he wasn't the only one to notice it in the room.Could have been a 6010 ;)

What is the exposure time of those shots? The XBR8 definitely looks good. However, It's kinda odd that he left those details out.

I wish we could get Sony's XBR8 for my flat panel shoot out, Sony exec's are you listening.... Samsung lost by a mile in the shoot-out I have already seen and the trailing glow around the darker images looked bad.
No doubt someone will build a panel with the black level and contrast ratio the 9G Kuro's achieve today, but why wait any longer.

-Robert

I was actually going to go into the Flatpanelshootout thread and ask you this.lol
Is the XBR8 going to be released by then? I don't think it will, will it? I am hearing that it will be released this year.

It would be a good compare. But I still think the Kuro will win overall.

Samsung already tried to beat a kuro with thier LED-backlit LCD (81F) and Lost: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/features/779/plasma-vs-lcd-round-ii.html
http://gizmodo.com/336498/best-plasma-ever-vs-best-lcd-ever-verdict-plasma-wins

Hey all,

I just got a reply back from Wilson Rothman, the writer of that article for Gizmodo.
***VERY IMPORTANT NOTE***: Wilson mentioned in his email that he thought the 6020 looked like they had jacked the brightness or some other setting up, and he wasn't the only one to notice it in the room.

I have not said this yet as I was waiting for D-Nice and others to comment first, but when I was at the Elite Dealer Road Show they had a shoot-ou room set up with the 8G and 9G Kuros and several other well respected flagship panels and I easily noticed whiter whites on the 9G vs. the 8G Kuro. A VP of development told me yes we were able to improve the brightness without slipping the whites.

So lets wait for the experts to confirm, but I think we'll all be happy with Pioneer's advancements.

-Robert

First: this is Kuro vs Sony thread. Not Kuro vs Samsung thread.


Yes but it would be dumb not to take into consideration the results of how the only other LED-backlit display on the market did against and 8G Kuro.
Especially when Samsung makes Sony Panels.
So I don't think its at all off topic.

First: this is Kuro vs Sony thread. Not Kuro vs Samsung thread.

Second: Kuro should win in off angle viewing angles and possible have slight edge in motion resolution. Remember to mention those things in every XBR8 thread, so that everyone would have the wisdom to choose 9G.

Be a fan of good picture, not display technology or brand.Why the need to hide behind a new member name?

Why the need to hide behind a new member name?

yeh sonyxbr8, how dare you! stop hiding your real identity, we all know you're a sony LCD fanboy! now tell us your real member name that you've been using so that the plasma/kuro gods could expose you for the shill that you are!

;) :p:D

The 55XBR8 seems like it will be nice but Sony should have made a 60in available this year. They also should make their XBR's a Simulated glass design.

Is the XBR8 going to be released by then? I don't think it will, will it? I am hearing that it will be released this year.
Sony released a press releasing confirming it a couple of days back. Too late for them to take it back now.

It would be a good compare. But I still think the Kuro will win overall.
It may well win. For those of us who would rather have an LCD than a plasma even having a screen nearly as good as a Kuro is still quite the boon.

Samsung already tried to beat a kuro with thier LED-backlit LCD (81F) and Lost: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/features/779/plasma-vs-lcd-round-ii.html
http://gizmodo.com/336498/best-plasma-ever-vs-best-lcd-ever-verdict-plasma-wins
The 81F was a first generation LED + Local Dimming display and had a number of technical shortcuts to make it possible including a small number of dimming zones (8x12) and a limited range of backlight control (6 bit). It would be pretty unfair to place the entirity of its worth on whether or not it could beat the Pioneer.


The 55XBR8 seems like it will be nice but Sony should have made a 60in available this year. They also should make their XBR's a Simulated glass design.
Sony can't make 60"ers. They're limited to what sizes the S-LCD factory in Korea can make economically, and anything over 52" spirals away exponentially.

XBR8 could potentially be much better than Samsung 81. It has RGB LEDs and a different dimming algorithm which is significant. True potential of this set will not be known until Sony reveals the number of clusters and their bit depths.

XBR8 could potentially be much better than Samsung 81. It has RGB LEDs and a different dimming algorithm which is significant. True potential of this set will not be known until Sony reveals the number of clusters and their bit depths.

I totally agree. I have always preferred Sony LCDs to Samsung.
Thats why I took my 71F back and got the XBR4.
IMO the XBR8 will be sonys answer to the new Samsung LCD's (650/750) that seem to outdo the XBR4.
I think the XBR8 will be a good leap for LCD and will be the best LCD by a small margin at least for a little while.
I was hoping that LCD would continue to see wht it can do wirth LED backlighting. And being that Sony is the one doing it this time around, I think will make the XBR8 one heck of a set.
But enough to beat a 9G Kuro?? I have my doubts.
I still think Plasma has more potential than LCD. A tech that illuminates the actual pixels instead of using backlighting just looks better IMO. If we can get everyone past the Burn-in bologna then I think more companys will continue to advance plasma which wiill push flat panel tech to new boundaries

I totally agree. I have always preferred Sony LCDs to Samsung.
Thats why I took my 71F back and got the XBR4.
IMO the XBR8 will be sonys answer to the new Samsung LCD's (650/750) that seem to outdo the XBR4.
I think the XBR8 will be a good leap for LCD and will be the best LCD by a small margin at least for a little while.
I was hoping that LCD would continue to see wht it can do wirth LED backlighting. And being that Sony is the one doing it this time around, I think will make the XBR8 one heck of a set.
But enough to beat a 9G Kuro?? I have my doubts.
I still think Plasma has more potential than LCD. A tech that illuminates the actual pixels instead of using backlighting just looks better IMO. If we can get everyone past the Burn-in bologna then I think more companys will continue to advance plasma which wiill push flat panel tech to new boundaries

Why do people compare things that are not of relevance? You can't compare the xbr8 to a 6/7 series. When the 950 comes out, compare it to that, because it is of the same genre. No one compares filet mignon to flank steak, or do they?

Anyway, the xbr8 looks good, although I'm sure those images (or panels for that matter) have been skewed in Sonys favor.

I want to know how these LCDs look when viewed/photographed from an off-angle? Sony may indeed be able to match the Kuros black level when displaying a totally (or near totally) black screen, but that doesn't mean they have fixed the other LCD issues, such as poor viewing angles, screen uniformity and especially motion blur. Who knows what kind of artifacts these new "Triluminos" LED systems bring with them? Are there going to be blocky halos around every star in a starfield? What about fast moving high contrast images?

I think this whole LED backlight thing with all their "clusters" of LEDs illuminating the pixels is kind of a like a Rube Goldberg machine -trying to achieve what plasma has been able to do all along, namely, pixels that emit their own light. By 2010/2011 Pioneer (and perhaps other plasma manufactures) will be selling plasmas that have ZERO idle luminance, effectively going as far as you can in that crucial area of display performance.

Another thing to consider is the cost of building these LCDs with all the "clusters" of LEDs. You have to wonder if this tech will ever go mainstream if it eliminates LCDs main advantage over plasma, cost.

Does anyone know what Sony is going to charge for the 55" XBR8?
I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were more expensive than Pioneer's PRO-151FD.

Could have been a 6010 ;)

What is the exposure time of those shots? The XBR8 definitely looks good. However, It's kinda odd that he left those details out.

It could have been, but the impression I was getting was that it was a NEW Pioneer, hence the 6020. But either way, 6010 or 6020, both are at the top of the plasma pile (HDTV pile in general, IMHO ;)) and are the gold standard for black levels.

I agree with what you're saying, though, D-Nice. I mentioned that Wilson was under some sort of NDA (not sure why, if I was Sony I would be trying to show off everything possible after Pioneer smoked them earlier this year). I think we are all going to have to wait until the July shootout to really see what these things can do

I think it would be silly if the Sonys were at a comparable price to that of the Pio. I'm not saying that the Sonys won't be capable of producing a beautiful image. But the disadvantages of an lcd in comparison to the excellent pq of the Elite would make one imagine what would sway someone willing to pay such a hefty price tag for something of an inferior pq (regardless of how large or small that may be)?

I will say this, Sony does have a substantial fan base, due to the reutation they have made for themselbes through the years, with outstanding customer servie, and product reliability, alongside of those with the ability to purchase a product of this magnitude without any peril to thier bankroll. Couple with the fact that a majority of general customer base are still misinformed at to plasmas inability to avoid image retention (which btw is the number one reason why people refuse to buy plasmas).

As for viewing the angles, I must say that the higher end lcd's don't suffer as much from the off axis viewing angles, or blurring. Screen uniformity is still quite an issue, although not all panels are as severe, it truly does vary panel to panel of the same exact make and model.

Although I touched base on what a projected price may be in the first paragraph, I wouldn't be surprised if sony did in fact put a ridiculous price tag on it. I bet it will be marked higher than even the 950, which some are speculating to be one of the best led backlit lcd panels to date.

I guess only time will tell, but I will say this... No matter the price tag, Sony's will sell, regardless of pq inferiority.

