video Business (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6572676.html)

Blu-ray has outpaced DVD adoption
U.S., Europe sales bolstered by PlayStation 3 console
By Danny King -- Video Business, 6/23/2008

JUNE 23 | The adoption rate of Blu-ray Disc drives has outpaced that of standard-definition DVD players almost a decade ago on both sides of the Atlantic because of gamers buying Sony's PlayStation 3 consoles, which include the high-definition disc drives, according to separate estimates.

As of the end of this year, Blu-ray's third on the market, Western European consumers will have acquired Blu-ray drives at more than six times the rate buyers had bought standard disc players by the end of 1999, U.K.-based Futuresource Consulting said last week. In the U.S., customers are acquiring Blu-ray drives at three times the rate they bought DVD players nine years ago, said Michael Youn, Lionsgate’s VP of strategic planning and business development, at a Las Vegas conference yesterday.

Studios and retailers alike are hoping that a higher consumer penetration of Blu-ray players will help reverse a drop in home entertainment spending last year. U.S. customers spent $23.4 billion buying or renting DVDs in 2007, down from $24.1 billion in 2006, according to trade group the Digital Entertainment Group. Studios such as Lionsgate are forecasting about $1 billion in Blu-ray sales this year.

“Longer term, as player prices continue to fall, title availability grows and awareness increases, Blu-ray Disc players will become the product of choice, given the fact that they also play DVD and CD media,” said Jim Bottoms, managing director of corporate development at Futuresource, which was formerly known as Understanding & Solutions. “There will come a time when the branded suppliers focus on this higher capacity drive, mirroring the trend we saw with DVD players replacing CD decks.”

With videogaming industry revenue booming, PlayStation 3’s inclusion of a Blu-ray player is likely the reason for the faster growth on both continents. Of the 15 million Blu-ray drives owned by U.S. consumers at the end of last year, 4 million were stand-alone set-top boxes, compared with 5 million standard-definition players installed by the end of 1999, said Youn. Western Europeans will have acquired 10.5 billion Blu-ray drives by the end of 2008, compared with 1.58 million standard machines by 1999, said Futuresource, which didn’t break out PlayStation or stand-alone player sales.

Blu-ray’s outpacing of standard DVD growth is expected to continue as manufacturers and retailers drop prices on both stand-alone Blu-ray players and PlayStation 3s.

Wal-Mart’s selling of its cheapest Blu-ray players at about $200 and a wider Blu-ray title inventory will help push U.S. Blu-ray disc sales to $1 billion this year and as high as $10 billion by 2013, said Youn.

In Europe, more than 30 million people will own either a Blu-ray set-top player or PlayStation 3 by the end of 2010, compared with the 17 million standard players owned there in 2001.

“The timing of the PS3 launch has clearly provided a big boost to the initial uptake of Blu-ray,” said Bottoms. “With a number of hot games titles now starting to emerge and console prices continuing to fall, we can expect to see continued strong uptake.”

video Business (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6572676.html)

Well, we see if it is so, many predictions so far has failed.
DVD adoption took speed from 1999, as those dvd payer prices started to fall.
Now day you must sell at low price or there will be a poor adoption.

Guess only hardcore fans are buying Hi Def Media, and those aren't as many as the total volyme of DVD players sold.

Wow. I guess it is true when you say Blu-ray players have sold faster than DVD players ...when you include PS3s. Not really apples to apples it it?

btw, and you can look this up, in 1999, Saving Private Ryan on DVD outsold VHS. For Blu-ray a movie might reach 10, 15% of DVD sales?

I guess 99 was the peak of vhs era.

95% is on dvd market as of today, it'll change that's for sure.

But one must keep on it's mind and that's the future digital download services. No one knows how huge that can be, nobody.

But Hi Def TV is here to stay.

I sure hope these journalists remember to start including PS2 sales when they compare DVD vs. Blu-ray sales from 2009 onwards.

Blu-ray is getting a boost of player numbers early due to the fact that the PS3 was one of the launch players and it is multi-use. The real test from 2009+ will be to see how well player sales compare to the dvd market from 2000+ post PS2 release.

Also, It would be nice if they would have compared media sales. The Matrix hit 1.5 million units sold 10 days after its release in September of 1999. I don't see that type of momentum with any blu-ray titles yet.

Having a solid installed base of players is nice - and we can nitpick the numbers to death - but at the end of the day it is the number of movies/discs sold that is most important. Do the math - compare $$ spent on hardware versus $$$$ spent on software and it becomes quite clear which is most critical to the success/growth of the format.

PS3 is tricky, becase while most people bought it as a gaming platform (and likely do not buy bluray discs), a material percentage of people bought it as a bluray player because it was (and to some degree still is) the least expensive, fully-featured player available. But there is no way to know how many of the former and how many of the latter so it becomes the favored spin statistic for folks trying to justify their position.

Compare bluray discs sold with comparable DVD discs sold, and you will have a much better metric for the success of the format. While I do expect bluray to succeed, I would be shocked if it proved to be a more sucessful at a faster pace than DVD.

Compare bluray discs sold with comparable DVD discs sold, and you will have a much better metric for the success of the format. While I do expect bluray to succeed, I would be shocked if it proved to be a more sucessful at a faster pace than DVD.

Thats really the only method, sure the number of sold players is always interesting, but when you have alot of players sales and not as much software sales its not as good as it sounds. Many have bought the PS3 to other things then just a movie playback device.

I think when they write things like this, its to attract consumers to buy into the format, because a format that grews quicker then DVD, must be part of the future. The more they write things like this, the more will the consumer be aware of Bluray.

I think most here are aware that it still gonna need some effort to make it even half as sucessful as DVD.

I sure hope these journalists remember to start including PS2 sales when they compare DVD vs. Blu-ray sales from 2009 onwards.

Blu-ray is getting a boost of player numbers early due to the fact that the PS3 was one of the launch players and it is multi-use. The real test from 2009+ will be to see how well player sales compare to the dvd market from 2000+ post PS2 release.

Also, It would be nice if they would have compared media sales. The Matrix hit 1.5 million units sold 10 days after its release in September of 1999. I don't see that type of momentum with any blu-ray titles yet.

Their is a huge difference from the PS2 to the PS3. Most knew the PS2 sucked for DVD playback and did not use it for DVD's. Most now know the PS3 excels at BD playback and is right up their with the high end stand alones.

While there has been some dispute about the uptake rate for Blu-ray vs DVD, for German optical disc manufacturer Singulus Technologies it's not even close, with orders for Blu-ray dual layer machines far surpassing DVD dual layer orders at comparable points in the evolution of the two formats.

Full story (http://www.hollywoodinhidef.com/blog_detail.php?id=206)

Posted previously in the news thread

Which $200 Walmart BD player is the articles author referring to???

I can't ever remember a more inacurate review of the current blu ray player landscape. For example:

Of the 15 million Blu-ray drives owned by U.S. consumers at the end of last year, 4 million were stand-alone set-top boxes, compared with 5 million standard-definition players installed by the end of 1999, said Youn.

4 million stand alone blu-ray players in the U.S. at the end of last year? Huh? Where'd those come from?

15 million blu-ray drives in the U.S.? Huh?

There are less than one million stand alones in the U.S. and the PS3 has sold around 5 million units since inception.

Wow. I guess it is true when you say Blu-ray players have sold faster than DVD players ...when you include PS3s. Not really apples to apples it it?

btw, and you can look this up, in 1999, Saving Private Ryan on DVD outsold VHS. For Blu-ray a movie might reach 10, 15% of DVD sales?

Compared to DVD, VHS was more of a rental format, and never a big seller. So VHS to DVD sales figures are really irrelevant when talking about DVD to BD sales figures.

In 2007 there were 9 million HD discs sold to the owners of those 15 million bluray players.

Their is a huge difference from the PS2 to the PS3. Most knew the PS2 sucked for DVD playback and did not use it for DVD's. Most now know the PS3 excels at BD playback and is right up their with the high end stand alones.

