I posted this in the LG BH200 FAQ but it's probably worthy of another thread. (If not please delete ;) )

So I put on THE ILLUSIONIST Blu-Ray on my BH200 tonight and was expecting to see the supplements "blacked out" because we all know no current U.S. BD player converts PAL for viewing on NTSC sets (you need a PAL capable display in other words). Josh Z mentioned this in his review so I just for kicks tried it out anyway...needless to say I was STUNNED because the extras DID play properly. Perfectly in fact.

I then tried other BD's with PAL content -- like the new ITV Blu Rays and the French DUNE import -- and ALL of them played back properly also! :)

Even better, I found out PAL SD discs I have ALSO worked perfectly after I applied both the standard-def "Region free" hack AND the PAL-enabled EEPROM setting (oddly, NEITHER of those needed to be applied in order to play back the PAL-encoded extras on those BD discs. They DO need to be applied to play back SD region coded PAL titles, however).

The combination resulted in all PAL discs playing back properly on my Samsung DLP' NTSC set...one which is incapable of receiving PAL signals on its own, or from the Toshiba XA2 and Panasonic BD30, both of which I also own.

At any rate, I can now get rid of my Oppo (the Qdeo video processing is superior to the Faroudja in every facet!) and can now firmly say the BH200 is the best DVD player I've owned, at least for its compatability with every disc I have :)

EDIT: I am also using the April firmware update and 702 loader with the PAL-EEPROM setting enabled and the standard-def DVD hack applied.

Hit the resolution button a few times and determine whether or not it truly converts it. ;)

Hit the resolution button a few times and determine whether or not it truly converts it. ;)

Wont let me change the resolution. Works at 1080p though.

Wont let me change the resolution. Works at 1080p though.

Stop the disc.

1080p is not NTSC or PAL.

I'm confused...I thought BD discs do not have PAL vs. NTSC but only region locks if the studio decided to author it that way?

I'm confused...I thought BD discs do not have PAL vs. NTSC but only region locks if the studio decided to author it that way?

There are standard-def extras on some Blu Ray import titles that only play in PAL. The movies themselves play fine but on most players, these extras play back with a blank screen. The LG doesn't, it actually converts it to NTSC, it seems.

Stop the disc.

1080p is not NTSC or PAL.

OK I put in the BUGSY MALONE and ILLUSIONIST Blu-Rays again. Those PAL encoded extras still play in 720p, 1080i, etc. so they are most definitely being converted to NTSC.

Sorry I might have been a bit confused before -- the DVD I was referring to earlier was a standard-def PAL disc being upscaled to 1080p. If it's playing and displaying it properly, then it's still being converted to NTSC, because I don't have a native PAL display. (As a side note, I changed resolutions on the standard-def PAL discs too and they're all playing properly at 720p, 1080i, etc. also.)

Have you verified that your TV does not support PAL resolutions? It's somewhat rare, but NTSC TVs can also support PAL. Elsewhere in the world it's common to support both.

The HDMI EDID logs will contain info on the resolutions your TV supports (the BH200 and your TV/display exchange info over HDMI, and as bradavon noted on the first page of the FAQ, Krobar found a way to display the info that's logged during that exchange).

From bradavon's FAQ:
* How do I display the System, ATAPI and HDMI EDID Logs?

Thanks to forum member Krobar for discovering this hack and Dring for confirming it works.

Instructions:

1. Make sure no disc is in the tray
2. Press PAUSE, 2, 4, 8, 6, 5

To exit the menu press the RETURN button. You can then select System Log, ATAPI Log or HDMI EDID. Followed by paging through the logs using the up and down direction keys on the remote.

You can read more information about this hack here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13811694&postcount=174)

As mentioned, page through the log to find a section where the TV reports which resolutions it supports. You might find some PAL resolutions listed.

e.g. 720p@50Hz

Enough other posters have indicated the player does not convert from PAL to NTSC that I suspect your TV/display itself supports PAL.

The original poster here may be a answering a question I've been meaning to ask...

For reference...

SD has PAL vs NTSC considerations so either your TV has to support PAL or your player has to convert.

HD is neither PAL nor ATSC.

So... while I wondered what might happen if I hooked up composite (or even component) or S-video from the LG to a TV and played an SD PAL disc... thinking probably that it wouldn't work but wondering "what if" at the same time... I considered the upconverting over HDMI.

HDMI is a digital connection... so the result of the upconvert (because of other compatibility reasons) has to be the same, assuming it is able (i.e. not restricted) to upconvert.

And finally my question...

While an SD PAL disc might not play via tha analog outputs of the LG... would they not play upconverted over HDMI since that connection by definition is neither PAL nor NTSC? Thus the player seems like it *should* essentially convert PAL to something your non-PAL TV can use as long as it is via HDMI, right?

I don't have an HDMI HDTV so it doesn't matter to me... but my father does, and while I bought the Samsung for myself I've been encouraging him to look at the LG.

Enough other posters have indicated the player does not convert from PAL to NTSC that I suspect your TV/display itself supports PAL.

