I realize I should've probably posted this in the video processors forum but I thought CRT forum is apt to have more marquee users.
I have a marquee 9500 LC Ultra, currently being installed with latest mike parker mods.
I intend to use a hdfury dvi to rgbhv box (currently using Dtronics dvi to rgbhv).
Sources : Two directv hr21 DVrs, one Zenith SD DVD player with 1080i scaled output. Future, BD player (awaiting bd 2.0). Seating distance 21'. screen width 95"
95% of my viewing is OTA HD prime time. Rarely do I use a DVD or BD. In future, I intend to get a digital projector for Movie viewing at 150" because my screen width is actually 150", currently masked to 95" for CRT.
I have been happy with the picture but my projector needed servicing (tube haze). While it was being repaired, I thought I might as well get the mike parker mods.
Craig of cir-engineering will be doing the calibration. He has mentioned the option of lumagen hdp. Based on my conversation with him, he seems very knowledgeable and experienced in CRT and I don't want to consider his suggestion. If I were to use the lumagen, I would use a DVI to DVI hdsp stripper and use the RGBHV output of the lumagen.

Another friend, who also is very knowledgeable in Video and whose opinion I respect, said that he is not using a scaler with his G90. His comment was that the picture might actually get progressively soft if I were to go 1080p60 or p72 or p120. Currently, since I don't see scan lines of 1080i at 21' distance, his suggestion was not to even bother with a scaler.

I assume there have been several members who have had this dilemma and have checked these options out. I would appreciate your comments.
Thank you.

No, you definitely do not need a scaler *IF* you are content with 720p/1080i, all your devices lack color space conversion errors, have proper deinterlacing for 480i, offer frame rate conversion, and have acceptable scaling. You'll want a scaler (video processor) to get the best out of your sources and what is an excellent projector.

While I was quite happy with the picture at 1080i, I opted for Mike Parker mods because I hoped that it would show a visible improvement. What I don't know is the improvement, if any, the lumagen would offer for OTA HD Prime Time (which is 95% viewing). Would 1080p60 be brighter because more phosphor is lit?

I don't know how improved, if any, the gamma adjustment provided by lumagen would be VS gamma calibration within Marquee capabilities, particularly with Mike Parker mods.
With respect to color correction, I am not too sensitive to accurate color reproduction (I might not even realize the difference unless its too obvious). I am more sensitive to contrast, sharpness, gamma and avoidance of picture (mosquito?) noise. No, I don't want to spend $4000 on the lumagen Radiance.. I might as well invest that in a future digital projector.

I'm not sure why you'd want the HD Fury when you can get a Moome Marquee HDMI input board

audvid, GET THE LUMAGEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, you will not need to go digital with the marquee and you can go bigger than 95 inches, go for 110-120 I have 144 with my 8500 and most people who see it( but I have to admit they have not seen a dedicated thater before) are just floored Craig is a cool guy and will actually help you decide where to set it up. Id go bigger than 95 for sure, try 120 I bet you'll be happy.

And if you do go digital the lumagen will help out tremendously for color gammut correction of primaries and secondaries. but I think once you see the lumagen marquee combo you'll be very very happy, look for a used lumagen before you buy new.
And Craig is definiteley very very knowledgable using the lumies. Not sure if he remebers my set up but even he was surprised how good my 8000 looked on the 12 foot 16x9 screen. Needless to say I was very happy and watched about 2 movies a day for the first two weeks after he left. :)

Athanasios

I'm not sure why you'd want the HD Fury when you can get a Moome Marquee HDMI input boardI was told by someone who has tried both that the moome input board was not superior to the HDfury and that hdfury is actually more stable in terms of build (I just don't want to have to send the card back for repair or trouble or upgrade). I am aware of the post on curts forum where the white crush is indicated as compared to moome XG card. For one thing, the moome xg card is a newer model compared to the marquee. For the other thing, the projector needs to be re-calibrated with the hd fury and if thats done, there would be no white crush etc.

audvid, GET THE LUMAGEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, you will not need to go digital with the marquee and you can go bigger than 95 inches, go for 110-120 I have 144 with my 8500 and most people who see it( but I have to admit they have not seen a dedicated thater before) are just floored Craig is a cool guy and will actually help you decide where to set it up. Id go bigger than 95 for sure, try 120 I bet you'll be happy.