Yes there is a difference. The point I was making is you need to compare apples to apples. No one really has an exact figure for how many people really use the blu-ray capabilities of the PS3 outside of a curiosity. By the same token, no one really has numbers on how many people used the PS2 as their primary DVD player either. I do think though that "Most knew the PS2 sucked for DVD playback and did not use it for DVD's." is a fairly unqualified statement. I would agree that the PS2 was not a stellar DVD player, but I would disagree that not many used it for a DVD player. Many people I know relied on the PS2 as their primary DVD player until standalones dropped into the sub $100 range.

However, if you are going to include the total number of PS3s sold as part of blu-ray hardware sales without any sort of qualifying metric, you must do the same for PS2 sales when you get the the corresponding point in the format's lifespan if you want to keep all things equal. What you are essentially doing is tracking how many people have the capability of playing each disc format.

To really chart adoption rates, you must look at media sales. Even that's not perfect though due to the fact that you are looking at different movie release windows in different time frames as was as changes in consumer habits over time.

Replication capacity gives us some more hints, but you must keep in mind that orders for new equipment are projections for demand, not current real world demand. Also, just because Warner replicates 1,000,000 copies of 10,000 BC doesn't mean that 1mil people will line up to buy it either. Disc demand is still rather soft, otherwise we wouldn't continue to see constant promotions.

For cripes sake!

Fix the friggin thread title!

Blu-ray has outpaced DVD adoption in Europe.

Enough of the BS please.

This is AV Science . . . .

Not AV Science Fiction.:rolleyes:

Both European and U.S. numbers were included in the article.

They are all wrong but none the less included.

Here . . . DVD's numbers for 1999 (USA only):

http://www.dvdinformation.com/News/press/CES010807.htm

And here for 2007 and HDM players. Which includes both Blu-ray and HD DVD. And by the way PS3 units. Sell through of 4.5 million units.

Digital Entertainment Group (http://www.dvdinformation.com/News/press/CES2008yearEnd.htm)

High definition media devices – including set-top box and game consoles – are now available in some 10,000 storefronts in North America. These players sold through nearly 4.5 million units since launch in 2006, according to numbers compiled by the DEG with input from retail tracking sources.

I don't get how 4.5 million somehow becomes 15 million. Plus the 4.5 million figure includes close to 1 million HD DVD players.

Any way you slice it, dice it, or try to refute it, bottom line is this: It's good news for hi-def lovers.

Any way you slice it, dice it, or try to refute it, bottom line is this: It's good news for hi-def lovers.

Seems like nextoo just sliced, diced and refuted it quite nicely.

Bottom line is this: it's not "news" at all.

Remember. "90% of all statistics can be made to say anything."

"50% of the time."

;)

Remember. "90% of all statistics can be made to say anything."

"50% of the time."

;)

I came across this quote yesterday, slightly OT though it may be...

Ninety percent of science fiction is crap, but then ninety percent of everything is crap.”
-Theodore Sturgeon

And here for 2007 and HDM players. Which includes both Blu-ray and HD DVD. And by the way PS3 units. Sell through of 4.5 million units.

Digital Entertainment Group (http://www.dvdinformation.com/News/press/CES2008yearEnd.htm)

I don't get how 4.5 million somehow becomes 15 million. Plus the 4.5 million figure includes close to 1 million HD DVD players.Probably 15 million are the worldwide figures, the reporter got wires crossed.

My first DVD player was the least expensive one on the market at the time. It also was the first DVD player of many, many others. In fact, I still use it to this day, as a DVD player, and yes I still play games on it as well (yes, it is a PS2).

My first Blu-ray player was the least expensive one on the market at the time. It also was the first Blu-ray player of many, many others...

And yes, I play games on my PS3, and yes, I watch blu-ray movies on my PS3, and yes, so do many, many others.

Yes there is a difference. The point I was making is you need to compare apples to apples. No one really has an exact figure for how many people really use the blu-ray capabilities of the PS3 outside of a curiosity. By the same token, no one really has numbers on how many people used the PS2 as their primary DVD player either. I do think though that "Most knew the PS2 sucked for DVD playback and did not use it for DVD's." is a fairly unqualified statement. I would agree that the PS2 was not a stellar DVD player, but I would disagree that not many used it for a DVD player. Many people I know relied on the PS2 as their primary DVD player until standalones dropped into the sub $100 range.

However, if you are going to include the total number of PS3s sold as part of blu-ray hardware sales without any sort of qualifying metric, you must do the same for PS2 sales when you get the the corresponding point in the format's lifespan if you want to keep all things equal. What you are essentially doing is tracking how many people have the capability of playing each disc format.

To really chart adoption rates, you must look at media sales. Even that's not perfect though due to the fact that you are looking at different movie release windows in different time frames as was as changes in consumer habits over time.

Replication capacity gives us some more hints, but you must keep in mind that orders for new equipment are projections for demand, not current real world demand. Also, just because Warner replicates 1,000,000 copies of 10,000 BC doesn't mean that 1mil people will line up to buy it either. Disc demand is still rather soft, otherwise we wouldn't continue to see constant promotions.

You are incorrect. Most did not use the PS2 as their primary DVD player or even to play DVD's at all. The PS2 was 299.00 when it first came out in 2000-1. By the time they were out 4 years, DVD players were under 100.00 which was 2001 while the PS2 didn't sell for 199.00 till I believe 2001.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2001/12/05/gift-guide-dvd.htm

The PS2 was just coming out in the end of 2000 and wasn't readily available to 2001.

Many back then were told not to connect a game console to a tv for fear of burn in and they were right with crt's being the only game in town. The point being many parents would not allow little johnny to connect his PS2 to their main tv.

You had me second guessing for a while but after revisting history of both DVD players and PS2's and their respective prices, what you said I know beyond a doubt just isn't true.

Just based on price alone DVD players were half the cost of the PS2 back in 2001 and the quality of DVD playback far better, so there is no doubt based on those facts and my recollection that many didn't use the PS2 for DVD's.

btw, and you can look this up, in 1999, Saving Private Ryan on DVD outsold VHS. For Blu-ray a movie might reach 10, 15% of DVD sales?
This is not a valid comparison of one format versus another. VHS sales (as opposed to rentals) was always a much smaller market than DVD has become, even in its later years when tapes were cheap.

omg 10.5 billion blu ray drives just in Western Europe!!

Yeah futuresource will probably be pissed at this guy butchering their words.

Wow. I guess it is true when you say Blu-ray players have sold faster than DVD players ...when you include PS3s.

Pretending the most popular and most capable Blu-ray player doesn't exist didn't work for the HD DVD Promotions group, and it doesn't work for you.

Pretending the most popular and most capable Blu-ray player doesn't exist didn't work for the HD DVD Promotions group, and it doesn't work for you.

Problem is that not every PS3 is used a movie playback device.

Sure the PS3 is an important part of BDs adoption, but to include every sold PS3 an attemp to show that BD has outpaced DVD is pushing it.

So far most here would agree that BD isnt ahead of DVD adoption.

So far most here would agree that BD isnt ahead of DVD adoption.

If you compare apples to apples, and look at BD adoption among people who have the capability of taking advantage of it (HDTV owners), then BD is waaaay ahead in adoption over DVD.

Pretending the most popular and most capable Blu-ray player doesn't exist didn't work for the HD DVD Promotions group, and it doesn't work for you.

The war is over, you can stop the fanboi comments. No one said the PS3 doesn't exist...except you. Its also really funny how quick you are to bring up HD DVD.

btw, as a long time PS3 owner, I know that it is first and foremost a game console. People who watch movies on it are in the minority... hence the low disc sales.

As for the OP, it is VERY misleading. No one believes that EVERY PS3 is being used as a Blu-ray player, and Blu-ray is way behind DVD in SW sales. Not to mention that there are more consumers today than there were 10 years ago.

If you compare apples to apples, and look at BD adoption among people who have the capability of taking advantage of it (HDTV owners), then BD is waaaay ahead in adoption over DVD.

Really?

You know for a fact that ALL PS3's are attached to HDTV's?

That is news to me.

If you compare apples to apples, and look at BD adoption among people who have the capability of taking advantage of it (HDTV owners), then BD is waaaay ahead in adoption over DVD.

