Don't you guys get why people want bright colors, vivid images, crystal clear images, 3D like scenes, etc. etc. etc.

Folks that just walk out of a store paying $400 on a player, after looking at demos of Pirates, Narnia, Cars, Ratatouille etc.

LOL what the hell do you think these people are going to want??????????

I mean seriously, you think they want grain and soft focus images?

You think they give a damn about director's intent?

They want their player to produce "window" like effects, not grain.

I'm not saying I'm condoning it, but the folks in here getting so upset about DNR and EE, and then claiming to just not understand why people like results like Patton, is really starting to annoy me. Its just not that hard to understand people.

J6p's should be pogram'ed.

Don't you guys get why people want bright colors, vivid images, crystal clear images, 3D like scenes, etc. etc. etc.

Folks that just walk out of a store paying $400 on a player, after looking at demos of Pirates, Narnia, Cars, Ratatouille etc.

LOL what the hell do you think these people are going to want??????????

I mean seriously, you think they want grain and soft focus images?

You think they give a damn about director's intent?

They want their player to produce "window" like effects, not grain.

I'm not saying I'm condoning it, but the folks in here getting so upset about DNR and EE, and then claiming to just not understand why people like results like Patton, is really starting to annoy me. Its just not that hard to understand people.

So long as it's appropriate for the movie, I'm good. When they're removing detail to kill the grain, it sort of defeats the purpose. As a wise man once said...

It's just not that hard to understand people.

Ta-da! That's all the more this discussion needs. Now... where's Mark?

Please use one of the 700 threads that are already open on this.

Don't you guys get why people want bright colors, vivid images, crystal clear images, 3D like scenes, etc. etc. etc.

Folks that just walk out of a store paying $400 on a player, after looking at demos of Pirates, Narnia, Cars, Ratatouille etc.

LOL what the hell do you think these people are going to want??????????

I mean seriously, you think they want grain and soft focus images?

You think they give a damn about director's intent?

They want their player to produce "window" like effects, not grain.

I'm not saying I'm condoning it, but the folks in here getting so upset about DNR and EE, and then claiming to just not understand why people like results like Patton, is really starting to annoy me. Its just not that hard to understand people.


Who says we don't understand it? Those of us who have been in the trenches with the anti-OAR crowd since the early days understand Joe Six Pack all too well. DNR is just another iteration of the same old argument.

Basically, as always, these camps are devided into two groups: 1) the group that views movies as art, 2) the group that views movies as mindless entertainment that exists soley for their personal enjoyment.

So long as it's appropriate for the movie, I'm good. When they're removing detail to kill the grain, it sort of defeats the purpose. As a wise man once said...

It's just not that hard to understand people.

Ta-da! That's all the more this discussion needs. Now... where's Mark?

Oh I understand it. I just don't get why some people have no idea why some people don't want grain.

Again, they spent a lot of money on their Bluray player, they've seen the demo material at Best Buy. They want crystal clear perfection.

I'm glad you get that. Others on here just don't.

Don't you guys get why people want bright colors, vivid images, crystal clear images, 3D like scenes, etc. etc. etc.

Folks that just walk out of a store paying $400 on a player, after looking at demos of Pirates, Narnia, Cars, Ratatouille etc.


You misunderstand, we get why people want all of that, but this is the AVScience forum. This is a bit like people buying a CD player and then demanding that everything ever produced should sound like it was recorded last week for the top 40 chart. Just go back and take out all the dynamic range, filter the hell out of the sound and re-EQ it like it's going to be played by a cheap car stereo. This is in effect what some people are asking to happen to all the films that come out in HD.

Who says we don't understand it? Those of us who have been in the trenches with the anti-OAR crowd since the early days understand Joe Six Pack all too well. DNR is just another iteration of the same old argument.

Basically, as always, these camps are devided into two groups: 1) the group that views movies as art, 2) the group that views movies as mindless entertainment that they can use to show off their COOL GEAR or kill a couple of hours.

From what I've read... a lot of folks don't get it.

There is a 3rd group: The group that wants to respect the art so badly, they just don't understand group 2 at all.

From what I've read... a lot of folks don't get it.

There is a 3rd group: The group that wants to respect the art so badly, they just don't understand group 2 at all.

Oh, I'm sure there are 500 or more groups. But I've only encountered people in the two groups I described above.

Just because people in group 1 occassionally wish people in group 2 would die doesn't mean they don't understand them.

I was thinking about this too. People here always ask for the best, reference material to demo BD, but maybe that's not a good idea. Maybe they are setting up the viewers for unrealistic expectations. I always thought that if I was to produce my own demo disc, I'd use a variety of sources, including some that don't look very good.

I'm firmly in the camp that wants movies to be presented as they are, but I can still understand that someone who was led to believe that everything would look like reference material would be disappointed.

I believe that the majority of consumers are uneducated or uninterested in what most who read forums like this look for in transfers. You've got to remember that film and home video enthusiasts are the minority. Average Joe who walks into a Best Buy has no idea why Ratatouille looks the way it does. We do, but he doesn't. When he sees demo material like Pixar films or current films that were generated from a 16x9 HDSR with the correct OAR at 4:4:4 using AVC from an immaculate DI, he expects that 24/7. We know that isn't going to be the case for every film due to a wide spectrum of reasons (source material, studio willing to spend $$$ to clean the master, etc).

Yes, I think it's wrong for studios like New Line or Fox to introduce DNR. I am totally shocked at New Line. They should be ashamed of themselves. After seeing Xylons A/B of PAN's, I shook my head in disbelief. I guess Shoot Em Up slid under Michael and Bob's radar (like they have any say on this matter anyway).

I think all they need is some sort of disclaimer, like the one about black bars. Something that, in essence, says "It's supposed to be that way", and to hell with them if they don't like it.

