Received this today and was anxiously awaiting a PQ far superior to the infamously bad looking dvd. Unfortunately this transfer does not rate amongst the top tier titles and offers only slight upgrade in picture. Though ringing is not nearly as bad as it was, it's still there and picture tends to look pretty flat.

Those expecting a 10/10 are in for a disappointment.

Are you talking about the PQ of the U.S version or the U.K version or the upcoming German version with DTS-HD MA ?:confused:

US R1 DVD

US R1 DVD

If they used the same terrible master from 2003 then yes, it probably will still look awful.

Wait a minute. I am still confused. Are you talking about the US R1 DVD or US Blu-ray ?:confused:

Both the US and UK DVDs look terrible. Famous for horrid EE. The UK BD from EiV was based on this terrible master, they tried to fix it with even more EE and some DNR.

People were hoping the US BD from Disney would be using a new/better transfer. If dtsguy's impressions are correct, this is not the case.

I have both and while still not great, the UK version has WAY less EE than the american dvd.

http://www.dvdactive.com/editorial/articles/gangs-of-new-york-r1-vs-r2.html

Look at the letter M in Miramax.

Expecting 10/10 would be nothing but foolishness from this film IMO.

But exactly how much improvement are we talking about here? The Fugitive type upgrade, which is just barely when I was switching between sources. Or Spiderman 1 type upgrade, which isn't that great either, but it's certainly noticeable and recommended for fans of the film.

This is what happens when the companys run out of good masters and use old stuff that should have needed to remaster.

Expecting 10/10 would be nothing but foolishness from this film IMO.



Totally agree that the film was shot in 10,000 B.C and the engineers at Miramax won't be able to give us a 10/10 video presentation as the source elements have been damaged by nuclear warheads and dinosaurs :eek:

Come on. There is nothing wrong in expecting a 10/10 PQ for a recent film shot by the legendary Scorcese.

Totally agree that the film was shot in 10,000 B.C and the engineers at Miramax won't be able to give us a 10/10 video presentation as the source elements have been damaged by nuclear warheads and dinosaurs :eek:

Come on. There is nothing wrong in expecting a 10/10 PQ for a recent film shot by the legendary Scorcese.

We'll I've seen your posts and I pretty much disagree with everything you've ever said, so I won't argue with you.

But, it was shot to look rough. And in the theaters it looked pretty beat up. That's just the way the film is, besides getting rid of EE and other stuff that was added to the DVD I don't know what else you'd want.

Not every film is capable of looking like a 5/5.

We'll I've seen your posts and I pretty much disagree with everything you've ever said, so I won't argue with you.

Well that was quite harsh.

Perhaps you forgot to see the "Big Grin" emoticon. I am aware that Expectations and Reality are always on the opposite ends.

Expecting 10/10 would be nothing but foolishness from this film IMO.

But exactly how much improvement are we talking about here? The Fugitive type upgrade, which is just barely when I was switching between sources. Or Spiderman 1 type upgrade, which isn't that great either, but it's certainly noticeable and recommended for fans of the film.


GONY looks a little cleaner and some (not all) of the EE is gone........and hey- nice to have the film on ONE disc :)
Obviously this is one viewer's opinion; this could come out and everyone might love the transfer.....

I don't have the DVD or any other version of it so I'm looking forward to the Blu-ray version coming my way on release day.

Come on. There is nothing wrong in expecting a 10/10 PQ for a recent film shot by the legendary Scorcese.

Pet peeve: It is SCORSESE.

Gangs looked great when I saw it in the theater. The DVD was an abomination.

I don't have the DVD or any other version of it so I'm looking forward to the Blu-ray version coming my way on release day.

I'm in the same boat. I can't imagine the BD not looking noticeably better than I remember the DVD looking.

Is it region free?

Gangs looked great when I saw it in the theater. The DVD was an abomination.

I attended the premiere in LA and it looked great there, too.

Vincent

Sad news. I was looking forward to this one.

me too.

Man I was really hoping for one of BV's stunning Blu-Ray's for this one, but that doesn't seem likely if they didn't do a new transfer.

I'm still going to get it - I'm hoping the PCM track makes it worthwhile.

Hugely disappointed. Was my most anticipated BR release, but I doubt I'll get this.

If it's atleast a 3/5 I won't cancel my preorder.

That is not good news though...

I was really looking forward to this one. :(

I'm still buying it. Who's into BDs for the PQ anyway?;)

Does it sound more violent? Tell us about the audio.

I still have my fingers crossed for "Gangs of NY: The Musical" with all the costumes, gangs, and choreography it just needs some songs. Violence worked for Sweeney, it could work here.

The French version from M6Video looks to be a winner.

http://www.dvdrama.com/rw_fiche-10027-.php

Martin Scorsese can rejoice. M6Vidéo took great care of his film and book a Blu-Ray edition of a full dress. A picture of what the publisher had done with the enemy Intime, encoding AVC / MPEG4 made and wonders if some scenes in low light reflected leave a very slight noise, the bill simply remains generally excellent (even if the image can seem a little too smooth by time, not enough texture). The image has a magnificent dive, further enhanced by a depth of field that provides a wonderful spectacle at large. Apart from a vertical stripe on the film at the end of the first battle, the master is impeccable. The color management is exemplary and we are enjoying a burst of first choice. The compression knows when to forget and he skilfully emerges from viewing a beautiful fluidity ambient. One thing is sure, Scorsese's film found its brio

Dammit, now I don't know what to do! Many thanks, lgans.

Hold on here's the first review I've seen of the US Blu-ray and it calls the BD a "glorious treatment" of the film.

http://www.dvdreview.com/reviews/pages/2856.shtml

Interesting. No mention of EE or the fact that the DVD was considered one of the worst EE messes ever.

Mr. Harris just totally blasted it over at HTF

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/ht-software-high-definition/273525-few-words-about-gangs-new-york-blu-ray.html

Exactly what I feared. They probably used the 5 year old horribly DNR'd and EE'd master.

Mr. Harris just totally blasted it over at HTF



Whoa. "Blasted" is right. Harris is usually quite sober. GONY BRD must really, um, suck.

I bet it's just as bad as the abysmal DVD. Just now the artificially tweaked image is now CLEARER! The EE is SHARPER!

Pass.

Predicted it would suck but I didn't want to be right! Can't wait to see Xylon drag this carcas to one of his threads though.

Like Patton, Gangs of New York is the new poster child for precisely what NOT to do with the Blu-ray software system.

Blu-ray software system? Yeah, like DNR is format exclusive. :D

Mr. Harris just totally blasted it over at HTF.

As much as I am disappointed by this news, it was a refreshing change-of-pace to see Mr. Harris stop pussy-footing around and just rip a title a new one. :D With him on our side, perhaps there's hope.

So, a European import it is then.

This makes me very, very, very sad.

So, a European import it is then.But which European import?

French version from M6Video or the to-be-released German version from Splendid.Thanks for that. Is the French version confirmed to be region-free?

The French version from M6Video looks to be a winner.

But... We have no idea if these versions (French/German) are actually better in any sense.
They can look the same for all we know, and that particular reviewer might not have noticed (or been bothered by) the flaws.

It could also be a question of equipment.

Just like the reviewer on dvdreview, who called the transfer "wonderfully rich" etc.

Hopefylly we will know more soon enough, though...

Prediction: they're all going to be bad. If Disney in the US can't even produce a different better transfer then what makes you think France or Germany will get something better?

Im keeping my preorder. I don't care about reviews of disks. As long as the movie looks like a step up from dvd in any increment, i will be satisfied. (Which I assume it does) I could care less if it isn't anywhere near reference quality. I must have low standards....

My review will be up on Monday but I would give it a 1.75/5 for video and a 3.5 for audio. One of the worst looking BDs I've seen period. Reminded me of Scary Movie and the HD DVD release of 40 Year Old Virgin.

*cries*

:(

Prediction: they're all going to be bad. If Disney in the US can't even produce a different better transfer then what makes you think France or Germany will get something better?

It seems studios feel they must dumb down releases for the U.S. public. Other regions seem to have less DNR generally speaking.

I'll bet it's as simple as they didn't want to make a new 1080P transfer and so they used the 5 year old one that looked horrid.
Didn't the UK version released last year get pretty bad reviews too?

I loved the style and look of this film in theaters. It is a grand movie that deserves a solid transfer. Quite frankly I'm pissed and can't see myself buying a copy of this. Sad, too, because it's a movie I love.

Hold on here's the first review I've seen of the US Blu-ray and it calls the BD a "glorious treatment" of the film.

http://www.dvdreview.com/reviews/pages/2856.shtml

DVD Review? Ha! That's a good one. I think I'll take Robert Harris' opinion over theirs.

I just canceled my pre-order and put it in my Netflix queue, as I'd still like to see the movie, since I haven't yet, and this is likely as good as it's going to get until a new master is struck.

It seems studios feel they must dumb down releases for the U.S. public. Other regions seem to have less DNR generally speaking.

That is true but I doubt there's any DNRless transfer of GONY out there. A shame because this film deserves so much better.

It looks like Disney has just reused whatever transfer they had when they made the dvd, which also looked quite poor. I have a suspicion that Disney has been cherrypicking already existing good looking transfers for its catalog releases for some time. But now that the Blu-ray market is getting bigger their criteria seems more geared towards saleability which might lead to poorer looking catalog releases without new HD transfers. It seems the studios are in a tough bind as many of these catalog titles are just not selling that well on Blu-ray.

very true unfortunately.

I have a suspicion that Disney has been cherrypicking already existing good looking transfers for its catalog releases for some time. But now that the Blu-ray market is getting bigger their criteria seems more geared towards saleability which might lead to poorer looking catalog releases without new HD transfers. It seems the studios are in a tough bind as many of these catalog titles are just not selling that well on Blu-ray.

If that's the case then they should just wait instead of pushing an inferior version upon the public. There's plenty of catalog titles that have "disc ready" transfers. Give us Herbie Fully Loaded. Total reference transfer. :D

I'm not kidding either. Looked great on cable.

I was soooo looking to pick this up... Guess I will just keep the money in my wallet.

Maybe if everyone makes a big fuss like they did about the Fifth Element and the Pirates mis-framing, Disney will release a better version?

If what they say PQ is only a minor improvement, I believe that is lazy on team behind releasing the BD.They cannot say there is not much that can be done when we saw with our own eyes Warriors on Hd that improvement alone is amazing.I guess there mentality is it's on BD and it's going to sell just get it out there regardless how it looks.Problem is start doing that and we are all going to wise up and not bother with these old releases until we rent them first.

I've sampled the disc for the last hour and, yes it does seem to be a bit too "smooth," but at the same time, it's definitely NOT "horrible" or "unwatchable" or a "minor improvement." In fact it is a significant improvement over the regular DVD release, if not quite perfect.

I admire Mr. Harris' work but if memory serves he didn't find many faults with BRAM STOKERS DRACULA and yet is condemning this release outright? Frankly I don't get it. This isn't maybe an IDEAL presentation of GANGS OF NEW YORK but it is far, far, far from the worst BD disc I've seen...

I get my disc on Monday. I'll post some comparison shots vs the UK BD from the EE/DNR thread.

I'll probably keep it since I don't have the DVD and I like the movie.

Well, I cancelled my order after reading all of the comments. I hope those that purchase it will be satisfied.

If they did use the same master from the 2003 dvd then the excessive EE alone is enough to make me skip it though. Look at the opening battle. Looks horrid.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/imgcache/31691.imgcache (http://imageshack.us)

Well, I cancelled my order after reading all of the comments. I hope those that purchase it will be satisfied.

Same here. I was really looking forward to this.

I jokingly suggest that some studios should DNR then EE to cancel it out. I didn't know any of them actually did that. Now that I think about it I only watched the DVD once when I bought it. Maybe that's why. Because I love the film.