I havnt got any numbers how many % of the HDTV owners buys bluray.

But its really pointless, since people that buys HDTV may be more eager to purchase new tech.

Im sure DVD adoption was faster aswell if you only counted thoose who had widescreen sets and surroundsystems.

In the end, can we agree that BD isnt adopted as a format as fast as DVD?

(Im not saying that its a bad sign, because I wasnt expecting a HD format to adapt as quickly as DVD, maybe the high end users adapted it quicker, but not the more mainstream audience)

I can't ever remember a more inacurate review of the current blu ray player landscape. For example:



4 million stand alone blu-ray players in the U.S. at the end of last year? Huh? Where'd those come from?

15 million blu-ray drives in the U.S.? Huh?

There are less than one million stand alones in the U.S. and the PS3 has sold around 5 million units since inception.

Current sales of the PS3 are at 12.81 million according the Great Oracle (wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ps3))


I agree with what most have said. You can never get a real answer it seems on disc sales. I came up with 2.3 million BD discs sold in europe in 2007 (PS3 Fanboy (http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/02/14/blu-ray-sales-surpass-2-million-in-europe/))

Ok this I have more belief in. From High def digest (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/tags/show/Disc_Sales):


Propelled by strong sales of 'No Country for Old Men,' total U.S. Blu-ray software sales since inception have now topped 9 million through the week ending March 16.

According to HMR research, BD unit sales for the first 11 weeks of this year lodged 3 million units, adding to the 6 million the format had sold previously since its launch in mid-2006. The year's strong sales pace thus far puts Blu-ray solidly on track to top at least 15 million units sold for 2008.



So if they have sold 9 million discs, 4 million standalones and about 13 million PS3s, what does that say about the number of PS3s actually actively being used for movies. I stress actively.... not playing 1 or 2 discs in a year.

Of course this is not the total picture. Lets assume you multiply that number by 10 to account for rentals, you would get 45 million. Now, SAs are going to account for a large number of these (why else would you buy a standalone). If they only watched 1 bluray a month that would be 12 per year or about 48 million..... see where I am going with this?

I see people pushing 50% of PS3s/ 33% of PS3s / 75% of PS3s are used for movie watching in addition to gaming.... but the math doesn't add up.

If even 50% of the PS3s (6 million) watched a BD only once every other week. That would be 156 million viewings. If they bought 1 out of 10 . that would be 15.6 million sales. Now you could say they buy 1 out of 20 which I think is REALLY light. Then you would get 7 million. but you still need to account for the SAs. At 4 million, your number of PS3s playing movies no longer holds water. These people that are spending $300-$600 for a player are actually more likely buy the disc. and we haven't even included the Bluray PC drives yet.

This is just my opinion, but I think only 20% of PS3 are actively used for movies on a weekly/biweekly basis.

Really?

You know for a fact that ALL PS3's are attached to HDTV's?

That is news to me.

No. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that a larger percentage of people who own HDTV's are buying BD, than the percentage of people who bought DVD who owned standard TV's at the same point in each formats lifetime.

No. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that a larger percentage of people who own HDTV's are buying BD, than the percentage of people who bought DVD who owned standard TV's at the same point in each formats lifetime.

You logic is flawed though. You don't have the data to compare the number of people with s-video input TVs that bought DVd players. A large majority of the DVDs sold at the beginning only had s-video outs. I had to buy an RF converter for mine.

To keep it in line, you would need to compare the number of DVDs to the number of larger TVs sold from 1995-2000.

No. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that a larger percentage of people who own HDTV's are buying BD, than the percentage of people who bought DVD who owned standard TV's at the same point in each formats lifetime.

But then just about everyone had a TV, but it's more than likely enthusiasts and/or those with more disposable income have had HD sets, especially before the holiday season of '07. So this becomes a percent comparison of the general population compared to a select population that is more affluent and generally more interested in the latest technology.

It doesn't matter how we slice the numbers, how we count the PS3, or what the retailers predict. Software sales and release slates tell us that Blu-ray is not even close to outpacing DVD adoption at this stage of its life. Not that I think this even matters much for the health of the format, but the article is just a twisting of numbers to make a desired point.

I think what the OP meant was Blu-ray Players out pace Blu-ray discs.

Think about it, 12.81 million PS3sand a couple million stand-alones, compared to 9-12 million Blu-ray discs.:D:D

I think what the OP meant was Blu-ray Players out pace Blu-ray discs.

Think about it, 12.81 million PS3sand a couple million stand-alones, compared to 9-12 million Blu-ray discs.:D:D

You know what the real gauge is now that I think about it? How much shelf space is devoted to Bluray and How much devoted to DVD.... at Blockbuster B&M? at Bestbuy?

I am not just talking about the media because there is alot more content for DVD.

My Wallyworlds have about 12 DVD players and recorders and 1 SA Bluray player. Even my best buy has an endcap for Bluray and a whole aisle for DVD players. That speaks volumes.

Don't beleive me? When you go to best buy, which TV sets outnumber the rest by a massive number.... the LCDs, right? And what is the fastest selling TV right now? LCD. (I am not an LCD fanboy - I have a DLP FP myself, LCD bedroom tv, 3 LCD monitors and 2 CRT TVs. If anything, I am actually probably anti-LCD for >42" HDTVs)

Same as the above for Wallyword too.

I was reading an another thread and it brought me back to this one.

I am really starting to think that 2012 is way too soon.

Consider this. Current sales of the PS3 are at 12.81 million according the Great Oracle (wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ps3))

I agree with what most have said. You can never get a real answer it seems on disc sales. I came up with 2.3 million BD discs sold in europe in 2007 (PS3 Fanboy (http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/02/14/blu-ray-sales-surpass-2-million-in-europe/))

Ok this I have more belief in. From High def digest (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/tags/show/Disc_Sales):




So if they have sold 9 million discs, 4 million standalones and about 13 million PS3s, what does that say about the number of PS3s actually actively being used for movies. I stress actively.... not playing 1 or 2 discs in a year.

Of course this is not the total picture. Lets assume you multiply that number by 10 to account for rentals, you would get 45 million. Now, SAs are going to account for a large number of these (why else would you buy a standalone). If they only watched 1 bluray a month that would be 12 per year or about 48 million..... see where I am going with this?I'm sorry, but you've got a bunch of flaws in here:

You're comparing US disc sales to worldwide player sales
You're comparing sales from 3 different time periods. You've cited the December 2007 SI disc numbers from Europe, the March 2008 SI disc numbers for the US, and the May 2008 SI PS3 numbers from the entire world.
I can't tell where you're adding the numbers in to get your figures. You somehow come up with 45m units from (as far as I can tell) nowhere, for instance.

I see people pushing 50% of PS3s/ 33% of PS3s / 75% of PS3s are used for movie watching in addition to gaming.... but the math doesn't add up.And as I pointed out, you're using 3 sets of numbers from 3 separate points. In order to get an actual count, you'd have to be consistent and use complete data sets.

Right now, the only complete data set we have is for SI December 2007s for US only (3.25m PS3s+1m standalones, 6m discs). We don't have worldwide BD standalone or disc sales for any point from SI 2007 on, we don't have European BD standalone sales for any point from SI 2007 on, we don't have reliable US BD standalone sales for any point for either SI March 2008 or SI May 2008.

In other words, all of your calculations using those three different data points plus the three different geographical coverage areas is invalid.
This is just my opinion, but I think only 20% of PS3 are actively used for movies on a weekly/biweekly basis.

If that is the case, then I think the EMA would have to re-evaluate their numbers. 12.81 million PS3 to 2.4 million movie playing PS3s is a big drop.See above.
As I said earlier, I want HDM to come through, but I am not as warm an fuzzy as many are about its future. I really like HDM my BDs are awesome but I just see the sky falling.Again, by using correct data sets and putting things in context, you'd see that the worldview you're seeing is a lot worse than what's actually happening.

I think what the OP meant was Blu-ray Players out pace Blu-ray discs.

Think about it, 12.81 million PS3sand a couple million stand-alones, compared to 9-12 million Blu-ray discs.:D:D:mad:

How many times does it need to be said:

You're using the worldwide PS3 figures with the US Blu-ray disc sales to push this agenda. US PS3 sales are 4.3m-4.5m.

