Hi all.

I recently received a little unexpected cash and have been thinking about a sub upgrade. Any advice or suggestions appreciated based on the information below.

Current Sub Paradigm PW2200 v1.
Speakers Monitor 7 front, CC370 Center Mini Monitor Rear
Receiver Denon 3808 (front biamped)

Room is a basement room roughly 16 by 12 with 7 foot ceilings.

Use is 90% HT/TV/PS3 I am not a critical music listener.

Budget is aprox $1500 Canadian. $1K from my windfall plus whatever the sale of my Pw2200 will net.

The size of the sub is not really an issue. I will probably place it in the corner of the room along the front as its seemed to work well. I do not care about looks. Its my HT room and WAF is not in issue. Tube or box subs are fine. I would prefer not to spend money on a miniaturized sub but to get best bang for buck rather than pay for the sub to be small. I am nit a DYI guy so although I know that can be bang for buck its not for me.

Important consideration is that I am in Nova Scotia Canada. The $1500 would include shipping and any applicable tax/duty so this may limit some options that you good folks in the US have.

I don't feel there is a great deal of selection locally that will give me great upgrade for the $. A used Servo 15 might do the trick but in order to find one I'd have to ship it making it too costly.

Locally I have Paradigm (A newer PW series won't be enough of an upgrade and a Servo or Sig series is out of budget), Energy, Klipsch, PSB as the higher end alternatives.

Sonic Boom Audio has a special on the PB12-Plus/2 and I could have one delivered to my door for less than $100 over budget but even though the size isn't really a concern I'm worried that it might be overkill for my room (maybe not?) the only other SVS offering they have I think would be an upgrade in my budget might be a 20-39PC-Plus Cylinder Subwoofer for 1K. Really not sure (and advice would be great) if the extra $300 for the PB12-Plus 2 would be worth it or if this cylinder sub would be a big improvement over my Pw2200.

So please give me some suggestions. Thanks

Hi all.

I recently received a little unexpected cash and have been thinking about a sub upgrade. Any advice or suggestions appreciated based on the information below.

Current Sub Paradigm PW2200 v2.
Speakers Monitor 7 front, CC370 Center Mini Monitor Rear
Receiver Denon 3808 (front biamped)

Room is a basement room roughly 16 by 12 with 7 foot ceilings.

Use is 90% HT/TV/PS3 I am not a critical music listener.

Budget is aprox $1500 Canadian. $1K from my windfall plus whatever the sale of my Pw2200 will net.

The size of the sub is not really an issue. I will probably place it in the corner of the room along the front as its seemed to work well. I do not care about looks. Its my HT room and WAF is not in issue. Tube or box subs are fine. I would prefer not to spend money on a miniaturized sub but to get best bang for buck rather than pay for the sub to be small. I am nit a DYI guy so although I know that can be bang for buck its not for me.

Important consideration is that I am in Nova Scotia Canada. The $1500 would include shipping and any applicable tax/duty so this may limit some options that you good folks in the US have.

I don't feel there is a great deal of selection locally that will give me great upgrade for the $. A used Servo 15 might do the trick but in order to find one I'd have to ship it making it too costly.

Locally I have Paradigm (A newer PW series won't be enough of an upgrade and a Servo or Sig series is out of budget), Energy, Klipsch, PSB as the higher end alternatives.

Sonic Boom Audio has a special on the PB12-Plus/2 and I could have one delivered to my door for less than $100 over budget but even though the size isn't really a concern I'm worried that it might be overkill for my room (maybe not?) the only other SVS offering they have I think would be an upgrade in my budget might be a 20-39PC-Plus Cylinder Subwoofer for 1K. Really not sure (and advice would be great) if the extra $300 for the PB12-Plus 2 would be worth it or if this cylinder sub would be a big improvement over my Pw2200.

So please give me some suggestions. Thanks

The Servo 15 and the SVS PB12-Plus/2 are very different. The Servo is designed to minimize distortion, while the Plus/2 is designed more for maximum output. Not that the Plus 2 isn't pretty clean.

If you want to feel pressure waves, the Plus/2 is a better way to go. The Servo is a better choice for serious music listeners, but can't quite keep up with the Plus/2 for movies and games.

I would think that you want to experience a big difference. The Plus/2 will give you the biggest difference.

Thanks as I said I don't think a Servo 15 is in the cards. Used they are listing for about $800 and shipping one (there aren't any used ones in Nova ScotiA) would push the price of a used sub upin the $1k plus mark which I don't think I want to do.