One more thing, I think the 81 series was a botched, feeble attempt at led backlit technology. Viewing angles were much worse than even the 71 series (which were actually pretty good)

I haven't really followed the Samsung 81 series LCD threads, but I wonder, if the LEDs are susceptible to uneven wear (burn-in)? To me, it seems that any display creating light from multiple points (Plasma, CRT and LED LCD) could be vulnerable to uneven wear. Not that you could burn-in a network logo or gaming HUD (because the light isn't created at the pixel level), but say, you spent all your time watching 2.40:1 movies or 4:3 programs on an LCD that used clusters of LEDs, wouldn't that wear out the LEDs in the center of the screen while the LEDs on the top and bottom (or sides) would still be as bright as the day you bought the TV?

It's not like LEDs last forever is it?

You actually raise a very good point. I'm not exactly certain, but the fact they have to be passed through a diffuser, and whatever light that isnt being used is basically recycled, one would imagine that excessive light would be passed to compensate from lack of uniformity?

From my undertsanding, led lifespan is strictly contingent of the ability to control enviorment it is exposed to. Degradation of pq should be maintained much longer than typical lcd backlights currently being implemented. Do they last forever? No, they don't.

Why do people compare things that are not of relevance? You can't compare the xbr8 to a 6/7 series. When the 950 comes out, compare it to that, because it is of the same genre. No one compares filet mignon to flank steak, or do they?

Anyway, the xbr8 looks good, although I'm sure those images (or panels for that matter) have been skewed in Sonys favor.

I didn't know that Samsung was releasing another LCD this year much less an LED backlit one. I thought Samsung had given up on LED backlighting since sales of the 81F was so bad. Hope it doesn't reflect as bad as most of thier new LCD's do. If so then it may have an even harder time beating the XBR8.
But I agree with HDPEET, I am curious if both will still be plagued with Horrible motion handling, bad viewing angles, and the overbrightened unnatural look.
The Kuro's do just about everything better. I mean why deal with all the LCD problems? Just get a kuro and be done with it

I haven't really followed the Samsung 81 series LCD threads, but I wonder, if the LEDs are susceptible to uneven wear (burn-in)? To me, it seems that any display creating light from multiple points (Plasma, CRT and LED LCD) could be vulnerable to uneven wear. Not that you could burn-in a network logo or gaming HUD (because the light isn't created at the pixel level), but say, you spent all your time watching 2.40:1 movies or 4:3 programs on an LCD that used clusters of LEDs, wouldn't that wear out the LEDs in the center of the screen while the LEDs on the top and bottom (or sides) would still be as bright as the day you bought thGood questione TV?

It's not like LEDs last forever is it?


Good question,
I am a manufacturing Engineer for General Electric and I program/calibrate optical inspection machines (AOI's) for extremely fine pitch small Surface mount components (SMT) that are on the computer boards we build.
These machines use greyscale/histogram/color matching to match the pixels of a "template" of the markings/solders/color of these small components to the actual circuit board being inspected.
In an easy way to explain it : we take a picture (image template) of a good component and store it in the machine as a "template". Then the machine looks at our boards and compares the "template" to the component on the board being inspected. The machine will Fail the component if a percentage of the pixels greyscale/histogram/color do not match the template in memory. There are usually over a thousand of these tiny components that the machine inspects per board.
Anyway, The cameras in these machines use LED's for illumination much like the LED's used in an LED backlit LCD.
We have to replace these LEDs evey 2-3 months due to uneven aging of the LED's which causes the "templates" to give false failures becasue the color/greyscale/histograms to not match anymore due to illumination changes.
This makes me also wonder if LED backllighting can suffer from this.

Are there going to be blocky halos around every star in a starfield? What about fast moving high contrast images?
That'll depend on how their algorithms handle such things. Like with dynamic irises on projectors I doubt they're going to get it 100% perfect right off the bat, but after a few attempts I expect at least some of the companies will get it close enough most people will find it acceptable.

I think this whole LED backlight thing with all their "clusters" of LEDs illuminating the pixels is kind of a like a Rube Goldberg machine -trying to achieve what plasma has been able to do all along, namely, pixels that emit their own light. By 2010/2011 Pioneer (and perhaps other plasma manufactures) will be selling plasmas that have ZERO idle luminance, effectively going as far as you can in that crucial area of display performance.

Another thing to consider is the cost of building these LCDs with all the "clusters" of LEDs. You have to wonder if this tech will ever go mainstream if it eliminates LCDs main advantage over plasma, cost.
Oh, it's most certainly a Rube Goldberg machine, but LCDs (of both the TV and projector kind) are full of all thoughts of hair brained-sounding approaches to solve the various (and numerous) technical limitations of the technology. The structure of the pixels in modern PVA and IPS LCD panels is so waywardly complex it boggles the mind that they'd go to all that effort, for example.

But that's the nature of LCD. The fact that they're so cheap to produce on a massive scale offsets the ridiculously large R&D costs and factory costs. CRT, plasma and DLP are all rather straightforward technologies at their core, but that means there's limited scope to improve the technology year-on-year. They can't just make the same quality of display 20% cheaper in a year, every year, and sooner or later have to cut quality to remain competitive. Or alternatively watch their market share drop.

LED lit LCDs may sound really expensive, but they're really not. Once production ramps up and the R&D investment has payed off the tech will work it's way down the product line. I fully expect for M-series Sonys selling in Costco or whatever to end up packing RGB LEDs, maybe not in the next five years but 10 or so years from now.

Does anyone know what Sony is going to charge for the 55" XBR8?
I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were more expensive than Pioneer's PRO-151FD.
My understanding is that it'll be more expensive inch-for-inch than the non-Elite Kuro. How it'll compare price wise to the Elite remains to be seen.

I haven't really followed the Samsung 81 series LCD threads, but I wonder, if the LEDs are susceptible to uneven wear (burn-in)?
Displays marked as having "white LEDs" don't actually have white LEDs (obviously, when you think about it) but have a single, high output and cheap to produce colour of LED with some coated with green phosphors, some red, some blue. As of now it's cheaper to produce them this way than to use the LEDs as primary illuminatants. As with all phosphor techs they will drop off in output over their lifespan. As the duty cycle is much higher (because of sample and hold) their lifespan will not be as high as in a CRT I would imagine, but as they won't be getting the high voltage rough treatment one might find in a cheap plasma I doubt they'll burn in in the sense of getting a ghosted logo or similar.

Non coated LEDs don't really drop in output (well they do, but it's more of statistical significance than something you'd notice with your eyes), but have a fixed lifespan and will just stop producing some day. Some colours last longer than others and higher output and lower cost LEDs don't last as long. LEDs dying before their time is a very real possibility (more so if a company pushes the envelope a bit too hard) and will probably leave a dark spot on the picture. I expect this will be treated the same way as stuck pixels - an easy warrenty return on high end sets and a "too bad" on cheap ones.

but say, you spent all your time watching 2.40:1 movies or 4:3 programs on an LCD that used clusters of LEDs, wouldn't that wear out the LEDs in the center of the screen while the LEDs on the top and bottom (or sides) would still be as bright as the day you bought the TV?
With coated LEDs, yes, that is certainly conceiveable. I imagine it'd be a much slower process than with a plasma though.

I didn't know that Samsung was releasing another LCD this year much less an LED backlit one. I thought Samsung had given up on LED backlighting since sales of the 81F was so bad.
It wasn't really intended as a mass production item. The best way to look at it would be to regard the 81F (and the Sony Qualias and 70XBR3) as a public beta. The same will be true for the first OLEDs, as Sony have shown.

None of this can be regarded as mature technology.

Hope it doesn't reflect as bad as most of thier new LCD's do.
For this year's LED LCDs we have one of each.

LG - Matte
Sony - Semi-gloss
Samsung - Gloss

But I agree with HDPEET, I am curious if both will still be plagued with Horrible motion handling, bad viewing angles, and the overbrightened unnatural look.
The Kuro's do just about everything better. I mean why deal with all the LCD problems? Just get a kuro and be done with it
Motion handling is a fair cop, but viewing angles gets blown out of proportion IMO.

That "overbrightened" look is simply a matter of calibration. Calibrated properly with actually usable white levels LCDs look more like plasmas than they do different. This is basically just a case of FUD, just like people who try to tell you a plasma will burn in within an hour or that bulbs in rear projectors have a particularly high chance of blowing.


Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, I'm technology neutral. Everything has strengths and weaknesses and not everything people claim is a weakness actually is.

It wasn't really intended as a mass production item. The best way to look at it would be to regard the 81F (and the Sony Qualias and 70XBR3) as a public beta. The same will be true for the first OLEDs, as Sony have shown.

None of this can be regarded as mature technology.


For this year's LED LCDs we have one of each.

LG - Matte
Sony - Semi-gloss
Samsung - Gloss


Motion handling is a fair cop, but viewing angles gets blown out of proportion IMO.

That "overbrightened" look is simply a matter of calibration. Calibrated properly with actually usable white levels LCDs look more like plasmas than they do different. This is basically just a case of FUD, just like people who try to tell you a plasma will burn in within an hour or that bulbs in rear projectors have a particularly high chance of blowing.


Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, I'm technology neutral. Everything has strengths and weaknesses and not everything people claim is a weakness actually is.

Very good read and informational Carled.