I get my disc on Monday. I'll post some comparison shots vs the UK BD from the EE/DNR thread.

I'll probably keep it since I don't have the DVD and I like the movie.

Mine is on it's way so it will be intersting see the how it looks.

Pre order canceled.

I own the dvd and have never noticed bad quality...maybe back the color off a little bit, but that's about it. Exactly what is DNR and EE? I was really wanting to get this in HD...I'll probably still buy it anyway.

EE=Edge Enhamcement.
Gangs has one of the worst cases ever exhibited.


http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm

I own the dvd and have never noticed bad quality...maybe back the color off a little bit, but that's about it. Exactly what is DNR and EE? I was really wanting to get this in HD...I'll probably still buy it anyway.

Notice the Halo around DDL in the above picture? That is EE. DNR is digital noise reduction.

From DVDBeaver:
Returning to the question of style, the Blu-ray image is perhaps too much of a good thing, for now we can see clearly what we might not have noticed in the theatre: the lighting, which is not supposed to be so apparent as to bring our attention to it. The smaller your screen them more this will become apparent – such is the liability of high definition in respect to some feature films.

:confused:

EE=Edge Enhamcement.
Gangs has one of the worst cases ever exhibited.


http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm
Thanks Dave. That was an interesting read.

That DVDBeaver review makes me want to go out and buy the disc when it comes out. I know they're low res but those screen caps sure look nice. As for his comments on the lighting: HD exposes the flaws as well as revealing the details of film. In this case, I think he's saying that he could tell on several occasions that they were using artificial lighting and that it really stood out, breaking immersion.

Well the theatrical version would then break even more immersion. Looked fine to me in the theater. maybe he just didn't dig the obviously stylized style.

Thanks Dave. That was an interesting read.

You're welcome, leem.

:)

Well the theatrical version would then break even more immersion. Looked fine to me in the theater. maybe he just dig the obviously stylized style.
No clue. All I know is, I'm dying to know what this release actually looks like because I was looking forward to it so much.

Based on the pictures on the DVDBeaver site... the PQ looks excellent. I'm buying this no matter what. The movie is amazing, and I want it on the best possible format.

24bit audio??? On gangs of NY? I want. But they DNRd then EEd. AHHH.
Damn you disney, for actually adding in 24bit audio when you put it on the box.

Maybe if we complain to Disney after it's released they will correct like they did POTC or the way Sony did with T5E.

IMO BVHE have been throwing us titles with old transfers.

1) The Signs - Plenty of dirt / white specks
2) Recruit - Meh
3) Gangs of New York - EE / DNR ??
4) National Treasure - 1 - Borderline but nothing to complain about
5) Enemy of the State - Dirty & speck filled transfer
6) Pearl Harbor - Noisy
7) Scary Movie - EE + DNR
8) Coyote Ugly - Meh
9) Unbreakable - Meh

I am sure they just recycled the master from 2003. That's exactly how bad it was then.

The PQ for the trailer on the US DVD looked far superior to the movie PQ, that's the PQ they should use to get the picture anywhere near to an adequate quality for Blu-Ray.

This sounds very disappointing for a title I had really been looking forward to. However, I'll wait to read final reviews by Kris Deering and HDD before making up my mind.

Got my copy today. Transfer is 100% identical to the UK version, just slightly higher bitrate with VC1 encoding. So that means probably the worst EE you've ever seen, and DNR too. Some in door shots look nice with lots of grain and no EE, but for the majority of the movie it looks processed to hell.

Got my copy today. Transfer is 100% identical to the UK version, just slightly higher bitrate with VC1 encoding. So that means probably the worst EE you've ever seen, and DNR too. Some in door shots look nice with lots of grain and no EE, but for the majority of the movie it looks processed to hell.

Ugh that transfer sucks so bad. IDK why some movies get such terrible treatment while others do not. At least they put on 24bit PCM, which will outdo the DTS on the UK release. I guess I will give this a rental, rather than buy it like I intended.

Looks like these days we'll have to wait for an anniversary DVD re-release to get a new transfer for a catalog title. Probably not enough profit in HD discs right now to justify creating a new transfer exclusively for a HD release.

My Netflix copy will be here today so I will A/B with my dvd and throw up soon... :D

Hold on here's the first review I've seen of the US Blu-ray and it calls the BD a "glorious treatment" of the film.

http://www.dvdreview.com/reviews/pages/2856.shtml

Well, consider the source...

By now, I've heard from many word of mouth impressions from very credible sources (not formal "reviews"), and there's a very much growing consensus that this one is a stinker.; at least enough for me to rent first.

My Netflix copy will be here today so I will A/B with my dvd and throw up soon... :D

interested to read your impressions between the two.Just to think I was about to pre-order Lost Boys.Not anymore, if there is no improvement in PQ and SQ not going to bother with films already on SD.Lets hope BTTF shows a good improvement also.

My Netflix copy will be here today so I will A/B with my dvd and throw up soon... :D

How did you get it from Netflix a week early?

interested to read your impressions between the two.Just to think I was about to pre-order Lost Boys.Not anymore, if there is no improvement in PQ and SQ not going to bother with films already on SD.Lets hope BTTF shows a good improvement also.

Lost Boys was just recently on HDNet and it looked excellent.

Lost Boys was just recently on HDNet and it looked excellent.

Thats a good to hear:)

I have both and while still not great, the UK version has WAY less EE than the american dvd.

http://www.dvdactive.com/editorial/articles/gangs-of-new-york-r1-vs-r2.html

Look at the letter M in Miramax.
My...my...my, yet another BD PQ bashing thread.:eek::eek::eek:
I remember seeing this title several years ago on SD DVD and while not a fan of this particular Scorsese film, I remember being impressed with the PQ. So, naturally, I became intrigued about the "infamous" SD DVD transfer you talked about. I clicked on your link and.....oh, crap - the same ole judging a transfer by some blown-up screen shot argument. The full frame screen shot looks fantastic, but I guess that doesn't count. So I checked over at DVD Verdict....not a bad review of the SD DVD. See below:

Gangs of New York is presented in its original aspect ratio of 2.35:1 widescreen with an anamorphic enhancement. The nearly three hour epic is spread across two discs, the second part being the longest of the two. Generally speaking this transfer is in great shape, save for some surprising dirt and grain in the image. Since Gangs of New York is a brand spanking new film, it was a bit disappointing to see such imperfections in the image. However, putting that complaint aside the transfer is great—colors and black levels are all solid and dark with the flesh tones represented accurately. All in all this transfer isn't reference quality, but it should look good to fans of the film.

You know, I think with this film, Patton and The Longest Day some negative posters are getting all bent out of shape and not seeing "the forest for the trees."
I see numerous posts from fans of these films canceling their orders because their influenced by posters that are obsessed with grain, ee or what-have-you while respected professional reviewers that write glowing reviews of these titles are totally ignored. That's a darn shame too since future releases of BD catalog titles may well depend on how these 3 titles do sales wise.

No dude. You are SO way off on this. The EE on this title on SD is horrific. In the opening scene where the gangs are squaring off in the snow it looks like there are forcefields around the actors heads. If you can't see that then I seriously suggest an eye exam. This is not about grain vs. no grain preference of 3-d Pop. This is about electronic sharpening that has been added to the transfer.

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/4079/miramaxcomparrisonmc7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

No offense, but if you can't see the halos around the edges of the letter "M" in this shot on the left than either you do need your eyes checked!!!! ;)

and quoting a 5 year old review of the dvd by a reviewer who is now retired and didn't list his equipment is pointless. For all we know he was watching this on a 42" set. It might have looked just swell to him that way. Blow it up to 92" or more, (many here have much larger screens) and the electronic tinkering becomes way more obvious and distracting. And before you say, "well, blowing ANY DVD up to that size will look disappointing..." is not so. There are many many SD transfers that shine at that screensize.

some more perspective...

http://hometheatermag.com/moviereviews/062308gangs/



"Since I am a huge fan of this film I was really disappointed when I viewed this one on Blu-ray. The original DVD release of this film was pretty bad with excessive edge enhancement and compression issues. This HD release almost looks like a scaled up version of that same DVD and exhibits many of the same issues. This image has been so heavily processed that it doesn't even remotely resemble high quality HD. Fine detail and film grain have been completely removed and the image has a hard processed look that completely robs dimensionality and depth. Instead we're left with a flat image with noticeable noise reduction artifacts such as image swimming and details that look exaggerated and unrealistic. Honestly, this could be one of the worst looking HD presentations to date for a film that should have looked incredible on the format. I really hope Miramax recalls this one or goes back and redoes the master and transfer soon..."

No dude. You are SO way off on this. The EE on this title on SD is horrific. In the opening scene where the gangs are squaring off in the snow it looks like there are forcefields around the actors heads. If you can't see that then I seriously suggest an eye exam. This is not about grain vs. no grain preference of 3-d Pop. This is about electronic sharpening that has been added to the transfer.

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/4079/miramaxcomparrisonmc7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

If you can't see the halos around the edges of the letter "M" in this shot on the left than either you do need your eyes checked or you just like arguing here for the sake of it to get attention.
Dave...what are you doing, Dave? Damn, I forgot the rest of that Hal line in 2001: A Space Odyssey. Oh well...Dave, we look at movies differently. While the film is running most viewers wouldn't notice your "forcefield" unless they froze the frame...same as your "M." The only reason I freeze the frame is to get more popcorn.:D

:)
I hear ya bro, but believe it or not, in Gangs when DDL is standing still doing his opening speech, it looks like he has his "shields" on. VERY distracting. You don't need to pause the old DVD of this to see the phenomena.

:)

Dave...what are you doing, Dave? Damn, I forgot the rest of that Hal line in 2001: A Space Odyssey. Oh well...Dave, we look at movies differently. While the film is running most viewers wouldn't notice your "forcefield" unless they froze the frame...same as your "M." The only reason I freeze the frame is to get more popcorn.:D

Couldn't agree more! Thank you for bringing a sense or normalcy to this thread. I just can't believe everyone freaks out and cancels their orders just because a few people say there is edge enhancement. Maybe I'm the odd one, but when a movie is running, I'm not looking at the edge of the actor's head to see if there is EE... I'm too busy listening to the dialogue or paying attention to the story.

These picture quality Nazi's need to get off their soapbox.

Any news on the PQ from other regions?

picture quality nazis...?!?!?!

So why even upgrade? Why get into HD at all? Why buy a BD player..?!?!
Ummm... cluephone. many here bought into HD and BD to see a BETTER quality version of the films. Many are buying ANOTHER copy of these films in the new format to see an IMPROVED looking version of the films. That's why we're spending $ yet again. If all we were doing was "listening to the dialog or paying attention to the story" we could just watch it on a 13" B+W set on VHS.
Why even participate in a forum like AVS if you don't really care about the picture quality of these films? Why not just post on AICN or IMDB...?

And if something like this from SW:TPM looks ok to you

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/3839/bjoernyk4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

from Bjoern Roy's site...

http://www.videophile.info/Review/TPM/TPM_01.htm

then I don't know what to say. So many people here on AVS now bitch about all the grain in films and how they want that "looking out the window" look that they see on say ESPN HD. So, forcefields around people's heads is ok?

Any news on the PQ from other regions?

The UK BD released last year is suppossed to be just as bad if not worse.

My...my...my, yet another BD PQ bashing thread.:eek::eek::eek:
I remember seeing this title several years ago on SD DVD and while not a fan of this particular Scorsese film, I remember being impressed with the PQ. So, naturally, I became intrigued about the "infamous" SD DVD transfer you talked about. I clicked on your link and.....oh, crap - the same ole judging a transfer by some blown-up screen shot argument. The full frame screen shot looks fantastic, but I guess that doesn't count. So I checked over at DVD Verdict....not a bad review of the SD DVD. See below:

You know, I think with this film, Patton and The Longest Day some negative posters are getting all bent out of shape and not seeing "the forest for the trees."
I see numerous posts from fans of these films canceling their orders because their influenced by posters that are obsessed with grain, ee or what-have-you while respected professional reviewers that write glowing reviews of these titles are totally ignored. That's a darn shame too since future releases of BD catalog titles may well depend on how these 3 titles do sales wise.