And if you do go digital the lumagen will help out tremendously for color gammut correction of primaries and secondaries. but I think once you see the lumagen marquee combo you'll be very very happy, look for a used lumagen before you buy new.
And Craig is definiteley very very knowledgable using the lumies. Not sure if he remebers my set up but even he was surprised how good my 8000 looked on the 12 foot 16x9 screen. Needless to say I was very happy and watched about 2 movies a day for the first two weeks after he left. :)

AthanasiosIf I were to buy a lumagen, I would buy it only from Craig at list. He seems like a nice guy and I don't mind spending a couple hundred dollars extra by buying from him. I am not so sure about going to 120". I would like to but I am afraid that the picture would be too dim.

I have another option suggested by a friend. He is sending me his HDCP stripper (dvi to dvi). I could use them in series before lumagen and this way, I could use the RGBHV of the lumagen without needing the projector. He was the one who is concerned that lumagen at 1080p60 would soften the image and that I am better off with 1080ip60 out of the DVR.

I was told by someone who has tried both that the moome input board was not superior to the HDfury and that hdfury is actually more stable in terms of build (I just don't want to have to send the card back for repair or trouble or upgrade). I am aware of the post on curts forum where the white crush is indicated as compared to moome XG card. For one thing, the moome xg card is a newer model compared to the marquee. For the other thing, the projector needs to be re-calibrated with the hd fury and if thats done, there would be no white crush etc.The Moome HDMI internal cards blow the HD-fury away (you heard that from me)there is no black crush from the superior Moome card if setup correctly.If you want the most accurate best picture and bang for buck, Get A VP and A Moome HDMI card Period!! and go Digital all the way no D/A conversion until the Moome card,With this combination calibrated correctly you will see ammediate improvment's. You can Get B stock VP50's for dirt cheap, O by the way Mike parker uses an internal HDMI Moome card in his own Marquee 8500 CRT projector ....

I do not have a Lumagen, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
My recommendation regarding mods, in order:

1. Get a gamma boost. Either you get the Moome HDMI w/ gamma or a VP that has gamma. The VP may be handy for other stuff. To me a gamma boost if a must-have.

2. If you intent to push contrast very hard, get frankenyokes (if you can)

3. To me VNB+VIM are the latest choice as you do not intent on running 1080p60 on a 8" Marquee. If you do 1080i60 on a 8" Marquee the BW of the stock parts should be enough, I THINK (I've never ran this setup). Sure the mods will add more stuff, but frankenyokes aside, gamma boost is more noticeable.

If you have more than one source, a VP w/ gamma boost would be by #1 choice.

Yes the moome blows away the Hd fury as I have have had both, i put the HD fury up for sale a few hours after getting the Moome card and then orderd a second !!!! No comparison. the HD fury is a budget answer to HDCP issues. the Moome is the high end of it. With the lumagen you'll be able to do 1080p60 no problem with no softness after craig is done with the focus part of the set up. He is meticulous when it comes to that.

Athanasios

After speaking to Craig, I decided to get the Lumagen. I am debating between the hdp and hdq (because I am wondering whether or not I should use SDI for standard Def DVD). I am going to use a HDCP stripper in series before lumagen. This way, I can use RGBHV output of lumagen, without needing hdfury or moome.

Lumagen (at least HDP/HDQ) will not output 1080p/60. It's beyond it's bandwidth... You can overcome it limiting h. res. to about 1020 (if I remember correctly), or you can set it up for 1:2.35 format (~817p), cutting off top and bottom black bars. At any rate, 60Hz refresh rate will introduce judder, either 48Hz progressive or possibly 72Hz interlaced would probably be better IMHO.
Don't underestimate its (video processors) color, gamma etc correction abilities, they mean far more accurate reproduction achieved far easier... Personally, I am big supporter of them just for this reason,

Kris

You can get 1080p60 with reduced front and back porch settings. 1050 H adn I think 1780 or so V. also lower the V and H sync. trial and error of course. I use 800p@72 for scope and 1080p48 for 1.78.

Athanasios

I have a marquee 9500 LC Ultra, currently being installed with latest mike parker mods.
Seating distance 21'. screen width 95"
95% of my viewing is OTA HD prime time. Rarely do I use a DVD or BD. In future, I intend to get a digital projector for Movie viewing at 150" because my screen width is actually 150", currently masked to 95" for CRT.


