Hail great theater gurus of the AVS Forum!

I have a small 10' x 10 2/3' foot room that I plan to convert to a modest home theater, but two uneven walls and an irregular ceiling gives me pause. I seek your suggestions.

http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Spare%20Room%20east%20wall_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Spare%20Room%20east%20wall.jpg)
http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Spare%20Room%201_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Spare%20Room%20ISO%201.jpg)http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Spare%20Room%202_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Spare%20Room%20ISO%202.jpg)


The Situation:

1) The north and east walls are indented into the room for the bottom 32" by about 8.25". I believe it was put in to cover the cement foundation of the house as the room is slightly sunk. The result is the 10' x 10 2/3' room has 112" x 119" of floorspace.

2) The ceiling drops almost a foot to form a 42" soffit above the south wall. This is to accommodate ductwork for the room upstairs.


Obvious Solution #1:

http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Spare%20Room%20south%20setup_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Spare%20Room%20south%20setup.jpg)

Put the screen on the south wall next to the door and put seating up against the north wall indentation.

Advantages -
Easy to set-up if the display is a TV.

Disadvantages -
Viewing distance is a bit long for 1080p that would fit the wall (42" TV, 8' distance)
The door is in the audience field of view
Setup is off-center. Possible sound problems?
Space above shelf is pretty much useless


Obvious Solution #2:

http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Spare%20Room%20east%20setup_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Spare%20Room%20east%20setup.jpg)

Put the screen centered on the east wall above the shelf. Seating is centered to the screen and moved forward to allow the door to open.

Advantages -
Easy to set-up if the display is a projector.
The east wall can handle a larger screen.

Disadvantages -
Not much room to get around the seats to sit (my 90" couch leaves 15")
No good location for right-rear speaker
TV is on an interior/exterior wall. Not enough room for embedded speakers?


Details:

Click on any of the above pictures for a larger version. Dimensions of the room are available here (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Spare%20Room%20Dimensions.jpg). You can download the sketch-up file to make these renderings here (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Spare%20Room.skp).

My goal here is a room with good entertainment value (I'll pay twice as much for double the enjoyment). I expect this project will require holes in the drywall. I'll entertain ideas about serious cosmetic room changes. I will probably be unwilling to do any reframing work.

I expect to use the room about ten hours a week. Normal viewing will be SD TV and movies moving to HD has the technology matures. I have 20/15 vision. I do not consider myself an audio or videophile.

Suggestions regarding lighting, rear speaker placement and acoustical treatments are very welcome.

Thanks for any help you can offer and for the forum from which I have learned much.

bkelly

Tough space.

I prefer the eastwall location for the display.

Could the door be rehung to swing out? Is the couch replaceable? Maybe check out condo sized couches?

The closet, with doors removed, is a natural to hide the subwoofer and house the av gear.

As for lighting, something a pair of in-ceiling spots over the seating and two more over the screen, with a pair of sconces or even perhaps a pair of modern pendant swag lighting with a Lutron Grafic Eye 3103 would add greatly to the room.

When the TV is on the east wall, that's the closet behind the seating right? At first I thought it was the door.

I'd use that layout too. I'd use Tedd's suggestion and have the door to the room open the other direction (out of the room). I'd also place the sub in the closet and build a shelf unit that is in the top half of the closet. You could move the couch all the way against the back wall (and the side wall - in the corner) if you wanted (or even use a little sectional there) and still have access to the equipment right behind you (that would be higher than the couch).

As for your speakers, just put it above the door and angle it toward the seats (can mirror the other side). Not ideal, but it'll be fine.

That is exactly how I envisioned the closet being used. :)

But then I was thinking if you rehang the door to open outward and center the couch in the room, the av rack could go in the closet in the corner (and be full height if desired) and have easy access. I'd build a frame to fit the closet opening and cover in GOM. The rest of the closet would hide the subwoofer and maybe even a DIY bass trap. If you continued the GOM across the back wall to the door, then you'd have a flat wall and a square room.

I think I'd be tempted to do inwall surrounds, or in ceiling surrounds. Is that a shelf around the room? If so, it could even get a lip and be used to hide the front three speaker wires on it's underside.