WOW!!!!!!!!! You either need an eye exam or must be viewing on a tiny display from a long distance away. The SD DVD looks like EE **** on my 45"x108 screen. It even looks pathetic on my little 40" television.

Also, Luigi when you watched the DVD SEVERAL years ago, what display were you using? How big? Has alot to do with it.

Dave, we look at movies differently. While the film is running most viewers wouldn't notice your "forcefield" unless they froze the frame...same as your "M." The only reason I freeze the frame is to get more popcorn.:D

What do you mean 'look at movies differently'? Every disc is the exact same. The only thing that changes is the display. What do you have the sharpness on your display set to? There's only one right answer.

And you don't need to freeze frame. You just need to look at that picture for a while and your eyes and head will start to hurt.

BTW - luigi the future of BD is secure. Do you need proof - Metropolis, Final Countdown, and Faces of Death(who saw that one coming?) are arriving. Which means BD is official. EE and DNR are relics from the pre-HD days like legacy audio and MPEG2. They all need to be retired.

The SD-DVD was among the worst looking in history from a major studio. Absolute garbage. Most Disnet releases from that era were raped of detail and then caked in EE. Those same masters are now going to be used for BD, but with DVNR added. :mad:

Now, if you look at TOMBSTONE you will find a DVD that has so much EE that every object has a force field surrounding it, but the HD transfer is devoid of such problems, so hopefully not all hope is lost with 1080p.

or that the low bitrate 720P HD transfer on say, XBOX-LIVE or the new apple system look "good enough" since there will be many 1080P BD transfers that don't look any better to many. Lets' hope this doesn't happen.

Mr. Harris, unfortunately, this forum, like all the others, is becoming overrun with a variety of people who seem to want to lash out at others, authority, conventional wisdom, etc. There is no reason I can think of why anyone would apologise for FOX and now Disney for these abominations being released as perfect High Definition.

Reason plays no part in this.

For as long as I can remember those who seek excellence are going to be the victims of attacks. I remember being slammed in news forums for complaining about the lack of widescreen releases for certain laserdiscs.

Then there were the attacks on those of us who wanted anamorphic with DVD.

Good God, I was the victim of an insane Net stalker who tried to tarnish my reputation at every turn when I complained loudly about the British DVD company HONG KONG LEGENDS cropping 2.35:1 films to 1.85:1.

Never mind that that complaining resulted in HKL reversing their policy of cropping anamorphic films. Complaining openly and loudly got results.

I could go on and on with this. I could talk about the apologists who attacked anyone that wrote about how badly Anchor Bay screwed up the SUSPIRIA audio remix.

Or how about the SUPERMAN audio remix? Or the TERMINATOR audio remix? Or JAWS? To this day there are morons out there who say it is OK to throw out an old soundtrack in favor of an all new one that sounds nothing like the original. For some reason they see no need to provide "elitists" the inferior original.

But then again, maybe I should just shut up since I am going to be attacked for making this post. :(

Most Disney releases from that era were raped of detail and then caked in EE.

This makes me extremely leery of the Kill Bill releases forthcoming, I might add.

Now, if you look at TOMBSTONE you will find a DVD that has so much EE that every object has a force field surrounding it,

The Tombstone DVD is so bad that even the edge halos have their own edge halos. The e.e. goes two layers thick through most of the movie. :eek:

You do beging to wonder if certain members are just being argumentative. If "looking out the window" is what they want, edge enhancement is effectively the same kind of distraction as grain. It's something that makes the image look less like "looking out the window". As Dave pointed out, how many people have you seen in real life that look like they are wearing a personal forcefield?

some more perspective...

http://hometheatermag.com/moviereviews/062308gangs/



"Since I am a huge fan of this film I was really disappointed when I viewed this one on Blu-ray. The original DVD release of this film was pretty bad with excessive edge enhancement and compression issues. This HD release almost looks like a scaled up version of that same DVD and exhibits many of the same issues. This image has been so heavily processed that it doesn't even remotely resemble high quality HD. Fine detail and film grain have been completely removed and the image has a hard processed look that completely robs dimensionality and depth. Instead we're left with a flat image with noticeable noise reduction artifacts such as image swimming and details that look exaggerated and unrealistic. Honestly, this could be one of the worst looking HD presentations to date for a film that should have looked incredible on the format. I really hope Miramax recalls this one or goes back and redoes the master and transfer soon..."

Yes I saw Mr Harris review. I also saw on the same website a review by Matt Hough, the HTF reviewer who wrote:



Video Quality


3/5

The film’s 2.35:1 theatrical aspect ratio is captured in a 1080p transfer using the VC-1 codec. Sad to say, what you’ve read is true about the look of this film on Blu-ray. It’s been processed within an inch of its life so that all grain is gone and contrast has been dialed up to being slightly too hot giving the features of the actors a slightly waxen look that robs them of some detail and character.The picture is super sharp, but you can see edge enhancement often as a result of the processing. Color is rich, and blacks are stupefyingly deep, and many may actually enjoy this “video” look for the movie, but while I didn’t exactly despise it (hence the video score above), I didn’t think for a second that it looked like film. An added note: even with all of the processing, they still managed to miss some dirt specks that are still present in the image. The film has been divided into 24 chapters.......Gangs of New York is a very good but not great Martin Scorsese picture. (I much preferred his next two outings: The Aviator and The Departed). It’s a huge movie with great actors delivering some of their best-ever screen work, but my recommendation before you buy the disc is to rent the film if you’re curious to see how the processing will affect your enjoyment of the picture.



Emphasis is mine..
I think Mr Harris is being quite harsh in his assessment of this BD release and his vision may be compromised by his devotion to his craft. I think he's a superb technician but a film reviewer he is not. My own opinion is that Mr Hough's review was far more objective especially since his review followed Mr Harris' observations on the same website...not an enviable position. Of note is some talk going on as to why Mr Scorsese would sign off or allow these transfers if they were so horrid.:eek:

Josh, that TOMBSTONE release was suffering from both the dark side of the force and the good. It surrounded and enveloped everything and everyone... TWICE!

Paul, the KILL BILL SD-DVD releases are flat out terrible, but the HD transfers do not have the noise reduced and EE look of them. They are quite good, actually. I have them in 720p and 1080i and they obliterate the DVD's. However, as we see with GANGS, that is no guarantee of a high quality BD.

I'm not even going to say anything about the post right above this one in regards to his opinion of Mr. Harris because if I did I would likely get a good lashing from an admin. :mad:

My mind just boggles here.

http://hometheatermag.com/moviereviews/062308gangs/
Yes I saw Mr Harris review. I also saw on the same website a review by Matt Hough, the HTF reviewer who wrote:



Ummm. Louigi. You have to be kidding. Take a LITTLE time and read what you're quoting. That is NOT Mr. Harris' review from HTF, that is Mr. Deering's of HomeTheaterMag. Yet ANOTHER bad review by a well respected critic who has access to about the best home display technology available.


sheesh. If we're gonna debate at least be on the same page.


;)

Paul, the KILL BILL SD-DVD releases are flat out terrible, but the HD transfers do not have the noise reduced and EE look of them. They are quite good, actually. I have them in 720p and 1080i and they obliterate the DVD's. However, as we see with GANGS, that is no guarantee of a high quality BD.

Matt, that's good to hear re: Kill Bill. As you have rightly stated, there is no guarantee, so I will still be leery, but, perhaps, a little less so.

...and the thing is, even if Mr. Harris and Mr. Deering ARE being a bit harsh it's simply because this a wonderfully shot film with beautiful cinematography by a great DP and it SHOULD have been knocked out of the park. It is NOT an old film in dire need of restoration or some low budget film shot on mini-DV. It shouldn't just look "ok". I saw it in the theater on a huge screen on opening weekend and it was epic, amazing and fabulous looking. The DVD was a horrible representation and many were hoping with this new BD to see the film looking glorious again. By all accounts so far, it sounds like they simply used the 5 year old master that was riddled with EE and DVNR when they should've done the right thing and given us willing to repurchase the film again a new transfer.

My...my...my, yet another BD PQ bashing thread.:eek::eek::eek:
I remember seeing this title several years ago on SD DVD and while not a fan of this particular Scorsese film, I remember being impressed with the PQ. So, naturally, I became intrigued about the "infamous" SD DVD transfer you talked about. I clicked on your link and.....oh, crap - the same ole judging a transfer by some blown-up screen shot argument. The full frame screen shot looks fantastic, but I guess that doesn't count. So I checked over at DVD Verdict....not a bad review of the SD DVD. See below:

You know, I think with this film, Patton and The Longest Day some negative posters are getting all bent out of shape and not seeing "the forest for the trees."
I see numerous posts from fans of these films canceling their orders because their influenced by posters that are obsessed with grain, ee or what-have-you while respected professional reviewers that write glowing reviews of these titles are totally ignored. That's a darn shame too since future releases of BD catalog titles may well depend on how these 3 titles do sales wise.
Technically, the best thing I can say about the DVD of Gangs is that it looks like a pile of dog **** viewed with the wrong prescription glasses.

Haven't seen the Blu yet, but I would gather that at least we'll get the right prescription this time.

So now a piece of dog sh*t in focus...?


:)

Just for fun, here is Michael Douglas from BASIC INSTINCT. LionsGate BD release.

It suffers from DVNR as well. His face is just too waxy. Most of the BD looks smeared.

More so than the HD-DVD, which has its own problems (obvious high pitched audio for one).

http://chidragon.thedessie.com/bdcomp/bicomp/1-53-43;07_1.png

To Dave Mack...

I fear that you are passionately knocking your head against a wall for no reason.

Some people do not want to learn.

In regard to my commentary, I am not being harsh.

Merely accurate.

The Blu-ray disc of Gangs of New York will be unviewable by anyone with the slightest understanding of film and its representation on high definition video.

If I were Disney I'd be doing everything in my power to get boxes back from distributors unopened to avoid embarrassment.

This is something too easy to fix to allow something this bad to get into the marketplace.


RAH

I hear you, Mr. Harris.

And agreed about Disney. I think they had a very good track record, (The POTC) misframing issue notwithstanding) but with kill bill and cold mountain waiting in the wings, let's hope this is an anomaly.



;)

Latest review...

"Buena Vista Home Entertainment's Blu-ray release, however, is a disc that every serious home video collector should seek out and avoid. Released in 2003, the standard-definition edition of Gangs was widely-and understandably-trashed. Edge enhancement, compression artifacts, you name it, they all made the movie an artificially sharp mess that had little to no picture detail and proved to be somewhat of an eyesore. When the Blu-ray release was announced a few months ago, I was elated. Disney has been consistently strong with the picture transfers for their BD releases, which led me to think that Gangs would finally get its due respect on home video.

Sadly, I was wrong. It appears that the Mouse House has recycled that atrocious transfer from five years ago for this release, and while it is a slight improvement over its SD counterpart, the added picture resolution from the 1080p/VC-1 encode seems to only accentuate the transfer's faults. The edge enhancement is so apparent at times that some of the characters look like they have force fields around them (maybe that is how Bill won the fight at the beginning of the film). Then there is the heavy use of digital noise reduction which renders the picture grain-free and dull while giving the actors' skin a waxy look. Adding salt to the BD wounds is a surprising amount of dirt, nicks and marks on the print given its age, and on more than one occasion, the picture displays a slight hiccup, as if someone hit the machine handling the transfer. I would expect this kind of work from a small, independent home video company, but Disney?