I'm a bit confused. When exactly is this XBR8 due to be released? I read that the XBR6 and 7 will be released about the same time around August/September of 2008. It seems kind of foolish for this panel to be compared to current and past generation sets if it's still over a year away. Also, why is Sony going to be releasing a 6 and 7 series at the same time?

I'm a bit confused. When exactly is this XBR8 due to be released? I read that the XBR6 and 7 will be released about the same time around August/September of 2008. It seems kind of foolish for this panel to be compared to current and past generation sets if it's still over a year away. Also, why is Sony going to be releasing a 6 and 7 series at the same time?
The 6, 7 and 8 are coming at the same time. Releasing two models of XBRs is something Sony do every year, so they can charge an exclusivity charge for the higher numbered one even if the picture quality is the same. This year they're throwing in a third model (the 8) so they can finally get their overly expensive LED tech into the marketplace.

i'm neither a fan of LCD nor plasma, but I do know which looks better. ;)

Not from poorly presented pictures displayed on your computer's LCD monitor you don't.

No matter how many times it's pointed out that you can never make judgements on any display from digital camera pictures displayed on your LCD monitor, people will continue to do so. You can lead a horse to water.........

Not from poorly presented pictures displayed on your computer's LCD monitor you don't.

No matter how many times it's pointed out that you can never make judgements on any display from digital camera pictures displayed on your LCD monitor, people will continue to do so. You can lead a horse to water.........

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12753438#post12753438

You are wrong! This IS what the 8g looks like in person. The fact is that if there's any significant light on the screen (such as the fireworks pictued), the 8g WILL look utterly black....they certainly do on my two Kuros! They sure as heck don't look like the screen on the left...that looks like a 2nd gen plasma from 5 years ago. :rolleyes:

:confused:

That's the best representation I could capture of what I actually saw. You're gonna have to trust me—it looked like that.

Looks like we're in for the biggest Sony PR offensive since Rear Projection LCD.

Flat panel lcd has much better pq than rear lcd. But rear lcd had less blurr.

If sony can fix blurr and the halos around dark objects flat lcd is pretty damn good. Not quite the purity of plasma but better whites, less noise-false contouring, and no image retention.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12753438#post12753438



:confused:

Check my post....you're correct in quoting Wilson that the demo "is what it looked like in person". However, that isn't taking into account the fact that the plasma looked, and I quote: "I do agree that the thing probably had something totally jacked up--Gary Merson thought so too."

So....that picture is perfect representation of a faulty demo ;)


Fact of the matter is that we aren't going to know one way or another until they get both get ISF calibrated and are put head to head in an INDEPENDENT shootout.

I also notice at the store from a angle the blacks look worse on lcd. But from a straight on view when the screen goes all black the samsungs i'm sad to say fades to black much better than the 8g. Even the 71 series. Hopefully the 9G can do as good. The new sony's should be on par or better than samsungs. The 9g elite-signature- vs the 55xbr will be the best tv's in 2008 no doubt.

Check my post....you're correct in quoting Wilson that the demo "is what it looked like in person".

But isn't this pretty impressive performance from any display? Personally I have seen only the Sony XEL-1 displaying similar blending completely into the bezel blacks.

But isn't this pretty impressive performance from any display? Personally I have seen only the Sony XEL-1 displaying similar blending completely into the bezel blacks.

Come on man stop hiding behind that new username and show yourself. lol
The mods still know who you are becasue of your IP address. lol.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12753438#post12753438



:confused:

I was referencing the appearance of black in the picture. It was meant to give people an idea of how black the picture can appear in person.

First: this is Kuro vs Sony thread. Not Kuro vs Samsung thread.

Second: Kuro should win in off angle viewing angles and possible have slight edge in motion resolution. Remember to mention those things in every XBR8 thread, so that everyone would have the wisdom to choose 9G.

Be a fan of good picture, not display technology or brand.

Ironic considering your newly chosen name. ;)

http://displaydaily.com/2008/06/09/lcds-and-the-city/
The 55-inch KDL-55XBR8 got plenty of attention from the press, particularly in the upstairs demo room where it was matched against an "unnamed" current model 50-inch plasma "that begins with a P."

Sure enough, the black levels on Sony’s set were as deep as you could hope for, while colors really popped. The "unnamed" plasma was later determined to be a Pioneer model, but evidently not a KURO display as its blacks were too high.

Thanks, but that info has been posted and discussed on numerous threads already.

Thanks, but that info has been posted and discussed on numerous threads already.Providing info wasn't the point. The point was that another independent eye witness liked the panel. That kind of confirmation is far more credible than any marketing hype or even the pictures of the set.

More positive impressions:

Sony features two new technologies in their XBR 08 series. The result is amazing contrast and colors... Sony‚s display was pretty breathtaking even without comparing it to the others.

Advanced Contrast Enhancer Pro technology uses grid sections of a display and processes both light and dark, enhancing the contrast between the two. Most manufacturers have some sort of gimmick to do this, but in the case of the XBR, it actually worked very well. Black level on the LCD display was amazing and shadow detail was visible without crushing the blacks.

While we specialize in projectors and screens more so than flat panel displays, if this is where Sony is taking LCD flat panel, we‚re paying attention. Sony is giving the Pioneer Kuro a run for its money!


The XBR 8 model is really something

I just hope that the price isn't outlandish. Sony really does have a tendency to overinflate thier prices.

Either way, I can't wait to see it in person, will be nice to see what Samsung brings to the table with thier 950, considering they've already skimmed the surface of led backlight technology.

Advanced Contrast Enhancer Pro = DRE for Pioneer, I'm thinking.

Sonyxbr8....what panel do you own now as your main display?

Advanced Contrast Enhancer Pro = DRE for Pioneer, I'm thinking.
Sony's picture quality reduction "enhancement" is called DRC (digital reality creation).

ACEP is just their brandname for local dimming.

More from Sony New York event:

http://i26.tinypic.com/6q8vps.jpg

Notice how ambient light affects picture quality and black levels.

Another LCD chasing Pioneer. How Boring can it get??

More from Sony New York event:

http://i26.tinypic.com/6q8vps.jpg

Notice how ambient light affects picture quality and black levels.

What is the panel on the right this time? It is certainly not a Kuro in any normal operation as a blank input screen is not able to be that blue even on the non-elites under the sun.

What is the panel on the right this time? It is certainly not a Kuro in any normal operation as a blank input screen is not able to be that blue even on the non-elites under the sun.

No doubt as my 5070 doesn't even look close to that during the middle of the day.:confused:

My Samsung 5044 and 5084 didn't even come close to that in the daytime when properly set-up.

More from Sony New York event:

http://i26.tinypic.com/6q8vps.jpg

Notice how ambient light affects picture quality and black levels.
Well that's not rigged now is it.

Another LCD chasing Pioneer. How Boring can it get??

i would assume any technology that wipes the floor of another is worthy of some attention.

but for daytime viewing lcd's have been trouncing plasma for quite a while now, so nothing new.

time will tell what this new sony set looks like in the dark

Well that's not rigged now is it.

That was the cameras flash, nothing rigged there.
Even Pioneer had those same pics when they showed their 9gen Kuros.

More from Sony New York event:
Notice how ambient light affects picture quality and black levels.
Truth be told, this shouldn't count for much. My LCD monitor screen looks totally black next to "light blue" SONY CRT screen (GDM-FW900) when they are both turned off. But, when they are both on at night, LCD doesn't come close to CRT's PQ.

Thanks, but that info has been posted and discussed on numerous threads already.
I love all of the Kuro is better than X threads from you guys. Eventually every thread breaks down into a match between the Kuro fanboys and everybody else.

The fact is that 20 years from now there will be much better displays out there, but the Kuro and Sony fanboys will still be arguing about the same things.

More from Sony New York event:

http://i26.tinypic.com/6q8vps.jpg

Notice how ambient light affects picture quality and black levels.

My old Panasonic isn't even that light with a grey screen, so what display is that?

I love all of the Kuro is better than X threads from you guys. Eventually every thread breaks down into a match between the Kuro fanboys and everybody else.

The fact is that 20 years from now there will be much better displays out there, but the Kuro and Sony fanboys will still be arguing about the same things.

I love how people with nothing important to say or factual resort to calling people names like 12 year olds on a playground.
Why would someone who realizes the superiority of PDP and speciffically Kuro's not realize superiority again if another brand or tech that comes out that is superior?
I'm pretty sure almost all of the people you call that twelve year old's term are very concious about performance ond PQ and will gravitate to THE BEST no matter what it is or who it's made by. ;)

That was the cameras flash, nothing rigged there.
Even Pioneer had those same pics when they showed their 9gen Kuros.

Except that the brightest sunlight coming in on a saturday or sunday afternoon cannot make it look like that...so that as a comparison of handling ambient light is useless.

Not trying to start any flame wars lcd vs plasma.

http://gizmodo.com/5013722/sony-hosts-xbr8-led-lcd-vs-plasma-shootout-youll-never-guess-who-wins

Here's a link to a shootout sony did, apparently the xbr8 is holding its own against a kuro, not sure if its a 8g or 9g, but either way extremely good for a lcd.

Has anyone got to take a look at these new xbr8? (D-nice in particular)

I'm very interested in this one as well. But I thought the XBR8 wasn't coming out until fall. Correct me if I'm wrong. This is the set I'd most like to see go up against the Kuros in the flat panel shoot-out next month - if it's possible to find one.