If the projector has offset lense capability, and needs additional throw room, it could end up housed in the closet too.

The window could be covered by a hinged framework and do double duty as an acoustical panel, mirrored on the other wall.

I'd use bookshelf speakers up front and make some nice wood stands to angle them to fire upwards. (Totem Arros would be an interesting small tower speaker to use, as they work extremely well close to a wall and throw up a wall of sound.)

I guess the question is how far do you want to go and how much do you want to spend?

A water heater style sub might also work in the closet. The curved side could act as a difuser perhaps?

But then I was thinking if you rehang the door to open outward and center the couch in the room,

The only reason I wouldn't do that is because the couch is 90" and the room is only 120". If you centered the couch, you'd only have about 15" on each side. The couch would be right there as soon as you enter and really not enough space to get around it and access the equipment anyway. For that reason, I'd just shove it all the way into the corner and allow for a 30" space when you enter.

That's it then.... The couch simply HAS to go! ;)

Or simply do the rack space above the couch, and keep the couch off the back wall. 15" might just be enough to turn sideways in, as the couch only occupies lower space. It be worth the time to mock it up and give it a try and it doesn't cost anything.

Maybe the rack could be attached to the ceiling and side wall of the closet?

A full height rack could house a htpc in a tower case in that 15" of available width.

What's the av gear?

Tedd and Stew4msu, thank you very much for the feedback. Already you've given me more to think about than the three home theater "specialists" I had over to look at the room.

I prefer the eastwall location for the display.
I'd use that layout too.

Is better sound and the ability to move the seating further back the primary motivation for your choice?

Could the door be rehung to swing out?

I don't see why not, however the door jam is 4.5" and the door itself is 1.5 so it would be sunk 3" into the frame. I modified the sketch-up file to show this done. Have a look at the picture below or download this new version here (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/bkelly1984_RehungDoor.skp).

http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/RehungDoor_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/RehungDoor.jpg)

I'm guessing one of the reasons you're suggesting rehanging the door is so seating can be moved further back. I understand that moving the seats back and growing the screen to maintain viewing angle gives the off-center seats a view more perpendicular to the screen. Are there any other reasons for moving seats back?

Is the couch replaceable? Maybe check out condo sized couches?

Yes, I have a loveseat that I can exchange it with, although I'd like to keep a hot seat since I'll mostly be using the room alone. I'm not opposed to replacing my furniture with quality theater seating should the couch/loveseat just not work.

The closet, with doors removed, is a natural to hide the subwoofer and house the av gear.

I had not even considered putting the subwoofer in the closet. So you do not think it would have problems permeating the room? Hmm, interesting.

As for lighting...

You have some great ideas, but alas all my time has gone into researching your other suggestions. I hope to return to these.

I'd use Tedd's suggestion and have the door to the room open the other direction (out of the room). I'd also place the sub in the closet and build a shelf unit that is in the top half of the closet.

Thanks for the details, Stew4msu. I modified the sketch-up file to include a combination of yours and Tedd's suggestions. Here's an image of the closet with a projector, a half-height shelf and the subwoofer with GOM below it, first without any seating and then with my loveseat in front of it.

http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Closet_NoCouch_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Closet_NoCouch.jpg)
http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Closet_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Closet.jpg)

Of course, things would be prettied up, hidden and the wooden frame for the GOM wouldn't show (and the frame is not supporting the shelf!). What do you think?

Several questions I have (and talking like Yoda I do) -

1) Is this what you two were thinking?
2) Is the subwoofer going to get muffled by the couch/loveseat?
3) What's the best way to support the shelves without enclosing the sub? Perhaps just a 2x4 running to the floor?

As for your speakers, just put it above the door and angle it toward the seats (can mirror the other side). Not ideal, but it'll be fine.

I'm not sure I understand. Because the roof drops over the south wall I have no room over the door. If the seating is back against the wall, I think the best place for the surround speakers is where I put them in the images above. (I just hope nobody smacks the right one with his head when he walks in.) Did you have a different suggestion?

If you continued the GOM across the back wall to the door, then you'd have a flat wall and a square room.