Is there anything nice to say about the video transfer? Well, the colors and black levels are stronger here than they were on the SD release, and compression artifacts are non-existent. And oh yeah, it's nice to have the film presented on one disc, uninterrupted. That’s… pretty much about it, I’m afraid.

Talk about being conflicted: I love Gangs of New York and have no problem recommending the film itself, but I can't recommend that you dish out $25-30 to own it. Buena Vista Home Entertainment, who has been very reliable with their BD transfers, must have let their interns do the work on this disc as there's just no other way to explain it outside of someone at Miramax/Disney having a serious grudge against Scorsese himself." - Shawn Fitzgerald, The Man Room

Wow. Yet another disc with apparently mediocre quality (that I won't be buying now) being defended by some (ie the same) members here and a shocker since Disney from my experience has been great with their BD releases.

All I can say is thank God the few of you defending this crap aren't in charge of every release.

I have no clue why anyone would buy into blu-ray and not want the best a movie can look and will rationalize away crap like DNR and EE. It truly boggles my mind. DNR and EE look like ****. I do not want to pay for this crap since I put up with it for 9 years with DVD. Sheesh

Humans...

Thanks, Robert. Saves me a trip to another forum!

BTW folks, Ralph's review is now up in that section.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1042635

Edge enhancement was visible around objects in bright scenes. I would not describe it as excessive but it contributed to the video’s artificially processed appearance.

Seriously? And this is the official AVS reviewer. Ugh...

You know, I think with this film, Patton and The Longest Day some negative posters are getting all bent out of shape and not seeing "the forest for the trees.".
We got it by now that you are either trolling or image quality is a book with seven seals to you. What are you doing on this forum if any turd is good enough for you and deserves praise and big sales?? You come across like an advocatus diaboli sent by the people who are responsible for these very substandard releases.

"Your TV will rival a movie screen for unsurpassed clarity and impact." -

Blu-ray advertising.

"Your TV will rival a movie screen for unsurpassed clarity and impact." -

Blu-ray advertising.

This is a bit cryptic.

Is the message that Blu-ray is being advertised falsely because Disney puts out one substandard release?

I'm not suggesting a class action suit against those who control Blu-ray.

Nor am I attempting to by cryptic.

But what seems quite obvious is that with a reputation for presumed quality riding on quite a bit of smoke and mirrors the past couple of weeks, they may need to put some means in place of making certain that the Blu-ray logo continues to have some meaning when it comes to quality.

With three poor recent releases -- Patton, Longest Day and now Gangs, any reputation for quality can no longer be assumed.

If a consumer picks up a Blu-ray disc, they should, within certain parameters, have a guarantee that the software encoded meets specific parameters for visual as well as aural quality.

RAH

This is a bit cryptic.

Is the message that Blu-ray is being advertised falsely because Disney puts out one substandard release?

It's quite clear to me. This is the latest in an emerging trend of discs that fail to deliver on the promise of the format.

If a consumer picks up a Blu-ray disc, they should, within certain parameters, have a guarantee that the software encoded meets specific parameters for visual as well as aural quality.

RAH

I completely agree!
The WHOLE selling point of Blu-ray is that includes a significant improvement piture and audio wise, compared to DVD.

If that is lost - all is lost.

Much of this and the overall concern toward quality is set out in a piece that has just gone up.

Here's a link:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris062408.html

I'm not suggesting a class action suit against those who control Blu-ray.

Nor am I attempting to by cryptic.

But what seems quite obvious is that with a reputation for presumed quality riding on quite a bit of smoke and mirrors the past couple of weeks, they may need to put some means in place of making certain that the Blu-ray logo continues to have some meaning when it comes to quality.

With three poor recent releases -- Patton, Longest Day and now Gangs, any reputation for quality can no longer be assumed.

If a consumer picks up a Blu-ray disc, they should, within certain parameters, have a guarantee that the software encoded meets specific parameters for visual as well as aural quality.

RAH

I haven't seen the BD of GONY or Longest Day, but I have watched the Patton BD, and I share your dissatisfaction with it.

However, these are not the first unsatisfactory BD releases; Warner has put out many that I was unhappy with, as have other studios.

There is a difference between calling the studios to task for putting out substandard releases (which is entirely appropriate) and making statements that sound like attacks on the whole BD effort, which strikes me as a disproportionate response.

I am not attacking Blu-ray.

I'm stating that they need to take a position and protect their very valuable turf.

I am not attacking Blu-ray.

I'm stating that they need to take a position and protect their very valuable turf.

I've read your piece at The Digital Bits.

I am in complete agreement that the removal of grain and the application of DNR and other distortive processing needs to be vigorously challenged and strongly criticized.

But it is also the case that some of these comments, particularly in brief posts on forums like this, can sound like attacks on the BD enterprise rather than efforts to keep the enterprise on the proper course.

Everyone that I know, and I'll place myself at the top of the list wants Blu-ray to succeed, grow and prosper.

Everyone that I know, and I'll place myself at the top of the list wants Blu-ray to succeed, grow and prosper.

I am delighted to hear that, and I think that is apparent from your long essay at The Digital Bits. I am certainly in that camp as well.

I haven't seen the BD of GONY or Longest Day, but I have watched the Patton BD, and I share your dissatisfaction with it.

However, these are not the first unsatisfactory BD releases; Warner has put out many that I was unhappy with, as have other studios.

There is a difference between calling the studios to task for putting out substandard releases (which is entirely appropriate) and making statements that sound like attacks on the whole BD effort, which strikes me as a disproportionate response.


Take it easy there patrick, Blu-ray already won the format war. This is not the kumbaya forum.

Much of this and the overall concern toward quality is set out in a piece that has just gone up.

Here's a link:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris062408.html

Excellent article on DNR, EE and Film Grain.

There is a difference between calling the studios to task for putting out substandard releases (which is entirely appropriate) and making statements that sound like attacks on the whole BD effort, which strikes me as a disproportionate response.I don't think the criticism of these releases is disproportionate at all. I think the point Robert Harris is making is that such poor quality is NOT good for the format. To have such quality within its grasp, only to THROW IT AWAY does not make a convincing case for upgrading from DVD.

Robert H (or anyone): What can the rest of us do convince the powers-that-be to stop this? High-profile people can (and now are) speaking out, but what about regular HT enthusiasts?

Should we not buy?

Should we send emails to someone? Whom?

I'm certainly willing to act, and I do think early intervention has the best chance of being effective (strangling the error in its cradle, if you will), but I don't know what to do.

Any direction appreciated. :)

In the case of Gangs of New York, a snail mail letter to Disney would probably be most effective.

In the case of Gangs of New York, a snail mail letter to Disney would probably be most effective.

Anyone have the name/address?

My views on this are mixed.

Patton and Longest Day really comes down to viewing environment. I'm not about to suggest that someone with a 42" LCD not purchase.

On Gangs, I believe that the public must vote with their wallets.

One of the huge problems, however, has been giving people honest reviews.

There are many folks out there, be they on TV, radio, print or bloggers, that are nice, and mean well, but are not doing anyone a service by giving a positive, glowing review to something that should be treated with disdain.

If the studios are going to react positively, there cannot be a wide disparity of writings, which is also extremely confusing to the consumer.

My vote on Gangs is not to purchase.

RAH

Much of this and the overall concern toward quality is set out in a piece that has just gone up.

Here's a link:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris062408.html

"Two of the more notorious that come to mind are the standard definition DVD releases of Cold Mountain and Gangs of New York. Both digital abominations from quality masters. "

I don't think a quality master exists for GONY. Even on HDTV broadcasts it looked bad. Back in the DVD days wasn't Miramax almost always put out some of the worst looking discs? What ever they did to the GONY master in 2003, it didn't change in the last 5 years. They'll have to create a new transfer from scratch.

EDIT: I mean digital master. I think you meant film master?

I am in complete agreement that the removal of grain and the application of DNR and other distortive processing needs to be vigorously challenged and strongly criticized.

But it is also the case that some of these comments, particularly in brief posts on forums like this, can sound like attacks on the BD enterprise rather than efforts to keep the enterprise on the proper course.
I also agree with the fundamental message that the perversions of classic films that have been foisted upon us in the past month are travesties and represent a serious issue that needs to be addressed.

I do not see these criticisms as an attack on the BD enterprise from former HD DVD enthusiasts (and if some are, pot meet the Universal kettle). However I do see a disturbing trend, either through thinly veiled innuendo or blatantly stated, that certain classes of (implied inferior and ignorant) consumers are to blame for these releases. Targets of these aspersions include an incredibly diverse set of PS3 gamers, small screen owners and video quality rankers.

Obviously the studios are going to cater their home video releases to the demographic that is going to buy the most discs, but in the case of titles like The Longest Day and Patton can you in all seriousness say that these groups are to blame? It seems to me that is highly intellectually dishonest to think the studios tweaked these releases to please, for example, a certain hard-core gamer crowd who are never going to purchase the disc regardless.

Any crusade needs to start with the studios first to find out where in the home video mastering process these things are occurring and why they are being done. If an answer comes back stating that they intentionally turned The Longest Day into a video game to sell more copies to Call of Duty fans then there is a case for community introspection, but until then we should not be throwing stones at each other.

I am not attacking Blu-ray.

I'm stating that they need to take a position and protect their very valuable turf.

Funny how "back then" such garbage transfers like Full Metal Jacket, Waterworld, the US release of Pan's Labrinth, etc were given a recommended pass... eh, forget it. I'm glad you finally upgraded your tv set, Robert. Any chance of revisiting those godawful titles?

I am still absolutely STUNNED at people calling Mr. Harris' motivation into questions. This is insane. For someone like Mr. Harris, who has worked with most major studios and huge big named filmmakers salvaging and saving some of the most important films in history to so publicly "sound off" on this issue is of major importance. He would not EVER do so were the situation not so dire. No way would he go on the line participating in such an open forum if he did not believe there was an immediate need for action.

This is a call to arms. Pure and simple. If this snow ball is not stopped now it will become a landslide and all great films will be consumed.

PATTON is one of my all time favorite films. I was beyond excited to finally throw away that absolutely unwatchable DVD in favor of glorious High Definition. Instead, the very pit of my stomach has been turned into a raging ulcer.

This must stop.

Much of this and the overall concern toward quality is set out in a piece that has just gone up.

Here's a link:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris062408.html
Great stuff RAH. I would hope that when a man of your experience speaks, the studios listen.

Unfortunately, the studio mandate at the moment seems to be 'update', rather than 'revise'.

I am still absolutely STUNNED at people calling Mr. Harris' motivation into questions. This is insane. For someone like Mr. Harris, who has worked with most major studios and huge big named filmmakers salvaging and saving some of the most important films in history to so publicly "sound off" on this issue is of major importance. He would not EVER do so were the situation not so dire. No way would he go on the line participating in such an open forum if he did not believe there was an immediate need for action.

This is a call to arms. Pure and simple. If this snow ball is not stopped now it will become a landslide and all great films will be consumed.

PATTON is one of my all time favorite films. I was beyond excited to finally throw away that absolutely unwatchable DVD in favor of glorious High Definition. Instead, the very pit of my stomach has been turned into a raging ulcer.

This must stop.

+1

I don't think this is really indicative of any new trends though. Disney to save a few bucks on a catalog title that probably will not sell like gangbusters re-used a very old HD master from 2003 for this Blu-ray which just doesn't hold up in 1080P. Without a new transfer from the original film elements I doubt this movie was ever going to look good on Blu-ray. I'd be more worried if we all thought this was a completely new HD master.

Well, I do think there is a trend starting since there's finally a push for more catalog titles. It's similar to what RAH called out in his DNR article regarding the start of DVD -- there was a mentality that transfers made for the previous generation (laserdisc) were "good enough" for catalog releases on the newer format, which resulted in some disappointing first releases, including a great number of Disney's films. Rocketeer, Tombstone, Tron, and many many others were produced from older sources, and they showed.