For me, DNR serves the exact opposite purpose than it's intention. The one complaint I hear about more than any other is the reduction in fine object detail. That's precisely what I want in a Blu-ray movie, are the tiny, microscopic details that are only a pixel or two wide. It seems the best BDs I own are the ones that simply have a very good, high-detail, original transfer. Blade Runner, I'm looking at you. There's one shot in particular of the Tyrell building that simply made my jaw drop because of how much frikkin' detail was on the screen.

Along similar lines, I prefer to watch DVDs on my DVD player rather than through my PS3, which upscales it. The reason is that it appears to apply some sort of DNR to it during the upscaling that's supposed to smooth the edges or eliminate grain or compression noise or some such. But I've also noticed it tends to give the image an "artificial" look.. a little too digital and fake-looking. I've mentioned it to friends of mine, and some of them agree that even low-res DVDs look better on big screen TVs when in their original form.

Don't you guys get why people want bright colors, vivid images, crystal clear images, 3D like scenes, etc. etc. etc.

Folks that just walk out of a store paying $400 on a player, after looking at demos of Pirates, Narnia, Cars, Ratatouille etc.

LOL what the hell do you think these people are going to want??????????

I mean seriously, you think they want grain and soft focus images?

You think they give a damn about director's intent?

They want their player to produce "window" like effects, not grain.

I'm not saying I'm condoning it, but the folks in here getting so upset about DNR and EE, and then claiming to just not understand why people like results like Patton, is really starting to annoy me. Its just not that hard to understand people.

I got a top end denon player last week 3800BCI cost $1999 i lot it the best player on the market it look so real the image.

Along similar lines, I prefer to watch DVDs on my DVD player rather than through my PS3, which upscales it. The reason is that it appears to apply some sort of DNR to it during the upscaling that's supposed to smooth the edges or eliminate grain or compression noise or some such. But I've also noticed it tends to give the image an "artificial" look.. a little too digital and fake-looking. I've mentioned it to friends of mine, and some of them agree that even low-res DVDs look better on big screen TVs when in their original form.

I'm not sure what you mean by original form, because any HDTV has to upscale the image on a DVD if you want it to fill the screen (by filling the screen, I mean in one direction, maintaining the OAR). If the player doesn't upscale, the TV has to do it. Maybe you just prefer your TV's upscaling? Or are you talking about using a standard definition TV?

BTW, have you tried playing with the upscaling options on the PS3? They have a noise reduction feature now that you might want to make sure is turned off.

I'm surprised this topic hasn't come up before OP.:rolleyes:

oh wait. It's the companion thread to "why do people always want 3D pop". Or "Grain Allowed". "The sword against DNR". "DNR 2: The legend of EE's gold."

Don't you guys get why people want bright colors, vivid images, crystal clear images, 3D like scenes, etc. etc. etc.

Folks that just walk out of a store paying $400 on a player, after looking at demos of Pirates, Narnia, Cars, Ratatouille etc.

The Pirates and Narnia movies have plenty of grain from what I've seen, and the other two are obviously CGI. So if you're referring to the Patton DNR posts, I guess you could say they're making it look like CGI, but not like Pirates...

Anyway, I think most of us who hate DNR and other digital manipulation understand the want for pretty pictures just fine. I want Cars to look as vivid and clean as it's supposed to, just like I want Cast Away to look as gritty as it's supposed to.

Oh, I'm sure there are 500 or more groups. But I've only encountered people in the two groups I described above.

Just because people in group 1 occassionally wish people in group 2 would die doesn't mean they don't understand them.

Haha, I wasn't expecting to get any laughs out of this thread.

The bottom line is that people don't calibrate their TVs. The sharpness and contrast is cranked way up, and J6P doesn't understand why Blu-ray looks so gritty. All that edge-enhancement caked around grain is enough to make anyone run for cover. Crank the sharpness down on your set people.

And if you still want DNR so badly....go into the menu on your TV and you'll find a stupid little option called DNR. Turn it on to ruin the film to your liking.

I'm not sure what you mean by original form, because any HDTV has to upscale the image on a DVD if you want it to fill the screen (by filling the screen, I mean in one direction, maintaining the OAR). If the player doesn't upscale, the TV has to do it.
Yeah, I know, I just meant that the only thing going on is the upscaling itself. Like increasing the size of an image in Photoshop. No tricks, no trying to tidy it up or make it "better", just make it bigger and that's it. That's what my TV does with the 480p input from the DVD player. I just think it looks better that way than what the PS3 is outputting. It's more natural and less artificial. I also didn't realize the PS3 had adjustable options for that.. I thought it was only the upscaler that could be adjusted (i.e. how the image is stretched or sized), and not the post-processing effects.

That's what my TV does with the 480p input from the DVD player. I just think it looks better that way than what the PS3 is outputting. It's more natural and less artificial.

PS3: you could set the upscaler off and have the TV do the 480p up-conversion. If you are watching 4:3 then set the upscaler to double and use the TV zoom feature to move the 14x9 image up or down until the scene is centered. It's not as good as using the Oppo but it's close.

If you just got a PS3 then to make it look as good as HD-DVD you will have to set it to RBG since it defaults to Component level output over HDMI. Unfortunately it tends to induce EE, just a little more than the Oppo. I find that my TV's up scaler is not as good as the PS3's (when the PS3 up scaler is set to Off.)

I guess it depends on the DVD player, but a cheapo $50 with a 27MHz (PS2 for example) doesn't cut it. Even a 54MHz DAC doesn't cut it. A 108MHz DAC looks the best. But it's still not as sharp as HD.

We have many threads that cover these topics. This discussion is nothing new. Please use an existing thread to voice your opinion