This statement concerns me. The room isn't exactly square but 6" longer in one direction which is about 5%. Is that not a large enough difference to prevent resonance of similar frequencies in different axises?

I think I'd be tempted to do inwall surrounds, or in ceiling surrounds.

In-ceiling surrounds would be tricky as one side is a foot lower than the other. In-wall might be possible. One of the specialists I spoke to said in-wall speakers are difficult in a wall that borders the exterior of the house. He said there just isn't much room due to the extra insulation. Know if there is any truth to this?

If the projector has offset lense capability, and needs additional throw room, it could end up housed in the closet too.

FYI, I haven't decided on a projector and had been thinking plasma until recently. A projector is quite possible since I will have complete light control but I can't use their real advantage - extra-large screen.

Other than the technology specific issues (burn-in, DLP rainbow, price, where the wires need to go) does my specific application suggest one over the other?

The window could be covered by a hinged framework and do double duty as an acoustical panel, mirrored on the other wall.

I'm already working on a frame 3" deep to block the window and be a base trap. It seems a bit big to hinge and I don't mind if the window is constantly blocked.

http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/WindowCover_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/WindowCover.jpg)

I'd use bookshelf speakers up front and make some nice wood stands to angle them to fire upwards.

*nods* You're speaking of putting the mains below the shelf line running on the north and east walls and aiming them up to the ears of the audience, correct?

I guess the question is how far do you want to go and how much do you want to spend?

The impressive theaters detailed in this forum are way too much for me. On the other hand, I'd like a little more than slapping up a TV and speakers.

I've been telling the contractors that my high end budget only for room aesthetics is $4000 but that number isn't set in stone if I can get good enjoyment value for my money.

A water heater style sub might also work in the closet. The curved side could act as a difuser perhaps?

Not sure I follow here. Are you concerned that the subwoofer in the closet would have reflection problems in such an enclosed space? Is this the reason you suggested putting bass traps in the closet as well?

The only reason I wouldn't do that is because the couch is 90" and the room is only 120". If you centered the couch, you'd only have about 15" on each side. *snip* For that reason, I'd just shove it all the way into the corner and allow for a 30" space when you enter.

And not even that because of the of the 8.25" shelf. If you center the couch to the upper portion of the room you get 15" on one side and 6.75" on the other. Pushing the couch to one side gives you almost 22" of clearance on the other.

Or simply do the rack space above the couch, and keep the couch off the back wall. 15" might just be enough to turn sideways in, as the couch only occupies lower space. It be worth the time to mock it up and give it a try and it doesn't cost anything.

You're suggesting that the couch be kept off the back wall so you're not trying maneuver around it and the doorway at the same time, right? I'm sure I can get around it with 15" but I'll move it around and see how bad it really is.

That's it then.... The couch simply HAS to go! ;)

All right, if I had no couch or loveseat, what would you recommend?

What's the av gear?

*grin* Unless you're thinking I should incorporate my 20 year old 19" Toshiba...

None. I'm starting from scratch.

bkelly

working backwards...

A shorter couch perhaps. Or two theater seats. I was looking for some more open width but wasn't aware of just how many people you planned to seat.

I don't want the seating butting right up against the rear wall as bass could be boomy there. Not as a passageway, but in a small space a little flexibility is necessary.

I'd say that's a healthy budget for a small room.

The 15" width was if the couch was a keeper and if you needed a larger taller av rack. The suggestions were just thrown out as possibilities as I didn't have that information. With the shelf eating up 7" of width, I'd lean towards new seating.

I'm not so concerned about a sub in the closet if the front wall is acoustically transparent. It'd be much like subs behind AT screens. As for a bass trap in the closet, there's room if needed and it'd be out of sight. Just getting good mileage out of the closet. The closet also could allow you to fit in a bigger sub if desired, like a cylindrical subwoofer. DIY or SVS. Basically a BIG subwoofer with a small footprint and not taking up any visual space in the room. The couch might absorb a little energy but that might not be a bad thing.

Bookshelf speakers with a little bit of air space, aimed to fire upwards. Or small towers if they aren't forced into the corners.

