With the Mits 5500 coming on market momentarily at a $2,500MSRP, and the Sony VPL-VW10 rumored to be MSRP lower than that, are we finally looking at the 1080P price war that drives 1080 toward 720 (and 720 out of the market?)

For two generations the 1080p projectors have stayed consistently above 2k with a couple of exceptions on rebates for the second tier projectors, and the popular 2-3k projectors were all >3k msrp (prompting much forum splitting.) Now we are looking at high end features (the 5500) and LCOS (Sony) MSRP'ing at $2,500 or less so what do Panasonic and Sanyo, the traditional value end leaders, Optoma and Benq, the competitors, or Epson, which prides itself as the performance leader, do to compete? If quality 1080p drops to the 1.5k range does that leave room in the market for quality 720p? or even value priced (ie. $800) 720? It seems after 18 months of stasis the market may be in for some big upheaval.

Coming? It's already here. Prices are dropping rapidly and overall quality at the lower end is improving. Someone will offer a 1080p projector for $999 on Black Friday and you'll consistently see some thousand dollar projectors sometime in 2009. They'll be low-end consumer quality projectors but they will be 1080p. Will they be as good as the best 720p projectors? Probably not. But in the consumer retail arena, it's all about easily digestible facts. And for hight def, 1080p is the important one. (at least in the eyes of the average consumer)

Jim

1080p at $999 on black friday:eek:

Unless someone has a stripper model ready to roll out (and has done a hell of a job keeping secrets) you have to mean on of the existing pjs - that sounds like a hell of a drop as even the serious deal on the hc4900 is no longer available - and the HC4900 will likely leave the market with the HC5500 out. From your keyboard to gods ears.

The Sony is the VPL-HW10
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1001482
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=el&u=http://www.fullhd.gr/blog/2008/05/22/sony-bravia-vpl-hw10-buy-buy-lcd/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=10&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2BSony%2BVPL-HW10%2B%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

1080p at $999 on black friday

Unless someone has a stripper model ready to roll out (and has done a hell of a job keeping secrets) you have to mean on of the existing pjs - that sounds like a hell of a drop as even the serious deal on the hc4900 is no longer available - and the HC4900 will likely leave the market with the HC5500 out. From your keyboard to gods ears.

The best Black Friday deals are generally half the price of going retail, although I concede deals were not as good last year as in years past. For BF '06, the Optoma Movietime was offered at $449. The going price at the time was $900-1000. Last year, Optoma had a couple of projector listed at under $400. While most of the best priced projectors last year were data projectors, it wouldn't surprise me to see a 1080p projector at $999, although very low priced 720p projector is probably more likely. Projectors are rapidly entering the mainstream and that means companies want to get their names into people's heads. Black Friday is a good way to do it.

Jim

InFocus X10 DLP (DC1) debuted @ $2300. I'm a bit surprised this one hasn't generated more chatter yet.

Black Friday? I'm sure it's probably a dumb question, and I appologize for the ignorance, but I've never heard that term before. It sounds like a great day to look for a deal.. so what day exactly is that?

Not from around these parts? ;) It's the (Fri)day after Thanksgiving ... the traditional kickoff of the Holiday shopping orgy ... er ... season.

I expect electronics to depreciate at 5% per month. 1080p for $999 on Black Friday would be a good bet. I'd expect $999 to be the street price of 1080p in Feb 2009.

Bob,

Paris, Santiago, Buenos Aries, Melborne, etc, etc, etc. Is there anywhere you're not from?

Jim (BUF, CMX during college)

I for one am not interested in garbage 1080p projector for as low as $999.

My wish is that the Epson TW3000, Panny AE3000, Mits HC7000 and Sanyo Z3000 (all should be introduced in a few weeks at Cedia 2008) be priced around $2000. This will be amazing progress.

I'm not interested in buying an entry-level stripper 1080p projector either, but I welcome any market forces and mass-adoption of the technology that can make mid- to high-level projectors more affordable, more reliable, and more capable.

In 10 or 15 years, we'll all be awaiting the latest 2160p or whatever projector that can project a 20 foot image in broad daylight, wondering what all the fuss about 1080p on a 12ft screen in a batcave was about.

I'm really looking forward to this year's new models. I am still taking time to plan and organize my HT projection room, so I can wait to see what there is to offer, and see where Black Friday takes prices.

shinksma

I expect electronics to depreciate at 5% per month. 1080p for $999 on Black Friday would be a good bet. I'd expect $999 to be the street price of 1080p in Feb 2009.