We won't know anything until the both the XBR8s and the Elite Kuros are in stores. I suspect the 55" XBR8 will cost more than the Pioneer PRO-151FD, probably in the neighborhood of $7k. There's no telling what kind of artifacts this "Triluminous" LED backlighting system will have.

I wouldn't worry about the XBR8 Vashti, you're PRO-151FD will still have all the advantages plasmas have over LCDs (motion, viewing angles etc.).

A very quick search comes up with this ongoing thread identical to this one:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1036648

Yeah, I think I'm going to go with a 151 in the living room and a 46" XBR8 in the bedroom. But we'll see how the XBR8 pans out.

Yeah, I think I'm going to go with a 151 in the living room and a 46" XBR8 in the bedroom. But we'll see how the XBR8 pans out.

Save yourself some money and get the PRO-111FD for your bedroom instead.:D

My plan is a Pioneer plasma in every room, (2 so far,and counting)
and a Kuro projector in the basement theater :D

Funny how Sony uses a Kuro for comparison.... its obvious that they know who they have to beat. Hehehehehehe. Pio has raised the bar and evereyone keeps jumping higher.

Sony LCDs are nice.... but I suspect even the XBR8 will still suffer from many/some of the LCD issues that the technology has yet to overcome. We'll see.

Even if the Sony does produce better blacks there's more to the pic than just that. I didn't get to see the 81 series Samsung until weeks ago. I compared it to the Pioneer Elite. Indeed at times the Sammy had produced a much deeper black than the Kuros, however the problem I found with the Sammy is that one minute it had good contrast and the next the picture looked washed out. The Kuro had a much better balance than the Sammy. I did what I could with picture settings on the Sammy but I walked away from the Sammy not nearly as impressed as I thought I would have. Time will tell what Sony has to offer.

Time will tell what Sony has to offer.

A jerry rigged LCD trying desperately to imitate the self-emitting design of plasmas.............and failing.:D;):)

Even if the Sony does produce better blacks there's more to the pic than just that. I didn't get to see the 81 series Samsung until weeks ago. I compared it to the Pioneer Elite. Indeed at times the Sammy had produced a much deeper black than the Kuros, however the problem I found with the Sammy is that one minute it had good contrast and the next the picture looked washed out. The Kuro had a much better balance than the Sammy. I did what I could with picture settings on the Sammy but I walked away from the Sammy not nearly as impressed as I thought I would have. Time will tell what Sony has to offer.

Considering the non-elite 9g's are .0014, you can't get much lower than that and I wonder how discernable zero would be from .0014?

Except that the brightest sunlight coming in on a saturday or sunday afternoon cannot make it look like that...so that as a comparison of handling ambient light is useless.

Well it all depends on how bright your room is. I seen a lot of plasma models looking exactly like that in stores that had them near opened doors with light shining directly on them.

I wonder how discernable zero would be from
.0014?

Literally night and day difference. Take a look at high end projector forum where some people complain about JVC+16X ND filter 0.00005fl blacks.

Local dimming is interesting, but unless it is very high resolution (and it won't be) you will get low res halos.

On balance, I think Plasma will have less artifacts even if local dimming LCDs have blacker blacks. Not to mention It still doesn't fix viewing angle oddities of LCDs.

Literally night and day difference. Take a look at high end projector forum where some people complain about JVC+16X ND filter 0.00005fl blacks.
Whereas I'd complain about the pathetic whites such a projector would put out.

A very quick search comes up with this ongoing thread identical to this one:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1036648

Weren't we talking about this like a week ago? Seriously people...search. I don't think the original thread even dropped off the front page.

Well it all depends on how bright your room is. I seen a lot of plasma models looking exactly like that in stores that had them near opened doors with light shining directly on them.

Thats fine and dandy, except how many people have gigantic windows letting in sunlight, combined with industrial grade fluorescent lighting in their home? Not many, methinks.

And before people start bashing me, I own an LCD. I'm just tired of people on both sides drinking their respective Kool-Aid. This Sony demo is extremely questionable, no matter how you cut it. Same thing could be said for the Pioneer demo earlier this year.

Not like anyone is going to listen to me though :rolleyes:

Considering the non-elite 9g's are .0014, you can't get much lower than that and I wonder how discernable zero would be from .0014?

Not sure. I'm looking forward to seeing how much the 9Gs have improved over the 8Gs.

Not sure. I'm looking forward to seeing how much the 9Gs have improved over the 8Gs.

If I remember right, the 8G Kuro's were somewhere around .003 fL. So a pretty significant change numbers wise, but real world difference should be interesting to see.

Not for nothing but the Pioneers, or any plasma for that matter are a little gray and washed out with all that light coming through, but what home enviornment has that kind of light?

but what home enviornment has that kind of light?


The kind you need for PR demo purposes to impress your respective fanbase.

Not sure. I'm looking forward to seeing how much the 9Gs have improved over the 8Gs.
My local Sam's Club has the Pio 5010 set up and there so DIM! For less than 3k seems like a deal but can't get past the dimness. Hope the new Pio's have done something with white levels.

Maybe I'm just one of those that love being blinded by brightness.;)

Gotta love those white levels!

My local Sam's Club has the Pio 5010 set up and there so DIM! For less than 3k seems like a deal but can't get past the dimness. Hope the new Pio's have done something with white levels.

Maybe I'm just one of those that love being blinded by brightness.;)

Gotta love those white levels!

I prefer a brighter pic too. Yes the Kuros look really dim in the stores but they are muich brighter at home than what you see in the stores. Still, IMO there is definitely room to improve with brightness :).

Don't forget that Samsung's A950 may be a pretty solid contender in all of this. I mean, you can see how deep the black levels are on their WCG-CCFL backlit panels can get so far in the A650/A750 models, just imagine how much deeper that they'll be in their LED-backlit sets. They're promising them to be even better than the 81F series. Whether or not the XBR8 will indeed be that more of a "holy grail" of LCDs remains a mystery. As far as Pioneer's Kuro Elite can be better, well, we have yet to see any of their newer releases. Panasonic's proving somewhat worthy with their 800/850U series so far, but even there... It's still far too early in the year for the REAL high-end PQ flat panels.

Hmmmmm, a swath of new displays claiming to topple the PQ crown from Plasma with one top of the line LED model? where i have heard THAT one before?

seriously, though, based on previous experience, i will in no way trust or even look forward to sony's LED tech, since it could just end up being a flop (if it was surefire superior i'd imagine they would probably not niche' it, even if it does recreate the best results).

the 81f series was a dissapointment, and considering sony is doing a similar type of strategy, i dont want to be a guinea pig for their exprimental LED tech, whether it's after it comes out, or for the hype market before.

but if unlike Samsung it actually can create the level it claims, as well as solve the extra eyestrain issue caused by CCFL, then i'll be all for it.

More from Sony New York event:

http://i26.tinypic.com/6q8vps.jpg

Notice how ambient light affects picture quality and black levels.

XBR8 seem to be more glossy that other Bravia. It's like the Super Clean Panel 2...:confused:

doesn't look like the samsung panels if that's what you mean.

i'm just shocked at that pic. is the set even on?

nice, cool that sony looks way better then the pioneer

Sure it does....I could make a Vizio look better in a rigged set-up.

I am eager to see one in real world action....but only as far as black levels and if they stay low in all scenes and color accuracy.
Blur will still be there so I'll never buy one.

Sure it does....I could make a Vizio look better in a rigged set-up.

I am eager to see one in real world action....but only as far as black levels and if they stay low in all scenes and color accuracy.
Blur will still be there so I'll never buy one.

Unless they use that LED motion plus tech that Samsung uses in the 81 series. It managed to get the motion resolution up to 800 lines (the 5010 had a 900+ motion res)

Blur will still be there so I'll never buy one.

A)Would you be surprised if XBR8 blurs less than KURO?
B)When will KURO fix the horrible PWM&dithering noise? I tried to watch 50" 8G Elite today and just couldn't. Blu-ray looked like analog broadcast.

I saw the 81 series many times at my local AV store. It was not in the same league as the Elites. Including motion handling as I saw blur a fair amount of time with the 81 and I never saw it with either of my Sammy plasmas or the Pio plasmas now.


Also, until sample and hold can be eliminated it wont matter what their motion resolution is....as blur will still be prevalent to many from first sight no matter the source.

A)Would you be surprised if XBR8 blurs less than KURO?
B)When will KURO fix the horrible PWM&dithering noise? I tried to watch 50" 8G Elite today and just couldn't. Blu-ray looked like analog broadcast.


The PWM you saw is more apparent on non-elites and elites after usage it becomes almost nill.

Analog broadcast? There he is, out from behind the name....roflmao.
If that means the best possible PQ from any display to date, then I agree.
Dithering is almost non-existent on a properly set-up Kuro. Much more prevelant on say a Samsung.
In a showroom or on a typical persons torch settings it may be worse but I've never watched with anything other than calibrated settings.