The SVS subs are one option that caught my attention especially with the special but given the limited chance I have to compare anything better to my PW 2200 I'm looking for any suggestions of any subs I may have overlooked. Sonic boom only sells a limited # of SVS models.

The SVS subs are one option that caught my attention especially with the special but given the limited chance I have to compare anything better to my PW 2200 I'm looking for any suggestions of any subs I may have overlooked. Sonic boom only sells a limited # of SVS models.
I have had a variety of SVS, Axiom, Velodyne. Paradigm subs. Compared to my old PW2200 the PB12-Plus 2 was better and had very good output, but its not tight and refined like my current PB13U [above your budget]. I cant recommend the PB13U enough, its been an excellent sub. Perhaps Sonic may even have B stock?

John

I'm in Toronto and am selling dual JBL L8400's. $745- for the pair. Let me know in PM if you're interested. They will rock a room that size.

There is a mirage BPS-400 for sale on Canuckaudiomart.ca
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/94537-mirage_bps400__400_watt_bipolar_sub/
and while I've never heard this sub personally it is still on my shortlist, and I've had many trusted audiophile friends tell me that it is an exceptional sub for music and HT. Price is rite, and its in NS!

My friend Eric had the bps-400. Really old, no output or extension compared to current subs.

There is a mirage BPS-400 for sale on Canuckaudiomart.ca
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/94537-mirage_bps400__400_watt_bipolar_sub/
and while I've never heard this sub personally it is still on my shortlist, and I've had many trusted audiophile friends tell me that it is an exceptional sub for music and HT. Price is rite, and its in NS!

Thanks for finding this but upon research there is little to recommend this sub. The design is 10 years old and while there are often older components that work well I have a hard time thinking that a 10 year old sub design can compete with a more modern one especially one. If it was "really good" I think there would have been some hype over the last 10 years. I found posts comparing this sub to my PW 2200 version 1 and it doesn't sound like the kind of leap I want. But once again thanks for finding something local much appreaciated.

My choices would be the MFW-15 or the Epik line, the Castle would be sure to kick some serious arse, shipping to NS is gonna kill you either way.

Call up Av123 and get a shipping quote and an ETA...they have a big back order.

Thanks to some suggestions I think I'm starting tonarrow it down.

20-39PC-Plus Cylinder (design might be getting up in age and not sure if it will give me the improvment I want)
PB12-Plus 2 Clearout pricing but its at the top of my bidget and its huge (which doesn't matter that much but still)
Epik Castle - Waiting for reply from Epik on the price with shipping to Canada but I'm hoping it comes in around $1200 shipped (plus tax and brokerage) so within budget.

I eliminated some suggestions despite the fact they are good subs.

PB 13 Ultra way overbudget
MFW -15 wait times way too long
Elemental Designs -Too many reports of issues

Any thought on the 3 posibilites or others I may have missed

i would check Ed design , they have some fantastic subs, i am from manitoba and ordered one from them.

If you are looking for a Canadian option see Funky Waves Audio (http://www.funkywaves.net)

If you are looking for a Canadian option see Funky Waves Audio (http://www.funkywaves.net)

PM Sent like to find out more.

Perhaps you can take a look at the subs available from Hsu Research.

http://www.hsuresearch.com


Ddavidson

Perhaps you can take a look at the subs available from Hsu Research.

http://www.hsuresearch.com


Ddavidson

Thought about it but I'm seeing reports of very high shipping costs for HSU and the lack of Canadian dealer is a concern.

I will put it into consideration and get a quote from HSU to see how the cost for comperable performance to an Epik Castle comes in at.

Thought about it but I'm seeing reports of very high shipping costs for HSU and the lack of Canadian dealer is a concern.

When they sold here I had a VTF3,but now with the lack of a local dealer any dramas mean being forced to deal with the USA. Freight costs and customs issues added to me eliminating them as a viable alternative for a Canadian. At least with SVS they have Sonic to take care of local issues.

John

When they sold here I had a VTF3,but now with the lack of a local dealer any dramas mean being forced to deal with the USA. Freight costs and customs issues added to me eliminating them as a viable alternative for a Canadian. At least with SVS they have Sonic to take care of local issues.