Wow, that's amazing. So BOTH sets I own accept some kind of PAL signal then?

For kicks, I moved my BH200 into my bedroom and tried it on my Philips 37 LCD. I did the Monitor Support Video Resolution you suggested and it did show up with a few 50hz resolutions (1280x720P, 50hz; 1920 x1080I, 50hz; 720x576p and 720X576i, 50hz).

I didn't try it on my Samsung DLP -- and it failed to accept the PAL 50hz signal coming out of my Toshiba XA2 when I tried that player's hack last summer -- but I suppose that ALSO is accepting some kind of PAL resolution then? (I will re-hook it back up and try it again soon just to find out).

I'm stunned, I didn't think either of these TV's would play PAL...they're both fairly recent, and both the Panasonic BD30 wouldn't output a PAL signal and neither would the XA2 I owned. Maybe the LG just has more resolutions that could potentially work in it??

Nevermind, Just saw that you had the hack. Then maybe the XA2 hack doesn't support ALL PAL resolutions?

@ DM2006RI (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=7603427): What's the make/model of your Display equipment? A web search usually finds out if a TV supports PAL. I'd also do as oilblue (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=7955292) suggests and check the LG BH200 Log. You cannot do any harm by having a quick gander (look).

You need to confirm if your Display equipment does or does not support PAL first.

I'm confused...I thought BD discs do not have PAL vs. NTSC but only region locks if the studio decided to author it that way?
To add to what DM2006RI (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=7603427) said above, most SD extras on BD/HD-DVD are NTSC (even in PAL countries) but some are ported from the DVDs so are in PAL. It strictly only affects the extras of course.

While an SD PAL disc might not play via tha analog outputs of the LG... would they not play upconverted over HDMI since that connection by definition is neither PAL nor NTSC? Thus the player seems like it *should* essentially convert PAL to something your non-PAL TV can use as long as it is via HDMI, right?
That's a good point you raise there.

Firstly you definitely need to enable PAL support, as otherwise the BH200 chucks the disc out without even trying to play it. Once that's enabled it may still not work because while it's being upscaled it's still PAL and thus has PALs attributes.

As far as I know upscaling just adjusts the output resolution to 1280x720p/1920x1080i/1920x1080p and nothing much more.

p.s - It's worth creating a new thread for this one, things tend to get a bit lost in the big threads.

The original poster here may be a answering a question I've been meaning to ask...

For reference...

SD has PAL vs NTSC considerations so either your TV has to support PAL or your player has to convert.

HD is neither PAL nor ATSC.



HD doesn't use the PAL or NTSC colo(u)r space but it still has PAL-ish (50hz) vs NTSC-ish (60hz) refresh rates, and this is what we really mean. When I play PAL DVDs the BH200 upconverts them to 1080p at 50hz, anything else is 1080p at 60hz. Changing from 50hz to 60hz involves a pretty different process from changing resolution and I'd be quite surprised if the BH200 were capable of it. I think it's more likely that the OP's TV can in fact display 50hz signals. If it's a fairly recent TV of a kind that is also available in PAL countries the odd aren't that bad. Conversely, there's a good chance that the XA2 and BD30 can't play PAL unless they've been specifically hacked.

And in the case of the LG BH100/200, it's an official Hack. It's how LG enable/disable PAL for each territory. I asked the LG engineer a few months back why not just leave it enabled for everyone but I didn't get an answer.

Hardware wise: The power supply and plug type are the only things differing a USA from European BH200.

Contrary to what another user said (I forget who), when I set my European (Belgium to be precise) BH200 from it's default 92 to 80 it changed the output type from 576p to 480p. The 576 resolution is now completely gone, unless I put it back of course.

Not that that matters when you want to use 1080i or higher anyway.

@ DM2006RI: What's the make/model of your Display equipment? A web search usually finds out if a TV supports PAL. I'd also do as oilblue suggests and check the LG BH200 Log. You cannot do any harm by having a quick gander (look). You need to confirm if your Display equipment does or does not support PAL first.

That's the big mystery here, isn't it? Even after double-checking the manuals and online specs of my TVs, neither set gives any indication at all they play PAL. Both specifically state NTSC and that's it.

For the record, my two sets which both play PAL off the BH200 after the region hack are:

HL-S5087W (Samsung 50 DLP, purchased Dec. 06 thru Amazon)
37PFL5322D/37 (Philips 37 LCD, purchased in April thru Newegg)

cheers :)

HD doesn't use the PAL or NTSC colo(u)r space but it still has PAL-ish (50hz) vs NTSC-ish (60hz) refresh rates, and this is what we really mean. When I play PAL DVDs the BH200 upconverts them to 1080p at 50hz, anything else is 1080p at 60hz. Changing from 50hz to 60hz involves a pretty different process from changing resolution and I'd be quite surprised if the BH200 were capable of it. I think it's more likely that the OP's TV can in fact display 50hz signals. If it's a fairly recent TV of a kind that is also available in PAL countries the odd aren't that bad. Conversely, there's a good chance that the XA2 and BD30 can't play PAL unless they've been specifically hacked.

