Hello,
we are small post production studio in Eastern Europe. For our DI (digital intermediate) room we have profesional color grading system and as a option of our broadcast monitor we are offering workflow with digital projection for our feature film projects.
As you can imagine the color accuracy and the reach blacks (bigest dynamic range) are our main priorities. Unfortunatelly we can not afford to buy profesionall color critical projector like Barco DP90 (DP100) or Christie's models thats why we are looking for prosumer (digital theatre) projector with price under 20 000$. For the moment we think that the best solution is JVC-DLAHD100 (JVC DLA-RS2). I will be very gratefull if you can help me with this choice if answer those questions:

1. Do you think that this particular model is good enough for color critical work?

2. I am buying my equipment for USA, but after I made my request to JVC I got a response that this unit sales only with 120V electricity option.
The DLA-RSA (which as far as I know is basically the same unit in different enclosure) doesn't suffer from this limitation and supports 220V and 120V. What is youe experience about this?

3. After asking for color calibration before delivery in Europe I was told that they can do the color calibration in house, but in order this to be done I have to buy RSVP2 unit for an extra 3695 $ (USD) and that without it a calibration is not possible.
My question here is - Do you know any places in LA area wich can do professional color calibration without buying this video processor (RSVP2)? If yes please tell me where I can do this.

I am sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for your time.

Regards
Victor Trichkov
CEO
Cinemotion Ltd.

Interesting first post. I cant wait to see where this goes!

Color critical work for which gamut?
You can calibrate to Rec 709 or 601 with an outside video processor (Radiance or JVC). How stable this is over time I don't know. You might have to recalibrate frequently as the bulb ages if you have low tolerances for error.
For film out work you need special hardware with special LUTs. Mr. D should be able to tell you all about it. :)

Color critical work for which gamut?
You can calibrate to Rec 709 or 601 with an outside video processor (Radiance or JVC). How stable this is over time I don't know. You might have to recalibrate frequently as the bulb ages if you have low tolerances for error.
For film out work you need special hardware with special LUTs. Mr. D should be able to tell you all about it. :)

I need REC709 Calibration. We have the LUT and the software needed for the film out projects. And "Yes" I know that often calibration is needed because of the light bulb life.
Some pro- studios are doing calibration every week. From your post I can tell that I will need this processor that I mentioned earlier - RSVP2 if I want a proper Rec709 calibration. To bad...
Thanks for the response!

Victor

I need REC709 Calibration. We have the LUT and the software needed for the film out projects. And "Yes" I know that often calibration is needed because of the light bulb life.
Some pro- studios are doing calibration every week. From your post I can tell that I will need this processor that I mentioned earlier - RSVP2 if I want a proper Rec709 calibration. To bad...
Thanks for the response!

Victor

You can get an RS2 and a Lumagen Radiance for under $10k. This will allow you to calibrate for SMPTE-C and Rec 709.

Agree with above. There is no way with thr RS2 to calibrate it without an external video processor containing a CMS. I would hang a few months and see what Cedia brings. The Joe Kane Samsung has the best color and gray scale accuracy but its blacks are probably not up to the standard (actually down to the standard) you need.

The RS2 and RS1X are great projectors in virtually all respects. But, for what you want, alone neither would work. They are both heavily oversaturated out of the box. See below:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/RS2_Colors_After.jpg
These are for REC709.

Anyways, they can be greatly fixed with a RadianceXD or similar processor containing a CMS system.

You should have no problems with the HD100. You do not need a standalone CMS. Certainly not the kit mentioned on here : it won't do what you want or be flexible or accurate enough.

Your DI system will either be able to calibrate itself or use 3D LUTs generated by a third party system ( cinespace or filmlight are probably the most popular).


I've seen at least two HD100s in DI suites at top notch companies although in fairly small DI suites ( more HD10ks than you can count to be honest).

You should be able to get it pretty accurate however you probably want a second monitor in there anyway ( the operator will obviously have their own monitors anyway).

It won't be quite as good as a Barco DP100 for film work although even one of those isn't quite 100% accurate to film. I'm happy to sign stuff off on a DP100 without seeing it back on film. I probably would want to final on print rather than an HD100 though.

Oh yeah I'd expect a professional DI suite to get calibrated once a day. They should just be running an automated profiler first thing in the morning or last thing at night, just be thankful its pretty automated . One of my first jobs involved calibrating up to 3 workstations a night and it was a lot more hands on than todays systems.

For the film side of things you'll need 3dcubes of the most popular print stocks from Kodak and Fuji : ideally you'll build these from actually running some test images through your entire scan and record pipeline rather than relying on generic luts.

Your baseline calibration doesn't actually matter (rec.709, D55, DCI ) as long as your display still has enough intensity capabilty to map your desired film lut into: lots of people use a baseline rec.709 lutted for film these days ( it used to be D.55 but it sucks too much red intensity out of most displays).