As for the window, I was thinking hinged panel to have access to the window. It'd be light blocking, and be an absorber panel. I was more thinking oversized then fitted in the window opening. Gives you a little design flexibility as you aren't tied into the window size.

A big screen or a pj? Either. :) DLP does has an advantage for no burn in. Wiring actually might work out better for a pj with shorter cable run, with the rack at the back. However that shelf makes for a nice cable route. It appears the shelf is a cap with the walls offset. I am thinking of building a channel attached above it for running wiring from the av rack to the front speakers and tv. Basically you end up with a shelf two iches thicker/higher but 100% hidden cables.


As for surround speakers, you could do a little drywall work and match the drop ceiling on the other side of the room. I'd do a tiny bit of exploring to see if there's room for a in ceiling speaker up there, in the existing section with the ductwork. before building a matching soffit though. Or how about some dipoles on the side walls mounted high?

The GOM is acoustically transparent. The width and the length at about 5% are tight, but that's the space you have to work with. I should have used "squared up visually". Acoustic-wise the volume of the closet is still part of the room.

As for the rack, it could be as simple as a 2x4" or 2x6" running vertically from the floor to closet ceiling. Then use some Middle Atlantic rails or even do a "Larry Fine" type rack (search the archives). There's a pretty good thread called "Show Me your Rack" with a multitude of rack ideas.

As for the new closet renders, I am thinking the av rack at the other end of the closet and a bigger taller sub. Visually, the back wall would be a flat wall of Guilford of Maine cloth, side wall to side wall (or even speaker cloth) with just the rack being open and a projector bay up top. It would visually square up the room. If done in panels, one panel could be hinged for access to the sub and rear of the av rack for cabling. The closet would also hide most of the ht related wiring. An extra nice bonus.

And you have a couple of PMs too.

Some ideas here

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=996973&highlight=small

Victor

Looking good. Tedd addressed most of your questions, so I'll just throw in a couple of random thoughts:

1. I'd also put the equipment rack on the other side of the closet.
2. Rear speakers in a 5.1 set-up should be on the side walls facing each other, not on the rear walls. That being said, we all have to make compromises. I have them on the rear wall in my living room and they still sound pretty good. If you don't have a way to put them on the sides, you have to do what you have to do.
3. As Todd mentioned, for optimum sound the seating should not be against the rear wall. That being said, again we all have to make compromises. In a room that size, it's a compromise I'd probably make. The second row of seating in my HT is pretty much up against the rear wall and I can't tell the difference in sound whether I'm sitting in the rear or the front.
4. I don't suppose you could move the door altogether eh? If you were to put it toward the front of the room, it would make things a lot easier.
5. You have lots of options with front speakers. I think you could have bookshelves basically sitting on the little shelf firing straight ahead (all 3 speakers), and you'd be fine.
6. As for the rack, there's millions of options. Find the studs and screw some 2X4's on the three interior walls (leveled). Place a piece of plywood on top and there's your shelf. Just add some 2X4 legs at the edges and center to support it. Do the same thing another 3 feet up. That's the shelf for the projector. The equipment will all go between the 2. You could even divide the middle area into thirds and make a GOM covered door frame for the first third. Behind that could be your equipment. When looking at the back wall, it would just look like a GOM covered wall up to the height of the projector. No equipment would be visible. Open the door and the equipment would be behind it. Of course, you'd want to figure out the height needed for the PJ and all that first.

Todd and Stew4msu for your feedback. You both are giving me a much better idea of what I want to do with this room.

From your replies, it seems to me that there isn't much dilemma of what needs to be done if the picture is on the east wall and I'm not doing significant renovations to the room. Below is a render showing screen, speaker, equipment and furniture placement. You can also look at the new SketchUp file here (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Render%202.skp).

Note: I have yet to do serious speaker research so these images show general placement using stock SketchUp components and will be modified. The back wall needs more work, like doors to access the equipment and extra space. This render also doesn't include a few things I have in mind to improve the room's atmosphere.

http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Render2%20Front_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Render2%20Front.jpg)http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Render2%20Back_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Render2%20Back.jpg)

Possible changes:
Drop the left side of the ceiling to match the right and change the surround speakers to ceiling mount.
Use smaller speakers for the fronts and place them on the front wall shelf.
Add bass absorption to the lower portions of the closet walls.