This thread is stupid, like all before it of similar content. Blu-ray is not doing as well or better than DVD did at the same time. Blu-ray will not ever do as well as DVD did at any euquivalent time in its lifespan. Blu-ray fanboys, PLEASE ACCEPT THIS. DVD is a once in a lifetime event. It turned a nation of movie renters into a nation of movie buyers. Someday Blu-ray may pass DVD in current sales, and maybe if its lifespan is long enough even in volume sales (although I strongly doubt the latter and somewhat doubt the former) but it will never have the type of adoption that DVD did. Most of us here do not require a bunch of nonsense statistics that prove nothing to tell us this. We all owned DVD and now Blu-ray. We saw it with our own eyes. Spinning figures doesn't change what WE KNOW.

I think they are also overlooking one key fact. the first major DVD capable player released was not the PS2.... as was the case with the PS3 for Bluray.

And here for 2007 and HDM players. Which includes both Blu-ray and HD DVD. And by the way PS3 units. Sell through of 4.5 million units.

Digital Entertainment Group (http://www.dvdinformation.com/News/press/CES2008yearEnd.htm)



I don't get how 4.5 million somehow becomes 15 million. Plus the 4.5 million figure includes close to 1 million HD DVD players.

The PS3 is at 13.5 million units worldwide and sold 110,000 units last week (due in large part to a very popular release on the PS3, Metal Gear Solid). Not disputing the link's figures, but thats one year only so it ignores 2006 and 2008 figures.

This thread is stupid, like all before it of similar content. Blu-ray is not doing as well or better than DVD did at the same time. Blu-ray will not ever do as well as DVD did at any euquivalent time in its lifespan. Blu-ray fanboys, PLEASE ACCEPT THIS. DVD is a once in a lifetime event. It turned a nation of movie renters into a nation of movie buyers. Someday Blu-ray may pass DVD in current sales, and maybe if its lifespan is long enough even in volume sales (although I strongly doubt the latter and somewhat doubt the former) but it will never have the type of adoption that DVD did. Most of us here do not require a bunch of nonsense statistics that prove nothing to tell us this. We all owned DVD and now Blu-ray. We saw it with our own eyes. Spinning figures doesn't change what WE KNOW.

I can only say that if it did do as well as DVD then it would actually be doing MUCH MUCH better. DVD's played on 100% of all TV's out there and gave its best quality on all those sets since there was no such thing as upscalling. HDTV ready homes is somewhere around 33% +- 7%. Does anyone think that people will buy BD movie players to use on their SD sets?

This thread is stupid, like all before it of similar content. Blu-ray is not doing as well or better than DVD did at the same time. Blu-ray will not ever do as well as DVD did at any euquivalent time in its lifespan. Blu-ray fanboys, PLEASE ACCEPT THIS. DVD is a once in a lifetime event. It turned a nation of movie renters into a nation of movie buyers. Someday Blu-ray may pass DVD in current sales, and maybe if its lifespan is long enough even in volume sales (although I strongly doubt the latter and somewhat doubt the former) but it will never have the type of adoption that DVD did. Most of us here do not require a bunch of nonsense statistics that prove nothing to tell us this. We all owned DVD and now Blu-ray. We saw it with our own eyes. Spinning figures doesn't change what WE KNOW.

+1

I am really getting sick of these threads where people need to justify their purchase of BD.

I started out with HD DVD and did the same myself. I have pretty come to the conclusion that I may very well get it in the backside again.

And I am ok investing in what is still a niche product. Granted I am paying more, but it is pretty cool when I talk to people about my 94" theater screen, surround sound and bluray/hd dvd setup and at first they think I am just joking.

Its like DVD. I remember being one of the few that I knew that had DVD. Now my uncle who still uses VHS has one (he got a combo :))

If you step back and take a look at what is really happening, I think you make a great point about DVD being a phenomenom. VHS was too. And the reasons for their amazing success were not just a simple upgrade in PQ/AQ.

As much as Bluray toughts its advantages, in the end it is just an upgrade.

I can only say that if it did do as well as DVD then it would actually be doing MUCH MUCH better. DVD's played on 100% of all TV's out there and gave its best quality on all those sets since there was no such thing as upscalling. HDTV ready homes is somewhere around 33% +- 7%. Does anyone think that people will buy BD movie players to use on their SD sets?

I would imagine there are quite a few "Blu-ray players" used on SD sets. They all say Playstation 3 on the front and have never played a Blu-ray movie.

:mad:

How many times does it need to be said:

You're using the worldwide PS3 figures with the US Blu-ray disc sales to push this agenda. US PS3 sales are 4.3m-4.5m.

Thanks, so according to YOU, there are about 5.5 million players and 9 million discs. Too bad everyone didn't take advantage of the BOGO sales, because there are LESS than 2 discs sold for every BLu-ray player! Actually is worse. All those people who claim to have 50-100 discs means that 50-100 other people only bought one disc.:eek:

Of course the real point is to show just how silly you guys and this article are for claiming that every PS3 should be counted as a Blu-ray player.

:mad:

How many times does it need to be said:

You're using the worldwide PS3 figures with the US Blu-ray disc sales to push this agenda. US PS3 sales are 4.3m-4.5m.

Exactly, and if there is no demand and many are implying, then why this?

http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2008/06/12/sony-planning-47-million-blu-ray-discs-per-month-capacity-worldwide/

Sony Planning 47 Million Blu-ray Discs per Month Capacity Worldwide

Sony Planning 47 Million Blu-ray Discs per Month Capacity Worldwide
June 12, 2008 by Dave CowlcloseAuthor: Dave Cowl Name: Dave Cowl
Email: dave@formatwarcentral.com
Site: http://www.blu-raystats.com
About: Originally from New Zealand, Dave now resides in the San Francisco Bay Area. With a doctorate in Electrical Engineering, Dave's day job involves developing high resolution LCoS projectors. Dave also has a strong interest in cinema and film making, and has always been an early adopter - he still uses his Sony DVP-S7000 DVD Player and also owns first generation Blu-ray, HD DVD and DTheater D-VHS equipment. Dave has been following the HD Disc format war since the beginning, which resulted in the Blu-ray Statistics and HD DVD Statistics websites, designed to track the studio progress with features as they have released HD media product.See Authors Posts (243)
There are a few interesting tidbits in this article over at the Inside Indiana Business website.

Sony is planning to expand its Blu-ray Disc manufacturing operations in Indiana, investing over $100M and creating 85 new jobs there.

Apparently the Terre Haute, Indiana facility currently produces 425,000 Blu-ray Discs per day.

Since Blu-ray Disc manufacturing began in Terre Haute in May 2006, the company has produced more than 100 million Blu-ray Discs in its manufacturing facilities in Indiana, Austria and Japan. By October, the three facilities combined will have a manufacturing capacity of 47 million discs per month.

Remember that Blu-ray Discs are not only needed for movies, but also the Playstation 3 games which sell in much higher volumes than Blu-ray Disc movies do currently.

I think they are also overlooking one key fact. the first major DVD capable player released was not the PS2.... as was the case with the PS3 for Bluray.

At this point in time for DVD there was no PS2. DVD came out in 1997, and the PS2 was not released until late 1999, more than 2 years later. Also, if Blu failed a PS3 could still pay games and DVDs. If DVD failed, you had a doorstop.

Thanks, so according to YOU, there are about 5.5 million players and 9 million discs. Too bad everyone didn't take advantage of the BOGO sales, because there are LESS than 2 discs sold for every BLu-ray player! Actually is worse. All those people who claim to have 50-100 discs means that 50-100 other people only bought one disc.:eek:

Of course the real point is to show just how silly you guys and this article are for claiming that every PS3 should be counted as a Blu-ray player.

I could have sworn that the PS3 would play BD disc... (even if it never plays a MOVIE):rolleyes:

Exactly, and if there is no demand and many are implying, then why this?

http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2008/06/12/sony-planning-47-million-blu-ray-discs-per-month-capacity-worldwide/

Sony Planning 47 Million Blu-ray Discs per Month Capacity Worldwide

You answered your own question...