All,
I saw this article.
http://gizmodo.com/5013722/sony-hosts-xbr8-led-lcd-vs-plasma-shootout-youll-never-guess-who-wins
Some are saying that the Plasma that Sony put up against their XBR8 was a Kuro.
So what are you guys thoughts on this??
Personally I think the Kuro will still have the lead when the XBR8 is released. You have to remember, the pioneer 10G's are next year and they are ZERO idol luminance.
And blacks are just the start anyway, Plasma is still better with motion, viewing angles, etc.

Anyway I wanted to hear everyones thoughts on this.

Man that's a BOMBSHELL!! There's is no doubt in my mind that plasma is a Kuro.

This is more evidence that plasma is on the way out. If LCD's keep getting better like this and cheaper, there will be no way of justifying the continued existence of plasma.

First: this is Kuro vs Sony thread. Not Kuro vs Samsung thread.

Second: Kuro should win in off angle viewing angles and possible have slight edge in motion resolution. Remember to mention those things in every XBR8 thread, so that everyone would have the wisdom to choose 9G.

Be a fan of good picture, not display technology or brand.

Oh the Irony. This advice is coming from the person with the self selected name:"sonyxbr8". What a hypocrite.:eek:

Oh the Irony. This advice is coming from the person with the self selected name:"sonyxbr8". What a hypocrite.:eek:

It is a new name.

Also, with the XBR8 you can expect to get amazing blacks along with true whites, not "dirty" whites.

No burn-in or IR worries with this ground breaking LCD from Sony. Kudos to Sony. I think Sony might be getting its "mojo" back. That 55 incher sounds my tempting. I just hope its not priced out the mainstream ala Pioneer Elite Kuros.

Have you ever owned a Kuro?
Even just to try at home.
Or even have a friend or family member with one where you have spent time playing with it and auditioning it?

Also, with the XBR8 you can expect to get amazing blacks along with true whites, not "dirty" whites.

No burn-in or IR worries with this ground breaking LCD from Sony. Kudos to Sony. I think Sony might be getting its "mojo" back. That 55 incher sounds my tempting. I just hope its not priced out the mainstream ala Pioneer Elite Kuros.

Too bad you will either have great blacks and no shadow detail, or great shadow detail and crap grey blacks. You don't have to make that compromise with plasma. (and I have seen dirty whites on my panasonic plasma, took 2 seconds to get rid of it with basic calibration.)

Too bad you will either have great blacks and no shadow detail, or great shadow detail and crap grey blacks. You don't have to make that compromise with plasma. (and I have seen dirty whites on my panasonic plasma, took 2 seconds to get rid of it with basic calibration.)

PDP's crush blacks. All of them do. I prefer the PQ of Plasma, but I have noticed that flaw myself.

Having said that, please don't rush to judgment of until we actually seen the XBR8.

Plasmas do not all cruch blacks.
It is dependent on the PDP and the 'settings'.

If the 71 samsung and xbr4 is any indication of what sony and samsung are gonna release next, then good bye pioneer. The pop of the 71 plus nice blacks id not buy anything else.

PDP's crush blacks. All of them do. I prefer the PQ of Plasma, but I have noticed that flaw myself.
.

Hogwash. Maybe in torch mode at bestbuy. PDP's do much better with blacks than any LCD out there period.

If the 71 samsung and xbr4 is any indication of what sony and samsung are gonna release next, then good bye pioneer. The pop of the 71 plus nice blacks id not buy anything else.

LOL.
If the 71F and the XBR4 are an indication of what LCD is going to do next then thats a sad day for LCD.
And I am speaking from experience. I owned both. And would take the non-elite, non-1080p Pioneer kuro (5080) over any LCD on the market.
In fact,
One of AVS's most respected members (sharpjunkie) did a side by side comparison between the 71F and XBR4 here:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=901794

After doing this comparison he decided to try the 5080 and guess what??
He is now totally convinced that the PQ differences of the Kuro are huge.

I went thru the exact same thing myself also.
I was trying to decide between the 71F and the XBR4, but I shouldn't have considered either.
Both are loaded down with the same LCD problems that all LCD's have.

PDP's crush blacks. All of them do.

Sorry to disagree, but this is simply not true.

-Robert

Sorry to disagree, but this is simply not true.

-Robert

We've all come to realize that he's just an intermediate poster. :cool:

Are you going to be able to get the XBR8 for your shootout? That would be great.

Sorry to disagree, but this is simply not true.

-Robert

Let me qualify my post a little better. At the least the ones that I have seen. That would include the Pioneers and Panasonics and the Panasonic I own.

None of them can equal CRT in the combination of deep blacks and shadow detail. Yes, I'm using CRT as a reference. In fact I haven't seen a digital display combine both the way CRT does.

^^ True. But plasma renders black and has far better gradation and definition than any other flat panel technology on the market.

-Robert

Are you going to be able to get the XBR8 for your shootout? That would be great.

Nothing would make me happier, but I do not think we'll be able to get one by 7/18.

-Robert

But plasma renders black and has far better gradation and definition than any other flat panel technology on the market.

Sony XEL-1 says hello.

Also, with the XBR8 you can expect to get amazing blacks along with true whites, not "dirty" whites. You STILL dont know the definition of "white". Get a clue.

No burn-in or IR worriesKuro owners don't worry about IR and/or burn-in. However, LED LCDs owners need to worry about uneven wear...wich over a period of time WILL become burn-in ;)

I just hope its not priced out the mainstream ala Pioneer Elite Kuros.Higher.

PDP's crush blacks. All of them do.You've hit a new low. Scientifically define black crush and provide evidence of black crush on any PDP....scientifically.....and I don't want to hear your personal BS.

I prefer the PQ of Plasma, but I have noticed that flaw myself.Get your Panasonic calibrated by a real calibrator and you will finally see what a true picture looks like.

None of them can equal CRT in the combination of deep blacks and shadow detail. Yes, I'm using CRT as a reference. In fact I haven't seen a digital display combine both the way CRT does.Really? have you EVER seen a calibrated CRT, LCD, or PDP before? If so, have you ever seen them side by side?

I ask because I know for a fact that consumer CRTs to not have a good gamma curve out of the box.....regardless if you attempt to use a calibration disc on your own. I put all of my money on your "personal" TV comparisons are of TVs with an S-shaped gamma curve.

Sony XEL-1 says hello.Why would anyone want to compare an 11" screen to a 50 or 60" screen. That's just silly.

However, I can guarantee that the 9G Elite Kuros will run circles around the XEL-1 ;)

(if it was surefire superior i'd imagine they would probably not niche' it, even if it does recreate the best results).

I'm not sure what planet you're on. New technology generally trickles down from the top with pretty much any consumer product.

threads merged

More from Sony New York event:

http://i26.tinypic.com/6q8vps.jpg

Notice how ambient light affects picture quality and black levels.

This doesn't look like a Sony New York event. It looks more like a sales guy rolled two TVs in on carts in grandma's living room :p. Check out the cool curtains;).

Also, with the XBR8 you can expect to get amazing blacks along with true whites, not "dirty" whites.

No burn-in or IR worries with this ground breaking LCD from Sony. Kudos to Sony. I think Sony might be getting its "mojo" back. That 55 incher sounds my tempting. I just hope its not priced out the mainstream ala Pioneer Elite Kuros.

But it's just an intermediate display though and since when has a Sony XBR series TV not been priced in the higher end of TV's? You're a funny guy auditor as you sure work hard on trying to diss on Pioneer. :cool:

This doesn't look like a Sony New York event. It looks more like a sales guy rolled two TVs in on carts in grandma's living room :p. Check out the cool curtains;).

Hey, at least it wasn't in the back of a white van. :eek:

Also, with the XBR8 you can expect to get amazing blacks along with true whites, not "dirty" whites.

No burn-in or IR worries with this ground breaking LCD from Sony. Kudos to Sony. I think Sony might be getting its "mojo" back. That 55 incher sounds my tempting. I just hope its not priced out the mainstream ala Pioneer Elite Kuros.

Don't know what dirty whites your talking about, if it's the smooth realistic whites that my plasma provides compared to the LCD I'm using now to type that burns my eyes I'm all for "dirty" whites. An affordable XBR? That's a good one.. They are the "elite" of the Sony brand and will be priced as such. I don't expect to see a 50+ under $4000.

http://i26.tinypic.com/6q8vps.jpg

funny that this guy is comparing XBR to a regular Pioneer line (Pioneer Elite doesn't have silver remote). At the very least, he should compare it with Pioneer Elite line (considering the price of XBR8 going to be).

Here are side by pics of Sharp LCD (left) Mits Laservue (center) and Pioneer Kuro (right). I want you to pay close attention to the whites in the pic and blacks or other colors. This a visual example of what I mean when I say plasmas don't display true whites and the Kuro is no exception.

http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/panasonic-and-mitsubushi-11-408.jpg

Notice the how dim the whites are on the plasma in comparison to the LCD and Laser set. Now go outside and look at the clouds in the sky and tell me which display less capable of capturing the accuracy of bright white clouds.

Here are side by pics of Sharp LCD (left) Mits Laservue (center) and Pioneer Kuro (right). I want you to pay close attention to the whites in the pic and blacks or other colors. This a visual example of what I mean when I say plasmas don't display true whites and the Kuro is no exception.

http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/panasonic-and-mitsubushi-11-408.jpg

Notice the how dim the whites are on the plasma in comparison to the LCD and Laser set. Now go outside and look at the clouds in the sky and tell me which display less capable of capturing the accuracy of bright white clouds.