Now we're moving ahead again and finding that many of the HD sources created with mainly DVD in mind, and not updated in the last 4-5 years, are not holding up to an expected, established standard. The standard that proper modern film to video transfers of catalog films like Sand Pebbles or (IMHO) The Road Warrior are at. Universal's guilty of this with a lot of their catalog releases on HD-DVD, and Warner was in the bad habit early on with Full Metal Jacket and The Fugitive. To see Disney fall into this same lapse in standards is unsettling, and they should be holding themselves to a higher benchmark.

I just rec'd this non-response from BVHE:

Felix,

Thank you for your e-mail regarding GANGS OF NEW YORK. We appreciate your interest.

THE GANGS OF NEW YORK is tentatively scheduled for Blu-ray release July 1,2008.

If you have any other questions or concerns, please feel free to reply to this email. You may also contact us at 800 477-2811 (Canada 888 877-2843), Monday 9:30-7:30 and Tuesday through Friday 9:30-6:30 CST.

Sincerely,
I find it amusing that it's still "tentatively" scheduled for release July 1. I also responded that they should consider pushing back the release date to give this film the proper Blu-ray treatment.

I just rec'd this non-response from BVHE:


I find it amusing that it's still "tentatively" scheduled for release July 1. I also responded that they should consider pushing back the release date to give this film the proper Blu-ray treatment.

I agree and it would go a long way as far as good will goes. I certainly want to see the format flourish but not if transfers like this become the status quo.

I don't think this is really indicative of any new trends though. Disney to save a few bucks on a catalog title that probably will not sell like gangbusters re-used a very old HD master from 2003 for this Blu-ray which just doesn't hold up in 1080P. Without a new transfer from the original film elements I doubt this movie was ever going to look good on Blu-ray. I'd be more worried if we all thought this was a completely new HD master.

It's no excuse though. The original DVD was horrible, so it was obvious that they should have done a new transfer.

Also, Luigi when you watched the DVD SEVERAL years ago, what display were you using? How big? Has alot to do with it.

Dave,
As I recall I watched it on my old 108" screen upconverted to 1080i on my old Zenith player.

BTW - luigi the future of BD is secure. Do you need proof - Metropolis, Final Countdown, and Faces of Death(who saw that one coming?) are arriving. Which means BD is official. EE and DNR are relics from the pre-HD days like legacy audio and MPEG2. They all need to be retired.
Your confidence in Blu-ray's successful future is most re-assuring...:)

Ummm. Louigi. You have to be kidding. Take a LITTLE time and read what you're quoting. That is NOT Mr. Harris' review from HTF, that is Mr. Deering's of HomeTheaterMag. Yet ANOTHER bad review by a well respected critic who has access to about the best home display technology available.


sheesh. If we're gonna debate at least be on the same page.


;)

Opppps....my bad. Apologies to all concerned.:o

To Dave Mack...

I fear that you are passionately knocking your head against a wall for no reason.

Some people do not want to learn.

In regard to my commentary, I am not being harsh.

Merely accurate.

The Blu-ray disc of Gangs of New York will be unviewable by anyone with the slightest understanding of film and its representation on high definition video.

If I were Disney I'd be doing everything in my power to get boxes back from distributors unopened to avoid embarrassment.

This is something too easy to fix to allow something this bad to get into the marketplace.


RAH
Mr Harris,
With all due respect I think you were harsh and certainly guilty of exaggeration with your statement, "The Blu-ray disc of Gangs of New York will be unviewable by anyone with the slightest understanding of film and its representation on high definition video" in light of HTF reviewer Mr Hough who concluded in his review that, "many may actually enjoy this 'video' look for the movie." It seems to me that fans of this film are going to have to decide for themselves if it's a keeper.:)

Dave,
As I recall I watched it on my old 108" screen upconverted to 1080i on my old Zenith player.

well that settles that. I used to have that player. Upconverted very well.
But there still IS a ton of EE on that disc. Pop it in again and watch the opening battle.

Xylon, do you have the old "Gangs" dvd...?
if so, could you post some screenshots of DDL silhouetted against the sky in the opening battle to show the copious EE..?

Mr Harris,
With all due respect I think you were harsh and certainly guilty of exaggeration with your statement, "The Blu-ray disc of Gangs of New York will be unviewable by anyone with the slightest understanding of film and its representation on high definition video" in light of HTF reviewer Mr Hough who concluded in his review that, "many may actually enjoy this 'video' look for the movie." It seems to me that fans of this film are going to have to decide for themselves if it's a keeper.:)

I don't think he was harsh or exaggerating at all. While some may not take offense to GoNY on BD, it is certainly a shining example of how a great film SHOULD NOT LOOK on a format like this. Robert's words were dead on as far as I'm concerned.

Xylon, do you have the old "Gangs" dvd...?
if so, could you post some screenshots of DDL silhouetted against the sky in the opening battle to show the copious EE..?


Lots of comparison threads this weekend and the following week ;)

Mr Harris,
With all due respect I think you were harsh and certainly guilty of exaggeration with your statement, "The Blu-ray disc of Gangs of New York will be unviewable by anyone with the slightest understanding of film and its representation on high definition video" in light of HTF reviewer Mr Hough who concluded in his review that, "many may actually enjoy this 'video' look for the movie." It seems to me that fans of this film are going to have to decide for themselves if it's a keeper.:)


I have read through these posts in this thread over and over. Although I side more with others than you and agree DNR is a major issue and looks horrible on many BD releases as of late, the term unviewable ( which by the way isn't technically even a word) means it cannot even be watched. :eek:


I want to know either from Robert Harris himself or someone who feels they can speak for him exactly what that means. I want to see this on BD, but a clarification of what seems to be true based on his expertise would be helpful.

I tried the link and it seems the site is down. I will keep trying to get a better understanding. :)

Lots of comparison threads this weekend and the following week ;)

Cool, dude!

:) This should be great!

To Hughmc...

The word "unviewable" as I've used it as opposed to viewable would fit nicely with the words can and may.

In this case one can view it, but many would suggest that you not.

RAH

What has been happening probably in a high percentage of purchases is that one likes a film so they go ahead and blind buy the BD, regardless of quality. Don't think this is really going to change percentagewise.

Using the wallet to voice one's attitude toward a title flat out isn't going to work.

Something like the Patton situation needs to be handled in a much much different way. Still really interested to know WHY it was released this way and I'm not looking for assumptions but answers from insiders! :)

My recommendation? Don't blind buy just because you like a film. While content and story line are the main focuses which is understandable, you are left wide open for issues with the quality of the BD!

Mr Harris,
With all due respect I think you were harsh and certainly guilty of exaggeration with your statement, "The Blu-ray disc of Gangs of New York will be unviewable by anyone with the slightest understanding of film and its representation on high definition video" in light of HTF reviewer Mr Hough who concluded in his review that, "many may actually enjoy this 'video' look for the movie." It seems to me that fans of this film are going to have to decide for themselves if it's a keeper.:)No, Mr Harris is right on.

Mr Hough's comment reveals a complete lack of understanding about what video looks like! Video does not have any inherent EE itself. If you look at the output of a high quality video camera like the Canon XL-H1 or the Sony PMW-EX1, you won't see any EE.

EE, which is a close cousin to DNR, comes from a heavy handed (and probably visually impaired) :rolleyes: human being, viewing the result on a 19" monitor, who is intent on destroying the original look of the source image in a misguided attempt to correct what seems to them to be a perceived flaw in a video image. Or, it could be they are trying to correct for the smeary undetailed image left after their previously heavy handed application of DNR. :(

It doesn't matter if the original source was film or video.

The end result is the same: Unviewable, Unwatchable, Painful. At least for the ardent videophiles that frequent this forum who are attempting to make use of the potential quality of HD media in a true HT setting.

Vern

I've just read the last 3-4 pages of this thread. I must admit to being disconcerted by the defensiveness put up by some folks over this release. If we are all here to have the finest home theater experiences, then being warned of poor efforts is most welcome.

I had the original US DVD, and upgraded to the UK one. Yes, it was a bit better, but still overprocessed crap that was far from "good enough." I really did think that a new master would be used for the blu debut, and we could forget about the old DVD abomination, so I am shocked by what I hear.

It seems the only real way to make a point is to vote with your wallet. GONY joins Robocop and others as BD titles I would have bought in a heartbeat if they had received a respectful treatment. I can't buy them because I know I will not be able to watch them without reflecting on how much better they should be. So I stick with DVD for now. And no, I don't feel I'm "missing out."

You have a camp of enthusiasts who want their vision of a true and accurate representation of their favorite films realized vs hardware and software manufacturers who want to sell product.

Imaging the poor ignorant consumer that plunked down his hard earned cash for a Blu-ray player and hooked it up to his shiny new HDTV with the manufacturer supplied composite audio and video cables. The quality of the disc or care taken with the transfer really won't matter.

Why provide these inappropriate cables with Blu-ray? Cause they are the cheapest.

Software producers make product, not art. They charge premium prices for their wares, so they strive to make them look like their competition - HDTV. Why pay for a grainy movie when you can watch CSI Miami for free - and it looks a lot better.

Here's DVDtown's thoughts on the PQ.

"Blu-ray really captures the subtle details to be found in a film where the colors lean toward a specific palette. There are lots of golds and browns and dark tones and shadows, and in 1080p the colors seem rich, not dingy, while the level of detail is excellent. The film is presented in 2.35:1 aspect ratio, and the transfer (AVC/MPEG-4 codec) is excellent, with no apparent artifacts. "

They gave it a 9 out of 10. Every now and then they totally blow a review.

Here's DVDtown's thoughts on the PQ.

"Blu-ray really captures the subtle details to be found in a film where the colors lean toward a specific palette. There are lots of golds and browns and dark tones and shadows, and in 1080p the colors seem rich, not dingy, while the level of detail is excellent. The film is presented in 2.35:1 aspect ratio, and the transfer (AVC/MPEG-4 codec) is excellent, with no apparent artifacts. "

They gave it a 9 out of 10. Every now and then they totally blow a review.Now I know not to pay attention to what that site says about PQ.

Now I know not to pay attention to what that site says about PQ.

Like Robert Harris said over on blu-ray.com, this release is really going to be a litmus test for HD 'reviewers'. So far, I'm down to about two reviewers I trust, Mr. Harris himself and Kris Deering.

Like Robert Harris said over on blu-ray.com, this release is really going to be a litmus test for HD 'reviewers'. So far, I'm down to about two reviewers I trust, Mr. Harris himself and Kris Deering.

Just don't trust Mr. Harris' video game reviews because he seems to have a lot of hate towards them. It was very distracting reading his opinion with all that hate towards a different medium. ;)

I am rather sad that I won't be able to get a proper version of Gangs now (hopefully sometime in the future).

EE, which is a close cousin to DNR, comes from a heavy handed (and probably visually impaired) :rolleyes: human being, viewing the result on a 19" monitor, who is intent on destroying the original look of the source image in a misguided attempt to correct what seems to them to be a perceived flaw in a video image. Or, it could be they are trying to correct for the smeary undetailed image left after their previously heavy handed application of DNR. :(



Vern

The line gets clouded slightly in my opinion because sometimes it's the equipment they use which adds unwanted edge enhancement and not the human controlling it. I believe this was true of a number of Sony releases prior to them changing their equipment in 2007.

I actually recommend watching The Professionals - Excellent film like presentation with high levels of detail....Just some mild edge enhancement which i don't think was added intentionally but is a byproduct of the equipment used - Indeed it may even have been part of the original optical printing process and not edge enhancement. Great movie too.