That had been a long term trend in the past but for the most part, except for units that didn't quite clear the performance bar, 1080p pricing has stagnated since the introduction of the ae2000 and epson1080 - heck in the case of the epson the street prices actually have gone up over time, with added features of course, but we're used to added features coming along with falling prices, not reversing them.

Also - when should we expect dagamepimp showing up to tell us how cheaper 1080p is inherently worse than expensive 1080p? :rolleyes: (certainly the hc5500 would refute that) The point of this thread is not stripper models at 999 - it's where the new updated 1080p will be forced to with high quality pjs like the Mits and the Sony coming in below the pricing of the panasonic and epson.

I for one am not interested in garbage 1080p projector for as low as $999.

My wish is that the Epson TW3000, Panny AE3000, Mits HC7000 and Sanyo Z3000 (all should be introduced in a few weeks at Cedia 2008) be priced around $2000. This will be amazing progress.

Jones, my question would be, should we really expect a TW3000, AE3000 or Z3000 at CEDIA, given that we've heard not a single rumor about them up to this point. At this point before the AE2000 and UB releases we had already heard enough about those pjs to build one ourselves. Also, the market pricing of those two PJs certainly isn't behaving like there are successors in the offing.

I don't know about an HC7000, given that the HC5500 is now out with most of the 6000's parts. I guess a D7 panel version with a more extensive zoom lens could put it up there.

That all being said, if those successors do come out around the 2k mark, then that is precisely the price war I was wondering about.

I've got no problems with stripper models.

I've got no problems with stripper models.

I would not mind owning one of those.:D

That had been a long term trend in the past but for the most part, except for units that didn't quite clear the performance bar, 1080p pricing has stagnated since the introduction of the ae2000 and epson1080 - heck in the case of the epson the street prices actually have gone up over time, with added features of course, but we're used to added features coming along with falling prices, not reversing them.

Also - when should we expect dagamepimp showing up to tell us how cheaper 1080p is inherently worse than expensive 1080p? :rolleyes: (certainly the hc5500 would refute that) The point of this thread is not stripper models at 999 - it's where the new updated 1080p will be forced to with high quality pjs like the Mits and the Sony coming in below the pricing of the panasonic and epson.

That statement does not have any relevance to the other thread regarding high end 720p projectors compared to the entry level 720p projectors. There is no question that the high end 720p projectors have better optics and better build quality. That is about like saying a 2008 KIA is better than a 2005 Rolls Royce because the KIA offers newer technology at a lower price. Also your comparison of HC5500 to the HC6000 is irrelevant. Those two projectors are in the same class and made nearly identical. There are a lot more differences between a Sharp 12000 MK II or Marantz VP12S4 vs an entry level projector.

Jones, my question would be, should we really expect a TW3000, AE3000 or Z3000 at CEDIA, given that we've heard not a single rumor about them up to this point. At this point before the AE2000 and UB releases we had already heard enough about those pjs to build one ourselves

I can assure you all the models I've mentioned will arrive in a few weeks, at Cedia 2008.

Last year at this time we knew *nothing* about the TW2000 or AE2000 or any other projector that was introduced at Cedia 2007.

The first time we heard about the Epson TW2000 (which was the first 1080p projector to be introduced last year) was when it was introduced at IFA 2007 (august 2007) and was previewed there by Cine4home.

The questions left unanswered for this year, are: 1. whether everybody will close the contrast gap with the TW2000, 2. whether Epson do another contrast leap, 3. whether we'll see LEDs/Lasers replacing regular bulbs, 4. whether the new average price be reduced from around $2600 to ~$2000.

That statement does not have any relevance to the other thread regarding high end 720p projectors compared to the entry level 720p projectors. There is no question that the high end 720p projectors have better optics and better build quality. That is about like saying a 2008 KIA is better than a 2005 Rolls Royce because the KIA offers newer technology at a lower price. Also your comparison of HC5500 to the HC6000 is irrelevant. Those two projectors are in the same class and made nearly identical. There are a lot more differences between a Sharp 12000 MK II or Marantz VP12S4 vs an entry level projector.

Same class? The 5500 is almost half the msrp of the 6000, in an entirely different segment (either from an AVS or consumer point of view) and is currently just about the lowest priced 1080 on the market. At the same time it uses many of the same components as the 6000 with the exception of a new lens which may or may not be inferior to the 6000. This sounds exactly like what dgp was talking about in comparing older, high end 720p with newer value priced ones.