John

Well I sent email requests to Epik, HSU and Funk Wave. (I already know what Sonicboom can offer for an SVS from their site)

HSU responded with this VTF3-MK3 $382.36
VTF3-HO $442.08
Turbo $146.35 its doesn't say if it includes tax but the prices would break down like this

VTF3-HO 810 (sale) 442.08 shipping duty 1252 (1414 if it needs tax)

VTF3-HO w turbo 999 + $442.08 +147 (which I think is ridiculous considering the turbo itself only add 190) 1588 (1794 if it needs tax)

So I'm looking at roughly the same price as buying an SVS PB13 Ultra from a Canadian dealer but HSU has this to say
Customer is responsible for International shipping for warranty service. That alone kills it for me. The thought of paying big bucks to ship it if I have a warranty issue is a no no.

I have crossed ED subs of my list because of reported amp issues (I know they are isolated but once again shipping across borders for repair is a no no) and long wait times.

I think I'm narrowed down to either getting a smaller sub like the SVS 20-39 PC-Plus and choosing between that or an equivalent from Funky Waves

or if I feel I need to go bigger a larger model from Funky Waves vs the PB12-Plus/2 . The shipped landed price would likely be equal but the Funky Waves sub choices would perform closer to an ultra so I think I know which way I am leaning.

Might have to start another thread with a room diagram to get advice on how much sub I really need for this room.

So I'm looking at roughly the same price as buying an SVS PB13 Ultra from a Canadian dealer but HSU has this to say
Customer is responsible for International shipping for warranty service. That alone kills it for me. The thought of paying big bucks to ship it if I have a warranty issue is a no no.

Total madness. I questioned them on this but Hsu told me that they are a USA company and prefer to deal with USA customers,which is why they stopped selling to their Canadian dealer. Its almost like if your not in the USA we are not interested unless you pay a whole lot more. Crazy thing was that I got my local VTF-3 for the same price as a USA customer and had local warranty backup. We definitely got screwed out of the Hsu picture. Having Sonic selling SVS will give you peace of mind by offering support service on an excellent product.

John

Toolatecrew,
I pm'd you back about Funkywaves. I'd go with something from them. They can do anything you want. No one else will have exactly the sub you do if you get something custom. You can do some damage with $1500CN. I'd have to believe that an FW15.3 would put a smile on your face.

Toolatecrew,
I pm'd you back about Funkywaves. I'd go with something from them. They can do anything you want. No one else will have exactly the sub you do if you get something custom. You can do some damage with $1500CN. I'd have to believe that an FW15.3 would put a smile on your face.

Thanks thinking very seriously about a 15.3 now. I sent Nathan some more email with a room diagram to see what he thinks is needed and what configuration/dimensions would be best. I have a projection screen 28 inches off the floor so if I go tube I am much more limited in where I can locate (becuase of height) If I go box then that limits my height to 27/28 inches. The 15.3 is 24 inches cubed. So it may do the trick getting excited about this now with the thought of something made just for me and for my needs. Don't know if the wife and kids will be quite as excited when things start falling off shelves.

I have the same set of speakers and the similar room size (14LX12wX9h) with a PW2100. My use is also the same as yours HT, gaming and TV. I find the PW2100 to be quite a good match as the bass doesn't take over whatever else is going on in the scene. I'll be curious to see your reaction to a much larger sub and how well it plays with the Monitor 7 system.

Total madness. I questioned them on this but Hsu told me that they are a USA company and prefer to deal with USA customers,which is why they stopped selling to their Canadian dealer. Its almost like if your not in the USA we are not interested unless you pay a whole lot more. Crazy thing was that I got my local VTF-3 for the same price as a USA customer and had local warranty backup. We definitely got screwed out of the Hsu picture. Having Sonic selling SVS will give you peace of mind by offering support service on an excellent product.


Yes, I agree. The new ULS15 sub could have been my next sub, but seeing these shipping costs, and the issue of warranty returns, that rules them out for me. Too bad, the ULS would have been a good deal but not if it's going to cost me $2K to get one.

Yes, I agree. The new ULS15 sub could have been my next sub, but seeing these shipping costs, and the issue of warranty returns, that rules them out for me. Too bad, the ULS would have been a good deal but not if it's going to cost me $2K to get one.
Interesting new sub. I too would have liked to try one up against my PB13U but the company policy is too anti anyone who is not American. Another thing I noticed on their web site is the suspect MSRP:US$1899 price when they only sell it direct at US$1299. I noticed my old VTF-3 had a MSRP:US$999 yet actually sold direct in the USA for US$699 (I paid CAD$700 locally). I guess it makes it look like they are well discounted? All Very Strange.