As for Gangs of New York.....I have only ever saw it on television so can't comment directly on how it looks but i can comment on HD reviews across the internet and in general i find them to be a mixed bag.....I believe many reviews come from people watching on their brand new 40 or 50 inch uncalibrated HD televisions and some may even have their 120hz features switched on....It's difficult to fully appreciate an image on sets that size which have not even been calibrated and if it's not a great transfer to Blu Ray then faults will be seen but it's only when you watch on a large projection screen that you can sometimes appreciate just how bad/good the film transfer looks ( and whether it actually looks like film or has the video look )

Just as well i looked back at what i typed because apparently a c was left off of changing and my statement would have looked like this ....I believe this was true of a number of Sony releases prior to them hanging their equipment in 2007...Now that made me smile a little...I put the c back now.

It's been two years since Blu Ray launched and i believe the competition with HD-DVD actually did all of us a favor because it made both sides work harder at releasing quality content but now that war is over i do wonder whether it's going to be a case of quantity over quality for the next few years before settling back into a quality aspect again.

I believe studio's recycling their old DVD transfers is the reason why some releases are not living up to their potential and therefore it's about money and quantity...Getting the releases onto the shelves at the cheapest price possible to the studio.....They are in a war with DVD to become the dominant format and they need quick cheap releases and they probably think if it's just a little bit better than DVD then it's a sale.....They aren't getting a sale from me....They may well get a sale from you. ( thats your choice everyone )

It seems the only real way to make a point is to vote with your wallet. GONY joins Robocop and others as BD titles I would have bought in a heartbeat if they had received a respectful treatment. I can't buy them because I know I will not be able to watch them without reflecting on how much better they should be. So I stick with DVD for now. And no, I don't feel I'm "missing out."
It's post like this that really make me sad. Only YOU can decide if your "missing out." If you were going to buy it...at least rent it first...than decide if it's worth purchasing. All this DNR this and GRAIN that should be secondary to your enjoyment of this movie.

You have a camp of enthusiasts who want their vision of a true and accurate representation of their favorite films realized vs hardware and software manufacturers who want to sell product.

Imaging the poor ignorant consumer that plunked down his hard earned cash for a Blu-ray player and hooked it up to his shiny new HDTV with the manufacturer supplied composite audio and video cables. The quality of the disc or care taken with the transfer really won't matter.

Why provide these inappropriate cables with Blu-ray? Cause they are the cheapest.

Software producers make product, not art. They charge premium prices for their wares, so they strive to make them look like their competition - HDTV. Why pay for a grainy movie when you can watch CSI Miami for free - and it looks a lot better.
aydu,
You have BOTH feet on the ground....that's a compliment.:D

It's post like this that really make me sad. Only YOU can decide if your "missing out." If you were going to buy it...at least rent it first...than decide if it's worth purchasing. All this DNR this and GRAIN that should be secondary to your enjoyment of this movie.

You've made your point. It's time to move on.

I think those that want to debate in every thread about the lack of merits in a transfer isn't a problem for them....fine. But, I too agree it's time to move on.

Here are a few quotes from the Owner of AVS on why threads like this are important:

Its a distraction. Hard to fall into a movie when your concentration is disrupted with the need to adjust your display to make up for the shortcoming of the transfer.
We have these discussion because people here care about PQ. If all we cared about was watching the movie for just the story we would all be happy downloading the movie to our iphone.

Thats a realistic summery.

For those who say they are happy with this transfer you should promote those who care about PQ and point out weak transfers. Some day you will benefit from their efforts. In the meantime enjoy your movies but I see no need to interfere with progress. If no one pressed for better PQ the studios would still be sitting on DVD.
By all means keep the threads coming pointing out weak transfers. After all HD is all about PQ. I hope we see the use of EE and NR come to an end, after all DVD quality plopped on HD media does not make it HD.

Hi Steeb

I make no excuses for this. Most review sites seam to concentrate on the story line with very little attention or accuracy to PQ. I wish we had a reviewer with an 8 foot wide or larger screen giving reliable and accurate PQ descriptions.
For those with smaller displays this would not matter as most DVDs look like HD on a Plasma but for those with larger screens where many of these titles weakness show up such a person would be welcomed. Regardless its to bad this is not one for the big screen. Another j6p transfer.

It's been two years since Blu Ray launched and i believe the competition with HD-DVD actually did all of us a favor because it made both sides work harder at releasing quality content but now that war is over i do wonder whether it's going to be a case of quantity over quality for the next few years before settling back into a quality aspect again.


"Competition" between the two formats never made "both sides work harder at releasing quality content". There were subpar transfers used on both sides of the fence throughout HD-DVDs lifespan. Nothing has changed since it's demise. There is still plenty of stunning stuff being released on Blu-Ray and there are also still some lazy releases coming out.

Heck, if anything, there's an argument out there against competition making both sides work harder since the Universal Blu-Ray versions of their HD-DVD releases are going to have lossless sound. Upcoming Paramount releases will have supplements that were missing from the HD-DVDs... If there's any argument that can be made, I'd think it would be that there was a bit of laziness out there until a winner emerged... at least, in some cases. But, I can't see how anyone can attribute a bad transfer to lack of another competing format... especially when the biggest obstacle to HDM acceptance is DVD. Consumers need to see WHY they should upgrade to Blu-Ray. If Gangs of New York looks as bad as it's being reported, it isn't going to help promote the format...

So now a piece of dog sh*t in focus...?


:)
Of course, the film is the Persian rug underneath all that poop!

"Competition" between the two formats never made "both sides work harder at releasing quality content". There were subpar transfers used on both sides of the fence throughout HD-DVDs lifespan. Nothing has changed since it's demise. There is still plenty of stunning stuff being released on Blu-Ray and there are also still some lazy releases coming out.



You are not getting what i was saying in my post.....Nothing unusual in that though as it happens from time to time.

Must be the way i word things.

Some people, a very few in this forum, are making it their mission to keep spewing lunacy on this issue and frankly, it's becoming tiresome. It's as though they enjoy being on the wrong side of the issue, stirring up the pot.

But then I thought about how it sucks tobe wrong and that most humans don't like it when they believe something is one way, only to find that nobody else agrees. There isa a defense mechanism that is set off in a human being's mind or maybe their ego.

Perhaps that can explain this nonsense. :mad: God could come down from the sky and tell them they were wrong and their reaction would be to state there is no God. That is how insane I find this situation.

This may stir up a hornets nest but so be it. For the record and umpteenth time, I agree with most of you with regards to the DNR issue.

The issue I have or am witnessing from many posters is a dismissive tone. Xylon and others opened the can of worms to make thier points about DNR. This is welcomed and what we want. We want to know. This is a science of AV discussion forum. IMO those who can live with the DNR have a right to continue to discuss their reasons being ok with it. What I am now witnessing is even some mods saying move on, you made your point, as in their tone seems dismissive as well. I understand their logic, but do not entirely agree with it. Some of the frustrations of some have been to personally attack those who are ok with DNR as not being avid move watchers, blind, stupid or they don't know enough to care about quality. I also do not agree with this stance and attitude.

If the OP's, mods and supporters of better PQ and less DNR simply have the discussion, then that can be done in a few short pages of all members who might post and move on, threads closed. After their point is made, how is their point anymore valid without recourse from those who feel different. As I see it members and mods being dismissive and saying move on is segregating and controlling AVS into a partisan forum just because some disagree. IMO this is not ok and seems this forum should not be about what is taking place.

We were partisan when it came to widescreen and anamorphic. And rightly so. We will be on this issue as well. Facts are facts and what is happening is wrong. That some don't care is making many of us angry since it makes it harder for us to get this issue taken care of. It took years and years of fighting to win the widescreen war and God help us if we have to fight another fight like that again.

We were partisan when it came to widescreen and anamorphic. And rightly so. We will be on this issue as well. Facts are facts and what is happening is wrong. That some don't care is making many of us angry since it makes it harder for us to get this issue taken care of. It took years and years of fighting to win the widescreen war and God help us if we have to fight another fight like that again.

God will have to help you because you will never -- ever -- have the amount of support for this DNR "fight" as you did for widescreen and anamorphic...mainly because of the tone of your argument as well as the "facts" which you seem to think are entirely in your favor -- and they aren't. The reality is that the majority of the world is going to think PATTON on BD looks just fine. Robert Harris and his followers won't, but this isn't like cropping widescreen movies to 4:3 and then showing people what they're missing. This is entirely a matter of personal preference, it's not "black and white" and as cut and dried as you think it is, it's just not and it never will be.

Harris himself just said he'd never say he wouldn't recommend GANGS OF NEW YORK to someone who owns a 42' LCD. If that's the case then your "fight" is only going to primarily apply to people with expensive rigs and gigantic screens and not the poor "rest of us" who can only afford paltry 40' sets. :rolleyes:

to DM206RI...

Please take care not to misquote.

I do not recall saying that I "would never say [he] wouldn't recommend Gangs of New York to someone who owns a 42' (sic) LCD."

There is a huge chasm of quality between Fox's Longest Day & Patton and Disney's Gangs.

Longest Day and Patton should be quite acceptable on moderately sized screens.

RAH

It's post like this that really make me sad. Only YOU can decide if your "missing out." If you were going to buy it...at least rent it first...than decide if it's worth purchasing. All this DNR this and GRAIN that should be secondary to your enjoyment of this movie.

Don't be sad - I certainly am not! I'm making a choice to not buy something that I know will not satisfy me.

You seem to keep saying that technical issues shouldn't affect your enjoyment of a movie. But this is the AVS Forum! We are here because we care about the presentation of the films, and I am coming around to the argument that DNR is the next big battle. If we keep quiet and settle for less, we might as well call it a day.

Like Robert Harris said over on blu-ray.com, this release is really going to be a litmus test for HD 'reviewers'. So far, I'm down to about two reviewers I trust, Mr. Harris himself and Kris Deering.

I largely agree, but if you want to know the reviewer that I absolutely trust even more than the above two reviewers, and virtually never disagree with, I will tell you who it is:

me.

;)

If the OP's, mods and supporters of better PQ and less DNR simply have the discussion, then that can be done in a few short pages of all members who might post and move on, threads closed. After their point is made, how is their point anymore valid without recourse from those who feel different. As I see it members and mods being dismissive and saying move on is segregating and controlling AVS into a partisan forum just because some disagree. IMO this is not ok and seems this forum should not be about what is taking place.

And again.....

At this juncture it's important to remember that AVS is a home theater enthusiasts web site. This particular forum is for those interested in the highest level of accuracy in film reproduction possible, within their budget of course. Those who do not share this interest should expect to find disagreement with their opinions, and may want to reconsider their participation here.

I largely agree, but if you want to know the reviewer that I absolutely trust even more than the above two reviewers, and virtually never disagree with, I will tell you who it is:

me.

;)

Rob, I understand the larger point you're making, but that would require either buying or renting every disc I'm interested in, which isn't always feasible.

Rob, I understand the larger point you're making, but that would require either buying or renting every disc I'm interested in, which isn't always feasible.

I understand Paul, and under those circumstances the two that you mentioned would be where I would start as well.

http://dvd.themanroom.com/news/Gangs_of_New_York_Blu-ray_Review/2963

PQ: 4.5/10
SQ: 7.5/10

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/ht-software-high-definition/273568-htf-blu-ray-review-gangs-new-york.html

PQ: 3/5
SQ: 4/5

http://www.dvdtown.com/reviews/gangs-of-new-york/6044/2

PQ: 9/10
SQ: 10/10

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews38/gangs_of_new_york_blu-ray.htm

PQ: 7/9
SQ: 7/8

http://www.dvdreview.com/reviews/pages/2856.shtml

PQ: Wonderfully rich & mesmerizing

http://www.dvdmoviecentral.com/ReviewsText/gangs_of_new_york_bd.htm

PQ: 4/5
SQ: 4/5

If it's as bad as the screenshots I've seen then it doesn't deserve anything beyond a 2, and that's being generous. DVDTown must be still stuck in SDTown. Utterly worthless review with a short paragraph on the PQ. The reviewer thinks he's Ebert. :D

I enjoy watching films, but only collect about 5% of what I watch.