Isn't 21' a bit long for an 8' screen? Even moving up to 150" I would sit a little closer than 21'.

Isn't 21' a bit long for an 8' screen? Even moving up to 150" I would sit a little closer than 21'.

I agree its like watching my 27 inch from my bed 18 feet away, thats not home theater.

Athanasios

nothing more really needed to add here, just that I agree 100% that you *must* use a scaler with that 9500 ;) , anything less would be a shame :)

I would also strongly suggest the moome card over the stripper, you avoid a lot of problem areas by using the moome instead

-Gary

Lumagen (at least HDP/HDQ) will not output 1080p/60. It's beyond it's bandwidth.
Kris,

I never had a problem getting 1080P/60. However, 1080P/72 exceeded the bandwidth but could still be used by reducing HRES.

If your HDP/HDQ will not output 1080P/60, please contact Lumagen Support:
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=support

it wont Input 1080p60 the input chip is limited to 1080i60,1080p24/30, but only blu ray sourses and HTPC's will do that, but with Blu ray I'd want the native disc content which is almost always 1080p24 and with the HTPC you could switch it to output 1080p30. then the lumagen will do the up conversion of the scanrate if you wish with no scaling. I wouldnt want any player doing anything to the signal, the lumgen would do a much better job of that than any player or HTPC could.

Athanasios

Clarence - I think Athanasios put my thoughts far better... :D.
That's more or less what I understand... I remember big discussion about it about year ago or so, revolving around ways to lower the bandwidth below HDP' limit.
I "accidentally" tried feeding Lumagen->DC-DA1->Ampro 1080p/60 (PS3 was on its default settings, and apparently Dtronics DC-DA1 EDID allows for 1080p, so that was what it switched to...). Image was very unstable and had now and then flickering horizontal lines. Fed directly to PJ, it was OK.
Not that personally I would be interested in 1080p/60 from 24fps (film) material. You really CAN see that judder...
I used to run Marquee 8000 (modded) at 1080i/60 for video-based material, and 1080p/48 for film, using HD-DVD as source (A1 1080i/60 deinterlaced and converted by HDP) with decent results. I had custom timings with porches as small as possible, to minimize flicker, and it really didn't bother me at all.
I am now in process of setting-up Ampro 4200G for 1:2.35 (817x1920p 48Hz from PS3 1080p/24), and so far it looks pretty darn good:) .
That was the essence of my argument for scaler (specially with such high-end PJ like M9500). It allows you tremendous flexibility, not possible with any other configuration.


Kris

No, I don't want to spend $4000 on the lumagen Radiance.. I might as well invest that in a future digital projector.
The irony of which is that the Radiance is actually more useful on digital projectors that CRT projectors because digital projectors usually have primary colours that are considerably more 'off' than those of CRT projectors. The Radiance is only of the only (the only actually I think) high end scaler that allows for advanced colour management to adjust primaries. Not needed for CRT projectors but needed for many many higher end digitals.

Kal

The irony of which is that the Radiance is actually more useful on digital projectors that CRT projectors because digital projectors usually have primary colours that are considerably more 'off' than those of CRT projectors. The Radiance is only of the only (the only actually I think) high end scaler that allows for advanced colour management to adjust primaries. Not needed for CRT projectors but needed for many many higher end digitals.

Kal

Exactly !!!

Athanasios

First, a disclaimer. The following comments are being made only to help someone who might be in a similar predicament as i was recently. They are not meant to start a flaming discussion nor to imply that others who are using scalers are incorrect with their choices. Perhaps their personal preferences and tastes make the scaler more suitable for their situations and they might well be the majority..

I started this thread wondering aloud whether or not I need a scaler for my 9500lc ultra. Thats because.. a very knowledgeable friend - odyssey on this forum - told me not to get a scaler and just use a DVI/HDMI to RGBHV converter. Currently, I am using a DCDA1 for that. He is certainly more knowledgeable than me. He has even the $35,000 snell and wilcox scaler (I don't know if he is still using it in his main theater-not G90 room- but the point is.. he does have experience with ultra high end scalers too). Anyway, he said he was using is G90 with component inputs and no scaler. Long story short.. I should have listened to him. He did comment that mike parker mods would show improvement!
Bottom line.. the scaler did not offer a superior picture. I did an a/b using lumagen's pass thru between 1080i and 1080p60. I did not use test patterns for the comparision.. just hd picture. I found that 1080p60 did not offer a superior picture for my own preference. I was able to use the lumagen's rgbhv out because i used a hdsp stripper in series.
Based on my recent experience, I felt that the first preference should be for Mike Parker Mods. I think they do show a visible improvement and a superior picture. Its now more sharp and dynamic.