I guess what I'm thinking/considering is that the HDTV specifications along with the HDMI connection specifications may very well be defined in such a way as to require that any two devices (TV and player in this case) which are to be paired together meet the same requirements... in which case an HDTV with an HDMI interface might be required to be capable of taking all the inputs in the current standard... and the same said for the player... such that any upconversion over HDMI results in an acceptable signal for any HDTV regardless of PAL/NTSC original SD source material.

Granted, I'm entirely speculating here... but the original poster's results might support my thoughts and hopes since it would fit my father's needs nicely for his setup.

I guess what I'm thinking/considering is that the HDTV specifications along with the HDMI connection specifications may very well be defined in such a way as to require that any two devices (TV and player in this case) which are to be paired together meet the same requirements... in which case an HDTV with an HDMI interface might be required to be capable of taking all the inputs in the current standard... and the same said for the player... such that any upconversion over HDMI results in an acceptable signal for any HDTV regardless of PAL/NTSC original SD source material.


That would be a good idea but I don't think that's quite how it works -- it's entirely possible to have a player/display that only transmits/accepts a subset of the available resolutions and timings. There are plenty of examples, eg not that many players/displays deal with 1080p/24 yet, and in the US the ability to output or display 50hz timings is far from universal.

Upconversion is one thing, reclocking from a 24hz/60hz source to 50hz is a different thing entirely and not at all trivial if you want to avoid artifacts. The HDMI connection is digital but it still tends to preserve the characteristics of the source.

Now it may be that the BH200 looks for a 50hz signal, and if it doesn't find one does the best it can to output a 50hz source at 60hz. But the other possibility is that the OP's TV can be made to accept a 50hz signal even if it doesn't advertise the fact.

If the OP would dig around in the LG's memory to see what display resolutions/timings are listed, we'd have a better idea.

If the OP would dig around in the LG's memory to see what display resolutions/timings are listed, we'd have a better idea.

I mentioned what I found on my 37' Philips LCD a few posts up. In addition to the 60hz resolutions, here were a number of 50hz resolutions on this LCD that showed up in that BH200 HDMI log one of the other posters suggested -- to be precise, they are:

1280x720P, 50hz;
1920 x1080I, 50hz;
720x576p 50hz;
720X576i, 50hz.

I need to hook the player up on my Samsung DLP to find out what 50hz resolution that TV apparently DOES support, because as I wrote before, whatever 50hz signal my hacked XA2 supported, it didn't work on that TV. One of the LG's 50hz resolutions looks like it does, I take it.

If you'd like me to run another one of those logs, just let me know. I'm as curious to find out why this is working as anyone :)

I just find it really really odd (and a gigantic coincidence) I just happened to buy two different NTSC TVs that both support some (it seems) PAL resolutions...perhaps it's becoming more commonplace these days?

The HDMI connection is digital but it still tends to preserve the characteristics of the source.
As it should. The less converting the better.

But the other possibility is that the OP's TV can be made to accept a 50hz signal even if it doesn't advertise the fact.
Or it may support PAL to an extent, even if it doesn't support it 100%.

There's been cases of that on the forum, whereby a PAL DVD works fine but the screen is black when the BH200 is first turned on, and outputting a 50Hz signal.

Or it may support PAL to an extent, even if it doesn't support it 100%.

There's been cases of that on the forum, whereby a PAL DVD works fine but the screen is black when the BH200 is first turned on, and outputting a 50Hz signal.

That's the case with me -- when loading a PAL movie on my Philips LCD, the opening splash logo appears, then the blue screen and the movie.

On the Samsung DLP, the opening logo screen is black, then the blue screen comes on and the movie appears.

Sadly there's no way to fix that, without entirely disabling PAL support. For reasons unknown, when PAL is enabled the BH200 always initially outputs 50Hz.

Any ideas Peterjcat?

As I wrote before, I am displaying PAL properly on two different sets (one minus the opening LG logo) so here are the results of the LG's HDMI logs for my two TVs:

SAMSUNG DLP 50'

1920x1080i 16:9 60hz
1280X720P 16:9 60hz
720X480P 16:9 60hz
720x480I 16:9 60hz
1920x1080P 16:9 60hz
1440x480P 16:9 60hz
2880x480I 16:9 60hz
2880x480P 16:9 60hz

Any ideas what to make of this??:confused: FWIW my Samsung DLP, when a PAL disc is running, says it is displaying 1920x1080@60hz.

PHILIPS 37' LCD

640X480p 4:3 60hz
720x480p 16:9 60hz
1280x720P 16:9 60hz
1920X1080i 16:9 60hz
720x480i 4:3 60hz
720x480i 16:9 60hz
720x576 16:9 50hz
1280x720p 16:9 50hz
1920x1080i 16:9 50hz
720X576I 4:3 50hz
720X576I 16:9 50hz

Both TVs play PAL DVDs just fine? Interesting.

edit: What I'm getting at is that testing with Euro versions of HD DVD or BD titles won't necessarily tell us anything as SD special features aren't necessarily PAL format to begin with. Only real way to be sure is a PAL format DVD.