Those pictures are so far away and out of focus that one can't even do a comparison to what it's trying to duplicate in real life. Not a good example for your argument auditor.

Now go outside and look at the clouds in the sky and tell me which display less capable of capturing the accuracy of bright white clouds.

Dude, the last thing you need to be mentioning when trying to glorify LCD is Clouds.LOL

OK so I took a picture of my 9th Gen Kuro and I combined the picture of the "so called" 9G kuro from Sony's comparison picture.
Now,
The picture I took of my Kuro was with a very bright camera flash. So the screen isn't as black as it would be in normal lighting conditions.
But one thing is FOR SURE! IT is nowhere near as Blue as the Picture sony is throwing around.
This leads me to believe it is not a 9G kuro.
another thing, if you look at sonys "so called" 9G kuro picture you will notice there is no bottom speaker. Anyone who owns a 9G non-elite will tell you that without the bottom speaker the set stands on two long skinny "chicken legs". SO where are they in the picture??

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/chadmak09/compare.jpg?t=1213557179

OK so I took a picture of my 9th Gen Kuro and I combined the picture of the "so called" 9G kuro from Sony's comparison picture.
Now,
The picture I took of my Kuro was with a very bright camera flash. So the screen isn't as black as it would be in normal lighting conditions.
But one thing is FOR SURE! IT is nowhere near as Blue as the Picture sony is throwing around.
This leads me to believe it is not a 9G kuro.
another thing, if you look at sonys "so called" 9G kuro picture you will notice there is no bottom speaker. Anyone who owns a 9G non-elite will tell you that without the bottom speaker the set stands on two long skinny "chicken legs". SO where are they in the picture??

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/chadmak09/compare.jpg?t=1213557179

As I mentioned before, the plasma Sony used to do the shootout is not the 9th gen Kuro. The remote is NOT a 9th gen Pio remote but 8th gen Pio (not even Elite)

Here are side by pics of Sharp LCD (left) Mits Laservue (center) and Pioneer Kuro (right). I want you to pay close attention to the whites in the pic and blacks or other colors. This a visual example of what I mean when I say plasmas don't display true whites and the Kuro is no exception.

http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/panasonic-and-mitsubushi-11-408.jpg

Notice the how dim the whites are on the plasma in comparison to the LCD and Laser set. Now go outside and look at the clouds in the sky and tell me which display less capable of capturing the accuracy of bright white clouds.

you mean the first two displays have way overblown whites? The 3rd display, whatever that is, is the most preferable one just because it shows more details then the other two. The first one is the worst, the second one is better (although still well below my threshold of acceptability).

^ I agree. You can see the bird in the middle on the pioneer. Still, plasma does not produce white quite as good as other technologies. Snow scenes and hockey are torture tests for plasma.

As I mentioned before, the plasma Sony used to do the shootout is not the 9th gen Kuro. The remote is NOT a 9th gen Pio remote but 8th gen Pio (not even Elite)

Even the 8g's at best buy under the brightest lights don't glow blue like in that pick.

^ I agree. You can see the bird in the middle on the pioneer. Still, plasma does not produce white quite as good as other technologies. Snow scenes and hockey are torture tests for plasma.

That's true but from what I've seen at least from the 11G Panasonics (I'm sure the 9gs Pioneers are even better) there is a real improvement compared to previous generations. I have no problems watching hockey or other winter sports on the set.

If the 71 samsung and xbr4 is any indication of what sony and samsung are gonna release next, then good bye pioneer. The pop of the 71 plus nice blacks id not buy anything else.

Neither of those two sets could even hold a candle to the 8G Kuro's let alone the 9g.

As I mentioned before, the plasma Sony used to do the shootout is not the 9th gen Kuro. The remote is NOT a 9th gen Pio remote but 8th gen Pio (not even Elite)

I owned a 5080 and it couldn't look like that either.
And my 1150 Elite also obviously cannot.

Here are side by pics of Sharp LCD (left) Mits Laservue (center) and Pioneer Kuro (right). I want you to pay close attention to the whites in the pic and blacks or other colors. This a visual example of what I mean when I say plasmas don't display true whites and the Kuro is no exception.

http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/panasonic-and-mitsubushi-11-408.jpg

Notice the how dim the whites are on the plasma in comparison to the LCD and Laser set. Now go outside and look at the clouds in the sky and tell me which display less capable of capturing the accuracy of bright white clouds.


Seriously?
I see an overblown white area that looks bloomed.
Not to mention, how were they set-up, were they calibrated, what type of camera?
Keep trying ;)

I see an overblown white area that looks bloomed.

I came across this picture of an lcd display:

http://i26.tinypic.com/2r2r9g9.png

That's just a picture showing the new "HDR" technology I believe. They're probably trying to show you the difference

That's just a picture showing the new "HDR" technology I believe. They're probably trying to show you the difference

They are showing that there's no detail missing. So that the blooming is caused by camera.

Then how can you make any judgements based off of your own picture when your own words tell you that you can't....fairly?

Then how can you make any judgements based off of your own picture

A)It's not my picture
B)I'm not making any judgements
C)I got the info from picture description, so I'm just passing info

OK so I took a picture of my 9th Gen Kuro

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/chadmak09/compare.jpg?t=1213557179

you can immediately tell the sony is way darker than the 9g kuro. not even close

i would assume any technology that wipes the floor of another is worthy of some attention.

but for daytime viewing lcd's have been trouncing plasma for quite a while now, so nothing new.




And what would that be? Are you saying a XBR8 will "wipe the floor" with a 9g Kuro Elite?

Something is relatively new. LCD's have gone mostly to glossy screens and thereofr have lost 'much' of their advantage.

Also, you have been a member here for 7 years and you are seriously going to pretend that you believe you can judge his in home picture against a 'rigged' picture from a 'different camera' in a 'different lighting enviroment' ??
Come on now.

you can immediately tell the sony is way darker than the 9g kuro. not even close

Which one do you think is the Sony and which one do you think is the 9g Kuro in that picture?
:cool:

He's comparing the originally linked picture of the Sony to Chad's picture of his 9g. :rolleyes:
He is just baiting you/us, check his history of dislike for members who feel Pioneer offers superior PQ.

Hey, did anybody hear any info as to when and what models will have Dolby Vision in them? Being that they bought out Brightside Technology, I was hoping to see this soon in lcds.

LCD is the future! Plasma is PAST @ its prime!

LCD is the future! Plasma is PAST @ its prime!

Plasma is improving as well. And next year plasma is supposed to get brighter and use less power and likely even Pioneer will get cheaper. LCDs biggest advantage is brightness. If plasma catches up and it's cheaper, 10G Pioneers with perfect blacks (albeit the screen tint isn't as black as LCDs like Samsungs), then how is LCD past it's prime and is dead?

The 81 series Samsung could show the same things you are seing in the XBR8 pics and it isn't all that. The Kuro was given higher ratings for overall PQ. The 81 I saw had too much fluctuation in contrast. The fat lady hasn't sung yet. The only thing the XBR8 has delivered thus far is a few pics. Let's wait and see.

looks like pioneer will have some stiff competition from LED LCDS come this fall for the crown. if sony can deliver deeper blacks than the 9G Kuro, which seems likely, then that's a major blow for plasma tvs in general since that's probably the only major advantage plasmas still has over lcds other than viewing angles.

We shall see if they deliver lower than .014. And if it stays that low completely uniformly during viewing.
But it would still have to eliminate the sample/hold for me to consider it.

LCD is the future! Plasma is PAST @ its prime!

Really? So plasma tech is actually getting worse year after year? news to me!

But it would still have to eliminate the sample/hold for me to consider it.

Are you suggesting that there's non-sample-hold flat panel tv on the market?

I'm suggesting that it is widely known that motion resolution is higher with good PDP's than LCD's.
I am also saying that no matter the source I see blur constantly on all LCD's regardless of refresh rate or backlight source or implementation.

Really? So plasma tech is actually getting worse year after year? news to me!

I never said it is going worse!
LCD are trying to catch up.

Bigger sizes, lower prices will win the race!

looks like pioneer will have some stiff competition from LED LCDS come this fall for the crown. if sony can deliver deeper blacks than the 9G Kuro, which seems likely, then that's a major blow for plasma tvs in general since that's probably the only major advantage plasmas still has over lcds other than viewing angles.How. Last time I checked the XBR8 will have less than 150 LED blocks.....only a few more than the Samsung 81 series......and we all know what happened with the 81 series vs the 8G Kuros ;)

Bigger sizes, lower prices will win the race!If this is the case, then the 5 lumen plasmas that Pioneer, Panasonic, and Hitachi are bringing to market in 2009 will make plasma far superior to LCDs....again....right???? I mean, going by your terms ;)

Last time I checked the XBR8 will have less than 150 LED blacks.