Thanks Mike Parker and Tim martin.
By the way, I have heard of Tim martin's reputation in the past and this is my first business transaction with him. Based on my experience..I can now attest that he is a very sincere and honest person. Of course.. he know marquees too well! I would recommend Tim for any of your marquee needs!

On a basically unmodded (I know you have MP's mods) 9500 Ultra w/ stock tubes, running 1080i direct is an OK way to go.
The reason is that the focus isn't that good on the 9500 with stock lens's, stock focus coils and P19LCP tubes. You just can't make the spot that small so consequently even though there will be scan lines the picture isn't that undersaturated.
Now take an ultra and add P19LUG's, KD22-22 focus coils, G90 HD10F lens's or HFQ's and 2/4/6/pole CPC and you will have a machine that creates a much smaller spot, similar to a G90. That translates into a very undersaturated picture with very visable scan lines at 1080i that really needs to be converted to 1080P.
Running 1080i on a stock G90 is just terrible because of the scan lines. You either have to defocus it or put in a scaler to take the 1080i to 1080P.

Terry

Chuchuf, actually it was based on your comments that I had six pole magnets also installed. I was told by the calibrator that the dots were perfectly round (I saw them and they were perfectly round) and that my projector was among the best he has seen for focus also and the dot. Mike Parker made some further modifications to his micron mods and the result is very good.. perhaps I should call it even stunning.
With regard to scan lines, I sit at 21' with a 95" wide picture. Even during a/b switching and evaluation, the calibrator and I were sitting at 16 feet - 2X picture width. I suppose at 12 feet (1.5X width being min seating distance recommended?), the scan lines would have been more evident.
At 21', I not only don't see scan lines being an issue, I had this 'vague' feeling that the picture appeared to be "more pure and cleaner" without the scaler. Of course, I don't mean to preach to you.. obviously a professional expert in this field.. and mine being only a non professional & non technical observation of course.

While the 6 pole magnets certainly do give you additional adjustability on the shape of the dots as well as flare, they don't perform like the KD22-22 focus coils for making the dot smaller (we measured the dots between stock focus coild and KD22-22's), improve he focus like the lens's I measured or reduce spot size like the P19LUG tubes do.
So with that said, and after building and setting up lots of 9500's both modded and unmodded, I stand by my statements.
Sitting 21' away from such a screen will also help with 1080i.

Terry
Chuchuf, actually it was based on your comments that I had six pole magnets also installed. I was told by the calibrator that the dots were perfectly round (I saw them and they were perfectly round) and that my projector was among the best he has seen for focus also and the dot. Mike Parker made some further modifications to his micron mods and the result is very good.. perhaps I should call it even stunning.
With regard to scan lines, I sit at 21' with a 95" wide picture. Even during a/b switching and evaluation, the calibrator and I were sitting at 16 feet - 2X picture width. I suppose at 12 feet (1.5X width being min seating distance recommended?), the scan lines would have been more evident.
At 21', I not only don't see scan lines being an issue, I had this 'vague' feeling that the picture appeared to be "more pure and cleaner" without the scaler. Of course, I don't mean to preach to you.. obviously a professional expert in this field.. and mine being only a non professional & non technical observation of course.

While the 6 pole magnets certainly do give you additional adjustability on the shape of the dots as well as flare, they don't perform like the KD22-22 focus coils for making the dot smaller (we measured the dots between stock focus coild and KD22-22's), improve he focus like the lens's I measured or reduce spot size like the P19LUG tubes do.
So with that said, and after building and setting up lots of 9500's both modded and unmodded, I stand by my statements.
Sitting 21' away from such a screen will also help with 1080i.
TerryI am sure you are right.. but frankly.. I think I am done with CRTs.. I just cant deal with the tweaking anymore. The sheer size and calibration etc.. makes it difficult! I gotta see this RS2.. but.. I have a feeling that I will change my mind and keep my CRT..