I love some of the posts on here that insinuate that post production is less than stringent with color standards and then you get other people recommending a Radiance for professional DI suites:o

MrD
"Your DI system will either be able to calibrate itself or use 3D LUTs generated by a third party system ( cinespace or filmlight are probably the most popular).
"
Can you expand on how this works in detail contrasting it to how a HD100 plus a Radiance XD works together?
I have read in a swedish forum that the intensities are very difficult if not impossible to get correct with the JVC. Do the professional systems you talk about takes steps beyond the Lumagen product to ensure this?

Profiled closed loop calibration systems using 3dluts (cubes) for color transforms.

Filmlight , cinespace are two of the more popular systems. They all fundamentally work the same way. All professional post production facilities will have a similar system.

The radiance isn't closed loop , its just a manual CMS. Its been covered in another thread.

Profiled closed loop calibration systems using 3dluts (cubes) for color transforms.

Filmlight , cinespace are two of the more popular systems. They all fundamentally work the same way. All professional post production facilities will have a similar system.

The radiance isn't closed loop , its just a manual CMS. Its been covered in another thread.

Thank you all for your oppinions. If I got what Mr.D said right the callibration done in Cinespace is good enough and I won't need REC 709 or REC 601 calibration of the unit prior to this? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Anybody with DLA-HD100 model in US? Are they really locked to only 120V/60Hz?

The key thing is that if you add a outboard CMS (of any type), the projetor has to be oversaturated already (which is the case with the JVC). In some (rare) instances, out of the box certain model projectors are undersaturated, but it is uncommon as I said.

Thank you all for your oppinions. If I got what Mr.D said right the callibration done in Cinespace is good enough and I won't need REC 709 or REC 601 calibration of the unit prior to this? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Anybody with DLA-HD100 model in US? Are they really locked to only 120V/60Hz?

With cinespace you can either aim to calibrate the projector to a specific target profile : Rec.709 say or Cineon D.55. Or you can just let it profile the display in whatever state it happens to be in : ideally you want it setup so as to maximise the available contrast . I'd suggest the latter approach. The actual hardware calibration isn't so important as long as it maximises the available range to build the Luts into.

Cinespace will then profile the display and depending on what results you get from the profile (whether it decouples) you'll either have a usable display or not.

The Luts themselves can be written out in a number of formats compatable with most DI type applications.

You will get lots of information from the user manual and directly from RSR. RSR will also build Luts based on youre pipeline if required.

You will need a decent sensor as well. I've used the D2 a fair bit but it might not be that great for a projector for DI purposes.

The Radience is not a professional LUT box. IMO, it's a consumer toy for playing with color gamut in an HT enviornment. You have to be able to download LUTs to the box and I don't really see a way to do that nor do I see what file types it can accept.

Fortunatly there is a good selection of low cost tools from www.blackmagic-design.com. They make a HDSDI LUT box with DVI for $800. We are currently using them to pull the Panasoinc Plasmas primaries into P3 color space.

The Radience is not a professional LUT box. IMO, it's a consumer toy for playing with color gamut in an HT enviornment. You have to be able to download LUTs to the box and I don't really see a way to do that nor do I see what file types it can accept.

Fortunatly there is a good selection of low cost tools from www.blackmagic-design.com. They make a HDSDI LUT box with DVI for $800. We are currently using them to pull the Panasoinc Plasmas primaries into P3 color space.

This blackmagic box looks very interesting, is there any reason you couldn't use this for HT needs to correct color inacuracies in our home theater projectors? Would this work with DLP?

The Radience is not a professional LUT box. IMO, it's a consumer toy for playing with color gamut in an HT enviornment. You have to be able to download LUTs to the box and I don't really see a way to do that nor do I see what file types it can accept.

Does this mean that its possible that the RSVP2 does a better job than the Radiance... not counting the one size fits all thing? I know we're talking more about a professional setting (don't want to embarrass myself:o). Just curious.

...it's dead on, done properly with a true 3D LUT in linear colorspace, primaries and secondaries spot on.

I'm really curious about all this JVC into the studios thing. It's not the first time I've heard of studios thinking about buying a JVC for post-processing work, and I simply don't get it. While I do think that they deliver very good performance for the money in a home theatre, provided you're not too demanding about color accuracy, I just don't see how you could defend the use of it for professional color evaluation purposes. The primary issue is one thing, but have you seen a JVC (or any LCOS based device) with 500 hours on it? You may be able to calibrate it frequently to get the white balance right at the point you're measuring, but as it ages the white balance uniformity becomes an issue, if you want to do serious work with it.