Remember the odd European/Australasian DVD is NTSC too (although most are PAL) and counties like Thailand use PAL and NTSC.

Both TVs play PAL DVDs just fine? Interesting.

Exactly. The only difference between them is that the Samsung DLP won't show the LG logo screen -- it starts up blank but then comes on at the blue screen (the one that shows whatever format disc has been loaded) to whatever resolution I have it set at.

What I'm getting at is that testing with Euro versions of HD DVD or BD titles won't necessarily tell us anything as SD special features aren't necessarily PAL format to begin with. Only real way to be sure is a PAL format DVD.

That's exactly what I've been using -- Region 2 PAL DVDs.

However, in the cases where the SD special features are PAL (as in the Italian ILLUSIONIST Blu-Ray or French DUNE), I can confirm those are also playing perfectly on both TVs as well.

That's exactly what I've been using -- Region 2 PAL DVDs.


Those are pretty easy to find. Disc 2 of La Môme HD DVD set is region 2 PAL. The same goes for the SD sides of the BBC combos.

It totally doesn't surprise me that a Philips TV would support PAL.

BTW, true PAL is 576i (not 480i, not 720p, not 1080i/p).

It totally doesn't surprise me that a Philips TV would support PAL.

What about the Samsung? There weren't any 50hz resolutions listed there. Any ideas what is making it work?

Assuming the PAL DVD is film content, it's likely on disc at 24fps at PAL resolution. Thing is, the BH200 upscales/upconverts the video to 720p or 1080i/p...and we know it's capable of taking film content to either 50Hz or 60Hz.

Add it all up, and it's not surprising the BH200 can output film content (either PAL resolution or NTSC resolution) to both 50Hz and 60Hz. That's not a PAL to NTSC conversion really (480i/p <> 576i/p).

The fact the Samsung doesn't list 50Hz in the EDID log matches up perfectly with the Samsung reporting 1920x1080@60hz (post #22).

On the other hand, if the content was 720p@50Hz (or 1080i/p@50Hz), I doubt the BH200 would convert that to 60Hz.

The fact the Samsung has a blank screen until the movie starts matches up with that theory (the BH200 is outputing the menu at a frequency the TV/display can't handle--50Hz--so it's blank). Then, when the DVD movie starts, the BH200 finds a match:
- upscale/upconvert to selected HD resolution at a frequency supported by the display

Given that, a display with 50Hz support at HD resolutions isn't entirely necessary for playback of film content on PAL DVDs....assuming of course the content is at 24fps on disc.

Displays with 50Hz listed in the EDID log should have the logo screen and "Home" screen just fine when set to a PAL region in the EPROM. Those without 50Hz support get a blank screen.

It's still not a PAL to NTSC conversion per se. "Just" an upscale of SD film content over HDMI (something the unit has to do anyway).

Well, there's a theoretical explanation of what's going on. And a guess at that. Does it sound reasonable?

Sounds reasonable to me oilblue :) I would think that explains most of it, and I appreciate your response!

So to sum up (and I'm not nearly as tech savvy as you guys, in case you couldn't tell ;) :

1. You actually don't need a PAL capable display to watch PAL discs off the BH200 after all? Or, to be more precise, you don't need it provided you are running HDMI?

2. The Philips LCD I have is capable of PAL to begin with as we found out, yet the Samsung DLP isn't -- but the BH200 is making it work because it's outputting the PAL content at 60hz (upscaling it to a resolution the Samsung IS capable of displaying).

Theoretically, then, couldn't the BH200 output PAL on most newer NTSC TV's, provided you are running HDMI at 60hz? (Or is there something about the Samsung that "clicks" with the BH200 that's making an exception in my case?).

So my hacked XA2 couldn't output PAL (even with PAL enabled on it) -- I just got a blank screen when trying to do it on the Samsung -- but the BH200 is able to do it....because XA2 wouldn't display a 50hz signal at 60hz, but the BH200 does, and that's what the difference is.

Therefore, it's not NTSC-PAL conversion per se, but rather 50hz-60hz conversion? Meaning it's functioning effectively as a region free player that displays PAL, just not doing it the same way.

What about the Samsung? There weren't any 50hz resolutions listed there. Any ideas what is making it work?
Philips are a European Consumer Electronics company (the only one of any size we have left), unlike Samsung. That's all Allargon meant.

DM2006RI: I think you're confusing a few things here, and I'm not qualified to clear everything up. Here's an attempt at clarifying what I can (in another post I'll respond directly to your last one and the questions you raised).

Resolution is one thing, frame rate is another. PAL SD resolution is 576. NTSC SD resolution is 480. The BH200 can upscale either of those to HD resolutions over HDMI.

Then there's frame rate...and that varies depending on source. For example:
- film is 24fps
- 480i (NTSC SD TV) is 30fps
- 576i (PAL SD TV) is 25fps

PAL displays apparently are usually capable of displaying NTSC content (bradavon and others have said this). That means they can handle 480i and 576i.