I think this configuration is an optimum compromise with my constraints. Does anyone see anything that's a serious concern?

bkelly

Center the couch. You really want to keep your ears away from wall boundries. Tough to do in a small room but worth a serious attempt to accomplish.

A small set of dipoles might work best in your room.

The front shelf might benefit with a black velvet runner on it. A glossy finish might light up, and be distracting.

You mean we can move the door? (I like it!) and here I thought I was pushing it suggesting to rehang the door. :D

I concur.

Center the couch. You really want to keep your ears away from wall boundries. Tough to do in a small room but worth a serious attempt to accomplish.

It is for this reason that the loveseat is off-center- the right seat is centered to the room because I'm an audience of one. Of course, when I have company, I move the couch more to the center.

A small set of dipoles might work best in your room.

I had planed to research them for the surrounds. Are you suggesting them for the fronts as well?

The front shelf might benefit with a black velvet runner on it. A glossy finish might light up, and be distracting.

Another good idea. I also liked your suggestion of using the shelf to run cables, even if they must be raised a couple of inches to do so.

You mean we can move the door? (I like it!) and here I thought I was pushing it suggesting to rehang the door. :D

The door can't reasonably be moved. There is a shower and a washing machine on the other side of the south wall. On the other side of the west wall is the water heater.

On rehanging the door, I don't see a benefit. If it's better for the couch to be off the back wall a little, then I think it would be better to move it forward several feet. This gives me easier access to the equipment in back, a reasonable place to hang surround speakers, room for the subwoofer to get around the loveseat and the need for a smaller screen.

When moved forward, the seating doesn't interfere with the door so why rehang it?

bkelly

Moving the couch is ok. Rehanging the door was/is for traffic flow and the seating near the rear wall. If you are going with a tv/smaller screen, then I think things are fine. I do question how tiresome moving the couch will become, but the door can always be rehung down the road if this proves to be bothersome.

I'm not recommending dipoles for the front. Don't they need some breathing space? I wouldn't hesitate to mix speaker manufacturers for the surrounds. I've heard QS4s with PMC TB1s and with Totem Model 1s.

Exposed wiring detracts from a room. That shelf is just so easy to use for wiring.

I think at this point, the toughest decision is speakers that work well mounted close to a wall.

I do question how tiresome moving the couch will become...

*smile* I think you overestimate my popularity.

...or does one suddenly generate friends after building one of these?

I think at this point, the toughest decision is speakers that work well mounted close to a wall.

That and I need to work with my friend who's offering interior decorating expertise.

For now, I'm off to the speaker forum.

bkelly

I spoke to my friend for interior decorating help and her main advice echoed Tedd's and Stew4msu's - the room is terrible for a home theater. Instead, she recommended moving my computers into this one and using the current computer room for the theater.

Despite my obstinateness, I must admit that she's right.

So I'm back with a rendering of my computer room. It still has the shelf on two walls but it's slightly bigger, has less ceiling interference and puts the door on the same wall as the closet. You can download the SketchUp file here (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room.skp).

http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room%20SW%20iso_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room%20SW%20iso.jpg)http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room%20NE%20iso_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room%20NE%20iso.jpg)
http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room%20W%20view_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room%20W%20view.jpg)http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room%20Dimensions_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room%20Dimensions.jpg)

Since this room has a complete, undisturbed wall, I think it is the obvious choice for the screen. If the seating then goes up against the other wall, viewing distance becomes 9.5 feet requiring a 74" screen to meet the THX recommended viewing angle. That would require a projector. Here's the room setup that follows.

http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room%20Setup_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room%20Setup.jpg)

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your thoughts.

bkelly

Here's the room setup that follows.

Okay, so I forgot a small detail like a window and so the projector is now floating in mid-air.

http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room%20Layout%202_small.jpg (http://www.bkelly1984.com/pics/avsforum/Computer%20Room%20Layout%202.jpg)

The above SketchUp link has been updated.

bkelly1984