John

Interesting new sub. I too would have liked to try one up against my PB13U but the company policy is too anti anyone who is not American. Another thing I noticed on their web site is the suspect MSRP:US$1899 price when they only sell it direct at US$1299. I noticed my old VTF-3 had a MSRP:US$999 yet actually sold direct in the USA for US$699 (I paid CAD$700 locally). I guess it makes it look like they are well discounted? All Very Strange.

John

The MSRP is just a number they probably pulled out of the air, since I don't think you can buy these in any non-fictional retail store for that price. It's creative marketing at its best.

I guess even though the ULS seems to be the perfect sub for my needs, I'll never know because from what you and others have said, I don't want to deal with a company who is not going to make it easy for me to be serviced after the sale.

The MSRP is just a number they probably pulled out of the air, since I don't think you can buy these in any non-fictional retail store for that price. It's creative marketing at its best.

I guess even though the ULS seems to be the perfect sub for my needs, I'll never know because from what you and others have said, I don't want to deal with a company who is not going to make it easy for me to be serviced after the sale.

While I agree with folks in Canada that I will never buy an HSU because of the lack of Canadian support/service I don't think its fair to be critical of a company like HSU because of it. They produce from all accounts good products at a fair price. However they are in business to make $ and selling a small volume of subs to Canada and then incurring relatively high costs (shipping, border hassles) etc. to service them is not good for profitability. They don't say "hey we really want to sell to Canadians". They have no infrastructure to see in Canada if someone is willing to go through extra hassell to buy one of their SUBS they will still sell it to you. Just like there are USA only cars like a Scion. Of you want to go through enough hassell you can import one but you do it knowing their is no service.

Its probably true they don't "care" that they are limiting their Canadian sales, it might even be intentional but its not personal or prejudiced. Its just business. The number of sales they lose is tiny compared to current sales and their profitability % would probably be less on those sales (were they to service the product)

We often get the short end of the stick being a smaller market in Canada. All we can do is continue to support those manufacturers who do sell to us and maybe hope more Canadian sub builders (plug) like Funky Waves are successfully so we have more choices.

My friend Eric had the bps-400. Really old, no output or extension compared to current subs.

I was looking at one of those before I bought the PB13 and was going to recco that one on Canuck. Only saw one or two actual reviews of it (raving about the output and low distortion), but this was from many years ago. Surprised to hear that Jesse!

If you can wait, I'd go for the MFW-15, seems like a killer product for the price. Not sure what the shipping costs would be or how the warranty would work though.

Another alternative would be 2 of the PB12-NSD subs, which would flatten out your in-room response and likely give you more than enough "oomph". Not sure re:shipping costs though. Sonicboom may have some b-stock, who knows. They have the wrong picture of the sub on the website though (they are showing the PB12-Plus or Plus/2?)..

http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/pb12nsd-powered-box-sub-12-nsd-woofer-black-p-6.html

Thank Funkywave option looks interesting, but appears to be an uknown at the moment? Any tests of the product yet?

Oh, and there are some deals on the HSU subs in Ontario on Canuck Audio Mart if oyu want to go used. Gloss black dual VTF3 MKII's for $1,000 plus shipping, seems like a pretty good deal.

Hmmm ... that Funkywave option looks more and more interesting (seems to be a large fan base at the Shack ...).

I too would have recommended dual PB12-nsd's, they would have given you a smoother room response but the idea of a custom build is intriguing.

If you can wait, I'd go for the MFW-15, seems like a killer product for the price. Not sure what the shipping costs would be or how the warranty would work though.

Another alternative would be 2 of the PB12-NSD subs, which would flatten out your in-room response and likely give you more than enough "oomph". Not sure re:shipping costs though. Sonicboom may have some b-stock, who knows. They have the wrong picture of the sub on the website though (they are showing the PB12-Plus or Plus/2?)..

http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/pb12nsd-powered-box-sub-12-nsd-woofer-black-p-6.html

Thank Funkywave option looks interesting, but appears to be an uknown at the moment? Any tests of the product yet?

My sub won't ship till August so a wait of about a month wasn't the end of the world but MFW 15s may be running more than a month behind. I did a quick gusstimate and an MFW 15 with shipping and Tax would be about $200 less than I may spend. Add any duty or brokerage and the subs are priced very close to my door. Its certainly a worthy sub to consider but becomes as always less attractive in Canada becuase of pricing. Despite a long warranty (3 years) I would always have a concern becuase of lack of a local dealer. AV123 has talked about a Canadian distribution center but they are not there yet. I wouldn't say this about most of their products but I'm also a little concerned about the build quality becuase of a fairly new factory in Columbia and the huge demand to fill backorders. They may be overstretched. It is a fine sub and if anything unfroseen were to happen (some kind of natural disaster :-() I'd have to consider it as a fallback.