What do you mean with "150 LED blacks". From where is this info coming from as Sony isn't telling to anyone. If you are referring to the number of LEDs, Qualia 46" had 450.

looks like pioneer will have some stiff competition from LED LCDS come this fall for the crown. if sony can deliver deeper blacks than the 9G Kuro, which seems likely, then that's a major blow for plasma tvs in general since that's probably the only major advantage plasmas still has over lcds other than viewing angles.

competition is great and makes the manufacturers continue to raise the bar, thus better for us consumers. I couldn't care less who makes the best panel as I will just enjoy the fact that they continue to get better regardless of technology.

:D

Well put.
I've already owned four brands and three tech's of HDTV's.
I just go after the best PQ for me.

exactly. lower prices, better PQ. in the end, consumers win.

What do you mean with "150 LED blacks".Blocks...the grid structure.

From where is this info coming from as Sony isn't telling to anyone.You sure on this one ;)

You sure on this one ;)

So you are making this stuff up? I don't see how this would benefit anyone?

So you are making this stuff up? I don't see how this would benefit anyone?You let me know when you find one of my posts that has info I've "made up".

Obviously you do not know me. Otherwise, you would know I don't post just for the hell of it.

So you are making this stuff up? I don't see how this would benefit anyone?

DNice has been one of the most reliable and informative posters in this forum when it comes to technology and new information. You can doubt him all you want but his track record is one of the best.

You let me know when you find one of my posts that have info I've made up.

You currently have 7700 posts. Give me few hours.

while sonyxbr8 is doing that, lets get back to the regular show: I imagine he will be tied up for a while ;)

You currently have 7700 posts. Give me few hours.


You shouldn't need that much time as you should be able to tell he's legit after reading just a handful of his posts. :)

How many LED blocks did the Samsung 81 series have?

D-nice,
When on Gods green earth will we see a 70" or so from Pioneer? I heard a rumor that it will be easier to produce larger panels in the near future by Pioneer.
Lefty

You shouldn't need that much time as you should be able to tell he's legit after reading just a handful of his posts. :)

OK. I don't know about most of the stuff this guy writes about, but I found him talking about Pioneer 9G black level before release:

Same will be with the 9g's. only a shade blacker than the 8g's.
0.000xfL vs 0.004fL is more than a "shade".

And now that 9G is released:

Minimum luminance levels..
0.0014fL


I found these posts contradicting.

Seriously?
I see an overblown white area that looks bloomed.
Not to mention, how were they set-up, were they calibrated, what type of camera?
Keep trying ;)

I see a dim plasma. Face it, Plasma can't do true whites like LCD. At least not yet. The picture is visual proof of that fact. Even when plasma tries to produce true whites many of them start to buzz.

I wish you could see panic and tears through a screen :(

There won't be any 70 inch screens from Pioneer.

All,
I saw this article.
http://gizmodo.com/5013722/sony-hosts-xbr8-led-lcd-vs-plasma-shootout-youll-never-guess-who-wins
Some are saying that the Plasma that Sony put up against their XBR8 was a Kuro.
So what are you guys thoughts on this??
Personally I think the Kuro will still have the lead when the XBR8 is released. You have to remember, the pioneer 10G's are next year and they are ZERO idol luminance.
And blacks are just the start anyway, Plasma is still better with motion, viewing angles, etc.

Anyway I wanted to hear everyones thoughts on this.
Yeah, I have to agree with other Forum members - IF it was a 151, Sony's marketing staff would've been all over that 'shoot out'....

To add:

That's right boys and girls the 9G Kuros are capable of an infinite on/off contrast ratio!!!!! Unfortunately this 0fL black level will not hold when regular content is on the screen (reverts to 0.0014fL). But "technically", absolute zero is in the Kuros.....if one strictly adheres to the method of calculating On/Off contrast ratios.

I thought the Samsung 81 series LCD's already achieved that. :confused:

OK. I don't know about most of the stuff this guy writes about, but I found him talking about Pioneer 9G black level before release:



And now that 9G is released:



I found these posts contradicting.

He was talking about the Elite models, which he has not yet measured.

People are saying that the Pioneer Elites screen isn't that blue when it's off. Though if you go to the 9g thread, there's a couple pics of peoples 6020's with a blueish screen with the panel powered off. I personally couldn't tell you, since I have a 950, and it really does depend on how bright the room is, the brighter, the more blue, but not that blue, so I don't know.

Got this from the 9g forum, unfortunately, looks just like the pic from the Sony shootout.

http://www.twhq.com/picture/151q.jpg

Got this from the 9g forum, unfortunately, looks just like the pic from the Sony shootout.


That's because of the flash from the camera. Go to best buy under the lights and when a all black screen comes on it won't look like that.

That's because of the flash from the camera. Go to best buy under the lights and when a all black screen comes on it won't look like that.

Yeah but what fanaticalism is saying is that the blue tint looks like the comparion pic, so he's saying theres is still a chance it could have been a 9g.

It's obvious that sonyxbr8 is just a fanboy and is desperately trying to disprove D-Nice's cred, but if you don't know D-Nice and don't have respect for what he brings to this forum better for you to just go to another forum.

On a sidenote the xbr8 looks like a great set according to specs but I'm anxious to actually see it in person. And see if any of the new tech has decreased motion blur of LCDs.

I see a dim plasma. Face it, Plasma can't do true whites like LCD. At least not yet. The picture is visual proof of that fact. Even when plasma tries to produce true whites many of them start to buzz.


and yet, by your own admission you like the picture of a plasma better.

Personally I prefer the picture quality of plasma, however I realize that's my preference.

Dirty whites, bright whites, deep blacks, gray blacks, motion blur who cares. I go with what looks best to my eyes over all and it appears by the above quote you agree that it's plasma.

Dnice - have you heard how many total led's by any chance?

Also where can i find more info about the 5 lumen plasma's? is that as bright as an LCD?

Last time I checked the XBR8 will have less than 150 LED blocks.....only a few more than the Samsung 81 series......and we all know what happened with the 81 series vs the 8G Kuros ;)

Did I miss something? Where is this "150 LED blocks" info coming from? I follow all the new info on LED LCDs very closely and this is the first time I'm hearing about it. Source please?

Got this from the 9g forum, unfortunately, looks just like the pic from the Sony shootout.

http://www.twhq.com/picture/151q.jpg


This is just plain silly. You will not see a blue screen like that on a Pioneer Kuro (My Panny 600U which didn't have close to the black levels of the Pioneer didn't even have a blueish screen).

The truth be told, yes, LCD can have deeper tinted blacks during the day because they have a darker tinted screen. IMO, plasma could benefit from this as well if it doesn't dim the picture.

Also, all this stuff about the Kuro being a non-elite or an elite is completely irrelevant. The Elite has no better blacks than the non-elite so I'm not sure why people keep saying "if it was an elite". The whites could be a little better, but I doubt by much.

removed

I've seen this in the LCD forum before(and it wasn't posted by D-Nice). Don't ask me what thread it was in but I know I've read about the Sony's having 150 dimming zones.If anyone can find it, I would appreciate a link.

Sony is using RGB LEDs in XBR8 so it sounds like 150 might actually be reference to 150% NTSC color gamut. If this set has as few as 150 dimming zones, that would be disappointing although understandable considering still high cost of electronics driving LEDs.

And what would that be? Are you saying a XBR8 will "wipe the floor" with a 9g Kuro Elite?

Something is relatively new. LCD's have gone mostly to glossy screens and thereofr have lost 'much' of their advantage.

Also, you have been a member here for 7 years and you are seriously going to pretend that you believe you can judge his in home picture against a 'rigged' picture from a 'different camera' in a 'different lighting enviroment' ??
Come on now.


glossy screens aren't my favorite but if it has the brightness to negate the reflections i can take it a bit better. i've always said if plasma could achieve the brightness of lcd's i would seriously consider them.

as for the pics, i was only judging the screen black level to the tv's own bezel. not from pic to pic.

how do you believe the picture is rigged?

I've seen this in the LCD forum before(and it wasn't posted by D-Nice). Don't ask me what thread it was in but I know I've read about the Sony's having 150 dimming zones.

1)The only and latest info about XBR8 zones was mentioned during Sony Dealer Training (Open House 2008). There are multiple zones.

2)I have a feeling that we won't get accurate numbers before release.

3)We don't know that does XBR8 have color dimming version of local dimming. Color dimming is about 60% more efficient than white led local dimming.

1)The only and latest info about XBR8 zones was mentioned during Sony Dealer Training (Open House 2008). There are multiple zones.

2)I have a feeling that we won't get accurate numbers before release.

3)We don't know that does XBR8 have color dimming version of local dimming. Color dimming is about 60% more efficient than white led local dimming.

1) Of course there are multiple zones, how one could do locdim without them? The question is how many zones and nobodby knows the answer.
Hopefully more than the 100+ in the last year Samsung.

3) We know that Sony uses RGB LEDs so they are dimming colors. But how you know color dimming is 60% more efficient?

We know that Sony uses RGB LEDs so they are dimming colors. But how you know color dimming is 60% more efficient?

I read the following article about LCD backlighting a while ago:

http://www.videsignline.com/howto/206900923

The article mentions that on average white leds allow about 50% power reduction for typical TV content, while RGB leds allow about 80% power reduction.

So if CCFL LCD consumes 200W of power, white LED LCD consumes 100W and RGB LED LCD only 40W. This leads also to deeper blacks as there's less light to block.

