I am looking for a DVD recorder that handles 4:3 images in a sensible way.

I have a widescreen TV. When I insert a disc that is not anamorphic widescreen, there are two ways I might want to view it.

I might want to view a 4:3 image in the center of my screen, with black bars down the left and right sides to maintain the proper aspect ratio.

Or I might want to view an image that fills the width of my TV, with the top and bottom of the image cropped to maintain the aspect ratio. This option is useful for open matte movies and for non-anamorphic widescreen movies that have letterbox bars hardcoded into the DVD image.

The one DVD recorder I have tried (LG RC897T) does not correctly handle non-anamorphic disks. It does not detect that the disc is non-anamorphic, and presents a stretched image. (It does correctly handle anamorphic widescreen DVDs.) The DVD recorder should automatically detect when a disc is non-anamorphic and give me the appropriate choices for how to view it.

I have looked online at user manuals for models from several manufacturers, and have found no indication in any of them that they correctly handle this. Strangely, most DVD players (including software DVD players for my computer) seem able to handle these discs correctly, but DVD recorders do not.

I also want similarly correct behavior when viewing 4:3 images input from my cable box into the DVD recorder. I should be able to get either a 4:3 image in the center of my screen or a cropped image that fills my screen.

Can anybody recommend DVD recorders that actually handle non-anamorphic discs and 4:3 cable images the way they're supposed to?

Thanks!!!

I've never had any trouble with any players or recorders, once they were set right. To answer your question, the Panny recorders have this setting, as I'm sure most do. Zooming is another thing completely, and not all players/recorders will have a zoom setting that works well for lettboxed movies. Your monitor should also have some sort of zoom function as well.

Yes, the LG recorder had a setting to indicate the aspect ratio of my TV. But even with that setting correct -- and there seemed to be no other relevant settings -- non-anamorphic discs were treated the same way as anamorphic disks, and the image therefore stretched. The input from the cable box was also displayed stretched.

Besides the setting for the aspect ratio of your TV, there is usually a second setting for how your DVDR handles 4x3 images. Zooming should be done by your monitor.

I have a Pio DVDR, and DVD players made by Sony, Philips, and Toshiba. NONE of them stretch a 4x3 image.

Besides the setting for the aspect ratio of your TV, there is usually a second setting for how your DVDR handles 4x3 images.

Strange. I went to Best Buy today and, with a salesman's help, tested DVR recorders from several manufacturers. In all of them, we easily found the setting for TV aspect ratio and set it to 16:9, as it was hooked up to a widescreen TV. In none of them could we find a setting for how to handle 4:3 images.

If you can name a model that does have such a setting, I will find the user manual online and see if I can find that setting. (Except Toshiba. They don't put their user manuals on line.)

Zooming should be done by your monitor.

Using the monitor to correct the aspect ratio is an unacceptable solution for many reasons. (Feel free to respond to any or all of these.)

1) When I insert a disk, I don't always know whether it is anamorphic or not. I would have to watch part of the movie in order to determine this. Hence it could take me 2-3 minutes to get the monitor set up correctly. The DVD player should be able to determine whether a disc is anamorphic or not and give me the correct image at the touch of a button.

2) When I am watching an open matte movie, or a non-anamorphic widescreen movie that has letterbox bars hardcoded into the video image, I want to crop the top and bottom of the image. Doing this with the monitor is no good for several reasons:

2a) If I am watching a movie with subtitles, cropping with the monitor will crop off the subtitles. A DVD player that is smart enough to crop the image will also place the subtitles correctly.

2b) Setting the monitor to crop will also crop when the disc menu is displayed, potentially rendering some options invisible. Hence I would need to change the monitor settings every time I go from the movie to the menu or vice versa. Or, for that matter, when going from an anamorphic movie to a non-anamorphic special feature or vice versa; as before, I'd have to watch part of the special feature to determine whether it is anamorphic or not.

3) [This is a very minor concern.] Using the monitor to crop the image wastes bandwidth on parts of the image that are not displayed, resulting in slightly inferior video quality.