If they had a Canadian distributor even iwth a month or 2 wait I think things would be different.

As for Dual PB12-NSD s. I never considered that and now that I look I know why:1. Lets just say buying 2 of those with delivery and tax would take me over budget. In fact 2 Pb12s NSDs are within spitting difference of a 13 Ultra. 2. The PB12-NSD is a very good sub but its not close to being a quantum leap over my PW2200. Might it be better? Sure Would I or anyone else go WOW that's much better? Doubt it. So that's a lot of $ to spend for not much improvment. I could get 95=99%of the improvment just by searching for a used PW2200 to add for 1/4 of the cost. 3. Dula subs would limit my placment option very severly. The curse of a relativley small romm with a projection screen and an "office" in the corner.

I have to admit at first I was nervous of an "unkown" company. But having seen some of the custom products they have built posted on the this forum and others and the testing and wealth of technical knowledge Nathan has I was more convinced. All these internet direct suppliers depend on either word of mouth or once ina while magazine tests since they have no dealers. Being low volume and relativley new I'm expecting to benift from this becuse my review and experience could be a real positive or negative to their future. I know they want to have their customers rave about the experience so that others will come.

I wouldn't worry about service from AV123, thats what they are known for. Unless the thing is destroyed on arrival and even if it is they will send you another one, Yellow Freight is very good and the boxes are strapped to a pallet which reduces the chance of mishaps. My rockets arrived on schedule and in perfect condition.

As far as warranty work, lets say your amp dies, call them up, they diagnose and bam, new amp plate is in the mail. Same with the driver etc.

I have to admit at first I was nervous of an "unkown" company. But having seen some of the custom products they have built posted on the this forum and others and the testing and wealth of technical knowledge Nathan has I was more convinced. All these internet direct suppliers depend on either word of mouth or once ina while magazine tests since they have no dealers. Being low volume and relativley new I'm expecting to benift from this becuse my review and experience could be a real positive or negative to their future. I know they want to have their customers rave about the experience so that others will come.

Just wanted to add, FunkyWaves audio isn't nearly as much of an "unknown" company in the DIY section. They're more focused on custom subwoofers though which is why there isn't as much discussion about them in this area.

Some of you guys might not have seen this stuff if you don't go to the DIY section. Here's what Funkywaves built for me. Should give you an idea of the quality and what's possible.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff260/Antikythera/bracing-2.jpg

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff260/Antikythera/IMG_2511small-1.jpg

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff260/Antikythera/IMG_2574small.jpg

Decsion is made. I put a deposit on an FW 15.1 to be delivered around mid August. You guys should feel special since you know..my wife doesn't yet. I hope to get 100% (or more) of the performance of a PC Ultra at 80% of the delivered price. The only regret is that ny room just doesn't have many placement options that would have allowed me to go with a beutiful custom made and unique to me box sub. I'm sure I would have enjoyed showing it off and bragging about it. Now I'll just have to settle for wowing people with the sound. I promise to post pictures and a review upon delivery.

The MSRP is just a number they probably pulled out of the air, since I don't think you can buy these in any non-fictional retail store for that price. It's creative marketing at its best.

I guess even though the ULS seems to be the perfect sub for my needs, I'll never know because from what you and others have said, I don't want to deal with a company who is not going to make it easy for me to be serviced after the sale.
Thats what I though. Just a $$$ number pulled out of the air to make it look like Hsu cut heaps off the normal price. When Hsu had a canadian dealer SVS did not,there was no way in hell I would buy the SVS without local service. I was surprised when the situation reversed and I could not try the new vtf-3ho. I am very happy with the PB13U and the security of local service. I had some Axioms which where good but the PB13U is a big step up.

John

While I agree with folks in Canada that I will never buy an HSU because of the lack of Canadian support/service I don't think its fair to be critical of a company like HSU because of it. .

Yeah I am not blaming Hsu...but that's their policy and it's understandably fair for them. My desire to not buy from them is my policy, not out of spite or anything. It's like companies that only ship via UPS Ground, I won't buy from them period due to brokerage fees UPS charge.