What you want is a Samsung SPA-800. Color accuracy is specifically what it was designed to do, and while overall performance is always debatable (contrast levels etc), it shows you the detail of the source material like no other projector I have seen (in a comparable price range). On top of that, it is very fast to calibrate, which makes it perfect for professional use.

I fully understand why people are so happy with the JVC's, and I have several very happy customers who own JVC projectors that I sold them - it's not like I'm bashing JVC or anything, I just don't think it's the right product for that kind of application, CMS or not.

Fortunatly there is a good selection of low cost tools from www.blackmagic-design.com. They make a HDSDI LUT box with DVI for $800. We are currently using them to pull the Panasoinc Plasmas primaries into P3 color space.

Could you be a little bit more specific which 'tool' you are referring to? I am looking for an affordable tool that does nothing but primary color correction for quite some time now. All solutions so far (like the Radiance) are 'overkill' so to speak, they offer many things you do not need and you have to pay for.

Thanks!

The primary issue is one thing, but have you seen a JVC (or any LCOS based device) with 500 hours on it? You may be able to calibrate it frequently to get the white balance right at the point you're measuring, but as it ages the white balance uniformity becomes an issue, if you want to do serious work with it.
.

This is easily within the capabilities of a professional closed loop calibration system. If the whitepoint of the bulb drops too low , the price involved in replacing it are trivial for a professional DI house: they probably spend more on coffee and water on a weekly basis.

Could you be a little bit more specific which 'tool' you are referring to?

I am guessing he means this: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hdlink/

Looks nice, but if that is the case, the SDI input limits usability for HT purposes.

Looks nice, but if that is the case, the SDI input limits usability for HT purposes.

Yes thanks. So in addition one would need an SDI/HDMI converter (there is no SDI/DVI as I can see) for 495, still makes it an interesting deal!

Yes thanks. So in addition one would need an SDI/HDMI converter (there is no SDI/DVI as I can see) for 495, still makes it an interesting deal!

Then we still need to know at least if HDCP behaves well in this setup (apparently not) and how to create 3D LUTs. (I am sorry that this thread is being interfered by non professionals.)

This is easily within the capabilities of a professional closed loop calibration system. If the whitepoint of the bulb drops too low , the price involved in replacing it are trivial for a professional DI house: they probably spend more on coffee and water on a weekly basis.

Yes, but I'm talking about uniformity of the panel, not aging of the bulb.

Yes, but I'm talking about uniformity of the panel, not aging of the bulb.


Even on a professional display you don't expect accuracy outside the central portion of the screen.

You seem to be missing the point I've seen at least 2 HD100s in DI suites (albeit the smaller less costly ones: both were grading motion picture films in film colorspace). The projector itself in this case is primarily to give the client a better idea of what the overall image will look like on the big screen , slight innacuracy is fine ( even the DP100 is slightly off in saturated reds) as long as the overall image is referentially consistent. The grader will usually have another monitor that is more accurate overall on the workstation and if required they can also grade by number.

Then we still need to know at least if HDCP behaves well in this setup (apparently not) and how to create 3D LUTs. (I am sorry that this thread is being interfered by non professionals.)


Literatur is a bit sketchy : it comes with its own software but it seems to be a little ambiguous if it actually provides profiling and LUT generation ( I suspect not given that even low end profile based calibration systems are about the same price as the entire unit. Then again the only other hardware unit of this type I'm familiar with is $10000 but it does handle DVI.

Edit : just had another look and it looks as if there is no automated LUT generation built into the software. What you'd have to do is meter the screen with suitable test patterns and make adjustments interactively to the software: no great hardship I guess. Or you have another LUT building software that outputs LUTS in a compatable format. ( they all do .txt at a pinch)

If you were using it with an HTPC you could turn off HDCP with anydvd HD.
Seems you could get a cheap hdmi to sdi convertor for $495 and use it with the pro model.
Its a little ambiguous as to the formats it actually supports in terms of 1080p and color standards ( no mention of rec.709).

Does this mean that its possible that the RSVP2 does a better job than the Radiance... not counting the one size fits all thing? I know we're talking more about a professional setting (don't want to embarrass myself:o). Just curious.

Is there any measured output data for the RSVP2 comparing native and custom gamut ?

D

You seem to be missing the point I've seen at least 2 HD100s in DI suites (albeit the smaller less costly ones: both were grading motion picture films in film colorspace).

Out of interest what companies are using the HD100 in their DI suites that you mention above ?

D

I am guessing he means this: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hdlink/

Looks nice, but if that is the case, the SDI input limits usability for HT purposes.

But after looking into the functionality, I am still worried: Can this thing really correct the primaries or does it only do custom Gamma (which we do not need at all, of course, as the HD100 already has it).:confused::confused:

Out of interest what companies are using the HD100 in their DI suites that you mention above ?