I have a Pio DVDR, and DVD players made by Sony, Philips, and Toshiba. NONE of them stretch a 4x3 image.

Strange. I tested DVR models from several different manufacturers, and they ALL stretched the image.

My Samsung DVD-P421 DVD player handled the non-anamorphic discs intelligently until it recently ceased to function. I could probably find a used or refurbished one of those online and buy it, but it doesn't have the recording functionality.

[EDIT: No I can't find a used DVD-P421 online. I just looked.]

Thanks...

Strange. I went to Best Buy today and, with a salesman's help, tested DVR recorders from several manufacturers. In all of them, we easily found the setting for TV aspect ratio and set it to 16:9, as it was hooked up to a widescreen TV. In none of them could we find a setting for how to handle 4:3 images.


All the devices here have 2 settings for 16:9. One is a "normal 16:9" setting and the other is "auto 16:9". The only difference is that with one setting you need to change your monitor to 4:3, and with the auto setting you don't. Reading manuals is a pretty good way to learn this stuff. In any case, we're talking about a few button presses and maybe 10 seconds time.

"Cropping" as you call it is actually zooming, and results in the loss of a significant amount of image. There's no such thing as a player that will do this without also zooming out the subtitles, although that would depend on the percentage of the zoom. There's no such thing as "cropping" in a player, and never has been.

I'd suggest you learn a bit more about all this, since you are incorrect about a number of things. Zooming ALWAYS results in a loss of PQ, regardless of whether it's done in the player or the monitor. The only difference is that various players and monitors have different zooming percentages and methods. The better players offer zooming in a variety of modes and percentages, but the end result is always a loss of image and PQ. Any time you zoom 300+ lines of resolution to 480, you lose quality.

All the devices here have 2 settings for 16:9. One is a "normal 16:9" setting and the other is "auto 16:9".
Name one such model (other than Toshiba). I will look up the user manual online. If I can't find it, maybe you can point it out to me.

"Cropping" as you call it is actually zooming, and results in the loss of a significant amount of image. There's no such thing as a player that will do this without also zooming out the subtitles
Yes there is. My recently deceased DVD player would do this without losing the subtitles. So do my software DVD players: Apple's "DVD Player.app" and "VLC.app."

There's no such thing as "cropping" in a player, and never has been.
Wrong. My Samsung DVD-P241 did the job just fine, as do the software DVD players I mentioned above.

2a) If I am watching a movie with subtitles, cropping with the monitor will crop off the subtitles. A DVD player that is smart enough to crop the image will also place the subtitles correctly.




Strange. I tested DVR models from several different manufacturers, and they ALL stretched the image.


I'm not at home, so I can't check my manuals at the moment.

RDGrimes is correct, whether the monitor, or the DVD player zooms, there will be the same PQ, because the player can't add pixels that aren't on the DVD.

On my Samsung DLP, and I suspect most monitors, when I zoom in for a non-anamorphic 2.35:1, or 1.85:1 image, I can adjust the image upwards, so subtitles are not cropped. I watch a LOT of films with subtitles, from IFC and Sundance, and other sources.

As to "they all stretch the image," we may be talking past each other. When I say none of my players stretch the 4x3 image, I mean it is my monitor that does the stretching. So, when I play a 4x3 image from a DVD, I have to switch the monitor to 4x3, instead of the "Wide" setting that I use normally, for all sources other than 480i.

The only advantage that I can see to using the player to zoom the image is that many HD monitors, including mine, only have two settings for signals other than 480i, and that is "Wide," and "4x3." So, to zoom the odd DVD with a LB 4x3 image, I have to switch to a S-Vid input. But, such DVDs are rather rare.

So, to zoom the odd DVD with a LB 4x3 image, I have to switch to a S-Vid input. But, such DVDs are rather rare.

They're not that rare. I have several non-anamorphic widescreen DVDs with letterbox bars hardcoded into the DVD image. I have even more open matte non-anamorphic DVDs. With both types of DVDs, cropping the top and bottom of the image is the correct thing to do on a widescreen monitor, but losing the subtitles is obviously a bad thing.