Remember that Blu-ray Discs are not only needed for movies, but also the Playstation 3 games which sell in much higher volumes than Blu-ray Disc movies do currently.

I would imagine there are quite a few "Blu-ray players" used on SD sets. They all say Playstation 3 on the front and have never played a Blu-ray movie.

Could be why I specifically said "Does anyone think that people will buy BD movie players to use on their SD sets?"

I could have sworn that the PS3 would play BD disc... (even if it never plays a MOVIE):rolleyes:

Finally some honesty. When you guys talk about Blu-ray you mean movies AND games. So Blu-ray Movie and Game players are out pacing DVD players. I see now.:D

Exactly, and if there is no demand and many are implying, then why this?

http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2008/06/12/sony-planning-47-million-blu-ray-discs-per-month-capacity-worldwide/

Sony Planning 47 Million Blu-ray Discs per Month Capacity Worldwide

Ok. so now they are going to produce 5 x as many discs in one month as they have sold in the US since 2006?


Keep drinking the koolaid

Finally some honesty. When you guys talk about Blu-ray you mean movies AND games. So Blu-ray Movie and Game players are out pacing DVD players. I see now.:D

I certainly have no problem with that since it is very true and was the silver bullet for the BD format. Hey, I store my Flac audio on DVD since it takes fewer and will move them over to BD some day soon. So I guess DVD/BD is an audio format too.

Ok. so now they are going to produce 5 x as many discs in one month as they have sold in the US since 2006?


Keep drinking the koolaidYou are aware that all PS3 games also come on Blu-ray discs as well, right?

You answered your own question...Except Singulus also had claims of large blu ray adoption.. even claiming it was faster than DVD.

There's a reason the industry is so giddy about blu ray, maybe they have a different definition of 'apples to apples' than you guys do. A valid comparison to them may be taking into account HDTV adoption and the fact that HDDVD just bowed out a few months ago. Maybe?

You logic is flawed though. You don't have the data to compare the number of people with s-video input TVs that bought DVd players. A large majority of the DVDs sold at the beginning only had s-video outs. I had to buy an RF converter for mine.

To keep it in line, you would need to compare the number of DVDs to the number of larger TVs sold from 1995-2000.Wait.. you mean it didnt have composite cables? Thats pretty hard to believe.
And what do 'larger' tvs have anything to do with being able to buy a dvd?

Exactly, and if there is no demand and many are implying, then why this?

http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2008/06/12/sony-planning-47-million-blu-ray-discs-per-month-capacity-worldwide/

Sony Planning 47 Million Blu-ray Discs per Month Capacity Worldwide


Seems odd why they would plan such a huge capacity increase when current sales of PS3 games + Blu Ray movies is nowhere near the 47M mark or will be anywhere even close to it during the time this capacity comes on line.

Perhaps it will be used to prove another useless comparison v. DVD - i.e. Blu Ray production capacity is ahead of DVD etc etc.

The plus side, we can say 85 jobs were created because of Blu Ray :)

Except Singulus also had claims of large blu ray adoption.. even claiming it was faster than DVD.

There's a reason the industry is so giddy about blu ray, maybe they have a different definition of 'apples to apples' than you guys do. A valid comparison to them may be taking into account HDTV adoption and the fact that HDDVD just bowed out a few months ago. Maybe?

The large scale adoption is based on adoption of DVD in it's second year of release, not where it is today.

Kinda like a new software company comparing themselves to the 2nd year revenue of Microsoft and extending it to show how they will achieve Microsoft-like revenue 10 years later!

The large scale adoption is based on adoption of DVD in it's second year of release, not where it is today.

Kinda like a new software company comparing themselves to the 2nd year revenue of Microsoft and extending it to show how they will achieve Microsoft-like revenue 10 years later!Wouldnt that be alot more relevant?
If you compared that software company to MS 10 years later, then any company that didnt make billions and billions their first year is a failure.
By that account DVD was a failure from 1997 to 2002, when it finally matched VHS in sales.

Wouldnt that be alot more relevant?
If you compared that software company to MS 10 years later, then any company that didnt make billions and billions their first year is a failure.
By that account DVD was a failure from 1997 to 2002, when it finally matched VHS in sales.

DVD is a success because of where it is today. Not where it was in 1997-1999. Simply put, there was nothing in the data in 1997-1999 that could have predicted where DVD would have been in 2002.

Similarly, just because Blu Ray sales in 2008 match DVD sales in 1999 does not really prove that Blu Ray in 2112 will have greater sales than what DVD had in 2002. Although this is what is being implied - that Blu Ray is as successful as DVD was at this stage and hence will be as successful as DVD turned out to be.

I like Blu Ray, but I don't agree with this messaging that seems to imply that Blu Ray is achieving DVD-like success. Not there yet. Not even close yet.

In fact, just look at the most recent statements from the CEO of Sony. Not a word about Blu Ray. Not one!!!!

http://www.star-telegram.com/465/story/724502.html

Just read it :)

"This is not your father's Sony," he said Thursday at Sony's Tokyo headquarters, outlining a strategy for growth.

Stringer vowed the company will become profitable in its TV and video game businesses during this fiscal year, which ends March 2009. He said he wants to beef up networking gadgets, making sure 90 percent of Sony Corp.'s electronics products wirelessly connect to the Net by March 2011.

Wouldnt that be alot more relevant?
If you compared that software company to MS 10 years later, then any company that didnt make billions and billions their first year is a failure.
By that account DVD was a failure from 1997 to 2002, when it finally matched VHS in sales.

DVD started in 1997 and by 1999 many titles like The Matrix and Saving Private Ryan were out selling their VHS counterparts.

Blu-ray started in 2006 and now in 2008 you see it selling up to 10% of their DVD counterparts.

What we are seeing is hype by the companies that stand to gain $ from Blu-ray sales. They will do and say anything to sell more.

DVD is a success because of where it is today. Not where it was in 1997-1999. So basically we cant say anything about Blu Rays success(or lack of) until 2012.

Someone bookmark this thread.

What we are seeing is hype by the companies that stand to gain $ from Blu-ray sales. They will do and say anything to sell more.Umm.. what does futuresource have to gain from blu ray?

DVD started in 1997 and by 1999 many titles like The Matrix and Saving Private Ryan were out selling their VHS counterparts.

Blu-ray started in 2006 and now in 2008 you see it selling up to 10% of their DVD counterparts.

What we are seeing is hype by the companies that stand to gain $ from Blu-ray sales. They will do and say anything to sell more.

There is an old sales saying. Excitement breeds activity. It is like a kid playing with a ball. No one wants it until another kid picks it up and then they all want the ball. All these companies are trying to do at this point is try to convince the public that the public is jumping into bluray when the sales point to something else.

What we are seeing is hype by the companies that stand to gain $ from Blu-ray sales. They will do and say anything to sell more.

Unlike other companies who talk down their products in order to lose money.:rolleyes:

So basically we cant say anything about Blu Rays success(or lack of) until 2012.

Someone bookmark this thread.

Umm.. what does futuresource have to gain from blu ray?

Doesn't really matter anyway. Nothing we say is gonna have any real effect on it anyway.

Must admit though that the $100 sony offer is really tempting.

I do think that they are still on the right track though. Getting the players in walmart is a big step forward. Next step is going to be to reduce costs to get entry levels models under $200. Technology has been out for for a bit now. If you can sell a vid card at a profit for $30 that can decode AVC and only really need the power of a 2.5Ghz P4 or equivalent, there should be no reason that you can't put out a player that can do it. I mean I can buy a $130 Bluray drive for my PC right now which also has profit in it.

I am not saying they it needs to be a state of the art player. These players always carry a premium... even for SD DVD. The Oppos are proof of that, but you still need to entry level model that maybe only outputs 720p/1080i for the masses.

I think one of the problems right now is that they are trying to sell Acura TLs when what the really need are base Honda Civics. Nice car that will get you to point a to point b, but doesn't include all the things that make an Acura a luxury car including the price.

I think that Samsung for $299 is a real step in the right direction.