Same class? The 5500 is almost half the msrp of the 6000, in an entirely different segment (either from an AVS or consumer point of view) and is currently just about the lowest priced 1080 on the market. At the same time it uses many of the same components as the 6000 with the exception of a new lens which may or may not be inferior to the 6000. This sounds exactly like what dgp was talking about in comparing older, high end 720p with newer value priced ones.

You are missing the point. You are using money only as your deciding point for class level. I am using the quality of parts. We both seem to agree that the HC5500 and the HC6000 use pretty much the same parts and if that is the case then how can they be in a different class? They are basically the same projector. That is not the case between a Sharp 12000 MK II or Marantz VP12S4 vs an entry level projector. These high end projectors use custom Konica-Minolta lens. extruded aluminum frames and fluid drive motors for the color wheel. These projectors weigh close to 30 pounds. That weight is not there because they did not know how to make it out of plastic.

Jones, my question would be, should we really expect a TW3000, AE3000 or Z3000 at CEDIA, given that we've heard not a single rumor about them up to this point.I believe Panasonic has shown a replacement for their highest HT LCD model at CEDIA for at least 6 years in a row. AE300->AE500->AE700->AE900->AE1000->AE2000 (although the AX100 and AX200 came in the last 2 years also). The streak might be longer with the AE100 and AE200, but don't recall when those came out. So, not showing a followon to the AE2000 at CEDIA this year would break that streak.

--Darin

In 10 or 15 years, we'll all be awaiting the latest 2160p or whatever projector that can project a 20 foot image in broad daylight, wondering what all the fuss about 1080p on a 12ft screen in a batcave was about.


In 10 years, you won't even buy a projector at all. My prediction is high-end home theater will be all about thin-film OLED that you just attach to the wall. By then, you may even be able to custom order a size to fit your individual needs.

In 10 years, you won't even buy a projector at all. My prediction is high-end home theater will be all about thin-film OLED that you just attach to the wall. By then, you may even be able to custom order a size to fit your individual needs.

Perhaps, but if thats the case in 10 years it would almost certainly be placed in the hi-end above $3000 section. I think that common folk may be able to afford something like that in 15-20 years.

In 10 years, you won't even buy a projector at all. My prediction is high-end home theater will be all about thin-film OLED that you just attach to the wall. By then, you may even be able to custom order a size to fit your individual needs.

Well...maybe.
In the meantime, bring on the lasers!:)

any one see the latest price drop on the BenQ W5000?

Visual Apex has it coming in around $2200.

InFocus X10 DLP (DC1) debuted @ $2300. I'm a bit surprised this one hasn't generated more chatter yet.

Yeah, where are the reviews on this one?

Not from around these parts? ;) It's the (Fri)day after Thanksgiving ... the traditional kickoff of the Holiday shopping orgy ... er ... season.

Ahh, thanks for the clarification. I had suspected as much, but I just wasn't familiar with that term. I don't shop much.. and I definately don't shop when it's crowded.

Yeah, where are the reviews on this one?

I don't know. I suspect it's either a matter of a) it's only been out a short time or b) folks see the DarkChip 1 spec and automatically dismiss it from consideration.

I'm hoping for a $1,500 Epson 1080UB by the end of the year. :D

ya i am suprised to hear only 1 person mention the Benq 5000/10000/9000 models. they are routinely going for less than 2000.00 online brand new in the box. (yes i know the 9000 is older..but was only discontinued in march 2008) and they are fantastic projectors with very high quality components including motorized focus/lens shift/zoom and weigh in around 25 lbs. (yes i have a W9000 and i LOVE LOVE LOVE it!!!) however, i seriously consider the Mits. 5000BL as well (but i prefer DLP over LCD for numerous reasons)

If the W9000 had a slightly longer zoom on it, it would be the ultimate under 2 grand projector. As it stands, it's still an extraordinary buy.

Jim

This might sound lame, but lens shift (being that the limit is either lined up at the top or bottom of the screen) is actually a bit of a problem for some folks.

But, if you like to bang your head into the PJ a lot. :D

RE: BenQ (and most LCD's with Lens Shift)
This might sound lame, but lens shift (being that the limit is either lined up at the top or bottom of the screen) is actually a bit of a problem for some folks.