Similarly, my having to determine whether or not a disc is anamorphic and set the monitor settings appropriately is a bad thing; it could take me several minutes to determine whether a DVD is anamorphic. An intelligent DVD player should be able to distinguish between an anamorphic and a non-anamorphic DVD and do the right thing in no time at all. My recently deceased DVD player handled this just fine, as do my software DVD players.

RDGrimes is correct, whether the monitor, or the DVD player zooms, there will be the same PQ, because the player can't add pixels that aren't on the DVD.

In theory, sure. But the fact is my Panasonic TV does a much better job of zooming than my Philips 3575, within the range it can zoom. The 3575's output looks fuzzier than it should when zoomed, while the Panasonic's zoom scaling algorithm seems to produce a more acceptable picture. Also the Panasonic TV has fine zoom scale adjustment, within a limited range - the 3575 can zoom more in discrete steps, but the quality is so poor that I normally wouldn't want to.

I agree with amesdp, my TV does a fine job of zooming while my favorite Sony DVD player pales in comparison. The Panasonic EZ-28 wasn't much better. Personally I'd never use any of the DVD players/recorders that I've used for the zoom function. My Panasonic LCD does a much better job zooming.
OK I sometimes use the zoom on the DVD units. The Sony is able to zoom in 4x so if I want to try and read some fine print I might use the zoom for that(plus it has pan and scan while in the zoom mode), but never for watching a movie. I also think it looks a little jerky while zoomed. Kind of like the digital zoom can't keep up with the action. My LCD like amesdps allows me to fine tune the zoom so I can make it fit exactly on my screen. The DVD units are only crude steps like 2x, 4x.

Wow, I can hardly believe what I'm reading.

My old DVD player did a great job of handling open matte and non-anamorphic widescreen movies, and so do my software DVD players.

Now I'm hearing everybody say, "The DVD player isn't supposed to be smart enough to handle that. Use your monitor to handle it instead." As I explained before, this is a horrible solution for a number of reasons:
1) When I insert a disk, I don't always know whether it is anamorphic or not. I would have to watch part of the movie in order to determine this. Hence it could take me 2-3 minutes to get the monitor set up correctly. The DVD player should be able to determine whether a disc is anamorphic or not and give me the correct image at the touch of a button.

2) When I am watching an open matte movie, or a non-anamorphic widescreen movie that has letterbox bars hardcoded into the video image, I want to crop the top and bottom of the image. Doing this with the monitor is no good for several reasons:

2a) If I am watching a movie with subtitles, cropping with the monitor will crop off the subtitles. A DVD player that is smart enough to crop the image will also place the subtitles correctly.

2b) Setting the monitor to crop will also crop when the disc menu is displayed, potentially rendering some options invisible. Hence I would need to change the monitor settings every time I go from the movie to the menu or vice versa.

Am I the only person around who ever watches open matte or non-anamorphic widescreen movies? Because anybody who does would recognize the necessity of a DVD player being able to handle them intelligently.

op, are you using hmdi out from your recorder.
if so that may be part of the problem. none of my sd dvd players will put out a 4x3 or non-anamorphic w/s sd dvd over hdmi @720p or 1080i into either my pj or flat panel. when i try it i get squished 4x3 or stretched w/s image.

the only way i can use hdmi for said discs is to use 480p which means pressing two buttons on the player and one button on the pj/hdtv. a minor pita but it works.

however, my 2 toshiba hd dvd players (hd-a2, hd-a30) will allow 4x3 and non-anamorphic w/s sd dvds over hdmi @ 720p and 1080i to have normal looking images.

I think this thread should be re-named "why are there black bars at the top and bottom of my screen?" and relegated to the depths where it belongs.

op, are you using hmdi out from your recorder.

component

I think this thread should be re-named "why are there black bars at the top and bottom of my screen?" and relegated to the depths where it belongs.

I know why the black bars are there. I'm looking for a unit that handles the non-anamorphic widescreen and open matte DVDs correctly. (Open matte movies, by the way, do not have black bars at the top and bottom of the image.) My DVD-P241 handled these discs correctly, as do my software DVD players.