I do think that they are still on the right track though. Getting the players in walmart is a big step forward. Next step is going to be to reduce costs to get entry levels models under $200. Technology has been out for for a bit now. If you can sell a vid card at a profit for $30 that can decode AVC and only really need the power of a 2.5Ghz P4 or equivalent, there should be no reason that you can't put out a player that can do it. I mean I can buy a $130 Bluray drive for my PC right now which also has profit in it.

I am not saying they it needs to be a state of the art player. These players always carry a premium... even for SD DVD. The Oppos are proof of that, but you still need to entry level model that maybe only outputs 720p/1080i for the masses.

I think one of the problems right now is that they are trying to sell Acura TLs when what the really need are base Honda Civics. Nice car that will get you to point a to point b, but doesn't include all the things that make an Acura a luxury car including the price.

I think that Samsung for $299 is a real step in the right direction.

But Sony and Disney came out recently pushing BD-Live. What is the point of having an entry player strategy when those players don't meet the requirements of software that will be pushed from this point forward?

I believe all players should be 2.0 from this point on. If you don't want the networking features, then don't connect the player. Where we're headed now is just ripe for increasing confusion. IF they are getting impulse purchases at Wal Mart, how many of those purchasers will be happy to find out that every Sony disc from this point forward will have features that are not supported?

It'd be wise for Blu-ray companies to put their money into stable, reasonably priced players and quality transfers rather than trying to win over the public by spinning numbers to try and say Blu-ray is outpacing DVD. If this is the right product at the right time, and if it is available at the right price, the consumer won't have to be convinced to buy in to Blu.

So basically we cant say anything about Blu Rays success(or lack of) until 2012.

Someone bookmark this thread.

Umm.. what does futuresource have to gain from blu ray?

Not exactly. We already know what the success criteria are. There are benchmarks such as 1M units sold for a title, $1B in revenue, best selling format for a given title etc etc. There are known useful metrics that you can use to show progress, not bogus comparisons that have no relevance on how things stand today.

This is nothing new. Last year the Amazon Kindle was being compared to the ipod based on ipod sales in 2001 (first year) being 375K units sold, v. appox 300-500K units sold of the Kindle (first year to first year). But we all know that no one in 2001 could have predicted that the ipod would sell 22M units in 3 months from oct to dec of last year!. So comparing Kindle to ipod is very premature. Just as it is for Blu Ray to DVD.

The war is over

Indeed it is, and thank goodness. Time for you to move on.

What we are seeing is hype by the companies that stand to gain $ from Blu-ray sales. They will do and say anything to sell more.

Oh those greedy greedy corporations! What won't they do?

I think what the OP meant was Blu-ray Players out pace Blu-ray discs.

Think about it, 12.81 million PS3sand a couple million stand-alones, compared to 9-12 million Blu-ray discs.:D:D

Worldwide PS3s only buy US disks apparently.

Funny stuff. This isn't the first time you've been told this either, and yet you continue to do it. I wonder why?

More BDA spin . . . :rolleyes:

They count a game console in the total number of "players" and compare that to only DVD players.

Well how about some facts for 1999 and DVD:

By the end of 1999, there were almost 5 million DVD-Video players in the US, and about 30 million DVD PCs.

http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/dvd-format-video/1-9-How-quickly-will-DVD-become-established.html

"Two kinds of statistics . . . those you look up and those you make up."

More BDA spin . . . :rolleyes:

They count a game console in the total number of "players" and compare that to only DVD players.

Well how about some facts for 1999 and DVD:



http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/dvd-format-video/1-9-How-quickly-will-DVD-become-established.html

"Two kinds of statistics . . . those you look up and those you make up."

You put the word players in quotes. Do you think they are trying to include hardware that doesn't play Blu-ray discs?

You also mention they are comparing all stand-alone Blu-ray players (including those with additional hardware) to "only DVD players." Given the time frame, what other stand-alone DVD player hardware are you saying they are excluding?

More BDA spin . . . :rolleyes:

They count a game console in the total number of "players" and compare that to only DVD players.

Well how about some facts for 1999 and DVD:



http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/dvd-format-video/1-9-How-quickly-will-DVD-become-established.html

"Two kinds of statistics . . . those you look up and those you make up."

Interesting article....

Here's reality:

* 1997
o 347,000 DVD-Video players shipped in the U.S.
o 900 DVD-Video titles in the U.S.
* 1998
o 906,000 DVD-Video players shipped in the U.S. 1,253,000 total
player shipments since March 1997.
o 400 DVD-Video titles in Europe (135 movie and music titles).
o 3,000 DVD-Video titles in the U.S. (2000 movie and music titles).
o 7.2 million DVD-Video discs purchased.

DVD launched on 3/25/1997. It's impressive that there were so many titles released by the end of 1997 and the end of 1998. It looks like the studios really need to step up their release of Blu-ray titles. As of today, there are 635 titles released on Blu-ray.

There are some things to understand.
"900 DVD-Video titles in the U.S."
1. Fullscreen, widescreen, and any special editions are counted as separate skus. How many BD releases are slated for this year, 350? Not that big of a difference.
2. And Im sure laserdisc paved the way for DVD as far as easy studio transfers go. BDs have alot more content on them.

Except Singulus also had claims of large blu ray adoption.. even claiming it was faster than DVD.

Didnt Singulus use data from DVDs first year and compared it to BDs second year, or something like that?

There are some things to understand.
"900 DVD-Video titles in the U.S."
1. Fullscreen, widescreen, and any special editions are counted as separate skus. How many BD releases are slated for this year, 350? Not that big of a difference.
2. And Im sure laserdisc paved the way for DVD as far as easy studio transfers go. BDs have alot more content on them.

But those 900 titles are for 1997, which was DVD's first year. You don't want to compare DVD's 2nd year to Blu-ray's to make this point. At about the same time in its life span, DVD had 3,369 titles released.

If you're interested, take a look around the MovieWeb release listings:

http://www.movieweb.com/dvd/releases/year.php?1998

There are some things to understand.
"900 DVD-Video titles in the U.S."
1. Fullscreen, widescreen, and any special editions are counted as separate skus. How many BD releases are slated for this year, 350? Not that big of a difference.
2. And Im sure laserdisc paved the way for DVD as far as easy studio transfers go. BDs have alot more content on them.

Yes but selection only plays so much. People wont buy two of the same movie in different aspect ratios. You could have the entire selection of DVD available right now on BD, and would it equate to BD outselling DVD? Probably not. the important thing to look at are new releases.

I remember seeing 1 out of 10 were bluray for new releases? Does anyone have the stat?

You people can throw all the stats and spin all the numbers anyway you want. But here is the bottom line, I only know of one person with a BD S/a and one with a PS3. Until that changes BD will be no where near DVD for a long, long time to come if ever. Those are the facts whether it's related to the economy, lack of interest or anything else. Time for some to accept that and just enjoy watching their HD set-ups and stop telling or worrying about what everyone else is doing!

You people can throw all the stats and spin all the numbers anyway you want. But here is the bottom line, I only know of one person with a BD S/a and one with a PS3. Until that changes BD will be no where near DVD for a long, long time to come if ever. Those are the facts whether it's related to the economy, lack of interest or anything else. Time for some to accept that and just enjoy watching their HD set-ups and stop telling or worrying about what everyone else is doing!

The problem is that we do all have a vested interest in it. If you have a BD player, mass adoption is the key to affordable prices and longevity of usuability.

If it wasn't for that, I think we wouldn't care.

There are some things to understand.
"900 DVD-Video titles in the U.S."
1. Fullscreen, widescreen, and any special editions are counted as separate skus. How many BD releases are slated for this year, 350? Not that big of a difference.


There really wasn't much double or triple dipping in the early years. Hell, even widescreen/fullscreen discs were rarely different skus as many of my early DVD flipper discs from Warner and New Line will show.

The early years of DVD weren't completely without some sort of struggle either. There was the whole Divx fiasco and the fact that both Paramount and Fox resolutely refused to start releasing on DVD till much later. It was late 2008 before Paramount released their first titles.

So, there were 900 titles released in 1997 even without two major studios. Even 1998 with 3,000 titles is quite the accomplishment since Paramount and Fox didn't join the party till the end of the year.