NTSC displays generally can't do PAL, so they're only capable of 480i (30fps).

Then there's DVD and how content is stored...

Film content:
- by virtue of using film, it's not interlaced in its original form
- original frame rate is 24fps

Film frame rate obviously differs from SD TVs/displays (25fps/30fps). One option is to author the DVD at the appropriate frame rate for the region (25fps or 30fps). However, that's usually not done.

The most efficient means of storing the film content is to store the entire frame at the original frame rate and then let the player (or display) interlace it (if necessary). As a result, studios generally release DVDs with film content stored in progressive format (576p24 for PAL, and 480p24 for NTSC).

We'll skip how the frame rate is converted 30fps (check out telecine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine) if you're interested).

TV content is a different matter as those cameras are (or were) traditionally interlaced...and the frame rate matches the TVs in that region...so ignore DVDs of TV content for now.

Then there's HD...where the resolution is the same across the board, but frame rate varies.

Excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p
The frame rate (in this case equal to the refresh rate) can be either implied by the context or specified in hertz after the letter p. The five 720p frame rates in common use are 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60 Hz (or frame/s). In general, traditional PAL and SECAM countries (Europe, Australia, much of Asia, Africa, and parts of South America) are or will be using the 25p and 50p frame or field rates, whereas traditional NTSC countries (North and Central America, Japan, South Korea, Philippines) are using 24p (for movies), and 60p for high motion programming.

Excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080i
The frame rate in hertz can be either implied by the context or specified after the letter i. The two frame rates in common use are 25 frame/s (in countries that use 50 Hz alternating current) and 30 frame/s (in 60 Hz countries), with the former (1080i25) generally being used in traditional PAL and SECAM countries (Europe, Australia, much of Asia, Africa), and the latter (1080i30) being used in traditional NTSC countries (e.g. United States, Canada and Japan). Both variants can be transmitted by both major digital television formats, ATSC and DVB.


OK, with that rather lengthy background out of the way, let's look at the BH200 and how it fits in:
- upscaling SD content to HD resolution is only allowed over HDMI (for copy protection regions, the DVD Forum doesn't allow DVD content upconverting over analogue connections such as component).
- HDMI connections exchange info re: capabilities so that they're able to send each other appropriate formats
- from numerous posters in here, we know the same unit is used worldwide with the exception of the power supply. That means the player itself is capable of taking 576p24 and 480p24 film content on DVD, and upscaling that to various HD resolutions and frame rates (like those detailed in the excerpts above)
- the BH200 determines which region it's in based on the EPROM setting (changing the 4th byte allows us to change the region of the player...which allows us to play BDs from other regions)
- a hack was found by Julio Cohen to make the DVD side of the BH200 Multi-region (i.e. a North American purchased BH200 will not spit out a PAL DVD)

Putting all of those together for PAL DVDs on an NTSC purchased BH200:
- a PAL DVD will be accepted by the BH200 if the Multi-Region hack is applied, or if the EPROM region is set appropriately
- if you're connected via HDMI, the BH200 will upconvert the SD content
- if it's film content stored at 24fps, that upconversion will be to an appropriate frame rate for your display's capabilities


None of that means it's converting PAL to NTSC or vice versa. It's simply upconverting film content to HD at a frame rate appropriate for your display. Whether it accepts the disc depends on EPROM setting or the Multi-Region hack.

It works for film content because that's a base function of the player:
- in "PAL regions", the BH200 is capable of upscaling 576p24 to HD @ 50Hz
- in "NTSC regions", the BH200 is capable of upscaling 480p24 to HD @ 60Hz

Going from 576i25 to 480i30, or 1080i50 to 1080i60 is a completely different matter (as shown by the fact the BH200 logo screen and Home menu is not displayed on your Samsung).

To get everything--not just film content from DVD--an HD display capable of 50Hz and 60Hz is required.

Actually as far as I know film content on PAL DVDs is almost always stored at 25 fps. This is because 24 frames don't go into 50hz nearly as easily as they do into 60hz. So at the time of DVD transfer the film is sped up by the necessary 4%. I've got heaps of PAL DVDs and they're almost all 576p25 with a few older ones at 576i50.

And that's why displaying a PAL DVD on a 60hz display is not a trivial matter and most players/TVs can't do it. From what I can tell it's still an open question whether it's DM2006RI's DLP TV or BH200 that's doing the reclocking, we'd need someone else with a confirmed NTSC-only TV to play a PAL DVD through the BH200 and see what happens. If it's the BH200, that's great news for our North American friends!

(I know that DM2006RI's TV reports a 60hz signal but I'm not sure whether that's reporting what the input is or what the current TV display mode is.)

Sounds reasonable to me oilblue :) I would think that explains most of it, and I appreciate your response!

So to sum up (and I'm not nearly as tech savvy as you guys, in case you couldn't tell ;) :

1. You actually don't need a PAL capable display to watch PAL discs off the BH200 after all? Or, to be more precise, you don't need it provided you are running HDMI?