D

Sorry won't say . I've seen them at 2 seperate ones ( and they are the big boys). They use(d) about 3 or 4 HD10ks in 2k viewing suites at Cinesite.

But after looking into the functionality, I am still worried: Can this thing really correct the primaries or does it only do custom Gamma (which we do not need at all, of course, as the HD100 already has it).:confused::confused:


The 3d lut functionality on the pro model would infer gamut control.

No digital input and no HDCP make this Black Magic solution a deal killer for me. This is supposedly a "professional" product. Are professionals still using analog inputs? You can get good correction results with a Lumagen HDP or HDQ for around the same money and not deal with these compromises right off the bat.

No digital input and no HDCP make this Black Magic solution a deal killer for me. This is supposedly a "professional" product. Are professionals still using analog inputs? You can get good correction results with a Lumagen HDP or HDQ for around the same money and not deal with these compromises right off the bat.

It has an SDI input. HDCP doesn't really figure in the professional market.
I've not used it myself and cannot comment as to how professional it is. It seems like it could offer a very good reasonably priced solution but I'd need to find out a few things first.

The Radience is not a professional LUT box. IMO, it's a consumer toy for playing with color gamut in an HT enviornment. space.
That does not make it a toy, just designed for that purpose and not necessarily another. It works!

Seems that the HDlink pro can take 3dluts from third party profiling systems but its restricted to the formats it supports . I think that cinecube ( comes with cinespace) can write out LUTs in a format that the HDlink can use. The bad news is that whilst cinespace is relatively inexpensive its still somewhat steeper than your average home cinema fan will want to pay.

However I would guess manually adjusting the HDlink pro whilst metering the screen would work well enough.

Edit: cineCube definitely supports the right LUT formats for the HDlink pro (looks like cineCube supports them all!). So in theory you would profile the projector using cinespace ( cineprofiler) and then create a new LUT that was based on the projector profile and any target colorspace you want to use ( rec.709 or a print film) . Then load the new lut into the HDlink pro and you should then have a display that is pretty accurate for your desired colorspace.

For the original poster . If your DI software supports 3dluts ( they all do) like I said you don't need the offboard hardware solution and can instead build the LUTs the same way and apply them in the software itself : if the software lets you use multiple target LUTs then probably all you do is load the display profile and pick and choose what colorspace you punch in as required.

No digital input and no HDCP make this Black Magic solution a deal killer for me. This is supposedly a "professional" product. Are professionals still using analog inputs? You can get good correction results with a Lumagen HDP or HDQ for around the same money and not deal with these compromises right off the bat.

Ah, HDSDI is a digital input! The origional poster was asking about a low cost DI display system. DI is not Home Theater. DI facilities don't care about HDCP. So no, the Black Magic box is not suitable for home theater usage but that wasn't what the poster asked for either. Likewise the Radiance is not suitable for a professional setup. Calibration on the production side is not specifically about making good images. The primary reason for calibration is tracable and repeatable images no matter how good or bad they look.

It is also correct on the Black Magic product that LUTs must be built based on calibration data and you must have the software tools to do the math (Microsoft Excell can actually be used for simple 1D LUTs). Of course you need to know what you are doing. However most DI operations either have on staff or access to a consultant to do these tasks.

Again the origional poster inquired about a DI application, not getting the best image from an HT.

It is also correct on the Black Magic product that LUTs must be built based on calibration data and you must have the software tools to do the math. Of course you need to know what you are doing. Howevber most DI operations either have on staff or access to a consultant to do these tasks.

Again the origional poster inquired about a DI application, not getting the best image from an HT.


i don't know about that . I'm pretty sure you can manualy adjust the hdlink without resorting to automated LUTs. It may be a case of build lut in software , apply it to box , see what result is , retweak lut and rinse and repeat but the literature does make it sound as if you can interactively tweak the hardware.

This would be fine : same procedure as the Radiance setup albeit you might have more control with the HDlink (without the scaling and deinterlacing capabilities of the radiance obviously)

Ah, HDSDI is a digital input! The origional poster was asking about a low cost DI display system. DI is not Home Theater. DI facilities don't care about HDCP. So no, the Black Magic box is not suitable for home theater usage but that wasn't what the poster asked for either. Likewise the Radiance is not suitable for a professional setup. Calibration on the production side is not specifically about making good images. The primary reason for calibration is tracable and repeatable images no matter how good or bad they look.

It is also correct on the Black Magic product that LUTs must be built based on calibration data and you must have the software tools to do the math (Microsoft Excell can actually be used for simple 1D LUTs). Of course you need to know what you are doing. However most DI operations either have on staff or access to a consultant to do these tasks.

Again the origional poster inquired about a DI application, not getting the best image from an HT.

You're right. I looked at the specs very quickly.

You're also right about what the OP is interested in. I went a bit off topic because I was interested in the device for a minute.