When I collect it is primarily because of content (rewatchability of the film); picture and audio quality; and price.

I think most would admit that even the worst Blu-ray releases represent the best quality that is available for that particular film - at the retail level. Could it have been better, more accurate, more care taken with the transfer - of course!

Fortunately, I'm able to rent my potential purchases before plunking down cash to own. This lets me evaluate for myself whether the product is worth the purchase.

For those who typically do "blind buys" I'd guess you'll always have a mix of pleasant surprises, and disappointments.

Those running 100+ inch projector screens are testing the limits of any format. They'll likely be more disappointed, more often, than most. They also get the biggest reward by having the most awe inspiring moments from their movie viewing experiences.

If ownership of movie content has taught us anything over time (VHS/DVD/HD DVD & Blu-ray) it is that there will always be choices made in the production of the product that detract from what it could or should be.

I've found reviewers to be a mixed bag. Some transfers that they have praised seem to look awful to me. Others were a pleasant surprise.

In the end, use your judgement; test drive before you buy; and only buy the films that meet your personal standards.

Those running 100+ inch projector screens are testing the limits of any format. They'll likely be more disappointed, more often, than most. They also get the biggest reward by having the most awe inspiring moments from their movie viewing experiences.


In the end, use your judgement; test drive before you buy; and only buy the films that meet your personal standards.



This format is capable of delivering film like quality in our homes no matter what size the screen is and as for renting first...Not an option for some and for me i can hardly rent an American release first as i live in the UK.

The real question is why do some AVS members accept average when they can accept greatness....Never ceases to amaze me.

Those running 100+ inch projector screens are testing the limits of any format.No we're not.

In the end, it's the viewing distance to screen size ratio that becomes the final parameter that determines what we see and can perceive on the HT screen. As long as we sit at a distance that allows our eyes to fully resolve 1080 x 1920 pixels we have optimized our viewing experience to HD media.

Any time HD has issues when viewed at the optimum distance, it's either because somebody screwed up in the transfer process (anywhere from the scan of the original source element to applying a video correction of some sort, to the encoding for the final delivery media) OR the original element has problems. These problems can be either the lack of an acceptable source element no more than 2 generations away from the negative or damage to the best (or only, in some cases) available source elements.

In some cases these element problems can be corrected in the video realm. (See the DVD's for "North By Northwest" and "Pollyanna" for some highly original and successful thinking.)

Note that the above doesn't begin to cover the many ways that the HT owner or the equipment being used in the HT can impair the final viewing experience.... An example of this is using component video connections in a large screen video environment, rather than DVI or HDMI.

Vern

Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
Like Robert Harris said over on blu-ray.com, this release is really going to be a litmus test for HD 'reviewers'. So far, I'm down to about two reviewers I trust, Mr. Harris himself and Kris Deering.

I largely agree, but if you want to know the reviewer that I absolutely trust even more than the above two reviewers, and virtually never disagree with, I will tell you who it is:

me.

;)

I tend to agree with me more than those two hacks too:p

Ultimately the end experience is always a personal one. Reviewers should be looked at as nothing more than a entry guideline, and even then only if you tend to share the same opinions. And even then there are rarely guarantees. For A/V quality I look at what the reviewer is using for his HT system, since that impacts the quality of the presentation directly. I also appreciate pictures of the setup because I've seen incredible equipment lists that only resulted in a setup and room that is an utter disaster.

With Blu-ray software at the price it is now, discretionary spending is understandable and view points on the A/V quality are very helpful before plunking down coin.

Kris, I miss the days when you and Chad were reviewing over at the spot. It's much harder to find reliable reviews these days.

Don't be sad - I certainly am not! I'm making a choice to not buy something that I know will not satisfy me.

You don't know that!!! That's like deciding not to see the new X-File movie at the cinema because it got bad reviews by the press. All I'm saying is that we are all "reviewers" in a sense. We decide what movies to see and buy based on our own criteria and interests. If "Gangs" is one of your favorite flicks....check it out.

You seem to keep saying that technical issues shouldn't affect your enjoyment of a movie. But this is the AVS Forum! We are here because we care about the presentation of the films, and I am coming around to the argument that DNR is the next big battle. If we keep quiet and settle for less, we might as well call it a day.
Funny you should say that as just before I got on-line I was musing about my wife's viewing habits and her amazing flexibility in how she chooses to watch a movie. We have 108," 56," and numerous smaller displays throughout the house. She watches new titles mostly on the 13" display in our exercise room while she's on the treadmill! The presentation of films obviously means very little to her. This is not to say that she doesn't enjoy movies...she does!!! It's just not in the same way that you or I enjoy them. No...we have to have our 108" displays with 1080P and lossless audio as standard equipment before we even slip that disc in. Sometimes I question the need for all this hi-tech equipment and why I spend thousands on upgrades and if it's really necessary as I watch my wife walking on that treadmill, listening to the audio on headphones and totally immersed in the movie.
Anyway...yes. This is the AVS forums and we do care about the presentation of films but, at the same time, lets not forget to lay back and enjoy them as well.:)

This is the AVS forums and we do care about the presentation of films but, at the same time, lets not forget to lay back and enjoy them as well.

I see what part of the problem is louigi, you don't understand that this portion of the AVSforums is strictly about the technical details. If you wish to discuss the enjoyment or dislike of movies, then visit the proper section of the AVSforums here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=44). Discussion of the actual movies is actually off topic here, but is generally tolerated unless you say something negative about one and people consider it "thread crapping". Truthfully no one in this specific forum cares if anyone else likes or dislikes a specific movie since it's totally irrelevant.

Funny you should say that as just before I got on-line I was musing about my wife's viewing habits and her amazing flexibility in how she chooses to watch a movie. We have 108," 56," and numerous smaller displays throughout the house. She watches new titles mostly on the 13" display in our exercise room while she's on the treadmill! The presentation of films obviously means very little to her. This is not to say that she doesn't enjoy movies...she does!!! It's just not in the same way that you or I enjoy them. No...we have to have our 108" displays with 1080P and lossless audio as standard equipment before we even slip that disc in. Sometimes I question the need for all this hi-tech equipment and why I spend thousands on upgrades and if it's really necessary as I watch my wife walking on that treadmill, listening to the audio on headphones and totally immersed in the movie.
Anyway...yes. This is the AVS forums and we do care about the presentation of films but, at the same time, lets not forget to lay back and enjoy them as well.:)


Too true. My wife is the same way. She can watch a movie on an old junky 19" tube with the DVD using composite cables without issue. I cringe at the mere thought of watching a movie on such a setup. I love watching movies, but it seems that I've become a PQ and AQ snob... I don't see myself changing anytime soon either. I love watching movies in glorious HD with lossless audio. I can only dream of having a real "home theater" setup.

Kris, I miss the days when you and Chad were reviewing over at the spot. It's much harder to find reliable reviews these days.

Well you can still find my HD reviews updated weekly over at Home Theater's website. And there is a huge database of HD reviews from me over at Secrets! Thanks for the comment though!!:D

Funny you should say that as just before I got on-line I was musing about my wife's viewing habits and her amazing flexibility in how she chooses to watch a movie. We have 108," 56," and numerous smaller displays throughout the house. She watches new titles mostly on the 13" display in our exercise room while she's on the treadmill! The presentation of films obviously means very little to her. This is not to say that she doesn't enjoy movies...she does!!! It's just not in the same way that you or I enjoy them. No...we have to have our 108" displays with 1080P and lossless audio as standard equipment before we even slip that disc in. Sometimes I question the need for all this hi-tech equipment and why I spend thousands on upgrades and if it's really necessary as I watch my wife walking on that treadmill, listening to the audio on headphones and totally immersed in the movie.


ha ha, my wife too! :)

ha ha, my wife too! :)

My wife, too. Seems like a pattern is emerging.

(For all the excessive money I spend on home theater gear, I make up by not buying excessive amounts of footwear. My wife, on the other hand, never has a desire to upgrade or change any electronic item in the house, but thinks nothing of buying several pairs of shoes a week.)

If it's as bad as the screenshots I've seen then it doesn't deserve anything beyond a 2, and that's being generous. DVDTown must be still stuck in SDTown. Utterly worthless review with a short paragraph on the PQ. The reviewer thinks he's Ebert. :D

Where are the screenshots of this film? I have been searching.

http://www.image-load.eu/out.php/i9374_gangs2.png

http://www.image-load.eu/out.php/i9375_gangs3.png

Kram, grab one of Daniel Day lewis in the snow in the beginning when he's making his speech before the fight. He is silhouetted against the sky and on the DVD it looked horrid.

Recieved my copy today, excited:rolleyes:

Have anyone imported the french Blu-Ray release? Is it region-free? and how does it compare to the crappy Region A disc?

Thanks, Kram. Those shots are just - blech.

The real question is why do some AVS members accept average when they can accept greatness....Never ceases to amaze me.

With a single format, region coding, and a single studio release point, I'm not sure where you get the great version.

Be nice if there were options like "good" "better" and "best", but consumers are stuck with either buying/renting/watching or not.

http://dvdauthority.com/reviews.asp?reviewid=5663

Another one failed the test. 4/5 for PQ.
Man, those screens have no detail what so ever.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/33708/gangs-of-new-york/
this one passed the test. 2.5/5 for PQ.

Good Lord. They praise the old SD-DVD! ******* pathetic. I just emailed them my disgust.

Woah. Previous Sd-dvd looked outstanding? I think some of these people are just in it for the free discs and don't even watch what they get sent...

Woah. Previous Sd-dvd looked outstanding? I think some of these people are just in it for the free discs and don't even watch what they get sent...

The cynical side of me wonders this as well. In fact, I wanted to bring this up earlier, but I forgot to. I've often wondered how much fear of 'rocking the boat', 'biting the hand that feeds you', or whatever plays into the tendency by some reviewers to 'go easy' on a disc?

While I am sure that there is a bit of truth in that, I fear the even worse case scenario is more true. And that is that a lot of these reviewers either don't have the equipment necessary to see issues or are simply either don't know what to look for or don't have an appropriate form of reference (film background). After all, someone once said don't attribute to malice what can easily be attributed to ignorance, or something to that affect.

Again, here is a golden opportunity for everyone that takes issue with what has been done to GoNY to 'weed out' the poor reviewers and sites. The less traffic they receive will either force them to become better reviewers or decrease their influence and, consequently, the 'dumbing down' effect they are having whether that effect is intentional or not.

Woah. Previous Sd-dvd looked outstanding? I think some of these people are just in it for the free discs and don't even watch what they get sent...

I remember a site wanting a new reviewer four years ago and i sent in some reviews and got the job....So my first review was considered great and printed by the site and it's still on the review site to this day but my second review was rejected so i changed it slightly and it was still rejected.....My second review was a negative one about the film itself and i hadn't altered my writing process so couldn't understand why the site owner didn't like it.....I was happy enough with my review so just told the owner i was quitting and thanks for the chance....I believe the film i was negative about was a free review sample to keep. ( you see where i am going with this )

The interesting thing is that around four weeks after they rejected my negative view of this film they put up a very positive review...Complete opposite of the one i wrote.

I would rather give an honest opinion than compromise but some sites do seem to be corruptable and less than honest.

I notice on IMDB there are a few different distributors listed...Perhaps the German version when/if it comes might be better. ( unless it's already out and is the same )

P.S. If anyone wants to know the site and the review then send me a PM....Not sure if mentioning a site in such a negative way is allowed thus keeping it off the front page.

The guy at that website responded to me almost immediatley and was very defensive. I'm betting free copies = better provide a great review. Numerous websites are likely plagued with the problem.

But then again, many of these reviewers are looking at High Def on small sets and have no clue film is supposed to look like.

The guy at that website responded to me almost immediatley and was very defensive.