Actually, your findings have shown there's a clear difference for displays with 50Hz support:
- your Samsung (without HD @ 60) does not display the boot-up screen or the home menu
- your Philips (with HD @ 50) does display those

Why the difference? Because at those points, based on EPROM setting, the BH200 thinks it should output 50Hz. Since the EDID exchange with the Samsung didn't include anything to match, the screen is blank (either because the BH200 is sending nothing, or it's sending a signal out of range).

Meanwhile, the Philips can do 50Hz, so you got the boot-up screen and home menu.

The question is, what happens if the PAL content on disc is not 24fps... Will the BH200 still upconvert to 60? If it does, your Samsung will display it. If not, blank screen on the Samsung.

2. The Philips LCD I have is capable of PAL to begin with as we found out, yet the Samsung DLP isn't -- but the BH200 is making it work because it's outputting the PAL content at 60hz (upscaling it to a resolution the Samsung IS capable of displaying).

Basically correct. The BH200 is upconverting the 24fps content to 60fps (base function for NTSC DVDs). HD resolution is HD resolution, so you're set.

Theoretically, then, couldn't the BH200 output PAL on most newer NTSC TV's, provided you are running HDMI at 60hz? (Or is there something about the Samsung that "clicks" with the BH200 that's making an exception in my case?).
If you're talking about 24fps content on PAL discs, then yes, it seems most NTSC TVs with HDMI would be OK. At least based on your findings. :)

What's causing that? Must be something in the Broadcom chipset that LG used in the BH200 (i.e. it doesn't care what the original resolution is--576 or 480--it just upconverts 24fps content to HD). In theory anyway.

So my hacked XA2 couldn't output PAL (even with PAL enabled on it) -- I just got a blank screen when trying to do it on the Samsung -- but the BH200 is able to do it....because XA2 wouldn't display a 50hz signal at 60hz, but the BH200 does, and that's what the difference is.
More likely the XA2 was outputting PAL just fine. It's just the Samsung couldn't display 50fps.

Meanwhile, the BH200 is going from 24fps to 60fps (even though the source resolution is 576p rather than the usual 480p jump to 60fps)

Therefore, it's not NTSC-PAL conversion per se, but rather 50hz-60hz conversion? Meaning it's functioning effectively as a region free player that displays PAL, just not doing it the same way.

Really doubt it's not 50 to 60 conversion at all. Otherwise you'd see the Home screen and boot-up screen on both of your TVs. As it is, you only see that on your 50Hz capable display. No 50 to 60 conversion is happening. It's 24fps to 60fps, or 24fps to 50fps (depending on the display's capabilities).

At least that's the theory. :) Hope that helps.

And if anyone has info to contradict this theory, please chime in.

Actually as far as I know film content on PAL DVDs is almost always stored at 25 fps. This is because 24 frames don't go into 50hz nearly as easily as they do into 60hz. So at the time of DVD transfer the film is sped up by the necessary 4%. I've got heaps of PAL DVDs and they're almost all 576p25 with a few older ones at 576i50.

And that's why displaying a PAL DVD on a 60hz display is not a trivial matter and most players/TVs can't do it. From what I can tell it's still an open question whether it's DM2006RI's DLP TV or BH200 that's doing the reclocking, we'd need someone else with a confirmed NTSC-only TV to play a PAL DVD through the BH200 and see what happens. If it's the BH200, that's great news for our North American friends!

(I know that DM2006RI's TV reports a 60hz signal but I'm not sure whether that's reporting what the input is or what the current TV display mode is.)
Good info. Figures something was a little off in my explanation. :o

Quick question. Are those PAL DVDs film content or TV content? Thanks.

Edit: Any chance the film content on PAL DVDs is stored at 24fps, and then sped up 4% by the player (or by flags in the stream that tell to playback at 25fps)?

Edit #2: Looks like I answered my own question. :) From the aforementioned telecine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3_pulldown) article:
Although the 4% speed increase has been standard since the early days of PAL and SECAM television, recently a new technique has gained popularity, and the resulting speed and pitch of the telecined presentation are identical to that of the original film.

This pulldown method[3] is sometimes used in order to convert 24 frame/s material to 25 frame/s. Usually, this involves a film to PAL transfer without the aforementioned 4% speedup. For film at 24 frame/s, there are 24 frames of film for every 25 frames of PAL video. In order to accommodate this mismatch in frame rate, 24 frames of film have to be distributed over 50 PAL fields. This can be accomplished by inserting a pulldown field every 12 frames, thus effectively spreading 12 frames of film over 25 fields (or “12.5 frames”) of PAL video.

Maybe the title DM2006RI tested was authored with this form of pulldown. If so, it highlights that 50Hz support in an NTSC display is necessary for complete playback of PAL DVDs.

Unfortunately I'm a lousy tester for this--no PAL discs, and the EDID log shows our TV supports HD @ 50Hz (not that I'm complaining about that support :) ).