Do you have a widescreen TV? Do you ever watch non-anamorphic widescreen movies or open matte movies? I don't understand why you're having a tough time understanding my question.

I find the samsung dvd players handle thos problem verry well

I find the samsung dvd players handle thos problem verry well
My Samsung DVD-P241 player handled it perfectly, but it wasn't a recorder. I'm looking for a DVD recorder that handles the problem correctly. Bizarrely, the Samsung DVD recorders that I have looked at do not handle the non-anamorphic discs correctly. Why, when they had the problem solved in previous models, would they remove the feature from later models? I don't know why, but they did.

Now I'm hearing everybody say, "The DVD player isn't supposed to be smart enough to handle that. Use your monitor to handle it instead."

I think all we're saying is that most DVD players and most TVs are not as smart as they should be about handling aspect ratios and zooming, but between the TV and DVD player you can usually correct manually to something acceptable with any given movie. I agree that the handling of aspect ratios in consumer video gear is an abominable mess. If your old DVD player does a better job than most, hang on to it.

If your old DVD player does a better job than most, hang on to it.

Unfortunately, I can't hang onto it, because it recently ceased to function.

Still, any Samsung DVD player with the "EZ View" feature will do the trick, and it’s still possible to find units with this feature. I will probably end up buying one, and forgoing the ability to record. (Possibly I will purchase a second unit for recording.)

Adminkoff, you asked for a page number in a manual that tells about setting the 4x3 output in a DVD player, other than a Tosh. For my Sony DVP-CX 995, it is on page 79. My Pio 640 says to set 4x3 handling with the monitor. My Tosh player manual tells how on page 35. I didn't spend time looking for the manual to my old Philips changer, to see what page it has that info on.

I watch LOTS of non-anamorphic WS DVDs, because I burn them on my Pio DVDR. On my Samsung DLP TV, I adjust the picture to "Zoom 1," and if the content has subtitles below the image area, on a 2.35:1, or 1.85:1 film, I just use the up arrow to move the image up, and show the titles. So, I find this to be no problem at all. With a 1.66:1 film with subs, well, the set stays at normal 4x3. But, those are rare.

For my Sony DVP-CX 995, it is on page 79.
Crap. I can't find that manual on Sony.com. And unless I'm mistaken, it's not a recorder anyway.

My Pio 640 says to set 4x3 handling with the monitor.
That is a totally unacceptable solution. It crops subtitles and renders menus unusable. Moving the image down to display the subtitles crops too much off the top of the image and decapitates people. No good. ****s up the menus, too.

My Tosh player manual tells how on page 35.
Can you give a model number? Not that I could find the manual online, but maybe I could get it by calling them.

Note that I'm not looking for just a player. I have found plenty of players that handle non-anamorphic discs correctly. I just haven't found any recorders that do. Is your Tosh player a recorder?

I didn't spend time looking for the manual to my old Philips changer, to see what page it has that info on.
What model is it? Is it a recorder?

On my Samsung DLP TV, I adjust the picture to "Zoom 1," and if the content has subtitles below the image area, on a 2.35:1, or 1.85:1 film, I just use the up arrow to move the image up, and show the titles.
As I have stated, I find this solution to be totally unacceptable for a number of reasons. I have a Samsung DLP TV myself and have experimented with this approach. The results of my experiments can be summed up in two words: It sucks.

As I have stated, I find this solution to be totally unacceptable for a number of reasons. I have a Samsung DLP TV myself and have experimented with this approach. The results of my experiments can be summed up in two words: It sucks.

Only mi Pio 640 is a recorder. The other three are players.

As to your "experiments," I think it works fine, I do not lose subtitles, or part of the picture, on 2.35:1 or 1.85:1 films. You think it sucks. Well, I guess you are entitled to your opinion. You say you have no trouble finding a player that handles 4x3 to your liking. The obvious solution is to have a recorder and a player. Most people think that is the best thing to do anyway. You save wear and tear on the recorder, by using the player for playback, so your recorder lasts longer.

The obvious solution is to have a recorder and a player.

I think that's what I'm going to end up doing.