But if they call a PS3 a BD player and compare BD players to DVD SAL players - then BD wins.

They call the PS3 a BD player because it is a BD player. Unless you have some kind of evidence that the PS3 won't play BD movies now or at some future point?

They call the PS3 a BD player because it is a BD player. Unless you have some kind of evidence that the PS3 won't play BD movies now or at some future point?

LOL, well part of the reasons certain people from the HD DVD side thought HD DVD would win is they didn't want to count the PS3 as a blu-ray player. I like how that turned out for them :p

They call the PS3 a BD player because it is a BD player. Unless you have some kind of evidence that the PS3 won't play BD movies now or at some future point?

It isn't. It is a game machine that can also play blurays. Look under ebay and see which category it is listed under.

also the head under sony's own us website says "Sony PlayStation 3
Official site for the Sony PlayStation 3 game console". doesn't say player.

It couldn't even play all the advanced codecs until recently

LOL, well part of the reasons certain people from the HD DVD side thought HD DVD would win is they didn't want to count the PS3 as a blu-ray player. I like how that turned out for them :p

Format war was decided by studio support... not hardware. lets no bring this debate back... beating a dead horse with that

I love when folks attach their emotions to a multi-billion dollar company or venture that cares nothing about you or me. If they really cared about the customer, they would have never went the two format road and found ways to make the technology more affordible. We are trained from birth to pick a side of a fight that we are not in. Takes intelligence to make the leap that the WOPR made in WarGames, "Strange game.... the only winning move is not to play".

This is obviously a BDA marketing spin article.

They won't compare # of titles - BD loses

They won't compare # of discs sold and shipped - BD loses

They won't compare revenue - BD loses.

But if they call a PS3 a BD player and compare BD players to DVD SAL players - then BD wins.

So they found something that BD can compare and beat DVD . . . . . and they crow about it. . . . BFD.
Spin or no spin, at this point to get HDM to be adopted, I think any news that gets our attention(mainstream media) is good.
It gets people talking that Blu-ray is here and growing(no lie or spin :)) and people can be more confidant that it will be here tomorrow unlike HD DVD.
Do some here not want HDM to survive because of bitterness ?:confused:
Isn't it time to let go?

It seems that we should all be happy that there is one HDM format and some how get our voices heard that we would buy more discs if they would lower disc prices but it seems some will take any chance to stab blu-ray in the eye to push another agenda(propaganda) or just vent some stench of defeat that is still lingering months later.

Spin or no spin, at this point to get HDM to be adopted, I think any news that gets our attention(mainstream media) is good.
It gets people talking that Blu-ray is here and growing(no lie or spin :)) and people can be more confidant that it will be here tomorrow unlike HD DVD.
Do some here not want HDM to survive because of bitterness ?:confused:
Isn't it time to let go?

It seems that we should all be happy that there is one HDM format and some how get our voices heard that we would buy more discs if they would lower disc prices but it seems some will take any chance to stab blu-ray in the eye to push another agenda(propaganda) or just vent some stench of defeat that is still lingering months later.

I don't think it is the desire to see HDM fail. I think it is that many are getting tired of seeing the same type of revamped spin over and over posted on an AV SCIENCE forum. This isn't the pep squad you know.

I am pulling for Sony and am actually really disheartened to see them hedging their bets with PS3 downloads. As you can see by my signature, I am purple. the reason for so many more reds is that ... well got sucked into alot of fire sales (why do I still on the 40 year old virgin on HD?). Most of us here are blu, purple, or preparing to go purple when our budgets allow. Sure you still get the rare bird that really beleives there is no more detail in SD (until he actually gets a player) and those that cling to downloads (thinking that you will actually be able to download like a pirated DVD when in truth the downloads we are to see are on demand by comcast and Verizon that are overcompressed 1080i pictures or Apples poorly compressed 720 HD)

It isn't. It is a game machine that can also play blurays. Look under ebay and see which category it is listed under.

also the head under sony's own us website says "Sony PlayStation 3
Official site for the Sony PlayStation 3 game console". doesn't say player.

It couldn't even play all the advanced codecs until recently

That's a pretty bad argument considering my dedicated 3rd generation Toshiba HD DVD player still can't play all the advanced codecs. Yet my first generation PS3 does. (One of the reasons I always found it amusing that certain HD DVD finished rallied on completed specs)

I'd also be surprised if you really didn't know there are plenty of people who purchased PS3's with the primary purpose of playing blu-ray movies or only to play blu-ray movies. Did you honestly not know that?


Format war was decided by studio support... not hardware. lets no bring this debate back... beating a dead horse with that

So I'm just supposed to take your opinion and not debate it then, LOL nice

I love when folks attach their emotions to a multi-billion dollar company or venture that cares nothing about you or me. If they really cared about the customer, they would have never went the two format road and found ways to make the technology more affordible. We are trained from birth to pick a side of a fight that we are not in. Takes intelligence to make the leap that the WOPR made in WarGames, "Strange game.... the only winning move is not to play".

War Games is a great movie :D

That's a pretty bad argument considering my dedicated 3rd generation Toshiba HD DVD player still can't play all the advanced codecs. Yet my first generation PS3 does.


War Games is a great movie :D

Just curious. What is the difference?

Spin or no spin, at this point to get HDM to be adopted, I think any news that gets our attention(mainstream media) is good...

I have said this from day one. The format war was actually a great thing because it got the word out that there was such a thing as HDM. There were new stories almost daily that we were bombarded with.

Now that the war is over, out of sight-out of mind. You never see stories about HDM in the main stream media anymore (except that Blu-ray raised prices-which made a great story and was even on my local news), and so the BDA and others are going to do and announce anything they can to drum up media hype. If they want this to work, they need to do what they can to remind people that there is such a thing as Blu-ray, and find reasons for people to spend extra on it over the more established format DVD.

This is why you see ridiculous statements like, "Blu-ray outpacing DVD", and "Blu-ray to replace DVD by 20xx". These are businesses try to recoup billions of loses, and what we are seeing is called marketing.

That's a pretty bad argument considering my dedicated 3rd generation Toshiba HD DVD player still can't play all the advanced codecs. Yet my first generation PS3 does.

..and you paid $499 or $599 for that PS3 and maybe $198 for the HD DVD player? How many new Blu-ray players still can't play ALL the advanced codecs? The $400 Sony BDP-S300 can't.:eek:

2008 models for $400 and they skimp on advanced codecs! What a rip off. Even the cheapest HD DVD player included Dolby True-HD...but no so with $400 Blu-ray players.

I'd also be surprised if you really didn't know there are plenty of people who purchased PS3's with the primary purpose of playing blu-ray movies or only to play blu-ray movies. Did you honestly not know that?


I think everyone agrees that a good number of PS3s are used to play Bluray. the contention is what %. I think if you look at Bluray sales versus PS3s + SAs, it reveals a much lower number than what many "analysts" factor on when promoting Bluray adoption.

The truth is there is no right or wrong answer as there is no real way of knowing. But at a 1:1 or 2:1 depending on how you juggle numbers ratio of disc sales to total bluray "players" indicates that a good deal of these units are not amasses much of a library (depending on which post you consider credible in this thread). When you factor in that BR players that are SAs will most likely have a higher % of disc ownership, this almost relegates the the number of PS3s to a fraction being used for consistent movie playback. How many folks on here have collections of 50-100? There are alot... and alot not on here. Remember that for every on of those that have 100, that means that there would be about 50-100 without any movies.

What % do you think of PS3 actively play movies (and I don't mean have played 2-3 movies in 1 year to "test it out")?

My number is just a guess like anyone elses. I would say 20% and I think I am being generous.



So I'm just supposed to take your opinion and not debate it then, LOL nice

:D


you brought it up. I am just saying it is not worth rehashing at this point.

Just curious. What is the difference?

PS3 handles DTS-MA, My HD-A3 does not. Video side 1080p24p on my PS3, no 1080p or 24p on my HD-A3.

:rolleyes:More BDA spin . . . :rolleyes:

They count a game console in the total number of "players" and compare that to only DVD players.