But, if you like to bang your head into the PJ a lot.

It's not the lens shift itself that's the problem, it's the fact that lens shift is needed because of a placement problem. Lens shift allows people to use a projector in a room that otherwise could not have one.

Jim

It's not the lens shift itself that's the problem, it's the fact that lens shift is needed because of a placement problem. Lens shift allows people to use a projector in a room that otherwise could not have one.

True ... but if you have standard 8' ceilings, and don't want to bang your head, it turns out the the evil "DLP Offset" PJ's work better.

If fact, one of the reasons, I'm hesitating to pick up an HD65 is that the "relaxed" offset would require some type of extension pipe to get the screen down to a reasonable (non-neck-breaking) height. :)

So how high do you need your ceilings to be? Nine? ten? Thirty? Designing a house atm, need to know...was assuming nine feet...but is that fine for HT? Or do I need more height?

So how high do you need your ceilings to be? Nine? ten? Thirty? Designing a house atm, need to know...was assuming nine feet...but is that fine for HT? Or do I need more height?

What he is referring to in the post above yours is the small offset of some DLP projectors. If the projector has a small offset then you have to mount the projector lower or mount the screen higher. A high ceiling would mean using a mount with more drop. In other words it would be more of a problem.

If you are planning on using a DLP projector in your room you will need to decide on a projector before running your wires due to the different throw distances offered. If you have a drop in ceiling you do not need to worry about location since you will be able to place a projector anywhere.

no lens shift means putting the projector lens level with the top of your screen.

I have 9' ceilings in my basement and this works great for me. No clearance issue at all.

What he is referring to in the post above yours is the small offset of some DLP projectors. If the projector has a small offset then you have to mount the projector lower or mount the screen higher. A high ceiling would mean using a mount with more drop. In other words it would be more of a problem.

Right ... for instance: The offset angle on the HD65 is about half of most recent Optoma (and Mits) DLP PJ's. So where a flush mount might have worked for a HC1500 or HD72, I would need about an 11-12" drop tube to get the HD65 image at the same height. But, now that I think about it, the drop tube might actually make it easier to get the PJ aligned ... especially the yaw axis.

... As long as it stays above head height. :D

My original point being that the BenQ W5000 had me salivating, until I discovered that the lens shift on it actually seems to make it more difficult to do a ceiling mount in my room. Of course, I may be misinterpreting BenQ's description/spec, but they seem to be saying that the lens needs to be somewhere between the bottom and top of the screen, at least that's the way I read it.

Right ... for instance: The offset angle on the HD65 is about half of most recent Optoma (and Mits) DLP PJ's. So where a flush mount might have worked for a HC1500 or HD72, I would need about an 11-12" drop tube to get the HD65 image at the same height. But, now that I think about it, the drop tube might actually make it easier to get the PJ aligned ... especially the yaw axis.

... As long as it stays above head height. :D

My original point being that the BenQ W5000 had me salivating, until I discovered that the lens shift on it actually seems to make it more difficult to do a ceiling mount in my room. Of course, I may be misinterpreting BenQ's description/spec, but they seem to be saying that the lens needs to be somewhere between the bottom and top of the screen, at least that's the way I read it.

The W5000 has a lens shift of two picture heights. I think the image can be placed 120% above the lens. So if you wanted to have a 106" image and place the image 20" above the floor then the projector lens could be as high as 11'-2".

Perhaps, but if thats the case in 10 years it would almost certainly be placed in the hi-end above $3000 section. I think that common folk may be able to afford something like that in 15-20 years.

I doubt it will be that long. Look where projector technology was in 1998 - they had only just started being adopted as commonplace for business use at that point. I worked for a multi-billion dollar IT corporation at that time and can remember having to reserve one of a handful of projectors for conference room use because they were expensive and not easy to come by.

Since technology tends to advance at an increasing rate as time progresses, I think OLED will be fairly common in 10 years, particularly when you couple that with its potential uses. OLED is a potential solution for everything from paper thin wrist watches to billboards the size of buildings. The number of possible applications so far exceeds the use of projection technology, it will gain economies of scale at a significantly faster pace than what we have seen with DLP or LCD based displays.

The W5000 has a lens shift of two picture heights. I think the image can be placed 120% above the lens.

Ok ... that makes more sense. I'll chalk this one up to confusing marketing speak. :) I guess it's time to download the fine manual to verify.