:)

Almost all PAL DVDs are stored at 25fps whether film or TV. This is obviously a big difference from NTSC DVD where you usually have either 23.976fps for film or 29.97fps for TV.

Yep, it's possible that DM2006RI's DVD was authored using the 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 pulldown method described. I just haven't seen it done that way. I recently converted all of my PAL DVDs to MKV using a program that tells you what the original framerate is and it's always been straight 25. But I'll keep an eye out!

Great responses guys! This is why I was so surprised when I put the Samsung on the other night and it was playing all of my PAL discs back properly...I thought I needed my Oppo player (with its PAL-NTSC conversion) to do that. Obviously it's either the TV or the LG. Anything else I can provide for info, just let me know! :)

I also own a LOT of PAL DVDs I've purchased over the years...both film-based and TV content. All of them, whether they're recent titles or older ones, work fine on the Samsung DLP and the BH200 from what I tested the other night.

And that's why displaying a PAL DVD on a 60hz display is not a trivial matter and most players/TVs can't do it. From what I can tell it's still an open question whether it's DM2006RI's DLP TV or BH200 that's doing the reclocking, we'd need someone else with a confirmed NTSC-only TV to play a PAL DVD through the BH200 and see what happens. If it's the BH200, that's great news for our North American friends!

(I know that DM2006RI's TV reports a 60hz signal but I'm not sure whether that's reporting what the input is or what the current TV display mode is.)

I thought it was displaying the current TV mode (i.e. 1920X1080@60hz), not necessarily the input, but I may be wrong, because it does change depending on the resolution the player is set at...but who knows. My Philips LCD, on the other hand, doesn't display anything other than "720" or "1080".

I should add that I also own a Popcorn Hour ("networked media tank") which enables you to select different HDMI resolutions and quite specific ones at that (i.e. 1080p 60hz, PAL 1080p 50hz, etc). Nothing via 50hz works -- I get a black screen every time -- only resolutions of NTSC 60hz appear through it on the Sammy DLP. :cool:

I should add that I also own a Popcorn Hour ("networked media tank") which enables you to select different HDMI resolutions and quite specific ones at that (i.e. 1080p 60hz, PAL 1080p 50hz, etc). Nothing via 50hz works -- I get a black screen every time -- only resolutions of NTSC 60hz appear through it on the Sammy DLP. :cool:

I know what you mean, but this is AVS. Please stop referring to anything other than 480i60 as NTSC. 720p60, 1080i60 and 1080p30/60 are all ATSC.

I know what you mean, but this is AVS. Please stop referring to anything other than 480i60 as NTSC. 720p60, 1080i60 and 1080p30/60 are all ATSC.

I was just writing literally what the Popcorn Hour states when I go to select its resolution. That's how it is listed in the set-up menu of that particular device.

I posted this in the LG BH200 FAQ but it's probably worthy of another thread. (If not please delete ;) )

So I put on THE ILLUSIONIST Blu-Ray on my BH200 tonight and was expecting to see the supplements "blacked out" because we all know no current U.S. BD player converts PAL for viewing on NTSC sets (you need a PAL capable display in other words). Josh Z mentioned this in his review so I just for kicks tried it out anyway...needless to say I was STUNNED because the extras DID play properly. Perfectly in fact.

I then tried other BD's with PAL content -- like the new ITV Blu Rays and the French DUNE import -- and ALL of them played back properly also! :)

Even better, I found out PAL SD discs I have ALSO worked perfectly after I applied both the standard-def "Region free" hack AND the PAL-enabled EEPROM setting (oddly, NEITHER of those needed to be applied in order to play back the PAL-encoded extras on those BD discs. They DO need to be applied to play back SD region coded PAL titles, however).

The combination resulted in all PAL discs playing back properly on my Samsung DLP' NTSC set...one which is incapable of receiving PAL signals on its own, or from the Toshiba XA2 and Panasonic BD30, both of which I also own.

At any rate, I can now get rid of my Oppo (the Qdeo video processing is superior to the Faroudja in every facet!) and can now firmly say the BH200 is the best DVD player I've owned, at least for its compatability with every disc I have :)

EDIT: I am also using the April firmware update and 702 loader with the PAL-EEPROM setting enabled and the standard-def DVD hack applied.the player doesnt convert between ntsc and pal. your tv supports pal and probably didnt know about it till you played a pal dvd. it flipped me out as well the 1st time i changed the region code on it and made it pal compatibale then played another region disc and my plasma displayed it fine. and also blu ray doesnt use pal or ntsc its picture format is AVC advanced video coding

Um, DM2006RI has one TV that supports PAL region HD frame rate / frequency (50Hz), and one that doesn't. Nor was DM2006RI talking about HD content (like blu ray). Try reading the thread a bit beyond the first post next time.

Thanks Oilblue :)

I will check out the LG tomorrow on the other set we have, a Samsung 32' LCD that's a couple of years old. Will let you know what I find.