Well how about some facts for 1999 and DVD:


By the end of 1999, there were almost 5 million DVD-Video players in the US, and about 30 million DVD PCs.


http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/dvd-format-video/1-9-How-quickly-will-DVD-become-established.html

"Two kinds of statistics . . . those you look up and those you make up."

Why the mention of 30 million DVD PCs since they were not stand alone DVD players. You count them as DVD movie devices in PC's, but you can't count the PS3 as a BD player?

..and you paid $499 or $599 for that PS3 and maybe $198 for the HD DVD player? How many new Blu-ray players still can't play ALL the advanced codecs? The $400 Sony BDP-S300 can't.:eek:

2008 models for $400 and they skimp on advanced codecs! What a rip off. Even the cheapest HD DVD player included Dolby True-HD...but no so with $400 Blu-ray players.

Price has nothing to do with the point.

Though I did $499 for my PS3. And people were paying that price for HD DVD players with less functionality. I of course didn't, I bought 3 HD DVD players on inventory clearane sale $99 with 9-10 freebies ;) Oh and then 3 $50 giftcards from Best Buy for my troubles, lol :D

That's a pretty bad argument considering my dedicated 3rd generation Toshiba HD DVD player still can't play all the advanced codecs. Yet my first generation PS3 does. (One of the reasons I always found it amusing that certain HD DVD finished rallied on completed specs)
:D

the point that I was making is obviously the capability was there, but they didn't feel it was necessary.... why would that be? :rolleyes: Maybe because they still viewed it as a gaming machine first and a player second... or third?

Price has nothing to do with the point.

Though I did $499 for my PS3. And people were paying that price for HD DVD players with less functionality. I of course didn't, I bought 3 HD DVD players on inventory clearane sale $99 with 9-10 freebies ;) Oh and then 3 $50 giftcards from Best Buy for my troubles, lol :D

And every $99 HD DVD came with a Dolby TrueHD decoder...unlike some of the brand new $400+ Blu-ray players. Wow, they are ripping people off.:D

the point that I was making is obviously the capability was there, but they didn't feel it was necessary.... why would that be? :rolleyes: Maybe because they still viewed it as a gaming machine first and a player second... or third?

As for why it didn't come fully loaded with DTS-MA from day one, you'll have to ask Sony. Many of these players on both sides have had firmware updates. Point is pointing out that it can't play all the codecs as a talking point as to why it isn't a blu-ray player simply doesn't make sense considering dedicated players still don't do that. Unless you of course don't consider the HD A3 to be a HD DVD player, do you?

And every $99 HD DVD came with a Dolby TrueHD decoder...unlike some of the brand new $400+ Blu-ray players. Wow, they are ripping people off.:D

Agreed, a lot of the stand alones were way too expensive on both sides. Hence why I waited for a great deal.

It isn't.
Yes it is. It is probably the best and smartest Blu-ray player on the market today. Many people on this forum have purchased it specifically for that purpose.

It is a game machine that can also play blurays.

Playing the semantics game is a bit hackneyed at this point, isn't it?

Look under ebay and see which category it is listed under.

I see Ebay's classification system has become the final word around these parts. Just for fun, here is where you will find the HD-A3 on ebay.
Consumer Electronics > DVD & Home Theater > DVD Players

I guess that makes it a "DVD Player that can also play HD DVDs?"

also the head under sony's own us website says "Sony PlayStation 3
Official site for the Sony PlayStation 3 game console". doesn't say player.

Sony called the PS2 a "computer" when it was sold in Europe for a long time. I guess that makes it a "computer" and not a game system too, eh?

It couldn't even play all the advanced codecs until recently
Irrelevant. Early DVD players couldn't and still can't play DTS audio, but I'm guessing you still count those.

And every $99 HD DVD came with a Dolby TrueHD decoder...unlike some of the brand new $400+ Blu-ray players. Wow, they are ripping people off.:D

And every add-on came with a decoder, but strangely that decoded audio had nowhere to go. If an audio stream is decoded in a console and there is no way to output it...does it make a sound?

Havnt we gotten away from the topic now?

Yes it is. It is probably the best and smartest Blu-ray player on the market today. Many people on this forum have purchased it specifically for that purpose.


Playing the semantics game is a bit hackneyed at this point, isn't it?

I see Ebay's classification system has become the final word around these parts. Just for fun, here is where you will find the HD-A3 on ebay.
Consumer Electronics > DVD & Home Theater > DVD Players

I guess that makes it a "DVD Player that can also play HD DVDs?"

Sony called the PS2 a "computer" when it was sold in Europe for a long time. I guess that makes it a "computer" and not a game system too, eh?

Irrelevant. Early DVD players couldn't and still can't play DTS audio, but I'm guessing you still count those.

Excellent post

Irrelevant. Early DVD players couldn't and still can't play DTS audio, but I'm guessing you still count those.

...and many of the latest pricey Blu-ray players still can't play DTS-HD (an True-HD, etc.). Let's not count them too!:D

as for:
Many people on this forum have purchased it (PS3) specifically for that purpose.

I am willing to bet that over 50% of PS3 owners have never watch a Blu-ray movie. Any takers?

It isn't. It is a game machine that can also play blurays. Look under ebay and see which category it is listed under.

also the head under sony's own us website says "Sony PlayStation 3
Official site for the Sony PlayStation 3 game console". doesn't say player.

It couldn't even play all the advanced codecs until recently

So how many HD-DVD players were sold? If they didn't decode all audio codecs by your rules, you can't count them. How many models decoded MA? In my case I use my PS3 for games and Movies with movies leading 10:1 but for many here on AVS its 100:0

So why hasn't BD sold like DVD? Here are my reasons.
1. DVD players worked on 100% of TV's
BD works on ~30% of TV's and works as intended on somewhat less due to low def HD (720p)
2. Only competion to DVD was tape with all its drawbacks (be kind, please rewind). Laser was way overpriced and out of my budget, even if I did pay $700.00 for my first DVD player.
BD competes with other abet sub par formats including

DirectTV
Dish Network
Apple download
Other downloads
Cable networks
DVD

3. Uncertainty in the eyes of the public and the industry due to competing formats. I guess thats why we are now seeing such large investments in equipment. Since most people here that talk about numbers of titles know full well that BD was booked up close to capacity through the end of the year. It's just good to see the BDA opening production slots up for some upcomming Paramount and Universal titles.

btw, how long 'til we see the Blu-ray outpacing Television, Phonograph, and Printing press adoption articles?

The printing press is probably the greatest technology advancement in the history of mankind, and now Blu-ray adoption is outpacing it.:D

(Yes, these articles, like the one in the OP, are just silly and really just advertising hype comparing apples to oranges).

...and many of the latest pricey Blu-ray players still can't play DTS-HD (an True-HD, etc.). Let's not count them too!:D


An excellent point! Though I'm in favor of counting all Blu-ray and DVD players, without qualification by their audio codecs. You will need to take it up with bjmarchini.


I am willing to bet that over 50% of PS3 owners have never watch a Blu-ray movie. Any takers?

Lets go one better: What percentage are you willing to bet on for PS3 owners who will never watch a Blu-ray movie? How many have done it doesn't matter much if tomorrow they buy an HDTV and start watching discs like an AV Enthusiast.

Ok. so now they are going to produce 5 x as many discs in one month as they have sold in the US since 2006?


Keep drinking the koolaid

How did DVD go from selling 380,000 year one to 5,000,000 year two - OH someone decided to have the production capacity to churn out more disks per month than they had sold the entire first year....

Does anyone recall all the chatter the first of the year where everone was talking about how BD capacity for 2008 was booked solid?

...



Lets go one better: What percentage are you willing to bet on for PS3 owners who will never watch a Blu-ray movie? How many have done it doesn't matter much if tomorrow they buy an HDTV and start watching discs like an AV Enthusiast.

Most of them are renting discs. Movie studio's want to sell discs.

An attach rate still hovering around 1 after two years of inception is very poor.

For every disc in your blu ray collection there is a ps3 owner who didn't bought a blu ray movie disc at all.

Even the dead format is still having a higher attach rate. :rolleyes:

thank you