There won't be any 70 inch screens from Pioneer.

What will be the closest they come? I need a 65" plus screen this wall is big.

What will be the closest they come? I need a 65" plus screen this wall is big.

Since Panasonic is providing Pioneers glass then likely Pioneer will release TVs the same size as Panasonic which would mean that 58" and 65" sizes will be available next year. I've no idea if there will be anything larger.

If anyone can find it, I would appreciate a link.

Sony is using RGB LEDs in XBR8 so it sounds like 150 might actually be reference to 150% NTSC color gamut. If this set has as few as 150 dimming zones, that would be disappointing although understandable considering still high cost of electronics driving LEDs.

I did a quick search and I couldn't find this info so I'm going to edit my post and remove that comment so that I don't cause any confusion. I typically don't post info like this w/o knowing facts first but in this case I believe I may have spoken too soon:o.

OK. I don't know about most of the stuff this guy writes about, but I found him talking about Pioneer 9G black level before release:



And now that 9G is released:



I found these posts contradicting.Contradicitng? Hmmm, so the first numbers I provided were from my Pioneer contact that were suppose to be AFTER calibration. The numbers I posted last week were pre-calibration from a fresh out of the box 6020......in my home. Please explain how that is contradicting?

I do not know who you are, nor do I really care. However, if you stick around, you will find I always try to post truth. If I'm wrong about something, I'm man enough to admit it, and correct it. Now, if that's translated by your lopsided mentality as "making stuff up", turn your inside voice on and tell yourself that, cause in reality it's far from fiction.

Since Panasonic is providing Pioneers glass then likely Pioneer will release TVs the same size as Panasonic which would mean that 58" and 65" sizes will be available next year. I've no idea if there will be anything larger.

Thanks!
Its something to shoot for anyways. Im thinking the new Sony 70" is going to be over $10,000. I love my hi-fi, but Im not going there.

To add:



I thought the Samsung 81 series LCD's already achieved that. :confused:I thought, you were one of the main cheerleaders that was "rah, rah, rahing" the 81 series goes blacker than the 8G Kuros.

Now that 9G Kuros can do the same thing and hold a FAR better minimum luminance level on regular content than the 81 seriescould not do even in a wet dream, where is your cheerleading skirt and pom-poms?

I thought you were all for superior PQ....regardless of tech. Or is your new slogan "I'm all for superior PQ, as long as it doesn't have the words Pioneer, Elite, or Kuro tagged to it"?

I see a dim plasma. Face it, Plasma can't do true whites like LCD. At least not yet. The picture is visual proof of that fact. Even when plasma tries to produce true whites many of them start to buzz.Please define "true white".

Source please?Sony

Dnice - have you heard how many total led's by any chance?No. I was more concerned with the grid structure than the total number RGB LEDs.

It's going to be very interesting to see how the XBR8's handle LD LED grid crosstalk.

Also where can i find more info about the 5 lumen plasma's? is that as bright as an LCD?Do a google search and/or search the plasma forum.

Sony

Sony doesn't give out numbers. Not to dealers or press. Do you have some contact in Japan who wants to lose his/her job? There's a thing called NDA.

This leads also to deeper blacks as there's less light to block.This depends on content, grid structure, and crosstalk.

I'm curious to know, from you...since you seem to know so much about the xbr8s, what did sony do about grid crosstalk, light leakage from one LD LED cell to the next (like a mouse cursor moving slowly across the screen from one LD LED cell to another), and off axis viewing?

Sony doesn't give out numbers. Not to dealers or press. Do you have some contact in Japan who wants to lose his/her job? There's a thing called NDA.I don't work for the press, not do I work for any dealers.

NDAs, NDAs, well aware of them, yet the info still came from Sony ;)

If anyone can find it, I would appreciate a link.

Sony is using RGB LEDs in XBR8 so it sounds like 150 might actually be reference to 150% NTSC color gamut. If this set has as few as 150 dimming zones, that would be disappointing although understandable considering still high cost of electronics driving LEDs.I'm speaking of dimming zones not individual LEDs.

Yes, putting hundreds of zones with RGB LEDs is expensive. Don't expect anyone to do it anytime soon for a reasonable cost.

Also where can i find more info about the 5 lumen plasma's? is that as bright as an LCD?

http://news.cnet.com/Teaching-plasma-to-follow-LCDs-lead/2100-1041_3-6214189.html

Right now, plasma TVs look better in dark, home-theater-like environments because of their great contrast ratio and ability to light individual pixels, but that doesn't necessarily translate well to the show floor of a big-box electronics store. Increasing the brightness will erase that difference between plasma and LCD, according to DisplaySearch's Young.

"Plasma panels will perform better in all environments, and at the same time, they'll get cheaper--that's a pretty nice advance for plasma," Young said. "Currently, people position LCD versus plasma (sales) based on where it's going to be: in a bright room with a lot of windows or a darker room or if you just watch TV at night. In the future, they both become great for all applications.

Im thinking the new Sony 70" is going to be over $10,000. I love my hi-fi, but Im not going there.Well above 10K.......

OK. Thanks. I'm glad that ingore list was easy to found.Find...not found :)

Well above 10K and it will have the highest number of dimming zones (don't know the number yet...but when I do I'll post it).

The 70" Sony will have one dimming zone. It's not a local dimming lcd. Thanks. ;)

The 70" Sony will have one dimming zone. It's not a local dimming lcd. Thanks. ;)Thank you for the correction :)

Thank you for the correction :)

As you can see there's a clear difference between fact and fiction. :cool:

As you can see there's a clear difference between fact and fiction. :cool:yeah...ditto for your new username ;)

and yet, by your own admission you like the picture of a plasma better.



Dirty whites, bright whites, deep blacks, gray blacks, motion blur who cares. I go with what looks best to my eyes over all and it appears by the above quote you agree that it's plasma.

I do like plasma better because I like film, movies, etc. and think plasma does better with that type of content.

I like what looks best to my eyes as well, however I thought we were on a quest for the holy grail. Some have decided they have found it with the Kuro. I don't believe the Kuro is the holy grail and that is where we differ. I will continue on with the quest.:)

Since Panasonic is providing Pioneers glass then likely Pioneer will release TVs the same size as Panasonic which would mean that 58" and 65" sizes will be available next year. I've no idea if there will be anything larger.


A 65 kuro needless to say would be sweet, 60 is OK, but 65 is a big jump where i would not feel the need to zoom. Maybe the buzzing will go away also with the panny glass.

yeah...ditto for your new username ;)

I was wondering when you were going to reel Sampo in.:D

Shhh!!!!!!

I thought, you were one of the main cheerleaders that was "rah, rah, rahing" the 81 series goes blacker than the 8G Kuros.

Now that 9G Kuros can do the same thing and hold a FAR better minimum luminance level on regular content than the 81 seriescould not do even in a wet dream, where is your cheerleading skirt and pom-poms?

I thought you were all for superior PQ....regardless of tech. Or is your new slogan "I'm all for superior PQ, as long as it doesn't have the words Pioneer, Elite, or Kuro tagged to it"?

I'm definitely in favor of superior PQ. Does the 9g fade to black? Also, can it get it get deep black without sacrafice to shadow detail?

Can its display whites without buzzing?

I do like plasma better because I like film, movies, etc. and think plasma does better with that type of content.

I like what looks best to my eyes as well, however I thought we were on a quest for the holy grail. Some have decided they have found it with the Kuro. I don't believe the Kuro is the holy grail and that is where we differ. I will continue on with the quest.:)What is the holy grail?

I'm definitely in favor of superior PQ. Does the 9g fade to black?Yep

Also, can it get it get deep black without sacrafice to shadow detail?All day long

Can its display whites without buzzing?No as plasma buzz regardless of color. Nature of the tech. Now is the buzzing annoying, loud, and/or excessive......no

Kuro fades to black in similar fashion as my iPod. Only when power saving turns the display off after 30 seconds.

I find these pictures quite similar:

http://gizmodo.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2008/06/Bravia_Shootout_2.jpg

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/01/pioneer-contrastconcept00.jpg

The above is Pioneer's own demo so enough with the camera flash excuses.

Now looking back we can see that the 8g was far from perfect. I noticed that a long time ago. I tried to warned avs'ers about the marketing Pioneer was doing, claming that the 8g had immeasurablee blacks and calling it a SED killer. We can see now, by Pioneer's own admission, was deceptive marketing.

That is what annoys me about Pioneer.

Kuro fades to black in similar fashion as my iPod. Only when power saving turns the display off after 30 seconds.Please provide documentation that states the 9G Kuros automatically go into a power save move (it would actually be called hibernation) while the panel is being sent a 0% stimuli signal.

Once you figure out that it does not exist, I'll be more than happy to provide you the patent for the algorithm that shuts the pixels off when the signal has zero luminance.

This algorithm is a "primative" version of what the 10G Kuros will be able to do "on the fly" regardless of content ;)


And no, Panasonic will NOT have access to the 10Gs "on the fly" algorithm and/or driver.

That is what annoys me about Pioneer.
Is it more annoying than Canon and Toshiba promising you SED, when in fact SED will never come to market? Gotta hurt...I feel your pain :p