It works again! :)

Here's the HDMI EDID log for my 32' Samsung LCD (LNS3241D -- 2006 model), which is also displaying PAL perfectly on standard-def DVDs and the PAL-encoded special features of the import BD's I mentioned before:

Monitor Support Video Resolution:
1280x720P 16:9 60hz
1920x1080I 16:9 60hz
720X480P 16:9 60hz

Thus, I've now confirmed the machine is running PAL on two different displays that do not support PAL (50hz) frequencies via HDMI, at least according to the BH200's EDID log.

I should add that I also own a Popcorn Hour ("networked media tank") which enables you to select different HDMI resolutions and quite specific ones at that (i.e. 1080p 60hz, PAL 1080p 50hz, etc). Nothing via 50hz works -- I get a black screen every time -- only resolutions of NTSC 60hz appear through it on the Sammy DLP. :cool:


How do you like the "popcorn hour"? What in your mind is its Pros and Cons? Ive been looking at that one (Ive heard good things). And Ive also been looking at the HDX 900 ( http://www.hdx1080.com/ ) which Ive heard a TON of great things about.

Not ready to pull the trigger yet (but soon).

Thanks for any feedback you can give me.

How do you like the "popcorn hour"? What in your mind is its Pros and Cons? Ive been looking at that one (Ive heard good things). And Ive also been looking at the HDX 900 ( http://www.hdx1080.com/ ) which Ive heard a TON of great things about.

Not ready to pull the trigger yet (but soon).

Thanks for any feedback you can give me.

This is discussed in detail here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=39
It can also do this: http://www.treasure-cove.net/PCHrev3.htm ;)

I would recommend you look at the DVICO 4100/5100/6500/7000 series as well. Works very well.

How do you like the "popcorn hour"? What in your mind is its Pros and Cons? Ive been looking at that one (Ive heard good things). And Ive also been looking at the HDX 900 ( http://www.hdx1080.com/ ) which Ive heard a TON of great things about.

Not ready to pull the trigger yet (but soon).

Thanks for any feedback you can give me.

I love it BDX --- for video it plays nearly everything, at least what I happen to use. Check the thread on it if you have specific needs (i.e. file types) and you want to ensure those are supported, but everything I've personally thrown at it works and works very well indeed. For the $ I think it's a deal.

I just got a BH200 (Circuit City sale + 10% off) and tested a region 0 PAL DVD (I didn't have any region B import Blu-Rays). I know my TV doesn't display PAL, and the EDID log shows only 60 hz resolutions.

The PAL DVD worked when upconverted to 1080i (either for HDMI or component). However, it didn't work when I tried converting it to 480p or 720p (over component; my TV acts weird and won't accept 480p HDMI at all, for some reason.) The DVD is Tomorrow People disk 1, an old TV show, and is definitely not anything like film or 24 hz.

So it doesn't have to be 24 hz source as someone suggested. It's not a complete solution, though, on some TVs. Mine is one of the ones that refuses to display 1080i in 4:3 aspect ratio. The usual solution to this is to use 480p component instead, but PAL only works in 1080i, which means I can't play this DVD in the correct aspect ratio at all.

I just got a BH200 (Circuit City sale + 10% off) and tested a region 0 PAL DVD (I didn't have any region B import Blu-Rays). I know my TV doesn't display PAL, and the EDID log shows only 60 hz resolutions.

The PAL DVD worked when upconverted to 1080i (either for HDMI or component). However, it didn't work when I tried converting it to 480p or 720p (over component; my TV acts weird and won't accept 480p HDMI at all, for some reason.) The DVD is Tomorrow People disk 1, an old TV show, and is definitely not anything like film or 24 hz.

So it doesn't have to be 24 hz source as someone suggested. It's not a complete solution, though, on some TVs. Mine is one of the ones that refuses to display 1080i in 4:3 aspect ratio. The usual solution to this is to use 480p component instead, but PAL only works in 1080i, which means I can't play this DVD in the correct aspect ratio at all.

I just got a BH200 with the CC +10% off coupon sale; only tested it a few days now but it's probably going back. The PAL DVD upconverted to 1080i doesn't work via HDMI>DVI on my display (Sony 57: rear projection CRT). I tried the F*ck You extras PAL DVD of Crank HD DVD and nothing but a blank screen on the TV. I could hear the audio via my Onkyo 605 receiver, but nothing on the TV. Then I tried Crank HD DVD - got stuck in the menu every time I tried to select the English audio - I could select the English audio and subtitles off, but couldn't get the menu to go away or get the movie to play. Then I tried just playing the movie and using the subtitles and display button to change to English audio with no luck.

As I have both an XA2 and Onkyo 805 HD DVD players I got the BH200 primarily for blu-ray and the region free / PAL features. It has a marginally better PQ than the PS3 for BD, but the PAL/region free are useless for me. I'm actually pretty fed up with BD; HD DVD has terrific PQ at 1080i on my display; BD on the PS3 looks only marginally better than upconverted DVD. I'll probably return the BH200, sell the PS3, and enjoy HD DVD for a couple of years until I'm finally ready to upgrade my TV and then maybe give BD another shot.