Well, how did you approach him? :D

Emailing such a reviewer is likely to be a fruitless endeavor, regardless of the motivations behind his reviews.

Like I said in my previous post they think it's on BD and we are all going to jump up and get excited and buy it.They were right, I did, but now there making us all more wiser when it comes to purchasing these films because we are not going to be buying older films without reading peoples opinion on it first or renting them.Im holding out on Lost boys until some of you who will rent it gives us your reviews.Nothing can beat these forums when it comes to reading honest reviews by it's members.

Like I said in my previous post they think it's on BD and we are all going to jump up and get excited and buy it.They were right, I did, but now there making us all more wiser when it comes to purchasing these films because we are not going to be buying older films without reading peoples opinion on it first or renting them.Im holding out on Lost boys until some of you who will rent it gives us your reviews.Nothing can beat these forums when it comes to reading honest reviews by it's members.

Basically what I wrote a few hours ago in the Patton thread. In the near term, as long as there is at least a few more folks not rushing in and blind buying then something has been learned and accomplished.

Long term, we need to wait to see what the quality of these older movies will be.

The guy at that website responded to me almost immediatley and was very defensive. I'm betting free copies = better provide a great review. Numerous websites are likely plagued with the problem.

I've worked at several review sites over the years, and have never been pressured by anyone to write a positive review as quid pro quo for free screeners. No worthwhile editor would ever allow that to happen.

But then again, many of these reviewers are looking at High Def on small sets and have no clue film is supposed to look like.

This is the real crux of the problem. Many of the High Definition reviewers out there simply aren't qualified to write on the topic.

Anyway, I watched Gangs of New York last night and it's a horrendously bad transfer, DNR'ed and Edge Enhanced to death. :(

Hi Josh,

Thought it would be. I'm sure they just used that damned hideous 2003 transfer. Thanks Disney. I wonder what Marty would think...

Well, how did you approach him? :D
Who, me? Come on now. You know I'm as nice as a kitten.

A kitten suffering from rabies! :D

Josh, you are probably right, but I know of a few guys who have been pressured. One doesn't write reviews anymore and the other two were 'fired.'

And again.....

At this juncture it's important to remember that AVS is a home theater enthusiasts web site. This particular forum is for those interested in the highest level of accuracy in film reproduction possible, within their budget of course. Those who do not share this interest should expect to find disagreement with their opinions, and may want to reconsider their participation here.

Ken I respect yours and other's positions and agree to a point. There is nothing to reconsider. I want the same thing. The issue a few of us have is this is not an all or nothing proposition as some with over exaggerated hyperbole make it seem to be.

Thanks for the grabs. I concur with the complainers on this one. That is a poor excuse for an HD transfer. That said, the DVD version is SOOO bad that this is still mountains above it in terms of quality. I love the film, but I can't even get through 5 minutes of the DVD without blocking and mosquitoes ruining the whole experience for me.

New thread to debate here...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14175760#post14175760

All the new release threads are out of control with the EXACT same arguments in each. For those who wish to continue the debate.

Since I expect it will be several years before Disney revists this release;, I"m actually thinking about buying the French version. Hopefully someone here will buy it and post some screen caps first though. I want to make sure it's worth the extra dough (shipping, etc).

Kram, grab one of Daniel Day lewis in the snow in the beginning when he's making his speech before the fight. He is silhouetted against the sky and on the DVD it looked horrid.

Not my pics. Got them from the EE/DNR thread. I would never own any movie with a transfer as bad as that.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if most of the sites out there were created soley for getting free discs. DVDfile, DVDTalk, DVDTown, DVDAuthority, High-Def Digest, anything with Home Theater in it... We're onto you. :D

Basically what I wrote a few hours ago in the Patton thread. In the near term, as long as there is at least a few more folks not rushing in and blind buying then something has been learned and accomplished.

Long term, we need to wait to see what the quality of these older movies will be.

Well thanks to you all good folk I'll be waiting before I do another purchase.

With all due respect to those you feel comfortable pre-ordering their home theater software.

That door should now be considered closed.

One really must wait for a couple of trusted reviews -- and it makes no matter who it is that gives you comfort. For me, in the theatrical arena, it has been Roger Ebert for more years than I care to admit.

With quality at such a precipitous state, pre-ordering should now be something akin to a poor risk at gambling.

This is most unfortunate, but true.
RAH

This review from where I get all my reviews from gives it a 9/10 on picture quality.

http://www.dvdtown.com/reviews/gangs-of-new-york/6044/2

Saying:

"Video:
Blu-ray really captures the subtle details to be found in a film where the colors lean toward a specific palette. There are lots of golds and browns and dark tones and shadows, and in 1080p the colors seem rich, not dingy, while the level of detail is excellent. The film is presented in 2.35:1 aspect ratio, and the transfer (AVC/MPEG-4 codec) is excellent, with no apparent artifacts."

This review from where I get all my reviews from gives it a 9/10 on picture quality.


Guess you'll never shop there again.:p Read their 'Battleship Galactica HD-DVD review'.

With all due respect to those you feel comfortable pre-ordering their home theater software.

That door should now be considered closed.

One really must wait for a couple of trusted reviews -- and it makes no matter who it is that gives you comfort. For me, in the theatrical arena, it has been Roger Ebert for more years than I care to admit.

With quality at such a precipitous state, pre-ordering should now be something akin to a poor risk at gambling.

This is most unfortunate, but true.
RAH

We are getting off topic a bit, but I always have watched and enjoyed Siskel and Ebert and now Roeper. As much as I liked Ebert's reviews no one is perfect. Two things I will never forget that I think were major blunders. Home Alone was lambasted by Ebert and Siskel. They later recanted, grudgingly because the public overwhelmingly loved it and called BS on their review. Sometimes it is just about fun. Siskel and Ebert also had a best actor of all time several years back. They nominated Jack Nicholson. As much as I like Jack and his movies, IMO they were way wrong. They went back as far as film began and considered him better than Bogart and many others. Taking into account just those two tremendous blunders, I take anything anyone says with a grain of salt.

Another joke of a review:

http://www.dvdauthority.com/reviews.asp?reviewid=5663

The 2.40:1 HD AVC transfer is amazing and the detail is something that caught my eye right off the bat. Every pore on the actors faces, the smoke in the background scenes - everything, looks amazing. The film isn't hindered at all by its running time and for those that were put off by two discs last time won't have to worry about it this time around. While I wouldn't give this the five-star rating I did five years back, this is the next best thing.

Another:

http://www.dvdreview.com/reviews/pages/2856.shtml

The movie itself is presented in its original 2.35:1 widescreen aspect ratio in a 1080p high definition transfer that is wonderfully rich. Free of blemishes, specks or defects the image also shows no overt grain but retains the movie's original gritty look at any given moment. The level of detail and more importantly the color reproduction in this transfer is mesmerizing, bringing to life this wonderful production in all its gutter glory - excuse the pun.

God will have to help you because you will never -- ever -- have the amount of support for this DNR "fight" as you did for widescreen and anamorphic...

I spoke to God just now and he said he's only willing to help if we all chip in and send him on holiday to Tahiti.

There would be huge support for a fight against DNR if the studio's put some info on all the discs in much the same way as they did when widescreen vs pan and scan was all the rage...By info i mean actual footage showing the detail lost when they use excessive DNR...Consumers would be outraged and finally understand what many of us here mean when we come out against it.

With all due respect to those you feel comfortable pre-ordering their home theater software.

That door should now be considered closed.

One really must wait for a couple of trusted reviews -- and it makes no matter who it is that gives you comfort. For me, in the theatrical arena, it has been Roger Ebert for more years than I care to admit.

With quality at such a precipitous state, pre-ordering should now be something akin to a poor risk at gambling.

This is most unfortunate, but true.
RAH

+1

Why are multiple sources claiming that Gangs has an AVC transfer while other sources claim that it has a VC-1 transfer? And if it really is a VC-1 transfer, when the hell did Buena Vista start using VC-1?

Edit: Basically, I'm holding onto the vain hope that this bit from Robert Harris' review is accurate:
I am appending to this post, after having taken another look at the disc.

I must believe that there were old and new masters, with something going horribly wrong, and an incorrect and unapproved master being shipped in error.
...and that perhaps, just perhaps, the actual retail product will be this better master.

Yeah, I know it's pathetic. I just really, really, really want a quality version of Gangs of New York on BD.

I hear ya deviation. I too want a great looking version. I even bouth the UK PAL dvd back in 2003 because the R1 was so hideous. While not perfect, it was better. Even dealt with the PAL speedup to somewhat reduce the dreadful halos.

I spoken with a couple of other mods for the HDM forums. We've decided we are going to ask those the want to defend the use of DNR to take the debate to the "Official DNR Pro/Con Debate" Thread. Here's the link.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1043727


Going forward the members understand your position, so there is no need to continue to beat that drum in the specific threads on each title. No need to respond to those who disagree with the pro DNR thread. Your debate needs to go in that Official thread going forward.

So those that are PRO DNR, please post your reasonings in the Official thread.

Thanks
Ron Boster

Yeah, I know it's pathetic. I just really, really, really want a quality version of Gangs of New York on BD.
Likewise. This is the biggest titles to be release on BR this year along with Dark City, so I'd be pretty crushed if it was a bad transfer :(

There was an actual serious question in my pathetic plea: Has Buena Vista started using VC-1? AFAIK, they've been using AVC exclusively and even the official review here at AVS lists this disc as a VC-1 transfer.

Disney has in fact used VC-1 on a number of encodes. It seems to be done on a case by case basis though.

Gangs of New York is a VC-1 encode. Disney has used VC-1 before, notably on Flightplan.

Popped in the SD version of this today. It's quite evident why the studio feels they can get away with releasing a bogus BD. The actual SD version is about as LQ as I have seen (the 2 disc version too!)

Gangs of New York is a VC-1 encode. Disney has used VC-1 before, notably on Flightplan.
DVD Authority and DVDTown, which have both praised the release, both list the transfer as AVC, not VC-1. Yes, I know I'm stretching.

Have anyone imported the french Blu-Ray release? Is it region-free? and how does it compare to the crappy Region A disc?

The French AVC Encode Blu Ray is Region Free. The PQ seemed fine to me,
played it on a 50 Inch Kuro and didn't notice any excessive processing.

Subs are removable. English DTS HD

Thanks wixx. Is the audio DTS-HD HR or DTS-HD MA ? The review of the German version should be up in a couple of days.

DTS-HD Master Audio.

Have a nice day!

Why are multiple sources claiming that Gangs has an AVC transfer while other sources claim that it has a VC-1 transfer? And if it really is a VC-1 transfer, when the hell did Buena Vista start using VC-1

WTF is a AVC or VC-1 transfer?

You mean encode.

Transfer = scanning the film to a digital master
Encode = encoding the digital master to Blu-ray spec

DVD Authority and DVDTown, which have both praised the release, both list the transfer as AVC, not VC-1. Yes, I know I'm stretching.

I'm not trying to call anyone out here, but factual errors like that just seem to me to be another reason not to put much stock in those particular reviews.

Thanks wixx. Is the audio DTS-HD HR or DTS-HD MA ? The review of the German version should be up in a couple of days.Where will the German review be posted?

WTF is a AVC or VC-1 transfer?

You mean encode.

Transfer = scanning the film to a digital master
Encode = encoding the digital master to Blu-ray spec
What you're missing is that my vain, grasping-for-straws hope is that these would-be different encodes are from actual different transfers.

Where will the German review be posted?

www.areadvd.de
www.blurayreviews.ch
www.cinefacts.de

lgans those links just go to the sites not the reviews

Aforementioned you need to patient until they post the review. Also you need to do some due diligence on how to go through the reviews that are archived.:p

tricky when the page is in german though~!

:)

www.areadvd.de
www.blurayreviews.ch
www.cinefacts.deMany thanks.